WEBVTT - Generated by artificial intelligence - any errors are unintentional. 00:00:03.499 --> 00:00:06.080 The steady state sentinels produced by the steady 00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:08.439 state, the community of former national security 00:00:08.439 --> 00:00:10.759 professionals who spent their careers safeguarding 00:00:10.759 --> 00:00:17.960 the United States at home and abroad. Today, 00:00:17.960 --> 00:00:21.019 we continue that mission by staying true to our 00:00:21.019 --> 00:00:24.140 oaths to defend the Constitution, uphold our 00:00:24.140 --> 00:00:26.879 democracy and protect our nation's security. 00:00:27.260 --> 00:00:30.500 Join our expert hosts as they interview field 00:00:30.500 --> 00:00:33.619 -tested guests whose unique experiences shed 00:00:33.619 --> 00:00:36.960 light on the crises and challenges facing our 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:54.049 nation. Welcome to the steady state sentinel. 00:00:54.310 --> 00:00:56.710 This is a weekly podcast to the steady state, 00:00:56.990 --> 00:00:59.969 which is a nonprofit advocacy organization whose 00:00:59.969 --> 00:01:02.990 members are former senior national security officials 00:01:02.990 --> 00:01:05.930 drawn from across the intelligence, diplomatic, 00:01:06.349 --> 00:01:09.010 homeland security and defense communities. And 00:01:09.010 --> 00:01:12.109 this week we have the pleasure of interviewing 00:01:12.109 --> 00:01:14.890 our general director, our executive director, 00:01:15.069 --> 00:01:18.109 Steve Cash. Steve has had a very distinguished 00:01:18.109 --> 00:01:21.930 career. in the intelligence community, in the 00:01:21.930 --> 00:01:25.450 Senate, and lately at Homeland Security. I first 00:01:25.450 --> 00:01:28.510 met Steve, in fact, when he and I were both serving 00:01:28.510 --> 00:01:32.810 at CIA. And he was an operations officer there 00:01:32.810 --> 00:01:35.909 for several years. And I really enjoyed working 00:01:35.909 --> 00:01:38.469 with him. The next time our paths crossed was 00:01:38.469 --> 00:01:41.950 at a biosecurity experts group, which Steve really 00:01:41.950 --> 00:01:44.150 honchoed along with Larry Kerr and some others. 00:01:44.750 --> 00:01:48.849 So Steve, welcome to this initial broadcast of 00:01:48.849 --> 00:01:51.599 the steady state Sentinel. Well, Jim, it's great 00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:54.760 to be here. I'm proud to be a part of the steady 00:01:54.760 --> 00:01:57.700 state. I remember meeting you. I actually remember 00:01:57.700 --> 00:02:00.920 the meeting back then. I won't explain in any 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:03.420 detail what happened, but I was blown away by 00:02:03.420 --> 00:02:06.980 a certain amount of creativity that you had around 00:02:06.980 --> 00:02:10.090 a conference table there. But it's good to be 00:02:10.090 --> 00:02:12.889 here and good to see you as always, Jim. Well, 00:02:13.110 --> 00:02:15.969 we are really honored to have you on as our executive 00:02:15.969 --> 00:02:18.810 director. And I'd like you to just tell us about 00:02:18.810 --> 00:02:22.110 how the steady state was founded back in 2016. 00:02:22.710 --> 00:02:25.270 What motivated you to do this, what its role 00:02:25.270 --> 00:02:28.909 is today and how the membership of our over 360 00:02:28.909 --> 00:02:32.550 former national security professionals contributes 00:02:32.550 --> 00:02:36.800 to. The foundation, the securing of our national 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:39.560 security and our democracy. Please go into this, 00:02:39.699 --> 00:02:42.699 Steve, and tell us about this. Sure. The origin 00:02:42.699 --> 00:02:44.699 story. We weren't even called the steady state 00:02:44.699 --> 00:02:48.780 back then. We got together in November, roughly 00:02:48.780 --> 00:02:52.840 November of 2016, after the election. Donald 00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:56.240 Trump had just been elected. And we had some 00:02:56.240 --> 00:02:58.900 concerns. Who's the we in that sentence? By that 00:02:58.900 --> 00:03:01.819 point, most of the people I had worked with had 00:03:01.819 --> 00:03:04.860 left the agency, either retired or moved on to 00:03:04.860 --> 00:03:07.620 the private sector, but we had kept in touch. 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:10.139 And in fact, many of us had worked together. 00:03:10.590 --> 00:03:14.629 on issues related to terrorism and the Balkans 00:03:14.629 --> 00:03:18.250 in the late Clinton administration. And the group 00:03:18.250 --> 00:03:21.689 that sort of had kept in touch were agency people 00:03:21.689 --> 00:03:24.629 and State Department people. We've worked together. 00:03:24.750 --> 00:03:27.189 We've gotten along. We liked each other a lot. 00:03:27.590 --> 00:03:30.449 And we were all concerned. And so we sort of 00:03:30.449 --> 00:03:32.389 started making phone calls and talking to each 00:03:32.389 --> 00:03:35.449 other. What should we do? Now, I'm sure we'll 00:03:35.449 --> 00:03:38.949 talk about this, Jim. But certainly at the agency, 00:03:39.289 --> 00:03:43.810 there's a real hesitancy to get involved in domestic 00:03:43.810 --> 00:03:47.930 politics at all. As I think has been already 00:03:47.930 --> 00:03:52.530 said in early versions of this podcast, we didn't 00:03:52.530 --> 00:03:56.270 talk about it. If you'd asked me what party Jim 00:03:56.270 --> 00:03:58.710 Lawler was, I would have said, I have no idea. 00:03:58.830 --> 00:04:00.909 And they would never mention it. It was just 00:04:00.909 --> 00:04:04.330 not talked about. So we were very hesitant. But 00:04:04.330 --> 00:04:06.490 we were really concerned. This new guy, this 00:04:06.490 --> 00:04:11.990 new president, what seemed inexperienced and 00:04:11.990 --> 00:04:15.349 almost hostile to the idea of expertise in the 00:04:15.349 --> 00:04:17.769 world of national security and international 00:04:17.769 --> 00:04:20.129 affairs. After all, he was going to be commander 00:04:20.129 --> 00:04:24.029 in chief. And that serious stuff, we felt we 00:04:24.029 --> 00:04:25.670 needed to do something. What could we do that 00:04:25.670 --> 00:04:29.209 we were comfortable with? And it was, OK, let's 00:04:30.310 --> 00:04:32.750 We're a bunch of people who've worked in this 00:04:32.750 --> 00:04:35.649 world for most of our professional careers. We 00:04:35.649 --> 00:04:38.810 know a lot of things. And so we said, let's just 00:04:38.810 --> 00:04:42.769 offer. And so we wrote a letter to the designee 00:04:42.769 --> 00:04:46.029 for national security advisor, General Flynn. 00:04:47.569 --> 00:04:50.209 He was fired two weeks later. We hadn't had a 00:04:50.209 --> 00:04:52.709 response yet. So we wrote to McMaster, General 00:04:52.709 --> 00:04:56.050 McMaster, who took his place. He never responded. 00:04:57.629 --> 00:04:59.810 And... Soon after we started hearing, even back 00:04:59.810 --> 00:05:04.230 then, rumors of retaliation and blacklists. And 00:05:04.230 --> 00:05:06.589 people got worried. And it was pretty clear that 00:05:06.589 --> 00:05:08.769 this administration didn't want our help. And 00:05:08.769 --> 00:05:12.290 we sort of went to sleep. We were never a formal 00:05:12.290 --> 00:05:14.209 organization. I don't even think we had a name 00:05:14.209 --> 00:05:17.569 back then. And, you know, we had a mailing list. 00:05:17.689 --> 00:05:21.250 We grew to around 70 people. And that was it. 00:05:21.410 --> 00:05:25.750 And we didn't do anything until the Ukraine scandal 00:05:25.750 --> 00:05:29.990 broke. That struck home for a lot of our people. 00:05:30.810 --> 00:05:33.589 Most of us had worked the old corridor represented 00:05:33.589 --> 00:05:37.250 by the so -called Iron Curtain, so running up 00:05:37.250 --> 00:05:41.110 from the Balkans all the way up to the Baltics, 00:05:41.649 --> 00:05:45.129 or had worked Russia. We knew the area. A lot 00:05:45.129 --> 00:05:51.970 of us had worked on Ukraine issues. really stimulated, 00:05:52.209 --> 00:05:55.209 motivated us was what was coming out in the press 00:05:55.209 --> 00:05:57.970 and what appeared to have happened. It wasn't 00:05:57.970 --> 00:06:00.949 a policy difference. It wasn't even incompetence. 00:06:01.350 --> 00:06:04.149 It was a president extorting a foreign leader 00:06:04.149 --> 00:06:08.949 for personal gain. And that for us crossed a 00:06:08.949 --> 00:06:11.829 red line, a red line that we thought was pretty 00:06:11.829 --> 00:06:14.110 far in the distance. And suddenly we were right 00:06:14.110 --> 00:06:18.000 there. This wasn't just a threat. that policy 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:20.759 was going to be poorly conceived or policy that 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:24.240 some didn't like. And my goodness, with our group, 00:06:24.939 --> 00:06:27.800 getting a policy that we all agreed on would 00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:31.500 have been impossible. But this wasn't that. This 00:06:31.500 --> 00:06:36.220 was an existential threat. And we said, we hate 00:06:36.220 --> 00:06:39.100 getting involved in domestic politics. It's not 00:06:39.100 --> 00:06:42.540 a great idea. It's against our culture. And we'll 00:06:42.540 --> 00:06:45.420 talk a little bit, Jim, I hope. about why we 00:06:45.420 --> 00:06:48.860 particularly know how dangerous it is for our 00:06:48.860 --> 00:06:51.540 profession to get involved in American domestic 00:06:51.540 --> 00:06:55.379 politics. But something was different here. We 00:06:55.379 --> 00:06:58.620 had to do something. And we sort of held our 00:06:58.620 --> 00:07:03.379 noses and said, OK, we're in. And we wrote and 00:07:03.379 --> 00:07:05.959 we spoke. And you can imagine the CIA people 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:10.060 like, oh, my God, fucking reporters. We wrote 00:07:10.060 --> 00:07:13.839 public essays. We spoke on panels. This was during 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:16.199 COVID, so we never actually saw any human beings. 00:07:17.060 --> 00:07:20.459 And we eventually endorsed candidates, including 00:07:20.459 --> 00:07:25.199 Joe Biden, who became president. And that took 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:28.439 us up to the election then. And I mentioned, 00:07:28.600 --> 00:07:30.740 and I think we should go into it more deeply, 00:07:31.740 --> 00:07:35.259 the idea that national security people, particularly 00:07:35.259 --> 00:07:37.600 intelligence people, just shouldn't be playing 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:41.209 around in domestic politics. I'm sort of proud 00:07:41.209 --> 00:07:43.550 of what we did, which is we did nothing. We said, 00:07:43.769 --> 00:07:47.370 OK, we're done. We continued. Our steering committee 00:07:47.370 --> 00:07:50.949 kept meeting and talking about their grandkids 00:07:50.949 --> 00:07:54.250 and golf and also talked about maybe we should 00:07:54.250 --> 00:07:56.610 be doing educational material or something like 00:07:56.610 --> 00:07:59.189 that. But we stepped away. Existential threat 00:07:59.189 --> 00:08:02.670 gone. We were gone. And then the existential 00:08:02.670 --> 00:08:06.750 threat returned. Donald Trump came back with 00:08:06.750 --> 00:08:11.050 more explicit campaign promises. that represented 00:08:11.050 --> 00:08:13.629 everything that had brought us to the table in 00:08:13.629 --> 00:08:19.029 the first place. And so we reformed. By that 00:08:19.029 --> 00:08:21.970 time, actually during even the 2020 election, 00:08:22.009 --> 00:08:25.930 we had called ourselves the steady state in response 00:08:25.930 --> 00:08:28.430 to these accusations of the deep state. There's 00:08:28.430 --> 00:08:30.850 no deep state, there's a steady state. And we 00:08:30.850 --> 00:08:33.370 are part of that steady state. And that steady 00:08:33.370 --> 00:08:35.490 state, it's not just national security people, 00:08:35.929 --> 00:08:40.120 it's all across the government. America tech 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:43.139 in terms of government the people who do the 00:08:43.139 --> 00:08:48.500 work of governing and helping and defending This 00:08:48.500 --> 00:08:51.360 country and it runs from the national security 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:54.460 community to the Smithsonian Institution to the 00:08:54.460 --> 00:08:58.500 national parks to CDC you name it so we were 00:08:58.500 --> 00:09:05.320 the steady state and We got back involved We 00:09:05.320 --> 00:09:09.779 did a little bit in terms of the 2024 election, 00:09:09.779 --> 00:09:12.059 not as much as we had done. I'm not sure what 00:09:12.059 --> 00:09:15.419 we could have done. But after Donald Trump took 00:09:15.419 --> 00:09:18.220 over the presidency and we had the transition, 00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:23.799 we got back involved. And against all of this 00:09:23.799 --> 00:09:27.519 was a background that told us we were on the 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:31.340 right track, and that was January 6th. We'd seen 00:09:31.340 --> 00:09:33.600 what happened. That was sort of what we were 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:38.379 predicting could happen. But the idea... that 00:09:38.379 --> 00:09:41.899 we would have what, in our minds, looked a lot 00:09:41.899 --> 00:09:45.679 like the... Our members have seen a lot of capitals 00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:49.620 overrun by mobs. We've seen that one before. 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:53.620 Looked a lot like other countries where the mob 00:09:53.620 --> 00:09:58.320 takes over. And we saw it happening. If anything, 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:01.399 it told us we were right, but we thought we were 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:04.279 okay on January 7th when we had a president. 00:10:04.730 --> 00:10:07.590 Biden on the way to being inaugurated when he 00:10:07.590 --> 00:10:10.730 was inaugurated on the 20th three weeks later 00:10:10.730 --> 00:10:14.029 We were wrong. The existential threat is back 00:10:14.029 --> 00:10:17.909 and that that's how we got to where we are so 00:10:17.909 --> 00:10:21.809 if I can ask Steve when when President Trump 00:10:21.809 --> 00:10:26.789 was re -elected in 2024 and took office earlier 00:10:26.789 --> 00:10:31.899 this year What exactly were some of the red lines 00:10:31.899 --> 00:10:35.279 that he crossed that you and other members of 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:38.259 the steady state, and I'm a member, I joined 00:10:38.259 --> 00:10:41.200 several years ago, although I've been inactive 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:45.200 until now when I was asked to host this podcast 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:48.379 and I thought, I've got to do something. My older 00:10:48.379 --> 00:10:50.820 daughter, Elizabeth, who lives in New York, she 00:10:50.820 --> 00:10:53.289 said, daddy, please do this. And so I thought, 00:10:53.490 --> 00:10:55.190 OK, I've got to do this. I'm not going to just 00:10:55.190 --> 00:10:58.090 stand by and watch the erosion of our constitution 00:10:58.090 --> 00:11:00.789 and our democracy. But were there any seminal 00:11:00.789 --> 00:11:03.370 moments where you thought we've got to be more 00:11:03.370 --> 00:11:06.129 active? No, we're not the deep state. We're the 00:11:06.129 --> 00:11:08.370 steady state. We're not corroding democracy. 00:11:08.490 --> 00:11:11.190 We're protecting our republic and our constitution. 00:11:11.470 --> 00:11:14.090 Tell me, tell me in your mind what accelerated 00:11:14.090 --> 00:11:16.909 the more activities, the greater activities of 00:11:16.909 --> 00:11:20.690 the steady state? Well, in the first go round, 00:11:20.870 --> 00:11:23.799 it was the Ukraine scandal. Since this election, 00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:27.240 the 2024 election, which you're referring to, 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:31.179 the red line sort of had already been crossed 00:11:31.179 --> 00:11:35.139 in many ways because he ran on a platform of 00:11:35.139 --> 00:11:37.580 saying there was going to be retaliation against 00:11:37.580 --> 00:11:41.019 his enemies. And he didn't waste much time after 00:11:41.019 --> 00:11:44.179 Inauguration Day in making clear what the point 00:11:44.179 --> 00:11:48.139 was. The very next day, he pardoned all the January 00:11:48.139 --> 00:11:53.250 6th people. You couldn't get a more clear red 00:11:53.250 --> 00:11:56.330 line crossing than that one. It's all right that 00:11:56.330 --> 00:11:58.789 you attacked the Capitol Police. It's all right 00:11:58.789 --> 00:12:01.409 that you were trying to kill the vice president 00:12:01.409 --> 00:12:05.529 of the United States. It was all right that you 00:12:05.529 --> 00:12:08.950 broke into the people's house. It was all right 00:12:08.950 --> 00:12:12.289 that you were a violent mob. You committed crimes. 00:12:13.549 --> 00:12:16.250 You don't need much more of a red line than that. 00:12:16.789 --> 00:12:20.070 Having said that, the successive days, up till 00:12:20.070 --> 00:12:25.110 today have won over and over again. I don't know 00:12:25.110 --> 00:12:27.129 if the metaphor of crossing a red line works 00:12:27.129 --> 00:12:28.870 anymore, because you can really only cross a 00:12:28.870 --> 00:12:32.629 red line once, right? It's more of a red carpet. 00:12:32.850 --> 00:12:35.289 It's a red carpet. That's a much better way to 00:12:35.289 --> 00:12:38.110 say it, because we're seeing over and over again 00:12:38.110 --> 00:12:44.610 the telltale signs, the indicators of growing 00:12:44.610 --> 00:12:48.889 autocracy. He's doing the things that we've seen 00:12:48.889 --> 00:12:52.490 dictators and want -to -be dictators do over 00:12:52.490 --> 00:12:56.029 and over and over again. It's pretty simple wanting 00:12:56.029 --> 00:12:59.590 to become a dictator. There's some boxes you 00:12:59.590 --> 00:13:02.029 need to check, there's some things you need to 00:13:02.029 --> 00:13:05.990 do, and he's doing all of them. And up until 00:13:05.990 --> 00:13:09.690 today, So I know that the steady state tries 00:13:09.690 --> 00:13:12.570 to apply some U .S. intelligence community analytic 00:13:12.570 --> 00:13:16.529 tradecraft to assess these domestic democratic 00:13:16.529 --> 00:13:18.690 conditions in the United States and their erosion. 00:13:19.149 --> 00:13:22.029 How did you ensure that this analysis remains 00:13:22.029 --> 00:13:27.750 nonpartisan? It's interesting. Let me back away 00:13:27.750 --> 00:13:29.309 from that just a second to tell you how it came 00:13:29.309 --> 00:13:31.549 to be that we decided to do this. We've been 00:13:31.549 --> 00:13:33.570 talking about existential threat and you just 00:13:33.570 --> 00:13:35.870 heard me talking about it. think you're going 00:13:35.870 --> 00:13:37.830 to hear a lot of people on this podcast talking 00:13:37.830 --> 00:13:40.490 about it. Now, first, I'm not an analyst, but 00:13:40.490 --> 00:13:43.690 we have a lot of analysts in our group. And at 00:13:43.690 --> 00:13:46.590 some point over the summer, we sort of realized 00:13:46.590 --> 00:13:49.149 that, wait a second, we're former professional 00:13:49.149 --> 00:13:52.250 intelligence officers. And if you sit around 00:13:52.250 --> 00:13:54.710 talking about existential threats and you do 00:13:54.710 --> 00:13:59.029 work for the CIA or DIA or INR at State Department, 00:13:59.230 --> 00:14:01.450 somebody is going to say, you know, we're paying 00:14:01.450 --> 00:14:05.299 you to put this down on paper and stopped us 00:14:05.299 --> 00:14:08.259 talking about existential threats, described 00:14:08.259 --> 00:14:11.539 them with precision, with rigor, and used the 00:14:11.539 --> 00:14:15.159 analytic tradecraft that we have taught you to 00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:19.259 do in the intelligence community. So we did exactly 00:14:19.259 --> 00:14:23.320 that. And the way we tried to ensure that bias 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:25.559 wouldn't creep in, that partisanship wouldn't 00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:28.179 creep in, that politicization wouldn't keep in, 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:31.759 is we did what we had learned. We knew what the 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:34.429 traps were. It's been written about a lot, and 00:14:34.429 --> 00:14:36.649 there's been some failures of the intelligence 00:14:36.649 --> 00:14:39.809 community in terms of bias and groupthink, and 00:14:39.809 --> 00:14:44.090 even politicization. And we said, well, how do 00:14:44.090 --> 00:14:46.669 we avoid that? So here's how we did it. One, 00:14:46.730 --> 00:14:48.929 we got professional analysts. Nobody got to write 00:14:48.929 --> 00:14:51.710 our analytic piece that we wrote over the summer 00:14:51.710 --> 00:14:54.210 and into October assessing this, which is now 00:14:54.210 --> 00:14:59.710 up on our website, www .thesteadystate .org. 00:15:00.289 --> 00:15:02.960 Nobody got to write it. unless they were a professional 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:06.679 analyst. My job as executive director was actually 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:09.240 to commission it, to put together what are called 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:12.539 the KIQs, the key intelligence questions. That's 00:15:12.539 --> 00:15:14.580 a technique from the intelligence community. 00:15:14.659 --> 00:15:17.460 You figure out the people you're writing this 00:15:17.460 --> 00:15:20.500 for, what do they want to know? Why are you writing 00:15:20.500 --> 00:15:22.620 it for them? What is the key intelligence questions 00:15:22.620 --> 00:15:25.179 that they want an analyst to answer? I helped 00:15:25.179 --> 00:15:28.139 formulate that because I was the stand -in for 00:15:28.139 --> 00:15:32.100 the consumer. By the way, the consumer, unlike 00:15:32.100 --> 00:15:34.019 in the intelligence community where it's the 00:15:34.019 --> 00:15:36.360 president and the secretaries of the various 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:38.559 departments combatant commanders and the Joint 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:41.059 Chiefs of Staff in Congress. The only one of 00:15:41.059 --> 00:15:42.860 them that was sort of left that was a consumer 00:15:42.860 --> 00:15:44.940 was at least part of the Congress. But the big 00:15:44.940 --> 00:15:47.039 consumer for us is if you're listening to this 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:49.899 podcast, we wrote that for you. You're the consumer. 00:15:50.580 --> 00:15:53.039 And so we figured out what are those key intelligence 00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:57.620 questions. And then my job from then on was to 00:15:57.620 --> 00:16:00.740 keep my mouth shut. I'm not telling any of these 00:16:00.740 --> 00:16:03.360 people what to conclude. I'm just going to bother 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:04.919 them every week and ask them if they're done 00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:08.220 yet, which was my main job was to be a real pain 00:16:08.220 --> 00:16:13.960 in terms of getting it done. They were told everything 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:17.500 you learned in tradecraft, analytic tradecraft. 00:16:20.620 --> 00:16:23.059 sticks and bricks, as we say, the recruitment 00:16:23.059 --> 00:16:25.440 techniques. I'm talking about the analytic tradecraft. 00:16:25.580 --> 00:16:28.480 You apply that here. So work in a group. Watch 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:32.399 out for bias. Don't come up with conclusions 00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:35.820 that cannot be backed up with specific evidence. 00:16:36.179 --> 00:16:39.100 It's all the rigor that is brought to the table 00:16:39.100 --> 00:16:42.679 at CIA and DIA and FBI and places like that. 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:46.620 I think it worked. This document that our group 00:16:46.750 --> 00:16:50.269 put together, identifying core trends, driving 00:16:50.269 --> 00:16:54.730 authoritarian dynamics. Of all these trends, 00:16:54.889 --> 00:16:56.950 what do you feel is the most important warning 00:16:56.950 --> 00:16:59.090 or aspect that the public should pay attention 00:16:59.090 --> 00:17:02.269 to? What is in your opinion, Steve? I know you've 00:17:02.269 --> 00:17:05.329 got a deep background in law and in intelligence. 00:17:05.930 --> 00:17:08.750 You've served not only at CIA, but Homeland Security. 00:17:08.970 --> 00:17:11.150 You served the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:14.859 What do you think would be the key warning or 00:17:14.859 --> 00:17:17.220 aspect that the public should pay attention to? 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:19.680 I mean, we talk about red lines, maybe a red 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:21.460 flashing light, a siren going on. A red flashing 00:17:21.460 --> 00:17:24.440 light. I almost hate to choose among the sort 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:26.240 of categories because that's how we look. We 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:28.640 had a number of categories, but I'll tell you 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:30.740 one that is near and dear to us and which we 00:17:30.740 --> 00:17:34.180 know the most about and is the real red, red, 00:17:34.460 --> 00:17:38.869 waving red banner and flag, which is the the 00:17:38.869 --> 00:17:41.829 taking of the security services, and Mark, did 00:17:41.829 --> 00:17:44.910 I use that word security services? The security 00:17:44.910 --> 00:17:48.529 services and turning them from a defensive set 00:17:48.529 --> 00:17:55.049 of organizations to essentially a guard of the 00:17:55.049 --> 00:17:58.099 leadership. to defend the leader. What do I mean 00:17:58.099 --> 00:18:01.220 by that? Many, many countries have national security 00:18:01.220 --> 00:18:03.279 communities, just like the ones we come from. 00:18:03.579 --> 00:18:06.319 And it usually involves the military, the intelligence 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:09.319 services, and the national law enforcement services. 00:18:10.299 --> 00:18:14.680 When CIA people talk about the ones like us who 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:16.980 are working overseas, we use a different phrase, 00:18:17.140 --> 00:18:19.980 the national security community or anything like 00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:22.359 that. We usually call them the security services. 00:18:23.420 --> 00:18:26.779 And we are very well aware of how dangerous they 00:18:26.779 --> 00:18:29.440 can be. And they're also the first thing that 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:32.460 the want -to -be dictator reaches to in the toolkit. 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:36.539 So if you could imagine the old grainy footage 00:18:36.539 --> 00:18:40.559 of Mussolini on a balcony looking out over the 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:43.539 crowd, you look at any of them, whether it's 00:18:43.539 --> 00:18:46.460 Argentina or in Serbia, wherever, you see those 00:18:46.460 --> 00:18:49.640 films, you'll always see. or almost always see 00:18:49.640 --> 00:18:52.380 two sort of shadowy figures standing two steps 00:18:52.380 --> 00:18:54.440 back, two steps to the left and right. Well, 00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:56.119 one of them's the head of the army and one of 00:18:56.119 --> 00:18:58.099 them's the head of the intelligence services. 00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:02.119 They're the bad guys usually. And so the red 00:19:02.119 --> 00:19:05.259 flag for us, and it's also emotionally hard for 00:19:05.259 --> 00:19:07.740 us, because we love the places we worked and 00:19:07.740 --> 00:19:11.000 we're proud of the places we worked, that they 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:16.319 are being turned into instruments of putting 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:19.690 Donald Trump in power. and keeping him in power. 00:19:20.529 --> 00:19:23.190 Not only that, but there has been a mass purge 00:19:23.190 --> 00:19:25.470 in several of these organizations in the FBI, 00:19:25.869 --> 00:19:31.109 in the CIA, in DIA, in NSA, of patriotic, hard 00:19:31.109 --> 00:19:33.529 -working intelligence officers, very talented 00:19:33.529 --> 00:19:37.250 intelligence officers. and either because they're 00:19:37.250 --> 00:19:40.190 suspected of being disloyal to the White House 00:19:40.190 --> 00:19:43.450 or have had the temerity of maybe speaking out 00:19:43.450 --> 00:19:45.549 and refusing to do things that the White House 00:19:45.549 --> 00:19:48.029 wanted. What are your feelings about this? To 00:19:48.029 --> 00:19:52.329 me, it makes my stomach ill. It certainly hurts 00:19:52.329 --> 00:19:55.829 me in the stomach, too. The brain part of me 00:19:55.829 --> 00:19:58.910 is also saying, hey, look at other dictators 00:19:58.910 --> 00:20:01.509 that we have watched overseas. What is the first 00:20:01.509 --> 00:20:04.410 thing they do? purge the army, purge the intelligence 00:20:04.410 --> 00:20:07.450 circumstances, purge their equivalent of the 00:20:07.450 --> 00:20:10.490 FBI. You got to do that or you're not going to 00:20:10.490 --> 00:20:13.470 make it to the kind of power you want. So it's 00:20:13.470 --> 00:20:17.710 both painful to see and terrifying to see. And 00:20:17.710 --> 00:20:20.150 it's not done in a vacuum. I mentioned there 00:20:20.150 --> 00:20:23.849 are other areas where the flags are waving because 00:20:23.849 --> 00:20:25.930 you got to fight on a couple of fronts if you're 00:20:25.930 --> 00:20:29.529 a dictator who want to be dictator. So you got 00:20:29.529 --> 00:20:32.730 your security services in hand, you're purging, 00:20:32.990 --> 00:20:35.970 you're pushing, you're pressuring. Now you have 00:20:35.970 --> 00:20:39.630 to turn to the judiciary and the legal system 00:20:39.630 --> 00:20:41.569 because you don't want them to stop you. You 00:20:41.569 --> 00:20:44.009 can't have an independent judiciary. So you start 00:20:44.009 --> 00:20:48.150 attacking judges. Usually starts out relatively 00:20:48.150 --> 00:20:50.789 benign. Benign is not the right word. You call 00:20:50.789 --> 00:20:52.490 them names. You say you're not going to follow 00:20:52.490 --> 00:20:55.730 their orders. You call them traitorous or left 00:20:55.730 --> 00:20:58.589 -wing lunatic judges. You go after the lawyers. 00:20:58.890 --> 00:21:02.009 I always joke, Shakespeare wrote, first, let's 00:21:02.009 --> 00:21:05.190 kill all the lawyers. Well, that's not about 00:21:05.190 --> 00:21:07.769 not liking lawyers. The two guys in that scene 00:21:07.769 --> 00:21:11.569 talking to each other are minions of a dictator 00:21:11.569 --> 00:21:14.529 you want to be. They are saying, if we are going 00:21:14.529 --> 00:21:18.150 to be the tyrant or the helpers of tyrants that 00:21:18.150 --> 00:21:20.630 we want to be, first thing you got to do is kill 00:21:20.630 --> 00:21:23.450 all the lawyers because they'll stop the tyranny. 00:21:23.970 --> 00:21:27.890 It's actually very positive about the legal profession. 00:21:28.839 --> 00:21:31.240 So that's a place you're going to look. Another 00:21:31.240 --> 00:21:33.740 place that's a red flag, and I'll leave it at 00:21:33.740 --> 00:21:37.160 that, is academia and the media, the two places 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:41.480 that help us talk and think and speak and argue 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:44.160 and do all the messiness of democracy, which 00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:46.279 includes trying to persuade each other of things 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:48.640 and sometimes yelling at each other. And we've 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:51.359 seen that over and over again. So the red carpet. 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:53.720 I love that phrase. Jim, I'm going to use it 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:58.440 over and over. the red carpet is unrolling and 00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:01.440 he, you know, President Trump is staggering down 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:05.039 that red carpet with great speed, sometimes with 00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:07.079 not a lot of precision, but he's going down that 00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:10.180 red carpet and that's what it entails. Well, 00:22:10.180 --> 00:22:12.539 you hit the nail on the head when you said that 00:22:12.539 --> 00:22:15.960 one thing that really stands in front of authoritarianism 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:18.619 is not only the lawyers, but also the press, 00:22:18.819 --> 00:22:23.140 the media. I'm a strict adherent to the First 00:22:23.140 --> 00:22:25.119 Amendment. In fact, I'm not sure if the First 00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:28.619 Amendment has any limits in my opinion, because 00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:31.119 my limits may not be your limits, or your limits 00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:35.160 are not my limit. And I do believe that we need 00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:38.319 a vigorous free press, a vigorous First Amendment, 00:22:39.220 --> 00:22:41.460 and that it will be only the journalists and 00:22:41.460 --> 00:22:45.880 the free press that keeps us truly free. I completely 00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:50.240 agree. I completely agree on that. So since this 00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:52.339 assessment was released, have you seen any other 00:22:52.339 --> 00:22:54.700 events, and I'm sure they're legion, that have 00:22:54.700 --> 00:22:57.039 been unfolded that are, you know, concerning 00:22:57.039 --> 00:23:00.119 us in terms of accelerating this democratic decline? 00:23:00.859 --> 00:23:03.660 Any other little examples that you, that the 00:23:03.660 --> 00:23:05.519 things that you wake up and you say, I can't 00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:08.259 believe this is happening? Well, I mean, the 00:23:08.259 --> 00:23:10.690 last three weeks have been... Perfect. There 00:23:10.690 --> 00:23:12.829 have been so many, but the most dramatic and 00:23:12.829 --> 00:23:15.589 the most terrifying is what we're seeing in terms 00:23:15.589 --> 00:23:18.410 of the president's exercising what he sees as 00:23:18.410 --> 00:23:22.609 his commander -in -chief authorities, ignoring 00:23:22.609 --> 00:23:26.150 a well -established law that requires congressional 00:23:26.150 --> 00:23:29.430 involvement in deciding to attack another country. 00:23:30.849 --> 00:23:35.309 Speaking about Venezuela here, that was then 00:23:35.309 --> 00:23:41.200 sort of accelerated by a program of killing civilians 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:44.759 who are perceived to be committing crimes. There's 00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:46.779 a word for that. We use that when we're looking 00:23:46.779 --> 00:23:50.000 at overseas entities. It's called extrajudicial 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:52.960 killings. In layman's terms, it's called murders. 00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:57.359 You can't do that. It's against international 00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:01.279 law, it's against our law, and it is an action 00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:05.819 of a dictator becoming a dictator. Not only because 00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:08.680 he's doing what he wants unilaterally as if he's 00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:11.740 an emperor, not a president, but it is a signal 00:24:11.740 --> 00:24:14.099 to all of this. Remember, one of the first things 00:24:14.099 --> 00:24:16.079 he said when he ran for president is, I could 00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:17.759 shoot somebody in the middle of Fifth Avenue 00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:20.380 and nobody would stop me. Well, he's shooting 00:24:20.380 --> 00:24:23.000 people and he's putting it on video for us to 00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:26.769 see. We're the audience there. I know that the 00:24:26.769 --> 00:24:28.490 president of Venezuela is also the audience, 00:24:29.069 --> 00:24:32.950 but we are the audience there. And it's the same 00:24:32.950 --> 00:24:35.109 kind of thing when we're seeing the unending 00:24:35.109 --> 00:24:38.670 videos of ICE beating up people on the streets, 00:24:39.069 --> 00:24:41.349 picking up the wrong people, handcuffing children. 00:24:41.950 --> 00:24:45.650 It's not just because of the brutality of it, 00:24:46.329 --> 00:24:48.650 or whether it's some anger or racism against 00:24:48.650 --> 00:24:52.140 people from other places. It's a message. It's 00:24:52.140 --> 00:24:56.519 a message to all of us. Now, the last week and 00:24:56.519 --> 00:25:00.200 a half, where we saw the vicious response to 00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:02.259 members of Congress, all of whom who come out 00:25:02.259 --> 00:25:06.160 of the national security world, not really criticizing, 00:25:06.380 --> 00:25:10.579 but essentially reciting black letter basic American 00:25:10.579 --> 00:25:13.960 law governing the military. You don't follow 00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:18.400 unlawful orders. It's not a tradition. It's a 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.319 fundamental way that we look at things in the 00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:25.680 United States military. By the way, people who 00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:28.960 think we're disrespecting the military by repeating 00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:32.460 that particular thing, that's dead wrong. It's 00:25:32.460 --> 00:25:35.440 what our military is probably most proud of. 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:38.599 We're not the Russian army. We're not the German 00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:42.259 army. We are the American army. We follow laws. 00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:46.220 This comes out of the experience of World War 00:25:46.220 --> 00:25:53.980 II and the Nuremberg trials. Today, we saw basically 00:25:53.980 --> 00:25:56.799 the press secretary in the White House. Casually, 00:25:56.940 --> 00:25:59.160 it said, yeah, we killed those guys floating 00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:05.380 in the water. That's a homicide, and it's horrible. 00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:09.519 It reminded me of something the Russians would 00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:12.579 do or something that the SS in World War II would 00:26:12.579 --> 00:26:15.680 do, execute people who have surrendered. It made 00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:19.359 me sick when I heard about this. Before our time 00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:22.660 is up, if you could advise listeners on one actionable 00:26:22.660 --> 00:26:25.500 step to bolster our democratic resilience, what 00:26:25.500 --> 00:26:28.440 would that one step be, Steve? The first step, 00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:30.579 and I'll give you a couple of other ones, but 00:26:30.579 --> 00:26:33.180 the first step, and we have a cute hashtag on 00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:35.819 this too, and it's why we exist, is get smart. 00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:39.880 You remember the old television show. If there's 00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:42.079 ever a time that the American people have to 00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:44.380 take the civics classes that were canceled in 00:26:44.380 --> 00:26:47.059 our high schools 20 years ago, it's now. You 00:26:47.059 --> 00:26:50.019 need to learn what's happening. You need to read 00:26:50.019 --> 00:26:53.119 critically. You need to do all the things that 00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:55.839 a dictator doesn't want you to do, which is learn, 00:26:56.059 --> 00:27:00.279 speak, persuade, take positions. And then two 00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:02.539 other things you're going to have to do, and 00:27:02.539 --> 00:27:07.299 all of us are going to have to do. One. Organize 00:27:07.299 --> 00:27:10.200 and vote. Just going to have to happen. We're 00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:13.200 a democracy still. This is how we can save the 00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:18.759 democracy. Our life vote is our vote. So vote, 00:27:18.779 --> 00:27:22.500 vote, vote. And the other is not only organize 00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:26.420 yourselves, but reach across. Before the Trump 00:27:26.420 --> 00:27:30.359 era, we had plenty of policy issues that deeply, 00:27:30.380 --> 00:27:32.819 deeply divided many Americans. And we yelled 00:27:32.819 --> 00:27:35.509 and screamed at each other. We voted for different 00:27:35.509 --> 00:27:37.829 people to carry them out. And that's great. That's 00:27:37.829 --> 00:27:40.170 what's supposed to happen in democracy. Whether 00:27:40.170 --> 00:27:44.430 you think A or B on Israel and Palestine or abortion 00:27:44.430 --> 00:27:49.150 or climate change, that's great. But what's in 00:27:49.150 --> 00:27:51.650 danger is your ability to actually argue about 00:27:51.650 --> 00:27:54.589 those policies. I just spoke at a college that 00:27:54.589 --> 00:27:57.509 had been roiled by these demonstrations on Palestine 00:27:57.509 --> 00:28:00.690 and Israel. And I knew that in the audience were 00:28:00.690 --> 00:28:04.119 people on both sides of that. And I said at the 00:28:04.119 --> 00:28:07.500 way we're going, you are not going to be able 00:28:07.500 --> 00:28:11.200 to help argue, decide anything about our policy 00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:13.319 in the Middle East. It's going to be decided 00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:15.859 in the sit room with Donald Trump and a few of 00:28:15.859 --> 00:28:18.599 his kids and maybe a few billionaires, he knows. 00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:21.220 And you'll have nothing to do with it. So you 00:28:21.220 --> 00:28:24.519 need to defend that. And those are the two. Those 00:28:24.519 --> 00:28:27.859 are the three steps I gave. Get smart, organized 00:28:27.859 --> 00:28:30.309 and across the aisle. Yeah, those are those are 00:28:30.309 --> 00:28:34.130 excellent recommendations. So if we had one overarching 00:28:34.130 --> 00:28:36.789 message from the steady state to all Americans 00:28:36.789 --> 00:28:38.670 who are listening to this, what would it be to 00:28:38.670 --> 00:28:40.769 help safeguard our democracy? You've already 00:28:40.769 --> 00:28:44.250 said vote, and I think that's a key vote. Keep 00:28:44.250 --> 00:28:46.210 an open mind. What else? What else would you 00:28:46.210 --> 00:28:50.109 recommend, Steve? I think you have to get your 00:28:50.109 --> 00:28:53.029 your brain around something that's so hard to 00:28:53.029 --> 00:28:55.289 think about and it's so unpleasant and horrible, 00:28:55.450 --> 00:28:58.859 which is. Our nation is in existential danger 00:28:58.859 --> 00:29:01.440 that we have never faced, certainly since the 00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:04.559 Civil War. It's horrible to think about that. 00:29:04.660 --> 00:29:06.960 It's horrible to think that we're all in danger, 00:29:07.099 --> 00:29:09.279 that we are at risk. You're going to have to 00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:12.500 have conversations around the family table that 00:29:12.500 --> 00:29:15.339 you never thought you were going to have. Should 00:29:15.339 --> 00:29:17.579 you speak out? I'm thinking of writing a letter 00:29:17.579 --> 00:29:19.779 to the editor. Should I? Could that put my kids 00:29:19.779 --> 00:29:23.519 in danger? That's what lots of people all around 00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:26.240 the world have faced and many of them have risen 00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:28.960 to the occasion and been brave and courageous 00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:32.299 in all different ways and in all different degrees. 00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:35.559 We really haven't had to do that across the nation, 00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:39.359 and we have to now. That's the message, is an 00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:42.039 existential threat, and now we need America to 00:29:42.039 --> 00:29:45.299 meet it. Well, I was shocked when I read about 00:29:45.299 --> 00:29:48.039 the fact that the six congressmen and senators 00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:51.559 who spoke out saying that military and intelligence 00:29:51.559 --> 00:29:54.900 officers do not have to follow illegal orders 00:29:54.900 --> 00:29:57.440 and people criticized them for saying that, when 00:29:57.440 --> 00:29:59.559 in fact it's part of the Uniform Code of Military 00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:03.019 Justice. And obviously if somebody gave me an 00:30:03.019 --> 00:30:05.079 order that I thought was unconstitutional or 00:30:05.079 --> 00:30:07.500 illegal, I wouldn't follow it. But just saying 00:30:07.500 --> 00:30:10.279 that intelligence officers and military officers 00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:13.920 should follow the law, no, they don't have to 00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:16.579 follow orders if it's illegal. That was shocking. 00:30:17.160 --> 00:30:20.720 That was shocking to me. Absolutely. And it's 00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:24.059 important both to understand that, but also to 00:30:24.059 --> 00:30:27.960 recognize what that means. Because if the military 00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:31.740 and the intelligence services can follow illegal 00:30:31.740 --> 00:30:35.579 orders, that is the communication method. That's 00:30:35.579 --> 00:30:38.460 the toolbox of the dictator, is giving illegal 00:30:38.460 --> 00:30:43.579 orders. That's how it's done. And so, yeah, it 00:30:43.579 --> 00:30:46.960 was heartsick. I was heartsick to hear that. 00:30:47.539 --> 00:30:51.859 But I am optimistic. I always tell people like 00:30:51.859 --> 00:30:55.000 all of this bleakness, it's what keeps me up 00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:57.740 at night. But the optimism gets me up in the 00:30:57.740 --> 00:31:00.940 morning and back to work at steady state because 00:31:00.940 --> 00:31:05.079 Americans have risen to the occasion before and 00:31:05.079 --> 00:31:07.920 we can do it again. Well, Steve, thank you so 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:10.440 much for being on our. This is our really our 00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:13.099 initial program of the steady state sentinel. 00:31:13.539 --> 00:31:16.690 And it was a tremendously. Wonderful to have 00:31:16.690 --> 00:31:21.029 you here and to outline the the reasons why the 00:31:21.029 --> 00:31:24.390 steady state exists. And as Steve said, WWW dot 00:31:24.390 --> 00:31:27.369 the steady state dot org. And we will be coming 00:31:27.369 --> 00:31:30.490 back in another week with another episode. I'm 00:31:30.490 --> 00:31:33.569 Jim Lawler, the steady state sentinel still standing 00:31:33.569 --> 00:31:39.230 watch. Thank you for listening to the steady 00:31:39.230 --> 00:31:42.859 state sentinel podcast. Don't miss out on more 00:31:42.859 --> 00:31:46.119 insights and exposés from America's premier global 00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:49.400 security experts. Also, subscribe to our sub 00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:53.519 stack at substack .com slash at steady state 00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:56.880 one and follow our social media and join us right 00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:59.019 here next week for another exciting addition. 00:32:00.339 --> 00:32:02.640 The steady state is a nonprofit organization 00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:05.319 working to sustain our democracy and national 00:32:05.319 --> 00:32:09.109 security. Join us and support our mission. by 00:32:09.109 --> 00:32:12.369 visiting www .thesteadystate .org.