WEBVTT - Generated by AI 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.299 Something is changing in our country, and most 00:00:03.299 --> 00:00:11.339 people feel it before they can explain it. Today 00:00:11.339 --> 00:00:13.740 on the Steady State Sentinel, we're joined by 00:00:13.740 --> 00:00:16.519 Russ Travers, one of the most experienced intelligence 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:18.699 and counterintelligence officials of his generation. 00:00:19.579 --> 00:00:22.339 Over a career spanning roughly 45 years in the 00:00:22.339 --> 00:00:24.739 intelligence community, he served in senior roles 00:00:24.739 --> 00:00:27.100 across the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Joint 00:00:27.100 --> 00:00:30.019 Staff, National Intelligence Council, the National 00:00:30.019 --> 00:00:32.399 Security Council, and the National Counterterrorism 00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:35.939 Center. He helped build the post -9 -11 counterterrorism 00:00:35.939 --> 00:00:38.520 architecture. He later served as acting director 00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:41.500 of the NCTC and in the Biden administration as 00:00:41.500 --> 00:00:44.479 deputy homeland security advisor. And he also 00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:46.500 has a new book coming out, Common Sense Take 00:00:46.500 --> 00:00:50.439 Two, which we're going to discuss. Russ has also 00:00:50.439 --> 00:00:52.920 been a serious writer and critic of the intelligence 00:00:52.920 --> 00:00:56.520 system. His 1997 essay, The Coming Intelligence 00:00:56.520 --> 00:01:00.020 Failure, written inside the Intelligence Communities 00:01:00.020 --> 00:01:03.539 magazine, warned of that dysfunction, budget 00:01:03.539 --> 00:01:06.200 pressures, and the bureaucratic habits that leave 00:01:06.200 --> 00:01:09.079 the country vulnerable to surprise. Got that 00:01:09.079 --> 00:01:11.799 right. And he has obviously written on many matters 00:01:11.799 --> 00:01:13.340 since. So, Russ, welcome and glad to have you 00:01:13.340 --> 00:01:15.299 here. Well, it's great to be with you, John. 00:01:15.340 --> 00:01:18.140 Thanks very much. Of course. Let's talk a little 00:01:18.140 --> 00:01:19.719 bit about you and then we'll get into talking 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:21.579 about the book and what's going on nowadays. 00:01:21.859 --> 00:01:24.219 But you began your career in Army Intelligence 00:01:24.219 --> 00:01:27.540 in the late 1970s and later served across DIA, 00:01:27.700 --> 00:01:32.379 the Joint Staff, NSC, ATC. So looking back, what 00:01:32.379 --> 00:01:34.400 problem in the national security system kept 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:42.959 recurring no matter where you sat? Well, I mean, 00:01:42.980 --> 00:01:46.640 the system was designed. for a world that existed 00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:50.000 75 years ago with the National Security Act. 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:55.120 And I came in as a Soviet military analyst. That 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:59.200 was the problem at the time. Very quickly, I 00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:02.359 think, as a result of the forces of globalization, 00:02:02.900 --> 00:02:07.439 problems weren't purely military anymore. They 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:13.740 were almost by definition interagency. uh department 00:02:13.740 --> 00:02:16.780 and adc equities were confronted with with all 00:02:16.780 --> 00:02:19.460 problems of any consequence and we simply weren't 00:02:19.460 --> 00:02:22.960 structured for that and so as you suggested over 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:26.259 the last 20 or so of years of my career i was 00:02:26.259 --> 00:02:29.939 primarily focused on interagency organizations 00:02:29.939 --> 00:02:33.080 whether it was the nic or nctc or the national 00:02:33.080 --> 00:02:35.319 security council because i just i very much believe 00:02:35.319 --> 00:02:39.139 that if if we're going to get this right we have 00:02:39.139 --> 00:02:41.199 to do it in kind of a whole of government fashion 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:44.500 We just don't do that very well. Well, I think 00:02:44.500 --> 00:02:48.400 sadly that's true. So I mentioned your piece, 00:02:48.539 --> 00:02:52.599 your 1997 piece written before 9 -11, where you 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:54.800 argued that the system was dysfunctional enough 00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:58.340 that failure was essentially guaranteed. And 00:02:58.340 --> 00:03:00.620 it turned out to be right. Obviously, 9 -11 came 00:03:00.620 --> 00:03:03.680 not long after that. What did you see then that 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:05.180 others are missing? What were the key things 00:03:05.180 --> 00:03:09.340 that suggested that warning wasn't functional 00:03:09.340 --> 00:03:12.020 properly? Well, I mean, honestly, I don't think 00:03:12.020 --> 00:03:14.419 it was just me. I think that the bowels of the 00:03:14.419 --> 00:03:17.099 intel community, there was a kind of a pretty 00:03:17.099 --> 00:03:19.639 widely held perception that we were not on the 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:22.719 right track. You remember that this was the time 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:26.900 of the peace dividend. And rather than address 00:03:26.900 --> 00:03:30.159 kind of the constellation of organizations and 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:34.360 authorities, we just tried to salami slice the 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:39.000 community. In particular, we focused on trying 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:42.620 to divide the labor. CIA would do political and 00:03:42.620 --> 00:03:47.520 econ. DIA would do defense and so forth. And 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:49.199 unfortunately, the world doesn't operate that 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:52.280 way. I mean, every problem is a combination of 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:54.500 political, economic, and sociological, military, 00:03:54.699 --> 00:03:56.979 and technical. And if we don't have an ability 00:03:56.979 --> 00:04:01.419 to fuse those issues, we're going to get it wrong. 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:06.919 And we clearly did. Well. Thank you for writing 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:08.479 that. People should have paid more attention, 00:04:08.620 --> 00:04:09.939 obviously. But yeah, we were more interested 00:04:09.939 --> 00:04:11.759 in saving money at that time than we were of 00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:14.879 dealing with systemic problems. So you spent 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:17.540 much of your career then subsequently on counterterrorism 00:04:17.540 --> 00:04:20.100 and counterterrorism issues. And so, as you know, 00:04:20.180 --> 00:04:23.240 Sebastian Gorka just presented the Trump administration's 00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:26.500 latest 2026 U .S. counterterrorism strategy, 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:29.639 identifying violent left -wing extremists like 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:32.759 Antifa as the critical terrorist threat category. 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:36.160 It focuses on like radically pro -transgender 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:39.300 groups and others. You've been working on counterterrorism 00:04:39.300 --> 00:04:40.860 and you've been remarking on counterterrorism 00:04:40.860 --> 00:04:44.060 lately. I think your discussion amongst others 00:04:44.060 --> 00:04:49.060 is far more complex than the Trump administration 00:04:49.060 --> 00:04:54.459 sort of view of things. How can professionals 00:04:54.459 --> 00:04:56.560 and practitioners who do their job and see how 00:04:56.560 --> 00:05:00.519 complex it is on the ground deal with a system 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:02.819 where their leaders don't want to hear? That 00:05:02.819 --> 00:05:04.680 complexity, like what's your what's your take 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:08.379 on all of this? Well, I read the document when 00:05:08.379 --> 00:05:11.399 it came out and was just shaking my head, as 00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:16.060 I think virtually all professional counterterrorism 00:05:16.060 --> 00:05:19.040 individuals are. I mean, there is certainly left 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:22.079 wing terrorism to be dealt with, but to basically 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:26.959 ignore right wing terrorism or to essentially 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:30.959 dismiss Africa, for instance, because it's not. 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:35.139 America first. The notion, again, back to my 00:05:35.139 --> 00:05:38.939 point about globalization, things in Africa don't 00:05:38.939 --> 00:05:42.060 stay in Africa, as we're seeing with Ebola. We're 00:05:42.060 --> 00:05:46.500 going to see with terrorism as well. And unfortunately, 00:05:46.899 --> 00:05:51.319 if you've got an administration that doesn't 00:05:51.319 --> 00:05:54.060 understand the way the world works, we're going 00:05:54.060 --> 00:05:57.240 to go through some very difficult times, less 00:05:57.240 --> 00:06:01.399 than until that perspective changes. That's why 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:04.899 elections are important. Well, and they're also 00:06:04.899 --> 00:06:07.899 pulling resources from areas that are of importance 00:06:07.899 --> 00:06:09.939 to try to fit an ideological or whatever the 00:06:09.939 --> 00:06:13.399 right term is, or partisan view of the world. 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:17.040 And as you talked about in many of your writings, 00:06:17.379 --> 00:06:20.920 career civil servants, intelligence practitioners, 00:06:21.300 --> 00:06:24.800 we have to deal with the world as it is. And 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:27.060 if your leaders are telling you, no, it's this 00:06:27.060 --> 00:06:29.769 way. I don't know how we operate in that post 00:06:29.769 --> 00:06:31.529 -truth environment if you're an intelligence 00:06:31.529 --> 00:06:35.670 officer. Yeah, I mean, I think there has always 00:06:35.670 --> 00:06:39.910 been almost a, by definition, tension between 00:06:39.910 --> 00:06:43.430 an intel community that tries to be impartial 00:06:43.430 --> 00:06:46.029 and objective and a policy community that comes 00:06:46.029 --> 00:06:48.670 in with pretty strongly held opinions, be they 00:06:48.670 --> 00:06:52.050 Democrat or Republican. This one's different, 00:06:52.149 --> 00:06:55.810 for sure. I've never seen an intel community 00:06:55.810 --> 00:06:59.269 just... completely dismissed the way this one 00:06:59.269 --> 00:07:01.470 has. And that's just extraordinarily dangerous. 00:07:03.709 --> 00:07:06.730 Well, let's say Congress gets its act together 00:07:06.730 --> 00:07:08.689 and they're going to rewrite the national security 00:07:08.689 --> 00:07:12.129 architecture for the next 25 years. What would 00:07:12.129 --> 00:07:15.250 you preserve from the post 9 -11 era? What would 00:07:15.250 --> 00:07:17.670 you dismantle? Like you were looking at it in 00:07:17.670 --> 00:07:20.209 the late 1990s and you give some very thoughtful 00:07:20.209 --> 00:07:23.699 comments about it. What would you do if... Serious 00:07:23.699 --> 00:07:26.100 people came to you and said, what does the intelligence 00:07:26.100 --> 00:07:29.120 community need to move forward in this century? 00:07:31.019 --> 00:07:33.879 So I guess my own view would be that we will 00:07:33.879 --> 00:07:39.759 be judged by whether or not we deal well with 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:43.040 the downsides of globalization. And for me, that 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:48.040 means problem sets that transcend the equities 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:53.740 of any particular department or agency. The answer, 00:07:53.819 --> 00:07:57.300 I think, has to be, how do we figure out how 00:07:57.300 --> 00:08:01.620 to do all of government, all of society, and 00:08:01.620 --> 00:08:05.279 when appropriate, whole of world -ish problems 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:09.759 and sort of responses to problems? And so the 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:12.339 National Security Council, for me, is a big deal. 00:08:12.699 --> 00:08:16.540 People like to trash it as micromanaging. That's 00:08:16.540 --> 00:08:19.759 not my perspective. I haven't seen it. Similarly, 00:08:20.019 --> 00:08:22.519 I thought that the National Security Council... 00:08:22.350 --> 00:08:26.170 terrorism sculpture was the right answer to deal 00:08:26.170 --> 00:08:28.649 with the terrorism problem. John Brennan, when 00:08:28.649 --> 00:08:32.269 he stood it up, said that at some point the U 00:08:32.269 --> 00:08:34.289 .S. government would take its eye off of terrorism 00:08:34.289 --> 00:08:36.450 because it was no longer the number one priority 00:08:36.450 --> 00:08:40.330 and we needed someplace that would be worrying 00:08:40.330 --> 00:08:43.269 the problem 24 -7. Well, I think that's what 00:08:43.269 --> 00:08:47.649 happened in 2017 -19 and unfortunately we... 00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:50.679 cut NCTC because the departments and agencies 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:52.740 wanted to preserve resources. I think that was 00:08:52.740 --> 00:08:55.759 the wrong answer. If I were working for a day, 00:08:55.899 --> 00:08:59.740 I would invest in NCTC in a big way. But I would 00:08:59.740 --> 00:09:03.460 also take a hard look at how does this country 00:09:03.460 --> 00:09:06.500 deal with transnational organized crime, which 00:09:06.500 --> 00:09:09.899 has far more impact on people's lives than terrorism 00:09:09.899 --> 00:09:12.740 ever will. We don't do it very well. We're extraordinarily 00:09:12.740 --> 00:09:16.019 balkanized. So I would have a transnational crime 00:09:16.019 --> 00:09:22.789 center. We look at cyber, the notion that, you 00:09:22.789 --> 00:09:25.049 know, appoint a cyber director at the White House 00:09:25.049 --> 00:09:27.389 level and everything's going to get fixed is 00:09:27.389 --> 00:09:31.289 crazy. There are still all kinds of issues between 00:09:31.289 --> 00:09:35.909 CISA and the Bureau and NSA. How do you work 00:09:35.909 --> 00:09:39.830 that in a way that is going to be whole of government? 00:09:39.929 --> 00:09:43.549 But, oh, by the way, most of this effort is actually 00:09:43.549 --> 00:09:45.450 done in the private sector. So now you've got 00:09:45.450 --> 00:09:47.610 to think about how you bring the government and 00:09:47.610 --> 00:09:50.330 the private sector together. We don't do that 00:09:50.330 --> 00:09:54.129 at all. I tried to bring private sector individuals 00:09:54.129 --> 00:09:56.750 into NCPC, and the lawyers wouldn't let us do 00:09:56.750 --> 00:09:59.049 it because we'd be giving an advantage to one 00:09:59.049 --> 00:10:02.149 sector over another. Okay, it's a hard problem, 00:10:02.289 --> 00:10:04.730 but we have to be able to address it, I think. 00:10:07.350 --> 00:10:09.759 Let's talk about your book a little bit. And 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:11.179 we'll use that to discuss some of the things 00:10:11.179 --> 00:10:12.759 that are happening now. So your book consciously 00:10:12.759 --> 00:10:15.179 models itself on Thomas Paine's Common Sense, 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:17.580 right? Because you believe we're at a decisive 00:10:17.580 --> 00:10:20.740 civil moment. I do. And you address the book 00:10:20.740 --> 00:10:23.700 to the exhausted majority, and I agree with that. 00:10:24.259 --> 00:10:26.379 Who exactly are you trying to reach, and what 00:10:26.379 --> 00:10:28.620 do you hope they do differently after reading 00:10:28.620 --> 00:10:34.120 it? So, as you say, when Thomas Paine wrote Common 00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:39.279 Sense, he wasn't writing for... convinced revolutionaries 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:42.860 or confirmed loyalists. He was writing for what 00:10:42.860 --> 00:10:45.720 historians believe was at least a plurality, 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:49.960 if not a majority of the colonists who were very 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:52.960 uncertain about what the future held and what 00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:55.659 form of government. They were still British citizens, 00:10:55.980 --> 00:11:00.000 but they were aggrieved. How did they fix it? 00:11:00.059 --> 00:11:02.580 And Paine, in a sense, catalyzed the revolution 00:11:02.580 --> 00:11:06.389 by convincing the middle. that they needed to 00:11:06.389 --> 00:11:10.330 engage with the revolution. I kind of think we're 00:11:10.330 --> 00:11:14.950 at the same point. A public policy group called 00:11:14.950 --> 00:11:19.870 More in Common coined the phrase exhausted majority 00:11:19.870 --> 00:11:23.870 six, seven, eight years ago, I think. And their 00:11:23.870 --> 00:11:28.649 polling data showed that it was about 67 % of 00:11:28.649 --> 00:11:31.649 the American public. Neither extreme left, neither 00:11:31.649 --> 00:11:35.289 extreme right. extraordinarily frustrated with 00:11:35.289 --> 00:11:40.110 our government. The polarization is maddening. 00:11:40.309 --> 00:11:44.529 They want the country to work for as many people 00:11:44.529 --> 00:11:49.250 as it can, as well as it can. And it's not. And 00:11:49.250 --> 00:11:53.730 so what I try to do in a relatively straightforward, 00:11:54.090 --> 00:11:57.549 non -academic fashion is examine the problem 00:11:57.549 --> 00:12:02.830 sets and lay out not only the near -term. but 00:12:02.830 --> 00:12:06.610 also some of the longer term systemic issues 00:12:06.610 --> 00:12:08.990 that we're going to have to address if we're 00:12:08.990 --> 00:12:12.570 going to fix this. And in the book, you also 00:12:12.570 --> 00:12:16.370 argue that, you know, defeating MAGA or Trumpism 00:12:16.370 --> 00:12:19.070 is necessary, but not sufficient. Like the problems 00:12:19.070 --> 00:12:21.970 are systemic. They need more systemic answers. 00:12:22.149 --> 00:12:25.990 And what are the deeper problems that would remain 00:12:25.990 --> 00:12:29.429 even after, say, an electoral defeat? You cite 00:12:29.429 --> 00:12:30.950 the failure of government, you just mentioned, 00:12:30.970 --> 00:12:34.340 to do these things. I mean, I think I came like 00:12:34.340 --> 00:12:36.620 you from institutional work, and I thought our 00:12:36.620 --> 00:12:40.100 institutions took their jobs very seriously and 00:12:40.100 --> 00:12:43.320 did a good job largely. But this sort of back 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:45.519 on, quote unquote, the deep state, there's a 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:49.179 lot of Americans who believe that now. So what 00:12:49.179 --> 00:12:53.360 do we do if Donald Trump loses their stillness 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:55.340 view out there that the institutions are part 00:12:55.340 --> 00:12:57.899 of the problem when you and I think that they 00:12:57.899 --> 00:13:01.110 are not necessarily part of the problem? Well, 00:13:01.129 --> 00:13:03.690 there's certainly a lot of good in the civil 00:13:03.690 --> 00:13:06.470 service. And for instance, when I got fired the 00:13:06.470 --> 00:13:09.370 first time, I took issue with the notion of a 00:13:09.370 --> 00:13:11.909 deep state because that just wasn't what I had 00:13:11.909 --> 00:13:14.850 seen over my career. If we go back to the beginning 00:13:14.850 --> 00:13:20.330 of our careers, that's about the point when faith 00:13:20.330 --> 00:13:24.230 in institutions across the population started 00:13:24.230 --> 00:13:27.370 to decline. It's been going down for 50 years. 00:13:30.520 --> 00:13:33.779 Increasingly, the Congress is not able to deliver 00:13:33.779 --> 00:13:36.860 on the problems that Americans are most concerned 00:13:36.860 --> 00:13:43.840 about. And so in a almost perverse way, Mr. Trump 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:47.720 was useful in that he shed light on problems 00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:51.000 that have existed for a very long time. Some 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:53.440 of these go back to the challenges of democracy 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:57.799 250 years ago and the gerrymandering system. 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:03.419 early 19th century. And we've always had a bent 00:14:03.419 --> 00:14:09.860 conspiracy theory component of our population. 00:14:10.519 --> 00:14:14.620 And over time, I think our institutions have 00:14:14.620 --> 00:14:17.259 come under pressure. We get back to the point 00:14:17.259 --> 00:14:20.240 of a government that was formed 250 years ago 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:23.899 may not be ideal for dealing with the world in 00:14:23.899 --> 00:14:28.679 the 21st century. And so... You get back to the 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:32.019 point about the civil service, in which I believe 00:14:32.019 --> 00:14:35.620 in passionately. It's not perfect, for sure. 00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:40.639 But most of us are not narcissistic. We took 00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:42.820 an oath in the Constitution that we believed. 00:14:43.340 --> 00:14:46.340 We came to work wanting to do good and wanting 00:14:46.340 --> 00:14:50.080 to do well. And it's not to say that there isn't 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:53.240 waste, that there aren't bad actors. But the 00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:58.360 civil service has worked. Tremendous damage. 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:02.379 I mean, 300 ,000 odd people have left. Millions 00:15:02.379 --> 00:15:05.580 of person years have left the government and 00:15:05.580 --> 00:15:07.080 the expertise. And that's going to come back 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:10.179 to haunt us. And so you start thinking about 00:15:10.179 --> 00:15:16.039 how do you fix that? All right. If you want a 00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:20.000 functional civil service that's reformed, you 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:23.159 need Congress. If you need Congress to work, 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:28.000 you've got to diminish. You're going to diminish 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:30.500 polarization. That's really need to be done at 00:15:30.500 --> 00:15:33.460 the state level because that's who sends people 00:15:33.460 --> 00:15:37.620 to Congress. You want serious people in Congress. 00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:40.759 You're going to need to deal with electoral reforms 00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:43.279 at the state level. You're going to need to deal 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:47.580 with education of our population. And so you 00:15:47.580 --> 00:15:51.320 pull on one problem and you just uncover all 00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:53.990 kinds of additional ones. I think one of the 00:15:53.990 --> 00:15:56.029 key themes in the book is that this stuff is 00:15:56.029 --> 00:15:59.330 all interrelated. And if we don't deal with it 00:15:59.330 --> 00:16:01.350 holistically, we're going to have a problem. 00:16:03.149 --> 00:16:05.149 And so when we talk about the failure of institutions, 00:16:05.350 --> 00:16:07.450 I think you're meaning large institutions like 00:16:07.450 --> 00:16:10.590 Congress. Because essentially, in my view, it's 00:16:10.590 --> 00:16:13.350 a failure of leadership. But institutions in 00:16:13.350 --> 00:16:18.450 the sense of the EPA and the CIA and the State 00:16:18.450 --> 00:16:20.570 Department, I think have been... If Americans 00:16:20.570 --> 00:16:23.210 knew about what good work has been done, our 00:16:23.210 --> 00:16:25.490 health is far better than it's been. You know, 00:16:25.529 --> 00:16:29.690 life, our lives are longer. You know, it's a 00:16:29.690 --> 00:16:32.169 healthier air we breathe, safer water we drink. 00:16:32.289 --> 00:16:35.570 You know, we've saved the world from lots of 00:16:35.570 --> 00:16:38.330 tremendous disasters around the world. You know, 00:16:38.330 --> 00:16:40.490 and so in some ways our institutions have worked 00:16:40.490 --> 00:16:43.230 very well, whereas our leadership, our political 00:16:43.230 --> 00:16:46.659 leadership. I think, hasn't and often even uses 00:16:46.659 --> 00:16:48.799 those institutions as someone to blame. That's 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:51.559 the deep state game, right? Well, it's not us. 00:16:51.620 --> 00:16:54.080 It's these, you know, unelected bureaucrats that 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:55.440 are a problem. But the unelected bureaucrats 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:57.179 have actually done a pretty good job over the 00:16:57.179 --> 00:17:00.460 last 50 years. Yeah, I mean, like you, I mean, 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:02.980 I worked for eight presidents, four Democrat, 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:05.940 four Republican. It didn't matter. We were all 00:17:05.940 --> 00:17:09.900 trying to fulfill whatever the elected administration 00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:13.660 in this country wanted to do. And some of us 00:17:13.660 --> 00:17:15.680 are Democrats, some of us are Republicans, some 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:19.779 of us are independent. And just it did not matter. 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:22.319 And so you're quite right. And it's an important 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:25.980 clarification. When I talk institutions, I mean 00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:30.279 things like the Congress. I do think there are 00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:32.400 challenges in the executive branch, to be sure. 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:36.240 I would consider our educational system as an 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:38.779 institution that needs to be fixed. The Supreme 00:17:38.779 --> 00:17:41.799 Court is a problem in this environment. And so 00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:46.400 there are many reforms that need to occur. And 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:49.799 I would argue the civil service, I mean, the 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:52.960 Pencil Act is, I mean, it's 100 years old. It 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:56.839 probably needs to be updated. But as a general 00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:00.319 proposition, we absolutely need an impartial 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:04.579 civil service to make government work. You just 00:18:04.579 --> 00:18:06.319 mentioned that, like, all of these things are 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:09.420 interconnected so that, you know, if... You know, 00:18:09.420 --> 00:18:10.940 for the institution to get fixed, you have to 00:18:10.940 --> 00:18:13.200 have Congress, but Congress needs others. And 00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:18.319 so for real democratic renewal, there are repairs 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:20.859 that need to be made. You talk about civic atrophy. 00:18:20.940 --> 00:18:23.359 So it sounds to me in a certain sense that, you 00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:26.680 know, evolving these from the top down aren't 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:29.319 necessarily the answer. Like, we actually need, 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:31.359 you know, things to also work from the bottom 00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:33.519 up. You know, education, civic understanding, 00:18:33.859 --> 00:18:37.119 civic education, these type of things so that... 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:38.819 They work in concert with each other because 00:18:38.819 --> 00:18:40.420 you can fix one or two of these institutions. 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:43.039 It's not going to work its way through the whole 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:47.079 system. That is exactly right. And a hundred 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:51.759 years ago, Dewey and Littman debated about how 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:54.880 things get done in democracies. And Littman was 00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:59.059 very much a fan of having a really strong elite 00:18:59.059 --> 00:19:02.480 that was going to run the country. And Dewey 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:05.380 thought we needed to have really bright. people 00:19:05.380 --> 00:19:08.039 that were educated that could inform sort of 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:11.700 their leaders. Well, in reality, it's both. And 00:19:11.700 --> 00:19:13.920 so there's going to be some top down for sure, 00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:18.299 a role for the elite. But if we don't get the 00:19:18.299 --> 00:19:21.259 American public, again, the exhausted majority 00:19:21.259 --> 00:19:25.359 to care about what's going on in this country 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:28.660 and to engage in ways that they can address problems, 00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:34.190 we're going to be in a world of hurt. How do 00:19:34.190 --> 00:19:38.069 you, the book points out so many of these challenges 00:19:38.069 --> 00:19:40.630 and it looks almost daunting, but how do you 00:19:40.630 --> 00:19:43.769 remain optimistic in this era of nowadays with 00:19:43.769 --> 00:19:46.890 turbocharged AI and gerrymandering and conspiracy 00:19:46.890 --> 00:19:51.109 thinking and intellectualism and economic inequality, 00:19:51.349 --> 00:19:53.170 all the declining trust, you mentioned all these 00:19:53.170 --> 00:19:55.410 kinds of things, but the book posits sort of, 00:19:55.410 --> 00:19:59.029 you know, an optimistic view that. And you often 00:19:59.029 --> 00:20:00.730 you suggest, I think, in the book, if I read 00:20:00.730 --> 00:20:03.269 it correctly, that sort of this policy overreach 00:20:03.269 --> 00:20:05.430 of this administration, the moral overreach of 00:20:05.430 --> 00:20:09.150 this administration, Christian nationalism, overattack 00:20:09.150 --> 00:20:12.990 on immigration, militarized politics. You suggest 00:20:12.990 --> 00:20:15.450 they're likely to alienate much of this exhausted 00:20:15.450 --> 00:20:18.509 majority and that things are likely to get better. 00:20:18.569 --> 00:20:20.569 I hope you're right. What's your take on that? 00:20:21.109 --> 00:20:24.190 I think the polling data is just unequivocal 00:20:24.190 --> 00:20:28.680 that that the overreach has caused. a substantial 00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:31.980 portion of the people that voted for Mr. Trump. 00:20:32.140 --> 00:20:34.779 And, you know, again, the polling data would 00:20:34.779 --> 00:20:37.200 suggest that roughly half the Republican Party 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:42.140 is MAGA. The other 30, 40 million people that 00:20:42.140 --> 00:20:45.680 voted for him is some for sure Republicans, a 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:49.000 lot of independents that were put off by some 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:53.250 of President Biden's actions. They're the ones, 00:20:53.410 --> 00:20:55.930 I think, that fall within the category of the 00:20:55.930 --> 00:20:58.509 exhausted majority that are turning away from 00:20:58.509 --> 00:21:00.769 President Trump. And as I say in the book, if 00:21:00.769 --> 00:21:05.789 he had focused on immigration policy solely the 00:21:05.789 --> 00:21:09.269 truly worst of the worst, he would have had the 00:21:09.269 --> 00:21:11.789 bulk of the American public on board with him. 00:21:12.269 --> 00:21:17.650 But separating families and this mass deportation 00:21:17.650 --> 00:21:20.309 of individuals who have done absolutely nothing 00:21:20.309 --> 00:21:24.130 wrong except cross the border, absolutely a violation, 00:21:24.410 --> 00:21:27.069 but they have not conducted a crime in the United 00:21:27.069 --> 00:21:31.450 States. And so I do think the elections will 00:21:31.450 --> 00:21:34.769 be somewhat self -correcting. And then, as you 00:21:34.769 --> 00:21:37.250 say, the key is that's going to be necessary, 00:21:37.490 --> 00:21:42.029 but not sufficient. What I hope is going to happen 00:21:42.029 --> 00:21:46.390 is that you will have people interested in taking 00:21:46.390 --> 00:21:49.970 a hard look at what do we need to do to address 00:21:49.970 --> 00:21:53.589 these issues. It's going to be, in my opinion, 00:21:53.630 --> 00:21:57.730 much broader than a Project 2029. There has to 00:21:57.730 --> 00:22:00.970 be that kind of focus on the excesses of the 00:22:00.970 --> 00:22:04.630 Trump administration. But the problems, as we've 00:22:04.630 --> 00:22:09.640 talked, are much, much deeper. That gets to kind 00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:13.180 of a willingness to engage over the long term 00:22:13.180 --> 00:22:17.059 in these systemic problems. And the reason I 00:22:17.059 --> 00:22:21.259 guess I'm optimistic is because I do have faith 00:22:21.259 --> 00:22:23.960 in the American public. I mean, I think that 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:28.119 to More in Common's credit, most Americans are 00:22:28.119 --> 00:22:31.299 not polarized. Most Americans care about their 00:22:31.299 --> 00:22:33.799 families and their communities. They want to 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:37.490 live in a good country. On the other hand. I 00:22:37.490 --> 00:22:41.650 can get pretty pessimistic at times because it's 00:22:41.650 --> 00:22:45.390 daunting to think about keeping people engaged 00:22:45.390 --> 00:22:49.710 for the long term and addressing interests that 00:22:49.710 --> 00:22:53.150 are going to be countered by a lot of money and 00:22:53.150 --> 00:22:56.430 a lot of power and the sort of technological 00:22:56.430 --> 00:22:59.130 advances that you alluded to that are occurring 00:22:59.130 --> 00:23:02.170 much faster than policy and law can talk with. 00:23:03.009 --> 00:23:06.849 So, Annette, am I... Do I think we're going to 00:23:06.849 --> 00:23:09.670 have a better life for our kids? I'm not convinced 00:23:09.670 --> 00:23:13.710 of that. And that's very sad and discouraging. 00:23:13.869 --> 00:23:17.710 But, you know, you've got to have hope. Yeah, 00:23:17.730 --> 00:23:19.710 I mean, you talk about faith in the public. And 00:23:19.710 --> 00:23:22.009 I grew up in that system, too, believing that, 00:23:22.029 --> 00:23:24.049 wanting to do it. But there is a large subset 00:23:24.049 --> 00:23:26.049 of Americans who don't want the things that you're 00:23:26.049 --> 00:23:29.910 suggesting. And that subset who has power wants 00:23:29.910 --> 00:23:33.099 to rig the system so that. There isn't a chance 00:23:33.099 --> 00:23:35.140 for these kind of reforms and things you're talking 00:23:35.140 --> 00:23:38.160 about. So, you know, you see people talk about 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:42.740 this in the space now. It's like, how far do 00:23:42.740 --> 00:23:46.119 you go to fight against what you think is a tyranny 00:23:46.119 --> 00:23:48.740 or what have you? And like, do you, you know, 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:50.400 if one side is gerrymandering, then you have 00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:52.180 to gerrymander. Like, at what point does that 00:23:52.180 --> 00:23:58.579 solve itself, if it does? For me, Congress is 00:23:58.579 --> 00:24:02.640 the hinge that we need. a Congress that can deal 00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:06.740 with sort of money and politics, accepting that 00:24:06.740 --> 00:24:10.019 you can only go so far with Supreme Court decisions. 00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:16.819 We need a legislature that can deal with proper 00:24:16.819 --> 00:24:21.680 regulation of AI and technology and privacy bill 00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:24.720 of rights and all of those sorts of things, which 00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:28.140 are just, it seems to me, incomprehensible now, 00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:33.970 which is a huge worry. But in order to get the 00:24:33.970 --> 00:24:36.009 kind of Congress that is going to be able to 00:24:36.009 --> 00:24:38.930 do this sort of thing, you've got to send serious 00:24:38.930 --> 00:24:42.150 legislators to Washington or to state capitals. 00:24:42.670 --> 00:24:46.950 And now you're back to that complicated array 00:24:46.950 --> 00:24:50.329 of courses. So you don't do that if you don't 00:24:50.329 --> 00:24:53.029 fix the primary system within the states. And 00:24:53.029 --> 00:24:54.670 you're not going to fix the primary situation 00:24:54.670 --> 00:24:57.329 in the states if you don't have people engaging. 00:24:58.220 --> 00:25:00.019 People aren't going to engage if they don't see 00:25:00.019 --> 00:25:02.559 what's at stake. And so that's an education issue. 00:25:02.839 --> 00:25:05.900 So all of these, for me, upstream issues from 00:25:05.900 --> 00:25:08.460 Congress are going to have to be addressed. And 00:25:08.460 --> 00:25:12.480 only after we start to see a critical mass of 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:16.380 congressional representatives interested in government, 00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:20.619 not performative policy, that we start working 00:25:20.619 --> 00:25:23.819 on these really hard issues of health care and 00:25:23.819 --> 00:25:27.359 everything along those lines. Don't you see it 00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:29.990 going? other way. I mean, just in the last couple 00:25:29.990 --> 00:25:33.210 of days, there's been primaries where what I 00:25:33.210 --> 00:25:36.049 would consider almost radical right wing Republicans 00:25:36.049 --> 00:25:38.450 are losing to farther right wing people that 00:25:38.450 --> 00:25:41.029 Trump wants to push. And so if you're looking 00:25:41.029 --> 00:25:43.309 for more sensible people to come into Congress 00:25:43.309 --> 00:25:46.869 to help fix it, I don't see that happening. Do 00:25:46.869 --> 00:25:48.630 you believe like one of the things some people 00:25:48.630 --> 00:25:51.680 have talked about is. In the massive complexity 00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:55.119 of our huge country, we have very few legislators. 00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:58.140 Like, should we have actually more congressmen 00:25:58.140 --> 00:26:02.200 in smaller communities that have sort of real 00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:04.799 elections around real issues that deal with that 00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:06.960 community rather than what we have now, which 00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:09.720 is essentially almost so many of these congressional 00:26:09.720 --> 00:26:11.700 districts are nationalized. They're fighting 00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:15.319 national issues at the, you know, what Trump 00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:17.960 wants. In fact, they should be working on what... 00:26:18.109 --> 00:26:20.789 what matters to their smaller communities. Yeah. 00:26:20.890 --> 00:26:24.509 And I mean, I do think what you're going, maybe 00:26:24.509 --> 00:26:27.450 it's, hope it's not a plan, but I do think you're 00:26:27.450 --> 00:26:31.369 going to see a pretty significant recoil in the 00:26:31.369 --> 00:26:33.990 fall with the midterms. And we'll see. I mean, 00:26:34.009 --> 00:26:37.170 my guess is that the numbers would suggest that 00:26:37.170 --> 00:26:40.150 the gerrymandered districts on behalf of President 00:26:40.150 --> 00:26:42.150 Trump are probably not going to carry the day 00:26:42.150 --> 00:26:44.710 if the Democrats can get their act together. 00:26:45.470 --> 00:26:49.230 So let's assume that happens. Then you have very 00:26:49.230 --> 00:26:51.609 smart people. I mean, Danielle Allen, I think, 00:26:51.609 --> 00:26:53.390 is brilliant. I mean, she's been arguing for 00:26:53.390 --> 00:26:56.630 an increased size of the Congress for a very 00:26:56.630 --> 00:26:59.630 long time and has worked through how that could 00:26:59.630 --> 00:27:04.309 happen. You have many different suggestions on 00:27:04.309 --> 00:27:08.430 rank choice voting and multi -member districts 00:27:08.430 --> 00:27:11.930 and so forth at the state level. But that's only 00:27:11.930 --> 00:27:14.910 going to happen if people bring to bear practice. 00:27:15.049 --> 00:27:19.750 on their state representatives. And so, again, 00:27:19.789 --> 00:27:22.450 these things have to be sequenced properly, but 00:27:22.450 --> 00:27:25.089 you can at least see a way forward that it can 00:27:25.089 --> 00:27:28.470 work. Well, part of the problem of our system 00:27:28.470 --> 00:27:32.230 is that automatically weakens rural states and 00:27:32.230 --> 00:27:35.150 like the electoral college, like if you want 00:27:35.150 --> 00:27:38.609 more congresspeople, that means you're actually 00:27:38.609 --> 00:27:40.829 benefiting places that have larger populations. 00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:43.619 Therefore, these rural states are going to try 00:27:43.619 --> 00:27:46.400 to fight against it. And they have unusual power 00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:48.619 in our system because they have two senators 00:27:48.619 --> 00:27:51.779 when they don't have a population. So I don't 00:27:51.779 --> 00:27:53.759 mean to suggest these things can't be fixed, 00:27:53.819 --> 00:27:56.180 but there are a lot of challenges in the way, 00:27:56.200 --> 00:27:59.440 let's put it that way. No question whatsoever. 00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:04.720 But again, if you put your faith, I've got relatives 00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:07.940 around in Minnesota and Arkansas that live in 00:28:07.940 --> 00:28:12.480 cities and live in rural. I don't hear them lambasting 00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:15.799 sort of their democratic republic. I mean, they're 00:28:15.799 --> 00:28:20.640 very tied to their way of life and whatever their 00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:23.579 religious bent is and whatever their small government 00:28:23.579 --> 00:28:27.039 bent is, they just want things to work. And so 00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:29.400 if you kind of put your faith in the American 00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:32.359 public along those lines, then maybe there's 00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:34.900 a way forward. If not, I don't know what the 00:28:34.900 --> 00:28:37.700 forcing function is. I think part of the problem 00:28:37.700 --> 00:28:40.059 you probably agree is... at least in my lifetime, 00:28:40.279 --> 00:28:43.839 the news has become more of like a entertainment 00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:46.740 source. So like, you know, obviously it's become 00:28:46.740 --> 00:28:49.099 much more partisan. People watch whatever it 00:28:49.099 --> 00:28:51.440 is, Fox News or other things. And they're just, 00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:53.660 they're fed a certain view. And that is a view 00:28:53.660 --> 00:28:56.019 that gets people upset and rage. And it's entertaining 00:28:56.019 --> 00:28:58.240 in a sense. And the same is happening on our 00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:01.339 social media. You sign into things that sort 00:29:01.339 --> 00:29:03.660 of fit what you want to keep you worked up. And 00:29:03.660 --> 00:29:06.359 so I don't know how we get out of that. You know, 00:29:06.380 --> 00:29:07.619 when you and I grew up, there was, you know. 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:09.559 three channels and they pretty much said the 00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:12.640 same thing. And it's different now. You can find 00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:15.359 your own little view of the world and that to 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:17.200 keep the clicks going to make their money, they 00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:19.319 need to keep you angry. And I don't know how 00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:23.119 we come out of that part of it. Yeah. And people 00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:26.660 far smarter than me have dealt with this at length. 00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:29.880 I mean, I do think part of the answer is the 00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:33.349 focus on local news. I mean, when I grew up in 00:29:33.349 --> 00:29:35.730 the very northern part of New York State, we 00:29:35.730 --> 00:29:37.670 had the St. Lawrence Plain Dealer, which had 00:29:37.670 --> 00:29:41.190 a bunch of local reporters and they focused on 00:29:41.190 --> 00:29:43.730 what was going on in Canton, New York. And there 00:29:43.730 --> 00:29:46.710 was a way of holding people accountable. Well, 00:29:46.710 --> 00:29:49.329 that paper went out of business a few years ago 00:29:49.329 --> 00:29:51.410 and came back. I think they have like one reporter 00:29:51.410 --> 00:29:56.009 now. And there are interesting experiments, I 00:29:56.009 --> 00:30:00.670 think, going on. kind of public, private, nonprofit 00:30:00.670 --> 00:30:04.109 organizations that are publishing papers. Texas 00:30:04.109 --> 00:30:08.230 Tribune sort of led the way. But even ProPublica, 00:30:08.230 --> 00:30:14.789 a wonderful research effort that is in partnership 00:30:14.789 --> 00:30:20.930 with local news to try to hold local representatives 00:30:20.930 --> 00:30:25.329 accountable and trace the money and explain to 00:30:25.329 --> 00:30:28.740 people what's going on at a local level. And 00:30:28.740 --> 00:30:31.339 we do need people to get out of this sort of 00:30:31.339 --> 00:30:35.220 constant focus on what the focus is at the national 00:30:35.220 --> 00:30:38.519 level. And things do percolate up, as you said, 00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:43.819 below, from below. Long term effort. But I forget 00:30:43.819 --> 00:30:46.660 the statistics, but the numbers of newspapers 00:30:46.660 --> 00:30:49.920 that are going out of business every year, astronomical. 00:30:50.759 --> 00:30:53.319 Yeah, that's part of the civic education thing. 00:30:53.420 --> 00:30:56.099 I knew I liked you, but the upstate New York 00:30:56.099 --> 00:30:59.180 makes it even. Clear to me. I'm from upstate 00:30:59.180 --> 00:31:01.779 New York as well. My father's from up near there. 00:31:01.819 --> 00:31:03.400 He's from Governor, which is up near. Really? 00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:07.819 Went to school in Potsdam. I grew up in Cortland, 00:31:07.900 --> 00:31:11.339 Finger Lakes region, so there quite a bit. So 00:31:11.339 --> 00:31:12.420 listen, you've been generous with your time. 00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:13.819 I don't want to keep you too long, but let me 00:31:13.819 --> 00:31:16.500 pull you back to sort of your experience in the 00:31:16.500 --> 00:31:19.079 intelligence community a little bit. Like, well, 00:31:19.099 --> 00:31:20.579 the intelligence community now is dealing with 00:31:20.579 --> 00:31:22.140 a variety, you know, it's dealing with these 00:31:22.140 --> 00:31:24.079 partisan issues that are pushing down on them. 00:31:24.119 --> 00:31:26.579 We've seen that through. DNI and other places, 00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:28.440 but they're also dealing with real serious problems 00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:32.140 with AI, ubiquitous commercial data, encrypted 00:31:32.140 --> 00:31:35.680 platforms. You know, I worked overseas trying 00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:37.599 to, you know, run spies. Nowadays, you know, 00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:41.359 the number of cameras, the ability of big data 00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:45.339 to track at what everybody's doing. Open source 00:31:45.339 --> 00:31:47.740 intelligence is both a challenge and a good thing 00:31:47.740 --> 00:31:49.200 for probably for the intelligence community, 00:31:49.339 --> 00:31:51.859 but the enormous scale of these things. What 00:31:51.859 --> 00:31:55.670 does a new intelligence revolution? look like? 00:31:55.690 --> 00:31:57.450 Are we just dealing with the same kind of thing, 00:31:57.490 --> 00:32:00.269 but just faster? Or is there something new that 00:32:00.269 --> 00:32:02.170 the intelligence community has to get its hands 00:32:02.170 --> 00:32:07.410 around? You know, when I was the acting director 00:32:07.410 --> 00:32:11.309 of NCTC, I was very much of the view that machine 00:32:11.309 --> 00:32:14.349 learning and artificial intelligence were an 00:32:14.349 --> 00:32:17.109 imperative, not a nice to have, because the amount 00:32:17.109 --> 00:32:21.289 of information that comes in is just, it was 00:32:21.289 --> 00:32:26.849 just growing logarithmically. That said, I have 00:32:26.849 --> 00:32:31.589 tremendous concerns right now about what data 00:32:31.589 --> 00:32:34.970 we're bringing in and how we're using it. When 00:32:34.970 --> 00:32:38.309 we started teaching NCTC 20 years ago, there 00:32:38.309 --> 00:32:40.509 was something called total information awareness. 00:32:40.670 --> 00:32:43.130 It was being pushed by a guy named John Poindexter, 00:32:43.190 --> 00:32:46.190 who was with DARPA. And he was making the argument 00:32:46.190 --> 00:32:48.970 that you need a really big haystack so you can 00:32:48.970 --> 00:32:52.390 find the next terrorist. Well, his haystack envisioned 00:32:52.390 --> 00:32:55.420 things like... U .S. person's medical records. 00:32:55.660 --> 00:32:58.980 And it was just completely beyond the pale. And 00:32:58.980 --> 00:33:02.079 across the political spectrum, he got panned 00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:05.259 and Tia was killed. Well, if you were to go in 00:33:05.259 --> 00:33:10.640 right now and ask Claude or Chad GPT, what are 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:14.500 the potential invasions of privacy now compared 00:33:14.500 --> 00:33:20.559 to Tia? It's night and day. I mean, we are... 00:33:20.970 --> 00:33:23.609 We are surrendering our privacy. And if that's 00:33:23.609 --> 00:33:26.849 what Americans want to do, that's fine. From 00:33:26.849 --> 00:33:30.069 an Intel community perspective, I think we need 00:33:30.069 --> 00:33:34.769 to take a really hard look at 3333. I worry that 00:33:34.769 --> 00:33:38.410 the Intel community under the rubric of open 00:33:38.410 --> 00:33:42.450 source could be bringing in collateral telemetry 00:33:42.450 --> 00:33:48.369 data and ad tech data, which frankly is far more 00:33:48.369 --> 00:33:55.190 revelatory than FISA. ever will be and um it 00:33:55.190 --> 00:33:57.930 is this what you want our community to do i mean 00:33:57.930 --> 00:34:00.609 this is u .s person's data coming into the intel 00:34:00.609 --> 00:34:04.750 community because it's collected by a contractor 00:34:04.750 --> 00:34:07.809 and sold to the government and this is what you're 00:34:07.809 --> 00:34:13.409 seeing now with um maven and raven and the different 00:34:13.409 --> 00:34:18.750 efforts part of DOD and DHS to do targeting overseas. 00:34:18.969 --> 00:34:22.469 That's one thing. To track down people in the 00:34:22.469 --> 00:34:26.730 United States. Maybe that's another. Just really 00:34:26.730 --> 00:34:29.489 hard questions as we've seen the blurring of 00:34:29.489 --> 00:34:32.750 foreign and domestic. And for people like you 00:34:32.750 --> 00:34:35.449 and me that grew up as foreign intelligence officers, 00:34:35.630 --> 00:34:39.090 we need to be really careful about what we do. 00:34:39.329 --> 00:34:43.389 And I wish that the policy, legal, privacy, operational, 00:34:43.409 --> 00:34:46.809 technical equities. were being weighed by the 00:34:46.809 --> 00:34:50.610 Congress far more statistically than they are. 00:34:51.610 --> 00:34:54.530 I can see why there has always been a problem 00:34:54.530 --> 00:34:56.789 with just the sheer amount of data and not as 00:34:56.789 --> 00:34:59.489 many analysts to look at that. And so I can see 00:34:59.489 --> 00:35:02.030 nowadays the speed of AI and stuff, the stuff 00:35:02.030 --> 00:35:04.429 that's, say, collected by NSA. So they're collecting 00:35:04.429 --> 00:35:07.389 more information every day than any human could 00:35:07.389 --> 00:35:10.469 ever look at or any hundreds or thousands of 00:35:10.469 --> 00:35:12.469 humans could ever look at. And I can see if you're 00:35:12.469 --> 00:35:15.210 a customer, you're in the... general you're out 00:35:15.210 --> 00:35:17.530 in the field, there's a quicker way for you, 00:35:17.570 --> 00:35:19.269 for the system and not to say, you need this 00:35:19.269 --> 00:35:22.389 information to operate on. And from my time and 00:35:22.389 --> 00:35:23.929 your time too, there's always been customers, 00:35:24.030 --> 00:35:26.949 meaning policymakers or others that want to be 00:35:26.949 --> 00:35:28.469 their own analyst, right? And so they're like, 00:35:28.510 --> 00:35:30.949 cut out the analytic part, just give me the raw 00:35:30.949 --> 00:35:32.769 data and I'll make decisions based on it. And 00:35:32.769 --> 00:35:34.750 I worry a little bit about this is the speed 00:35:34.750 --> 00:35:36.510 is good. Like, so all that NSA material that 00:35:36.510 --> 00:35:39.190 just sits there and nobody can see, users can 00:35:39.190 --> 00:35:41.570 now see that and act on it, but there's not anything 00:35:41.570 --> 00:35:44.179 in between that's saying. hey, this actually 00:35:44.179 --> 00:35:46.900 doesn't fit with what we're seeing in other places, 00:35:46.940 --> 00:35:51.739 or there's a problem with this data set, or these 00:35:51.739 --> 00:35:53.000 people that are putting out this information, 00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:55.179 some of them are giving disinformation for their 00:35:55.179 --> 00:35:57.800 own domestic reasons to go after people you're 00:35:57.800 --> 00:36:01.980 operating on. So the analytic cadre, who is usually 00:36:01.980 --> 00:36:05.760 that place in between collection and giving it 00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:10.079 to policymakers, they worry that the policymakers 00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:12.650 are going to want to say, stop, stop. analyzing 00:36:12.650 --> 00:36:15.710 stuff, let me make my own decisions. Well, I 00:36:15.710 --> 00:36:18.449 mean, I think you've basically seen that with 00:36:18.449 --> 00:36:20.489 the president of the United States, who has talked 00:36:20.489 --> 00:36:23.050 about taking the intel community to school because 00:36:23.050 --> 00:36:26.489 he did not agree with the conclusions that the 00:36:26.489 --> 00:36:29.550 community was providing in the first administration. 00:36:30.070 --> 00:36:33.210 And then in the second administration, he goes 00:36:33.210 --> 00:36:38.539 or Tulsi Grabber goes so far as to fire. senior 00:36:38.539 --> 00:36:40.539 analytic types who were providing information 00:36:40.539 --> 00:36:43.739 that were out of step with his views on Venezuela. 00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:51.019 So your point is very well taken. So again, Russ, 00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:53.340 so glad to have you. You've been generous with 00:36:53.340 --> 00:36:57.099 your time. We may want to have you on. I would 00:36:57.099 --> 00:36:59.280 encourage people to read the book. Can you tell 00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:01.320 us a little bit about what you're working on 00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:04.949 now and when the book might be coming out? So 00:37:04.949 --> 00:37:06.150 I actually thought the book was going to be out 00:37:06.150 --> 00:37:08.090 this week. I got the final proofs yesterday. 00:37:08.510 --> 00:37:11.010 It'll probably be available either next week 00:37:11.010 --> 00:37:17.610 or the week after. So for me, the book is it's 00:37:17.610 --> 00:37:20.530 kind of an anchor for the ideas. I mean, lots 00:37:20.530 --> 00:37:23.550 of people disagree. I would just hope that we 00:37:23.550 --> 00:37:26.309 could have an adult conversation about what do 00:37:26.309 --> 00:37:28.710 we want out of our democracy and how are we going 00:37:28.710 --> 00:37:32.579 to get there? Like forever in this country, reasonable 00:37:32.579 --> 00:37:35.300 people will differ and will argue. We're just 00:37:35.300 --> 00:37:38.719 not having that conversation right now. These 00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:40.400 are important issues and thank you for bringing 00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:42.739 them up with us. And I encourage people to follow 00:37:42.739 --> 00:37:44.539 your writing and read the book when it comes 00:37:44.539 --> 00:37:47.099 out. So for our listeners, thank you very much. 00:37:47.179 --> 00:37:48.599 If you like what you're hearing, please subscribe 00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:50.820 to the Steady State Sentinel and follow other 00:37:50.820 --> 00:37:53.019 Steady State content. And if you can give us 00:37:53.019 --> 00:37:54.880 a review on Google, that would be really helpful. 00:37:54.980 --> 00:37:58.309 So again. Thank you. Stay informed and keep following 00:37:58.309 --> 00:38:00.230 the SteadyState Sentinel. This is John Seifer. 00:38:03.010 --> 00:38:05.949 Thank you for listening to the SteadyState Sentinel 00:38:05.949 --> 00:38:09.409 podcast. Don't miss out on more insights and 00:38:09.409 --> 00:38:12.190 exposes from America's premier global security 00:38:12.190 --> 00:38:16.809 experts. Also, subscribe to our Substack at substack 00:38:16.809 --> 00:38:21.150 .com slash at SteadyState1 and follow our social 00:38:21.150 --> 00:38:23.789 media and join us right here next week for another 00:38:23.789 --> 00:38:27.440 exciting edition. The Steady State is a nonprofit 00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:30.400 organization working to sustain our democracy 00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:33.880 and national security. Join us and support our 00:38:33.880 --> 00:38:38.159 mission by visiting www .thesteadysate .org.