WEBVTT - Generated by AI 00:00:00.430 --> 00:00:03.310 Something is changing in our country, and most 00:00:03.310 --> 00:00:11.609 people feel it before they can explain it. Welcome 00:00:11.609 --> 00:00:14.449 to the Steady State Sentinel. I'm Lauren Anderson. 00:00:14.669 --> 00:00:17.969 I spent nearly 30 years in the FBI, working national 00:00:17.969 --> 00:00:21.589 security issues in the U .S. and overseas. Over 00:00:21.589 --> 00:00:23.949 time, I've developed a habit of running toward 00:00:23.949 --> 00:00:27.350 crises that most people run away from. Today, 00:00:27.449 --> 00:00:29.089 we're going to talk about an interesting national 00:00:29.089 --> 00:00:31.309 poll that was conducted in late March of this 00:00:31.309 --> 00:00:34.609 year by Lincoln Park Strategies, focused on the 00:00:34.609 --> 00:00:38.450 strength of our democracy. Concerns about whether 00:00:38.450 --> 00:00:40.450 the U .S. is moving towards a more authoritarian 00:00:40.450 --> 00:00:43.369 form of government and the extent to which people 00:00:43.369 --> 00:00:45.990 feel comfortable expressing their views, their 00:00:45.990 --> 00:00:49.289 political views, in public. One of the findings 00:00:49.289 --> 00:00:54.030 was that 54 % of our fellow Americans say that 00:00:54.030 --> 00:00:56.750 they hesitate. to express their political views 00:00:56.750 --> 00:01:00.109 at work, online, and in their communities because 00:01:00.109 --> 00:01:03.469 they're worried about the consequences. And 76 00:01:03.469 --> 00:01:07.730 % of respondents expressed some level of concern, 00:01:07.989 --> 00:01:11.290 ranging from slightly concerned to extremely 00:01:11.290 --> 00:01:14.269 concerned about the U .S. moving towards a more 00:01:14.269 --> 00:01:17.390 authoritarian form of government. So what's behind 00:01:17.390 --> 00:01:20.609 this? Does it look the same for everyone across 00:01:20.609 --> 00:01:24.609 gender, race? political identity generations? 00:01:25.469 --> 00:01:28.209 We have two guests to talk about this with us 00:01:28.209 --> 00:01:29.909 today who each bring different perspectives. 00:01:30.510 --> 00:01:33.689 We have Stephan Hankin, who is the CEO of Linkin 00:01:33.689 --> 00:01:36.730 Park Strategies, the firm that designed and conducted 00:01:36.730 --> 00:01:40.250 this polling, and Joel Anderson, an award -winning 00:01:40.250 --> 00:01:43.530 multimedia journalist and podcaster with The 00:01:43.530 --> 00:01:47.290 Ringer and Slate. And they are here to talk about 00:01:47.290 --> 00:01:49.709 their perception of what these numbers mean. 00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:52.260 So before we start, I want to share a little 00:01:52.260 --> 00:01:54.980 bit more of their backgrounds. As I mentioned, 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:57.959 Stephan is the founder of Lincoln Park Strategies. 00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:01.519 He has over two decades of experience in market 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:04.579 research, data analytics, communication strategy, 00:02:04.819 --> 00:02:08.259 and public opinion polling and analysis for Fortune 00:02:08.259 --> 00:02:11.479 500 companies, local governments, and political 00:02:11.479 --> 00:02:14.879 candidates. Notably, he was a part of the polling 00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:17.680 team that helped Barack Obama become the 44th 00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:20.360 President of the United States, and he has led 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:24.599 research in 25 countries and all 50 U .S. states. 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:28.280 He's also the co -founder of Trendancy Research, 00:02:28.620 --> 00:02:32.039 a dynamic audience research platform, and his 00:02:32.039 --> 00:02:34.379 work has appeared in the New York Times, the 00:02:34.379 --> 00:02:37.060 Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, and 00:02:37.060 --> 00:02:39.139 the Christian Science Monitor, among other outlets. 00:02:40.030 --> 00:02:42.289 He's also appeared on numerous radio and television 00:02:42.289 --> 00:02:44.909 platforms, both in the United States and Canada. 00:02:46.069 --> 00:02:48.710 He's a native of the Boston area and a graduate 00:02:48.710 --> 00:02:50.830 of the University of Massachusetts at Amherst. 00:02:51.009 --> 00:02:54.090 And the fun part of this, he describes himself 00:02:54.090 --> 00:02:57.370 as a recovering rugby player, an old man hockey 00:02:57.370 --> 00:03:01.129 player, and an aspiring ski bum. So we know he's 00:03:01.129 --> 00:03:05.110 got a great sense of humor. And Joel is a senior 00:03:05.110 --> 00:03:07.349 staff writer at The Ringer and co -host of the 00:03:07.349 --> 00:03:10.659 Press Box podcast. He most recently worked at 00:03:10.659 --> 00:03:13.300 Slate, where he was the host of seasons three, 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:16.939 six, and eight of the award -winning Slow Burn 00:03:16.939 --> 00:03:20.639 Narrative History podcast series, and was a co 00:03:20.639 --> 00:03:23.159 -host of the weekly sports podcast, Hang Up and 00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:26.860 Listen. Prior to that, Joel was a National College 00:03:26.860 --> 00:03:29.860 football writer at ESPN, where he wrote news 00:03:29.860 --> 00:03:33.379 and narrative stories about race. the role of 00:03:33.379 --> 00:03:36.780 race, justice, and sports in American life. He's 00:03:36.780 --> 00:03:38.939 also worked at BuzzFeed, the Atlanta Journal 00:03:38.939 --> 00:03:41.919 Constitution, and the Associated Press, among 00:03:41.919 --> 00:03:46.500 other publications. His piece, The Two Michael 00:03:46.500 --> 00:03:49.780 Sams, which I read and found really compelling, 00:03:49.979 --> 00:03:53.599 was featured in the Best American Sports Writing 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:58.280 of 2015. Joel is a native of Houston and a graduate 00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:01.699 of TCU. Joel and Stephan, thanks so much for 00:04:01.699 --> 00:04:05.080 being here. I really appreciate it. And Stephan, 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:08.900 let's start with you. What prompted you to conduct 00:04:08.900 --> 00:04:11.259 this poll? And will you please share some of 00:04:11.259 --> 00:04:13.379 the overarching findings that you have? And then 00:04:13.379 --> 00:04:15.099 Joel, I'm going to come to you for some reaction. 00:04:17.620 --> 00:04:19.620 Sure. So I think the and first of all, great 00:04:19.620 --> 00:04:21.600 to be here. Thanks for thanks for having me. 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:26.579 And, you know, when we originally had been speaking 00:04:26.579 --> 00:04:28.339 with some some of the folks over at Steady State 00:04:28.339 --> 00:04:30.959 and just getting an understanding of what the 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:33.620 organization was and then, you know, had just 00:04:33.620 --> 00:04:36.269 thrown out the idea of like, you know. It could 00:04:36.269 --> 00:04:38.149 be interesting to see what the American people 00:04:38.149 --> 00:04:41.050 are thinking compared to what these professionals 00:04:41.050 --> 00:04:43.250 who are working in the space or had worked in 00:04:43.250 --> 00:04:46.490 the space are feeling is going on. And just sort 00:04:46.490 --> 00:04:48.709 of seeing how, you know, do those ideals, do 00:04:48.709 --> 00:04:52.110 those feelings jibe? Are they the same? Are they 00:04:52.110 --> 00:04:54.329 different? You know, where's the disconnect? 00:04:54.629 --> 00:04:56.970 And then that just turned into also just like... 00:04:57.360 --> 00:04:58.920 I think it'd be interesting to just sort of see 00:04:58.920 --> 00:05:01.019 where the American people are when it comes to 00:05:01.019 --> 00:05:04.060 our democracy, authoritarianism, as you mentioned, 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:07.939 and then sort of just how is that affecting people's, 00:05:07.939 --> 00:05:09.860 I'll call it, day -to -day lives in terms of 00:05:09.860 --> 00:05:12.620 how comfortable they are in speaking out about 00:05:12.620 --> 00:05:16.339 or just sharing their political ideas. And did 00:05:16.339 --> 00:05:20.420 you see differences across gender, race, and 00:05:20.420 --> 00:05:25.060 generation? Yeah, so, I mean, depending on the 00:05:25.060 --> 00:05:28.079 question, so short answer, yes. And, you know, 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:30.060 that's pretty typical these days. I mean, you 00:05:30.060 --> 00:05:33.399 know, it's more news if the one demographic where 00:05:33.399 --> 00:05:35.779 it's news if there isn't a difference when it 00:05:35.779 --> 00:05:37.300 comes to partisanship, right? And we certainly 00:05:37.300 --> 00:05:41.699 saw that here. And yes, we saw, you know, differences 00:05:41.699 --> 00:05:45.879 in gender, but, you know, and especially on the 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:50.279 question of concern over the United States moving. 00:05:50.699 --> 00:05:54.740 towards the state of democracy, generationally, 00:05:54.740 --> 00:05:56.279 we see a big difference there, right? So the 00:05:56.279 --> 00:05:58.360 older you are, the more likely you are to be 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:01.500 concerned about that. And if we're going down 00:06:01.500 --> 00:06:04.740 to Gen Z, 54 % feel that the state of our democracy 00:06:04.740 --> 00:06:08.620 is strong. That's only 28 % among boomers. Now, 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:12.019 I have theories on why this is, but we definitely 00:06:12.019 --> 00:06:15.019 saw that. And it just moves incrementally when 00:06:15.019 --> 00:06:17.639 you move up the generation scale or move down, 00:06:17.720 --> 00:06:20.439 depending on how you want to look at it. Younger 00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:22.620 you are, less concerned you are. Older you are, 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:25.720 more concerns you have. Okay, thanks. Thanks 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:29.000 for that. And Joel, do you think from your perspective 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:32.420 that this is just a reflection of politics or 00:06:32.420 --> 00:06:36.120 a broader cultural or social anxiety that we're 00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:38.759 experiencing in the country? I think it's all 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:44.000 of those things. I don't know how partisan we're 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:46.220 allowed to get on this thing, but I do think 00:06:46.220 --> 00:06:49.939 that... you know, reflected in the partisan numbers 00:06:49.939 --> 00:06:55.379 you see in Stefan's work, or just the way people 00:06:55.379 --> 00:06:57.360 are responding to the Trump administration. Like, 00:06:57.439 --> 00:07:00.139 Trump voters know that they're winning, right? 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:02.439 And so you see with Republicans, they're like, 00:07:02.500 --> 00:07:04.500 they feel a lot more comfortable saying things 00:07:04.500 --> 00:07:06.000 that they want to see. There's been a lot more 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:08.560 mainstreaming of things that they've long wanted 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:10.980 to talk about. Even if you follow these conversations 00:07:10.980 --> 00:07:14.480 on social media, you know, and the way that Twitter, 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:15.879 for instance, I don't know how many people are 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:18.199 on Twitter, but Twitter is like, used to be sort 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:20.860 of like a town square, like a true place where 00:07:20.860 --> 00:07:22.600 a lot of people came together and shared their 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:25.319 ideas and sometimes argued, sometimes made jokes 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:27.779 or whatever. But you can see like the change 00:07:27.779 --> 00:07:29.949 over the last four or five years. It's like, 00:07:30.029 --> 00:07:32.990 all right, they're mainstreaming slurs. Slurs 00:07:32.990 --> 00:07:37.089 are a lot more likely to go past. Racist jokes, 00:07:37.269 --> 00:07:40.470 things like that. Sexist jokes. So there are 00:07:40.470 --> 00:07:44.209 a lot of people that feel comfortable now that 00:07:44.209 --> 00:07:46.209 maybe they didn't feel as comfortable a decade 00:07:46.209 --> 00:07:50.629 ago before the advent of Trump. And for people 00:07:50.629 --> 00:07:54.290 like me, for instance, we have always sort of 00:07:54.290 --> 00:07:58.329 lived in a world in which it was uncomfortable 00:07:58.329 --> 00:08:00.930 to talk about sports. And I mean that by like 00:08:00.930 --> 00:08:03.329 black people of a particular age, like you were 00:08:03.329 --> 00:08:06.189 sort of, you knew that like. you know if you 00:08:06.189 --> 00:08:08.430 felt something about politics that you might 00:08:08.430 --> 00:08:12.129 not want to share that at work because um you 00:08:12.129 --> 00:08:14.649 know the status quo is always sort of prevails 00:08:14.649 --> 00:08:16.529 in those circumstances that there's no need to 00:08:16.529 --> 00:08:18.870 to challenge or to have a debate with anybody 00:08:18.870 --> 00:08:20.949 about that because that would make people uncomfortable 00:08:20.949 --> 00:08:23.649 you're already sort of climbing your way into 00:08:23.649 --> 00:08:26.689 the room why would you risk it by like having 00:08:26.689 --> 00:08:29.050 a political discussion with people but the thing 00:08:29.050 --> 00:08:31.069 about social media again is that it opened it 00:08:31.069 --> 00:08:32.809 up for everybody people can see the things that 00:08:32.809 --> 00:08:35.450 you're saying whether it was on facebook Instagram 00:08:35.450 --> 00:08:38.370 or whatever, and people can follow those conversations. 00:08:38.570 --> 00:08:41.629 And over the last four or five years, people 00:08:41.629 --> 00:08:43.629 have paid the price. Like a lot of people have 00:08:43.629 --> 00:08:46.669 lost their jobs or been excluded from organizations 00:08:46.669 --> 00:08:49.389 that they used to be in. And so that's what I 00:08:49.389 --> 00:08:53.289 think, you know, it's just like the Trump movement 00:08:53.289 --> 00:08:57.289 to loosen the standards of language has really 00:08:57.289 --> 00:09:00.710 won out. But as a result, a lot of other people 00:09:00.710 --> 00:09:03.090 have paid the price and they feel a lot less 00:09:03.090 --> 00:09:06.080 comfortable talking about it. And you raise an 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:07.720 interesting point that when you talk about the 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:10.080 timeframe where we've seen the difference. One 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:12.700 of the things I'm curious about and you addressed 00:09:12.700 --> 00:09:15.379 it as as a black man and I will tell you coming 00:09:15.379 --> 00:09:18.460 from my background. I self censored because I 00:09:18.460 --> 00:09:20.820 had to because of my profession so I'm curious 00:09:20.820 --> 00:09:23.620 if we can talk a little bit about that because 00:09:23.620 --> 00:09:27.039 and I'm older than you two guys but we've grown 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:30.340 up to varying degrees in in generations that 00:09:31.250 --> 00:09:33.570 expected that you didn't talk about certain things 00:09:33.570 --> 00:09:35.590 outside the home, that you respected certain 00:09:35.590 --> 00:09:38.710 boundaries. So I'm curious, you've talked about 00:09:38.710 --> 00:09:42.110 social media, but can we say or do we know that 00:09:42.110 --> 00:09:46.509 this is self -censoring simply because of a changed 00:09:46.509 --> 00:09:48.889 environment in the country or a combination of 00:09:48.889 --> 00:09:51.250 self -censoring because of how we each grew up? 00:09:51.470 --> 00:09:54.450 So I'd be curious to hear what you each think 00:09:54.450 --> 00:09:56.970 about that. Well, I think it's both because, 00:09:57.009 --> 00:10:00.330 I mean, look. So you talked about the time that 00:10:00.330 --> 00:10:02.370 I worked at ESPN, for instance. When I was at 00:10:02.370 --> 00:10:05.549 ESPN, the conversation that roiled the nation 00:10:05.549 --> 00:10:08.990 was Colin Kaepernick, right? And Colin Kaepernick's 00:10:08.990 --> 00:10:11.470 right to protest, right? And what happened to 00:10:11.470 --> 00:10:13.929 Colin Kaepernick after he protested? Now, a lot 00:10:13.929 --> 00:10:15.610 of people would say, oh, he was near the end 00:10:15.610 --> 00:10:19.009 of his career. He wasn't a viable starting NFL 00:10:19.009 --> 00:10:23.190 quarterback again. But the year after that protest, 00:10:23.250 --> 00:10:26.100 he never played in the NFL again. When I was 00:10:26.100 --> 00:10:29.360 at ESPN, I covered a story about a kid who was 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:33.480 a Division III quarterback in Pennsylvania. He 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:35.240 kneeled during the protest and got kicked off 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:38.080 of his team. So there are people like that. Eric 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:40.200 Reid, who also joined Colin Kaepernick in these 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:43.440 protests. He lost his job. My colleague, Jamel 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:47.059 Hill, who worked at ESPN at the same time as 00:10:47.059 --> 00:10:51.700 me, sent out a tweet that the Trump administration... 00:10:52.580 --> 00:10:55.059 fought back, you know, furiously when they called 00:10:55.059 --> 00:10:58.440 him a white supremacist and he demanded that 00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:00.840 she be fired. Now she got to stick around in 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:02.899 her job for long, but she was basically silenced. 00:11:02.980 --> 00:11:05.000 And then once her contract was up, they moved 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:08.320 her out. So people, I mean, it's hard for people 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:11.179 to look at those examples and say, oh yeah, like 00:11:11.179 --> 00:11:13.539 I've always felt good about my ability to have 00:11:13.539 --> 00:11:15.179 freedom of speech because we knew that people 00:11:15.179 --> 00:11:17.059 were clocking that and that there would be a 00:11:17.059 --> 00:11:19.059 price to pay sometimes if it was political speech 00:11:19.059 --> 00:11:21.039 that was considered unpopular in the moment. 00:11:21.549 --> 00:11:23.570 Right. And that's, and that's, Stephan, I'm going 00:11:23.570 --> 00:11:25.350 to come to you in just a second. And that's another 00:11:25.350 --> 00:11:27.289 interesting thing that I was thinking about is 00:11:27.289 --> 00:11:30.009 because with the swing, as we always do with 00:11:30.009 --> 00:11:33.870 the pendulum going so far away from what is commonly 00:11:33.870 --> 00:11:37.610 referred to as DEI, you know, I wonder myself, 00:11:37.669 --> 00:11:40.570 is that causing more people to be silent and 00:11:40.570 --> 00:11:43.690 more people to be emboldened as well? And is 00:11:43.690 --> 00:11:46.389 that separate? Is that a part of the whole phenomenon 00:11:46.389 --> 00:11:48.909 of this administration? So Stephan, please jump 00:11:48.909 --> 00:11:53.570 in. Yeah, no, and, you know, right, there used 00:11:53.570 --> 00:11:55.850 to be the three third rails, right? Like, you 00:11:55.850 --> 00:11:57.490 don't talk about religion, you don't talk about 00:11:57.490 --> 00:12:00.450 politics. And, you know, at least growing up 00:12:00.450 --> 00:12:01.970 in the Boston area, you don't talk about any 00:12:01.970 --> 00:12:05.129 kind of affinity for the Yankees, or else you're 00:12:05.129 --> 00:12:07.049 getting like, you know, kicked out of the room. 00:12:07.450 --> 00:12:11.590 But, you know, that is all shifted now, right? 00:12:11.710 --> 00:12:14.490 So now people are walking into the room where 00:12:14.490 --> 00:12:18.940 you're not walking in, you know, as... an american 00:12:18.940 --> 00:12:22.100 first or like you know like what you're walking 00:12:22.100 --> 00:12:25.759 in as i'm a trump fan or i'm not a trump fan 00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:29.250 right like we've we've gone full You know, we've 00:12:29.250 --> 00:12:33.250 gone full tribal on on politics. And, you know, 00:12:33.250 --> 00:12:36.649 so now it's just it changed the dynamic of how 00:12:36.649 --> 00:12:38.309 people are thinking about this, how people are 00:12:38.309 --> 00:12:40.490 reacting to it. You know, and we see it in the 00:12:40.490 --> 00:12:42.649 numbers in the survey where, you know, you have 00:12:42.649 --> 00:12:45.350 a third of Republicans or a third of Trump voters 00:12:45.350 --> 00:12:47.169 saying that they're concerned about the democracy. 00:12:47.610 --> 00:12:51.289 But it's sort of even that view doesn't overcome. 00:12:52.350 --> 00:12:56.409 the sort of the support for the tribe right and 00:12:56.409 --> 00:12:58.690 then you know and now you see like going back 00:12:58.690 --> 00:13:00.889 to the Kaepernick thing right like the tribe 00:13:00.889 --> 00:13:04.549 you know it's like white people first right it's 00:13:04.549 --> 00:13:06.470 it's like we're not even if you're sitting there 00:13:06.470 --> 00:13:09.029 and not to say like everyone was silent right 00:13:09.029 --> 00:13:12.529 but Most people were, right? And certainly the 00:13:12.529 --> 00:13:14.169 teams were, right? Where it wasn't, even if you 00:13:14.169 --> 00:13:15.850 were like, well, okay, I kind of agree what he's 00:13:15.850 --> 00:13:18.049 saying or, you know, what he's protesting, like 00:13:18.049 --> 00:13:19.610 we should be having a conversation about this. 00:13:19.710 --> 00:13:21.970 It's like, I'm going with my tribe first and 00:13:21.970 --> 00:13:23.850 therefore I am not going to say anything. And 00:13:23.850 --> 00:13:26.169 then therefore me as the owner of these teams, 00:13:26.309 --> 00:13:28.269 it's more comfortable for me to not piss off 00:13:28.269 --> 00:13:30.629 the tribe. So we're just going to bench him slash 00:13:30.629 --> 00:13:32.990 make sure he doesn't get hired again, right? 00:13:33.049 --> 00:13:34.970 So now, and now we're seeing it with our democracy 00:13:34.970 --> 00:13:38.580 where it's like, hey. It is easier for me to 00:13:38.580 --> 00:13:41.100 be just quiet and keep the tribe happy. And I'm 00:13:41.100 --> 00:13:43.019 not even going to bring up the fact that, you 00:13:43.019 --> 00:13:45.500 know, our norms and our laws are just crumbling 00:13:45.500 --> 00:13:48.159 in front of us. And that's a really important 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:52.039 point is because that's my background is what's 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:55.539 been particularly concerning for me. And it was 00:13:55.539 --> 00:13:57.580 interesting to see in some of your poll results 00:13:57.580 --> 00:14:01.519 is that the respect for the rule of law by at 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:04.620 least some people. has gone away. I mean, we've 00:14:04.620 --> 00:14:06.720 even got public figures saying, okay, we're not 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:08.720 enforcing those laws anymore. We're only going 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:11.320 to enforce these laws. And, you know, going back 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:14.419 to your world, Joel, in sports, everybody knows 00:14:14.419 --> 00:14:17.639 in the game what the rules are. They know what's 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:19.399 going to happen. They've got a referee. If you 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:21.980 do this, this is going to happen. And so, you 00:14:21.980 --> 00:14:24.120 know, one of the concerns I have, and I wonder 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:27.179 if it was showing up, Stefan, in the polling, 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:31.899 is that when The rules change and nobody knows 00:14:31.899 --> 00:14:33.740 the rules have changed. How can you play the 00:14:33.740 --> 00:14:36.559 game fairly? And I have really deep concerns 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:41.440 about the diminishing of respect for the rule 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:44.820 of law. And I think that's part of the question 00:14:44.820 --> 00:14:47.759 you had, Stefan, on democracy and the erosion 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:50.559 of democracy. So I'd love you both to weigh in 00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:55.450 on that. Well, yeah, I mean, I think it's. pretty 00:14:55.450 --> 00:14:57.250 clear that we're sort of beyond the protection 00:14:57.250 --> 00:15:00.169 of the law in these instances. I mean, look, 00:15:00.330 --> 00:15:03.190 the Trump administration doesn't have a lot of 00:15:03.190 --> 00:15:05.669 respect for the First Amendment, it seems, right? 00:15:05.809 --> 00:15:08.590 I could just go through a list of things. Remember, 00:15:08.850 --> 00:15:11.769 they banned the Associated Press from the Oval 00:15:11.769 --> 00:15:14.450 Office and Air Force One for refusing to call. 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:18.700 The Gulf of Mexico, the Gulf of America, trying 00:15:18.700 --> 00:15:23.019 to shut down PBS and NPR. The Trump administration 00:15:23.019 --> 00:15:25.200 has sued The Wall Street Journal, The New York 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:28.559 Times, BBC. Just recently, the FBI director, 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:33.519 Kash Patel, filed a $250 million defamation lawsuit 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:37.899 against The Atlantic. The war over Jimmy Kimmel. 00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:40.940 OK, like, you know, in Jimmy Kimmel's ability 00:15:40.940 --> 00:15:44.899 to do a night a night show and make jokes about 00:15:44.899 --> 00:15:47.240 the administration or whatever, like that is 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:49.659 being contested. And even more like I'm a journalist 00:15:49.659 --> 00:15:52.840 now. Right. So it was I guess it was a couple 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:55.159 of months ago that the FBI searched the home 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:57.440 of a Washington Post reporter and seized their 00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:01.080 phone and computers. Unheard of. Like, yeah, 00:16:01.220 --> 00:16:03.240 that's just something that just did not. I mean, 00:16:03.259 --> 00:16:08.029 again, there it. I'm not going to say that that's 00:16:08.029 --> 00:16:11.029 unprecedented, but the way in which it was enacted 00:16:11.029 --> 00:16:13.169 and the way it was executed is something that 00:16:13.169 --> 00:16:15.269 I've not noticed in the time that I've been a 00:16:15.269 --> 00:16:17.429 professional journalist, where I've felt like, 00:16:17.509 --> 00:16:19.509 oh, if I report something or if I have a source 00:16:19.509 --> 00:16:21.970 that will do this, that the administration may 00:16:21.970 --> 00:16:25.509 come after me and try to make me a target. So 00:16:25.509 --> 00:16:29.090 I think people are rationally responding to the 00:16:29.090 --> 00:16:31.429 threats that they see out there, right? There's 00:16:31.429 --> 00:16:35.399 all this evidence that... you theoretically have 00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:38.220 your First Amendment rights, right? Which doesn't 00:16:38.220 --> 00:16:40.840 mean, like, the way that the war has been fought 00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:43.299 in the past is, like, people thought that the 00:16:43.299 --> 00:16:45.600 First Amendment protected people from being mad 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:48.440 at you or wanting to associate with you outside 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:50.480 of work. That's not what it is. It was whether 00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:55.539 or not the government could attack you or punish 00:16:55.539 --> 00:16:58.039 you for availing yourself of your First Amendment 00:16:58.039 --> 00:17:00.019 rights. And that is exactly what is going on 00:17:00.019 --> 00:17:01.720 right now. So people are looking at that and 00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:04.130 they're saying, hell yeah, I'm afraid. hell yeah 00:17:04.130 --> 00:17:06.049 this just seems like an authoritarian country 00:17:06.049 --> 00:17:09.269 hell yeah uh i'm worried about the slide away 00:17:09.269 --> 00:17:11.609 from democracy it only makes sense because that's 00:17:11.609 --> 00:17:15.430 what this administration has shown jeffin do 00:17:15.430 --> 00:17:19.470 you have thoughts yeah no i mean agree completely 00:17:19.470 --> 00:17:22.880 right and i mean then the other piece of this 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.619 is also right that i think a lot of folks think 00:17:25.619 --> 00:17:28.819 about authoritarianism as it just happens overnight 00:17:28.819 --> 00:17:32.200 right like hitler hitler gets put in charge brown 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:33.880 shirts are marching through the you know goose 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:35.720 stepping through the streets the next day and 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:39.720 it's it is 100 not how it works right like this 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:44.599 it is a multi -year slow progression into the 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:48.079 the full system right and i mean this is a playbook 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:50.839 and we see each of the stages being hit and you 00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:53.099 know certainly silencing critics like silencing 00:17:53.099 --> 00:17:56.039 the media is you know chapter two or chapter 00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:58.380 three right like this is early stage stuff so 00:17:58.380 --> 00:18:00.720 that you can get away with more and more if no 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:02.859 one is actually looking at this and reporting 00:18:02.859 --> 00:18:06.900 at it on it so you know this is we've seen this 00:18:06.900 --> 00:18:10.700 happen before right but but there as long as 00:18:10.700 --> 00:18:13.920 a majority of people think it doesn't affect 00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:17.140 them or it's not that big a deal I'm not going 00:18:17.140 --> 00:18:19.980 to stand up and say anything, you know, the longer 00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:25.539 this runway can go. And you, Stephan, you mentioned 00:18:25.539 --> 00:18:28.480 to me in an earlier conversation in this context, 00:18:28.519 --> 00:18:31.759 too, something that your mom shared with you. 00:18:31.819 --> 00:18:34.359 And would you be comfortable sharing that here 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:37.500 again? Sure. I mean, you know, so my mom was 00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:41.960 born in 1938 in Germany, in Berlin. You know, 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:46.079 obviously was young during the war, but. you 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:48.359 know has has vivid memories of what what that 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:50.539 was like and i mean i would say she's probably 00:18:50.539 --> 00:18:54.059 one of the more uh depressed people when it comes 00:18:54.059 --> 00:18:55.779 to what's going on in this country right now 00:18:55.779 --> 00:18:58.119 just because it's like you know i lived through 00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:00.180 this i lived through the aftermath of it you 00:19:00.180 --> 00:19:03.500 know the fact that we're even Here again is just 00:19:03.500 --> 00:19:05.539 you know shocking unless you know, it's less 00:19:05.539 --> 00:19:08.680 than a hundred years ago That you know, we're 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:11.019 we're yet again, you know dealing with this and 00:19:11.019 --> 00:19:13.660 it's it's not just in you know The United States 00:19:13.660 --> 00:19:17.240 that you see this sort of far -right Whatever 00:19:17.240 --> 00:19:18.740 you want to call this movement, right? Like we're 00:19:18.740 --> 00:19:22.259 seeing it happening in Europe and you know to 00:19:22.259 --> 00:19:25.059 different degrees But you know, but here we are 00:19:25.059 --> 00:19:27.980 again Refusing to learn the lessons of the past 00:19:27.980 --> 00:19:31.299 and just going along with it because you know 00:19:32.320 --> 00:19:34.599 a few, you know, a handful of reasons of why 00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:37.299 people are on board with this. But a lot of it 00:19:37.299 --> 00:19:40.799 is just, you know, the economic anxiety that 00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:42.759 a lot of folks have. And now you have leaders 00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:44.819 who are willing to step in and instead of trying 00:19:44.819 --> 00:19:46.720 to solve problems, let's just point the finger 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:48.859 and blame people and then come along. And by 00:19:48.859 --> 00:19:50.960 the way, you know, we're just going to turn this 00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:54.500 into my, you know, my, at least in the U S right. 00:19:54.579 --> 00:19:56.839 Like, it's like, Hey, how can I, how can I make 00:19:56.839 --> 00:19:58.980 myself and my family richer on the way down? 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:01.640 That's all I care about. And, you know, Here 00:20:01.640 --> 00:20:03.839 we are. But just the fact that, again, we we 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:05.680 know what the playbook is. We've seen it happening 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:09.619 and we're just letting it happen. Well, and I 00:20:09.619 --> 00:20:12.019 don't know if you guys know this, but I actually 00:20:12.019 --> 00:20:14.519 lived and worked in authoritarian countries in 00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:16.680 different parts of the world during my FBI career. 00:20:17.259 --> 00:20:20.779 So I've seen it up close. I know what it looks 00:20:20.779 --> 00:20:24.599 like to be muzzled. I know what it looks like 00:20:24.599 --> 00:20:27.730 to be. As I was literally like ambushed in a 00:20:27.730 --> 00:20:30.329 situation where I was anticipating a one -on 00:20:30.329 --> 00:20:32.369 -one meeting with the minister of justice in 00:20:32.369 --> 00:20:35.410 a particular country that was incredibly corrupt. 00:20:35.529 --> 00:20:37.690 And it was in the context of an American woman 00:20:37.690 --> 00:20:40.329 who was murdered. And we were there to conduct 00:20:40.329 --> 00:20:44.150 an investigation. And the ambassador and I fully 00:20:44.150 --> 00:20:46.069 expected to have the meeting with her and the 00:20:46.069 --> 00:20:50.549 heads of the military and the police. And as 00:20:50.549 --> 00:20:53.720 we opened the door, it was like. stepping onto 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:56.539 the red carpet for the Oscars. There was flashbulbs. 00:20:56.539 --> 00:20:59.460 There was everything going off. And this minister 00:20:59.460 --> 00:21:01.980 of justice then insisted that we conduct this 00:21:01.980 --> 00:21:05.700 meeting and I answer what she wanted to ask me 00:21:05.700 --> 00:21:08.859 in front of media. And to have stopped that thing 00:21:08.859 --> 00:21:12.859 would have created a far bigger issue than not. 00:21:13.589 --> 00:21:15.890 So I've lived it. I mean, I had to be concerned 00:21:15.890 --> 00:21:18.470 for the safety of the team that I had there, 00:21:18.609 --> 00:21:21.609 pay for extra security, realizing that another 00:21:21.609 --> 00:21:24.309 $10 their way and they'd sell us to somebody. 00:21:24.769 --> 00:21:27.490 So I've lived there. I know what that looks like. 00:21:27.549 --> 00:21:30.630 And it's disturbing to me. And I won't go too 00:21:30.630 --> 00:21:32.990 far into it. But on the positive side, I also 00:21:32.990 --> 00:21:35.569 lived in a country that was reversing itself. 00:21:36.140 --> 00:21:39.279 from a very authoritarian state to a less authoritarian 00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:42.000 one. And people would still complain. And I would 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:45.200 say to my colleagues, look, you're allowed to 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:47.500 say it out loud. And the media is actually reporting 00:21:47.500 --> 00:21:51.460 what happened. That's good. That's a positive 00:21:51.460 --> 00:21:54.599 development. So it's troubling for me having 00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:57.099 lived through that. Joel, you wanted to jump 00:21:57.099 --> 00:21:59.759 in? Yeah, no, I mean, I guess the thing is that 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:02.039 that sounds horrible. And I guess the issue is 00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:05.650 like, is it? too far gone right like like how 00:22:05.650 --> 00:22:09.430 far down the line are we like how and stuff i 00:22:09.430 --> 00:22:11.509 mean you have the data that shows this right 00:22:11.509 --> 00:22:13.930 about like the the actual concern but i guess 00:22:13.930 --> 00:22:16.069 lauren in your experience and you've seen these 00:22:16.069 --> 00:22:19.009 countries or whatever i'm i'm more curious about 00:22:19.009 --> 00:22:22.539 okay like we know that the rule of law is still 00:22:22.539 --> 00:22:25.819 being steadily eroded. We know that people's 00:22:25.819 --> 00:22:27.920 First Amendment rights are being trampled on. 00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:30.839 We know that the government is feeling itself, 00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:33.299 right? Like, they feel like we can start a war 00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:36.599 with Iran. We can kill people off the coast in 00:22:36.599 --> 00:22:39.119 boats just because we said they're drug dealers, 00:22:39.299 --> 00:22:42.920 right? Like, we can kill them without any recrimination. 00:22:43.420 --> 00:22:46.039 But I guess they're just like, is it possible 00:22:46.039 --> 00:22:48.319 to turn it around at this point? Because my big 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:50.559 fear is that, oh, you know what? Like, maybe... 00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:55.640 We're already too far gone. I mean, I think it's. 00:22:57.519 --> 00:22:59.920 I don't think we're too far gone, but I think 00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:03.259 there has to be. I mean, A, we need an opposition. 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:08.619 Right. And I'm going to say we don't have an 00:23:08.619 --> 00:23:13.079 overly unified slash organized opposition to 00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:15.079 what's going on. Right. In a real meaningful 00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:18.210 way. I mean, sure, you get people to. chime in 00:23:18.210 --> 00:23:19.750 on social media and stuff like that but actually 00:23:19.750 --> 00:23:22.950 like doing the sort of the foundation work of 00:23:22.950 --> 00:23:24.990 of what needs to happen but then i think there 00:23:24.990 --> 00:23:28.230 also needs to be an understanding and you know 00:23:28.230 --> 00:23:30.609 now some of this takes or a lot of this takes 00:23:30.609 --> 00:23:33.970 leadership like an understanding of look we're 00:23:33.970 --> 00:23:35.890 gonna have to rebuild and rebuilding doesn't 00:23:35.890 --> 00:23:38.569 happen in a week or two right so it's like there 00:23:38.569 --> 00:23:40.589 there is so much that's gonna have to get fixed 00:23:40.589 --> 00:23:43.490 once You know, once we have the current administration, 00:23:43.710 --> 00:23:46.170 hopefully they will actually leave office. But, 00:23:46.230 --> 00:23:49.309 you know, it is going to take years to undo a 00:23:49.309 --> 00:23:51.430 lot of the things that have been done and then 00:23:51.430 --> 00:23:53.589 also put in place guardrails to make sure it 00:23:53.589 --> 00:23:56.250 doesn't happen again. But in the meantime, you 00:23:56.250 --> 00:23:58.950 know, the public wants problems fixed that direct 00:23:58.950 --> 00:24:01.430 their more direct day to day life. You know, 00:24:01.430 --> 00:24:05.069 we just saw this in the elections in the UK where, 00:24:05.210 --> 00:24:09.119 you know. brexit complete disaster then conservatives 00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:11.119 you know run their austerity programs like you 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:14.160 know everything's just going to complete crap 00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:17.759 can i say crap i can say crap right um you know 00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:21.680 okay and then um you know so and then they get 00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:24.900 they get sent out of office landslide victory 00:24:24.900 --> 00:24:27.759 for uh for labor and two years later voters are 00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:29.759 like what have you done for me right so it's 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:31.839 like it's like look and i'm not saying oh labor 00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:33.619 has been perfect or anything like that but the 00:24:33.619 --> 00:24:37.220 the patience level of the average citizen needs 00:24:37.220 --> 00:24:40.039 to there needs to be sort of an understanding 00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:43.339 of what needs to happen and why um and what that 00:24:43.339 --> 00:24:45.380 what that looks like in terms of you know and 00:24:45.380 --> 00:24:47.420 we want to bring it back to a sports analogy 00:24:47.420 --> 00:24:50.400 right like you know you've you want a few championships 00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:54.059 your your payroll is like through the roof you 00:24:54.059 --> 00:24:56.180 you like go like a bunch of star players and 00:24:56.180 --> 00:24:57.839 it's like look you're not going to win the championship 00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:00.000 two years later like you there there's a five 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.160 -year rebuilding plan if the fans understand 00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:04.180 what the plan is and see the plan in place they're 00:25:04.180 --> 00:25:08.299 usually more uh patient with with what's happening 00:25:08.299 --> 00:25:10.859 and you know i think that that needs to start 00:25:10.859 --> 00:25:12.660 happening like we need we need to start the rebuilding 00:25:12.660 --> 00:25:15.200 process now and get the leadership in place in 00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:18.740 order to be able to make it happen One thing 00:25:18.740 --> 00:25:22.819 that I found really interesting, and Joel, I 00:25:22.819 --> 00:25:24.579 really would be interested in your take on this, 00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:26.660 and that is there were really interesting differences 00:25:26.660 --> 00:25:29.720 with Gen Z. Now, we all lived at another time. 00:25:29.819 --> 00:25:31.880 We know when there's a functional Congress. We 00:25:31.880 --> 00:25:34.680 know when there's an executive branch that's 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:38.740 not overreaching. We know that there is respect 00:25:38.740 --> 00:25:40.839 for the rule of law. This has all happened. But 00:25:40.839 --> 00:25:43.160 when we look at Gen Z. You know, their lives 00:25:43.160 --> 00:25:46.059 began after 9 -11, so they have no frame of reference. 00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:49.519 And I was really fascinated by the fact that 00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:53.619 of their numbers, Stefan, which was they have 00:25:53.619 --> 00:25:55.819 a high degree of self -censoring, but they also 00:25:55.819 --> 00:25:58.640 have a high degree of confidence in the strength 00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:02.700 of our democracy. And that to me was was startling. 00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:06.539 So I'm curious about what's going on there and 00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:09.960 wonder what each of you think about that. Well, 00:26:10.119 --> 00:26:12.500 I mean, go ahead, Stefan, I'm sorry. No, no, 00:26:12.500 --> 00:26:15.839 go ahead. Go, go. No, because I think boomers 00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:18.160 have lived in a different America. They've lived 00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:20.099 in different Americas, for instance, right? Like 00:26:20.099 --> 00:26:22.940 my parents, they grew up in the Jim Crow South. 00:26:23.259 --> 00:26:26.859 So their parents could not vote, right? Or if 00:26:26.859 --> 00:26:30.059 they were voting, their right to do so was very 00:26:30.059 --> 00:26:32.660 much contested. My parents went to segregated 00:26:32.660 --> 00:26:36.380 schools. I learned about that through them. And 00:26:36.380 --> 00:26:38.619 I was born 10 years later, like right after the, 00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:41.259 you know, most of the civil rights legislation 00:26:41.259 --> 00:26:43.480 in this country was passed. So you could argue 00:26:43.480 --> 00:26:46.700 that America wasn't not fully a democracy then. 00:26:46.779 --> 00:26:49.380 So people with living memory of that can see 00:26:49.380 --> 00:26:51.140 what is happening, particularly even around voting 00:26:51.140 --> 00:26:53.460 rights, like just in the past couple of weeks, 00:26:53.559 --> 00:26:56.619 right? Like the ability for people to have politically 00:26:56.619 --> 00:26:59.160 represent themselves in the South is being stripped 00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:01.160 away from a bunch of them. And so people can 00:27:01.160 --> 00:27:04.069 look at that and say, oh man. I know that seems 00:27:04.069 --> 00:27:06.869 very familiar. Whereas Gen Z, they don't know 00:27:06.869 --> 00:27:08.670 anything else. They've never lived in another 00:27:08.670 --> 00:27:12.190 country, right? They don't know their memory, 00:27:12.529 --> 00:27:14.529 like even their memory of being able to drop 00:27:14.529 --> 00:27:16.849 people off at the airport gate. Like they don't 00:27:16.849 --> 00:27:20.809 have that, right? The same is true with women. 00:27:20.930 --> 00:27:24.809 I mean, the women of Gen Z have no idea, much 00:27:24.809 --> 00:27:26.769 as you talk about from a race perspective and 00:27:26.769 --> 00:27:30.009 a voting rights perspective, women have no idea. 00:27:30.460 --> 00:27:32.200 They're getting an idea now that Roe v. Wade 00:27:32.200 --> 00:27:35.420 was overturned, but they have zero idea of what 00:27:35.420 --> 00:27:38.460 it was like of a woman of my generation, for 00:27:38.460 --> 00:27:41.359 example, to have to fight her way into every 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:44.539 room, which is fine. Those are my choices. But 00:27:44.539 --> 00:27:46.539 without that frame of reference, and I have a 00:27:46.539 --> 00:27:49.259 friend who says, know your history, whoever you 00:27:49.259 --> 00:27:51.759 are, know where you came from and know your history, 00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:54.720 and be sure that you incorporate that as to who 00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:56.779 you are as a person and how you move in the world. 00:27:57.879 --> 00:28:00.920 Yeah, that's right. I mean, who would have thought 00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:03.619 that we would just, I mean, maybe Republicans 00:28:03.619 --> 00:28:06.079 and various conservatives knew, but we live in 00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:09.579 a world right now in this country where it's 00:28:09.579 --> 00:28:12.119 not a given that you can get. an abortion. Like, 00:28:12.180 --> 00:28:14.660 I mean, in Texas, my home state, a place that 00:28:14.660 --> 00:28:18.200 I would have moved if not for the changes to 00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:20.980 Roe v. Wade and abortion laws there, there's 00:28:20.980 --> 00:28:24.000 like the maternal mortality rate has skyrocketed 00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:25.960 in the last few years, right? And I was like, 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:29.700 my wife, we're old. We're old parents of young 00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:32.279 children, okay? And so when we were thinking 00:28:32.279 --> 00:28:34.980 of where to move, I was like, well, I could not 00:28:34.980 --> 00:28:37.339 stand for my wife to live in a state where if 00:28:37.339 --> 00:28:39.420 the pregnancy went wrong, which sometimes happens 00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:42.000 with women who have children over the age of 00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:44.960 40, and not be able to have access to the medical 00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:49.740 care that people have in California, where I 00:28:49.740 --> 00:28:52.720 moved from. So, yeah, I mean, it's... Again, 00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:56.220 Gen Z, they don't they're witnessing this. They're 00:28:56.220 --> 00:28:59.099 getting to see what the consequences are of thinking 00:28:59.099 --> 00:29:01.099 that democracy is something that you don't always 00:29:01.099 --> 00:29:02.920 have to protect, that your rights are something 00:29:02.920 --> 00:29:05.240 that you always have to fight for because people 00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:07.480 are working to undermine them. But, yeah, they 00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:09.380 don't know. But I mean, obviously, they're going 00:29:09.380 --> 00:29:14.259 to find out. Yeah, no, 100 percent. Right. And 00:29:14.259 --> 00:29:18.789 now, you know, the. boomers and you see the much 00:29:18.789 --> 00:29:22.970 higher concern among boomers, but not every single 00:29:22.970 --> 00:29:25.730 boomer, right? But they were around or certainly 00:29:25.730 --> 00:29:29.150 aware or it wasn't far back history of the civil 00:29:29.150 --> 00:29:33.849 rights era and Montgomery bus boycott and Martin 00:29:33.849 --> 00:29:35.910 Luther King and everything that was happening 00:29:35.910 --> 00:29:38.109 in the late 60s. And again, whether they were 00:29:38.109 --> 00:29:39.769 sort of cognizant of everything that was going 00:29:39.769 --> 00:29:43.839 on, but it was a very recent history for... Most, 00:29:43.859 --> 00:29:45.640 if not all boomers, if they didn't experience 00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:48.119 themselves. Right. So now you're getting into 00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:50.720 a generation under no fault of their own. Obviously, 00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:52.880 it's the one you were born of. Like, this is 00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:54.740 this is something for the history books. Right. 00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:57.039 And, you know, depending on where you grew up, 00:29:57.059 --> 00:29:59.500 you know, depends on how much you learned about 00:29:59.500 --> 00:30:01.920 it and things like that. But I mean, to Joel's 00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:04.480 point, I mean, God, in two weeks, we've we've 00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:08.319 rolled back to. i mean we're going past the 1960s 00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:11.240 and back to like the late 1800s of like how do 00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:13.140 we make sure like black people don't vote in 00:30:13.140 --> 00:30:14.900 the south or that their their vote doesn't matter 00:30:14.900 --> 00:30:18.000 and it's just i mean mind -boggling that you 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:20.940 know this is where we are but then back to the 00:30:20.940 --> 00:30:24.019 authoritarian piece of it right i mean you know 00:30:24.019 --> 00:30:27.180 the other thing that we have and Part of this 00:30:27.180 --> 00:30:32.059 is what happened in 2016 with not allowing Obama 00:30:32.059 --> 00:30:34.380 to put a Supreme Court justice that he absolutely 00:30:34.380 --> 00:30:36.220 should have, and then Republicans switching the 00:30:36.220 --> 00:30:40.440 rules again in 2020. We now have a Supreme Court 00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:44.680 that is laying the groundwork for... the authoritarian 00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:47.660 behavior. And they already gave him a get out 00:30:47.660 --> 00:30:50.700 of jail free card where they said that, you know, 00:30:50.700 --> 00:30:52.480 the president of the United States can't be held 00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:54.779 responsible for anything that he does as president. 00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:57.380 So it's like all the cards are coming together 00:30:57.380 --> 00:31:02.460 in a insane way of, you know, of why this landscape 00:31:02.460 --> 00:31:05.680 now exists. But yeah, but like, you know, Gen 00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:08.319 Z just, they don't. Again, it's not their fault, 00:31:08.420 --> 00:31:09.799 right? They just don't know better because they 00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:11.740 just haven't lived through anything. And just, 00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:14.359 you know, like 50 years ago, not even, yeah, 00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:17.960 you know, we kicked out a president because of, 00:31:17.980 --> 00:31:22.539 you know, him paying burglars to break into the 00:31:22.539 --> 00:31:24.460 headquarters of the DNC. And this was a bridge 00:31:24.460 --> 00:31:26.680 too far for Republicans, right? Republicans were 00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:30.380 going to vote him out. And that is like barely 00:31:30.380 --> 00:31:34.259 a blip on. what is happening in the current administration. 00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:38.279 And, you know, I mean, even January 6th, right? 00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:41.079 Like, you had, what, only five or six Republicans 00:31:41.079 --> 00:31:45.200 saying, no, this is not okay. And the rest were 00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:47.480 like, no, this is fine. This is not an impeachable 00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:48.980 offense. We're not going to kick you out of office. 00:31:49.140 --> 00:31:50.759 And, you know, that's where we are as a country 00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:54.440 now. Just in the last 24 hours, Trump got out 00:31:54.440 --> 00:31:58.349 of a $100 million IRS fine, got... secured future 00:31:58.349 --> 00:32:00.650 immunity from all future tax investigations, 00:32:00.829 --> 00:32:02.670 not just for himself, but for his family and 00:32:02.670 --> 00:32:06.309 friends. He created a $1 .8 billion slush fund 00:32:06.309 --> 00:32:09.589 for people that, a law break, like the January 00:32:09.589 --> 00:32:11.230 6th supporters or whatever, right? Like, which 00:32:11.230 --> 00:32:13.630 is, I mean, it's crazy. And then he was reported 00:32:13.630 --> 00:32:16.460 for - insider trading, likely insider trading, 00:32:16.660 --> 00:32:19.539 worth nearly a billion dollars. Any of this stuff 00:32:19.539 --> 00:32:22.460 at any other point in our lives would have been 00:32:22.460 --> 00:32:24.180 impeachable. And people would have been like, 00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:26.599 oh, we can't stand for that. Even the mere suggestion 00:32:26.599 --> 00:32:29.059 of it is serious enough that we should have an 00:32:29.059 --> 00:32:31.880 investigation into it. And it just doesn't appear 00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:35.500 to be the bandwidth or the interest or maybe 00:32:35.500 --> 00:32:38.440 the political might. It really just seems like 00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:40.599 there's not enough political will to do something 00:32:40.599 --> 00:32:43.880 about it. So, yeah, I mean, we're... I do think 00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:46.140 it's political will. And I want to bring this 00:32:46.140 --> 00:32:48.799 to something as well, because obviously the FBI, 00:32:48.839 --> 00:32:51.420 an institution that I spent three decades of 00:32:51.420 --> 00:32:55.480 my life in, has been torn apart, disrupted. They 00:32:55.480 --> 00:32:58.119 fired people without cause, without following 00:32:58.119 --> 00:33:00.640 an internal process. They've stripped away the 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:03.059 expertise that we need in particularly complex 00:33:03.059 --> 00:33:07.000 times like going to war in Iran. And that matters. 00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:10.670 And yet we have a very. diverse audience that 00:33:10.670 --> 00:33:13.009 listens to this podcast. And so I'd like to touch 00:33:13.009 --> 00:33:14.690 on that a little bit, because as I shared in 00:33:14.690 --> 00:33:17.170 an email with both of you, I grew up a Republican. 00:33:17.609 --> 00:33:20.450 Yeah. President Ways and Means Chairman of Teenage 00:33:20.450 --> 00:33:22.289 Republicans for the state of New Jersey. That 00:33:22.289 --> 00:33:25.710 was my life for a long time. But I am deeply 00:33:25.710 --> 00:33:28.369 distressed with what's going on now, which is 00:33:28.369 --> 00:33:30.829 why I'm doing this podcast, why I'm writing. 00:33:31.190 --> 00:33:34.490 But I always like us to be able to do in these 00:33:34.490 --> 00:33:37.509 podcasts is speak to the American people. And 00:33:37.509 --> 00:33:39.910 why this matters for them. We're having a great, 00:33:39.950 --> 00:33:43.009 robust discussion among us. But why does it matter 00:33:43.009 --> 00:33:46.450 to them? What steps can they take? And, you know, 00:33:46.470 --> 00:33:49.710 how can we do a more effective job? We that, 00:33:49.750 --> 00:33:52.289 well, I'm going to be careful here about how 00:33:52.289 --> 00:33:54.829 I say we, but how can all of us do a better job 00:33:54.829 --> 00:33:57.970 at encouraging open conversation and dialogue 00:33:57.970 --> 00:34:01.250 without judgment with one another? And what sorts 00:34:01.250 --> 00:34:04.390 of things might each of you? choose to share 00:34:04.390 --> 00:34:08.170 to bring more people into the conversation including 00:34:08.170 --> 00:34:11.389 those who are mega supporters and who may be 00:34:11.389 --> 00:34:14.170 listening to some of these episodes i mean i 00:34:14.170 --> 00:34:16.829 think you know one place i would start and i 00:34:16.829 --> 00:34:19.809 would recommend everyone read is george washington's 00:34:19.809 --> 00:34:22.550 farewell speech um and i am not going to try 00:34:22.550 --> 00:34:24.909 to quote it because i will fail miserably but 00:34:24.909 --> 00:34:28.119 like one of the big parts of that is just talking 00:34:28.119 --> 00:34:30.579 about basically what happens if you put party 00:34:30.579 --> 00:34:33.300 first right if you put party in front of country 00:34:33.300 --> 00:34:36.559 if you put party in front of your own if if you 00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:40.289 make your you know, your self -interest, only 00:34:40.289 --> 00:34:43.449 what is good for the party, what happens to this 00:34:43.449 --> 00:34:45.710 country. And he talked about it just, it opens 00:34:45.710 --> 00:34:48.710 the door for tyranny. It moves us back to what 00:34:48.710 --> 00:34:50.829 we just fought, you know, an entire war against 00:34:50.829 --> 00:34:53.829 to gain our freedom, right? And that's where 00:34:53.829 --> 00:34:56.030 we are right now. So I think, you know, one of 00:34:56.030 --> 00:35:00.150 the big pieces also is like this, this can't 00:35:00.150 --> 00:35:02.469 be Democrat versus Republican. This has to be 00:35:02.469 --> 00:35:08.050 like America versus not. right you know and and 00:35:08.050 --> 00:35:11.889 like in you know or democracy versus authoritarianism 00:35:11.889 --> 00:35:14.329 or you know pick your sort of your your framing 00:35:14.329 --> 00:35:17.070 here but it we got to get out of the party framing 00:35:17.070 --> 00:35:20.510 and we and we need to start moving forward like 00:35:20.510 --> 00:35:22.550 we're talking about before about like look we 00:35:22.550 --> 00:35:24.289 need to end it we need to fix it and we need 00:35:24.289 --> 00:35:28.190 to rebuild better on on the back end um but we 00:35:28.190 --> 00:35:31.150 but job one is to stop this now and that's not 00:35:31.150 --> 00:35:33.309 just going against republicans or supporting 00:35:33.309 --> 00:35:37.460 democrats it's it's going against authoritarian 00:35:37.460 --> 00:35:40.920 movement and the trajectory that we are on and 00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:44.719 how just about everything just is really not 00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:47.019 about American ideals or what America stands 00:35:47.019 --> 00:35:50.119 for. It's for what Trump stands for. And, you 00:35:50.119 --> 00:35:51.920 know, if you are if you're supporting that, you 00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:56.000 are you are. You are revering for false idols. 00:35:56.679 --> 00:35:59.280 So, you know, whether, you know, you have a religious 00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:03.019 background, a you know, you're you're law enforcement. 00:36:03.079 --> 00:36:04.900 What what have you right there? Everything is 00:36:04.900 --> 00:36:07.139 wrong here. And, you know, we need to come together 00:36:07.139 --> 00:36:13.159 to fight against what is happening. Yeah, I mean, 00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:15.440 I think to some point it can't be Democratic 00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:17.219 versus Republican, even though that is an important 00:36:17.219 --> 00:36:19.179 element, like Democrats are going to have to 00:36:19.179 --> 00:36:22.039 win some elections for this to change. But you. 00:36:22.409 --> 00:36:25.530 He's right in that like this, the idea that a 00:36:25.530 --> 00:36:28.710 political party can't lose, otherwise they will 00:36:28.710 --> 00:36:31.650 no longer be in power. That has to change because 00:36:31.650 --> 00:36:34.329 inevitably the pendulum is going to swing back 00:36:34.329 --> 00:36:37.309 again, right? People move on, they get disinterested 00:36:37.309 --> 00:36:39.469 and other people find a cause to get energized 00:36:39.469 --> 00:36:44.130 about and they vote for it. And so I think it's 00:36:44.130 --> 00:36:46.650 probably not a surprise to people that I'm, you 00:36:46.650 --> 00:36:50.889 know, more on the left, but we do need like the 00:36:50.889 --> 00:36:53.719 right to be. to feel like they can lose power 00:36:53.719 --> 00:36:56.300 and that like, it's going to be okay. They're 00:36:56.300 --> 00:36:57.920 like, we're living in a country where everybody 00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:01.360 wants the best for each other. And, you know, 00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:03.719 we're going to move forward, but, but right now 00:37:03.719 --> 00:37:05.159 it doesn't feel that way, but you were asking 00:37:05.159 --> 00:37:07.119 about like what you can do. And it's really interesting. 00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:11.739 A few weeks ago, Easter, I took my kid. I'm not, 00:37:11.800 --> 00:37:14.579 I'm not a. regular church -going person anymore. 00:37:14.780 --> 00:37:16.980 My parents made me go a little bit, and I went 00:37:16.980 --> 00:37:18.440 to Catholic school, but things have changed. 00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:20.719 I'm older, whatever. But I've got two small kids, 00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:23.179 a four -year -old and an almost two -year -old, 00:37:23.219 --> 00:37:25.019 and we went to an Easter egg hunt at a local 00:37:25.019 --> 00:37:27.880 church. And we had a great time. We were there 00:37:27.880 --> 00:37:29.480 for like an hour and a half, and I was thinking, 00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:32.440 I was like, we might need to join church. And 00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:35.360 it wasn't just because I thought that I need 00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:38.760 more God. I probably do, right? But I was also 00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:40.460 thinking, I was like, oh, these people are really 00:37:40.460 --> 00:37:42.460 great. These are people that... I think I could 00:37:42.460 --> 00:37:45.139 build community with, right? Like we can take 00:37:45.139 --> 00:37:47.139 on our problems together. And like my kids just 00:37:47.139 --> 00:37:49.599 getting ready to start school. And I was like, 00:37:49.659 --> 00:37:51.679 you know what? A good way to reach people, get 00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:55.019 involved in the school, the PTA, volunteer organizations, 00:37:55.300 --> 00:37:57.940 helping kids, dealing with the kids and their 00:37:57.940 --> 00:38:00.260 parents, right? And so like, that's another way 00:38:00.260 --> 00:38:02.659 I think of like meeting people where they're 00:38:02.659 --> 00:38:04.739 at. It's an opportunity to meet people that are 00:38:04.739 --> 00:38:08.400 not necessarily within your... social media stream 00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:11.179 or they're already in your phone and like reaching 00:38:11.179 --> 00:38:13.599 out to people and working with them and, you 00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:15.460 know, figuring out the ways that you could come 00:38:15.460 --> 00:38:17.440 together to make the world better where you live. 00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:19.960 Like I'm, I'm a real big local elections guy. 00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:23.559 I covered city hall in Shreveport, Louisiana 00:38:23.559 --> 00:38:26.519 about 20 years ago and it changed my life. Like 00:38:26.519 --> 00:38:29.539 I just got so much, so interested in like zoning 00:38:29.539 --> 00:38:32.420 issues and things like that. So even like voting 00:38:32.420 --> 00:38:34.760 in local elections, which aren't always partisan, 00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:38.179 but finding people, that want to help the place 00:38:38.179 --> 00:38:41.039 that you live and make it better, and then supporting 00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:43.300 those people if they have ambitions that go beyond 00:38:43.300 --> 00:38:45.559 that, right? So that, again, I just think there's 00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:47.059 all sorts of ways, but I think it's going to 00:38:47.059 --> 00:38:49.639 have to start in smaller units of gathering, 00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:52.460 right? In smaller units of organization, I think. 00:38:53.199 --> 00:38:56.760 I agree. That's perfectly said. And that commencement 00:38:56.760 --> 00:38:59.400 speech at Muhlenberg College, my alma mater Sunday, 00:38:59.579 --> 00:39:03.860 our honorary degree recipient asked and said 00:39:03.860 --> 00:39:08.309 to all of the graduates, participate, don't spectate. 00:39:08.809 --> 00:39:12.389 And Joel, you hit right on that, which I think 00:39:12.389 --> 00:39:14.949 is absolutely perfect. And it's a great example. 00:39:15.269 --> 00:39:18.489 And I think we'll end it on that. And I am so 00:39:18.489 --> 00:39:21.590 appreciative of both of you joining, sharing 00:39:21.590 --> 00:39:23.670 your thoughts, Steph and the poll work, Joel, 00:39:23.809 --> 00:39:26.269 your really important perspective as well. And 00:39:26.269 --> 00:39:29.460 I'm delighted you were here. And thanks also 00:39:29.460 --> 00:39:32.659 to our audience. We're always glad you're here 00:39:32.659 --> 00:39:35.219 and we hope that you will share your thoughts 00:39:35.219 --> 00:39:38.400 with us. Make comments on YouTube, Spotify, Apple 00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:40.960 on our Substack page. But we do want to hear 00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:43.400 from you because it matters because we're trying 00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:45.900 to create content that's interesting to you that 00:39:45.900 --> 00:39:48.059 helps all of us find a way to talk together. 00:39:48.760 --> 00:39:51.340 So this is Lauren Anderson for the Steady State 00:39:51.340 --> 00:39:56.960 Sentinel Still Standing Watch. Thank you for 00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:59.380 listening to the Steady State Sentinel podcast. 00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:03.420 Don't miss out on more insights and exposes from 00:40:03.420 --> 00:40:07.039 America's premier global security experts. 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