WEBVTT generated by AI 00:00:00.430 --> 00:00:03.310 Something is changing in our country, and most 00:00:03.310 --> 00:00:11.990 people feel it before they can explain it. Good 00:00:11.990 --> 00:00:14.349 afternoon. I'm Peter Mina, founder of the Mina 00:00:14.349 --> 00:00:16.649 Firm, a civil rights and federal employment law 00:00:16.649 --> 00:00:19.109 firm in Washington, D .C., as well as a former 00:00:19.109 --> 00:00:21.289 deputy officer for civil rights and civil liberties 00:00:21.289 --> 00:00:23.929 at the Department of Homeland Security, where 00:00:23.929 --> 00:00:26.210 I work to integrate civil rights and civil liberties 00:00:26.210 --> 00:00:28.269 protections in the department's national security 00:00:28.269 --> 00:00:30.969 programs. And you are listening to the Steady 00:00:30.969 --> 00:00:33.710 State Sentinel from the Steady State. We are 00:00:33.710 --> 00:00:36.390 facing an existential threat, growing autocracy 00:00:36.390 --> 00:00:38.890 in the United States. The Steady State Sentinel 00:00:38.890 --> 00:00:41.390 is a place where we and our distinguished guests 00:00:41.390 --> 00:00:44.630 use our national security expertise to discuss 00:00:44.630 --> 00:00:48.170 and analyze the decisions and acts of this administration 00:00:48.170 --> 00:00:51.030 that feed that autocratic slide and threaten 00:00:51.030 --> 00:00:53.409 to supplant the pillars of our constitutional 00:00:53.409 --> 00:00:56.439 democracy. Today, we have the pleasure of talking 00:00:56.439 --> 00:00:58.740 with Eric Rubin, Senior Fellow with the Democratic 00:00:58.740 --> 00:01:02.560 Resilience Program at the Center for European 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:05.319 Policy Analysis, or SIPA, and a member of the 00:01:05.319 --> 00:01:07.959 Board of Directors at the Steady State. Eric 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:10.620 is a former career diplomat who served 38 years 00:01:10.620 --> 00:01:13.200 in the U .S. Foreign Service, attaining the rank 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:15.680 of Minister Counselor before retiring in 2023. 00:01:17.079 --> 00:01:20.019 Eric began his career in 1985 as a political 00:01:20.019 --> 00:01:22.799 and human rights officer in Honduras. He later 00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:25.659 held key assignments in Ukraine, Russia, and 00:01:25.659 --> 00:01:28.400 Thailand, and served as U .S. ambassadors of 00:01:28.400 --> 00:01:32.819 Bulgaria from 2016 to 2019. Following his ambassadorship, 00:01:33.060 --> 00:01:35.900 Eric was elected president of the American Foreign 00:01:35.900 --> 00:01:38.519 Service Association, the professional association 00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:41.359 and union representing America's career diplomats, 00:01:41.400 --> 00:01:46.549 serving from 2019 to 2023. In recent years, Eric 00:01:46.549 --> 00:01:48.489 has emerged as one of the most forceful critics 00:01:48.489 --> 00:01:50.329 of the Trump administration's reshaping of the 00:01:50.329 --> 00:01:52.730 State Department, publishing detailed analyses 00:01:52.730 --> 00:01:56.469 of what he describes as the systematic dismantlement 00:01:56.469 --> 00:01:59.489 of a nonpartisan foreign service. Welcome to 00:01:59.489 --> 00:02:01.870 the program, Eric. Thank you very much, Peter. 00:02:01.950 --> 00:02:05.870 Glad to be here. So I was wondering if we could 00:02:05.870 --> 00:02:08.210 start off with you describing a little bit about 00:02:08.210 --> 00:02:10.250 your current work at SIPA and in particular, 00:02:10.469 --> 00:02:14.979 the Democratic Resilience Program. So SIPA is 00:02:14.979 --> 00:02:18.639 one of several part -time affiliations that I 00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:22.539 have. And I joined and was grateful to have the 00:02:22.539 --> 00:02:26.060 opportunity to join because I remain focused 00:02:26.060 --> 00:02:30.419 on and passionately committed to, I want to say, 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:32.639 completing the work of what was started at the 00:02:32.639 --> 00:02:34.580 end of the Cold War. But to some extent now, 00:02:34.699 --> 00:02:37.460 we're talking about saving the work that was 00:02:37.460 --> 00:02:40.520 started at the end of the Cold War. People forget 00:02:40.520 --> 00:02:43.500 that several hundred million people achieved 00:02:43.500 --> 00:02:47.680 freedom and democracy in the early 1990s after 00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:51.719 living under totalitarian governments. And a 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:56.819 lot of the initial enthusiasm, optimism, some 00:02:56.819 --> 00:03:00.240 would say excessive optimism, has been replaced 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:05.370 with a sense of really... uh going things going 00:03:05.370 --> 00:03:07.349 in the wrong direction so one of the things i 00:03:07.349 --> 00:03:10.110 wanted to contribute to is since this is so much 00:03:10.110 --> 00:03:12.830 part of my life's work the work i did in ukraine 00:03:12.830 --> 00:03:16.110 and with ukraine the work i did in russia in 00:03:16.110 --> 00:03:20.310 bulgaria with all of that region uh trying to 00:03:20.310 --> 00:03:24.389 do what i can to contribute to not just furthering 00:03:24.389 --> 00:03:26.990 it but to some extent we're looking at at saving 00:03:26.990 --> 00:03:29.310 it and the recent election result in hungary 00:03:29.310 --> 00:03:33.310 is a very positive sign after many years of negative 00:03:33.310 --> 00:03:37.710 developments. And to that end, unfortunately, 00:03:37.889 --> 00:03:40.949 we had an administration that supported the autocratic 00:03:40.949 --> 00:03:43.729 regime of, you know, Viktor Orban with even the 00:03:43.729 --> 00:03:47.189 vice president going to campaign for him. And 00:03:47.189 --> 00:03:49.469 so with that as a backdrop, and you mentioned 00:03:49.469 --> 00:03:54.379 your many part -time jobs post -retirement. I 00:03:54.379 --> 00:03:56.680 was wondering if maybe you could tell us a little 00:03:56.680 --> 00:03:59.560 bit about what led you at the beginning to a 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:02.199 career in diplomacy and national security and 00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:05.560 how that sort of initial commitment has now motivated 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:07.639 your work following your retirement from the 00:04:07.639 --> 00:04:11.379 State Department. Certainly. So I got the international 00:04:11.379 --> 00:04:14.360 bug, I would call it, very early. My parents 00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:19.139 were big travelers, and we went somewhere every 00:04:19.139 --> 00:04:21.500 summer when I was a kid and my brother was a 00:04:21.500 --> 00:04:24.800 kid. And then I did a bunch of exchange programs 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:32.800 in France, in Israel, in the UK. And I really 00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:36.000 loved the experience of living overseas and doing 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:39.040 that. And when I was in college, I had an advisor 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:42.819 who had been in the Foreign Service and who also 00:04:42.819 --> 00:04:45.879 interestingly had worked for the CIA. And he 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:49.949 said to me, I think you'd be a great fit for 00:04:49.949 --> 00:04:53.730 either of those careers. And I said, well, coming 00:04:53.730 --> 00:04:57.569 from the family I come from, the CIA is not an 00:04:57.569 --> 00:04:59.790 option. I could never explain that to my parents. 00:05:00.189 --> 00:05:03.490 My parents were fairly left of center, let's 00:05:03.490 --> 00:05:06.430 put it that way. But the Foreign Service sounds 00:05:06.430 --> 00:05:08.670 intriguing. And to make a long story short, he 00:05:08.670 --> 00:05:10.790 encouraged me to take the Foreign Service exam 00:05:10.790 --> 00:05:13.680 when I was a senior. And I did. And it took a 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:16.500 few years. I had been doing journalism for most 00:05:16.500 --> 00:05:20.079 of my time in school all the way through college. 00:05:20.139 --> 00:05:22.680 And then my first job after college was as a 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:25.160 reporter trainee at the New York Times, which 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:28.139 is where I met my wife the first week after graduation. 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:33.300 And we're together now after 43 years. So that 00:05:33.300 --> 00:05:35.740 was amazing. Congratulations. But the journalism 00:05:35.740 --> 00:05:38.259 part didn't really work out. So I basically. 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:41.600 had the opportunity to take the foreign service 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:44.939 exam, I was thinking of other opportunities like 00:05:44.939 --> 00:05:47.800 law school, which is certainly for my generation, 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:49.519 the default thing. If you don't know what you 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:52.579 want to do, you go to law school. But then I 00:05:52.579 --> 00:05:58.579 got in and that started a 38 -year odyssey starting 00:05:58.579 --> 00:06:03.220 in 1985. And I'm very, very grateful. I certainly 00:06:03.220 --> 00:06:06.779 have no regrets. It was an amazing almost 40 00:06:06.779 --> 00:06:10.389 years. But now we find ourselves in a very different 00:06:10.389 --> 00:06:12.810 place. And to some extent, what I'm doing now 00:06:12.810 --> 00:06:16.610 in multiple ways and with multiple organizations 00:06:16.610 --> 00:06:20.350 is trying to do what I can to help save my life's 00:06:20.350 --> 00:06:24.769 work. And suffice it to say, I'm not alone in 00:06:24.769 --> 00:06:26.509 this. My colleagues aren't. This is true of so 00:06:26.509 --> 00:06:32.810 many people. But my life's work is under very 00:06:32.810 --> 00:06:38.220 serious threat. Absolutely. And I think you've 00:06:38.220 --> 00:06:41.019 probably answered the question I'm about to ask 00:06:41.019 --> 00:06:45.459 you. But given what you just said in terms of 00:06:45.459 --> 00:06:50.459 trying to protect and defend what you built over 00:06:50.459 --> 00:06:54.000 the course of a nearly 40 -year career, are there 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:58.379 other factors that at least contribute to that 00:06:58.379 --> 00:07:03.129 analysis? actually be willing to step out and 00:07:03.129 --> 00:07:05.209 be an advocate for the career diplomatic corps, 00:07:05.389 --> 00:07:07.930 as well as an outspoken critic of what the administration 00:07:07.930 --> 00:07:09.649 is doing. Because I think there are a lot of 00:07:09.649 --> 00:07:12.829 people, you know, with no judgment whatsoever, 00:07:13.149 --> 00:07:15.850 who, you know, might absolutely share your point 00:07:15.850 --> 00:07:19.170 of view, but for any number of reasons, are just 00:07:19.170 --> 00:07:22.389 afraid to come forward. You know, because they're 00:07:22.389 --> 00:07:24.370 afraid of retribution, they're afraid of what 00:07:24.370 --> 00:07:26.470 it might mean for their post government career. 00:07:28.009 --> 00:07:31.129 What drives you past all those fears to speak 00:07:31.129 --> 00:07:35.490 out? Some of it is how I grew up. I mean, I grew 00:07:35.490 --> 00:07:39.129 up with parents who were very involved in the 00:07:39.129 --> 00:07:43.569 civil rights movement. My mother was at the March 00:07:43.569 --> 00:07:48.509 on Washington with Dr. King in 1963. She was 00:07:48.509 --> 00:07:52.250 an official of the New York Urban League. I grew 00:07:52.250 --> 00:07:55.649 up going to Vietnam War moratorium marches wearing 00:07:55.649 --> 00:08:00.240 a black armband. That was how I grew up, also 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:03.160 a very strong supporter of unions and unionism. 00:08:03.180 --> 00:08:06.480 I learned all the union songs, Which Side Are 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:08.980 You On, The Ballad of Joe Hill, all of that as 00:08:08.980 --> 00:08:16.540 a kid. But beyond that, I understand the fear 00:08:16.540 --> 00:08:20.420 because it's real and it's not just us. Senator 00:08:20.420 --> 00:08:25.009 Murkowski said, why are senators not? standing 00:08:25.009 --> 00:08:26.910 up for what they believe in. And she said, because 00:08:26.910 --> 00:08:30.089 we're afraid. You know, Governor Shapiro and 00:08:30.089 --> 00:08:32.809 his family almost died on Passover evening in 00:08:32.809 --> 00:08:37.029 the governor's mansion. And it's not excessive 00:08:37.029 --> 00:08:41.799 to be afraid, but... I think it's make or break 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:45.139 at this point. And I also passionately believe 00:08:45.139 --> 00:08:48.179 that despite our flaws and despite our mistakes, 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:50.940 and certainly the Vietnam War and the Iraq War, 00:08:51.100 --> 00:08:54.200 in my opinion, were mistakes of the worst magnitude. 00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:58.940 I really believe that the world without us is 00:08:58.940 --> 00:09:02.240 really going to be a scary place. And there's 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:05.059 no doubt in my mind that. our current leadership 00:09:05.059 --> 00:09:07.460 wants it to be a world without american leadership 00:09:07.460 --> 00:09:09.779 they want it to be a world where america makes 00:09:09.779 --> 00:09:15.279 money and individuals uh profit from uh dysfunction 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:18.919 and war and and all of that but um you know we're 00:09:18.919 --> 00:09:22.200 actually at a point where it's very real nato 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:24.879 may not survive the un may not survive this is 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:29.399 not hysterics this is is very real so you know 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:31.320 i just feel like i was very privileged i had 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:35.429 a great career i um You know, and I could have 00:09:35.429 --> 00:09:37.669 stayed a few years longer, but 38 years was pretty 00:09:37.669 --> 00:09:39.929 great. But, you know, I achieved everything I 00:09:39.929 --> 00:09:42.230 had hoped to, but I feel like I had a lot of 00:09:42.230 --> 00:09:46.590 privilege and, you know, really need to give 00:09:46.590 --> 00:09:49.309 back. And I understand. And, you know, my brother 00:09:49.309 --> 00:09:51.470 likes to say, I really don't want to visit you 00:09:51.470 --> 00:09:54.470 in prison. And, you know, once upon a time, I 00:09:54.470 --> 00:09:56.330 would have said that's an absurd thing to say, 00:09:56.450 --> 00:09:59.110 but I understand it's not quite absurd anymore. 00:09:59.899 --> 00:10:02.919 But I just decided to be all in. And I'm not 00:10:02.919 --> 00:10:06.360 alone. There are a lot of us who just feel, you 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:08.159 know, it's not just about our profession. It's 00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:10.240 not just about the conduct of diplomacy. It's 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:13.820 about America and the world. And, you know, our 00:10:13.820 --> 00:10:18.120 optimism that really, to some extent, has been 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:21.220 dashed since the end of the Cold War after a 00:10:21.220 --> 00:10:25.399 lot of initial, I would say, enthusiasm and hopefulness. 00:10:28.570 --> 00:10:32.289 You've mentioned, obviously, your amazing family 00:10:32.289 --> 00:10:35.690 history of advocacy, and you mentioned union 00:10:35.690 --> 00:10:38.570 support. One of the things I wanted to touch 00:10:38.570 --> 00:10:41.470 on with you briefly is your role as president 00:10:41.470 --> 00:10:46.289 of AFSA, as well as the unfortunate elimination 00:10:46.289 --> 00:10:50.970 of AFSA as a recognized union, as well as other 00:10:50.970 --> 00:10:53.570 unions around the federal government. And then 00:10:53.570 --> 00:10:57.429 to also juxtapose that with... the rise of organizations 00:10:57.429 --> 00:11:00.330 like the Benjamin Franklin Foundation, and then, 00:11:00.330 --> 00:11:02.570 you know, some of these other, you know, Heritage 00:11:02.570 --> 00:11:04.850 Foundation affiliated groups that have really 00:11:04.850 --> 00:11:08.830 come after members of the civil service. And 00:11:08.830 --> 00:11:14.409 so how do you see preserving the, in your case, 00:11:14.529 --> 00:11:17.029 the career diplomatic corps, you know, sort of 00:11:17.029 --> 00:11:21.029 in the wake of all of the normal, you know, resources 00:11:21.029 --> 00:11:23.110 that would be there to support them, you know, 00:11:23.110 --> 00:11:24.710 having been eliminated, or at least significantly 00:11:24.710 --> 00:11:28.299 weakened? I think it's important to start with 00:11:28.299 --> 00:11:31.399 the fact, and it is a fact in my opinion, that 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:34.639 a lot of what has happened is completely illegal. 00:11:35.980 --> 00:11:39.580 Absolutely. And completely contrary to legislation, 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:43.440 in some cases to the Constitution. I mean, the 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:48.019 fact that the State Department, the Foreign Service, 00:11:48.059 --> 00:11:51.179 and the Civil Service were unionized in 1972. 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:54.440 was established in federal labor legislation 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:58.860 in 1972 signed by president nixon and then in 00:11:58.860 --> 00:12:02.240 1980 with the passage of the foreign service 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:05.759 act it's in that legislation as well it's it's 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:09.480 not optional uh congress decided and the presidents 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:12.320 in question president nixon and president carter 00:12:12.320 --> 00:12:17.019 signed the legislation uh that uh we would have 00:12:17.019 --> 00:12:19.759 unions along with most of the rest of the federal 00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:22.269 government More importantly, though, I think 00:12:22.269 --> 00:12:27.169 what we've seen is a real erosion of the notion 00:12:27.169 --> 00:12:31.250 that employees, federal employees, have agency, 00:12:31.490 --> 00:12:35.330 have the right to have opinions and share them. 00:12:35.769 --> 00:12:39.450 And what we're seeing is the loss of advice. 00:12:39.909 --> 00:12:44.909 So traditionally, and this goes way back to the 00:12:44.909 --> 00:12:46.950 founding of the Foreign Service, the modern Foreign 00:12:46.950 --> 00:12:50.000 Service in 1924. But to some extent, it goes 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:53.120 back to President Theodore Roosevelt before he 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:55.980 became president, when he was first head of the 00:12:55.980 --> 00:12:58.200 Civil Service Reform Commission in New York State 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:01.240 and then head of the Federal Civil Service Reform 00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:03.000 Commission. And that came in the wake of the 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:05.759 assassination of President Garfield by a job 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:10.399 seeker, Charles Guiteau. And the idea was we 00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:13.440 want nonpartisan, nonpolitical people to give 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:16.419 their best advice to the elected leaders. And 00:13:16.419 --> 00:13:19.279 the elected leaders get to decide as long as 00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:22.820 their decisions are legal. But they need advice. 00:13:23.019 --> 00:13:27.159 And having some expert advice is not a bad thing. 00:13:27.860 --> 00:13:33.059 And that concept is now being essentially eliminated. 00:13:33.460 --> 00:13:35.500 There's no question from what I know of what 00:13:35.500 --> 00:13:40.320 the atmosphere is within the State Department. 00:13:40.419 --> 00:13:42.519 And of course, it's not unique to the State Department. 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:45.220 People are afraid to share dissenting opinions. 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:51.220 No one is going to say to political bosses, I 00:13:51.220 --> 00:13:53.679 don't think that's the right answer. Can I tell 00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:56.340 you why? Which is how it's supposed to work. 00:13:57.080 --> 00:14:00.759 And instead, they don't dare do that. So, you 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:02.419 know, we've seen this with this catastrophic 00:14:02.419 --> 00:14:07.100 war with Iran. You know, no one, with a few exceptions, 00:14:07.220 --> 00:14:09.720 it appears a few people, including General Kane 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:12.580 at one point, tried to tell President Trump that 00:14:12.580 --> 00:14:16.000 this was not a good idea. That is not welcome. 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:20.100 And the idea of having a nonpartisan, apolitical 00:14:20.100 --> 00:14:24.980 set of career federal employees who do their 00:14:24.980 --> 00:14:28.419 best to serve whatever administration is in office, 00:14:28.659 --> 00:14:31.519 you know, that's been essentially destroyed. 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:34.399 I just heard today that, you know, not only has 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:36.740 AFSA, the American Foreign Services Association, 00:14:36.940 --> 00:14:40.179 along with the other federal unions, been illegally 00:14:40.179 --> 00:14:45.269 derecognized and kicked out of. all contact and 00:14:45.269 --> 00:14:49.009 engagement with the State Department. But we're 00:14:49.009 --> 00:14:52.169 hearing from people that new employees coming 00:14:52.169 --> 00:14:54.429 into the Foreign Service are afraid to join AFSA 00:14:54.429 --> 00:14:57.950 because they're afraid of retaliation. And once 00:14:57.950 --> 00:15:00.090 upon a time, I would have thought that was impossible, 00:15:00.450 --> 00:15:05.990 but it's not. It's real. So I think what we're 00:15:05.990 --> 00:15:08.750 risking is sliding back into the spoil system 00:15:08.750 --> 00:15:13.210 of the 1880s before we clean things up. And it 00:15:13.210 --> 00:15:15.370 was, you know, interestingly, mostly the Republican 00:15:15.370 --> 00:15:18.110 Party that cleaned things up because the Democratic 00:15:18.110 --> 00:15:21.509 Party was more corrupt, certainly Tammany Hall 00:15:21.509 --> 00:15:23.929 in New York and Boston and all the other places. 00:15:24.210 --> 00:15:26.309 That was Teddy Roosevelt and the Republicans. 00:15:26.509 --> 00:15:30.710 And, you know, the idea now that if you're working 00:15:30.710 --> 00:15:32.370 for the federal government, you have to be a 00:15:32.370 --> 00:15:37.490 loyalist or whoever is in office is very frightening 00:15:37.490 --> 00:15:41.799 and is already hurting us enormously. The last 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:44.340 thing I'll say on this is also the loss of expertise. 00:15:44.620 --> 00:15:47.200 So when we see these negotiations with Iran, 00:15:47.500 --> 00:15:50.500 we don't have a single career diplomat. We don't 00:15:50.500 --> 00:15:53.740 have a single career CIA analyst. We don't have 00:15:53.740 --> 00:15:56.480 anybody who knows Iran, anybody who knows how 00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:59.440 to do diplomatic negotiations. And what a surprise, 00:15:59.620 --> 00:16:02.659 it's failing. We don't even have the Secretary 00:16:02.659 --> 00:16:05.759 of State. You have Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff. 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:08.580 Right. I think the Secretary of State is a smart 00:16:08.580 --> 00:16:11.320 guy. I don't particularly endorse him, but I 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.179 think he knows that this is a loser and he's 00:16:14.179 --> 00:16:17.759 staying away as much as he possibly can. But 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:21.980 really, and, you know, it has to be said, it's 00:16:21.980 --> 00:16:24.720 a delicate issue, but our two negotiators with 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:30.320 Iran are Zionist Bibi Netanyahu supporters who 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:33.200 are opposed to a two -state solution with the 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:37.980 Palestinians. Would I pick them to be our negotiators 00:16:37.980 --> 00:16:40.940 with Iran? Of course not. I would pick experienced 00:16:40.940 --> 00:16:44.100 people like Bill Burns, who did negotiations 00:16:44.100 --> 00:16:47.539 in the Obama and Biden administrations. But never 00:16:47.539 --> 00:16:50.179 mind, nobody's asking me. I just feel very strongly 00:16:50.179 --> 00:16:53.299 that the idea that we don't need expertise and 00:16:53.299 --> 00:16:58.419 knowledge and experience is leading us into really 00:16:58.419 --> 00:17:01.980 dangerous territory. And I know that you have 00:17:01.980 --> 00:17:05.640 made that point. across multiple administrations 00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:09.160 obviously it is not as it hasn't been as stark 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:12.519 and as all -encompassing i would say as it is 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:16.319 right now um but this isn't a new idea um as 00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:19.619 a former you know civil servant myself you know 00:17:19.619 --> 00:17:23.359 i dealt with that tension firsthand and you know 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:26.339 as a i think about all the you know current and 00:17:26.339 --> 00:17:28.619 former you know government lawyers for example 00:17:28.619 --> 00:17:33.259 who you know are now afraid of even, to your 00:17:33.259 --> 00:17:35.960 point, offering advice because, you know, anything 00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:38.519 that might be perceived as opposition, you know, 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:41.880 is essentially equated with treason. And, you 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:44.519 know, you are not long for the job that you're 00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:48.579 in at that point. And, you know, the fact you 00:17:48.579 --> 00:17:50.720 mentioned the Benjamin Franklin Fellowship, and 00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:53.799 I think that has to be said, what people need 00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:56.460 to know is that the State Department had about 00:17:56.460 --> 00:17:59.039 30 employee organizations, some of which were 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:02.240 more than 50 years old. The first one was the 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:04.920 African American Employees Association going 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:09.359 back to 1972. And they were all banned and de 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:12.440 -recognized by the State Department, along with 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:17.200 three labor unions, including AFSA. And yet the 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:20.079 Benjamin Franklin Fellowship, which appears to 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:23.440 be a Heritage Foundation project and appears 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:27.299 to be funded by Heritage and their donors. has 00:18:27.299 --> 00:18:30.079 been given essentially official recognition and 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:32.140 endorsement. The Deputy Secretary of State, Chris 00:18:32.140 --> 00:18:35.839 Landau, is a proud member and has repeatedly 00:18:35.839 --> 00:18:39.359 encouraged employees to join. And, you know, 00:18:39.380 --> 00:18:42.039 I somewhat controversially said it's kind of 00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:45.420 like the Communist Party in the Soviet Union. 00:18:45.500 --> 00:18:47.900 If you were a civil servant in a Soviet government 00:18:47.900 --> 00:18:51.099 ministry, you were not required to join the Communist 00:18:51.099 --> 00:18:53.259 Party. Most Soviet citizens were not members 00:18:53.259 --> 00:18:55.460 of the Communist Party. Only a few million were. 00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:58.259 But if you wanted to get ahead, if you wanted 00:18:58.259 --> 00:19:00.940 to get promoted, if you aspired to high office, 00:19:01.180 --> 00:19:05.319 you damn well had to join or at least apply to 00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:07.839 join the Communist Party. And that's what we're 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:11.180 dealing with now. This administration claims 00:19:11.180 --> 00:19:14.980 to be for meritocracy. It claims that DEIA and 00:19:14.980 --> 00:19:18.400 wokeism were the opposite of meritocracy. But 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:21.180 in reality, this is the opposite of meritocracy. 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:26.059 They have basically said political loyalty. is 00:19:26.059 --> 00:19:29.180 the most important and really the only factor 00:19:29.180 --> 00:19:34.680 in assignments and promotions. And it's not just 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:37.839 loyalty to a party, it's loyalty to a person. 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:42.400 A person who, suffice it to say, is rather controversial. 00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:45.920 And we just saw today the most extreme version 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:48.140 of that with the announcement that the State 00:19:48.140 --> 00:19:50.660 Department will be putting President Trump's 00:19:50.660 --> 00:19:55.299 angry vision. visage portrait in the front of 00:19:55.299 --> 00:20:00.359 all U .S. passports. There's not another country 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:05.299 in the world that has its leader on its passports, 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:08.359 not the monarchies, not Vladimir Putin's Russia. 00:20:09.980 --> 00:20:14.539 It's not done, but that's what's happening. And 00:20:14.539 --> 00:20:17.880 so, you know, the message is you have to be, 00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:21.599 they use the term fidelity. But basically, you 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:25.079 have to be loyal to the absolute monarch or you're 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:32.039 not considered, I guess, loyal is the word. And 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:36.839 absolute loyalty, in fact. And we've never had 00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:40.599 this. But more importantly, this can't last. 00:20:40.819 --> 00:20:42.819 And the thing that I'm most concerned about is 00:20:42.819 --> 00:20:46.079 when the next president, whoever she or he is, 00:20:46.180 --> 00:20:52.200 takes office, they will not have. a strong foreign 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:54.079 service. They will not have senior expertise 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:57.420 because most of our senior people have left or 00:20:57.420 --> 00:20:59.079 have been driven out. The same thing is true 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:01.900 in the intelligence community. They're going 00:21:01.900 --> 00:21:05.299 to be handicapped. If they want to know how to 00:21:05.299 --> 00:21:08.460 interpret Iranian leadership, the people who 00:21:08.460 --> 00:21:11.099 understand that are mostly going to be gone, 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:18.069 will have left. Even the FBI unit in the... you 00:21:18.069 --> 00:21:21.390 know days leading up to the war that was that 00:21:21.390 --> 00:21:25.289 had iran you know expertise in you know in iran 00:21:25.289 --> 00:21:29.549 were all fired or reassigned um so actually your 00:21:29.549 --> 00:21:33.150 comments lead me to a very natural uh segue because 00:21:33.150 --> 00:21:35.930 you mentioned you know the next president uh 00:21:35.930 --> 00:21:38.789 regardless of who you know she or he is and you 00:21:38.789 --> 00:21:42.950 know how they will be hamstrung um i wonder about 00:21:42.950 --> 00:21:46.569 you know sort of the the next generation of uh 00:21:48.430 --> 00:21:51.630 career diplomats and how they navigate a world 00:21:51.630 --> 00:21:56.269 where, you know, our allies have every reason, 00:21:56.329 --> 00:21:59.450 you know, not to trust, not to trust, excuse 00:21:59.450 --> 00:22:02.849 me, what this country says when, you know, even 00:22:02.849 --> 00:22:07.809 if we come out of this, you know, in 2028 or 00:22:07.809 --> 00:22:12.680 2029. Why would anyone, you know, really put 00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:15.279 stock in the promises that the United States 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:18.059 makes? Because because we're just another election 00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:20.380 away from getting back to where we are right 00:22:20.380 --> 00:22:24.200 now. What advice would you give to address that 00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:27.400 problem? Well, I mean, that's a very important 00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:31.440 question. I remember when President Biden won 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:36.099 the election in 2020 and basically said America 00:22:36.099 --> 00:22:40.799 is back. And I was talking to a lot of my diplomatic 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:45.160 friends in Europe, in Australia and Japan. And 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:49.599 their question was, for how long? Right. Unfortunately, 00:22:49.900 --> 00:22:53.839 in 2026, they won't even ask that question anymore. 00:22:55.180 --> 00:23:00.420 Even if we have a new president in 2029, who 00:23:00.420 --> 00:23:04.700 is internationalist and Atlanticist and, you 00:23:04.700 --> 00:23:08.519 know. As you said, they will not have confidence 00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:11.839 or trust that this will last. And it's gone. 00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:15.420 So that's number one. The second piece, I think, 00:23:15.420 --> 00:23:19.759 is that we need diplomats and we need diplomacy. 00:23:20.099 --> 00:23:23.579 And when I joined the Foreign Service in 1985, 00:23:23.900 --> 00:23:26.559 we effectively ran the world with occasional 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:30.539 interference from the Soviet Union. And I would 00:23:30.539 --> 00:23:34.299 put it that way. We don't run the world anymore. 00:23:34.420 --> 00:23:37.619 And increasingly, I mean, it was already happening, 00:23:37.740 --> 00:23:40.099 but Donald Trump has accelerated it in his second 00:23:40.099 --> 00:23:44.599 term enormously. That said, we are going to be 00:23:44.599 --> 00:23:48.359 the richest, most powerful country in the world 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:52.460 for the rest of our lives. And that country needs 00:23:52.460 --> 00:23:56.220 diplomacy and it needs diplomats. And right now 00:23:56.220 --> 00:24:01.519 that is being de -emphasized to great, at great 00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:05.099 cost. You know, our country is losing on so many 00:24:05.099 --> 00:24:08.839 fronts. So what I say to people, I do talk to 00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:12.200 a lot of people who are interested in joining 00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:16.019 the Foreign Service. And I say, please follow 00:24:16.019 --> 00:24:18.720 up, follow through on that, because we need you. 00:24:19.019 --> 00:24:23.609 And having lost so much. I feel very strongly 00:24:23.609 --> 00:24:25.470 about it. And if someone says, well, I don't 00:24:25.470 --> 00:24:27.890 think I could work for Donald Trump, I say, well, 00:24:27.990 --> 00:24:30.210 if you apply now, you won't work for Donald Trump 00:24:30.210 --> 00:24:33.089 because it takes that long to get in. Now, if 00:24:33.089 --> 00:24:34.910 you want to know who the next president is, I 00:24:34.910 --> 00:24:37.150 can't help you. I have no idea. But it won't 00:24:37.150 --> 00:24:40.430 be Donald Trump. And I believe, and I have no 00:24:40.430 --> 00:24:44.069 grounds for disbelief, I just believe it, things 00:24:44.069 --> 00:24:47.589 will be better. I really do believe we're at 00:24:47.589 --> 00:24:51.720 a bottom. Can I prove that? Of course not. But 00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:54.220 I do believe that. And so, you know, I say to 00:24:54.220 --> 00:24:57.259 people, you know, no, it won't be like when I 00:24:57.259 --> 00:25:00.960 joined the, you know, the world was our, we created 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:03.720 all the systems, we created the United Nations, 00:25:03.779 --> 00:25:06.500 we created NATO, we created the IMF, we created 00:25:06.500 --> 00:25:09.200 the World Bank. I mean, all of this was ours. 00:25:09.380 --> 00:25:13.779 We created the WTO really. But we're still kind 00:25:13.779 --> 00:25:19.569 of important. And we need good people. You know, 00:25:19.569 --> 00:25:22.650 I hope people won't shy away from that. It's 00:25:22.650 --> 00:25:25.150 been a terrible ride for career public servants 00:25:25.150 --> 00:25:28.750 because the Trump administration hates them and 00:25:28.750 --> 00:25:31.769 distrust them. But I really do believe that will 00:25:31.769 --> 00:25:36.250 pass. And I really feel it's very important. 00:25:36.390 --> 00:25:38.490 We're going to have to replace the people who've 00:25:38.490 --> 00:25:41.990 left and who've been pushed out. We can't recreate 00:25:41.990 --> 00:25:45.539 everything we had a year and a half ago. There 00:25:45.539 --> 00:25:49.339 will be no replacement for USAID. I'm quite sure 00:25:49.339 --> 00:25:52.519 of it. It certainly can't be revived. We will 00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:54.700 not spend as much on international development 00:25:54.700 --> 00:25:59.240 as we did a year and a half ago, partly because 00:25:59.240 --> 00:26:03.440 once you lose it, the politics are just not conducive 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:06.680 to recreating it. But we've got to get back to 00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:11.640 playing a constructive and engaged role in the 00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:14.359 world, and I think we will. and we've got to 00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:16.299 reinvent a little bit you know we've lost so 00:26:16.299 --> 00:26:18.799 much that we can't get back but somehow we've 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:23.019 got to think uh what what we can do better and 00:26:23.019 --> 00:26:26.759 uh more effectively than what we were doing i 00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:29.460 mean the last point i would make is no one i 00:26:29.460 --> 00:26:32.900 mean i spent almost four decades in this institution 00:26:32.900 --> 00:26:35.440 and no one thought it was perfect no one not 00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:38.849 even close and no one was satisfied I think you 00:26:38.849 --> 00:26:40.529 could say that about any government agency. Absolutely. 00:26:41.009 --> 00:26:43.230 When I was president of AFSA for four years, 00:26:43.269 --> 00:26:45.369 I wrote a column every month in our magazine, 00:26:45.490 --> 00:26:47.650 the Foreign Service Journal. Most of my columns 00:26:47.650 --> 00:26:50.130 were about what needs to be fixed, what is not 00:26:50.130 --> 00:26:54.150 working. So no one's defending the status quo, 00:26:54.250 --> 00:26:58.450 but this kind of destruction is horrific. And 00:26:58.450 --> 00:27:02.170 we've just got to figure out how we sort of get 00:27:02.170 --> 00:27:07.480 our way back to some kind of positive. forward 00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:11.420 -looking future. Well, so to that end, that leads 00:27:11.420 --> 00:27:13.819 me to, you know, what I think people are struggling 00:27:13.819 --> 00:27:16.460 with right now, which is sort of this push and 00:27:16.460 --> 00:27:19.359 pull between, you know, as you mentioned, you 00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:22.640 know, internationalism, respect for global institutions 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:25.799 like NATO and the UN and the IMF and the list 00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:30.579 goes on, you know, in contrast to America, you 00:27:30.579 --> 00:27:32.779 know, quote -unquote America first, depending 00:27:32.779 --> 00:27:35.099 on how, you know, you individually define that. 00:27:36.380 --> 00:27:38.160 and then obviously what's happening right now 00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:40.839 in iran you know the previous incursion into 00:27:40.839 --> 00:27:45.099 venezuela um you know threats about cuba uh as 00:27:45.099 --> 00:27:47.839 you think about you know what our role in the 00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:52.380 world is you know after all of this how how should 00:27:52.380 --> 00:27:55.720 your average uh citizen make sense of all of 00:27:55.720 --> 00:27:58.440 this in the current moment with an eye towards 00:27:58.440 --> 00:28:02.819 again 29 and beyond So I think, you know, the 00:28:02.819 --> 00:28:05.559 average American grew up with a sense of our 00:28:05.559 --> 00:28:12.119 country as a values based society. Not to say 00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:16.839 that we've always acted in that way. And, you 00:28:16.839 --> 00:28:19.880 know, yes, we've done things that are very, I 00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:24.160 would say, lamentable and regrettable. But, you 00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:26.799 know, our country is based on an idea. The Constitution 00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:31.980 is based on an idea. And losing that. Which is 00:28:31.980 --> 00:28:35.200 what's happening now in our foreign policy. I 00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:38.779 mean, I confess, I was always somewhat critical 00:28:38.779 --> 00:28:43.339 of human rights and democracy advocacy, partly 00:28:43.339 --> 00:28:47.059 because it was at times very hypocritical and 00:28:47.059 --> 00:28:53.640 it was at times very, I would say, based on double 00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:57.440 standards. countries that we needed. We looked 00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:00.579 the other way if they were horrible dictatorships. 00:29:00.619 --> 00:29:03.420 And countries that we didn't need, we criticized 00:29:03.420 --> 00:29:06.740 them and put sanctions on them. But I never really 00:29:06.740 --> 00:29:09.960 thought we could get away completely from having 00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:12.279 values. So what we've seen in Venezuela, what 00:29:12.279 --> 00:29:15.500 we've seen in Iran, what we're looking at seeing 00:29:15.500 --> 00:29:19.559 in Cuba is a policy based on the absolute absence 00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:22.539 of values. I mean, Trump has basically said if 00:29:22.539 --> 00:29:24.880 the Cuban communist regime is willing to make 00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:27.960 an the settlement with us, we're fine with them 00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:30.900 staying in power. And I hope that all the Cuban 00:29:30.900 --> 00:29:33.480 Americans in Miami and elsewhere who voted for 00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:36.940 him are okay with that. I know they're not, but 00:29:36.940 --> 00:29:40.640 they voted for him. And what we're seeing in 00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:42.619 Iran, I mean, I think we're going to see a deal 00:29:42.619 --> 00:29:44.920 with the Iranian regime staying in power and 00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:47.859 probably being more secure in power than they 00:29:47.859 --> 00:29:49.779 were six months ago when the whole country was 00:29:49.779 --> 00:29:53.779 up in arms demonstrating. And Venezuela, I mean, 00:29:53.819 --> 00:29:56.619 it's very explicit. It's the same regime. They 00:29:56.619 --> 00:30:00.480 just agreed to kowtow to us and do what we say 00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:04.319 so they don't get killed. But there's no democracy 00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:06.720 in Venezuela and doesn't look like there's going 00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:10.940 to be any. You know, again, countries have interests. 00:30:11.220 --> 00:30:15.140 I have been critical of sometimes our emphasis 00:30:15.140 --> 00:30:18.339 on some of this, which I thought. But, you know, 00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:20.400 at the end of the day, and then Ukraine is the 00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:24.259 most important example. You know, Ukraine is 00:30:24.259 --> 00:30:28.539 about. key principles and values of national 00:30:28.539 --> 00:30:34.859 sovereignty, democracy, you know, that the bullies 00:30:34.859 --> 00:30:39.720 don't win. And I will say I'm optimistic Ukraine 00:30:39.720 --> 00:30:43.180 will survive and overcome this, but this administration 00:30:43.180 --> 00:30:48.599 is not making it easy. Unfortunately, I think 00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:51.920 the priorities have become, in contrast to values, 00:30:52.180 --> 00:30:54.359 it's self -interest and self -aggrandizement. 00:30:55.369 --> 00:30:57.910 And if you said to me, well, countries have interests 00:30:57.910 --> 00:31:00.690 and all that, well, of course they do. And I'm 00:31:00.690 --> 00:31:03.309 not going to argue that they shouldn't. But what 00:31:03.309 --> 00:31:05.630 we're seeing now, which is different, is personal 00:31:05.630 --> 00:31:10.509 interests. We haven't really had that before. 00:31:10.630 --> 00:31:13.069 We've never had a president who was focused on 00:31:13.069 --> 00:31:17.829 personal aggrandizement and his family's financial 00:31:17.829 --> 00:31:20.329 interests and all that. We really haven't. And 00:31:20.329 --> 00:31:27.579 it's shameful. But here we are. Well, so speaking 00:31:27.579 --> 00:31:31.480 of self -interest, you know, one of the things 00:31:31.480 --> 00:31:35.259 that, you know, as we come to a close, you know, 00:31:35.259 --> 00:31:37.880 and I'm so grateful for how gracious you've been 00:31:37.880 --> 00:31:41.920 with your time today. What would you tell our 00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:46.160 listeners? You know, what should they be doing 00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:48.299 right now? You know, what is the call to action? 00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:51.220 You know, it's easy to get kind of overwhelmed 00:31:51.220 --> 00:31:55.039 by just the sheer enormity of everything that's 00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:57.220 happening and sort of feeling, you know, almost 00:31:57.220 --> 00:31:59.859 helpless. Like, you know, what do I do? You know, 00:31:59.880 --> 00:32:02.900 what would you tell that person? Well, I think, 00:32:02.900 --> 00:32:05.019 you know, based on my experience, there's so 00:32:05.019 --> 00:32:07.660 many things that, you know, we as Americans need 00:32:07.660 --> 00:32:11.319 to be focused on. We tend to focus on our own. 00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:14.839 neighborhood and our own personal interests, 00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:18.880 our engagement with the world is the basis of 00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:22.839 our prosperity and security. And I would say 00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:26.839 it's so important for people to not only recognize 00:32:26.839 --> 00:32:30.400 that, but to do something about it. And of course, 00:32:30.420 --> 00:32:33.240 a lot of Americans have. They've hosted exchange 00:32:33.240 --> 00:32:38.809 students. They've supported organizations working 00:32:38.809 --> 00:32:41.990 overseas on food security and on public health, 00:32:42.089 --> 00:32:46.549 all sorts of things. But it's really crazy in 00:32:46.549 --> 00:32:50.789 2026 to find ourselves back in the 1920s with 00:32:50.789 --> 00:32:53.509 the notion that Fortress America can survive 00:32:53.509 --> 00:32:56.390 on its own and we don't need the rest of the 00:32:56.390 --> 00:32:58.250 world. And actually the rest of the world is 00:32:58.250 --> 00:33:02.210 our enemy. And we're seeing the results of that 00:33:02.210 --> 00:33:08.059 economically. And in terms of security, I mean, 00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:10.640 anyone who thinks that losing NATO is good for 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:16.240 our security is extremely deluded. And, you know, 00:33:16.259 --> 00:33:18.920 our allies are saying to us, not just our European 00:33:18.920 --> 00:33:22.380 allies in NATO, but our allies in Asia and elsewhere 00:33:22.380 --> 00:33:26.319 are saying to us, you know, you need us and we 00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:29.359 need you. And that's the whole point. It's a 00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:32.359 mutual and the idea that we can go it alone. 00:33:33.019 --> 00:33:37.140 I just read this insane article today about our 00:33:37.140 --> 00:33:40.740 F -35 fighters, which increasingly are coming 00:33:40.740 --> 00:33:43.519 off the assembly line without the high -tech 00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:48.799 radars that they need to deal with threats. And 00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:53.880 that's because there's some precious metals and 00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:57.500 rare earths that they need to make these radars, 00:33:57.559 --> 00:34:04.170 and 99 % of them come from China. So how is that 00:34:04.170 --> 00:34:09.369 good? It's not. I think actually. Oh, I'm sorry. 00:34:09.449 --> 00:34:13.110 Go ahead. I was just going to say, I think that. 00:34:15.469 --> 00:34:19.989 What we're seeing is this, you know, hyper individualism, 00:34:20.010 --> 00:34:22.909 you know, as a nation and then, you know, honestly, 00:34:23.010 --> 00:34:27.030 as individuals. And despite the fact and I tell 00:34:27.030 --> 00:34:29.800 me if you agree, despite the fact that. you know, 00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:31.800 national security is used as a justification 00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:35.000 for almost everything. You know, I would argue 00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:37.300 that we're profoundly less safe today than we 00:34:37.300 --> 00:34:42.440 were on, you know, January 19th, 2025. I think 00:34:42.440 --> 00:34:45.539 that's absolutely true. And I also think that 00:34:45.539 --> 00:34:50.800 despite the theoretical benefits of the internet, 00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:55.400 you know, back, I'm old enough and you are too 00:34:55.400 --> 00:34:59.139 to remember when all the arguments were made 00:34:59.139 --> 00:35:01.280 that the internet is going to increase global 00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:03.739 knowledge and understanding and everybody will 00:35:03.739 --> 00:35:05.780 have access to all the information in the world, 00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:10.980 people are much less informed and much less involved 00:35:10.980 --> 00:35:13.800 than they were before the internet. And that's 00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:16.440 a subject for scholarly study that I'm not going 00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:19.199 to try to get into. But the key point is people, 00:35:19.539 --> 00:35:22.760 you know, for one thing, Americans don't understand 00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:27.670 this collectively. that our citizens are worse 00:35:27.670 --> 00:35:31.130 off than citizens of most of the other industrialized 00:35:31.130 --> 00:35:35.469 democracies. If you want to compare us to Burkina 00:35:35.469 --> 00:35:37.630 Faso, it's certainly better to be an American. 00:35:37.670 --> 00:35:40.829 I got that. No one's going to argue that. But 00:35:40.829 --> 00:35:46.829 compared to all of our allies and all the other 00:35:46.829 --> 00:35:49.489 democracies in the world, and there's about 50 00:35:49.489 --> 00:35:53.889 of them, Americans have it worse in so many respects, 00:35:53.969 --> 00:36:00.010 from health care to child care to workplace rights. 00:36:00.070 --> 00:36:03.030 I mean, you could go down the list. Life is harder 00:36:03.030 --> 00:36:08.389 here. And, you know, that's something that I 00:36:08.389 --> 00:36:10.409 say, and this is why international engagement 00:36:10.409 --> 00:36:14.090 is so important. But, you know, we saw this with 00:36:14.090 --> 00:36:16.650 the insanity about taking over Greenland, where, 00:36:16.789 --> 00:36:18.929 you know, the average Greenlander said, you know 00:36:18.929 --> 00:36:21.789 what? It's so much better here than in the United 00:36:21.789 --> 00:36:27.670 States. Why would we change that? And of course, 00:36:27.690 --> 00:36:30.429 you know, I'm afraid certainly on the MAGA side, 00:36:30.710 --> 00:36:34.210 people don't understand that. And they're sold 00:36:34.210 --> 00:36:38.269 a bill of goods that isn't true. I think that's 00:36:38.269 --> 00:36:41.650 right. That's right. And I think actually it 00:36:41.650 --> 00:36:46.030 is a great reminder to all of our listeners and 00:36:46.030 --> 00:36:48.869 to everyone out there that it doesn't have to 00:36:48.869 --> 00:36:51.400 be that way. you don't have to be helpless um 00:36:51.400 --> 00:36:55.320 there's always agency um and there's always you 00:36:55.320 --> 00:37:00.019 know it's a simplification but the amount of 00:37:00.019 --> 00:37:04.300 money we have spent on attacking iran in the 00:37:04.300 --> 00:37:08.920 past few months uh would pay for health insurance 00:37:08.920 --> 00:37:13.619 for every american for the next few years it's 00:37:13.619 --> 00:37:17.719 that much But no one, I mean, people are making 00:37:17.719 --> 00:37:19.440 that case. That's the kind of thing you hear 00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:23.780 from Bernie Sanders and some other people. But 00:37:23.780 --> 00:37:27.920 the point is, it's actually true. And yet the 00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:30.199 message is we can't afford health care for everybody. 00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:33.219 We can't afford long -term care for everybody. 00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:38.139 We can't afford good schools for everybody. So 00:37:38.139 --> 00:37:42.320 that is part of this. International engagement 00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:44.699 leads to understanding some of these things. 00:37:44.780 --> 00:37:46.980 And I personally think it's one of the reasons 00:37:46.980 --> 00:37:50.280 there are people who are opposed to international 00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:52.239 engagement because they don't want to hear it. 00:37:52.340 --> 00:37:58.239 And, you know, I think there's still this American 00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:01.039 exceptionalism argument that we're the best thing 00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:03.239 since sliced bread. And, of course, you know, 00:38:03.260 --> 00:38:07.840 I'm extremely patriotic and deeply grateful for. 00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:10.340 what this country has meant to my family for 00:38:10.340 --> 00:38:13.659 more than a century. And I believe in this country, 00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:17.980 but I also recognize it's not what we claim to 00:38:17.980 --> 00:38:22.679 be. And I think, you know, that's a turning point 00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:24.480 that we're approaching that we're really going 00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:27.960 to have to confront. Absolutely. And that knowledge 00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:31.320 and that honesty is power and helps us fight 00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:34.679 against that authoritarian slide. And so, Eric, 00:38:34.780 --> 00:38:36.980 again, thank you for being so, so gracious with 00:38:36.980 --> 00:38:40.320 your time. Really appreciate you joining us. 00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:42.659 And so if you wouldn't mind, can you tell the 00:38:42.659 --> 00:38:44.760 audience a little bit about, you know, you've 00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:48.139 mentioned the democracy resilience program or 00:38:48.139 --> 00:38:50.179 democratic resilience program. I know you mentioned 00:38:50.179 --> 00:38:52.739 lots of other part time jobs that you've got. 00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:54.280 I don't know if there's anything you want to 00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:56.780 highlight or just let folks know where they can 00:38:56.780 --> 00:39:01.489 find you, you know, in the great interwebs. Certainly. 00:39:01.550 --> 00:39:04.210 So I'm on the board as well of the American Academy 00:39:04.210 --> 00:39:09.389 of Diplomacy and working with the Academy on 00:39:09.389 --> 00:39:14.469 working with Congress, with congressional staffers 00:39:14.469 --> 00:39:18.389 and members on issues related to supporting the 00:39:18.389 --> 00:39:22.869 Foreign Service. And that's a strong commitment. 00:39:22.909 --> 00:39:25.210 And I'm hopeful we'll have a new Congress that 00:39:25.210 --> 00:39:29.309 will be more receptive to positive things. I'm 00:39:29.309 --> 00:39:33.650 also on the board of DACOR, which is originally 00:39:33.650 --> 00:39:36.889 the diplomatic and consular officers retired 00:39:36.889 --> 00:39:41.530 group, but it's now really essentially the organization 00:39:41.530 --> 00:39:44.929 of foreign affairs professionals throughout our 00:39:44.929 --> 00:39:49.550 country and a very important space for discussion 00:39:49.550 --> 00:39:53.530 and other things. I'm doing a couple of things 00:39:53.530 --> 00:39:56.550 working with high school students who are interested 00:39:56.550 --> 00:40:00.070 in foreign affairs. I'm also on the board of 00:40:00.070 --> 00:40:03.829 YIVO, the YIVO Institute for Jewish Research 00:40:03.829 --> 00:40:08.489 in New York, which is partly based on my family 00:40:08.489 --> 00:40:13.510 heritage and my commitment to that. And then 00:40:13.510 --> 00:40:15.769 I'm also working on several projects looking 00:40:15.769 --> 00:40:20.429 ahead to what 2029 looks like and how we can 00:40:20.429 --> 00:40:23.809 think about reinvention and how we can think 00:40:23.809 --> 00:40:25.929 about what comes next if we have the opportunity. 00:40:27.170 --> 00:40:30.530 So that's something I'm very happy to be part 00:40:30.530 --> 00:40:36.409 of. And then I do a lot of speaking engagements 00:40:36.409 --> 00:40:38.710 around the country and I do a lot of interviews. 00:40:39.070 --> 00:40:42.409 And, you know, basically the message I try to 00:40:42.409 --> 00:40:45.190 convey is the importance of America's engagement 00:40:45.190 --> 00:40:48.670 with the world and the importance of career diplomats 00:40:48.670 --> 00:40:53.650 and career expertise. And I know you're also 00:40:53.650 --> 00:40:55.909 pretty active on LinkedIn and other places. So, 00:40:55.909 --> 00:40:58.710 you know, people can definitely, you know, find 00:40:58.710 --> 00:41:01.730 you there. And so to our audience, if you like 00:41:01.730 --> 00:41:03.809 what you heard on today's show, please subscribe 00:41:03.809 --> 00:41:05.829 to the Steady State Sentinel wherever you get 00:41:05.829 --> 00:41:08.429 your podcasts and give us a five -star review 00:41:08.429 --> 00:41:11.329 on Google. Those subscriptions and five -star 00:41:11.329 --> 00:41:13.989 reviews help us get this important content to 00:41:13.989 --> 00:41:16.599 the widest audience possible. If you'd like to 00:41:16.599 --> 00:41:18.739 hear more from our guests about the implications 00:41:18.739 --> 00:41:21.159 of the administration's foreign policy and the 00:41:21.159 --> 00:41:23.719 dismantling of the career foreign service, also 00:41:23.719 --> 00:41:26.860 check out my interview with our chairman of the 00:41:26.860 --> 00:41:30.000 Board of the Steady State, Tom O 'Brien. And 00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:32.500 as always, the Steady State Sentinel is for you, 00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:34.980 our listeners, and we want to hear from you. 00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:38.139 Please join us for our next episode so you can 00:41:38.139 --> 00:41:41.380 stay engaged and stay informed. Remember, protecting 00:41:41.380 --> 00:41:44.579 our democracy is not a spectator sport. This 00:41:44.579 --> 00:41:47.019 is Peter Mina for the SteadyState Sentinel, still 00:41:47.019 --> 00:41:52.440 standing watch. 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