WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.820 Hey, it's Matt Scannell from Vertical Horizon, 00:00:02.020 --> 00:00:04.219 and you're listening to My Weekly Mixtape with 00:00:04.219 --> 00:00:18.879 Brian Colburn, and it's awesome. Welcome to My 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:21.559 Weekly Mixtape, a podcast that takes the classic 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:24.739 mixtape approach to building a modern playlist. 00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:27.710 I'm your host, Brian Colburn. On tonight's special 00:00:27.710 --> 00:00:30.530 album dive edition of the show, I'm joined by 00:00:30.530 --> 00:00:33.009 singer -songwriter Matt Scannell of Vertical 00:00:33.009 --> 00:00:35.789 Horizon. And we're about to dive into the band's 00:00:35.789 --> 00:00:38.649 breakthrough album, Everything You Want, which 00:00:38.649 --> 00:00:41.909 is celebrating its 25th anniversary this summer 00:00:41.909 --> 00:00:45.270 with a brand new translucent orange vinyl LP 00:00:45.270 --> 00:00:47.770 pressing. Matt, thank you so much for joining 00:00:47.770 --> 00:00:50.750 me on my weekly mixtape. Hey, Brian. Thanks for 00:00:50.750 --> 00:00:53.920 having me. Well, before we dive into the album, 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:57.000 I always like to ask my first time guests, what 00:00:57.000 --> 00:01:02.079 does the word mixtape mean to you? Oh, man. Yeah. 00:01:02.740 --> 00:01:10.060 TDK, Maxell, handwritten notes. You know, I took 00:01:10.060 --> 00:01:12.760 it very seriously. I would write when like I've 00:01:12.760 --> 00:01:14.959 tried to make it look like a font. You know what 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:17.540 I mean? When I'm like writing them out. And I 00:01:17.540 --> 00:01:21.840 remember my childhood best friend, he thought 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:24.219 I should be listening to Yes. He was like, you 00:01:24.219 --> 00:01:26.079 should get into Yes. And I remember him making 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:29.340 me some Yes mixtapes. And he even drew like the 00:01:29.340 --> 00:01:33.140 Yes logo, like the Roger Dean Yes logo on it. 00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:37.140 Yeah, no, I have lots of affection and memories 00:01:37.140 --> 00:01:40.719 of mixtapes. I mean, that was my generation, 00:01:40.959 --> 00:01:42.959 Brian. I mean, that, there you go. I was there, 00:01:43.019 --> 00:01:46.329 literally cassettes. That is the same here. And 00:01:46.329 --> 00:01:48.950 by the time this album came out, the subject 00:01:48.950 --> 00:01:51.950 of today's episode, Vertical Horizons, Everything 00:01:51.950 --> 00:01:54.689 You Want, I would say we were more on the mixed 00:01:54.689 --> 00:01:58.329 CD phase of life. But the album was released 00:01:58.329 --> 00:02:02.609 on June 15th, 1999, and is actually the band's 00:02:02.609 --> 00:02:06.430 third album, but first on a major label following 00:02:06.430 --> 00:02:11.250 1992's There and Back Again and 1995's Running 00:02:11.250 --> 00:02:14.949 on Ice. Could you talk about the evolution of 00:02:14.949 --> 00:02:18.610 Vertical Horizon from those independent and self 00:02:18.610 --> 00:02:22.169 -produced releases to working with a major label, 00:02:22.250 --> 00:02:25.870 RCA Records, for everything you want? Yeah, no, 00:02:25.949 --> 00:02:29.129 it was a huge, huge transition. It was quite 00:02:29.129 --> 00:02:32.530 a journey to get there from here, as it were. 00:02:32.770 --> 00:02:35.250 You know, we started the band as an acoustic 00:02:35.250 --> 00:02:39.870 duo, just myself and Keith Cain. And if you listen 00:02:39.870 --> 00:02:42.710 to There and Back Again, it's very much, that 00:02:42.710 --> 00:02:45.129 kind of an ethos, just two acoustic guitars, 00:02:45.349 --> 00:02:48.389 two vocals and sort of incidental percussion 00:02:48.389 --> 00:02:52.750 and keyboards and stuff. And then we, you know, 00:02:52.770 --> 00:02:56.610 I had always played in bands growing up. So the 00:02:56.610 --> 00:02:59.849 kind of acoustic thing was a little bit more 00:02:59.849 --> 00:03:03.430 of a sidebar for me rather than the main, you 00:03:03.430 --> 00:03:06.409 know, the main journey, you know, a side street, 00:03:06.530 --> 00:03:11.819 I guess, rather than the main journey. So I kind 00:03:11.819 --> 00:03:15.659 of encouraged us to bring more guys onto the 00:03:15.659 --> 00:03:20.740 stage, drums and bass. You know, you could only 00:03:20.740 --> 00:03:24.219 move so many people in a room. This is, of course, 00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:27.840 Ed Sheeran has blown that completely out of the 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:31.099 water. But at the time, we believed that you 00:03:31.099 --> 00:03:33.419 could only move people so much in a room with 00:03:33.419 --> 00:03:35.599 two acoustic guitars. And so then, you know, 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:37.800 yeah, we brought in drums and bass, and then 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:41.189 we recorded Running on Ice. And Carter Beauford 00:03:41.189 --> 00:03:44.189 from Dave Matthews Band. I have to always give 00:03:44.189 --> 00:03:47.129 him love and appreciation because he, when we 00:03:47.129 --> 00:03:49.610 were looking to have a drummer on the record, 00:03:49.689 --> 00:03:53.810 he came down and, or came up rather to DC from 00:03:53.810 --> 00:03:56.530 Charlottesville and played on about half the 00:03:56.530 --> 00:03:59.550 record. And you could just hear the joy that 00:03:59.550 --> 00:04:03.810 he brings to music in all of his tracks. It's 00:04:03.810 --> 00:04:06.409 really inspiring and incredible. And that was 00:04:06.409 --> 00:04:09.860 our first. Time sort of recording as more of 00:04:09.860 --> 00:04:13.900 a band in terms of the instrumentation. And then, 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:17.879 yeah, we toured incessantly for, I guess we started 00:04:17.879 --> 00:04:22.220 in 91 and this is probably around 97, 98. We 00:04:22.220 --> 00:04:26.160 started meeting with major labels. And in the 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:28.899 meanwhile, we actually released a live record 00:04:28.899 --> 00:04:33.660 called Live Stages that we kind of recorded almost 00:04:33.660 --> 00:04:39.040 as... Out of frustration, let's say, because 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:43.680 we weren't getting to the next step, which was 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:46.699 at the time to sign with a major label. And so 00:04:46.699 --> 00:04:49.160 the beginning of that record starts with like 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:51.800 40 seconds of just the audience going crazy. 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:55.680 And we then sent that record to every A &R person 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:58.399 we could think of. And we knew that at the very 00:04:58.399 --> 00:05:01.540 least, if they listened to it at all, they were 00:05:01.540 --> 00:05:05.819 going to have to listen to 40 seconds of, people 00:05:05.819 --> 00:05:10.279 who really got us even if they didn't and we 00:05:10.279 --> 00:05:14.339 also at that time we sold our 70 ,000th record 00:05:14.339 --> 00:05:18.720 on sound scan so as an independent artist we 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:22.740 had sold 70 ,000 units And I think those two 00:05:22.740 --> 00:05:24.920 things, hearing the audience like that, and then 00:05:24.920 --> 00:05:28.199 the numbers to sort of back it up, that was what 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:31.019 kind of brought the major labels sort of, you 00:05:31.019 --> 00:05:35.720 know, around to our band. And we ultimately signed, 00:05:35.860 --> 00:05:39.759 we wound up signing with RCA. And it was a great, 00:05:39.819 --> 00:05:44.759 great place to be. And then we really experienced 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:48.480 what it's like to have a world -class team kind 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:52.449 of. pulling for you and raising you up, you know, 00:05:52.470 --> 00:05:55.689 many, many, many levels. And that's what the 00:05:55.689 --> 00:05:58.750 Everything You Want experience was. Well, let's 00:05:58.750 --> 00:06:01.730 dive into that experience. I'm a sucker for album 00:06:01.730 --> 00:06:04.990 opening tracks. So let's start there with the 00:06:04.990 --> 00:07:04.319 album's opening track, We Are. Now, in hindsight, 00:07:04.660 --> 00:07:08.319 the band had no idea what was about to happen 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:11.860 with the album's second single, as that wouldn't 00:07:11.860 --> 00:07:14.639 be released for another six months. But that 00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:18.720 being said, we are reached number 21 on the U 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:22.279 .S. Billboard Modern Rock Tracks chart. And this 00:07:22.279 --> 00:07:25.300 was the song that introduced me to the band's 00:07:25.300 --> 00:07:28.600 music through my college radio station, 90 .3 00:07:28.600 --> 00:07:34.139 WMSC. Looking back on that six -month gap between 00:07:34.139 --> 00:07:37.720 We Are and the band dropping the single Everything 00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:40.379 You Want, because We Are was chosen as the lead 00:07:40.379 --> 00:07:44.759 single, what was the initial reception for the 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:48.379 album during that time period? You know, it's 00:07:48.379 --> 00:07:51.660 a really good question. I think it was, so first 00:07:51.660 --> 00:07:55.660 of all, the label wanted to lead with a more 00:07:55.660 --> 00:07:59.360 sort of rock -heavy song. Because they knew that 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:03.160 in an ideal world, we would get to songs like 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:06.000 Everything You Want and You're a God and Best 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:09.180 I Ever Had. I think that was, I think they even 00:08:09.180 --> 00:08:11.879 probably knew back then that maybe that was the 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:15.360 order that it would go in. And so at the time, 00:08:15.459 --> 00:08:19.019 and I'm not sure exactly why this is, but they 00:08:19.019 --> 00:08:21.759 sort of, let's lead with something that's a little 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:24.480 bit more hard hitting to sort of establish you 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:28.639 as a band that has an edge to it. And we are 00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:30.860 certainly as an edge. I mean, it's an intense 00:08:30.860 --> 00:08:34.139 song and I think a great way to open the record 00:08:34.139 --> 00:08:37.799 and probably subsequently a great way to introduce 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:42.440 our music to people at a bigger, wider level. 00:08:42.899 --> 00:08:45.399 But I don't think it, you know, clearly it didn't. 00:08:45.610 --> 00:08:47.809 It didn't burn up the charts. It didn't become 00:08:47.809 --> 00:08:50.870 a hugely successful song. I do remember hearing 00:08:50.870 --> 00:08:54.830 it on WBCN in Boston. I grew up in Worcester, 00:08:54.889 --> 00:08:56.929 Massachusetts in the middle of the state. And 00:08:56.929 --> 00:08:59.870 I remember hearing it on BCN and thinking, well, 00:08:59.889 --> 00:09:02.710 this is it. I mean, if it stops now, I'm done. 00:09:02.850 --> 00:09:07.769 I'm good. Honestly, I was like, okay, yeah, I'll 00:09:07.769 --> 00:09:11.149 need to find another job now. But if this is 00:09:11.149 --> 00:09:18.149 it, I heard my song on WBCN. Radio was hugely 00:09:18.149 --> 00:09:22.129 important to the story of this band. It was sort 00:09:22.129 --> 00:09:24.669 of that sweet spot of time where we were sort 00:09:24.669 --> 00:09:28.009 of just pre -Napster and the scene at radio was 00:09:28.009 --> 00:09:32.190 still really, really vibrant. And so people were 00:09:32.190 --> 00:09:36.850 buying records and radio was still really flourishing 00:09:36.850 --> 00:09:39.509 and kind of each market was kind of... to a certain 00:09:39.509 --> 00:09:43.429 degree, unique. But yeah, I wouldn't say that 00:09:43.429 --> 00:09:47.730 we did all the work that we were hoping it would 00:09:47.730 --> 00:09:50.049 do. But at the same time, it paved the way for 00:09:50.049 --> 00:09:53.590 at least for us to get on to the next single, 00:09:53.649 --> 00:09:57.070 which did a bit better. I was going to say October 00:09:57.070 --> 00:10:01.149 19th, 1999, the album's title track, Everything 00:10:01.149 --> 00:10:05.779 You Want, is released to Alternative Radio. Somewhere 00:10:05.779 --> 00:10:10.600 there's speaking, it's already coming in. Oh, 00:10:10.779 --> 00:10:15.539 and it's rising at the back of your mind. You 00:10:15.539 --> 00:10:20.840 never could get in unless you were fitted. Now 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:26.240 you're here and you don't know why. But under 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:32.200 skinned knees and the skid marks, past the places 00:10:32.200 --> 00:11:09.399 where you used to run. Now, everything you want 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:12.700 didn't reach number one on the U .S. Billboard 00:11:12.700 --> 00:11:17.860 Hot 100 until July 15th, 2000, following its 00:11:17.860 --> 00:11:22.000 commercial release in June of 2000. Looking back 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:27.279 on this in hindsight, October of 1999 to July 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:31.700 of 2000. is a long time for a song to be given 00:11:31.700 --> 00:11:35.580 to make that ascent. Can you talk about the initial 00:11:35.580 --> 00:11:39.039 alternative radio reception and how that decision 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:42.340 was made to push it commercially at that point? 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:47.559 Because in 2024 terms, that time period is just, 00:11:47.740 --> 00:11:51.940 it's almost staggering. So I think, and I'm not 00:11:51.940 --> 00:11:54.000 sure if it still does, but I think at the time 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:57.580 it had a record of the single that took the longest 00:11:57.580 --> 00:12:00.679 to get to number one. And really, so I think 00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:02.679 that's a couple of things. I think I remember 00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:05.919 that people reacted very favorably to it. People 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:07.840 who were hearing it on the radio would call the 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:11.000 radio station and say, Hey, I really liked that 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:12.460 song. Could you play it again? So there was a 00:12:12.460 --> 00:12:14.500 lot of people, there were a lot of people calling 00:12:14.500 --> 00:12:16.700 the stations that were playing the song, which 00:12:16.700 --> 00:12:21.740 sort of bode well for other radio stations, maybe 00:12:21.740 --> 00:12:26.169 having a similar experience. Also, RCA, you know, 00:12:26.169 --> 00:12:30.149 again, we were at a label that was rooting for 00:12:30.149 --> 00:12:33.809 us. They really wanted us to succeed. And you 00:12:33.809 --> 00:12:36.690 can see it, I mean, just in the time that they 00:12:36.690 --> 00:12:39.570 gave us with that song alone, right? Clearly, 00:12:39.570 --> 00:12:41.909 they believed in it. They believed in us. And 00:12:41.909 --> 00:12:44.009 they wanted us to have that, you know, have that 00:12:44.009 --> 00:12:46.850 shot of having a song that would do, you know, 00:12:46.850 --> 00:12:51.110 well, let's say top 10. And yeah, then the thing 00:12:51.110 --> 00:12:54.090 just started to gather momentum. And it almost 00:12:54.090 --> 00:12:57.870 became this, you had this sense that it was something 00:12:57.870 --> 00:13:01.309 that was going to become an evergreen song, even 00:13:01.309 --> 00:13:04.450 while it was a new song. There was something 00:13:04.450 --> 00:13:08.350 about it. I don't know what it is, but there's 00:13:08.350 --> 00:13:10.389 something about Everything You Want that just, 00:13:10.649 --> 00:13:14.070 it just felt like, oh, this is going to stick 00:13:14.070 --> 00:13:16.799 around for a while. As opposed to something that 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:18.879 just climbs up the charts and then disappears. 00:13:19.179 --> 00:13:22.000 You know, people seemed to want to hear it again 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:25.059 and again and again. And I don't know what that 00:13:25.059 --> 00:13:28.399 is particularly. I have thoughts, but I'm not 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:31.580 exactly sure what that is. But it was incredible. 00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:33.460 I mean, yeah, I remember thinking, wouldn't it 00:13:33.460 --> 00:13:36.279 be great if this song continued to climb up the 00:13:36.279 --> 00:13:40.779 charts? Like we had been slogging it out in beer 00:13:40.779 --> 00:13:46.710 soaked. bars for seven years and then you finally 00:13:46.710 --> 00:13:50.889 are at a place where your life really could change 00:13:50.889 --> 00:13:54.970 you know this could make a difference for the 00:13:54.970 --> 00:13:58.370 rest of your life and hope you know i just remember 00:13:58.370 --> 00:14:01.210 hoping doing everything we could which was a 00:14:01.210 --> 00:14:04.289 lot we worked very very hard but also just hoping 00:14:04.289 --> 00:14:07.289 that this maybe would be something that could 00:14:07.710 --> 00:14:10.350 Stick around. And the beautiful thing now too 00:14:10.350 --> 00:14:15.470 is 25 years later, this record has a deeply important 00:14:15.470 --> 00:14:19.289 place in a lot of people's lives. And it's also 00:14:19.289 --> 00:14:21.269 the other thing, it's one of the many things 00:14:21.269 --> 00:14:23.389 that's beautiful about this is we're seeing it 00:14:23.389 --> 00:14:26.950 from the perspective of multiple generations. 00:14:27.210 --> 00:14:30.169 So we've got, you know, the original, our friends 00:14:30.169 --> 00:14:32.809 and fans who were with us originally back in 00:14:32.809 --> 00:14:35.830 2000, but now you've got, you know. their kids 00:14:35.830 --> 00:14:38.110 and now their kids are having kids. So we've 00:14:38.110 --> 00:14:40.750 got, you know, here's what happens. You're in 00:14:40.750 --> 00:14:44.049 a line, like a meet and greet line. And at first 00:14:44.049 --> 00:14:46.769 it's, you know, in 2000 is I love your band. 00:14:46.889 --> 00:14:48.590 I love your music. Okay, cool. Hey, thank you 00:14:48.590 --> 00:14:52.629 so much. Then 10, 15 years later, it's my mom 00:14:52.629 --> 00:14:55.009 loves your music. My mom really loves your music. 00:14:55.070 --> 00:14:57.769 Okay, that's cool. It's weird, but it's cool. 00:14:59.070 --> 00:15:03.129 And now 2024, it's, oh yeah, my grandfather played 00:15:03.129 --> 00:15:06.450 me your record. He loves your record. And it's 00:15:06.450 --> 00:15:10.570 strange on the one hand to be like acknowledging 00:15:10.570 --> 00:15:13.990 that time stands still for no one and you're 00:15:13.990 --> 00:15:18.269 just moving on along with the rest of us. And 00:15:18.269 --> 00:15:22.490 there are a lot of younger people who are coming 00:15:22.490 --> 00:15:26.929 up, but that's the best case scenario, man. Like 00:15:26.929 --> 00:15:32.120 for families. to have an affinity for our music, 00:15:32.179 --> 00:15:39.320 it's a miracle. It's a total miracle. So 25 years, 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:41.799 on the one hand, it's strange. On the other hand, 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:46.200 it is the greatest, you know? Well, in past interviews, 00:15:46.379 --> 00:15:48.840 you've stated that Everything You Want is a personal 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:53.419 story of unrequited love. As the track skyrocketed 00:15:53.419 --> 00:15:56.899 to being Billboard's most played single of 2000, 00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:00.360 How did that impact you as a songwriter? Because 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:04.120 for well over a year, the public continued to 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:07.720 respond and resonate with something that stemmed 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:11.220 from a, let's be honest here, probably not an 00:16:11.220 --> 00:16:14.679 easy experience. And that's something that you 00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:16.740 kind of poured your heart and soul out into the 00:16:16.740 --> 00:16:20.200 lyrics, into this song. Does that feel almost 00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:23.940 like a closure? Does that bring you a sense of 00:16:23.940 --> 00:16:27.220 peace? Yeah, there's no peace, Brian. There's 00:16:27.220 --> 00:16:30.399 never any peace. We don't have any peace. So 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:34.080 it's a really great question. When I was younger, 00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:38.179 I wrote from a place of pain most of the time. 00:16:38.259 --> 00:16:42.600 I was trying to help myself feel better, trying 00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:46.600 to fix the pieces inside of myself that are broken. 00:16:47.139 --> 00:16:53.860 And as a consequence, I would cause trauma. in 00:16:53.860 --> 00:16:57.919 my life so that I would have that energy to draw 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:02.519 from to write songs with. So I hurt some very 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:09.039 good people in order to stay sad and edgy and 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:12.000 depressed so that I could write songs. I mean, 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:15.299 this is, I hate saying this out loud, right? 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.829 It's awful. to say this out loud, but it's also 00:17:18.829 --> 00:17:22.069 the truth. And one of the greatest things about 00:17:22.069 --> 00:17:25.150 getting a bit older and hopefully a bit wiser 00:17:25.150 --> 00:17:28.109 is you realize like, hey, I know what pain feels 00:17:28.109 --> 00:17:30.890 like. I can remember that. I don't need to be 00:17:30.890 --> 00:17:36.549 living in it to write a sad song. Because sometimes 00:17:36.549 --> 00:17:39.690 you feel like writing a sad song, you know? But 00:17:39.690 --> 00:17:45.490 it's a really good question. I'm not sure that 00:17:45.490 --> 00:17:49.369 it ever helped me feel any closure, but I do 00:17:49.369 --> 00:17:57.410 know that it felt authentic and real. And every 00:17:57.410 --> 00:18:02.009 time I sing it, I'm in a real place inside my 00:18:02.009 --> 00:18:06.049 heart. It's not something that I fabricated. 00:18:06.470 --> 00:18:09.809 So let me sidestep this for a second and give 00:18:09.809 --> 00:18:11.569 another example. There are a lot of bands out 00:18:11.569 --> 00:18:15.210 there. who resent their hit song or hit songs. 00:18:15.690 --> 00:18:19.470 They maybe felt pressured by the label to do 00:18:19.470 --> 00:18:21.869 something in a certain way, or they were sort 00:18:21.869 --> 00:18:24.509 of, a song was given to them and they were sort 00:18:24.509 --> 00:18:27.789 of forced to sing it. But you know, another person's 00:18:27.789 --> 00:18:30.009 song. And so I don't have any of those feelings. 00:18:30.069 --> 00:18:32.529 This is something that came from me. This is 00:18:32.529 --> 00:18:35.210 something that I was experiencing. So what I 00:18:35.210 --> 00:18:38.880 actually feel rather than closure, per se, is 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:41.599 I feel gratitude. Every time I'm singing it, 00:18:41.660 --> 00:18:45.400 I feel this sense of joyous gratitude to the 00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:49.140 song, to this song that has changed everything 00:18:49.140 --> 00:18:52.920 for me and provided for me in ways that I could 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:56.000 never have even imagined back in the day when 00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:59.920 we were thinking about giving up. You know, I 00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:04.640 think as a songwriter, as a lyricist, you have 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:07.650 to progress. You have a different relationship 00:19:07.650 --> 00:19:12.049 with your craft over time. Back in my 20s, it 00:19:12.049 --> 00:19:15.269 was almost like I was just clawing at the wall 00:19:15.269 --> 00:19:19.150 to try to climb up to a place of peace. And now 00:19:19.150 --> 00:19:23.849 I have moments of peace and moments of pain, 00:19:24.069 --> 00:19:28.869 but it's a little bit more balanced. And I wouldn't 00:19:28.869 --> 00:19:33.069 change that for the world. It's much better. 00:19:33.740 --> 00:19:37.119 here in this place than it was in that place. 00:19:37.220 --> 00:19:40.359 So I feel gratitude for it. And maybe on some 00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:44.200 level then there is a bit of closure from being 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:48.940 that person and feeling those feelings and now 00:19:48.940 --> 00:19:53.059 sort of moving on to a slightly better place, 00:19:53.140 --> 00:19:56.619 let's call it. Well, obviously that's talking 00:19:56.619 --> 00:19:58.740 lyrically about the track, but I also want to 00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:01.660 touch on the music because that hypnotic opening 00:20:01.660 --> 00:20:05.920 guitar whiff with the swells and all is instantly 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:10.079 recognizable and a signature component of the 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:15.579 song so let's rewind 25 26 27 years ago when 00:20:15.579 --> 00:20:19.059 you're writing this song then you have two incredibly 00:20:19.059 --> 00:20:21.700 strong components here the lyrical aspect of 00:20:21.700 --> 00:20:25.799 this track and then this hypnotic guitar chicken 00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:28.500 in the egg question here which came first the 00:20:28.500 --> 00:20:32.589 music of the lyrics The music. The music. I call 00:20:32.589 --> 00:20:37.309 it the mantra. That thing, I think of it as a 00:20:37.309 --> 00:20:43.950 mantra. The mantra came to me in a dream at about 00:20:43.950 --> 00:20:46.029 four o 'clock in the morning in my apartment 00:20:46.029 --> 00:20:50.250 in Chelsea, in Manhattan. And I heard it in my 00:20:50.250 --> 00:20:51.849 head and I thought, well, I'll remember that 00:20:51.849 --> 00:20:53.309 in the morning. I should remember that. That 00:20:53.309 --> 00:20:55.289 sounds good. Of course, you never remember anything 00:20:55.289 --> 00:20:58.410 in the morning. But I did, I rolled over, I went 00:20:58.410 --> 00:21:00.869 back to sleep. And about 15 minutes later, I 00:21:00.869 --> 00:21:04.069 heard the chords that the acoustic guitar chords 00:21:04.069 --> 00:21:07.509 that go underneath the mantra part. And then 00:21:07.509 --> 00:21:08.970 I thought to myself, well, that's interesting. 00:21:09.230 --> 00:21:12.369 Those two parts would probably go really well 00:21:12.369 --> 00:21:15.670 together. And, you know, but I rolled over and 00:21:15.670 --> 00:21:18.509 I went back to sleep. And then 20 minutes later, 00:21:18.589 --> 00:21:21.430 I heard the whole chorus lyrically in my head. 00:21:21.730 --> 00:21:25.730 And that's when I jumped out of bed and... hit 00:21:25.730 --> 00:21:28.309 the cassette recorder, got the paper out and 00:21:28.309 --> 00:21:31.630 writing as frenetically fast, as fast as I possibly 00:21:31.630 --> 00:21:33.829 could. And the other thing too, is when you hear 00:21:33.829 --> 00:21:36.130 something in the middle of the night and you 00:21:36.130 --> 00:21:39.190 record it, there's a, there's a level of awakeness 00:21:39.190 --> 00:21:42.289 that, uh, that you need to be at for it to be 00:21:42.289 --> 00:21:44.730 intelligible the next day. So there, I have, 00:21:44.769 --> 00:21:47.990 I have, I have many little cassette musings or 00:21:47.990 --> 00:21:49.529 whatever that I record in the middle of the night 00:21:49.529 --> 00:21:57.009 that just sound like. And it's like, dude, what 00:21:57.009 --> 00:21:59.809 are you doing? Like, come on. But I got myself 00:21:59.809 --> 00:22:02.849 out of bed and I caught that one. I think of 00:22:02.849 --> 00:22:04.490 it also as like these songs come through the 00:22:04.490 --> 00:22:06.049 ether and you're either going to sort of catch 00:22:06.049 --> 00:22:08.769 them or they're just going to disappear and either 00:22:08.769 --> 00:22:13.309 go somewhere else or just never exist. So I view 00:22:13.309 --> 00:22:18.309 it more as I'm a receiver of inspiring moments 00:22:18.309 --> 00:22:21.829 and thoughts rather than a creator of them. So 00:22:21.829 --> 00:22:23.589 I have to ask, do you still have that original 00:22:23.589 --> 00:22:26.349 cassette? recording of your everything you want 00:22:26.349 --> 00:22:29.910 idea yeah yeah and it's the the original cassette 00:22:29.910 --> 00:22:33.309 is you can hear it you can you can understand 00:22:33.309 --> 00:22:36.470 it and so that helped me get to the next step 00:22:36.470 --> 00:22:39.369 which was the demo that i did which is which 00:22:39.369 --> 00:22:42.829 is also on a cassette multi -track and you can 00:22:42.829 --> 00:22:45.630 hear the mantra guitar you can hear the drum 00:22:45.630 --> 00:22:48.230 pattern the the the you know everything is kind 00:22:48.230 --> 00:22:51.990 of pretty mapped out you know it it was you know 00:22:51.990 --> 00:22:55.200 it was it was That song was a force of nature, 00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:58.019 even in the early days. It's pretty great. I'm 00:22:58.019 --> 00:23:01.160 grateful for it. Well, the follow -up to Everything 00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:55.210 You Want was the hit single, You're a God. This 00:23:55.210 --> 00:23:57.910 reached number 23 on the Billboard US Hot 100. 00:23:58.170 --> 00:24:00.410 And again, I'm going to reach into the lyrics 00:24:00.410 --> 00:24:03.289 first, if you don't mind. But yeah, I've got 00:24:03.289 --> 00:24:05.990 to be honest. We're covered in lies and that's 00:24:05.990 --> 00:24:10.950 OK. This song for me is taking back the hold 00:24:10.950 --> 00:24:15.299 or the power that. You've given someone over 00:24:15.299 --> 00:24:19.640 you, which is a very powerful moment for somebody 00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:22.740 when they experience. Luckily, I could say I 00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:26.119 have experienced this feeling. So this song has 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:29.960 always resonated with me because of I know the 00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:33.259 moment you're singing about in that song. Can 00:24:33.259 --> 00:24:35.480 you talk about the message of this song with 00:24:35.480 --> 00:24:39.160 25 years of hindsight and how it still resonates 00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:43.039 with you as the key songwriter, as well as. fans 00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:46.480 of this song? Yeah. You know, it's really interesting 00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:50.119 because it's not like Your God performed at radio 00:24:50.119 --> 00:24:53.140 as well as Everything You Want did at the time. 00:24:53.220 --> 00:24:57.420 It didn't. But it's really interesting now, playing 00:24:57.420 --> 00:25:01.059 that song so many years later, people really 00:25:01.059 --> 00:25:03.579 have taken that song into their hearts. And I 00:25:03.579 --> 00:25:07.990 think there's an element of... I think we've 00:25:07.990 --> 00:25:11.549 all done that before, given people the power 00:25:11.549 --> 00:25:15.190 to make our decisions for us. And then at some 00:25:15.190 --> 00:25:18.069 point, if you're lucky, you become aware of it 00:25:18.069 --> 00:25:19.970 and you realize that they don't deserve that 00:25:19.970 --> 00:25:21.710 power. So you take it back for yourself. And 00:25:21.710 --> 00:25:25.410 it can be just that easy. Like, no, I'm not going 00:25:25.410 --> 00:25:28.690 to let you make decisions for me anymore. You're 00:25:28.690 --> 00:25:31.990 done. And that was the thing for me. And I just 00:25:31.990 --> 00:25:35.130 let you go. But yeah, it's really interesting. 00:25:35.889 --> 00:25:38.289 we, it's almost like you kind of expect it from 00:25:38.289 --> 00:25:39.970 everything you want because it was sort of this 00:25:39.970 --> 00:25:43.170 behemoth of a song, but you're a God, you know, 00:25:43.210 --> 00:25:46.369 we, we play, we, we just played last week in, 00:25:46.369 --> 00:25:50.190 uh, in North Carolina and, you know, it comes 00:25:50.190 --> 00:25:52.450 to the pre -chorus is the never again part and 00:25:52.450 --> 00:25:54.730 people sing louder than we do. I mean, you, you 00:25:54.730 --> 00:25:57.650 just, you, you gotta stop and let them go, you 00:25:57.650 --> 00:26:00.769 know? Um, it's like, Hey, you guys sing, you 00:26:00.769 --> 00:26:04.509 guys take over. So it's this beautiful, pure, 00:26:05.929 --> 00:26:11.329 song, I think it's an example of trying to learn 00:26:11.329 --> 00:26:14.190 how to make, I'll just speak first person for 00:26:14.190 --> 00:26:16.950 you, of me learning, trying to learn how to make 00:26:16.950 --> 00:26:20.430 myself feel better through songwriting. I was 00:26:20.430 --> 00:26:23.769 never particularly good with words in conversation. 00:26:24.390 --> 00:26:28.390 I wasn't particularly good at relationships and 00:26:28.390 --> 00:26:32.559 the pain or the heartache or the... sort of questioning 00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:35.740 feelings, the uncertainty that I would have, 00:26:35.779 --> 00:26:39.279 I would try to funnel all that into a song. And 00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:42.160 then the song would, you know, Tom Waits had 00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:45.779 a funny, funny way of saying it, you know, where 00:26:45.779 --> 00:26:48.420 he would write a song and for him, his songs 00:26:48.420 --> 00:26:50.880 were little boats that he'd put, you know, little 00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:53.240 paper boats or whatever he'd put in a river. 00:26:53.420 --> 00:26:55.779 And he'd say, okay, now go fly away and make 00:26:55.779 --> 00:26:59.319 daddy some money, which is funny. And I don't 00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:02.369 really think about... And for me, it's not like, 00:27:02.430 --> 00:27:05.750 go make me some money. But it is like, I feel 00:27:05.750 --> 00:27:08.490 like I'm putting the songs, I mean, not to be 00:27:08.490 --> 00:27:11.750 disingenuous. It's like, okay, yes, this is my 00:27:11.750 --> 00:27:14.230 vocation. This is how I earn a living. So yeah, 00:27:14.289 --> 00:27:16.589 you have to earn a living and make money. So 00:27:16.589 --> 00:27:19.049 I don't want to sound like I'm not like, you 00:27:19.049 --> 00:27:21.910 know, somebody who needs to work for a living. 00:27:21.950 --> 00:27:25.329 I absolutely do. But the songs, the songs themselves. 00:27:26.220 --> 00:27:28.380 It's like they are these little boats that you 00:27:28.380 --> 00:27:30.920 put all your feelings in and then you just let 00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:35.460 them go fly away. Go either impact someone else 00:27:35.460 --> 00:27:40.819 or more importantly, I've put the pain into a 00:27:40.819 --> 00:27:45.500 vessel and now I can let it go. Wow. Well, the 00:27:45.500 --> 00:27:47.680 last single from the album that I'd like to bring 00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:50.660 up is the hit song, Best I've Ever Had, Gray 00:27:50.660 --> 00:28:16.650 Sky Morning. Love can be so boring. Nothing's 00:28:16.650 --> 00:28:24.309 quite the same now. I just say your name now. 00:28:25.210 --> 00:28:43.480 But it's not so. You don't want me back. You're 00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:54.259 just the best I ever had. Released January 8th, 00:28:54.259 --> 00:29:00.079 2001, 20 months after We Are was first released 00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:03.880 to radio. In the year 2024, that... Distance 00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:07.240 in time between singles is absolutely staggering 00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:11.579 to even consider a label doing that now. Can 00:29:11.579 --> 00:29:14.920 you talk about the impact that RCA did with the 00:29:14.920 --> 00:29:18.460 single schedule and maybe what that had on the 00:29:18.460 --> 00:29:21.400 album's longevity? I think there are a couple 00:29:21.400 --> 00:29:24.480 of things at play. Number one, they were arguably 00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:27.920 the best label to be on at the time under Bob 00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:31.980 Jameson's leadership. So they had a great team 00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:34.940 of people who were very, very good at their jobs. 00:29:35.099 --> 00:29:37.480 And if you were lucky enough to sort of have 00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:41.799 their focus, which it's just the luck of the 00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:45.579 draw. There's only so much bandwidth for any 00:29:45.579 --> 00:29:49.039 group of people. And we were fortunate to receive 00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:53.339 the focus of their bandwidth for much of the 00:29:53.339 --> 00:29:57.240 Everything You Want record cycle. So it's that, 00:29:57.339 --> 00:30:00.990 but it's also... I think we have to take some 00:30:00.990 --> 00:30:04.289 credit in that they were rooting for us. They 00:30:04.289 --> 00:30:07.569 believed in us. They wanted good things for us. 00:30:08.009 --> 00:30:11.130 And if you are someone who shows appreciation, 00:30:11.410 --> 00:30:16.069 who shows up on time and does the work and says, 00:30:16.089 --> 00:30:20.609 please and thank you, like, I think it has to 00:30:20.609 --> 00:30:23.690 count for something. And I do believe that they 00:30:23.690 --> 00:30:26.809 invested in us. But one of the reasons, all that 00:30:26.809 --> 00:30:29.210 time, but one of the reasons that they invested 00:30:29.210 --> 00:30:36.230 in us was us and was the group of guys that we 00:30:36.230 --> 00:30:40.130 were. And we were working hard. We were present. 00:30:40.289 --> 00:30:44.799 We were grateful. And I think just that stat 00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:47.200 alone, right, that they were still pushing the 00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:50.759 button after after all that time. Right. It just 00:30:50.759 --> 00:30:53.599 it just shows a couple, you know, a couple I 00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:56.059 think a couple of things. One, they they were 00:30:56.059 --> 00:31:00.519 incredibly passionate and and they fought hard 00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:04.680 for us. And two, I think maybe maybe, you know, 00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:07.480 maybe we were worth fighting for at the time. 00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:10.480 And and and that's a beautiful thing. Like how 00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:15.559 how. How, you know, again, another miracle, like 00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:17.980 the fact that we wound up with them and there 00:31:17.980 --> 00:31:20.140 were challenging times after this record, right? 00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:23.880 With RCA, they went through enormous changes, 00:31:24.119 --> 00:31:27.740 basically 80 % of the workforce got fired. And 00:31:27.740 --> 00:31:29.579 so they had a whole bunch of new people come 00:31:29.579 --> 00:31:31.500 in. And when we released our next record, Go, 00:31:31.640 --> 00:31:34.900 we found out what it felt like to not be the 00:31:34.900 --> 00:31:37.720 focus of some, you know, of someone's bandwidth. 00:31:38.180 --> 00:31:42.269 And that's fine. But yeah, we... We were still 00:31:42.269 --> 00:31:44.789 going for it. And Best I Ever Had, you know, 00:31:44.829 --> 00:31:47.269 the amazing thing about Best I Ever Had too is 00:31:47.269 --> 00:31:50.849 it had this second life as a single at country 00:31:50.849 --> 00:31:54.710 radio. Yes, Gary Allen. Gary Allen recorded it. 00:31:54.789 --> 00:31:57.849 And the circumstances were incredibly tragic 00:31:57.849 --> 00:32:02.450 in that he lost his wife. Yes. And so it was 00:32:02.450 --> 00:32:05.289 even in the moment, it was very bittersweet for 00:32:05.289 --> 00:32:10.009 me. But I also knew that the song resonated with 00:32:10.009 --> 00:32:14.349 him. And what a privilege for me as a songwriter 00:32:14.349 --> 00:32:18.650 to have written something that in that time could 00:32:18.650 --> 00:32:23.950 be maybe some positive, something positive in 00:32:23.950 --> 00:32:26.150 his world at a time when he desperately probably 00:32:26.150 --> 00:32:29.950 needed that. So, again, just the power of a song, 00:32:30.069 --> 00:32:33.569 right? I remember writing Best I Ever Had and 00:32:33.569 --> 00:32:36.759 thinking... is this a Radiohead song that like 00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:40.119 I, you know, is this melody a Radiohead melody? 00:32:40.220 --> 00:32:43.240 Like I felt like it was better than I was as 00:32:43.240 --> 00:32:45.619 a writer. I felt like the melodies were better 00:32:45.619 --> 00:32:49.519 than me. And so I was suspicious of it. And fortunately, 00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:54.039 you know, I went through all my CDs waiting with 00:32:54.039 --> 00:32:57.000 like chewing my nails, like, oh, here it is here. 00:32:57.119 --> 00:32:59.539 Oh yeah, it's a James Taylor song, you dummy. 00:33:00.940 --> 00:33:04.680 But no, it's mine. Again, that's the thing, right? 00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:06.880 Being receptive to the moment of inspiration. 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:10.279 I heard this beautiful melody. And I don't say 00:33:10.279 --> 00:33:12.640 that thinking like I wrote a beautiful melody. 00:33:12.779 --> 00:33:14.799 I'm just saying I heard a beautiful melody. It 00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:17.420 was beautiful. Let's write a song about it or 00:33:17.420 --> 00:33:21.380 around it. Now, you mentioned Radiohead and you're 00:33:21.380 --> 00:33:23.660 thinking all this stuff in your head. When you're 00:33:23.660 --> 00:33:25.799 writing this song, did it ever occur to you that, 00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:28.480 wow, one day this is going to translate to a 00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:33.819 top 10 country hit? Yeah, no, of course. Yeah, 00:33:33.859 --> 00:33:37.859 of course not. That was a surreal, surreal moment. 00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:39.779 And of course, growing up in Worcester, Massachusetts, 00:33:40.299 --> 00:33:42.579 country music wasn't something we were exposed 00:33:42.579 --> 00:33:47.619 to. So I didn't have any country music in my 00:33:47.619 --> 00:33:51.420 upbringing. But I will say, so the song craft 00:33:51.420 --> 00:33:56.140 in country is, you know, certain aspects of country 00:33:56.140 --> 00:34:00.599 music, the song craft is incredibly... stringent 00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:04.859 and well -constructed. And I mean, if you're 00:34:04.859 --> 00:34:06.779 starting to feel a little big for your britches, 00:34:06.779 --> 00:34:09.719 go to Nashville, sit down with a Nashville writer 00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:11.460 and they'll put you in your place because these 00:34:11.460 --> 00:34:15.500 people are the best in the game and you can... 00:34:15.500 --> 00:34:18.719 I'll never forget I was writing with a country 00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:21.460 writer, amazing writer named Chuck Cannon, who 00:34:21.460 --> 00:34:25.170 I just love dearly. And we were working on this 00:34:25.170 --> 00:34:27.869 song and there was something in songwriting, 00:34:27.929 --> 00:34:30.010 lyric writing called a soft rhyme. I'm going 00:34:30.010 --> 00:34:32.929 to try to think of like an example. Instead of 00:34:32.929 --> 00:34:36.530 saying like face and grace, which are sort of 00:34:36.530 --> 00:34:41.610 strong rhymes, I'm not sure what the actual term 00:34:41.610 --> 00:34:44.670 is, but like you have these rhymes that there's 00:34:44.670 --> 00:34:48.070 a sound in there, but they're not as sort of 00:34:48.070 --> 00:34:51.630 like cut and paste perfect. There's a classic 00:34:51.630 --> 00:34:54.989 Eminem interview where he talks about you can't 00:34:54.989 --> 00:34:58.530 rhyme the word orange. He says, why not porridge? 00:34:58.949 --> 00:35:01.590 To me, that's where I kind of feel the soft rhyme 00:35:01.590 --> 00:35:03.989 coming in. Perfect. So that's perfect. So it's 00:35:03.989 --> 00:35:07.090 absolutely perfect. So in certain circles, porridge 00:35:07.090 --> 00:35:11.789 and orange are great. But I remember in my writing 00:35:11.789 --> 00:35:14.409 session with Chuck, we had a porridge and orange 00:35:14.409 --> 00:35:16.309 moment. And he was like, what are you doing with 00:35:16.309 --> 00:35:19.269 that porridge, dude? No, it's not going to happen. 00:35:19.949 --> 00:35:23.449 Not on my watch. So if you don't have, if there's 00:35:23.449 --> 00:35:27.309 not a word that's like soaring, we're not writing 00:35:27.309 --> 00:35:32.710 that line. Yeah. So the craft in Nashville and 00:35:32.710 --> 00:35:36.130 with a lot of those writers is really high. So 00:35:36.130 --> 00:35:40.409 I, and I will say that I was aspiring to that 00:35:40.409 --> 00:35:44.400 level of. aspiring to that level of excellence, 00:35:44.599 --> 00:35:48.119 right? I had a strong diet of James Taylor and 00:35:48.119 --> 00:35:52.059 David Wilcox and Sean Colvin, Mark Cohn, you 00:35:52.059 --> 00:35:55.559 know, these people who maybe were country adjacent, 00:35:55.880 --> 00:35:59.119 you know, folk writers. And they share, I think, 00:35:59.139 --> 00:36:05.380 a similar passion for a well -built song. And 00:36:05.380 --> 00:36:09.289 so, Best I Ever Had. comes from sort of that 00:36:09.289 --> 00:36:13.349 side, I think, of my influences. So it's not, 00:36:13.449 --> 00:36:16.690 ultimately, maybe not quite as surprising that 00:36:16.690 --> 00:36:20.449 it would have found a home at country. So we've 00:36:20.449 --> 00:36:23.030 covered the big hits and the radio anthems, but 00:36:23.030 --> 00:36:25.889 everything you want is so much more than that. 00:36:26.210 --> 00:36:29.429 The next song I want to chat about is Send It 00:36:29.429 --> 00:37:24.860 Up. This is a tune that, while it wasn't released 00:37:24.860 --> 00:37:27.460 as a single, has been a mainstay in the band's 00:37:27.460 --> 00:37:29.579 live sets throughout the years and still remains 00:37:29.579 --> 00:37:32.659 a fan favorite. Looking back in hindsight, are 00:37:32.659 --> 00:37:36.059 there songs from Everything You Want that maybe 00:37:36.059 --> 00:37:39.619 you or the band hoped would have continued to 00:37:39.619 --> 00:37:42.420 be singles? Because Send It Up is one of those 00:37:42.420 --> 00:37:44.659 ones that comes to mind for me as a fan thinking, 00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:48.679 how wasn't this a single? Oh, thank you, man. 00:37:49.550 --> 00:37:52.590 I think the truth of the matter is we got way 00:37:52.590 --> 00:37:57.289 more than we could have ever dreamt of with We 00:37:57.289 --> 00:37:59.210 Are, Everything You Want, You're a God, and Best 00:37:59.210 --> 00:38:02.929 I Ever Had. I mean, we never – the train could 00:38:02.929 --> 00:38:05.809 have stopped at We Are, right? I mean, really. 00:38:05.889 --> 00:38:08.489 And for a lot of people, it does. It's like one 00:38:08.489 --> 00:38:12.710 shot and you're out. So, I don't think any of 00:38:12.710 --> 00:38:16.670 us were feeling that the thing should have kept 00:38:16.670 --> 00:38:20.789 going. We were also, to be fair, we were exhausted. 00:38:21.670 --> 00:38:26.570 We were toast at the end of, you know, at the 00:38:26.570 --> 00:38:28.849 end of the record cycle. So I think we all like 00:38:28.849 --> 00:38:31.150 more than anything needed a rest. We needed a 00:38:31.150 --> 00:38:34.090 little lie down. But yes, send it up. Look, I 00:38:34.090 --> 00:38:39.010 mean, I was trying at the time and continue to, 00:38:39.130 --> 00:38:43.769 I was trying to write and sing things that felt 00:38:43.769 --> 00:38:47.989 singable, right? Like, let's have fun here. And 00:38:47.989 --> 00:38:50.690 even if it's a sad song, let's have a melody 00:38:50.690 --> 00:38:55.289 that we can all join in on. And not in a disingenuous 00:38:55.289 --> 00:38:59.050 way or a premeditated way. Like, let's just, 00:38:59.090 --> 00:39:02.730 I'd rather write a song that maybe someone else 00:39:02.730 --> 00:39:05.530 would want to join me in. That's it. There you 00:39:05.530 --> 00:39:08.670 go. If the spirit is, hey, let's join in this 00:39:08.670 --> 00:39:11.050 together. Let's have this be some sort of a communal 00:39:11.050 --> 00:39:14.889 experience. You can write melodies that are inviting. 00:39:15.530 --> 00:39:18.730 to people or you can write melodies that are 00:39:18.730 --> 00:39:23.449 very sort of exclusionary like you're not going 00:39:23.449 --> 00:39:26.570 to be if you're not a professional musician you're 00:39:26.570 --> 00:39:28.829 not going to be able to nail this crazy melody 00:39:28.829 --> 00:39:30.909 so just sit back and there's a beauty to that 00:39:30.909 --> 00:39:33.489 as well right um but send it up is a perfect 00:39:33.489 --> 00:39:36.929 example i think of uh of just something that's 00:39:36.929 --> 00:39:39.849 um that's singable and it's also a phrase you 00:39:39.849 --> 00:39:41.630 know it's interesting there were many iterations 00:39:41.630 --> 00:39:44.210 of that song i knew there was something there 00:39:44.210 --> 00:39:47.440 but i The chorus was something I was struggling 00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:51.980 to crack the code on. And finally, you know, 00:39:52.019 --> 00:39:57.519 I came or got found, send it up. And to me, that 00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:00.619 it just meant, let it go. Let this, you know, 00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:07.739 you've got all these feelings, all this, as Peter 00:40:07.739 --> 00:40:10.039 Gabriel says, you're digging in the dirt, right? 00:40:10.119 --> 00:40:12.980 You've got all this stuff and just let it go. 00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:17.480 Just let it fly away. And send it up to the sky 00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:20.539 and just, you know, maybe you'll feel a little 00:40:20.539 --> 00:40:23.300 bit better. So, but it doesn't, you know, music 00:40:23.300 --> 00:40:26.739 doesn't come with a sort of decoder ring. And 00:40:26.739 --> 00:40:30.079 I think it's for the best, right? Because, you 00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:32.280 know, what I maybe intend is not necessarily 00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:36.719 what resonates for someone else. And so, I don't 00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:41.139 even necessarily think I need to say what... 00:40:41.420 --> 00:40:43.940 any of these songs are really about but at the 00:40:43.940 --> 00:40:46.219 same time i think enough time has passed that 00:40:46.219 --> 00:40:49.960 like it's the that spoilers are not um you know 00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:53.340 it's like we're in a spoiler free zone um but 00:40:53.340 --> 00:40:55.900 yeah send it up is just a sweet little pop song 00:40:55.900 --> 00:40:59.079 well the last song i'd like to bring up from 00:40:59.079 --> 00:41:01.579 the album is one that i think is the most criminally 00:41:01.579 --> 00:41:04.920 underrated track on the album that being you 00:41:04.920 --> 00:42:02.010 say oh thanks man Once again, lyrically, this 00:42:02.010 --> 00:42:04.929 song hits me with a line like, here in the light, 00:42:04.989 --> 00:42:08.429 it burns you out sometimes. Here in the shell 00:42:08.429 --> 00:42:12.190 of a sun, we echo on. Given the anniversary of 00:42:12.190 --> 00:42:14.449 the album, the band is out playing live and you're 00:42:14.449 --> 00:42:17.070 revisiting some of the songs that maybe haven't 00:42:17.070 --> 00:42:20.750 been played on the regular over the last 25 years. 00:42:21.010 --> 00:42:24.250 Are there any songs that have been kind of brought 00:42:24.250 --> 00:42:27.429 back from the dead, so to speak, that maybe you're 00:42:27.429 --> 00:42:30.230 seeing a new resurgence from the audience and 00:42:30.230 --> 00:42:32.789 from the band on that you're going, wow, how 00:42:32.789 --> 00:42:35.670 did this fall out of the set list just because 00:42:35.670 --> 00:42:39.409 of time passing? Well, that's a really good question. 00:42:39.510 --> 00:42:41.289 And it's funny you would mention You Say because 00:42:41.289 --> 00:42:44.690 we've been opening shows recently with You Say. 00:42:45.289 --> 00:42:48.429 And it's a really powerful song to... you know, 00:42:48.429 --> 00:42:50.789 begin the show with. I don't really know why 00:42:50.789 --> 00:42:56.929 we didn't play it for a long time. But, you know, 00:42:56.949 --> 00:42:59.469 it is interesting. You see people sing along 00:42:59.469 --> 00:43:01.909 with it. You know, people are glad to hear it 00:43:01.909 --> 00:43:04.590 again, you know, relatively speaking here, right? 00:43:04.610 --> 00:43:08.110 You know. We're not playing stadiums. It's not 00:43:08.110 --> 00:43:10.409 like that, you know, that like hundreds of thousands 00:43:10.409 --> 00:43:12.769 of people with bated breath wanting to hear you 00:43:12.769 --> 00:43:16.050 say. But yeah, when we play it, it's like, oh 00:43:16.050 --> 00:43:19.650 yeah, I like that one. And I also have to say, 00:43:19.690 --> 00:43:22.809 I kind of like the urgency of the mid -tempo 00:43:22.809 --> 00:43:25.610 opener. There's something really confident for 00:43:25.610 --> 00:43:28.610 me about that. We tend to open with We Are or 00:43:28.610 --> 00:43:32.730 songs like that, Broken Over You from Echoes 00:43:32.730 --> 00:43:36.050 from the Underground. But Usai, I think the tempo 00:43:36.050 --> 00:43:38.849 shows a little bit more confidence to kind of 00:43:38.849 --> 00:43:41.630 go like, no, we'll get you there. But we're not, 00:43:41.710 --> 00:43:44.010 you know, we're not starting there, you know. 00:43:45.010 --> 00:43:47.969 But it is a nice song. I particularly love the 00:43:47.969 --> 00:43:51.110 drum performance. I think Ed's drum performance 00:43:51.110 --> 00:43:55.530 on Usai is amazing. And incidentally, when we 00:43:55.530 --> 00:43:59.050 tracked it originally up at Bearsville Studios 00:43:59.050 --> 00:44:02.579 with Ben Gross. It was much more of a straight 00:44:02.579 --> 00:44:06.139 ahead rock song. Just the drum performance was 00:44:06.139 --> 00:44:09.090 very, very straight ahead rock. Almost... Almost 00:44:09.090 --> 00:44:11.989 more of like an ACDC kind of just like really 00:44:11.989 --> 00:44:15.369 kind of meat and potatoes. And when we were finishing 00:44:15.369 --> 00:44:17.510 the record, we realized that we kind of overshot 00:44:17.510 --> 00:44:19.389 the mark, I think, a little bit on that song. 00:44:19.489 --> 00:44:21.829 And that was one of the songs that Mark Endert's 00:44:21.829 --> 00:44:26.090 presence, I think, can be most felt on. He brought 00:44:26.090 --> 00:44:30.329 in those keyboard, those beautiful keyboard atmospheres 00:44:30.329 --> 00:44:33.989 in the verses and encouraged Ed to completely 00:44:33.989 --> 00:44:37.809 reevaluate the way he... Performed the drum track. 00:44:38.030 --> 00:44:42.889 So in the verses, the snare drum, the snares 00:44:42.889 --> 00:44:45.130 go off the snare and they become much more of 00:44:45.130 --> 00:44:49.150 a hollow kind of sound, less traditional backbeat. 00:44:49.230 --> 00:44:52.170 And actually I'm there, if I recall correctly, 00:44:52.349 --> 00:44:56.750 I'm in the studio in the room with Ed, like lying 00:44:56.750 --> 00:45:00.670 down on the floor with my hand on the strainer 00:45:00.670 --> 00:45:04.769 of the snare to like when he gets to the part 00:45:04.769 --> 00:45:08.099 in the verse. I take the snares off for him. 00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:10.900 So all he had to do is just keep playing and 00:45:10.900 --> 00:45:13.420 not think about the mechanics of getting the 00:45:13.420 --> 00:45:17.500 drum to do what we needed it to do. And that 00:45:17.500 --> 00:45:20.960 was a fun moment. But I think his performance 00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:25.880 really sets the tone for that song of what makes 00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:28.960 it, in my opinion, special now. It's sort of, 00:45:28.960 --> 00:45:32.780 it's like... sort of rock adjacent with a little 00:45:32.780 --> 00:45:35.059 bit of like peter gabriel thrown in there and 00:45:35.059 --> 00:45:38.960 the verses now we've been here celebrating everything 00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:43.059 you want 25th anniversary however i think i'd 00:45:43.059 --> 00:45:45.940 forever regret interviewing you and not bringing 00:45:45.940 --> 00:45:48.920 up a vertical horizon song that helped me personally 00:45:48.920 --> 00:45:51.440 through one of the toughest times in my life 00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:53.739 and you brought up the album earlier and it's 00:45:53.739 --> 00:45:58.440 from 2003's go and the song is forever Take these 00:45:58.440 --> 00:46:07.119 roses off of me Let me live, let me be For a 00:46:07.119 --> 00:46:11.920 little while Let my eyes see everything and nothing 00:46:11.920 --> 00:46:44.550 in their time I do not mind But I can tell you 00:46:44.550 --> 00:47:14.780 your face is clear. I will see you. And I know 00:47:14.780 --> 00:47:17.460 we've had such an upbeat discussion about all 00:47:17.460 --> 00:47:19.539 the songs, and I don't mean to turn this to a 00:47:19.539 --> 00:47:22.420 little bit of a downer, but a little over a dozen 00:47:22.420 --> 00:47:25.139 years ago, I lost one of my closest friends. 00:47:25.739 --> 00:47:28.639 Oh, I'm so sorry. I loved the song when I first 00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:32.260 heard it. But in 2011, this song took on a whole 00:47:32.260 --> 00:47:35.880 new meaning for me. And sing me songs that echo 00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:39.059 in my head and my heart. That's where you are. 00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:41.730 I could almost... I'm almost not getting it out, 00:47:41.769 --> 00:47:45.329 but I would love to hear the story behind this 00:47:45.329 --> 00:47:48.469 track because I'm guessing that I'm not the first 00:47:48.469 --> 00:47:51.789 person to tell you how Forever has resonated 00:47:51.789 --> 00:47:55.809 with them after losing someone. Yeah. Well, first 00:47:55.809 --> 00:47:59.389 of all, I'm really sorry for your loss. And it's 00:47:59.389 --> 00:48:03.809 an honor to me that that song would maybe give 00:48:03.809 --> 00:48:07.469 you some solace that would help you in some way. 00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:10.619 You're right. It's one of those songs I think 00:48:10.619 --> 00:48:15.679 that has done a good job for a lot of people. 00:48:15.820 --> 00:48:19.780 And I'm really thankful for that because I have 00:48:19.780 --> 00:48:22.320 obviously approached it from a place there were 00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:24.900 a few. It wasn't one person that I lost when 00:48:24.900 --> 00:48:26.579 I was writing. I was actually writing it about 00:48:26.579 --> 00:48:29.179 three different people who I was missing, people 00:48:29.179 --> 00:48:32.260 who are gone. And it sort of became this one 00:48:32.260 --> 00:48:35.559 song. And for me, it's about more than one person. 00:48:35.639 --> 00:48:39.260 But I have to mention, The first time I think 00:48:39.260 --> 00:48:42.340 that I really realized that maybe that song was 00:48:42.340 --> 00:48:47.960 helping people was when we were over in Iraq. 00:48:48.119 --> 00:48:52.800 We play as many shows for the servicemen and 00:48:52.800 --> 00:48:55.639 women of our armed forces as we possibly can. 00:48:55.780 --> 00:48:58.820 When I was growing up, I didn't serve in the 00:48:58.820 --> 00:49:02.650 military, but some of my best friends did. always 00:49:02.650 --> 00:49:04.829 felt like there was something that I should have 00:49:04.829 --> 00:49:08.230 done that I didn't do. And so, we've been given 00:49:08.230 --> 00:49:11.250 these opportunities now over time to bring our 00:49:11.250 --> 00:49:14.190 music to far -flung places around the world. 00:49:14.510 --> 00:49:18.710 And after one of the shows out there in the desert 00:49:18.710 --> 00:49:22.150 in one of these forward operating bases, there 00:49:22.150 --> 00:49:26.610 was a tank driver came up to me and was saying... 00:49:26.920 --> 00:49:31.260 talking to me and he said, when you play forever, 00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:33.960 it reminds me of my best friend who was in our 00:49:33.960 --> 00:49:37.659 unit and we lost him six months ago or three 00:49:37.659 --> 00:49:40.139 months ago or something. It was very, very recent. 00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:45.679 And so, just so you know, like that song makes 00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:48.940 me feel better. And I realized that like I can 00:49:48.940 --> 00:49:51.440 carry him with me as I move forward in my life. 00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:57.280 And he had said to, this kills me. As the show 00:49:57.280 --> 00:49:59.760 was going on, he asked one of his teammates, 00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:02.820 he said, is there something wrong with my face? 00:50:02.980 --> 00:50:05.900 Because I feel like something's going on with 00:50:05.900 --> 00:50:09.619 my face. Maybe we went through some like toxic 00:50:09.619 --> 00:50:12.880 gas or something. Is there a reaction on my skin? 00:50:12.920 --> 00:50:15.119 Are you seeing a reaction on my skin? Should 00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:17.780 I go to the doctor or something? And his teammate 00:50:17.780 --> 00:50:22.650 said, yeah, buddy, you're smiling. Wow. And he 00:50:22.650 --> 00:50:26.349 hadn't been smiling in so long that his muscles 00:50:26.349 --> 00:50:32.909 in his face felt weird doing so. And right. So, 00:50:32.909 --> 00:50:37.610 you know, these songs continue to resonate with 00:50:37.610 --> 00:50:40.409 different people for different reasons at different 00:50:40.409 --> 00:50:43.949 levels. And when I hear something like what you 00:50:43.949 --> 00:50:48.190 said, Brian, and also what this guy said to me, 00:50:48.409 --> 00:50:52.300 it's incredibly humbling because... I tend to 00:50:52.300 --> 00:50:55.400 write in a very insular way. It's very selfish. 00:50:55.659 --> 00:50:59.980 This pursuit is very much like I said earlier, 00:51:00.059 --> 00:51:02.440 why am I feeling the way I feel? What is this 00:51:02.440 --> 00:51:08.300 thing? Why do I feel like just... this darkness 00:51:08.300 --> 00:51:11.659 or this pain or whatever it is. Why do I feel 00:51:11.659 --> 00:51:15.260 this joy? Why do I feel elated? Whatever, whatever 00:51:15.260 --> 00:51:17.780 the feeling might be. Although over time, it's 00:51:17.780 --> 00:51:20.119 probably been more of the dark stuff that I've 00:51:20.119 --> 00:51:24.079 sort of dived into. And so forever is one, every 00:51:24.079 --> 00:51:28.380 single time we play it live, every time I see 00:51:28.380 --> 00:51:32.179 people out front getting emotional and, uh, and. 00:51:33.099 --> 00:51:36.559 I couldn't have ever said that that would be 00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:39.940 a reaction to this little song that I wrote for 00:51:39.940 --> 00:51:43.679 these people that I miss. But that's what happens 00:51:43.679 --> 00:51:46.940 with music, right? Again, Tom Waits, they sail 00:51:46.940 --> 00:51:49.599 away and they become part of people's stories. 00:51:49.780 --> 00:51:52.539 They become part of generations of families' 00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:59.070 stories. And I'm terribly sorry. that you went 00:51:59.070 --> 00:52:02.110 through that. But I'm also so grateful that you 00:52:02.110 --> 00:52:04.570 told me that that song was helpful to you. And 00:52:04.570 --> 00:52:09.869 it's a real, real privilege to be in that position. 00:52:10.750 --> 00:52:13.409 So thank you very, very much. Well, Matt, it's 00:52:13.409 --> 00:52:15.730 been a real privilege to be able to talk Vertical 00:52:15.730 --> 00:52:18.469 Horizon music with you today. This summer, the 00:52:18.469 --> 00:52:20.989 band is on the road with Toad the Wet Sprocket 00:52:20.989 --> 00:52:24.849 and recent My Weekly Mixtape guest, Robin Wilson. 00:52:25.400 --> 00:52:28.059 the rest of Jim Blossoms, of course. I have to 00:52:28.059 --> 00:52:31.280 say, this is a perfect musical lineup for the 00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:35.179 summer. Will the Vertical Horizon sets on this 00:52:35.179 --> 00:52:38.099 run be dedicated to everything you want, or are 00:52:38.099 --> 00:52:40.219 you going to spread it out across the discography? 00:52:40.840 --> 00:52:43.179 Yeah. So we, unfortunately we have a shorter 00:52:43.179 --> 00:52:45.840 set on those shows. There's only, you know, with 00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:49.000 three bands like that and Toad and Jins are co 00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:51.760 -headlining. So we're not going to be able to 00:52:51.760 --> 00:52:54.199 play the whole record the way we've been doing 00:52:54.199 --> 00:52:57.019 it at some of our headlining shows this year, 00:52:57.079 --> 00:53:00.679 but we will try to, you know, bring in a deeper 00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:04.449 cut or two. And, you know, we've also been having 00:53:04.449 --> 00:53:07.369 fun playing some covers, some songs from other 00:53:07.369 --> 00:53:10.130 bands that we, you know, deeply love. And so 00:53:10.130 --> 00:53:13.429 that's been fun as well. You know, it's just 00:53:13.429 --> 00:53:16.150 to get out there with those guys. They've got 00:53:16.150 --> 00:53:19.210 so many great songs. It's going to be a really 00:53:19.210 --> 00:53:23.650 fun tour. And I just, I'm not exactly sure what 00:53:23.650 --> 00:53:26.949 our set's going to look like. But I do know that 00:53:26.949 --> 00:53:28.969 we'll be there and we'll be singing. You're just 00:53:28.969 --> 00:53:31.460 going to have to go and find out. Order your 00:53:31.460 --> 00:53:35.440 copy now of the 25th anniversary vinyl edition 00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:38.940 of Vertical Horizons' Everything You Want. Catch 00:53:38.940 --> 00:53:40.920 the band this summer when they're out on the 00:53:40.920 --> 00:53:43.900 road with Toad the Wet Sprocket and recent My 00:53:43.900 --> 00:53:46.559 Weekly Mixtape guest, Gin Blossoms, for their 00:53:46.559 --> 00:53:50.019 summer tour. Matt, this has been such an honor 00:53:50.019 --> 00:53:52.000 talking music with you tonight. Thank you so 00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:55.019 much for joining me on My Weekly Mixtape. My 00:53:55.019 --> 00:53:56.599 pleasure to be here. Thanks for taking the time 00:53:56.599 --> 00:53:59.170 to talk to me. And remember, you can find my 00:53:59.170 --> 00:54:01.570 weekly mixtape on all the social media haunts 00:54:01.570 --> 00:54:05.820 at My Weekly Mixtape. You can also head to myweeklymixtape 00:54:05.820 --> 00:54:08.780 .com to check out the full catalog of My Weekly 00:54:08.780 --> 00:54:11.139 Mixtape episodes. And if you like what you're 00:54:11.139 --> 00:54:12.860 hearing on this show, you can help me out by 00:54:12.860 --> 00:54:15.500 either telling a friend, leaving the show a five 00:54:15.500 --> 00:54:18.260 -star review wherever you're tuning in, or becoming 00:54:18.260 --> 00:54:22.019 a Patreon mixtaper at patreon .com forward slash 00:54:22.019 --> 00:54:25.659 myweeklymixtape. There you can enjoy ad -free 00:54:25.659 --> 00:54:28.400 episodes of the show, chime in on future topics, 00:54:28.599 --> 00:54:32.059 become a future guest, and so much more. That's 00:54:32.059 --> 00:54:33.860 all for this week. Thanks again for listening. 00:54:33.960 --> 00:54:36.320 And until next time, enjoy the tunes.