WEBVTT - AI generated 00:00:03.320 --> 00:00:05.700 The Steady State Sentinel is produced by the 00:00:05.700 --> 00:00:07.679 Steady State, a community of former national 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:09.960 security professionals who spent their careers 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:12.800 safeguarding the United States at home and abroad. 00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:20.199 Today, we continue that mission by staying true 00:00:20.199 --> 00:00:23.640 to our oaths to defend the Constitution, uphold 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:26.500 our democracy, and protect our nation's security. 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:30.260 Join our expert hosts as they interview field 00:00:30.260 --> 00:00:33.380 -tested guests whose unique experiences shed 00:00:33.380 --> 00:00:36.719 light on the crises and challenges facing our 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:52.920 nation. Hello, you're listening to the Steady 00:00:52.920 --> 00:00:55.820 State Sentinel from the Steady State. I'm Jim 00:00:55.820 --> 00:00:58.820 Lawler, a former senior CIA operations officer, 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:01.679 and I've worked some of the most sensitive counterproliferation 00:01:01.679 --> 00:01:05.700 and espionage cases. Today, we're talking about 00:01:05.700 --> 00:01:08.739 authoritarianism with Dr. Ruth Ben -Ghiat and 00:01:08.739 --> 00:01:11.299 what it means for our democracy and national 00:01:11.299 --> 00:01:14.760 security. Dr. Ben -Ghiat is a professor at New 00:01:14.760 --> 00:01:17.920 York University and is a noted historian who 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:20.680 writes about fascism, authoritarian leaders, 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:25.189 propaganda, and democracy protection. She's the 00:01:25.189 --> 00:01:28.129 author of the New York Times bestseller, Strongmen, 00:01:28.250 --> 00:01:32.430 How They Rise, Why They Succeed, How They Fail, 00:01:32.590 --> 00:01:35.390 which looks at the tools of authoritarian rule 00:01:35.390 --> 00:01:39.189 and how authoritarians can be resisted. She also 00:01:39.189 --> 00:01:42.849 has a Substack newsletter and a podcast, Lucid 00:01:42.849 --> 00:01:45.310 on Threats to Democracy. We're going to insert 00:01:45.310 --> 00:01:48.730 those links in our podcast. So welcome, Ruth. 00:01:48.790 --> 00:01:52.659 And let me start off. by asking you, noting that 00:01:52.659 --> 00:01:56.140 in Strongman, by the way, which I have a copy 00:01:56.140 --> 00:02:00.459 of, I'd like to say I enjoyed it. I was fascinated 00:02:00.459 --> 00:02:04.200 by it, but it was very disturbing, very disturbing. 00:02:04.340 --> 00:02:07.060 I found myself nodding my head as I read it, 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:11.719 seeing your citations of historical parallels 00:02:11.719 --> 00:02:14.340 in the 20th century to what we're going through 00:02:14.340 --> 00:02:17.219 today in the United States of America. which 00:02:17.219 --> 00:02:19.439 up until now has been the land of the free and 00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:22.180 the home of the brave. But I'm starting to wonder 00:02:22.180 --> 00:02:25.539 about that. So you present in your book a consistent 00:02:25.539 --> 00:02:28.460 profile of authoritarian leaders in the 20th 00:02:28.460 --> 00:02:31.180 and 21st centuries, as I said, their traits, 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:34.000 their vices, their proclivities, all of these 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:36.699 things that they share. So please recount for 00:02:36.699 --> 00:02:39.280 us, for our listeners, what some of these characteristics 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:42.599 are and note whether you think our current president 00:02:42.599 --> 00:02:46.789 exhibits these. Yeah, that's a good question. 00:02:46.849 --> 00:02:51.710 And I would say that until 2016, I had been working 00:02:51.710 --> 00:02:56.129 for many years on Italian fascism and thus also 00:02:56.129 --> 00:03:01.849 a bit on Nazism and Franco, but historic fascism. 00:03:01.889 --> 00:03:06.069 And it was really observing the behavior of Donald 00:03:06.069 --> 00:03:09.830 Trump during the 2016 campaign, in particular 00:03:09.830 --> 00:03:12.590 when he said that he could stand on Fifth Avenue 00:03:12.590 --> 00:03:15.759 and shoot someone. And he wouldn't lose any followers. 00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:18.939 And then observing that just a few weeks after 00:03:18.939 --> 00:03:22.300 that was when the GOP made its approach to him 00:03:22.300 --> 00:03:27.620 through Jeff Sessions. I started writing for 00:03:27.620 --> 00:03:31.479 CNN about Trump because I realized that this 00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:34.240 was somebody who had a lot of those traits and 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:37.860 could be extremely dangerous if he were not contained. 00:03:39.419 --> 00:03:42.400 One thing that we see is that they're entirely 00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:45.840 transactional beings. And this applies to Putin, 00:03:46.020 --> 00:03:49.560 to Mobutu, to all of them, whether they're communist 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:54.740 or fascist. And everybody has a utility until 00:03:54.740 --> 00:03:58.599 they don't anymore. And because they don't have 00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:03.479 a fixed code of values, they just... do what 00:04:03.479 --> 00:04:06.300 they think serves them and their power at the 00:04:06.300 --> 00:04:09.240 moment. And so, you know, the biggest example 00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:13.020 is Hitler allies with Stalin and then Hitler 00:04:13.020 --> 00:04:16.579 invades Stalin. But there are many things. So 00:04:16.579 --> 00:04:19.839 you can't count on them. They will just always 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:23.160 do what they think is best for them. Another 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:27.060 thing is despite their bluster of the strong 00:04:27.060 --> 00:04:31.160 men, they are insecure and weak and frail people. 00:04:31.819 --> 00:04:34.480 who are actually living in fear all the time 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:38.779 of people deposing them or coming to get them. 00:04:39.019 --> 00:04:43.300 And so that's why they require loyalty by everyone 00:04:43.300 --> 00:04:46.180 around them. And one thing that Americans have 00:04:46.180 --> 00:04:49.240 had to learn, Mike Pence had to learn it, is 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:52.819 that your loyalty is earned every day. You could 00:04:52.819 --> 00:04:55.660 have years of being the most loyal, faithful 00:04:55.660 --> 00:04:58.800 person out there publicly praising the leader. 00:04:58.939 --> 00:05:02.420 And if you do one thing, That they don't like 00:05:02.420 --> 00:05:07.100 you become the enemy. And so they set up structures 00:05:07.100 --> 00:05:11.319 of that's why they hire people who are loyalists 00:05:11.319 --> 00:05:16.740 and sycophants over expertise. And and so that's 00:05:16.740 --> 00:05:20.420 another trait that they all follow. Sometimes 00:05:20.420 --> 00:05:22.980 I wonder, and of course, I'm not asking you, 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:24.740 since you're not a psych, neither a psychologist 00:05:24.740 --> 00:05:27.740 nor a psychiatrist, if this might have some. 00:05:28.189 --> 00:05:30.629 Donald Trump's problems might have something 00:05:30.629 --> 00:05:33.490 to do with a dysfunctional relationship with 00:05:33.490 --> 00:05:37.470 his father, and he's craving attention. I don't 00:05:37.470 --> 00:05:39.389 know. Again, I'm not a psychologist, and neither 00:05:39.389 --> 00:05:41.790 are you, but the thought did enter my mind as 00:05:41.790 --> 00:05:45.629 you were saying that. Yeah, many of them have 00:05:45.629 --> 00:05:49.149 damaged relationships with fathers or parents, 00:05:49.290 --> 00:05:54.319 or they were... The violent, like Mussolini was 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:57.100 very violent from an early age. He would stab 00:05:57.100 --> 00:05:59.620 people. By the time he was actually founding 00:05:59.620 --> 00:06:03.259 fascism with his black shirts, he'd stabbed people. 00:06:03.459 --> 00:06:05.800 He was a serial rapist. I mean, we're talking 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:09.620 hundreds of women, like Gaddafi. So these are 00:06:09.620 --> 00:06:14.120 very disturbed people. In Trump's case, he wanted 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:16.100 to please his father, but he actually learned 00:06:16.100 --> 00:06:18.319 a ton from his father because his father was 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:21.620 crook. who was defrauding the U .S. government 00:06:21.620 --> 00:06:25.160 out of taxes, doing all kinds of things. So he 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:27.980 learned from, Trump learned from his father that 00:06:27.980 --> 00:06:31.339 being smart means, you know, getting away with 00:06:31.339 --> 00:06:35.180 things. And his father, I think, you know, was 00:06:35.180 --> 00:06:38.360 never put in prison for his tax evasion and other 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:40.800 things. And he learned a model of business and 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:44.560 dealing with people from him and also from other 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:48.199 charming mentors such as Roy Cohn. And Roger 00:06:48.199 --> 00:06:52.199 Stone, the latter, who, along with Manafort, 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:55.000 was working for dictators, trying to throw elections 00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:58.620 for Marcos. These people have a long history 00:06:58.620 --> 00:07:01.939 of, shall we say, anti -democratic behavior, 00:07:02.899 --> 00:07:05.279 transactional behavior. And these were the mentors 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:09.899 of Trump. You've mentioned the traits of an authoritarian 00:07:09.899 --> 00:07:14.209 leader. And I confess, I'm... both horrified 00:07:14.209 --> 00:07:16.430 and fascinated with it, maybe the fascination 00:07:16.430 --> 00:07:20.329 of the abomination, like Joseph Conrad's famous 00:07:20.329 --> 00:07:22.670 line in The Heart of Darkness. But I'm even more 00:07:22.670 --> 00:07:26.290 interested in what motivates a follower. I mean, 00:07:26.310 --> 00:07:32.269 why are these so many mega Republicans out there 00:07:32.269 --> 00:07:35.110 that seems to stick with him through thick and 00:07:35.110 --> 00:07:38.670 thin, no matter what the abomination is, they 00:07:38.670 --> 00:07:41.189 are sticking with him? What is this? What is 00:07:41.189 --> 00:07:44.529 causing this? Yeah, that's the right question 00:07:44.529 --> 00:07:48.209 to ask, because really, who would these these 00:07:48.209 --> 00:07:51.529 dictators be without their followers? What if 00:07:51.529 --> 00:07:55.529 nobody showed up for their rallies? What if nobody, 00:07:55.569 --> 00:08:01.709 you know, decided to adulate them? So so, you 00:08:01.709 --> 00:08:04.670 know, part of it is if you look at when these 00:08:04.670 --> 00:08:09.029 people come up and have success. It's often when 00:08:09.029 --> 00:08:11.550 there's been a lot of change in a society. And 00:08:11.550 --> 00:08:14.810 this is a pattern over 100 years. It could be 00:08:14.810 --> 00:08:17.810 a moment where things feel like they're falling 00:08:17.810 --> 00:08:22.310 apart and traditional political parties are not 00:08:22.310 --> 00:08:26.709 sufficient anymore for people. Or after the fall 00:08:26.709 --> 00:08:29.149 of communism, that's a big one. Or after World 00:08:29.149 --> 00:08:32.860 War I, when fascists came up. But often it's 00:08:32.860 --> 00:08:36.220 when people feel that the quote wrong people 00:08:36.220 --> 00:08:38.759 are getting power in society. So it could be 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:42.980 women attaining more equity and visibility, racial 00:08:42.980 --> 00:08:46.360 emancipation, workers' rights. And it's those 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:50.840 times of great social change when the strongman 00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:54.210 comes up and says, I'm going to fix it. I'm going 00:08:54.210 --> 00:08:57.669 to fix it by having a kind of male supremacy. 00:08:58.570 --> 00:09:01.690 And that is, you know, and in Euro -American 00:09:01.690 --> 00:09:05.750 context, of course, a white male supremacy and 00:09:05.750 --> 00:09:07.789 has different articulations in different areas 00:09:07.789 --> 00:09:10.649 of the world. But it's when some people feel 00:09:10.649 --> 00:09:14.269 that they're losing something from the way that 00:09:14.269 --> 00:09:17.330 society is going. And then the strongmen, because 00:09:17.330 --> 00:09:20.950 again, because they have no inner core, they. 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:24.120 They read the marketplace. And Trump, a lot of 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:27.659 them actually had a background in either advertising 00:09:27.659 --> 00:09:31.779 or media, TV, television, journalism. And they 00:09:31.779 --> 00:09:34.740 read the marketplace and they make themselves 00:09:34.740 --> 00:09:38.179 what is most wanted at that moment. And that's 00:09:38.179 --> 00:09:40.440 it's very important. And that's why the follower 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:47.320 feels seen by him and feels that. He he will 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:50.519 be the protector. He'll be protected. And so 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:55.179 literally, Trump said, I am your voice. You you've 00:09:55.179 --> 00:09:57.679 been forgotten, but you're forgotten no longer. 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:01.759 And he made himself what would work at that moment. 00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:05.679 And Berlusconi did the same in Italy. So the 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:09.700 follower feels protected because of this. And 00:10:09.700 --> 00:10:13.120 then once they bond and this is true of elites, 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:16.559 too, as well as popular followers. These are 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:19.740 it's unbelievable. And it's it's what does it 00:10:19.740 --> 00:10:22.960 say about psychology? Once they bond to the leader 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:24.700 or they make their deals, if they're elites, 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:28.320 they stick with them through whatever, no matter 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:31.700 what happens. It's really hard to break those 00:10:31.700 --> 00:10:34.759 bonds for elites. It's because they're getting 00:10:34.759 --> 00:10:37.720 something out of it and they are afraid that 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:40.419 something will happen to them or they'll just 00:10:40.419 --> 00:10:43.899 lose out. But that is the problem, that once 00:10:43.899 --> 00:10:47.059 they make the bonds, they will put up with and 00:10:47.059 --> 00:10:51.480 rationalize an enormous amount of damage and 00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:55.820 violence to stick with the leader. Is this like 00:10:55.820 --> 00:11:00.240 an aspect of confirmation bias? Yes, to some 00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:02.580 extent, especially grassroots people. And in 00:11:02.580 --> 00:11:05.919 fact, so many of us in the United States have 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:08.720 somebody in there, either your family or your 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:11.950 community or your church. who you can't talk 00:11:11.950 --> 00:11:15.990 to anymore. And the more what happens is, and 00:11:15.990 --> 00:11:18.110 there's interesting studies also from the point 00:11:18.110 --> 00:11:21.009 of view of people who've been defrauded by like 00:11:21.009 --> 00:11:24.809 financial con men. Once people, if they start 00:11:24.809 --> 00:11:27.690 waking up and they start to realize that their 00:11:27.690 --> 00:11:32.269 idol might have not been truthful with them, 00:11:32.389 --> 00:11:39.049 they feel deeply ashamed. And so they dig in 00:11:39.049 --> 00:11:42.269 sometimes. So they start to come out. And that 00:11:42.269 --> 00:11:45.330 is when it's tempting for us to say, oh, I told 00:11:45.330 --> 00:11:48.169 you so. You know, thank God you're seeing the 00:11:48.169 --> 00:11:51.929 light. But that can be counterproductive because 00:11:51.929 --> 00:11:54.610 they feel ashamed. And the more they realize 00:11:54.610 --> 00:11:58.230 they were defrauded, and that applies to political 00:11:58.230 --> 00:12:04.669 things too, the more they can be kind of stubborn. 00:12:04.730 --> 00:12:09.639 And it can take a long time for them to... to 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:11.299 come out of it, unless something catastrophic 00:12:11.299 --> 00:12:14.100 happens. And then sometimes it's like a brusque 00:12:14.100 --> 00:12:17.779 awakening. Well, I mean, I think all of us resent 00:12:17.779 --> 00:12:21.139 it when somebody says, I told you so. Yes. So 00:12:21.139 --> 00:12:24.259 I think I... That's not a good... When we're 00:12:24.259 --> 00:12:26.659 having our conversations, I am urging people 00:12:26.659 --> 00:12:29.340 to try and have conversations. And I mean, my 00:12:29.340 --> 00:12:32.690 own mother, she lives in England and... During 00:12:32.690 --> 00:12:36.009 the pandemic, they had real lockdowns and she 00:12:36.009 --> 00:12:38.389 was in a small village. And she started watching 00:12:38.389 --> 00:12:42.730 Russia Today. And she became totally enchanted 00:12:42.730 --> 00:12:45.809 with Russia Today. And she had never mentioned 00:12:45.809 --> 00:12:48.110 Putin. And she started talking about Putin as 00:12:48.110 --> 00:12:51.090 like the best thing ever. And she developed a 00:12:51.090 --> 00:12:55.289 rabid hatred of Biden. And so I started, you 00:12:55.289 --> 00:12:58.230 know, sending her things that I myself had written 00:12:58.230 --> 00:13:02.320 for CNN about, you know. a Russian playbook and 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:05.200 this. And she just would say, you're just fake 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:09.100 news. You're fake news to her own daughter. So 00:13:09.100 --> 00:13:12.279 it's very hard when they're in the thick of it 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:14.899 to deal with people like that. But we should 00:13:14.899 --> 00:13:17.000 keep the dialogue going. This is what the experts 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:19.080 say. You don't want to push them away further. 00:13:19.659 --> 00:13:22.100 Well, I had a similar discussion with a very 00:13:22.100 --> 00:13:25.639 good friend, a friend of more than 45 years standing. 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:29.559 A very intelligent man, a very wealthy man, a 00:13:29.559 --> 00:13:32.320 guy who I consider one of my best friends. And 00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:36.419 when we discussed the January 6th incident of 00:13:36.419 --> 00:13:41.000 2021. He insisted that all of these people were 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:42.960 not insurrectionists, but they'd been invited 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:45.440 in. And I said to him, I said, where did you 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:48.899 get that? They were invited in and they killed 00:13:48.899 --> 00:13:52.379 people and attacked police officers. I finally 00:13:52.379 --> 00:13:54.440 I backed off because it was a social occasion. 00:13:54.779 --> 00:13:57.000 And I didn't want to, you know, I have a lot 00:13:57.000 --> 00:13:59.399 of affection for this gentleman and his wife. 00:13:59.820 --> 00:14:04.120 But I wonder where they get their news. And so 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:07.009 let me ask you this, Ruth, what? How is there 00:14:07.009 --> 00:14:09.129 a way, you know, I know this sounds kind of simplistic, 00:14:09.250 --> 00:14:11.750 but is there a way to deprogram them? I mean, 00:14:11.769 --> 00:14:14.090 how do these people eventually, who follow an 00:14:14.090 --> 00:14:16.909 authoritarian, why do they break with them? Why 00:14:16.909 --> 00:14:20.009 do they defect? Do you think these murders in 00:14:20.009 --> 00:14:24.230 Minneapolis will have some effect on them? I 00:14:24.230 --> 00:14:30.429 have to clear my throat, sorry. I think that 00:14:30.429 --> 00:14:33.389 if they're very deep into their disinformation 00:14:33.389 --> 00:14:37.519 tunnel, as I call it, Even murders like that, 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:40.419 cold -blooded execution style stuff, will not 00:14:40.419 --> 00:14:45.039 because they've imbibed the talking point of 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:47.019 the government that these were domestic terrorists. 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:53.000 But eventually, it's going to be harder for the 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:56.299 government propaganda to not conflict with what 00:14:56.299 --> 00:14:58.980 they see around themselves in their own communities. 00:14:59.259 --> 00:15:03.080 And once those lies are very apparent and... 00:15:03.389 --> 00:15:05.570 And soon many, many people are going to know 00:15:05.570 --> 00:15:10.929 somebody or know of someone who has been brutalized 00:15:10.929 --> 00:15:14.190 in some way or another by ICE or something has 00:15:14.190 --> 00:15:18.049 happened to them. And also the economy may deteriorate 00:15:18.049 --> 00:15:21.730 further. And so it's going to be harder to deny 00:15:21.730 --> 00:15:25.190 that what the government is saying and Trump's 00:15:25.190 --> 00:15:28.889 priorities of his ballroom and kidnapping Maduro, 00:15:28.929 --> 00:15:32.610 all these foreign policy things that... and he's 00:15:32.610 --> 00:15:35.230 not interested in them and affordability, it'll 00:15:35.230 --> 00:15:39.210 be harder to ignore. And so what you see, many 00:15:39.210 --> 00:15:41.389 of the case studies are long regimes, almost 00:15:41.389 --> 00:15:43.490 like a one -party state, and that's different. 00:15:44.049 --> 00:15:47.799 But it can take... either a kind of rotting from 00:15:47.799 --> 00:15:51.340 within of the state due to corruption. And so 00:15:51.340 --> 00:15:54.799 what did we see in Russia is you had like hundreds 00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:57.720 of thousands of young men fleeing for the border 00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:02.580 because after the, quote, special military operation 00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:05.940 into Ukraine, because they knew very well that, 00:16:05.980 --> 00:16:08.960 you know, Russian military was not what it was 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:11.980 supposed to be. And they would be cannon fodder 00:16:11.980 --> 00:16:14.440 and they would die. So they hundreds of thousands 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:17.870 were ran for the. They tried to get out of the 00:16:17.870 --> 00:16:20.590 country. And that's an example of people who 00:16:20.590 --> 00:16:25.730 are no longer believing the propaganda. So I 00:16:25.730 --> 00:16:28.690 think you're familiar with the doomsday clock 00:16:28.690 --> 00:16:31.269 of the Federation of American Scientists. That's 00:16:31.269 --> 00:16:34.590 where they speculate how close we are to nuclear 00:16:34.590 --> 00:16:37.389 Armageddon. And they say so many minutes until 00:16:37.389 --> 00:16:39.909 midnight and they set that hand back or forward 00:16:39.909 --> 00:16:42.269 depending on how close we're coming to that nuclear. 00:16:42.889 --> 00:16:45.889 precipice, that Armageddon. So if you had an 00:16:45.889 --> 00:16:49.690 authoritarian doomsday clock, how close are we 00:16:49.690 --> 00:16:52.950 to midnight with an authoritarian takeover and 00:16:52.950 --> 00:16:55.549 a collapse of our democracy? Where would you 00:16:55.549 --> 00:16:59.549 put the minute hand right now? You know, in some 00:16:59.549 --> 00:17:02.129 ways it's tempting to say we're halfway there 00:17:02.129 --> 00:17:04.890 because Huge amount of damage has been done. 00:17:04.950 --> 00:17:07.210 And it depends what your metrics are. If the 00:17:07.210 --> 00:17:10.410 metric is the damage to government institutions 00:17:10.410 --> 00:17:13.130 like Department of Justice, the State Department, 00:17:13.369 --> 00:17:19.130 it's way beyond half. It's huge damage has been 00:17:19.130 --> 00:17:21.809 done. And foreign policy has been personalized. 00:17:21.849 --> 00:17:26.069 You see this with other autocrats. where these 00:17:26.069 --> 00:17:28.750 cronies and sons -in -law, you know, people who 00:17:28.750 --> 00:17:31.609 they're pushing out the foreign policy establishment. 00:17:31.950 --> 00:17:36.549 And so under that metric, we're quite a ways 00:17:36.549 --> 00:17:39.369 onward. And also corruption, of course, being 00:17:39.369 --> 00:17:44.710 able to hold the leader accountable and his cabinet 00:17:44.710 --> 00:17:49.130 ministers. For corruption, that is down the path. 00:17:49.609 --> 00:17:52.470 And the other thing that's notable about our 00:17:52.470 --> 00:17:57.880 situation is... So much was done so quickly that 00:17:57.880 --> 00:18:02.180 there is no comparison to really any other leader 00:18:02.180 --> 00:18:06.299 who came into power via elections. If you look 00:18:06.299 --> 00:18:09.319 at the first year of Putin, Erdogan, even Orban 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:12.279 did a lot, but we're also the United States. 00:18:12.700 --> 00:18:16.019 And they also wrecked USAID. They did so many 00:18:16.019 --> 00:18:18.460 things for foreign policy. And when the U .S. 00:18:18.500 --> 00:18:20.559 does things, it reverberates around the world. 00:18:20.740 --> 00:18:25.420 So there is no other. government outside of a 00:18:25.420 --> 00:18:29.460 coup, where the effects within the country and 00:18:29.460 --> 00:18:33.799 globally were resonating so much as what we've 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:37.259 been living through. Yes, I've made the statement, 00:18:37.259 --> 00:18:40.619 and I hate to trivialize this by comparing our 00:18:40.619 --> 00:18:44.519 president to a certain German leader in the 1930s, 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:46.720 but it took the burning down of the Reichstag 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:52.559 after Hitler was made chancellor. Donald Trump 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:55.420 is moving much more quickly in some respects. 00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:59.440 And that's very important. And the reasons for 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:02.640 that, they had a shadow government in Heritage 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:07.500 Foundation and Project 2025. They had Musk, who 00:19:07.500 --> 00:19:11.240 was the oligarch. You know, that's also, I think 00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:13.579 that right now the U .S. is a laboratory for 00:19:13.579 --> 00:19:17.039 a new form of authoritarianism. So you have classic 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:19.859 things going on, capturing institutions, capturing 00:19:19.859 --> 00:19:25.170 media. de facto paramilitary like ICE. But what 00:19:25.170 --> 00:19:29.049 happened with Musk was unheard of because the 00:19:29.049 --> 00:19:31.769 oligarch who helps the leader is supposed to 00:19:31.769 --> 00:19:34.829 be outside of government. That's how it's worked 00:19:34.829 --> 00:19:39.930 in Russia, in Modi. They buy up banks or they 00:19:39.930 --> 00:19:43.950 buy up newspapers and then they ally. Here, Trump 00:19:43.950 --> 00:19:48.349 gave a private citizen, Musk, who's the richest 00:19:48.349 --> 00:19:52.210 in the whole world, to the ability to come in 00:19:52.210 --> 00:19:56.450 to the sensitive nerve centers of a superpower 00:19:56.450 --> 00:20:00.329 through Doge. And Doge was the mechanism to infiltrate 00:20:00.329 --> 00:20:04.109 and plunder the U .S. government. And my mouth 00:20:04.109 --> 00:20:07.529 was falling open that he was made a contemporary 00:20:07.529 --> 00:20:10.759 government employee, but this was just a... This 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:15.519 was just a ruse, let's say, of cover. And they 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:19.380 were allowed to go in and sack, you know, all 00:20:19.380 --> 00:20:22.700 of the sensitive systems of payment and treasury 00:20:22.700 --> 00:20:25.299 systems. When did that happen? They locked out 00:20:25.299 --> 00:20:27.579 employees. They locked them out of their computers. 00:20:27.700 --> 00:20:30.500 It's like coup tactics, really a different kind 00:20:30.500 --> 00:20:33.279 of coup, a 21st century coup. And that's also 00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:37.400 how things have happened so fast. Now, to finish 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:40.029 answering your question, though. There's been 00:20:40.029 --> 00:20:43.109 an enormous amount of pushback that indicates 00:20:43.109 --> 00:20:48.130 that we still have a democracy in many respects, 00:20:48.250 --> 00:20:50.750 including inside institutions. There have been 00:20:50.750 --> 00:20:55.450 300 successful legal cases decided on by judges, 00:20:55.750 --> 00:20:58.410 many of whom were appointed by Trump. So they 00:20:58.410 --> 00:21:02.250 have not been able to totally capture yet the 00:21:02.250 --> 00:21:06.130 judiciary the way that Erdogan and Orban have 00:21:06.130 --> 00:21:08.579 been able to do. And certainly. You know, Putin 00:21:08.579 --> 00:21:11.819 and people like that. So and then you have all 00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:15.420 of the grassroots protests all over the nation 00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:18.579 and you have organized things like no kings that 00:21:18.579 --> 00:21:21.000 are building and building in numbers. And then 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:23.420 you have all the spontaneous mobilizations that 00:21:23.420 --> 00:21:26.079 are very moving of people coming out. You know, 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:27.680 they're on their way home and they see somebody 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:31.079 being brutalized by ICE and they drop their briefcase 00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:33.460 and go in or they are home and they're in their 00:21:33.460 --> 00:21:36.039 pajamas and they rush out the door. And that's 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:40.039 going on all over the country. And then, you 00:21:40.039 --> 00:21:43.099 know, there's a lot of independent media like 00:21:43.099 --> 00:21:45.940 Substax, and we're all still able to speak out, 00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:48.940 perhaps more carefully, but we speak out. And 00:21:48.940 --> 00:21:52.920 so they have not managed to wreck the democratic, 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:56.180 I would call it, public sphere. These are the 00:21:56.180 --> 00:21:59.960 guardrails of democracy. It shows a certain fairly 00:21:59.960 --> 00:22:03.420 high degree of resilience that we can hopefully 00:22:03.420 --> 00:22:06.200 recover. So we're not to the point where we can't 00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:10.740 recover. No. And I actually believe that I am 00:22:10.740 --> 00:22:14.519 an optimist by nature, which is a good thing 00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:19.480 given the people I study, because they're like 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:21.599 the worst people in the world. And you've got 00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:24.589 to immerse yourself in there. their lives and 00:22:24.589 --> 00:22:28.369 it's not pleasant. But I believe that one of 00:22:28.369 --> 00:22:31.190 my maxims is never underestimate the American 00:22:31.190 --> 00:22:33.490 people. And maybe because I'm a first generation 00:22:33.490 --> 00:22:41.089 American, I think that because Trump is engaging 00:22:41.089 --> 00:22:44.250 in overreach and he's making a lot of unforced 00:22:44.250 --> 00:22:47.190 errors and there is this thing called autocratic 00:22:47.190 --> 00:22:51.339 backfire. And one of the conditions that cause 00:22:51.339 --> 00:22:56.019 it and cause mass resistance and elite defections 00:22:56.019 --> 00:23:00.180 are corruption, like blatant corruption, like 00:23:00.180 --> 00:23:04.019 not even hiding it anymore. Overreach in terms 00:23:04.019 --> 00:23:08.420 of brutality for ordinary people, check. And 00:23:08.420 --> 00:23:12.700 then the creation of hardship and basically the 00:23:12.700 --> 00:23:15.480 government being very obvious that doesn't care. 00:23:16.299 --> 00:23:19.700 And, of course, Trump doesn't care what happens 00:23:19.700 --> 00:23:23.559 to people. And that's been evident forever. Well, 00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:26.359 you quoted him. You said that he said a while 00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:28.420 back he could shoot somebody and they wouldn't 00:23:28.420 --> 00:23:32.180 care. Yeah. And it's taken people. The thing 00:23:32.180 --> 00:23:35.319 is about America, with the great respect for 00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:37.799 the presidency, it's taken people a very long 00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:44.059 time to want to acknowledge how scary, too, how 00:23:44.059 --> 00:23:48.940 immoral. just uncaring Trump is. And I remember 00:23:48.940 --> 00:23:53.519 in 2020, during the pandemic, I was interviewed 00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:56.599 and I said that Trump didn't care if you lived 00:23:56.599 --> 00:23:59.740 or died. He doesn't. None of them care. They're 00:23:59.740 --> 00:24:03.880 narcissists. They don't care. But this, I got 00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:06.660 a lot of hate mail or people were upset because 00:24:06.660 --> 00:24:10.630 it's too bleak. And we're used to, we've had 00:24:10.630 --> 00:24:12.930 good and less good presidents, but the office 00:24:12.930 --> 00:24:16.410 of the presidency has a prestige and governance 00:24:16.410 --> 00:24:19.509 in a democracy has something to do with public 00:24:19.509 --> 00:24:22.890 welfare. And here we've got the whole point of 00:24:22.890 --> 00:24:25.369 our autocratic governance is totally different, 00:24:25.470 --> 00:24:28.150 has nothing to do with public welfare. It's about 00:24:28.150 --> 00:24:31.450 getting rich from office and consolidating power 00:24:31.450 --> 00:24:35.230 as much as possible so that nobody can come after 00:24:35.230 --> 00:24:39.980 you. And so it's taken, Americans didn't have 00:24:39.980 --> 00:24:44.180 a national precedent for this. And so that's 00:24:44.180 --> 00:24:48.180 been a hindrance, I would say, in a way. It's 00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:49.880 the strength of our country, but it's been a 00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:52.420 hindrance in terms of getting people to realize 00:24:52.420 --> 00:24:56.579 the extent of the danger. My adult children have 00:24:56.579 --> 00:25:00.180 asked me how we can overcome this slide, or maybe 00:25:00.180 --> 00:25:03.420 it's a plunge towards authoritarianism in America. 00:25:03.500 --> 00:25:06.059 Do you have any advice for young adults today, 00:25:06.180 --> 00:25:10.160 or any of our listeners for that matter, to how 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:13.359 we can prevent this slide into this authoritarian 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:15.920 state that you describe so well in your book, 00:25:16.019 --> 00:25:19.539 Strong Men? I think that what we're living through 00:25:19.539 --> 00:25:24.299 now is a giant civics lesson. And I certainly 00:25:24.299 --> 00:25:26.980 see everything I'm doing as civic education about 00:25:26.980 --> 00:25:31.359 how precious our democratic rights are, how we're 00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:33.940 so privileged to have these rights. And one of 00:25:33.940 --> 00:25:36.359 the things I've learned from also talking to 00:25:36.359 --> 00:25:41.839 dissidents and just my own studies is that you 00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:45.259 use every tool and space that you have while 00:25:45.259 --> 00:25:47.720 you still have it. And that includes elections. 00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:51.769 I get. Emails from people who say, well, we're 00:25:51.769 --> 00:25:54.789 fascists now. This is a fascist state. So you 00:25:54.789 --> 00:25:57.049 can't vote your way out of fascism. And that 00:25:57.049 --> 00:26:00.670 is cynical because we still have elections and 00:26:00.670 --> 00:26:04.150 Democrats are racking up a lot of victories and 00:26:04.150 --> 00:26:07.349 it's starting to rattle the Republican Party. 00:26:07.450 --> 00:26:11.650 And something could come of that later on. I 00:26:11.650 --> 00:26:14.390 agree. I agree. We just elected a Democratic 00:26:14.390 --> 00:26:16.849 governor, Abigail Spanberger, here in Virginia. 00:26:17.490 --> 00:26:20.329 The new governor in New Jersey, I believe it 00:26:20.329 --> 00:26:24.369 is. This is encouraging to me that all is not 00:26:24.369 --> 00:26:27.789 lost. It's going to continue. And so we have 00:26:27.789 --> 00:26:30.369 to. But there's there's millions and millions 00:26:30.369 --> 00:26:33.500 of people in America who. either were detached 00:26:33.500 --> 00:26:36.859 from politics, took our liberties for granted. 00:26:37.099 --> 00:26:40.200 And so we have to reach those people and do, 00:26:40.299 --> 00:26:43.819 you know, registering people to vote. That's 00:26:43.819 --> 00:26:47.000 one avenue that we never give up on elections. 00:26:47.059 --> 00:26:50.319 And we work actively. If you want a phone bank, 00:26:50.420 --> 00:26:52.339 whatever way, you don't have to be in the streets 00:26:52.339 --> 00:26:54.000 protesting. There's many other things you can 00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:58.779 do. But working to. to make people realize what 00:26:58.779 --> 00:27:03.359 the stakes are of being detached right now. I 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:06.200 agree. In fact, if you permit me, I'd like to 00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:08.579 read one quote that you wrote in your book, which 00:27:08.579 --> 00:27:11.740 I think is just beautiful. You say, there are 00:27:11.740 --> 00:27:14.099 two paths people can take when faced with the 00:27:14.099 --> 00:27:16.779 proliferation of polarization and hatred in their 00:27:16.779 --> 00:27:19.480 societies. They can dig their trenches deeper. 00:27:20.009 --> 00:27:22.910 or they can reach across the lines to stop a 00:27:22.910 --> 00:27:25.809 new cycle of destruction, knowing that solidarity, 00:27:26.130 --> 00:27:29.130 love, and dialogue are what the strong man most 00:27:29.130 --> 00:27:31.930 fears. History shows the importance of keeping 00:27:31.930 --> 00:27:34.750 hope and faith in humanity and supporting those 00:27:34.750 --> 00:27:37.789 who struggle for freedom in our own time. We 00:27:37.789 --> 00:27:39.930 can carry with us the stories of those who lived 00:27:39.930 --> 00:27:43.430 and died, as just happened in Minnesota, over 00:27:43.430 --> 00:27:45.710 a century of democracy's destruction and resurrection. 00:27:46.589 --> 00:27:48.690 That's precious counsel for us today. Those are 00:27:48.690 --> 00:27:50.450 beautiful words, Ruth, and I think it's wonderful 00:27:50.450 --> 00:27:56.529 advice. Thank you. Yeah, it was like a journey 00:27:56.529 --> 00:28:00.730 to write the book, and it was not easy at times 00:28:00.730 --> 00:28:04.210 to write that book. Well, it was written four 00:28:04.210 --> 00:28:07.349 years ago. It was written during the first Trump 00:28:07.349 --> 00:28:12.190 administration. I know. But what I came away 00:28:12.190 --> 00:28:18.710 is that— The answer to the hatred is for us to 00:28:18.710 --> 00:28:22.490 prioritize the values of empathy and kindness 00:28:22.490 --> 00:28:26.210 and community. And so it's been all over the 00:28:26.210 --> 00:28:29.069 world when people have built a nonviolent resistance. 00:28:29.170 --> 00:28:32.630 Very, very important that it be nonviolent and 00:28:32.630 --> 00:28:36.549 come together to help each other when the government 00:28:36.549 --> 00:28:40.029 doesn't care or is actively becoming a hostile 00:28:40.029 --> 00:28:43.990 force. We have a lot more agency and authoritarians 00:28:43.990 --> 00:28:47.410 want us to think that we're hopeless and they 00:28:47.410 --> 00:28:50.269 want us to be helpless or think that we're helpless. 00:28:50.529 --> 00:28:57.869 And so coming together and embodying the values 00:28:57.869 --> 00:29:00.450 that are the opposite of the strongman brand 00:29:00.450 --> 00:29:04.990 is something that's very important. Yes, absolutely. 00:29:05.869 --> 00:29:09.009 I noticed that the book is all about strong men, 00:29:09.069 --> 00:29:11.329 but I didn't notice any mention of strong women. 00:29:11.430 --> 00:29:13.670 Is there a reason for that, do you think? Is 00:29:13.670 --> 00:29:21.390 this a testicular trait? I have a chapter on 00:29:21.390 --> 00:29:25.589 machismo, and it's one of the first books to 00:29:25.589 --> 00:29:29.730 really put machismo up there along with propaganda 00:29:29.730 --> 00:29:32.910 and corruption and violence as a tool of rule. 00:29:33.740 --> 00:29:36.980 And I didn't include somebody like Thatcher or 00:29:36.980 --> 00:29:40.740 Gandhi because I wanted to really focus on people 00:29:40.740 --> 00:29:44.279 who really wrecked a democracy completely, like 00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:48.920 and became dictatorial figures. Now, today, though, 00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:53.039 we have the book was written before Meloni came 00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:57.240 to power. And I do think it's it is significant 00:29:57.240 --> 00:30:02.769 that. She is the first female prime minister 00:30:02.769 --> 00:30:05.970 in Italy. It's a huge deal. But she was a neo 00:30:05.970 --> 00:30:09.529 -fascist, and her mentors were Mussolini, who 00:30:09.529 --> 00:30:12.509 there were many videos of her making fascist 00:30:12.509 --> 00:30:16.009 salutes in her youth, and also Berlusconi, who 00:30:16.009 --> 00:30:19.569 were both famous serial rapists and just, you 00:30:19.569 --> 00:30:23.769 know, beyond misogynistic. And so she, yes, she's 00:30:23.769 --> 00:30:26.250 breaking the glass ceiling, but she's highly 00:30:26.250 --> 00:30:29.130 homophobic. She espouses great replacement theory. 00:30:29.289 --> 00:30:33.289 She's friends with Musk. Her domestic policies 00:30:33.289 --> 00:30:36.650 are, her foreign policy is more moderate. Her 00:30:36.650 --> 00:30:40.430 domestic policies are a lot of recycling of what 00:30:40.430 --> 00:30:44.529 Berlusconi did. So women can come. to power even 00:30:44.529 --> 00:30:47.869 for the first time, but they have, in a way, 00:30:47.890 --> 00:30:51.309 internalized ideologies that don't serve women 00:30:51.309 --> 00:30:56.390 well. I'm going to conclude this discussion with 00:30:56.390 --> 00:30:59.730 another quote in your book. Your book is beautifully 00:30:59.730 --> 00:31:03.190 written, and I love this. Democracy needs heroes 00:31:03.190 --> 00:31:05.849 more than ever and compelling narratives that 00:31:05.849 --> 00:31:08.170 make the case for the merits and advantages of 00:31:08.170 --> 00:31:11.279 open societies. Liberal values don't have to 00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:13.839 seem tepid and boring, as the philosopher Martha 00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:17.819 Nussbaum argues. If compassion and love are recognized 00:31:17.819 --> 00:31:20.420 as fundamental to the democratic model of politics, 00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:23.279 too often we have left the work of shaping emotions, 00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:26.880 including patriotism and our love for our country, 00:31:26.940 --> 00:31:29.839 to democracy's enemies. You know, why should 00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:34.440 MAGA have a monopoly on what we claim to be patriotism 00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:38.410 and support of America? Making America great 00:31:38.410 --> 00:31:40.650 again. America has always been great, but they 00:31:40.650 --> 00:31:46.869 are diluting it seriously. And now we have somebody 00:31:46.869 --> 00:31:52.490 in power who is, I believe, working with the 00:31:52.490 --> 00:31:55.789 enemies of America and trying to wreck. If you 00:31:55.789 --> 00:31:59.029 look at what's gone on, it's like as though there's 00:31:59.029 --> 00:32:01.309 a holistic plan. They're a bit too chaotic to 00:32:01.309 --> 00:32:04.369 really have a holistic plan, although Project 00:32:04.369 --> 00:32:09.329 2025 people did. But to take away or wreck or 00:32:09.329 --> 00:32:12.750 defund everything that brought America trust 00:32:12.750 --> 00:32:15.769 and prosperity in the world, from humanitarian 00:32:15.769 --> 00:32:20.250 assistance to medical research to international 00:32:20.250 --> 00:32:24.410 collaborations, all of it has to be wrecked. 00:32:25.210 --> 00:32:29.069 And it's a really scary thing that's going on 00:32:29.069 --> 00:32:31.869 because who's going to prosper? And I guess a 00:32:31.869 --> 00:32:35.079 good ending point is... Trump campaigned on this 00:32:35.079 --> 00:32:38.960 in 2024 in June, I believe it was, in a campaign 00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:42.319 rally. He said, if you have a smart president, 00:32:42.660 --> 00:32:46.140 they don't have to be enemies. You'll make them 00:32:46.140 --> 00:32:49.400 do great. And he was referring to China, Russia 00:32:49.400 --> 00:32:54.380 and North Korea. Incredible. Incredible. Well, 00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:56.400 thank you so much, Ruth, for joining us today. 00:32:57.180 --> 00:32:59.539 Tell the audience again where they can find you 00:32:59.539 --> 00:33:02.160 and your work to resist authoritarianism. And 00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:04.420 we'll post the link, but please tell them about 00:33:04.420 --> 00:33:09.220 that. So I published a lot of my writing. I published 00:33:09.220 --> 00:33:13.319 a newsletter on Substack called Lucid. And it's 00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:15.519 about threats to democracy and authoritarianism. 00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:18.519 And I have weekly for paying subscribers. I have 00:33:18.519 --> 00:33:21.740 weekly Q &As where you can ask me and my guests 00:33:21.740 --> 00:33:24.180 questions directly. I also write for The New 00:33:24.180 --> 00:33:28.789 York Times sometimes. and the author of Strongman 00:33:28.789 --> 00:33:34.109 and working on a book about resistance now. I 00:33:34.109 --> 00:33:35.670 was going to ask you if you were going to update 00:33:35.670 --> 00:33:37.730 Strongman in light of what we're going through 00:33:37.730 --> 00:33:39.710 now, but if you're working on another book and 00:33:39.710 --> 00:33:42.089 resistance, I think that would be wonderful. 00:33:42.250 --> 00:33:45.150 I look forward very much to reading that. So 00:33:45.150 --> 00:33:46.869 thank you again, Ruth, for being on our show 00:33:46.869 --> 00:33:50.670 today. And anyways, if you like what you heard 00:33:50.670 --> 00:33:53.420 on today's show. please subscribe to the Steady 00:33:53.420 --> 00:33:55.400 State Sentinel wherever you get your podcasts 00:33:55.400 --> 00:33:58.859 and give us a five -star review on Google. These 00:33:58.859 --> 00:34:02.180 subscriptions and five stars help us to get this 00:34:02.180 --> 00:34:04.700 important content to the widest audience possible. 00:34:05.339 --> 00:34:07.960 The Steady State Sentinel is for you, our listeners, 00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:10.900 and we want to hear from you. So stay informed, 00:34:11.079 --> 00:34:14.159 stay engaged, and join us next week for another 00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:17.059 episode of the Steady State Sentinel. For the 00:34:17.059 --> 00:34:19.960 Steady State Sentinel, Jim Lawler, still standing 00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:25.440 watch. Thank you for listening to the Steady 00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:29.019 State Sentinel podcast. Don't miss out on more 00:34:29.019 --> 00:34:32.199 insights and exposés from America's premier global 00:34:32.199 --> 00:34:35.920 security experts. Also, subscribe to our Substack 00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:41.099 at substack .com slash at SteadyState1 and follow 00:34:41.099 --> 00:34:43.539 our social media and join us right here next 00:34:43.539 --> 00:34:47.019 week for another exciting edition. The Steady 00:34:47.019 --> 00:34:49.820 State is a nonprofit organization working to 00:34:49.820 --> 00:34:51.860 sustain our democracy and national security. 00:34:52.940 --> 00:34:56.340 Join us and support our mission by visiting www 00:34:56.340 --> 00:34:58.519 .thesteadysate .org.