What is going on, friends? Welcome to My Weekly
Mixtape, the show that takes the classic mixtape
approach to building a modern playlist. I'm your
host, Brian Colburn. Joining me tonight is author,
journalist, and filmmaker Steven Blush, who's
known for such books as American Hardcore, American
Hair Metal, When Rock Met Disco, and When Rock
Met Reggae, among many others. He's here today
to talk about his newest book, When Rock Met
Hip Hop, I'm a huge fan of the fusion of rock
and hip -hop genres across the decades. Stephen,
it's a pleasure to have you on the show, my friend.
I'm very glad to be here. And when rock met hip
-hop was the labor of love, and I'm really happy
to share it with your audience. Well, since you're
a first -time guest, I'd like to start with the
basics. What does the word mixtape mean to you?
Well, I certainly had made a lot of mixtapes
in my day. It's an expression. It's more than
just a bunch of songs put together. It's your
personality coming out. I used to make tapes
and give it to people, give them as gifts, because
that was my expression of music and art on a
cassette tape at that time. But I think the mixtape
is a lost art that should make a comeback and
hopefully... you could have something to do with
that. That's certainly the hope, my friend, you
know, we do it through playlists now, but my
goal with the show is to try to bring back the
thought process behind making a playlist, not
just taking a bunch of songs, throwing them on
there and hitting shuffle. Cause that's not quite
the same sentiment. Now your new book, when rock
meets hip hop follows, like I mentioned earlier,
when rock meets disco and when rock meets reggae,
was this always intended? to be the third entry
for this trilogy of sorts? This is a trilogy.
I didn't intend to write a trilogy. I wrote When
Rock Met Disco. What I'm talking about is the
cross -cultural crossovers of music. So when
I'm talking about When Rock Met Disco, I'm not
really talking about Do the Hustle or the Bee
Gees and Saturday Night Fever. I'm really talking
about... When rock bands got in there and started
making disco records and it was very politically
incorrect at the time. There was a whole thing
called Disco Sucks and people weren't having
it. But the Rolling Stones, Miss You and Kiss,
I Was Made For Loving You and Do You Think I'm
Sexy by Rod Stewart and Queen and Blondie. They
really brought a power to the music because these
were like touring rock bands. that played 200
days a year. So it was a really great change
in the music. I've always been a huge reggae
fan, and I don't know how I ended up doing what
Rockmet, really what the impetus was. But I wasn't
looking to do a series, I would say. But when
I talk about when Rockmet reggae, I'm not really
talking, while I do give a thumbnail sketch of,
the music of Jamaica, what I'm really talking
about is when the clash started doing reggae
and when the police started doing reggae and,
and when Bob Marley did a song called punky reggae
party, where he's name checking all these bands.
So I'm talking about the, again, it was the cultural
crossover by the time I got to when rock met
hip hop. Yes. was writing the third of the trilogy
and it was something that i personally had experienced
living in new york city for all those years i
was a dj at the clubs i worked at a lot of the
magazines usually like kind of fashion magazines
like andy warhol's interview magazine things
like that and a few of them that are now deceased
magazines like paper magazine and details magazine
you know if anyone knows their history with that
stuff but because i was a dj i had entree into
these fashion magazines like these edgy underground
fashion magazines right so they were kind of
rock and roll basically without being rock and
roll and because of that i got opportunities
to just start writing. I really had very little
experience with it. And I chose the interview
format. Interview magazine's format was interviews.
So for a very first interview I did was Harley
Flanagan of the Cro -Mags. The second interview
I think I did was Public Enemy. The fourth or
fifth one was Anthrax. So I was just following
what was going on with music. And Stephen, this
book isn't just tied to the origins of everything.
This kind of covers the entire spectrum of rock
meeting hip hop across the decades. The rock
met hip hop story starts with Blondie with the
song Rapture. That's very early on 1981, 1984,
85. is Run DMC with Rockbox and King of Rock.
1986 is The Beastie Boys with No Sleep Till Brooklyn
with Kerry King from Slayer playing on it. 1986
is Rick Rubin, who worked with The Beastie Boys,
hooks up the unforeseen. Nobody thought it would
work when he brought Aerosmith. and run DMC together
into the studio. And it ended up being probably
one of the most important records of the latter
for the end of the 20th century. I know that
VH1 called the video the most important video
of the era, end of the 20th century. And it certainly
was. I mean, the song is one thing, but the video
is... It's literally breaking down the walls.
That's what they're talking about. You know,
it's like they tear down the walls of this and
then they rock out, right? If you remember the
video, that's how it works. 100%. Yeah. And a
classic, right? Oh, undeniable. And then what
happens is there's a West Coast version of this,
but it's coming from the rock side. And that's
like rock bands rapping. And that was Red Hot
Chili Peppers and Faith No More and House of
Pain, Cypress Hill, and all of that culminating
in Rage Against the Machine, where you're literally
playing rap on guitar. You're scratching on guitar,
singers rapping, but the rhythm section's playing
rock. Right around that time is a hugely important
record, which is... the merger of Public Enemy,
who were trying to be the clash of hip -hop.
So they're coming with this really heavy intent,
and they get together with Anthrax, and they
do the song Bring the Noise. And the history
of that song is Scott Ian of Anthrax was a huge
fan of hip -hop. The whole band was basically
because they grew up in the streets of the city.
But Scott Ian in particular was a fan of hip
-hop, and on the cover of one of these heavy
metal magazines, he's wearing a Public Enemy
shirt. And then Chuck D, in the lyrics on their
second album, name drops Anthrax. Of interest,
Public Enemy had done a song called She Watched
Channel Zero. The song was basically rapped over
a slowed -down version. of slayer angel of death
which was a super important development if you
think about that one so anthrax scott ian and
charlie benanti had developed a friendship with
chuck d of uh public enemy and like i said public
enemy had already recorded bring the noise and
they started hearing from scott ian that they
wanted to do a collaboration of a rock rap version
of that bring the noise and it took public enemy
quite a while to come around on that because
they were like well why are we going to re record
a song we already put out you know they didn't
really get where anthrax was coming from in terms
of that so back and forth They tried to get the
studio together. That didn't actually work. So
this makes it different than Run DMC and Aerosmith,
where they're actually in the studio together.
What this ended up being was Public Enemy giving
Scott Ian and Charlie Benanti the individual
tracks and they cut it all up. Like you had to
cut and paste back then because we weren't yet
in the digital age. And then they brought the
sledgehammer guitars over it. and you had a whole
new song and that tour 1991 and 1992 of anthrax
and public enemy was really a groundbreaker oh
yeah it was really really changed the face of
music and everyone was worried about like how
the crowds would get along because both crowds
were so extreme it was probably about 70 anthrax
fans and 30 pe fans But everyone got along. Everyone
was respectful. Everyone learned from each other.
And it's a real changing point in the history
of music. Right after that, going back to the
West Coast, you have a soundtrack to a film called
Judgment Night. And the Judgment Night soundtrack
is super important because it's all rock and
rap. bands meeting together so it's house of
pain with helmet it's um biohazard and onyx biohazard
and onyx and it's cypress hill and pearl jam
and it's ice t's body count with slayer doing
a medley of songs by the exploited so you're
really talking about the change in music happening
there. And that opened doors for everyone. And
this record was 1993. And then in 1994, Korn
shows up on the scene. And you see the rise of
what we now call new metal. A lot of people bag
on Limp Bizkit, but they quickly became part
of the Hollywood scene. And the DJ was DJ Lethal
from House of Pain. House of Pain, correct. That
gave a legitimacy to their sound. And System
of a Down have that hip -hop flavor. Linkin Park,
you gotta put as part of it. Although, they're
the band I probably dislike the most of Nu Metal,
personally. They've sold 60 million records,
which is more than Led Zeppelin. So who am I
to say? But that carries on till today. Limp
Bizkit's still playing arenas with DJ Lethal
and all those groups connect to Method Man and
Dr. Dre and Exhibit and all that stuff. There
was a record called Loud Rocks. Yes. Which was
a really cool record where it's new metal groups
performing hip -hop tracks and i do a whole chapter
of that in the book and it's a super important
time so when rock met hip -hop is not really
a 10 -year story like most people think you know
it's not like 80s to 90s it's really 80s till
today and i think the merger of rock and hip
-hop is here to stay Well, I want to remind people
listening that you can hear a playlist of all
the songs we're talking about tonight embedded
on the episode page over at myweeklymixtape .com.
Now, I want to take a moment to start diving
into some of those songs you talked about, because
you gave a great history there in that last question.
So I want to go through a couple of those songs.
You mentioned Run DMC and Aerosmith's Walk This
Way. Now, even though Run DMC had already flirted
with rock on tracks like Rock Box and King of
Rock, the collaboration with Aerosmith is really
what broke those barriers down. Literally, like
you had said in your statement, broke the walls
down. Why do you feel this was the song that
succeeded when others in the past didn't quite
break through to the mainstream? There's a few
different points to that. I think a lot of it
goes back to the legitimacy of Rick Rubin. I
think you can't underplay that. I mean, if I'm
not mistaken, Rick Rubin is responsible for 10
% of the bands in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
and 150 million of sales he's responsible for.
And the other part of it was culturally, people
were more ready for it. And to redo, not to come
up with a new song, but to redo Walk This Way,
which is a song that everybody loved, I think
that's really the magic. That's your three points.
You can't mess with that. So I would say that
everything comes down to time and place. And
Run DMC, Beastie Boys, they... kind of paved
the way for this to happen but you know you make
a good point you know run dmc did their songs
like the first album and the second album the
second album being the king of rock album the
first album being with rockbox and it was a little
bit too early it was almost like people took
it as novelty but it wasn't novelty it was it
was from the heart right so people had that wrong
and aerosmith was ripe for a comeback they had
really up you know between drugs and i mean the
last record before that when they got back with
joe perry was called done with mirrors which
is a reference to cocaine you know they were
still like drugged out and up uh this put them
back in the game And people were ready for Aerosmith
to come back. People were ready for what Run
DMC were offering. And Walk This Way is just
a classic. And Rick Rubin brought it all together.
So I think that's why. Let's stay on Rick Rubin
for a second there, because he carried that same
mindset with Run DMC and Aerosmith over to his
work with the Beastie Boys. From early rock samples
like ACDC's Back in Black on Beastie Boys' Rock
Hard and Led Zeppelin's The Ocean on She's Crafty.
But License to Ill, you had talked about it,
Kerry King of Slayer, having him guest on No
Sleep Till Brooklyn. How important was that collaboration
in legitimizing hip hop music within the metal
community? Oh, it was everything. That's the
whole thing. Because people didn't really get
No Sleep Till Brooklyn. They couldn't really
figure out what that song was about. So you have
the situation where Rick Rubin is working in
the studio in two different rooms. He's doing
License to Ill and Rain in Blood by Slayer. Two
records which are just so iconic. you know, so
important to each of its perspective genres.
And of course, the story of Kerry King, instead
of asking for points on the record, took $250.
I'm sure he's reconsidering that one years later.
Yeah, he's like, he jokes about it, but you could
tell it hurts. It's in the book as well, but
I don't think. He understood the Beastie Boys
or the Beastie Boys understood him. Like, nobody
really got it except for Rick. So, again, it
comes back to Rick Rubin. But, yeah, Kerry King
gave it its legitimacy because he was from the
most powerful band in the world who comes out
with this record that's, like, scary. I mean,
everybody remembers the first time they heard
Rated Blood. You know, there's not one... second
of a ballad or anything it's just full -on adrenaline
so yes the whole crossover to metal comes back
to kerry king and then we were talking about
anthrax earlier with their collaboration with
public enemy on bring the noise but years prior
anthrax already had dabbled in the rap hip -hop
crossover as their song i'm the man they originally
wrote to collaborate with the Beastie Boys, but
that fell through. Do you feel like Anthrax had
their finger on the pulse of where things were
headed long before they got there? Because I
feel like I'm the Man is one of those songs that
introduced hip hop to the metal scene almost
before Aerosmith and Run DMC introduced it to
the mainstream. Yeah, I think that's an excellent
point. I mean, I'm the Man was a beast side,
if I'm not mistaken. It was an EP. Yeah, right,
right. Yeah, I'm the Man is a super important
record. I think there was always a B -boy side
to Scott Ian, I always felt. There's this Tencent
word called zeitgeist, and it's just about a
feeling that's in the air. Everyone was just
feeling rock and hip -hop. Nobody articulated
it. Nobody said, oh, I'm going to mix rock with
hip hop. A lot of that has to do with you have
to go back to talk about musicians. Musicians
aren't racial or racist. They hear a sound and
they put their own twist on it. The great thing
about when rock met hip hop is that it articulates
the musical values of you just are merging music.
It's not really. black music or white music you
know the musicians aren't thinking like that
but there was this feeling in the air that you
were wanted to bring music had been very segregated
before that and people were really excited to
merge these unique sounds and create something
new because What the Beastie Boys or Anthrax
or Aerosmith, it wasn't hip hop on its own. It
was hip hop merged with their rock influences.
So I would say that you have to look at it through
that prism. I think that's really important.
Now, one thing I want to bring up here is a lot
of the songs we've talked about so far involve.
the collaboration of artists. However, something
that came from rock and hip hop merging was sampling,
which at a point there was a very gray area around
sampling. And I want to bring up Billy Squires,
the big beat, because that song's been sampled
over 300 times in hip hop. Yep. How did that
track from his 1981 album, even before the stroke
became the cultural phenomenon that it is, become
such a foundational source for producers? Yeah,
the stroke and the big beat. Those are basically
foundational sounds. DMC from Run DMC says that
Billy Squire and James Brown are the godfathers
of hip hop. which is quite a statement because
I don't really have an answer for why. I mean,
to be fair, Billy Squire is a, I mean, he's a
good guitar player. He's got a couple killer
songs, but in terms of his whole resume, he's
a fair to middling rock star. He's not Led Zeppelin.
You know, the one thing about his songs getting
sampled. is that they sampled the drums, right?
They're not really sampling his vocals. You know,
they're sampling the drum beat. Yeah, the only
time I think they did his vocals was when Rick
Rubin did Berserk with Eminem, and they brought
in stuff from The Stroke. Yeah, right, right.
But that's the only one I could think of. I mean,
there could be other songs where they, if there's
300 of them, I'm sure there's some songs that
use that part. Really what the part was, it was
the breakbeat. Every DJ was looking for the breakbeat.
And the breakbeat of the big beat or the stroke
is unbelievably great. I mean, it's such an unbelievable
sound. So I understand that. Bobby Trinard, when
I interviewed him, he's passed away since. But
he just talked about the simplicity of the drum
set. the drum kit that he played. You know, he's
not even playing cymbals. It's just, you know,
a pounding beat. So I would say that that's the
power of the beat. DJs are always looking for
the breakbeat. Funky Drummer by James Brown and
The Big Beat and the Stroke by Billy Squire are
probably the best drum beats you could find.
And just a reminder to those listening out there,
if you want to hear a playlist with all the songs
we've discussed tonight, you could do so on the
episode page over at myweeklymixtape .com. Now,
earlier you talked about the Judgment Night soundtrack,
which I consider to be one of the defining both
rap rock moments as well as soundtracks of the
90s. I've gone on other podcasts to just opine
about this soundtrack in and of itself. Terrific.
How do you feel projects like this and the Loud
Rocks album that you talked about earlier expand
both artists' audiences beyond their core fan
base, especially in the world of, let's say,
an Onyx and a Biohazard? Because Onyx, as far
as I was concerned, is a hip hop group that brings
rock tendencies to their sound. And Biohazard
is a hardcore punk group that brings hip hop
tendencies to their sound. So I think there's
a magic of similarly to the mixtape, a compilation
album is an expansive experience, a chance to
hear so many different musicians doing their
thing. So I think there's always been really
influential. compilation albums i think compilation
albums speak to a deeper vocabulary of the music
i think that they have so many you know it's
not just one group with a bunch of guests it's
20 groups on an album or you know whatever the
number is so there's a there's a lot going on
there so i would say that that's probably the
reason you have that is because It's just such
a deeper musical experience than listening to
one group. Now, obviously, we're just scratching
the surface of the book tonight, but it would
be a disservice if we didn't also touch a little
bit on Rage Against the Machine and the emergence
of new metal as a genre, which you talked about
earlier. Here we are in 2026 and bands like Limp
Bizkit, where there was a time that they kind
of disappeared from the map. are resurging again.
They're playing stadiums, opening for Metallica,
playing arenas on their own. Looking into your
crystal ball, where do you see those artists
and the nu metal movement as the rap rock timeline
continues to move forward? Great question. I
think if I knew that answer, I'd be a zillionaire.
But I can't really point to anybody. You know,
if the big four of heavy metal is Metallica,
Megadeth, Slayer, and Anthrax, then the big four
of new metal would be Korn, Limp Bizkit, System
of a Down, and Linkin Park. And I think what
we're seeing now is, I mean, I guess Avenged
Sevenfold, would they be considered part of that?
I don't know. I never really considered them
new metal. I think they leaned more punk and
then kind of into the hard rock spectrum. Yeah,
that's what I'm saying. That's kind of my point.
I think what we've seen, well, we've seen this
in all forms of music. Music is so much happened
in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s that the world
is now just catching up to it. So what you're
seeing is the development of the individual bands
of the individual genres. Today, expanding their
sound and becoming so much better at what they
do. So I would actually say that really what
you're seeing is, you know, Korn. I mean, I saw
Korn very early because they used to open for
Faith No More. I'd probably include the Deftones
with that, I guess. Right. Would you include
the Deftones? Right. So maybe that's they're
really not in the book and I don't have. answer
for why they're not so kind of my apologies to
the deftones for that because they've really
developed their sound corn have really developed
their sound i mean corn used to tour with sugar
ray back in the day when sugar race first album
lemonade and brownies was a rap rock hybrid album
and then when fly took off they kind of pivoted
to more pop sounds but People don't realize that
Sugar Ray started as a rap rock outfit. Oh, sure
they did. And I can't remember the name of their
DJ, but he went on to work with a lot of these
groups too. I hung out with Sugar Ray during
the period you're talking about before Fly. But
the development of Deftones and the development
of Korn and the development of Limp Bizkit. I
mean, DJ Lethal from House of Pain? I mean, come
on. That just takes it to a whole nother level.
And you could tell he's driving that bus right
now. And it's kind of hard to even talk about
Linkin Park because they're just coming out with
a new singer and all that kind of stuff. So it's
a little too early to judge them. But I think
those are the points that matter. That's the
future too, because I don't see any too many
new bands coming from that world, but they're
all getting better and they're all getting more
interesting. And that's okay by me. I have a
prediction that the cycle of the early two thousands
new metal scene is doing this cyclical turn where
a lot of younger bands are going to start looking
to that as motivation for new sounds. As I've
been hearing a lot of, younger up and coming
bands that are starting to touch on the new metal
aspects of the early two thousands in their music
now, but taking it to a new place. Whereas the
Lincoln parks and the system of a downs are your
almost legacy acts. And there's up and coming
bands that are now taking that style into new
areas where it's never been before. So who are
these groups though? I mean, I know intellectually
who they are, but. I don't actually know who,
I couldn't name a group. There's a group out
now called Aurora Wave that's taking reggae and
metal and mixing it together, which I find very
interesting. Nice. Because that's going back
to one of your other books, but within reggae,
there's always that element of delivery of hip
hop. When you listen to groups like the Dirty
Heads that take reggae and hip hop and kind of
merge them together, Aurora Wave is taking metal
and reggae and hip hop. and kind of merging it
into a sound. And that's one of the examples
I have. Okay, that's good. I'll check them out.
But yeah, I'm looking for those groups for sure.
And I'd like to know that. But yeah, I think
these legacy acts, which is an excellent way
to put it, are paving the way for a new generation
of this. Absolutely. Steven, this has been an
extremely insightful conversation. Where can
people learn more and pick up a copy of When
Rock Meets Hip Hop as well as connect with you?
Sure. I have an Instagram page, The Stephen Blush.
I have stephenblush .com. You could certainly
email me there. I welcome all communications.
The When Rock Met Hip Hop book just came out.
I'd love for you to get it. If I see you, I will
sign it for you wherever I am. It is available
at every independent record store. Although I
would honestly, I know this is sacrilege, but
fastest and cheapest is through amazon .com.
It's less money for me, but I'd rather you have
the book. Well, Steven, I appreciate you taking
the time to speak with me tonight on my weekly
mixtape. Okay. It was really a pleasure. I appreciate
Brian. And to those listening, remember, you
can hear all the songs we've discussed in tonight's
episode, as well as check out the entire back
catalog of the show over at myweeklymixtape .com.
If you'd like to connect with the show on social
media, you could do so on all the haunts at myweeklymixtape.
If you'd like to become a part of the mixtaper
community, you could do so over at patreon .com
forward slash myweeklymixtape. It's free to join,
and there are several tiers available if you'd
like to support the show. a little bit extra.
If you're listening to the show on Spotify, Apple
Music, or on YouTube, please leave a five -star
review, give a thumbs up, drop a comment, do
all the things, and help me reach other music
fans with the show. Once again, my name is Brian
Colburn. This has been my weekly mixtape, and
until next time, enjoy the tunes.