WEBVTT - AI generated 00:00:03.320 --> 00:00:05.700 The Steady State Sentinel is produced by the 00:00:05.700 --> 00:00:07.679 Steady State, a community of former national 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:09.960 security professionals who spent their careers 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:12.800 safeguarding the United States at home and abroad. 00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:20.199 Today, we continue that mission by staying true 00:00:20.199 --> 00:00:23.640 to our oaths to defend the Constitution, uphold 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:26.500 our democracy, and protect our nation's security. 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:30.260 Join our expert hosts as they interview field 00:00:30.260 --> 00:00:33.399 -tested guests whose unique experiences shed 00:00:33.399 --> 00:00:36.719 light on the crises and challenges facing our 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:54.780 nation. Good day. This is Margaret Hennock from 00:00:54.780 --> 00:00:57.840 the steady state. I'm a 25 -year veteran of the 00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:00.439 Central Intelligence Agency's clandestine service, 00:01:00.659 --> 00:01:03.280 and I'm now working with the Steady State, a 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:06.480 political advocacy group. And my guest tonight 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:10.180 is Jack Hopkins. Jack is a Navy veteran, a behavioral 00:01:10.180 --> 00:01:13.079 consultant with a substack called Jack Hopkins 00:01:13.079 --> 00:01:16.280 Now. I recommend it to everybody. It's terrific. 00:01:16.939 --> 00:01:20.959 And Jack, if you are ready to go, I would like 00:01:20.959 --> 00:01:24.219 to know, how did you get into the political world 00:01:24.219 --> 00:01:27.640 event writing? business? And when did you decide 00:01:27.640 --> 00:01:30.019 to do it? Was it a major change for you when 00:01:30.019 --> 00:01:35.620 you changed? It was a major change. I kind of 00:01:35.620 --> 00:01:39.680 entered into that without realizing what I was 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:49.140 doing in 2018. That was a real hard pivot for 00:01:49.140 --> 00:01:52.760 me, as I think I might have mentioned on our 00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:58.450 previous podcast episode. I had been a Republican 00:01:58.450 --> 00:02:04.689 largely for many years, although I did vote for 00:02:04.689 --> 00:02:09.849 Obama in 2008. So I was kind of a strange cat 00:02:09.849 --> 00:02:13.490 in that way. I was raised a Republican. I kind 00:02:13.490 --> 00:02:17.629 of thought of myself as a Republican, but I didn't 00:02:17.629 --> 00:02:22.650 have any real hard line issues with voting for 00:02:22.650 --> 00:02:26.889 somebody who I thought was the better pick in 00:02:26.889 --> 00:02:33.590 any given election. The COVID debacle, more than 00:02:33.590 --> 00:02:38.389 anything else, I was a former Navy hospital corpsman, 00:02:38.490 --> 00:02:44.610 EMT, nurse, with multiple family members in nursing. 00:02:45.780 --> 00:02:48.659 And somebody, although I haven't worked in that 00:02:48.659 --> 00:02:54.199 field for years, over 20 years, to be exact, 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:58.659 it's still a real passion of mine. I still subscribe 00:02:58.659 --> 00:03:05.099 to nursing journals. I do stay up on medical 00:03:05.099 --> 00:03:09.199 trends and changes that are happening. So it's 00:03:09.199 --> 00:03:13.479 something I pay a lot of attention to. And when 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:18.240 I watched... This thing start to unfold and the 00:03:18.240 --> 00:03:23.340 trashing of some of our nations and in some cases, 00:03:23.340 --> 00:03:30.340 some of the world's top epidemiologists. You 00:03:30.340 --> 00:03:33.879 know, you're just you're rocked back on your 00:03:33.879 --> 00:03:40.180 heels. You're not necessarily watching what they're 00:03:40.180 --> 00:03:43.919 saying be refuted, although you were, but you. 00:03:44.939 --> 00:03:47.719 More significant than that to me, you were watching 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:50.039 their credibility and their personalities, the 00:03:50.039 --> 00:03:55.560 people themselves being trashed at a moment where 00:03:55.560 --> 00:04:02.699 it was being predicted that a lot of people were 00:04:02.699 --> 00:04:05.639 going to die, perhaps millions. And that prediction, 00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:10.539 unfortunately, is one that came true. That lit 00:04:10.539 --> 00:04:16.240 a fire inside of me. That I couldn't have put 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:19.699 out if I would have wanted to. And it's a fire 00:04:19.699 --> 00:04:23.779 that has only gotten hotter with each passing 00:04:23.779 --> 00:04:27.759 month since that time. So there was there was 00:04:27.759 --> 00:04:31.259 never a decision. Hey, I'm going to write about 00:04:31.259 --> 00:04:36.079 I just started doing it. The next thing I knew, 00:04:36.139 --> 00:04:39.660 I had a little following and I thought, OK, well, 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:43.189 at least there's some people who. want to read 00:04:43.189 --> 00:04:44.870 what I'm writing. And I just went from there. 00:04:46.089 --> 00:04:48.490 And you've been doing it ever since? I have. 00:04:49.930 --> 00:04:52.069 Interesting. What do you think are the three 00:04:52.069 --> 00:04:55.930 most important, scary, whatever national security 00:04:55.930 --> 00:04:59.149 challenges we as a country face today? And if 00:04:59.149 --> 00:05:04.269 you have four, that's okay with me. Okay. Number 00:05:04.269 --> 00:05:08.449 one, and it's one we didn't even used to talk 00:05:08.449 --> 00:05:11.449 about. We didn't even used to think about it. 00:05:12.279 --> 00:05:14.399 I guess I wouldn't say, and you would know better 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:19.240 than I, having been with the CIA. But in general, 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:23.699 it might have been on the radar of some people, 00:05:23.779 --> 00:05:26.819 but it wasn't something on the radar of the general 00:05:26.819 --> 00:05:34.500 public. And that is domestic threats. So I think, 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:41.540 number one, the enforcement domestically. With 00:05:41.540 --> 00:05:45.480 the combination of no public trust. Okay. That 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:51.240 is, that's number one, which kind of a, I guess 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:54.639 a subcategory of that is the escalation of ice, 00:05:54.759 --> 00:05:59.240 which almost anybody listening is all too familiar 00:05:59.240 --> 00:06:02.540 with what's gone on in recent days and weeks, 00:06:02.699 --> 00:06:07.959 actually months for that matter. Then we have. 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:13.040 One that I think is probably not talked about 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:17.920 as much as it should be, and that is the rising 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:24.480 level of threats on our federal judges. You know, 00:06:24.500 --> 00:06:31.339 we don't have to agree with a decision that a 00:06:31.339 --> 00:06:33.980 judge makes, but to have a functioning republic, 00:06:34.379 --> 00:06:40.620 we absolutely have to make it. Okay, for judges 00:06:40.620 --> 00:06:44.300 to be able to render a decision without fear 00:06:44.300 --> 00:06:47.639 of threat to themselves or their family or death. 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:55.860 We cannot function in a healthy way with that 00:06:55.860 --> 00:06:59.800 situation increasing. I think it was Senator 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:06.120 Dick Durbin who recently talked about some research 00:07:06.120 --> 00:07:11.259 that had... that looked into this and had, I 00:07:11.259 --> 00:07:15.180 don't know if it was, it almost certainly wasn't 00:07:15.180 --> 00:07:17.839 causation, but there was definitely a correlation 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:21.939 between the rhetoric coming from the right and 00:07:21.939 --> 00:07:26.560 the increased threats on judges. And then number 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:32.540 three, right now, the triangle, I call it, of 00:07:32.540 --> 00:07:39.180 Benjamin Netanyahu, Donald Trump, and Iran. Give 00:07:39.180 --> 00:07:42.279 me more words on that, please. Yes. You know, 00:07:42.339 --> 00:07:49.100 right now, I think to the average person who's 00:07:49.100 --> 00:07:51.139 gone to work and comes home tired, they've been 00:07:51.139 --> 00:07:52.939 to the grocery store and they just flip on the 00:07:52.939 --> 00:07:55.819 television for, you know, 30 minutes, but they 00:07:55.819 --> 00:07:59.459 kind of watch it, watch the news while they're 00:07:59.459 --> 00:08:02.040 doing something else, or they just kind of scroll 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:05.100 through, you know, their social media and see 00:08:05.100 --> 00:08:09.410 what headlines are there. I think a lot of people 00:08:09.410 --> 00:08:13.389 look at this right now as a regional issue. And 00:08:13.389 --> 00:08:17.790 maybe one could argue that that is a regional 00:08:17.790 --> 00:08:24.329 issue at the moment. The problem with this as 00:08:24.329 --> 00:08:31.730 it currently stands, Benjamin Netanyahu has recently 00:08:31.730 --> 00:08:36.509 indicated he's willing to use military force. 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:41.620 in certain situations against Iran. Donald Trump 00:08:41.620 --> 00:08:46.259 is making that clear every day that he's willing 00:08:46.259 --> 00:08:53.259 to. In a situation like this, one misstep, one 00:08:53.259 --> 00:08:56.639 misstep can take this from regional to global. 00:08:58.539 --> 00:09:03.480 Because outside of that triangle of Iran, Netanyahu 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:09.620 and Trump, There are other people closely associated 00:09:09.620 --> 00:09:14.480 to what might happen there. But as of now, there's 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:18.600 still enough of a gap that I think we can focus 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.539 on Iran, or the average person can focus on Iran. 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:30.179 When you combine this, Trump, Netanyahu, Iran, 00:09:30.419 --> 00:09:36.950 the rising domestic... enforcement, without the 00:09:36.950 --> 00:09:40.610 trust of the American people, we're sitting on 00:09:40.610 --> 00:09:44.350 a powder keg, you know? Can you walk back just 00:09:44.350 --> 00:09:50.970 for a second to the Netanyahu -Trump -Iran nexus, 00:09:51.009 --> 00:09:54.409 I guess? Yeah. And give me a couple more words 00:09:54.409 --> 00:09:57.429 on how you might see it blowing up. Pardon that, 00:09:57.549 --> 00:10:00.669 you know, expanding, expanding. Right, right. 00:10:01.450 --> 00:10:04.350 Oh, I think blowing up was probably appropriate 00:10:04.350 --> 00:10:07.529 for this particular. Me too, but I just didn't 00:10:07.529 --> 00:10:17.929 want to say it. There's always this, I guess 00:10:17.929 --> 00:10:22.730 I would call it a specific, specifically ambiguous 00:10:22.730 --> 00:10:30.279 relationship between Netanyahu and Trump. On 00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:32.600 the one hand, you might say that it was very 00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:37.580 transparent and very obvious. But on the other 00:10:37.580 --> 00:10:41.899 hand, I sometimes catch myself thinking, you 00:10:41.899 --> 00:10:47.720 know what? It seems so obvious that it's very 00:10:47.720 --> 00:10:52.919 easy to miss something here. To what degree those 00:10:52.919 --> 00:11:00.250 two work in tandem for a common cause? And it's 00:11:00.250 --> 00:11:02.730 not an either or. I guess I should clarify that. 00:11:02.809 --> 00:11:04.330 I don't believe it's an either or. You know, 00:11:04.370 --> 00:11:06.090 they're either working together for a common 00:11:06.090 --> 00:11:09.970 cause or for... No, I think they could very much 00:11:09.970 --> 00:11:13.950 be working for their own outcomes and motives 00:11:13.950 --> 00:11:18.289 and goals. But also, I think most people would 00:11:18.289 --> 00:11:24.750 agree, they have a shared interest. We've watched 00:11:24.750 --> 00:11:29.850 in the last couple of years... Benjamin Netanyahu 00:11:29.850 --> 00:11:37.850 take a very Trump -like position on things. When 00:11:37.850 --> 00:11:42.009 you have those two men operating from the power 00:11:42.009 --> 00:11:46.629 base that they do, I think my answer comes down 00:11:46.629 --> 00:11:51.669 to what other players are involved that are not 00:11:51.669 --> 00:11:55.090 on the stage with them right now. Does that make 00:11:55.090 --> 00:11:58.679 sense? It does. There are... There are people, 00:11:58.779 --> 00:12:01.759 there are leaders who have a vested interest 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:08.259 in what happens here. Netanyahu and Trump, we 00:12:08.259 --> 00:12:12.480 can watch. Both of them, they love the spotlight. 00:12:12.700 --> 00:12:17.460 They love to talk. They love to show that show 00:12:17.460 --> 00:12:22.019 of strength, right? They don't worry me quite 00:12:22.019 --> 00:12:25.820 as much as the people who don't love the spotlight. 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:31.580 as the players who are very much a part of it, 00:12:31.620 --> 00:12:37.100 perhaps, but not showing their hand or even that 00:12:37.100 --> 00:12:43.320 they are in the poker game, right? So to pin 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:47.340 down exactly, you know, what it is that would 00:12:47.340 --> 00:12:51.700 happen or who, I think the fact that, at least 00:12:51.700 --> 00:12:56.230 I can't clearly answer that, is what causes me 00:12:56.230 --> 00:13:00.970 the most concern. You know, as I was kind of 00:13:00.970 --> 00:13:06.110 catching up on that today, I left with more, 00:13:06.210 --> 00:13:11.169 for myself, I left with more questions than I 00:13:11.169 --> 00:13:14.450 did answers. If we were to stick to the narrative 00:13:14.450 --> 00:13:19.850 that is in mainstream media or in most public 00:13:19.850 --> 00:13:24.529 reporting, It seems pretty cut and dry, right? 00:13:24.889 --> 00:13:29.669 That, okay, we've got Israel that said, hey, 00:13:29.710 --> 00:13:33.990 you do this, we do this. We've got Trump that 00:13:33.990 --> 00:13:38.330 says, you do this or you don't do this, we do 00:13:38.330 --> 00:13:42.990 this. It's pretty clear. I don't think it's that 00:13:42.990 --> 00:13:48.750 clear, though. I don't. That's the troubling 00:13:48.750 --> 00:13:51.730 thing. I think the domestic issues here at home. 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:58.139 are much clearer than the Trump -Netanyahu -Iran 00:13:58.139 --> 00:14:04.419 triangle, right? The domestic issue is one that 00:14:04.419 --> 00:14:07.759 I think we are so clear on because with this 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:11.539 topic in particular, the president is holding 00:14:11.539 --> 00:14:14.919 nothing back at this point. In fact, he takes 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:22.419 pride in defiantly describing what is happening, 00:14:22.539 --> 00:14:28.019 what his next steps are, and then defending the 00:14:28.019 --> 00:14:35.000 not -defendable acts of, right, Renee Nicole 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:39.759 Goode, for example. And in a way, you know, she's 00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:43.779 really captured the spotlight in terms of mainstream 00:14:43.779 --> 00:14:49.759 media, which... In one respect, it should. The 00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:54.059 only detriment to that is there are, I guess, 00:14:54.100 --> 00:14:59.820 lesser, in terms of violence, stories in that 00:14:59.820 --> 00:15:04.659 they didn't culminate with a death that are happening 00:15:04.659 --> 00:15:11.279 all day long in regards to ICE and, in many cases 00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:14.340 now, American citizens, right? We're no longer 00:15:14.340 --> 00:15:19.350 just talking about... People who came here under 00:15:19.350 --> 00:15:23.850 other than legal setup in terms of immigration. 00:15:26.070 --> 00:15:30.070 Now, I think the American people are saying, 00:15:30.309 --> 00:15:36.009 wait a minute. I was okay with this when it was 00:15:36.009 --> 00:15:41.789 about them, right? Yeah, totally. Because I don't 00:15:41.789 --> 00:15:49.220 identify with them. I might have made a remark 00:15:49.220 --> 00:15:53.139 to a co -worker or to my husband or my daughter 00:15:53.139 --> 00:15:56.059 that, oh, that's terrible, but I didn't think 00:15:56.059 --> 00:15:59.899 about it beyond there. Now, in my own state or 00:15:59.899 --> 00:16:04.320 in my own town or the town next to me, American 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:06.860 citizens have been ripped out of their cars, 00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:15.940 beaten, injured, and in some cases, killed. That's 00:16:15.940 --> 00:16:22.399 a real pivotal shift. And in the way we, the 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:27.000 population, is reacting at this time, what are 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:30.919 you thinking? And I read you at least three times 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:33.980 a day. What are you thinking your influence can 00:16:33.980 --> 00:16:37.759 be on that particular conversation, issue, however 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:39.820 you want to define it? I love that question. 00:16:40.539 --> 00:16:50.080 I love that question. I've started focusing more 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:56.200 on that question and the answer because right 00:16:56.200 --> 00:17:01.080 now, from an emotional perspective, many people 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:05.440 are coming to a conclusion that we're so far 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:10.880 deep into this now and have watched the last 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:15.980 months and years of... resistance not really 00:17:15.980 --> 00:17:20.299 getting the kind of effect that they've wanted, 00:17:20.420 --> 00:17:23.140 I think a lot of people have, at least internally, 00:17:23.420 --> 00:17:27.660 concluded that I guess violence is ultimately 00:17:27.660 --> 00:17:32.740 going to be the only answer. Now, I understand 00:17:32.740 --> 00:17:36.799 that, but the problem with that is that violence 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:43.140 almost never has historically, it almost never 00:17:43.140 --> 00:17:50.680 has the desired effect, right? Just if we take 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:56.720 it to the extreme, violence usually kills the 00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:01.099 wrong people, right? Yeah. At the end of the 00:18:01.099 --> 00:18:06.000 day, the news story, more often than not, is 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:13.140 about people in an uprising. being mass slaughtered. 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:20.119 So my focus is on, look, I don't think we are, 00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:24.039 I don't think we're anywhere near that point. 00:18:24.180 --> 00:18:27.299 I think we are at a point where people are ready 00:18:27.299 --> 00:18:33.259 to move beyond the boring things, I call them. 00:18:33.299 --> 00:18:35.730 And I know you've seen me. call it that many 00:18:35.730 --> 00:18:38.769 times. I think the danger we are in right now 00:18:38.769 --> 00:18:41.930 is that the things that have the most leverage 00:18:41.930 --> 00:18:45.109 are also many of the things that are the most 00:18:45.109 --> 00:18:49.269 boring, the most mundane. They don't leave you 00:18:49.269 --> 00:18:54.569 energized. Calling your representative, emailing, 00:18:54.609 --> 00:18:58.529 talking to them in person, communicating with 00:18:58.529 --> 00:19:03.450 them in a professional way, and it's not that 00:19:03.450 --> 00:19:06.190 emotions can't be part of this i think they should 00:19:06.190 --> 00:19:08.970 as long as they can still operate in that framework 00:19:08.970 --> 00:19:14.690 of professionally contained emotions so that 00:19:14.690 --> 00:19:17.509 you're taken seriously you know because once 00:19:17.509 --> 00:19:21.609 once they get outside of that people quickly 00:19:21.609 --> 00:19:25.829 start getting categorized as not jobs and and 00:19:25.829 --> 00:19:29.869 that doesn't move lawmakers right not not jobs 00:19:29.869 --> 00:19:34.460 don't move lawmakers so i guess Do your best 00:19:34.460 --> 00:19:37.740 to remain a non -nut job appearing person in 00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:40.720 your communication. But see, that's not the stuff. 00:19:40.819 --> 00:19:44.740 And I'm naming this so that people can identify 00:19:44.740 --> 00:19:48.680 it and be aware of it. That's not the stuff that 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:50.819 makes you wake up in the morning with a gut full 00:19:50.819 --> 00:19:54.160 of fire going, hell yes, I'm attacking the day. 00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:57.299 You know, writing a letter, sending an email. 00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:06.559 It's not. And that's why I think. the uglier 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:10.279 stuff, right? That a lot of people seem to be 00:20:10.279 --> 00:20:15.180 champing at the bit to engage in. The problem 00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:18.460 with that is that does have a lot of fire and 00:20:18.460 --> 00:20:21.279 that does have a lot of energy and it's very 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:25.900 emotionally intense. And so it feels, even before 00:20:25.900 --> 00:20:30.740 it's been done, it feels a lot like doing something 00:20:30.740 --> 00:20:36.460 really important. And do you have a sense through 00:20:36.460 --> 00:20:38.960 what you're doing that you can sort of channel 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:43.680 the boring, but possibly more effective and certainly 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:47.000 less dangerous emailing and calling and that 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:50.000 kind of thing? How do you think you might be 00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:53.279 able to influence that? Good question. And the 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:58.859 only real... And do you want to? Yeah, I do. 00:20:59.180 --> 00:21:02.319 And the only feedback that I have, but it's an 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:06.380 ample amount. I guess let's put that in perspective. 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:13.819 It's ample for, I'm right at like 60 ,000 subscribers 00:21:13.819 --> 00:21:19.079 for my newsletter. So, okay, not incredibly massive, 00:21:19.259 --> 00:21:23.859 like a million plus newsletter. But within that, 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:27.519 a significant number of those people do provide 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:31.980 feedback to me and let me know the action steps 00:21:31.980 --> 00:21:35.559 they... been engaging in or the groups they have 00:21:35.559 --> 00:21:37.819 formed or the committees they've become a part 00:21:37.819 --> 00:21:41.819 of and how they are taking what they've read 00:21:41.819 --> 00:21:46.940 in a newsletter and able to reframe those things 00:21:46.940 --> 00:21:52.599 from the boring to the mundane and the almost 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:56.299 laughable. Right? Because think about it, Margaret. 00:21:57.180 --> 00:22:03.180 If you just step into the shoes of just... your 00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:08.259 common day laborer, right, who's really feeling 00:22:08.259 --> 00:22:12.359 emotionally intense. They get off at the factory. 00:22:12.500 --> 00:22:15.779 They're pissed off. They're tired. Their attention 00:22:15.779 --> 00:22:21.180 span is not really one that's set up for a 3 00:22:21.180 --> 00:22:25.079 ,000 -word newsletter or a 30 -minute newscast. 00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:30.990 And you just say to them, look. Here are three 00:22:30.990 --> 00:22:35.049 things I would like you to do. I would like you 00:22:35.049 --> 00:22:39.970 to email your state representative. I would like 00:22:39.970 --> 00:22:44.170 you to go to City Hall and XYZ and... And XYZ 00:22:44.170 --> 00:22:48.029 is a protest calmly not throwing Molotov cocktail. 00:22:48.309 --> 00:22:51.710 Yeah, okay, just checking. Right, right. And 00:22:51.710 --> 00:22:54.769 you give them, I just named two, but you give 00:22:54.769 --> 00:23:00.569 them two or three really simple but... historically 00:23:00.569 --> 00:23:04.910 effective action steps when enough people are 00:23:04.910 --> 00:23:07.970 doing them with enough pressure and relentlessly 00:23:07.970 --> 00:23:13.609 enough, they're going, if they don't slap you, 00:23:13.930 --> 00:23:17.930 they probably are going to have something really 00:23:17.930 --> 00:23:22.490 smart ass to say to you, right? And I understand 00:23:22.490 --> 00:23:28.539 that because those things do not. match emotionally. 00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:31.559 And they almost seem offensive. They almost seem 00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:36.819 like an insult. One reason I'm leaning into that 00:23:36.819 --> 00:23:40.660 so heavily, and this is nothing groundbreaking 00:23:40.660 --> 00:23:44.200 or earth -shaking I'm about to share, everybody 00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:47.819 knows this, but I just focus on it a little bit 00:23:47.819 --> 00:23:53.339 more, perhaps. What people are feeling like doing 00:23:53.339 --> 00:23:58.900 right now is exactly what Donald Trump hopes 00:23:58.900 --> 00:24:06.059 and prays people do right now. It will play into 00:24:06.059 --> 00:24:10.980 the hands of the very people who are causing 00:24:10.980 --> 00:24:13.759 those intense emotions that millions of people 00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:23.259 are feeling. If it gets to that point, I don't 00:24:23.259 --> 00:24:28.269 think anybody can say, for sure, whether we ever 00:24:28.269 --> 00:24:32.730 claw our way back. What do you see him doing 00:24:32.730 --> 00:24:35.750 in response to that sort of reaction from the 00:24:35.750 --> 00:24:41.109 public? Interesting that you ask that, because 00:24:41.109 --> 00:24:44.910 I've been thinking about that in a slightly different 00:24:44.910 --> 00:24:51.710 way, given how he's handled immigration deportations 00:24:51.710 --> 00:24:57.119 with ICE. I think it's pretty clear to most people 00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:02.740 now that he loves to target blue states, right? 00:25:03.380 --> 00:25:08.039 He has no problem just targeting blue states. 00:25:09.859 --> 00:25:16.259 Now, I have no idea from a legal framework how 00:25:16.259 --> 00:25:18.640 you would enact this, how you would do it, although 00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:23.809 if there is a way, I'm sure Donald Trump. And 00:25:23.809 --> 00:25:29.490 his people would figure it out. I think usually 00:25:29.490 --> 00:25:34.369 when we have thought about martial law or, you 00:25:34.369 --> 00:25:38.390 know, the Insurrection Act, for example, for 00:25:38.390 --> 00:25:42.609 most people that conjures images of this nationwide 00:25:42.609 --> 00:25:48.839 crackdown, right? Okay, so nobody can... be out 00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:52.599 in the streets after 8 p .m. or nobody can do 00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:56.920 this or go there or have that. But if we look 00:25:56.920 --> 00:26:01.019 to what's happening now with ICE, I don't think 00:26:01.019 --> 00:26:04.339 it would be like that at all. I think it would 00:26:04.339 --> 00:26:08.700 be very segmented. I think it would target blue 00:26:08.700 --> 00:26:14.180 states, perhaps only blue states, while red states 00:26:14.180 --> 00:26:19.539 kind of went on as As they always have. Now, 00:26:19.660 --> 00:26:24.559 within those red states, which I live in a red 00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:32.059 state of Missouri, I think in that situation, 00:26:32.180 --> 00:26:38.039 we would see small pockets of targeted attacks 00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:43.079 on known Democrats. And not necessarily just 00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:45.140 because they're Democrat, but because maybe they 00:26:45.140 --> 00:26:50.039 are. a more vocal Democrat, or they have a very 00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:53.920 anti -Trump position, either in government or 00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:58.480 out as a private citizen. But in terms of the 00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:04.460 red state itself, I think we'd see kind of, yeah, 00:27:04.619 --> 00:27:10.039 just go on about your lives. Now, is that the 00:27:10.039 --> 00:27:13.819 way it will unfold? I guess we all hope we don't. 00:27:14.140 --> 00:27:17.980 We don't come to find the answer to that. But 00:27:17.980 --> 00:27:23.299 based on how he's handling immigration and deportation, 00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:31.180 he knows the states, the governors, that he can't 00:27:31.180 --> 00:27:35.720 stand. And it's just easier for him, rather than 00:27:35.720 --> 00:27:39.640 trying to parse through and say, okay, how do 00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:43.180 we do this nationwide, but not crack down on... 00:27:43.279 --> 00:27:46.380 the people who vote for me or voted for me, because 00:27:46.380 --> 00:27:50.480 I'm not too sure at this point how concerned 00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:53.960 he is with who would vote for him again. And 00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:59.500 that's a completely different topic. So it's 00:27:59.500 --> 00:28:02.700 just easier to say, oh, it's a blue state, blue 00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:06.819 governor, or somebody in leadership in that state 00:28:06.819 --> 00:28:09.640 that I've butted heads with. Yeah, definitely 00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:16.970 apply this harshly. That seems very Donald Trump 00:28:16.970 --> 00:28:21.930 -like to me. Yeah, sounds like it. Just because 00:28:21.930 --> 00:28:24.970 we're running a teeny bit slow on time. Yeah. 00:28:25.130 --> 00:28:28.970 I was completely taken today with your worry 00:28:28.970 --> 00:28:33.470 prevention system. Oh, cool. And I'm curious 00:28:33.470 --> 00:28:36.730 as to that was, if that was how you are thinking 00:28:36.730 --> 00:28:40.109 about it, the kind of reaction to what's going 00:28:40.109 --> 00:28:44.710 on now. Yeah. You know, that's a topic that just, 00:28:44.849 --> 00:28:50.990 for decades now, has excited me to no end, and 00:28:50.990 --> 00:28:59.690 that is teaching people that worrying, it's a 00:28:59.690 --> 00:29:02.750 verb, it's a process. And here's the cool thing 00:29:02.750 --> 00:29:06.549 about any process. It has a beginning, an end, 00:29:06.630 --> 00:29:10.839 and multiple points of intervention. Between 00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:15.240 the beginning and end. Now, we often hear people 00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:20.660 say things like, oh, I'm a worrier. Now, if I 00:29:20.660 --> 00:29:25.819 identify as that's what I am, that's who I am, 00:29:25.859 --> 00:29:30.319 it's part of my DNA, then it's never even going 00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:34.000 to be a thought to me to try to intervene in 00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:36.759 a process because I don't think of it as a process. 00:29:36.819 --> 00:29:40.380 I think of it as a static, very noun -like. thing, 00:29:40.460 --> 00:29:44.279 right? So the first thing I like to do is take 00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:47.640 it out of that kind of mythological urban legend 00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:51.759 form of, okay, well, this person, she or he, 00:29:51.940 --> 00:29:56.599 they're just a worrier, and put it into, you 00:29:56.599 --> 00:29:59.700 know what, you've been worrying like this for 00:29:59.700 --> 00:30:04.180 decades, which means you've had a lot of practice 00:30:04.180 --> 00:30:07.119 in that process. You've perfected it. You can 00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:10.880 run it. fluidly and smoothly without any conscious 00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:14.700 effort at all. And therefore it feels very much 00:30:14.700 --> 00:30:18.759 like something happening to you rather than something 00:30:18.759 --> 00:30:23.019 you are engaging in. Now, Margaret, I will tell 00:30:23.019 --> 00:30:28.599 you this over a 30 year period, the people that 00:30:28.599 --> 00:30:31.920 I could take from thinking of it as something 00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:35.519 like static that they have no control over. to 00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:38.380 realizing that it's a process, knowingly or not, 00:30:38.460 --> 00:30:42.920 that they've been engaging in, before any actual 00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:49.680 intervention at all, just that awakening, I've 00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:52.759 seen create behavioral changes. Not the full 00:30:52.759 --> 00:30:57.619 deal, right? Yeah. It's kind of like, and there 00:30:57.619 --> 00:31:01.160 are multiple studies in different arenas with 00:31:01.160 --> 00:31:05.640 this type of thing, but for example, There are 00:31:05.640 --> 00:31:07.859 studies that show that when people get up in 00:31:07.859 --> 00:31:12.140 the morning, if they are a coffee drinker, that 00:31:12.140 --> 00:31:15.059 before they've even turned on the coffee pot, 00:31:15.180 --> 00:31:18.380 just the thought of that first cup of coffee 00:31:18.380 --> 00:31:23.440 will kick off some physiological changes at the 00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:26.819 biochemical level in that person. Their alertness 00:31:26.819 --> 00:31:31.779 will begin to shift just from that Pavlovian, 00:31:31.779 --> 00:31:36.960 right, association. between the thought of coffee 00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:43.859 and what state it takes them to. So think about 00:31:43.859 --> 00:31:48.220 having your whole life, right? Felt like I was 00:31:48.220 --> 00:31:51.940 born this way. The doctor grabbed me by the feet, 00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:54.859 raised me up, gave me a swat on the hind end 00:31:54.859 --> 00:31:57.359 and said, oh, looks like we've got another worrier 00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:00.619 here, right? When you've walked around like that, 00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:04.220 but then one day, And the key is that when it's 00:32:04.220 --> 00:32:06.359 presented to you, it's presented in a way that 00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:09.359 something clicks and you believe it. And you 00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:13.000 believe it because now you finally see it. You 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:19.700 understand it. And you go, it's not in my DNA. 00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:28.319 It's something, regardless of why or how I came 00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:32.869 to do that, it's a process at some point. I started 00:32:32.869 --> 00:32:36.849 engaging in, and I just got better and better 00:32:36.849 --> 00:32:41.250 and did it more often and more often until it 00:32:41.250 --> 00:32:44.589 felt very much like I was born this way. And 00:32:44.589 --> 00:32:47.789 once they get that, it's like you've handed them 00:32:47.789 --> 00:32:51.509 the key to their self -imposed prison cell, and 00:32:51.509 --> 00:32:53.470 they reach out through the bars, they turn the 00:32:53.470 --> 00:32:56.509 key, and the door swings open, and they're already 00:32:56.509 --> 00:33:01.589 feeling shifts in their confidence. Before they've 00:33:01.589 --> 00:33:04.390 they've done a damn thing, because now they know 00:33:04.390 --> 00:33:10.329 it's possible. Well, it was fascinating to read, 00:33:10.390 --> 00:33:12.569 and all I could think of was that I wish my mother 00:33:12.569 --> 00:33:15.289 were still around because she was the world champion 00:33:15.289 --> 00:33:18.390 worrier. And I'm going to send it to my siblings 00:33:18.390 --> 00:33:20.470 and say, does this sound like anybody you guys 00:33:20.470 --> 00:33:25.809 know? But it was just a super interesting. You 00:33:25.809 --> 00:33:28.849 know, here's how to maybe deal with that. So 00:33:28.849 --> 00:33:31.970 I wanted to thank you. personally from me and 00:33:31.970 --> 00:33:35.390 hope that other people get something out of it. 00:33:35.710 --> 00:33:38.650 Like I felt you were reaching to me and I really, 00:33:38.730 --> 00:33:41.430 really thought it was good. Sure. And if you 00:33:41.430 --> 00:33:43.769 don't mind, one more thing I want to say on that. 00:33:44.009 --> 00:33:50.490 Go for it. It is. Worrying feels very much like 00:33:50.490 --> 00:33:55.069 doing something, right? It does. If somebody 00:33:55.069 --> 00:34:00.269 is the mother or father of a teenager. Right. 00:34:00.450 --> 00:34:03.349 And they just got their license. They've had 00:34:03.349 --> 00:34:05.269 their license two days and they're supposed to 00:34:05.269 --> 00:34:08.989 be home at 10 o 'clock and it's 1020 and they're 00:34:08.989 --> 00:34:14.909 not home yet. Worrying feels like what you are 00:34:14.909 --> 00:34:18.130 supposed to do. And because it feels like what 00:34:18.130 --> 00:34:21.130 it's supposed to do, it feels like it must be 00:34:21.130 --> 00:34:25.940 something useful. And yet, here's the thing, 00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:28.340 and we all know this if we just reflect on our 00:34:28.340 --> 00:34:33.219 own personal lives. When we are deeply entrenched 00:34:33.219 --> 00:34:36.119 in the process of worrying, we are paralyzed. 00:34:36.500 --> 00:34:41.900 We're not acting. We're not doing effective or 00:34:41.900 --> 00:34:44.480 potentially useful things. And that's because 00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:48.679 we've been seduced by that feeling and that thought 00:34:48.679 --> 00:34:51.159 that I'm already doing something important. So 00:34:51.159 --> 00:34:57.869 as it applies to democracy. Anything that paralyzes 00:34:57.869 --> 00:35:01.889 us, especially at this juncture in our country, 00:35:02.050 --> 00:35:05.269 cannot be good for democracy. It cannot lead 00:35:05.269 --> 00:35:10.190 to steps that will contribute to the preservation 00:35:10.190 --> 00:35:15.090 of democracy. So in that regard, particularly 00:35:15.090 --> 00:35:19.110 when it comes to anxiety and worry, I see that 00:35:19.110 --> 00:35:22.800 as being fundamental. To the preservation of 00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:25.820 democracy, because if that anxiety and worry 00:35:25.820 --> 00:35:30.000 reaches an intense enough level. Guess what? 00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:36.119 On election day, it might just be enough for 00:35:36.119 --> 00:35:40.000 somebody to say, I think I'm going to sit this 00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:44.000 one out. There's just there's a lot at risk here. 00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:51.449 But if you've got your. How I say this, if you've 00:35:51.449 --> 00:35:55.210 got your mind and your emotions in check. And 00:35:55.210 --> 00:35:58.610 your worry prevention system. You'll vote. Yeah, 00:35:58.670 --> 00:36:02.849 it's great, Jack. I really I wasn't going to 00:36:02.849 --> 00:36:05.429 talk as much to you about it, but I thought it 00:36:05.429 --> 00:36:08.510 was so good. Well, thank you. And I appreciate 00:36:08.510 --> 00:36:10.829 your hitting it now. And I hate to say this, 00:36:10.989 --> 00:36:14.880 but I think we are actually out of time. I have, 00:36:15.019 --> 00:36:17.599 as I always do when I talk to you, really enjoyed 00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:22.199 this. As have I. I'm going to request or demand 00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:25.400 that when we need you again, you will be there. 00:36:26.099 --> 00:36:29.659 I will be there. Absolutely, Margaret. Thank 00:36:29.659 --> 00:36:32.559 you so much, Jack. Really great to see you and 00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:35.179 to hear you. Likewise, and thank you. It was 00:36:35.179 --> 00:36:37.420 a pleasure. This is Margaret Hennock for the 00:36:37.420 --> 00:36:43.059 Steady State Still Standing Watch. Thank you 00:36:43.059 --> 00:36:45.599 for listening to the Steady State Sentinel podcast. 00:36:46.380 --> 00:36:49.659 Don't miss out on more insights and exposés from 00:36:49.659 --> 00:36:53.260 America's premier global security experts. Also, 00:36:53.340 --> 00:36:57.119 subscribe to our Substack at substack .com slash 00:36:57.119 --> 00:37:01.360 at SteadyState1 and follow our social media and 00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:03.380 join us right here next week for another exciting 00:37:03.380 --> 00:37:07.340 edition. The Steady State is a nonprofit organization 00:37:07.340 --> 00:37:10.340 working to sustain our democracy and national 00:37:10.340 --> 00:37:14.130 security. Join us and support our mission by 00:37:14.130 --> 00:37:17.329 visiting www .the steady state .org.