WEBVTT - AI Generated 00:00:03.320 --> 00:00:05.700 The Steady State Sentinel is produced by the 00:00:05.700 --> 00:00:07.679 Steady State, a community of former national 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:09.960 security professionals who spent their careers 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:12.800 safeguarding the United States at home and abroad. 00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:20.199 Today, we continue that mission by staying true 00:00:20.199 --> 00:00:23.640 to our oaths to defend the Constitution, uphold 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:26.500 our democracy, and protect our nation's security. 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:30.260 Join our expert hosts as they interview field 00:00:30.260 --> 00:00:33.380 -tested guests whose unique experiences shed 00:00:33.380 --> 00:00:36.719 light on the crises and challenges facing our 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:53.700 nation. Welcome to the Steady State Sentinel. 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:57.679 I'm Lauren Anderson. Over the past few years, 00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:00.100 many Americans have started asking whether they 00:01:00.100 --> 00:01:03.299 can still trust the FBI. That's not a partisan 00:01:03.299 --> 00:01:07.519 question. It's a democratic one. The FBI is one 00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:09.700 of the most powerful institutions in our nation 00:01:09.700 --> 00:01:12.939 and one of the least understood. What keeps it 00:01:12.939 --> 00:01:15.840 disciplined and apolitical is its adherence to 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:19.480 process, evidence, and the rule of law. Tonight, 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:22.980 I'm joined by three guests. All of us spent decades 00:01:22.980 --> 00:01:26.780 inside the FBI. We've seen it at its best, and 00:01:26.780 --> 00:01:28.980 we've seen moments that gave each of us pause. 00:01:29.939 --> 00:01:32.200 This is a conversation among professionals who 00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:34.799 understand the Bureau from the inside and who 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:37.060 believe its credibility rests on discipline, 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:42.040 restraint, and staying out of politics. So with 00:01:42.040 --> 00:01:44.140 that, I want to get started so you have the opportunity 00:01:44.140 --> 00:01:47.879 to hear from each of my colleagues. And Mark, 00:01:48.019 --> 00:01:49.840 would you please introduce yourself and start 00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:53.579 us off? Yeah, thank you, Lauren. Mark Ferber 00:01:53.579 --> 00:01:57.680 -Shea. I joined the FBI in 1983 at the age of 00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:00.700 26. Came into the Bureau's accounting program, 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:03.299 and for my early years, I worked complex financial 00:02:03.299 --> 00:02:09.139 crimes. And then later on, I transitioned over 00:02:09.139 --> 00:02:11.259 to the national security side of the house, where 00:02:11.259 --> 00:02:15.319 I oversaw counterterrorism investigations. And 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:18.680 then I even did a stint at the CIA's Counterterrorism 00:02:18.680 --> 00:02:21.419 Center. just before retiring from the Bureau. 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:25.340 And then after 28 years in the FBI, or nearly 00:02:25.340 --> 00:02:28.939 28 years, I retired, and then I joined the Department 00:02:28.939 --> 00:02:31.819 of Energy's Office of Intelligence and Counterintelligence 00:02:31.819 --> 00:02:37.340 to help thwart foreign efforts at targeting DOE's 00:02:37.340 --> 00:02:42.219 labs and national security equities there. That's 00:02:42.219 --> 00:02:44.319 great. And so now we know you left because you 00:02:44.319 --> 00:02:46.500 retired out of the Bureau, but what brought you 00:02:46.500 --> 00:02:51.099 into the FBI? That's a good question. I thought 00:02:51.099 --> 00:02:54.159 about that when we last spoke, and I never had 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:56.919 a driving urge to get in the FBI until I graduated 00:02:56.919 --> 00:03:00.120 from college the first time. My brother -in -law 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:03.699 had just been laid off as a teacher, and he looked 00:03:03.699 --> 00:03:08.560 into the FBI as a potential alternative. He didn't 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:10.419 pursue it, but he said I should, and I thought, 00:03:10.539 --> 00:03:14.620 what the heck? I had a BA in political science 00:03:14.620 --> 00:03:19.169 back in about 1980. So I walked into the FBI 00:03:19.169 --> 00:03:21.550 field office in Seattle and said, what does it 00:03:21.550 --> 00:03:24.610 take to get a job as a special agent? I was ushered 00:03:24.610 --> 00:03:28.449 inside, talked to a recruiter. Oh, he was fantastic. 00:03:29.430 --> 00:03:32.330 I was hooked. He told me the greatest war stories 00:03:32.330 --> 00:03:36.490 about chasing fugitives in Chicago and doing 00:03:36.490 --> 00:03:39.889 surveillances on foot and in vehicles and doing 00:03:39.889 --> 00:03:43.430 interviews. That was it. But I had at that time, 00:03:43.569 --> 00:03:48.259 I wasn't qualified. I had to either go back to 00:03:48.259 --> 00:03:54.520 get a law degree or get another BA in business 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:56.759 with a concentration in accounting. Well, that 00:03:56.759 --> 00:03:59.340 was the short route and I took that. So that's 00:03:59.340 --> 00:04:01.960 kind of how I wound up getting into the FBI. 00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:04.719 Kind of just fell into it. But boy, I'll tell 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:09.199 you, it was the right job. It was really, I just 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:13.139 had a ball and I miss it tremendously. I think 00:04:13.139 --> 00:04:18.949 we all do. Hey, Nikki, how about you? So I started 00:04:18.949 --> 00:04:22.189 my career actually more broadly in the U .S. 00:04:22.189 --> 00:04:26.550 intelligence community in 2003. I started as 00:04:26.550 --> 00:04:28.870 an intern with the Defense Intelligence Agency 00:04:28.870 --> 00:04:33.009 working as an intelligence analyst, which happened 00:04:33.009 --> 00:04:36.470 right after I had partially completed a Ph .D. 00:04:36.470 --> 00:04:40.629 program. And that quickly transitioned into a 00:04:40.629 --> 00:04:42.069 full -time role with the Defense Intelligence 00:04:42.069 --> 00:04:45.980 Agency. From there, I transitioned into the FBI 00:04:45.980 --> 00:04:50.060 at FBI headquarters, actually LX1, to work in 00:04:50.060 --> 00:04:52.639 the counterterrorism division in the counterterrorism 00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:58.420 analytics section. I then moved on to FBI, well, 00:04:58.459 --> 00:05:01.759 actually did a... what's called a joint duty 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:03.800 assignment with the Office of the Director of 00:05:03.800 --> 00:05:05.980 National Intelligence in a mission management 00:05:05.980 --> 00:05:09.560 office before I eventually made it to FBI Boston 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:13.300 because Massachusetts was home. So I finally 00:05:13.300 --> 00:05:16.100 made it back and then worked a variety of roles 00:05:16.100 --> 00:05:21.180 in FBI Boston. I supervised analysts that were 00:05:21.180 --> 00:05:25.480 embedded in the crime squads. I eventually became 00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:30.769 one of the first SSIAs, a supervisory senior 00:05:30.769 --> 00:05:33.790 intelligence analyst, where I was building out 00:05:33.790 --> 00:05:36.790 a regional intelligence group. And then my last 00:05:36.790 --> 00:05:41.370 duty with the Bureau was in the Worcester Resident 00:05:41.370 --> 00:05:45.230 Agency, which made my commute lovely. And I had 00:05:45.230 --> 00:05:48.550 a great time working cases again and supporting 00:05:48.550 --> 00:05:50.790 agents in that capacity in the Worcester RA. 00:05:51.209 --> 00:05:56.129 I left in 2022 to... make my way in the private 00:05:56.129 --> 00:05:58.829 sector. I built an intelligence program at a 00:05:58.829 --> 00:06:00.829 pharmaceutical company, and I've since moved 00:06:00.829 --> 00:06:04.709 on to intelligence and security consulting. Like 00:06:04.709 --> 00:06:09.730 Mark, I did not even think I would ever work 00:06:09.730 --> 00:06:14.149 for the FBI at any point in my early years as 00:06:14.149 --> 00:06:17.449 an undergrad or even early in grad school. I 00:06:17.449 --> 00:06:20.949 had to find my way there kind of the hard way. 00:06:21.709 --> 00:06:24.350 I did a bunch of internships, which I advocate 00:06:24.350 --> 00:06:27.550 for with students all the time, tested some things 00:06:27.550 --> 00:06:31.410 out to see what stuck, knew that I was civic 00:06:31.410 --> 00:06:33.769 minded, wanted to do something that gave back 00:06:33.769 --> 00:06:37.930 and had a mission, which led me to Defense Intelligence 00:06:37.930 --> 00:06:40.829 Agency. And I absolutely loved it. It was the 00:06:40.829 --> 00:06:43.269 aha moment where I was like, this is the career 00:06:43.269 --> 00:06:45.310 I've been looking for. Intelligence analysis 00:06:45.310 --> 00:06:48.670 is what I was meant to do. And I continue to 00:06:48.670 --> 00:06:50.970 have a passion for intelligence analysis even 00:06:50.970 --> 00:06:53.629 now in the private sector. I really just love 00:06:53.629 --> 00:06:58.269 the work that I'm doing. And I, too, miss my 00:06:58.269 --> 00:07:01.029 time with the Bureau and working some really 00:07:01.029 --> 00:07:03.230 interesting cases. It's much different in the 00:07:03.230 --> 00:07:08.649 private sector. Nikki, what caused you to leave 00:07:08.649 --> 00:07:14.110 the Bureau? It was a combination of variables 00:07:14.110 --> 00:07:18.310 I had spent. So when I got to the Bureau in 2005, 00:07:18.589 --> 00:07:21.550 it was really at the beginning of the intelligence 00:07:21.550 --> 00:07:26.189 analyst journey with the FBI. It was after the 00:07:26.189 --> 00:07:28.569 9 -11 Commission reports came out and really 00:07:28.569 --> 00:07:31.709 the creation of intelligence analysis at the 00:07:31.709 --> 00:07:35.350 FBI. I saw a lot of growth and progression coming 00:07:35.350 --> 00:07:38.089 from another agency. I knew what the career path 00:07:38.089 --> 00:07:40.490 should look like. I knew what the product should 00:07:40.490 --> 00:07:44.300 look like. There was a lot of, you know, a lot 00:07:44.300 --> 00:07:46.699 of growth and development there, but at some 00:07:46.699 --> 00:07:49.939 point it had stagnated. And I really felt the 00:07:49.939 --> 00:07:53.240 burden of that and felt really frustrated by 00:07:53.240 --> 00:07:55.660 the lack of growth and development for intelligence 00:07:55.660 --> 00:08:00.360 analysts in the Bureau. And the environment that 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:03.300 I was in at the time, things were just different 00:08:03.300 --> 00:08:07.740 in the post -COVID world. And some of the new 00:08:07.740 --> 00:08:10.540 analysts coming out of Quantico, weren't as well 00:08:10.540 --> 00:08:12.620 trained as I would have hoped they had been. 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:14.980 There were a lot of challenges there that led 00:08:14.980 --> 00:08:17.180 to my frustration with intelligence as a whole. 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:20.519 And so when I looked around, I just decided it 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:23.360 was time. It was time for me to move on to something 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:27.240 else. I had done what I could there, and it was 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:29.279 time to let the next generation try and take 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:33.919 it to the next level. Vicki? May, how about you? 00:08:33.940 --> 00:08:39.929 What's your story? Thanks. Thanks for the invite, 00:08:40.029 --> 00:08:44.769 Lauren. I really appreciate it. As you know, 00:08:45.070 --> 00:08:51.789 just like Mark and Nikki, I had no intentions 00:08:51.789 --> 00:08:54.889 of joining the Bureau. That wasn't my lifelong 00:08:54.889 --> 00:09:03.330 dream or anything. So after 9 -11, I... felt 00:09:03.330 --> 00:09:07.389 that I needed to do something, kind of give back 00:09:07.389 --> 00:09:11.549 to the country that just I call home now and 00:09:11.549 --> 00:09:14.970 just had this sense of responsibility that I 00:09:14.970 --> 00:09:21.350 needed to be part of the solution. So I actually 00:09:21.350 --> 00:09:25.470 applied right after 9 -11. It took Bureau three 00:09:25.470 --> 00:09:31.129 years to get back to me. They called me. I had 00:09:31.129 --> 00:09:33.789 applied to all three letters agencies. And then 00:09:33.789 --> 00:09:38.250 when Bureau called, I was working as a financial 00:09:38.250 --> 00:09:41.909 analyst. So I worked part time as a linguist 00:09:41.909 --> 00:09:44.789 for the Bureau. And then while I was working 00:09:44.789 --> 00:09:48.750 with other agents, they encouraged me to go to 00:09:48.750 --> 00:09:52.789 Quantico and become an agent. And that's what 00:09:52.789 --> 00:09:56.970 I did. And I came back to New York as a counterterrorism 00:09:56.970 --> 00:10:03.149 agent. You were my ISAC at that time. So you 00:10:03.149 --> 00:10:07.690 have known me my entire career. And after several 00:10:07.690 --> 00:10:12.629 relocations and different leadership roles, I 00:10:12.629 --> 00:10:16.690 concluded my journey with the Bureau in Salt 00:10:16.690 --> 00:10:19.990 Lake City office as a special agent in charge. 00:10:21.230 --> 00:10:29.379 And what was behind your departure? I wasn't 00:10:29.379 --> 00:10:34.940 planning to retire just yet, but right a week 00:10:34.940 --> 00:10:38.159 before I was eligible to retire, I was asked 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:43.379 to leave Salt Lake City. My options were either 00:10:43.379 --> 00:10:48.860 to retire or go to Huntsville as a section chief. 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:55.700 And I decided that I'm going to retire because 00:10:55.700 --> 00:10:59.129 I love... what I was doing. And it's always about 00:10:59.129 --> 00:11:01.889 the needs of the Bureau. So when somebody is 00:11:01.889 --> 00:11:06.389 asking you to step down from your position, it 00:11:06.389 --> 00:11:10.470 was time to leave. And I have amazing memories. 00:11:10.690 --> 00:11:15.669 And I just, I can, every time I think about it, 00:11:15.769 --> 00:11:21.870 I just feel really gratitude. And I feel so humbled 00:11:21.870 --> 00:11:27.389 that I had the opportunity to serve. May, and 00:11:27.389 --> 00:11:29.429 for those of our listeners who might not know, 00:11:29.549 --> 00:11:33.289 when May says she was asked about going to Huntsville, 00:11:33.389 --> 00:11:35.529 essentially she was offered a demotion that would 00:11:35.529 --> 00:11:38.549 have put her two steps backwards based on all 00:11:38.549 --> 00:11:41.090 of the roles she had had up to that point in 00:11:41.090 --> 00:11:44.909 leading field offices. So that was a very significant 00:11:44.909 --> 00:11:48.389 moment, and May is understating it, but I don't 00:11:48.389 --> 00:11:52.990 want to understate it. It was not a good decision. 00:11:53.700 --> 00:11:56.419 So to move on from there, let's get to our conversation. 00:11:56.500 --> 00:11:59.940 I know that we've all talked and we've all talked 00:11:59.940 --> 00:12:02.519 about the fact that we know things started shifting. 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:05.220 Some people think it started shifting with Director 00:12:05.220 --> 00:12:08.600 Comey's choice to publicly talk about an investigation, 00:12:08.860 --> 00:12:12.700 others earlier. So I don't want to get into lengthy 00:12:12.700 --> 00:12:15.960 answers, but if you can say for each one of you, 00:12:15.980 --> 00:12:18.159 doesn't matter which order you go, what moment 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:21.169 stood out? um for you was there a single event 00:12:21.169 --> 00:12:24.809 or did you see a gradual shift over time um and 00:12:24.809 --> 00:12:26.769 if we can just go with that then we'll move into 00:12:26.769 --> 00:12:30.889 more core conversation after that so for me uh 00:12:30.889 --> 00:12:34.450 as a as a case agent i think the one thing that 00:12:34.450 --> 00:12:37.169 i really really loved about being in the bureau 00:12:37.169 --> 00:12:42.269 is that we we did our job and nobody ever told 00:12:42.269 --> 00:12:46.509 us what needed to be done based on politics or 00:12:46.509 --> 00:12:50.909 anything like that And we took the cases, we 00:12:50.909 --> 00:12:56.110 opened cases, and we followed the evidence. I 00:12:56.110 --> 00:13:02.250 think I started seeing the change in 2020. I 00:13:02.250 --> 00:13:07.049 think it was during the BLM movement. And what 00:13:07.049 --> 00:13:10.049 happened was there were police vehicles that 00:13:10.049 --> 00:13:14.580 were burned by the crowd. And we opened the case 00:13:14.580 --> 00:13:17.340 and we were working with the U .S. Attorney's 00:13:17.340 --> 00:13:20.480 Office and we were having a hard time getting 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:25.039 subpoenas and warrants. And that was the moment 00:13:25.039 --> 00:13:30.820 for me looking at this event saying, what happened? 00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:33.620 Why can't we get our warrants and subpoenas? 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:36.779 But a crime was committed and we are trying to 00:13:36.779 --> 00:13:43.070 investigate. So I think. I saw the change, a 00:13:43.070 --> 00:13:47.870 little bit politics seeping into the Bureau and 00:13:47.870 --> 00:13:55.250 our investigations in 2020. Let me ask you this. 00:13:55.309 --> 00:13:57.629 What does this look like for all three of you? 00:13:57.669 --> 00:13:59.909 And I know you've each had different inflection 00:13:59.909 --> 00:14:02.480 points in your careers, but... When the rules 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:04.799 start changing, the processes start changing, 00:14:04.860 --> 00:14:08.559 and it feels like politics is coming into play 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:13.240 in an institution that we all know is to be apolitical. 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:15.299 What does that mean for the people who are doing 00:14:15.299 --> 00:14:17.220 the work on the ground? How does that affect 00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:21.559 decisions? What does that look like? I think, 00:14:21.559 --> 00:14:25.379 you know, just to kind of follow in here, it's 00:14:25.379 --> 00:14:29.210 extremely frustrating. To a person, everyone 00:14:29.210 --> 00:14:32.789 in the FBI is trying to work towards a common 00:14:32.789 --> 00:14:36.350 mission. They're dedicated to upholding the Constitution, 00:14:36.750 --> 00:14:40.230 the rule of law. These things are uniquely important. 00:14:40.450 --> 00:14:42.690 We all take an oath to the Constitution when 00:14:42.690 --> 00:14:46.509 we start our job. And when politics starts to 00:14:46.509 --> 00:14:50.019 creep into that, it hinders everyone's ability 00:14:50.019 --> 00:14:53.379 to do their work, either because to May's point, 00:14:53.500 --> 00:14:55.919 they can't get the legal process they need to 00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:59.279 proceed with the investigation, or they're faced 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:04.059 with questions or challenges to why an investigation 00:15:04.059 --> 00:15:07.080 was open in the first place in instances where 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:09.679 that wouldn't normally happen. And I think for 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:14.210 each of us, It becomes, you know, sort of that, 00:15:14.289 --> 00:15:17.190 again, like an inflection point of what's happening 00:15:17.190 --> 00:15:21.309 here. Why is this harder than it should be? Because 00:15:21.309 --> 00:15:23.909 quite frankly, to work an investigation, whether 00:15:23.909 --> 00:15:25.789 you're an agent or an analyst supporting that 00:15:25.789 --> 00:15:29.809 investigation, it's incredibly hard to work an 00:15:29.809 --> 00:15:33.370 investigation and meet all of the legal standards. 00:15:33.429 --> 00:15:36.870 And everyone takes such pride in that work to 00:15:36.870 --> 00:15:40.830 get it to U .S. Attorney's Office. to really 00:15:40.830 --> 00:15:48.269 get them on board with continuing the process 00:15:48.269 --> 00:15:51.190 of the investigation, that when you can't even 00:15:51.190 --> 00:15:55.649 get those little steps along the way completed, 00:15:56.110 --> 00:16:01.289 it's just incredibly frustrating. What do you 00:16:01.289 --> 00:16:08.659 think? Yeah, so... When I joined long ago, I 00:16:08.659 --> 00:16:11.539 noticed a slight culture change that I mentioned 00:16:11.539 --> 00:16:15.639 before about how the newer agents coming in 20, 00:16:15.700 --> 00:16:18.440 25 years younger than me were not as committed 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:21.740 to the Bureau. It was more kind of like a credential 00:16:21.740 --> 00:16:25.220 that they could use as a resume builder. And 00:16:25.220 --> 00:16:27.519 so it wasn't institutional. It wasn't politicization, 00:16:27.740 --> 00:16:31.059 but it was a change. And I assumed that was maybe. 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:33.980 maybe a different way of recruiting, who they 00:16:33.980 --> 00:16:36.700 were targeting for recruitment. But the big tipping 00:16:36.700 --> 00:16:42.620 point came when Comey had his outburst on July 00:16:42.620 --> 00:16:47.200 of 2016. I have to imagine, now I've been out 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:51.700 since 2011, but imagine what the working folks, 00:16:51.899 --> 00:16:55.159 the workforce, let's call them the rank and file, 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:57.899 that must have been tremendously confusing for 00:16:57.899 --> 00:17:01.649 them. Because we got recruited and trained rigorously 00:17:01.649 --> 00:17:05.250 in Quantico about our authorities, procedures, 00:17:05.789 --> 00:17:10.630 rules, customs, and he blew them out of the water. 00:17:10.990 --> 00:17:14.509 So how does it affect people in the field? It 00:17:14.509 --> 00:17:16.990 makes me think they must be thinking like, well, 00:17:17.069 --> 00:17:19.450 what do I do now? I'm shooting at a moving target. 00:17:19.549 --> 00:17:22.789 Do these rules apply to me or do they only apply, 00:17:22.970 --> 00:17:27.400 you know? to executives when they decide they 00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:29.740 want to enforce them or decide to follow them. 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:35.220 So I find it really deteriorates the continuity 00:17:35.220 --> 00:17:39.880 of the whole agency because people start wondering, 00:17:40.059 --> 00:17:43.380 how do I make my decisions? Do I continue to 00:17:43.380 --> 00:17:47.299 follow the rules? Or if I do something that upsets 00:17:47.299 --> 00:17:51.359 somebody, then maybe my career is on the line. 00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:57.759 That's a frightening place. to be. As we all 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:01.980 know, I can't even imagine how people are dealing 00:18:01.980 --> 00:18:04.720 with it today. And I appreciate you being so 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:08.619 candid about that, both Mark and Nikki. And May, 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:11.180 I know you talked a little bit about where you 00:18:11.180 --> 00:18:14.059 saw some differences on the January 6th investigations. 00:18:14.220 --> 00:18:17.220 Could you touch on that briefly and how that 00:18:17.220 --> 00:18:20.000 made you and the folks that you worked with feel? 00:18:21.390 --> 00:18:28.490 Yes. So I think the January 6th cases, I felt 00:18:28.490 --> 00:18:32.009 that the office was kind of divided when that 00:18:32.009 --> 00:18:38.789 started to happen. To me, I think there were 00:18:38.789 --> 00:18:43.410 some righteous cases, but I think some were just, 00:18:43.509 --> 00:18:49.309 we went a little too far. And I think that created 00:18:49.309 --> 00:18:52.450 a little bit unrest within the Bureau, within 00:18:52.450 --> 00:18:57.009 agents, where agents felt uncomfortable opening 00:18:57.009 --> 00:19:04.930 cases. And that's where this unrest started in 00:19:04.930 --> 00:19:11.049 the Bureau. I had never seen anything like that 00:19:11.049 --> 00:19:14.269 before. We work cases, as you know, in the CT 00:19:14.269 --> 00:19:18.549 world. opened a case and everybody was jumping 00:19:18.549 --> 00:19:21.650 on it. Everybody was, they wouldn't even go home 00:19:21.650 --> 00:19:23.849 because they wanted to work those cases. But 00:19:23.849 --> 00:19:29.390 I think January 6th cases were very divisive 00:19:29.390 --> 00:19:33.589 for the field offices. Some people were really 00:19:33.589 --> 00:19:38.809 for those cases. Some were just, they thought 00:19:38.809 --> 00:19:42.769 that we are infringing on First Amendment rights 00:19:42.769 --> 00:19:47.480 of people at that time. I think we all agree 00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:49.619 that there's nothing good about that, because 00:19:49.619 --> 00:19:52.059 one thing the Bureau has done well, and I'll 00:19:52.059 --> 00:19:54.220 use this as a migration to the next question 00:19:54.220 --> 00:19:56.619 I have for you, is that that's what we've stuck 00:19:56.619 --> 00:19:59.059 with. As an institution, the Bureau has made 00:19:59.059 --> 00:20:02.259 mistakes before, unquestionably. But we've also 00:20:02.259 --> 00:20:04.259 been able to right the ship and get it where 00:20:04.259 --> 00:20:07.980 it belongs. And as we all know, the legal standard 00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:10.160 of the least intrusive means of investigating 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:13.019 somebody and being very, very cautious about. 00:20:13.660 --> 00:20:16.019 First Amendment rights and not going down that 00:20:16.019 --> 00:20:19.519 road of violating that. And that may is exactly 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:22.380 what you're talking about, as you saw on J6. 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:24.980 And I think that's some of what we're seeing 00:20:24.980 --> 00:20:28.559 right now. So in that vein, though, looking at 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:30.799 the positive side, I would love it if each of 00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:34.539 you could give. an example from your own career 00:20:34.539 --> 00:20:36.440 or else something that stands out to you when 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:38.519 the Bureau really got it right, when they nailed 00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:40.680 it, everything was done by the book, and you're 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:43.759 super proud of what the end result was. So maybe 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:45.779 if each of you could share an example about that, 00:20:45.819 --> 00:20:50.279 it would be terrific. I'll go. Thanks, Mark. 00:20:50.660 --> 00:20:56.200 I think in my memory, what I think was a wonderfully 00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:59.000 done case by the Bureau that was very successful 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:04.180 was the Oklahoma City bombing. Because this is 00:21:04.180 --> 00:21:08.420 a lot many years ago, 1995. But what the agents 00:21:08.420 --> 00:21:12.359 did was incredible. The next day, they went through 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:16.599 the rubble. And this is an exploded federal building. 00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:20.119 And I got the VIN number off an axle of a Ryder 00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:23.579 truck that McVeigh used to drive the bomb over 00:21:23.579 --> 00:21:27.220 there to Oklahoma City. The next day, they went 00:21:27.220 --> 00:21:32.039 out to where he rented the truck. The employees 00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:34.680 there cooperated with the FBI and they did a 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:37.420 composite sketch of McVeigh. And then they did 00:21:37.420 --> 00:21:39.460 the neighborhood. They canvassed the area with 00:21:39.460 --> 00:21:42.180 that sketch. And they finally identified. Someone 00:21:42.180 --> 00:21:45.380 said, yeah, that's McVeigh. And then they learned 00:21:45.380 --> 00:21:48.460 and they ran his name, I think in Stegis, and 00:21:48.460 --> 00:21:50.900 found out, well, lo and behold, he's in jail. 00:21:51.019 --> 00:21:54.180 He was arrested about 90 minutes after the explosion. 00:21:54.180 --> 00:21:56.980 And he was sitting in an Oklahoma City jail because 00:21:56.980 --> 00:22:00.329 he got pulled over by a trooper. And for lack 00:22:00.329 --> 00:22:03.990 of license plate and carrying a concealed weapon. 00:22:04.210 --> 00:22:06.829 And the rest is history after that. They got 00:22:06.829 --> 00:22:10.190 forensic material off his clothes, evidence of 00:22:10.190 --> 00:22:14.609 bomb materials and all that. And no press conferences 00:22:14.609 --> 00:22:17.809 about how great we're doing. Obviously, there 00:22:17.809 --> 00:22:21.269 was no social media, but everybody just was an 00:22:21.269 --> 00:22:25.390 all out law enforcement effort by the book. No 00:22:25.390 --> 00:22:27.990 public information released except what was already 00:22:27.990 --> 00:22:31.380 out there. It was done by the book and it was 00:22:31.380 --> 00:22:34.619 done, you know, according to policy and procedure. 00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:37.039 And it was a successful prosecution. And they 00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:41.619 identified he had two other accomplices that 00:22:41.619 --> 00:22:44.599 were identified along the way. So, I mean, and 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:47.240 there's other ones. They got Aldrich Ames. They've 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:50.420 got the Unabomber. They got some of these, you 00:22:50.420 --> 00:22:53.640 know, those were Aldrich Ames was a counterintellect, 00:22:53.660 --> 00:22:56.900 an espionage case. This guy was a CIA case officer. 00:22:57.660 --> 00:23:00.359 who was committing espionage. I mean, imagine 00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:05.299 how difficult that is. And then we had Hansen, 00:23:05.299 --> 00:23:09.920 one of our own people in the building. These 00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:13.740 are incredibly complicated and tough, and we're 00:23:13.740 --> 00:23:17.140 navigating the fact of an insider, either CIA 00:23:17.140 --> 00:23:21.480 or FBI, but also following the rules and making 00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:23.599 sure that at the end of the day, we've got a 00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:28.140 solid case that's prosecutable. That's my those 00:23:28.140 --> 00:23:30.960 are my examples of successes that the FBI has 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:33.299 had. And they're great ones, because I will point 00:23:33.299 --> 00:23:36.400 out, having overseen espionage matters for quite 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:40.039 a few years, that they are without question the 00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:43.319 most difficult cases to investigate, because 00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:46.579 by virtue of what that person's doing, they're 00:23:46.579 --> 00:23:48.859 hiding everything. They're not talking to anybody. 00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:51.839 We can't understate the complexity that goes 00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:54.819 around an espionage investigation, particularly 00:23:54.819 --> 00:23:58.259 when you're talking about an insider. It's devastating, 00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:01.299 and it's also a miracle at the same time that 00:24:01.299 --> 00:24:03.660 we're able to bring those cases to fruition and 00:24:03.660 --> 00:24:07.460 successfully prosecute them. Thanks for mentioning 00:24:07.460 --> 00:24:10.099 that. I'm sorry, Mark, go ahead. No, I was just 00:24:10.099 --> 00:24:12.940 going to say, and I think those are, people don't 00:24:12.940 --> 00:24:15.339 remember those. Those have been a while, but 00:24:15.339 --> 00:24:18.259 it's important that. to put all these things 00:24:18.259 --> 00:24:20.740 about how we're critical of the Bureau and how 00:24:20.740 --> 00:24:23.599 the Bureau is changing in maybe not such a good 00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:26.220 way, to remember some of the things that they've 00:24:26.220 --> 00:24:29.880 done that are remarkable, like these cases. You 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:33.160 know, pent bombs, another one. But I think the 00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:39.039 FBI was the premier law enforcement agency in 00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:43.059 the world. you know, domestically, and we had 00:24:43.059 --> 00:24:45.579 international partnerships that were extremely 00:24:45.579 --> 00:24:48.619 valuable because of our expertise. So I think 00:24:48.619 --> 00:24:50.980 it's important to remember those and hopefully 00:24:50.980 --> 00:24:54.559 maybe, you know, leverage those to get back to 00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:57.819 that type of productivity and that type of success. 00:24:58.539 --> 00:25:01.440 Thanks. I appreciate that, Mark. Nikki, May, 00:25:01.579 --> 00:25:03.160 do either of you have anything you'd like to 00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:08.990 add? I will go first, Lauren. I think I... Couldn't 00:25:08.990 --> 00:25:11.750 agree with Mark. Those were great examples. But 00:25:11.750 --> 00:25:15.509 also just to remind people that we don't do just 00:25:15.509 --> 00:25:20.549 cases inside the U .S. We also do overseas cases. 00:25:21.950 --> 00:25:26.930 I remember when I was overseas in Jordan, we 00:25:26.930 --> 00:25:33.640 worked just day in, day out. working mostly counterterrorism 00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:38.640 matters. But we also work with the embassy on 00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:42.720 all these other different cases. I remember, 00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:47.799 even though I worked CT cases, this is, I feel 00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:51.579 like, the highlight for me as a mother of my 00:25:51.579 --> 00:25:55.680 career, because we had this one individual who 00:25:55.680 --> 00:26:01.140 was a Jordanian American citizen, and he... kidnapped 00:26:01.140 --> 00:26:04.319 his two kids and brought them to Jordan. And 00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:08.500 he told his ex -wife that if she ever wants to 00:26:08.500 --> 00:26:13.240 see the kids, she has to come and live in Jordan. 00:26:13.559 --> 00:26:20.140 And I got a phone call from the case agent. She 00:26:20.140 --> 00:26:23.799 was in the U .S. and she asked me, she's like, 00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:26.980 what can we do? This guy kidnapped the kids. 00:26:27.140 --> 00:26:30.559 And I know we work. parental kidnapping cases 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:34.039 and the bureau however different rules of these 00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:37.519 different countries you know we have to follow 00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:41.000 and respect those so in jordan if you're a jordanian 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:46.579 citizen they gave the authority to the father 00:26:46.579 --> 00:26:49.819 to have the kids and there was no way around 00:26:49.819 --> 00:26:55.220 it And I work with all the different agencies, 00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:58.339 even the Sharia law, just trying to figure out 00:26:58.339 --> 00:27:01.839 if there is any way we can bring those kids back 00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:09.359 to the U .S. And I was told that there is no 00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:12.720 way those kids can ever come back because those 00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:17.019 parental kidnappings happens and it's the father's 00:27:17.019 --> 00:27:21.180 right. Not to get into too many details, but 00:27:21.180 --> 00:27:26.680 we were able to bring those kids back to the 00:27:26.680 --> 00:27:31.099 U .S. I think I kind of didn't tell my league 00:27:31.099 --> 00:27:33.940 yet what I was doing because I figured if somebody 00:27:33.940 --> 00:27:35.839 is going to get kicked out of the country, it 00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:38.779 should be me and one should stay back because 00:27:38.779 --> 00:27:42.240 it might have created an international incident 00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:48.160 because we actually... created this whole plot 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:51.619 and then the mother came and picked up the kids 00:27:51.619 --> 00:27:54.960 from school and came to the U .S. Embassy and 00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:58.839 we actually made sure that we had the tickets 00:27:58.839 --> 00:28:01.440 ready and we worked with the Jordanian airline 00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:06.619 and sent them back home. And I was actually recently 00:28:06.619 --> 00:28:10.240 talking to the case agents and she told me that 00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:15.470 the mother, she thanked us. Almost, you know, 00:28:15.490 --> 00:28:19.329 she called this case agent all the time and just 00:28:19.329 --> 00:28:22.710 tell her, I think that thanks for the Bureau 00:28:22.710 --> 00:28:27.349 for giving her kids back. So being a mom, I think 00:28:27.349 --> 00:28:33.990 I really felt really, you know, it just, it made 00:28:33.990 --> 00:28:37.250 me cry. I usually am not a crying type, but it 00:28:37.250 --> 00:28:39.829 was just very emotional to see those kids with 00:28:39.829 --> 00:28:43.960 the mother crying. Because the father wasn't 00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:47.059 the father of the year, he was ready to, he was 00:28:47.059 --> 00:28:51.859 talking about marrying her, marrying the daughter 00:28:51.859 --> 00:28:57.259 once she become, she hits puberty, meaning 12, 00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:00.339 13 years old, he was going to marry her. So they 00:29:00.339 --> 00:29:02.740 were living in miserable, miserable condition. 00:29:02.779 --> 00:29:06.839 And when they came back, I think the mother was 00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:11.119 happy, the kids were happy. We not only put bad 00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:14.700 people in jail, we also help the American people 00:29:14.700 --> 00:29:19.440 making sure that, you know, we protect our children 00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:25.900 as well. So people should know that. Is there 00:29:25.900 --> 00:29:29.960 anything you want to add there? I just want to, 00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:33.900 I think, also remind folks that, you know, some 00:29:33.900 --> 00:29:36.440 of I think May's example is a great example of 00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:39.099 the overseas activity. one of many things that 00:29:39.099 --> 00:29:42.160 the Bureau does and does well. And obviously, 00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:45.380 the splashy investigations that Mark was talking 00:29:45.380 --> 00:29:47.619 about. But there are a lot of things that go 00:29:47.619 --> 00:29:51.400 sort of under the radar. I think financial fraud 00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:55.000 investigations, one of my favorite cases, brought 00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:58.140 a lot of peace to people in central Massachusetts. 00:29:58.220 --> 00:30:00.480 I don't know if you all remember the Green Dot 00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:04.339 scams. where people were being targeted and told 00:30:04.339 --> 00:30:07.259 that they were under IRS investigation or some 00:30:07.259 --> 00:30:10.200 sort of crazy scheme. And if they didn't go get 00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:12.500 a green deck card and load a certain amount of 00:30:12.500 --> 00:30:15.079 money on it, someone would come and arrest them. 00:30:15.220 --> 00:30:17.960 And you had all kinds of folks who were being 00:30:17.960 --> 00:30:21.160 targeted with this sort of scam and losing thousands 00:30:21.160 --> 00:30:24.400 of dollars, sometimes life savings if they were 00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:28.740 retirees. And we... I worked really closely with 00:30:28.740 --> 00:30:32.980 the agent in the office, went through lines and 00:30:32.980 --> 00:30:36.220 lines of data to find the one mistake that the 00:30:36.220 --> 00:30:39.079 scammer made where the scammer used a real name 00:30:39.079 --> 00:30:41.140 and a real phone number, and we were able to 00:30:41.140 --> 00:30:44.359 identify him and bring him to justice. And even 00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:46.940 though the victims probably won't see a penny 00:30:46.940 --> 00:30:50.519 back because of the way restitution works, but 00:30:50.519 --> 00:30:54.660 they got peace of mind. that they were in part 00:30:54.660 --> 00:30:57.160 vindicated that this wasn't their fault. This 00:30:57.160 --> 00:30:59.140 was someone else's fault who took advantage of 00:30:59.140 --> 00:31:02.000 them. And I think those things that affect everyday 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:05.799 people, I think everyone listening to this probably 00:31:05.799 --> 00:31:09.559 has experienced either a scam phone call or a 00:31:09.559 --> 00:31:12.220 scam email. And to know that there's an organization 00:31:12.220 --> 00:31:15.220 like the FBI out there looking out for you as 00:31:15.220 --> 00:31:18.980 the consumer, as just a regular citizen, is important. 00:31:19.690 --> 00:31:22.690 And not to mention, you know, the child exploitation 00:31:22.690 --> 00:31:26.250 cases. You know, to me, there's a special place 00:31:26.250 --> 00:31:28.710 in hell for people who target the elderly and 00:31:28.710 --> 00:31:32.670 children. And without the FBI, you don't have 00:31:32.670 --> 00:31:35.869 people looking out for those groups of people 00:31:35.869 --> 00:31:38.210 and able to bring them to justice. I think it's 00:31:38.210 --> 00:31:41.089 really important for everyone listening to this, 00:31:41.089 --> 00:31:43.470 the American people in general, to know that 00:31:43.470 --> 00:31:46.910 that's what this organization is there for to 00:31:46.910 --> 00:31:52.500 do, and they do it well. Thanks, Nikki. That's 00:31:52.500 --> 00:31:55.339 absolutely perfect. And, you know, as we start 00:31:55.339 --> 00:31:57.900 finishing up, I want to ask each of you this. 00:31:57.940 --> 00:32:00.240 For someone who doesn't follow the FBI on a daily 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:05.180 basis like we do, why does it matter if the Bureau 00:32:05.180 --> 00:32:07.680 loses its independence? What does that mean for 00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:10.759 the American people? And if you would each just 00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:13.920 give me, you know, your own quick thought on 00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:16.279 what that means to you, what this means to the 00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:21.099 American people, I would be grateful. Okay, I'll 00:32:21.099 --> 00:32:23.680 give it a shot here. I think I mentioned earlier 00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:26.960 that the FBI has this almost mythical reputation 00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:30.099 as the world's premier law enforcement agency. 00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:33.180 And I think it's a well -earned reputation. We 00:32:33.180 --> 00:32:35.880 hire the best people, the most qualified. They 00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:39.160 get very well trained. And a lot of it is training 00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:42.559 how we follow the rules. And it all goes back 00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:45.160 to the Constitution. We understand our authorities 00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:47.559 and the limits of our authorities. And we play 00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:50.680 by the rules. So an apolitical and independent 00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:54.579 FBI is vital to justice, democracy, and national 00:32:54.579 --> 00:32:58.660 security. I mean, the integrity and effectiveness 00:32:58.660 --> 00:33:01.660 and reputation depend on absolute independence. 00:33:02.259 --> 00:33:06.380 And I think that assures the American public 00:33:06.380 --> 00:33:10.000 that all Americans, all people are treated equally 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:15.339 and upholds the Constitution. And that is essential 00:33:15.339 --> 00:33:18.740 to our credibility. We must remain apolitical 00:33:18.740 --> 00:33:22.319 and be seen that way. Absolutely. Well said, 00:33:22.420 --> 00:33:26.000 Mark. Just to build off of what Mark said, I 00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:31.539 think I echo that, but I also emphasize that 00:33:31.539 --> 00:33:34.220 the United States is considered the premier democracy 00:33:34.220 --> 00:33:38.910 in the world, right? We have always portrayed 00:33:38.910 --> 00:33:41.990 ourselves that way. We, for good or for bad, 00:33:42.150 --> 00:33:44.630 have interacted with other countries around the 00:33:44.630 --> 00:33:47.049 world, wanting them to take on our brand of democracy. 00:33:47.730 --> 00:33:50.309 You can't have a fully functioning democracy 00:33:50.309 --> 00:33:53.910 if you don't uphold the rule of law. And when 00:33:53.910 --> 00:33:59.509 politics makes its way into the premier law enforcement 00:33:59.509 --> 00:34:02.210 organization in the United States, the FBI, you 00:34:02.210 --> 00:34:05.230 are jeopardizing the rule of law. You're jeopardizing. 00:34:06.039 --> 00:34:08.760 the Constitution that we hold so dear, and you're 00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:12.880 jeopardizing our image and the image we've projected 00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:17.639 for, this is our 250th anniversary. For 250 years, 00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:21.400 we've projected this imagery of being something 00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:25.960 to model yourself after. And rule of law has 00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:27.940 always been central to that. And the fact that 00:34:27.940 --> 00:34:30.260 people in this country should be able to have 00:34:30.260 --> 00:34:34.920 a fair trial. fair shake when it comes down to, 00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:37.739 you know, when they're being investigated or 00:34:37.739 --> 00:34:40.179 even if they're on the opposite side, if they're 00:34:40.179 --> 00:34:44.679 in trouble, they also get a fair trial and a 00:34:44.679 --> 00:34:47.659 fair opportunity to prove that they are, you 00:34:47.659 --> 00:34:50.719 know, prove that they're not guilty. So I think 00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:55.619 that that to me is super important as well. Nikki? 00:34:56.460 --> 00:35:01.380 I couldn't agree more. I think they hit it like. 00:35:01.900 --> 00:35:04.960 They're 100 % correct about what they said about 00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:07.699 the Bureau. The other thing I can only add is 00:35:07.699 --> 00:35:12.280 the trust of the people in the Bureau. I think 00:35:12.280 --> 00:35:16.840 that's just so important because without people's 00:35:16.840 --> 00:35:22.780 trust, we can't do our job. And I think we are 00:35:22.780 --> 00:35:26.880 not apolitical. People will stop trusting us. 00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:29.760 I think there were times when something happened 00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:33.260 at the state level. people would say, bring in 00:35:33.260 --> 00:35:39.860 the feds. And now I think we are losing that 00:35:39.860 --> 00:35:44.820 connection and that trust with the American people. 00:35:45.019 --> 00:35:48.699 And I think it's extremely important for us to 00:35:48.699 --> 00:35:53.300 have that to do our job. Well, and with that, 00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:58.699 thank each of you so much. You've all heard from 00:35:58.699 --> 00:36:01.510 the four of us, the careers we shared. And what 00:36:01.510 --> 00:36:04.110 you now understand is that what unites us, besides 00:36:04.110 --> 00:36:07.369 our friendship, is respect for our oath, adherence 00:36:07.369 --> 00:36:10.269 to the rule of law, and keeping politics out 00:36:10.269 --> 00:36:13.170 of the job. And that's worth defending. So I 00:36:13.170 --> 00:36:16.710 am very grateful, Mark, Nikki, and May, that 00:36:16.710 --> 00:36:20.269 you joined us tonight. Just fantastic. And thanks, 00:36:20.349 --> 00:36:23.010 everyone, for listening. If you like what you 00:36:23.010 --> 00:36:25.730 heard, please consider subscribing to the Steady 00:36:25.730 --> 00:36:28.809 State Sentinel. This is Lauren Anderson, Still 00:36:28.809 --> 00:36:34.380 Standing Watch. Thank you for listening to the 00:36:34.380 --> 00:36:37.900 Steady State Sentinel podcast. Don't miss out 00:36:37.900 --> 00:36:41.000 on more insights and exposés from America's premier 00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:44.739 global security experts. Also, subscribe to our 00:36:44.739 --> 00:36:49.360 Substack at substack .com slash at SteadyState1 00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:52.460 and follow our social media and join us right 00:36:52.460 --> 00:36:54.199 here next week for another exciting edition. 00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:57.860 The Steady State is a nonprofit organization 00:36:57.860 --> 00:37:00.840 working to sustain our democracy and national 00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:04.619 security. Join us and support our mission by 00:37:04.619 --> 00:37:07.840 visiting www .thesteadysstate .org.