WEBVTT - Generated by artificial intelligence 00:00:03.320 --> 00:00:05.700 The Steady State Sentinel is produced by the 00:00:05.700 --> 00:00:07.679 Steady State, a community of former national 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:09.960 security professionals who spent their careers 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:12.800 safeguarding the United States at home and abroad. 00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:20.199 Today, we continue that mission by staying true 00:00:20.199 --> 00:00:23.640 to our oaths to defend the Constitution, uphold 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:26.500 our democracy, and protect our nation's security. 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:30.260 Join our expert hosts as they interview field 00:00:30.260 --> 00:00:33.380 -tested guests whose unique experiences shed 00:00:33.380 --> 00:00:36.719 light on the crises and challenges facing our 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:54.369 nation. Hello, I'm Peter Mina, a civil rights 00:00:54.369 --> 00:00:56.310 and federal employment law attorney, as well 00:00:56.310 --> 00:00:58.689 as a former Department of Homeland Security official 00:00:58.689 --> 00:01:01.170 who worked to integrate civil rights and civil 00:01:01.170 --> 00:01:03.149 liberties protections in the department's national 00:01:03.149 --> 00:01:05.950 security programs. And you are listening to the 00:01:05.950 --> 00:01:07.989 Steady State Sentinel from the Steady State. 00:01:08.730 --> 00:01:11.469 We are facing an existential threat, growing 00:01:11.469 --> 00:01:14.049 autocracy in the United States. The Steady State 00:01:14.049 --> 00:01:16.150 Sentinel is a place where we and our distinguished 00:01:16.150 --> 00:01:19.280 guests use our national security expertise. to 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:21.540 discuss and analyze the decisions and acts of 00:01:21.540 --> 00:01:24.540 this administration that feed that autocratic 00:01:24.540 --> 00:01:26.879 slide and threaten to supplant the pillars of 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:29.680 our constitutional democracy. Today, we're talking 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:31.700 with Jim O 'Brien, the chair of the board of 00:01:31.700 --> 00:01:33.760 the steady state and a former State Department 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:36.799 official about our organization, its role in 00:01:36.799 --> 00:01:39.700 protecting democracy, the rule of law and national 00:01:39.700 --> 00:01:42.659 security. We'll also talk to Jim about the president's 00:01:42.659 --> 00:01:45.200 transactional foreign policy and what it means 00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:47.909 for. both for folks here at home, as well as 00:01:47.909 --> 00:01:50.469 our traditional partners abroad. Welcome to the 00:01:50.469 --> 00:01:53.969 show, Jim. Thanks for having me, Peter. All right. 00:01:54.010 --> 00:01:56.329 So I think, you know, where I'd like to start 00:01:56.329 --> 00:01:59.530 is basically your origin story. So tell me a 00:01:59.530 --> 00:02:01.650 little bit about why you got into public service 00:02:01.650 --> 00:02:06.209 in the first place. Look, I just think the career 00:02:06.209 --> 00:02:10.430 government service is one of the great innovations 00:02:10.430 --> 00:02:13.550 of the last couple hundred years. The idea that 00:02:13.550 --> 00:02:16.849 there are people who are expected to become expert 00:02:16.849 --> 00:02:22.210 in some areas and to offer their views over long 00:02:22.210 --> 00:02:26.569 careers is, I think, a key part of what keeps 00:02:26.569 --> 00:02:32.330 us free and keeps us safe. It's a real step away 00:02:32.330 --> 00:02:35.849 from personalized bureaucracies, court politics 00:02:35.849 --> 00:02:39.590 that typified a lot of certainly European politics. 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:42.300 you know into the middle of the 19th century 00:02:42.300 --> 00:02:47.340 so that i think explains both where i came from 00:02:47.340 --> 00:02:50.259 and why i'm with the steady state i had all i 00:02:50.259 --> 00:02:52.740 grew up in nebraska for the most part a little 00:02:52.740 --> 00:02:56.199 bit elsewhere in the midwest and i always loved 00:02:56.199 --> 00:03:00.860 reading the stories of people who were working 00:03:00.860 --> 00:03:03.800 to make life better whether in whatever sector 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:06.710 but especially some of the the the folks in the 00:03:06.710 --> 00:03:09.009 government, whether working in foreign policy, 00:03:09.150 --> 00:03:12.169 which is the field I ended up in, justice, which 00:03:12.169 --> 00:03:16.550 was the field I was trained for, or other agencies 00:03:16.550 --> 00:03:20.250 making food safer. You know, I'm from an agricultural 00:03:20.250 --> 00:03:24.330 state. So all of that stuff just struck me as 00:03:24.330 --> 00:03:27.550 a really honorable and exciting way to lead a 00:03:27.550 --> 00:03:33.610 life. As I made my way through school, trying 00:03:33.610 --> 00:03:35.770 to decide if I wanted to teach or if I wanted 00:03:35.770 --> 00:03:39.289 to work. Once I decided that I was going to work 00:03:39.289 --> 00:03:42.530 maybe as a lawyer, I was really only interested 00:03:42.530 --> 00:03:44.750 in doing it as a career government official. 00:03:46.250 --> 00:03:49.750 Well, and as a lawyer as well, obviously that 00:03:49.750 --> 00:03:52.710 story is near and dear to my heart too. But what 00:03:52.710 --> 00:03:55.229 especially drew you to, and you made obviously 00:03:55.229 --> 00:03:57.750 reference to your illustrious career in foreign 00:03:57.750 --> 00:03:59.689 policy, but what drew you to national security 00:03:59.689 --> 00:04:05.490 and diplomacy in particular? Yeah, some of it 00:04:05.490 --> 00:04:08.210 was just the normal accidents. I had a couple 00:04:08.210 --> 00:04:11.189 of professors who had worked in the field and 00:04:11.189 --> 00:04:15.009 felt that it presented a lot of really interesting. 00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:19.519 questions and one of them said to me i think 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:21.939 you'd like the fact that this is a field that 00:04:21.939 --> 00:04:24.800 is collaborative i mean you're often arguing 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:27.319 against people but you're always working with 00:04:27.319 --> 00:04:30.379 a lot of people so it's not just at the state 00:04:30.379 --> 00:04:33.860 department where famously you have both people 00:04:33.860 --> 00:04:36.819 with substantive expertise and regional expertise 00:04:36.819 --> 00:04:39.459 who have to be involved in every decision but 00:04:39.459 --> 00:04:41.660 then i'd be working with people from across the 00:04:41.660 --> 00:04:44.600 intelligence community My second day on the job 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:46.459 at the State Department, I had to go visit the 00:04:46.459 --> 00:04:49.959 CIA and work on some arrangements that they were 00:04:49.959 --> 00:04:54.620 looking to put overseas. And my second day was 00:04:54.620 --> 00:04:56.839 nine days before the fall of the Berlin Wall. 00:04:57.000 --> 00:05:00.160 That tells you how long ago this was. And, you 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:02.120 know, so I just came to love getting to know 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:04.360 people from around the government who were working 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:09.459 on real problems that matter to Americans. And 00:05:09.459 --> 00:05:12.800 that, I think, is the real tradition of the... 00:05:13.209 --> 00:05:17.449 of the career service. And so we've been talking 00:05:17.449 --> 00:05:20.990 a lot about the career service, and I was a career 00:05:20.990 --> 00:05:23.269 servant as well, as are many of our members. 00:05:23.709 --> 00:05:26.389 But you also had the opportunity to serve as 00:05:26.389 --> 00:05:28.949 a political appointee. And I was wondering if 00:05:28.949 --> 00:05:30.930 you could talk a little bit about the dynamic 00:05:30.930 --> 00:05:33.670 between careers and political appointees and 00:05:33.670 --> 00:05:36.290 what it was like to make that transition. Yeah, 00:05:36.310 --> 00:05:38.730 and it sort of happened organically at first, 00:05:38.769 --> 00:05:41.550 and then as a result of an election with a long 00:05:41.550 --> 00:05:44.930 gap. So I was a career civil servant. I started, 00:05:44.970 --> 00:05:47.550 as I said, 10 days before the fall of the Berlin 00:05:47.550 --> 00:05:51.449 Wall. I was going to stay a year in government, 00:05:51.509 --> 00:05:53.930 then go off probably to be a law professor somewhere. 00:05:55.970 --> 00:06:01.430 And instead, I stayed because the work was interesting 00:06:01.430 --> 00:06:05.259 and I thought important. I became the... State 00:06:05.259 --> 00:06:08.279 Department lawyer on the laws of armed conflict, 00:06:08.500 --> 00:06:10.199 a subject that's been on the front page of the 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:13.879 news in the last few days, working with some 00:06:13.879 --> 00:06:16.459 enormously talented lawyers from across the government. 00:06:16.779 --> 00:06:20.680 And Yugoslavia imploded. So this was in the early 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:24.860 90s. And so the atrocities were a part of the 00:06:24.860 --> 00:06:27.779 warfare. And we began to think that this was 00:06:27.779 --> 00:06:30.100 something we should maybe recall crimes when 00:06:30.100 --> 00:06:32.560 they were crimes. We should gather the information 00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:35.019 the U .S. government had. And then ultimately 00:06:35.019 --> 00:06:38.899 that we thought that some accountability for 00:06:38.899 --> 00:06:41.160 the criminals was going to be critical for there 00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:43.480 to be peace. Because the people who commit the 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:45.899 crimes are the people who don't want there to 00:06:45.899 --> 00:06:49.399 be peace. Certainly not a negotiated ceasefire. 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:52.860 And that really was borne out. It made me, I 00:06:52.860 --> 00:06:57.139 became the lead government lawyer on many elements 00:06:57.139 --> 00:06:59.680 of the Yugoslav peace deals in the mid -90s. 00:06:59.699 --> 00:07:01.839 Through all that work, I started to work a lot 00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:04.879 with then UN Ambassador Madeleine Albright and 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:07.600 eventually went to work on her staff. So when 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:10.779 she became secretary, I was her policy advisor 00:07:10.779 --> 00:07:13.920 for her time as secretary. And by the end of 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:17.160 that period, I realized that, in essence, I'd 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:20.160 become much more a policy and political person 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:24.420 than a career lawyer. And I just thought it would 00:07:24.420 --> 00:07:28.860 be uncomfortable for me to work in an administration 00:07:28.860 --> 00:07:31.519 where I knew I would disagree with many of the 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:34.120 political stances, even if they were not ones 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:38.420 that directly affected my portfolio. So it was 00:07:38.420 --> 00:07:41.959 time to leave. Sorry, go ahead. Oh, I was just 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:44.480 going to say, I mean, that's a really interesting 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:46.399 thought because I think about, you know, my own 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:49.720 career where, you know, I was the senior career 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:52.699 official and my immediate supervisor was a political 00:07:52.699 --> 00:07:54.720 appointee, you know, from either administration. 00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:57.319 And, you know, when I think about the senior 00:07:57.319 --> 00:07:59.720 executive service, you know, whether that is 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:03.420 the traditional, you know, civilian staff or, 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:05.000 you know, obviously at the state department, 00:08:05.139 --> 00:08:07.980 you know, senior foreign service officers. And 00:08:07.980 --> 00:08:12.500 I wonder. If more folks at that level don't have 00:08:12.500 --> 00:08:15.060 that similar feeling, I can imagine, particularly 00:08:15.060 --> 00:08:18.560 if you are a senior advisor, a chief of staff, 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:22.480 someone who was so close to the political, how 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:25.980 do you make that transition? That is our charge 00:08:25.980 --> 00:08:28.860 to that next administration that may have a completely 00:08:28.860 --> 00:08:32.820 different viewpoint on your work. Yeah, I actually 00:08:32.820 --> 00:08:35.539 thought. You know, we all play different roles 00:08:35.539 --> 00:08:38.259 in our lives. And I was felt at the State Department 00:08:38.259 --> 00:08:41.779 under the first Bush administration, where I 00:08:41.779 --> 00:08:46.240 was a very junior lawyer. And then the Clinton 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:50.419 administration, the role of the career service, 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:53.240 civil servants like I was, or foreign service 00:08:53.240 --> 00:08:56.500 officers. The role was to try to explain the 00:08:56.500 --> 00:08:59.620 world to the political appointees, what the rules 00:08:59.620 --> 00:09:02.639 were, what the possibilities were, what are things 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:06.600 that can be done. And that conversation between 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:09.120 career people and political people, I think, 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:12.059 is the key thing that needs to be preserved. 00:09:12.460 --> 00:09:16.299 The career people see these issues over time. 00:09:17.139 --> 00:09:21.730 They know how... foreign governments are manipulating, 00:09:22.210 --> 00:09:24.769 you know, lying to political appointees, right? 00:09:24.929 --> 00:09:26.830 And then now I've seen it from both sides. You 00:09:26.830 --> 00:09:29.230 show up as a political appointee from several 00:09:29.230 --> 00:09:31.509 years out in the wilderness. You've got all these 00:09:31.509 --> 00:09:33.309 ideas. You've got some contacts. You're impatient. 00:09:34.009 --> 00:09:36.070 Maybe you had to wait a year and a half to get 00:09:36.070 --> 00:09:38.649 confirmed as I did under the Biden administration. 00:09:39.029 --> 00:09:41.769 So you show up and you're just anxious to get 00:09:41.769 --> 00:09:45.149 stuff done. And the career people say, well, 00:09:45.149 --> 00:09:47.710 you know, when this person told you yes, he really 00:09:47.710 --> 00:09:52.320 meant no. or he's going to do yes, as long as 00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:54.240 you're looking at him. But the instant you get 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:56.860 a new job, and I changed, I was head of sanctions 00:09:56.860 --> 00:09:59.259 at the start of the Biden administration, and 00:09:59.259 --> 00:10:02.620 then became responsible for Europe. They said, 00:10:02.659 --> 00:10:05.460 as soon as you move, this person is going to 00:10:05.460 --> 00:10:08.159 stop doing everything that was promised to you. 00:10:08.620 --> 00:10:11.059 And hearing that from people, I got to say, as 00:10:11.059 --> 00:10:13.100 a political appointee, it's really annoying. 00:10:14.259 --> 00:10:17.120 Sure, I can imagine. You sort of hate it. But 00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:19.490 at the same time, it's critical. You have to 00:10:19.490 --> 00:10:22.190 know that this is what is happening because it 00:10:22.190 --> 00:10:24.929 then changes what's presented to the other side. 00:10:25.090 --> 00:10:28.070 It changes what you're expecting, the benchmarks, 00:10:28.309 --> 00:10:31.070 how often you check back in, what you leave to 00:10:31.070 --> 00:10:35.230 your successors. And my hope is that by being 00:10:35.230 --> 00:10:38.490 an effective political appointee, you can leave 00:10:38.490 --> 00:10:42.610 to the people who come after you some new initiative 00:10:42.610 --> 00:10:49.070 or... effort or tool that they can then use productively. 00:10:49.169 --> 00:10:52.289 So just here's one example. At the end of the 00:10:52.289 --> 00:10:54.710 Clinton administration, I found myself meeting 00:10:54.710 --> 00:10:57.769 often with the then head of the Office of Foreign 00:10:57.769 --> 00:11:00.970 Asset Control at Treasury, OFAC. OFAC was just 00:11:00.970 --> 00:11:06.610 a couple dozen people. It was a very kind of 00:11:06.610 --> 00:11:09.549 simple operation at the time. And we hit on the 00:11:09.549 --> 00:11:12.009 idea that it would be better for the U .S. to 00:11:12.009 --> 00:11:15.690 give up some of our cumbersome trade embargo 00:11:15.690 --> 00:11:18.789 type sanctions. I was very focused on the Balkans. 00:11:18.850 --> 00:11:23.029 Those tended to create a lot of smuggling, right? 00:11:23.110 --> 00:11:25.730 And they allowed the individuals who controlled 00:11:25.730 --> 00:11:28.590 the smuggling to become the oligarchs of the 00:11:28.590 --> 00:11:31.929 region. We thought maybe a lot of those should 00:11:31.929 --> 00:11:34.950 be given up, and we developed a path to give 00:11:34.950 --> 00:11:38.649 them up as the policy warranted. But we should 00:11:38.649 --> 00:11:42.610 focus on finance and try to find a way to get 00:11:42.610 --> 00:11:46.379 at the money. that corrupt political actors were 00:11:46.379 --> 00:11:50.840 using to control their political bases out of 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:54.419 the key capitals that were fomenting the war. 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:59.120 And so we began to develop that idea there. That's 00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:01.720 what I left when I walked out the door in January 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:06.019 2001. My successors then had experience of working 00:12:06.019 --> 00:12:10.100 on financial sanctions that wasn't really a key 00:12:10.100 --> 00:12:13.259 feature of sanctions regimes up to that point. 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:16.899 After 9 -11, the focus on the way that terrorists 00:12:16.899 --> 00:12:20.340 made and moved their money moved front and center 00:12:20.340 --> 00:12:23.639 in the response to 9 -11. That's the kind of 00:12:23.639 --> 00:12:29.120 exchange, even between politically opposed administrations, 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:31.139 but it's the sort of thing that the career people 00:12:31.139 --> 00:12:34.080 carried forward, the OFAC folks who remained 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:38.669 when I left state. were actually able to be right 00:12:38.669 --> 00:12:42.289 in the middle of a really important answer to 00:12:42.289 --> 00:12:45.210 the attacks of 9 -11. And there are other examples. 00:12:45.230 --> 00:12:49.149 I was involved in establishing the Yugoslav criminal 00:12:49.149 --> 00:12:52.450 tribunal. Without that, I think there would have 00:12:52.450 --> 00:12:55.429 been no peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina, because 00:12:55.429 --> 00:12:58.330 it was the criminals who wanted the war to continue. 00:12:59.289 --> 00:13:04.019 But it wasn't. in keeping with much of the incoming 00:13:04.019 --> 00:13:06.879 Bush administration's kind of core views of sovereignty. 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:10.620 They quickly saw though that it was an important 00:13:10.620 --> 00:13:14.840 tool to remove people who otherwise would give 00:13:14.840 --> 00:13:18.500 haven to terrorists or would disrupt other countries 00:13:18.500 --> 00:13:22.529 and make them safe havens for terrorists. So 00:13:22.529 --> 00:13:25.490 they actually took the tool that hadn't existed 00:13:25.490 --> 00:13:28.730 since the end of World War II and began to use 00:13:28.730 --> 00:13:31.250 it in a way that met a very different policy 00:13:31.250 --> 00:13:34.289 environment. That kind of thing can only be done 00:13:34.289 --> 00:13:37.750 by career officials. If everyone walks out the 00:13:37.750 --> 00:13:40.470 door at the end of every administration, you 00:13:40.470 --> 00:13:42.789 don't have that kind of institutional knowledge. 00:13:43.029 --> 00:13:45.610 And I really fear that what's going on today 00:13:45.610 --> 00:13:50.110 with the attacks on the career service means 00:13:50.110 --> 00:13:52.490 we're going to know much less. when it comes 00:13:52.490 --> 00:13:56.970 time to face a new situation later in this administration. 00:13:57.330 --> 00:14:00.070 Well, so you've given me a perfect segue. So 00:14:00.070 --> 00:14:04.049 I think you talked a lot about leaving something 00:14:04.049 --> 00:14:06.570 for your successor to build upon. You talked 00:14:06.570 --> 00:14:09.549 about the transition to following the money. 00:14:09.649 --> 00:14:12.860 And so I guess. I'd love for you to react to 00:14:12.860 --> 00:14:16.740 what is currently happening at the State Department 00:14:16.740 --> 00:14:20.580 at a sort of dismantling of our relationships 00:14:20.580 --> 00:14:24.000 abroad. And what does that mean in the long term? 00:14:24.100 --> 00:14:27.960 How do you get back to an environment where you 00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:32.200 can have that transition, especially when, as 00:14:32.200 --> 00:14:35.639 this administration comes in, rather than looking 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:38.580 to the careers and saying, hey, what's working, 00:14:38.740 --> 00:14:42.940 what's not? well, you must be enemies of whatever 00:14:42.940 --> 00:14:45.580 the administration is doing. I don't want to 00:14:45.580 --> 00:14:47.039 listen to you because you're just going to try 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:49.379 and stop me from doing what I want to do. Yeah, 00:14:49.580 --> 00:14:52.200 it's a great question. I think there are a lot 00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:56.059 of different approaches. I mean, to me, the start 00:14:56.059 --> 00:14:59.840 was the first thing I did, the first thing every 00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:02.519 civil servant does is take an oath to defend 00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:05.720 the Constitution. And that was always enough. 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:10.360 That's the commitment. This administration has 00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:12.580 added a requirement at the State Department of 00:15:12.580 --> 00:15:18.139 fidelity to the secretary. I can't imagine having 00:15:18.139 --> 00:15:21.700 a requirement to follow any political official 00:15:21.700 --> 00:15:25.919 of any party. It should be that you're there 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:28.840 to take care of the Constitution. You do that 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:32.639 by respecting the decisions of the people who 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:35.379 are duly authorized to make decisions. but you 00:15:35.379 --> 00:15:39.039 don't express fidelity or worship for a political 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:42.600 official. That's what they're doing. On top of 00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:45.740 it, this administration has a core of people 00:15:45.740 --> 00:15:48.860 who believe that the career service is the enemy 00:15:48.860 --> 00:15:52.679 of their political movement. Why is that? The 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:54.419 ones I've gotten to know, and I spent much of 00:15:54.419 --> 00:15:58.679 the last year in Europe and talking to people 00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:02.220 there, but the people who come and speak on behalf 00:16:02.220 --> 00:16:07.269 of the administration. often say that institutions 00:16:07.269 --> 00:16:11.350 like the career service or independent research 00:16:11.350 --> 00:16:14.389 organizations, whether universities, civil society, 00:16:14.789 --> 00:16:18.309 law firms, that these are sort of incubators 00:16:18.309 --> 00:16:23.450 for secular ideas or progressive ideas, and therefore 00:16:23.450 --> 00:16:27.070 they have to be attacked. And that viewpoint, 00:16:27.230 --> 00:16:30.309 I think, will take us to the dark ages. So the 00:16:30.309 --> 00:16:33.070 way that they are doing this is by shutting down 00:16:33.940 --> 00:16:37.480 voices of expertise and shutting out the people 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:39.879 who remain. So at the State Department, you see 00:16:39.879 --> 00:16:43.320 a couple things happening. Secretary Rubio showed 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:46.840 up and started criticizing the workforce as woke, 00:16:47.059 --> 00:16:51.659 as intent on carrying out initiatives that undermine 00:16:51.659 --> 00:16:54.159 the security of the American people. All this 00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:56.720 barking like a small dog at his own workforce 00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:01.419 struck me as very strange. And instead, and now 00:17:01.419 --> 00:17:03.960 many of the career people who maybe know the 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:06.859 most about Russia and Ukraine are not included 00:17:06.859 --> 00:17:10.180 in discussions with those places. So you have 00:17:10.180 --> 00:17:13.059 a situation where Russia and Ukraine are talking 00:17:13.059 --> 00:17:17.119 to each other against the backdrop of 30 years 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:20.759 since Ukraine's independence and decades before 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:23.980 of a constant back and forth between Moscow and 00:17:23.980 --> 00:17:27.019 Kiev. and between Moscow and the regions, and 00:17:27.019 --> 00:17:30.039 Kiev and the regions. So they're having a long 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:33.220 -running dialogue, and this administration is 00:17:33.220 --> 00:17:35.940 dropping in people with absolutely no background 00:17:35.940 --> 00:17:39.119 or understanding of what's being said or how 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:41.079 it resonates with the people who are actually 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:45.119 fighting. That's a terrible thing, and that's 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:47.759 a choice the Secretary made. I'm going to add 00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:50.180 one more element to this, which is they're only 00:17:50.180 --> 00:17:54.160 playing with half a deck, because they came in... 00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:57.740 committed, the White House committed them, to 00:17:57.740 --> 00:18:00.779 an idea that white men should be in charge. And 00:18:00.779 --> 00:18:03.140 you have this explicitly from one senior political 00:18:03.140 --> 00:18:06.619 appointee, but the idea that white men were somehow 00:18:06.619 --> 00:18:09.500 discriminated against. Look, when I walked out 00:18:09.500 --> 00:18:12.539 the door, I was in charge of 11 ,000 people in 00:18:12.539 --> 00:18:15.799 Europe, and there was a review of the entire 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:20.660 State Department. There were about 75 ,000 people 00:18:20.660 --> 00:18:22.500 who were working in the State Department at the 00:18:22.500 --> 00:18:26.660 time. 2 ,300 of them are the senior foreign service 00:18:26.660 --> 00:18:31.119 officers, the ones who become ambassadors, office 00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:34.480 directors, all the key people. But maybe, I don't 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:36.940 know, a third of those people are gone. But at 00:18:36.940 --> 00:18:40.400 the time I walked out the door, probably 60%, 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:42.759 two -thirds of those people were white men. That's 00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:46.259 the legacy of old State Department hiring. So 00:18:46.259 --> 00:18:49.279 the most senior ones have been driven out. The 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:52.460 problem is the next cadre, the group, that has 00:18:52.460 --> 00:18:55.500 been in for 20 years or so, hired by Colin Powell, 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:58.400 by Condi Rice, a little bit by Madeleine Albright. 00:18:58.519 --> 00:19:02.640 That group is incredibly talented, and it's ready 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:05.500 to lead, to take over from baby boomers like 00:19:05.500 --> 00:19:09.220 me. Problem is, that group's really diverse. 00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:12.140 It's half, maybe a little more than half women. 00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:16.619 It's about a third not white. It represents America 00:19:16.619 --> 00:19:19.819 in every good way possible. But when I look at 00:19:19.819 --> 00:19:22.390 the State Department website now, I see of the 00:19:22.390 --> 00:19:27.170 top 40 to 45 positions, like 37 of them are white 00:19:27.170 --> 00:19:29.750 guys. I mean, maybe a couple identifies Latin. 00:19:29.829 --> 00:19:35.890 I don't know. But they're not allowing the most 00:19:35.890 --> 00:19:39.289 talented part of their workforce to step up into 00:19:39.289 --> 00:19:43.269 leadership positions. And that is bad for America. 00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:45.700 Because these are the people who are ready to 00:19:45.700 --> 00:19:48.200 lead. And then they're promoting a bunch of the 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:51.200 added answer I get when I ask friends of mine 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:53.960 who's doing this or that job often is like a 00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:56.680 weird shrug. They say, we don't know. They're 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:00.140 dragging these guys out of obscure positions 00:20:00.140 --> 00:20:04.420 and putting them in charge. So we're not going 00:20:04.420 --> 00:20:07.180 to have, when this administration ends, as I 00:20:07.180 --> 00:20:09.960 believe it will, we're not going to have the 00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:14.339 very best people spending this time. learning 00:20:14.339 --> 00:20:17.700 how to work with an avowedly America -first point 00:20:17.700 --> 00:20:19.859 of view so that they can bring knowledge from 00:20:19.859 --> 00:20:22.960 that into the next administration. We're going 00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:27.180 to likely have this sharp cut in expertise because 00:20:27.180 --> 00:20:31.279 of the people who benefited from the war on woke 00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:33.940 are going to realize they're not going to be 00:20:33.940 --> 00:20:36.200 around, so they'll take off. And then you'll 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:39.619 have to somehow recreate the cadre that we need 00:20:39.619 --> 00:20:44.180 going forward. So much to react to there. I mean, 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:47.079 I think the first thing that resonates with me 00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:49.759 as you were talking is, you know, as a senior 00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:53.460 career official, you know, sure, I had my own 00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:55.819 political views. But at the end of the day, my 00:20:55.819 --> 00:20:58.079 responsibility was to execute the mission of 00:20:58.079 --> 00:20:59.740 the Department of Homeland Security as best I 00:20:59.740 --> 00:21:02.839 could. And to your point about, you know, duly 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:07.400 authorized officials, if my boss decided we were 00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:09.799 going to do something that I didn't personally 00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:12.859 disagree with. That's not my job to say, no, 00:21:12.980 --> 00:21:16.019 no, you've got to do it a different way. My job 00:21:16.019 --> 00:21:18.319 is to give the best advice that I can. And then 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:21.420 ultimately, so long as that decision made by 00:21:21.420 --> 00:21:24.440 the duly authorized official is lawful, that's 00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:28.180 your call. And that's what a career employee 00:21:28.180 --> 00:21:31.259 is supposed to do. But we seem to have lost that. 00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:34.640 There's no desire to hear. contrary views there's 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:37.180 no pressure testing anymore so we live in this 00:21:37.180 --> 00:21:39.299 echo chamber and then i think the other thing 00:21:39.299 --> 00:21:43.299 that um that struck me about what you were saying 00:21:43.299 --> 00:21:47.440 is you know i i feel like now as someone of color 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:50.140 who was an executive in the government you know 00:21:50.140 --> 00:21:51.920 now it's just sort of like oh well you're you 00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:55.180 must have been a dei hire um and people don't 00:21:55.180 --> 00:21:58.640 even understand what dei means um let alone how 00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:03.180 to use it um and i you know i think about What 00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:05.980 the president was quoted as saying within the 00:22:05.980 --> 00:22:09.059 last week or so, basically that, you know, the 00:22:09.059 --> 00:22:11.220 civil, you know, civil rights make it hard for 00:22:11.220 --> 00:22:13.740 white people. And, you know, and that's pretty 00:22:13.740 --> 00:22:15.880 much all you need to know about this administration. 00:22:15.940 --> 00:22:19.920 And unfortunately, to your point, it cuts against, 00:22:20.019 --> 00:22:22.980 in my opinion, everything America stands for. 00:22:23.059 --> 00:22:26.940 And to your point, it is particularly in the 00:22:26.940 --> 00:22:30.640 diplomatic corps. You have to have a workforce, 00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:34.539 I would imagine. that reflects not only the country, 00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:36.900 but also the areas where they're going to be 00:22:36.900 --> 00:22:41.059 serving. And just a different set of experiences. 00:22:41.700 --> 00:22:44.359 You know, the old joke about the State Department 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:48.500 was it was male, pale, and Yale. And, you know, 00:22:48.500 --> 00:22:50.579 there probably was a little truth of that. When 00:22:50.579 --> 00:22:53.119 I started in the late 80s, I could look around 00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:57.500 at the people who were the most senior. But, 00:22:57.619 --> 00:23:01.880 you know, By the time, certainly when I came 00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:05.119 back in to the Biden administration and saw the 00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:07.980 people who would begin migrating up, there were 00:23:07.980 --> 00:23:10.799 a couple of changes, some of which might be seen 00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:13.160 as DEI, some of which were not. One of the most 00:23:13.160 --> 00:23:16.160 important changes, and it started a bit under 00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:19.119 Madeleine Albright, but it really took off under 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:21.819 Colin Powell, was the decision to hire people 00:23:21.819 --> 00:23:24.019 who'd had life experience outside the Foreign 00:23:24.019 --> 00:23:27.740 Service. Rather than just taking babies out of 00:23:27.740 --> 00:23:30.779 college or grad school and expecting them to 00:23:30.779 --> 00:23:33.380 stay for 30 years, you began to take people with 00:23:33.380 --> 00:23:37.279 5, 10, 15 years experience in the military or 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:41.299 in another agency or in the private sector. And 00:23:41.299 --> 00:23:45.000 that meant suddenly you were taking in from a 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.819 range of people who weren't considered for membership 00:23:48.819 --> 00:23:54.839 15, 20 years before. The way the room looks is 00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:57.319 different and the way it talks is different because 00:23:57.319 --> 00:24:00.099 you've got people who sat on trading desks. You've 00:24:00.099 --> 00:24:03.059 got people who were in the field as Peace Corps 00:24:03.059 --> 00:24:05.359 volunteers, which was always a kind of a career 00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:09.240 path. But all of these things contribute to a 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:13.619 rich discussion that simply gets lost in the 00:24:13.619 --> 00:24:19.799 way that this tiny group of often avowedly Christian 00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:24.359 nationalists. just want to push their agenda. 00:24:25.180 --> 00:24:27.599 That'll work for a time, but it's quickly going 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:30.559 to run out of steam. And I think this is the 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:33.059 danger for Americans because a lot of, you know, 00:24:33.079 --> 00:24:35.660 Trump is above everything else. He wants to be 00:24:35.660 --> 00:24:37.680 active every day. He wants to be the center of 00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:40.200 attention and he wants to be doing things. But 00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:43.019 a lot of his foreign agenda really builds off 00:24:43.019 --> 00:24:46.279 issues that were inherited from the Biden administration. 00:24:47.579 --> 00:24:51.220 We had basically... outlined a peace deal in 00:24:51.220 --> 00:24:53.740 the South Caucuses. As a lame duck administration, 00:24:54.180 --> 00:24:56.500 we couldn't get that done. Trump, to his credit, 00:24:56.599 --> 00:24:58.940 brought the two presidents to the White House, 00:24:59.019 --> 00:25:00.279 or the president and prime minister to the White 00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:02.920 House, got the outlines of a deal. But now he's 00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:05.480 moved on, and there's a team working on it, but 00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:08.720 he's gone. So I don't know that there'll be what's 00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:11.140 needed to really follow through. And you look 00:25:11.140 --> 00:25:13.400 across the range of topics he's involved in, 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:15.440 the Gaza stuff was all stuff that people were 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:18.170 working on before he came in. Russia, Ukraine, 00:25:18.410 --> 00:25:22.990 the outlines were kind of there. He's kind of 00:25:22.990 --> 00:25:25.769 come to the end of that period. And he's got 00:25:25.769 --> 00:25:30.490 this tiny group that is really committed to its 00:25:30.490 --> 00:25:33.450 issues and won't listen to anyone else. And what 00:25:33.450 --> 00:25:34.869 have we gotten out of that in the last couple 00:25:34.869 --> 00:25:41.009 of weeks? Venezuela and now Greenland. And I 00:25:41.009 --> 00:25:43.670 don't think either of those things. is going 00:25:43.670 --> 00:25:46.349 to do much to make it easier for people to find 00:25:46.349 --> 00:25:50.390 jobs or to build manufacturing capacity in the 00:25:50.390 --> 00:25:53.690 United States. And yet Trump will continue to 00:25:53.690 --> 00:25:56.930 be super energetic just based on what this ever 00:25:56.930 --> 00:26:00.289 smaller group talks to him about over the next 00:26:00.289 --> 00:26:02.650 few years. And I think that's a really dangerous 00:26:02.650 --> 00:26:05.680 environment for the U .S. So I think we have, 00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:08.039 you know, lots of fertile ground to talk about 00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:10.299 based on what you just said regarding Venezuela 00:26:10.299 --> 00:26:13.420 and Greenland. Before we get there, I would love 00:26:13.420 --> 00:26:17.180 to hear more about the steady state. And maybe 00:26:17.180 --> 00:26:20.339 again, sort of as I asked you about your beginnings 00:26:20.339 --> 00:26:23.180 in public service, tell me a little bit about, 00:26:23.180 --> 00:26:25.039 you know, how you came to join the organization 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:28.460 and then ultimately what led you to become chair 00:26:28.460 --> 00:26:32.690 of the board of the steady state? Well, so. I 00:26:32.690 --> 00:26:35.890 had known the founders and the kind of initial 00:26:35.890 --> 00:26:38.109 people, many of whom came out of the intelligence 00:26:38.109 --> 00:26:41.269 community. And we had worked together in different 00:26:41.269 --> 00:26:44.269 capacities. So I was President Clinton's final 00:26:44.269 --> 00:26:47.490 envoy for the Balkans. And that put me in touch 00:26:47.490 --> 00:26:49.849 with a number of people from the Defense Department 00:26:49.849 --> 00:26:54.009 and the intelligence community. Then I was President 00:26:54.009 --> 00:26:57.950 Obama's envoy for hostage recovery, which was 00:26:57.950 --> 00:27:01.950 a... It was a really great organization that 00:27:01.950 --> 00:27:05.890 I didn't create. I was just put into it. But 00:27:05.890 --> 00:27:08.910 that brought together DHS, the intelligence community, 00:27:09.190 --> 00:27:14.490 the FBI, DOD, and others. We managed to get 100 00:27:14.490 --> 00:27:17.150 people home in just over a year and a half, about 00:27:17.150 --> 00:27:21.329 a year and a half. And so from all those relationships, 00:27:21.430 --> 00:27:24.230 when I heard of the Steady States establishment, 00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:28.180 I was really interested and participated in it 00:27:28.180 --> 00:27:32.500 a bit in the Trump administration. When I came 00:27:32.500 --> 00:27:36.799 out this time, I was more convinced than ever 00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:40.079 that it was vitally important to have an example 00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:45.859 of how trained professionals assess threats and 00:27:45.859 --> 00:27:49.319 develop responses to them. I saw that the Trump 00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:52.680 administration was trying to hollow out the institutions 00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:58.359 that provide decent assessment of what's dangerous 00:27:58.359 --> 00:28:03.359 and what are the best approaches to address them. 00:28:03.940 --> 00:28:06.859 So I was in touch again with Steve Cash, the 00:28:06.859 --> 00:28:08.960 executive director, and really the driving force 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:13.140 of the organization, and with a few other people 00:28:13.140 --> 00:28:15.480 who've been deeply involved in it. And as we 00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:19.619 started to talk about the organization, it was 00:28:19.619 --> 00:28:23.900 clear that they felt it would benefit by having 00:28:23.900 --> 00:28:26.859 somebody who didn't come from, say, the harder 00:28:26.859 --> 00:28:29.819 edges of national security, right? You know, 00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:35.099 I wasn't certainly not undercover, but could 00:28:35.099 --> 00:28:39.940 try to talk about how the work that analysts 00:28:39.940 --> 00:28:44.519 do plays well into broader political trends. 00:28:44.779 --> 00:28:48.279 So I'm really enthused. I think one of the things 00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:51.079 the steady state has begun doing is publish an 00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:53.900 assessment of American democracy. And this is 00:28:53.900 --> 00:28:56.819 prepared by people who for their entire careers 00:28:56.819 --> 00:29:00.940 provided assessments of foreign democracies and 00:29:00.940 --> 00:29:05.660 have identified kind of key linchpins and the 00:29:05.660 --> 00:29:09.279 benchmarks to be used in assessing whether a 00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:12.220 democracy is healthy or whether it's under attack. 00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:16.859 The first installment of that was out a couple 00:29:16.859 --> 00:29:19.619 months ago. Another one is due out in about a 00:29:19.619 --> 00:29:23.539 week. So we'll just keep updating that. And part 00:29:23.539 --> 00:29:26.640 of what I like about it is it shows people some 00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:29.859 of the places they can make a difference. Standing 00:29:29.859 --> 00:29:33.579 up for the independence of journalism. That's 00:29:33.579 --> 00:29:35.960 just maybe paying subscriptions and using certain 00:29:35.960 --> 00:29:40.900 websites. assisting with access of journalists 00:29:40.900 --> 00:29:44.759 to cover the news. That's what we're seeing under 00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:47.200 attack in Minnesota right now with the way ISIS 00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:51.180 is trying to silence observers and harass and 00:29:51.180 --> 00:29:55.259 intimidate them. And so identifying those things, 00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:58.720 I think, is a great resource. It can be done 00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:01.920 best by people who have served at DHS like you 00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:05.220 did or elsewhere in the intelligence community. 00:30:05.869 --> 00:30:08.769 And then we try to make that available to the 00:30:08.769 --> 00:30:12.450 public, but also to reporters and other organizations 00:30:12.450 --> 00:30:14.910 that are involved in the fight for democracy. 00:30:35.579 --> 00:30:38.900 get informed and stay informed. So to that end, 00:30:39.019 --> 00:30:41.519 Jim, imagine you're talking to one of your neighbors 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:46.119 in Nebraska. How would you explain why the steady 00:30:46.119 --> 00:30:50.339 state matters? And why should I care if I'm outside 00:30:50.339 --> 00:30:52.619 the beltway? I mean, you and I both were in the 00:30:52.619 --> 00:30:54.460 government for a long time. There are others 00:30:54.460 --> 00:30:57.660 in this community that might be interested, but 00:30:57.660 --> 00:31:00.700 if I have no connection and DC is a million miles 00:31:00.700 --> 00:31:04.779 away, why do I care? Well, I mean, a couple of 00:31:04.779 --> 00:31:07.299 things. Folks in Nebraska are pretty sophisticated. 00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:11.960 My sister house sat for Warren Buffett, the guy, 00:31:12.019 --> 00:31:15.079 when I was growing up, the guy a few doors down 00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:18.420 negotiated the first big grain sale to the Soviet 00:31:18.420 --> 00:31:24.099 Union. And so when I talk to people, when I'm 00:31:24.099 --> 00:31:26.740 back home visiting family, and okay, Omaha is 00:31:26.740 --> 00:31:31.190 kind of a blue dot, but the... The number of 00:31:31.190 --> 00:31:33.690 people who say, yeah, I supported Trump, I liked 00:31:33.690 --> 00:31:38.069 this or that, but then they start to say, we 00:31:38.069 --> 00:31:40.930 sold our soybeans to China and now China's canceled 00:31:40.930 --> 00:31:44.069 the contracts. It'd be good to know what China 00:31:44.069 --> 00:31:47.289 wants from the U .S. and what it expects to get 00:31:47.289 --> 00:31:50.650 from President Trump. And I say, well, there 00:31:50.650 --> 00:31:53.210 are people who are responsible for providing 00:31:53.210 --> 00:31:55.809 those views, but Trump doesn't want to listen 00:31:55.809 --> 00:32:00.509 to them. Or much of the Midwest now, the area 00:32:00.509 --> 00:32:04.509 I'm from, it's food industry. And those are overwhelmingly 00:32:04.509 --> 00:32:09.029 industries that employ recent migrants, many 00:32:09.029 --> 00:32:13.049 of them illegal. So there's a real problem. These 00:32:13.049 --> 00:32:15.950 are small towns that survive only because of 00:32:15.950 --> 00:32:19.809 irregular migration. And ICE has to decide, is 00:32:19.809 --> 00:32:21.809 it going to kill these small towns or is it going 00:32:21.809 --> 00:32:26.579 to find some way? to allow the industries to 00:32:26.579 --> 00:32:31.240 go forward. And so Omaha for a while, I think 00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:34.700 well into the first Trump administration, had 00:32:34.700 --> 00:32:37.900 the highest per capita percentage of refugees. 00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:40.519 They're not migrants, but of people under the 00:32:40.519 --> 00:32:43.519 refugee admissions program. And it's very proud 00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:47.140 of that. So you see a society that not only has 00:32:47.140 --> 00:32:51.099 maybe 20, 25 % Latin population that wasn't there 00:32:51.099 --> 00:32:54.650 when I was growing up, but that is now increasingly 00:32:54.650 --> 00:33:00.089 you've got Somali, Ethiopian, a host of more 00:33:00.089 --> 00:33:04.430 recent refugee populations have moved in as well. 00:33:04.630 --> 00:33:07.869 And so it's a place that's deeply attuned to 00:33:07.869 --> 00:33:10.309 the world for the grain markets, which has always 00:33:10.309 --> 00:33:13.490 been the basis of politics in the Midwest. There's 00:33:13.490 --> 00:33:16.849 a reason the Populist Convention was held, or 00:33:16.849 --> 00:33:21.279 the main first candidate was Nebraskan. But it's 00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:24.920 also now tied by ties of family, by the ties 00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:27.380 of the military base that was there. And those 00:33:27.380 --> 00:33:29.900 people, I think, understand, or they say, they 00:33:29.900 --> 00:33:32.180 understand the importance of having expertise 00:33:32.180 --> 00:33:35.500 and a longer -term perspective on what keeps 00:33:35.500 --> 00:33:39.119 Americans safe and what allows us to prosper. 00:33:39.900 --> 00:33:43.599 That's, I think, the bit of it, just a simple 00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:46.079 respect for people who know things. And that's 00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:48.500 what the study states about. We don't know everything. 00:33:49.099 --> 00:33:51.339 But we know these things and we're willing to 00:33:51.339 --> 00:33:53.460 make those available to our fellow citizens. 00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:56.880 Yeah. And I think and I want to get to, obviously, 00:33:57.019 --> 00:33:59.599 the president's foreign policy. I think the one 00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:02.579 thing that resonates with me that you were talking 00:34:02.579 --> 00:34:05.099 about is, I mean, unfortunately, we almost have 00:34:05.099 --> 00:34:07.559 an attack on knowledge. in our in our country 00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:10.440 these days and that you know that is perceived 00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:12.980 as elitist and something that should be discarded 00:34:12.980 --> 00:34:16.159 and now i feel like we're in a world for example 00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:18.639 you know for all those really savvy educated 00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:22.719 folks in um nebraska or anywhere around the country 00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:26.219 they're basically being gaslit uh you know in 00:34:26.219 --> 00:34:28.920 terms of you know what the realities are versus 00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:31.320 you know the version of the truth that you know 00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:33.219 the administration is trying to push out and 00:34:33.219 --> 00:34:36.079 i think you know as it relates to the you know 00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:39.000 the farmers i think that you know there's there 00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:41.139 was at least at one point sort of an initial 00:34:41.139 --> 00:34:44.079 struggle of you know what do you do do you you 00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:46.340 know advance the immigration agenda or do you 00:34:46.340 --> 00:34:48.619 let farmers you know run their companies and 00:34:48.619 --> 00:34:51.380 do their jobs But now it just seems like that 00:34:51.380 --> 00:34:54.239 has been wholly taken over essentially by the 00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:57.480 Stephen Miller agenda. But that is probably another 00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:02.300 podcast for another day. So let's move on to 00:35:02.300 --> 00:35:05.019 talk a little bit about the president's foreign 00:35:05.019 --> 00:35:07.889 policy. And, you know, one of the things that 00:35:07.889 --> 00:35:10.369 as we were preparing for this episode that you 00:35:10.369 --> 00:35:12.070 and I had talked about that I'd love for you 00:35:12.070 --> 00:35:15.130 to talk to our audience about is your view that 00:35:15.130 --> 00:35:19.429 the president's foreign policy is much more financially 00:35:19.429 --> 00:35:22.650 focused, that it is a, you know, sort of driven 00:35:22.650 --> 00:35:26.190 by, you know, his relationships with, you know, 00:35:26.230 --> 00:35:28.789 titans of industry or, you know, the wealthy 00:35:28.789 --> 00:35:31.130 and powerful sort of around the world and why 00:35:31.130 --> 00:35:35.849 that. Or I guess maybe how that influences the 00:35:35.849 --> 00:35:39.750 strategic decisions that are made. Yeah, well, 00:35:39.829 --> 00:35:43.829 the first thing is, this is a very personal system. 00:35:44.150 --> 00:35:47.409 It's one guy. And if Trump wakes up and says, 00:35:47.489 --> 00:35:49.510 today it's Greenland, tomorrow it's Ukraine, 00:35:49.690 --> 00:35:52.889 the day after it's Nepal, that's what everybody 00:35:52.889 --> 00:35:58.170 runs and chases. That's a terrible way to govern 00:35:58.170 --> 00:36:01.789 the world's greatest country at 350 million people. 00:36:02.380 --> 00:36:06.039 Now, his particular quirks are obviously this 00:36:06.039 --> 00:36:11.159 focus on carbon energy, on opposition to renewables, 00:36:11.179 --> 00:36:15.559 and a real belief that if he can only talk to 00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:19.320 a strongman leader, and it is man is what he 00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:24.860 looks for, that then he can find some good deals. 00:36:25.699 --> 00:36:29.880 But on top of it, he wants to get a piece of 00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:34.460 every deal. So NVIDIA gets to sell chips to China. 00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:37.960 That's a disaster for national security. There 00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:40.579 are only so many chips to go around. He's going 00:36:40.579 --> 00:36:44.699 to take them away from new U .S. companies and 00:36:44.699 --> 00:36:47.880 sell them to China, which will use them to build 00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:50.440 technology that will out -compete the American 00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:54.099 companies. But he wants to get a certain percentage 00:36:54.099 --> 00:36:57.400 of the sales into the U .S. government. Sometimes 00:36:57.400 --> 00:37:00.659 it's more personal. People close to him. are 00:37:00.659 --> 00:37:05.440 the ones who get the sales rights. And it's the 00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:09.860 combination of having this be rooted in the prejudices 00:37:09.860 --> 00:37:13.099 of one guy and his limited knowledge of the world, 00:37:13.139 --> 00:37:18.860 and then his need to measure success by seeing 00:37:18.860 --> 00:37:23.139 that somebody is getting ready cash. This was 00:37:23.139 --> 00:37:26.380 how he ran his business. He wasn't a long -term 00:37:26.380 --> 00:37:30.860 build and allow things to flow businessman. He 00:37:30.860 --> 00:37:35.280 built things if he got paid or he licensed his 00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:40.500 name, got consulting money, took out loans for 00:37:40.500 --> 00:37:44.219 construction. And then if he operated a club, 00:37:44.340 --> 00:37:46.300 he would get paid the membership dues. It was 00:37:46.300 --> 00:37:50.119 always ready cash. That's the only way he understands 00:37:50.119 --> 00:37:54.119 that deals are being done. So every one of his 00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:58.239 peace initiatives includes some element of an 00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:01.559 American firm or potentially firms, sometimes 00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:04.619 close to him, sometimes not, somehow involved 00:38:04.619 --> 00:38:08.699 immediately in an extractive industry or the 00:38:08.699 --> 00:38:11.000 transportation of things, say, across the South 00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:14.619 Caucasus. And this is the way in which he measures 00:38:14.619 --> 00:38:19.219 success. It's a disaster. Like when America, 00:38:19.719 --> 00:38:22.889 in a way, like we had the one... the best resort 00:38:22.889 --> 00:38:26.349 in the world, you know, resort and casino. The 00:38:26.349 --> 00:38:29.190 way that you make money if you run a great resort 00:38:29.190 --> 00:38:31.630 and casino is that people get to come there, 00:38:31.710 --> 00:38:34.309 you provide a safe environment, and you get a 00:38:34.309 --> 00:38:36.989 small piece out of all the activity that happens. 00:38:37.590 --> 00:38:40.389 Trump says he wants a big piece out of whatever 00:38:40.389 --> 00:38:44.969 people do, and he doesn't like it when other 00:38:44.969 --> 00:38:47.969 people do well. He wants to do better himself. 00:38:48.619 --> 00:38:51.199 No wonder he went bankrupt running a casino three 00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:53.619 times, actually four, if you count that. But 00:38:53.619 --> 00:38:58.840 he doesn't understand the basic point of America 00:38:58.840 --> 00:39:02.599 is we do really well when our partners are doing 00:39:02.599 --> 00:39:06.019 very well. And for short bursts, some of our 00:39:06.019 --> 00:39:08.280 partners may even do better than we do. But that 00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:11.239 makes the entire system stable. And then America 00:39:11.239 --> 00:39:13.840 does well. And he can't see that because all 00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:19.280 he sees is that. There have to be individual 00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:22.059 transactions, and he has to know who's making 00:39:22.059 --> 00:39:24.800 the money and approve of that person. And you 00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:27.719 cannot run a global economy that way. So it's 00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:29.820 going to be a disaster, and I think we'll find 00:39:29.820 --> 00:39:34.179 that. Essentially, he's spending down an 80 -year 00:39:34.179 --> 00:39:38.139 inheritance of American power as a global hegemon, 00:39:38.260 --> 00:39:42.389 creating rules that everybody can live by. And 00:39:42.389 --> 00:39:44.469 he's just going to spend that down so a few of 00:39:44.469 --> 00:39:47.210 his buddies or people he can identify make money, 00:39:47.289 --> 00:39:50.369 and then we'll have to recreate a system. And 00:39:50.369 --> 00:39:52.289 so, Jim, at the time, you know, we're recording 00:39:52.289 --> 00:39:54.269 the, you know, the news of the day is obviously 00:39:54.269 --> 00:39:56.710 Venezuela, but you can look at Greenland as well. 00:39:56.929 --> 00:39:58.869 You know, there's been discussion of, you know, 00:39:58.869 --> 00:40:00.909 our intervention there. You know, there's been 00:40:00.909 --> 00:40:05.329 saber rattling about Iran. You know, of course, 00:40:05.329 --> 00:40:08.800 there's Gaza and Ukraine. How do you see... The 00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:11.960 theory that you just laid out is sort of playing 00:40:11.960 --> 00:40:14.539 out in those locations. And then for the folks 00:40:14.539 --> 00:40:16.440 that aren't, you know, his supporters, how does 00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:18.800 that reconcile with this, you know, proposed 00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:22.820 or purported America first mentality? I think 00:40:22.820 --> 00:40:26.119 the reality of all this is time. You know, Trump's 00:40:26.119 --> 00:40:31.179 an old guy. He doesn't talk a lot about building 00:40:31.179 --> 00:40:34.559 a movement behind him or a legacy. He's not like 00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:37.199 Xi or Putin. They talk about getting new organs 00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:42.320 and maybe living to be 150. Trump doesn't. So 00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:47.219 time is the problem for him. He has three years 00:40:47.219 --> 00:40:50.260 left. In all likelihood, this year will be taken 00:40:50.260 --> 00:40:52.719 up with the expectation that Democrats will win 00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:57.079 the House. So he will either need to adjust that 00:40:57.079 --> 00:41:00.119 expectation by taking some dramatic anti -democratic 00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:04.769 step, or he's going to have to just acknowledge 00:41:04.769 --> 00:41:07.789 that his last two years will be spent with a 00:41:07.789 --> 00:41:11.409 more difficult governing situation. Now, why 00:41:11.409 --> 00:41:13.389 do I go into this? It's because he has three 00:41:13.389 --> 00:41:16.650 years. Venezuela will take decades of investment 00:41:16.650 --> 00:41:20.869 before any of its oil can begin to reach global 00:41:20.869 --> 00:41:24.809 markets in appreciable amounts. At its peak, 00:41:24.909 --> 00:41:27.289 it exported three million barrels of oil a day. 00:41:27.769 --> 00:41:30.980 That's a pittance. for what the world needs. 00:41:31.079 --> 00:41:33.480 And it's a kind of specialty oil that can only 00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:37.760 be best used for small purposes. Greenland will 00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:40.000 take years, if not decades, before there's a 00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:44.239 return on any investments. But he only has three 00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:48.380 years. And it's that problem, and you repeat 00:41:48.380 --> 00:41:50.960 that in issue after issue, where he wants to 00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:54.159 make an announcement and claim that he has done 00:41:54.159 --> 00:41:57.039 something that will last 50 years. but he will 00:41:57.039 --> 00:42:00.420 not be around to do the work. And he actually 00:42:00.420 --> 00:42:04.820 is not trying to do the work. So it's on the 00:42:04.820 --> 00:42:08.920 rest of us to decide which of these initiatives 00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:11.480 are in America's long -term interest and get 00:42:11.480 --> 00:42:14.800 behind those. But to begin saying some of these 00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:19.239 things are not, a battle with all of Europe about 00:42:19.239 --> 00:42:22.880 rights to Greenland that the United States already 00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:26.610 has. because we already have the ability to invest 00:42:26.610 --> 00:42:28.949 as much as we want and provide security there. 00:42:29.469 --> 00:42:32.630 Denmark and Greenland have agreed to that. So 00:42:32.630 --> 00:42:35.309 we could just go and begin doing the real work 00:42:35.309 --> 00:42:38.409 to make Americans more prosperous, or we can 00:42:38.409 --> 00:42:41.469 have this battle about a Sharpie on a map that 00:42:41.469 --> 00:42:45.449 Trump wants to have. That will not, in the time 00:42:45.449 --> 00:42:48.929 he has left, that will not produce a single job 00:42:48.929 --> 00:42:52.940 or manufacturing opportunity for Americans. And 00:42:52.940 --> 00:42:56.199 that, I think, has to become the focus of conversation 00:42:56.199 --> 00:43:01.360 as we work through the next year or two. Which 00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:04.619 of the many things he talks about can make life 00:43:04.619 --> 00:43:08.699 better soon? And which one is he just a salesman 00:43:08.699 --> 00:43:12.159 offering a bright and beautiful future that's 00:43:12.159 --> 00:43:16.539 on a shining hill far away from here? And that's 00:43:16.539 --> 00:43:18.340 the place where I think even people who support 00:43:18.340 --> 00:43:21.420 him. ought to start getting impatient to see 00:43:21.420 --> 00:43:24.500 the receipts now, not just hear about them from 00:43:24.500 --> 00:43:28.579 him. So I think with that, I have, you know, 00:43:28.579 --> 00:43:32.239 a couple of things to think about. And then I 00:43:32.239 --> 00:43:34.219 want to talk about, you know, sort of what people 00:43:34.219 --> 00:43:38.000 should do now in this moment. And so I guess 00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:43.699 my thoughts are, how do you see or, you know, 00:43:43.739 --> 00:43:50.139 maybe given the realities of the impact of America's 00:43:50.139 --> 00:43:52.480 current instability as well as its foreign policy. 00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:56.280 So both at home and abroad, what does that mean 00:43:56.280 --> 00:44:01.300 for our place in the world as well as for a potential 00:44:01.300 --> 00:44:04.559 slide or maybe even a current slide into authoritarianism? 00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:07.780 And so, you know, sort of with that as sort of 00:44:07.780 --> 00:44:10.320 the backdrop or maybe a little bit of the question 00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:14.940 to be answered, how do we meet? How do we meet 00:44:14.940 --> 00:44:19.030 the moment? What do we do? I think, I mean, everyone 00:44:19.030 --> 00:44:21.829 should just do the bit they can, right? Everything 00:44:21.829 --> 00:44:24.989 is helpful. So I think standing up for independent 00:44:24.989 --> 00:44:26.849 journalists, because they're the ones who tell 00:44:26.849 --> 00:44:29.349 us what's going on. I think helping each other 00:44:29.349 --> 00:44:32.030 out. People just ought to help each other, because 00:44:32.030 --> 00:44:34.809 we've got a government that is intent on punishing 00:44:34.809 --> 00:44:38.429 people it sees as its enemies. And some of them 00:44:38.429 --> 00:44:41.449 are migrants, and some of them are Americans 00:44:41.449 --> 00:44:44.429 who don't like what they do. That's an environment 00:44:44.429 --> 00:44:48.539 of cruelty. You add to it the kind of rhetorical 00:44:48.539 --> 00:44:51.579 cruelty that we hear from this administration. 00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:56.139 They're constantly abusing people, demeaning 00:44:56.139 --> 00:44:59.260 people, posting memes that are polarizing and 00:44:59.260 --> 00:45:02.880 divisive. And I think having people see one another 00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:05.579 as people and people who need help every so often 00:45:05.579 --> 00:45:08.940 is one of the most political acts we can all 00:45:08.940 --> 00:45:11.400 take right now. Just to say we're decent folks 00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:13.880 who look out for each other. in whatever way 00:45:13.880 --> 00:45:17.360 you do that at home. And then the final bit is 00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:19.559 just back to this point about what is the steady 00:45:19.559 --> 00:45:22.579 state. Steady state are a bunch of ordinary Americans 00:45:22.579 --> 00:45:26.500 who went to work because we wanted to work on 00:45:26.500 --> 00:45:30.019 issues that mattered to the community as a whole. 00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:34.940 The knowledge that's built up in institutions 00:45:34.940 --> 00:45:40.980 that give people that mandate is so sacred. I 00:45:40.980 --> 00:45:44.340 was talking to a European leader about a year 00:45:44.340 --> 00:45:47.639 ago now who looked at the firings of scientists 00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:50.159 and the plans to close down parts of the weather 00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:53.960 service. Some of that got rolled back. But, you 00:45:53.960 --> 00:45:57.039 know, the research into maritime issues and elsewhere. 00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:01.599 This is a seagoing nation. He said, most of our 00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:03.739 cooperation with you is based on the fact that 00:46:03.739 --> 00:46:06.320 you have the best scientists in the world talking 00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:08.800 to us about what's happening on the oceans. If 00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:11.670 you fire these people, We don't have a reason 00:46:11.670 --> 00:46:14.269 to give you priority over China anymore. I mean, 00:46:14.289 --> 00:46:17.110 we like you more, but, you know, China is a better 00:46:17.110 --> 00:46:19.690 partner in many respects. That's the kind of 00:46:19.690 --> 00:46:22.289 slide that's going to come because we're turning 00:46:22.289 --> 00:46:26.010 our backs on knowledge, but we're also saying 00:46:26.010 --> 00:46:29.510 we don't want to have these institutions of independent 00:46:29.510 --> 00:46:31.730 expertise. And so one thing people can stand 00:46:31.730 --> 00:46:34.650 up for are the experts in their community, the 00:46:34.650 --> 00:46:36.949 local social service office, the local agricultural 00:46:36.949 --> 00:46:40.170 extension office. You know, universities that 00:46:40.170 --> 00:46:43.369 do the research that have made America so prosperous 00:46:43.369 --> 00:46:46.389 and great with whatever problems we've got. So 00:46:46.389 --> 00:46:49.210 I think just those three things are things anyone 00:46:49.210 --> 00:46:52.949 can do as part of their life. But it all comes 00:46:52.949 --> 00:46:55.949 back to just be decent because the polarization 00:46:55.949 --> 00:47:00.650 that has given us this government rests on all 00:47:00.650 --> 00:47:03.199 of us. And I think it weighs us all down. So 00:47:03.199 --> 00:47:05.679 the more we find ways to come together in different 00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:09.039 forms, that's the best answer to what we're being 00:47:09.039 --> 00:47:12.639 subjected to. Amen. Couldn't agree more. And, 00:47:12.739 --> 00:47:15.900 you know, as a proud member, put me in, coach. 00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:20.460 So thank you. Why don't we leave it right there? 00:47:20.519 --> 00:47:23.099 I think that's a perfect place to end. So thank 00:47:23.099 --> 00:47:25.639 you so much for joining us, Jim. What a great 00:47:25.639 --> 00:47:30.440 conversation. I think you really educated and 00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:32.880 illuminated our audience in so many different 00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:35.719 ways. And I was wondering if you could maybe 00:47:35.719 --> 00:47:38.260 tell our audience, you know. If there's anything 00:47:38.260 --> 00:47:40.480 in particular you're working on as chair or maybe 00:47:40.480 --> 00:47:43.659 outside of your role as a steady state that you 00:47:43.659 --> 00:47:45.639 might want to tell people about and maybe where 00:47:45.639 --> 00:47:48.260 they could find you. As we've all been talking 00:47:48.260 --> 00:47:52.280 about, where are you on the socials? Almost nowhere. 00:47:53.780 --> 00:47:55.639 Spoken like a true member of the steady state. 00:47:55.920 --> 00:47:59.619 There we go. So with the steady state, I think 00:47:59.619 --> 00:48:03.159 it's important that we be available as a resource 00:48:03.159 --> 00:48:06.280 and shape the discussion, particularly about 00:48:06.280 --> 00:48:10.869 how. America should approach threats to our people. 00:48:11.449 --> 00:48:15.150 Because we're seeing a government that wants 00:48:15.150 --> 00:48:19.210 to victimize the weak rather than focus on real 00:48:19.210 --> 00:48:21.989 threats. And I think within the steady state, 00:48:22.130 --> 00:48:25.349 we've got some exceptional people who provide 00:48:25.349 --> 00:48:29.369 security for leading corporations, leading resorts. 00:48:29.510 --> 00:48:31.929 And they look at this and say, you know, we need 00:48:31.929 --> 00:48:34.610 a little more help from our government. And so 00:48:34.610 --> 00:48:38.610 the steady state. should really be a voice in 00:48:38.610 --> 00:48:42.050 how the United States can do this in a way that 00:48:42.050 --> 00:48:45.670 keeps people safe and creates opportunities for 00:48:45.670 --> 00:48:49.050 our companies. Beyond that, I'm doing a bit of 00:48:49.050 --> 00:48:53.070 work with a few think tanks, a group called the 00:48:53.070 --> 00:48:57.809 European Council on Foreign Relations and fellowship 00:48:57.809 --> 00:49:00.929 at an institute looking at the human sciences. 00:49:00.989 --> 00:49:06.440 So I get to run out from just policy. And, you 00:49:06.440 --> 00:49:08.280 know, I'll try to figure out how I can have my 00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:11.000 own voice in some of these discussions. But again, 00:49:11.119 --> 00:49:13.739 I love working in institutions and I'm happy 00:49:13.739 --> 00:49:16.920 to be part of an institution that's trying to 00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:20.300 put views out in the world rather than just my 00:49:20.300 --> 00:49:24.000 own byline. Excellent. Well, so if you like what 00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:26.820 you heard on today's show, please subscribe to 00:49:26.820 --> 00:49:29.059 the Steady States Sentinel podcast wherever you 00:49:29.059 --> 00:49:31.590 get your podcasts. And please give us a five 00:49:31.590 --> 00:49:33.909 -star review on Google. Those subscriptions and 00:49:33.909 --> 00:49:36.289 five -star reviews help us get this important 00:49:36.289 --> 00:49:38.550 content out to the widest possible audience. 00:49:39.210 --> 00:49:41.889 The Steady State Sentinel is for you, our listeners, 00:49:42.070 --> 00:49:44.710 and we want to hear from you. Please join us 00:49:44.710 --> 00:49:47.050 for our next episode so that you can stay engaged 00:49:47.050 --> 00:49:50.389 and stay informed. Remember, protecting our democracy 00:49:50.389 --> 00:49:53.630 isn't a spectator sport. This is Peter Mina for 00:49:53.630 --> 00:49:56.090 the Steady State Sentinel. Still standing watch. 00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:02.179 Thank you for listening to the Steady State Sentinel 00:50:02.179 --> 00:50:05.659 podcast. Don't miss out on more insights and 00:50:05.659 --> 00:50:08.440 exposes from America's premier global security 00:50:08.440 --> 00:50:13.039 experts. 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