Something is changing in our country, and most
people feel it before they can explain it. Hi
all, I'm Steve Bunnell. I'm here today with Ken
Weinstein on the Steady State Sentinel podcast.
We're here today to talk about the ideals of...
Federal prosecution, and we're going to use a
legendary federal prosecutor and former FBI director
by the name of Bob Mueller as an example of some
of those ideals. There's been a lot of discussion
lately about the role of federal prosecutors
and the appropriate exercise of discretion by
federal prosecutors. And so we thought we would
talk a little bit about that. I think it's fair
to say that among much of the public, there's
not a real clear understanding or baseline of
what ideally we would expect and want from our
federal prosecutors. And so Ken and I thought
it would be helpful and interesting, hopefully,
to talk about that, talk about our experience
and weave in some. anecdotes and stories about
somebody we both worked with at various times,
Bob Mueller. So before we dig in, both Ken and
I are longtime federal prosecutors or former
federal prosecutors, but we'll give just a very
high level sense of where we're coming from in
terms of our background. I'm currently practicing
law in a small firm in D .C. But I spent over
17 years as a federal prosecutor in the U .S.
Attorney's Office in D .C. and at Maine Justice,
including working with Ken and working with Bob
Mueller. And I served as the criminal chief in
the U .S. Attorney's Office towards the end of
my career. And Ken, talk a little bit about your
background. ways that it intersected with DOJ
and Bob Mueller. Okay. Thanks, Steve. Good to
be here with you. So just in short, my background
is I was a federal prosecutor, assistant U .S.
attorney in two different U .S. attorney's offices,
both in Southern District of New York and then
D .C. And in D .C., I was in the homicide section
for quite a while. And that's where I worked
with you and with Bob. And then after that, I
bounced around DOJ. uh was uh remained justice
for a while um and then went to join baba with
the fbi i was his general counsel and his chief
of staff came back i was u .s attorney assistant
attorney general and all told i think i was in
doj for about 18 years and enjoyed every minute
well um I think there are few people that have
had as diverse and remarkable a career as Ken
Weinstein. So we're very lucky to have his perspectives
here today. I think one of the topics that we
want to focus on here is, you know, what makes
the role of a federal prosecutor different from
other attorney jobs? And this is something that...
For everybody who becomes a federal prosecutor,
if they didn't know coming in, they certainly
appreciate it once they take on the job. And
when they look back on it later, they appreciate
the difference. And one of the big differences
starts from the fact that the United States is
not an ordinary client. They are different. Their
interests are not those of a private party. Their
interests are the public interest. There is a
mission. to the job. All the people in the office
have the same client, which is not an experience
you find in a large law firm, for instance. And
it's a job that requires you not only to be skilled
in the law and the sort of technical aspects
of developing evidence, but it requires you to
exercise sound discretion. prosecutorial discretion,
which is a unique thing for a lawyer. You don't
get to do that in the same way, certainly in
the private sector. And, you know, there's an
element of that which involves making sure that
you're protecting the rights of all the participants
in the system. You're not just there to win.
You have a duty to do justice. And part of that
is to do justice in the right way. It's about
protecting the rights of even the defendant,
the person you're prosecuting, and the integrity
of the court. So that's some of the sort of high
-level aspects of what federal prosecutors do
that I think are perhaps underappreciated but
really critical to the functioning of a system
that I think – Most Americans and I think most
people around the world have grown to have great
respect for it, which is our federal system and
our federal criminal system and federal court
system because they all kind of go together.
Ken, maybe you could talk a little bit about,
you know, kind of where these values and traditions,
these ideals, where do they come from? Are they
written down? How does one come to learn these
things as a prosecutor? Yeah, it's a good question.
And the short answer is no, they're not written
down. But I think you did a good recitation of
some of the sort of the things that distinguish
being a federal prosecutor from being a lawyer
in any other capacity. I mean, you said you have
an obligation as a federal prosecutor to protect
the institution of the criminal justice system.
In other words, your job is not just to win a
case for your client, but. to protect the process
and make sure that the process is fair to everybody
and that it's perceived as fair because the criminal
justice system only works jurors only serve and
serve responsibly people only trust the verdicts
and um you know people will only cooperate and
come testify in the judicial system if they feel
like that system is fair and as the chief representative
of the government the one side in a criminal
prosecution the side that's taking action that
has the power to bring criminal cases it's incumbent
on you to act in a way that protects that both
reality and appearance of fairness and so that's
a sort of an additional obligation that a prosecutor
has and then you put your finger on another one
which is sort of a sub part of that which is
there's a duality to your obligation as a prosecutor
You have an obligation not only to work as hard
as possible, be as creative and aggressive as
the facts and the law allow in pursuit of a conviction,
but at the same time, you're equally obligated
to protect the rights of the person that you're
going after, the person on the other side of
your case, i .e. the criminal defendant. Because
once again, that system, even if you convict
the person, Even if that person is guilty of
the crime you charged him with and he's convicted
of, if you got to that result in an unfair way,
then that hurts the system, hurts the credibility
of the system. And so it's an interesting additional
obligation that one has as a federal prosecutor.
So sort of back to the question of, you know,
where does one look to see, okay, how should
a prosecutor, you know, a young federal prosecutor
walks in the door, how should he or she act?
How should one actually carry out those responsibilities?
And you're right, there's lots of training and
there are manuals and all that stuff. But the
way that you learn is you learn by watching those
people who are ahead of you in the office, who
are admired and respected and have earned that
respect because they're doing it the right way.
And this is just like lots of professions, right?
I mean, the ideal doctor. Once again, it's not
written down somewhere. It's the person who has
all the right skills and talents and all that
stuff, but also who knows how to conduct himself
or herself in a way that earns the respect of
their peers. And so it's the same idea in the
U .S. Attorney's Office. And so when you sort
of learn as a prosecutor, you learn by watching
and people lead by example. And I can think of
a number of people, you being one that I learned
from by watching and learned, you know, sort
of where the lines were, what the, you know,
when you should concede a point, when you should
push a point, all those kind of things. And so
it's really not written down anywhere. And the
idea, I think the way it works in most prosecutor's
offices, and frankly, this applies to all federal
prosecutors, all prosecutors of all types. We're
talking about federal prosecutors specifically.
I think the way it works is that you sort of
learn where the line is. You learn sort of what
the standard is by watching those people. You
try to live up to it. And at some point in your
career, you start to realize that you now have
an obligation. To pass that standard on, to live
out that standard in a visible way for the people
who are younger than you who look up to you.
I mean, paying it forward is sometimes, you know,
you get to a certain age. I mean, that's the
biggest value you've got to contribute. You know,
one of the things, Ken, I know we both encountered
at various points in our careers. People who.
Who maybe watch too much TV and embodied qualities
of a prosecutor that maybe are not admirable
or not part of the finer traditions of the Justice
Department. What are some of the things that
do not characterize sort of the prosecutor that
should be modeled that you should be modeling
yourself after? Yeah, look, I think you watch
TV, you know, see movies and. Lawyers are depicted
a certain way and prosecutors are sort of depicted
in a way that you sometimes I think that's that's
not accurate. And one of the things is that the
idea that to be a successful prosecutor, you've
got to be a showboater. You've got to be sort
of, you know, over the top, flamboyant in trial,
et cetera, you know, flashy and theatrical. Some
of our colleagues who are some of the best prosecutors,
you know, had a theatrical streak in them, no
question. But that in and of itself is not really
the currency that makes you a successful prosecutor
in the long run. Channeling your passion, demonstrating
that you have that passion so the jurors see
that you believe what you're saying. Absolutely.
But the real touchstone of that, the touchstone
of success in a courtroom is integrity, is having.
Both, you know, conducting yourself with absolute
integrity and showing the jurors and showing
the judge who's making decisions about your case
that you're all about being a straight shooter.
And so it's less the flash, more the substance
of integrity. Also, you know, oftentimes you
hear people talk about one loss records, you
know, that a prosecutor, one X number, you know,
isn't he or she great. Look, you know. I'd love
to have won every one of my cases. I didn't.
I lost some cases. But you know what? What's
more important is if you take the cases that
are righteous cases, you prosecute them to the
best of your ability, you do it in a way that's
fair, that does honor to the system, and then
the jury renders a verdict, you've done your
job, you've carried on the trust that your office
has developed with the system, with the people,
and the people have spoken. So it's less the
one loss record. Less the result and more how
you conducted the process. I remember one of
the things that used to make me sort of more
nervous when I was in court than maybe anything
else was when my peers would come to watch me.
Because I cared very much about my reputation
among my peers in some ways more than I did among...
jurors or other people in the courtroom, because
those were the people that were assessing me
sort of against the criteria of, you know, kind
of an ideal prosecutor. They knew the difference
between a workhorse and a show horse. And, you
know, one of the things that we both experienced,
I think, in the U .S. Attorney's Office in D
.C. Where prosecutors move around, they work
a caseload, and then they hand it off to somebody
else, and they pick up a case from somebody else.
And so your work is inherited by somebody else,
and you inherit someone else's work, and you
get to see whether they left you a well -put
-together case or the opposite. And that has
a way of really building a healthy culture because—
Um, there's nowhere to hide in that. It's not
about your performance evaluation. It's about
what your peers think of you in a, in a good
way. Um, and, uh, yeah, yeah. Reputation and
reputation, not only for diligence, but as you
said, candor, um, to the tribunal and to defense
counsel and to others, but, you know, also that
reputation. to fulfill your brady obligations
uh which is part of you know making sure everybody's
getting a fair shake in the system the defendant
has a right to see evidence that could help the
defense um and you've got a right to you got
an obligation as a prosecutor to share that um
i remember going through training uh and learning
about There was some question about, well, do
we really need to turn this or that over? And
one of the senior prosecutors at the time who
was doing the training, there's a guy named Dave
Shurtler, who we both know, said, well, I always
turn that over. And somebody said, well, do you
really have to? And he said, that's not the question.
I feel it's the right thing to do. Maybe I'm
not going to win as many cases as the next guy,
but this is the way I work. And I remember thinking,
you know, if Dave Shurtler does it that way,
then that's the way I want to do it. And that's
not written down. That's just the way you learn.
Good lesson. What about the sort of public posturing
parts of the job? You know, there are some, again,
this is sort of maybe from TV. You see a lot
of prosecutors running out to talk to the press
about pending cases, about pending investigations.
Was that something that was sort of regarded
as a badge of honor and esteem in your experience,
Ken? Yeah, look, and we'll talk about Bob Mueller
in a minute, but every time I ended up having
a press conference or talked to the press throughout
my whole career, he'd call me and call me a showboater.
Well, you know, Bob was known for always speaking
the truth, Ken. Yeah, and not speaking to the
press. But actually, that was a good lesson that
it's better. Look, we all like attention and
there is a place for getting the message out
about good law enforcement work. But at the end
of the day, what's really important is what happens
in the courtroom. The fact that the victim's
family in a murder case feels like their rights
have been vindicated, that you've fought for
them, and that you've fought a fair fight. And
it was a good result. That's more important than
getting out there and trumpeting the results
of a particular case. So, yeah, just in terms
of talking about the things that don't end up
being sort of universally admired among prosecutors,
that's one of them. Yeah. No, and I think it's
important. I mean, we're trying to highlight
the sort of characteristics and values of sort
of an ideal. We're not suggesting that everybody.
is at that level. Including us. Including us,
absolutely. And frankly, one of the kind of professional
conceits of prosecutors is sometimes they can
be a little self -righteous and, you know, they
get preachy. And we've all seen that and you
need to guard against it. It's a job that can't
be done without some humility. It can't be done
right. Without some humility. And that's an underappreciated
quality. Sometimes the job teaches you humility,
too. Well, that's exactly. Yeah, I learned that.
Those are important lessons. So, look, just in
terms of some of just to tick them off, just
some of the things that Steve, you and I talked
about this, that would sort of are the qualities
that we think of, you know, as sort of the ideal
federal prosecutor. You know, obviously. Focus
on public service over sort of personal gain
or personal glory. You know, it's not about obviously
not about making money. It's not about promoting
yourself. It's about doing the right thing and
getting justice. I mean, this is you're working
for the Department of Justice, a federal department
that in its name has a value. So your job is
to do everything you can in furtherance of that
value of justice. um also um you know that being
even -handed we talked about before how important
it is that you're protecting everybody in the
system including your adversary including the
defendant and that's hard to do sometimes right
because you get into a two -week trial and it's
you know you get your energy going and things
start getting heated between you and the other
council let's say which is natural in that kind
of environment and you can start sort of getting
angry and passionate and it's really hard so
once again to your point we're talking about
the ideal you know we all had to strive to live
up to that ideal and we sometimes met the standards
sometimes didn't but you have to sort of park
your emotions park your your ego and um just
be objective and just only take positions that
are based on the facts and the law how about
politics And you were a U .S. attorney. I'm sure
you occasionally had members of Congress or other
political actors try to weigh in on a case. How
did you deal with that? As with you, because
you're a longtime federal public corruption prosecutor,
where politics obviously was right in the middle
of everything you were doing, it's absolutely
critical that as the head of any office or anybody
in an office that You might have a political
view about things that relate to a case. You
might have an opinion about, you know, the politics
of the defendant, what have you. But that's just
got to be parked outside the door. It's really
can be hard in some cases. But once federal prosecution
gets seen, is perceived as being a tool of politics,
then it loses the trust of the American people.
So, as you know. For generations, it's always
been important that DOJ prosecutors make it very
clear that they're only operating based on the
law and the facts, and that to the extent that
they're politicians or politics related to the
underlying facts of the case, that that has nothing
to do with the decision -making. Because otherwise,
once that perception creeps into the system,
then prosecutorial discretion, the decisions
that prosecutors make, are going to be subject
to... to skepticism and criticism as being based
on things other than law and the facts. Yeah.
I mean, and as you know, Ken, in the public corruption
arena in particular, but also obviously in many
other areas, the very fact of an investigation
can really have an impact on somebody's life.
And so there's this concept of predication. in
the prosecutorial world, which is basically you
have to have a good reason. You need specific
evidence of a federal crime that warrants further
investigation before you start investigating.
I mean, this is before you make a decision to
charge or pursue something to trial. That's also
an important part of discretion. You don't just
open investigations willy -nilly. Yeah, it's
important. And that's all part of the training.
But also, it's one of those things, you know,
some of those lines are not written down anywhere
as to what to say and what not to say. And that's
why it's important having mentors within those
attorneys, obviously, and leaders who recognize
how important it is to keep politics out of prosecution.
And just to sort of tick off the other things
I think you and I have talked about that sort
of make the key ingredients of a federal prosecutor.
Obviously, honesty and integrity, you know, and
that is so important for the legitimacy of the
process. But also, frankly, it's what makes you
successful. When you walk into court, so per
what we were saying earlier, at the end of the
day, jurors and judges aren't going to give you
credit for style points. They're not going to
give you credit for, you know, being flashy.
What matters is that they believe that you're
telling them the truth. And that you're about
getting to the truth. And if you are that way,
you convey that, then you're doing your job.
And so that's why the touchstone for being a
federal prosecutor is having that integrity.
And then just a couple other things. Obviously,
you know, it's not easy being a federal prosecutor.
It's a lot of work. You've got to want to do
it. You've got to have a passion for it. You
have to care about law enforcement. You have
to care about public safety. You have to care
about victims. And, you know, that's what fuels
you. So you need that fire in the belly. And
the last thing I think is worth ticking off is
you have to have respect for the institution.
You have to care about the institution. By the
institution, I mean the integrity of the Justice
Department. uh federal prosecution that's because
you are you're the one who's helping to either
create or destroy the trust that is you know
the foundation of that system and so you have
to care a lot about the institution about the
norms that have developed over decades and centuries
about how you conduct yourself as a prosecutor
And you have to care a lot about how the institution
is perceived by the public, by the courts, because,
you know, that is your you're going to leave
that legacy. When you walk out the door, you
have left the place better or worse off than
you found. You know, one of the things that I
always took. I always made time for at the attorney's
office was to try to always go to as many farewell
events as possible when people would leave the
office. And I think they're sort of unique things
because they were an opportunity for people to
talk about what they valued about the job that
they were leaving. And it was always sort of
uplifting to hear people talk about what the
job meant as they were leaving. appreciate things
and articulate them in ways that sometimes you
don't see it on a day -to -day basis. It's a
special job, which I think maybe transitions
us a little bit to a special person who we both
work with. And maybe you could talk a little
bit about how Bob Mueller sort of fits into what
we're talking about here. Yeah, thank you. When
we were asked to do this, This podcast, we were
asked to do it about federal prosecutors and
then specifically about Bob, and I think that's
why you and I sort of jumped at this opportunity,
because it's a real honor to talk about Bob.
Bob passed away this March, and he led a career
which is both legendary and incredibly impactful.
He'd been a prosecutor out in San Francisco back
in the 70s. He was in Boston. I think he was
the acting U .S. attorney in Boston, as memory
serves. He then came down to Maine Justice headquarters
here in D .C. and worked for the attorney general.
And then he eventually ended up at the end of
the George H .W. Bush administration as the assistant
attorney general, Senate -confirmed position
overseeing the criminal division. So, you know,
one of the very top three or four positions in
the whole Justice Department. He then left with
the change of administration. January 1993, and
then went to a law firm, very prestigious law
firm, but didn't remain there very long before
he decided he had to come back to public service.
And this was early 95, as I recall. And at that
time, D .C. was the murder capital of the world,
had more murders per capita here than any other
city in the country. And it was a tough time
to be a federal prosecutor. slinging cases left
and right and a lot of terrified witnesses and
grieving parents and the like. It was tough.
Bob decided that's what he wanted to do, even
though he'd been the number three person at DOJ.
Calls Eric Holder, our U .S. attorney at the
time, offers to come in. Eric, you know, asked
him if he wanted to have some, you know, supervisory
position. Bob said, no, I just want to be a line
outside prosecutor. And he came in. and parked
himself right down the hall from us. And, you
know, we had a lot of great mentors at that time.
I mentioned Dave Shurtler and others who were
tremendous mentors. Bob came in, though, and
he sort of in many ways set a different standard.
It really sort of caught our attention. And you,
as I recall, were one of the first people who
met with him. And why don't you tell us about
that? Yeah. I mean, I think it's hard for folks
who haven't worked within the Justice Department
to appreciate how sort of strange and unique
the path from being the assistant attorney general
of the criminal division of the entire Justice
Department to have had that job and then to go
back or down the food chain to be a line attorney.
in the homicide section in the superior court
divisions, not even in federal court, of the
U .S. Attorney's Office in D .C. Only somebody
who is totally devoid of illusions of grandeur
or ego disease would even think about doing that.
And Bob was one of those guys. I mean, he took
over my caseload because I, at that point, had
been in the homicide section and was... moving
to a public corruption prosecutorial role and
um i had i was a fairly junior homicide prosecutor
i had an interior office didn't even have a window
um that's what bob got when he showed up he got
my office he got my caseload um this guy who
used to have three secretaries when he was the
assistant attorney general of the criminal division
and In addition to raising questions about whether
he'd lost his mind to make a move like that,
it was to me and I think to the others there,
it was remarkably inspirational. Because here
was this guy who was saying, what you're doing
as a line prosecutor in D .C. is sufficiently
important and rewarding and meaningful that I
want to give up all the money and all the kind
of... glory and perks that I might enjoy somewhere
else and come into the trenches and do the job
with you. And it made me not want to leave the
homicide section, frankly, although I had already
committed to going. It was very clear. The job
is not about the, you know, that job was not
about status. It was not about money. And he
came in, he dug in. I had, you know, some kind
of. homicide cases from rough parts of town.
It was Bobo and Reds beefing over sneakers and
somebody got killed. These were not grand, high
-profile, transnational crime cases. They were
just local homicide cases. And Bob was remarkable.
He stepped right in. He was very excited about
the transition. And one thing about Bob that
I noticed early on, I used to talk about this
when people would interview for the office for
a job. And I was on the hiring committee for
many years. And I used to refer to some people,
some applicants as having, quote, a pronoun problem.
And the pronoun problem would be when they use
the word I to talk about things that they had
done in the past as opposed to we. And I noticed
that Bob never used the word I. He always used
the word we when he talked about all these things
that he had done. And so, you know, Bob didn't
have a pronoun problem. Bob was about the team.
Bob was about, you know, he's a Marine running
to the sounds of gunfire, literally, in the District
of Columbia. So, anyways, that was, you know,
and that was a really powerful experience, I
think, not just for me, but for his colleagues.
It really sent a message. it did and he you're
right he never used the word i it was always
we and that's the way he conducted himself as
a as a lot of prosecutors his whole time he you
know went into court with absolute integrity
and won the affection and admiration of the judges
um he became you know a go -to person for the
homicide detectives who got it that he was all
about um doing the job and doing it well and
and helping them out um he was became a real
teammate with everybody in the homicide section.
And he cared a lot. Here's a guy who was perceived
as being older, sort of soldierly, and maybe
stiff in certain ways. And he was anything but.
He cared about what he was doing. He cared about
the people who were involved in the cases. And
I remember, for example, one time we had this
really incredibly tragic murder at a Starbucks
in D .C. It happened to be right up near his
house when he was the chief in the homicide section.
He got the call, heard the call early in the
morning. He went to the scene and the three young
kids who'd been killed in a robbery, a botched
robbery, were still there on the scene. And he
was there sort of helping to coordinate things.
He ended up taking that case on. And he came
back into my office afterwards. And, you know,
here's a guy who'd been through Vietnam and been
shot. uh in combat of vietnam and he was um he
was really um you know he was really touched
and upset by what he'd seen about what happened
to these three young kids and just gave me an
insight into how much he cared about these cases
he got it that there are human beings um behind
these cases uh and he shared that with us you
know the other prosecutors but also the detectives
And to that point, we've got a special guest
I want to mention. You're talking, you know,
two of us are federal prosecutors, but the people
who really do the work in these homicide cases
were the homicide detectives. And it just so
happens that on the day that Steve and I were
doing this podcast, an old friend of ours, Guy
Middleton, who is a homicide lieutenant back
at the time that Bob served as prosecutor, was
in town and he was kind enough to join us for
a few minutes. Okay, Guy, good to see you. How
are you today? Good to see you. Great. Doing
fine. Thank you. Thanks so much for joining us.
As I was telling you, Steve Bunnell and I are
doing a podcast right now about sort of the ideals
behind being a federal prosecutor. And one of
the ways that we're showing those ideals is going
back and talking about our old friend Bob Mueller.
With you in town, just by happenstance, the same
time we were doing this podcast, we thought we
couldn't pass up the opportunity to have you
give us a few thoughts about Bob, because I know
you two work very closely together. We do. So
first, if you would, just introduce yourself
and what you did at MPD and the kind of work
you did with Homicide at UC. Well, first, let
me thank you for inviting me to the podcast.
I'm looking forward to... Chipping in where and
how I can, I'm a native Washingtonian. I did
29 years on a metropolitan police department.
About half of those years were spent in the homicide
branch as a sergeant and then as a lieutenant
responsible for investigating murders in D .C.
at what was at the time a very very very high
level of homicides occurring in dc yeah so take
us back now i guess that's in the early mid 90s
and um we had the pleasure of working together
as did steve and uh and you and um dc had i think
upwards of 450 murders a year that's right i
recall you guys were Oftentimes going to five
murders a night. Yeah, they were nonstop. There
was no shortage of murder investigations. And
unfortunately, it was like triage. You had to
work on the cases that offered the most promise.
To close the cases, you could and work on the
other ones at some other time. But there were
so many murders and they were so frequent. All
hours of the day, of course, overnight was the
worst, but evening tour, day tour, it didn't
matter. They were happening all hours of the
day and night. And, of course, we had limited
resources, limited homicide detectives, limited
forensics examiners, limited morgue pathologists.
We just did the best we could under the circumstances
until eventually the murders started to decline.
Yeah, and thanks to your good work. And a lot
of the work in terms of solving the murders and
then convicting those responsible for the murders
was done in conjunction with the prosecutors
in the U .S. Attorney's Office and the key team
players. The teammates were the detective and
police. officers who were who worked the case
and the federal prosecutor who was assigned the
case right that's right yep so you're working
with a lot of prosecutors along the way dealing
with this this uh this wave of violence and a
fellow by the name of bob muller walks through
the door bob muller shows up in the homicide
section of the u .s attorney's office and uh
he made an impression on me as i'm sure he did
all the other homicide investigators at the time,
because Bob was just a no -nonsense, straightforward,
hardworking prosecutor, a public servant. And
he came into that office looking to understand
and prosecute these homicide defendants, suspects.
And with the help of his expertise and the help
of the homicide detectives who came to trust
and look up to him, was able to get a lot of
convictions and shut down a lot of these, some
of what I would call repeat killers. At the time,
some people might have labeled them serial killers.
I don't know what that definition means to people,
but in a sense, you could say that. We would
arrest people who may have committed two, three,
four, five, six murders. Maybe we couldn't pin
them all on them, but we knew that they more
than likely had done them. So when Bob walks
in, you're dealing with a lot of other AUSAs,
federal prosecutors, who are sort of more like
me at the time, kind of a youngster, a little
wet behind the ears, you know, 30 -something
or whatever. Bob walks in, he's a little different
cat, right? No question. Bob is clearly older.
than most of the prosecutors that we had been
used to working with by at least 10 years, probably
slightly more. But he was, you could tell he
was seasoned. He was experienced. He knew what
he was doing. And a lot of us homicided. detectives
at the time were, you know, kind of helping to
train prosecutors and how to go about investigating
and prosecuting homicide suspects. And we didn't
need to do that with Bob. Bob needed to understand
the dynamics of prosecuting murders in Washington,
D .C., given at the time the record. number of
murders, but also the way you had to massage
and work with witnesses who weren't really keen
on testifying in open court about anything, never
mind an open murder. That trust starts with the
detectives, and then the detectives take the
case once they get an arrest warrant, takes the
case to the prosecutors, and then you have to
rebuild that trust and relationship with the
prosecutors. And Bob never skipped a beat when
it came to that process. He understood the witness
position. He understood what it took. to get
a successful prosecution of the case. And he
understood how to work with homicide detectives
who are, I will say, aren't necessarily the easiest
people to work with when they're trying to get
a case prosecuted. You guys are tremendous professionals.
Never worked with anybody who was more... dedicated
than a homicide detective absolutely um but you
you know you push your agenda and that's what
you're supposed to do and um so let me just ask
you then um he you know he comes in he's obviously
as i said sort of a different cat um you guys
are homicide detectives you've got your own ethos
how did you end up getting along you as a sort
of the collective of homicide detectives how
did you end up getting along with bob both as
a line prosecutor and then when he was the the
chief of the section. Yeah. I think everybody
enjoyed working with Bob. Everybody liked Bob.
Everybody liked his work ethic is what stuck
out to all of us. He's just full steam ahead.
You know, they say. Pardon the line, but they
say you don't join the Marines, you become a
Marine. And Bob Mueller was definitely, unequivocally,
a Marine in that office doing the job that he
was doing, not only as a line prosecutor, but
also as the chief of the homicide section there
in the U .S. Attorney's Office. All about business,
all about... successfully accomplishing the mission.
And all of us in Homicide appreciated that ethos.
And, you know, we really, really, really enjoyed
working with him. The last question, what do
you think motivated? What drove Bob Mueller?
Well, I obviously was not a personal friend of
Bob Mueller. I didn't. hang out with him socially.
So I can only speak from my perspective. And
from my perspective, Bob was like a lot of other
federal prosecutors that I've met. Not all, but
a lot of them are driven by... doing what's right.
They're driven by seeing justice done. You got
to keep in mind, and you might not want me to
say this, but I'll tell you, you got to keep
in mind, federal prosecutors could very easily
be private attorneys somewhere else making a
whole boatload of money. And when you choose
to take an oath to be a public servant and serve
in In this case, in D .C., as a local prosecutor,
you're not making as much money as you could
be making if you took your skills somewhere else.
So it's really a dedication to the work, to the
job that you're hired to do. And we as detectives,
of course, you know, we feel that way. But it's
encouraging and refreshing when you. working
with federal prosecutors who feel the exact same
way that you feel and know that something has
to be done. And you're the one that has to do
it. Very well said. Thanks. Thanks so much. Thanks
for joining us. Thanks for sharing your memories
of Bob Mueller. And thank you. Thank you for
your service. Well, thank you. All right. Take
care, guys. Okay. Thanks. You know, Ken, one
of the great things about having Guy here is
he serves to highlight what I think is a less
known part of Bob Mueller's career, which is
the time he spent in the homicide section in
the U .S. Attorney's Office. A number of former
colleagues of his in the U .S. attorney's office
during that period recently published a letter
about him, which I think echoes many of the things
we've been talking about. But I'd just like to
sort of briefly sort of note a few of the things
that they mention in there. And, you know, one
is, you know, the remarkable. Sort of the unusual
and remarkable thing about having a former assistant
attorney general from a white shoe law firm come
into what what the letter describes as the constant
state of barely controlled chaos in the homicide
section of the U .S. Attorney's Office. I know
you and I both lived that and how Bob, despite,
you know, being, as you point out, kind of a
patrician guy who certainly didn't grow up in
some of the neighborhoods. where these homicides
were taking place, nonetheless threw himself
into the work and immediately developed rapports
with all the key people that are involved in
this, the civilian witnesses, the other prosecutors,
the colleagues, the night shift detectives. And
the letter describes him as just an exceptional
homicide prosecutor. And I think it really captures
the empathy and the emotional demands of that
role. These are really hard cases. And also the
letter also talks about his soldierly bearing
and his reserved demeanor. But the takeaway of
him being somebody who deeply cared about public
safety. And his loyalty to his colleagues. It's
all consistent with the things that Bob Mueller
exemplified throughout his career. And I think
the last paragraph, actually, of the letter is
particularly moving. And maybe you'd like to
read it. Yeah, you mentioned the word buttoned
down. He was a buttoned down guy. But as the
letter points out, he embraced the disorder.
controlled, barely controlled chaos in the homicide
section and was able to thrive within it. But
yeah, the end of the letter just says, Bob went
on to arguably more important jobs after a few
years, ultimately being FBI director, for example.
But he often said that he never had a better
job than working for justice as an assistant
United States attorney. And he was always very
proud of his service in Washington, D .C. And
his colleagues then say, we are also... proud
of our service together. And we remain thankful
that Bob joined our ranks during that trying
time and that he was and always will be one of
us. So I think the point of the letter comes
through very clearly, which is, I think, the
point that you and I have tried to make is that
Bob really reflected the best of federal prosecutors.
He reflected as close as you can get to that
ideal that we all strive, never completely succeed,
but all strive to. emulate. And I think we all
count ourselves very proud to have served with
them. Yeah. And I want to thank you as somebody
who I know was quite close to Bob and worked
closely with him in many capacities over the
years for sharing your thoughts and your recollections.
I think this is a particularly important time
for us to reflect on, you know, as you describe
an aspiration, but a very important ideal. of
our criminal justice system, which is to, you
know, have prosecutors who sort of live up to
the finest traditions of the Justice Department,
who exercise enlightened and sound prosecutorial
discretion. And there is really nobody who did
it better than Bob Mueller. Amen. Thanks, Steve.
It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Ken. Thank you
for listening today. This is Steve Bunnell on
behalf of the Steady State Sentinel, encouraging
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