The Steady State Sentinel is produced by the
Steady State, a community of former national
security professionals who spent their careers
safeguarding the United States at home and abroad.
Today, we continue that mission by staying true
to our oaths to defend the Constitution, uphold
our democracy, and protect our nation's security.
Join our expert hosts as they interview field
-tested guests whose unique experiences shed
light on the crises and challenges facing our
nation. Welcome to the Steady State Sentinel.
I'm Lauren Anderson. joined by Jim Lawler, Peter
Mina, and John Seifer. We're launching this podcast
at a time when our democracy faces real threats.
The guardrails we trusted are eroding, respect
for the rule of law is slipping, and too many
of our leaders are no longer accountable to the
people they serve. We've spent our careers defending
those guardrails, both at home and around the
world. We've seen what healthy democracies look
like. and we've seen the warning signs when they
begin to decline. That's why we're beginning
with January 6th, where we were, what we thought,
and why that day still matters. We also know
people experienced that day in different ways.
Some were horrified. Others were confused. Some
supported the protest but rejected the violence.
And some remain unsure what to believe. This
space is for all of you. Our goal is to speak
objectively and factually about the trends that
accelerate democratic decline. We see it in executive
overreach, the manipulation of national security,
attacks on our institutions, and the erosion
of public trust. We'll talk about what all this
means, not just for the Constitution and the
rule of law, but for your life and your community.
We want this to be a conversation. Your questions,
concerns, and ideas will shape future episodes.
Whether you agree with us or not, your voice
has a place here. Democracy thrives when people
stay informed, engaged, and willing to talk with
one another, even when it's hard. Today, we'll
start by introducing ourselves, who we are, why
we're here, and why January 6th was a turning
point for each of us. We're glad you're with
us. And Jim, would you like to lead off? Thank
you, Lauren. I'm Jim Lawler. For 25 years, I
was an operations officer with the Central Intelligence
Agency. And on January the 19th, 1980, I swore
an oath to the Constitution. And I've upheld
that oath for the last 45 years. And I was very,
very proud of the fact that... My fellow CIA
officers and FBI special agents have done the
same, and I'm very troubled today as to what
I'm seeing, as Lauren put it, the erosion of
our democratic institutions. On January the 6th,
the thing that struck me was I had been in a
bad accident a few days earlier, and I was bedridden,
and I was watching with horror unfold. the storming
of the Capitol, something that had not happened,
at least not in my lifetime. And I watched this
and I felt kind of like the actor Jimmy Stewart
in Rear Window watching horror unfold and he
could do nothing about it. And I was motivated
to participate in this program, this Steady State
Sentinel program, because of... A few lines that
I remembered from the famous German pastor, Martin
Niemöller, who said, first they came for the
socialists and I did not speak out because I
was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade
unionists and I did not speak out because I was
not a trade unionist. And then they came for
the Jews and I did not speak out because I'm
not a Jew. Then they came for me and there was
no one left to speak for me. And I'm very, very
concerned about that. And so when I was asked
to. help host these programs, I thought we need
to take a steady stand with a steady state and
speak out. Well, Jim, a lot of this, a lot of
what you said just resonates so much with me.
And for everyone, my name is Peter Mina. I spent
14 years at the Department of Homeland Security,
including six running the labor and employment
law program at ICE. And then another six years
at DHS's Office for Civil Rights and Civil Liberties,
including running the office for about a six
-month period through inauguration and the transition.
And January 6th was a very strange time for me.
I was at the Office for Civil Rights and Civil
Liberties. We were in the throes of the pandemic.
I was sitting at home on my computer. watching,
almost feeling somewhat helpless, watching the
news and hearing what was going on and being
at the department, you were getting sort of these
updates about what was happening in real time.
And it was horrifying. And particularly at a
civil rights office, there was real concern about
what this meant, not just for... the people,
unfortunately, at the Capitol and that we're
facing real harm, but what it meant for the country
and what it meant for us as an office that was
trying to make sure that civil rights and civil
liberties were protected at a department that's
now, you know, squarely front and center as to
what the government is doing. And so for me,
the other kind of inflection point and why I'm
here and why I'm a member of the steady state.
was March 21st of this year, which is when the
department and the administration announced that
my office, the Office for Civil Rights and Solidarities,
was going to be eliminated. And at that point,
and it's something that I had been thinking about
for some time, I just decided that, look, this
isn't consistent with my values. It's not consistent
with why I chose to serve. as I'm sure it wouldn't
be for all of you. And for many of the folks
that are listening that have gone through similar
horrors at their federal workplaces or even elsewhere.
And so I think it also, in a real hurry, makes
you really clear on what your values are and
what matters most. And honestly, what doesn't
matter much at all. And so with that, I felt
I couldn't be a spectator anymore. I had to go
out and do something. I had to stand up for people
that were too afraid to do it themselves. And
so I just decided it was time to find another
way to serve. And so this is the way I've chosen
to serve. Thanks, Peter. Thanks, Jim. My name
is John Seifer. I spent 28 years in the clandestine
service of the Central Intelligence Agency, serving
at lots of places around the world. And I loved
and I'm proud of my service. And I believe that
our institutions are gems that the public would
be really proud of if they knew the work that
those people did every day. And frankly, January
6th, but also even more than that, I'm upset
about how those public institutions are being
undermined for petty and partisan reasons. And
frankly, I've seen what happens in other countries
when authoritarian governments take over or that
when they're... public servants are denigrated.
And I also believe that those of us who served
have an obligation to help educate the public
to what we do. And so as such, I'm proud to be
part of the steady state as well. Thanks. And
I'm Lauren Anderson again. Like Jim, like Peter
and John, I took an oath 41 years ago, and it
still resonates with me today. I spent 29 years
with the FBI. Working both in the United States
as well as abroad in Europe, Africa and the Middle
East. Very strong background in counterintelligence
and counterterrorism, running the Joint Terrorism
Task Force in New York. And I loved it. I loved
every minute of that career. And after leaving
the FBI, I focused on trying to find a way to
continue giving. And one of the ways I've done
that and continued serving. is as an advisor
to our U .S. Comptroller General at the Government
Accountability Office, which is the real doge.
It is the real institution that's been around
for more than 100 years to focus on fraud, waste
and abuse and mismanagement within the government.
And they do an extraordinary job. And I can remember
January 6th so clearly because I was literally
on a Zoom call. with two colleagues who are in
an international organization with me, and they
were seeking my guidance on how we might balance
the competing views in the organization post
the election, because I was lucky enough to be
somebody who could move readily among all the
different constituent groups. And at the same
time, I was literally preparing for a presentation
as a guest lecturer at NYU in their master's
program in international affairs. on domestic
terrorism. And so literally to know I would be
walking into a virtual classroom with students
from all over the globe, just two weeks later,
struck me in an extraordinary way. And it drove
it home for me. And I felt so strongly that I
wanted to keep continuing giving, which I have.
But I have to agree with Peter that earlier this
year, Things also changed in a more significant
way for me personally as I watched enormous changes
going on within the FBI, an institution I love,
and people that I care deeply about who were
being removed for doing their jobs and no other
reason. I've watched leader after leader dismissed
because they wouldn't play along with a political
game. In one instance, a friend of mine who was
heading the Salt Lake City office, was dismissed
two weeks before Charlie Kirk was assassinated.
And absolutely zero reason. And so for me, I
can't, like everyone else in this group, I can't
sit by and watch this. I am compelled to do what
I can. And if it's my voice that I can use in
helping to share experiences and encourage everybody
to talk, not only... the four of us, but all
of the people that we'll be speaking with on
the podcast, then that's a great thing because
I'm a big believer in bringing everyone in. And
the more we can get from people who have disparate
viewpoints, the better, because hopefully that
starts a dialogue for all of us. Lauren, I feel
like I could just say ditto. I think that for
me, you know, it makes me really think about
why I want to be part of this podcast. And I
think that. I am fortunate enough to have an
opportunity to really talk about the intersection
of national security with civil rights and civil
liberties, which couldn't be more important than
right now. And I see it every single day. And
to your point about working, you know, with the
GAO or the government accountability office,
you know, I, as part of oversight, that also
is, I feel like part of my responsibility now
as a private citizen. um to try and really illustrate
what the guard rails should be and that these
two concepts of protecting people's rights and
liberties and securing our nation are not mutually
exclusive they are they rely on each other and
i also think that we have a very profound responsibility
as people that have been in the government in
the national security enterprise to use this
platform to really make what's happening in washington
real for the person in nebraska or in el paso
texas or in chicago and you know more and more
of this is this effort by the administration
is coming to people's doorsteps and you know
i think that it is up to us to really show folks
that this isn't some abstract idea in Washington.
It affects each one of us every single day in
profound ways. And if we don't use our voices,
the outcome is not going to be good, not just
for you and I, but for us as a nation. Thanks
for that. Like Jim, I worked in the clandestine
service, in the secret side of the CIA, running
and recruiting spies overseas. And I remember
one time when we had one new director, General
Hayden, he spoke about the obligation. If you
work in a secret organization for the U .S. government,
the U .S. government is often uncomfortable.
American citizens are often uncomfortable with
secrecy and what that means. His point was that
the leadership of the organization and as you
retire and go out, we have an obligation to the
public to try to explain what it is we do, how
we do it and why we do it. Certainly, we need
to protect serious secrets, but we also have
an obligation to the public. And since I retired,
I've taken that seriously. I write, I've written
for a lot of op -ed pieces for The New York Times,
Washington Post, Atlantic and other places. I
speak on podcasts and television when it makes
sense. oftentimes about Russia and what I learned
from working there. But I also agree with Jim,
Lauren, and Peter that, you know, what we're
seeing now is an attack on some of those First
Amendment rights, an attack on what public servants
are doing, and an attack on giving the public
real information. So we're trying to put out
what we learned in our experience. either throughout
the government or around the world to try to
let people know what's important to us so that
people can sift that and make their own decisions
on things. So I think the Steady State podcast
is going to be a place where we bring in a lot
of different voices to talk about their experiences.
And I think the common denominator is going to
be what we believe is country over party. We're
all patriots. We all care about this country
very strongly. And there's different ways to
do that. And I think that's the kind of thing
we're going to talk about on the podcast. Building
on John's comments just now, I have a feeling
he shares with me the fact that prior to the
election in 2016, the first Trump election, I
never knew, nor did I care what the political
affiliation of any of my colleagues was. I never
knew. I didn't care. And I'll be totally candid.
I am or was, past tense, a moderate Republican.
I'm not sure that those exist anymore. I hate
to say that. But back then, back, you know, prior
to the 2016 election. I didn't know. We didn't
wear political buttons. We weren't working for
one political party or another. We were working
for the United States and our national security.
And that's what we want to convey on this podcast
of the Steady State Sentinel, that what we do
matters for our national security. And we hate
to see the corrosion, the destruction of what
we defended, what we went out and did for so
many years. One thing I'd like to ask John, quite
frankly, I know I've known John for over 25 years,
maybe 30 years. It goes back a ways. We're both
old. Right. John is one of the best operations
officers I've ever known in the Central Intelligence
Agency. John served overseas under extremely
difficult conditions, and he did it for the United
States. And yet, I believe I'm right in this.
I think he had his clearances stripped. That
is disgraceful. He had his clearances stripped
because people think he's part of a deep state,
something that doesn't exist. And I just was
horrified when I saw John's name on this list
of people. I mean, I thought, what's next, a
list of people being sent to Guantanamo? Anyways,
actually, to be quite honest with you, when I
saw John's name on the list, I thought, well,
damn, maybe they should put my name on the list.
Soon enough, Jim. Soon enough. Right. Just a
quick follow -up on that. Yeah, there was a group
of CIA officers who signed a letter before the
2020 election warning that the Russians are likely
to try to interfere in our elections like they
did in 2016. And that became pushed for partisan
reasons by the other side. And when Trump was
elected this time, he put all of us in a presidential
order on the day he came into power. that stripped
our clearances. Now, frankly, one of the things
I think we're going to find as we talk about
what's happening now is issues related to corruption
and incompetence. Those of us who worked in the
government, you know, we took our job very seriously.
We tried to be competent. We tried to work on
behalf of the American people. Whereas I see
from this administration, there's incompetence.
And one of the incompetent thing is I had my
security clearances stripped. But I didn't have
any security clearances. I hadn't been working
in the secret sector for a number of years. So
I think they think they did something quite nasty
to me, but it didn't matter. But that goes to
incompetence. But the corruption part of it is
to attack people for exercising their First Amendment
rights and to get wrong what they claimed that
we had done. I'd like to jump in and echo that,
too, because one of the things that I always
heard overseas is that. Our counterparts, whether
it was in Europe, Africa, the Middle East, always
marveled at the fact that our institutions were
largely not confronted with dealing with politicizing
the work. We were able to do our work. And that
was something that people said over and over
to me is how great is it to work in a country
and for an organization where the politics don't
matter? And one point where I saw that really
clearly in the FBI is that. Whatever people say
on the campaign trail, what I found during the
decades I was in the Bureau is that when we put
together the national security briefings for
the incoming president, whoever he was, whichever
party he was from, we prepared those briefing
materials that the incoming president and his
team were briefed. And remarkably, no matter
what they said on that campaign trail, once they
understood the state of things in national security,
they were remarkably down a centrist line. The
politics that might have been present during
the campaign were no longer there because the
reality was national security was something that
everyone got behind. There could be differences
in domestic policy. But when it came to this.
there was remarkable commonality. And just to
speak a little bit, John, on your thread on corruption,
I agree with what you said. And in a real sense,
it's happening too, because this administration
has made the decision to not enforce, to stop
enforcement of laws that are currently on the
books that have to do with bribery, with foreign
officials. They have dismantled many of the FBI's
white -collar crime squads, in particular, the
corruption squads. They've diverted resources
to working with ICE rather than working on national
security matters. And that's a politicization
of the FBI that has not been there in 50 years
and doesn't belong there. And that is making
all of us less safe. And it goes further to the
corruption piece that is there and I think going
to continue on with us. Yeah, to add to that,
Lauren, with the FBI, they're also... diminishing
the counterintelligence and counterespionage
part of the FBI. So defending us against those
countries, those enemies abroad who want to do
damage to the United States, whether they be
Iranians, Russians, Chinese, or what have you,
the FBI's counterintelligence mission is front
and center in trying to stop that kind of either
espionage, disinformation, subversion, what have
you. And so they're breaking down barriers inside
against corruption and fraud, but also... in
terms of what external actors are up to. I'm
not quite the counterintelligence expert that
Lauren is, but for those 25 years that I was
at the CIA, my job was to recruit spies, foreign
spies. And I can tell you right now that not
once in my 25 years did I ever recruit a happy
person. I only recruited stressed out people.
And by firing a lot of national security officials
with secrets. that protect us, protect our Constitution,
protect our country. We have created a horrible
nightmare on the counterintelligence side. I'm
sure that the Chinese, the Russians, the Iranians,
and all of our adversaries are gleeful watching
this, that it's a target -rich environment. And
I don't want to cast suspicions on any of my
colleagues that got let off, but I'm telling
you, this is not the way to run a country. And
I know, Peter, if I just jump in for one second,
I know you have thoughts, too. But to echo that,
Jim, what's really important for people to understand
is, yes, we've created essentially a hunting
ground. But what's more insidious is that some
of our adversaries, in particular China and Russia,
have been very adept at using LinkedIn and other
platforms that people think are largely safe
as a means of recruiting people. And it's not
immediately evident. to any of these people who
might be looking for jobs, that they could be
dealing with an actor representing the Chinese
government or the Russian government. So I think
part of what we can each do, not necessarily,
but possibly through the podcast and outside,
is to share with our colleagues who have lost
their jobs and make them super aware of the fact
that that risk is out there in a very subtle
way as well as a very overt way. And I think
for me, you know obviously i did not have the
the honor of serving in the same way the three
of you did as operators um in the national security
space however you know i stood side by side with
those operators and i considered myself as well
as my colleagues you know national security professionals
and i you know i think about intelligence gathering
and the idea of you know looking at intelligence
products and considering you know foreign malign
influence and how that intersects with first
amendment protected activity and i think about
what's happening right now and i i see not only
the near -term effects of what's happening but
also a weakening of our national security enterprise
because we are now discouraging people that would
otherwise raise their hand to serve Because they
don't want to be part of this. And I also feel
very strongly, and I've chosen in addition to
doing this podcast and trying to speak out where
I can, I've chosen to go back into private practice
and advocate for federal employees and take on
civil rights litigation. And it stuns me that
it seems like the only law that matters. in this
current moment is the Immigration and Nationality
Act. And unfortunately, all of the wonderful,
proud, dedicated law enforcement officers in
the federal government and national security
professionals in the IC and other places are
sworn to uphold the Constitution and the laws
of the United States, not just a law. And as
someone who has seen people's rights and liberties
get trampled on in the employment context as
well as in the public sphere, it just goes against
everything I stand for. And it is really hard
to watch. Thanks for that. Peter, just to mention,
I want to stress what you guys have all mentioned,
especially Jim, is from my experience in professional
service in the government is it was apolitical
work. We were hired for professional. We were
trained for those skills. We operated on behalf
of the American people. But same thing. I worked
for almost 30 years with people around the world,
in and out, long days and all kinds of crazy
situations. We never discussed partisan politics.
We never discussed who supports who, you know,
which party, which candidate, any of that type
of thing, because we worked for the American
people. And as different administrations come
and go, they would change policies. They might
change some things, but they didn't. ask us to
operate on behalf of a single person or a single
partisan policy. It was more you're working for
the American people. And I think what's happened
is leadership now, for their own partisan reasons,
have spread this. frankly, lie that people who
work inside the government of some kind of deep
state who are working on behalf of one party
or another. So in their views, if they're not
part of one party, they're an enemy to the other
party. And that's simply not our experience.
And I think that's the thing we're going to want
to talk about on this podcast. So some of the
people that I've started to interview are people
who are in that vein that talk about country
over party. For example, I'm interviewing Adam
Kinzinger. So Adam Kinzinger was a Republican
politician in the Congress. He then served loyally
on the January 6th commission. He and Liz Cheney
were the only two Republicans on the committee.
He did Yeoman's work. And so I think we're going
to talk to him about his experience and why he,
you know, why as a Republican, he was been pushed
out of the party and pushed out of Congress.
I'm going to talk to some. former military generals
and others. I've talked to Terry Vertz, who's
a former fighter pilot and astronaut who's running
for Congress in Texas. And I think we're all
going to be talking to people. And I think you're
going to find a common thread here that people
believe that working on behalf of the country
in an apolitical way is something that's probably
better for us than this version that we're all
enemies of each other here in America. And John,
I... I feel that very personally. In October,
right before the election, not just at the Department
of Homeland Security or involving the Department
of Homeland Security, but as I understand it
at other federal agencies, watch list websites
started to pop up, you know, identifying career
civil servants as people that might be opposed
to the incoming administration. And, you know,
I have the honor or privilege, however you want
to look at it. of being on the DHS watch list,
basically for doing my job. And, you know, fine.
I was a senior executive. You know, I was out
there in the public domain. Still not fair, but
I get it. What I don't get, though, is your,
you know, GS -12, GS -13 staff person who doesn't
ask for any of this. And instead, they're being
targeted. And you can imagine the things that
are being said on social media and elsewhere.
And what has now become, you know, very real
physical threats. I had to contact my police
department about anti -swatting. I had to talk
to my kids' school. Hey, heads up, this is happening,
just in case. And no one should ever fear for
their safety, for doing their job and serving
the American people. And I think what... Again,
what this also drives home for me every time
I think about it is this is not a time to be
a spectator. We all have a responsibility to
do something. That could be as simple as having
a conversation with your neighbor about what's
going on and trying to explain, you know, what
might be a kind of a obscure or obtuse concept.
you know hey why does this affect me you know
why does what's happening you know either somewhere
around the world or somewhere in dc why does
that matter um and i and doing it in a way that
people can understand and appreciate rather than
you know we've all heard it our whole careers
you know rather than using dc speak um and i
say it as a lawyer like or sounding like a lawyer
um so I think that, you know, again, we have
a real responsibility, but it's not just the
four of us. It's every single person out there.
I agree. I'd like to jump in. We haven't really
touched on it, but when we think of our future
guests, things that we want to talk about, something
that is important to all of us and the entire
government are the relationships that we have
with our partners, whether it's what is referred
to as the Five Eye Alliances, which is Canada,
New Zealand, Australia, the United Kingdom, and
the U .S. And our allies well beyond that. And
they also have an important perspective because
they are a part of this national security game
with us. And their view is important. One of
the most important things I learned when I was
first overseas is when the U .S. invaded Iraq,
both Canada and France, and I was living in France,
were really opposed to the decision by the United
States. And I was particularly concerned that
it was going to impact. The liaison relationship
in the French, my French counterpart said, that's
politics. Don't worry about it. We have a mission
to do. We stay focused on that. Let the politicians
do what they want. So I think that we also it's
important for us to share with our audience that
our allies in countries around the world. also
are a part of our national security apparatus.
And we will, from time to time, be bringing them
in as well to share their perspective from as
they sit looking outside the United States into
it. Yeah, I think that's true. I think... Our
partners, our allies around the world are something
special that the United States has because those
people have learned that the United States plays
a special role in the world. And I think we here
all take that very seriously, and we're worried
about that being shredded. So I'm proud to be
part of this team, one of the hosts, and I think
we're going to interview some very interesting
people, and we're going to talk to them about
their experiences, and hopefully we can educate
the public a little bit and turn down the angriness
that we see on social media and other places.
Yeah, John, just piggybacking on that, you know,
in addition to looking externally around the
world, I want to look right in my neighborhood.
You know, I feel like one of my important responsibilities
when I was in government was really being a receiver
of public concern and public objection and impact
to the Department of Homeland Security's policies,
procedures, you know, activities. And I feel
like my role on this podcast is going to be in
part to tap into that voice of the people, to
tap into communities who may be targeted by what
the administration is doing. And again, showing
why that's not somebody over there, but it's
us. It is part of that impact on the social compact
that we all subscribe to as citizens. national
security, civil rights, and civil liberties.
And it's just an honor to do this with all of
you. And I want to echo that. We are so looking
forward to collaborating together. Some of us
knew each other before others didn't. And we're
really looking forward to having robust conversations
with our guests and with you. We do want to hear
from you. You are important to this conversation.
This is not about the four of us. sitting in
a room somewhere and talking to people that share
our experiences. We want everyone to be a part
of this. And I am honored to be sitting here
with three amazing guys. And I think we've got
a great number of podcasts coming up and we're
looking forward to the future with all of you.
One of those podcasts that Lauren just mentioned
will be my interview with our director of the
steady state, Steve Cash. I've known Steve for
more than 25 years, a distinguished attorney,
a distinguished civil servant. He actually worked
with me at the Central Intelligence Agency as
an operations officer and is going to explain
why more than 360 senior members. of the national
security organizations in the United States are
so concerned that they've joined the steady state.
So please join us in our future podcasts. Again,
this is John Seifer, Peter Mina, and Lauren Anderson,
and I'm Jim Lawler, the Steady State Sentinel,
still standing watch. Thank you for listening
to the Steady State Sentinel podcast. Don't miss
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