WEBVTT - Generated by AI 00:00:00.270 --> 00:00:03.350 Something is changing in our country, and most 00:00:03.350 --> 00:00:12.589 people feel it before they can explain it. Hi 00:00:12.589 --> 00:00:15.490 all, I'm Steve Bunnell. I'm here today with Ken 00:00:15.490 --> 00:00:19.929 Weinstein on the Steady State Sentinel podcast. 00:00:20.030 --> 00:00:23.469 We're here today to talk about the ideals of... 00:00:24.109 --> 00:00:26.710 Federal prosecution, and we're going to use a 00:00:26.710 --> 00:00:30.489 legendary federal prosecutor and former FBI director 00:00:30.489 --> 00:00:34.689 by the name of Bob Mueller as an example of some 00:00:34.689 --> 00:00:37.030 of those ideals. There's been a lot of discussion 00:00:37.030 --> 00:00:41.609 lately about the role of federal prosecutors 00:00:41.609 --> 00:00:44.929 and the appropriate exercise of discretion by 00:00:44.929 --> 00:00:47.490 federal prosecutors. And so we thought we would 00:00:47.490 --> 00:00:53.039 talk a little bit about that. I think it's fair 00:00:53.039 --> 00:00:56.759 to say that among much of the public, there's 00:00:56.759 --> 00:01:00.380 not a real clear understanding or baseline of 00:01:00.380 --> 00:01:04.060 what ideally we would expect and want from our 00:01:04.060 --> 00:01:07.719 federal prosecutors. And so Ken and I thought 00:01:07.719 --> 00:01:10.739 it would be helpful and interesting, hopefully, 00:01:10.840 --> 00:01:14.700 to talk about that, talk about our experience 00:01:14.700 --> 00:01:20.219 and weave in some. anecdotes and stories about 00:01:20.219 --> 00:01:23.939 somebody we both worked with at various times, 00:01:24.280 --> 00:01:30.219 Bob Mueller. So before we dig in, both Ken and 00:01:30.219 --> 00:01:32.439 I are longtime federal prosecutors or former 00:01:32.439 --> 00:01:36.180 federal prosecutors, but we'll give just a very 00:01:36.180 --> 00:01:38.599 high level sense of where we're coming from in 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:42.480 terms of our background. I'm currently practicing 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:47.500 law in a small firm in D .C. But I spent over 00:01:47.500 --> 00:01:50.420 17 years as a federal prosecutor in the U .S. 00:01:50.420 --> 00:01:54.120 Attorney's Office in D .C. and at Maine Justice, 00:01:54.400 --> 00:01:58.340 including working with Ken and working with Bob 00:01:58.340 --> 00:02:01.579 Mueller. And I served as the criminal chief in 00:02:01.579 --> 00:02:03.420 the U .S. Attorney's Office towards the end of 00:02:03.420 --> 00:02:09.680 my career. And Ken, talk a little bit about your 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:14.169 background. ways that it intersected with DOJ 00:02:14.169 --> 00:02:17.110 and Bob Mueller. Okay. Thanks, Steve. Good to 00:02:17.110 --> 00:02:19.629 be here with you. So just in short, my background 00:02:19.629 --> 00:02:22.409 is I was a federal prosecutor, assistant U .S. 00:02:22.430 --> 00:02:24.129 attorney in two different U .S. attorney's offices, 00:02:24.370 --> 00:02:28.669 both in Southern District of New York and then 00:02:28.669 --> 00:02:31.150 D .C. And in D .C., I was in the homicide section 00:02:31.150 --> 00:02:33.150 for quite a while. And that's where I worked 00:02:33.150 --> 00:02:36.069 with you and with Bob. And then after that, I 00:02:36.069 --> 00:02:40.090 bounced around DOJ. uh was uh remained justice 00:02:40.090 --> 00:02:43.189 for a while um and then went to join baba with 00:02:43.189 --> 00:02:46.009 the fbi i was his general counsel and his chief 00:02:46.009 --> 00:02:48.909 of staff came back i was u .s attorney assistant 00:02:48.909 --> 00:02:51.710 attorney general and all told i think i was in 00:02:51.710 --> 00:02:56.409 doj for about 18 years and enjoyed every minute 00:02:56.409 --> 00:03:02.639 well um I think there are few people that have 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:05.599 had as diverse and remarkable a career as Ken 00:03:05.599 --> 00:03:08.180 Weinstein. So we're very lucky to have his perspectives 00:03:08.180 --> 00:03:11.919 here today. I think one of the topics that we 00:03:11.919 --> 00:03:15.199 want to focus on here is, you know, what makes 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:19.199 the role of a federal prosecutor different from 00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:24.199 other attorney jobs? And this is something that... 00:03:24.599 --> 00:03:27.180 For everybody who becomes a federal prosecutor, 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:29.500 if they didn't know coming in, they certainly 00:03:29.500 --> 00:03:33.060 appreciate it once they take on the job. And 00:03:33.060 --> 00:03:37.500 when they look back on it later, they appreciate 00:03:37.500 --> 00:03:40.439 the difference. And one of the big differences 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:42.539 starts from the fact that the United States is 00:03:42.539 --> 00:03:47.099 not an ordinary client. They are different. Their 00:03:47.099 --> 00:03:50.199 interests are not those of a private party. Their 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:53.419 interests are the public interest. There is a 00:03:53.419 --> 00:03:57.750 mission. to the job. All the people in the office 00:03:57.750 --> 00:04:01.590 have the same client, which is not an experience 00:04:01.590 --> 00:04:05.210 you find in a large law firm, for instance. And 00:04:05.210 --> 00:04:12.169 it's a job that requires you not only to be skilled 00:04:12.169 --> 00:04:16.649 in the law and the sort of technical aspects 00:04:16.649 --> 00:04:21.050 of developing evidence, but it requires you to 00:04:21.050 --> 00:04:23.930 exercise sound discretion. prosecutorial discretion, 00:04:24.290 --> 00:04:27.750 which is a unique thing for a lawyer. You don't 00:04:27.750 --> 00:04:31.290 get to do that in the same way, certainly in 00:04:31.290 --> 00:04:34.629 the private sector. And, you know, there's an 00:04:34.629 --> 00:04:39.170 element of that which involves making sure that 00:04:39.170 --> 00:04:41.550 you're protecting the rights of all the participants 00:04:41.550 --> 00:04:44.329 in the system. You're not just there to win. 00:04:44.649 --> 00:04:47.629 You have a duty to do justice. And part of that 00:04:47.629 --> 00:04:52.240 is to do justice in the right way. It's about 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:55.180 protecting the rights of even the defendant, 00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:58.319 the person you're prosecuting, and the integrity 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:05.180 of the court. So that's some of the sort of high 00:05:05.180 --> 00:05:08.740 -level aspects of what federal prosecutors do 00:05:08.740 --> 00:05:12.519 that I think are perhaps underappreciated but 00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:17.079 really critical to the functioning of a system 00:05:17.079 --> 00:05:21.980 that I think – Most Americans and I think most 00:05:21.980 --> 00:05:24.600 people around the world have grown to have great 00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:27.259 respect for it, which is our federal system and 00:05:27.259 --> 00:05:30.860 our federal criminal system and federal court 00:05:30.860 --> 00:05:32.379 system because they all kind of go together. 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:35.439 Ken, maybe you could talk a little bit about, 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:38.899 you know, kind of where these values and traditions, 00:05:39.139 --> 00:05:42.000 these ideals, where do they come from? Are they 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:46.839 written down? How does one come to learn these 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:51.220 things as a prosecutor? Yeah, it's a good question. 00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:53.019 And the short answer is no, they're not written 00:05:53.019 --> 00:05:56.740 down. But I think you did a good recitation of 00:05:56.740 --> 00:05:59.839 some of the sort of the things that distinguish 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:03.360 being a federal prosecutor from being a lawyer 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:06.639 in any other capacity. I mean, you said you have 00:06:06.639 --> 00:06:09.759 an obligation as a federal prosecutor to protect 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:12.360 the institution of the criminal justice system. 00:06:12.779 --> 00:06:15.319 In other words, your job is not just to win a 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:19.410 case for your client, but. to protect the process 00:06:19.410 --> 00:06:22.410 and make sure that the process is fair to everybody 00:06:22.410 --> 00:06:25.709 and that it's perceived as fair because the criminal 00:06:25.709 --> 00:06:29.990 justice system only works jurors only serve and 00:06:29.990 --> 00:06:33.529 serve responsibly people only trust the verdicts 00:06:33.529 --> 00:06:37.449 and um you know people will only cooperate and 00:06:37.449 --> 00:06:41.629 come testify in the judicial system if they feel 00:06:41.629 --> 00:06:45.310 like that system is fair and as the chief representative 00:06:45.310 --> 00:06:49.079 of the government the one side in a criminal 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:51.459 prosecution the side that's taking action that 00:06:51.459 --> 00:06:55.779 has the power to bring criminal cases it's incumbent 00:06:55.779 --> 00:07:00.740 on you to act in a way that protects that both 00:07:00.740 --> 00:07:03.899 reality and appearance of fairness and so that's 00:07:03.899 --> 00:07:06.279 a sort of an additional obligation that a prosecutor 00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:08.560 has and then you put your finger on another one 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:10.519 which is sort of a sub part of that which is 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:14.339 there's a duality to your obligation as a prosecutor 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:17.759 You have an obligation not only to work as hard 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:21.240 as possible, be as creative and aggressive as 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:26.339 the facts and the law allow in pursuit of a conviction, 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:29.879 but at the same time, you're equally obligated 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:32.259 to protect the rights of the person that you're 00:07:32.259 --> 00:07:34.420 going after, the person on the other side of 00:07:34.420 --> 00:07:36.819 your case, i .e. the criminal defendant. Because 00:07:36.819 --> 00:07:40.040 once again, that system, even if you convict 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:42.490 the person, Even if that person is guilty of 00:07:42.490 --> 00:07:44.370 the crime you charged him with and he's convicted 00:07:44.370 --> 00:07:47.610 of, if you got to that result in an unfair way, 00:07:47.930 --> 00:07:50.870 then that hurts the system, hurts the credibility 00:07:50.870 --> 00:07:55.569 of the system. And so it's an interesting additional 00:07:55.569 --> 00:07:57.970 obligation that one has as a federal prosecutor. 00:07:59.069 --> 00:08:02.209 So sort of back to the question of, you know, 00:08:02.209 --> 00:08:05.230 where does one look to see, okay, how should 00:08:05.230 --> 00:08:08.069 a prosecutor, you know, a young federal prosecutor 00:08:08.069 --> 00:08:10.449 walks in the door, how should he or she act? 00:08:10.589 --> 00:08:14.430 How should one actually carry out those responsibilities? 00:08:15.110 --> 00:08:16.889 And you're right, there's lots of training and 00:08:16.889 --> 00:08:19.470 there are manuals and all that stuff. But the 00:08:19.470 --> 00:08:22.430 way that you learn is you learn by watching those 00:08:22.430 --> 00:08:25.170 people who are ahead of you in the office, who 00:08:25.170 --> 00:08:28.709 are admired and respected and have earned that 00:08:28.709 --> 00:08:30.870 respect because they're doing it the right way. 00:08:31.350 --> 00:08:33.809 And this is just like lots of professions, right? 00:08:33.950 --> 00:08:37.570 I mean, the ideal doctor. Once again, it's not 00:08:37.570 --> 00:08:39.370 written down somewhere. It's the person who has 00:08:39.370 --> 00:08:41.210 all the right skills and talents and all that 00:08:41.210 --> 00:08:44.250 stuff, but also who knows how to conduct himself 00:08:44.250 --> 00:08:49.009 or herself in a way that earns the respect of 00:08:49.009 --> 00:08:52.470 their peers. And so it's the same idea in the 00:08:52.470 --> 00:08:56.110 U .S. Attorney's Office. And so when you sort 00:08:56.110 --> 00:09:00.169 of learn as a prosecutor, you learn by watching 00:09:00.169 --> 00:09:05.169 and people lead by example. And I can think of 00:09:05.169 --> 00:09:07.409 a number of people, you being one that I learned 00:09:07.409 --> 00:09:10.809 from by watching and learned, you know, sort 00:09:10.809 --> 00:09:13.610 of where the lines were, what the, you know, 00:09:13.629 --> 00:09:17.129 when you should concede a point, when you should 00:09:17.129 --> 00:09:20.070 push a point, all those kind of things. And so 00:09:20.070 --> 00:09:23.110 it's really not written down anywhere. And the 00:09:23.110 --> 00:09:26.909 idea, I think the way it works in most prosecutor's 00:09:26.909 --> 00:09:29.009 offices, and frankly, this applies to all federal 00:09:29.009 --> 00:09:31.450 prosecutors, all prosecutors of all types. We're 00:09:31.450 --> 00:09:33.090 talking about federal prosecutors specifically. 00:09:33.629 --> 00:09:36.269 I think the way it works is that you sort of 00:09:36.269 --> 00:09:40.929 learn where the line is. You learn sort of what 00:09:40.929 --> 00:09:43.629 the standard is by watching those people. You 00:09:43.629 --> 00:09:45.889 try to live up to it. And at some point in your 00:09:45.889 --> 00:09:48.289 career, you start to realize that you now have 00:09:48.289 --> 00:09:52.429 an obligation. To pass that standard on, to live 00:09:52.429 --> 00:09:55.129 out that standard in a visible way for the people 00:09:55.129 --> 00:09:56.889 who are younger than you who look up to you. 00:09:57.789 --> 00:10:03.450 I mean, paying it forward is sometimes, you know, 00:10:03.450 --> 00:10:04.909 you get to a certain age. I mean, that's the 00:10:04.909 --> 00:10:10.070 biggest value you've got to contribute. You know, 00:10:10.070 --> 00:10:13.070 one of the things, Ken, I know we both encountered 00:10:13.070 --> 00:10:17.889 at various points in our careers. People who. 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:21.860 Who maybe watch too much TV and embodied qualities 00:10:21.860 --> 00:10:26.519 of a prosecutor that maybe are not admirable 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:29.360 or not part of the finer traditions of the Justice 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:32.980 Department. What are some of the things that 00:10:32.980 --> 00:10:38.320 do not characterize sort of the prosecutor that 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:40.299 should be modeled that you should be modeling 00:10:40.299 --> 00:10:43.700 yourself after? Yeah, look, I think you watch 00:10:43.700 --> 00:10:49.080 TV, you know, see movies and. Lawyers are depicted 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:55.159 a certain way and prosecutors are sort of depicted 00:10:55.159 --> 00:10:58.379 in a way that you sometimes I think that's that's 00:10:58.379 --> 00:11:01.960 not accurate. And one of the things is that the 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:05.019 idea that to be a successful prosecutor, you've 00:11:05.019 --> 00:11:07.019 got to be a showboater. You've got to be sort 00:11:07.019 --> 00:11:09.940 of, you know, over the top, flamboyant in trial, 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:15.090 et cetera, you know, flashy and theatrical. Some 00:11:15.090 --> 00:11:17.190 of our colleagues who are some of the best prosecutors, 00:11:17.429 --> 00:11:19.610 you know, had a theatrical streak in them, no 00:11:19.610 --> 00:11:23.789 question. But that in and of itself is not really 00:11:23.789 --> 00:11:27.389 the currency that makes you a successful prosecutor 00:11:27.389 --> 00:11:31.710 in the long run. Channeling your passion, demonstrating 00:11:31.710 --> 00:11:34.090 that you have that passion so the jurors see 00:11:34.090 --> 00:11:36.350 that you believe what you're saying. Absolutely. 00:11:37.129 --> 00:11:40.009 But the real touchstone of that, the touchstone 00:11:40.009 --> 00:11:43.429 of success in a courtroom is integrity, is having. 00:11:44.080 --> 00:11:47.399 Both, you know, conducting yourself with absolute 00:11:47.399 --> 00:11:49.879 integrity and showing the jurors and showing 00:11:49.879 --> 00:11:52.159 the judge who's making decisions about your case 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:55.440 that you're all about being a straight shooter. 00:11:55.740 --> 00:11:59.440 And so it's less the flash, more the substance 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:02.379 of integrity. Also, you know, oftentimes you 00:12:02.379 --> 00:12:04.679 hear people talk about one loss records, you 00:12:04.679 --> 00:12:07.960 know, that a prosecutor, one X number, you know, 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:12.269 isn't he or she great. Look, you know. I'd love 00:12:12.269 --> 00:12:14.110 to have won every one of my cases. I didn't. 00:12:14.110 --> 00:12:18.190 I lost some cases. But you know what? What's 00:12:18.190 --> 00:12:21.409 more important is if you take the cases that 00:12:21.409 --> 00:12:23.970 are righteous cases, you prosecute them to the 00:12:23.970 --> 00:12:26.230 best of your ability, you do it in a way that's 00:12:26.230 --> 00:12:28.889 fair, that does honor to the system, and then 00:12:28.889 --> 00:12:31.169 the jury renders a verdict, you've done your 00:12:31.169 --> 00:12:34.610 job, you've carried on the trust that your office 00:12:34.610 --> 00:12:36.970 has developed with the system, with the people, 00:12:37.090 --> 00:12:39.730 and the people have spoken. So it's less the 00:12:39.730 --> 00:12:42.840 one loss record. Less the result and more how 00:12:42.840 --> 00:12:46.820 you conducted the process. I remember one of 00:12:46.820 --> 00:12:50.740 the things that used to make me sort of more 00:12:50.740 --> 00:12:55.080 nervous when I was in court than maybe anything 00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:58.799 else was when my peers would come to watch me. 00:13:00.679 --> 00:13:04.279 Because I cared very much about my reputation 00:13:04.279 --> 00:13:08.980 among my peers in some ways more than I did among... 00:13:09.210 --> 00:13:12.289 jurors or other people in the courtroom, because 00:13:12.289 --> 00:13:17.110 those were the people that were assessing me 00:13:17.110 --> 00:13:20.909 sort of against the criteria of, you know, kind 00:13:20.909 --> 00:13:23.190 of an ideal prosecutor. They knew the difference 00:13:23.190 --> 00:13:26.129 between a workhorse and a show horse. And, you 00:13:26.129 --> 00:13:28.230 know, one of the things that we both experienced, 00:13:28.269 --> 00:13:29.809 I think, in the U .S. Attorney's Office in D 00:13:29.809 --> 00:13:33.259 .C. Where prosecutors move around, they work 00:13:33.259 --> 00:13:35.620 a caseload, and then they hand it off to somebody 00:13:35.620 --> 00:13:38.419 else, and they pick up a case from somebody else. 00:13:38.580 --> 00:13:43.120 And so your work is inherited by somebody else, 00:13:43.139 --> 00:13:45.100 and you inherit someone else's work, and you 00:13:45.100 --> 00:13:49.100 get to see whether they left you a well -put 00:13:49.100 --> 00:13:53.820 -together case or the opposite. And that has 00:13:53.820 --> 00:13:57.159 a way of really building a healthy culture because— 00:13:57.690 --> 00:13:59.710 Um, there's nowhere to hide in that. It's not 00:13:59.710 --> 00:14:02.090 about your performance evaluation. It's about 00:14:02.090 --> 00:14:05.690 what your peers think of you in a, in a good 00:14:05.690 --> 00:14:11.149 way. Um, and, uh, yeah, yeah. Reputation and 00:14:11.149 --> 00:14:14.190 reputation, not only for diligence, but as you 00:14:14.190 --> 00:14:18.570 said, candor, um, to the tribunal and to defense 00:14:18.570 --> 00:14:21.190 counsel and to others, but, you know, also that 00:14:21.190 --> 00:14:24.120 reputation. to fulfill your brady obligations 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:26.879 uh which is part of you know making sure everybody's 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:29.639 getting a fair shake in the system the defendant 00:14:29.639 --> 00:14:33.720 has a right to see evidence that could help the 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:37.779 defense um and you've got a right to you got 00:14:37.779 --> 00:14:40.919 an obligation as a prosecutor to share that um 00:14:40.919 --> 00:14:44.559 i remember going through training uh and learning 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:47.529 about There was some question about, well, do 00:14:47.529 --> 00:14:49.950 we really need to turn this or that over? And 00:14:49.950 --> 00:14:52.110 one of the senior prosecutors at the time who 00:14:52.110 --> 00:14:54.929 was doing the training, there's a guy named Dave 00:14:54.929 --> 00:14:58.230 Shurtler, who we both know, said, well, I always 00:14:58.230 --> 00:15:00.370 turn that over. And somebody said, well, do you 00:15:00.370 --> 00:15:02.250 really have to? And he said, that's not the question. 00:15:02.330 --> 00:15:04.649 I feel it's the right thing to do. Maybe I'm 00:15:04.649 --> 00:15:06.629 not going to win as many cases as the next guy, 00:15:06.690 --> 00:15:10.690 but this is the way I work. And I remember thinking, 00:15:10.889 --> 00:15:13.690 you know, if Dave Shurtler does it that way, 00:15:13.769 --> 00:15:17.370 then that's the way I want to do it. And that's 00:15:17.370 --> 00:15:20.250 not written down. That's just the way you learn. 00:15:21.210 --> 00:15:29.730 Good lesson. What about the sort of public posturing 00:15:29.730 --> 00:15:35.909 parts of the job? You know, there are some, again, 00:15:35.990 --> 00:15:39.529 this is sort of maybe from TV. You see a lot 00:15:39.529 --> 00:15:41.590 of prosecutors running out to talk to the press 00:15:41.590 --> 00:15:44.190 about pending cases, about pending investigations. 00:15:45.690 --> 00:15:50.169 Was that something that was sort of regarded 00:15:50.169 --> 00:15:55.889 as a badge of honor and esteem in your experience, 00:15:55.990 --> 00:15:58.870 Ken? Yeah, look, and we'll talk about Bob Mueller 00:15:58.870 --> 00:16:00.789 in a minute, but every time I ended up having 00:16:00.789 --> 00:16:02.470 a press conference or talked to the press throughout 00:16:02.470 --> 00:16:05.450 my whole career, he'd call me and call me a showboater. 00:16:08.490 --> 00:16:11.149 Well, you know, Bob was known for always speaking 00:16:11.149 --> 00:16:14.470 the truth, Ken. Yeah, and not speaking to the 00:16:14.470 --> 00:16:17.740 press. But actually, that was a good lesson that 00:16:17.740 --> 00:16:21.759 it's better. Look, we all like attention and 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:23.899 there is a place for getting the message out 00:16:23.899 --> 00:16:26.379 about good law enforcement work. But at the end 00:16:26.379 --> 00:16:28.779 of the day, what's really important is what happens 00:16:28.779 --> 00:16:31.159 in the courtroom. The fact that the victim's 00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:35.379 family in a murder case feels like their rights 00:16:35.379 --> 00:16:38.500 have been vindicated, that you've fought for 00:16:38.500 --> 00:16:45.649 them, and that you've fought a fair fight. And 00:16:45.649 --> 00:16:48.389 it was a good result. That's more important than 00:16:48.389 --> 00:16:52.250 getting out there and trumpeting the results 00:16:52.250 --> 00:16:54.809 of a particular case. So, yeah, just in terms 00:16:54.809 --> 00:16:57.269 of talking about the things that don't end up 00:16:57.269 --> 00:17:00.009 being sort of universally admired among prosecutors, 00:17:00.169 --> 00:17:02.250 that's one of them. Yeah. No, and I think it's 00:17:02.250 --> 00:17:04.630 important. I mean, we're trying to highlight 00:17:04.630 --> 00:17:08.730 the sort of characteristics and values of sort 00:17:08.730 --> 00:17:11.829 of an ideal. We're not suggesting that everybody. 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:16.000 is at that level. Including us. Including us, 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:19.200 absolutely. And frankly, one of the kind of professional 00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:22.500 conceits of prosecutors is sometimes they can 00:17:22.500 --> 00:17:26.140 be a little self -righteous and, you know, they 00:17:26.140 --> 00:17:31.140 get preachy. And we've all seen that and you 00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:36.500 need to guard against it. It's a job that can't 00:17:36.500 --> 00:17:38.480 be done without some humility. It can't be done 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:43.059 right. Without some humility. And that's an underappreciated 00:17:43.059 --> 00:17:46.259 quality. Sometimes the job teaches you humility, 00:17:46.380 --> 00:17:50.079 too. Well, that's exactly. Yeah, I learned that. 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:53.519 Those are important lessons. So, look, just in 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:55.019 terms of some of just to tick them off, just 00:17:55.019 --> 00:17:57.240 some of the things that Steve, you and I talked 00:17:57.240 --> 00:18:00.500 about this, that would sort of are the qualities 00:18:00.500 --> 00:18:04.000 that we think of, you know, as sort of the ideal 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:08.289 federal prosecutor. You know, obviously. Focus 00:18:08.289 --> 00:18:11.009 on public service over sort of personal gain 00:18:11.009 --> 00:18:13.549 or personal glory. You know, it's not about obviously 00:18:13.549 --> 00:18:15.289 not about making money. It's not about promoting 00:18:15.289 --> 00:18:18.750 yourself. It's about doing the right thing and 00:18:18.750 --> 00:18:21.769 getting justice. I mean, this is you're working 00:18:21.769 --> 00:18:23.970 for the Department of Justice, a federal department 00:18:23.970 --> 00:18:28.069 that in its name has a value. So your job is 00:18:28.069 --> 00:18:31.289 to do everything you can in furtherance of that 00:18:31.289 --> 00:18:36.420 value of justice. um also um you know that being 00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:39.400 even -handed we talked about before how important 00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:42.180 it is that you're protecting everybody in the 00:18:42.180 --> 00:18:44.859 system including your adversary including the 00:18:44.859 --> 00:18:47.160 defendant and that's hard to do sometimes right 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:49.799 because you get into a two -week trial and it's 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:52.579 you know you get your energy going and things 00:18:52.579 --> 00:18:54.700 start getting heated between you and the other 00:18:54.700 --> 00:18:57.440 council let's say which is natural in that kind 00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:00.420 of environment and you can start sort of getting 00:19:00.420 --> 00:19:04.390 angry and passionate and it's really hard so 00:19:04.390 --> 00:19:05.990 once again to your point we're talking about 00:19:05.990 --> 00:19:08.589 the ideal you know we all had to strive to live 00:19:08.589 --> 00:19:11.150 up to that ideal and we sometimes met the standards 00:19:11.150 --> 00:19:14.349 sometimes didn't but you have to sort of park 00:19:14.349 --> 00:19:19.130 your emotions park your your ego and um just 00:19:19.130 --> 00:19:22.970 be objective and just only take positions that 00:19:22.970 --> 00:19:25.250 are based on the facts and the law how about 00:19:25.250 --> 00:19:28.930 politics And you were a U .S. attorney. I'm sure 00:19:28.930 --> 00:19:31.450 you occasionally had members of Congress or other 00:19:31.450 --> 00:19:36.569 political actors try to weigh in on a case. How 00:19:36.569 --> 00:19:39.230 did you deal with that? As with you, because 00:19:39.230 --> 00:19:42.390 you're a longtime federal public corruption prosecutor, 00:19:42.470 --> 00:19:45.789 where politics obviously was right in the middle 00:19:45.789 --> 00:19:48.589 of everything you were doing, it's absolutely 00:19:48.589 --> 00:19:52.829 critical that as the head of any office or anybody 00:19:52.829 --> 00:19:55.589 in an office that You might have a political 00:19:55.589 --> 00:19:58.509 view about things that relate to a case. You 00:19:58.509 --> 00:20:03.130 might have an opinion about, you know, the politics 00:20:03.130 --> 00:20:06.170 of the defendant, what have you. But that's just 00:20:06.170 --> 00:20:08.309 got to be parked outside the door. It's really 00:20:08.309 --> 00:20:13.269 can be hard in some cases. But once federal prosecution 00:20:13.269 --> 00:20:19.049 gets seen, is perceived as being a tool of politics, 00:20:19.329 --> 00:20:22.349 then it loses the trust of the American people. 00:20:22.470 --> 00:20:25.509 So, as you know. For generations, it's always 00:20:25.509 --> 00:20:29.750 been important that DOJ prosecutors make it very 00:20:29.750 --> 00:20:32.869 clear that they're only operating based on the 00:20:32.869 --> 00:20:35.150 law and the facts, and that to the extent that 00:20:35.150 --> 00:20:37.609 they're politicians or politics related to the 00:20:37.609 --> 00:20:40.730 underlying facts of the case, that that has nothing 00:20:40.730 --> 00:20:42.690 to do with the decision -making. Because otherwise, 00:20:42.950 --> 00:20:47.369 once that perception creeps into the system, 00:20:47.549 --> 00:20:50.450 then prosecutorial discretion, the decisions 00:20:50.450 --> 00:20:53.410 that prosecutors make, are going to be subject 00:20:53.410 --> 00:20:58.500 to... to skepticism and criticism as being based 00:20:58.500 --> 00:21:00.740 on things other than law and the facts. Yeah. 00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:04.940 I mean, and as you know, Ken, in the public corruption 00:21:04.940 --> 00:21:08.119 arena in particular, but also obviously in many 00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:10.980 other areas, the very fact of an investigation 00:21:10.980 --> 00:21:14.339 can really have an impact on somebody's life. 00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:20.100 And so there's this concept of predication. in 00:21:20.100 --> 00:21:23.259 the prosecutorial world, which is basically you 00:21:23.259 --> 00:21:24.880 have to have a good reason. You need specific 00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:28.480 evidence of a federal crime that warrants further 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:31.140 investigation before you start investigating. 00:21:31.460 --> 00:21:33.220 I mean, this is before you make a decision to 00:21:33.220 --> 00:21:38.799 charge or pursue something to trial. That's also 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:42.559 an important part of discretion. You don't just 00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:47.390 open investigations willy -nilly. Yeah, it's 00:21:47.390 --> 00:21:48.950 important. And that's all part of the training. 00:21:49.029 --> 00:21:51.150 But also, it's one of those things, you know, 00:21:51.150 --> 00:21:53.069 some of those lines are not written down anywhere 00:21:53.069 --> 00:21:56.529 as to what to say and what not to say. And that's 00:21:56.529 --> 00:22:00.210 why it's important having mentors within those 00:22:00.210 --> 00:22:01.990 attorneys, obviously, and leaders who recognize 00:22:01.990 --> 00:22:04.750 how important it is to keep politics out of prosecution. 00:22:05.150 --> 00:22:08.309 And just to sort of tick off the other things 00:22:08.309 --> 00:22:10.930 I think you and I have talked about that sort 00:22:10.930 --> 00:22:14.569 of make the key ingredients of a federal prosecutor. 00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:18.660 Obviously, honesty and integrity, you know, and 00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:22.660 that is so important for the legitimacy of the 00:22:22.660 --> 00:22:25.359 process. But also, frankly, it's what makes you 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:28.000 successful. When you walk into court, so per 00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:30.859 what we were saying earlier, at the end of the 00:22:30.859 --> 00:22:33.299 day, jurors and judges aren't going to give you 00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:35.380 credit for style points. They're not going to 00:22:35.380 --> 00:22:37.700 give you credit for, you know, being flashy. 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:41.039 What matters is that they believe that you're 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:43.319 telling them the truth. And that you're about 00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:46.140 getting to the truth. And if you are that way, 00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:49.480 you convey that, then you're doing your job. 00:22:49.660 --> 00:22:53.400 And so that's why the touchstone for being a 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:55.839 federal prosecutor is having that integrity. 00:22:56.380 --> 00:22:58.859 And then just a couple other things. Obviously, 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:01.400 you know, it's not easy being a federal prosecutor. 00:23:01.559 --> 00:23:04.380 It's a lot of work. You've got to want to do 00:23:04.380 --> 00:23:08.119 it. You've got to have a passion for it. You 00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:10.119 have to care about law enforcement. You have 00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:11.960 to care about public safety. You have to care 00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:17.200 about victims. And, you know, that's what fuels 00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:20.559 you. So you need that fire in the belly. And 00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:23.339 the last thing I think is worth ticking off is 00:23:23.339 --> 00:23:28.079 you have to have respect for the institution. 00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:32.119 You have to care about the institution. By the 00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:34.940 institution, I mean the integrity of the Justice 00:23:34.940 --> 00:23:38.859 Department. uh federal prosecution that's because 00:23:38.859 --> 00:23:42.720 you are you're the one who's helping to either 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:47.640 create or destroy the trust that is you know 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:50.299 the foundation of that system and so you have 00:23:50.299 --> 00:23:53.740 to care a lot about the institution about the 00:23:53.740 --> 00:23:57.740 norms that have developed over decades and centuries 00:23:57.740 --> 00:24:01.279 about how you conduct yourself as a prosecutor 00:24:02.140 --> 00:24:04.220 And you have to care a lot about how the institution 00:24:04.220 --> 00:24:09.859 is perceived by the public, by the courts, because, 00:24:09.980 --> 00:24:12.279 you know, that is your you're going to leave 00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:14.440 that legacy. When you walk out the door, you 00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:17.279 have left the place better or worse off than 00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:22.839 you found. You know, one of the things that I 00:24:22.839 --> 00:24:27.940 always took. I always made time for at the attorney's 00:24:27.940 --> 00:24:30.279 office was to try to always go to as many farewell 00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:32.240 events as possible when people would leave the 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:35.259 office. And I think they're sort of unique things 00:24:35.259 --> 00:24:38.160 because they were an opportunity for people to 00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:41.200 talk about what they valued about the job that 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:46.339 they were leaving. And it was always sort of 00:24:46.339 --> 00:24:50.880 uplifting to hear people talk about what the 00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:55.200 job meant as they were leaving. appreciate things 00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:57.779 and articulate them in ways that sometimes you 00:24:57.779 --> 00:24:59.980 don't see it on a day -to -day basis. It's a 00:24:59.980 --> 00:25:04.220 special job, which I think maybe transitions 00:25:04.220 --> 00:25:08.359 us a little bit to a special person who we both 00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:12.839 work with. And maybe you could talk a little 00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:16.819 bit about how Bob Mueller sort of fits into what 00:25:16.819 --> 00:25:19.619 we're talking about here. Yeah, thank you. When 00:25:19.619 --> 00:25:23.740 we were asked to do this, This podcast, we were 00:25:23.740 --> 00:25:26.380 asked to do it about federal prosecutors and 00:25:26.380 --> 00:25:28.380 then specifically about Bob, and I think that's 00:25:28.380 --> 00:25:30.200 why you and I sort of jumped at this opportunity, 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:32.660 because it's a real honor to talk about Bob. 00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:41.339 Bob passed away this March, and he led a career 00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:44.640 which is both legendary and incredibly impactful. 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:48.700 He'd been a prosecutor out in San Francisco back 00:25:48.700 --> 00:25:52.880 in the 70s. He was in Boston. I think he was 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:54.759 the acting U .S. attorney in Boston, as memory 00:25:54.759 --> 00:25:58.059 serves. He then came down to Maine Justice headquarters 00:25:58.059 --> 00:26:02.119 here in D .C. and worked for the attorney general. 00:26:02.299 --> 00:26:04.220 And then he eventually ended up at the end of 00:26:04.220 --> 00:26:07.079 the George H .W. Bush administration as the assistant 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:09.599 attorney general, Senate -confirmed position 00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:12.500 overseeing the criminal division. So, you know, 00:26:12.500 --> 00:26:15.799 one of the very top three or four positions in 00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:18.339 the whole Justice Department. He then left with 00:26:18.339 --> 00:26:22.940 the change of administration. January 1993, and 00:26:22.940 --> 00:26:25.960 then went to a law firm, very prestigious law 00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:28.980 firm, but didn't remain there very long before 00:26:28.980 --> 00:26:31.460 he decided he had to come back to public service. 00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:37.779 And this was early 95, as I recall. And at that 00:26:37.779 --> 00:26:40.940 time, D .C. was the murder capital of the world, 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:43.720 had more murders per capita here than any other 00:26:43.720 --> 00:26:46.319 city in the country. And it was a tough time 00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:50.279 to be a federal prosecutor. slinging cases left 00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:54.339 and right and a lot of terrified witnesses and 00:26:54.339 --> 00:26:57.519 grieving parents and the like. It was tough. 00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:01.180 Bob decided that's what he wanted to do, even 00:27:01.180 --> 00:27:03.220 though he'd been the number three person at DOJ. 00:27:03.700 --> 00:27:05.559 Calls Eric Holder, our U .S. attorney at the 00:27:05.559 --> 00:27:09.059 time, offers to come in. Eric, you know, asked 00:27:09.059 --> 00:27:11.500 him if he wanted to have some, you know, supervisory 00:27:11.500 --> 00:27:13.460 position. Bob said, no, I just want to be a line 00:27:13.460 --> 00:27:17.299 outside prosecutor. And he came in. and parked 00:27:17.299 --> 00:27:20.039 himself right down the hall from us. And, you 00:27:20.039 --> 00:27:23.480 know, we had a lot of great mentors at that time. 00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:26.740 I mentioned Dave Shurtler and others who were 00:27:26.740 --> 00:27:29.559 tremendous mentors. Bob came in, though, and 00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:32.200 he sort of in many ways set a different standard. 00:27:32.859 --> 00:27:38.619 It really sort of caught our attention. And you, 00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:40.579 as I recall, were one of the first people who 00:27:40.579 --> 00:27:42.940 met with him. And why don't you tell us about 00:27:42.940 --> 00:27:47.819 that? Yeah. I mean, I think it's hard for folks 00:27:47.819 --> 00:27:51.460 who haven't worked within the Justice Department 00:27:51.460 --> 00:27:57.579 to appreciate how sort of strange and unique 00:27:57.579 --> 00:28:01.819 the path from being the assistant attorney general 00:28:01.819 --> 00:28:03.759 of the criminal division of the entire Justice 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:09.119 Department to have had that job and then to go 00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:14.019 back or down the food chain to be a line attorney. 00:28:14.839 --> 00:28:17.819 in the homicide section in the superior court 00:28:17.819 --> 00:28:20.140 divisions, not even in federal court, of the 00:28:20.140 --> 00:28:23.519 U .S. Attorney's Office in D .C. Only somebody 00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:28.480 who is totally devoid of illusions of grandeur 00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:32.119 or ego disease would even think about doing that. 00:28:32.259 --> 00:28:36.259 And Bob was one of those guys. I mean, he took 00:28:36.259 --> 00:28:39.059 over my caseload because I, at that point, had 00:28:39.059 --> 00:28:42.900 been in the homicide section and was... moving 00:28:42.900 --> 00:28:46.920 to a public corruption prosecutorial role and 00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:51.240 um i had i was a fairly junior homicide prosecutor 00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:53.640 i had an interior office didn't even have a window 00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:57.140 um that's what bob got when he showed up he got 00:28:57.140 --> 00:29:00.559 my office he got my caseload um this guy who 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:02.599 used to have three secretaries when he was the 00:29:02.599 --> 00:29:04.119 assistant attorney general of the criminal division 00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:07.900 and In addition to raising questions about whether 00:29:07.900 --> 00:29:11.220 he'd lost his mind to make a move like that, 00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:14.380 it was to me and I think to the others there, 00:29:14.539 --> 00:29:18.200 it was remarkably inspirational. Because here 00:29:18.200 --> 00:29:20.660 was this guy who was saying, what you're doing 00:29:20.660 --> 00:29:26.380 as a line prosecutor in D .C. is sufficiently 00:29:26.380 --> 00:29:32.160 important and rewarding and meaningful that I 00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:35.019 want to give up all the money and all the kind 00:29:35.019 --> 00:29:37.680 of... glory and perks that I might enjoy somewhere 00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:40.039 else and come into the trenches and do the job 00:29:40.039 --> 00:29:44.420 with you. And it made me not want to leave the 00:29:44.420 --> 00:29:47.359 homicide section, frankly, although I had already 00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:51.200 committed to going. It was very clear. The job 00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:53.079 is not about the, you know, that job was not 00:29:53.079 --> 00:29:56.220 about status. It was not about money. And he 00:29:56.220 --> 00:30:01.539 came in, he dug in. I had, you know, some kind 00:30:01.539 --> 00:30:04.900 of. homicide cases from rough parts of town. 00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:07.980 It was Bobo and Reds beefing over sneakers and 00:30:07.980 --> 00:30:12.720 somebody got killed. These were not grand, high 00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:17.220 -profile, transnational crime cases. They were 00:30:17.220 --> 00:30:20.720 just local homicide cases. And Bob was remarkable. 00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:24.779 He stepped right in. He was very excited about 00:30:24.779 --> 00:30:29.740 the transition. And one thing about Bob that 00:30:29.740 --> 00:30:33.220 I noticed early on, I used to talk about this 00:30:33.220 --> 00:30:36.059 when people would interview for the office for 00:30:36.059 --> 00:30:39.059 a job. And I was on the hiring committee for 00:30:39.059 --> 00:30:41.599 many years. And I used to refer to some people, 00:30:41.700 --> 00:30:44.619 some applicants as having, quote, a pronoun problem. 00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:48.140 And the pronoun problem would be when they use 00:30:48.140 --> 00:30:51.400 the word I to talk about things that they had 00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:54.359 done in the past as opposed to we. And I noticed 00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:57.240 that Bob never used the word I. He always used 00:30:57.240 --> 00:30:59.480 the word we when he talked about all these things 00:30:59.480 --> 00:31:03.940 that he had done. And so, you know, Bob didn't 00:31:03.940 --> 00:31:07.779 have a pronoun problem. Bob was about the team. 00:31:08.279 --> 00:31:11.400 Bob was about, you know, he's a Marine running 00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:14.519 to the sounds of gunfire, literally, in the District 00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:17.660 of Columbia. So, anyways, that was, you know, 00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:20.420 and that was a really powerful experience, I 00:31:20.420 --> 00:31:23.680 think, not just for me, but for his colleagues. 00:31:23.900 --> 00:31:27.289 It really sent a message. it did and he you're 00:31:27.289 --> 00:31:28.789 right he never used the word i it was always 00:31:28.789 --> 00:31:31.009 we and that's the way he conducted himself as 00:31:31.009 --> 00:31:33.990 a as a lot of prosecutors his whole time he you 00:31:33.990 --> 00:31:36.130 know went into court with absolute integrity 00:31:36.130 --> 00:31:39.329 and won the affection and admiration of the judges 00:31:39.329 --> 00:31:43.930 um he became you know a go -to person for the 00:31:43.930 --> 00:31:47.670 homicide detectives who got it that he was all 00:31:47.670 --> 00:31:50.849 about um doing the job and doing it well and 00:31:50.849 --> 00:31:55.609 and helping them out um he was became a real 00:31:55.609 --> 00:31:57.890 teammate with everybody in the homicide section. 00:31:58.230 --> 00:32:01.769 And he cared a lot. Here's a guy who was perceived 00:32:01.769 --> 00:32:05.349 as being older, sort of soldierly, and maybe 00:32:05.349 --> 00:32:08.769 stiff in certain ways. And he was anything but. 00:32:08.869 --> 00:32:12.049 He cared about what he was doing. He cared about 00:32:12.049 --> 00:32:14.650 the people who were involved in the cases. And 00:32:14.650 --> 00:32:19.049 I remember, for example, one time we had this 00:32:19.049 --> 00:32:21.910 really incredibly tragic murder at a Starbucks 00:32:21.910 --> 00:32:24.960 in D .C. It happened to be right up near his 00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:26.940 house when he was the chief in the homicide section. 00:32:27.619 --> 00:32:29.680 He got the call, heard the call early in the 00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:31.980 morning. He went to the scene and the three young 00:32:31.980 --> 00:32:34.700 kids who'd been killed in a robbery, a botched 00:32:34.700 --> 00:32:38.819 robbery, were still there on the scene. And he 00:32:38.819 --> 00:32:41.720 was there sort of helping to coordinate things. 00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:45.019 He ended up taking that case on. And he came 00:32:45.019 --> 00:32:47.059 back into my office afterwards. And, you know, 00:32:47.059 --> 00:32:49.019 here's a guy who'd been through Vietnam and been 00:32:49.019 --> 00:32:54.240 shot. uh in combat of vietnam and he was um he 00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:58.240 was really um you know he was really touched 00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:01.619 and upset by what he'd seen about what happened 00:33:01.619 --> 00:33:04.680 to these three young kids and just gave me an 00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:07.400 insight into how much he cared about these cases 00:33:07.400 --> 00:33:10.720 he got it that there are human beings um behind 00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:15.900 these cases uh and he shared that with us you 00:33:15.900 --> 00:33:18.279 know the other prosecutors but also the detectives 00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:21.519 And to that point, we've got a special guest 00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:24.160 I want to mention. You're talking, you know, 00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:28.400 two of us are federal prosecutors, but the people 00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:30.299 who really do the work in these homicide cases 00:33:30.299 --> 00:33:33.400 were the homicide detectives. And it just so 00:33:33.400 --> 00:33:35.259 happens that on the day that Steve and I were 00:33:35.259 --> 00:33:37.660 doing this podcast, an old friend of ours, Guy 00:33:37.660 --> 00:33:41.140 Middleton, who is a homicide lieutenant back 00:33:41.140 --> 00:33:43.319 at the time that Bob served as prosecutor, was 00:33:43.319 --> 00:33:45.880 in town and he was kind enough to join us for 00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:58.900 a few minutes. Okay, Guy, good to see you. How 00:33:58.900 --> 00:34:00.539 are you today? Good to see you. Great. Doing 00:34:00.539 --> 00:34:03.400 fine. Thank you. Thanks so much for joining us. 00:34:04.339 --> 00:34:06.859 As I was telling you, Steve Bunnell and I are 00:34:06.859 --> 00:34:11.099 doing a podcast right now about sort of the ideals 00:34:11.099 --> 00:34:14.739 behind being a federal prosecutor. And one of 00:34:14.739 --> 00:34:17.699 the ways that we're showing those ideals is going 00:34:17.699 --> 00:34:20.139 back and talking about our old friend Bob Mueller. 00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:24.360 With you in town, just by happenstance, the same 00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:26.179 time we were doing this podcast, we thought we 00:34:26.179 --> 00:34:29.000 couldn't pass up the opportunity to have you 00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:32.320 give us a few thoughts about Bob, because I know 00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:35.920 you two work very closely together. We do. So 00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:38.320 first, if you would, just introduce yourself 00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:41.420 and what you did at MPD and the kind of work 00:34:41.420 --> 00:34:44.219 you did with Homicide at UC. Well, first, let 00:34:44.219 --> 00:34:46.760 me thank you for inviting me to the podcast. 00:34:46.900 --> 00:34:51.480 I'm looking forward to... Chipping in where and 00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:56.940 how I can, I'm a native Washingtonian. I did 00:34:56.940 --> 00:35:00.380 29 years on a metropolitan police department. 00:35:00.539 --> 00:35:04.380 About half of those years were spent in the homicide 00:35:04.380 --> 00:35:09.619 branch as a sergeant and then as a lieutenant 00:35:09.619 --> 00:35:14.599 responsible for investigating murders in D .C. 00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:19.340 at what was at the time a very very very high 00:35:19.340 --> 00:35:25.659 level of homicides occurring in dc yeah so take 00:35:25.659 --> 00:35:28.659 us back now i guess that's in the early mid 90s 00:35:28.659 --> 00:35:32.539 and um we had the pleasure of working together 00:35:32.539 --> 00:35:38.139 as did steve and uh and you and um dc had i think 00:35:38.139 --> 00:35:41.460 upwards of 450 murders a year that's right i 00:35:41.460 --> 00:35:44.130 recall you guys were Oftentimes going to five 00:35:44.130 --> 00:35:48.690 murders a night. Yeah, they were nonstop. There 00:35:48.690 --> 00:35:52.750 was no shortage of murder investigations. And 00:35:52.750 --> 00:35:57.630 unfortunately, it was like triage. You had to 00:35:57.630 --> 00:36:01.369 work on the cases that offered the most promise. 00:36:01.610 --> 00:36:06.010 To close the cases, you could and work on the 00:36:06.010 --> 00:36:09.030 other ones at some other time. But there were 00:36:09.030 --> 00:36:14.579 so many murders and they were so frequent. All 00:36:14.579 --> 00:36:18.340 hours of the day, of course, overnight was the 00:36:18.340 --> 00:36:22.300 worst, but evening tour, day tour, it didn't 00:36:22.300 --> 00:36:25.179 matter. They were happening all hours of the 00:36:25.179 --> 00:36:29.960 day and night. And, of course, we had limited 00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:33.440 resources, limited homicide detectives, limited 00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:41.199 forensics examiners, limited morgue pathologists. 00:36:42.250 --> 00:36:45.550 We just did the best we could under the circumstances 00:36:45.550 --> 00:36:51.329 until eventually the murders started to decline. 00:36:52.170 --> 00:36:56.650 Yeah, and thanks to your good work. And a lot 00:36:56.650 --> 00:36:59.469 of the work in terms of solving the murders and 00:36:59.469 --> 00:37:03.469 then convicting those responsible for the murders 00:37:03.469 --> 00:37:05.050 was done in conjunction with the prosecutors 00:37:05.050 --> 00:37:07.329 in the U .S. Attorney's Office and the key team 00:37:07.329 --> 00:37:11.170 players. The teammates were the detective and 00:37:11.170 --> 00:37:14.539 police. officers who were who worked the case 00:37:14.539 --> 00:37:16.599 and the federal prosecutor who was assigned the 00:37:16.599 --> 00:37:20.300 case right that's right yep so you're working 00:37:20.300 --> 00:37:22.139 with a lot of prosecutors along the way dealing 00:37:22.139 --> 00:37:26.619 with this this uh this wave of violence and a 00:37:26.619 --> 00:37:28.400 fellow by the name of bob muller walks through 00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:31.380 the door bob muller shows up in the homicide 00:37:31.380 --> 00:37:35.059 section of the u .s attorney's office and uh 00:37:35.059 --> 00:37:39.280 he made an impression on me as i'm sure he did 00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:44.500 all the other homicide investigators at the time, 00:37:44.659 --> 00:37:49.119 because Bob was just a no -nonsense, straightforward, 00:37:49.820 --> 00:37:55.019 hardworking prosecutor, a public servant. And 00:37:55.019 --> 00:38:00.800 he came into that office looking to understand 00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:06.900 and prosecute these homicide defendants, suspects. 00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:12.260 And with the help of his expertise and the help 00:38:12.260 --> 00:38:16.460 of the homicide detectives who came to trust 00:38:16.460 --> 00:38:22.820 and look up to him, was able to get a lot of 00:38:22.820 --> 00:38:30.000 convictions and shut down a lot of these, some 00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:35.239 of what I would call repeat killers. At the time, 00:38:35.260 --> 00:38:38.019 some people might have labeled them serial killers. 00:38:38.119 --> 00:38:42.420 I don't know what that definition means to people, 00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:46.420 but in a sense, you could say that. We would 00:38:46.420 --> 00:38:51.079 arrest people who may have committed two, three, 00:38:51.139 --> 00:38:54.780 four, five, six murders. Maybe we couldn't pin 00:38:54.780 --> 00:38:57.619 them all on them, but we knew that they more 00:38:57.619 --> 00:39:02.349 than likely had done them. So when Bob walks 00:39:02.349 --> 00:39:05.389 in, you're dealing with a lot of other AUSAs, 00:39:05.489 --> 00:39:08.050 federal prosecutors, who are sort of more like 00:39:08.050 --> 00:39:11.130 me at the time, kind of a youngster, a little 00:39:11.130 --> 00:39:15.269 wet behind the ears, you know, 30 -something 00:39:15.269 --> 00:39:19.070 or whatever. Bob walks in, he's a little different 00:39:19.070 --> 00:39:24.789 cat, right? No question. Bob is clearly older. 00:39:25.480 --> 00:39:28.639 than most of the prosecutors that we had been 00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:31.699 used to working with by at least 10 years, probably 00:39:31.699 --> 00:39:35.659 slightly more. But he was, you could tell he 00:39:35.659 --> 00:39:39.800 was seasoned. He was experienced. He knew what 00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:46.909 he was doing. And a lot of us homicided. detectives 00:39:46.909 --> 00:39:51.090 at the time were, you know, kind of helping to 00:39:51.090 --> 00:39:56.030 train prosecutors and how to go about investigating 00:39:56.030 --> 00:40:01.409 and prosecuting homicide suspects. And we didn't 00:40:01.409 --> 00:40:05.349 need to do that with Bob. Bob needed to understand 00:40:05.349 --> 00:40:09.510 the dynamics of prosecuting murders in Washington, 00:40:09.710 --> 00:40:14.010 D .C., given at the time the record. number of 00:40:14.010 --> 00:40:18.489 murders, but also the way you had to massage 00:40:18.489 --> 00:40:23.610 and work with witnesses who weren't really keen 00:40:23.610 --> 00:40:28.489 on testifying in open court about anything, never 00:40:28.489 --> 00:40:35.420 mind an open murder. That trust starts with the 00:40:35.420 --> 00:40:38.219 detectives, and then the detectives take the 00:40:38.219 --> 00:40:40.960 case once they get an arrest warrant, takes the 00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:43.800 case to the prosecutors, and then you have to 00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:46.980 rebuild that trust and relationship with the 00:40:46.980 --> 00:40:52.219 prosecutors. And Bob never skipped a beat when 00:40:52.219 --> 00:40:57.539 it came to that process. He understood the witness 00:40:57.539 --> 00:41:02.230 position. He understood what it took. to get 00:41:02.230 --> 00:41:05.610 a successful prosecution of the case. And he 00:41:05.610 --> 00:41:10.250 understood how to work with homicide detectives 00:41:10.250 --> 00:41:15.210 who are, I will say, aren't necessarily the easiest 00:41:15.210 --> 00:41:18.130 people to work with when they're trying to get 00:41:18.130 --> 00:41:22.849 a case prosecuted. You guys are tremendous professionals. 00:41:23.030 --> 00:41:26.159 Never worked with anybody who was more... dedicated 00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:29.400 than a homicide detective absolutely um but you 00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:31.599 you know you push your agenda and that's what 00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:34.699 you're supposed to do and um so let me just ask 00:41:34.699 --> 00:41:37.920 you then um he you know he comes in he's obviously 00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:43.400 as i said sort of a different cat um you guys 00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:45.679 are homicide detectives you've got your own ethos 00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:48.480 how did you end up getting along you as a sort 00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:51.019 of the collective of homicide detectives how 00:41:51.019 --> 00:41:52.659 did you end up getting along with bob both as 00:41:52.659 --> 00:41:55.219 a line prosecutor and then when he was the the 00:41:55.219 --> 00:41:58.860 chief of the section. Yeah. I think everybody 00:41:58.860 --> 00:42:02.480 enjoyed working with Bob. Everybody liked Bob. 00:42:02.599 --> 00:42:06.719 Everybody liked his work ethic is what stuck 00:42:06.719 --> 00:42:12.059 out to all of us. He's just full steam ahead. 00:42:13.500 --> 00:42:19.469 You know, they say. Pardon the line, but they 00:42:19.469 --> 00:42:22.170 say you don't join the Marines, you become a 00:42:22.170 --> 00:42:27.829 Marine. And Bob Mueller was definitely, unequivocally, 00:42:27.829 --> 00:42:32.269 a Marine in that office doing the job that he 00:42:32.269 --> 00:42:35.769 was doing, not only as a line prosecutor, but 00:42:35.769 --> 00:42:39.250 also as the chief of the homicide section there 00:42:39.250 --> 00:42:42.309 in the U .S. Attorney's Office. All about business, 00:42:42.590 --> 00:42:47.699 all about... successfully accomplishing the mission. 00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:54.039 And all of us in Homicide appreciated that ethos. 00:42:54.059 --> 00:42:57.340 And, you know, we really, really, really enjoyed 00:42:57.340 --> 00:43:01.239 working with him. The last question, what do 00:43:01.239 --> 00:43:03.840 you think motivated? What drove Bob Mueller? 00:43:04.980 --> 00:43:09.159 Well, I obviously was not a personal friend of 00:43:09.159 --> 00:43:12.639 Bob Mueller. I didn't. hang out with him socially. 00:43:13.019 --> 00:43:16.760 So I can only speak from my perspective. And 00:43:16.760 --> 00:43:20.719 from my perspective, Bob was like a lot of other 00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:24.820 federal prosecutors that I've met. Not all, but 00:43:24.820 --> 00:43:30.349 a lot of them are driven by... doing what's right. 00:43:30.369 --> 00:43:34.349 They're driven by seeing justice done. You got 00:43:34.349 --> 00:43:37.090 to keep in mind, and you might not want me to 00:43:37.090 --> 00:43:39.190 say this, but I'll tell you, you got to keep 00:43:39.190 --> 00:43:42.610 in mind, federal prosecutors could very easily 00:43:42.610 --> 00:43:47.130 be private attorneys somewhere else making a 00:43:47.130 --> 00:43:50.750 whole boatload of money. And when you choose 00:43:50.750 --> 00:43:55.269 to take an oath to be a public servant and serve 00:43:55.269 --> 00:44:00.789 in In this case, in D .C., as a local prosecutor, 00:44:01.309 --> 00:44:05.329 you're not making as much money as you could 00:44:05.329 --> 00:44:08.469 be making if you took your skills somewhere else. 00:44:08.630 --> 00:44:12.469 So it's really a dedication to the work, to the 00:44:12.469 --> 00:44:17.449 job that you're hired to do. And we as detectives, 00:44:17.510 --> 00:44:23.369 of course, you know, we feel that way. But it's 00:44:23.369 --> 00:44:27.730 encouraging and refreshing when you. working 00:44:27.730 --> 00:44:31.690 with federal prosecutors who feel the exact same 00:44:31.690 --> 00:44:34.789 way that you feel and know that something has 00:44:34.789 --> 00:44:38.690 to be done. And you're the one that has to do 00:44:38.690 --> 00:44:44.110 it. Very well said. Thanks. Thanks so much. Thanks 00:44:44.110 --> 00:44:47.369 for joining us. Thanks for sharing your memories 00:44:47.369 --> 00:44:49.869 of Bob Mueller. And thank you. Thank you for 00:44:49.869 --> 00:44:54.690 your service. Well, thank you. All right. Take 00:44:54.690 --> 00:45:07.070 care, guys. Okay. Thanks. You know, Ken, one 00:45:07.070 --> 00:45:10.409 of the great things about having Guy here is 00:45:10.409 --> 00:45:15.309 he serves to highlight what I think is a less 00:45:15.309 --> 00:45:19.329 known part of Bob Mueller's career, which is 00:45:19.329 --> 00:45:21.750 the time he spent in the homicide section in 00:45:21.750 --> 00:45:28.369 the U .S. Attorney's Office. A number of former 00:45:28.369 --> 00:45:30.190 colleagues of his in the U .S. attorney's office 00:45:30.190 --> 00:45:33.170 during that period recently published a letter 00:45:33.170 --> 00:45:37.869 about him, which I think echoes many of the things 00:45:37.869 --> 00:45:40.590 we've been talking about. But I'd just like to 00:45:40.590 --> 00:45:45.489 sort of briefly sort of note a few of the things 00:45:45.489 --> 00:45:49.909 that they mention in there. And, you know, one 00:45:49.909 --> 00:45:56.409 is, you know, the remarkable. Sort of the unusual 00:45:56.409 --> 00:45:59.449 and remarkable thing about having a former assistant 00:45:59.449 --> 00:46:03.329 attorney general from a white shoe law firm come 00:46:03.329 --> 00:46:06.230 into what what the letter describes as the constant 00:46:06.230 --> 00:46:09.469 state of barely controlled chaos in the homicide 00:46:09.469 --> 00:46:11.670 section of the U .S. Attorney's Office. I know 00:46:11.670 --> 00:46:15.690 you and I both lived that and how Bob, despite, 00:46:15.789 --> 00:46:17.989 you know, being, as you point out, kind of a 00:46:17.989 --> 00:46:22.269 patrician guy who certainly didn't grow up in 00:46:22.269 --> 00:46:25.480 some of the neighborhoods. where these homicides 00:46:25.480 --> 00:46:28.139 were taking place, nonetheless threw himself 00:46:28.139 --> 00:46:33.000 into the work and immediately developed rapports 00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:37.880 with all the key people that are involved in 00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:43.539 this, the civilian witnesses, the other prosecutors, 00:46:43.820 --> 00:46:48.179 the colleagues, the night shift detectives. And 00:46:48.179 --> 00:46:51.719 the letter describes him as just an exceptional 00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:56.139 homicide prosecutor. And I think it really captures 00:46:56.139 --> 00:47:02.320 the empathy and the emotional demands of that 00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:08.460 role. These are really hard cases. And also the 00:47:08.460 --> 00:47:11.239 letter also talks about his soldierly bearing 00:47:11.239 --> 00:47:17.579 and his reserved demeanor. But the takeaway of 00:47:17.579 --> 00:47:21.639 him being somebody who deeply cared about public 00:47:21.639 --> 00:47:26.780 safety. And his loyalty to his colleagues. It's 00:47:26.780 --> 00:47:30.800 all consistent with the things that Bob Mueller 00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:34.519 exemplified throughout his career. And I think 00:47:34.519 --> 00:47:36.440 the last paragraph, actually, of the letter is 00:47:36.440 --> 00:47:42.139 particularly moving. And maybe you'd like to 00:47:42.139 --> 00:47:45.480 read it. Yeah, you mentioned the word buttoned 00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:47.519 down. He was a buttoned down guy. But as the 00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:50.860 letter points out, he embraced the disorder. 00:47:51.710 --> 00:47:54.489 controlled, barely controlled chaos in the homicide 00:47:54.489 --> 00:47:58.530 section and was able to thrive within it. But 00:47:58.530 --> 00:48:00.929 yeah, the end of the letter just says, Bob went 00:48:00.929 --> 00:48:03.250 on to arguably more important jobs after a few 00:48:03.250 --> 00:48:06.869 years, ultimately being FBI director, for example. 00:48:07.369 --> 00:48:09.349 But he often said that he never had a better 00:48:09.349 --> 00:48:11.730 job than working for justice as an assistant 00:48:11.730 --> 00:48:14.190 United States attorney. And he was always very 00:48:14.190 --> 00:48:16.969 proud of his service in Washington, D .C. And 00:48:16.969 --> 00:48:19.800 his colleagues then say, we are also... proud 00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:21.900 of our service together. And we remain thankful 00:48:21.900 --> 00:48:24.460 that Bob joined our ranks during that trying 00:48:24.460 --> 00:48:27.480 time and that he was and always will be one of 00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:31.900 us. So I think the point of the letter comes 00:48:31.900 --> 00:48:33.559 through very clearly, which is, I think, the 00:48:33.559 --> 00:48:35.139 point that you and I have tried to make is that 00:48:35.139 --> 00:48:38.920 Bob really reflected the best of federal prosecutors. 00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:42.500 He reflected as close as you can get to that 00:48:42.500 --> 00:48:46.099 ideal that we all strive, never completely succeed, 00:48:46.260 --> 00:48:50.630 but all strive to. emulate. And I think we all 00:48:50.630 --> 00:48:52.369 count ourselves very proud to have served with 00:48:52.369 --> 00:48:56.789 them. Yeah. And I want to thank you as somebody 00:48:56.789 --> 00:49:00.409 who I know was quite close to Bob and worked 00:49:00.409 --> 00:49:03.409 closely with him in many capacities over the 00:49:03.409 --> 00:49:06.710 years for sharing your thoughts and your recollections. 00:49:07.309 --> 00:49:11.110 I think this is a particularly important time 00:49:11.110 --> 00:49:13.809 for us to reflect on, you know, as you describe 00:49:13.809 --> 00:49:17.400 an aspiration, but a very important ideal. of 00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:20.360 our criminal justice system, which is to, you 00:49:20.360 --> 00:49:22.800 know, have prosecutors who sort of live up to 00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:24.719 the finest traditions of the Justice Department, 00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:28.539 who exercise enlightened and sound prosecutorial 00:49:28.539 --> 00:49:32.559 discretion. And there is really nobody who did 00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:36.199 it better than Bob Mueller. Amen. Thanks, Steve. 00:49:36.300 --> 00:49:38.760 It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Ken. Thank you 00:49:38.760 --> 00:49:41.800 for listening today. This is Steve Bunnell on 00:49:41.800 --> 00:49:45.340 behalf of the Steady State Sentinel, encouraging 00:49:45.340 --> 00:49:52.010 you to... Tune in again. Have a good day. Thank 00:49:52.010 --> 00:49:54.269 you for listening to the SteadyState Sentinel 00:49:54.269 --> 00:49:57.769 podcast. Don't miss out on more insights and 00:49:57.769 --> 00:50:00.550 exposes from America's premier global security 00:50:00.550 --> 00:50:05.170 experts. Also, subscribe to our Substack at substack 00:50:05.170 --> 00:50:09.489 .com slash at SteadyState1 and follow our social 00:50:09.489 --> 00:50:12.150 media and join us right here next week for another 00:50:12.150 --> 00:50:15.789 exciting edition. 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