Welcome to My Weekly Mixtape, a podcast that
takes the classic mixtape approach to building
a modern playlist. I'm your host, Brian Colburn.
There are simply no words to express how grateful
I am to welcome tonight's guest. He's written
hits for Three Dog Night, The Carpenters, Barbra
Streisand, The Monkees, and Daft Punk, just to
name a few. He's appeared on screen in Smokey
and the Bandit, The Muppet Movie, Oliver Stone's
The Doors, and many others. And along with that,
he's the president of the ASCAP Board of Directors,
an essential resource for songwriters, composers,
and music publishers. But most importantly, for
me at least, he is the songwriter responsible
for my favorite song of all time, The Rainbow
Connection. It's my absolute honor to welcome
the one and only Paul Williams to my weekly mixtape.
Thank you for joining me, Paul. Thank you, Brian.
I really appreciate it. You know, the one great
thing about what we do for a living, we don't
have to give up our fan card. I mean, you don't
give up yours, I don't give up mine. So when
you talk about the Muppets, you're talking about
Jim Henson or Brian Henson and the Henson family
and some of my dearest friends, Gonzo and Kermit
and the gang. So this is... It's something I
love talking about people that I love and whatever
Gonzo is. Well, before we get to the good stuff,
I always like to start by asking my first time
guests, what does the word mixtape mean to you?
Ah, I remember my daughter when she was in high
school, had just been accepted at Tulane. And
she said, Dad, I asked her about something when
she was listening to. And she said, well, my
mixtape is, and she had everything from, you
know, from reggae to Sarah Vaughan to, you know,
and it's like, and. there was an immediate reassurance
that I had a culturally diverse daughter. But
beyond culturally diverse, it's, I would say,
genre diverse and time frame as far as point
of creation, curiosity, which was wonderful to
hear. So it's like the idea that she could have
a... a hank williams record and then and then
after listening to that listening to uh edith
piaf or something you kind of go wow and then
jump into daft punk because you got to pay attention
to dad once in a while Well, there are so many
areas of your career that we could dive into,
but tonight we're going to hone in on two specific
soundtracks that you played a major role in.
Now, given the time of year it is, I think it's
only fitting that we start with what is, in my
humble opinion, the greatest Christmas special
ever, that being Emmett Otter's Jug Band Christmas.
This was the special that I grew up watching
year in and year out, and my wife and I have
been lucky enough to be able to continue that
tradition with our children each and every Christmas
Eve. Paul, when Emmett Otter was in its earliest
stages of development, what were you working
with when you were composing these songs? Was
it just the script, or did you have an idea of
what these characters would already look and
sound like? Well, first of all, where the title
appeared before me for the first time was on
a book that Jim Henson handed me in England.
I went over to do The Muppet Show. I was on the
first season. I think it was like the fifth episode
or something, fifth or eighth, I don't know.
But it was the first season of The Muppet Show,
and I was already a huge fan of The Muppets.
I mean, all the way back to Jim with his slinkies
on. I loved them. On the road, my band and I
watched Sesame Street probably, I mean, more
than the evening news in those days. I always
joke that there were members of my band that
learned how to use a fork watching Sesame Street.
So I was a big, big fan. And when I went over
to do the Muppet show, it was like stepping onto,
you know, I felt, you know, in M &R's Jugman
Christmas, the guys have a treehouse. And I felt
like when I walk on the set of The Muppet Show,
I felt like I was in a treehouse with a gang
that I belonged to. I had never felt a more immediate
connection to a group of performers. The Muppet
performers were like instant family. You know,
we treated each other with the same respect and
disrespect humorously. It was great. I had the
best time I think the gym did and the whole gang
did. It's just an amazing environment to work
in. But he handed me a book and he said, you
know what, this is an amazing little story by
the Hobans. We're going to do a one -hour special
based on this. It's called Emmett Otter's Jug
Band Christmas. And I would really like for you
to write the songs for it. I mean, I was thrilled,
of course, first of all, to have him want to
do something specifically with me. Okay. When
you work with the Muppets, you act like a Muppet
every now and then. So what existed was, first
of all, the book, and then Jerry Jewell's script
was the next thing I was handed. There are actually
some of the titles of the songs are in the book.
There's a song about the bathing suit. I mean,
there's no lyrics, there's no song, but there's
just, you know, Emma and Amal were rowing down
the river, whatever, singing the bathing suit
that Grandma Otter wore, or a title that was
closed. But, you know, I went off and wrote the
songs. I approach writing anything where there's
a story and characters. As an actor. I mean,
I started out as an actor. I couldn't make a
living at it. And I evolved in, you know, one
door slams sometimes on your fingers. So you
open another one. And the one that I opened,
that was open for me, was to write songs. So
all of a sudden, I'm sitting looking at these
characters. There are two goals in writing songs
for a show like Emmett Otter or The Muppet Christmas
Carol or any story with characters. is first
of all you want to you don't want to bog things
down for a song you want to keep the story rolling
so it's like advance the story and let's let's
learn something about the the inner life of the
characters so those are my two goals so i can
write a song like that like a hole in the bathtub
or in the wash tub rather, that advances the
story, you know, like everything is super in
life, you know, head full of good thoughts, belly
full of grub, you know, money in your pocket
when there ain't no hole in the wash tub. And
at the same token, write a song, you know, like
when the river meets the sea, which speaks to
kind of maybe an inner faith. You know, where
Ma and Emmett are about the fact that they've
lost the potter and he's on the other side of
the veil. So there's a little inner life there
and all. But basically, the stylings of the songs
is pretty much Americana. And I mean, beyond
my knowledge of Stephen Foster or whatever, I
mean, that was not the genre that I had ever
really, really written for. And I didn't really
research it. What I wrote came out of the characters,
and I was told after the fact, you've been writing
basically Americana music in that with your words
and music to songs like When the River Meets
the Sea and the like. So it's a long, long answer
to a really good question. Well, how much was
Jim Henson involved during the songwriting process?
Because I'm sure he had a vision for what would
be shown in the film during the performances
of these songs. Well, he had a script about what
was going on, the songs I wrote, and he, thank
God, loved them. One of the things that was most
unique about Jim was that he was not somebody
who micromanaged the people that he worked with.
I think that applies to all of the Muppet performers.
It was a classic moment when I was brought in
to do the songs for the Muppet movie. And I think
in a lot of ways Emmett Otter's Jug Band Christmas
was kind of an audition for me to see if I'd
be the right guy for the Muppet movie. I said
yes, but I also decided to bring Kenny Asher
in because his music is more sophisticated than
mine. So beautiful. We write words and music
at the same time, so we do both. I'm basically
lyrics, he's basically music and all. One of
the first things we did is we met at my house
in the Hollywood Hills with Jim and Jerry Jewell,
the scriptwriter. I think Frank Oz was there
and talked about what the Muppet movie would
be about, a road picture of frogs discovered
in the blah, blah, blah, blah. And walking Jim
to his car, and I've told this story a lot, walking
him to his car, I said, you know, Jim, this is
a big deal for you guys. I know that, and for
me too. And we're not going to surprise you when
we're working on the songs. I want you to see
what we're doing. So make sure we're headed in
the right direction. And he said, oh, Paulie,
I'm sure you'd say Paulie then. Oh, Paul, I don't
need that. Yeah, I'll hear him in the studio
when you're recording. And I was like, did I
hear that right? He was, in fact, I think so
secure with the choices that he made. And I think
he was smart enough to realize there's a certain
point where you don't try to guide somebody,
you know, towards a very specific goal beyond.
That's the point on the horizon that we're sailing
to. I trust you to find your way to it in your
own way, and it's going to be appropriate to
the story and the characters and all. But I think
the other thing that he was capable of was being
totally surprised by what he heard. and not just
rejecting it based on the fact that it was not
in his original vision. I think part of the joy
of being a creative artist for Jim, and it's
a supposition on my part, but I think I saw the
way he laughed at stuff that Dave Goldsch would
do with Gonzo or some of the other characters
or Jerry Nelson. And he was the first... observer
of of some great performances and i think i think
that kept him solidly in that place where he
allowed the world of of his creators to surprise
him well then i want to kind of hone in on that
for a second because in emmet otter there are
instrumental moments throughout the show that
are kind of driven by the songs talking about
carrots the dancing horse or the acrobatic squirrels
was there anything written in the script that
would say we're looking for whimsical we're looking
for circus we're looking or or did you just kind
of read the script and those sounds just popped
up in your head I don't remember the specifics.
I mean, it might have said, you know, like a
somber mood, you know, like the candle lights
are blown out, you know, it's the end of the
day and there might be like a ballad to come,
whatever. But, you know, he was not, I mean,
if I could read that script and not know what
that should feel like, I was the wrong guy for
the job, you know. But the other thing is that
there are several things that I recorded and
wrote and recorded and produced through the years
where I was on the road with my band. I had a
fantastic road band, and they knew me so well.
I mean, that's like literally with... I don't
know if you're a fan of Phantom of the Paradise,
but there's all these different kinds of music
in there. And I would go in with a chord sheet
and a lyric sheet that I had on the road. We'd
do like Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday gigs.
Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, we'd sneak into
a studio. A lot of times it was Sigma Sound in
Philadelphia. I pass out the chord sheets, and
this is something I just wrote, and I'm like,
okay, so it's... And they start playing, you
know. On Phantom of the Paradise, it was a matter
of sitting down and going... Okay, Beach Books.
They delivered amazing performances immediately.
And it was a creative relationship that was just,
I mean, I don't know that I could have done any
of the scores. And also on Emmett Otter. All
that background music was, we just, there was
no click track. There was no, it was, we would
screen, you know, like that first scene with
the, I'm trying to remember what the opening
cue was. But we'd look at it, and I'd sing or
play what I wanted, you know, for the guys. Guitar.
Maybe, you know, and the guys would play it.
So we're, you know, with, all right, roll tape,
and we would play a cue, go on to the next cue.
And that's the way I worked on that. Then you
find me later on with things like the Anne from
Burt Reynolds, or even the Muppet movie, where
it's... I'm sitting there with a great orchestrator
next to me, and with that orchestrator, I'm hearing...
I'm hearing arco basses there, and I'm hearing
flutes at the top, maybe with high strings. Every
now and then he'd turn to me and he'd say, congratulations.
You just killed a horn player because a horn
player can't get into that register. Because
I have no training, so I don't know what I'm
doing. But it's like the bumblebee cannot fly.
It's been scientifically proven that the wings
aren't big enough. But the bumblebee doesn't
know that he can't fly, so he does. The end of
the movie being there, Chauncey Gardner does
not sink in the pond because he's so naive that
he thinks he can walk on water, so he does. I
thought I could do music when I was asked to,
so I did. Well, now you are talking about your
band playing these songs. There's no denying,
even though they're the antagonists in Emmett
Otter, the impact that the Riverbottom Nightmare
Band had on both the special itself and then
the hearts of us who grew up watching it. That
song was obviously either inspired or influenced
by the psychedelic rock scene of the decade,
like Iron Butterfly, Jimi Hendrix, The Doors.
Was that how you presented it to the band? You
know, the fact that I write certain kinds of
music, for example, you know, when I first started
out, I was a very middle -of -the -road writer.
I loved, you know, the Laurel Canyon crowd and
wished I was a part of it, but I was writing
for, you know, thank God, the Carpenters and
Three Dog Night and amazing bands and amazing
musicians, but not really the, you know, the
Metallica crowd. Incidentally, I saw Metallica
live at the Library of Congress. when Elton and
Bernie were given the Gershwin Prize. And I had
never seen Metallica, and I somehow missed that
the opening band was Metallica that I did not
recognize. But I went nuts. I was, oh, my God,
the guitar work, I like that. People come up,
that's Metallica. I went, oh, that's Metallica?
You know, it's like Michael Keaton in Starman
when he tastes apple pie the first time, and
he goes, that's apple pie? So there's, I mean,
when I was writing for, you know, before I had
any hits going, I was writing album cuts for
Steve Lawrence or, you know, the Peppermint Trolley
or whatever. Or when I was writing for the Carpenters
and the like, or Helen Reddy or Streisand, the
music I was listening to was the original Delaney
and Bonnie and Friends, who I was, you know,
a huge fan of Poco and... My taste was much more
rock and roll than what I was creating. So when
I sit down and I have a chance to write for Dr.
Teeth, you know, or the Riverbottom Nightmare
Band, I was like, I dive in. I love it. Well,
the one question I want to ask you from a songwriting
perspective for Emmett Otter, when you were writing
Our World and Brothers, the theme of those songs,
and I hope I'm not spoiling the ending to Emmett
Otter here if you haven't seen it. skip over
this part but the theme of those songs are the
fact that they work better together than separate
so when you were writing it did you write the
combined version first and then break out the
two other songs or did you write each song and
say how the heck am i supposed to put these together
now you just kind of described it perfectly it
had to be a The way that it came together was
realizing that they had to fit at each piece.
So to write two separate songs and try to do
that would have been crazy. So I went, we're
closer now than ever before. How much alike we
are. Perhaps we're long lost brothers. You know,
there's love in our world and we're showing it
more. We even think we're the same. You know,
there may be others. I wrote the second song
as kind of an answer to each line of the first
song. And then I got out musical scissors and
cut them in two and went, we're closer now than
ever before. There's love in our world and we're
showing it more. Our world's this. So they each
existed separately. and enough to be an actual
song. I think that they're both equally sentimental,
and it worked. I mean, it was wonderful. It's
one of those things where you go, you know, you
can write it and try to put them together and
hope it fits, or you can write it as a two -piece
thing and hope that it works as two separate
songs, and it did. And, of course, you go back
to the way it was played. If you haven't heard
it... My Morning Jacket, there's an album called
The Green Album. Yes. And My Morning Jacket doing,
you know, Brothers and Our World. It's stunning.
It sounds to me, it sounds like a Beatles recording.
It sounds like something that could have been
on Revolver or, I mean, and I'm talking about
the performance, not necessarily the songs, although
it's... It's a great surprise when you hear somebody
performed in a way that just makes it brand new
and really exciting for the creator. And Jim
James really did that for me, I mean, with Morning
Jacket. And one last holiday -related question
here, because you did bring it up in one of your
other answers, as you also wrote the music for
The Muppet Christmas Carol. However, in this
instance, you worked with Brian Henson, who made
his directorial debut on that film. Given your
work with Jim in the past and your connection
to the family and all the other Muppet performers
through the years, what were the similarities
and differences between working with Jim and
Brian? Well, you know, Brian had always been
a part of the Henson experience for me. I mean,
he worked on the early projects in various capacities.
I mean, he just, it's in his DNA. And the fact
is, and there are differences. I mean, it's like
there was a focus and an intensity to Brian,
you know, and Jim was very kind of laid back
and, you know, play a song for Jim. I remember,
for example, played I'm Going to Go Back There
Someday for him, a song that was not called for
in the script, and Jim was like, oh, my, oh,
it's pretty. It was so watered off. It was like,
that's the way Jim said no. I think Brian would
have gone, it doesn't work. But what Brian did
with the Muppet Christmas Carol is still stunning
to me. And what Jim did is, of course, equally
stunning. But it felt like in some ways Brian
just, God, I mean, what a debut. You know, Jim
developed his career through the years and never
lost that playfulness or that sweetness and the
edgy humor that went with it. And Brian had those
same elements, and it seems like he did it, you
know, off the starting line. A lot of people
have said through the years that the Muppet Christmas
Carol is the best of the film Christmas carols.
I mean, just to be included with the original,
you know, the earlier films is amazing. But I
also see what they're talking about because I
think there's a heart to the Muppet Christmas
Carol that is rare. and really touching, and
it's pure Henson. It's the Henson family, the
Henson performers, you know. And you know what?
I'm just a good fit with those guys. I feel my
heart is tugged at the same place as theirs are.
Well, for the mixtapers listening tonight, if
you'd like to hear the songs we're talking about
in this discussion, be sure to visit the episode
page at myweeklymixtape .com, where I'll have
all the songs embedded in a playlist for your
listening pleasure. Now, Paul, let's pivot now
to 1979's The Muppet Movie and the soundtrack
that, once again, you played such a pivotal role
in. You had mentioned earlier that your working
relationship with Jim Henson on Emmett Otter
was kind of like the... tryout for the muppet
movie how did that pave the way for you both
to essentially up the ante in every aspect for
the first muppets theatrical film well i don't
think i'm not sure we we did any of that and
it paved me in the way or whatever like what
we did is the next sweet thing we got to do together
you know there is uh there is you know i mean
I'm hesitant. It's called the present because
it's a gift. Something about being in the moment
and involved in something that is so much fun,
so impactful on just your basic psyche. Because
when you sit down to work with the market performers
and under the leadership of Jim, You're stepping
into a world that it's impossible not to just
take big breaths and go, how did I get here?
Oh, my God, how did I get here? And in my case,
I was awash with gratitude and to be working
with Kenny. And it's interesting, you know, the
classic case of two guys that are really right
for something. Writing something is easy to sell.
What a lot of people don't know about is those
two guys sitting down and writing, for example,
the first verse of a song like Rainbow Connection,
where you just write something where at the end
of those first couple lines, you look at each
other and you go, eek, what have we done? Think
about it. Why are there so many songs about rainbows?
And what's on the other side? Rainbows are visions,
but only illusions. Rainbows have nothing to
hide. And we looked at each other and went, oh,
crap, wait a minute. Oh, now we've done it. Look
what we did. We just denied the existence of
any magic, any mystical anything other than just
an illusion, you know, to rainbows. But what
happened then is a pure gift from... the muse
or the big amigo or the universe or what, but
what happens next is Kermit sits in the next
line, walks away from the podium in a sense,
stops being the teacher or the mentor, and he
sings, so we've been told and some choose to
believe it. I know the wrong way to see. Someday
we'll find it. The rainbow connection, the lovers,
the dreamers, and me. What happens in that moment?
is he truly becomes a member of the audience
and we're sitting there and now they're telling
us it's just illusions but we will you know and
later on in the song you know who said that every
wish would be heard and answered when wished
on the morning star somebody thought of that
and someone believed it look what it's done so
far there is uh elements of a faith in there
that is very personal to me i believe that what
we dwell on We create. If I keep thinking, I'm
not going to get that job, I'm not going to get
that job, why should I bother? I'm not going
to get that job. It's like I'm absolutely giving
the universe my plans for this immediate future
as opposed to, wow, what's coming next? Oh, that
would be a great job. But if I don't get that,
whatever I do get is probably going to be better.
That mindset, I think, has a solid influence
on maybe in a co -creator. In my future, it's
almost like delivering your list. You pull up
to the window at a fast food place and let them
know what you want, and they give it to you.
I'm not suggesting that I am turning the universe
into a fast food window. What I'm saying is that
our intention speaks louder than we do sometimes.
And so that amazing moment in writing, Rainbow
Connection with Kenny is something that I look
back on and I go, you know what? I don't know
who else's names to put on the sheet music, but
it feels like there's a lot of energy and a lot
of brilliance hovering overhead sometimes when
you're sitting there and you're like, what am
I going to write? So you postpone it, but you
don't get to it right away. And then... When
you finally, it's like trying to remember a name.
It pops into your head. It pours out of you.
It's a really long answer. I hope that it was
somewhere close to the question you asked. Are
you kidding me? I mean, look, I have to kind
of do an aside here because I started podcasting
in 2017. And my co -host, Jay Sweet, and I had
a show for several years called Toon Styles.
And the whole time when we were building that
show and getting our feet under us and getting
this podcast thing going. I kept saying, I want
to talk to the people whose music meant something
to me. And I created a list of people that I
wanted to talk to at some point in life. And
at the top of that list was Paul Williams because
of Rainbow Connection. This is the song that
I danced with my mom to when I was still in preschool.
She would put the record on because it was my
album. The Muppet movie was one of the first
albums my parents bought me. And I remember vividly
walking over and dancing with her to that song,
to the whole soundtrack. But Rainbow Connection
was the one that always resonated most with us.
So fast forward many years down the road. And
in 2005, my wife and I got married. And my mom
said, whatever you do, if you play Kermit the
Frog for our mother -son dance, I'll never be
able to make it through. And I said, don't worry,
Ma. I promise you Kermit the Frog will not start.
our mother -son dance. And I was very honest
about that because what I did was being an audio
engineer is I took Kenny Loggins' version of
the Rainbow Connection and I played the first
few lines of the song. And she whispered in my
ear and she says, okay, very good, Brian. She
goes, because if I heard Kermit, I would have
lost it. Right at the end of the half of the
verse that you talked about where it went into
Kermit walking away from the podium. I actually
crossfaded the two songs and had Kermit finish
the song. And I'm literally, I'm welling up right
now talking about it because this song just means
so much to me and so much to my mom. And she's
still here. She's going to listen to this episode.
And I really don't have an end to that. But this
interview means so much to me. Let me tell you,
that's what I call a heart payment. Because it's
like when I hear a story like that about you
and your mom, and then the fact that it was a
part of your wedding and all, that means I was
there in some way. I mean, what a gift to return
to me to share that. So on behalf of Kenny Asher
and I, and on behalf of Kermit, thanks for the
invitation. Thanks for taking us to the party.
And thanks for letting me see your heart. That's
all about heart. My minister gets very, very
passionate and touched by things when he's speaking.
His name is Jim Terrell. And every now and then
he gets that thing in his throat where he just
can't make a sound. It's like, and he'll wait
until he can actually get it out. And he always
says, God's punctuation. So that little thing
in your throat, when you're touched and all of
a sudden your throat tightens up and you can't
speak, that's evidence of a big, big open heart.
And maybe it's God's punctuation. I refer to
the big amigo as the big amigo because it's a
very friendly presence. I'm 34 years sober, so
part of us getting sober is finding a higher
power. of our own understanding. And I always
said, I don't understand my higher power, but
I don't understand electricity either, but I
use it. It lights up my life and the same thing
with my faith. So thanks for sharing that. That's
a big deal to me. Well, because I've said all
of that, I have a lot of questions about this
song. I've waited 45 years to ask. So the first
one is, when you were in the studio, And Jim
Henson recorded this vocal track using Kermit's
voice. What was your initial reaction to hearing
this song, hearing your lyrics, your and Kenny's
creation come out through Kermit? Well, I produced
the album. So I was in the studio with Jim and
Jim walked up and he sang it beautifully, but
something was missing. It fell away. And I can't
even tell you what it was. But it was a guy named
Gary Elmer had a great little studio where we
recorded. And Jim was just at the microphone
singing. And somewhere along the line, I don't
know if I suggested it. I don't know that he
suggested it. I think it was me. But I'm not
sure that he got Kermit. And he brought Kermit
in and sat down. with a mic in front of him,
but he had Kermit, and he sang it in basically
one take. It just went, lay me down, please,
Lord, that is, that's magic. And here's what
I think about today instead of then. I think
that it's very possible that the vocal to the
first one was exactly the same as the vocal to
the second one. But what happened is when you
cast it as Kermit and you see Kermit, your heart
responds, or better yet, my heart responded at
that moment to everything Kermit meant to me
and means to all of us. And to hear Kermit delivering
that exact same performance. Might have just
been the difference. In other words, I think
that Jim needed to sing it better. Perhaps I
needed to listen more lovingly. Well, the follow
up on that question, you did appear in the Muppet
movie in the bar scene as the piano player. I'm
curious, were you on set the day that Jim performed
Rainbow Connection as Kermit for the movie? Were
you on set the whole time or? On set was that
big tank of it, all that water and everything.
And Jim was underneath that in like a little
bubble, you know, a tank with his arm up through,
you know, what the Muppet performers go through
to deliver the amazingly textured and layered
performances that they do is just, I mean, God,
it's amazing. They have serious back issues,
many of them, shoulders and whatever. But no,
I was not there for that. And I think I was probably
on set for probably a couple of days is all.
I mean, I don't remember being around for most
of it. And that's not uncommon for me. I think
it's, you know, you... You know, you're off doing
the next thing. You know, I'm booked to go back
and play the piano player and steal the movie.
And so it was great and all, but I remember seeing
it the first time with the camera coming in from,
you know, the great overhead shot down into the
swamp and all and Kenny's beautiful strings and
the like and just going, wow, you know. But also,
you know, I scored. Kenny and I wrote the songs
together, and as soon as we'd done the songs
and the movie was shot and cut, it was time to
score the movie. Kenny was going to score the
movie and do all that beautiful music underneath.
And Kenny's wife had a baby, and he went, he
sat in front of the moviola for a couple days,
and he went, you know what? I've got a brand
new baby at home. It's where I'm supposed to
be. I cannot stop thinking about that. And it
was like Jim and I both went, go, go. And he
slid over and I sat down and started out with
the very first cue. And I just, I wrote the,
you know, all the background music and all based
on mostly what we did. I think all along the
way, you know, you kind of get into like what's
doing, doing what's right for the piece. And
then you go away and then you come back and it's
changed a little more and the sound effects are
put in there and all. And it's just, it seemed
the first time I saw it with an audience and
it was absolutely finished. I was like, wow,
Jim Hansen. Wow. So I have to ask, the song ended
up hitting number 25 on the U .S. Billboard Hot
100 and number 14 on Australia's Kent Music Report.
How did you, Kenneth, and Jim react to that news
that Rainbow Connection was a top 40 hit? Well,
we loved it. We loved it and was obviously very,
very excited. But I think that was absolutely
gravy to know that. Away from the film, the song
had a life. We didn't know how much of a life
it was going to have. And, you know, I recorded
it with Willie Nelson, a duet with Willie that
was like, God, like a childhood dream come true
for me. Just like, oh, my God. One of my favorite
voices in the history of voices has got to be
Willie Nelson, you know. But all the fabulous
people that assigned me to do it with Jason Mraz.
But, you know, it was, again, there's something
about the now. You work on it. And a lot of that
emotion that you're talking about, of just the
gratitude for how exciting it is to see the success,
a lot of that I'm getting right now. I mean,
it's like I've still got to, you know, you talk
about ASCAP. The American Society of Composers,
Authors, and Publishers is a million members.
We license and collect the royalties for our
membership. We're 110 years old. It's a full
-time job. But I'm also still writing. I'm doing
Pan's Labyrinth right now with Guillermo del
Toro. I just wrote all the lyrics for that. Gustavo
Santaolalla's music is amazing. And it's Jeremy
Hunger writing the book based on Guillermo's
script. And it's just... I mean, it's headed
for London first, and then back into New York,
and it's, you know, J .J. Abrams producing, so
it's real, you know. And I love the work. I'm
writing with a group called Portugal the Man
a lot, you know, and I love Portugal the Man.
John Gourley and all the guys are like family.
So I stay busy, and I've got, you know, a great
family, two great kids. Two great stepkids as
well and four grandchildren. And I live on airplanes.
I get to see them all. Well, I feel bad going
back to Rainbow Connection. I have one other
question for this one, if you don't mind. But
the song was also used in Disney's 2011 movie,
The Muppets, as both the Muppets lounge act version
as well as the grand finale to the movie. Were
you involved in any capacity with that or just
the initial songwriter? My involvement in that
is, I mean, I had no involvement in choosing
it. I was grateful that they did. I had no involvement
in using it the ways they did twice in the film,
and I'm grateful for the way they did. And I
have a continuing relationship around the Muppets
with Disney that is... a really good relationship
and i mean and talk about being uh you're not
giving up your fan card my you know i i i saw
it at bambi you know i mean i uh the snow white
and the seven dwarfs was it was like what talk
about a cinematic history that is royalty absolute
royalty and and to have a relationship with disney
is pretty wonderful Now, talking about the Muppet
movie soundtrack as a whole, because we did spend
a lot of time on the Rainbow Connection, but
there's so many amazing songs on this soundtrack
that are such a huge part of my childhood. It
seems like every song in the movie kind of shined
a spotlight on a different character in some
facet. Moving Right Along was for Fozzie. Never
Before, Never Again was for Miss Piggy. I Hope
That Something Better Comes Along was for Rolf.
I'm Going to Go Back There Someday for Gonzo.
And Can You Picture That for The Electric Mayhem.
Now, unlike Emmett Otter, you already knew the
Muppet characters because of your involvement
with the Muppet show. So did it make it easier
or more challenging to write these songs, having
already known the characters through the Muppet
show? You know, the fact is, before I did the
Muppet show, I had a relationship with those
characters. I loved them and I loved. I loved
the depth of the characters because Kermit and
Gonzo, for example, Kermit is like the Jimmy
Stewart of... He's every man. He's every frog,
you know. And then Gonzo is this innocent that
also has, you know, just the wisdom of a Yoda.
I mean, there is... And Gonzo is a landlocked
bird. And there's something about... Gonzo, as
a landlocked bird, that just, you know, I'm an
old skydiver. I made 100 jumps before I quit,
and I used to love free fall. I used to love
relative work with, you know, I jumped with the
Golden Knights and made a seven -man diamond
that I fired out of for the Circus of the Stars.
So I love the freedom of being in the air like
that. There's a limit to it. I mean, we got 80
seconds of free fall with the Knights or 60 seconds.
and civilian jumps, but so I've got this connection.
And there's that wonderful scene in the desert
when they break down on their way to Hollywood
and Kermit's kind of beating himself up about
it. But Kenny and I are going, look at this.
Gonzo's sitting out there looking at that sky.
You look at each other and it's like, what's
he thinking? It's like if he's truly a landlocked
bird, does that look familiar to him? We wrote
the song. And we played it for Jim. And you remember
the imitation I did of him rejecting a song earlier?
That's exactly where that happened. Because we
showed it to him, and I sang it, and he was like,
oh, so pretty. And then kind of just left. That's
it. It was not listed as a place for a song.
I guess there's not going to go a song there.
But a couple days later, James shows up, and
he goes, listen, what do you think of this? What
if Gonzo buys a bunch of helium balloons for
Camilla, his also landlocked bird girlfriend,
and he experiences it, it takes him up into the
air, and he experiences flight, but instead of
being scared, he's, well, the term I would use
now is awakened. that his spirit is awakened
to who he really is, where he really belongs.
And that gives a meaning to the song later on
that is already there, but to somebody watching
the movie, you see the trigger to it. That's
what created that opportunity for that emotion
to be expressed by Gonzo. That, in a story, in
about three sentences or four, It says volumes
about who Jim Henson was, I think. Life is a
movie. Write your own ending. Keep believing.
Keep pretending. We've done just what we've set
out to do. Thanks to the lovers, the dreamers,
and you. Was the Magic Store the last song you
guys wrote for the film? Because the callback
to the Rainbow Connection, as well as the way
it plays out at the end of that movie, I mean,
the hair on my arms just stood up reading the
lyrics alone. It couldn't have been the more
perfect choice. We felt really good about it.
We knew that we wanted to, there was a listing
for, first of all, there's the whole beautiful
ending where they build a rainbow and it all
falls apart and there's an explosion and then
the universe provides a real rainbow. Wow, I
just got you. I feel like Jim just put his arm
around me. And so. It was a reprise of Rainbow,
but we wanted to do something more. The thing
is, sometimes you need to button the lesson.
You need to remind people of what they've just
seen, because with all that travel and all this
stuff that's gone on and everything, and this
movie, what has happened? The line is, life's
like a movie. Write your own ending. But also
the whole message is keep believing, keep pretending.
Well, the keep believing and keep pretending
is a callback to who said that every wish would
be heard. And if somebody thought of that and
someone believed it, and this is a footnote in
a sense that reminds us of the truth of that
probability that that can happen again, that
somebody thought of it. And someone believed
it. Life's like a movie, right? Keep believing,
keep pretending. We've done just what we set
out to do. Thanks to the lovers, the dreamers,
you. And that and you totally now puts Jim, or
Kermit rather, back in front of the audience
and reminds them that they have all been a party.
to the success you're witnessing. My entire career,
incidentally, has been like that. When I get
calls, you know, from the guys of Daft Punk who
saw Phantom of the Paradise 20 times and then
decide that they're going to start a career as
a rock band called Daft Punk, and then they wind
up, you know, coming to me and I write a couple
songs and they ask me to sing one of them, and
we win the Grammy for Album of the Year, that
entire thing is almost... It's almost a sidecar
to what the Muppet movie promises, what Jim promised
that Kenny and I think we're able to say fairly
clearly, hopefully. And if not, it's just a great
movie. A great bunch of people to work with.
A great bunch of furries. My favorite furries
in the world. Well, Paul, to say that I'm grateful
for your time today would be the understatement
of a lifetime. So instead, I'm simply going to
thank you for the decades of sing -alongs, dance
parties, and loving memories that your music
has brought my family over the years. This has
truly been an honor of a lifetime for me, and
I thank you for joining me on my weekly mixtape.
We're living through some really interesting,
scary times and all. So we need that big open
heart from you and the people that love your
podcast. And I'm really grateful and honored
to have been a part of it, my friend. Now, I
want to take this moment to personally thank
Mr. Desmond Child for helping arrange this sit
down, because words cannot describe how grateful
I am for that. And I'm also grateful for each
and every My Weekly Mixtape listener, whether
you listen each and every week to the show or
just the episodes that suit your musical tastes.
I appreciate the continued support over the last
nearly two years. And remember, you can find
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time, enjoy the tunes.