The Steady State Sentinel is produced by the
Steady State, a community of former national
security professionals who spent their careers
safeguarding the United States at home and abroad.
Today, we continue that mission by staying true
to our oaths to defend the Constitution, uphold
our democracy, and protect our nation's security.
Join our expert hosts as they interview field
-tested guests whose unique experiences shed
light on the crises and challenges facing our
nation. Welcome to the Steady State Sentinel.
I'm Lauren Anderson. Over the past few years,
many Americans have started asking whether they
can still trust the FBI. That's not a partisan
question. It's a democratic one. The FBI is one
of the most powerful institutions in our nation
and one of the least understood. What keeps it
disciplined and apolitical is its adherence to
process, evidence, and the rule of law. Tonight,
I'm joined by three guests. All of us spent decades
inside the FBI. We've seen it at its best, and
we've seen moments that gave each of us pause.
This is a conversation among professionals who
understand the Bureau from the inside and who
believe its credibility rests on discipline,
restraint, and staying out of politics. So with
that, I want to get started so you have the opportunity
to hear from each of my colleagues. And Mark,
would you please introduce yourself and start
us off? Yeah, thank you, Lauren. Mark Ferber
-Shea. I joined the FBI in 1983 at the age of
26. Came into the Bureau's accounting program,
and for my early years, I worked complex financial
crimes. And then later on, I transitioned over
to the national security side of the house, where
I oversaw counterterrorism investigations. And
then I even did a stint at the CIA's Counterterrorism
Center. just before retiring from the Bureau.
And then after 28 years in the FBI, or nearly
28 years, I retired, and then I joined the Department
of Energy's Office of Intelligence and Counterintelligence
to help thwart foreign efforts at targeting DOE's
labs and national security equities there. That's
great. And so now we know you left because you
retired out of the Bureau, but what brought you
into the FBI? That's a good question. I thought
about that when we last spoke, and I never had
a driving urge to get in the FBI until I graduated
from college the first time. My brother -in -law
had just been laid off as a teacher, and he looked
into the FBI as a potential alternative. He didn't
pursue it, but he said I should, and I thought,
what the heck? I had a BA in political science
back in about 1980. So I walked into the FBI
field office in Seattle and said, what does it
take to get a job as a special agent? I was ushered
inside, talked to a recruiter. Oh, he was fantastic.
I was hooked. He told me the greatest war stories
about chasing fugitives in Chicago and doing
surveillances on foot and in vehicles and doing
interviews. That was it. But I had at that time,
I wasn't qualified. I had to either go back to
get a law degree or get another BA in business
with a concentration in accounting. Well, that
was the short route and I took that. So that's
kind of how I wound up getting into the FBI.
Kind of just fell into it. But boy, I'll tell
you, it was the right job. It was really, I just
had a ball and I miss it tremendously. I think
we all do. Hey, Nikki, how about you? So I started
my career actually more broadly in the U .S.
intelligence community in 2003. I started as
an intern with the Defense Intelligence Agency
working as an intelligence analyst, which happened
right after I had partially completed a Ph .D.
program. And that quickly transitioned into a
full -time role with the Defense Intelligence
Agency. From there, I transitioned into the FBI
at FBI headquarters, actually LX1, to work in
the counterterrorism division in the counterterrorism
analytics section. I then moved on to FBI, well,
actually did a... what's called a joint duty
assignment with the Office of the Director of
National Intelligence in a mission management
office before I eventually made it to FBI Boston
because Massachusetts was home. So I finally
made it back and then worked a variety of roles
in FBI Boston. I supervised analysts that were
embedded in the crime squads. I eventually became
one of the first SSIAs, a supervisory senior
intelligence analyst, where I was building out
a regional intelligence group. And then my last
duty with the Bureau was in the Worcester Resident
Agency, which made my commute lovely. And I had
a great time working cases again and supporting
agents in that capacity in the Worcester RA.
I left in 2022 to... make my way in the private
sector. I built an intelligence program at a
pharmaceutical company, and I've since moved
on to intelligence and security consulting. Like
Mark, I did not even think I would ever work
for the FBI at any point in my early years as
an undergrad or even early in grad school. I
had to find my way there kind of the hard way.
I did a bunch of internships, which I advocate
for with students all the time, tested some things
out to see what stuck, knew that I was civic
minded, wanted to do something that gave back
and had a mission, which led me to Defense Intelligence
Agency. And I absolutely loved it. It was the
aha moment where I was like, this is the career
I've been looking for. Intelligence analysis
is what I was meant to do. And I continue to
have a passion for intelligence analysis even
now in the private sector. I really just love
the work that I'm doing. And I, too, miss my
time with the Bureau and working some really
interesting cases. It's much different in the
private sector. Nikki, what caused you to leave
the Bureau? It was a combination of variables
I had spent. So when I got to the Bureau in 2005,
it was really at the beginning of the intelligence
analyst journey with the FBI. It was after the
9 -11 Commission reports came out and really
the creation of intelligence analysis at the
FBI. I saw a lot of growth and progression coming
from another agency. I knew what the career path
should look like. I knew what the product should
look like. There was a lot of, you know, a lot
of growth and development there, but at some
point it had stagnated. And I really felt the
burden of that and felt really frustrated by
the lack of growth and development for intelligence
analysts in the Bureau. And the environment that
I was in at the time, things were just different
in the post -COVID world. And some of the new
analysts coming out of Quantico, weren't as well
trained as I would have hoped they had been.
There were a lot of challenges there that led
to my frustration with intelligence as a whole.
And so when I looked around, I just decided it
was time. It was time for me to move on to something
else. I had done what I could there, and it was
time to let the next generation try and take
it to the next level. Vicki? May, how about you?
What's your story? Thanks. Thanks for the invite,
Lauren. I really appreciate it. As you know,
just like Mark and Nikki, I had no intentions
of joining the Bureau. That wasn't my lifelong
dream or anything. So after 9 -11, I... felt
that I needed to do something, kind of give back
to the country that just I call home now and
just had this sense of responsibility that I
needed to be part of the solution. So I actually
applied right after 9 -11. It took Bureau three
years to get back to me. They called me. I had
applied to all three letters agencies. And then
when Bureau called, I was working as a financial
analyst. So I worked part time as a linguist
for the Bureau. And then while I was working
with other agents, they encouraged me to go to
Quantico and become an agent. And that's what
I did. And I came back to New York as a counterterrorism
agent. You were my ISAC at that time. So you
have known me my entire career. And after several
relocations and different leadership roles, I
concluded my journey with the Bureau in Salt
Lake City office as a special agent in charge.
And what was behind your departure? I wasn't
planning to retire just yet, but right a week
before I was eligible to retire, I was asked
to leave Salt Lake City. My options were either
to retire or go to Huntsville as a section chief.
And I decided that I'm going to retire because
I love... what I was doing. And it's always about
the needs of the Bureau. So when somebody is
asking you to step down from your position, it
was time to leave. And I have amazing memories.
And I just, I can, every time I think about it,
I just feel really gratitude. And I feel so humbled
that I had the opportunity to serve. May, and
for those of our listeners who might not know,
when May says she was asked about going to Huntsville,
essentially she was offered a demotion that would
have put her two steps backwards based on all
of the roles she had had up to that point in
leading field offices. So that was a very significant
moment, and May is understating it, but I don't
want to understate it. It was not a good decision.
So to move on from there, let's get to our conversation.
I know that we've all talked and we've all talked
about the fact that we know things started shifting.
Some people think it started shifting with Director
Comey's choice to publicly talk about an investigation,
others earlier. So I don't want to get into lengthy
answers, but if you can say for each one of you,
doesn't matter which order you go, what moment
stood out? um for you was there a single event
or did you see a gradual shift over time um and
if we can just go with that then we'll move into
more core conversation after that so for me uh
as a as a case agent i think the one thing that
i really really loved about being in the bureau
is that we we did our job and nobody ever told
us what needed to be done based on politics or
anything like that And we took the cases, we
opened cases, and we followed the evidence. I
think I started seeing the change in 2020. I
think it was during the BLM movement. And what
happened was there were police vehicles that
were burned by the crowd. And we opened the case
and we were working with the U .S. Attorney's
Office and we were having a hard time getting
subpoenas and warrants. And that was the moment
for me looking at this event saying, what happened?
Why can't we get our warrants and subpoenas?
But a crime was committed and we are trying to
investigate. So I think. I saw the change, a
little bit politics seeping into the Bureau and
our investigations in 2020. Let me ask you this.
What does this look like for all three of you?
And I know you've each had different inflection
points in your careers, but... When the rules
start changing, the processes start changing,
and it feels like politics is coming into play
in an institution that we all know is to be apolitical.
What does that mean for the people who are doing
the work on the ground? How does that affect
decisions? What does that look like? I think,
you know, just to kind of follow in here, it's
extremely frustrating. To a person, everyone
in the FBI is trying to work towards a common
mission. They're dedicated to upholding the Constitution,
the rule of law. These things are uniquely important.
We all take an oath to the Constitution when
we start our job. And when politics starts to
creep into that, it hinders everyone's ability
to do their work, either because to May's point,
they can't get the legal process they need to
proceed with the investigation, or they're faced
with questions or challenges to why an investigation
was open in the first place in instances where
that wouldn't normally happen. And I think for
each of us, It becomes, you know, sort of that,
again, like an inflection point of what's happening
here. Why is this harder than it should be? Because
quite frankly, to work an investigation, whether
you're an agent or an analyst supporting that
investigation, it's incredibly hard to work an
investigation and meet all of the legal standards.
And everyone takes such pride in that work to
get it to U .S. Attorney's Office. to really
get them on board with continuing the process
of the investigation, that when you can't even
get those little steps along the way completed,
it's just incredibly frustrating. What do you
think? Yeah, so... When I joined long ago, I
noticed a slight culture change that I mentioned
before about how the newer agents coming in 20,
25 years younger than me were not as committed
to the Bureau. It was more kind of like a credential
that they could use as a resume builder. And
so it wasn't institutional. It wasn't politicization,
but it was a change. And I assumed that was maybe.
maybe a different way of recruiting, who they
were targeting for recruitment. But the big tipping
point came when Comey had his outburst on July
of 2016. I have to imagine, now I've been out
since 2011, but imagine what the working folks,
the workforce, let's call them the rank and file,
that must have been tremendously confusing for
them. Because we got recruited and trained rigorously
in Quantico about our authorities, procedures,
rules, customs, and he blew them out of the water.
So how does it affect people in the field? It
makes me think they must be thinking like, well,
what do I do now? I'm shooting at a moving target.
Do these rules apply to me or do they only apply,
you know? to executives when they decide they
want to enforce them or decide to follow them.
So I find it really deteriorates the continuity
of the whole agency because people start wondering,
how do I make my decisions? Do I continue to
follow the rules? Or if I do something that upsets
somebody, then maybe my career is on the line.
That's a frightening place. to be. As we all
know, I can't even imagine how people are dealing
with it today. And I appreciate you being so
candid about that, both Mark and Nikki. And May,
I know you talked a little bit about where you
saw some differences on the January 6th investigations.
Could you touch on that briefly and how that
made you and the folks that you worked with feel?
Yes. So I think the January 6th cases, I felt
that the office was kind of divided when that
started to happen. To me, I think there were
some righteous cases, but I think some were just,
we went a little too far. And I think that created
a little bit unrest within the Bureau, within
agents, where agents felt uncomfortable opening
cases. And that's where this unrest started in
the Bureau. I had never seen anything like that
before. We work cases, as you know, in the CT
world. opened a case and everybody was jumping
on it. Everybody was, they wouldn't even go home
because they wanted to work those cases. But
I think January 6th cases were very divisive
for the field offices. Some people were really
for those cases. Some were just, they thought
that we are infringing on First Amendment rights
of people at that time. I think we all agree
that there's nothing good about that, because
one thing the Bureau has done well, and I'll
use this as a migration to the next question
I have for you, is that that's what we've stuck
with. As an institution, the Bureau has made
mistakes before, unquestionably. But we've also
been able to right the ship and get it where
it belongs. And as we all know, the legal standard
of the least intrusive means of investigating
somebody and being very, very cautious about.
First Amendment rights and not going down that
road of violating that. And that may is exactly
what you're talking about, as you saw on J6.
And I think that's some of what we're seeing
right now. So in that vein, though, looking at
the positive side, I would love it if each of
you could give. an example from your own career
or else something that stands out to you when
the Bureau really got it right, when they nailed
it, everything was done by the book, and you're
super proud of what the end result was. So maybe
if each of you could share an example about that,
it would be terrific. I'll go. Thanks, Mark.
I think in my memory, what I think was a wonderfully
done case by the Bureau that was very successful
was the Oklahoma City bombing. Because this is
a lot many years ago, 1995. But what the agents
did was incredible. The next day, they went through
the rubble. And this is an exploded federal building.
And I got the VIN number off an axle of a Ryder
truck that McVeigh used to drive the bomb over
there to Oklahoma City. The next day, they went
out to where he rented the truck. The employees
there cooperated with the FBI and they did a
composite sketch of McVeigh. And then they did
the neighborhood. They canvassed the area with
that sketch. And they finally identified. Someone
said, yeah, that's McVeigh. And then they learned
and they ran his name, I think in Stegis, and
found out, well, lo and behold, he's in jail.
He was arrested about 90 minutes after the explosion.
And he was sitting in an Oklahoma City jail because
he got pulled over by a trooper. And for lack
of license plate and carrying a concealed weapon.
And the rest is history after that. They got
forensic material off his clothes, evidence of
bomb materials and all that. And no press conferences
about how great we're doing. Obviously, there
was no social media, but everybody just was an
all out law enforcement effort by the book. No
public information released except what was already
out there. It was done by the book and it was
done, you know, according to policy and procedure.
And it was a successful prosecution. And they
identified he had two other accomplices that
were identified along the way. So, I mean, and
there's other ones. They got Aldrich Ames. They've
got the Unabomber. They got some of these, you
know, those were Aldrich Ames was a counterintellect,
an espionage case. This guy was a CIA case officer.
who was committing espionage. I mean, imagine
how difficult that is. And then we had Hansen,
one of our own people in the building. These
are incredibly complicated and tough, and we're
navigating the fact of an insider, either CIA
or FBI, but also following the rules and making
sure that at the end of the day, we've got a
solid case that's prosecutable. That's my those
are my examples of successes that the FBI has
had. And they're great ones, because I will point
out, having overseen espionage matters for quite
a few years, that they are without question the
most difficult cases to investigate, because
by virtue of what that person's doing, they're
hiding everything. They're not talking to anybody.
We can't understate the complexity that goes
around an espionage investigation, particularly
when you're talking about an insider. It's devastating,
and it's also a miracle at the same time that
we're able to bring those cases to fruition and
successfully prosecute them. Thanks for mentioning
that. I'm sorry, Mark, go ahead. No, I was just
going to say, and I think those are, people don't
remember those. Those have been a while, but
it's important that. to put all these things
about how we're critical of the Bureau and how
the Bureau is changing in maybe not such a good
way, to remember some of the things that they've
done that are remarkable, like these cases. You
know, pent bombs, another one. But I think the
FBI was the premier law enforcement agency in
the world. you know, domestically, and we had
international partnerships that were extremely
valuable because of our expertise. So I think
it's important to remember those and hopefully
maybe, you know, leverage those to get back to
that type of productivity and that type of success.
Thanks. I appreciate that, Mark. Nikki, May,
do either of you have anything you'd like to
add? I will go first, Lauren. I think I... Couldn't
agree with Mark. Those were great examples. But
also just to remind people that we don't do just
cases inside the U .S. We also do overseas cases.
I remember when I was overseas in Jordan, we
worked just day in, day out. working mostly counterterrorism
matters. But we also work with the embassy on
all these other different cases. I remember,
even though I worked CT cases, this is, I feel
like, the highlight for me as a mother of my
career, because we had this one individual who
was a Jordanian American citizen, and he... kidnapped
his two kids and brought them to Jordan. And
he told his ex -wife that if she ever wants to
see the kids, she has to come and live in Jordan.
And I got a phone call from the case agent. She
was in the U .S. and she asked me, she's like,
what can we do? This guy kidnapped the kids.
And I know we work. parental kidnapping cases
and the bureau however different rules of these
different countries you know we have to follow
and respect those so in jordan if you're a jordanian
citizen they gave the authority to the father
to have the kids and there was no way around
it And I work with all the different agencies,
even the Sharia law, just trying to figure out
if there is any way we can bring those kids back
to the U .S. And I was told that there is no
way those kids can ever come back because those
parental kidnappings happens and it's the father's
right. Not to get into too many details, but
we were able to bring those kids back to the
U .S. I think I kind of didn't tell my league
yet what I was doing because I figured if somebody
is going to get kicked out of the country, it
should be me and one should stay back because
it might have created an international incident
because we actually... created this whole plot
and then the mother came and picked up the kids
from school and came to the U .S. Embassy and
we actually made sure that we had the tickets
ready and we worked with the Jordanian airline
and sent them back home. And I was actually recently
talking to the case agents and she told me that
the mother, she thanked us. Almost, you know,
she called this case agent all the time and just
tell her, I think that thanks for the Bureau
for giving her kids back. So being a mom, I think
I really felt really, you know, it just, it made
me cry. I usually am not a crying type, but it
was just very emotional to see those kids with
the mother crying. Because the father wasn't
the father of the year, he was ready to, he was
talking about marrying her, marrying the daughter
once she become, she hits puberty, meaning 12,
13 years old, he was going to marry her. So they
were living in miserable, miserable condition.
And when they came back, I think the mother was
happy, the kids were happy. We not only put bad
people in jail, we also help the American people
making sure that, you know, we protect our children
as well. So people should know that. Is there
anything you want to add there? I just want to,
I think, also remind folks that, you know, some
of I think May's example is a great example of
the overseas activity. one of many things that
the Bureau does and does well. And obviously,
the splashy investigations that Mark was talking
about. But there are a lot of things that go
sort of under the radar. I think financial fraud
investigations, one of my favorite cases, brought
a lot of peace to people in central Massachusetts.
I don't know if you all remember the Green Dot
scams. where people were being targeted and told
that they were under IRS investigation or some
sort of crazy scheme. And if they didn't go get
a green deck card and load a certain amount of
money on it, someone would come and arrest them.
And you had all kinds of folks who were being
targeted with this sort of scam and losing thousands
of dollars, sometimes life savings if they were
retirees. And we... I worked really closely with
the agent in the office, went through lines and
lines of data to find the one mistake that the
scammer made where the scammer used a real name
and a real phone number, and we were able to
identify him and bring him to justice. And even
though the victims probably won't see a penny
back because of the way restitution works, but
they got peace of mind. that they were in part
vindicated that this wasn't their fault. This
was someone else's fault who took advantage of
them. And I think those things that affect everyday
people, I think everyone listening to this probably
has experienced either a scam phone call or a
scam email. And to know that there's an organization
like the FBI out there looking out for you as
the consumer, as just a regular citizen, is important.
And not to mention, you know, the child exploitation
cases. You know, to me, there's a special place
in hell for people who target the elderly and
children. And without the FBI, you don't have
people looking out for those groups of people
and able to bring them to justice. I think it's
really important for everyone listening to this,
the American people in general, to know that
that's what this organization is there for to
do, and they do it well. Thanks, Nikki. That's
absolutely perfect. And, you know, as we start
finishing up, I want to ask each of you this.
For someone who doesn't follow the FBI on a daily
basis like we do, why does it matter if the Bureau
loses its independence? What does that mean for
the American people? And if you would each just
give me, you know, your own quick thought on
what that means to you, what this means to the
American people, I would be grateful. Okay, I'll
give it a shot here. I think I mentioned earlier
that the FBI has this almost mythical reputation
as the world's premier law enforcement agency.
And I think it's a well -earned reputation. We
hire the best people, the most qualified. They
get very well trained. And a lot of it is training
how we follow the rules. And it all goes back
to the Constitution. We understand our authorities
and the limits of our authorities. And we play
by the rules. So an apolitical and independent
FBI is vital to justice, democracy, and national
security. I mean, the integrity and effectiveness
and reputation depend on absolute independence.
And I think that assures the American public
that all Americans, all people are treated equally
and upholds the Constitution. And that is essential
to our credibility. We must remain apolitical
and be seen that way. Absolutely. Well said,
Mark. Just to build off of what Mark said, I
think I echo that, but I also emphasize that
the United States is considered the premier democracy
in the world, right? We have always portrayed
ourselves that way. We, for good or for bad,
have interacted with other countries around the
world, wanting them to take on our brand of democracy.
You can't have a fully functioning democracy
if you don't uphold the rule of law. And when
politics makes its way into the premier law enforcement
organization in the United States, the FBI, you
are jeopardizing the rule of law. You're jeopardizing.
the Constitution that we hold so dear, and you're
jeopardizing our image and the image we've projected
for, this is our 250th anniversary. For 250 years,
we've projected this imagery of being something
to model yourself after. And rule of law has
always been central to that. And the fact that
people in this country should be able to have
a fair trial. fair shake when it comes down to,
you know, when they're being investigated or
even if they're on the opposite side, if they're
in trouble, they also get a fair trial and a
fair opportunity to prove that they are, you
know, prove that they're not guilty. So I think
that that to me is super important as well. Nikki?
I couldn't agree more. I think they hit it like.
They're 100 % correct about what they said about
the Bureau. The other thing I can only add is
the trust of the people in the Bureau. I think
that's just so important because without people's
trust, we can't do our job. And I think we are
not apolitical. People will stop trusting us.
I think there were times when something happened
at the state level. people would say, bring in
the feds. And now I think we are losing that
connection and that trust with the American people.
And I think it's extremely important for us to
have that to do our job. Well, and with that,
thank each of you so much. You've all heard from
the four of us, the careers we shared. And what
you now understand is that what unites us, besides
our friendship, is respect for our oath, adherence
to the rule of law, and keeping politics out
of the job. And that's worth defending. So I
am very grateful, Mark, Nikki, and May, that
you joined us tonight. Just fantastic. And thanks,
everyone, for listening. If you like what you
heard, please consider subscribing to the Steady
State Sentinel. This is Lauren Anderson, Still
Standing Watch. Thank you for listening to the
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