WEBVTT - generated with AI 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.299 Something is changing in our country, and most 00:00:03.299 --> 00:00:11.640 people feel it before they can explain it. Welcome 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:14.699 to the Steady State Sentinel. I'm Lauren Anderson. 00:00:15.300 --> 00:00:18.399 I spent nearly three decades in the FBI, both 00:00:18.399 --> 00:00:20.820 in the U .S. and overseas, focused on national 00:00:20.820 --> 00:00:23.359 security. We're delighted that you've joined 00:00:23.359 --> 00:00:26.920 us for this episode. I spent the last few weeks 00:00:26.920 --> 00:00:28.820 thinking about how to frame this conversation. 00:00:29.609 --> 00:00:32.829 And I keep coming back to one thing. It feels 00:00:32.829 --> 00:00:35.689 like we're in the middle of what some are calling 00:00:35.689 --> 00:00:38.149 a counter -revolution in U .S. foreign policy, 00:00:38.350 --> 00:00:41.530 one that didn't begin with any single administration, 00:00:41.609 --> 00:00:44.429 but has been building over the past two decades, 00:00:44.789 --> 00:00:47.909 shaped in part by the experience of Iraq and 00:00:47.909 --> 00:00:51.030 Afghanistan and a growing disillusionment with 00:00:51.030 --> 00:00:53.289 large -scale intervention and nation -building. 00:00:54.090 --> 00:00:57.270 At the same time, The world has become much more 00:00:57.270 --> 00:00:59.609 complex, and we're experiencing the greatest 00:00:59.609 --> 00:01:02.969 number of ongoing conflicts since World War II, 00:01:03.109 --> 00:01:06.129 including the current wars in Iran and Lebanon, 00:01:06.349 --> 00:01:08.890 which have expanded into attacks in the entire 00:01:08.890 --> 00:01:13.250 Gulf region. China and Russia are both focused 00:01:13.250 --> 00:01:16.890 on challenging the post -Cold War order, and 00:01:16.890 --> 00:01:18.909 our allies are reassessing their relationships 00:01:18.909 --> 00:01:22.150 with us. We're witnessing a fundamental shift 00:01:22.150 --> 00:01:24.870 in how America defines its role in the world. 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:28.700 At the same time, our institutional capacity 00:01:28.700 --> 00:01:32.879 and capability have been eroded, and we're operating 00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:35.959 with executive and congressional leadership that 00:01:35.959 --> 00:01:38.379 increasingly believes it can choose its own path 00:01:38.379 --> 00:01:41.340 with or without the support and consent of the 00:01:41.340 --> 00:01:44.140 American people. This will be a conversation 00:01:44.140 --> 00:01:46.159 about trying to understand what's happening, 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:48.780 and there's no one better to help us think through 00:01:48.780 --> 00:01:52.420 that than Ambassador Tom Shannon. Ambassador 00:01:52.420 --> 00:01:54.900 Shannon is one of the most experienced diplomats 00:01:54.900 --> 00:01:57.280 of his generation with more than three decades 00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:00.540 of service at the State Department. He served 00:02:00.540 --> 00:02:02.900 as Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs, 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:06.359 effectively the department's chief diplomat for 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:08.580 day -to -day foreign policy engagement worldwide, 00:02:09.039 --> 00:02:13.400 and he played a central role in shaping U .S. 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:16.759 policy across multiple administrations. He also 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:18.879 led the State Department during the presidential 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:21.500 transition period between the Obama and Trump 00:02:21.500 --> 00:02:24.979 administrations. Earlier in his career, he served 00:02:24.979 --> 00:02:27.780 as Assistant Secretary of State for Western Hemisphere 00:02:27.780 --> 00:02:31.939 Affairs and as U .S. Ambassador to Brazil. His 00:02:31.939 --> 00:02:34.919 work has spanned Latin America, Europe, and Africa, 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:38.099 and he has been deeply involved in some of the 00:02:38.099 --> 00:02:40.580 most complex diplomatic challenges facing the 00:02:40.580 --> 00:02:43.780 United States. He's currently teaching at Princeton 00:02:43.780 --> 00:02:46.689 University. on history and the practice of diplomacy, 00:02:47.150 --> 00:02:50.330 which gives him a unique perspective on how Gen 00:02:50.330 --> 00:02:54.110 Z is thinking about foreign policy and America's 00:02:54.110 --> 00:02:58.009 role in the world. Welcome, Tom. We're delighted 00:02:58.009 --> 00:03:00.770 to have you with us. And I always like to start 00:03:00.770 --> 00:03:03.150 with asking our guests to share a little bit 00:03:03.150 --> 00:03:06.069 about why they chose the path they took and why 00:03:06.069 --> 00:03:09.349 they stayed. Well, thank you, Lauren, very much. 00:03:09.430 --> 00:03:11.830 It's a tremendous pleasure to be with you and 00:03:11.830 --> 00:03:15.740 to have this conversation. You know, my goal 00:03:15.740 --> 00:03:20.080 in life had for the longest period of time been 00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:24.060 to be a professional baseball player. But I failed 00:03:24.060 --> 00:03:27.620 at that when I was in high school. And I had 00:03:27.620 --> 00:03:31.439 to pick another path. And it took me a while 00:03:31.439 --> 00:03:35.740 to land on diplomacy. But I knew I wanted to 00:03:35.740 --> 00:03:39.919 participate in public life. I knew I wanted to 00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:45.759 be a voice in the public commons. And as I moved 00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:48.879 around from undergrad school to graduate school 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:52.340 from the United States to the UK, I decided that 00:03:52.340 --> 00:03:56.020 what better way to serve my country to operate 00:03:56.020 --> 00:03:59.599 in this public space than as an American diplomat 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:02.919 representing the United States abroad. And so 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:05.259 when I left graduate school, I entered the United 00:04:05.259 --> 00:04:08.939 States Foreign Service, spent 35 wonderful years 00:04:08.939 --> 00:04:12.300 as a Foreign Service officer. I can tell you 00:04:12.300 --> 00:04:16.500 that aside from a exciting and satisfying career, 00:04:16.600 --> 00:04:20.980 I also had a joyful one. And that's phenomenal 00:04:20.980 --> 00:04:23.699 because not everybody gets to say that. And as 00:04:23.699 --> 00:04:25.939 you know, I feel the same way about my own career. 00:04:26.060 --> 00:04:29.199 And those of us who are lucky enough to do something 00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:32.220 that matters, do something we love and have that 00:04:32.220 --> 00:04:35.180 much joy with it is just phenomenal. Not everybody 00:04:35.180 --> 00:04:37.740 gets that. It's a gift, I think. It is indeed. 00:04:38.990 --> 00:04:41.610 In an earlier conversation you and I had, you 00:04:41.610 --> 00:04:43.949 used the phrase counter -revolution, which is 00:04:43.949 --> 00:04:47.009 what sparked my opening. From your perspective, 00:04:47.209 --> 00:04:50.009 what's actually changing in U .S. foreign policy 00:04:50.009 --> 00:04:52.970 right now? And is this a break from the past 00:04:52.970 --> 00:04:55.009 or something that, in your opinion, has been 00:04:55.009 --> 00:04:58.790 building over time? You know, I would argue that 00:04:58.790 --> 00:05:03.569 for most of American history, the United States 00:05:03.569 --> 00:05:06.209 sought to be an independent, autonomous nation. 00:05:06.829 --> 00:05:09.209 that was capable of pursuing its own interests 00:05:09.209 --> 00:05:14.129 and unwilling to become an ally or partner of 00:05:14.129 --> 00:05:17.569 any other country that might in any way compromise 00:05:17.569 --> 00:05:21.129 the ability of the United States government to 00:05:21.129 --> 00:05:23.569 choose a path that was wholly beneficial for 00:05:23.569 --> 00:05:27.269 the American people. However, in the aftermath 00:05:27.269 --> 00:05:31.550 of World War II, the American government, led 00:05:31.550 --> 00:05:33.870 by first President Roosevelt and then President 00:05:33.870 --> 00:05:37.519 Truman, and by an extraordinary group of American 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:42.300 diplomats and warriors, determined that the foreign 00:05:42.300 --> 00:05:44.660 policy that had served the United States so well 00:05:44.660 --> 00:05:48.839 through the 18th and 19th century had been sputtering 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:52.240 through the first part of the 20th century, and 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:55.860 that it was necessary to revolutionize American 00:05:55.860 --> 00:05:58.920 foreign policy. And so the real revolution in 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:01.620 American foreign policy takes place in the immediate 00:06:01.620 --> 00:06:04.540 aftermath of World War II. when the United States 00:06:04.540 --> 00:06:07.560 decides that our hemisphere is not enough to 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:10.300 secure ourselves, that we have to involve ourselves 00:06:10.300 --> 00:06:14.060 in the world, and that we have to do so through 00:06:14.060 --> 00:06:17.819 alliances, through security alliances, through 00:06:17.819 --> 00:06:21.259 political and economic alliances, and through 00:06:21.259 --> 00:06:24.579 attempting to build engagement in the world that 00:06:24.579 --> 00:06:27.279 not only promotes our political values and our 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:32.699 prosperity, but convinces people that Our peace 00:06:32.699 --> 00:06:36.279 and our prosperity can be theirs also by partnering 00:06:36.279 --> 00:06:41.620 with us. Unfortunately, when we get into the 00:06:41.620 --> 00:06:44.879 21st century, for some of the reasons you alluded 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:51.360 to, the attacks of 9 -11, the invasion of Afghanistan, 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:54.939 the invasion of Iraq, the larger war on terror, 00:06:55.279 --> 00:07:00.920 the global financial recession of 2008 -2009, 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:06.199 COVID, among other things, have gradually begun 00:07:06.199 --> 00:07:09.740 to wear at this understanding of how the United 00:07:09.740 --> 00:07:13.040 States conducts its foreign policy. And I believe 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:15.240 that increasingly American people have thought 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:18.160 that national security elites have been out of 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:21.100 touch and have not been having a conversation 00:07:21.100 --> 00:07:23.720 with the American people about American values 00:07:23.720 --> 00:07:27.680 and interests. And this has sparked what I call 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:30.600 the counter -revolution. which is really an effort 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:34.860 to turn on this alliance -based system and to 00:07:34.860 --> 00:07:38.540 go back to something that had prevailed through 00:07:38.540 --> 00:07:41.560 the 18th and 19th century, which is an America 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:46.060 first, America by itself foreign policy that 00:07:46.060 --> 00:07:49.319 does not understand ourselves as situated among 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:53.220 allies and partners, but operating quite independently 00:07:53.220 --> 00:07:58.360 and taking advantage of our power. And in many 00:07:58.360 --> 00:08:00.980 ways, President Trump has been one of the most 00:08:00.980 --> 00:08:04.699 effective articulators of this kind of foreign 00:08:04.699 --> 00:08:08.980 policy. But the task before the American people 00:08:08.980 --> 00:08:11.800 today, I believe, is to determine whether or 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:15.259 not this is a correct path. From the president's 00:08:15.259 --> 00:08:20.500 point of view, the alliance -based system, the 00:08:20.500 --> 00:08:23.240 effort to build a global economy, to build institutions 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:26.889 of global governance. is a model that has run 00:08:26.889 --> 00:08:30.930 its course. It has been overcome by changes in 00:08:30.930 --> 00:08:34.509 the world and now requires too much investment 00:08:34.509 --> 00:08:38.549 of money and blood in order to maintain it, and 00:08:38.549 --> 00:08:40.570 that increasingly the benefits are not accruing 00:08:40.570 --> 00:08:44.350 to the American people. I don't agree with that, 00:08:44.450 --> 00:08:47.789 but this is where we are right now in this moment 00:08:47.789 --> 00:08:51.110 of counter -revolution. That's an interesting 00:08:51.110 --> 00:08:53.649 point. And one of the things I've thought about, 00:08:53.769 --> 00:08:57.210 not just for this conversation, but as being 00:08:57.210 --> 00:08:58.950 a part of government for so long as you were, 00:08:59.090 --> 00:09:02.350 is, you know, in this shift, have we also lost 00:09:02.350 --> 00:09:05.429 sight of the fact, whether we agree or disagree 00:09:05.429 --> 00:09:07.330 with the forward movement, have we lost sight 00:09:07.330 --> 00:09:10.470 of the fact that our foreign policy should be 00:09:10.470 --> 00:09:13.590 taking into consideration what Americans think? 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:17.059 Do you think that the shift that we're seeing 00:09:17.059 --> 00:09:20.820 now is moving away from our values, which has 00:09:20.820 --> 00:09:23.740 driven us at times towards something more transactional? 00:09:23.820 --> 00:09:25.919 Or do you think it's more complicated than that? 00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:30.799 Well, first of all, I do think the American people 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:34.259 are questioning what America's purpose in the 00:09:34.259 --> 00:09:36.539 world is and what the trajectory of American 00:09:36.539 --> 00:09:38.919 power should look like. And they've been having 00:09:38.919 --> 00:09:41.460 a conversation among themselves and expressing 00:09:41.460 --> 00:09:43.950 themselves through elections. for two decades 00:09:43.950 --> 00:09:47.190 now it's taken that long for government to hear 00:09:47.190 --> 00:09:49.370 this and to listen to it in a meaningful way 00:09:49.370 --> 00:09:53.710 but what worries me uh one of the things that 00:09:53.710 --> 00:09:57.309 worries me at this point in time is that the 00:09:57.309 --> 00:10:00.250 kind of unilateralism that is being expressed 00:10:00.250 --> 00:10:03.110 in parts of the american body politic and in 00:10:03.110 --> 00:10:06.289 this administration is one that is largely built 00:10:06.289 --> 00:10:10.909 around power and not around values and my own 00:10:10.909 --> 00:10:14.830 view is is that Power without purpose, power 00:10:14.830 --> 00:10:18.190 without values or principle is an empty vessel. 00:10:18.850 --> 00:10:22.409 And it's one that only allows you to accomplish 00:10:22.409 --> 00:10:27.350 so much. And one that, like quicksand, once you 00:10:27.350 --> 00:10:31.169 step into it, it's very hard to get out of. And 00:10:31.169 --> 00:10:34.669 so the advantage of values is that it shapes 00:10:34.669 --> 00:10:37.409 and directs the use of power. And I actually 00:10:37.409 --> 00:10:38.909 believe this is something that's very important 00:10:38.909 --> 00:10:41.509 to the American people and that has to be articulated. 00:10:42.190 --> 00:10:45.289 if the American people are going to understand 00:10:45.289 --> 00:10:48.169 the use of American power as the current administration 00:10:48.169 --> 00:10:52.230 is using it. One of the things you and I also 00:10:52.230 --> 00:10:55.529 talked about, and I know has been core to you 00:10:55.529 --> 00:10:58.230 as a diplomat over the course of your career, 00:10:58.309 --> 00:11:02.250 is considering the value of both hard power and 00:11:02.250 --> 00:11:06.049 soft power. And the progression right now seems 00:11:06.049 --> 00:11:09.610 to be more focused on hard power and less focused 00:11:09.610 --> 00:11:12.370 on soft power. And I'd love to get your thoughts 00:11:12.370 --> 00:11:15.750 on how you've seen that dynamic play out and 00:11:15.750 --> 00:11:19.009 whether you see it's effective or not effective 00:11:19.009 --> 00:11:22.690 and what that balance might look like in an ideal 00:11:22.690 --> 00:11:26.669 world. You know, these are hard things to balance. 00:11:26.870 --> 00:11:28.789 There's no doubt that hard power is important. 00:11:29.269 --> 00:11:32.450 There's no doubt that military power and raw 00:11:32.450 --> 00:11:36.450 economic power command people's attention and 00:11:36.450 --> 00:11:40.759 convince people. to either stay away from you 00:11:40.759 --> 00:11:46.120 or to partner with you. But the magic of the 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:48.539 United States, if you want to call it that, one 00:11:48.539 --> 00:11:50.759 of the reasons that it has played such a fundamental 00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:54.600 role in shaping global agendas over the last 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:57.019 half of the 20th century and the first two decades 00:11:57.019 --> 00:12:01.539 of the 21st century was not hard power. It was 00:12:01.539 --> 00:12:05.000 soft power. It was the power of our values, of 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:08.440 our politics. of political systems that showed 00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:11.039 they could solve tough problems and do so peacefully 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:13.720 and within the structure of a constitutional 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:17.600 order, and which generated this really remarkable 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:24.279 culture and generated technological and scientific 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:27.840 advances that have had profound impact on how 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:31.740 people live. And the truth of the matter is that 00:12:31.740 --> 00:12:36.279 lethality, to use a word that the current administration 00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:40.580 likes to employ. Only it takes you so far. During 00:12:40.580 --> 00:12:44.460 World War II, we probably, at the very best, 00:12:44.580 --> 00:12:49.620 killed 10 % of the German army. But we still 00:12:49.620 --> 00:12:52.460 won the war. And we won it at the end of the 00:12:52.460 --> 00:12:56.179 day, not just because of hard power, but because 00:12:56.179 --> 00:12:59.000 the way it was used, because the political strategies 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:01.700 that were employed, because the alliances that 00:13:01.700 --> 00:13:04.639 were built, and because of our ability to convince 00:13:05.179 --> 00:13:08.120 our adversaries that there was no way out but 00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:10.620 to work with us but at the end of the day they 00:13:10.620 --> 00:13:12.840 understood that our purpose was not their destruction. 00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:16.860 And that's a really important point too because 00:13:16.860 --> 00:13:19.879 I think people don't realize sometimes the extent 00:13:19.879 --> 00:13:23.379 to which the science exchanges that we have encouraged 00:13:23.379 --> 00:13:26.200 under the soft power and even after World War 00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:29.840 II our willingness to seek out and bring in scientists 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:33.289 that had been part of the Nazi regime. How critical 00:13:33.289 --> 00:13:36.070 that became to our own development, and I think 00:13:36.070 --> 00:13:39.490 it's been underemphasized sometimes, and I'm 00:13:39.490 --> 00:13:42.029 glad you're pointing it out. Everybody in this 00:13:42.029 --> 00:13:43.809 country knows we have issues with immigration, 00:13:44.110 --> 00:13:47.549 but a lot of the things that can help with that, 00:13:47.610 --> 00:13:49.990 not just our laws, which clearly need revision 00:13:49.990 --> 00:13:53.409 and work, but in terms of the reasons people 00:13:53.409 --> 00:13:56.940 come to the United States. I would argue that 00:13:56.940 --> 00:14:00.080 there's been, if we've used greater soft power 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:02.580 more effectively, for example, in Latin America, 00:14:02.740 --> 00:14:04.899 we're trying to address some of the core issues 00:14:04.899 --> 00:14:07.860 that would stop the flow of people trying to 00:14:07.860 --> 00:14:10.240 come into the United States illegally. And I'm 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:12.440 curious as to what your thoughts are on that. 00:14:14.220 --> 00:14:17.259 I agree. And this has been a central part of 00:14:17.259 --> 00:14:19.620 what the United States has tried to do over time, 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:22.080 not just in the Western Hemisphere, but beyond. 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:24.919 But in the Western Hemisphere, in the Caribbean, 00:14:25.100 --> 00:14:28.879 Central America, and South America, much of what 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:32.179 we focused on was first trying to build common 00:14:32.179 --> 00:14:35.279 political values through democratization. We 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:38.899 can build common economic understandings through 00:14:38.899 --> 00:14:42.100 trade, especially free trade agreements, and 00:14:42.100 --> 00:14:44.879 then promote regional integration, especially 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:49.679 of trade, as a driver for economic growth. And 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:54.360 in the process... Not only did the United States, 00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:56.879 working with our partners and friends in the 00:14:56.879 --> 00:15:00.159 region, fundamentally reshape an entire hemisphere 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:02.700 in terms of its political and economic standing 00:15:02.700 --> 00:15:05.779 in the world, but also prepared the hemisphere 00:15:05.779 --> 00:15:08.899 for a process of globalization that was going 00:15:08.899 --> 00:15:12.059 to allow our hemisphere to engage with the great 00:15:12.059 --> 00:15:15.899 markets of Asia and Europe and beyond as democracies 00:15:15.899 --> 00:15:20.840 and as free markets and as... political entities 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:24.360 that had built through the Organization of American 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:26.539 States, through the Summit of the Americans process, 00:15:26.659 --> 00:15:30.419 and other mechanisms, means of conversation, 00:15:30.659 --> 00:15:32.879 cooperation, and collaboration, and peaceful 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:35.879 resolution of disputes that made the Western 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:38.259 Hemisphere this remarkable strategic reserve 00:15:38.259 --> 00:15:43.620 for the United States. And in the process, obviously 00:15:43.620 --> 00:15:47.679 our goal is to expand prosperity. and to convince 00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:50.059 people in the process of expanding prosperity 00:15:50.059 --> 00:15:54.419 that there is a Brazilian dream and a Mexican 00:15:54.419 --> 00:15:58.019 dream and a Salvadoran dream that can be as attractive 00:15:58.019 --> 00:16:01.539 for their citizens as the American dream. And 00:16:01.539 --> 00:16:04.620 obviously, sometimes we're successful in this, 00:16:04.700 --> 00:16:08.259 sometimes we're less successful. But the truth 00:16:08.259 --> 00:16:12.639 of the matter is that you cannot stop immigration 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:16.799 at a frontier. You have to stop it well in front 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:19.759 of that frontier. And some of that is security 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:23.500 related. Some of it is about proper policing 00:16:23.500 --> 00:16:26.139 and ensuring that people are passing through 00:16:26.139 --> 00:16:30.539 legal and orderly checkpoints. But a lot of it 00:16:30.539 --> 00:16:32.980 is about convincing people that life can be better 00:16:32.980 --> 00:16:36.659 at home. And that's a great point. I know, for 00:16:36.659 --> 00:16:39.980 example, that I have a friend who runs an organization 00:16:39.980 --> 00:16:44.350 called Glasswing International. And she has had 00:16:44.350 --> 00:16:46.850 remarkable success with turning people away from 00:16:46.850 --> 00:16:49.110 criminal activity and getting involved with gangs 00:16:49.110 --> 00:16:52.509 by creating programming within the community 00:16:52.509 --> 00:16:55.690 that involves the entire community and involves 00:16:55.690 --> 00:16:58.230 law enforcement, for example. At one point during 00:16:58.230 --> 00:17:00.970 the first Trump administration, she had talked 00:17:00.970 --> 00:17:03.009 with me about partnering and coming in and doing 00:17:03.009 --> 00:17:06.230 some training alongside her partners in the country. 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:10.440 And unfortunately, at that time, and now it happened 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:13.119 again in the last year, all of the funding that 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:15.240 was coming through initiatives with the State 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:19.859 Department was killed, was eliminated. And to 00:17:19.859 --> 00:17:22.599 me, that's such a shame because it takes away 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:25.059 great programming that goes exactly to the point 00:17:25.059 --> 00:17:27.240 that you've just made, which is, you know, how 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:30.619 can we help the society become better? How can 00:17:30.619 --> 00:17:34.259 we build strength and infrastructure within civil 00:17:34.259 --> 00:17:37.450 society in these other countries? if we withdraw 00:17:37.450 --> 00:17:40.769 the funds that are helping to do that exact thing. 00:17:41.049 --> 00:17:43.750 And to me, it's disappointing because it's an 00:17:43.750 --> 00:17:48.910 opportunity missed. Here's a bigger point. When 00:17:48.910 --> 00:17:52.369 John F. Kennedy creates the U .S. Agency for 00:17:52.369 --> 00:17:55.170 International Development, when John F. Kennedy 00:17:55.170 --> 00:17:58.490 creates the Peace Corps, and when the United 00:17:58.490 --> 00:18:03.450 States begins to understand its political engagement 00:18:03.450 --> 00:18:07.380 in the world as not just government to government 00:18:07.380 --> 00:18:10.359 relations, but society to society relations. 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:15.240 When we make a conscious effort to land in a 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:18.099 country and let people know that we're not only 00:18:18.099 --> 00:18:20.359 interested in how we get along with your government, 00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:23.660 but we're interested in how we relate to you 00:18:23.660 --> 00:18:29.519 and how you relate to us. And this is powerful 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:34.799 because no other country has done that. And no 00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:38.339 other country has been able to produce the kinds 00:18:38.339 --> 00:18:40.819 of results we have produced through that over 00:18:40.819 --> 00:18:45.079 time. And for me, the real tragedy of the moment, 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:48.680 as we pull away from that, as we make our foreign 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:52.420 policy more mercantile, more focused on transactions 00:18:52.420 --> 00:18:55.940 and what we can get for something, we are convincing 00:18:55.940 --> 00:18:58.619 people that at the end of the day, We are not 00:18:58.619 --> 00:19:00.779 a reliable partner because we are not prepared 00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:02.660 to make a commitment to them as a people and 00:19:02.660 --> 00:19:05.779 as a society. We're only there for what we can 00:19:05.779 --> 00:19:09.359 get out of it in the moment. And that might be 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:12.160 beneficial in the short term, but it won't be 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:16.019 beneficial in the medium to long term. I agree 00:19:16.019 --> 00:19:18.559 with you because I saw firsthand during the years 00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:21.799 that I worked in Africa, for example, how valuable. 00:19:22.569 --> 00:19:25.549 Those programs were from USAID, from the Peace 00:19:25.549 --> 00:19:27.609 Corps, other initiatives through the State Department, 00:19:27.769 --> 00:19:30.609 for example, creating cooperatives so that rural 00:19:30.609 --> 00:19:33.470 women could learn how to harvest nuts out of 00:19:33.470 --> 00:19:36.869 trees and create argan oil in Morocco, for example, 00:19:36.869 --> 00:19:40.670 which became a huge global phenomenon. But that 00:19:40.670 --> 00:19:43.049 at its root was some of the initiatives that 00:19:43.049 --> 00:19:45.089 came out of the United States government. And 00:19:45.089 --> 00:19:47.390 not only is it helping them build themselves 00:19:47.390 --> 00:19:51.069 economically. But it's creating enormous goodwill 00:19:51.069 --> 00:19:53.170 going to the point that you're saying so that 00:19:53.170 --> 00:19:56.430 when things aren't going in a way that they find 00:19:56.430 --> 00:19:58.670 helpful from the United States government, we 00:19:58.670 --> 00:20:01.750 still have that enormous goodwill that has been 00:20:01.750 --> 00:20:03.970 built up between the nations and a recognition 00:20:03.970 --> 00:20:06.529 that they are people and they're not just a monolith 00:20:06.529 --> 00:20:10.710 sitting in a particular country. And to me, it's 00:20:10.710 --> 00:20:13.950 disappointing when that starts disappearing because... 00:20:14.299 --> 00:20:16.440 Another program that I love within the State 00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:18.400 Department is the International Visitors Leadership 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:21.059 Program, which I know you're very familiar with. 00:20:21.980 --> 00:20:24.160 And I'd like you to talk a little bit more about 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:26.400 it because I was a part of that overseas and 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:29.180 identifying people to bring into that program. 00:20:29.339 --> 00:20:31.220 So could you talk about that just for a couple 00:20:31.220 --> 00:20:33.700 of minutes? The International Visitor Leadership 00:20:33.700 --> 00:20:37.240 Program begins as an effort by the United States 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:41.319 government to identify young, rising political 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:45.299 leaders. of many different political persuasions, 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:49.299 some of them hostile to the United States, who 00:20:49.299 --> 00:20:53.339 could be brought to the US, taken around the 00:20:53.339 --> 00:20:56.579 United States, introduced to lawmakers, introduced 00:20:56.579 --> 00:21:00.380 to executives in our government, introduced to 00:21:00.380 --> 00:21:02.859 representatives of our private sector, of faith 00:21:02.859 --> 00:21:05.539 -based communities, of universities, laboratories, 00:21:06.039 --> 00:21:09.720 you name it. And over about a 30 -day period 00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:13.329 of time, hopefully come away with a much deeper 00:21:13.329 --> 00:21:16.470 and more truthful understanding of the United 00:21:16.470 --> 00:21:20.210 States, and hopefully with a willingness to understand 00:21:20.210 --> 00:21:22.849 us in a positive way and to be prepared to work 00:21:22.849 --> 00:21:25.690 with us over time. And one thing I discovered 00:21:25.690 --> 00:21:28.369 across the more than three decades that I served 00:21:28.369 --> 00:21:31.130 serving in the United States is how many of the 00:21:31.130 --> 00:21:33.690 leaders, especially in my experience in Africa 00:21:33.690 --> 00:21:37.619 and Latin America, had been part of international 00:21:37.619 --> 00:21:40.480 visitor leadership programs at one point or another 00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:42.640 how many presidents how many prime ministers 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:45.359 how many members of congress or the senate or 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:48.420 a parliament had been part of this and so it 00:21:48.420 --> 00:21:52.339 was a hugely effective program one that connected 00:21:52.339 --> 00:21:56.079 us to these societies and left lasting impressions 00:21:56.079 --> 00:22:00.980 on political leaders that served for our benefit 00:22:02.730 --> 00:22:04.529 Completely, especially when you think about a 00:22:04.529 --> 00:22:06.809 time where we may be in conflict or in strong 00:22:06.809 --> 00:22:09.690 disagreement with another country. You know as 00:22:09.690 --> 00:22:11.589 well as I do that if you've got somebody sitting 00:22:11.589 --> 00:22:14.589 across from you or within that delegation that's 00:22:14.589 --> 00:22:16.769 been through that program or another program, 00:22:16.849 --> 00:22:19.369 even through those disagreements, you're going 00:22:19.369 --> 00:22:22.130 to find a willingness to work through that and 00:22:22.130 --> 00:22:24.490 find common ground in a way that you might not 00:22:24.490 --> 00:22:26.789 if the person sitting across from you has had 00:22:26.789 --> 00:22:30.349 no engagement or the program didn't exist. And 00:22:30.349 --> 00:22:32.769 that's absolutely right. but also in a world 00:22:32.769 --> 00:22:35.009 where we oftentimes treat our adversaries as 00:22:35.009 --> 00:22:38.569 caricatures of who they really are, we can present 00:22:38.569 --> 00:22:41.349 ourselves in a way that's not a cartoon. We can 00:22:41.349 --> 00:22:45.109 present ourselves in a way that whoever is sitting 00:22:45.109 --> 00:22:48.230 across the table from us remembers the time that 00:22:48.230 --> 00:22:51.670 they were with a family in Wisconsin, had gone 00:22:51.670 --> 00:22:56.109 to a fish fry, had listened to wolves howl in 00:22:56.109 --> 00:22:59.250 the upper peninsula of Michigan, had traveled 00:22:59.250 --> 00:23:03.630 to the West Coast. and spend time in film studios 00:23:03.630 --> 00:23:07.529 or in universities or in small companies trying 00:23:07.529 --> 00:23:11.829 to get started. And just come away with a much 00:23:11.829 --> 00:23:15.630 more sophisticated, much more nuanced understanding 00:23:15.630 --> 00:23:20.009 of who we are. I think it makes all the difference 00:23:20.009 --> 00:23:22.769 in the world. And thanks for your insights on 00:23:22.769 --> 00:23:26.009 that. I'd like to shift gears a little bit and 00:23:26.009 --> 00:23:28.890 talk about strategy, resources, and expertise. 00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:33.440 When we look at the three core documents for 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:35.880 our nation about national security and broadly 00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:38.480 foreign policy strategy, the annual threat assessment, 00:23:38.700 --> 00:23:41.259 the national security strategy, and the national 00:23:41.259 --> 00:23:43.460 defense strategy, all three of which have been 00:23:43.460 --> 00:23:46.039 released in the past couple of months, we get 00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:49.059 a good idea of the threat picture. But the resources, 00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:52.160 the posture, and our current level of expertise 00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:55.119 is not really lining up with these documents 00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:58.200 as they exist today. So I'd love to know from 00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:02.539 your experience. What does that gap mean, for 00:24:02.539 --> 00:24:05.059 example, with so many unfilled ambassadorial 00:24:05.059 --> 00:24:08.359 positions, so many fewer people working both 00:24:08.359 --> 00:24:11.240 back at, as we call it, main state in Washington, 00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:15.119 D .C., and the embassies, and fewer regional 00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:17.640 and topical experts? So what does that mean when 00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:20.279 we have that disconnect between what the strategy 00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:23.099 and threat documents are telling us and who's 00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:25.299 actually there with expertise on the ground? 00:24:26.140 --> 00:24:30.700 That means the world. In the sense that you can 00:24:30.700 --> 00:24:33.119 describe the problem, but if you can't deal with 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:38.799 it, then good luck. And what the strategy documents 00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:42.759 and the threat assessment documents do is lay 00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:45.720 out the threats and challenges we're facing around 00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:49.200 the world and then describe how it is we're going 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:51.900 to try to position ourselves in terms of our 00:24:51.900 --> 00:24:55.140 policy and strategy and in terms of our resources 00:24:55.140 --> 00:24:58.829 to deal with them. But the connective tissue 00:24:58.829 --> 00:25:05.069 in all of this is the human factor. It's the 00:25:05.069 --> 00:25:07.890 women and men who are our diplomats, our intelligence 00:25:07.890 --> 00:25:12.109 officers, our law enforcement officers, our military 00:25:12.109 --> 00:25:15.190 officers, who are the ones who have to go into 00:25:15.190 --> 00:25:20.809 the world and implement these documents and address 00:25:20.809 --> 00:25:23.750 the reality of these challenges and threats. 00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:27.720 And try to show that the strategies presented 00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:31.900 are going to work in one fashion or another. 00:25:32.180 --> 00:25:36.380 And for me, you know, what has been distressing 00:25:36.380 --> 00:25:42.759 about the most recent efforts to reshape the 00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:46.680 structure of our foreign policy agencies and 00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:49.420 government is that we're shedding expertise. 00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:55.299 We're shedding capability. And in the process, 00:25:55.400 --> 00:26:00.019 we are creating institutions that are going to 00:26:00.019 --> 00:26:03.079 be less capable and that it's going to be very, 00:26:03.180 --> 00:26:09.440 very challenging over time to rebuild that capability 00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:14.240 quickly and easily. In the past, in describing 00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:18.079 this, I oftentimes point out that this is not 00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:20.099 happenstance and this is not by mistake. It's 00:26:20.099 --> 00:26:23.380 purposeful. It's a decision made by this administration. 00:26:24.140 --> 00:26:26.660 that we are not going to be globally engaged 00:26:26.660 --> 00:26:30.240 we are not going to be globally deployed we are 00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:33.059 not going to be expeditionary we are actually 00:26:33.059 --> 00:26:36.279 going to pull in we're going to define a fairly 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:42.640 close kind of circle or sphere of interest and 00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:45.400 influence which we are going to protect and we 00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:47.900 will sally out occasionally in order to meet 00:26:47.900 --> 00:26:51.089 specific challenges but we are not going to be 00:26:51.089 --> 00:26:53.549 dedicating ourselves to establishing global order 00:26:53.549 --> 00:26:57.170 and stability. But in order to do that, not only 00:26:57.170 --> 00:27:00.589 do you need to reestablish your strategy, you 00:27:00.589 --> 00:27:02.690 need to begin tearing down the structures that 00:27:02.690 --> 00:27:04.410 allowed you to be global in the first place. 00:27:05.170 --> 00:27:09.029 And this is similar to what Hernan Cortes did 00:27:09.029 --> 00:27:12.769 when he arrived off the coast of Mexico to begin 00:27:12.769 --> 00:27:17.200 his march on the Aztec capital. which is once 00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:19.460 he got all his men and horses and supplies on 00:27:19.460 --> 00:27:23.180 the beach, he burned his ships to ensure that 00:27:23.180 --> 00:27:26.740 his men had no way back. And I believe that this 00:27:26.740 --> 00:27:28.859 is what's happening now. I believe this administration 00:27:28.859 --> 00:27:30.900 has determined that we're going to burn our ships, 00:27:31.079 --> 00:27:36.880 that we are going to end the structures and the 00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:40.019 personnel who fill those structures that have 00:27:40.019 --> 00:27:43.140 allowed us to be global over time so that we 00:27:43.140 --> 00:27:46.769 don't go backwards. And the problem with that, 00:27:46.809 --> 00:27:49.490 as we both know, though, is burning the ships 00:27:49.490 --> 00:27:52.069 does one thing, but it's not realizing, it's 00:27:52.069 --> 00:27:55.529 not taking into consideration that our enemies 00:27:55.529 --> 00:27:57.690 don't just stay. There are those who wish to 00:27:57.690 --> 00:27:59.970 do us harm. And, you know, from my own perspective, 00:28:00.130 --> 00:28:02.349 when we talked about this, you know, when I look 00:28:02.349 --> 00:28:05.049 at the FBI and I look at the fact that just before 00:28:05.049 --> 00:28:07.809 the president made the decision that we were 00:28:07.809 --> 00:28:13.029 going to attack Iran with Israel, they stripped. 00:28:13.660 --> 00:28:16.480 the FBI squad and the second largest field office 00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:18.720 in the United States, the Washington field office, 00:28:18.900 --> 00:28:22.819 of all of its Iranian expertise. We have squads 00:28:22.819 --> 00:28:25.099 looking Iran as a unique target because we look 00:28:25.099 --> 00:28:28.279 at it within the U .S. government as a counterterrorism 00:28:28.279 --> 00:28:30.500 threat, a counterintelligence threat, and a cyber 00:28:30.500 --> 00:28:33.559 threat. So a very asymmetric as well as symmetric 00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:37.170 threat to the United States. And the FBI director 00:28:37.170 --> 00:28:40.069 stripped them because some of those very people 00:28:40.069 --> 00:28:42.829 had been involved in the investigation of the 00:28:42.829 --> 00:28:45.710 president for the documents that he took to Mar 00:28:45.710 --> 00:28:49.009 -a -Lago. And so without a thought to that and 00:28:49.009 --> 00:28:51.049 without consideration to the fact that we were 00:28:51.049 --> 00:28:54.529 marching into a war with a country that very 00:28:54.529 --> 00:28:56.869 effectively attacks us symmetrically as well 00:28:56.869 --> 00:28:59.450 as asymmetrically, they stripped all that expertise. 00:28:59.890 --> 00:29:02.450 And much like in the State Department, and I'd 00:29:02.450 --> 00:29:05.029 love for you to comment on this. In that world 00:29:05.029 --> 00:29:08.509 that I came from, you don't become a good counterintelligence 00:29:08.509 --> 00:29:11.390 or counterterrorism agent overnight or out of 00:29:11.390 --> 00:29:14.829 the FBI Academy. It takes at least five years 00:29:14.829 --> 00:29:18.089 to develop that expertise. And, you know, there 00:29:18.089 --> 00:29:19.970 was a statement that, oh, he's going to backfill 00:29:19.970 --> 00:29:22.730 some of those people from new agents training 00:29:22.730 --> 00:29:25.410 out of Conoco. But they're not going to know 00:29:25.410 --> 00:29:28.529 what to do. As smart as they may be, as dedicated 00:29:28.529 --> 00:29:31.490 as they are, they can't do that work overnight. 00:29:31.549 --> 00:29:34.359 You can't read a file and understand. what it 00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:36.859 means when Iranian proxies are going to take 00:29:36.859 --> 00:29:40.240 actions, like the Lebanese man in Michigan who 00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:43.079 attacked the synagogue. Horrible attack. But 00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:45.460 if you looked at the situation, you'd recognize, 00:29:45.619 --> 00:29:49.420 okay, most of the man's family was just killed 00:29:49.420 --> 00:29:55.039 by attacks by Israel into Lebanon. I'm not justifying 00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:57.299 his behavior by any stretch of the imagination, 00:29:57.619 --> 00:30:00.819 but this is foreseeable. And I think by stripping 00:30:00.819 --> 00:30:03.779 the expertise... We're creating a situation that 00:30:03.779 --> 00:30:06.759 makes us far more vulnerable, not just within 00:30:06.759 --> 00:30:09.259 the borders of the United States, but overseas. 00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:11.359 A couple of days ago, an American journalist 00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:14.619 was kidnapped in Iraq. And they believe at this 00:30:14.619 --> 00:30:18.839 point it was by Iranian proxy organizations in 00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:21.759 Iraq who kidnapped her. So these are obviously 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:24.859 not making us safer. So I'd love to know from 00:30:24.859 --> 00:30:27.859 the State Department perspective, you know, even 00:30:27.859 --> 00:30:30.220 if they try and backfill, to use a terminology. 00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:33.240 with people coming in what does that do for the 00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:35.920 state department's ability to effectively conduct 00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:39.480 its mission outside the united states been grievously 00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:44.839 harmed there's no doubt about that but but just 00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:48.539 as bad as as the the strip down of the department 00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:51.940 has been has been the unwillingness to to fill 00:30:51.940 --> 00:30:56.200 posts with presidentially appointed senate confirmed 00:30:56.200 --> 00:30:59.170 ambassadors Historically, there's always been 00:30:59.170 --> 00:31:02.130 a mix of political appointees and career appointees. 00:31:02.609 --> 00:31:06.089 And we've managed it well over time, bringing 00:31:06.089 --> 00:31:08.589 in people who are closely connected with the 00:31:08.589 --> 00:31:10.710 administration, closely connected with whomever 00:31:10.710 --> 00:31:14.190 the president is, but then leavening the mix 00:31:14.190 --> 00:31:18.529 with experts who have dedicated an entire life 00:31:18.529 --> 00:31:21.930 to being professional diplomats, who know languages 00:31:21.930 --> 00:31:24.170 and cultures well, and who know how to get things 00:31:24.170 --> 00:31:27.880 done overseas. But those numbers have declined 00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:32.220 dramatically. But even now, this is an administration 00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:34.799 that's reluctant to put people forward for many 00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:39.519 of our large postings around the world. And it's 00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:43.700 quite remarkable that we find ourselves in a 00:31:43.700 --> 00:31:47.720 war right now in the Gulf region, in the Middle 00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:50.539 East, where in most of these countries, we do 00:31:50.539 --> 00:31:53.700 not have ambassadors. We have charge d 'affaires. 00:31:55.020 --> 00:31:58.519 And this, you know, nearly a year and a half 00:31:58.519 --> 00:32:04.799 into an administration is pitiful, to be polite. 00:32:06.019 --> 00:32:11.200 But listen, here's the deal, in my opinion. United 00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:14.339 States is built over time. The best diplomatic 00:32:14.339 --> 00:32:17.880 service in the world, the best intelligence services 00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:21.180 in the world, the best law enforcement agencies 00:32:21.180 --> 00:32:25.109 in the world. the best development agencies in 00:32:25.109 --> 00:32:31.730 the world. And we are tearing them down and redirecting 00:32:31.730 --> 00:32:36.410 them in a way that might meet an immediate political 00:32:36.410 --> 00:32:40.789 need, but will not be able to respond to a world 00:32:40.789 --> 00:32:43.450 that is quite uninterested in our domestic politics 00:32:43.450 --> 00:32:48.329 and quite interested in pursuing their own interests 00:32:48.329 --> 00:32:51.410 and purpose. And we're not going to be able to 00:32:51.410 --> 00:32:53.549 turn away from them. We're not going to be able 00:32:53.549 --> 00:32:55.670 to run away from them. They will come and look 00:32:55.670 --> 00:32:59.509 for us unless we're prepared to meet them beyond 00:32:59.509 --> 00:33:04.970 our frontiers. Unfortunately, I think setting 00:33:04.970 --> 00:33:07.730 us up for a dynamic we're going to deal with 00:33:07.730 --> 00:33:10.609 long into the future and perhaps, like when I 00:33:10.609 --> 00:33:12.309 look at the FBI, I'd love to know your thoughts 00:33:12.309 --> 00:33:15.369 about this with State, but... I think it's going 00:33:15.369 --> 00:33:18.230 to take half a generation to try and rebuild 00:33:18.230 --> 00:33:21.589 things and get that expertise back in place that 00:33:21.589 --> 00:33:24.509 we have lost. And I would imagine it's probably 00:33:24.509 --> 00:33:27.509 a similar outlook for states. I would agree. 00:33:27.710 --> 00:33:30.609 Yeah, no, it's going to take quite a while to 00:33:30.609 --> 00:33:33.529 rebuild the expertise that we've lost in a very 00:33:33.529 --> 00:33:36.710 short period of time. And to convince people 00:33:36.710 --> 00:33:41.650 that these are careers that are more than careers, 00:33:41.730 --> 00:33:44.839 they're locations. They're something you dedicate 00:33:44.839 --> 00:33:47.279 your life to. And not just your life, but the 00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:52.259 life of your family. Because families come along, 00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:56.039 whether we're overseas or in Washington, D .C., 00:33:56.039 --> 00:33:58.859 and they become part of this larger work, in 00:33:58.859 --> 00:34:05.019 my case, of American diplomacy. But it will not 00:34:05.019 --> 00:34:10.039 be easy to replace. On an optimistic note, I 00:34:10.039 --> 00:34:12.320 love that one of the things you're doing today 00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:15.280 is teaching at Princeton. And you're working 00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:17.980 directly with students. And so I'm curious, we 00:34:17.980 --> 00:34:19.840 touched on this a little bit, but I'd love for 00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:24.860 you to share from a Gen Z perspective, how do 00:34:24.860 --> 00:34:28.900 they see America's role in the world? And what 00:34:28.900 --> 00:34:31.340 do you think they're getting right or missing? 00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:33.179 I'm curious as to what you're hearing from the 00:34:33.179 --> 00:34:35.300 students, essentially. And do you think that 00:34:35.300 --> 00:34:37.840 will alter how our foreign policy looks in the 00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:41.849 future? It's a great question. And it's something 00:34:41.849 --> 00:34:44.230 that I've thought a lot about. I've been teaching 00:34:44.230 --> 00:34:47.869 for seven years now. And I teach a senior seminar 00:34:47.869 --> 00:34:50.429 at Princeton called Diplomacy and the U .S. Role 00:34:50.429 --> 00:34:53.090 in the World. And so there's a lot of discussion 00:34:53.090 --> 00:34:57.050 with these students about what the United States 00:34:57.050 --> 00:34:59.250 is, what it should be, how it should relate to 00:34:59.250 --> 00:35:02.170 our partners and allies and our adversaries. 00:35:02.929 --> 00:35:06.909 And there's a couple of things that have come 00:35:06.909 --> 00:35:10.389 clear to me. First, and maybe most interesting, 00:35:10.510 --> 00:35:12.889 is that all of my students were born after 9 00:35:12.889 --> 00:35:16.650 -11. Which means that for them, the attacks of 00:35:16.650 --> 00:35:20.590 9 -11 are like what Pearl Harbor was for us. 00:35:21.449 --> 00:35:24.710 A horrific event, but a historical event. One 00:35:24.710 --> 00:35:29.349 they didn't live through and feel. Like you, 00:35:29.590 --> 00:35:33.469 or probably like you, I knew more than a few 00:35:33.469 --> 00:35:35.570 people who were killed in New York and at the 00:35:35.570 --> 00:35:41.309 Pentagon. knew some of them very well. And so 00:35:41.309 --> 00:35:45.510 9 -11 was this remarkable moment where we realized 00:35:45.510 --> 00:35:49.809 that we have enemies, profound enemies, who were 00:35:49.809 --> 00:35:55.489 prepared to do us grievous harm. So my students 00:35:55.489 --> 00:35:59.250 view 9 -11 differently. Also, their experience 00:35:59.250 --> 00:36:01.530 of American power has been different because 00:36:01.530 --> 00:36:04.010 of Afghanistan, because of Iraq, because of the 00:36:04.010 --> 00:36:06.250 things we've mentioned, the global financial 00:36:06.250 --> 00:36:10.420 recession. the challenges posed by COVID. And 00:36:10.420 --> 00:36:13.559 so they see the United States as an obviously 00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:16.579 powerful country, but not necessarily one that 00:36:16.579 --> 00:36:20.579 gets its way, and not necessarily one that is 00:36:20.579 --> 00:36:23.539 a directing and dominant force in the world, 00:36:23.619 --> 00:36:27.980 but instead one that has to adjust and accommodate 00:36:27.980 --> 00:36:30.619 to any number of other challenges emerging around 00:36:30.619 --> 00:36:35.280 it. And thirdly, these are students who, for 00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:40.300 the most part, know the world reasonably well 00:36:40.300 --> 00:36:42.639 for their age. Many of them have lived overseas. 00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:46.820 Many of them speak more than one language, which 00:36:46.820 --> 00:36:48.980 I did not when I was in university. I learned 00:36:48.980 --> 00:36:52.019 all of my languages in one service. Me as well. 00:36:52.139 --> 00:36:59.820 Same thing. And so they just understand the United 00:36:59.820 --> 00:37:03.519 States differently. And for them, when they hear 00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:07.280 established national security figures, whether 00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:09.340 they'd be presidents or secretaries of state 00:37:09.340 --> 00:37:12.519 or national security advisors, talking about 00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:16.260 American strategy and foreign policy, American 00:37:16.260 --> 00:37:21.260 purpose, it's almost as if I was watching a Charlie 00:37:21.260 --> 00:37:24.880 Brown cartoon like The Great Pumpkin, where when 00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:27.239 adults show up, you only see them from the knee 00:37:27.239 --> 00:37:30.570 down. and when they speak all you hear is wah 00:37:30.570 --> 00:37:34.710 wah wah wah that's what these young men and women 00:37:34.710 --> 00:37:38.449 hear they hear wah wah wah they're just not buying 00:37:38.449 --> 00:37:42.250 it because they think it relates and refers to 00:37:42.250 --> 00:37:46.389 a world that they are not living in and and so 00:37:46.389 --> 00:37:49.449 so that's disturbing and distressing because 00:37:49.449 --> 00:37:52.469 it means there's not only lack of comprehension 00:37:52.469 --> 00:37:56.170 but lack of trust in political leadership but 00:37:56.170 --> 00:38:00.170 what um impresses me about these young women 00:38:00.170 --> 00:38:03.510 and men is, first of all, they're smart, they're 00:38:03.510 --> 00:38:06.510 hardworking, they're ambitious, and they're not 00:38:06.510 --> 00:38:09.670 fearful. They're prepared to throw themselves 00:38:09.670 --> 00:38:12.030 into the world, and they want to be successful. 00:38:12.690 --> 00:38:19.369 But they have this almost inherent understanding 00:38:19.369 --> 00:38:24.510 that to be successful, they need a peaceful and 00:38:24.510 --> 00:38:27.619 connected world. That if they find themselves 00:38:27.619 --> 00:38:31.420 in a world defined by conflict, that they're 00:38:31.420 --> 00:38:33.960 going to become part of that conflict and that's 00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:36.840 not going to be good for them. And therefore, 00:38:36.940 --> 00:38:41.639 they're very interested, I think, in what you 00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:45.159 call soft power. They're very interested in how 00:38:45.159 --> 00:38:48.719 to engage in a larger world in a way that will 00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:51.420 allow them to be successful and be able to live 00:38:51.420 --> 00:38:56.730 long lives. And I'm hopeful about this because 00:38:56.730 --> 00:39:00.050 I think what it means is that there is going 00:39:00.050 --> 00:39:04.329 to be greater demand on our politicians to do 00:39:04.329 --> 00:39:08.389 things right. And I think that's an important 00:39:08.389 --> 00:39:11.429 point. You know, when we do these podcast episodes 00:39:11.429 --> 00:39:14.130 and it is, I love hearing what you're saying 00:39:14.130 --> 00:39:16.469 about your students. And I hear similar things 00:39:16.469 --> 00:39:19.300 from. The young people that I mentor, in fact, 00:39:19.340 --> 00:39:21.500 we now have a fellow helping out on the podcast 00:39:21.500 --> 00:39:24.360 who is a senior from my alma mater, Muhlenberg 00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:29.079 College, Edna Asima, and I love that. But I think 00:39:29.079 --> 00:39:31.059 an important point that you've gotten to, and 00:39:31.059 --> 00:39:33.039 I'd love for you to touch on it as we close this 00:39:33.039 --> 00:39:35.480 out, and because I'm sure we both have views, 00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:37.360 is, you know, people listen to this and they 00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:40.079 think about, well, is there anything I can do 00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:42.440 or what can I do? What does that look like? You 00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:44.889 know, and certainly we always say. you know, 00:39:44.909 --> 00:39:47.309 reach out to your members of Congress. But do 00:39:47.309 --> 00:39:49.730 you have any thoughts that you'd like to leave 00:39:49.730 --> 00:39:51.730 the audience with, perhaps reflecting on your 00:39:51.730 --> 00:39:54.670 students about concrete steps people can take 00:39:54.670 --> 00:39:56.789 or what you're seeing your students take in terms 00:39:56.789 --> 00:39:59.449 of steps to move us forward in a more constructive 00:39:59.449 --> 00:40:03.409 way? Yeah, there's a few, actually, and this 00:40:03.409 --> 00:40:06.909 is a great question. I mean, first and foremost, 00:40:07.150 --> 00:40:10.190 because of the nature of technology, because 00:40:10.190 --> 00:40:13.429 of the connected nature of our societies, and 00:40:13.429 --> 00:40:17.389 because of globalization we live in a country 00:40:17.389 --> 00:40:19.829 and in a world in which there's no place to hide 00:40:19.829 --> 00:40:23.869 and i tell my students you know you can go live 00:40:23.869 --> 00:40:26.829 in a cave with a goat and the world will find 00:40:26.829 --> 00:40:30.989 you and it will demand something of you and so 00:40:30.989 --> 00:40:33.989 it's best to understand the world and ensure 00:40:33.989 --> 00:40:36.750 that when the world comes looking for you it's 00:40:36.750 --> 00:40:39.590 not there to kill you but it's there to have 00:40:39.590 --> 00:40:44.630 you do something positive And the second larger 00:40:44.630 --> 00:40:47.809 point is that we live in this period of remarkable 00:40:47.809 --> 00:40:51.989 transformation, political, economic, and social, 00:40:52.090 --> 00:40:57.710 and that this rising generation is going to play 00:40:57.710 --> 00:41:01.130 a role in shaping the world we live in. In other 00:41:01.130 --> 00:41:03.110 words, it's going to be a world of their making. 00:41:04.329 --> 00:41:06.989 That was not true when you and I came into the 00:41:06.989 --> 00:41:11.860 U .S. government in the 1980s, because... The 00:41:11.860 --> 00:41:15.320 Cold War was alive and well. The Soviet Union 00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:17.619 was going strong. We were in a fight for our 00:41:17.619 --> 00:41:20.960 life. And nobody ever asked you or me whether 00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:24.039 or not the Cold War was a good idea. Nobody asked 00:41:24.039 --> 00:41:26.639 you or me whether or not the Soviet Union was 00:41:26.639 --> 00:41:29.739 just a misunderstood adversary that would change 00:41:29.739 --> 00:41:31.860 its behavior if we talked to it differently. 00:41:32.519 --> 00:41:34.719 We were just told, hey, listen, we're in a fight. 00:41:34.820 --> 00:41:37.320 This is a fight for our lives. And now so are 00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:41.400 you. So get to work. But we're in this place 00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:44.099 right now where as the American people try to 00:41:44.099 --> 00:41:46.820 determine what the purpose of American presence 00:41:46.820 --> 00:41:49.699 in the world is, what engagement is, as we try 00:41:49.699 --> 00:41:52.440 to understand how we link our power and our values, 00:41:52.659 --> 00:41:56.840 how we link our interests and our values, this 00:41:56.840 --> 00:41:58.840 younger generation is going to play a fundamental 00:41:58.840 --> 00:42:04.480 role in how that happens. And what a wonderful 00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:08.750 opportunity. What an incredible... challenge 00:42:08.750 --> 00:42:11.610 to be presented with and to know that what you 00:42:11.610 --> 00:42:14.329 do is going to have an influence that's going 00:42:14.329 --> 00:42:17.329 to carry through the rest of this century. And 00:42:17.329 --> 00:42:22.730 so for me, what I try to impart on the younger 00:42:22.730 --> 00:42:25.690 generation is that they should be excited by 00:42:25.690 --> 00:42:27.789 what's in front of them and that they should 00:42:27.789 --> 00:42:30.829 realize that there will be tough moments, but 00:42:30.829 --> 00:42:33.690 that in many ways, as Condi Rice used to say 00:42:33.690 --> 00:42:38.150 after a very tough day, welcome to the NFL. This 00:42:38.150 --> 00:42:40.670 is going to be a lot like the NFL, where there's 00:42:40.670 --> 00:42:42.869 going to be a lot of great plays and a lot of 00:42:42.869 --> 00:42:45.710 glory, but occasionally those plays are going 00:42:45.710 --> 00:42:49.090 to hurt. And that what you need to do is just 00:42:49.090 --> 00:42:53.210 get back up and get into the huddle and ready 00:42:53.210 --> 00:42:56.889 yourself for the next play. And, you know, there's 00:42:56.889 --> 00:43:00.329 no way to kind of chart a life in this world. 00:43:00.409 --> 00:43:03.329 You have to be open to the serendipity of life 00:43:03.329 --> 00:43:07.800 and the opportunities that are presented. But 00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:12.400 having a clear understanding of what it means 00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:14.960 to be an American, having a clear understanding 00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:17.679 of what the United States is, is an important 00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:21.039 part of all of this. And so that's what I spend 00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:25.539 a lot of my time on. Well, thank you. I cannot 00:43:25.539 --> 00:43:28.400 think of a better way to end this episode, Tom. 00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:32.340 I am so grateful for your time, your service, 00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:34.860 everything that you're doing today with these 00:43:34.860 --> 00:43:38.550 students. sharing this with us because it means 00:43:38.550 --> 00:43:41.389 a lot and it gives me a lot of hope. You and 00:43:41.389 --> 00:43:43.769 I talked about we're both optimists at heart, 00:43:43.869 --> 00:43:47.050 but to hear this coming from you, from your students 00:43:47.050 --> 00:43:51.489 is just terrific. So thank you so much for joining 00:43:51.489 --> 00:43:53.969 us today. I'm really grateful for your time. 00:43:54.789 --> 00:43:56.389 Thank you. This has been wonderful. I really, 00:43:56.469 --> 00:43:59.110 really appreciate it. All the best. Thank you 00:43:59.110 --> 00:44:02.369 so much. And to everybody else out there, thank 00:44:02.369 --> 00:44:04.989 you for joining us for this episode of The Steady 00:44:04.989 --> 00:44:08.099 Space Sentinel. We'd love to hear from you, both 00:44:08.099 --> 00:44:11.000 your reaction to this episode and ideas you might 00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:14.340 have for future episodes. Thanks again. This 00:44:14.340 --> 00:44:20.400 is Lauren Anderson, Still Standing Watch. Thank 00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:22.679 you for listening to the Steady State Sentinel 00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:26.159 podcast. Don't miss out on more insights and 00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:28.940 exposes from America's premier global security 00:44:28.940 --> 00:44:33.059 experts. Also, subscribe to our sub stack. at 00:44:33.059 --> 00:44:37.420 substack .com slash at SteadyState1 and follow 00:44:37.420 --> 00:44:39.860 our social media and join us right here next 00:44:39.860 --> 00:44:43.360 week for another exciting edition. 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