WEBVTT 00:00:11.019 --> 00:00:13.759 What is going on, friends? Welcome to My Weekly 00:00:13.759 --> 00:00:16.420 Mixtape, the show that takes the classic mixtape 00:00:16.420 --> 00:00:19.579 approach to building a modern playlist. I'm your 00:00:19.579 --> 00:00:22.559 host, Brian Colburn. Joining me tonight is author, 00:00:22.719 --> 00:00:25.699 journalist, and filmmaker Steven Blush, who's 00:00:25.699 --> 00:00:28.800 known for such books as American Hardcore, American 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:32.399 Hair Metal, When Rock Met Disco, and When Rock 00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:35.359 Met Reggae, among many others. He's here today 00:00:35.359 --> 00:00:37.939 to talk about his newest book, When Rock Met 00:00:37.939 --> 00:00:44.670 Hip Hop, I'm a huge fan of the fusion of rock 00:00:44.670 --> 00:00:47.770 and hip -hop genres across the decades. Stephen, 00:00:47.810 --> 00:00:49.670 it's a pleasure to have you on the show, my friend. 00:00:49.850 --> 00:00:52.549 I'm very glad to be here. And when rock met hip 00:00:52.549 --> 00:00:56.369 -hop was the labor of love, and I'm really happy 00:00:56.369 --> 00:00:58.950 to share it with your audience. Well, since you're 00:00:58.950 --> 00:01:00.829 a first -time guest, I'd like to start with the 00:01:00.829 --> 00:01:05.129 basics. What does the word mixtape mean to you? 00:01:05.549 --> 00:01:08.870 Well, I certainly had made a lot of mixtapes 00:01:08.870 --> 00:01:12.730 in my day. It's an expression. It's more than 00:01:12.730 --> 00:01:15.310 just a bunch of songs put together. It's your 00:01:15.310 --> 00:01:18.609 personality coming out. I used to make tapes 00:01:18.609 --> 00:01:22.150 and give it to people, give them as gifts, because 00:01:22.150 --> 00:01:27.609 that was my expression of music and art on a 00:01:27.609 --> 00:01:31.890 cassette tape at that time. But I think the mixtape 00:01:31.890 --> 00:01:37.969 is a lost art that should make a comeback and 00:01:37.969 --> 00:01:39.799 hopefully... you could have something to do with 00:01:39.799 --> 00:01:42.920 that. That's certainly the hope, my friend, you 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:45.079 know, we do it through playlists now, but my 00:01:45.079 --> 00:01:47.459 goal with the show is to try to bring back the 00:01:47.459 --> 00:01:51.439 thought process behind making a playlist, not 00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:53.359 just taking a bunch of songs, throwing them on 00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:55.700 there and hitting shuffle. Cause that's not quite 00:01:55.700 --> 00:01:59.620 the same sentiment. Now your new book, when rock 00:01:59.620 --> 00:02:02.260 meets hip hop follows, like I mentioned earlier, 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:05.280 when rock meets disco and when rock meets reggae, 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:09.050 was this always intended? to be the third entry 00:02:09.050 --> 00:02:12.870 for this trilogy of sorts? This is a trilogy. 00:02:13.150 --> 00:02:16.509 I didn't intend to write a trilogy. I wrote When 00:02:16.509 --> 00:02:21.189 Rock Met Disco. What I'm talking about is the 00:02:21.189 --> 00:02:24.629 cross -cultural crossovers of music. So when 00:02:24.629 --> 00:02:28.229 I'm talking about When Rock Met Disco, I'm not 00:02:28.229 --> 00:02:31.750 really talking about Do the Hustle or the Bee 00:02:31.750 --> 00:02:34.810 Gees and Saturday Night Fever. I'm really talking 00:02:34.810 --> 00:02:38.659 about... When rock bands got in there and started 00:02:38.659 --> 00:02:42.159 making disco records and it was very politically 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:44.240 incorrect at the time. There was a whole thing 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:48.840 called Disco Sucks and people weren't having 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:52.639 it. But the Rolling Stones, Miss You and Kiss, 00:02:52.900 --> 00:02:56.060 I Was Made For Loving You and Do You Think I'm 00:02:56.060 --> 00:03:00.580 Sexy by Rod Stewart and Queen and Blondie. They 00:03:00.580 --> 00:03:03.379 really brought a power to the music because these 00:03:03.379 --> 00:03:06.090 were like touring rock bands. that played 200 00:03:06.090 --> 00:03:11.210 days a year. So it was a really great change 00:03:11.210 --> 00:03:14.689 in the music. I've always been a huge reggae 00:03:14.689 --> 00:03:20.250 fan, and I don't know how I ended up doing what 00:03:20.250 --> 00:03:25.669 Rockmet, really what the impetus was. But I wasn't 00:03:25.669 --> 00:03:28.909 looking to do a series, I would say. But when 00:03:28.909 --> 00:03:31.530 I talk about when Rockmet reggae, I'm not really 00:03:31.530 --> 00:03:34.710 talking, while I do give a thumbnail sketch of, 00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:38.680 the music of Jamaica, what I'm really talking 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:41.539 about is when the clash started doing reggae 00:03:41.539 --> 00:03:44.419 and when the police started doing reggae and, 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:48.699 and when Bob Marley did a song called punky reggae 00:03:48.699 --> 00:03:51.060 party, where he's name checking all these bands. 00:03:51.780 --> 00:03:55.240 So I'm talking about the, again, it was the cultural 00:03:55.240 --> 00:03:59.819 crossover by the time I got to when rock met 00:03:59.819 --> 00:04:04.819 hip hop. Yes. was writing the third of the trilogy 00:04:04.819 --> 00:04:09.219 and it was something that i personally had experienced 00:04:09.219 --> 00:04:14.120 living in new york city for all those years i 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:18.000 was a dj at the clubs i worked at a lot of the 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:22.300 magazines usually like kind of fashion magazines 00:04:22.300 --> 00:04:26.439 like andy warhol's interview magazine things 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:30.819 like that and a few of them that are now deceased 00:04:30.819 --> 00:04:34.759 magazines like paper magazine and details magazine 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:37.420 you know if anyone knows their history with that 00:04:37.420 --> 00:04:42.259 stuff but because i was a dj i had entree into 00:04:42.259 --> 00:04:46.600 these fashion magazines like these edgy underground 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:51.100 fashion magazines right so they were kind of 00:04:51.100 --> 00:04:54.519 rock and roll basically without being rock and 00:04:54.519 --> 00:04:58.529 roll and because of that i got opportunities 00:04:58.529 --> 00:05:02.730 to just start writing. I really had very little 00:05:02.730 --> 00:05:06.029 experience with it. And I chose the interview 00:05:06.029 --> 00:05:09.850 format. Interview magazine's format was interviews. 00:05:10.589 --> 00:05:14.250 So for a very first interview I did was Harley 00:05:14.250 --> 00:05:17.750 Flanagan of the Cro -Mags. The second interview 00:05:17.750 --> 00:05:21.689 I think I did was Public Enemy. The fourth or 00:05:21.689 --> 00:05:25.500 fifth one was Anthrax. So I was just following 00:05:25.500 --> 00:05:29.399 what was going on with music. And Stephen, this 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:32.639 book isn't just tied to the origins of everything. 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:35.800 This kind of covers the entire spectrum of rock 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:39.860 meeting hip hop across the decades. The rock 00:05:39.860 --> 00:05:44.000 met hip hop story starts with Blondie with the 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:49.939 song Rapture. That's very early on 1981, 1984, 00:05:50.680 --> 00:05:57.720 85. is Run DMC with Rockbox and King of Rock. 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:04.480 1986 is The Beastie Boys with No Sleep Till Brooklyn 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:09.259 with Kerry King from Slayer playing on it. 1986 00:06:09.259 --> 00:06:13.480 is Rick Rubin, who worked with The Beastie Boys, 00:06:13.660 --> 00:06:18.740 hooks up the unforeseen. Nobody thought it would 00:06:18.740 --> 00:06:21.980 work when he brought Aerosmith. and run DMC together 00:06:21.980 --> 00:06:26.639 into the studio. And it ended up being probably 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:30.160 one of the most important records of the latter 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:34.680 for the end of the 20th century. I know that 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:39.160 VH1 called the video the most important video 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:43.639 of the era, end of the 20th century. And it certainly 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:48.000 was. I mean, the song is one thing, but the video 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:50.920 is... It's literally breaking down the walls. 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:53.279 That's what they're talking about. You know, 00:06:53.379 --> 00:06:56.240 it's like they tear down the walls of this and 00:06:56.240 --> 00:06:59.079 then they rock out, right? If you remember the 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:02.560 video, that's how it works. 100%. Yeah. And a 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:06.319 classic, right? Oh, undeniable. And then what 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:10.579 happens is there's a West Coast version of this, 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:16.319 but it's coming from the rock side. And that's 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:20.579 like rock bands rapping. And that was Red Hot 00:07:20.579 --> 00:07:24.480 Chili Peppers and Faith No More and House of 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:28.819 Pain, Cypress Hill, and all of that culminating 00:07:28.819 --> 00:07:32.259 in Rage Against the Machine, where you're literally 00:07:32.259 --> 00:07:36.699 playing rap on guitar. You're scratching on guitar, 00:07:37.060 --> 00:07:41.759 singers rapping, but the rhythm section's playing 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:46.439 rock. Right around that time is a hugely important 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:50.740 record, which is... the merger of Public Enemy, 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:54.920 who were trying to be the clash of hip -hop. 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:57.779 So they're coming with this really heavy intent, 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:03.339 and they get together with Anthrax, and they 00:08:03.339 --> 00:08:06.680 do the song Bring the Noise. And the history 00:08:06.680 --> 00:08:10.319 of that song is Scott Ian of Anthrax was a huge 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:15.300 fan of hip -hop. The whole band was basically 00:08:15.300 --> 00:08:18.040 because they grew up in the streets of the city. 00:08:18.490 --> 00:08:22.230 But Scott Ian in particular was a fan of hip 00:08:22.230 --> 00:08:24.850 -hop, and on the cover of one of these heavy 00:08:24.850 --> 00:08:26.810 metal magazines, he's wearing a Public Enemy 00:08:26.810 --> 00:08:32.549 shirt. And then Chuck D, in the lyrics on their 00:08:32.549 --> 00:08:38.309 second album, name drops Anthrax. Of interest, 00:08:38.610 --> 00:08:41.429 Public Enemy had done a song called She Watched 00:08:41.429 --> 00:08:45.029 Channel Zero. The song was basically rapped over 00:08:45.029 --> 00:08:48.799 a slowed -down version. of slayer angel of death 00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:53.879 which was a super important development if you 00:08:53.879 --> 00:08:58.960 think about that one so anthrax scott ian and 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:01.799 charlie benanti had developed a friendship with 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:07.600 chuck d of uh public enemy and like i said public 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:11.659 enemy had already recorded bring the noise and 00:09:11.659 --> 00:09:16.299 they started hearing from scott ian that they 00:09:16.299 --> 00:09:21.100 wanted to do a collaboration of a rock rap version 00:09:21.100 --> 00:09:26.240 of that bring the noise and it took public enemy 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:29.500 quite a while to come around on that because 00:09:29.500 --> 00:09:32.279 they were like well why are we going to re record 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:35.559 a song we already put out you know they didn't 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:38.740 really get where anthrax was coming from in terms 00:09:38.740 --> 00:09:43.429 of that so back and forth They tried to get the 00:09:43.429 --> 00:09:46.029 studio together. That didn't actually work. So 00:09:46.029 --> 00:09:49.570 this makes it different than Run DMC and Aerosmith, 00:09:49.610 --> 00:09:51.429 where they're actually in the studio together. 00:09:51.809 --> 00:09:55.509 What this ended up being was Public Enemy giving 00:09:55.509 --> 00:09:58.529 Scott Ian and Charlie Benanti the individual 00:09:58.529 --> 00:10:02.929 tracks and they cut it all up. Like you had to 00:10:02.929 --> 00:10:06.389 cut and paste back then because we weren't yet 00:10:06.389 --> 00:10:09.529 in the digital age. And then they brought the 00:10:09.529 --> 00:10:14.269 sledgehammer guitars over it. and you had a whole 00:10:14.269 --> 00:10:23.090 new song and that tour 1991 and 1992 of anthrax 00:10:23.090 --> 00:10:25.970 and public enemy was really a groundbreaker oh 00:10:25.970 --> 00:10:28.210 yeah it was really really changed the face of 00:10:28.210 --> 00:10:31.509 music and everyone was worried about like how 00:10:31.509 --> 00:10:34.750 the crowds would get along because both crowds 00:10:34.750 --> 00:10:38.710 were so extreme it was probably about 70 anthrax 00:10:38.710 --> 00:10:44.320 fans and 30 pe fans But everyone got along. Everyone 00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:47.080 was respectful. Everyone learned from each other. 00:10:47.860 --> 00:10:51.980 And it's a real changing point in the history 00:10:51.980 --> 00:10:55.259 of music. Right after that, going back to the 00:10:55.259 --> 00:11:00.559 West Coast, you have a soundtrack to a film called 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:03.419 Judgment Night. And the Judgment Night soundtrack 00:11:03.419 --> 00:11:09.860 is super important because it's all rock and 00:11:09.860 --> 00:11:14.639 rap. bands meeting together so it's house of 00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:20.779 pain with helmet it's um biohazard and onyx biohazard 00:11:20.779 --> 00:11:25.919 and onyx and it's cypress hill and pearl jam 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:31.200 and it's ice t's body count with slayer doing 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:37.299 a medley of songs by the exploited so you're 00:11:37.299 --> 00:11:40.539 really talking about the change in music happening 00:11:40.539 --> 00:11:46.179 there. And that opened doors for everyone. And 00:11:46.179 --> 00:11:53.019 this record was 1993. And then in 1994, Korn 00:11:53.019 --> 00:11:57.639 shows up on the scene. And you see the rise of 00:11:57.639 --> 00:12:01.580 what we now call new metal. A lot of people bag 00:12:01.580 --> 00:12:06.120 on Limp Bizkit, but they quickly became part 00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:10.419 of the Hollywood scene. And the DJ was DJ Lethal 00:12:10.419 --> 00:12:13.440 from House of Pain. House of Pain, correct. That 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:18.059 gave a legitimacy to their sound. And System 00:12:18.059 --> 00:12:23.259 of a Down have that hip -hop flavor. Linkin Park, 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:27.700 you gotta put as part of it. Although, they're 00:12:27.700 --> 00:12:31.960 the band I probably dislike the most of Nu Metal, 00:12:32.100 --> 00:12:37.259 personally. They've sold 60 million records, 00:12:37.580 --> 00:12:40.940 which is more than Led Zeppelin. So who am I 00:12:40.940 --> 00:12:46.940 to say? But that carries on till today. Limp 00:12:46.940 --> 00:12:50.179 Bizkit's still playing arenas with DJ Lethal 00:12:50.179 --> 00:12:53.940 and all those groups connect to Method Man and 00:12:53.940 --> 00:12:58.620 Dr. Dre and Exhibit and all that stuff. There 00:12:58.620 --> 00:13:01.820 was a record called Loud Rocks. Yes. Which was 00:13:01.820 --> 00:13:05.639 a really cool record where it's new metal groups 00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:09.740 performing hip -hop tracks and i do a whole chapter 00:13:09.740 --> 00:13:13.659 of that in the book and it's a super important 00:13:13.659 --> 00:13:17.659 time so when rock met hip -hop is not really 00:13:17.659 --> 00:13:21.480 a 10 -year story like most people think you know 00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:25.360 it's not like 80s to 90s it's really 80s till 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:30.080 today and i think the merger of rock and hip 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:33.220 -hop is here to stay Well, I want to remind people 00:13:33.220 --> 00:13:35.779 listening that you can hear a playlist of all 00:13:35.779 --> 00:13:37.799 the songs we're talking about tonight embedded 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:42.399 on the episode page over at myweeklymixtape .com. 00:13:43.700 --> 00:13:45.740 Now, I want to take a moment to start diving 00:13:45.740 --> 00:13:47.500 into some of those songs you talked about, because 00:13:47.500 --> 00:13:50.100 you gave a great history there in that last question. 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:52.600 So I want to go through a couple of those songs. 00:13:52.860 --> 00:13:55.600 You mentioned Run DMC and Aerosmith's Walk This 00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:59.639 Way. Now, even though Run DMC had already flirted 00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:02.659 with rock on tracks like Rock Box and King of 00:14:02.659 --> 00:14:05.740 Rock, the collaboration with Aerosmith is really 00:14:05.740 --> 00:14:08.559 what broke those barriers down. Literally, like 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:10.919 you had said in your statement, broke the walls 00:14:10.919 --> 00:14:14.980 down. Why do you feel this was the song that 00:14:14.980 --> 00:14:18.240 succeeded when others in the past didn't quite 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:22.340 break through to the mainstream? There's a few 00:14:22.340 --> 00:14:24.539 different points to that. I think a lot of it 00:14:24.539 --> 00:14:28.259 goes back to the legitimacy of Rick Rubin. I 00:14:28.259 --> 00:14:31.440 think you can't underplay that. I mean, if I'm 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:35.259 not mistaken, Rick Rubin is responsible for 10 00:14:35.259 --> 00:14:40.200 % of the bands in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:46.340 and 150 million of sales he's responsible for. 00:14:47.100 --> 00:14:51.659 And the other part of it was culturally, people 00:14:51.659 --> 00:14:56.860 were more ready for it. And to redo, not to come 00:14:56.860 --> 00:15:00.659 up with a new song, but to redo Walk This Way, 00:15:00.940 --> 00:15:04.840 which is a song that everybody loved, I think 00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:08.080 that's really the magic. That's your three points. 00:15:08.299 --> 00:15:12.019 You can't mess with that. So I would say that 00:15:12.019 --> 00:15:17.019 everything comes down to time and place. And 00:15:17.019 --> 00:15:24.889 Run DMC, Beastie Boys, they... kind of paved 00:15:24.889 --> 00:15:28.230 the way for this to happen but you know you make 00:15:28.230 --> 00:15:31.929 a good point you know run dmc did their songs 00:15:31.929 --> 00:15:35.169 like the first album and the second album the 00:15:35.169 --> 00:15:37.009 second album being the king of rock album the 00:15:37.009 --> 00:15:41.990 first album being with rockbox and it was a little 00:15:41.990 --> 00:15:46.250 bit too early it was almost like people took 00:15:46.250 --> 00:15:50.049 it as novelty but it wasn't novelty it was it 00:15:50.049 --> 00:15:53.129 was from the heart right so people had that wrong 00:15:53.129 --> 00:15:58.490 and aerosmith was ripe for a comeback they had 00:15:58.490 --> 00:16:04.610 really up you know between drugs and i mean the 00:16:04.610 --> 00:16:08.009 last record before that when they got back with 00:16:08.009 --> 00:16:11.289 joe perry was called done with mirrors which 00:16:11.289 --> 00:16:14.710 is a reference to cocaine you know they were 00:16:14.710 --> 00:16:20.129 still like drugged out and up uh this put them 00:16:20.129 --> 00:16:23.379 back in the game And people were ready for Aerosmith 00:16:23.379 --> 00:16:26.340 to come back. People were ready for what Run 00:16:26.340 --> 00:16:31.500 DMC were offering. And Walk This Way is just 00:16:31.500 --> 00:16:34.480 a classic. And Rick Rubin brought it all together. 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:39.059 So I think that's why. Let's stay on Rick Rubin 00:16:39.059 --> 00:16:41.799 for a second there, because he carried that same 00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:44.700 mindset with Run DMC and Aerosmith over to his 00:16:44.700 --> 00:16:48.419 work with the Beastie Boys. From early rock samples 00:16:48.419 --> 00:16:51.379 like ACDC's Back in Black on Beastie Boys' Rock 00:16:51.379 --> 00:16:55.100 Hard and Led Zeppelin's The Ocean on She's Crafty. 00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:58.559 But License to Ill, you had talked about it, 00:16:58.580 --> 00:17:02.080 Kerry King of Slayer, having him guest on No 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:06.119 Sleep Till Brooklyn. How important was that collaboration 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:11.880 in legitimizing hip hop music within the metal 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:16.170 community? Oh, it was everything. That's the 00:17:16.170 --> 00:17:18.849 whole thing. Because people didn't really get 00:17:18.849 --> 00:17:21.210 No Sleep Till Brooklyn. They couldn't really 00:17:21.210 --> 00:17:24.710 figure out what that song was about. So you have 00:17:24.710 --> 00:17:29.650 the situation where Rick Rubin is working in 00:17:29.650 --> 00:17:34.029 the studio in two different rooms. He's doing 00:17:34.029 --> 00:17:38.589 License to Ill and Rain in Blood by Slayer. Two 00:17:38.589 --> 00:17:43.119 records which are just so iconic. you know, so 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:46.420 important to each of its perspective genres. 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:50.640 And of course, the story of Kerry King, instead 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:54.200 of asking for points on the record, took $250. 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:00.119 I'm sure he's reconsidering that one years later. 00:18:00.180 --> 00:18:03.420 Yeah, he's like, he jokes about it, but you could 00:18:03.420 --> 00:18:06.539 tell it hurts. It's in the book as well, but 00:18:06.539 --> 00:18:10.029 I don't think. He understood the Beastie Boys 00:18:10.029 --> 00:18:13.329 or the Beastie Boys understood him. Like, nobody 00:18:13.329 --> 00:18:17.970 really got it except for Rick. So, again, it 00:18:17.970 --> 00:18:21.690 comes back to Rick Rubin. But, yeah, Kerry King 00:18:21.690 --> 00:18:24.710 gave it its legitimacy because he was from the 00:18:24.710 --> 00:18:28.230 most powerful band in the world who comes out 00:18:28.230 --> 00:18:32.549 with this record that's, like, scary. I mean, 00:18:32.569 --> 00:18:34.410 everybody remembers the first time they heard 00:18:34.410 --> 00:18:38.839 Rated Blood. You know, there's not one... second 00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:43.720 of a ballad or anything it's just full -on adrenaline 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:49.299 so yes the whole crossover to metal comes back 00:18:49.299 --> 00:18:52.539 to kerry king and then we were talking about 00:18:52.539 --> 00:18:54.700 anthrax earlier with their collaboration with 00:18:54.700 --> 00:18:57.819 public enemy on bring the noise but years prior 00:18:57.819 --> 00:19:03.079 anthrax already had dabbled in the rap hip -hop 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:06.240 crossover as their song i'm the man they originally 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:09.660 wrote to collaborate with the Beastie Boys, but 00:19:09.660 --> 00:19:13.000 that fell through. Do you feel like Anthrax had 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:16.099 their finger on the pulse of where things were 00:19:16.099 --> 00:19:19.220 headed long before they got there? Because I 00:19:19.220 --> 00:19:21.579 feel like I'm the Man is one of those songs that 00:19:21.579 --> 00:19:25.519 introduced hip hop to the metal scene almost 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:29.400 before Aerosmith and Run DMC introduced it to 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:32.980 the mainstream. Yeah, I think that's an excellent 00:19:32.980 --> 00:19:35.240 point. I mean, I'm the Man was a beast side, 00:19:35.380 --> 00:19:38.779 if I'm not mistaken. It was an EP. Yeah, right, 00:19:38.859 --> 00:19:41.539 right. Yeah, I'm the Man is a super important 00:19:41.539 --> 00:19:46.900 record. I think there was always a B -boy side 00:19:46.900 --> 00:19:51.779 to Scott Ian, I always felt. There's this Tencent 00:19:51.779 --> 00:19:55.859 word called zeitgeist, and it's just about a 00:19:55.859 --> 00:19:59.500 feeling that's in the air. Everyone was just 00:19:59.500 --> 00:20:02.039 feeling rock and hip -hop. Nobody articulated 00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:06.289 it. Nobody said, oh, I'm going to mix rock with 00:20:06.289 --> 00:20:09.170 hip hop. A lot of that has to do with you have 00:20:09.170 --> 00:20:12.769 to go back to talk about musicians. Musicians 00:20:12.769 --> 00:20:16.890 aren't racial or racist. They hear a sound and 00:20:16.890 --> 00:20:20.109 they put their own twist on it. The great thing 00:20:20.109 --> 00:20:23.890 about when rock met hip hop is that it articulates 00:20:23.890 --> 00:20:29.250 the musical values of you just are merging music. 00:20:29.289 --> 00:20:33.089 It's not really. black music or white music you 00:20:33.089 --> 00:20:34.970 know the musicians aren't thinking like that 00:20:34.970 --> 00:20:39.529 but there was this feeling in the air that you 00:20:39.529 --> 00:20:43.509 were wanted to bring music had been very segregated 00:20:43.509 --> 00:20:49.710 before that and people were really excited to 00:20:49.710 --> 00:20:56.529 merge these unique sounds and create something 00:20:56.529 --> 00:21:04.930 new because What the Beastie Boys or Anthrax 00:21:04.930 --> 00:21:11.410 or Aerosmith, it wasn't hip hop on its own. It 00:21:11.410 --> 00:21:14.509 was hip hop merged with their rock influences. 00:21:15.769 --> 00:21:19.230 So I would say that you have to look at it through 00:21:19.230 --> 00:21:21.789 that prism. I think that's really important. 00:21:23.009 --> 00:21:25.589 Now, one thing I want to bring up here is a lot 00:21:25.589 --> 00:21:27.869 of the songs we've talked about so far involve. 00:21:28.809 --> 00:21:32.490 the collaboration of artists. However, something 00:21:32.490 --> 00:21:37.509 that came from rock and hip hop merging was sampling, 00:21:37.650 --> 00:21:42.329 which at a point there was a very gray area around 00:21:42.329 --> 00:21:45.190 sampling. And I want to bring up Billy Squires, 00:21:45.250 --> 00:21:48.309 the big beat, because that song's been sampled 00:21:48.309 --> 00:21:53.339 over 300 times in hip hop. Yep. How did that 00:21:53.339 --> 00:21:57.779 track from his 1981 album, even before the stroke 00:21:57.779 --> 00:22:01.559 became the cultural phenomenon that it is, become 00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:06.779 such a foundational source for producers? Yeah, 00:22:06.819 --> 00:22:09.740 the stroke and the big beat. Those are basically 00:22:09.740 --> 00:22:15.140 foundational sounds. DMC from Run DMC says that 00:22:15.140 --> 00:22:19.440 Billy Squire and James Brown are the godfathers 00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:23.099 of hip hop. which is quite a statement because 00:22:23.099 --> 00:22:26.539 I don't really have an answer for why. I mean, 00:22:26.579 --> 00:22:32.400 to be fair, Billy Squire is a, I mean, he's a 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:35.359 good guitar player. He's got a couple killer 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:39.400 songs, but in terms of his whole resume, he's 00:22:39.400 --> 00:22:43.599 a fair to middling rock star. He's not Led Zeppelin. 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:48.019 You know, the one thing about his songs getting 00:22:48.019 --> 00:22:52.539 sampled. is that they sampled the drums, right? 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:56.599 They're not really sampling his vocals. You know, 00:22:56.619 --> 00:22:59.259 they're sampling the drum beat. Yeah, the only 00:22:59.259 --> 00:23:01.680 time I think they did his vocals was when Rick 00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:05.380 Rubin did Berserk with Eminem, and they brought 00:23:05.380 --> 00:23:08.019 in stuff from The Stroke. Yeah, right, right. 00:23:08.140 --> 00:23:10.920 But that's the only one I could think of. I mean, 00:23:10.940 --> 00:23:13.339 there could be other songs where they, if there's 00:23:13.339 --> 00:23:15.599 300 of them, I'm sure there's some songs that 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:19.920 use that part. Really what the part was, it was 00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:23.059 the breakbeat. Every DJ was looking for the breakbeat. 00:23:23.380 --> 00:23:29.099 And the breakbeat of the big beat or the stroke 00:23:29.099 --> 00:23:35.319 is unbelievably great. I mean, it's such an unbelievable 00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:39.519 sound. So I understand that. Bobby Trinard, when 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:43.200 I interviewed him, he's passed away since. But 00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:46.680 he just talked about the simplicity of the drum 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:50.490 set. the drum kit that he played. You know, he's 00:23:50.490 --> 00:23:53.730 not even playing cymbals. It's just, you know, 00:23:53.750 --> 00:23:58.349 a pounding beat. So I would say that that's the 00:23:58.349 --> 00:24:01.349 power of the beat. DJs are always looking for 00:24:01.349 --> 00:24:05.730 the breakbeat. Funky Drummer by James Brown and 00:24:05.730 --> 00:24:09.910 The Big Beat and the Stroke by Billy Squire are 00:24:09.910 --> 00:24:13.170 probably the best drum beats you could find. 00:24:14.059 --> 00:24:16.180 And just a reminder to those listening out there, 00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:18.160 if you want to hear a playlist with all the songs 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:20.700 we've discussed tonight, you could do so on the 00:24:20.700 --> 00:24:26.400 episode page over at myweeklymixtape .com. Now, 00:24:26.420 --> 00:24:28.779 earlier you talked about the Judgment Night soundtrack, 00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:32.480 which I consider to be one of the defining both 00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:35.619 rap rock moments as well as soundtracks of the 00:24:35.619 --> 00:24:39.000 90s. I've gone on other podcasts to just opine 00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:42.839 about this soundtrack in and of itself. Terrific. 00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:46.180 How do you feel projects like this and the Loud 00:24:46.180 --> 00:24:49.339 Rocks album that you talked about earlier expand 00:24:49.339 --> 00:24:53.119 both artists' audiences beyond their core fan 00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:55.880 base, especially in the world of, let's say, 00:24:55.960 --> 00:24:59.059 an Onyx and a Biohazard? Because Onyx, as far 00:24:59.059 --> 00:25:03.380 as I was concerned, is a hip hop group that brings 00:25:03.380 --> 00:25:07.259 rock tendencies to their sound. And Biohazard 00:25:07.259 --> 00:25:11.019 is a hardcore punk group that brings hip hop 00:25:11.019 --> 00:25:16.059 tendencies to their sound. So I think there's 00:25:16.059 --> 00:25:19.599 a magic of similarly to the mixtape, a compilation 00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:25.079 album is an expansive experience, a chance to 00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:28.539 hear so many different musicians doing their 00:25:28.539 --> 00:25:32.819 thing. So I think there's always been really 00:25:32.819 --> 00:25:36.849 influential. compilation albums i think compilation 00:25:36.849 --> 00:25:42.529 albums speak to a deeper vocabulary of the music 00:25:42.529 --> 00:25:46.009 i think that they have so many you know it's 00:25:46.009 --> 00:25:49.450 not just one group with a bunch of guests it's 00:25:49.450 --> 00:25:54.829 20 groups on an album or you know whatever the 00:25:54.829 --> 00:25:58.150 number is so there's a there's a lot going on 00:25:58.150 --> 00:26:01.269 there so i would say that that's probably the 00:26:01.269 --> 00:26:04.660 reason you have that is because It's just such 00:26:04.660 --> 00:26:07.440 a deeper musical experience than listening to 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:10.779 one group. Now, obviously, we're just scratching 00:26:10.779 --> 00:26:13.099 the surface of the book tonight, but it would 00:26:13.099 --> 00:26:15.259 be a disservice if we didn't also touch a little 00:26:15.259 --> 00:26:18.339 bit on Rage Against the Machine and the emergence 00:26:18.339 --> 00:26:20.460 of new metal as a genre, which you talked about 00:26:20.460 --> 00:26:25.599 earlier. Here we are in 2026 and bands like Limp 00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:27.700 Bizkit, where there was a time that they kind 00:26:27.700 --> 00:26:31.269 of disappeared from the map. are resurging again. 00:26:31.329 --> 00:26:33.910 They're playing stadiums, opening for Metallica, 00:26:33.970 --> 00:26:37.210 playing arenas on their own. Looking into your 00:26:37.210 --> 00:26:40.569 crystal ball, where do you see those artists 00:26:40.569 --> 00:26:44.329 and the nu metal movement as the rap rock timeline 00:26:44.329 --> 00:26:49.430 continues to move forward? Great question. I 00:26:49.430 --> 00:26:51.630 think if I knew that answer, I'd be a zillionaire. 00:26:54.509 --> 00:26:58.539 But I can't really point to anybody. You know, 00:26:58.539 --> 00:27:02.819 if the big four of heavy metal is Metallica, 00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:06.720 Megadeth, Slayer, and Anthrax, then the big four 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:12.019 of new metal would be Korn, Limp Bizkit, System 00:27:12.019 --> 00:27:17.539 of a Down, and Linkin Park. And I think what 00:27:17.539 --> 00:27:21.200 we're seeing now is, I mean, I guess Avenged 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:23.720 Sevenfold, would they be considered part of that? 00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:25.809 I don't know. I never really considered them 00:27:25.809 --> 00:27:27.910 new metal. I think they leaned more punk and 00:27:27.910 --> 00:27:29.829 then kind of into the hard rock spectrum. Yeah, 00:27:29.829 --> 00:27:32.049 that's what I'm saying. That's kind of my point. 00:27:32.450 --> 00:27:35.250 I think what we've seen, well, we've seen this 00:27:35.250 --> 00:27:39.289 in all forms of music. Music is so much happened 00:27:39.289 --> 00:27:43.529 in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s that the world 00:27:43.529 --> 00:27:47.730 is now just catching up to it. So what you're 00:27:47.730 --> 00:27:51.990 seeing is the development of the individual bands 00:27:51.990 --> 00:27:56.250 of the individual genres. Today, expanding their 00:27:56.250 --> 00:28:00.609 sound and becoming so much better at what they 00:28:00.609 --> 00:28:04.809 do. So I would actually say that really what 00:28:04.809 --> 00:28:09.690 you're seeing is, you know, Korn. I mean, I saw 00:28:09.690 --> 00:28:11.950 Korn very early because they used to open for 00:28:11.950 --> 00:28:14.890 Faith No More. I'd probably include the Deftones 00:28:14.890 --> 00:28:16.910 with that, I guess. Right. Would you include 00:28:16.910 --> 00:28:20.630 the Deftones? Right. So maybe that's they're 00:28:20.630 --> 00:28:24.119 really not in the book and I don't have. answer 00:28:24.119 --> 00:28:27.960 for why they're not so kind of my apologies to 00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:31.200 the deftones for that because they've really 00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:34.420 developed their sound corn have really developed 00:28:34.420 --> 00:28:37.359 their sound i mean corn used to tour with sugar 00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:39.819 ray back in the day when sugar race first album 00:28:39.819 --> 00:28:44.099 lemonade and brownies was a rap rock hybrid album 00:28:44.099 --> 00:28:47.299 and then when fly took off they kind of pivoted 00:28:47.299 --> 00:28:50.630 to more pop sounds but People don't realize that 00:28:50.630 --> 00:28:55.490 Sugar Ray started as a rap rock outfit. Oh, sure 00:28:55.490 --> 00:28:58.250 they did. And I can't remember the name of their 00:28:58.250 --> 00:29:00.730 DJ, but he went on to work with a lot of these 00:29:00.730 --> 00:29:04.250 groups too. I hung out with Sugar Ray during 00:29:04.250 --> 00:29:08.210 the period you're talking about before Fly. But 00:29:08.210 --> 00:29:12.990 the development of Deftones and the development 00:29:12.990 --> 00:29:17.299 of Korn and the development of Limp Bizkit. I 00:29:17.299 --> 00:29:21.680 mean, DJ Lethal from House of Pain? I mean, come 00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:24.380 on. That just takes it to a whole nother level. 00:29:24.519 --> 00:29:27.680 And you could tell he's driving that bus right 00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:31.079 now. And it's kind of hard to even talk about 00:29:31.079 --> 00:29:34.880 Linkin Park because they're just coming out with 00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:38.799 a new singer and all that kind of stuff. So it's 00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:42.220 a little too early to judge them. But I think 00:29:42.220 --> 00:29:45.740 those are the points that matter. That's the 00:29:45.740 --> 00:29:49.099 future too, because I don't see any too many 00:29:49.099 --> 00:29:51.799 new bands coming from that world, but they're 00:29:51.799 --> 00:29:54.900 all getting better and they're all getting more 00:29:54.900 --> 00:30:00.079 interesting. And that's okay by me. I have a 00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:02.900 prediction that the cycle of the early two thousands 00:30:02.900 --> 00:30:06.920 new metal scene is doing this cyclical turn where 00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:09.339 a lot of younger bands are going to start looking 00:30:09.339 --> 00:30:13.460 to that as motivation for new sounds. As I've 00:30:13.460 --> 00:30:15.960 been hearing a lot of, younger up and coming 00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:20.220 bands that are starting to touch on the new metal 00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:23.059 aspects of the early two thousands in their music 00:30:23.059 --> 00:30:26.740 now, but taking it to a new place. Whereas the 00:30:26.740 --> 00:30:29.480 Lincoln parks and the system of a downs are your 00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:33.339 almost legacy acts. And there's up and coming 00:30:33.339 --> 00:30:36.039 bands that are now taking that style into new 00:30:36.039 --> 00:30:39.920 areas where it's never been before. So who are 00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:42.140 these groups though? I mean, I know intellectually 00:30:42.140 --> 00:30:45.130 who they are, but. I don't actually know who, 00:30:45.190 --> 00:30:47.809 I couldn't name a group. There's a group out 00:30:47.809 --> 00:30:51.509 now called Aurora Wave that's taking reggae and 00:30:51.509 --> 00:30:54.210 metal and mixing it together, which I find very 00:30:54.210 --> 00:30:57.250 interesting. Nice. Because that's going back 00:30:57.250 --> 00:30:59.849 to one of your other books, but within reggae, 00:30:59.890 --> 00:31:02.210 there's always that element of delivery of hip 00:31:02.210 --> 00:31:04.390 hop. When you listen to groups like the Dirty 00:31:04.390 --> 00:31:07.069 Heads that take reggae and hip hop and kind of 00:31:07.069 --> 00:31:09.930 merge them together, Aurora Wave is taking metal 00:31:09.930 --> 00:31:13.069 and reggae and hip hop. and kind of merging it 00:31:13.069 --> 00:31:15.210 into a sound. And that's one of the examples 00:31:15.210 --> 00:31:18.450 I have. Okay, that's good. I'll check them out. 00:31:18.809 --> 00:31:21.529 But yeah, I'm looking for those groups for sure. 00:31:22.150 --> 00:31:24.589 And I'd like to know that. But yeah, I think 00:31:24.589 --> 00:31:27.710 these legacy acts, which is an excellent way 00:31:27.710 --> 00:31:30.309 to put it, are paving the way for a new generation 00:31:30.309 --> 00:31:34.650 of this. Absolutely. Steven, this has been an 00:31:34.650 --> 00:31:37.359 extremely insightful conversation. Where can 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:39.940 people learn more and pick up a copy of When 00:31:39.940 --> 00:31:41.960 Rock Meets Hip Hop as well as connect with you? 00:31:42.299 --> 00:31:47.059 Sure. I have an Instagram page, The Stephen Blush. 00:31:47.619 --> 00:31:52.119 I have stephenblush .com. You could certainly 00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:54.960 email me there. I welcome all communications. 00:31:56.119 --> 00:32:00.160 The When Rock Met Hip Hop book just came out. 00:32:00.339 --> 00:32:03.400 I'd love for you to get it. If I see you, I will 00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:08.240 sign it for you wherever I am. It is available 00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:11.619 at every independent record store. Although I 00:32:11.619 --> 00:32:14.779 would honestly, I know this is sacrilege, but 00:32:14.779 --> 00:32:19.259 fastest and cheapest is through amazon .com. 00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:22.339 It's less money for me, but I'd rather you have 00:32:22.339 --> 00:32:25.319 the book. Well, Steven, I appreciate you taking 00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:27.180 the time to speak with me tonight on my weekly 00:32:27.180 --> 00:32:30.660 mixtape. Okay. It was really a pleasure. I appreciate 00:32:30.660 --> 00:32:33.109 Brian. And to those listening, remember, you 00:32:33.109 --> 00:32:35.529 can hear all the songs we've discussed in tonight's 00:32:35.529 --> 00:32:38.109 episode, as well as check out the entire back 00:32:38.109 --> 00:32:42.569 catalog of the show over at myweeklymixtape .com. 00:32:42.769 --> 00:32:44.809 If you'd like to connect with the show on social 00:32:44.809 --> 00:32:48.609 media, you could do so on all the haunts at myweeklymixtape. 00:32:48.670 --> 00:32:50.670 If you'd like to become a part of the mixtaper 00:32:50.670 --> 00:32:54.009 community, you could do so over at patreon .com 00:32:54.009 --> 00:32:57.309 forward slash myweeklymixtape. It's free to join, 00:32:57.369 --> 00:32:59.750 and there are several tiers available if you'd 00:32:59.750 --> 00:33:02.000 like to support the show. a little bit extra. 00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:04.859 If you're listening to the show on Spotify, Apple 00:33:04.859 --> 00:33:07.960 Music, or on YouTube, please leave a five -star 00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:11.240 review, give a thumbs up, drop a comment, do 00:33:11.240 --> 00:33:14.119 all the things, and help me reach other music 00:33:14.119 --> 00:33:17.519 fans with the show. Once again, my name is Brian 00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:20.079 Colburn. This has been my weekly mixtape, and 00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:22.339 until next time, enjoy the tunes.