WEBVTT - Generated by artificial intelligence - any errors are unintentional. 00:00:03.320 --> 00:00:05.700 The Steady State Sentinel is produced by the 00:00:05.700 --> 00:00:07.679 Steady State, a community of former national 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:09.960 security professionals who spent their careers 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:12.800 safeguarding the United States at home and abroad. 00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:20.199 Today, we continue that mission by staying true 00:00:20.199 --> 00:00:23.640 to our oaths to defend the Constitution, uphold 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:26.500 our democracy, and protect our nation's security. 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:30.260 Join our expert hosts as they interview field 00:00:30.260 --> 00:00:33.380 -tested guests whose unique experiences shed 00:00:33.380 --> 00:00:36.719 light on the crises and challenges facing our 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:53.859 nation. Welcome to the Steady State Sentinel. 00:00:54.219 --> 00:00:58.149 I'm Lauren Anderson. I think it's fair to start 00:00:58.149 --> 00:01:01.350 with something most people will agree with. Our 00:01:01.350 --> 00:01:04.930 immigration system is broken and has been broken 00:01:04.930 --> 00:01:08.750 for a long time. What's harder and more important 00:01:08.750 --> 00:01:10.890 to talk about is what happens in the meantime 00:01:10.890 --> 00:01:13.989 while people are still living their lives inside 00:01:13.989 --> 00:01:18.469 that broken system. Especially when rules change 00:01:18.469 --> 00:01:21.590 midstream and the predictability breaks down. 00:01:22.700 --> 00:01:25.760 In recent weeks and months, we've seen pauses 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:29.340 and slowdowns in asylum processing and related 00:01:29.340 --> 00:01:33.280 work authorization. On paper, that just sounds 00:01:33.280 --> 00:01:37.159 technical. In real life, it means people who 00:01:37.159 --> 00:01:40.340 are here legally, who have been vetted, and who 00:01:40.340 --> 00:01:43.859 follow the rules suddenly can't work, they can't 00:01:43.859 --> 00:01:46.840 plan, and they can't support themselves or their 00:01:46.840 --> 00:01:51.219 families. Delay becomes denial in practice, even 00:01:51.219 --> 00:01:55.879 if no one ever says the word no. But this isn't 00:01:55.879 --> 00:01:59.560 just about immigrants. When systems shift from 00:01:59.560 --> 00:02:03.780 being rule -bound to feeling discretionary, immigrants, 00:02:04.099 --> 00:02:06.819 their neighbors, employers trying to comply, 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:10.280 and those charged with enforcing the law all 00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:14.120 feel the strain. That's the space we're going 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:18.430 to be in today. Not politics, but process. legitimacy, 00:02:18.689 --> 00:02:22.030 and the human consequences when stability disappears. 00:02:23.090 --> 00:02:26.289 This matters because immigration is where we 00:02:26.289 --> 00:02:30.349 see in real time whether our institutions and 00:02:30.349 --> 00:02:33.389 the leaders who run them are keeping their promises 00:02:33.389 --> 00:02:37.949 to us and what happens when they don't. The lessons 00:02:37.949 --> 00:02:41.689 don't stay contained in one policy area. They 00:02:41.689 --> 00:02:45.009 shape how people relate to government, to employers, 00:02:45.250 --> 00:02:49.030 to each other. and to the idea that following 00:02:49.030 --> 00:02:53.110 the rules protects us. I'm joined today by Amy 00:02:53.110 --> 00:02:56.629 Peck. Amy has spent more than three decades practicing 00:02:56.629 --> 00:03:00.409 immigration law, representing individuals, families, 00:03:00.550 --> 00:03:03.789 and businesses, and working directly with, and 00:03:03.789 --> 00:03:07.430 often negotiating with, agencies like the U .S. 00:03:07.449 --> 00:03:10.610 Citizenship and Immigration Services, Immigration 00:03:10.610 --> 00:03:13.330 and Customs Enforcement, and the State Department. 00:03:14.599 --> 00:03:17.060 In addition to her legal practice, she serves 00:03:17.060 --> 00:03:20.039 on the Board of Trustees of the American Immigration 00:03:20.039 --> 00:03:23.439 Council and has long been involved in pro bono 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:27.039 asylum work, giving her a perspective that spans 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:32.620 policy, enforcement, compliance, and lived human 00:03:32.620 --> 00:03:37.199 impact. And after that rather serious opening, 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:39.719 Amy, I've given a little of your background, 00:03:39.780 --> 00:03:43.810 but I would love for you to share what... What 00:03:43.810 --> 00:03:46.629 drove you to become involved in immigration and 00:03:46.629 --> 00:03:48.949 labor law and why have you chosen to stay in 00:03:48.949 --> 00:03:52.909 it for more than three decades? Hello, Lauren. 00:03:53.030 --> 00:03:56.949 That is a great question. And I would like to 00:03:56.949 --> 00:04:00.250 say when I started out as a young attorney, I 00:04:00.250 --> 00:04:03.330 was as clueless as anybody and just trying all 00:04:03.330 --> 00:04:06.909 sorts of different kinds of law. And one of the 00:04:06.909 --> 00:04:09.610 partners at the firm that I was working with. 00:04:10.090 --> 00:04:14.949 gave me a pro bono asylum case. And he basically 00:04:14.949 --> 00:04:19.370 was like, yeah, do the best you can. Don't tell 00:04:19.370 --> 00:04:22.050 anybody you're doing this because it's, you know, 00:04:22.050 --> 00:04:27.889 it's not a very career worthy case. And, you 00:04:27.889 --> 00:04:30.550 know, just do your best. And I took that case 00:04:30.550 --> 00:04:34.610 and I won it. And I was hooked on immigration. 00:04:34.750 --> 00:04:38.899 I felt like I was having a direct impact. to 00:04:38.899 --> 00:04:42.279 this individual. I felt good about what I was 00:04:42.279 --> 00:04:46.339 working on and I never looked back. You know, 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:49.459 it was not that cool to be an immigration lawyer 00:04:49.459 --> 00:04:56.160 in the 80s and 90s. It's probably still not cool, 00:04:56.300 --> 00:05:04.240 but I... That's awesome. And it so impresses 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:06.439 me that that's something we share, actually, 00:05:06.500 --> 00:05:08.939 is we've had a passion for what we do, and we're 00:05:08.939 --> 00:05:13.379 not driven solely by financial remuneration or 00:05:13.379 --> 00:05:16.779 anything else, any of those external sorts of 00:05:16.779 --> 00:05:19.379 things that reinforce people. It comes much more 00:05:19.379 --> 00:05:22.199 from within, and it sounds like that's what you're 00:05:22.199 --> 00:05:26.319 saying as well. Absolutely. It's something that 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:29.970 at the end of my career, I'll look back and I 00:05:29.970 --> 00:05:34.290 feel good about what I've done. I've helped families. 00:05:34.329 --> 00:05:38.350 I've helped businesses, individuals. And, you 00:05:38.350 --> 00:05:42.370 know, I feel like what I do has value. It's important 00:05:42.370 --> 00:05:47.069 work. So, yeah, I feel I feel that I'm contributing. 00:05:48.290 --> 00:05:50.850 Thanks for that. And thanks for sharing a little 00:05:50.850 --> 00:05:53.490 bit of your own story. And I think you'd agree 00:05:53.490 --> 00:05:57.290 that one of the biggest concerns we Americans 00:05:57.290 --> 00:06:00.540 share is a lack of trust. in our government, 00:06:00.740 --> 00:06:04.279 in our leaders, and in each other. And I think 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:06.860 we conflate people with their functions, and 00:06:06.860 --> 00:06:11.399 that makes trust even harder to build. And you 00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:13.660 and I met about a decade ago, and I'm just going 00:06:13.660 --> 00:06:15.800 to let it kind of trail off with three dots at 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:21.360 that point and let you run with that. Lauren's 00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:24.519 teeing up a story. Well, to put it bluntly, I 00:06:24.519 --> 00:06:27.579 did not like Lauren when I met her, even though 00:06:27.579 --> 00:06:31.379 I didn't know her. Lauren was introduced to me 00:06:31.379 --> 00:06:35.319 as a former FBI agent and leader. And I decided 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:38.899 immediately that I did not like her. And I assumed 00:06:38.899 --> 00:06:42.160 we shared no values. And then as a career law 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:45.220 enforcement officer, we would have nothing in 00:06:45.220 --> 00:06:49.920 common. So I was a cold shoulder and I might 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:52.300 have even been rude and I apologize for that. 00:06:53.220 --> 00:06:57.980 But my distrust of the FBI. really came from 00:06:57.980 --> 00:07:01.740 some experiences that I had after 9 -11. And, 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:06.560 you know, I'd like to explain, you know, I think 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:10.600 we all remember where we were when we learned 00:07:10.600 --> 00:07:13.439 our country was under attack on 9 -11. I know 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:17.360 exactly where I was. I was dropping my kids off 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:20.360 at the sitter's house and the TV was on and they 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:23.819 were Russian immigrants. And we stood in stunned 00:07:23.819 --> 00:07:26.870 silence as we watched those planes hit the Twin 00:07:26.870 --> 00:07:31.529 Towers. And I remember crying with them. I remember 00:07:31.529 --> 00:07:34.769 being shocked. I remember the profound sense 00:07:34.769 --> 00:07:38.170 of loss and vulnerability. And I was practicing 00:07:38.170 --> 00:07:41.389 immigration law at the time. I remember feeling 00:07:41.389 --> 00:07:46.389 dread that the immigrants, you know, all immigrants 00:07:46.389 --> 00:07:50.129 were going to be blamed, even though it was just 00:07:50.129 --> 00:07:53.829 a few bad people who were involved. I remember 00:07:53.829 --> 00:07:56.370 the whole country kind of pulling together. And 00:07:56.370 --> 00:08:00.389 as a lawyer, I was in agreement that we should 00:08:00.389 --> 00:08:03.149 have stronger systems and, you know, that there 00:08:03.149 --> 00:08:05.430 were some failures by the agencies that needed 00:08:05.430 --> 00:08:09.209 to change. But what happened and why I didn't 00:08:09.209 --> 00:08:12.250 like Lauren when I met her, even though I didn't 00:08:12.250 --> 00:08:17.759 know her. I had a number of Muslim clients and 00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:21.819 the FBI started putting surveillance on Muslim 00:08:21.819 --> 00:08:24.939 places of worship and kind of harassing my Muslim 00:08:24.939 --> 00:08:28.639 clients with really no basis other than the fact 00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:31.740 that they were Muslim. And I, you know, went 00:08:31.740 --> 00:08:33.559 head to head with them. And there are some other 00:08:33.559 --> 00:08:35.399 parts of that story, which I'm not going to go 00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:39.340 into. But it really eroded my trust in the government 00:08:39.340 --> 00:08:42.620 because they were coming after my. my people, 00:08:42.659 --> 00:08:46.220 my clients who didn't do anything wrong. So back 00:08:46.220 --> 00:08:48.919 to Lauren, even though I didn't like her, Lauren 00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:51.820 persisted, which if you know anything about Lauren, 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:57.039 she is very persistent. And after a while, I 00:08:57.039 --> 00:08:59.759 really came to understand that I was wrong to 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:02.460 dislike her based on what she did for a living. 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:06.179 And I really think about that, Lauren, a lot. 00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:10.080 You know, when I find myself rushing to judge 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:13.840 someone, that I don't know well, and I remember 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:16.139 that I didn't like you and you're an awesome 00:09:16.139 --> 00:09:19.360 person, and, you know, that I was wrong. And 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:23.700 so, you know, I will also say it cuts both ways. 00:09:23.759 --> 00:09:26.500 You know, these days when I'm out meeting new 00:09:26.500 --> 00:09:28.539 people and I say I'm an immigration lawyer, I 00:09:28.539 --> 00:09:32.820 know they don't like me sometimes either. No, 00:09:32.940 --> 00:09:36.419 that's absolutely fair. And that's real for what's 00:09:36.419 --> 00:09:39.679 going on in a lot of parts of the country. Yep. 00:09:40.740 --> 00:09:44.759 So anyway, so I, you know, I really think about 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:48.759 how we met. And when I'm rushing to judge somebody 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:52.419 based on what they do, I really try to step back. 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:54.759 You know, I'm human. I'm not always perfect at 00:09:54.759 --> 00:09:57.740 it, but I do my best. As I say to people, the 00:09:57.740 --> 00:10:00.919 day I'm perfect is the day I'm dead. So I think 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:03.840 we can look at it that way. You know, and I think, 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:06.570 too, that our history matters. Because it really 00:10:06.570 --> 00:10:08.909 helps explain what's happening right now and 00:10:08.909 --> 00:10:13.809 why trust, once it's eroded, is so hard to rebuild. 00:10:14.070 --> 00:10:17.710 And you and I were speaking recently and kind 00:10:17.710 --> 00:10:19.450 of moving into some of the things happening now. 00:10:19.549 --> 00:10:22.870 And I shared with you that I have a young woman 00:10:22.870 --> 00:10:27.129 Afghan who I'm mentoring, who was on the last 00:10:27.129 --> 00:10:29.450 flight out of about 100 girls and young women 00:10:29.450 --> 00:10:33.759 out of Afghanistan in August of 21. And she had 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:35.639 an interview, obviously I'm not going to say 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:38.960 where, in the last week to get her green card 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:42.039 because everything else has been satisfied. And 00:10:42.039 --> 00:10:45.100 they said, well, thanks for coming in, but your 00:10:45.100 --> 00:10:48.919 green card is on hold indefinitely. And it's 00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:52.639 created such a sense of anxiety for her. She's 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:55.559 been doing everything by the book, checking in 00:10:55.559 --> 00:10:57.740 whenever she was asked, following all the rules. 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:00.789 She is permitted to work. And now she's had this 00:11:00.789 --> 00:11:04.070 setback. And so I'm curious, you know, what are 00:11:04.070 --> 00:11:07.269 you seeing right now with individuals, families 00:11:07.269 --> 00:11:12.210 and employers that you work with? There's definitely 00:11:12.210 --> 00:11:17.769 an erosion of the rule of law. And, you know, 00:11:17.789 --> 00:11:20.990 I say that and I understand not everybody knows 00:11:20.990 --> 00:11:23.549 what the rule of law is. And so let me give sort 00:11:23.549 --> 00:11:27.669 of an example. When you are watching football, 00:11:28.009 --> 00:11:29.970 which this time of year, everybody's watching 00:11:29.970 --> 00:11:34.090 football. There are clear rules around the game 00:11:34.090 --> 00:11:38.350 of football. Everyone knows, you know, the players 00:11:38.350 --> 00:11:40.970 know. And if you're watching, you know that if 00:11:40.970 --> 00:11:43.429 you get the ball into the end zone, it's a touchdown 00:11:43.429 --> 00:11:46.470 and it's six points. And then after that, you 00:11:46.470 --> 00:11:49.330 get an extra point. So this is like the rule 00:11:49.330 --> 00:11:53.320 of law. The rules are transparent. They're accessible, 00:11:53.500 --> 00:11:56.940 so everyone knows what they are. And they're 00:11:56.940 --> 00:11:59.820 supposed to be equally enforced against both 00:11:59.820 --> 00:12:03.120 teams and independently judged, you know, by 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:06.139 the refs and umpires. And then you get instant 00:12:06.139 --> 00:12:08.080 replay if you don't like something that happens, 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:10.580 right? It's like due process, like, hey, you 00:12:10.580 --> 00:12:14.019 know, this person really was down on the five 00:12:14.019 --> 00:12:17.159 and they didn't really make it into end zone. 00:12:17.259 --> 00:12:22.289 So everybody knows what the rules are. But imagine 00:12:22.289 --> 00:12:25.190 if during that football game, all of a sudden 00:12:25.190 --> 00:12:27.450 the refs started saying, well, I'm going to give 00:12:27.450 --> 00:12:30.470 you six points if you cross the 20. And I'm only 00:12:30.470 --> 00:12:33.370 going to do that for some people. And the other 00:12:33.370 --> 00:12:36.070 team, you have to get into the end zone. That's 00:12:36.070 --> 00:12:39.830 similar to the erosion of the rule of law. And 00:12:39.830 --> 00:12:42.690 for immigrants and immigration, we're seeing 00:12:42.690 --> 00:12:47.309 erosion of the rule of law because there is so 00:12:47.309 --> 00:12:52.009 much. chaos and upheaval around what's happening. 00:12:52.470 --> 00:12:56.190 And, you know, we don't always know from day 00:12:56.190 --> 00:12:59.529 to day what's going to happen, what the administration, 00:13:00.129 --> 00:13:04.870 the White House is going to say or do. We don't 00:13:04.870 --> 00:13:09.470 know what the rules are. A lot of the policies 00:13:09.470 --> 00:13:13.269 are being taken down from the websites. A lot 00:13:13.269 --> 00:13:16.389 of the things that we've relied upon for years 00:13:16.389 --> 00:13:19.840 and years as guidance. are being taken away as 00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:23.100 resources. And so now it's sort of like, guess 00:13:23.100 --> 00:13:26.440 what we're thinking? That is an erosion of the 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:29.419 rule of law, and it's terrifying. In my career, 00:13:29.500 --> 00:13:33.120 I've never seen it at this level. Wow. That's 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:35.539 saying quite a lot, given your multiple decades 00:13:35.539 --> 00:13:38.460 and given what happened after 9 -11. And you 00:13:38.460 --> 00:13:40.159 and I have talked about that a little bit, about 00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:43.570 how some of the things that were... put in place 00:13:43.570 --> 00:13:46.750 and some of the rights that were suspended were 00:13:46.750 --> 00:13:50.490 necessary for a brief period of time. But you're 00:13:50.490 --> 00:13:52.590 saying that you've never seen anything like that. 00:13:52.610 --> 00:13:57.929 And that's, that's stark. That is really stark. 00:13:58.129 --> 00:14:03.110 And I, it's hard. I mean, if we feel this way, 00:14:03.210 --> 00:14:05.389 imagine the person who's trying to do things 00:14:05.389 --> 00:14:07.330 the right way, not even speaking about those 00:14:07.330 --> 00:14:10.269 who have not followed the appropriate path. And 00:14:10.269 --> 00:14:14.139 there are plenty of those, but. it makes it extremely 00:14:14.139 --> 00:14:16.679 difficult. And I think kind of what you're getting 00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:20.820 to is that we're talking about discretion versus 00:14:20.820 --> 00:14:25.460 arbitrariness. And every system that we're in, 00:14:25.500 --> 00:14:27.379 certainly every legal system, I think you would 00:14:27.379 --> 00:14:30.980 agree, requires discretion. Human judgment applied 00:14:30.980 --> 00:14:33.340 to individual circumstances, but still in the 00:14:33.340 --> 00:14:36.620 context of the law. But to me, it seems like 00:14:36.620 --> 00:14:40.819 there's a bright line between discretion. and 00:14:40.819 --> 00:14:43.580 arbitrariness and when people can't predict what 00:14:43.580 --> 00:14:46.179 compliance looks like then how can they have 00:14:46.179 --> 00:14:48.679 any trust in the system and how can we who aren't 00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:51.639 even in the system have trust in it and how can 00:14:51.639 --> 00:14:54.840 we support those who might be in our lives in 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:57.100 one way or another that are in the midst of this 00:14:57.100 --> 00:15:01.529 so for you you know why do you feel predictability 00:15:01.529 --> 00:15:05.549 is so critical to a legal system and, you know, 00:15:05.570 --> 00:15:08.330 what happens when the rules are no longer protecting 00:15:08.330 --> 00:15:12.230 people, but they seem to be very arbitrary, to 00:15:12.230 --> 00:15:14.409 use that word again, and going back to even your 00:15:14.409 --> 00:15:17.629 football analysis, you know, how do you distinguish 00:15:17.629 --> 00:15:20.210 between necessary discretion and the kind of 00:15:20.210 --> 00:15:23.509 arbitrariness that we're beginning to see across 00:15:23.509 --> 00:15:30.279 the spectrum? Boy, you know, We're still figuring 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:37.440 this out day to day. But I will say it's very 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:42.419 stressful for everybody, for businesses, for 00:15:42.419 --> 00:15:45.759 individuals, for families, because you don't 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:49.539 know from day to day what the rules are going 00:15:49.539 --> 00:15:53.720 to be. So again, back to this idea of rule of 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:58.139 law. the rule of law, which we like to feel that 00:15:58.139 --> 00:16:02.820 we are part of a country that is founded on rule 00:16:02.820 --> 00:16:05.679 of law. And then think about the football where 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:10.299 the game is changing mid -game. And that's what's 00:16:10.299 --> 00:16:13.259 happening in immigration. So from day to day, 00:16:13.460 --> 00:16:19.080 individuals may not understand if they're going 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:23.480 to have the ability to work or not based on rules 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:27.379 that are being very quickly rolled out. There's 00:16:27.379 --> 00:16:32.720 a category called H -1Bs. And on Friday at 5 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:36.559 p .m. a month or so ago, it was in September, 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:40.100 the Trump administration rolled out a rule that 00:16:40.100 --> 00:16:45.059 said basically you have to pay $100 ,000 if you 00:16:45.059 --> 00:16:49.279 want to sponsor a new H -1B. And it's effective 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:52.500 the following Monday. Now, I was on vacation 00:16:52.500 --> 00:16:56.139 that weekend, and my phone started to blow up. 00:16:56.460 --> 00:16:58.960 And everybody's trying to understand, what does 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:02.899 this mean? The announcement was very poorly worded. 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:06.680 Clients are, you know, overseas, and they're 00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:08.900 like, do we have to come back? And so they're 00:17:08.900 --> 00:17:11.380 scrambling around trying to get on flights to 00:17:11.380 --> 00:17:13.299 get back into the U .S. because we thought maybe 00:17:13.299 --> 00:17:15.859 if they were here, the $100 ,000 didn't apply. 00:17:16.539 --> 00:17:18.640 Well, then over the weekend, the Trump administration 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:21.680 tweeted different things, posted different things, 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:25.200 and everything conflicted. And at the end of 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:29.079 the day, you know, litigation ensues. And we're 00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:32.440 trying to figure out still to this day what exactly 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:37.839 it means. But it was utter chaos around this 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:41.359 particular visa category. And if you change, 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:44.460 you know, if you look at different visa categories. 00:17:45.130 --> 00:17:47.970 around temporary protected status or asylum, 00:17:48.210 --> 00:17:53.190 the rules keep changing very quickly. And from 00:17:53.190 --> 00:17:56.970 one day to the next, we're not sure what is going 00:17:56.970 --> 00:18:01.630 to be prioritized, what we're going to see when 00:18:01.630 --> 00:18:04.369 we walk into maybe an asylum interview or things 00:18:04.369 --> 00:18:11.809 like that. So as a lawyer, my career has been 00:18:12.539 --> 00:18:16.700 trying to advise on what the law is, despite 00:18:16.700 --> 00:18:19.599 what people think, you know, lawyers are trying 00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:22.740 to uphold the law and advise on the law. But 00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:26.900 when you don't have a basis for the rule of law 00:18:26.900 --> 00:18:30.859 to advise on, that everything starts breaking 00:18:30.859 --> 00:18:33.700 down the trust in the systems, the trust in the 00:18:33.700 --> 00:18:35.920 lawyers, you know, because people think, well, 00:18:35.980 --> 00:18:38.039 you know, don't you know what you're doing? Well, 00:18:38.259 --> 00:18:42.859 I'd like to think I do. But if, you know, if 00:18:42.859 --> 00:18:45.940 the rules are clear to me, then, you know, then 00:18:45.940 --> 00:18:49.940 it becomes chaos and arbitrary decision making, 00:18:50.059 --> 00:18:54.420 which is not what our country is about. But that's 00:18:54.420 --> 00:18:58.200 sort of where we're headed. So I think building 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:00.259 on that, too, one of the things I find interesting 00:19:00.259 --> 00:19:02.500 and always have about your practicing is that 00:19:02.500 --> 00:19:05.339 you have worked, whether it's pro bono or paid 00:19:05.339 --> 00:19:09.980 work in the context of your law firm. You have 00:19:09.980 --> 00:19:12.900 worked with individuals to groups, to organizations, 00:19:13.140 --> 00:19:15.720 to corporations, and obviously we're going to 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:18.440 respect privacy, but corporations whose names 00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:21.660 our listeners would recognize. So I'm curious 00:19:21.660 --> 00:19:25.160 if you can talk a little bit about how that ripple 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:27.539 effect might be different in each of those categories. 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:30.759 And when we were speaking recently, you mentioned 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:34.980 a particular client who was a... entrepreneur, 00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:37.500 business owner. I think you said he owned a restaurant. 00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:40.920 So I'm curious if you could comment on what you're 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.539 seeing in each of those groups that you work 00:19:43.539 --> 00:19:50.859 with. Yeah. So fascinating, you know, when you 00:19:50.859 --> 00:19:54.279 talk to people about their understanding of immigration 00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:58.759 and it seems very abstract until something happens 00:19:58.759 --> 00:20:03.589 to them. And through my career, I would get Multiple 00:20:03.589 --> 00:20:06.549 calls, you know, usually one a week to this day 00:20:06.549 --> 00:20:12.089 from somebody who will say they usually start 00:20:12.089 --> 00:20:15.170 off establishing their values. Oh, I don't like 00:20:15.170 --> 00:20:21.269 illegal immigration. Thank you. But my guy who 00:20:21.269 --> 00:20:24.609 works for me is great and I'd like him legalized. 00:20:24.910 --> 00:20:28.390 And, you know, I've heard that if I had a dollar. 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:31.259 for every time I heard that, honestly. You know, 00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:40.000 I'd buy you a casita in France. I'm signing off. 00:20:40.299 --> 00:20:42.680 Let's collect those dollars so I can get a casita 00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:48.859 in France. It's fascinating that people feel 00:20:48.859 --> 00:20:51.500 the need to establish that they are law enforcement 00:20:51.500 --> 00:20:55.400 minded, but by George, when it comes to their 00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:57.539 guy, they're a good guy. Well, this story that 00:20:57.539 --> 00:21:02.079 I told you was my client received what's called 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:07.059 an I -9 audit. And so I -9s are the form everyone 00:21:07.059 --> 00:21:09.740 fills out when they go to work. They establish 00:21:09.740 --> 00:21:12.059 who you are and that you can work. And then the 00:21:12.059 --> 00:21:15.049 government audits those. And in the course of 00:21:15.049 --> 00:21:17.569 an audit, if they find out that people are not 00:21:17.569 --> 00:21:22.869 working lawfully, they make you fire those people. 00:21:23.289 --> 00:21:29.549 Well, this client had three Mexican restaurants, 00:21:29.910 --> 00:21:34.569 and two of them received audits. And at the end 00:21:34.569 --> 00:21:36.930 of the day, these employees had been working 00:21:36.930 --> 00:21:44.849 for him for 15, 20 years. 30 employees and shut 00:21:44.849 --> 00:21:48.549 down one of his restaurants. And he called me 00:21:48.549 --> 00:21:51.130 in tears because he didn't know, I would like 00:21:51.130 --> 00:21:54.269 to say, he did not know that these individuals 00:21:54.269 --> 00:21:59.990 were not lawfully working. And he had appropriate 00:21:59.990 --> 00:22:03.670 paperwork for them, but they were borrowing identities 00:22:03.670 --> 00:22:10.150 from their families or various, one of them had 00:22:10.150 --> 00:22:13.299 a Social Security card that just didn't exist, 00:22:13.539 --> 00:22:16.640 but it looked real. So things like that happened. 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:19.859 But he called me in tears and he said, what am 00:22:19.859 --> 00:22:23.319 I going to do? I can't find people to work in 00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:25.920 the kitchen. These were fantastic employees. 00:22:26.700 --> 00:22:30.279 And he said, how could this happen? And I said, 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:34.200 well, the Trump administration promised to do 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:37.789 more I -9 audits. They did the first time. under 00:22:37.789 --> 00:22:40.329 the first administration. It's within their legal 00:22:40.329 --> 00:22:46.509 right to do more I -9 audits. And he said, these 00:22:46.509 --> 00:22:52.450 are good people. I don't understand why the Trump 00:22:52.450 --> 00:22:55.230 administration is going after these people when 00:22:55.230 --> 00:22:58.609 they are good people. I thought the Trump administration 00:22:58.609 --> 00:23:04.750 was only going to go after criminals. And I... 00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:09.720 I will tell you, I had a moment where I heard 00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:14.259 it and I said, you know, what the Trump administration 00:23:14.259 --> 00:23:20.700 said was that immigrants are criminals. So they 00:23:20.700 --> 00:23:24.480 equated undocumented people with criminality, 00:23:24.680 --> 00:23:28.059 which is not what the law is. The law says that 00:23:28.059 --> 00:23:30.299 if you're undocumented, that's a civil violation 00:23:30.299 --> 00:23:33.619 and you can get deported. OK, but you're not. 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:37.519 criminal under state law. Like you haven't, you 00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:39.420 haven't assaulted somebody, you haven't murdered 00:23:39.420 --> 00:23:42.980 anybody, you haven't, you know, been a tax cheat 00:23:42.980 --> 00:23:47.980 or anything like that. And so, and he didn't 00:23:47.980 --> 00:23:50.839 understand that. He thought that the administration 00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:55.779 was only targeting criminals when in fact the 00:23:55.779 --> 00:23:59.220 administration to me was always very clear. that 00:23:59.220 --> 00:24:03.579 if you're undocumented or even in a status that 00:24:03.579 --> 00:24:08.119 we don't like, we're going to send you back to 00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:10.859 your home country. And the Trump administration 00:24:10.859 --> 00:24:15.079 is doing exactly what they said they'd do. And 00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:19.880 did he share with you who he had voted for by 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:24.980 chance? He voted for Mr. Trump. And wished that 00:24:24.980 --> 00:24:28.220 he could take his vote back because of what personally 00:24:28.220 --> 00:24:33.119 happened to him. You know, and I think, you know, 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:38.640 of course, they lost their business. So I found 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:42.480 it fascinating, you know. And it's horrible because 00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:46.500 I think that that one story encapsulates, as 00:24:46.500 --> 00:24:48.980 does the situation with the young Afghan woman. 00:24:49.220 --> 00:24:52.299 These are real people and real consequences. 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:55.279 who are doing the right thing, who are following 00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:58.660 the rules, who have done what everyone has asked 00:24:58.660 --> 00:25:01.240 of them. And while I think we can all agree that 00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:03.500 people who are breaking laws, committing violent 00:25:03.500 --> 00:25:06.700 acts, hurting people, they need to go. I think 00:25:06.700 --> 00:25:08.759 you and I would be in complete agreement on that. 00:25:09.099 --> 00:25:12.599 Absolutely. But when we talk about people like 00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:17.759 your client and this other young woman, that's... 00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:19.779 That's not fair. That's not what I understand 00:25:19.779 --> 00:25:22.119 our country to be about. That's not what I understand 00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:26.099 our democracy to be about or our respect for 00:25:26.099 --> 00:25:28.220 the rule of law. To me, that flies in the face 00:25:28.220 --> 00:25:30.279 of it. I don't know how you feel about that. 00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:40.259 You know, I sympathize with people. We have to 00:25:40.259 --> 00:25:43.859 do something about our immigration laws so we 00:25:43.859 --> 00:25:47.670 don't have... this continuous problem with people 00:25:47.670 --> 00:25:52.410 in an undocumented status who can't legalize. 00:25:52.509 --> 00:25:54.890 And I will say that is ultimately what the issue 00:25:54.890 --> 00:26:00.450 is. We have over decades, decades, starting even 00:26:00.450 --> 00:26:04.529 before the Reagan era, every administration has 00:26:04.529 --> 00:26:07.430 sort of turned a semi -blind eye to people coming 00:26:07.430 --> 00:26:11.809 into the U .S. who are working in an undocumented 00:26:11.809 --> 00:26:17.259 status and are lost. then trap you here you can't 00:26:17.259 --> 00:26:19.599 leave once you're here because the ways the laws 00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:22.759 are set up because once you leave you can't return 00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:28.180 um ever maybe or maybe um after 10 years if you're 00:26:28.180 --> 00:26:31.240 lucky so it traps you here well that's a dumb 00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:35.039 law let's change the law but congress has failed 00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:37.940 democrats have failed republicans have failed 00:26:37.940 --> 00:26:40.920 they have both failed to deal with the problem 00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:45.140 and so now We do have this issue with people 00:26:45.140 --> 00:26:48.140 who are here in an undocumented status. And I 00:26:48.140 --> 00:26:53.319 think it's indefensible mostly to Congress. Like, 00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:58.660 stop being babies and do something about these 00:26:58.660 --> 00:27:02.380 laws and do something that makes sense. You know, 00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:06.279 the dreamers that came, they can't even fix that, 00:27:06.440 --> 00:27:11.599 right? The people who came as young kids. And 00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:13.900 I'm going to say one other thing as long as I'm 00:27:13.900 --> 00:27:18.680 on a roll. Go for it. Trump administration is 00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:22.279 doing something that makes no sense to me. They 00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:27.940 are so focused on quotas and metrics that this 00:27:27.940 --> 00:27:31.819 idea that if you are here in an undocumented 00:27:31.819 --> 00:27:35.660 status or even in a status that they don't like, 00:27:35.799 --> 00:27:38.799 that we are going to get rid of you. And they 00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:44.690 have quotas. So this quota is supposed to be 00:27:44.690 --> 00:27:47.970 met by Immigration Customs Enforcement either 00:27:47.970 --> 00:27:52.130 daily or weekly. A certain number of people need 00:27:52.130 --> 00:27:57.569 to be arrested and deported. Every other administration 00:27:57.569 --> 00:28:01.630 until now has had law enforcement priorities. 00:28:01.849 --> 00:28:03.910 And Lauren, you're a law enforcement person. 00:28:04.490 --> 00:28:09.049 Law enforcement does not have unlimited resources. 00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:12.440 You don't have the resources to go after everybody, 00:28:12.660 --> 00:28:15.940 right? Absolutely not. You have to prioritize 00:28:15.940 --> 00:28:18.460 what you're going to do based on what your mission 00:28:18.460 --> 00:28:21.619 is and what's the greatest risk in terms of people's 00:28:21.619 --> 00:28:24.839 security. Yeah, let's target pedophiles. Let's 00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:30.180 target traffickers. Let's target, you know, drug 00:28:30.180 --> 00:28:34.180 gangs. But this administration says we are targeting 00:28:34.180 --> 00:28:39.839 a number, quotas, which is why. We are seeing 00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:43.039 indiscriminate arrests. They go into public. 00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:46.240 They're pulling people off the street. Why? Because 00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:51.119 they're trying to hit a number. So when you have 00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:58.759 no law enforcement priorities, then everyone 00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:04.640 is a priority. And that creates unstable systems 00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:10.539 and, quite frankly, A law enforcement, I would 00:29:10.539 --> 00:29:15.140 say, a problem, right? Because if you are a real 00:29:15.140 --> 00:29:16.819 criminal, you're going to have the resources 00:29:16.819 --> 00:29:21.640 to hide, right? Yep. Right? You know that, Lauren. 00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:25.059 Oh, I know that. I know that. Absolutely. And 00:29:25.059 --> 00:29:27.700 I, you know, another thing going to what you're 00:29:27.700 --> 00:29:30.039 talking about is the limited resources. And as 00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:33.509 you know, they've been pulling. Very large percentages, 00:29:33.650 --> 00:29:37.009 raising from 25 to 45 percent of FBI agents are 00:29:37.009 --> 00:29:39.650 being pulled off national security matters, cyber 00:29:39.650 --> 00:29:42.470 matters, white collar crime to go out and arrest 00:29:42.470 --> 00:29:46.410 people with ICE. And going to one of the things 00:29:46.410 --> 00:29:48.450 that you mentioned in terms of stats, just in 00:29:48.450 --> 00:29:51.490 the last few days, another statistical requirement 00:29:51.490 --> 00:29:55.690 came out and the administration has decreed that. 00:29:56.380 --> 00:30:00.880 They are to search for 200 people a month to 00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:04.039 denaturalize. These are people who are already 00:30:04.039 --> 00:30:06.880 American citizens who have gone through the process, 00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:09.539 been naturalized. And I believe the number I 00:30:09.539 --> 00:30:11.680 saw that over the last eight years, it was only 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:15.420 125 people denaturalized and they want to get 00:30:15.420 --> 00:30:20.339 200 denaturalized per month. That's another example 00:30:20.339 --> 00:30:23.400 of a quota. I haven't heard that. And thank you. 00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:29.059 And now that is. Astounding. A number that is 00:30:29.059 --> 00:30:33.460 arbitrary. Like, why? So what what law enforcement 00:30:33.460 --> 00:30:36.160 is going to do, because the number is the target, 00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:41.240 is start sort of indiscriminately pulling these 00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:46.779 cases. And if anything is, you know, I don't 00:30:46.779 --> 00:30:49.500 know, like if they have to hit the number there. 00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:52.740 OK, let me give you an example. They just popped 00:30:52.740 --> 00:30:55.940 into my head. Think of a factory production line 00:30:55.940 --> 00:31:00.140 and you have two factories, one where you have 00:31:00.140 --> 00:31:06.200 a quota of 2000 widgets a day and one where there's 00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:08.819 no quota. It's like build the best product you 00:31:08.819 --> 00:31:12.500 can. Right. Which one are you going to buy and 00:31:12.500 --> 00:31:16.259 which one is the one where they're going to, 00:31:16.259 --> 00:31:19.640 you know, cut costs and say, oh, that one fell 00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:21.880 on the floor and is damaged. I don't care. Right. 00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:28.140 Like when you have a quota as a goal, you're 00:31:28.140 --> 00:31:30.839 going to cut corners. You're going to do things 00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:33.000 that you wouldn't normally otherwise do because 00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:36.500 you're trying to save your job and not get fired 00:31:36.500 --> 00:31:41.640 and meet the quota. So it's it's I think it's 00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:43.880 not good law enforcement. I think it's not good 00:31:43.880 --> 00:31:47.839 policy. And it's quite frankly shocking because 00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:51.670 they're humans, you know. at the end of the paper, 00:31:51.970 --> 00:31:55.809 you know, these are human beings. I agree. And 00:31:55.809 --> 00:31:58.430 one of the things we've talked about, and I think 00:31:58.430 --> 00:32:03.210 this tees it up perfectly, my mouth is twisting, 00:32:03.329 --> 00:32:07.049 is the human cost inside the systems. And you've 00:32:07.049 --> 00:32:10.029 just spoken to that. And, you know, I recently 00:32:10.029 --> 00:32:14.549 heard from a young FBI agent, I say young in 00:32:14.549 --> 00:32:17.670 terms of tenure in the Bureau. who reached out 00:32:17.670 --> 00:32:20.369 in a very, very discreet manner because of deep 00:32:20.369 --> 00:32:24.029 concerns they have about where the FBI is going. 00:32:24.210 --> 00:32:28.190 But what was perhaps even more interesting and 00:32:28.190 --> 00:32:30.829 also heartening in its own kind of perverse way 00:32:30.829 --> 00:32:34.950 is that this agent shared that the sense of low 00:32:34.950 --> 00:32:37.769 morale, which is rampant in the FBI, that constant 00:32:37.769 --> 00:32:40.470 changing of priorities, we're going to reorganize 00:32:40.470 --> 00:32:42.230 again. Oh, wait, no, last week we're going to 00:32:42.230 --> 00:32:44.009 reorganize and now we're going to focus on this 00:32:44.009 --> 00:32:48.890 and not do that. And this agent shared that her 00:32:48.890 --> 00:32:52.650 counterparts in other agencies, including ICE, 00:32:52.890 --> 00:32:56.349 were saying that they felt demoralized, that 00:32:56.349 --> 00:32:59.549 they were upset with how things were going. And 00:32:59.549 --> 00:33:02.690 they don't themselves like the way the enforcement 00:33:02.690 --> 00:33:06.089 operations are rolling out. And that speaks volumes. 00:33:12.910 --> 00:33:16.109 relationships with on the other side right in 00:33:16.109 --> 00:33:22.109 uscis are are not all of course there are some 00:33:22.109 --> 00:33:25.849 people who are very rah -rah and and like this 00:33:25.849 --> 00:33:29.269 but most of the career people are are deeply 00:33:29.269 --> 00:33:35.029 unhappy and and ultimately are not um aligned 00:33:35.029 --> 00:33:41.970 with this sort of extreme um you know, the extreme 00:33:41.970 --> 00:33:45.009 views and the extreme measures being taken. And, 00:33:45.170 --> 00:33:50.210 you know, the career ICE people are really kind 00:33:50.210 --> 00:33:53.369 of up in arms because they are, again, not all, 00:33:53.509 --> 00:33:58.089 but the ones who I think have been around long 00:33:58.089 --> 00:34:01.890 enough to see this job through multiple administrations 00:34:01.890 --> 00:34:10.780 don't feel that they are effectively doing their 00:34:10.780 --> 00:34:16.579 job when the goal is just to pick up anybody 00:34:16.579 --> 00:34:19.860 who looks like an immigrant and throw them in 00:34:19.860 --> 00:34:23.440 jail. One of the goals is to fill the detention 00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:26.579 centers. That's a goal, right? We're all paying 00:34:26.579 --> 00:34:29.699 for that. Detention centers are being built and 00:34:29.699 --> 00:34:33.900 reopened at the cost of millions and millions 00:34:33.900 --> 00:34:37.250 of dollars a year. And, you know, to me, it's 00:34:37.250 --> 00:34:38.869 like, well, if you're going to deport them, why 00:34:38.869 --> 00:34:40.929 do you have to detain them for all this time? 00:34:41.050 --> 00:34:43.889 But that's, you know, they want to fill the detention 00:34:43.889 --> 00:34:46.849 centers, too. My guess is I don't want to start 00:34:46.849 --> 00:34:49.730 a conspiracy theory here, but my guess is there 00:34:49.730 --> 00:34:53.610 are private contracts. Yep. Somebody's making 00:34:53.610 --> 00:34:58.010 going to be making copious amounts of money on 00:34:58.010 --> 00:35:01.750 this. And that's unfortunately on the lives and 00:35:01.750 --> 00:35:04.860 the well -being of. a lot of people, some of 00:35:04.860 --> 00:35:09.239 whom deserve to be in detention and many of whom 00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:12.639 don't. And, you know, you mentioned the fact 00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:15.639 that you've seen this through multiple administrations, 00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:17.579 and we talked about some of the aftermath of 00:35:17.579 --> 00:35:21.099 9 -11. And when you look at everything that's 00:35:21.099 --> 00:35:22.840 happening today, and we've touched on this a 00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:26.099 little bit, but from a broader sense, you know, 00:35:26.099 --> 00:35:29.360 what warning signs are you seeing? What things 00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:32.960 are you seeing that trouble you deeply? if there 00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:36.340 are any, and do you have ongoing and long range 00:35:36.340 --> 00:35:41.679 concerns based on that? Well, I do. You know, 00:35:41.699 --> 00:35:46.900 I was thinking back about 9 -11 and how, even 00:35:46.900 --> 00:35:50.900 though it was such a deeply, deeply troubling 00:35:50.900 --> 00:35:56.579 event and, you know, and it involved people who 00:35:56.579 --> 00:36:00.619 were foreign born, right? Which hit my heart, 00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:05.789 right? But the American people pulled together. 00:36:05.989 --> 00:36:12.670 I remember feeling a love and connection to my 00:36:12.670 --> 00:36:15.769 fellow Americans during that time, you know, 00:36:15.769 --> 00:36:25.389 and feeling like the flag was a symbol of togetherness. 00:36:26.539 --> 00:36:31.219 all, everybody in this country. And I felt like 00:36:31.219 --> 00:36:36.639 we really pulled together in a way after 9 -11 00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:39.619 that was very beautiful. And again, some of the 00:36:39.619 --> 00:36:41.760 things that happened afterwards, I didn't agree 00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:44.699 with. But, you know, in that moment, we had a 00:36:44.699 --> 00:36:50.380 president who, you know, said some very, I think, 00:36:50.460 --> 00:36:53.539 things that brought... the people together. Now 00:36:53.539 --> 00:36:56.039 we have a president who purposely divides us 00:36:56.039 --> 00:36:59.599 and pits us against each other. And say what 00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:04.380 you want, and this is not a political broadcast, 00:37:04.840 --> 00:37:09.699 but we do objectively have a president who is 00:37:09.699 --> 00:37:12.000 pitting us against each other, even in his Christmas 00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:14.320 message, which I found very distressing. I want 00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:16.699 to be uplifted by a Christmas message, but it 00:37:16.699 --> 00:37:21.050 was very divisive. And so it's harder to find 00:37:21.050 --> 00:37:25.710 common ground. And this is what I find troubling 00:37:25.710 --> 00:37:29.190 because there's so much demonizing of immigration. 00:37:29.710 --> 00:37:33.510 And I had somebody once say to me, oh, you know, 00:37:33.550 --> 00:37:36.570 recently, you know, oh, you're an immigration 00:37:36.570 --> 00:37:40.130 lawyer. So illegal immigration. I'm like, why 00:37:40.130 --> 00:37:44.809 did you assume illegal immigration when I said 00:37:44.809 --> 00:37:47.849 the word immigration? Well, aren't they all illegal? 00:37:48.269 --> 00:37:52.769 No, they are not. You know, we really demonized, 00:37:52.769 --> 00:37:56.769 you know, this this beautiful thing that our 00:37:56.769 --> 00:37:59.869 country is founded on, you know, and most of 00:37:59.869 --> 00:38:02.590 us can trace back our families only two or three 00:38:02.590 --> 00:38:06.630 generations, some more. But, you know, the first 00:38:06.630 --> 00:38:09.710 lady's an immigrant. So so it's very troubling 00:38:09.710 --> 00:38:13.900 to me. Yeah, I agree with you. I am on one side 00:38:13.900 --> 00:38:17.699 of my family. I am a second generation. My grandparents 00:38:17.699 --> 00:38:20.639 immigrated. And, you know, I'm sure it's true 00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:23.019 for most of the people who will be listening 00:38:23.019 --> 00:38:26.380 to this. And I'm so glad that you're sounding 00:38:26.380 --> 00:38:29.699 those positive notes, too, and about how we know 00:38:29.699 --> 00:38:31.960 we both feel the same way, how deeply we love 00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:34.420 this country and the people we live alongside 00:38:34.420 --> 00:38:37.760 and the friends that we have. And we've talked 00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:41.230 about a lot of the things that. are not going 00:38:41.230 --> 00:38:44.030 so well and that can be better. And, you know, 00:38:44.050 --> 00:38:45.889 I would like for everybody who's listening to 00:38:45.889 --> 00:38:49.429 us to get some thoughts from you, because I think 00:38:49.429 --> 00:38:52.469 the average person, despite those things that 00:38:52.469 --> 00:38:55.949 kind of fly out of people's mouths, I think the 00:38:55.949 --> 00:38:59.570 average person wants to like who's living next 00:38:59.570 --> 00:39:02.670 door to them and wants to see themselves succeed, 00:39:02.829 --> 00:39:05.329 their family succeed, and the people they know 00:39:05.329 --> 00:39:08.610 succeed. So kind of considering that, you know, 00:39:08.610 --> 00:39:13.190 is there one thing that you would ask that people 00:39:13.190 --> 00:39:17.449 notice or do differently in this context going 00:39:17.449 --> 00:39:20.469 forward? I want to have some positivity. I want 00:39:20.469 --> 00:39:23.349 some ideas. They can be conceptual. They can 00:39:23.349 --> 00:39:26.349 be concrete. But I'd love to know what you think 00:39:26.349 --> 00:39:30.769 each of us can do to improve this situation going 00:39:30.769 --> 00:39:38.820 forward. I have a couple ideas here. So, and 00:39:38.820 --> 00:39:42.280 I have to start with the story that, Lauren, 00:39:42.519 --> 00:39:44.539 you know it's going to start this way. I was 00:39:44.539 --> 00:39:48.980 in a dive bar a couple weeks ago, of course. 00:39:49.300 --> 00:39:54.159 I was listening to a bluegrass band. And a man 00:39:54.159 --> 00:39:57.860 next to me struck up a conversation. And, you 00:39:57.860 --> 00:40:01.480 know, I'm just trying to enjoy the band, right? 00:40:01.639 --> 00:40:03.900 And he's like, what do you do? And I'm like, 00:40:03.940 --> 00:40:06.679 oh, do I go there? And I'm like, okay, why not? 00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:09.099 And I said, well, I'm an immigration lawyer. 00:40:10.059 --> 00:40:14.739 And he immediately said, how can you justify 00:40:14.739 --> 00:40:19.179 being around those criminals? You know, none 00:40:19.179 --> 00:40:21.760 of them pay taxes and they're taking my job. 00:40:22.300 --> 00:40:24.659 And you know what? I squared my shoulders and 00:40:24.659 --> 00:40:27.500 I looked him in the eye and I said, you know 00:40:27.500 --> 00:40:31.670 what? Those undocumented people. probably pay 00:40:31.670 --> 00:40:34.849 more taxes than our billionaires do. They pay 00:40:34.849 --> 00:40:38.849 property tax. They pay sales tax. Most have withholdings 00:40:38.849 --> 00:40:40.889 taken out, Medicare and Social Security, that 00:40:40.889 --> 00:40:43.969 they will never collect. And by the way, sir, 00:40:44.210 --> 00:40:47.110 everything you think you know about immigration 00:40:47.110 --> 00:40:50.809 is a lie. And I really thought I was going to 00:40:50.809 --> 00:40:54.829 get punched. Wow. I'd have been ducking at that 00:40:54.829 --> 00:40:58.309 point, Amy. But I was like, I've had it, right? 00:40:58.409 --> 00:41:01.139 Like, listen. I'm just here listening to a band, 00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:05.880 and he asked me the question. So I'm just challenging 00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:10.619 people to challenge their own assumptions, right? 00:41:10.739 --> 00:41:15.239 Like, learn more. And the moral of my story is, 00:41:15.420 --> 00:41:19.300 you know, you can't learn about this from the 00:41:19.300 --> 00:41:22.119 news, either left or right, right? You can't 00:41:22.119 --> 00:41:25.650 learn from... Either of the news sources, you 00:41:25.650 --> 00:41:27.969 have to do some research. Go to credible sources. 00:41:28.070 --> 00:41:32.050 The American Immigration Council has really good 00:41:32.050 --> 00:41:34.170 research articles if you want to learn something. 00:41:34.769 --> 00:41:40.730 Or ask an immigration lawyer. Ask me. So do your 00:41:40.730 --> 00:41:43.630 research and assume everything you know is wrong. 00:41:46.309 --> 00:41:50.110 It's not a good place to start. It's wrong. I 00:41:50.110 --> 00:41:52.510 do that, you know, anymore when I walk into a 00:41:52.510 --> 00:41:54.469 situation that I don't know much about. I'll 00:41:54.469 --> 00:41:57.849 be like, you know what? I can't really trust, 00:41:58.010 --> 00:42:02.730 you know, the media, either side anymore. So 00:42:02.730 --> 00:42:06.230 I just try to go in with an open mind. And then 00:42:06.230 --> 00:42:10.869 just let's start demanding that Congress actually 00:42:10.869 --> 00:42:14.550 do their job and stop being absolute wimps about 00:42:14.550 --> 00:42:18.469 doing immigration reform. Like, it's ridiculous. 00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:22.320 that they have not tried to update the rules 00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:28.900 in 30 years. It's ridiculous. So those are the, 00:42:29.079 --> 00:42:32.539 you know, we need to stop being manipulated by 00:42:32.539 --> 00:42:34.119 the rhetoric. That's the last thing. When you 00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:37.019 start hearing rhetoric that demonizes immigrants, 00:42:37.300 --> 00:42:40.280 just step back and say, who's manipulating me 00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:44.420 and why? You know, so those are the things that 00:42:44.420 --> 00:42:48.550 I would suggest right offhand. Okay. Well, thanks 00:42:48.550 --> 00:42:52.809 for that. And thank you so much, Amy, for joining 00:42:52.809 --> 00:42:55.530 me today and for your honesty about what you're 00:42:55.530 --> 00:42:58.409 seeing. I know this is going to leave our listeners 00:42:58.409 --> 00:43:01.309 with a lot to think about. And I'm grateful, 00:43:01.530 --> 00:43:04.269 Amy, for all you and your colleagues do every 00:43:04.269 --> 00:43:07.769 day. And we're a better nation for your work. 00:43:08.809 --> 00:43:13.630 So thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you. And 00:43:13.630 --> 00:43:16.789 thank you, our listeners. For joining us, this 00:43:16.789 --> 00:43:19.670 is Lauren Anderson for the Steady State Sentinel 00:43:19.670 --> 00:43:26.090 Still Standing Watch. Thank you for listening 00:43:26.090 --> 00:43:29.829 to the Steady State Sentinel podcast. Don't miss 00:43:29.829 --> 00:43:32.869 out on more insights and exposes from America's 00:43:32.869 --> 00:43:36.389 premier global security experts. 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