The Steady State Sentinel is produced by the
Steady State, a community of former national
security professionals who spent their careers
safeguarding the United States at home and abroad.
Today, we continue that mission by staying true
to our oaths to defend the Constitution, uphold
our democracy, and protect our nation's security.
Join our expert hosts as they interview field
-tested guests whose unique experiences shed
light on the crises and challenges facing our
nation. Welcome to the Steady State Sentinel.
I'm Lauren Anderson. I think it's fair to start
with something most people will agree with. Our
immigration system is broken and has been broken
for a long time. What's harder and more important
to talk about is what happens in the meantime
while people are still living their lives inside
that broken system. Especially when rules change
midstream and the predictability breaks down.
In recent weeks and months, we've seen pauses
and slowdowns in asylum processing and related
work authorization. On paper, that just sounds
technical. In real life, it means people who
are here legally, who have been vetted, and who
follow the rules suddenly can't work, they can't
plan, and they can't support themselves or their
families. Delay becomes denial in practice, even
if no one ever says the word no. But this isn't
just about immigrants. When systems shift from
being rule -bound to feeling discretionary, immigrants,
their neighbors, employers trying to comply,
and those charged with enforcing the law all
feel the strain. That's the space we're going
to be in today. Not politics, but process. legitimacy,
and the human consequences when stability disappears.
This matters because immigration is where we
see in real time whether our institutions and
the leaders who run them are keeping their promises
to us and what happens when they don't. The lessons
don't stay contained in one policy area. They
shape how people relate to government, to employers,
to each other. and to the idea that following
the rules protects us. I'm joined today by Amy
Peck. Amy has spent more than three decades practicing
immigration law, representing individuals, families,
and businesses, and working directly with, and
often negotiating with, agencies like the U .S.
Citizenship and Immigration Services, Immigration
and Customs Enforcement, and the State Department.
In addition to her legal practice, she serves
on the Board of Trustees of the American Immigration
Council and has long been involved in pro bono
asylum work, giving her a perspective that spans
policy, enforcement, compliance, and lived human
impact. And after that rather serious opening,
Amy, I've given a little of your background,
but I would love for you to share what... What
drove you to become involved in immigration and
labor law and why have you chosen to stay in
it for more than three decades? Hello, Lauren.
That is a great question. And I would like to
say when I started out as a young attorney, I
was as clueless as anybody and just trying all
sorts of different kinds of law. And one of the
partners at the firm that I was working with.
gave me a pro bono asylum case. And he basically
was like, yeah, do the best you can. Don't tell
anybody you're doing this because it's, you know,
it's not a very career worthy case. And, you
know, just do your best. And I took that case
and I won it. And I was hooked on immigration.
I felt like I was having a direct impact. to
this individual. I felt good about what I was
working on and I never looked back. You know,
it was not that cool to be an immigration lawyer
in the 80s and 90s. It's probably still not cool,
but I... That's awesome. And it so impresses
me that that's something we share, actually,
is we've had a passion for what we do, and we're
not driven solely by financial remuneration or
anything else, any of those external sorts of
things that reinforce people. It comes much more
from within, and it sounds like that's what you're
saying as well. Absolutely. It's something that
at the end of my career, I'll look back and I
feel good about what I've done. I've helped families.
I've helped businesses, individuals. And, you
know, I feel like what I do has value. It's important
work. So, yeah, I feel I feel that I'm contributing.
Thanks for that. And thanks for sharing a little
bit of your own story. And I think you'd agree
that one of the biggest concerns we Americans
share is a lack of trust. in our government,
in our leaders, and in each other. And I think
we conflate people with their functions, and
that makes trust even harder to build. And you
and I met about a decade ago, and I'm just going
to let it kind of trail off with three dots at
that point and let you run with that. Lauren's
teeing up a story. Well, to put it bluntly, I
did not like Lauren when I met her, even though
I didn't know her. Lauren was introduced to me
as a former FBI agent and leader. And I decided
immediately that I did not like her. And I assumed
we shared no values. And then as a career law
enforcement officer, we would have nothing in
common. So I was a cold shoulder and I might
have even been rude and I apologize for that.
But my distrust of the FBI. really came from
some experiences that I had after 9 -11. And,
you know, I'd like to explain, you know, I think
we all remember where we were when we learned
our country was under attack on 9 -11. I know
exactly where I was. I was dropping my kids off
at the sitter's house and the TV was on and they
were Russian immigrants. And we stood in stunned
silence as we watched those planes hit the Twin
Towers. And I remember crying with them. I remember
being shocked. I remember the profound sense
of loss and vulnerability. And I was practicing
immigration law at the time. I remember feeling
dread that the immigrants, you know, all immigrants
were going to be blamed, even though it was just
a few bad people who were involved. I remember
the whole country kind of pulling together. And
as a lawyer, I was in agreement that we should
have stronger systems and, you know, that there
were some failures by the agencies that needed
to change. But what happened and why I didn't
like Lauren when I met her, even though I didn't
know her. I had a number of Muslim clients and
the FBI started putting surveillance on Muslim
places of worship and kind of harassing my Muslim
clients with really no basis other than the fact
that they were Muslim. And I, you know, went
head to head with them. And there are some other
parts of that story, which I'm not going to go
into. But it really eroded my trust in the government
because they were coming after my. my people,
my clients who didn't do anything wrong. So back
to Lauren, even though I didn't like her, Lauren
persisted, which if you know anything about Lauren,
she is very persistent. And after a while, I
really came to understand that I was wrong to
dislike her based on what she did for a living.
And I really think about that, Lauren, a lot.
You know, when I find myself rushing to judge
someone, that I don't know well, and I remember
that I didn't like you and you're an awesome
person, and, you know, that I was wrong. And
so, you know, I will also say it cuts both ways.
You know, these days when I'm out meeting new
people and I say I'm an immigration lawyer, I
know they don't like me sometimes either. No,
that's absolutely fair. And that's real for what's
going on in a lot of parts of the country. Yep.
So anyway, so I, you know, I really think about
how we met. And when I'm rushing to judge somebody
based on what they do, I really try to step back.
You know, I'm human. I'm not always perfect at
it, but I do my best. As I say to people, the
day I'm perfect is the day I'm dead. So I think
we can look at it that way. You know, and I think,
too, that our history matters. Because it really
helps explain what's happening right now and
why trust, once it's eroded, is so hard to rebuild.
And you and I were speaking recently and kind
of moving into some of the things happening now.
And I shared with you that I have a young woman
Afghan who I'm mentoring, who was on the last
flight out of about 100 girls and young women
out of Afghanistan in August of 21. And she had
an interview, obviously I'm not going to say
where, in the last week to get her green card
because everything else has been satisfied. And
they said, well, thanks for coming in, but your
green card is on hold indefinitely. And it's
created such a sense of anxiety for her. She's
been doing everything by the book, checking in
whenever she was asked, following all the rules.
She is permitted to work. And now she's had this
setback. And so I'm curious, you know, what are
you seeing right now with individuals, families
and employers that you work with? There's definitely
an erosion of the rule of law. And, you know,
I say that and I understand not everybody knows
what the rule of law is. And so let me give sort
of an example. When you are watching football,
which this time of year, everybody's watching
football. There are clear rules around the game
of football. Everyone knows, you know, the players
know. And if you're watching, you know that if
you get the ball into the end zone, it's a touchdown
and it's six points. And then after that, you
get an extra point. So this is like the rule
of law. The rules are transparent. They're accessible,
so everyone knows what they are. And they're
supposed to be equally enforced against both
teams and independently judged, you know, by
the refs and umpires. And then you get instant
replay if you don't like something that happens,
right? It's like due process, like, hey, you
know, this person really was down on the five
and they didn't really make it into end zone.
So everybody knows what the rules are. But imagine
if during that football game, all of a sudden
the refs started saying, well, I'm going to give
you six points if you cross the 20. And I'm only
going to do that for some people. And the other
team, you have to get into the end zone. That's
similar to the erosion of the rule of law. And
for immigrants and immigration, we're seeing
erosion of the rule of law because there is so
much. chaos and upheaval around what's happening.
And, you know, we don't always know from day
to day what's going to happen, what the administration,
the White House is going to say or do. We don't
know what the rules are. A lot of the policies
are being taken down from the websites. A lot
of the things that we've relied upon for years
and years as guidance. are being taken away as
resources. And so now it's sort of like, guess
what we're thinking? That is an erosion of the
rule of law, and it's terrifying. In my career,
I've never seen it at this level. Wow. That's
saying quite a lot, given your multiple decades
and given what happened after 9 -11. And you
and I have talked about that a little bit, about
how some of the things that were... put in place
and some of the rights that were suspended were
necessary for a brief period of time. But you're
saying that you've never seen anything like that.
And that's, that's stark. That is really stark.
And I, it's hard. I mean, if we feel this way,
imagine the person who's trying to do things
the right way, not even speaking about those
who have not followed the appropriate path. And
there are plenty of those, but. it makes it extremely
difficult. And I think kind of what you're getting
to is that we're talking about discretion versus
arbitrariness. And every system that we're in,
certainly every legal system, I think you would
agree, requires discretion. Human judgment applied
to individual circumstances, but still in the
context of the law. But to me, it seems like
there's a bright line between discretion. and
arbitrariness and when people can't predict what
compliance looks like then how can they have
any trust in the system and how can we who aren't
even in the system have trust in it and how can
we support those who might be in our lives in
one way or another that are in the midst of this
so for you you know why do you feel predictability
is so critical to a legal system and, you know,
what happens when the rules are no longer protecting
people, but they seem to be very arbitrary, to
use that word again, and going back to even your
football analysis, you know, how do you distinguish
between necessary discretion and the kind of
arbitrariness that we're beginning to see across
the spectrum? Boy, you know, We're still figuring
this out day to day. But I will say it's very
stressful for everybody, for businesses, for
individuals, for families, because you don't
know from day to day what the rules are going
to be. So again, back to this idea of rule of
law. the rule of law, which we like to feel that
we are part of a country that is founded on rule
of law. And then think about the football where
the game is changing mid -game. And that's what's
happening in immigration. So from day to day,
individuals may not understand if they're going
to have the ability to work or not based on rules
that are being very quickly rolled out. There's
a category called H -1Bs. And on Friday at 5
p .m. a month or so ago, it was in September,
the Trump administration rolled out a rule that
said basically you have to pay $100 ,000 if you
want to sponsor a new H -1B. And it's effective
the following Monday. Now, I was on vacation
that weekend, and my phone started to blow up.
And everybody's trying to understand, what does
this mean? The announcement was very poorly worded.
Clients are, you know, overseas, and they're
like, do we have to come back? And so they're
scrambling around trying to get on flights to
get back into the U .S. because we thought maybe
if they were here, the $100 ,000 didn't apply.
Well, then over the weekend, the Trump administration
tweeted different things, posted different things,
and everything conflicted. And at the end of
the day, you know, litigation ensues. And we're
trying to figure out still to this day what exactly
it means. But it was utter chaos around this
particular visa category. And if you change,
you know, if you look at different visa categories.
around temporary protected status or asylum,
the rules keep changing very quickly. And from
one day to the next, we're not sure what is going
to be prioritized, what we're going to see when
we walk into maybe an asylum interview or things
like that. So as a lawyer, my career has been
trying to advise on what the law is, despite
what people think, you know, lawyers are trying
to uphold the law and advise on the law. But
when you don't have a basis for the rule of law
to advise on, that everything starts breaking
down the trust in the systems, the trust in the
lawyers, you know, because people think, well,
you know, don't you know what you're doing? Well,
I'd like to think I do. But if, you know, if
the rules are clear to me, then, you know, then
it becomes chaos and arbitrary decision making,
which is not what our country is about. But that's
sort of where we're headed. So I think building
on that, too, one of the things I find interesting
and always have about your practicing is that
you have worked, whether it's pro bono or paid
work in the context of your law firm. You have
worked with individuals to groups, to organizations,
to corporations, and obviously we're going to
respect privacy, but corporations whose names
our listeners would recognize. So I'm curious
if you can talk a little bit about how that ripple
effect might be different in each of those categories.
And when we were speaking recently, you mentioned
a particular client who was a... entrepreneur,
business owner. I think you said he owned a restaurant.
So I'm curious if you could comment on what you're
seeing in each of those groups that you work
with. Yeah. So fascinating, you know, when you
talk to people about their understanding of immigration
and it seems very abstract until something happens
to them. And through my career, I would get Multiple
calls, you know, usually one a week to this day
from somebody who will say they usually start
off establishing their values. Oh, I don't like
illegal immigration. Thank you. But my guy who
works for me is great and I'd like him legalized.
And, you know, I've heard that if I had a dollar.
for every time I heard that, honestly. You know,
I'd buy you a casita in France. I'm signing off.
Let's collect those dollars so I can get a casita
in France. It's fascinating that people feel
the need to establish that they are law enforcement
minded, but by George, when it comes to their
guy, they're a good guy. Well, this story that
I told you was my client received what's called
an I -9 audit. And so I -9s are the form everyone
fills out when they go to work. They establish
who you are and that you can work. And then the
government audits those. And in the course of
an audit, if they find out that people are not
working lawfully, they make you fire those people.
Well, this client had three Mexican restaurants,
and two of them received audits. And at the end
of the day, these employees had been working
for him for 15, 20 years. 30 employees and shut
down one of his restaurants. And he called me
in tears because he didn't know, I would like
to say, he did not know that these individuals
were not lawfully working. And he had appropriate
paperwork for them, but they were borrowing identities
from their families or various, one of them had
a Social Security card that just didn't exist,
but it looked real. So things like that happened.
But he called me in tears and he said, what am
I going to do? I can't find people to work in
the kitchen. These were fantastic employees.
And he said, how could this happen? And I said,
well, the Trump administration promised to do
more I -9 audits. They did the first time. under
the first administration. It's within their legal
right to do more I -9 audits. And he said, these
are good people. I don't understand why the Trump
administration is going after these people when
they are good people. I thought the Trump administration
was only going to go after criminals. And I...
I will tell you, I had a moment where I heard
it and I said, you know, what the Trump administration
said was that immigrants are criminals. So they
equated undocumented people with criminality,
which is not what the law is. The law says that
if you're undocumented, that's a civil violation
and you can get deported. OK, but you're not.
criminal under state law. Like you haven't, you
haven't assaulted somebody, you haven't murdered
anybody, you haven't, you know, been a tax cheat
or anything like that. And so, and he didn't
understand that. He thought that the administration
was only targeting criminals when in fact the
administration to me was always very clear. that
if you're undocumented or even in a status that
we don't like, we're going to send you back to
your home country. And the Trump administration
is doing exactly what they said they'd do. And
did he share with you who he had voted for by
chance? He voted for Mr. Trump. And wished that
he could take his vote back because of what personally
happened to him. You know, and I think, you know,
of course, they lost their business. So I found
it fascinating, you know. And it's horrible because
I think that that one story encapsulates, as
does the situation with the young Afghan woman.
These are real people and real consequences.
who are doing the right thing, who are following
the rules, who have done what everyone has asked
of them. And while I think we can all agree that
people who are breaking laws, committing violent
acts, hurting people, they need to go. I think
you and I would be in complete agreement on that.
Absolutely. But when we talk about people like
your client and this other young woman, that's...
That's not fair. That's not what I understand
our country to be about. That's not what I understand
our democracy to be about or our respect for
the rule of law. To me, that flies in the face
of it. I don't know how you feel about that.
You know, I sympathize with people. We have to
do something about our immigration laws so we
don't have... this continuous problem with people
in an undocumented status who can't legalize.
And I will say that is ultimately what the issue
is. We have over decades, decades, starting even
before the Reagan era, every administration has
sort of turned a semi -blind eye to people coming
into the U .S. who are working in an undocumented
status and are lost. then trap you here you can't
leave once you're here because the ways the laws
are set up because once you leave you can't return
um ever maybe or maybe um after 10 years if you're
lucky so it traps you here well that's a dumb
law let's change the law but congress has failed
democrats have failed republicans have failed
they have both failed to deal with the problem
and so now We do have this issue with people
who are here in an undocumented status. And I
think it's indefensible mostly to Congress. Like,
stop being babies and do something about these
laws and do something that makes sense. You know,
the dreamers that came, they can't even fix that,
right? The people who came as young kids. And
I'm going to say one other thing as long as I'm
on a roll. Go for it. Trump administration is
doing something that makes no sense to me. They
are so focused on quotas and metrics that this
idea that if you are here in an undocumented
status or even in a status that they don't like,
that we are going to get rid of you. And they
have quotas. So this quota is supposed to be
met by Immigration Customs Enforcement either
daily or weekly. A certain number of people need
to be arrested and deported. Every other administration
until now has had law enforcement priorities.
And Lauren, you're a law enforcement person.
Law enforcement does not have unlimited resources.
You don't have the resources to go after everybody,
right? Absolutely not. You have to prioritize
what you're going to do based on what your mission
is and what's the greatest risk in terms of people's
security. Yeah, let's target pedophiles. Let's
target traffickers. Let's target, you know, drug
gangs. But this administration says we are targeting
a number, quotas, which is why. We are seeing
indiscriminate arrests. They go into public.
They're pulling people off the street. Why? Because
they're trying to hit a number. So when you have
no law enforcement priorities, then everyone
is a priority. And that creates unstable systems
and, quite frankly, A law enforcement, I would
say, a problem, right? Because if you are a real
criminal, you're going to have the resources
to hide, right? Yep. Right? You know that, Lauren.
Oh, I know that. I know that. Absolutely. And
I, you know, another thing going to what you're
talking about is the limited resources. And as
you know, they've been pulling. Very large percentages,
raising from 25 to 45 percent of FBI agents are
being pulled off national security matters, cyber
matters, white collar crime to go out and arrest
people with ICE. And going to one of the things
that you mentioned in terms of stats, just in
the last few days, another statistical requirement
came out and the administration has decreed that.
They are to search for 200 people a month to
denaturalize. These are people who are already
American citizens who have gone through the process,
been naturalized. And I believe the number I
saw that over the last eight years, it was only
125 people denaturalized and they want to get
200 denaturalized per month. That's another example
of a quota. I haven't heard that. And thank you.
And now that is. Astounding. A number that is
arbitrary. Like, why? So what what law enforcement
is going to do, because the number is the target,
is start sort of indiscriminately pulling these
cases. And if anything is, you know, I don't
know, like if they have to hit the number there.
OK, let me give you an example. They just popped
into my head. Think of a factory production line
and you have two factories, one where you have
a quota of 2000 widgets a day and one where there's
no quota. It's like build the best product you
can. Right. Which one are you going to buy and
which one is the one where they're going to,
you know, cut costs and say, oh, that one fell
on the floor and is damaged. I don't care. Right.
Like when you have a quota as a goal, you're
going to cut corners. You're going to do things
that you wouldn't normally otherwise do because
you're trying to save your job and not get fired
and meet the quota. So it's it's I think it's
not good law enforcement. I think it's not good
policy. And it's quite frankly shocking because
they're humans, you know. at the end of the paper,
you know, these are human beings. I agree. And
one of the things we've talked about, and I think
this tees it up perfectly, my mouth is twisting,
is the human cost inside the systems. And you've
just spoken to that. And, you know, I recently
heard from a young FBI agent, I say young in
terms of tenure in the Bureau. who reached out
in a very, very discreet manner because of deep
concerns they have about where the FBI is going.
But what was perhaps even more interesting and
also heartening in its own kind of perverse way
is that this agent shared that the sense of low
morale, which is rampant in the FBI, that constant
changing of priorities, we're going to reorganize
again. Oh, wait, no, last week we're going to
reorganize and now we're going to focus on this
and not do that. And this agent shared that her
counterparts in other agencies, including ICE,
were saying that they felt demoralized, that
they were upset with how things were going. And
they don't themselves like the way the enforcement
operations are rolling out. And that speaks volumes.
relationships with on the other side right in
uscis are are not all of course there are some
people who are very rah -rah and and like this
but most of the career people are are deeply
unhappy and and ultimately are not um aligned
with this sort of extreme um you know, the extreme
views and the extreme measures being taken. And,
you know, the career ICE people are really kind
of up in arms because they are, again, not all,
but the ones who I think have been around long
enough to see this job through multiple administrations
don't feel that they are effectively doing their
job when the goal is just to pick up anybody
who looks like an immigrant and throw them in
jail. One of the goals is to fill the detention
centers. That's a goal, right? We're all paying
for that. Detention centers are being built and
reopened at the cost of millions and millions
of dollars a year. And, you know, to me, it's
like, well, if you're going to deport them, why
do you have to detain them for all this time?
But that's, you know, they want to fill the detention
centers, too. My guess is I don't want to start
a conspiracy theory here, but my guess is there
are private contracts. Yep. Somebody's making
going to be making copious amounts of money on
this. And that's unfortunately on the lives and
the well -being of. a lot of people, some of
whom deserve to be in detention and many of whom
don't. And, you know, you mentioned the fact
that you've seen this through multiple administrations,
and we talked about some of the aftermath of
9 -11. And when you look at everything that's
happening today, and we've touched on this a
little bit, but from a broader sense, you know,
what warning signs are you seeing? What things
are you seeing that trouble you deeply? if there
are any, and do you have ongoing and long range
concerns based on that? Well, I do. You know,
I was thinking back about 9 -11 and how, even
though it was such a deeply, deeply troubling
event and, you know, and it involved people who
were foreign born, right? Which hit my heart,
right? But the American people pulled together.
I remember feeling a love and connection to my
fellow Americans during that time, you know,
and feeling like the flag was a symbol of togetherness.
all, everybody in this country. And I felt like
we really pulled together in a way after 9 -11
that was very beautiful. And again, some of the
things that happened afterwards, I didn't agree
with. But, you know, in that moment, we had a
president who, you know, said some very, I think,
things that brought... the people together. Now
we have a president who purposely divides us
and pits us against each other. And say what
you want, and this is not a political broadcast,
but we do objectively have a president who is
pitting us against each other, even in his Christmas
message, which I found very distressing. I want
to be uplifted by a Christmas message, but it
was very divisive. And so it's harder to find
common ground. And this is what I find troubling
because there's so much demonizing of immigration.
And I had somebody once say to me, oh, you know,
recently, you know, oh, you're an immigration
lawyer. So illegal immigration. I'm like, why
did you assume illegal immigration when I said
the word immigration? Well, aren't they all illegal?
No, they are not. You know, we really demonized,
you know, this this beautiful thing that our
country is founded on, you know, and most of
us can trace back our families only two or three
generations, some more. But, you know, the first
lady's an immigrant. So so it's very troubling
to me. Yeah, I agree with you. I am on one side
of my family. I am a second generation. My grandparents
immigrated. And, you know, I'm sure it's true
for most of the people who will be listening
to this. And I'm so glad that you're sounding
those positive notes, too, and about how we know
we both feel the same way, how deeply we love
this country and the people we live alongside
and the friends that we have. And we've talked
about a lot of the things that. are not going
so well and that can be better. And, you know,
I would like for everybody who's listening to
us to get some thoughts from you, because I think
the average person, despite those things that
kind of fly out of people's mouths, I think the
average person wants to like who's living next
door to them and wants to see themselves succeed,
their family succeed, and the people they know
succeed. So kind of considering that, you know,
is there one thing that you would ask that people
notice or do differently in this context going
forward? I want to have some positivity. I want
some ideas. They can be conceptual. They can
be concrete. But I'd love to know what you think
each of us can do to improve this situation going
forward. I have a couple ideas here. So, and
I have to start with the story that, Lauren,
you know it's going to start this way. I was
in a dive bar a couple weeks ago, of course.
I was listening to a bluegrass band. And a man
next to me struck up a conversation. And, you
know, I'm just trying to enjoy the band, right?
And he's like, what do you do? And I'm like,
oh, do I go there? And I'm like, okay, why not?
And I said, well, I'm an immigration lawyer.
And he immediately said, how can you justify
being around those criminals? You know, none
of them pay taxes and they're taking my job.
And you know what? I squared my shoulders and
I looked him in the eye and I said, you know
what? Those undocumented people. probably pay
more taxes than our billionaires do. They pay
property tax. They pay sales tax. Most have withholdings
taken out, Medicare and Social Security, that
they will never collect. And by the way, sir,
everything you think you know about immigration
is a lie. And I really thought I was going to
get punched. Wow. I'd have been ducking at that
point, Amy. But I was like, I've had it, right?
Like, listen. I'm just here listening to a band,
and he asked me the question. So I'm just challenging
people to challenge their own assumptions, right?
Like, learn more. And the moral of my story is,
you know, you can't learn about this from the
news, either left or right, right? You can't
learn from... Either of the news sources, you
have to do some research. Go to credible sources.
The American Immigration Council has really good
research articles if you want to learn something.
Or ask an immigration lawyer. Ask me. So do your
research and assume everything you know is wrong.
It's not a good place to start. It's wrong. I
do that, you know, anymore when I walk into a
situation that I don't know much about. I'll
be like, you know what? I can't really trust,
you know, the media, either side anymore. So
I just try to go in with an open mind. And then
just let's start demanding that Congress actually
do their job and stop being absolute wimps about
doing immigration reform. Like, it's ridiculous.
that they have not tried to update the rules
in 30 years. It's ridiculous. So those are the,
you know, we need to stop being manipulated by
the rhetoric. That's the last thing. When you
start hearing rhetoric that demonizes immigrants,
just step back and say, who's manipulating me
and why? You know, so those are the things that
I would suggest right offhand. Okay. Well, thanks
for that. And thank you so much, Amy, for joining
me today and for your honesty about what you're
seeing. I know this is going to leave our listeners
with a lot to think about. And I'm grateful,
Amy, for all you and your colleagues do every
day. And we're a better nation for your work.
So thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you. And
thank you, our listeners. For joining us, this
is Lauren Anderson for the Steady State Sentinel
Still Standing Watch. Thank you for listening
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