WEBVTT 00:00:11.219 --> 00:00:14.140 Welcome to My Weekly Mixtape, a podcast that 00:00:14.140 --> 00:00:17.320 takes the classic mixtape approach to building 00:00:17.320 --> 00:00:20.019 a modern playlist. I'm your host, Brian Colburn. 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:24.079 There are simply no words to express how grateful 00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:26.859 I am to welcome tonight's guest. He's written 00:00:26.859 --> 00:00:30.120 hits for Three Dog Night, The Carpenters, Barbra 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:32.960 Streisand, The Monkees, and Daft Punk, just to 00:00:32.960 --> 00:00:35.859 name a few. He's appeared on screen in Smokey 00:00:35.859 --> 00:00:38.700 and the Bandit, The Muppet Movie, Oliver Stone's 00:00:38.700 --> 00:00:41.700 The Doors, and many others. And along with that, 00:00:41.859 --> 00:00:44.840 he's the president of the ASCAP Board of Directors, 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:48.399 an essential resource for songwriters, composers, 00:00:48.759 --> 00:00:52.259 and music publishers. But most importantly, for 00:00:52.259 --> 00:00:55.119 me at least, he is the songwriter responsible 00:00:55.119 --> 00:00:58.780 for my favorite song of all time, The Rainbow 00:00:58.780 --> 00:01:02.479 Connection. It's my absolute honor to welcome 00:01:02.479 --> 00:01:05.819 the one and only Paul Williams to my weekly mixtape. 00:01:05.980 --> 00:01:08.700 Thank you for joining me, Paul. Thank you, Brian. 00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:11.019 I really appreciate it. You know, the one great 00:01:11.019 --> 00:01:13.359 thing about what we do for a living, we don't 00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:15.319 have to give up our fan card. I mean, you don't 00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:17.819 give up yours, I don't give up mine. So when 00:01:17.819 --> 00:01:21.560 you talk about the Muppets, you're talking about 00:01:21.560 --> 00:01:25.819 Jim Henson or Brian Henson and the Henson family 00:01:25.819 --> 00:01:32.040 and some of my dearest friends, Gonzo and Kermit 00:01:32.040 --> 00:01:35.420 and the gang. So this is... It's something I 00:01:35.420 --> 00:01:38.280 love talking about people that I love and whatever 00:01:38.280 --> 00:01:42.459 Gonzo is. Well, before we get to the good stuff, 00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:45.060 I always like to start by asking my first time 00:01:45.060 --> 00:01:49.079 guests, what does the word mixtape mean to you? 00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:54.280 Ah, I remember my daughter when she was in high 00:01:54.280 --> 00:01:58.420 school, had just been accepted at Tulane. And 00:01:58.420 --> 00:02:01.980 she said, Dad, I asked her about something when 00:02:01.980 --> 00:02:05.140 she was listening to. And she said, well, my 00:02:05.140 --> 00:02:08.419 mixtape is, and she had everything from, you 00:02:08.419 --> 00:02:11.439 know, from reggae to Sarah Vaughan to, you know, 00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:15.210 and it's like, and. there was an immediate reassurance 00:02:15.210 --> 00:02:19.969 that I had a culturally diverse daughter. But 00:02:19.969 --> 00:02:23.370 beyond culturally diverse, it's, I would say, 00:02:23.430 --> 00:02:27.770 genre diverse and time frame as far as point 00:02:27.770 --> 00:02:32.490 of creation, curiosity, which was wonderful to 00:02:32.490 --> 00:02:35.789 hear. So it's like the idea that she could have 00:02:35.789 --> 00:02:41.310 a... a hank williams record and then and then 00:02:41.310 --> 00:02:44.770 after listening to that listening to uh edith 00:02:44.770 --> 00:02:47.129 piaf or something you kind of go wow and then 00:02:47.129 --> 00:02:49.889 jump into daft punk because you got to pay attention 00:02:49.889 --> 00:02:54.530 to dad once in a while Well, there are so many 00:02:54.530 --> 00:02:56.810 areas of your career that we could dive into, 00:02:56.889 --> 00:02:59.449 but tonight we're going to hone in on two specific 00:02:59.449 --> 00:03:02.189 soundtracks that you played a major role in. 00:03:02.370 --> 00:03:04.509 Now, given the time of year it is, I think it's 00:03:04.509 --> 00:03:08.030 only fitting that we start with what is, in my 00:03:08.030 --> 00:03:11.930 humble opinion, the greatest Christmas special 00:03:11.930 --> 00:03:15.550 ever, that being Emmett Otter's Jug Band Christmas. 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:19.419 This was the special that I grew up watching 00:03:19.419 --> 00:03:22.180 year in and year out, and my wife and I have 00:03:22.180 --> 00:03:24.080 been lucky enough to be able to continue that 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:27.080 tradition with our children each and every Christmas 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:30.340 Eve. Paul, when Emmett Otter was in its earliest 00:03:30.340 --> 00:03:33.800 stages of development, what were you working 00:03:33.800 --> 00:03:35.979 with when you were composing these songs? Was 00:03:35.979 --> 00:03:39.240 it just the script, or did you have an idea of 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:41.500 what these characters would already look and 00:03:41.500 --> 00:03:47.219 sound like? Well, first of all, where the title 00:03:47.219 --> 00:03:49.719 appeared before me for the first time was on 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:52.900 a book that Jim Henson handed me in England. 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:55.960 I went over to do The Muppet Show. I was on the 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:58.979 first season. I think it was like the fifth episode 00:03:58.979 --> 00:04:01.099 or something, fifth or eighth, I don't know. 00:04:01.340 --> 00:04:04.539 But it was the first season of The Muppet Show, 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:07.560 and I was already a huge fan of The Muppets. 00:04:07.560 --> 00:04:11.379 I mean, all the way back to Jim with his slinkies 00:04:11.379 --> 00:04:15.400 on. I loved them. On the road, my band and I 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:19.379 watched Sesame Street probably, I mean, more 00:04:19.379 --> 00:04:24.160 than the evening news in those days. I always 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:26.199 joke that there were members of my band that 00:04:26.199 --> 00:04:28.579 learned how to use a fork watching Sesame Street. 00:04:29.899 --> 00:04:32.759 So I was a big, big fan. And when I went over 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:36.620 to do the Muppet show, it was like stepping onto, 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:39.540 you know, I felt, you know, in M &R's Jugman 00:04:39.540 --> 00:04:42.850 Christmas, the guys have a treehouse. And I felt 00:04:42.850 --> 00:04:45.490 like when I walk on the set of The Muppet Show, 00:04:45.610 --> 00:04:48.170 I felt like I was in a treehouse with a gang 00:04:48.170 --> 00:04:51.870 that I belonged to. I had never felt a more immediate 00:04:51.870 --> 00:04:55.649 connection to a group of performers. The Muppet 00:04:55.649 --> 00:04:59.449 performers were like instant family. You know, 00:04:59.449 --> 00:05:02.069 we treated each other with the same respect and 00:05:02.069 --> 00:05:07.209 disrespect humorously. It was great. I had the 00:05:07.209 --> 00:05:10.689 best time I think the gym did and the whole gang 00:05:10.689 --> 00:05:13.870 did. It's just an amazing environment to work 00:05:13.870 --> 00:05:16.689 in. But he handed me a book and he said, you 00:05:16.689 --> 00:05:19.569 know what, this is an amazing little story by 00:05:19.569 --> 00:05:23.389 the Hobans. We're going to do a one -hour special 00:05:23.389 --> 00:05:26.550 based on this. It's called Emmett Otter's Jug 00:05:26.550 --> 00:05:29.569 Band Christmas. And I would really like for you 00:05:29.569 --> 00:05:35.379 to write the songs for it. I mean, I was thrilled, 00:05:35.459 --> 00:05:38.480 of course, first of all, to have him want to 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:42.899 do something specifically with me. Okay. When 00:05:42.899 --> 00:05:44.939 you work with the Muppets, you act like a Muppet 00:05:44.939 --> 00:05:49.620 every now and then. So what existed was, first 00:05:49.620 --> 00:05:52.819 of all, the book, and then Jerry Jewell's script 00:05:52.819 --> 00:05:58.410 was the next thing I was handed. There are actually 00:05:58.410 --> 00:06:00.850 some of the titles of the songs are in the book. 00:06:00.990 --> 00:06:04.230 There's a song about the bathing suit. I mean, 00:06:04.250 --> 00:06:06.370 there's no lyrics, there's no song, but there's 00:06:06.370 --> 00:06:10.730 just, you know, Emma and Amal were rowing down 00:06:10.730 --> 00:06:13.350 the river, whatever, singing the bathing suit 00:06:13.350 --> 00:06:17.629 that Grandma Otter wore, or a title that was 00:06:17.629 --> 00:06:21.290 closed. But, you know, I went off and wrote the 00:06:21.290 --> 00:06:24.750 songs. I approach writing anything where there's 00:06:24.750 --> 00:06:27.600 a story and characters. As an actor. I mean, 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:29.480 I started out as an actor. I couldn't make a 00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:33.720 living at it. And I evolved in, you know, one 00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:37.220 door slams sometimes on your fingers. So you 00:06:37.220 --> 00:06:39.699 open another one. And the one that I opened, 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:42.439 that was open for me, was to write songs. So 00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:44.259 all of a sudden, I'm sitting looking at these 00:06:44.259 --> 00:06:47.639 characters. There are two goals in writing songs 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:51.360 for a show like Emmett Otter or The Muppet Christmas 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:55.829 Carol or any story with characters. is first 00:06:55.829 --> 00:06:58.230 of all you want to you don't want to bog things 00:06:58.230 --> 00:07:02.089 down for a song you want to keep the story rolling 00:07:02.089 --> 00:07:05.870 so it's like advance the story and let's let's 00:07:05.870 --> 00:07:08.110 learn something about the the inner life of the 00:07:08.110 --> 00:07:11.370 characters so those are my two goals so i can 00:07:11.370 --> 00:07:14.069 write a song like that like a hole in the bathtub 00:07:15.740 --> 00:07:19.500 or in the wash tub rather, that advances the 00:07:19.500 --> 00:07:21.680 story, you know, like everything is super in 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:24.000 life, you know, head full of good thoughts, belly 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:26.300 full of grub, you know, money in your pocket 00:07:26.300 --> 00:07:29.699 when there ain't no hole in the wash tub. And 00:07:29.699 --> 00:07:32.439 at the same token, write a song, you know, like 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:35.379 when the river meets the sea, which speaks to 00:07:35.379 --> 00:07:38.879 kind of maybe an inner faith. You know, where 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:42.279 Ma and Emmett are about the fact that they've 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:46.040 lost the potter and he's on the other side of 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:48.279 the veil. So there's a little inner life there 00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:52.319 and all. But basically, the stylings of the songs 00:07:52.319 --> 00:07:56.279 is pretty much Americana. And I mean, beyond 00:07:56.279 --> 00:07:59.180 my knowledge of Stephen Foster or whatever, I 00:07:59.180 --> 00:08:01.639 mean, that was not the genre that I had ever 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:05.160 really, really written for. And I didn't really 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:08.519 research it. What I wrote came out of the characters, 00:08:08.620 --> 00:08:11.220 and I was told after the fact, you've been writing 00:08:11.220 --> 00:08:14.740 basically Americana music in that with your words 00:08:14.740 --> 00:08:19.079 and music to songs like When the River Meets 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:21.699 the Sea and the like. So it's a long, long answer 00:08:21.699 --> 00:08:25.620 to a really good question. Well, how much was 00:08:25.620 --> 00:08:28.639 Jim Henson involved during the songwriting process? 00:08:28.819 --> 00:08:31.480 Because I'm sure he had a vision for what would 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:34.100 be shown in the film during the performances 00:08:34.100 --> 00:08:37.419 of these songs. Well, he had a script about what 00:08:37.419 --> 00:08:41.460 was going on, the songs I wrote, and he, thank 00:08:41.460 --> 00:08:44.679 God, loved them. One of the things that was most 00:08:44.679 --> 00:08:47.360 unique about Jim was that he was not somebody 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:51.080 who micromanaged the people that he worked with. 00:08:51.659 --> 00:08:55.519 I think that applies to all of the Muppet performers. 00:08:56.340 --> 00:09:01.039 It was a classic moment when I was brought in 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:04.379 to do the songs for the Muppet movie. And I think 00:09:04.379 --> 00:09:06.840 in a lot of ways Emmett Otter's Jug Band Christmas 00:09:06.840 --> 00:09:09.899 was kind of an audition for me to see if I'd 00:09:09.899 --> 00:09:12.419 be the right guy for the Muppet movie. I said 00:09:12.419 --> 00:09:15.179 yes, but I also decided to bring Kenny Asher 00:09:15.179 --> 00:09:17.940 in because his music is more sophisticated than 00:09:17.940 --> 00:09:20.899 mine. So beautiful. We write words and music 00:09:20.899 --> 00:09:23.940 at the same time, so we do both. I'm basically 00:09:23.940 --> 00:09:27.600 lyrics, he's basically music and all. One of 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:29.460 the first things we did is we met at my house 00:09:29.460 --> 00:09:31.879 in the Hollywood Hills with Jim and Jerry Jewell, 00:09:31.980 --> 00:09:34.779 the scriptwriter. I think Frank Oz was there 00:09:34.779 --> 00:09:38.379 and talked about what the Muppet movie would 00:09:38.379 --> 00:09:41.539 be about, a road picture of frogs discovered 00:09:41.539 --> 00:09:44.659 in the blah, blah, blah, blah. And walking Jim 00:09:44.659 --> 00:09:47.500 to his car, and I've told this story a lot, walking 00:09:47.500 --> 00:09:50.320 him to his car, I said, you know, Jim, this is 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:52.399 a big deal for you guys. I know that, and for 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:55.570 me too. And we're not going to surprise you when 00:09:55.570 --> 00:09:59.169 we're working on the songs. I want you to see 00:09:59.169 --> 00:10:02.070 what we're doing. So make sure we're headed in 00:10:02.070 --> 00:10:04.210 the right direction. And he said, oh, Paulie, 00:10:04.210 --> 00:10:08.389 I'm sure you'd say Paulie then. Oh, Paul, I don't 00:10:08.389 --> 00:10:10.669 need that. Yeah, I'll hear him in the studio 00:10:10.669 --> 00:10:14.490 when you're recording. And I was like, did I 00:10:14.490 --> 00:10:19.370 hear that right? He was, in fact, I think so 00:10:19.370 --> 00:10:22.759 secure with the choices that he made. And I think 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:24.919 he was smart enough to realize there's a certain 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:28.179 point where you don't try to guide somebody, 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:31.340 you know, towards a very specific goal beyond. 00:10:31.500 --> 00:10:35.519 That's the point on the horizon that we're sailing 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:38.820 to. I trust you to find your way to it in your 00:10:38.820 --> 00:10:41.740 own way, and it's going to be appropriate to 00:10:41.740 --> 00:10:45.440 the story and the characters and all. But I think 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:48.519 the other thing that he was capable of was being 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:52.519 totally surprised by what he heard. and not just 00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:56.980 rejecting it based on the fact that it was not 00:10:56.980 --> 00:11:01.019 in his original vision. I think part of the joy 00:11:01.019 --> 00:11:06.059 of being a creative artist for Jim, and it's 00:11:06.059 --> 00:11:09.600 a supposition on my part, but I think I saw the 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:12.500 way he laughed at stuff that Dave Goldsch would 00:11:12.500 --> 00:11:15.700 do with Gonzo or some of the other characters 00:11:15.700 --> 00:11:21.009 or Jerry Nelson. And he was the first... observer 00:11:21.009 --> 00:11:24.830 of of some great performances and i think i think 00:11:24.830 --> 00:11:27.789 that kept him solidly in that place where he 00:11:27.789 --> 00:11:31.850 allowed the world of of his creators to surprise 00:11:31.850 --> 00:11:35.710 him well then i want to kind of hone in on that 00:11:35.710 --> 00:11:38.690 for a second because in emmet otter there are 00:11:38.690 --> 00:11:42.070 instrumental moments throughout the show that 00:11:42.070 --> 00:11:46.070 are kind of driven by the songs talking about 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:50.080 carrots the dancing horse or the acrobatic squirrels 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:53.200 was there anything written in the script that 00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:56.059 would say we're looking for whimsical we're looking 00:11:56.059 --> 00:11:59.360 for circus we're looking or or did you just kind 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:01.860 of read the script and those sounds just popped 00:12:01.860 --> 00:12:05.059 up in your head I don't remember the specifics. 00:12:05.220 --> 00:12:07.399 I mean, it might have said, you know, like a 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:12.539 somber mood, you know, like the candle lights 00:12:12.539 --> 00:12:15.019 are blown out, you know, it's the end of the 00:12:15.019 --> 00:12:19.940 day and there might be like a ballad to come, 00:12:20.059 --> 00:12:24.399 whatever. But, you know, he was not, I mean, 00:12:24.440 --> 00:12:27.100 if I could read that script and not know what 00:12:27.100 --> 00:12:29.980 that should feel like, I was the wrong guy for 00:12:29.980 --> 00:12:33.799 the job, you know. But the other thing is that 00:12:33.799 --> 00:12:37.019 there are several things that I recorded and 00:12:37.019 --> 00:12:40.960 wrote and recorded and produced through the years 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:43.759 where I was on the road with my band. I had a 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:49.500 fantastic road band, and they knew me so well. 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:53.230 I mean, that's like literally with... I don't 00:12:53.230 --> 00:12:54.830 know if you're a fan of Phantom of the Paradise, 00:12:55.070 --> 00:12:57.110 but there's all these different kinds of music 00:12:57.110 --> 00:12:59.269 in there. And I would go in with a chord sheet 00:12:59.269 --> 00:13:02.629 and a lyric sheet that I had on the road. We'd 00:13:02.629 --> 00:13:04.809 do like Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday gigs. 00:13:05.029 --> 00:13:07.029 Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, we'd sneak into 00:13:07.029 --> 00:13:10.350 a studio. A lot of times it was Sigma Sound in 00:13:10.350 --> 00:13:14.730 Philadelphia. I pass out the chord sheets, and 00:13:14.730 --> 00:13:16.929 this is something I just wrote, and I'm like, 00:13:16.950 --> 00:13:27.190 okay, so it's... And they start playing, you 00:13:27.190 --> 00:13:30.090 know. On Phantom of the Paradise, it was a matter 00:13:30.090 --> 00:13:32.590 of sitting down and going... Okay, Beach Books. 00:13:34.350 --> 00:13:48.490 They delivered amazing performances immediately. 00:13:49.049 --> 00:13:52.590 And it was a creative relationship that was just, 00:13:52.710 --> 00:13:54.769 I mean, I don't know that I could have done any 00:13:54.769 --> 00:13:59.549 of the scores. And also on Emmett Otter. All 00:13:59.549 --> 00:14:02.009 that background music was, we just, there was 00:14:02.009 --> 00:14:05.169 no click track. There was no, it was, we would 00:14:05.169 --> 00:14:09.610 screen, you know, like that first scene with 00:14:09.610 --> 00:14:13.750 the, I'm trying to remember what the opening 00:14:13.750 --> 00:14:17.450 cue was. But we'd look at it, and I'd sing or 00:14:17.450 --> 00:14:21.990 play what I wanted, you know, for the guys. Guitar. 00:14:28.690 --> 00:14:31.429 Maybe, you know, and the guys would play it. 00:14:31.570 --> 00:14:34.730 So we're, you know, with, all right, roll tape, 00:14:34.889 --> 00:14:37.590 and we would play a cue, go on to the next cue. 00:14:38.309 --> 00:14:42.580 And that's the way I worked on that. Then you 00:14:42.580 --> 00:14:45.820 find me later on with things like the Anne from 00:14:45.820 --> 00:14:48.659 Burt Reynolds, or even the Muppet movie, where 00:14:48.659 --> 00:14:55.820 it's... I'm sitting there with a great orchestrator 00:14:55.820 --> 00:15:00.500 next to me, and with that orchestrator, I'm hearing... 00:15:00.500 --> 00:15:03.840 I'm hearing arco basses there, and I'm hearing 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:07.720 flutes at the top, maybe with high strings. Every 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:10.139 now and then he'd turn to me and he'd say, congratulations. 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:13.480 You just killed a horn player because a horn 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:16.480 player can't get into that register. Because 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:19.899 I have no training, so I don't know what I'm 00:15:19.899 --> 00:15:23.940 doing. But it's like the bumblebee cannot fly. 00:15:24.039 --> 00:15:27.480 It's been scientifically proven that the wings 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:31.159 aren't big enough. But the bumblebee doesn't 00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:34.059 know that he can't fly, so he does. The end of 00:15:34.059 --> 00:15:37.179 the movie being there, Chauncey Gardner does 00:15:37.179 --> 00:15:40.879 not sink in the pond because he's so naive that 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:43.919 he thinks he can walk on water, so he does. I 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:46.580 thought I could do music when I was asked to, 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:50.629 so I did. Well, now you are talking about your 00:15:50.629 --> 00:15:53.769 band playing these songs. There's no denying, 00:15:54.090 --> 00:15:56.289 even though they're the antagonists in Emmett 00:15:56.289 --> 00:15:59.110 Otter, the impact that the Riverbottom Nightmare 00:15:59.110 --> 00:16:02.190 Band had on both the special itself and then 00:16:02.190 --> 00:16:05.529 the hearts of us who grew up watching it. That 00:16:05.529 --> 00:16:08.789 song was obviously either inspired or influenced 00:16:08.789 --> 00:16:11.129 by the psychedelic rock scene of the decade, 00:16:11.230 --> 00:16:14.029 like Iron Butterfly, Jimi Hendrix, The Doors. 00:16:14.029 --> 00:16:17.090 Was that how you presented it to the band? You 00:16:17.090 --> 00:16:20.549 know, the fact that I write certain kinds of 00:16:20.549 --> 00:16:23.549 music, for example, you know, when I first started 00:16:23.549 --> 00:16:25.509 out, I was a very middle -of -the -road writer. 00:16:25.590 --> 00:16:28.470 I loved, you know, the Laurel Canyon crowd and 00:16:28.470 --> 00:16:30.289 wished I was a part of it, but I was writing 00:16:30.289 --> 00:16:33.509 for, you know, thank God, the Carpenters and 00:16:33.509 --> 00:16:36.570 Three Dog Night and amazing bands and amazing 00:16:36.570 --> 00:16:39.789 musicians, but not really the, you know, the 00:16:39.789 --> 00:16:43.750 Metallica crowd. Incidentally, I saw Metallica 00:16:43.750 --> 00:16:47.610 live at the Library of Congress. when Elton and 00:16:47.610 --> 00:16:51.769 Bernie were given the Gershwin Prize. And I had 00:16:51.769 --> 00:16:55.690 never seen Metallica, and I somehow missed that 00:16:55.690 --> 00:16:57.970 the opening band was Metallica that I did not 00:16:57.970 --> 00:17:00.970 recognize. But I went nuts. I was, oh, my God, 00:17:01.009 --> 00:17:03.809 the guitar work, I like that. People come up, 00:17:03.870 --> 00:17:06.509 that's Metallica. I went, oh, that's Metallica? 00:17:06.769 --> 00:17:09.890 You know, it's like Michael Keaton in Starman 00:17:09.890 --> 00:17:12.349 when he tastes apple pie the first time, and 00:17:12.349 --> 00:17:17.680 he goes, that's apple pie? So there's, I mean, 00:17:17.700 --> 00:17:20.799 when I was writing for, you know, before I had 00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:22.839 any hits going, I was writing album cuts for 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:26.599 Steve Lawrence or, you know, the Peppermint Trolley 00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:29.660 or whatever. Or when I was writing for the Carpenters 00:17:29.660 --> 00:17:34.059 and the like, or Helen Reddy or Streisand, the 00:17:34.059 --> 00:17:37.500 music I was listening to was the original Delaney 00:17:37.500 --> 00:17:39.299 and Bonnie and Friends, who I was, you know, 00:17:39.299 --> 00:17:46.500 a huge fan of Poco and... My taste was much more 00:17:46.500 --> 00:17:49.960 rock and roll than what I was creating. So when 00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:53.160 I sit down and I have a chance to write for Dr. 00:17:53.500 --> 00:17:56.319 Teeth, you know, or the Riverbottom Nightmare 00:17:56.319 --> 00:18:00.099 Band, I was like, I dive in. I love it. Well, 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:02.240 the one question I want to ask you from a songwriting 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:05.700 perspective for Emmett Otter, when you were writing 00:18:05.700 --> 00:18:08.880 Our World and Brothers, the theme of those songs, 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:12.039 and I hope I'm not spoiling the ending to Emmett 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:14.339 Otter here if you haven't seen it. skip over 00:18:14.339 --> 00:18:17.420 this part but the theme of those songs are the 00:18:17.420 --> 00:18:20.400 fact that they work better together than separate 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:23.579 so when you were writing it did you write the 00:18:23.579 --> 00:18:26.460 combined version first and then break out the 00:18:26.460 --> 00:18:29.359 two other songs or did you write each song and 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:31.819 say how the heck am i supposed to put these together 00:18:31.819 --> 00:18:35.359 now you just kind of described it perfectly it 00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:40.099 had to be a The way that it came together was 00:18:40.099 --> 00:18:43.920 realizing that they had to fit at each piece. 00:18:44.140 --> 00:18:46.380 So to write two separate songs and try to do 00:18:46.380 --> 00:18:48.079 that would have been crazy. So I went, we're 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:53.220 closer now than ever before. How much alike we 00:18:53.220 --> 00:18:56.920 are. Perhaps we're long lost brothers. You know, 00:18:56.940 --> 00:19:00.359 there's love in our world and we're showing it 00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:03.140 more. We even think we're the same. You know, 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:05.980 there may be others. I wrote the second song 00:19:05.980 --> 00:19:09.339 as kind of an answer to each line of the first 00:19:09.339 --> 00:19:12.359 song. And then I got out musical scissors and 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:16.140 cut them in two and went, we're closer now than 00:19:16.140 --> 00:19:19.220 ever before. There's love in our world and we're 00:19:19.220 --> 00:19:22.480 showing it more. Our world's this. So they each 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:25.829 existed separately. and enough to be an actual 00:19:25.829 --> 00:19:30.230 song. I think that they're both equally sentimental, 00:19:30.529 --> 00:19:34.210 and it worked. I mean, it was wonderful. It's 00:19:34.210 --> 00:19:36.650 one of those things where you go, you know, you 00:19:36.650 --> 00:19:39.130 can write it and try to put them together and 00:19:39.130 --> 00:19:41.930 hope it fits, or you can write it as a two -piece 00:19:41.930 --> 00:19:43.910 thing and hope that it works as two separate 00:19:43.910 --> 00:19:47.170 songs, and it did. And, of course, you go back 00:19:47.170 --> 00:19:50.430 to the way it was played. If you haven't heard 00:19:50.430 --> 00:19:54.410 it... My Morning Jacket, there's an album called 00:19:54.410 --> 00:19:58.829 The Green Album. Yes. And My Morning Jacket doing, 00:19:59.029 --> 00:20:04.569 you know, Brothers and Our World. It's stunning. 00:20:04.710 --> 00:20:07.210 It sounds to me, it sounds like a Beatles recording. 00:20:07.390 --> 00:20:09.369 It sounds like something that could have been 00:20:09.369 --> 00:20:14.809 on Revolver or, I mean, and I'm talking about 00:20:14.809 --> 00:20:18.049 the performance, not necessarily the songs, although 00:20:18.049 --> 00:20:22.789 it's... It's a great surprise when you hear somebody 00:20:22.789 --> 00:20:26.609 performed in a way that just makes it brand new 00:20:26.609 --> 00:20:32.890 and really exciting for the creator. And Jim 00:20:32.890 --> 00:20:36.170 James really did that for me, I mean, with Morning 00:20:36.170 --> 00:20:39.730 Jacket. And one last holiday -related question 00:20:39.730 --> 00:20:41.069 here, because you did bring it up in one of your 00:20:41.069 --> 00:20:43.269 other answers, as you also wrote the music for 00:20:43.269 --> 00:20:45.720 The Muppet Christmas Carol. However, in this 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:48.019 instance, you worked with Brian Henson, who made 00:20:48.019 --> 00:20:51.539 his directorial debut on that film. Given your 00:20:51.539 --> 00:20:53.440 work with Jim in the past and your connection 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:55.700 to the family and all the other Muppet performers 00:20:55.700 --> 00:20:58.099 through the years, what were the similarities 00:20:58.099 --> 00:21:00.539 and differences between working with Jim and 00:21:00.539 --> 00:21:03.750 Brian? Well, you know, Brian had always been 00:21:03.750 --> 00:21:06.970 a part of the Henson experience for me. I mean, 00:21:06.990 --> 00:21:12.130 he worked on the early projects in various capacities. 00:21:12.490 --> 00:21:16.549 I mean, he just, it's in his DNA. And the fact 00:21:16.549 --> 00:21:19.809 is, and there are differences. I mean, it's like 00:21:19.809 --> 00:21:24.650 there was a focus and an intensity to Brian, 00:21:24.710 --> 00:21:27.950 you know, and Jim was very kind of laid back 00:21:27.950 --> 00:21:31.930 and, you know, play a song for Jim. I remember, 00:21:32.089 --> 00:21:34.869 for example, played I'm Going to Go Back There 00:21:34.869 --> 00:21:37.730 Someday for him, a song that was not called for 00:21:37.730 --> 00:21:41.809 in the script, and Jim was like, oh, my, oh, 00:21:42.049 --> 00:21:47.069 it's pretty. It was so watered off. It was like, 00:21:47.150 --> 00:21:50.069 that's the way Jim said no. I think Brian would 00:21:50.069 --> 00:21:54.089 have gone, it doesn't work. But what Brian did 00:21:54.089 --> 00:21:58.529 with the Muppet Christmas Carol is still stunning 00:21:58.529 --> 00:22:01.809 to me. And what Jim did is, of course, equally 00:22:01.809 --> 00:22:07.009 stunning. But it felt like in some ways Brian 00:22:07.009 --> 00:22:11.890 just, God, I mean, what a debut. You know, Jim 00:22:11.890 --> 00:22:15.730 developed his career through the years and never 00:22:15.730 --> 00:22:22.650 lost that playfulness or that sweetness and the 00:22:22.650 --> 00:22:26.289 edgy humor that went with it. And Brian had those 00:22:26.289 --> 00:22:29.720 same elements, and it seems like he did it, you 00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:33.099 know, off the starting line. A lot of people 00:22:33.099 --> 00:22:36.819 have said through the years that the Muppet Christmas 00:22:36.819 --> 00:22:41.359 Carol is the best of the film Christmas carols. 00:22:41.660 --> 00:22:46.680 I mean, just to be included with the original, 00:22:46.859 --> 00:22:50.460 you know, the earlier films is amazing. But I 00:22:50.460 --> 00:22:52.720 also see what they're talking about because I 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:56.460 think there's a heart to the Muppet Christmas 00:22:56.460 --> 00:23:00.460 Carol that is rare. and really touching, and 00:23:00.460 --> 00:23:04.099 it's pure Henson. It's the Henson family, the 00:23:04.099 --> 00:23:06.720 Henson performers, you know. And you know what? 00:23:06.779 --> 00:23:10.299 I'm just a good fit with those guys. I feel my 00:23:10.299 --> 00:23:13.240 heart is tugged at the same place as theirs are. 00:23:14.730 --> 00:23:16.910 Well, for the mixtapers listening tonight, if 00:23:16.910 --> 00:23:18.829 you'd like to hear the songs we're talking about 00:23:18.829 --> 00:23:21.250 in this discussion, be sure to visit the episode 00:23:21.250 --> 00:23:24.529 page at myweeklymixtape .com, where I'll have 00:23:24.529 --> 00:23:27.329 all the songs embedded in a playlist for your 00:23:27.329 --> 00:23:30.549 listening pleasure. Now, Paul, let's pivot now 00:23:30.549 --> 00:23:33.970 to 1979's The Muppet Movie and the soundtrack 00:23:33.970 --> 00:23:36.509 that, once again, you played such a pivotal role 00:23:36.509 --> 00:23:39.630 in. You had mentioned earlier that your working 00:23:39.630 --> 00:23:42.349 relationship with Jim Henson on Emmett Otter 00:23:42.349 --> 00:23:46.200 was kind of like the... tryout for the muppet 00:23:46.200 --> 00:23:49.500 movie how did that pave the way for you both 00:23:49.500 --> 00:23:53.339 to essentially up the ante in every aspect for 00:23:53.339 --> 00:23:56.920 the first muppets theatrical film well i don't 00:23:56.920 --> 00:23:59.839 think i'm not sure we we did any of that and 00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:01.319 it paved me in the way or whatever like what 00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:04.079 we did is the next sweet thing we got to do together 00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:08.480 you know there is uh there is you know i mean 00:24:09.450 --> 00:24:13.809 I'm hesitant. It's called the present because 00:24:13.809 --> 00:24:18.190 it's a gift. Something about being in the moment 00:24:18.190 --> 00:24:22.549 and involved in something that is so much fun, 00:24:22.829 --> 00:24:32.170 so impactful on just your basic psyche. Because 00:24:32.170 --> 00:24:35.130 when you sit down to work with the market performers 00:24:35.130 --> 00:24:39.430 and under the leadership of Jim, You're stepping 00:24:39.430 --> 00:24:42.230 into a world that it's impossible not to just 00:24:42.230 --> 00:24:45.829 take big breaths and go, how did I get here? 00:24:45.990 --> 00:24:51.390 Oh, my God, how did I get here? And in my case, 00:24:51.410 --> 00:24:56.269 I was awash with gratitude and to be working 00:24:56.269 --> 00:24:58.950 with Kenny. And it's interesting, you know, the 00:24:58.950 --> 00:25:03.750 classic case of two guys that are really right 00:25:03.750 --> 00:25:08.190 for something. Writing something is easy to sell. 00:25:08.450 --> 00:25:10.789 What a lot of people don't know about is those 00:25:10.789 --> 00:25:13.109 two guys sitting down and writing, for example, 00:25:13.250 --> 00:25:16.990 the first verse of a song like Rainbow Connection, 00:25:16.990 --> 00:25:19.910 where you just write something where at the end 00:25:19.910 --> 00:25:22.950 of those first couple lines, you look at each 00:25:22.950 --> 00:25:25.529 other and you go, eek, what have we done? Think 00:25:25.529 --> 00:25:28.829 about it. Why are there so many songs about rainbows? 00:25:29.410 --> 00:25:32.829 And what's on the other side? Rainbows are visions, 00:25:32.910 --> 00:25:36.190 but only illusions. Rainbows have nothing to 00:25:36.190 --> 00:25:38.289 hide. And we looked at each other and went, oh, 00:25:38.329 --> 00:25:43.990 crap, wait a minute. Oh, now we've done it. Look 00:25:43.990 --> 00:25:47.069 what we did. We just denied the existence of 00:25:47.069 --> 00:25:50.509 any magic, any mystical anything other than just 00:25:50.509 --> 00:25:55.289 an illusion, you know, to rainbows. But what 00:25:55.289 --> 00:25:59.069 happened then is a pure gift from... the muse 00:25:59.069 --> 00:26:02.130 or the big amigo or the universe or what, but 00:26:02.130 --> 00:26:07.109 what happens next is Kermit sits in the next 00:26:07.109 --> 00:26:10.130 line, walks away from the podium in a sense, 00:26:10.369 --> 00:26:14.369 stops being the teacher or the mentor, and he 00:26:14.369 --> 00:26:17.250 sings, so we've been told and some choose to 00:26:17.250 --> 00:26:20.390 believe it. I know the wrong way to see. Someday 00:26:20.390 --> 00:26:23.150 we'll find it. The rainbow connection, the lovers, 00:26:23.329 --> 00:26:26.230 the dreamers, and me. What happens in that moment? 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:28.619 is he truly becomes a member of the audience 00:26:28.619 --> 00:26:30.799 and we're sitting there and now they're telling 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:33.859 us it's just illusions but we will you know and 00:26:33.859 --> 00:26:36.819 later on in the song you know who said that every 00:26:36.819 --> 00:26:39.099 wish would be heard and answered when wished 00:26:39.099 --> 00:26:41.680 on the morning star somebody thought of that 00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:45.220 and someone believed it look what it's done so 00:26:45.220 --> 00:26:49.720 far there is uh elements of a faith in there 00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:52.119 that is very personal to me i believe that what 00:26:52.119 --> 00:26:55.480 we dwell on We create. If I keep thinking, I'm 00:26:55.480 --> 00:26:57.220 not going to get that job, I'm not going to get 00:26:57.220 --> 00:26:58.960 that job, why should I bother? I'm not going 00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:02.019 to get that job. It's like I'm absolutely giving 00:27:02.019 --> 00:27:05.500 the universe my plans for this immediate future 00:27:05.500 --> 00:27:10.160 as opposed to, wow, what's coming next? Oh, that 00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:12.460 would be a great job. But if I don't get that, 00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:14.539 whatever I do get is probably going to be better. 00:27:14.660 --> 00:27:18.440 That mindset, I think, has a solid influence 00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:22.269 on maybe in a co -creator. In my future, it's 00:27:22.269 --> 00:27:27.269 almost like delivering your list. You pull up 00:27:27.269 --> 00:27:29.930 to the window at a fast food place and let them 00:27:29.930 --> 00:27:31.730 know what you want, and they give it to you. 00:27:32.130 --> 00:27:35.190 I'm not suggesting that I am turning the universe 00:27:35.190 --> 00:27:38.970 into a fast food window. What I'm saying is that 00:27:38.970 --> 00:27:43.329 our intention speaks louder than we do sometimes. 00:27:44.069 --> 00:27:49.720 And so that amazing moment in writing, Rainbow 00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:53.480 Connection with Kenny is something that I look 00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:56.000 back on and I go, you know what? I don't know 00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:58.480 who else's names to put on the sheet music, but 00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:01.799 it feels like there's a lot of energy and a lot 00:28:01.799 --> 00:28:05.500 of brilliance hovering overhead sometimes when 00:28:05.500 --> 00:28:07.339 you're sitting there and you're like, what am 00:28:07.339 --> 00:28:10.779 I going to write? So you postpone it, but you 00:28:10.779 --> 00:28:14.859 don't get to it right away. And then... When 00:28:14.859 --> 00:28:16.799 you finally, it's like trying to remember a name. 00:28:16.859 --> 00:28:18.799 It pops into your head. It pours out of you. 00:28:19.420 --> 00:28:22.339 It's a really long answer. I hope that it was 00:28:22.339 --> 00:28:25.359 somewhere close to the question you asked. Are 00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:28.700 you kidding me? I mean, look, I have to kind 00:28:28.700 --> 00:28:32.140 of do an aside here because I started podcasting 00:28:32.140 --> 00:28:36.480 in 2017. And my co -host, Jay Sweet, and I had 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:38.279 a show for several years called Toon Styles. 00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:40.059 And the whole time when we were building that 00:28:40.059 --> 00:28:42.099 show and getting our feet under us and getting 00:28:42.099 --> 00:28:44.710 this podcast thing going. I kept saying, I want 00:28:44.710 --> 00:28:47.650 to talk to the people whose music meant something 00:28:47.650 --> 00:28:50.750 to me. And I created a list of people that I 00:28:50.750 --> 00:28:53.309 wanted to talk to at some point in life. And 00:28:53.309 --> 00:28:56.210 at the top of that list was Paul Williams because 00:28:56.210 --> 00:28:59.930 of Rainbow Connection. This is the song that 00:28:59.930 --> 00:29:03.190 I danced with my mom to when I was still in preschool. 00:29:03.509 --> 00:29:06.069 She would put the record on because it was my 00:29:06.069 --> 00:29:08.069 album. The Muppet movie was one of the first 00:29:08.069 --> 00:29:11.880 albums my parents bought me. And I remember vividly 00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:14.980 walking over and dancing with her to that song, 00:29:15.019 --> 00:29:17.579 to the whole soundtrack. But Rainbow Connection 00:29:17.579 --> 00:29:21.259 was the one that always resonated most with us. 00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:24.400 So fast forward many years down the road. And 00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:27.740 in 2005, my wife and I got married. And my mom 00:29:27.740 --> 00:29:30.599 said, whatever you do, if you play Kermit the 00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:33.640 Frog for our mother -son dance, I'll never be 00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:35.339 able to make it through. And I said, don't worry, 00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:38.759 Ma. I promise you Kermit the Frog will not start. 00:29:39.210 --> 00:29:42.089 our mother -son dance. And I was very honest 00:29:42.089 --> 00:29:45.430 about that because what I did was being an audio 00:29:45.430 --> 00:29:47.829 engineer is I took Kenny Loggins' version of 00:29:47.829 --> 00:29:50.509 the Rainbow Connection and I played the first 00:29:50.509 --> 00:29:53.690 few lines of the song. And she whispered in my 00:29:53.690 --> 00:29:55.789 ear and she says, okay, very good, Brian. She 00:29:55.789 --> 00:29:58.329 goes, because if I heard Kermit, I would have 00:29:58.329 --> 00:30:01.769 lost it. Right at the end of the half of the 00:30:01.769 --> 00:30:03.529 verse that you talked about where it went into 00:30:03.529 --> 00:30:06.619 Kermit walking away from the podium. I actually 00:30:06.619 --> 00:30:09.039 crossfaded the two songs and had Kermit finish 00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:13.299 the song. And I'm literally, I'm welling up right 00:30:13.299 --> 00:30:17.779 now talking about it because this song just means 00:30:17.779 --> 00:30:21.980 so much to me and so much to my mom. And she's 00:30:21.980 --> 00:30:24.380 still here. She's going to listen to this episode. 00:30:25.420 --> 00:30:30.000 And I really don't have an end to that. But this 00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:33.259 interview means so much to me. Let me tell you, 00:30:33.299 --> 00:30:37.220 that's what I call a heart payment. Because it's 00:30:37.220 --> 00:30:39.859 like when I hear a story like that about you 00:30:39.859 --> 00:30:42.059 and your mom, and then the fact that it was a 00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:43.880 part of your wedding and all, that means I was 00:30:43.880 --> 00:30:49.559 there in some way. I mean, what a gift to return 00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:55.259 to me to share that. So on behalf of Kenny Asher 00:30:55.259 --> 00:30:58.539 and I, and on behalf of Kermit, thanks for the 00:30:58.539 --> 00:31:00.940 invitation. Thanks for taking us to the party. 00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:06.019 And thanks for letting me see your heart. That's 00:31:06.019 --> 00:31:10.640 all about heart. My minister gets very, very 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:13.640 passionate and touched by things when he's speaking. 00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:17.420 His name is Jim Terrell. And every now and then 00:31:17.420 --> 00:31:19.359 he gets that thing in his throat where he just 00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:26.119 can't make a sound. It's like, and he'll wait 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:28.220 until he can actually get it out. And he always 00:31:28.220 --> 00:31:34.019 says, God's punctuation. So that little thing 00:31:34.019 --> 00:31:36.160 in your throat, when you're touched and all of 00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:38.539 a sudden your throat tightens up and you can't 00:31:38.539 --> 00:31:41.819 speak, that's evidence of a big, big open heart. 00:31:41.960 --> 00:31:47.339 And maybe it's God's punctuation. I refer to 00:31:47.339 --> 00:31:49.720 the big amigo as the big amigo because it's a 00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:54.759 very friendly presence. I'm 34 years sober, so 00:31:54.759 --> 00:31:57.359 part of us getting sober is finding a higher 00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:00.650 power. of our own understanding. And I always 00:32:00.650 --> 00:32:03.230 said, I don't understand my higher power, but 00:32:03.230 --> 00:32:05.950 I don't understand electricity either, but I 00:32:05.950 --> 00:32:10.750 use it. It lights up my life and the same thing 00:32:10.750 --> 00:32:14.769 with my faith. So thanks for sharing that. That's 00:32:14.769 --> 00:32:18.970 a big deal to me. Well, because I've said all 00:32:18.970 --> 00:32:21.150 of that, I have a lot of questions about this 00:32:21.150 --> 00:32:25.029 song. I've waited 45 years to ask. So the first 00:32:25.029 --> 00:32:28.619 one is, when you were in the studio, And Jim 00:32:28.619 --> 00:32:31.359 Henson recorded this vocal track using Kermit's 00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:34.680 voice. What was your initial reaction to hearing 00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:38.019 this song, hearing your lyrics, your and Kenny's 00:32:38.019 --> 00:32:41.799 creation come out through Kermit? Well, I produced 00:32:41.799 --> 00:32:44.259 the album. So I was in the studio with Jim and 00:32:44.259 --> 00:32:46.339 Jim walked up and he sang it beautifully, but 00:32:46.339 --> 00:32:49.880 something was missing. It fell away. And I can't 00:32:49.880 --> 00:32:54.900 even tell you what it was. But it was a guy named 00:32:54.900 --> 00:32:58.319 Gary Elmer had a great little studio where we 00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:02.500 recorded. And Jim was just at the microphone 00:33:02.500 --> 00:33:05.660 singing. And somewhere along the line, I don't 00:33:05.660 --> 00:33:08.380 know if I suggested it. I don't know that he 00:33:08.380 --> 00:33:12.859 suggested it. I think it was me. But I'm not 00:33:12.859 --> 00:33:16.640 sure that he got Kermit. And he brought Kermit 00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:20.730 in and sat down. with a mic in front of him, 00:33:20.789 --> 00:33:24.309 but he had Kermit, and he sang it in basically 00:33:24.309 --> 00:33:27.769 one take. It just went, lay me down, please, 00:33:27.930 --> 00:33:34.029 Lord, that is, that's magic. And here's what 00:33:34.029 --> 00:33:38.589 I think about today instead of then. I think 00:33:38.589 --> 00:33:42.289 that it's very possible that the vocal to the 00:33:42.289 --> 00:33:45.589 first one was exactly the same as the vocal to 00:33:45.589 --> 00:33:48.269 the second one. But what happened is when you 00:33:48.269 --> 00:33:52.789 cast it as Kermit and you see Kermit, your heart 00:33:52.789 --> 00:33:56.809 responds, or better yet, my heart responded at 00:33:56.809 --> 00:33:59.609 that moment to everything Kermit meant to me 00:33:59.609 --> 00:34:03.890 and means to all of us. And to hear Kermit delivering 00:34:03.890 --> 00:34:08.010 that exact same performance. Might have just 00:34:08.010 --> 00:34:10.889 been the difference. In other words, I think 00:34:10.889 --> 00:34:16.489 that Jim needed to sing it better. Perhaps I 00:34:16.489 --> 00:34:20.909 needed to listen more lovingly. Well, the follow 00:34:20.909 --> 00:34:23.610 up on that question, you did appear in the Muppet 00:34:23.610 --> 00:34:27.190 movie in the bar scene as the piano player. I'm 00:34:27.190 --> 00:34:30.190 curious, were you on set the day that Jim performed 00:34:30.190 --> 00:34:32.969 Rainbow Connection as Kermit for the movie? Were 00:34:32.969 --> 00:34:35.949 you on set the whole time or? On set was that 00:34:35.949 --> 00:34:39.070 big tank of it, all that water and everything. 00:34:39.230 --> 00:34:42.070 And Jim was underneath that in like a little 00:34:42.070 --> 00:34:47.949 bubble, you know, a tank with his arm up through, 00:34:48.070 --> 00:34:50.829 you know, what the Muppet performers go through 00:34:50.829 --> 00:34:55.230 to deliver the amazingly textured and layered 00:34:55.230 --> 00:34:58.570 performances that they do is just, I mean, God, 00:34:58.690 --> 00:35:02.119 it's amazing. They have serious back issues, 00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:06.480 many of them, shoulders and whatever. But no, 00:35:06.579 --> 00:35:10.920 I was not there for that. And I think I was probably 00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:15.280 on set for probably a couple of days is all. 00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:18.599 I mean, I don't remember being around for most 00:35:18.599 --> 00:35:22.480 of it. And that's not uncommon for me. I think 00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:25.679 it's, you know, you... You know, you're off doing 00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:27.880 the next thing. You know, I'm booked to go back 00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:30.340 and play the piano player and steal the movie. 00:35:31.980 --> 00:35:37.920 And so it was great and all, but I remember seeing 00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:40.000 it the first time with the camera coming in from, 00:35:40.039 --> 00:35:42.800 you know, the great overhead shot down into the 00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:45.619 swamp and all and Kenny's beautiful strings and 00:35:45.619 --> 00:35:49.400 the like and just going, wow, you know. But also, 00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:53.539 you know, I scored. Kenny and I wrote the songs 00:35:53.539 --> 00:35:56.099 together, and as soon as we'd done the songs 00:35:56.099 --> 00:35:58.960 and the movie was shot and cut, it was time to 00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:01.739 score the movie. Kenny was going to score the 00:36:01.739 --> 00:36:04.260 movie and do all that beautiful music underneath. 00:36:05.219 --> 00:36:08.420 And Kenny's wife had a baby, and he went, he 00:36:08.420 --> 00:36:12.780 sat in front of the moviola for a couple days, 00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:15.349 and he went, you know what? I've got a brand 00:36:15.349 --> 00:36:17.369 new baby at home. It's where I'm supposed to 00:36:17.369 --> 00:36:21.070 be. I cannot stop thinking about that. And it 00:36:21.070 --> 00:36:25.190 was like Jim and I both went, go, go. And he 00:36:25.190 --> 00:36:28.730 slid over and I sat down and started out with 00:36:28.730 --> 00:36:32.789 the very first cue. And I just, I wrote the, 00:36:32.789 --> 00:36:38.050 you know, all the background music and all based 00:36:38.050 --> 00:36:43.420 on mostly what we did. I think all along the 00:36:43.420 --> 00:36:45.500 way, you know, you kind of get into like what's 00:36:45.500 --> 00:36:48.559 doing, doing what's right for the piece. And 00:36:48.559 --> 00:36:51.219 then you go away and then you come back and it's 00:36:51.219 --> 00:36:53.539 changed a little more and the sound effects are 00:36:53.539 --> 00:36:56.119 put in there and all. And it's just, it seemed 00:36:56.119 --> 00:36:58.059 the first time I saw it with an audience and 00:36:58.059 --> 00:37:01.179 it was absolutely finished. I was like, wow, 00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:06.510 Jim Hansen. Wow. So I have to ask, the song ended 00:37:06.510 --> 00:37:09.090 up hitting number 25 on the U .S. Billboard Hot 00:37:09.090 --> 00:37:13.369 100 and number 14 on Australia's Kent Music Report. 00:37:14.070 --> 00:37:17.929 How did you, Kenneth, and Jim react to that news 00:37:17.929 --> 00:37:21.530 that Rainbow Connection was a top 40 hit? Well, 00:37:21.550 --> 00:37:27.369 we loved it. We loved it and was obviously very, 00:37:27.489 --> 00:37:30.610 very excited. But I think that was absolutely 00:37:30.610 --> 00:37:35.329 gravy to know that. Away from the film, the song 00:37:35.329 --> 00:37:37.670 had a life. We didn't know how much of a life 00:37:37.670 --> 00:37:40.170 it was going to have. And, you know, I recorded 00:37:40.170 --> 00:37:44.510 it with Willie Nelson, a duet with Willie that 00:37:44.510 --> 00:37:47.670 was like, God, like a childhood dream come true 00:37:47.670 --> 00:37:50.889 for me. Just like, oh, my God. One of my favorite 00:37:50.889 --> 00:37:53.710 voices in the history of voices has got to be 00:37:53.710 --> 00:37:56.809 Willie Nelson, you know. But all the fabulous 00:37:56.809 --> 00:37:59.929 people that assigned me to do it with Jason Mraz. 00:38:01.659 --> 00:38:04.480 But, you know, it was, again, there's something 00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:09.639 about the now. You work on it. And a lot of that 00:38:09.639 --> 00:38:13.239 emotion that you're talking about, of just the 00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:16.599 gratitude for how exciting it is to see the success, 00:38:16.940 --> 00:38:19.659 a lot of that I'm getting right now. I mean, 00:38:19.699 --> 00:38:22.920 it's like I've still got to, you know, you talk 00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:27.420 about ASCAP. The American Society of Composers, 00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:29.619 Authors, and Publishers is a million members. 00:38:31.469 --> 00:38:35.369 We license and collect the royalties for our 00:38:35.369 --> 00:38:38.409 membership. We're 110 years old. It's a full 00:38:38.409 --> 00:38:44.309 -time job. But I'm also still writing. I'm doing 00:38:44.309 --> 00:38:46.829 Pan's Labyrinth right now with Guillermo del 00:38:46.829 --> 00:38:50.329 Toro. I just wrote all the lyrics for that. Gustavo 00:38:50.329 --> 00:38:54.590 Santaolalla's music is amazing. And it's Jeremy 00:38:54.590 --> 00:38:58.269 Hunger writing the book based on Guillermo's 00:38:58.269 --> 00:39:01.150 script. And it's just... I mean, it's headed 00:39:01.150 --> 00:39:06.289 for London first, and then back into New York, 00:39:06.329 --> 00:39:09.650 and it's, you know, J .J. Abrams producing, so 00:39:09.650 --> 00:39:12.530 it's real, you know. And I love the work. I'm 00:39:12.530 --> 00:39:14.329 writing with a group called Portugal the Man 00:39:14.329 --> 00:39:18.030 a lot, you know, and I love Portugal the Man. 00:39:18.409 --> 00:39:21.070 John Gourley and all the guys are like family. 00:39:21.150 --> 00:39:24.809 So I stay busy, and I've got, you know, a great 00:39:24.809 --> 00:39:29.030 family, two great kids. Two great stepkids as 00:39:29.030 --> 00:39:33.849 well and four grandchildren. And I live on airplanes. 00:39:33.989 --> 00:39:40.269 I get to see them all. Well, I feel bad going 00:39:40.269 --> 00:39:42.329 back to Rainbow Connection. I have one other 00:39:42.329 --> 00:39:44.670 question for this one, if you don't mind. But 00:39:44.670 --> 00:39:49.050 the song was also used in Disney's 2011 movie, 00:39:49.250 --> 00:39:53.289 The Muppets, as both the Muppets lounge act version 00:39:53.289 --> 00:39:56.639 as well as the grand finale to the movie. Were 00:39:56.639 --> 00:39:59.199 you involved in any capacity with that or just 00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:04.500 the initial songwriter? My involvement in that 00:40:04.500 --> 00:40:07.280 is, I mean, I had no involvement in choosing 00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:11.500 it. I was grateful that they did. I had no involvement 00:40:11.500 --> 00:40:16.280 in using it the ways they did twice in the film, 00:40:16.300 --> 00:40:20.000 and I'm grateful for the way they did. And I 00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:23.800 have a continuing relationship around the Muppets 00:40:23.800 --> 00:40:26.949 with Disney that is... a really good relationship 00:40:26.949 --> 00:40:30.809 and i mean and talk about being uh you're not 00:40:30.809 --> 00:40:34.389 giving up your fan card my you know i i i saw 00:40:34.389 --> 00:40:38.389 it at bambi you know i mean i uh the snow white 00:40:38.389 --> 00:40:41.449 and the seven dwarfs was it was like what talk 00:40:41.449 --> 00:40:46.650 about a cinematic history that is royalty absolute 00:40:46.650 --> 00:40:49.789 royalty and and to have a relationship with disney 00:40:49.789 --> 00:40:53.190 is pretty wonderful Now, talking about the Muppet 00:40:53.190 --> 00:40:54.969 movie soundtrack as a whole, because we did spend 00:40:54.969 --> 00:40:56.670 a lot of time on the Rainbow Connection, but 00:40:56.670 --> 00:40:59.030 there's so many amazing songs on this soundtrack 00:40:59.030 --> 00:41:02.469 that are such a huge part of my childhood. It 00:41:02.469 --> 00:41:04.889 seems like every song in the movie kind of shined 00:41:04.889 --> 00:41:06.889 a spotlight on a different character in some 00:41:06.889 --> 00:41:10.170 facet. Moving Right Along was for Fozzie. Never 00:41:10.170 --> 00:41:13.030 Before, Never Again was for Miss Piggy. I Hope 00:41:13.030 --> 00:41:15.230 That Something Better Comes Along was for Rolf. 00:41:15.389 --> 00:41:17.469 I'm Going to Go Back There Someday for Gonzo. 00:41:17.730 --> 00:41:20.389 And Can You Picture That for The Electric Mayhem. 00:41:21.079 --> 00:41:24.719 Now, unlike Emmett Otter, you already knew the 00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:26.539 Muppet characters because of your involvement 00:41:26.539 --> 00:41:30.159 with the Muppet show. So did it make it easier 00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:32.780 or more challenging to write these songs, having 00:41:32.780 --> 00:41:36.179 already known the characters through the Muppet 00:41:36.179 --> 00:41:41.280 show? You know, the fact is, before I did the 00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:43.139 Muppet show, I had a relationship with those 00:41:43.139 --> 00:41:46.300 characters. I loved them and I loved. I loved 00:41:46.300 --> 00:41:49.440 the depth of the characters because Kermit and 00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:53.559 Gonzo, for example, Kermit is like the Jimmy 00:41:53.559 --> 00:41:59.840 Stewart of... He's every man. He's every frog, 00:41:59.880 --> 00:42:04.820 you know. And then Gonzo is this innocent that 00:42:04.820 --> 00:42:07.699 also has, you know, just the wisdom of a Yoda. 00:42:07.900 --> 00:42:11.800 I mean, there is... And Gonzo is a landlocked 00:42:11.800 --> 00:42:15.840 bird. And there's something about... Gonzo, as 00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:19.800 a landlocked bird, that just, you know, I'm an 00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:22.219 old skydiver. I made 100 jumps before I quit, 00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:24.300 and I used to love free fall. I used to love 00:42:24.300 --> 00:42:26.739 relative work with, you know, I jumped with the 00:42:26.739 --> 00:42:28.820 Golden Knights and made a seven -man diamond 00:42:28.820 --> 00:42:32.000 that I fired out of for the Circus of the Stars. 00:42:32.099 --> 00:42:35.380 So I love the freedom of being in the air like 00:42:35.380 --> 00:42:38.659 that. There's a limit to it. I mean, we got 80 00:42:38.659 --> 00:42:41.599 seconds of free fall with the Knights or 60 seconds. 00:42:42.059 --> 00:42:44.719 and civilian jumps, but so I've got this connection. 00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:47.820 And there's that wonderful scene in the desert 00:42:47.820 --> 00:42:50.659 when they break down on their way to Hollywood 00:42:50.659 --> 00:42:53.079 and Kermit's kind of beating himself up about 00:42:53.079 --> 00:42:55.559 it. But Kenny and I are going, look at this. 00:42:56.480 --> 00:42:58.820 Gonzo's sitting out there looking at that sky. 00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:03.480 You look at each other and it's like, what's 00:43:03.480 --> 00:43:07.539 he thinking? It's like if he's truly a landlocked 00:43:07.539 --> 00:43:10.619 bird, does that look familiar to him? We wrote 00:43:10.619 --> 00:43:13.960 the song. And we played it for Jim. And you remember 00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:18.420 the imitation I did of him rejecting a song earlier? 00:43:18.780 --> 00:43:22.300 That's exactly where that happened. Because we 00:43:22.300 --> 00:43:25.019 showed it to him, and I sang it, and he was like, 00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:33.340 oh, so pretty. And then kind of just left. That's 00:43:33.340 --> 00:43:36.920 it. It was not listed as a place for a song. 00:43:37.019 --> 00:43:38.739 I guess there's not going to go a song there. 00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:43.679 But a couple days later, James shows up, and 00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:47.480 he goes, listen, what do you think of this? What 00:43:47.480 --> 00:43:53.159 if Gonzo buys a bunch of helium balloons for 00:43:53.159 --> 00:43:56.360 Camilla, his also landlocked bird girlfriend, 00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:59.639 and he experiences it, it takes him up into the 00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:03.460 air, and he experiences flight, but instead of 00:44:03.460 --> 00:44:07.119 being scared, he's, well, the term I would use 00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:11.070 now is awakened. that his spirit is awakened 00:44:11.070 --> 00:44:14.949 to who he really is, where he really belongs. 00:44:15.550 --> 00:44:19.349 And that gives a meaning to the song later on 00:44:19.349 --> 00:44:22.789 that is already there, but to somebody watching 00:44:22.789 --> 00:44:26.150 the movie, you see the trigger to it. That's 00:44:26.150 --> 00:44:29.610 what created that opportunity for that emotion 00:44:29.610 --> 00:44:35.750 to be expressed by Gonzo. That, in a story, in 00:44:35.750 --> 00:44:39.889 about three sentences or four, It says volumes 00:44:39.889 --> 00:44:44.849 about who Jim Henson was, I think. Life is a 00:44:44.849 --> 00:44:47.349 movie. Write your own ending. Keep believing. 00:44:47.710 --> 00:44:50.809 Keep pretending. We've done just what we've set 00:44:50.809 --> 00:44:54.170 out to do. Thanks to the lovers, the dreamers, 00:44:54.170 --> 00:44:57.570 and you. Was the Magic Store the last song you 00:44:57.570 --> 00:44:59.590 guys wrote for the film? Because the callback 00:44:59.590 --> 00:45:02.110 to the Rainbow Connection, as well as the way 00:45:02.110 --> 00:45:04.670 it plays out at the end of that movie, I mean, 00:45:04.690 --> 00:45:06.769 the hair on my arms just stood up reading the 00:45:06.769 --> 00:45:09.019 lyrics alone. It couldn't have been the more 00:45:09.019 --> 00:45:12.480 perfect choice. We felt really good about it. 00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:16.179 We knew that we wanted to, there was a listing 00:45:16.179 --> 00:45:18.559 for, first of all, there's the whole beautiful 00:45:18.559 --> 00:45:21.000 ending where they build a rainbow and it all 00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:23.300 falls apart and there's an explosion and then 00:45:23.300 --> 00:45:27.760 the universe provides a real rainbow. Wow, I 00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:33.519 just got you. I feel like Jim just put his arm 00:45:33.519 --> 00:45:38.739 around me. And so. It was a reprise of Rainbow, 00:45:39.019 --> 00:45:44.760 but we wanted to do something more. The thing 00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:47.599 is, sometimes you need to button the lesson. 00:45:48.059 --> 00:45:50.920 You need to remind people of what they've just 00:45:50.920 --> 00:45:53.679 seen, because with all that travel and all this 00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:56.880 stuff that's gone on and everything, and this 00:45:56.880 --> 00:45:59.880 movie, what has happened? The line is, life's 00:45:59.880 --> 00:46:04.130 like a movie. Write your own ending. But also 00:46:04.130 --> 00:46:06.590 the whole message is keep believing, keep pretending. 00:46:06.889 --> 00:46:10.110 Well, the keep believing and keep pretending 00:46:10.110 --> 00:46:12.969 is a callback to who said that every wish would 00:46:12.969 --> 00:46:15.090 be heard. And if somebody thought of that and 00:46:15.090 --> 00:46:19.869 someone believed it, and this is a footnote in 00:46:19.869 --> 00:46:24.949 a sense that reminds us of the truth of that 00:46:24.949 --> 00:46:28.989 probability that that can happen again, that 00:46:28.989 --> 00:46:31.460 somebody thought of it. And someone believed 00:46:31.460 --> 00:46:34.980 it. Life's like a movie, right? Keep believing, 00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:38.619 keep pretending. We've done just what we set 00:46:38.619 --> 00:46:42.559 out to do. Thanks to the lovers, the dreamers, 00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:50.820 you. And that and you totally now puts Jim, or 00:46:50.820 --> 00:46:55.039 Kermit rather, back in front of the audience 00:46:55.039 --> 00:46:59.440 and reminds them that they have all been a party. 00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:03.820 to the success you're witnessing. My entire career, 00:47:03.900 --> 00:47:06.260 incidentally, has been like that. When I get 00:47:06.260 --> 00:47:11.260 calls, you know, from the guys of Daft Punk who 00:47:11.260 --> 00:47:14.699 saw Phantom of the Paradise 20 times and then 00:47:14.699 --> 00:47:16.739 decide that they're going to start a career as 00:47:16.739 --> 00:47:19.579 a rock band called Daft Punk, and then they wind 00:47:19.579 --> 00:47:21.880 up, you know, coming to me and I write a couple 00:47:21.880 --> 00:47:24.320 songs and they ask me to sing one of them, and 00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:27.079 we win the Grammy for Album of the Year, that 00:47:27.079 --> 00:47:32.280 entire thing is almost... It's almost a sidecar 00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:36.500 to what the Muppet movie promises, what Jim promised 00:47:36.500 --> 00:47:40.719 that Kenny and I think we're able to say fairly 00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:45.880 clearly, hopefully. And if not, it's just a great 00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:49.820 movie. A great bunch of people to work with. 00:47:49.880 --> 00:47:53.079 A great bunch of furries. My favorite furries 00:47:53.079 --> 00:47:56.369 in the world. Well, Paul, to say that I'm grateful 00:47:56.369 --> 00:47:58.670 for your time today would be the understatement 00:47:58.670 --> 00:48:01.150 of a lifetime. So instead, I'm simply going to 00:48:01.150 --> 00:48:04.110 thank you for the decades of sing -alongs, dance 00:48:04.110 --> 00:48:06.409 parties, and loving memories that your music 00:48:06.409 --> 00:48:09.030 has brought my family over the years. This has 00:48:09.030 --> 00:48:11.710 truly been an honor of a lifetime for me, and 00:48:11.710 --> 00:48:14.309 I thank you for joining me on my weekly mixtape. 00:48:24.420 --> 00:48:26.440 We're living through some really interesting, 00:48:26.539 --> 00:48:30.039 scary times and all. So we need that big open 00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:32.400 heart from you and the people that love your 00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:35.739 podcast. And I'm really grateful and honored 00:48:35.739 --> 00:48:38.420 to have been a part of it, my friend. Now, I 00:48:38.420 --> 00:48:40.179 want to take this moment to personally thank 00:48:40.179 --> 00:48:42.780 Mr. Desmond Child for helping arrange this sit 00:48:42.780 --> 00:48:45.500 down, because words cannot describe how grateful 00:48:45.500 --> 00:48:48.219 I am for that. And I'm also grateful for each 00:48:48.219 --> 00:48:51.019 and every My Weekly Mixtape listener, whether 00:48:51.019 --> 00:48:53.139 you listen each and every week to the show or 00:48:53.139 --> 00:48:55.380 just the episodes that suit your musical tastes. 00:48:55.619 --> 00:48:58.800 I appreciate the continued support over the last 00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:02.239 nearly two years. And remember, you can find 00:49:02.239 --> 00:49:04.559 My Weekly Mixtape on almost all the social media 00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:08.070 haunts at My Weekly Mixtape. You can also head 00:49:08.070 --> 00:49:10.650 to myweeklymixtape .com to check out the full 00:49:10.650 --> 00:49:14.550 catalog of My Weekly Mixtape episodes. And finally, 00:49:14.570 --> 00:49:16.110 if you like what you're hearing on the show, 00:49:16.289 --> 00:49:18.510 you can help me out by either telling your music 00:49:18.510 --> 00:49:21.030 -loving friends, leaving the show a five -star 00:49:21.030 --> 00:49:23.769 review wherever you're tuning in, or joining 00:49:23.769 --> 00:49:26.949 the Patreon mixtaper community at patreon .com 00:49:26.949 --> 00:49:30.739 forward slash myweeklymixtape. There you can 00:49:30.739 --> 00:49:33.219 enjoy early access to ad -free episodes of the 00:49:33.219 --> 00:49:36.619 show, hear Patreon -exclusive bonus banter episodes, 00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:39.880 chime in on upcoming show topics, become a guest 00:49:39.880 --> 00:49:43.099 curator, and so much more. That's all for this 00:49:43.099 --> 00:49:45.079 week. Thanks again for listening, and until next 00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:46.940 time, enjoy the tunes.