WEBVTT - AI generated 00:00:03.320 --> 00:00:05.700 The Steady State Sentinel is produced by the 00:00:05.700 --> 00:00:07.679 Steady State, a community of former national 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:09.960 security professionals who spent their careers 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:12.800 safeguarding the United States at home and abroad. 00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:20.199 Today, we continue that mission by staying true 00:00:20.199 --> 00:00:23.640 to our oaths to defend the Constitution, uphold 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:26.500 our democracy, and protect our nation's security. 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:30.260 Join our expert hosts as they interview field 00:00:30.260 --> 00:00:33.380 -tested guests whose unique experiences shed 00:00:33.380 --> 00:00:36.719 light on the crises and challenges facing our 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:54.140 nation. I'm Peter Mina, a civil rights and federal 00:00:54.140 --> 00:00:56.320 employment law attorney, as well as a former 00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:58.420 Department of Homeland Security official who 00:00:58.420 --> 00:01:00.439 worked to integrate civil rights and civil liberties 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:02.859 protections in the department's national security 00:01:02.859 --> 00:01:05.140 programs. And you are listening to the Steady 00:01:05.140 --> 00:01:08.439 State Sentinel from the Steady State. We are 00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:11.159 facing an existential threat, growing autocracy 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:13.620 in the United States. The Steady State Sentinel 00:01:13.620 --> 00:01:15.599 is a place where we and our distinguished guests 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:18.400 use our national security expertise to discuss 00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:20.819 and analyze the decisions and acts of this administration. 00:01:21.849 --> 00:01:23.989 that feed that autocratic slide and threaten 00:01:23.989 --> 00:01:25.670 to supplant the pillars of our constitutional 00:01:25.670 --> 00:01:29.430 democracy. Today, we're talking with two distinguished 00:01:29.430 --> 00:01:31.890 guests, Bill Braniff, the executive director 00:01:31.890 --> 00:01:34.469 of the Polarization and Extremism Research and 00:01:34.469 --> 00:01:36.810 Innovation Lab, or PERIL, at American University, 00:01:37.030 --> 00:01:39.769 and a former director of the Center for Prevention 00:01:39.769 --> 00:01:41.810 Programs and Partnerships of the Department of 00:01:41.810 --> 00:01:45.090 Homeland Security. and Dexter Ingram, a former 00:01:45.090 --> 00:01:47.129 director of the State Department's Office of 00:01:47.129 --> 00:01:49.709 Countering Violent Extremism and former director 00:01:49.709 --> 00:01:52.170 of the Office of Preventing Weapons of Mass Destruction 00:01:52.170 --> 00:01:54.969 Terrorism, as well as the founder of InNetwork, 00:01:55.150 --> 00:01:57.730 a nonprofit aiming at guiding young minds aged 00:01:57.730 --> 00:02:01.010 13 to 26 towards fulfilling careers in national 00:02:01.010 --> 00:02:03.849 security. I'll be talking to them about the risk 00:02:03.849 --> 00:02:06.129 they see for radicalization, domestic terrorism, 00:02:06.230 --> 00:02:08.349 and the current political landscape, and what 00:02:08.349 --> 00:02:10.490 those risks mean for the future of democracy 00:02:10.490 --> 00:02:12.990 or a possible slide towards authoritarianism. 00:02:13.449 --> 00:02:17.110 Welcome to the program, Bill Dexter. Thanks for 00:02:17.110 --> 00:02:20.490 having us. Absolutely. Happy to be here. Great. 00:02:20.550 --> 00:02:23.409 So why don't we start with a little bit of your 00:02:23.409 --> 00:02:25.789 origin stories? And Bill, why don't I start with 00:02:25.789 --> 00:02:28.409 you? What drew you to national security and more 00:02:28.409 --> 00:02:31.330 specifically prevention of terrorism, both here 00:02:31.330 --> 00:02:34.490 at home as well as abroad? And I know, you know, 00:02:34.509 --> 00:02:36.449 Dexter, that may be more your domain having been 00:02:36.449 --> 00:02:38.330 at State, but just kind of want to get a little 00:02:38.330 --> 00:02:42.909 bit of the how we got here. Sure. Thanks, Peter. 00:02:42.969 --> 00:02:49.199 And thanks for having us. So this is. It's fairly 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:53.139 common. I was an idealistic young person. I was 00:02:53.139 --> 00:02:56.620 curious about what I was really made of and the 00:02:56.620 --> 00:02:59.319 idea of going to West Point and finding out what 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:02.960 I was made of and also being able to serve seemed 00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:07.300 like a good idea. I had a grandfather who served 00:03:07.300 --> 00:03:10.199 in World War II with all of his brothers and 00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:15.180 grew up really in a sort of patriotic environment, 00:03:15.340 --> 00:03:20.759 I suppose. Why prevention? You know, I've actually, 00:03:20.860 --> 00:03:24.319 this is a quick anecdote, I've been in a lot 00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:26.460 of different roles in federal service. So I was 00:03:26.460 --> 00:03:29.240 a cadet, I was a U .S. Army officer, I was a 00:03:29.240 --> 00:03:31.379 GS employee at the National Nuclear Security 00:03:31.379 --> 00:03:33.919 Administration, I was a Title X U .S. Army civilian 00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:36.500 on the faculty at West Point, and then a member 00:03:36.500 --> 00:03:39.080 of the Senior Executive Service. And so I really 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:41.879 only ever wanted to be a public servant. But 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:44.919 what kind of public servant has been the journey? 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:50.860 I started off as an armor officer. I was a scout 00:03:50.860 --> 00:03:52.819 platoon leader in an armored battalion on 9 -11 00:03:52.819 --> 00:03:55.919 and needed to figure out what had just happened. 00:03:56.020 --> 00:03:57.539 So I'm very much part of the 9 -11 generation 00:03:57.539 --> 00:03:59.439 that became part of the counterterrorism community 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:01.719 and was probably a part of the counterterrorism 00:04:01.719 --> 00:04:04.360 community for a long time. But I'll be honest 00:04:04.360 --> 00:04:06.919 that, you know, 10, 11, 12 years after 9 -11, 00:04:07.020 --> 00:04:10.659 I got very frustrated that we were still trying 00:04:10.659 --> 00:04:12.840 to kill and capture our way out of the threat. 00:04:13.449 --> 00:04:15.270 recognizing intellectually that, of course, that 00:04:15.270 --> 00:04:17.370 wasn't going to work. And so I started looking 00:04:17.370 --> 00:04:19.970 for something different. How else can we try 00:04:19.970 --> 00:04:24.430 to decrease risk? And at the time I was in a 00:04:24.430 --> 00:04:26.709 leadership role at the University of Maryland's 00:04:26.709 --> 00:04:28.870 START Center, which is a terrorism research center. 00:04:29.269 --> 00:04:32.769 And I was fortunate to be on a couple of projects 00:04:32.769 --> 00:04:34.829 with other really brilliant scholars who were 00:04:34.829 --> 00:04:37.430 looking at how we can learn from fields of mental 00:04:37.430 --> 00:04:39.769 health and education about how they think about 00:04:39.769 --> 00:04:43.959 violence prevention. around 2013, 2014. So I 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:47.839 sort of stumbled into this idea of a public health 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:50.360 informed approach to targeted violence and terrorism 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:53.060 prevention through the research at start, and 00:04:53.060 --> 00:04:54.560 then was fortunate enough to be able to bring 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:58.569 that to life at DHS for a few years. Excellent. 00:04:58.569 --> 00:05:00.569 And, you know, and that's where, you know, we 00:05:00.569 --> 00:05:03.089 cross paths. So that was a real pleasure working 00:05:03.089 --> 00:05:05.329 with you. And obviously, thank you for your service. 00:05:05.670 --> 00:05:08.430 And so let me turn to Dexter. Dexter, give me 00:05:08.430 --> 00:05:10.689 a little bit of give our listeners a little bit 00:05:10.689 --> 00:05:14.589 of your origin story. Sure. You know, I saw Top 00:05:14.589 --> 00:05:17.009 Gun when I was in high school. And I was like, 00:05:17.149 --> 00:05:22.360 classic. Yes, I want to do that. And I ended 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:25.019 up, you know, going to college, getting my commission 00:05:25.019 --> 00:05:27.500 in the Navy and going to flight school, earning 00:05:27.500 --> 00:05:34.540 my wings and flying E6 Takamo missions. You know, 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:39.779 this is all in the 90s. So before 9 -11, I got 00:05:39.779 --> 00:05:42.540 out of the Navy and I was at a think tank really 00:05:42.540 --> 00:05:45.040 focusing on weapons of mass destruction because 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:49.259 I thought, you know, these are threats that are 00:05:49.259 --> 00:05:53.060 so big that, you know, Coming up with solutions 00:05:53.060 --> 00:05:57.899 afterward or mitigation afterwards is kind of 00:05:57.899 --> 00:06:01.740 just behind the curve. So that was a really fascinating 00:06:01.740 --> 00:06:06.699 piece for me. 9 -11 happened and I got a phone 00:06:06.699 --> 00:06:10.579 call to lead the terrorism science and technology 00:06:10.579 --> 00:06:13.420 policy for the brand new House Select Committee 00:06:13.420 --> 00:06:17.199 on Homeland Security. I went from the military 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:20.779 to think tank to Capitol Hill. And then I got 00:06:20.779 --> 00:06:22.680 a phone call from the State Department. They 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:24.620 were creating a team to stop terrorists from 00:06:24.620 --> 00:06:27.540 getting weapons of mass destruction. So I went 00:06:27.540 --> 00:06:31.459 there and created that team. That was really 00:06:31.459 --> 00:06:34.180 worthwhile because we had some really unique 00:06:34.180 --> 00:06:36.120 partners back then. Russia was our co -chair. 00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:42.600 We just got to do some fascinating things. And 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:46.259 from there, my counterterrorism kind of bona 00:06:46.259 --> 00:06:50.310 fides. went to Afghanistan, speak in Pashto in 00:06:50.310 --> 00:06:54.170 Helmand Province, came back, worked at the FBI 00:06:54.170 --> 00:06:57.370 for a bit. Then I spent some time at Interpol, 00:06:57.470 --> 00:06:59.629 three years kind of running their counterterrorism 00:06:59.629 --> 00:07:03.350 team, focusing on defeating ISIS. Came back, 00:07:03.370 --> 00:07:05.269 led the Defeat ISIS team at the State Department. 00:07:05.850 --> 00:07:09.790 And during this process, there was so much just 00:07:09.790 --> 00:07:12.769 happening in the U .S. You know, we'd come out 00:07:12.769 --> 00:07:15.509 of COVID. We saw a lot. people spending time 00:07:15.509 --> 00:07:20.110 online. We saw this polarization when it came 00:07:20.110 --> 00:07:25.970 to just, I guess, a lot of things that were being 00:07:25.970 --> 00:07:28.230 fed that could be misinformation or disinformation. 00:07:28.589 --> 00:07:30.610 And I was taking that personally. I'm a dad. 00:07:30.790 --> 00:07:36.410 I have two young boys. I'm a Black man. And when 00:07:36.410 --> 00:07:39.449 the Office of Countering Violent Extremism had 00:07:39.449 --> 00:07:43.139 an opening for a new director, I applied for 00:07:43.139 --> 00:07:46.019 it and I got it. And for me, it was one of the, 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:50.680 if not the most personally satisfying and professionally 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:54.459 satisfying positions because you got to really 00:07:54.459 --> 00:07:58.000 focus on learning a lot about the different groups, 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:00.899 both domestically and internationally. But I 00:08:00.899 --> 00:08:09.709 think that looking at ways to prevent. And these 00:08:09.709 --> 00:08:14.089 acts of violent extremism was something just 00:08:14.089 --> 00:08:17.050 very unique and it was very challenging. I got 00:08:17.050 --> 00:08:19.129 to work with Bill over at Homeland Security, 00:08:19.470 --> 00:08:21.230 got to work a lot with the White House, work 00:08:21.230 --> 00:08:24.350 a lot with our international partners. So that's 00:08:24.350 --> 00:08:27.730 been my journey. Excellent. And so actually, 00:08:27.870 --> 00:08:31.410 given both of your extensive service, and I should 00:08:31.410 --> 00:08:34.649 start with thank you, you both have done tremendous 00:08:34.649 --> 00:08:37.879 service for this country. How have you seen that 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:40.179 government service or government experience, 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:42.840 particularly in the prevention space, translate 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:45.200 into your work, either in the private sector 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:47.399 or, Bill, I know you spent a fair amount of time 00:08:47.399 --> 00:08:49.879 and you currently are in academia. How has that 00:08:49.879 --> 00:08:56.259 time in government helped you? For me, I will 00:08:56.259 --> 00:09:00.620 say that a lot of. A lot of the things that I 00:09:00.620 --> 00:09:03.080 did overseas, whether it's in Afghanistan working 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:06.179 with tribal elders, you realize that the community 00:09:06.179 --> 00:09:09.059 and those personal touches and understanding 00:09:09.059 --> 00:09:12.940 the specifics matter. And in my local community 00:09:12.940 --> 00:09:15.679 back in the U .S., I came back and I was PTA 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:18.500 president and involved with like creating farmers 00:09:18.500 --> 00:09:20.799 markets and those kind of things. And there was 00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:25.129 so much commonality there. I really was focused 00:09:25.129 --> 00:09:27.809 on youth radicalization. You know, so many young 00:09:27.809 --> 00:09:32.309 people between the ages of 15 to 24 are radicalized, 00:09:32.370 --> 00:09:35.029 whether it's ISIS, whether it's neo -Nazis, or 00:09:35.029 --> 00:09:37.269 whether it's aspects of the manosphere, like 00:09:37.269 --> 00:09:41.409 incels, you know, and committing violence. So 00:09:41.409 --> 00:09:43.470 kind of talking with the community, talking with 00:09:43.470 --> 00:09:45.509 teachers, talking with other parents, there was 00:09:45.509 --> 00:09:48.129 just kind of a natural flow there, especially 00:09:48.129 --> 00:09:51.830 after leaving the government. Excellent. How 00:09:51.830 --> 00:09:55.909 about you, Bill? So many ways to think about 00:09:55.909 --> 00:10:00.370 that question. One note is that I've had a lot 00:10:00.370 --> 00:10:03.450 of similar jobs, whether I was adjacent to government 00:10:03.450 --> 00:10:05.909 at a research center like the Combatant Terrorism 00:10:05.909 --> 00:10:07.950 Center at West Point or START at the University 00:10:07.950 --> 00:10:10.210 of Maryland or now PERIL at American University, 00:10:10.389 --> 00:10:14.789 or on the other side of the fence in a practitioner 00:10:14.789 --> 00:10:20.730 job, relying on research and evidence to make 00:10:20.730 --> 00:10:23.820 informed decisions. I've always sort of straddled 00:10:23.820 --> 00:10:26.700 the fence professionally between the intellectual 00:10:26.700 --> 00:10:29.600 academic community and the practitioner community. 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:32.720 And that's just been such an exciting and just 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:35.759 a cool place to be because you're sort of translating 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:39.299 back and forth between the research world and 00:10:39.299 --> 00:10:41.960 the real world. And trying to create evidence 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:45.259 based practice that best serves the American 00:10:45.259 --> 00:10:48.080 people and best mitigates risk. And so, you know, 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:50.299 interestingly enough, I think that even my jobs 00:10:50.299 --> 00:10:52.360 in academia have been public service jobs. My 00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:55.139 jobs in government have been very intellectually 00:10:55.139 --> 00:10:58.779 rigorous and academic. And that to me is very 00:10:58.779 --> 00:11:04.419 satisfying. Military service teaches you a heck 00:11:04.419 --> 00:11:08.100 of a lot about the importance of. diversity, 00:11:08.259 --> 00:11:11.340 the importance of being able to navigate uncertainty. 00:11:12.600 --> 00:11:15.940 I think I'm very confident navigating uncertainty 00:11:15.940 --> 00:11:18.580 and still being able to sort of make decisions 00:11:18.580 --> 00:11:22.620 and move forward. Whereas I think a lot of folks 00:11:22.620 --> 00:11:27.320 who haven't been in uniform or in, you know, 00:11:27.320 --> 00:11:29.500 intelligence -led law enforcement where you're 00:11:29.500 --> 00:11:33.259 making your best informed judgment in a given 00:11:33.259 --> 00:11:35.399 moment, but you don't have perfect information. 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:39.039 You don't have... clarity. You don't know exactly 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:42.220 what the future has in store. There is inherent 00:11:42.220 --> 00:11:44.559 risk in the things you do and the things you 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:47.600 don't do. And that kind of gives you a little 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:50.659 bit more comfort in leadership roles, trying 00:11:50.659 --> 00:11:52.720 to lead organizations through uncertain times 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:55.720 outside of government. And I think that's perhaps 00:11:55.720 --> 00:12:01.389 the thing that's most valuable to me. The other 00:12:01.389 --> 00:12:04.210 thing I'll say is that I've been at research 00:12:04.210 --> 00:12:05.830 centers, three different, I think, really elite 00:12:05.830 --> 00:12:08.389 research centers surrounded by brilliant, brilliant 00:12:08.389 --> 00:12:12.070 academics. And as brilliant and elite as those 00:12:12.070 --> 00:12:16.190 organizations have been, the government organizations 00:12:16.190 --> 00:12:18.529 that I've been a part of have been equally inspiring. 00:12:18.750 --> 00:12:23.149 The people have been equally... expert and competent 00:12:23.149 --> 00:12:26.649 and impressive with incredible backgrounds. And 00:12:26.649 --> 00:12:28.370 so I think that one thing people maybe don't 00:12:28.370 --> 00:12:30.330 understand outside of the government is just 00:12:30.330 --> 00:12:33.990 how competitive and high performing our public 00:12:33.990 --> 00:12:36.690 servants are. And I think that's one of the casualties 00:12:36.690 --> 00:12:40.490 of what's happened over the last year is that 00:12:40.490 --> 00:12:43.629 we've allowed public service to be vilified when 00:12:43.629 --> 00:12:48.120 in reality, these are competitive roles. filled 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:50.279 by highly competent, highly qualified people 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:54.120 who should make America proud. I couldn't agree 00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:58.659 with you more. I think public service is the 00:12:58.659 --> 00:13:02.259 highest profession there could be, and it requires 00:13:02.259 --> 00:13:05.659 the best and the brightest. So we've been talking 00:13:05.659 --> 00:13:08.460 a lot about the terms prevention. We've talked 00:13:08.460 --> 00:13:12.500 about radicalization. The three of us have sort 00:13:12.500 --> 00:13:14.759 of been in this world for some time, but for 00:13:14.759 --> 00:13:17.659 your listener out there, that, you know, for 00:13:17.659 --> 00:13:19.460 whom this might be the first time they're, you 00:13:19.460 --> 00:13:21.279 know, kind of really engaging with these topics. 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:23.539 You know, Bill, let me start with you. Could 00:13:23.539 --> 00:13:25.480 you just kind of give, you know, the Reader's 00:13:25.480 --> 00:13:27.700 Digest version of, like, how would you describe 00:13:27.700 --> 00:13:30.399 prevention? And maybe, you know, in that context, 00:13:30.620 --> 00:13:35.259 what does radicalization mean? Sure. Look, I 00:13:35.259 --> 00:13:37.279 think there are three legs to the risk reduction 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:43.070 stool. I can engage in intelligence -led... military 00:13:43.070 --> 00:13:46.269 and law enforcement disruptions of already mobilizing 00:13:46.269 --> 00:13:51.730 bad guys. I can engage in physical security anti 00:13:51.730 --> 00:13:54.269 -terrorism measures to decrease the vulnerability 00:13:54.269 --> 00:13:57.309 of targets or to deflect violence away from high 00:13:57.309 --> 00:14:00.289 priority targets to low priority targets. Or 00:14:00.289 --> 00:14:04.149 thirdly, I could prevent individuals from ever 00:14:04.149 --> 00:14:05.909 getting to the point where they want to mobilize 00:14:05.909 --> 00:14:08.230 to violence in the first place. And that's what 00:14:08.230 --> 00:14:12.149 prevention is. A series of upstream programs 00:14:12.149 --> 00:14:15.389 designed to decrease the likelihood that someone 00:14:15.389 --> 00:14:20.350 gravitates towards violence. And it, as a result, 00:14:20.470 --> 00:14:24.610 really opens the aperture for who can be engaged 00:14:24.610 --> 00:14:27.070 in prevention. Parents can be engaged in prevention. 00:14:27.330 --> 00:14:31.370 Educators can be engaged in prevention. HR specialists 00:14:31.370 --> 00:14:34.649 at a workplace can be engaged in prevention. 00:14:36.090 --> 00:14:40.559 You know, schools. of course, are massively important. 00:14:40.960 --> 00:14:46.559 And so the way we applied, the way we thought 00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:48.820 about prevention over the last several years 00:14:48.820 --> 00:14:51.039 at the Department of Homeland Security is that 00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:55.320 we basically adopted 30 plus years of evidence 00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:58.659 and practice from the public health violence 00:14:58.659 --> 00:15:01.419 prevention community. So briefly, we've been 00:15:01.419 --> 00:15:03.559 doing violence prevention and injury prevention 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:06.539 as it relates to suicide, violence against children. 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:09.220 intimate partner violence. We've been doing that 00:15:09.220 --> 00:15:11.399 professionally in the United States for over 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:14.059 three decades. And we know a lot about what works 00:15:14.059 --> 00:15:18.179 to decrease the risk factors for violence in 00:15:18.179 --> 00:15:20.580 someone's life and to increase the protective 00:15:20.580 --> 00:15:23.720 factors that mitigate against the likelihood 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:26.960 of violence in someone's life. But we never bothered 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:31.179 to those professionals, hey, do you think it 00:15:31.179 --> 00:15:33.740 would work with hate crime? Do you think it would 00:15:33.740 --> 00:15:36.539 work for someone who winds up joining a domestic? 00:15:36.970 --> 00:15:38.830 terrorist organization? Do you think it would 00:15:38.830 --> 00:15:41.409 work to prevent the next school shooter that's 00:15:41.409 --> 00:15:43.789 motivated by an individual grievance? And so 00:15:43.789 --> 00:15:45.309 what we did is we sort of picked up that domain 00:15:45.309 --> 00:15:47.889 of knowledge and put it down around targeted 00:15:47.889 --> 00:15:50.889 violence, premeditated violence. And sure enough, 00:15:51.009 --> 00:15:53.889 we found that it's really effective. If you can 00:15:53.889 --> 00:15:57.210 do early interventions, increase risk factors 00:15:57.210 --> 00:15:59.190 for violence, increase protective factors that 00:15:59.190 --> 00:16:01.669 suffer against violence with these multidisciplinary 00:16:01.669 --> 00:16:03.690 interventions, very similar to what you do for 00:16:03.690 --> 00:16:06.600 a suicide intervention. you can absolutely decrease 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:08.740 the number of people who gravitate towards violence, 00:16:08.820 --> 00:16:11.440 who go all the way down that rabbit hole. And 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:16.220 it was incredibly, incredibly rewarding to implement 00:16:16.220 --> 00:16:20.059 these programs through state and local partners 00:16:20.059 --> 00:16:23.179 while I was at DHS. And to just give you one 00:16:23.179 --> 00:16:25.419 data point, because I think it's important for 00:16:25.419 --> 00:16:28.820 people to understand exactly how real this is. 00:16:29.769 --> 00:16:34.309 Through our grant program, we funded 1 ,172 interventions 00:16:34.309 --> 00:16:38.769 for an average cost of $6 ,900 per intervention. 00:16:39.309 --> 00:16:44.389 And we were 1 ,172 to zero in terms of violent 00:16:44.389 --> 00:16:46.789 outcomes. These were individuals who had made 00:16:46.789 --> 00:16:48.769 threats of school shootings. These were individuals 00:16:48.769 --> 00:16:52.470 who were stalking Congress, congressional leaders. 00:16:52.769 --> 00:16:56.450 These were people who had assaulted other individuals. 00:16:57.179 --> 00:17:00.200 or who were fixating on a school shooting or 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:02.519 a previous attacker. These were real threats, 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:08.359 and we were able to do interventions that averted 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:11.079 millions of dollars of criminal justice costs, 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:14.500 like investigations and incarcerations, and tens, 00:17:14.539 --> 00:17:17.480 if not hundreds of millions of dollars of societal 00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:20.119 costs associated with violence, right? These 00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:22.759 are very, very costly incidents when they occur. 00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:27.299 1 ,172 and zero. So prevention is possible. We 00:17:27.299 --> 00:17:28.839 know how to do it. We just need to invest in 00:17:28.839 --> 00:17:33.480 it. That's incredibly powerful. Dexter, anything 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:36.220 you want to add there, given your vast expertise, 00:17:36.299 --> 00:17:38.559 and I know you're coming at it from a slightly 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:43.980 different perspective. Yeah. Prevention is something 00:17:43.980 --> 00:17:46.920 that I think is extremely important, right? This 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:51.190 is vital. Oftentimes, when we work with partners 00:17:51.190 --> 00:17:53.329 overseas, prevention is something that's hard 00:17:53.329 --> 00:17:57.950 to measure. Bill domestically had grant programs, 00:17:58.049 --> 00:18:00.670 and he worked with people that were highly at 00:18:00.670 --> 00:18:04.450 risk and did a wonderful job. Internationally, 00:18:04.450 --> 00:18:07.769 we have a number of programs and organizations 00:18:07.769 --> 00:18:14.190 that do great work, but as certain leaders kind 00:18:14.190 --> 00:18:16.640 of say, okay, show me the numbers. We can talk 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:18.880 about the money we spent, how localized it was, 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:22.400 where it was in the world, and how nothing happened, 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:25.400 meaning there is no violent extremism that came 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:28.460 out of these programs. But they'll ask, well, 00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:31.720 is that because of your programming or not? And 00:18:31.720 --> 00:18:35.440 that's where the rub is sometimes. I've seen 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:37.400 that with both administrations, to be honest. 00:18:37.539 --> 00:18:44.609 And I will say that as we... As we look at key 00:18:44.609 --> 00:18:47.650 program, I remember a program specifically focused 00:18:47.650 --> 00:18:51.049 on children in Syria. And at one point we asked 00:18:51.049 --> 00:18:54.089 them, you know, how many of you see violence 00:18:54.089 --> 00:18:58.109 as a way or a solution to solving problems? And 00:18:58.109 --> 00:19:00.609 about 75 percent of the children said, yeah, 00:19:00.650 --> 00:19:03.650 violence is a way that we. and solve a problem 00:19:03.650 --> 00:19:05.490 and after the programming and this is pretty 00:19:05.490 --> 00:19:07.950 simple program it's age appropriate it's kind 00:19:07.950 --> 00:19:10.049 of like pbs programming to a certain extent but 00:19:10.049 --> 00:19:12.950 really focused on the issues and they would come 00:19:12.950 --> 00:19:16.430 back and about 30 would say that so that's measurable 00:19:16.430 --> 00:19:19.730 right that cuts it in half and these are really 00:19:19.730 --> 00:19:23.109 simple straightforward type things that make 00:19:23.109 --> 00:19:26.329 big differences so much of this is at the community 00:19:26.329 --> 00:19:29.730 level at the local level these aren't necessarily 00:19:29.730 --> 00:19:34.059 huge national programs When you look at preventing 00:19:34.059 --> 00:19:37.839 terrorism or violent extremism, this is something 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:41.319 the U .S. can't do alone. It's like climate change. 00:19:41.579 --> 00:19:43.660 You know, you've got to have partners. You've 00:19:43.660 --> 00:19:46.640 got to have these coalitions, which are super 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:49.339 important. And everybody brings some different 00:19:49.339 --> 00:19:52.440 expertise to the same table. I was fortunate 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:57.009 enough to have a team that... also focused on 00:19:57.009 --> 00:19:59.109 the subnational level of governance, meaning 00:19:59.109 --> 00:20:02.789 like mayors. And when mayors talk, they're really 00:20:02.789 --> 00:20:06.309 focused on outcomes. There's less politics, less 00:20:06.309 --> 00:20:09.349 international kind of back and forth. They find 00:20:09.349 --> 00:20:12.990 so much more commonality. It could be mayors 00:20:12.990 --> 00:20:15.890 that have had huge recent influx of immigrants 00:20:15.890 --> 00:20:21.329 and the local response to that initially. was 00:20:21.329 --> 00:20:23.910 fear could be hatred it could be looking at them 00:20:23.910 --> 00:20:27.230 as as others um but then kind of working through 00:20:27.230 --> 00:20:30.089 that and sharing uh success stories and solutions 00:20:30.089 --> 00:20:33.910 with other mayors whether it's in the us or ukraine 00:20:33.910 --> 00:20:38.809 or you know anywhere in europe or asia we've 00:20:38.809 --> 00:20:42.109 seen a lot of a lot of success so i'm a huge 00:20:42.109 --> 00:20:46.990 fan of the prevention piece for me you know looking 00:20:46.990 --> 00:20:52.279 at um As they say, eradicating hate, stopping 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:55.319 hatred, that fear of others is at the core of 00:20:55.319 --> 00:21:01.460 it for me. We see so many people that don't experience 00:21:01.460 --> 00:21:05.579 others at a level. And Bill's an academic. I 00:21:05.579 --> 00:21:09.160 really am like just that people person who connects 00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:12.319 with our partners overseas and domestically and 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:15.779 Bill does too. But I will say that as you kind 00:21:15.779 --> 00:21:19.309 of get to know folks. whether they're Jewish 00:21:19.309 --> 00:21:21.829 or Muslim, you know, we've seen so much anti 00:21:21.829 --> 00:21:25.130 -Semitism, so much anti -Muslim hatred, the LGBTQ 00:21:25.130 --> 00:21:29.269 plus community, excuse me, LGBTQ plus community. 00:21:29.869 --> 00:21:32.609 You know, there's been so much hatred there as 00:21:32.609 --> 00:21:35.750 well, kind of talking it through and seeing young 00:21:35.750 --> 00:21:39.269 people who might even have legitimate grievances 00:21:39.269 --> 00:21:42.380 initially, you know, it's. Dating is scary in 00:21:42.380 --> 00:21:45.059 this day and age. And when you look at issues 00:21:45.059 --> 00:21:49.420 related to finances and jobs, the economy, you 00:21:49.420 --> 00:21:51.880 know, there's some issues there that we can talk 00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:56.799 about. They all go to the Internet. They all 00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:58.920 go to the Internet and they look for solutions. 00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:01.700 And those solutions normally benefit them in 00:22:01.700 --> 00:22:04.579 the first two months or so. These are positive 00:22:04.579 --> 00:22:06.200 things. They're working out. The character is 00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:09.140 getting, you know, kind of developed a little 00:22:09.140 --> 00:22:11.930 bit more. Their confidence is growing. And then 00:22:11.930 --> 00:22:14.589 the algorithm kicks in and it starts taking them 00:22:14.589 --> 00:22:19.470 down roads where it highlights others and starts 00:22:19.470 --> 00:22:21.849 blaming others for any kind of key problems. 00:22:21.990 --> 00:22:24.250 And that other could be women, it could be anything. 00:22:24.349 --> 00:22:29.390 And it takes a few folks down that road to the 00:22:29.390 --> 00:22:32.630 point where violent extremism is the outcome. 00:22:32.869 --> 00:22:36.369 And fortunately, we've seen that many times domestically 00:22:36.369 --> 00:22:39.650 and internationally. I feel like we could have 00:22:39.650 --> 00:22:41.849 a whole separate podcast on the role of social 00:22:41.849 --> 00:22:45.650 media in this space. But you're actually leading 00:22:45.650 --> 00:22:47.630 me, both of you are leading me to sort of my 00:22:47.630 --> 00:22:50.569 next question, which I apologize in advance, 00:22:50.670 --> 00:22:53.089 maybe a little bit multi -part or at least multi 00:22:53.089 --> 00:22:57.950 -contextual. So given the administration's, what 00:22:57.950 --> 00:23:00.549 I would say, inexplicable kind of de -emphasis 00:23:00.549 --> 00:23:03.269 of all the programs you both are talking about 00:23:03.269 --> 00:23:06.890 in favor of a more traditional law enforcement 00:23:06.890 --> 00:23:12.789 focused. approach, how do you see that shift 00:23:12.789 --> 00:23:16.890 as potentially, you know, making us less safe, 00:23:17.009 --> 00:23:19.769 you know, increasing the possibility of radicalization? 00:23:19.950 --> 00:23:22.890 And then, you know, thinking about that shift 00:23:22.890 --> 00:23:26.990 to law enforcement, how effective is that when 00:23:26.990 --> 00:23:29.970 you don't have a, for example, as it relates 00:23:29.970 --> 00:23:33.089 to domestic terrorism, there is no domestic terrorism 00:23:33.089 --> 00:23:35.390 statute. There isn't even an agreed upon definition 00:23:35.390 --> 00:23:39.400 of what domestic terrorism is. So maybe, Dexter, 00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:42.259 if I could start with you, how do you see kind 00:23:42.259 --> 00:23:44.859 of that landscape playing out as we're living 00:23:44.859 --> 00:23:47.240 it right now? Yeah, it's interesting because 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:50.740 if you look back at the most recent intelligence 00:23:50.740 --> 00:23:53.140 assessments, you know, over the past few years, 00:23:53.259 --> 00:23:55.779 it talked about the biggest threat domestically 00:23:55.779 --> 00:23:59.500 basically being far -right extremism. And that's 00:23:59.500 --> 00:24:02.460 something that isn't political. That's intelligence 00:24:02.460 --> 00:24:06.559 that is actually, you know, grounded in numbers 00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:13.460 and, you know, put together by experts. I know 00:24:13.460 --> 00:24:16.299 we don't talk about that anymore in this current 00:24:16.299 --> 00:24:19.740 administration. Another key issue was racially 00:24:19.740 --> 00:24:22.279 or ethnically motivated violent extremism. That's 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:26.109 basically white identity terrorism. And, again, 00:24:26.670 --> 00:24:30.309 that's not something that is even labeled in 00:24:30.309 --> 00:24:32.789 the current administration. The first Trump administration, 00:24:33.250 --> 00:24:35.650 they are the ones that came up with that terminology. 00:24:36.210 --> 00:24:39.650 You know, they were happy to have programs with 00:24:39.650 --> 00:24:42.710 Women, Peace, and Security and Remedy -related 00:24:42.710 --> 00:24:48.589 and CVE aspects of prevention. And all that's 00:24:48.589 --> 00:24:50.190 gone away. All the Women, Peace, and Security 00:24:50.190 --> 00:24:56.359 work is gone. The prevention teams that made 00:24:56.359 --> 00:24:59.579 up the U .S. government from CP3 over at DHS 00:24:59.579 --> 00:25:04.000 to the FBI's teams that focus on this to the 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.799 state departments, countering violent extremism 00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:10.440 office, as well as our global engagement center 00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:14.059 and foreign influence teams. Anything that dealt 00:25:14.059 --> 00:25:16.940 with misinformation, disinformation is basically 00:25:16.940 --> 00:25:20.880 gone now. It's not funded. I think, yeah, it 00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:23.119 was last week where the administration actually 00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:26.019 said, we're going to disengage from a number 00:25:26.019 --> 00:25:28.140 of international organizations that focus on 00:25:28.140 --> 00:25:31.900 issues related to prevention. And we created 00:25:31.900 --> 00:25:34.579 a lot of these organizations. We, you know, seeded 00:25:34.579 --> 00:25:38.779 the money for a lot of them. But luckily, you 00:25:38.779 --> 00:25:40.859 know, there are other international donors because 00:25:40.859 --> 00:25:44.059 the world does see this as a threat. And they, 00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:46.539 you know, our partners see this as important. 00:25:48.170 --> 00:25:51.710 It shouldn't be a political thing. And, you know, 00:25:51.730 --> 00:25:54.910 my fear is now that we're really lacking on the 00:25:54.910 --> 00:25:57.210 prevention front when it comes to engagement 00:25:57.210 --> 00:26:00.910 programs, offices, and expertise, you're going 00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:05.589 to see everything as a nail in the hammer, and 00:26:05.589 --> 00:26:07.809 it's everything going to be kinetic. And what 00:26:07.809 --> 00:26:10.710 else is going to happen is the grievances over 00:26:10.710 --> 00:26:12.650 the next few years are going to grow because 00:26:12.650 --> 00:26:14.769 they're not being addressed by prevention programs. 00:26:17.069 --> 00:26:19.170 two or three or four years, you're going to have 00:26:19.170 --> 00:26:22.369 a number of things happening. And the sad part 00:26:22.369 --> 00:26:24.569 about that is it's going to get politicized. 00:26:24.630 --> 00:26:26.470 You'll hear people say, well, that didn't happen 00:26:26.470 --> 00:26:29.529 under our watch. Well, what happened under the 00:26:29.529 --> 00:26:34.329 current watch is nothing. So it is going to blossom 00:26:34.329 --> 00:26:40.309 and bloom in a few years. And that, again, shouldn't 00:26:40.309 --> 00:26:46.750 be politicized. I look at the fear of ICE. and 00:26:46.750 --> 00:26:49.109 what's happening in our communities right now. 00:26:49.289 --> 00:26:52.069 You have folks at the local level that don't 00:26:52.069 --> 00:26:57.519 want to call the police when crime's been. committed, 00:26:57.660 --> 00:27:00.000 you know, if there's a medical issue, they're 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:02.319 not going to want to report that either because 00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:06.059 they are afraid. And when our communities are 00:27:06.059 --> 00:27:07.880 afraid, there's just overall less reporting. 00:27:08.140 --> 00:27:10.839 And most of the reporting that we get when it 00:27:10.839 --> 00:27:13.319 comes to crime and other issues come from our 00:27:13.319 --> 00:27:15.880 communities. So we're kind of doing the opposite 00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:20.460 of what we should. I say this not as a law enforcement 00:27:20.460 --> 00:27:22.779 expert, even though I spent three years at the 00:27:22.779 --> 00:27:24.920 FBI and three years at Interpol kind of leading 00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:33.089 teams. As I talk to my friends who literally 00:27:33.089 --> 00:27:38.490 bled ice in different years over the past five 00:27:38.490 --> 00:27:41.269 years or so, not one of them says what we're 00:27:41.269 --> 00:27:43.809 doing now is what we should be doing. They all 00:27:43.809 --> 00:27:47.109 say this is not what we should be doing. And 00:27:47.109 --> 00:27:49.049 we're doing this the wrong way if we want to 00:27:49.049 --> 00:27:51.329 accomplish certain things. And that's not political. 00:27:51.490 --> 00:27:55.940 These are former heads of ICE. It's really an 00:27:55.940 --> 00:27:58.220 interesting time for me, and it's great to be 00:27:58.220 --> 00:27:59.880 able to talk about these issues with you and 00:27:59.880 --> 00:28:03.920 Bill. Absolutely. And having come from ICE myself, 00:28:04.140 --> 00:28:05.859 though certainly not in a law enforcement capacity, 00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:09.500 I can absolutely relate to what you're saying. 00:28:09.700 --> 00:28:11.740 And ironically, you mentioned Women, Peace, and 00:28:11.740 --> 00:28:15.460 Security. Then -member of Congress Kristi Noem 00:28:15.460 --> 00:28:17.440 was actually one of the sponsors of the Women, 00:28:17.500 --> 00:28:19.619 Peace, and Security Act. And now, unfortunately, 00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:22.819 it has been discarded kind of across government. 00:28:23.549 --> 00:28:25.609 So, Bill, let me turn to you. How do you sort 00:28:25.609 --> 00:28:29.910 of see these issues? And Dex mentioned immigration. 00:28:30.089 --> 00:28:32.210 And I'm just kind of wondering, you and I were 00:28:32.210 --> 00:28:35.130 talking a little bit before we started recording 00:28:35.130 --> 00:28:38.329 sort of a little bit about, for example, you 00:28:38.329 --> 00:28:41.269 know, the public statements from ICE, Department 00:28:41.269 --> 00:28:45.049 of Labor and others on social media. How do you 00:28:45.049 --> 00:28:47.390 kind of see all of this kind of maelstrom kind 00:28:47.390 --> 00:28:52.619 of, you know? materializing and how do we respond 00:28:52.619 --> 00:28:58.599 to it in a way that's meaningful? Thanks. Let 00:28:58.599 --> 00:29:01.460 me begin to answer this question by actually 00:29:01.460 --> 00:29:04.259 addressing the last question that you posed to 00:29:04.259 --> 00:29:07.140 Dex. First, let's just look at what's actually 00:29:07.140 --> 00:29:10.000 happened as we've reduced our investment in prevention 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:13.089 of terrorism. And I would actually argue. as 00:29:13.089 --> 00:29:15.069 we've taken a lot of resources away from our 00:29:15.069 --> 00:29:17.349 law enforcement counterterrorism approaches and 00:29:17.349 --> 00:29:20.730 put them towards immigration and border security 00:29:20.730 --> 00:29:25.009 tasks instead of counterterrorism, we've seen 00:29:25.009 --> 00:29:29.210 a massive increase in attacks and credible plots 00:29:29.210 --> 00:29:32.150 in the United States from the last year of the 00:29:32.150 --> 00:29:34.369 previous administration to the first year of 00:29:34.369 --> 00:29:36.410 the current administration. And I'm talking about 00:29:36.410 --> 00:29:38.650 like a 40 % increase in attacks and credible 00:29:38.650 --> 00:29:41.950 plots in the United States. An increase in the 00:29:41.950 --> 00:29:45.230 success rate of those plots, about 55 or 54 percent 00:29:45.230 --> 00:29:49.990 of these plots succeed. 150 percent increase 00:29:49.990 --> 00:29:53.029 in fatalities in the United States from the last 00:29:53.029 --> 00:29:54.569 year of the last administration to the first 00:29:54.569 --> 00:29:56.630 year of this administration. And a 70 percent, 00:29:56.670 --> 00:29:59.410 I assume a 700 percent increase in injuries. 00:29:59.730 --> 00:30:01.970 So it turns out if you remove federal resources 00:30:01.970 --> 00:30:04.250 from these important missions, prevention and 00:30:04.250 --> 00:30:07.430 counterterrorism, the trend lines go in the wrong 00:30:07.430 --> 00:30:09.869 direction in American communities. experience 00:30:09.869 --> 00:30:15.329 more violence. So that's thing one. Thing two, 00:30:15.470 --> 00:30:20.230 if the only resources left, even if they're reduced, 00:30:20.410 --> 00:30:23.609 are law enforcement resources, and yet there's 00:30:23.609 --> 00:30:26.490 no domestic terrorism statute, where does that 00:30:26.490 --> 00:30:29.450 leave us? Excuse me, there's no punitive domestic 00:30:29.450 --> 00:30:32.789 terrorism statute that can be charged. Well, 00:30:32.849 --> 00:30:38.509 it leaves us with a... discrepancy between the 00:30:38.509 --> 00:30:41.430 average duration of a sentence of a domestic 00:30:41.430 --> 00:30:44.789 terrorist extreme perpetrator versus an international 00:30:44.789 --> 00:30:47.049 or someone inspired by a foreign domestic terrorist 00:30:47.049 --> 00:30:49.710 organization. So the average incarceration for 00:30:49.710 --> 00:30:52.750 someone inspired by ISIS or Al -Qaeda is just 00:30:52.750 --> 00:30:56.250 under 14 years. The average incarceration time 00:30:56.250 --> 00:30:59.210 for an individual who is associated with domestic 00:30:59.210 --> 00:31:03.579 terrorism is less than seven. It's just over 00:31:03.579 --> 00:31:05.779 six, excuse me, just over six years. And why 00:31:05.779 --> 00:31:07.420 is that? Well, because they're not being charged 00:31:07.420 --> 00:31:09.680 with a 20 -year material support for a terrorism 00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:12.539 offense kind of charge. They're being charged 00:31:12.539 --> 00:31:15.299 for an assault, a battery, a drug charge, an 00:31:15.299 --> 00:31:18.180 illegal firearms charge, much, much lower sentences. 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:21.299 And again, six years is the average, which means 00:31:21.299 --> 00:31:24.019 many, many sentences are one or two or three 00:31:24.019 --> 00:31:28.880 years long. And so it's really not even a... 00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:32.279 risk reduction strategy when we use law enforcement 00:31:32.279 --> 00:31:35.819 only approaches to disrupt domestic terrorism. 00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:38.220 What we're doing is we're delaying risk by, you 00:31:38.220 --> 00:31:41.099 know, a handful of years, but we're actually 00:31:41.099 --> 00:31:43.640 adding risk factors for violence to that individual. 00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:45.740 They've now been incarcerated. They have a record. 00:31:45.940 --> 00:31:47.900 It's harder for them to get a job. It's harder 00:31:47.900 --> 00:31:50.460 for them to have a positive pro -social personal 00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:53.420 relationship. It's harder for them to increase 00:31:53.420 --> 00:31:56.309 their educational attainment. It's harder for 00:31:56.309 --> 00:31:59.049 them to reintegrate into society. So they are 00:31:59.049 --> 00:32:01.589 often welcomed back into the arms of the violent 00:32:01.589 --> 00:32:05.190 extremist movement when they get out of prison. 00:32:05.390 --> 00:32:09.109 And so a law enforcement -only strategy for domestic 00:32:09.109 --> 00:32:12.890 terrorism is wildly problematic if we're actually 00:32:12.890 --> 00:32:16.230 trying to reduce the risk of recidivism, of violent 00:32:16.230 --> 00:32:19.930 offense. So that's sort of the first part of 00:32:19.930 --> 00:32:21.910 the question. What we have seen is that these 00:32:21.910 --> 00:32:23.319 counterterrorism... and prevention resources, 00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:26.119 well, prevention resources are gone domestically. 00:32:26.339 --> 00:32:30.220 CP3 does not exist. It was fully dismantled by 00:32:30.220 --> 00:32:34.839 September of this last year. What we've seen 00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:37.559 is a reallocation of counterterrorism resources 00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:41.400 to immigration, immigration enforcement. And 00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:46.759 in the backdrop of increases of ICE checkpoints 00:32:46.759 --> 00:32:52.740 and detainments in U .S. cities, is this social 00:32:52.740 --> 00:32:56.359 media feed that you mentioned, Peter, this idea 00:32:56.359 --> 00:32:58.299 that out of Department of Labor, Department of 00:32:58.299 --> 00:33:01.420 Homeland Security, and then things like ICE job 00:33:01.420 --> 00:33:06.079 advertisements, we're seeing explicitly neo -Nazi, 00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:09.359 Nazi, and white supremacist propaganda coming 00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:12.640 through official communication channels of the 00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:17.740 U .S. executive branch. That is incredibly chilling 00:33:17.740 --> 00:33:20.599 and concerning. And for those who might think 00:33:20.599 --> 00:33:25.740 that this is sensational, we're seeing posts 00:33:25.740 --> 00:33:29.900 that feature white supremacist anthems sung by 00:33:29.900 --> 00:33:32.240 the Proud Boys, like We Will Have Our Home Again. 00:33:32.680 --> 00:33:36.279 We're seeing references to a book written by 00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:38.980 a neo -Nazi who is a member of the National Alliance. 00:33:39.420 --> 00:33:42.019 The book is Which Way, Western Man, which talks 00:33:42.019 --> 00:33:45.279 about sort of the... you know, the white race 00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:49.240 needing to pick a white nationalist future. We're 00:33:49.240 --> 00:33:51.559 seeing references to the great replacement theory, 00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:54.019 this idea that there's a conspiracy to intentionally 00:33:54.019 --> 00:34:00.200 bring in immigrants to lower the level of power 00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:03.819 of sort of white Americans. Often this is an 00:34:03.819 --> 00:34:06.779 anti -Semitic conspiracy theory in which the 00:34:06.779 --> 00:34:09.099 Jewish population is orchestrating this immigration. 00:34:09.949 --> 00:34:12.909 which is why we saw incidents of violence like 00:34:12.909 --> 00:34:15.510 the Tree of Life shooting targeting the Jewish 00:34:15.510 --> 00:34:18.869 population for supporting immigration into the 00:34:18.869 --> 00:34:22.210 United States. But it's also the motivation behind 00:34:22.210 --> 00:34:24.670 the top friendly supermarket attack in Buffalo, 00:34:24.769 --> 00:34:27.690 New York, and the El Paso Walmart attack. These 00:34:27.690 --> 00:34:30.610 are some of the most lethal mass casualty attacks 00:34:30.610 --> 00:34:35.130 in U .S. history on those populations. This is, 00:34:35.130 --> 00:34:38.650 you know, not an accident. Like, you don't have 00:34:38.650 --> 00:34:44.550 songs. You don't have memes, you don't have slogans, 00:34:44.570 --> 00:34:46.989 you don't have actual references or paraphrases 00:34:46.989 --> 00:34:52.449 of Nazi quotes appearing across the executive 00:34:52.449 --> 00:34:57.769 branch of social media feeds by accident. So 00:34:57.769 --> 00:35:03.130 it's clearly indicating that what ICE is doing, 00:35:03.309 --> 00:35:06.250 this focus on immigration and border security, 00:35:06.469 --> 00:35:12.519 the reduction of... immigration from dozens and 00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:14.260 dozens and dozens of countries around the world, 00:35:14.460 --> 00:35:17.679 the attacks on DEI programs and diversity in 00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:20.699 the federal workforce and any organizations supported 00:35:20.699 --> 00:35:23.880 by the federal workforce. You add all this together 00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:28.780 and you get a really chilling racial cleansing 00:35:28.780 --> 00:35:33.019 platform. And as a former peacekeeper in the 00:35:33.019 --> 00:35:36.019 Balkans who kind of became a professional adult 00:35:36.019 --> 00:35:39.190 thinking about ethnic cleansing and... what balkanization 00:35:39.190 --> 00:35:43.889 and identity politics can do to a country to 00:35:43.889 --> 00:35:49.869 see a concerted series of efforts really intended 00:35:49.869 --> 00:35:52.349 to racially cleanse the United States is wildly 00:35:52.349 --> 00:35:56.809 chilling. Well, speaking of chilling, as important 00:35:56.809 --> 00:35:59.170 as this conversation is, I'm sure our listeners 00:35:59.170 --> 00:36:03.329 and I feel it too, it is chilling to sort of 00:36:03.329 --> 00:36:05.630 talk about the realities of what's happening 00:36:05.630 --> 00:36:10.690 out here. So sort of with that backdrop and kind 00:36:10.690 --> 00:36:12.989 of the general instability of what's happening 00:36:12.989 --> 00:36:16.369 in the country, what do you see as the possibility 00:36:16.369 --> 00:36:19.349 of foreign terrorist organizations taking advantage 00:36:19.349 --> 00:36:23.550 of this environment to radicalize people here 00:36:23.550 --> 00:36:26.269 in the United States? And again, what does that 00:36:26.269 --> 00:36:30.670 mean in terms of the overall risk of terrorism 00:36:30.670 --> 00:36:33.530 or other forms of targeted violence? Dexter, 00:36:33.590 --> 00:36:36.530 why don't I start with you? Yeah, I mean, I see 00:36:36.530 --> 00:36:39.210 it as a big opportunity. We don't name something 00:36:39.210 --> 00:36:42.190 that's a huge threat. There's a problem. When 00:36:42.190 --> 00:36:44.469 our national security strategy doesn't mention 00:36:44.469 --> 00:36:47.309 white identity terrorism, there's a huge problem. 00:36:47.590 --> 00:36:50.809 When we're doing things like, you know, trying 00:36:50.809 --> 00:36:54.909 to designate groups like Antifa, when, you know, 00:36:54.949 --> 00:36:57.630 there are bigger issues out there, I think that 00:36:57.630 --> 00:37:02.429 that's a problem. I'm just constantly amazed 00:37:02.429 --> 00:37:06.530 because what we... used to see, right, where 00:37:06.530 --> 00:37:11.429 these kind of attitudes at the local level, we 00:37:11.429 --> 00:37:13.610 call them hooligans, right? If you go to Germany 00:37:13.610 --> 00:37:16.489 or the UK and you're at a football or soccer 00:37:16.489 --> 00:37:18.949 match, you have these hooligans who are drinking 00:37:18.949 --> 00:37:22.409 too much. They have these beliefs and they act 00:37:22.409 --> 00:37:26.809 out. And we see that now becoming more culturally 00:37:26.809 --> 00:37:31.670 attuned as well as more politically, like these 00:37:31.670 --> 00:37:35.429 political parties. are popping up in europe and 00:37:35.429 --> 00:37:39.849 we've also seen you know a right -wing um focus 00:37:39.849 --> 00:37:42.650 domestically as well and it's getting more organized 00:37:42.650 --> 00:37:47.750 if you look at um folks like uh gosh look at 00:37:47.750 --> 00:37:50.809 the groipers right you look at the groipers they're 00:37:50.809 --> 00:37:53.869 that's a political movement these are neo -nazis 00:37:53.869 --> 00:37:58.710 who um They're anti -Semites, they believe in 00:37:58.710 --> 00:38:02.710 the great replacement theory, and they're sitting 00:38:02.710 --> 00:38:05.130 down and they're talking with our political leaders 00:38:05.130 --> 00:38:08.550 and having conversations in rooms they would 00:38:08.550 --> 00:38:11.309 never previously have access to. So a lot of 00:38:11.309 --> 00:38:15.110 that is becoming more culturally, quote, acceptable. 00:38:15.969 --> 00:38:19.429 We'll see people act out in different ways. Maybe 00:38:19.429 --> 00:38:21.550 it gets them fired from their job. Maybe it gets 00:38:21.550 --> 00:38:24.969 them socially isolated. But they have the right 00:38:24.969 --> 00:38:28.389 of freedom of speech, right? Where the line crosses 00:38:28.389 --> 00:38:33.550 over is where they commit violent extremism. 00:38:33.550 --> 00:38:36.590 That violent piece, that word violence is the 00:38:36.590 --> 00:38:41.889 key here. With social media, you have manifestos 00:38:41.889 --> 00:38:45.289 and information being shared in ways that never 00:38:45.289 --> 00:38:47.690 was shared previously. Before, it was like, who's 00:38:47.690 --> 00:38:50.329 in your local community? Now you can be on Discord, 00:38:50.590 --> 00:38:54.409 Roblox, or any aspect of social media and be 00:38:54.409 --> 00:38:57.409 connecting with somebody in Europe or South America, 00:38:57.610 --> 00:39:02.769 Asia, anywhere, and be a part of this group that 00:39:02.769 --> 00:39:05.909 initially starts there. you know, build a community 00:39:05.909 --> 00:39:09.710 with you and make you feel at home and have really 00:39:09.710 --> 00:39:14.070 simple solutions for you for really complex issues. 00:39:14.789 --> 00:39:18.369 And that's the beginning of the radicalization 00:39:18.369 --> 00:39:25.869 process. It's so much easier now. And as we see 00:39:25.869 --> 00:39:28.989 this develop, we can't go to social media companies 00:39:28.989 --> 00:39:32.550 and say, Take that down. What we can do is say 00:39:32.550 --> 00:39:34.630 things like this violates your terms of service. 00:39:34.889 --> 00:39:36.869 And, you know, we're going to highlight it for 00:39:36.869 --> 00:39:40.070 you. But what they do is what they do. I look 00:39:40.070 --> 00:39:43.869 at X, for instance. This isn't violent extremism, 00:39:43.909 --> 00:39:48.750 but X has had Houthis selling arms openly on 00:39:48.750 --> 00:39:52.210 their platform for years. You know, and X is 00:39:52.210 --> 00:39:54.230 making money off of these sales and the Houthis 00:39:54.230 --> 00:39:55.909 are making money. And these are verified accounts. 00:39:56.449 --> 00:40:00.739 It's it's this. process of, you know, I think 00:40:00.739 --> 00:40:03.380 now, especially the government saying, we're 00:40:03.380 --> 00:40:05.480 not going to say what's the truth and what's 00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:08.039 not the truth. That misinformation and disinformation, 00:40:08.420 --> 00:40:13.199 hey, everybody has a point that should be valued 00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:16.360 and we're not the arbitrator of that. You know, 00:40:16.420 --> 00:40:20.219 I think there are certain truths and there are 00:40:20.219 --> 00:40:23.730 certain... untruths out there. And finding ways 00:40:23.730 --> 00:40:27.550 to build trust and get people to understand that 00:40:27.550 --> 00:40:31.210 and be heard is only good for our communities 00:40:31.210 --> 00:40:34.769 and our society. So I'll leave it at there. I 00:40:34.769 --> 00:40:38.409 can go on. Thanks, Dex. And so what I'd like 00:40:38.409 --> 00:40:40.550 to do is, you know, first, Bill, I'd love for 00:40:40.550 --> 00:40:42.070 you to, you know, kind of jump in on that as 00:40:42.070 --> 00:40:45.340 well. But then My final question for both of 00:40:45.340 --> 00:40:48.780 you is, you know, kind of two part. So the first 00:40:48.780 --> 00:40:51.519 is, you know, given what you just said, Dex, 00:40:51.619 --> 00:40:53.880 and certainly just the context of the conversation 00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:56.860 we've been having. I mean, look, I'm my family's 00:40:56.860 --> 00:40:59.059 Egyptian. I'm you know, I'm brown. My kids are 00:40:59.059 --> 00:41:03.119 brown, you know, and I wonder like what given 00:41:03.119 --> 00:41:05.980 all of the threats that you both just laid out, 00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:09.800 what should we be doing? I mean, just at the 00:41:09.800 --> 00:41:12.739 basic family and community level, what do we 00:41:12.739 --> 00:41:16.269 do? And then I think sort of in that, you know, 00:41:16.269 --> 00:41:19.409 broader context, you know, Dexie mentioned, you 00:41:19.409 --> 00:41:21.889 know, obviously freedom of speech. And, you know, 00:41:21.909 --> 00:41:24.530 there's the, you know, the issuance of NSPM 7 00:41:24.530 --> 00:41:27.710 and how, you know, that is sort of fomented the 00:41:27.710 --> 00:41:30.869 sort of use of almost casually the term domestic 00:41:30.869 --> 00:41:34.760 terrorism. What does all this mean for the potential 00:41:34.760 --> 00:41:37.420 slide to authoritarianism? And sorry, I realize 00:41:37.420 --> 00:41:40.699 it's a lot in a couple of questions, but wanted 00:41:40.699 --> 00:41:44.800 to sort of bring this to a kind of a crescendo 00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:46.860 because it's a really, really important conversation 00:41:46.860 --> 00:41:49.159 and one we could certainly talk about for hours. 00:41:50.019 --> 00:41:54.599 Bill, why don't I start with you? Sure. On the 00:41:54.599 --> 00:41:56.639 question of are we more vulnerable to terrorism, 00:41:56.880 --> 00:42:01.059 there's lots of... reasons to think that the 00:42:01.059 --> 00:42:03.880 answer is yes. Not necessarily because terrorist 00:42:03.880 --> 00:42:11.139 organizations are going to capitalize on this 00:42:11.139 --> 00:42:15.599 domestic moment any more so than they would capitalize 00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:17.820 on any opportunity at any point in time. Terrorist 00:42:17.820 --> 00:42:19.340 organizations are opportunistic when they have 00:42:19.340 --> 00:42:21.920 the ability to engage in an act of violence and 00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:24.320 they think it makes sense, they'll do it. I don't 00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:27.519 know that we're changing their... necessarily. 00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:31.239 But what is 100 % happening is that we have eroded 00:42:31.239 --> 00:42:36.840 our international cooperation by removing tools 00:42:36.840 --> 00:42:42.139 like USAID, the damage that's been done to the 00:42:42.139 --> 00:42:44.000 Department of State and their ability to partner 00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:48.679 with allies overseas. Our national security pivot 00:42:48.679 --> 00:42:51.559 to the Western Hemisphere, our threats against 00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:55.840 Greenland and by extension, NATO. Like there's 00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:57.500 all sorts of things that we're doing that are 00:42:57.500 --> 00:43:02.159 decreasing the international ability to engage 00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:03.800 in international counterterrorism effectively. 00:43:03.940 --> 00:43:07.739 And that makes us more vulnerable for sure. On 00:43:07.739 --> 00:43:11.019 your second question about, you know, gosh, this 00:43:11.019 --> 00:43:13.699 is this is concerning. What do we do? Like, what 00:43:13.699 --> 00:43:16.800 do I do at home and in my community? It's really 00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:18.420 important to understand that there are so many 00:43:18.420 --> 00:43:21.539 things that we can be doing in terms of prevention 00:43:21.539 --> 00:43:25.530 of targeted violence and terrorism. The organization 00:43:25.530 --> 00:43:28.909 that I lead now focuses on primary prevention. 00:43:29.010 --> 00:43:30.949 This is upstream prevention. So this is the kind 00:43:30.949 --> 00:43:33.590 of stuff that parents and schools and faith leaders 00:43:33.590 --> 00:43:36.610 and state and local governments can be engaging 00:43:36.610 --> 00:43:39.650 in. And so I'd encourage people to look at the 00:43:39.650 --> 00:43:44.630 PERIL research website for some of those resources. 00:43:47.550 --> 00:43:49.809 It's sort of too long of a list to name, but 00:43:49.809 --> 00:43:53.070 what we have to first understand is that, you 00:43:53.070 --> 00:43:55.320 know, 80 % of school shooters tell someone they're 00:43:55.320 --> 00:43:58.699 going to do it before they do it. North of 50 00:43:58.699 --> 00:44:01.340 % of mass casualty attackers weak their intent 00:44:01.340 --> 00:44:02.960 to say that they're going to do something before 00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:05.639 they do it. We have to take that information 00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:09.159 seriously when we hear it. Ask a caring question 00:44:09.159 --> 00:44:10.820 to that person. Bill, are you thinking about 00:44:10.820 --> 00:44:13.719 hurting somebody? What's really going on? And 00:44:13.719 --> 00:44:15.619 then get that person access to someone who can 00:44:15.619 --> 00:44:18.480 help them. Targeted violence and terrorism, these 00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:21.719 things are preventable. We all have a role to 00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:25.099 play. And it's normalizing this idea of prevention, 00:44:25.320 --> 00:44:26.880 I think, is one of the most important things 00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:29.860 we can be doing, as opposed to just falling victim 00:44:29.860 --> 00:44:32.500 to the apathy and saying that, geez, this stuff 00:44:32.500 --> 00:44:34.519 is inevitable and it's ubiquitous and there's 00:44:34.519 --> 00:44:36.219 just nothing to be done about it. That is the 00:44:36.219 --> 00:44:38.679 worst thing we can be doing. Instead, what we 00:44:38.679 --> 00:44:43.119 need to do is sort of be proactive. So lots of 00:44:43.119 --> 00:44:46.019 things to offer there. And I'd love to follow 00:44:46.019 --> 00:44:47.579 on conversations with anybody who's actually 00:44:47.579 --> 00:44:49.739 interested in what are state and local prevention. 00:44:50.980 --> 00:44:53.300 opportunities. We do a lot of work with state 00:44:53.300 --> 00:44:55.619 governments and local governments and would love 00:44:55.619 --> 00:44:59.159 to continue that conversation. In terms of National 00:44:59.159 --> 00:45:04.300 Security Presidential Memo 7 and this slide towards 00:45:04.300 --> 00:45:08.619 authoritarianism, I would just encourage listeners 00:45:08.619 --> 00:45:11.260 to understand that this isn't some scary imagined 00:45:11.260 --> 00:45:16.039 future scenario. We're talking about before this 00:45:16.039 --> 00:45:21.099 winter break. The Department of Justice issuing 00:45:21.099 --> 00:45:24.539 a memo asking for a list of domestic organizations 00:45:24.539 --> 00:45:29.420 that should be investigated for promoting things 00:45:29.420 --> 00:45:34.239 like anti -traditional American values. That's 00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:36.739 a subjective term. There's no basis in law for 00:45:36.739 --> 00:45:39.159 it. There's a reason we don't have a domestic 00:45:39.159 --> 00:45:41.699 terrorist organization list. It's a wildly slippery 00:45:41.699 --> 00:45:45.119 slope towards authoritarianism and cracking down 00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:49.280 on. uh normal political rivals that that exist 00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:51.519 in a democracy and should exist in a democracy 00:45:51.519 --> 00:45:55.539 and so you know with with national security presidential 00:45:55.539 --> 00:46:00.780 memo 7 and then the follow -on doj efforts individuals 00:46:00.780 --> 00:46:02.800 need to understand that this is an existential 00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:06.820 threat to american democracy to civil society 00:46:06.820 --> 00:46:13.989 and we have to we have to speak up Next, you 00:46:13.989 --> 00:46:15.550 get the last word, and I would love to hear, 00:46:15.670 --> 00:46:17.909 you know, as I was describing my background, 00:46:18.190 --> 00:46:20.409 you mentioned you're a Black man, you've got 00:46:20.409 --> 00:46:23.690 two Black boys. What do you tell them? Yeah, 00:46:23.750 --> 00:46:26.829 I have to have tough conversations with them, 00:46:26.949 --> 00:46:29.650 you know, where their friends can go out and, 00:46:29.750 --> 00:46:33.090 you know, their parents are saying, boys will 00:46:33.090 --> 00:46:35.869 be boys, or they're just being cheeky. I'm like, 00:46:35.989 --> 00:46:39.099 you can't do that. You have to be held to a higher 00:46:39.099 --> 00:46:43.980 standard. You can be perceived as older or more 00:46:43.980 --> 00:46:46.280 of a threat than you actually are. You know, 00:46:46.300 --> 00:46:49.659 I know you're 10 and 13. You know, there have 00:46:49.659 --> 00:46:54.199 been a number of cases where I can't even get 00:46:54.199 --> 00:46:56.019 into it. I mean, there's literally thousands 00:46:56.019 --> 00:46:59.480 of cases of police being called on young black 00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:03.440 men for just kind of living their lives. And 00:47:03.440 --> 00:47:06.059 so that's that's something that's always there. 00:47:06.219 --> 00:47:08.599 I also tell them it's their superpower because 00:47:08.599 --> 00:47:12.019 they are more attuned and more alert and they're 00:47:12.019 --> 00:47:15.179 not just going la -di -da through life. They're 00:47:15.179 --> 00:47:17.280 being intentional about what they're doing and 00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:20.739 who they are. So I, you know, I kind of spin 00:47:20.739 --> 00:47:22.960 it and say that that's your superpower. You see 00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:26.119 things others don't. My boys are also very international. 00:47:26.360 --> 00:47:29.039 I mean, you know, I remember during the last 00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:31.480 Trump administration when I was at Interpol. 00:47:32.030 --> 00:47:34.789 meeting with the leadership from the White House. 00:47:34.889 --> 00:47:38.170 I met with Tom Bossert and, well, I'm not going 00:47:38.170 --> 00:47:40.650 to name my other friend, but, and they would 00:47:40.650 --> 00:47:43.429 say, you know, we're the globalists. And it was 00:47:43.429 --> 00:47:45.030 me and the Secretary General of Interpol. And 00:47:45.030 --> 00:47:47.289 I would have to explain to the Secretary General 00:47:47.289 --> 00:47:50.070 what that meant, that they believe in international 00:47:50.070 --> 00:47:52.389 cooperation and America's place in the world. 00:47:52.489 --> 00:47:56.469 Those are good things, right? When you villainize, 00:47:56.489 --> 00:47:59.809 you know, just international cooperation, and, 00:47:59.869 --> 00:48:03.250 you know, I always tell young people, Learning 00:48:03.250 --> 00:48:05.750 different languages is great. Having a passport 00:48:05.750 --> 00:48:09.610 is great. Traveling is super important. And, 00:48:09.650 --> 00:48:11.929 you know, there's different religions and there's 00:48:11.929 --> 00:48:14.369 different food. And it doesn't mean it's better 00:48:14.369 --> 00:48:16.329 or worse. It's just different. And the more you 00:48:16.329 --> 00:48:18.010 understand that, the more you'll see we have 00:48:18.010 --> 00:48:20.289 in common. Everybody wants the best for their 00:48:20.289 --> 00:48:22.730 kids, right? There's so much we have in common 00:48:22.730 --> 00:48:25.710 internationally. But we have this tendency to 00:48:25.710 --> 00:48:28.010 villainize folks. And I see that especially at 00:48:28.010 --> 00:48:30.869 the international level. That also applies when 00:48:30.869 --> 00:48:35.789 you have immigrants coming into the U .S. I personally 00:48:35.789 --> 00:48:40.429 think that within our communities, we see a lot 00:48:40.429 --> 00:48:43.869 of people kind of pushing back. We see different 00:48:43.869 --> 00:48:48.250 religious leaders kind of organizing and talking 00:48:48.250 --> 00:48:55.230 about the commonalities that we have. It is amazing 00:48:55.230 --> 00:48:59.730 to watch people like Stephen Miller. talk the 00:48:59.730 --> 00:49:03.710 way he talks. And I literally feel like I'm back 00:49:03.710 --> 00:49:07.030 in 1943. Not that I was alive then, but I'm a 00:49:07.030 --> 00:49:10.929 big student of history. It really is amazing. 00:49:12.010 --> 00:49:14.510 And a lot of times people say, you know, well, 00:49:14.610 --> 00:49:16.969 they're not coming after me right now. They're 00:49:16.969 --> 00:49:19.110 not targeting me. It's a slippery slope. It goes 00:49:19.110 --> 00:49:21.349 down all of these. It doesn't matter. You know, 00:49:21.389 --> 00:49:23.250 maybe they target the trans community or immigrant 00:49:23.250 --> 00:49:26.590 community at one point, you know, then it's. 00:49:26.909 --> 00:49:30.030 it's it's literally the door is open for anybody 00:49:30.030 --> 00:49:32.670 and you have people there's a number of youtube 00:49:32.670 --> 00:49:35.469 videos out there of people who voted for this 00:49:35.469 --> 00:49:37.949 current administration that say i never thought 00:49:37.949 --> 00:49:40.969 this would happen to me this is unfair i i didn't 00:49:40.969 --> 00:49:44.409 realize this and i think that a country should 00:49:44.409 --> 00:49:49.289 um basically you know the worth of a country 00:49:49.289 --> 00:49:52.110 the values of a country really come down to how 00:49:52.110 --> 00:49:54.869 it treats its most disenfranchised right it's 00:49:54.869 --> 00:49:57.349 poor it's sick it's children it's elderly it's 00:49:57.349 --> 00:50:00.849 immigrants and that says you know the core values 00:50:00.849 --> 00:50:03.949 of leadership and what that country stands for 00:50:03.949 --> 00:50:06.309 and i i feel like we're failing at this moment 00:50:06.309 --> 00:50:09.730 but um as i look at my nonprofit and network 00:50:09.730 --> 00:50:11.590 and all the young people that want to get involved 00:50:11.590 --> 00:50:16.349 in national security i see hope i see um smart 00:50:17.300 --> 00:50:20.579 passionate hope you know one of the chorus that 00:50:20.579 --> 00:50:22.119 i tell them all is that if you're going to be 00:50:22.119 --> 00:50:24.539 a part of the network you got to be a good human 00:50:24.539 --> 00:50:27.559 can't be a jerk can't be selfish can't be focused 00:50:27.559 --> 00:50:30.639 on yourself always focus on the mission and connecting 00:50:30.639 --> 00:50:33.219 with others and doing what you can and and that 00:50:33.219 --> 00:50:36.780 provides me hope well picking up on that hope 00:50:36.780 --> 00:50:40.500 as a child of immigrants and former feds and 00:50:40.500 --> 00:50:43.519 you know with kids of my own I hope that we can 00:50:43.519 --> 00:50:46.460 all hang on to that as we go through this really 00:50:46.460 --> 00:50:49.380 difficult period in our history. So thank you 00:50:49.380 --> 00:50:52.659 so much for joining us, Bill and Dex. Really 00:50:52.659 --> 00:50:54.579 appreciate you having here such an important 00:50:54.579 --> 00:50:58.539 conversation. Could you both just briefly tell 00:50:58.539 --> 00:51:02.320 our audience where they can find you? Go ahead, 00:51:02.360 --> 00:51:06.949 Bill. Sure. Thanks. So again, I'm the executive 00:51:06.949 --> 00:51:09.769 director at PERIL at American University, and 00:51:09.769 --> 00:51:14.070 our website is perilresearch, one word, perilresearch 00:51:14.070 --> 00:51:18.369 .com. Resources are available there. And also 00:51:18.369 --> 00:51:21.469 the editor at large for prevention at Homeland 00:51:21.469 --> 00:51:23.610 Security Today. So happy to talk to you about 00:51:23.610 --> 00:51:27.250 publishing articles to help continue the conversation 00:51:27.250 --> 00:51:30.289 on prevention, which is incredibly, incredibly 00:51:30.289 --> 00:51:34.190 important for us, given the 2 .6. incredible 00:51:34.190 --> 00:51:36.230 plots and attacks per day in the United States. 00:51:36.309 --> 00:51:38.230 We've got a lot of work to do. So we'd love to 00:51:38.230 --> 00:51:40.809 see you contribute articles and I'd love to publish 00:51:40.809 --> 00:51:44.940 them for you. Thanks. Yeah, I'm the founder of 00:51:44.940 --> 00:51:49.440 InNetwork. That's in -network .org. It's a nonprofit 00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:52.139 basically focused on getting more young people 00:51:52.139 --> 00:51:54.380 of all backgrounds into the national security 00:51:54.380 --> 00:51:58.920 world and just overall service. I'm also the 00:51:58.920 --> 00:52:02.739 author of Codename Citizen, a substack that really 00:52:02.739 --> 00:52:06.760 touches on these exact issues. I have articles 00:52:06.760 --> 00:52:08.719 coming out every Monday, do a bunch of lives. 00:52:09.420 --> 00:52:13.019 um and you know i'm available on linkedin because 00:52:13.019 --> 00:52:15.179 i'm happy to speak i just came back from ohio 00:52:15.179 --> 00:52:18.460 with over 300 police officers talking about these 00:52:18.460 --> 00:52:21.539 issues and it was good to see them start to understand 00:52:21.539 --> 00:52:25.570 it so thanks so much for having us peter Of course, 00:52:25.570 --> 00:52:28.309 of course. So if you like what you heard on today's 00:52:28.309 --> 00:52:30.349 show, please subscribe to the Steady State Sentinel 00:52:30.349 --> 00:52:32.590 wherever you get your podcasts and give us a 00:52:32.590 --> 00:52:35.210 five -star review on Google. Those subscriptions 00:52:35.210 --> 00:52:37.449 and five -star reviews help us get this important 00:52:37.449 --> 00:52:39.650 content out to the widest possible audience. 00:52:40.130 --> 00:52:42.809 The Steady State Sentinel is for you, our listeners, 00:52:43.010 --> 00:52:45.510 and we want to hear from you. Please join us 00:52:45.510 --> 00:52:47.630 for our next episode so you can stay engaged 00:52:47.630 --> 00:52:50.630 and stay informed. Remember, protecting our democracy 00:52:50.630 --> 00:52:53.489 isn't a spectator sport. This is Peter Mina for 00:52:53.489 --> 00:52:55.809 the Steady State Sentinel. Still standing watch. 00:52:59.349 --> 00:53:02.170 Thank you for listening to the Steady State Sentinel 00:53:02.170 --> 00:53:05.650 podcast. Don't miss out on more insights and 00:53:05.650 --> 00:53:08.429 exposes from America's premier global security 00:53:08.429 --> 00:53:12.559 experts. 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