WEBVTT - AI Generated 00:00:03.320 --> 00:00:05.700 The Steady State Sentinel is produced by the 00:00:05.700 --> 00:00:07.679 Steady State, a community of former national 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:09.960 security professionals who spent their careers 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:12.800 safeguarding the United States at home and abroad. 00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:20.199 Today, we continue that mission by staying true 00:00:20.199 --> 00:00:23.640 to our oaths to defend the Constitution, uphold 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:26.500 our democracy, and protect our nation's security. 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:30.260 Join our expert hosts as they interview field 00:00:30.260 --> 00:00:33.380 -tested guests whose unique experiences shed 00:00:33.380 --> 00:00:36.719 light on the crises and challenges facing our 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:53.320 nation. Hello, you're listening to the Steady 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:56.210 State Sentinel from the Steady State. I'm Jim 00:00:56.210 --> 00:00:59.229 Lawler, a former senior CIA operations officer, 00:00:59.390 --> 00:01:02.350 and I've worked some of the most sensitive counterproliferation 00:01:02.350 --> 00:01:06.569 and espionage cases at CIA. Today, we're talking 00:01:06.569 --> 00:01:08.930 with Tim Weiner. Tim is an American national 00:01:08.930 --> 00:01:12.150 security reporter and an author of six excellent 00:01:12.150 --> 00:01:15.019 books. and co -author of a seventh. He's been 00:01:15.019 --> 00:01:17.560 a winner of the Pulitzer Prize and the National 00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:20.079 Book Award, and he has covered national security 00:01:20.079 --> 00:01:23.000 for 40 years, and I really am looking forward 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:25.459 to this discussion. First, I'd just like to ask 00:01:25.459 --> 00:01:27.299 you, Tim, why did you decide to cover national 00:01:27.299 --> 00:01:31.519 security issues as a journalist? My first assignment 00:01:31.519 --> 00:01:37.519 overseas, I was 29, was the stolen election and 00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:42.489 the fall of Ferdinand Marcos. in February of 00:01:42.489 --> 00:01:46.489 86. And of course, that's 40 years ago as we 00:01:46.489 --> 00:01:49.969 speak. We didn't know it then, but we can see 00:01:49.969 --> 00:01:52.549 now that that was the beginning of the end of 00:01:52.549 --> 00:01:55.810 the Cold War, a people power revolution that 00:01:55.810 --> 00:01:58.329 overthrew a dictator supported by a superpower. 00:01:59.930 --> 00:02:04.590 Next, I went to Afghanistan. It was under Soviet 00:02:04.590 --> 00:02:08.939 domination. This was the fall of 87. Before I 00:02:08.939 --> 00:02:11.060 left, I called up the public information office 00:02:11.060 --> 00:02:15.219 at the CIA and said, hey, I'm going to Afghanistan. 00:02:15.860 --> 00:02:19.800 How about a briefing? And the fellow, Pete Ernest, 00:02:19.879 --> 00:02:23.819 later ran the spy museum. I said, oh, absolutely 00:02:23.819 --> 00:02:28.400 not, hung up. Off I went to Afghanistan. And 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:31.560 I got what I, you know, I ran with the Mujahideen, 00:02:31.699 --> 00:02:36.400 saw Stinger fired in anger against a Soviet fighter 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:39.759 jet. And I got back to Washington, hadn't been 00:02:39.759 --> 00:02:41.599 back for more than a day. The phone rings, and 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:44.280 guess who? It's my new best friend from the CIA, 00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:47.280 Peter. And he says, hey, Tim, how was your trip? 00:02:47.379 --> 00:02:49.340 And I said, it was amazing. He said, how would 00:02:49.340 --> 00:02:51.939 you like to come in for that briefing now? And 00:02:51.939 --> 00:02:56.300 I did. And I walked into CIA headquarters, and 00:02:56.300 --> 00:02:58.900 most of you know that on the left -hand wall 00:02:58.900 --> 00:03:02.680 as you walk in is the Gospel of John on 832, 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:05.330 and you shall know the truth. And the truth will 00:03:05.330 --> 00:03:07.210 make you free. And at that point, I was hooked. 00:03:08.009 --> 00:03:11.349 I decided I was going to try and cover CIA like 00:03:11.349 --> 00:03:13.909 I had covered the cops or the courts when I was 00:03:13.909 --> 00:03:17.789 a cub reporter. So you've covered these national 00:03:17.789 --> 00:03:20.590 security issues for four decades, as you've said. 00:03:20.750 --> 00:03:23.449 How's the current national security posture different 00:03:23.449 --> 00:03:27.919 today than in previous years? Well, the president 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:30.300 of the United States has swung a wrecking ball 00:03:30.300 --> 00:03:32.759 through the architectures of American national 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:35.139 security that were established after World War 00:03:35.139 --> 00:03:39.379 II 80 years ago to protect and defend the U .S. 00:03:39.379 --> 00:03:41.699 and its allies against, among other things, Russian 00:03:41.699 --> 00:03:45.379 imperialism. The national security establishment 00:03:45.379 --> 00:03:48.900 of the U .S. is in great disarray. It is being 00:03:48.900 --> 00:03:54.979 run by, in my opinion, amateurs and toadies. 00:03:57.020 --> 00:03:59.659 And I believe that creates a very dangerous and 00:03:59.659 --> 00:04:02.560 difficult situation for our national security. 00:04:05.020 --> 00:04:09.960 When the instruments of the orchestra are in 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:13.699 the hands of people who can't play, you get cacophony 00:04:13.699 --> 00:04:18.079 and that ain't good. I'd have to agree. In fact, 00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:21.620 your friend and mine, David Ignatius, wrote in 00:04:21.620 --> 00:04:24.680 the Washington Post a while back. that Tulsi 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:27.600 Gabbard, our current Director of National Intelligence, 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:30.120 she could do one great service to the country. 00:04:30.540 --> 00:04:33.160 And that's to help us abolish her agency, the 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:37.360 DNI. Her job is to oversee the 18 sometimes very 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:39.920 fractious intelligence units that in theory report 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:42.660 to her. But because she has no experience in 00:04:42.660 --> 00:04:45.040 intelligence before taking the job, expectations 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:48.379 were low. But she has even managed to underperform 00:04:48.379 --> 00:04:51.500 those expectations. Would you care to comment 00:04:51.500 --> 00:04:55.220 on David's analysis here? Well, David Ignatius, 00:04:55.240 --> 00:04:58.839 being a polite. man a gentleman uh uh didn't 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:02.519 say what i think is obvious to any observer of 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:09.180 uh the national security establishment uh and 00:05:09.180 --> 00:05:16.040 that is that kelsey gabbard uh is a uh crackpot 00:05:16.040 --> 00:05:21.439 uh a conspiracy theorist uh and a danger to herself 00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:25.509 and others uh she's now um become the pointed 00:05:25.509 --> 00:05:29.810 spear of Donald Trump's conspiracy theory that 00:05:29.810 --> 00:05:33.649 the 2020 election was stolen from him, there 00:05:33.649 --> 00:05:38.050 is no possible justification for a national security 00:05:38.050 --> 00:05:41.730 or intelligence officer to be meddling in American 00:05:41.730 --> 00:05:45.750 elections. She's a threat to our democracy. Sometimes 00:05:45.750 --> 00:05:49.790 I wonder if it's a choice between her or Laura 00:05:49.790 --> 00:05:53.910 Loomer, who would be worse? But I won't comment 00:05:53.910 --> 00:05:57.730 on that. I've always had the impression in years 00:05:57.730 --> 00:06:00.670 past that the FBI had a lot of positive press 00:06:00.670 --> 00:06:03.230 and the CIA a heck of a lot of negative press. 00:06:03.410 --> 00:06:05.829 But today it seems to be a toss -up or even the 00:06:05.829 --> 00:06:08.350 opposite. What do you think has changed? Well, 00:06:08.470 --> 00:06:13.350 one thing that's changed is that you have another 00:06:13.350 --> 00:06:16.730 conspiracy theorist, the right -wing podcaster 00:06:16.730 --> 00:06:20.389 Kash Patel running the FBI, and at Donald Trump's 00:06:20.389 --> 00:06:28.029 behest, damaging or even dismantling the national 00:06:28.029 --> 00:06:30.870 security and intelligence divisions of the bureau. 00:06:31.069 --> 00:06:34.430 He's doing this because Trump believes that those 00:06:34.430 --> 00:06:37.290 people who are some of our foremost experts in 00:06:37.290 --> 00:06:41.670 national security and counterintelligence are 00:06:41.670 --> 00:06:44.990 deep state agents who are trying to overthrow 00:06:44.990 --> 00:06:51.199 him at the FBI and at CIA. At Trump's behest, 00:06:51.220 --> 00:06:55.000 there is an ideological purge going on. And if 00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:57.779 you are not a Trump loyalist, you're going to 00:06:57.779 --> 00:07:00.980 be out of a job. I think that's a pretty good 00:07:00.980 --> 00:07:03.660 assessment, Tim. Let's turn to some foreign affairs. 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:07.040 I know certainly Iran has been in the headlines 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:10.399 lately. What should our U .S. intelligence community 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:13.139 be doing about the unrest in Iran? Should we 00:07:13.139 --> 00:07:16.160 just observe from the sidelines and shout encouragement? 00:07:16.750 --> 00:07:18.730 What do you think we should be doing? If you 00:07:18.730 --> 00:07:22.029 were the director of CIA, what would you be urging 00:07:22.029 --> 00:07:27.209 us to do? Well, American political warfare in 00:07:27.209 --> 00:07:30.670 Iran has, as you know, an unhappy history at 00:07:30.670 --> 00:07:34.329 the behest of Winston Churchill and Dwight Eisenhower, 00:07:34.490 --> 00:07:37.170 the CIA and British intelligence, overthrew the 00:07:37.170 --> 00:07:43.509 Shah in 1953. And that worked until it didn't 00:07:43.509 --> 00:07:48.000 work. When the Shah fell, he was supplanted by 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:52.800 the religious zealots who still run Iran. And 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:55.779 any attempt by the United States, I think, to 00:07:55.779 --> 00:07:59.500 undertake political warfare or covert action 00:07:59.500 --> 00:08:06.579 would be, how can I put this politely, counterproductive. 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:13.589 If the United States, and I doubt this, still 00:08:13.589 --> 00:08:16.089 stands as a beacon of democracy and freedom in 00:08:16.089 --> 00:08:20.110 the world. It should do what it can to support 00:08:20.110 --> 00:08:27.009 the people working for democracy in Iran among 00:08:27.009 --> 00:08:33.730 exiles. But it proceeds on two tracks, the U 00:08:33.730 --> 00:08:39.389 .S. and Iran, for decades now, including through 00:08:39.389 --> 00:08:44.009 covert action by the CIA. The United States and 00:08:44.009 --> 00:08:48.350 its allies have disrupted and in some cases dismantled 00:08:48.350 --> 00:08:52.490 the Iranian nuclear program through cyber warfare 00:08:52.490 --> 00:08:55.990 and other techniques. Dropping a bomb on its 00:08:55.990 --> 00:08:58.990 plant, that damage can be repaired. If you screw 00:08:58.990 --> 00:09:02.110 with their centrifuges, that's a harder hurdle 00:09:02.110 --> 00:09:06.049 for them to overcome. You know, I don't have 00:09:06.049 --> 00:09:08.649 any great policy prescriptions that the president 00:09:08.649 --> 00:09:12.159 administration would be likely to follow. Well, 00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:14.500 I think you nailed it when you said if the United 00:09:14.500 --> 00:09:17.960 States were still a beacon of democracy and freedom, 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:20.440 just by setting an example, we might give people 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:23.019 in Iran some hope. But I agree with you that 00:09:23.019 --> 00:09:26.440 messing in politics, if the people themselves 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:30.639 don't want to do it, it has really been a sad 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:32.879 history, something that is currently constantly 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:36.220 bitterness. And you know what? What are your 00:09:36.220 --> 00:09:38.159 thoughts about Ukraine and what should our national 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:41.860 security strategy be there? Well, Jim, as you 00:09:41.860 --> 00:09:46.299 know better than I, following the 2014 Russian 00:09:46.299 --> 00:09:49.899 attack on Ukraine in which Russians seized the 00:09:49.899 --> 00:09:53.860 Crimea and the eastern Donbass, CIA was on the 00:09:53.860 --> 00:10:01.240 ground. And CIA officers in Kyiv and in surrounding 00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:05.879 countries have been essential to the survival 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:10.690 of Ukraine as the Russians tried. to crush it 00:10:10.690 --> 00:10:17.629 um it was uh a uh an amazing coup of espionage 00:10:17.629 --> 00:10:22.549 by cia uh under the leadership uh uh the initial 00:10:22.549 --> 00:10:26.789 leadership of uh uh a ddo the clandestine services 00:10:26.789 --> 00:10:29.889 chief named tom racusan whose roots are czech 00:10:29.889 --> 00:10:32.509 and he was nine years old when russian tanks 00:10:32.509 --> 00:10:35.289 rolled into czechoslovakia to crush the prague 00:10:35.289 --> 00:10:42.870 spring in 1968 that the CIA revamped espionage 00:10:42.870 --> 00:10:46.029 against Russia, stole Vladimir Putin's war plans 00:10:46.029 --> 00:10:51.649 in 2021. And while the revelation of those plans 00:10:51.649 --> 00:10:53.690 of attack did not stop the war, they did have 00:10:53.690 --> 00:10:56.370 an immediate galvanizing effect on the nations 00:10:56.370 --> 00:11:03.110 of NATO. And CIA operations and American intelligence 00:11:03.110 --> 00:11:05.830 have been vital to Ukraine, but Ukraine cannot 00:11:05.830 --> 00:11:09.389 survive. a president who aims to strangle it. 00:11:09.769 --> 00:11:12.950 And Donald Trump has all but cut off military 00:11:12.950 --> 00:11:16.990 support to Ukraine. At one point last spring, 00:11:17.049 --> 00:11:21.269 he cut off intelligence support to Ukraine. And 00:11:21.269 --> 00:11:27.029 this is a betrayal. The United States, the president 00:11:27.029 --> 00:11:29.129 of the United States is betraying the people 00:11:29.129 --> 00:11:32.850 of Ukraine. And Jim, if Putin is allowed to keep 00:11:32.850 --> 00:11:38.679 one square kilometer of Ukraine, By conquest. 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:42.679 Do you think he's going to stop there? He's waging 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:45.440 covert war, political warfare throughout the 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:48.639 nations of Europe through sabotage, subterfuge, 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:54.139 propaganda, cyber warfare. He wants to restore 00:11:54.139 --> 00:11:58.679 the empire of Peter the Great. And with Trump 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:03.100 having damaged or destroyed our alliances across 00:12:03.100 --> 00:12:06.659 the Atlantic, the... what we used to call the 00:12:06.659 --> 00:12:10.700 free world, is in a weaker position to oppose 00:12:10.700 --> 00:12:14.320 Russian imperialism than it has been since the 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:17.399 end of World War II. This is a startling replay 00:12:17.399 --> 00:12:22.440 of 1938 in a certain part of Czechoslovakia that 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:26.279 was called the Sudetenland, and certain dictators 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:30.460 that wanted to reabsorb Germany. It's, you know, 00:12:30.460 --> 00:12:33.860 like... Mark Twain said maybe history doesn't 00:12:33.860 --> 00:12:37.419 repeat itself, but it rhymes. And I think that 00:12:37.419 --> 00:12:39.740 we're seeing that now. Let's turn to Cuba and 00:12:39.740 --> 00:12:44.779 Venezuela. Any comments on those two? My sense 00:12:44.779 --> 00:12:51.440 is that what the United States has done in seizing 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:55.460 Venezuela's oil, which seems to have been the 00:12:55.460 --> 00:13:01.240 only. tangible result of the kidnapping of Nicolas 00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:08.639 Maduro is to strangle Cuba. I think the goal 00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:11.980 of both military and covert action in Venezuela 00:13:11.980 --> 00:13:17.639 has been to cripple or topple the government 00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:20.059 of Cuba. Now, presidents since Dwight Eisenhower 00:13:20.059 --> 00:13:24.029 have tried to do that. through covert action, 00:13:24.129 --> 00:13:26.789 through all forms of political warfare, economic 00:13:26.789 --> 00:13:31.509 sanctions. And I think nothing would make Secretary 00:13:31.509 --> 00:13:35.669 of State Marco Rubio happier than to go marching 00:13:35.669 --> 00:13:40.350 into Havana, waving the American flag. Doing 00:13:40.350 --> 00:13:44.090 this through covert action or through political 00:13:44.090 --> 00:13:46.909 warfare is complicated by the fact that the Cuban 00:13:46.909 --> 00:13:49.190 intelligence service, pound for pound, is probably 00:13:49.190 --> 00:13:52.809 the best in the world. I would you know, I would 00:13:52.809 --> 00:13:55.629 agree on a I guess the only other one on a pound 00:13:55.629 --> 00:13:59.090 for pound basis might be Mossad of Israel. But 00:13:59.090 --> 00:14:02.570 they really mean they they see that as an existential 00:14:02.570 --> 00:14:05.389 threat to their regime. And it is. And so they're 00:14:05.389 --> 00:14:07.990 highly focused and they have had incredible intelligence 00:14:07.990 --> 00:14:11.289 victories against us just in the last five, six 00:14:11.289 --> 00:14:15.549 years. So what do you think about China? Well, 00:14:15.629 --> 00:14:21.100 I have a. kind of a narrow soda straw view of 00:14:21.100 --> 00:14:25.259 the problem of China and great power conflict 00:14:25.259 --> 00:14:30.899 with it. We're not doing pound for pound here. 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:33.899 We're doing volume. The Chinese intelligence 00:14:33.899 --> 00:14:37.080 service, the Ministry of State Security, is, 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:41.159 in terms of personnel, about 20 times bigger 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:45.659 than the CIA, roughly 400 ,000 people. And I 00:14:45.659 --> 00:14:49.799 think what the Chinese are doing, and they're 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:54.220 playing a long game here, is to extend the all 00:14:54.220 --> 00:14:57.320 -pervasive surveillance state that they have 00:14:57.320 --> 00:15:00.139 created in China, where there are somewhere upwards 00:15:00.139 --> 00:15:02.899 of 600 million closed -circuit TV cameras staring 00:15:02.899 --> 00:15:05.980 down at people, to extend that surveillance state 00:15:05.980 --> 00:15:10.559 into the United States. to have information dominance 00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:14.340 over the United States. As Xi said shortly after 00:15:14.340 --> 00:15:17.679 he took power 14 years ago, data is the new oil. 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:22.700 The Chinese have stolen through espionage and 00:15:22.700 --> 00:15:28.820 through cyber espionage. The personnel files 00:15:28.820 --> 00:15:30.419 of everybody who works for the United States, 00:15:30.500 --> 00:15:32.279 including everybody who's worked in the U .S. 00:15:32.299 --> 00:15:34.889 intelligence community, everybody's... everybody's 00:15:34.889 --> 00:15:37.330 health insurance records. They have penetrated 00:15:37.330 --> 00:15:44.429 all the major telecoms. And if conflict or crisis 00:15:44.429 --> 00:15:47.389 or, God forbid, war comes, they will have information 00:15:47.389 --> 00:15:50.049 dominance. They will have mapped the battlefield. 00:15:50.350 --> 00:15:52.750 They know the human terrain of the United States, 00:15:52.889 --> 00:15:56.769 and that could be an existential danger. I agree. 00:15:56.870 --> 00:15:59.429 In fact, my brother, Bill Lawler, who lives down 00:15:59.429 --> 00:16:03.309 on Gulfport, Mississippi, He told me that the 00:16:03.309 --> 00:16:05.710 Chinese are installing the latest state -of -the 00:16:05.710 --> 00:16:08.309 -art cranes at Gulfport and also on the West 00:16:08.309 --> 00:16:11.649 Coast and in a lot of our port facilities. Now, 00:16:11.669 --> 00:16:13.350 you think to yourself, now, what could go wrong 00:16:13.350 --> 00:16:16.409 if the Chinese, in fact, are installing cranes 00:16:16.409 --> 00:16:21.409 at all of our major ports? So you've been an 00:16:21.409 --> 00:16:24.710 observer now of the national security community 00:16:24.710 --> 00:16:28.179 for those four decades. often a critic and sometimes 00:16:28.179 --> 00:16:31.299 a booster. And in fact, when people accuse you 00:16:31.299 --> 00:16:34.259 of being a critic, I say, as long as the criticism 00:16:34.259 --> 00:16:38.799 is fair and well -researched, I'm perfectly willing 00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:41.919 to accept the criticism because by that, hopefully 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:44.399 we get better. But anyways, if you were in charge, 00:16:44.500 --> 00:16:46.639 what would you be doing differently to strengthen 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:49.840 our national security and also protecting our 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:54.230 civil liberties and democracy? Well, all throughout 00:16:54.230 --> 00:16:59.250 our history, there is an eternal tug of war between 00:16:59.250 --> 00:17:02.389 national security and civil liberties. We want 00:17:02.389 --> 00:17:07.569 to be safe and we want to be free. And what we 00:17:07.569 --> 00:17:12.329 are witnessing here, we're now 13, 14 months 00:17:12.329 --> 00:17:15.619 into the second Trump administration. What we 00:17:15.619 --> 00:17:18.019 are seeing is an attack on the rule of law. What 00:17:18.019 --> 00:17:20.980 we are seeing is an attack on free speech, on 00:17:20.980 --> 00:17:23.319 the free press, on the right of the people to 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:27.200 peaceably assemble. And, you know, I believe, 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:30.279 and I've been saying this for a long time now, 00:17:30.420 --> 00:17:32.759 the greatest danger to the national security 00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:35.519 of the United States today is the president of 00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:40.440 the United States. Our national security depends 00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:45.210 on extremely talented People with years of expertise 00:17:45.210 --> 00:17:49.529 who know how to look over the horizon by gathering 00:17:49.529 --> 00:17:53.589 intelligence and to, and this is a great challenge 00:17:53.589 --> 00:17:57.589 of intelligence, to anticipate surprise, to see 00:17:57.589 --> 00:18:03.029 what might be coming. You now have an ideologue 00:18:03.029 --> 00:18:07.150 in charge of the CIA, and ideology is the enemy 00:18:07.150 --> 00:18:11.609 of intelligence. You have conspiracy theorists 00:18:11.609 --> 00:18:14.720 running. the FBI, and the Directorate of National 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:17.900 Intelligence, and you have an unabashed white 00:18:17.900 --> 00:18:21.000 Christian nationalist running the Pentagon and 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:24.559 firing everybody who's a two or three or four 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:32.119 star who's not a white guy. We are engaging in 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:35.220 what the former CIA director, Bill Burns, who 00:18:35.220 --> 00:18:37.119 was the greatest diplomat of his generation, 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:41.099 in what he calls strategic self -immolation. 00:18:42.539 --> 00:18:44.480 We are not shooting ourselves in the foot. We 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:49.660 are shooting ourselves in the head. And I'll 00:18:49.660 --> 00:18:51.400 give you an example of what John Ratcliffe has 00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:54.000 done. In fact, I'll give you three at the CIA. 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:58.440 As soon as he came in, ideological purity tests 00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:03.539 were imposed on people of high rank or seeking 00:19:03.539 --> 00:19:08.619 higher rank. You had to swear allegiance to Donald 00:19:08.619 --> 00:19:13.539 Trump. in addition to the Constitution. Radcliffe 00:19:13.539 --> 00:19:18.740 then fired everyone the CIA had trained to be 00:19:18.740 --> 00:19:22.720 an operations officer and graduated from the 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:28.339 farm, the School for Spies, in 2023 and 24. He 00:19:28.339 --> 00:19:30.859 fired them because they were Biden hires. He 00:19:30.859 --> 00:19:34.240 then sent an unclassified email in their true 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:37.279 names, first name and first initial, to the White 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:40.619 House. and to Elon Musk. I guarantee you that 00:19:40.619 --> 00:19:43.599 the Chinese can read the unclassified email systems 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:45.759 of the White House, and a lot of these people 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:49.819 are training up to spy on China. Strategic self 00:19:49.819 --> 00:19:53.440 -immolation. Then he abolished the CIA's diversity 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:58.369 policies. Again, ideology. Why does the CIA have 00:19:58.369 --> 00:20:01.009 a diversity policy in hiring and has had one 00:20:01.009 --> 00:20:04.450 since the 1980s? Because it is not a great idea 00:20:04.450 --> 00:20:07.990 to send an all -white cadre of spies into China 00:20:07.990 --> 00:20:14.210 or Pakistan or Somalia. Diversity, as one of 00:20:14.210 --> 00:20:16.950 your old colleagues, Mark Polymeropoulos, has 00:20:16.950 --> 00:20:19.849 said, diversity was the CIA's superpower. It's 00:20:19.849 --> 00:20:25.400 how you don't get caught. To take these... destructive, 00:20:25.660 --> 00:20:29.099 self -destructive actions in the name of ideology 00:20:29.099 --> 00:20:34.779 is counterproductive at best and dangerous at 00:20:34.779 --> 00:20:38.160 worst. Let's imagine a miracle happening and 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:41.079 you are turned into the director of CIA, a new 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:43.880 administration, and you become, yes, yes, you, 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:46.660 Tim, you become director of CIA. What would be 00:20:46.660 --> 00:20:49.559 some of your programs, some of your moves in 00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:52.640 the first 90 to 120 days? What would you do? 00:20:53.579 --> 00:20:56.200 Well, the first thing I would do is hire back 00:20:56.200 --> 00:21:00.880 Tom Sylvester. Tom was the DDO, the chief of 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:04.500 the clandestine service. After the normal two 00:21:04.500 --> 00:21:07.380 -year stint, he was set to take the traditional 00:21:07.380 --> 00:21:12.980 last post of the DDO, the last onward assignment, 00:21:13.140 --> 00:21:17.539 which is chief of station London. Radcliffe canceled 00:21:17.539 --> 00:21:22.730 that appointment. Sylvester resigned in protest, 00:21:22.849 --> 00:21:26.289 and he canceled it, I believe, in part because 00:21:26.289 --> 00:21:29.849 Tom had given me an on -the -record interview 00:21:29.849 --> 00:21:33.289 at CIA headquarters, approved and vetted by the 00:21:33.289 --> 00:21:38.650 CIA itself, in which he spoke in the strongest 00:21:38.650 --> 00:21:42.390 possible terms about the need to support Ukraine. 00:21:43.329 --> 00:21:46.970 This ran counter. to the foreign policy of the 00:21:46.970 --> 00:21:48.730 president of the United States. And that was 00:21:48.730 --> 00:21:50.569 the end of Tom's career. So I would hire him 00:21:50.569 --> 00:21:57.210 back to teach suite. I would reverse the action 00:21:57.210 --> 00:22:01.089 of firing everybody the CIA had trained up to 00:22:01.089 --> 00:22:05.569 be an operations officer in 2023. That's mortgaging 00:22:05.569 --> 00:22:07.390 your future when you get rid of those people. 00:22:07.450 --> 00:22:10.509 And that's not a handful of people either. And 00:22:10.509 --> 00:22:15.390 finally, I would talk to the lawyers. and re 00:22:15.390 --> 00:22:19.069 -examine the wisdom of the CIA's support for 00:22:19.069 --> 00:22:21.329 what has been a campaign of murder in the Caribbean. 00:22:23.390 --> 00:22:26.390 There is a moral hazard here, as well as a legal 00:22:26.390 --> 00:22:33.609 risk. You know, blowing civilians, whether or 00:22:33.609 --> 00:22:36.150 not they are drug dealers, blowing civilians 00:22:36.150 --> 00:22:40.230 out of the water is a war crime. It is murder, 00:22:40.430 --> 00:22:44.859 and the CIA should not be party to that. It certainly 00:22:44.859 --> 00:22:47.220 brought back memories to me of the air bridge 00:22:47.220 --> 00:22:50.880 in Peru that was a disaster where a plane load 00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:53.000 of missionaries was shot down and at least two 00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:56.059 or three of them were killed. You know, mistakes 00:22:56.059 --> 00:22:59.200 happen. Well, that was a bad one. And, of course, 00:22:59.220 --> 00:23:03.500 I also got very sick when I read about the two 00:23:03.500 --> 00:23:07.220 survivors that were then destroyed by a Hellfire 00:23:07.220 --> 00:23:10.940 missile. you know, a few weeks ago. And I was 00:23:10.940 --> 00:23:13.279 thinking that's a violation, you know, of the 00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:17.539 rules of war. I thought we were better. We are 00:23:17.539 --> 00:23:19.420 better than that. We should be better than that. 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:23.960 And yet that really sickened me. Recently, I 00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:27.480 had Dr. Ruth Ben -Ghiad, who is a professor at 00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:31.039 New York University. She's an expert on authoritarianism. 00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:33.900 She wrote the book Strong Men, which I've read 00:23:33.900 --> 00:23:37.299 and which is absolutely chilling. I'd like to 00:23:37.299 --> 00:23:40.819 say I enjoyed it, but I didn't. And in that interview 00:23:40.819 --> 00:23:44.079 with her. I told Ruth, I said, I'm sure you're 00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:46.660 familiar with the doomsday clock of the Federation 00:23:46.660 --> 00:23:49.900 of American Scientists. And periodically they 00:23:49.900 --> 00:23:52.680 speculate how close to nuclear Armageddon we 00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:56.660 are. So I said, if we had an authoritarian doomsday 00:23:56.660 --> 00:23:59.460 clock, meaning how close we are to midnight with 00:23:59.460 --> 00:24:02.579 an authoritarian takeover and a collapse of democracy, 00:24:03.019 --> 00:24:05.319 where would you put the men at hand? So I'll 00:24:05.319 --> 00:24:07.900 ask you that, Tim. And I know you're a strong 00:24:07.900 --> 00:24:10.359 believer in our democracy, and this must frighten 00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:13.299 the heck out of you. One minute to midnight, 00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:18.900 Jim. That close. We are in danger of losing our 00:24:18.900 --> 00:24:24.559 democracy. We have a president who cares not 00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:28.559 a whit for the rule of law, who cares not a whit 00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:31.400 for the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, who 00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:35.359 is interested only in grabbing things or destroying 00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:39.160 things. And just as he has destroyed the east 00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:41.619 wing of the White House, which is the people's 00:24:41.619 --> 00:24:45.200 house. It's not his house. Just as he's run a 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:48.380 wrecking ball through the White House, he is 00:24:48.380 --> 00:24:50.680 running a wrecking ball through not only the 00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:52.440 architectures of American national security, 00:24:52.779 --> 00:24:57.039 but of our civil liberties, our rights as an 00:24:57.039 --> 00:25:04.940 American. And, you know, both my parents were 00:25:04.940 --> 00:25:08.839 refugees from Hitler's Europe. I do not want 00:25:08.839 --> 00:25:13.400 my daughters to grow up in a dictatorship. And 00:25:13.400 --> 00:25:19.819 I am an optimist. I believe that the tide will 00:25:19.819 --> 00:25:25.819 turn. But I want to quote Thomas Jefferson here. 00:25:25.940 --> 00:25:29.539 I tremble for my country when I reflect that 00:25:29.539 --> 00:25:32.880 God is just and that his justice cannot sleep 00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:36.500 forever. So let me ask you this. How can we turn 00:25:36.500 --> 00:25:38.680 that minute hand back? How can we, the people, 00:25:38.839 --> 00:25:41.920 we, the American people, how can we turn that 00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:44.720 minute hand back? What are you urging your friends, 00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:49.160 your daughters to do? Well, to quote Joe Hill, 00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:55.099 don't mourn organize. I think you're seeing the 00:25:55.099 --> 00:26:02.980 glimmerings of a tidal wave of... newly engaged 00:26:02.980 --> 00:26:08.980 and enraged American voters who do not like the 00:26:08.980 --> 00:26:13.140 hate that the people in power in Congress and 00:26:13.140 --> 00:26:16.640 the White House are spewing, who love their neighbors 00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:25.539 and respect them, and who believe, as the scoreboard 00:26:25.539 --> 00:26:28.000 at the Super Bowl said during halftime, that 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:31.250 love is stronger than hate. Absolutely. The only 00:26:31.250 --> 00:26:34.529 thing stronger than hate is love. That is who 00:26:34.529 --> 00:26:38.490 we are, and that's who we will be again. The 00:26:38.490 --> 00:26:40.809 one organization we didn't really discuss during 00:26:40.809 --> 00:26:43.390 this interview is that of ICE. Have you got any 00:26:43.390 --> 00:26:47.970 comments about that and their actions? I started 00:26:47.970 --> 00:26:49.809 to say that's not a national security issue, 00:26:49.890 --> 00:27:01.779 but in fact it is. thugs would murder American 00:27:01.779 --> 00:27:07.480 citizens in the street, would take American citizens 00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:12.539 and legal residents of the United States and 00:27:12.539 --> 00:27:16.819 warehouse them in what are turning into a nationwide 00:27:16.819 --> 00:27:23.819 network of concentration camps. It is an offense. 00:27:24.779 --> 00:27:28.359 against the Constitution. It is a violation of 00:27:28.359 --> 00:27:33.539 the civil liberties of people. And whether you 00:27:33.539 --> 00:27:36.180 are a citizen or whether you are an immigrant 00:27:36.180 --> 00:27:45.660 here, legally, you have inalienable rights. The 00:27:45.660 --> 00:27:49.380 courts are trying to push back, most of them. 00:27:49.779 --> 00:27:54.589 But the crisis in democracy, that has been created 00:27:54.589 --> 00:27:59.609 by the president and his minions in Congress 00:27:59.609 --> 00:28:03.009 is an existential one, and I believe we have 00:28:03.009 --> 00:28:08.289 until the November elections to turn the tide 00:28:08.289 --> 00:28:12.549 back. Are you optimistic about the November elections? 00:28:13.390 --> 00:28:20.730 I am an inveterate optimist. I will not live 00:28:20.730 --> 00:28:25.660 in despair. And I learned that from my parents. 00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:29.420 And I teach that to my daughters. We live in 00:28:29.420 --> 00:28:33.079 hope, Jim. That's all we have is hope. And when 00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:36.640 you were talking about these concentration camps 00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:40.940 and these raids, it brought back echoes of Kristallnacht 00:28:40.940 --> 00:28:45.640 back in the 30s, when the Sturmabteilung, the 00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:49.319 stormtroopers, were beating up Jewish people 00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:52.990 and anybody they didn't agree with. It's so sad. 00:28:53.309 --> 00:28:57.349 Jim, my mother lived through that. Yeah. She 00:28:57.349 --> 00:29:00.170 was born in the Jewish enclave of Nuremberg. 00:29:01.529 --> 00:29:06.109 And she fled with her family. She and her mother 00:29:06.109 --> 00:29:10.750 were trapped in Paris when Paris fell. They made 00:29:10.750 --> 00:29:13.950 it through great effort from Paris to Marseille 00:29:13.950 --> 00:29:17.089 to Casablanca. They got the second to last boat 00:29:17.089 --> 00:29:20.470 that ever crossed the Atlantic with German refugees. 00:29:22.059 --> 00:29:25.140 She was two years in a refugee camp in Havana. 00:29:25.579 --> 00:29:27.700 And then she heard about a program for young 00:29:27.700 --> 00:29:33.400 women like herself. And she was given a scholarship 00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:37.079 to Smith University, the most prestigious women's 00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:40.859 college in the country. And she became a very 00:29:40.859 --> 00:29:43.779 distinguished history professor. We live in hope. 00:29:43.859 --> 00:29:46.579 That's what America is. And I believe that's 00:29:46.579 --> 00:29:49.400 what America will be again. Absolutely. But, 00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:51.980 you know, the sad thing is, if it were if she 00:29:51.980 --> 00:29:54.599 were coming today in 2026, she probably wouldn't 00:29:54.599 --> 00:29:56.660 be admitted to the United States. That is correct. 00:29:57.799 --> 00:30:01.559 And that's tragic. Well, Tim, before we part 00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:03.940 here, I'd like to put in a an endorsement of 00:30:03.940 --> 00:30:05.779 your book, The Mission, which was published last 00:30:05.779 --> 00:30:09.680 summer. Excellent book. You know, Tim, that's 00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:13.559 his second book. on CIA exclusively. He's also 00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:15.660 written about the FBI and some other national 00:30:15.660 --> 00:30:18.640 security issues. But I heartily endorse the mission 00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:21.400 by Tim Weiner. It's available on Amazon or in 00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:23.900 your favorite bookstore. So thank you, Tim, for 00:30:23.900 --> 00:30:27.420 joining us today. If you like what you heard 00:30:27.420 --> 00:30:29.880 on today's show, please subscribe to the Steady 00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:32.160 State Sentinel wherever you get your podcasts 00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:35.140 and give us a five -star review on Google. These 00:30:35.140 --> 00:30:38.039 subscriptions and five -star reviews help us 00:30:38.039 --> 00:30:40.720 get this important content to the widest audiences 00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:43.900 possible. The Steady State Sentinel is for you, 00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:45.940 our listeners, and we want to hear from you. 00:30:46.059 --> 00:30:49.599 So stay informed, stay engaged, and join us next 00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:52.440 week for another episode of the Steady State 00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:55.240 Sentinel. For the Steady State Sentinel, I'm 00:30:55.240 --> 00:31:01.069 Jim Lawler. Still standing watch. Thank you for 00:31:01.069 --> 00:31:03.490 listening to the Steady State Sentinel podcast. 00:31:04.210 --> 00:31:07.529 Don't miss out on more insights and exposes from 00:31:07.529 --> 00:31:11.150 America's premier global security experts. Also, 00:31:11.210 --> 00:31:14.990 subscribe to our Substack at substack .com slash 00:31:14.990 --> 00:31:19.250 at SteadyState1 and follow our social media and 00:31:19.250 --> 00:31:21.269 join us right here next week for another exciting 00:31:21.269 --> 00:31:25.309 edition. The Steady State is a nonprofit organization. 00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:28.200 working to sustain our democracy and national 00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:32.019 security. Join us and support our mission by 00:31:32.019 --> 00:31:35.160 visiting www .the steady state .org.