WEBVTT - generated with AI. 00:00:00.430 --> 00:00:03.310 Something is changing in our country, and most 00:00:03.310 --> 00:00:12.390 people feel it before they can explain it. Well, 00:00:12.410 --> 00:00:14.990 today I'm joined by Rich Lojas, founder and executive 00:00:14.990 --> 00:00:18.250 director of Leaving MAGA, an organization that 00:00:18.250 --> 00:00:20.449 supports people who've left or are questioning 00:00:20.449 --> 00:00:23.149 the MAGA movement and helps families navigate 00:00:23.149 --> 00:00:26.250 reconciliation. Rich has spoken openly about 00:00:26.250 --> 00:00:28.469 his own journey out of MAGA and now works to 00:00:28.469 --> 00:00:30.829 create a safe off -ramp for others who want to 00:00:30.829 --> 00:00:32.750 change. So it's really great to have you with 00:00:32.750 --> 00:00:34.929 us, Rich. John, thank you. It's good to see you 00:00:34.929 --> 00:00:38.710 again. Very good. So on the New York Radio Hour, 00:00:38.850 --> 00:00:40.829 which is pretty heady stuff, you said leaving 00:00:40.829 --> 00:00:43.770 MAGA is hard because it isn't just politics, 00:00:43.829 --> 00:00:46.810 it's identity, belonging, and emotional need. 00:00:47.369 --> 00:00:49.570 When you think about your own journey, what did 00:00:49.570 --> 00:00:51.390 you have to give up before you could finally 00:00:51.390 --> 00:00:55.270 leave? Yeah, I... You know, my entree into MAGA 00:00:55.270 --> 00:01:00.170 was a disillusionment with politics as a whole 00:01:00.170 --> 00:01:04.150 and the two -party system and feeling that democracy 00:01:04.150 --> 00:01:08.310 had failed most Americans. And I had never been 00:01:08.310 --> 00:01:12.069 a part of a political community until MAGA. And 00:01:12.069 --> 00:01:16.209 when MAGA came on the scene, I found a sense 00:01:16.209 --> 00:01:19.569 of purpose. Feelings of belonging and gathering 00:01:19.569 --> 00:01:22.709 and camaraderie. And MAGA for me was not just 00:01:22.709 --> 00:01:27.310 something I did. It did shape my worldview and 00:01:27.310 --> 00:01:30.769 my identity and my being and my personhood. And 00:01:30.769 --> 00:01:34.590 to walk away from that was difficult for a couple 00:01:34.590 --> 00:01:36.849 different reasons. The first was I had developed 00:01:36.849 --> 00:01:40.870 and cultivated a second family. And that second 00:01:40.870 --> 00:01:44.349 family, as embarrassed as I am to admit this, 00:01:44.409 --> 00:01:47.010 sometimes took precedence over my own blood family. 00:01:47.450 --> 00:01:50.730 And as a result of my MAGA activism, I spent 00:01:50.730 --> 00:01:53.170 money that would have gone to my family. I neglected 00:01:53.170 --> 00:01:55.909 at times my duties as a parent and as a husband. 00:01:56.469 --> 00:02:00.310 That was one reason that made it really challenging 00:02:00.310 --> 00:02:05.069 to leave. And the other reason is I had to accept 00:02:05.069 --> 00:02:09.909 after a year of doubts and confusion that I had 00:02:09.909 --> 00:02:12.509 allowed myself to have been lied to and believe 00:02:12.509 --> 00:02:17.740 those lies and shaped an entire persona. Based 00:02:17.740 --> 00:02:20.620 on lies, falsehoods and conspiracy theories and 00:02:20.620 --> 00:02:24.159 had to come to the have a reckoning and come 00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:28.419 to terms with the fact that I had believed so 00:02:28.419 --> 00:02:31.280 much of what was false. You know, everything 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:35.120 ranging from. The belief that Democrats were 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:38.419 coming for our guns and schools were indoctrinating 00:02:38.419 --> 00:02:43.449 children into transgender ideology and. And liberals 00:02:43.449 --> 00:02:46.090 and progressives were trying to replace white 00:02:46.090 --> 00:02:48.930 people with brown people and foreigners. I held 00:02:48.930 --> 00:02:51.129 some of those beliefs and I knew others who also 00:02:51.129 --> 00:02:56.349 held those beliefs. So to walk away from MAGA 00:02:56.349 --> 00:03:01.110 after being in this community for more than half 00:03:01.110 --> 00:03:04.610 a decade, it did make it really difficult because 00:03:04.610 --> 00:03:06.610 I knew that I was going to walk away from something 00:03:06.610 --> 00:03:10.810 that I was really so heavily invested in. For 00:03:10.810 --> 00:03:12.569 listeners that are meeting you for the first 00:03:12.569 --> 00:03:15.590 time, what's sort of the short version of your 00:03:15.590 --> 00:03:19.889 journey and then out of it? You mentioned what 00:03:19.889 --> 00:03:23.250 emotional need MAGA meant for you. But when you 00:03:23.250 --> 00:03:26.150 think back, what made those conspiratorial explanations 00:03:26.150 --> 00:03:30.090 feel more convincing than mainstream ones? Well, 00:03:30.110 --> 00:03:32.030 for those who are meeting me for the first time, 00:03:32.110 --> 00:03:36.169 I would like to apologize for my past MAGA activism. 00:03:36.729 --> 00:03:40.629 It was... My belief when I was in MAGA that anybody 00:03:40.629 --> 00:03:44.930 who was not with us was against us and should 00:03:44.930 --> 00:03:48.930 be considered an existential political threat 00:03:48.930 --> 00:03:52.729 to myself, my country, my livelihood, and my 00:03:52.729 --> 00:03:56.569 family. And as part of my disenchantment with 00:03:56.569 --> 00:04:00.830 politics in 2015 and 16, I thought the way to 00:04:00.830 --> 00:04:05.849 save democracy was to destroy it. And I was very 00:04:05.849 --> 00:04:09.469 much attracted to... the outsider candidacy of 00:04:09.469 --> 00:04:13.069 Trump because I saw him as someone who was willing 00:04:13.069 --> 00:04:15.250 and able to obliterate the established political 00:04:15.250 --> 00:04:18.750 order. And while I don't say this as a self -defense, 00:04:19.069 --> 00:04:22.709 because all of us have agency and no one coaxed 00:04:22.709 --> 00:04:25.750 or coerced me into supporting Trump, I think 00:04:25.750 --> 00:04:31.699 my story is a cautionary tale because I... allowed 00:04:31.699 --> 00:04:36.000 myself to be influenced by MAGA media and right 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:38.959 -wing propaganda and agitprop. And I think that 00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:43.259 it's important to emphasize to people who are 00:04:43.259 --> 00:04:45.699 seeing this that for those of them who have friends 00:04:45.699 --> 00:04:49.040 and family in MAGA, that we are all susceptible 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:53.240 to being influenced and we are vulnerable. propaganda. 00:04:53.620 --> 00:04:56.819 And I fell really hard for it. I was under the 00:04:56.819 --> 00:04:59.439 belief that if Hillary and the Democrats had 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:03.500 won, that we would have seen only that Democrats 00:05:03.500 --> 00:05:06.120 would have seized power indefinitely and permanently. 00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:10.439 So I didn't just support Trump and then walk 00:05:10.439 --> 00:05:12.800 away and then come back four years later. I got 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:14.899 deeper and deeper in this community. I became 00:05:14.899 --> 00:05:17.600 a professional. I professionally produced the 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:20.920 podcast. I was writing for MAGA Media. I had 00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:23.560 bylines in places like Fox and The Federalist 00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:27.439 and Real Clear Politics, World Net Daily, which 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:29.660 is the site that originated the Obama birther 00:05:29.660 --> 00:05:33.639 conspiracy. I was very much unapologetically 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:38.019 and publicly a Trump and MAGA supporter. But 00:05:38.019 --> 00:05:42.360 my first crack started to show significantly 00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:47.480 in the summer of 2021. Which, if we recall, that 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:50.360 was when the Delta surge of COVID was ravaging 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:54.019 the country. And my governor, Ron DeSantis, decided 00:05:54.019 --> 00:05:56.959 to platform anti -vaxxers at a press conference. 00:05:57.420 --> 00:06:00.240 And I'm a parent of two small kids. And I remember 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:03.819 thinking that parents around the country were 00:06:03.819 --> 00:06:06.060 in intensive care units with their children who 00:06:06.060 --> 00:06:08.839 were befalling ill to COVID. They were greeting 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:11.360 their children at morgues, those who had died 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:14.220 of the virus. And it really shocked and confused 00:06:14.220 --> 00:06:17.279 me why Ron DeSantis became an anti -vaxxer after 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:20.339 being a proponent of it. And after that happened, 00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:23.100 John, I decided to do something that sounds really 00:06:23.100 --> 00:06:26.139 simple but was profoundly life -changing and 00:06:26.139 --> 00:06:28.720 altering for me, which was I diversified my news 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:31.819 and information sources. And I went back and 00:06:31.819 --> 00:06:36.100 looked at, for example, January 6th. January 00:06:36.100 --> 00:06:39.579 6th was not an event that I supported. But I 00:06:39.579 --> 00:06:41.620 thought that it was hyperbolized into a bigger 00:06:41.620 --> 00:06:44.600 deal than it really was. And then after expanding 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:47.120 my news and information sources and widening 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:50.079 my information aperture a little bit, I realized 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:53.680 that January 6th was, in fact, an attempt by 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:56.100 the president to overturn a free and fair election. 00:06:56.600 --> 00:07:00.279 And then the final straw for me was on May 24th, 00:07:00.300 --> 00:07:03.360 2022, which was the Uvalde, Texas, school shooting. 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:07.750 That was the day that I quietly left MAGA. But 00:07:07.750 --> 00:07:11.149 something had really been gnawing at me because 00:07:11.149 --> 00:07:14.069 I was so unapologetically public in my support 00:07:14.069 --> 00:07:16.670 for Trump, I felt that I needed to be public 00:07:16.670 --> 00:07:20.189 in my renunciation. And it was on August 30th 00:07:20.189 --> 00:07:24.230 of 2022, it's the day I call my leaving MAGAversary, 00:07:24.269 --> 00:07:27.449 I wrote a mea culpa. And in that article, I said 00:07:27.449 --> 00:07:29.889 that I was sorry for supporting Trump and MAGA, 00:07:29.970 --> 00:07:32.889 and I wanted to apologize to anyone I may have 00:07:32.889 --> 00:07:35.579 hurt with my words, deeds, and rhetoric. And 00:07:35.579 --> 00:07:37.720 I published the story and the God's honest truth, 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:39.740 John, is I never thought that anybody would care. 00:07:40.379 --> 00:07:42.839 But it turned out that people did care. And since 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:45.939 then, I've been recounting my story. And born 00:07:45.939 --> 00:07:48.240 from all of that was our organization, Weaving 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:51.899 MAGA, which I founded as a new community for 00:07:51.899 --> 00:07:53.759 people who leave and for those who are having 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:56.459 doubts, as well as for friends and family of 00:07:56.459 --> 00:08:00.240 those still in the thrall of MAGA. So you talk, 00:08:00.279 --> 00:08:02.899 it's fascinating. And, you know, your journey 00:08:02.899 --> 00:08:05.779 is one I think that can be really. eye -opening 00:08:05.779 --> 00:08:08.720 for others. But you talk about it as a community 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:11.240 and looking for different communities. You've 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:13.360 also talked about it, and I think I look at it 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:15.680 as almost like an addiction or entertainment. 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:20.060 But I remember in some of your discussions, you've 00:08:20.060 --> 00:08:23.019 talked about anger addiction. So in practice, 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:27.040 socially, what did outrage do for you day -to 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:29.980 -day, like energy, confidence, and connection 00:08:29.980 --> 00:08:31.959 and stuff like that? So it's all of these things, 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:34.279 right? It's community, it's anger, it's entertainment. 00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:38.259 What do you mean by that when you say anger addiction? 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:42.120 You know, being in MAGA was exhilarating and 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:45.399 enthralling and communal. But it was all of that 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:49.500 until it wasn't. After leaving MAGA, I realized 00:08:49.500 --> 00:08:53.299 that I was in these perpetual states of rage 00:08:53.299 --> 00:08:58.279 and fear and despair and paranoia. And we do 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:01.059 these Tuesday night support groups with our organization 00:09:01.059 --> 00:09:04.529 for friends and family. We do them online. Every 00:09:04.529 --> 00:09:06.870 single week, they're free, they're open to friends 00:09:06.870 --> 00:09:11.230 and family. And we talk a lot about the addiction 00:09:11.230 --> 00:09:14.830 to rage. It creates an actual dopamine effect 00:09:14.830 --> 00:09:19.269 in the individual. And I'm not learned enough 00:09:19.269 --> 00:09:22.509 or qualified to speak to all of the psychology 00:09:22.509 --> 00:09:28.509 of it, but I was always angry and rageful toward 00:09:28.509 --> 00:09:31.289 my political opponents because there always needed 00:09:31.289 --> 00:09:35.549 to be an enemy. who was shared within the community. 00:09:35.830 --> 00:09:40.570 And that addiction is what created this really 00:09:40.570 --> 00:09:43.669 militant mindset that still exists in MAGA to 00:09:43.669 --> 00:09:47.389 this day, which is, if you were not 100 % with 00:09:47.389 --> 00:09:49.950 us, you were considered fully against us. And 00:09:49.950 --> 00:09:52.570 it didn't matter, John, if you were 99 .9 % with 00:09:52.570 --> 00:09:56.629 us. If you were not 100 % with us, we considered 00:09:56.629 --> 00:10:00.179 you an enemy political combatant. And I was on 00:10:00.179 --> 00:10:03.480 the right side of history as the real American. 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:07.519 And everybody else who was against us, they were 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:10.159 the fake Americans. And that way of thinking 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:15.620 was really traumatizing. And I had to de -traumatize 00:10:15.620 --> 00:10:19.440 myself after leaving MAGA because I always say 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:23.139 that leaving MAGA was good for my soul, my psyche, 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:25.919 and my mental health. And for anyone seeing this 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:29.200 who's in MAGA, especially if they're having doubts, 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:33.000 I want them to know that today is a stellar day 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:37.820 to leave MAGA because the people who were our 00:10:37.820 --> 00:10:41.480 enemy, John, we considered them a they. They 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:43.840 were always out to get us. There was always a 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:47.379 they coming for the guns, indoctrinating our 00:10:47.379 --> 00:10:52.100 kids, replacing white people. They, people who 00:10:52.100 --> 00:10:55.259 believe that... that they were disenfranchised 00:10:55.259 --> 00:10:57.779 and their votes defrauded as a result of they, 00:10:57.940 --> 00:11:03.120 Democrats and liberals. It was a way of being 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:09.559 that was only exciting until it wasn't. And I 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:13.200 came to realize just how much I had been subsumed 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:16.419 into this world of hate and anger being in MAGA 00:11:16.419 --> 00:11:19.850 because... MAGA is an extremist group because 00:11:19.850 --> 00:11:23.330 it encourages its adherents to dehumanize, vilify, 00:11:23.350 --> 00:11:28.490 and demonize its opponents. Let's talk about 00:11:28.490 --> 00:11:34.049 the media, because that rage, there is someone, 00:11:34.309 --> 00:11:36.490 there are people who are pushing that for their 00:11:36.490 --> 00:11:38.789 own means, whether it's money or political power 00:11:38.789 --> 00:11:41.350 or whatever. So you consume this steady diet 00:11:41.350 --> 00:11:43.909 of this MAGA media you talked about, and it shaped 00:11:43.909 --> 00:11:47.279 what you believed and repeated. And how important 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:50.179 is that MAGA media ecosystem that you lived inside 00:11:50.179 --> 00:11:53.480 and how powerful was that feedback loop? Was 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:57.259 there one kind of content, podcast, article, 00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:00.259 social media, influencers, television that especially 00:12:00.259 --> 00:12:03.360 was effective at keeping you in and nowadays 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:07.419 keeping others in? Yeah, there are many. In addition 00:12:07.419 --> 00:12:11.960 to the places I wrote for where I had penned 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:14.399 articles for Fox and The Federalist, American 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:18.450 Greatness. Very, very pro -MAGA, very right -wing 00:12:18.450 --> 00:12:22.009 media outlets. The site that I consumed the most 00:12:22.009 --> 00:12:25.750 of all was Breitbart. Interesting. I lived on 00:12:25.750 --> 00:12:28.649 that site, John. I would check that site dozens 00:12:28.649 --> 00:12:31.370 of times a day. I lived in the comments section. 00:12:31.690 --> 00:12:35.289 And it was never a website that I read or checked 00:12:35.289 --> 00:12:38.409 out before MAGA. I knew about it. Maybe occasionally 00:12:38.409 --> 00:12:40.309 I might have seen an article here and there. 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:45.019 But I was very, very much enmeshed in the MAGA 00:12:45.019 --> 00:12:49.419 media echo chamber. And the reason that it's 00:12:49.419 --> 00:12:52.899 important that that media be kept in front of 00:12:52.899 --> 00:12:55.919 people who are in MAGA with a steady diet of 00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:59.340 it is that when I was in the community, any information 00:12:59.340 --> 00:13:03.620 that even remotely refuted the pervasively held 00:13:03.620 --> 00:13:06.750 mythologies of the community. It was shunned. 00:13:06.750 --> 00:13:09.230 It was kept out. It was considered enemy media. 00:13:09.450 --> 00:13:12.429 You know, there's very much a belief in the liberal 00:13:12.429 --> 00:13:16.669 media conspiracy with legacy media. I even had 00:13:16.669 --> 00:13:20.009 trademarked a phrase when I was in MAGA called 00:13:20.009 --> 00:13:24.029 the Democrat Media Industrial Complex. That's 00:13:24.029 --> 00:13:26.990 how much I bought into the so -called liberal 00:13:26.990 --> 00:13:31.950 media conspiracy. And then leaving MAGA, I realized 00:13:31.950 --> 00:13:34.769 that. so much of what I considered to be the 00:13:34.769 --> 00:13:37.909 liberal media was just your standard fair legacy 00:13:37.909 --> 00:13:40.870 media. You know, your New York Times, your Washington 00:13:40.870 --> 00:13:45.450 Post, your NPR, your PBS, you know, outlets that 00:13:45.450 --> 00:13:51.789 were considered in a media to people in MAGA, 00:13:51.870 --> 00:13:55.909 but were just, I realized, just your standard 00:13:55.909 --> 00:13:59.700 fair media that maybe... Depending on the article 00:13:59.700 --> 00:14:01.860 or depending on the columnist might be a little 00:14:01.860 --> 00:14:04.759 bit left -leaning, but there was no conspiracy. 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:08.700 That's something that I had to painfully conclude 00:14:08.700 --> 00:14:11.059 and come to realize. Now that you're out and 00:14:11.059 --> 00:14:12.919 you look back and you say, now you go back and 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:16.340 look at Breitbart, do you think the people pushing 00:14:16.340 --> 00:14:20.460 the material on a site like that believe the 00:14:20.460 --> 00:14:22.820 stuff they're doing? Or do you think they are 00:14:22.820 --> 00:14:25.360 doing it for some other purposes, whether to 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:29.159 just make more money? Political purposes. What's 00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:31.360 your view now that you look back at that when 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:33.220 you look at those sites? You know, I struggle 00:14:33.220 --> 00:14:36.960 with that question because the reason I do is 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:41.779 I often wonder if the people pushing and propagating 00:14:41.779 --> 00:14:46.200 their content on the right wing, I often do wonder 00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:48.519 if they believe what it is that they're saying. 00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:53.029 You know, does a... Does a Tucker Carlson believe 00:14:53.029 --> 00:14:55.269 what he's saying? Does Breitbart believe what 00:14:55.269 --> 00:14:57.350 they're saying? Does a Candace Owens or a Nick 00:14:57.350 --> 00:15:00.049 Fuentes believe what they're saying? You know, 00:15:00.049 --> 00:15:02.870 do people at Turning Point believe what it is 00:15:02.870 --> 00:15:05.429 that they're saying? And I feel like it's really 00:15:05.429 --> 00:15:10.570 one of two answers, that they don't, but they've 00:15:10.570 --> 00:15:14.190 been able to capture so many people by keeping 00:15:14.190 --> 00:15:18.860 them aggrieved and afraid. They've told themselves 00:15:18.860 --> 00:15:22.679 a lie so much that they come to believe it. Even 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:25.139 with Donald Trump himself, I've often wondered, 00:15:25.259 --> 00:15:28.480 does he really believe a lot of what it is that 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:32.259 he says? I used to think that all the time and 00:15:32.259 --> 00:15:36.580 wonder aloud about the 2020 election. I used 00:15:36.580 --> 00:15:40.179 to think, does he really believe that the election 00:15:40.179 --> 00:15:43.600 was stolen? And there was a time that I was convinced 00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:47.139 he didn't believe it. Now I wonder if he does 00:15:47.139 --> 00:15:49.639 because he just told himself that lie over and 00:15:49.639 --> 00:15:54.220 over. And I think that MAGA media is designed 00:15:54.220 --> 00:15:59.500 to keep people mis - and disinformed. And I think 00:15:59.500 --> 00:16:03.000 that mis - and disinformation has reached a crisis 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:07.960 level within our country at a national level 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.779 of crisis proportions. And I think that it's 00:16:11.779 --> 00:16:15.720 at... That mis - and disinformation is at a point 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:19.179 right now where it's very obvious that those 00:16:19.179 --> 00:16:22.519 who are doing the dividing, it's very rewarding 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:25.440 and very lucrative for them. And there are incentives 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:29.059 to keep people polarized and divided and afraid 00:16:29.059 --> 00:16:33.759 with that media. Yeah, and with social media, 00:16:33.860 --> 00:16:37.379 it's easy to be nasty at people on social media, 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:39.620 whereas if you're out in the real world talking 00:16:39.620 --> 00:16:41.860 to people, you know, you... You're coming across 00:16:41.860 --> 00:16:43.320 people that are very nice people. You're dealing 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:45.539 with them every day. Then you can go back inside 00:16:45.539 --> 00:16:47.620 and you sit online and you start attacking maybe 00:16:47.620 --> 00:16:49.139 the same people that you met and were friendly 00:16:49.139 --> 00:16:52.039 with outside. It's almost like people get caught 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:54.720 up in this fake world of political entertainment. 00:16:55.399 --> 00:17:00.259 That's one of the deceptions of the right -wing 00:17:00.259 --> 00:17:03.700 media ecosystem. And I'm not trying to say that 00:17:03.700 --> 00:17:07.980 those who are in legacy media or left -leaning 00:17:07.980 --> 00:17:10.869 media don't. or don't contribute to this to some 00:17:10.869 --> 00:17:15.049 extent also. But what right -wing MAGA media 00:17:15.049 --> 00:17:19.569 doesn't tell its audience and viewers is that 00:17:19.569 --> 00:17:23.109 if a pro -MAGA and anti -MAGA person got together 00:17:23.109 --> 00:17:26.109 and had an actual conversation, they would realize 00:17:26.109 --> 00:17:28.390 that they actually agree more than they disagree. 00:17:28.930 --> 00:17:32.589 Now, there might be disagreements about the solutions 00:17:32.589 --> 00:17:35.289 for problems or how to get to certain outcomes. 00:17:37.099 --> 00:17:40.039 If you just tell your audience to be afraid of 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:44.079 Democrats and liberals and progressives and to 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:46.579 fear anti -Trump Republicans and conservatives, 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:49.019 then you're always going to think that there's 00:17:49.019 --> 00:17:54.460 some conspiracy against you. And it's so important 00:17:54.460 --> 00:18:03.799 that that worldview be sold by MAGA and right 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:07.000 -wing media. I know that for me... I allowed 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:11.319 myself to get duped into the fear of believing 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:15.859 that anyone against me must have posed an existential 00:18:15.859 --> 00:18:18.839 threat and it was crush your enemies or be crushed 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:23.160 by them. This was the kind of thinking that was 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:26.099 commonplace and is still prevalent throughout 00:18:26.099 --> 00:18:28.539 MAGA. I know because I've had conversations with 00:18:28.539 --> 00:18:30.960 people who are in MAGA. And I hear them talk 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:33.960 about Democrats with the KKK, you know, Demo, 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:39.319 Demo, KKK, Krat, and, you know, satanic worshiping 00:18:39.319 --> 00:18:41.839 pedophiles. And it's easy to do all of that online. 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:45.779 It's harder to say that about someone when they're 00:18:45.779 --> 00:18:49.440 face to face. And MAGA Media does not want people. 00:18:50.140 --> 00:18:52.880 who are in MAGA consuming that information to 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:55.319 know that there's actually more agreement than 00:18:55.319 --> 00:18:58.059 disagreement. You know, we want a safe and secure 00:18:58.059 --> 00:19:00.839 country. We want economic opportunity. We want 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:04.140 good schools for our children. But if you think 00:19:04.140 --> 00:19:09.500 that liberalism is the source of all of our personal 00:19:09.500 --> 00:19:12.400 and political ills, then naturally you're going 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:17.819 to feel like they are an enemy to us. Absolutely. 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:20.740 So when you started stepping away, what was the 00:19:20.740 --> 00:19:23.200 hardest thing to change? Was it the content, 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:26.539 the habits, the social circle? And did you replace 00:19:26.539 --> 00:19:29.619 it with anything? Like what is it as you moved 00:19:29.619 --> 00:19:33.400 out of it that made it successful for you to 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:36.019 do that? And when you left, why wasn't it enough 00:19:36.019 --> 00:19:38.079 just to leave privately? Why did you feel you 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:41.099 had to renounce it publicly? You know, and I 00:19:41.099 --> 00:19:43.799 just had a memoir that came out recently. It's 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:46.980 entitled One Betrayal Too Many, Why I Left MAGA. 00:19:47.099 --> 00:19:51.160 And the visual that I give in the memoir is a 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:55.240 wall of bricks. And I would take one brick out, 00:19:55.339 --> 00:19:57.680 you know, Trump's mismanagement of COVID. I would 00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:00.839 take another one out, the 2020 election lies. 00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:04.140 I would take out Ron DeSantis platforming anti 00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:06.759 -vaxxers. I would take out a brick of Uvalde. 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:09.690 And eventually you take enough out. And the wall 00:20:09.690 --> 00:20:15.369 just falls and collapses. I was always so unapologetically 00:20:15.369 --> 00:20:18.549 public in my support for Trump and MAGA as this 00:20:18.549 --> 00:20:23.250 activist and this nationalist patriotic soldier 00:20:23.250 --> 00:20:28.569 that when I came to the conclusion that MAGA 00:20:28.569 --> 00:20:32.250 no longer comported with my values, I just felt 00:20:32.250 --> 00:20:37.109 I needed to go public. And I didn't think that... 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:40.819 Anything would happen except just experiencing 00:20:40.819 --> 00:20:44.640 the catharsis of closing that chapter of my life 00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:48.579 and moving on. But after I went public, I realized 00:20:48.579 --> 00:20:51.259 that people did care. And I received one message 00:20:51.259 --> 00:20:56.259 after another from desperate friends and family 00:20:56.259 --> 00:20:59.920 who approached me and said, Rich, can you talk 00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:03.539 to my mother, my brother, my sister, my kids, 00:21:03.859 --> 00:21:07.509 my parents, my best friend? I was completely 00:21:07.509 --> 00:21:11.589 oblivious and naive to how many relationships 00:21:11.589 --> 00:21:15.630 had been torn asunder by this movement in communities, 00:21:15.849 --> 00:21:19.890 in families, friendships, places of worship. 00:21:20.190 --> 00:21:25.730 And I had to have my own reckoning of realizing 00:21:25.730 --> 00:21:29.450 that I was complicit in helping the president 00:21:29.450 --> 00:21:32.269 divide the country and I was culpable in amplifying 00:21:32.269 --> 00:21:35.529 conspiracy theories. I like to paraphrase the 00:21:35.529 --> 00:21:37.750 late, venerable Ernest Hemingway in saying that 00:21:37.750 --> 00:21:41.029 my epiphany happened gradually and then suddenly 00:21:41.029 --> 00:21:45.450 all at once. And there was this long, it was 00:21:45.450 --> 00:21:48.569 a year -long road to Damascus moment where, like 00:21:48.569 --> 00:21:51.910 Saul in the Bible, the scales fell from the eyes 00:21:51.910 --> 00:21:55.430 because I realized that I could no longer believe 00:21:55.430 --> 00:21:58.750 the lies that I had come to believe, and that 00:21:58.750 --> 00:22:03.319 upon scrutiny, As much as I may have ignored 00:22:03.319 --> 00:22:07.299 facts when I was in MAGA, once I started having 00:22:07.299 --> 00:22:10.000 my doubts, my confusion and questioning my beliefs, 00:22:10.019 --> 00:22:12.859 I can no longer ignore that I had been lied to 00:22:12.859 --> 00:22:15.180 and that I had allowed myself to believe those 00:22:15.180 --> 00:22:19.079 lies. A little bit about Donald Trump, because 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:21.839 obviously, in many ways, he's the key here. And 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:23.740 there's two things. Like one is, you know, for 00:22:23.740 --> 00:22:26.980 outsiders to look at him, I don't see him as 00:22:26.980 --> 00:22:29.339 this, you know, you can imagine, right? Different 00:22:29.339 --> 00:22:32.049 people look at it a different way. What is your 00:22:32.049 --> 00:22:35.589 take on Donald Trump and his role here? And I 00:22:35.589 --> 00:22:38.009 think you've said in other interviews that you 00:22:38.009 --> 00:22:41.589 think MAGA may unravel once he leaves. Tell us 00:22:41.589 --> 00:22:44.049 a little bit about Trump and why you believe 00:22:44.049 --> 00:22:46.829 that. You know, I think that what explains the 00:22:46.829 --> 00:22:50.630 fealty to Trump himself amongst those in MAGA 00:22:50.630 --> 00:22:54.569 is that Trump took right -wing politics, which 00:22:54.569 --> 00:22:57.930 have existed for generations, and created a brand 00:22:57.930 --> 00:23:00.849 and a community around it. You know, where people 00:23:00.849 --> 00:23:03.809 go to the rallies and they go to events like 00:23:03.809 --> 00:23:07.569 I used to. I used to be a donor and I used to 00:23:07.569 --> 00:23:10.089 be a sponsor of a local well -known Trump group 00:23:10.089 --> 00:23:13.150 when it was in existence. And there was a shared 00:23:13.150 --> 00:23:16.309 purpose and there was a shared enemy. And Trump 00:23:16.309 --> 00:23:20.690 created this feeling of belonging where people 00:23:20.690 --> 00:23:23.589 who felt unseen and unheard were finally recognized 00:23:23.589 --> 00:23:28.190 and appreciated. Because he's the titular leader 00:23:28.190 --> 00:23:30.589 of that community, that explains the devotion 00:23:30.589 --> 00:23:33.670 to Trump himself. But when he's off the political 00:23:33.670 --> 00:23:37.630 scene, I don't think that MAGA will go away, 00:23:37.730 --> 00:23:40.230 but I do think that it will slowly unravel because 00:23:40.230 --> 00:23:46.430 you can't replace the originator of the community. 00:23:46.930 --> 00:23:49.890 And there's a lot of talk in our political discourse 00:23:49.890 --> 00:23:52.430 about whether it's J .D. Vance or whether it's 00:23:52.430 --> 00:23:55.150 Marco Rubio or is it... someone else who might 00:23:55.150 --> 00:23:57.250 be able to supplant the president as the leader. 00:23:57.549 --> 00:23:59.890 But I don't think anyone's going to be able to. 00:23:59.950 --> 00:24:03.349 And if it does, in fact, unravel even slowly, 00:24:03.549 --> 00:24:06.710 then the fact is, John, that's really good news 00:24:06.710 --> 00:24:08.809 for us because it means that there are going 00:24:08.809 --> 00:24:11.890 to be millions of people at a crossroads. And 00:24:11.890 --> 00:24:15.849 we have to catch people before they are inculcated 00:24:15.849 --> 00:24:19.230 into whatever comes after MAGA, whether it's 00:24:19.230 --> 00:24:23.579 America First or whether it's... this tech bros 00:24:23.579 --> 00:24:28.720 technocracy that we see that's been, I think 00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:31.660 it was under the radar for a long time. And then 00:24:31.660 --> 00:24:34.359 in the last year or so has become more, it's 00:24:34.359 --> 00:24:36.519 more at the forefront and more publicly visible. 00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:41.720 So I think that when Trump is off the political 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:44.720 scene, we are going to see a lot of people who 00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:47.460 are not sure what they're going to do politically. 00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:49.599 And that's a chance for us to catch them and 00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:52.420 give them an exit ramp. and an off -ramp and 00:24:52.420 --> 00:24:55.240 a new destination, which is what I am and our 00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:57.960 team is working to create Leaving MAGA as, as 00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:01.200 that new destination and that new community for 00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:04.200 them. Political parties in many ways used to 00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:06.859 be sort of, you know, somewhat ideologically 00:25:06.859 --> 00:25:10.319 driven or policy driven. And what MAGA has done 00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:12.299 and what Trump has done is destroyed the Republican 00:25:12.299 --> 00:25:15.079 Party that had this sort of coalescence of policies. 00:25:16.120 --> 00:25:18.460 The policies of Meg are all over the place. Some 00:25:18.460 --> 00:25:20.279 of them might have been radical left. Some of 00:25:20.279 --> 00:25:21.539 them might have been radical right. Some of them 00:25:21.539 --> 00:25:23.799 just are different. So it's going to be interesting 00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:28.099 to see how that coalition comes together. And 00:25:28.099 --> 00:25:30.940 if it's just one coalition or more than one for 00:25:30.940 --> 00:25:32.319 a two -party system, it's going to be interesting 00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:35.259 to see. But let me talk a little bit about, again, 00:25:35.299 --> 00:25:39.039 coming out and family and how loved ones should 00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:42.420 deal with this. I mean, what mistakes do you 00:25:42.420 --> 00:25:45.049 think that family members make when... to try 00:25:45.049 --> 00:25:47.029 to reach someone that's still deep in the movement. 00:25:47.029 --> 00:25:50.829 What is the way that people who have MAGA, people 00:25:50.829 --> 00:25:53.690 in their family, what's the best way for them 00:25:53.690 --> 00:25:56.950 to deal with them and help them come out of MAGA? 00:25:56.950 --> 00:25:58.230 This is what you're doing with the organization, 00:25:58.450 --> 00:26:00.910 obviously. I just wanted to make a point when 00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:02.730 you mentioned about the Republican Party. It 00:26:02.730 --> 00:26:07.309 was a fantasy of ours when I was in MAGA to kill 00:26:07.309 --> 00:26:11.230 off the GOP and make it into a MAGA party. Right. 00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:14.480 So that has very clearly been achieved and accomplished. 00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:19.380 You know, this is a really difficult and tough 00:26:19.380 --> 00:26:22.240 spot for friends and family to be in right now 00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:24.559 because they're looking at their loved ones whom 00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:27.440 they still love, they still care about, their 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:29.619 friends, their family, those who are close to 00:26:29.619 --> 00:26:36.099 them. And there's a temptation to want to write 00:26:36.099 --> 00:26:41.049 them off as being hopeless or too far gone. But 00:26:41.049 --> 00:26:43.549 I think that my story and some of the stories 00:26:43.549 --> 00:26:46.009 that people can read at our website at leavingmaga 00:26:46.009 --> 00:26:49.289 .org, other testimonials, we are living proof 00:26:49.289 --> 00:26:53.150 that people can change. And what I would encourage 00:26:53.150 --> 00:26:55.529 friends and family to do is something that they've 00:26:55.529 --> 00:26:58.269 already been doing, and I know it's a big ask, 00:26:58.390 --> 00:27:01.490 but to continue to do it, which is just to remain 00:27:01.490 --> 00:27:04.809 patient. Because I do believe that most people 00:27:04.809 --> 00:27:09.710 in MAGA have a red line. Yes, there are some 00:27:09.710 --> 00:27:13.130 who will support Trump and MAGA no matter what. 00:27:13.430 --> 00:27:16.329 But I think that most people who are in MAGA 00:27:16.329 --> 00:27:19.329 have a line of demarcation. And I actually think 00:27:19.329 --> 00:27:22.369 that there are many, if not most, in MAGA who 00:27:22.369 --> 00:27:26.490 are looking around the country and they see, 00:27:26.670 --> 00:27:29.890 they're looking and they know that something 00:27:29.890 --> 00:27:33.190 is amiss in the nation. You know, whether it's 00:27:33.190 --> 00:27:37.529 about... The Iran war or whether it's about defying 00:27:37.529 --> 00:27:39.930 court orders or whether it's the tariffs or the 00:27:39.930 --> 00:27:42.430 gutting of the federal government, the way that 00:27:42.430 --> 00:27:45.869 ICE has operated. I think there's this burgeoning 00:27:45.869 --> 00:27:48.269 cognitive dissonance amongst many in MAGA where 00:27:48.269 --> 00:27:51.450 they have these these these cemented beliefs, 00:27:51.750 --> 00:27:54.549 but their eyes are telling them that there's 00:27:54.549 --> 00:27:57.029 something wrong. And I would really encourage 00:27:57.029 --> 00:28:00.730 friends and family to not give up on their close 00:28:00.730 --> 00:28:05.839 ones. When I left MAGA. I went to my longtime 00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:10.960 friends whom I had lost touch with because I 00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:13.259 had a second MAGA family and also because some 00:28:13.259 --> 00:28:15.119 of my longtime friends, I knew that they were 00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:18.299 blue Democratic voters. And I went to them and 00:28:18.299 --> 00:28:22.220 I said, look, if you don't accept my apology, 00:28:22.339 --> 00:28:26.200 I will understand. But I would like to apologize 00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:29.359 for categorizing you into this group of being 00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:32.569 an existential threat. And the fact is, John, 00:28:32.670 --> 00:28:36.009 every one of them accepted my apology. And one 00:28:36.009 --> 00:28:39.910 who was a mentor of mine and still is, he even 00:28:39.910 --> 00:28:42.210 said to me, Rich, I always knew that you'd come 00:28:42.210 --> 00:28:46.730 back. And I talk about that in my memoir about 00:28:46.730 --> 00:28:49.670 going back to my friends. Even to this day, I 00:28:49.670 --> 00:28:51.750 get emotional thinking about it because if they 00:28:51.750 --> 00:28:55.009 gave up on me, I would not be here talking to 00:28:55.009 --> 00:28:58.710 you right now. There's a good chance that Trump 00:28:58.710 --> 00:29:02.700 had won the election in 2020. I may never have 00:29:02.700 --> 00:29:06.039 left MAGA, you know, never say never, but there's 00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:08.480 a better than not chance that if Trump wins in 00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:14.000 20, that I probably don't leave MAGA. So I think 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:16.700 for friends and family out there, you know, it's 00:29:16.700 --> 00:29:21.819 really important to remember that facts and policy 00:29:21.819 --> 00:29:24.539 don't move people. People don't make decisions 00:29:24.539 --> 00:29:29.099 that way. We make decisions on emotions and perceptions 00:29:29.099 --> 00:29:34.400 and feelings. And for all the mythology of rugged 00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:38.319 individualism within MAGA, the fact is that MAGA 00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:42.980 is as emotional a group as any and is also a 00:29:42.980 --> 00:29:45.480 highly conformist group. I mentioned earlier 00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:49.299 about information silos. I don't think MAGA is 00:29:49.299 --> 00:29:52.500 the only information siloed group, but I do think 00:29:52.500 --> 00:29:55.099 it is the most info siloed group in the country. 00:29:55.849 --> 00:30:00.349 And I know that, and I can attest to that, having 00:30:00.349 --> 00:30:04.670 been someone who only consumed MAGA media. So 00:30:04.670 --> 00:30:08.170 for friends and family out there, I'd also encourage 00:30:08.170 --> 00:30:10.029 them, John, to check out our website and our 00:30:10.029 --> 00:30:13.849 support group page and think about attending 00:30:13.849 --> 00:30:16.650 our groups because we focus a lot on self -care. 00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:21.920 We message that we want people, we want to relieve 00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:24.400 people of the pressures of feeling like they 00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:27.099 can change their loved ones because we can't 00:30:27.099 --> 00:30:30.559 change another person. All we can do is wait 00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:33.079 for them to change on their own because the change 00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:36.579 has to come from the individual. Well, you've 00:30:36.579 --> 00:30:37.819 been generous with your time and I don't want 00:30:37.819 --> 00:30:40.180 to keep you too long, but just one question about 00:30:40.180 --> 00:30:43.119 the organization, about how you set it up. You've 00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:45.480 been doing it now for a little while. What are 00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:47.160 you learning? What works? What doesn't work? 00:30:47.299 --> 00:30:50.160 Tell us a little bit about this new step in your 00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:52.259 life, the organization. Yeah, you know, this 00:30:52.259 --> 00:30:57.299 is our third year. My first year, I didn't know 00:30:57.299 --> 00:30:59.279 what the hell I was doing. My second year, I 00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:00.920 started to get a little bit of my footing. And 00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:03.180 right now, with it being in our third year, I 00:31:03.180 --> 00:31:06.420 am happy to report that we have never been busier. 00:31:08.109 --> 00:31:11.130 Our media appearances, my memoir, our fundraising, 00:31:11.569 --> 00:31:15.029 our testimonials, we are meeting now couples 00:31:15.029 --> 00:31:18.930 who were MAGA together who left for a variety 00:31:18.930 --> 00:31:22.130 of different reasons. So we have never been more 00:31:22.130 --> 00:31:28.049 active. And what I am learning is that it is 00:31:28.049 --> 00:31:32.210 not a sign of weakness for us to change our minds. 00:31:32.329 --> 00:31:35.589 We are working to change the stigma societally 00:31:35.589 --> 00:31:38.670 and culturally. that changing your mind is a 00:31:38.670 --> 00:31:40.809 weakness. It's not. It's a sign of strength. 00:31:40.869 --> 00:31:43.509 It's a sign of evolution. It's a show of maturation. 00:31:44.250 --> 00:31:49.670 And I'm also learning that people are forgiving 00:31:49.670 --> 00:31:53.509 people. Most people I meet who are anti -Trump 00:31:53.509 --> 00:31:57.150 and anti -MAGA people have welcomed us, and they've 00:31:57.150 --> 00:31:59.849 welcomed the others who have left. And yes, like 00:31:59.849 --> 00:32:02.210 we were saying before about the online crowd, 00:32:03.069 --> 00:32:05.490 Sometimes I get mean comments from those on the 00:32:05.490 --> 00:32:07.630 left, and I often get mean comments from those 00:32:07.630 --> 00:32:10.269 who are in MAGA. But I don't think that the online 00:32:10.269 --> 00:32:13.509 world is representative of people as a whole. 00:32:13.970 --> 00:32:18.450 But we want to encourage people out there to 00:32:18.450 --> 00:32:23.630 remember that it is possible for us to make a 00:32:23.630 --> 00:32:27.549 change. And even though apologizing is not a 00:32:27.549 --> 00:32:31.349 natural act for us, especially publicly, Apology 00:32:31.349 --> 00:32:35.950 is how we make amends. And for us, we don't have 00:32:35.950 --> 00:32:39.190 any ideological purity test. But the only non 00:32:39.190 --> 00:32:41.690 -negotiable mandate that leaving MAGA has is 00:32:41.690 --> 00:32:44.529 someone has to take accountability for their 00:32:44.529 --> 00:32:46.809 past words, deeds, and rhetoric. Because without 00:32:46.809 --> 00:32:52.450 leaving or without apologizing, you can't really 00:32:52.450 --> 00:32:55.410 leave. And when I left, I became what I like 00:32:55.410 --> 00:32:58.880 to call a born -again human being. And walked 00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:03.539 away from an identity that was shaped on lies 00:33:03.539 --> 00:33:07.200 and extremism and became a person who no longer 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:11.440 dehumanizes those with whom I disagree. Thank 00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:14.059 you so much. You've been gracious with your time. 00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:17.359 I really respect what you're doing. And I both 00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:19.799 know how hard it is, but also how important it 00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:22.740 is. So before we leave, can you tell people how 00:33:22.740 --> 00:33:25.819 to find you and about your book and your website? 00:33:26.970 --> 00:33:29.950 organization and social media areas? Sure, thank 00:33:29.950 --> 00:33:33.970 you. Anyone who wants to contact us, follow our 00:33:33.970 --> 00:33:37.289 socials, learn more information about our support 00:33:37.289 --> 00:33:39.789 group and our memoir, you can visit us at leavingmaga 00:33:39.789 --> 00:33:43.890 .org. We also have an entire page of testimonials 00:33:43.890 --> 00:33:47.289 of people who left. I think that those who read 00:33:47.289 --> 00:33:50.670 those stories will find them to be quite inspirational. 00:33:50.829 --> 00:33:53.690 We have a diverse assortment of people who left. 00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:56.559 So feel free to drop us a question or a comment 00:33:56.559 --> 00:33:59.400 at leavingmaga .org. We look forward to always 00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:01.519 hearing. And yes, we actually do check all of 00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:05.099 our messages. Well, I will try to find your book. 00:34:05.180 --> 00:34:08.079 Is it for sale, the book? It is. And people can 00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:11.340 order a copy right from our memoir page on our 00:34:11.340 --> 00:34:14.460 website. Oh, outstanding. Okay. Well, again, 00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:18.159 Rich, so inspiring. So important. I know it's 00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:20.079 not easy. I'm sure you get attacked from some 00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:22.280 people who are still inside, but you're doing 00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:24.460 really, really important work. So thank you so 00:34:24.460 --> 00:34:27.179 much. So for our listeners, if you like what 00:34:27.179 --> 00:34:29.079 you're hearing, please subscribe to the Steady 00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:31.599 State Sentinel and follow Steady State content 00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:33.940 and give us a five -star review if you would 00:34:33.940 --> 00:34:36.539 on Google. The reviews really help get this important 00:34:36.539 --> 00:34:39.219 content to the widest audience possible. So stay 00:34:39.219 --> 00:34:42.480 informed and stay engaged and join us next week 00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:44.320 for another episode of the Steady State Sentinel. 00:34:44.730 --> 00:34:50.469 This is John Cypress, Standing Watch. Thank you 00:34:50.469 --> 00:34:53.010 for listening to the SteadyState Sentinel podcast. 00:34:53.769 --> 00:34:57.050 Don't miss out on more insights and exposes from 00:34:57.050 --> 00:35:00.690 America's premier global security experts. Also, 00:35:00.730 --> 00:35:04.530 subscribe to our Substack at substack .com slash 00:35:04.530 --> 00:35:08.690 at SteadyState1 and follow our social media and 00:35:08.690 --> 00:35:10.809 join us right here next week for another exciting 00:35:10.809 --> 00:35:14.760 edition. The Steady State is a nonprofit organization 00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:17.760 working to sustain our democracy and national 00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:21.539 security. Join us and support our mission by 00:35:21.539 --> 00:35:24.780 visiting www .thesteadysate .org.