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Join our expert hosts as they interview field
-tested guests whose unique experiences shed
light on the crises and challenges facing our
nation. Good day. This is Margaret Hennock from
the steady state. I'm a 25 -year veteran of the
Central Intelligence Agency's clandestine service,
and I'm now working with the Steady State, a
political advocacy group. And my guest tonight
is Jack Hopkins. Jack is a Navy veteran, a behavioral
consultant with a substack called Jack Hopkins
Now. I recommend it to everybody. It's terrific.
And Jack, if you are ready to go, I would like
to know, how did you get into the political world
event writing? business? And when did you decide
to do it? Was it a major change for you when
you changed? It was a major change. I kind of
entered into that without realizing what I was
doing in 2018. That was a real hard pivot for
me, as I think I might have mentioned on our
previous podcast episode. I had been a Republican
largely for many years, although I did vote for
Obama in 2008. So I was kind of a strange cat
in that way. I was raised a Republican. I kind
of thought of myself as a Republican, but I didn't
have any real hard line issues with voting for
somebody who I thought was the better pick in
any given election. The COVID debacle, more than
anything else, I was a former Navy hospital corpsman,
EMT, nurse, with multiple family members in nursing.
And somebody, although I haven't worked in that
field for years, over 20 years, to be exact,
it's still a real passion of mine. I still subscribe
to nursing journals. I do stay up on medical
trends and changes that are happening. So it's
something I pay a lot of attention to. And when
I watched... This thing start to unfold and the
trashing of some of our nations and in some cases,
some of the world's top epidemiologists. You
know, you're just you're rocked back on your
heels. You're not necessarily watching what they're
saying be refuted, although you were, but you.
More significant than that to me, you were watching
their credibility and their personalities, the
people themselves being trashed at a moment where
it was being predicted that a lot of people were
going to die, perhaps millions. And that prediction,
unfortunately, is one that came true. That lit
a fire inside of me. That I couldn't have put
out if I would have wanted to. And it's a fire
that has only gotten hotter with each passing
month since that time. So there was there was
never a decision. Hey, I'm going to write about
I just started doing it. The next thing I knew,
I had a little following and I thought, OK, well,
at least there's some people who. want to read
what I'm writing. And I just went from there.
And you've been doing it ever since? I have.
Interesting. What do you think are the three
most important, scary, whatever national security
challenges we as a country face today? And if
you have four, that's okay with me. Okay. Number
one, and it's one we didn't even used to talk
about. We didn't even used to think about it.
I guess I wouldn't say, and you would know better
than I, having been with the CIA. But in general,
it might have been on the radar of some people,
but it wasn't something on the radar of the general
public. And that is domestic threats. So I think,
number one, the enforcement domestically. With
the combination of no public trust. Okay. That
is, that's number one, which kind of a, I guess
a subcategory of that is the escalation of ice,
which almost anybody listening is all too familiar
with what's gone on in recent days and weeks,
actually months for that matter. Then we have.
One that I think is probably not talked about
as much as it should be, and that is the rising
level of threats on our federal judges. You know,
we don't have to agree with a decision that a
judge makes, but to have a functioning republic,
we absolutely have to make it. Okay, for judges
to be able to render a decision without fear
of threat to themselves or their family or death.
We cannot function in a healthy way with that
situation increasing. I think it was Senator
Dick Durbin who recently talked about some research
that had... that looked into this and had, I
don't know if it was, it almost certainly wasn't
causation, but there was definitely a correlation
between the rhetoric coming from the right and
the increased threats on judges. And then number
three, right now, the triangle, I call it, of
Benjamin Netanyahu, Donald Trump, and Iran. Give
me more words on that, please. Yes. You know,
right now, I think to the average person who's
gone to work and comes home tired, they've been
to the grocery store and they just flip on the
television for, you know, 30 minutes, but they
kind of watch it, watch the news while they're
doing something else, or they just kind of scroll
through, you know, their social media and see
what headlines are there. I think a lot of people
look at this right now as a regional issue. And
maybe one could argue that that is a regional
issue at the moment. The problem with this as
it currently stands, Benjamin Netanyahu has recently
indicated he's willing to use military force.
in certain situations against Iran. Donald Trump
is making that clear every day that he's willing
to. In a situation like this, one misstep, one
misstep can take this from regional to global.
Because outside of that triangle of Iran, Netanyahu
and Trump, There are other people closely associated
to what might happen there. But as of now, there's
still enough of a gap that I think we can focus
on Iran, or the average person can focus on Iran.
When you combine this, Trump, Netanyahu, Iran,
the rising domestic... enforcement, without the
trust of the American people, we're sitting on
a powder keg, you know? Can you walk back just
for a second to the Netanyahu -Trump -Iran nexus,
I guess? Yeah. And give me a couple more words
on how you might see it blowing up. Pardon that,
you know, expanding, expanding. Right, right.
Oh, I think blowing up was probably appropriate
for this particular. Me too, but I just didn't
want to say it. There's always this, I guess
I would call it a specific, specifically ambiguous
relationship between Netanyahu and Trump. On
the one hand, you might say that it was very
transparent and very obvious. But on the other
hand, I sometimes catch myself thinking, you
know what? It seems so obvious that it's very
easy to miss something here. To what degree those
two work in tandem for a common cause? And it's
not an either or. I guess I should clarify that.
I don't believe it's an either or. You know,
they're either working together for a common
cause or for... No, I think they could very much
be working for their own outcomes and motives
and goals. But also, I think most people would
agree, they have a shared interest. We've watched
in the last couple of years... Benjamin Netanyahu
take a very Trump -like position on things. When
you have those two men operating from the power
base that they do, I think my answer comes down
to what other players are involved that are not
on the stage with them right now. Does that make
sense? It does. There are... There are people,
there are leaders who have a vested interest
in what happens here. Netanyahu and Trump, we
can watch. Both of them, they love the spotlight.
They love to talk. They love to show that show
of strength, right? They don't worry me quite
as much as the people who don't love the spotlight.
as the players who are very much a part of it,
perhaps, but not showing their hand or even that
they are in the poker game, right? So to pin
down exactly, you know, what it is that would
happen or who, I think the fact that, at least
I can't clearly answer that, is what causes me
the most concern. You know, as I was kind of
catching up on that today, I left with more,
for myself, I left with more questions than I
did answers. If we were to stick to the narrative
that is in mainstream media or in most public
reporting, It seems pretty cut and dry, right?
That, okay, we've got Israel that said, hey,
you do this, we do this. We've got Trump that
says, you do this or you don't do this, we do
this. It's pretty clear. I don't think it's that
clear, though. I don't. That's the troubling
thing. I think the domestic issues here at home.
are much clearer than the Trump -Netanyahu -Iran
triangle, right? The domestic issue is one that
I think we are so clear on because with this
topic in particular, the president is holding
nothing back at this point. In fact, he takes
pride in defiantly describing what is happening,
what his next steps are, and then defending the
not -defendable acts of, right, Renee Nicole
Goode, for example. And in a way, you know, she's
really captured the spotlight in terms of mainstream
media, which... In one respect, it should. The
only detriment to that is there are, I guess,
lesser, in terms of violence, stories in that
they didn't culminate with a death that are happening
all day long in regards to ICE and, in many cases
now, American citizens, right? We're no longer
just talking about... People who came here under
other than legal setup in terms of immigration.
Now, I think the American people are saying,
wait a minute. I was okay with this when it was
about them, right? Yeah, totally. Because I don't
identify with them. I might have made a remark
to a co -worker or to my husband or my daughter
that, oh, that's terrible, but I didn't think
about it beyond there. Now, in my own state or
in my own town or the town next to me, American
citizens have been ripped out of their cars,
beaten, injured, and in some cases, killed. That's
a real pivotal shift. And in the way we, the
population, is reacting at this time, what are
you thinking? And I read you at least three times
a day. What are you thinking your influence can
be on that particular conversation, issue, however
you want to define it? I love that question.
I love that question. I've started focusing more
on that question and the answer because right
now, from an emotional perspective, many people
are coming to a conclusion that we're so far
deep into this now and have watched the last
months and years of... resistance not really
getting the kind of effect that they've wanted,
I think a lot of people have, at least internally,
concluded that I guess violence is ultimately
going to be the only answer. Now, I understand
that, but the problem with that is that violence
almost never has historically, it almost never
has the desired effect, right? Just if we take
it to the extreme, violence usually kills the
wrong people, right? Yeah. At the end of the
day, the news story, more often than not, is
about people in an uprising. being mass slaughtered.
So my focus is on, look, I don't think we are,
I don't think we're anywhere near that point.
I think we are at a point where people are ready
to move beyond the boring things, I call them.
And I know you've seen me. call it that many
times. I think the danger we are in right now
is that the things that have the most leverage
are also many of the things that are the most
boring, the most mundane. They don't leave you
energized. Calling your representative, emailing,
talking to them in person, communicating with
them in a professional way, and it's not that
emotions can't be part of this i think they should
as long as they can still operate in that framework
of professionally contained emotions so that
you're taken seriously you know because once
once they get outside of that people quickly
start getting categorized as not jobs and and
that doesn't move lawmakers right not not jobs
don't move lawmakers so i guess Do your best
to remain a non -nut job appearing person in
your communication. But see, that's not the stuff.
And I'm naming this so that people can identify
it and be aware of it. That's not the stuff that
makes you wake up in the morning with a gut full
of fire going, hell yes, I'm attacking the day.
You know, writing a letter, sending an email.
It's not. And that's why I think. the uglier
stuff, right? That a lot of people seem to be
champing at the bit to engage in. The problem
with that is that does have a lot of fire and
that does have a lot of energy and it's very
emotionally intense. And so it feels, even before
it's been done, it feels a lot like doing something
really important. And do you have a sense through
what you're doing that you can sort of channel
the boring, but possibly more effective and certainly
less dangerous emailing and calling and that
kind of thing? How do you think you might be
able to influence that? Good question. And the
only real... And do you want to? Yeah, I do.
And the only feedback that I have, but it's an
ample amount. I guess let's put that in perspective.
It's ample for, I'm right at like 60 ,000 subscribers
for my newsletter. So, okay, not incredibly massive,
like a million plus newsletter. But within that,
a significant number of those people do provide
feedback to me and let me know the action steps
they... been engaging in or the groups they have
formed or the committees they've become a part
of and how they are taking what they've read
in a newsletter and able to reframe those things
from the boring to the mundane and the almost
laughable. Right? Because think about it, Margaret.
If you just step into the shoes of just... your
common day laborer, right, who's really feeling
emotionally intense. They get off at the factory.
They're pissed off. They're tired. Their attention
span is not really one that's set up for a 3
,000 -word newsletter or a 30 -minute newscast.
And you just say to them, look. Here are three
things I would like you to do. I would like you
to email your state representative. I would like
you to go to City Hall and XYZ and... And XYZ
is a protest calmly not throwing Molotov cocktail.
Yeah, okay, just checking. Right, right. And
you give them, I just named two, but you give
them two or three really simple but... historically
effective action steps when enough people are
doing them with enough pressure and relentlessly
enough, they're going, if they don't slap you,
they probably are going to have something really
smart ass to say to you, right? And I understand
that because those things do not. match emotionally.
And they almost seem offensive. They almost seem
like an insult. One reason I'm leaning into that
so heavily, and this is nothing groundbreaking
or earth -shaking I'm about to share, everybody
knows this, but I just focus on it a little bit
more, perhaps. What people are feeling like doing
right now is exactly what Donald Trump hopes
and prays people do right now. It will play into
the hands of the very people who are causing
those intense emotions that millions of people
are feeling. If it gets to that point, I don't
think anybody can say, for sure, whether we ever
claw our way back. What do you see him doing
in response to that sort of reaction from the
public? Interesting that you ask that, because
I've been thinking about that in a slightly different
way, given how he's handled immigration deportations
with ICE. I think it's pretty clear to most people
now that he loves to target blue states, right?
He has no problem just targeting blue states.
Now, I have no idea from a legal framework how
you would enact this, how you would do it, although
if there is a way, I'm sure Donald Trump. And
his people would figure it out. I think usually
when we have thought about martial law or, you
know, the Insurrection Act, for example, for
most people that conjures images of this nationwide
crackdown, right? Okay, so nobody can... be out
in the streets after 8 p .m. or nobody can do
this or go there or have that. But if we look
to what's happening now with ICE, I don't think
it would be like that at all. I think it would
be very segmented. I think it would target blue
states, perhaps only blue states, while red states
kind of went on as As they always have. Now,
within those red states, which I live in a red
state of Missouri, I think in that situation,
we would see small pockets of targeted attacks
on known Democrats. And not necessarily just
because they're Democrat, but because maybe they
are. a more vocal Democrat, or they have a very
anti -Trump position, either in government or
out as a private citizen. But in terms of the
red state itself, I think we'd see kind of, yeah,
just go on about your lives. Now, is that the
way it will unfold? I guess we all hope we don't.
We don't come to find the answer to that. But
based on how he's handling immigration and deportation,
he knows the states, the governors, that he can't
stand. And it's just easier for him, rather than
trying to parse through and say, okay, how do
we do this nationwide, but not crack down on...
the people who vote for me or voted for me, because
I'm not too sure at this point how concerned
he is with who would vote for him again. And
that's a completely different topic. So it's
just easier to say, oh, it's a blue state, blue
governor, or somebody in leadership in that state
that I've butted heads with. Yeah, definitely
apply this harshly. That seems very Donald Trump
-like to me. Yeah, sounds like it. Just because
we're running a teeny bit slow on time. Yeah.
I was completely taken today with your worry
prevention system. Oh, cool. And I'm curious
as to that was, if that was how you are thinking
about it, the kind of reaction to what's going
on now. Yeah. You know, that's a topic that just,
for decades now, has excited me to no end, and
that is teaching people that worrying, it's a
verb, it's a process. And here's the cool thing
about any process. It has a beginning, an end,
and multiple points of intervention. Between
the beginning and end. Now, we often hear people
say things like, oh, I'm a worrier. Now, if I
identify as that's what I am, that's who I am,
it's part of my DNA, then it's never even going
to be a thought to me to try to intervene in
a process because I don't think of it as a process.
I think of it as a static, very noun -like. thing,
right? So the first thing I like to do is take
it out of that kind of mythological urban legend
form of, okay, well, this person, she or he,
they're just a worrier, and put it into, you
know what, you've been worrying like this for
decades, which means you've had a lot of practice
in that process. You've perfected it. You can
run it. fluidly and smoothly without any conscious
effort at all. And therefore it feels very much
like something happening to you rather than something
you are engaging in. Now, Margaret, I will tell
you this over a 30 year period, the people that
I could take from thinking of it as something
like static that they have no control over. to
realizing that it's a process, knowingly or not,
that they've been engaging in, before any actual
intervention at all, just that awakening, I've
seen create behavioral changes. Not the full
deal, right? Yeah. It's kind of like, and there
are multiple studies in different arenas with
this type of thing, but for example, There are
studies that show that when people get up in
the morning, if they are a coffee drinker, that
before they've even turned on the coffee pot,
just the thought of that first cup of coffee
will kick off some physiological changes at the
biochemical level in that person. Their alertness
will begin to shift just from that Pavlovian,
right, association. between the thought of coffee
and what state it takes them to. So think about
having your whole life, right? Felt like I was
born this way. The doctor grabbed me by the feet,
raised me up, gave me a swat on the hind end
and said, oh, looks like we've got another worrier
here, right? When you've walked around like that,
but then one day, And the key is that when it's
presented to you, it's presented in a way that
something clicks and you believe it. And you
believe it because now you finally see it. You
understand it. And you go, it's not in my DNA.
It's something, regardless of why or how I came
to do that, it's a process at some point. I started
engaging in, and I just got better and better
and did it more often and more often until it
felt very much like I was born this way. And
once they get that, it's like you've handed them
the key to their self -imposed prison cell, and
they reach out through the bars, they turn the
key, and the door swings open, and they're already
feeling shifts in their confidence. Before they've
they've done a damn thing, because now they know
it's possible. Well, it was fascinating to read,
and all I could think of was that I wish my mother
were still around because she was the world champion
worrier. And I'm going to send it to my siblings
and say, does this sound like anybody you guys
know? But it was just a super interesting. You
know, here's how to maybe deal with that. So
I wanted to thank you. personally from me and
hope that other people get something out of it.
Like I felt you were reaching to me and I really,
really thought it was good. Sure. And if you
don't mind, one more thing I want to say on that.
Go for it. It is. Worrying feels very much like
doing something, right? It does. If somebody
is the mother or father of a teenager. Right.
And they just got their license. They've had
their license two days and they're supposed to
be home at 10 o 'clock and it's 1020 and they're
not home yet. Worrying feels like what you are
supposed to do. And because it feels like what
it's supposed to do, it feels like it must be
something useful. And yet, here's the thing,
and we all know this if we just reflect on our
own personal lives. When we are deeply entrenched
in the process of worrying, we are paralyzed.
We're not acting. We're not doing effective or
potentially useful things. And that's because
we've been seduced by that feeling and that thought
that I'm already doing something important. So
as it applies to democracy. Anything that paralyzes
us, especially at this juncture in our country,
cannot be good for democracy. It cannot lead
to steps that will contribute to the preservation
of democracy. So in that regard, particularly
when it comes to anxiety and worry, I see that
as being fundamental. To the preservation of
democracy, because if that anxiety and worry
reaches an intense enough level. Guess what?
On election day, it might just be enough for
somebody to say, I think I'm going to sit this
one out. There's just there's a lot at risk here.
But if you've got your. How I say this, if you've
got your mind and your emotions in check. And
your worry prevention system. You'll vote. Yeah,
it's great, Jack. I really I wasn't going to
talk as much to you about it, but I thought it
was so good. Well, thank you. And I appreciate
your hitting it now. And I hate to say this,
but I think we are actually out of time. I have,
as I always do when I talk to you, really enjoyed
this. As have I. I'm going to request or demand
that when we need you again, you will be there.
I will be there. Absolutely, Margaret. Thank
you so much, Jack. Really great to see you and
to hear you. Likewise, and thank you. It was
a pleasure. This is Margaret Hennock for the
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