WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.080 Hi, this is Chris Gerringer from Sterling Sound. 00:00:02.279 --> 00:00:04.540 You're listening to My Weekly Mixtape with Brian 00:00:04.540 --> 00:00:18.879 Colburn. Welcome to My Weekly Mixtape, a podcast 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:22.260 that takes the classic mixtape approach to building 00:00:22.260 --> 00:00:24.920 a modern playlist. I'm your host, Brian Colburn. 00:00:25.309 --> 00:00:27.730 Joining me tonight is Chris Gerringer, a senior 00:00:27.730 --> 00:00:30.890 engineer and partner at Sterling Sound. Chris 00:00:30.890 --> 00:00:33.829 has mastered countless albums that are staples 00:00:33.829 --> 00:00:36.890 of my collection, including titles like Wu -Tang 00:00:36.890 --> 00:00:40.390 Clan's Enter the Wu -Tang 36 Chambers, Naughty 00:00:40.390 --> 00:00:43.890 by Nature's 1991 self -titled album, as well 00:00:43.890 --> 00:00:46.729 as albums for modern chart -toppers like Rihanna, 00:00:46.909 --> 00:00:51.229 Lady Gaga, Dua Lipa, and many, many others. The 00:00:51.229 --> 00:00:53.729 songs and albums that Chris has mastered have 00:00:53.729 --> 00:00:57.369 racked up over 20 Grammy Award nominations and 00:00:57.369 --> 00:01:00.090 counting. It's needless to say, Chris, that it's 00:01:00.090 --> 00:01:02.170 an absolute honor to have you on the show this 00:01:02.170 --> 00:01:04.430 evening. Nice to meet you. Thank you for having 00:01:04.430 --> 00:01:07.129 me. Now, before we get started, I always like 00:01:07.129 --> 00:01:10.730 to ask my first time guests, what does the word 00:01:10.730 --> 00:01:14.989 mixtape mean to you? So I'm old, so I know what 00:01:14.989 --> 00:01:18.870 a mixtape is. I used to make mixtapes. A mixtape 00:01:18.870 --> 00:01:24.739 to me. Is it's a person exposing their favorite 00:01:24.739 --> 00:01:27.840 music, like their taste in music, a message that 00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:30.599 they want to give and making a tape for someone. 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:33.500 When you make a mixtape for someone, you want 00:01:33.500 --> 00:01:36.819 someone to know who you really are and what you 00:01:36.819 --> 00:01:39.280 love. And, you know, whether you're giving it 00:01:39.280 --> 00:01:42.840 to a significant other or a friend or for a party, 00:01:42.939 --> 00:01:45.760 mixtapes like back in the day were really important. 00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:48.120 Like when you came to a party with a mixtape. 00:01:48.540 --> 00:01:50.780 Everybody was listening and everybody knew whose 00:01:50.780 --> 00:01:53.340 mixtape it was. So it was a very important thing. 00:01:53.379 --> 00:01:58.140 I've made a ton of mixtapes in my day. Now, tonight's 00:01:58.140 --> 00:02:00.379 episode's a bit of a different animal from my 00:02:00.379 --> 00:02:03.060 weekly mixtape, as the conversation here is usually 00:02:03.060 --> 00:02:06.780 centered around bands and songs. And while we're 00:02:06.780 --> 00:02:09.900 still technically centering this episode around 00:02:09.900 --> 00:02:13.280 that, instead of talking about the songs themselves. 00:02:14.189 --> 00:02:16.129 Tonight, we're going to be digging into the actual 00:02:16.129 --> 00:02:19.289 sound of the songs. And then we're going to take 00:02:19.289 --> 00:02:22.229 a look at where the loudness wars stand now and 00:02:22.229 --> 00:02:24.590 where it might even be headed in the future. 00:02:24.810 --> 00:02:28.270 Now, Chris, in case that last sentence made any 00:02:28.270 --> 00:02:31.009 of my listeners' heads start spinning, could 00:02:31.009 --> 00:02:33.750 you maybe start by providing a top -level 101 00:02:33.750 --> 00:02:36.909 definition about what mastering actually is? 00:02:38.050 --> 00:02:41.370 Mastering is the last creative step in the music 00:02:41.370 --> 00:02:45.349 -making process. It's like Photoshop for audio. 00:02:45.569 --> 00:02:48.949 You take what's been recorded and produced and 00:02:48.949 --> 00:02:52.409 mixed already. And then we go through it with 00:02:52.409 --> 00:02:55.430 like a, it's a third person's take on what we 00:02:55.430 --> 00:02:57.210 did. You listen to it and you say, oh, that song 00:02:57.210 --> 00:02:59.310 sounds great, but it sounds dull in my room. 00:02:59.389 --> 00:03:02.050 Or that song sounds lower compared to the other 00:03:02.050 --> 00:03:05.110 songs. That song sounds too bright or too aggressive. 00:03:05.250 --> 00:03:08.969 And what we do in mastering is we reshape those 00:03:08.969 --> 00:03:12.150 songs to match the overall flow of an album. 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:15.659 For singles, you would treat each song as its 00:03:15.659 --> 00:03:18.439 own, you know, flower with its own look and own 00:03:18.439 --> 00:03:21.120 smell. But for an album, we kind of like try 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:23.259 and put it all together. I mean, we used to back 00:03:23.259 --> 00:03:25.400 in the day. Today, everybody is living in the 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:28.039 single world. So there's a different approach 00:03:28.039 --> 00:03:30.400 in mastering, but it's basically taking each 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:32.500 song and making it sound as best as it possibly 00:03:32.500 --> 00:03:36.120 can through EQs and limiters and compressors, 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:38.300 different pieces of gear that we do that with. 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:41.180 So then kind of focusing on the album side of 00:03:41.180 --> 00:03:42.659 things here, because I know there are a lot of 00:03:42.659 --> 00:03:44.180 people that listen to this show that are big 00:03:44.180 --> 00:03:47.960 into the album listens. How do you take mastering 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:50.479 into consideration when an album has been recorded 00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:52.919 with different producers at different studios? 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:56.319 Because especially in modern times, you have 00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:59.439 artists recording everywhere from major high 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:02.840 -end studios to bedrooms and pretty much everywhere 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:07.139 in between. Exactly. So let me just go back in 00:04:07.139 --> 00:04:10.990 the day. An album was generally recorded by one 00:04:10.990 --> 00:04:14.990 or two people and mixed by one person pretty 00:04:14.990 --> 00:04:18.569 much, you know, a full album. Today, like you 00:04:18.569 --> 00:04:21.170 said, you know, I work on a, you know, a pop 00:04:21.170 --> 00:04:25.629 record. It's got nine producers, 13 mixers, all 00:04:25.629 --> 00:04:27.850 different things that now we have to try and 00:04:27.850 --> 00:04:30.189 tie the whole thing together so it sounds like 00:04:30.189 --> 00:04:33.509 a cohesive album. So it sounds like one piece 00:04:33.509 --> 00:04:38.750 of art from one artist as opposed to... 13 different 00:04:38.750 --> 00:04:42.089 sounds. I personally like when an album sounds 00:04:42.089 --> 00:04:44.310 like an album. Today, some of the younger people 00:04:44.310 --> 00:04:47.290 don't really care. They don't really listen to 00:04:47.290 --> 00:04:49.829 albums or never have listened to albums. And 00:04:49.829 --> 00:04:52.250 they're all about their song on that person's 00:04:52.250 --> 00:04:55.970 album. So, you know, I use some of my old school 00:04:55.970 --> 00:04:59.209 mentality to work and then I use some of my kind 00:04:59.209 --> 00:05:02.410 of modern day, you know, what would I do in this 00:05:02.410 --> 00:05:05.680 situation on the project as well. But it's tying 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:07.860 everything together. It's going through it. When 00:05:07.860 --> 00:05:10.259 you have that many producers and engineers, it 00:05:10.259 --> 00:05:13.500 makes it much more difficult to find that common 00:05:13.500 --> 00:05:15.639 ground because you feel like sometimes you're 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:18.420 taking away from some songs to make them match 00:05:18.420 --> 00:05:22.240 or adding too much to make it match. That's where 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:24.480 the master engineer comes in with his, you know, 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:27.360 his or her expertise and knowledge of this is 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:29.399 what I would do in this situation. And in my 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:32.360 room, it sounds perfect or it sounds the best 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:35.189 it can be. And rooms are very important in mastering 00:05:35.189 --> 00:05:37.550 as well. That's your everyday piece of gear is 00:05:37.550 --> 00:05:41.790 the room, not an EQ or a limiter or a workstation. 00:05:41.850 --> 00:05:44.189 It's the room itself where you get your sound 00:05:44.189 --> 00:05:47.430 from and you become confident in your sound and 00:05:47.430 --> 00:05:50.689 know your sound. So very important kind of thing 00:05:50.689 --> 00:05:53.430 to have. Well, I want to touch on something you 00:05:53.430 --> 00:05:55.810 said there because you talked about the old school 00:05:55.810 --> 00:05:58.910 mentality that you have. Now you're an engineer 00:05:58.910 --> 00:06:02.170 who navigated the waters between the transition. 00:06:03.050 --> 00:06:08.550 analog tape to digital files. So let's use Wu 00:06:08.550 --> 00:06:12.350 -Tang Clan's 36 Chambers versus Dua Lipa's Radical 00:06:12.350 --> 00:06:16.189 Optimism for an example here. I understand that 00:06:16.189 --> 00:06:19.009 the fundamental nature of mastering is going 00:06:19.009 --> 00:06:22.189 to be there no matter what the format. Were there 00:06:22.189 --> 00:06:25.310 nuances that you had to take into consideration 00:06:25.310 --> 00:06:29.269 when you were mastering on tape versus now in 00:06:29.269 --> 00:06:32.600 the digital realm? Yes, actually the Wu -Tang, 00:06:32.819 --> 00:06:36.579 so funny story, it all came in on digital tape 00:06:36.579 --> 00:06:40.480 when it first came in. And I worked on the album 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:43.439 in the digital realm. I mean, with analog gears, 00:06:43.459 --> 00:06:46.139 but back into digital. But then as they did the 00:06:46.139 --> 00:06:48.860 singles, they remixed it all to tape because 00:06:48.860 --> 00:06:51.699 I feel like some of the better mixers at the 00:06:51.699 --> 00:06:54.800 time were working still in half inch tape. And 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:56.579 that's what they did. So a lot of the singles 00:06:56.579 --> 00:06:59.360 of the Wu -Tang's album. are different mixes 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:01.980 than what's on the album you know and that was 00:07:01.980 --> 00:07:04.019 kind of a common thing back in the day today 00:07:04.019 --> 00:07:07.180 it's pretty much like you know it's digital file 00:07:07.180 --> 00:07:09.199 and it just the digital file goes everywhere 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:12.959 single album cut whatever working in that on 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:15.279 like the Wu -Tang was much longer process everything 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:18.860 was done in real time you know Dua Lipa today 00:07:18.860 --> 00:07:21.540 the files are sent to me from you know like Josh 00:07:21.540 --> 00:07:24.259 Goodwin mixed most of it he sends me the files 00:07:24.259 --> 00:07:27.980 from LA to New Jersey I, you know, log into my 00:07:27.980 --> 00:07:30.199 computer, I pull the files down, I put them up 00:07:30.199 --> 00:07:33.199 and I just start working on it. Back when I did 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:36.379 the Wu -Tang, they came in, they had tapes. We 00:07:36.379 --> 00:07:39.180 had to do a lot of editing, like a lot of assembly 00:07:39.180 --> 00:07:42.660 for the album. All those Kung Fu skits and all 00:07:42.660 --> 00:07:46.019 those, the speaking pieces, the interludes were 00:07:46.019 --> 00:07:48.879 taken from other tapes. We actually recorded 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:52.519 off of VHS in my lounge at the studio, some of 00:07:52.519 --> 00:07:57.139 the Kung Fu skits. the lounge all the way into 00:07:57.139 --> 00:08:01.480 my room into the converters and rizza played 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:05.519 watching tv in the lounge you know we had a giant 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:09.420 screen old box like rear projector tv playing 00:08:09.420 --> 00:08:11.740 the kung fu skits and he's like all right and 00:08:11.740 --> 00:08:14.199 i was like ready you know would yell across the 00:08:14.199 --> 00:08:17.160 studio you know okay hit it and he'd play the 00:08:17.160 --> 00:08:19.240 skit and i'd record it and then i'd edit it into 00:08:19.240 --> 00:08:21.319 the album and stuff like that but he had to watch 00:08:21.319 --> 00:08:24.740 some of it and know which pieces and It was just 00:08:24.740 --> 00:08:26.639 way different. Today, nobody does it. Everybody 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:29.920 has everything done digitally on files and everybody 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:32.220 sends it. Nobody's recording last minute like 00:08:32.220 --> 00:08:34.580 back then. We used to do a lot of, back in the 00:08:34.580 --> 00:08:37.240 day, we would do a lot of interludes and skits 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:39.100 live in the studio. So I'd be like, just get 00:08:39.100 --> 00:08:40.740 me a mic and I'm going to say something. And 00:08:40.740 --> 00:08:43.179 you're like, okay. You know, today you'd be like, 00:08:43.259 --> 00:08:45.320 get out of here. I can't do that. Yeah, it's 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:47.200 too much. But, you know, back in the day, there 00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:50.940 was much more. analog involvement in making everything. 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:52.679 Everything today is pretty much like you said, 00:08:52.740 --> 00:08:55.519 people are recording vocals, you know, in hotel 00:08:55.519 --> 00:08:59.600 rooms, buses, you know, green rooms at TV shows, 00:08:59.639 --> 00:09:01.299 you know, like the weirdest places you heard 00:09:01.299 --> 00:09:03.279 somebody did a vocal track or fix something. 00:09:03.779 --> 00:09:06.039 Yeah. Back in the day, it was much more like 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:08.419 you really prepared for mastering. You really 00:09:08.419 --> 00:09:10.259 finished your album. Everything was kind of done 00:09:10.259 --> 00:09:12.000 except for maybe the interludes. And then you 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:14.820 showed up today. Everything's pretty much done 00:09:14.820 --> 00:09:18.279 in production. You know, a singer just sings 00:09:18.279 --> 00:09:20.360 over a completed track and that's it. It's kind 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:22.879 of crazy today. Now, is that something that you 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:25.159 notice when you're doing a mastering session 00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:27.220 where you can kind of almost turn to the artist 00:09:27.220 --> 00:09:29.659 and say, you know, I could kind of hear nuances 00:09:29.659 --> 00:09:34.720 of a reverb that doesn't sound traditional. Are 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:36.860 you sure you want to keep pushing? Have you ever 00:09:36.860 --> 00:09:39.940 sent files back to the artist to say something's 00:09:39.940 --> 00:09:42.779 not sounding right here? So that is the question 00:09:42.779 --> 00:09:46.090 of the day. That beats all questions. Is it my 00:09:46.090 --> 00:09:51.450 place to tell the artist this is just bad? Because 00:09:51.450 --> 00:09:54.289 by the time it gets to me, it's gone through 00:09:54.289 --> 00:09:59.190 the label, the producer, the mixer, and everybody's 00:09:59.190 --> 00:10:02.649 kind of somewhat signed off on it. I don't know 00:10:02.649 --> 00:10:04.789 if that's like the full extent of when it gets 00:10:04.789 --> 00:10:07.090 to me. A lot of times it's like, get it to mastering, 00:10:07.190 --> 00:10:10.429 we'll make decisions later. But I feel like sometimes... 00:10:10.750 --> 00:10:13.129 There, you know, sometimes I would like to tell, 00:10:13.210 --> 00:10:15.450 you know, the artist or the mixer, hey, this 00:10:15.450 --> 00:10:18.049 could use a little more love or, you know, maybe 00:10:18.049 --> 00:10:20.730 give this another look at, you know, before we 00:10:20.730 --> 00:10:24.309 sign off on it here in mastering. You know, sometimes 00:10:24.309 --> 00:10:26.750 there's things that just, you know, somebody's 00:10:26.750 --> 00:10:29.769 rushed or the sample wasn't really good or there's 00:10:29.769 --> 00:10:31.470 something in the song that's not really good 00:10:31.470 --> 00:10:34.009 and they have no time to fix it or they can't 00:10:34.009 --> 00:10:37.090 fix it. Now, as somebody who's been mastering 00:10:37.090 --> 00:10:40.059 for as long as you have, do you have. certain 00:10:40.059 --> 00:10:43.340 albums that you look to as quote -unquote shining 00:10:43.340 --> 00:10:46.799 examples of mastering perfection, something you 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:49.960 show clients as a benchmark for where you'd like 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:52.679 to take their album, or does that change from 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:55.759 project to project? For me, it changes from project 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:59.279 to project. I do a really broad section of music 00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:02.720 when I master. I do a lot of K -pop. I do a lot 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:06.090 of pop. I do reggae. I do... you know rock i 00:11:06.090 --> 00:11:08.549 do metal i do stuff all over the place so my 00:11:08.549 --> 00:11:11.669 day is not really like you know it's not like 00:11:11.669 --> 00:11:13.889 i could put up a favorite album of mine in the 00:11:13.889 --> 00:11:16.350 morning and then kind of go through the day vibing 00:11:16.350 --> 00:11:18.970 off of that right because of what i do is so 00:11:18.970 --> 00:11:21.990 so varied you know and in the digital world today 00:11:21.990 --> 00:11:24.070 like back in the day you were limited to how 00:11:24.070 --> 00:11:26.009 much work you could do because of the real -time 00:11:26.009 --> 00:11:28.990 work and setup today my you know i have an assistant 00:11:28.990 --> 00:11:32.000 do all my setups and he basically just sets up 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:35.399 files in my computer. So I just open up the files 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:37.120 and they're there and it's set up and I start 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:39.700 working. I don't have to align a tape machine 00:11:39.700 --> 00:11:42.139 or wind tapes on and off and things like that. 00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:45.600 It's much more intense, much more work today 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:49.220 because of that. But I do every now and then 00:11:49.220 --> 00:11:52.080 I do listen to some references. If somebody mentioned 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:53.779 something, I'll sit and listen to what they're 00:11:53.779 --> 00:11:57.259 talking about to kind of get a color idea or, 00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:00.360 you know, a direction. And then I put their music 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:03.379 up and see if it even is close or, you know, 00:12:03.379 --> 00:12:05.700 has anything to do with their references. And 00:12:05.700 --> 00:12:07.980 then I go from there. I feel a lot of times people's 00:12:07.980 --> 00:12:11.299 references today are just like, this is a hit 00:12:11.299 --> 00:12:13.639 song you did two years ago and I really like 00:12:13.639 --> 00:12:16.159 it. Can you make me like that? It's like, it 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:18.279 doesn't, the reference doesn't work like that. 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:20.879 Right. A reference to me is like, this is kind 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:24.019 of like the song that we're thinking we're like. 00:12:24.350 --> 00:12:26.529 you know like this is the vibe of the song the 00:12:26.529 --> 00:12:30.269 level the color the transients all the all the 00:12:30.269 --> 00:12:32.429 things that have to do with audio is what i take 00:12:32.429 --> 00:12:34.309 into account when somebody gives me a reference 00:12:34.309 --> 00:12:37.509 not is it a hit but generally people just give 00:12:37.509 --> 00:12:40.549 me hit songs as references nobody's giving me 00:12:40.549 --> 00:12:45.070 some obscure track from 1993 that I did a hip 00:12:45.070 --> 00:12:47.149 -hop record they're like this is the vibe you 00:12:47.149 --> 00:12:49.809 know like it's it's always Dua Lipa or Rihanna 00:12:49.809 --> 00:12:52.429 or Lady Gaga or something you know it's big records 00:12:52.429 --> 00:12:55.690 it's never you know the obscure thing and I'm 00:12:55.690 --> 00:12:57.269 way every now and then I get something a little 00:12:57.269 --> 00:12:59.470 weird and I'm like okay this guy really means 00:12:59.470 --> 00:13:02.070 for me to make it sound like that as opposed 00:13:02.070 --> 00:13:05.230 to make it sound like a hit record or you know 00:13:05.230 --> 00:13:07.820 a big star That to me is just like, OK, everybody 00:13:07.820 --> 00:13:11.220 wants that. Nobody's nobody's bringing me tapes 00:13:11.220 --> 00:13:13.519 or files and saying, like, just, you know, whatever. 00:13:13.700 --> 00:13:15.960 Do whatever you feel, you know, kind of like 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:19.539 make it do your best work, you know. So, of course. 00:13:20.019 --> 00:13:23.480 Now, the loudness wars crept up, maybe for me 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:26.500 at least, almost out of nowhere. And if I think 00:13:26.500 --> 00:13:30.159 back, I'd say it started to really become prominent 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:34.799 around the same time that iTunes shot into popularity. 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:39.299 As somebody who works with mastering albums all 00:13:39.299 --> 00:13:43.000 the time, did it seem as immediate to you? Or 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:47.840 did you see, well, hear the tides changing during 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:51.200 that time period? So this is going to be a little 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:54.600 history moment here. The loudness wars for mastery 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:58.419 engineers have basically been since the 80s. 00:13:58.659 --> 00:14:02.860 Maybe even before that. Radio stations played. 00:14:03.370 --> 00:14:05.649 play your music basically back in the day it 00:14:05.649 --> 00:14:08.509 was set on one level an engineer set it and you 00:14:08.509 --> 00:14:10.389 couldn't go past there you'd blow the system 00:14:10.389 --> 00:14:13.269 so whatever the radio station played at they 00:14:13.269 --> 00:14:15.590 never really adjusted the level so whatever the 00:14:15.590 --> 00:14:18.149 records came in at if the records were loud they 00:14:18.149 --> 00:14:20.629 played louder if the records were low they played 00:14:20.629 --> 00:14:24.129 at that level and the louder records hit the 00:14:24.129 --> 00:14:27.009 radio compressors a little better and kind of 00:14:27.009 --> 00:14:29.220 gave it some oomph that maybe it was missing 00:14:29.220 --> 00:14:31.820 so people started realizing the louder i deliver 00:14:31.820 --> 00:14:34.980 a record to radio the better it sounds on radio 00:14:34.980 --> 00:14:38.519 so the loudness war kind of created then and 00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:42.519 it also happened in clubs with djs so djs would 00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:45.460 always set their volume on 10 and the records 00:14:45.460 --> 00:14:49.200 were the mix levels and the louder your record 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:51.879 was for the dj the louder it played in the club 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:54.080 So if they were playing everything on 10, if 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:56.620 your record was 10, it played at 10. If the next 00:14:56.620 --> 00:14:59.159 guy's record was seven, his record played a little 00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:01.259 lower and people are like, oh, okay. You know, 00:15:01.259 --> 00:15:04.200 it was all reactionary to level. We go through 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:06.259 vinyl, the whole thing, the louder the vinyl, 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:09.519 the better for radio. Cassettes kind of nullified 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:12.539 all that. CDs came into play and then it was 00:15:12.539 --> 00:15:17.259 more about not having noise, record noise, like 00:15:17.259 --> 00:15:20.629 the ground floor of the record. and then it kind 00:15:20.629 --> 00:15:23.909 of switched to people loading up cd players and 00:15:23.909 --> 00:15:26.570 the louder cds sounded better and the louder 00:15:26.570 --> 00:15:29.690 cds played louder on the radio for whatever reason 00:15:29.690 --> 00:15:31.730 you know the same thing so everybody started 00:15:31.730 --> 00:15:34.750 getting it to make my cd the loudest again and 00:15:34.750 --> 00:15:37.509 kind of push the boundaries of digital audio 00:15:37.509 --> 00:15:41.970 back then so now fast forward into playlists 00:15:41.970 --> 00:15:44.490 and here we are again with the same scenario 00:15:44.490 --> 00:15:47.309 if my song sounds the loudest on the playlist 00:15:47.309 --> 00:15:51.090 i feel like it stands out more And I mean, if 00:15:51.090 --> 00:15:53.250 you take a bottle of hot sauce and dump it on 00:15:53.250 --> 00:15:55.929 one portion of your dinner, whatever that is, 00:15:55.929 --> 00:15:57.669 is going to be the one where you're like, damn, 00:15:57.750 --> 00:16:00.450 that was hot and whatever. Is it better? I don't 00:16:00.450 --> 00:16:02.549 know. But you'll remember that one as being the 00:16:02.549 --> 00:16:05.429 hottest plate. So the same thing with the songs. 00:16:05.450 --> 00:16:07.889 If it plays louder, some people feel like, oh, 00:16:07.970 --> 00:16:10.909 it's louder, so it's better. There's kind of 00:16:10.909 --> 00:16:13.950 this thing, too, about most people don't notice 00:16:13.950 --> 00:16:17.470 a level change until it's 3 dB. they don't notice 00:16:17.470 --> 00:16:21.129 1 db or 2 dbs they notice 3 db the average person 00:16:21.129 --> 00:16:24.429 so if your record is 3 db louder than somebody 00:16:24.429 --> 00:16:28.509 else you notice it as apparently louder and that's 00:16:28.509 --> 00:16:31.009 what everybody's looking for the louder the better 00:16:31.009 --> 00:16:33.809 it's kind of like stupid and doesn't really make 00:16:33.809 --> 00:16:37.710 sense to actually being true so as much as i 00:16:37.710 --> 00:16:40.350 hate the loudness wars i hate that name i hate 00:16:40.350 --> 00:16:42.870 the whole thing involved with it it's really 00:16:42.870 --> 00:16:46.379 true and people really want a louder record so 00:16:46.379 --> 00:16:49.179 there is a war over who has the loudest record 00:16:49.179 --> 00:16:51.679 and it's never going to end it's going to be 00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:54.960 there it's how do we as mastery engineers navigate 00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:59.019 that through every genre of medium like from 00:16:59.019 --> 00:17:02.940 records to cds to streaming now i don't know 00:17:02.940 --> 00:17:04.420 if there's ever going to be anything different 00:17:04.420 --> 00:17:07.279 than streaming going forward like what what could 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:10.799 there be you know It was in your head. I don't, 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:12.859 you know, I don't know where, I don't know where 00:17:12.859 --> 00:17:14.319 we're going with that, but someone's going to 00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:16.380 want to make that louder in your head. You know 00:17:16.380 --> 00:17:19.480 what I'm saying? So going forward, the loudness 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:21.460 war is never going to end. That's what I kind 00:17:21.460 --> 00:17:24.460 of came here to say today. It's, it's, it's annoying, 00:17:24.700 --> 00:17:26.799 but it's never going to end and it's real and 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:28.740 everybody is going to have to deal with it going 00:17:28.740 --> 00:17:33.720 forward. Yes. Yes. Music sounds better when it's 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:36.970 not. push to the max. And that is something that 00:17:36.970 --> 00:17:39.529 a master engineer can generally tell you like, 00:17:39.650 --> 00:17:42.490 okay, you know, if we're here and it sounds good 00:17:42.490 --> 00:17:44.950 to everybody, and then the producer, whoever 00:17:44.950 --> 00:17:47.069 wants it to be here, because it sounds better 00:17:47.069 --> 00:17:49.789 in a playlist, that difference could be a couple 00:17:49.789 --> 00:17:53.130 DB and it could be a game changer. For like the 00:17:53.130 --> 00:17:56.710 vibe and the feeling and the space and the transience 00:17:56.710 --> 00:17:59.349 and the movement of the record by squeezing it 00:17:59.349 --> 00:18:02.470 that much more. So that's the part as a master 00:18:02.470 --> 00:18:04.690 engineer and all master engineers hate to go 00:18:04.690 --> 00:18:07.210 through. And it's like, if it was just this level, 00:18:07.309 --> 00:18:10.529 it would sound so amazing. Like it blows my mind 00:18:10.529 --> 00:18:12.509 in my room and the whole thing. And when you 00:18:12.509 --> 00:18:14.490 push it too much, everything just gets kind of 00:18:14.490 --> 00:18:18.009 in your face and it loses the vibe. That's the 00:18:18.009 --> 00:18:20.859 part I wish I could really. explain to people 00:18:20.859 --> 00:18:25.519 and really guide people in audio but everybody 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:27.900 lives by the thing if it's louder it's better 00:18:27.900 --> 00:18:30.960 so it's hard to change we have to change everybody 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:33.720 to get that to work if one person stands out 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:35.140 it's the same way it started in the beginning 00:18:35.140 --> 00:18:37.740 one person said if my record's louder it's better 00:18:37.740 --> 00:18:40.460 you know so it's never it's never going to change 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:44.279 I said that. Well, it's fascinating you bring 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:46.240 that up because I want to play a short clip. 00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:48.859 I did an interview recently with Eric Bass of 00:18:48.859 --> 00:18:52.259 Shinedown and his studio album, I Had a Name, 00:18:52.339 --> 00:18:54.940 was mastered by Ted Jensen over at Sterling Sound. 00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:57.519 And he talked about that. I'd like to play that 00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:00.480 because I feel like you and him are on the same 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:02.920 page here. Let's take a listen. Thank you to 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:05.279 Ted Jensen, the legendary Ted Jensen, mastering 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:07.519 engineer at Sterling Sound, because he masters 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:11.500 all of Shinedown's records and all of... my records 00:19:11.500 --> 00:19:15.180 and anything i work on i have him master and 00:19:15.180 --> 00:19:17.680 believe me man it's something i have to come 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:20.039 to terms with when i listen back to a mastered 00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:22.740 record that i've made which is this is not going 00:19:22.740 --> 00:19:24.920 to be as loud as everybody else's record probably 00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:27.420 like comparatively you know it's just good it's 00:19:27.420 --> 00:19:30.660 just not but there's a volume knob there and 00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:34.839 if you turn it up three clicks three db whatever 00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:36.859 that is, then it will be as loud as everybody 00:19:36.859 --> 00:19:40.039 else's record and it'll have dynamics. And so 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:43.140 that is a conscious thing I do. I realized that 00:19:43.140 --> 00:19:46.019 I have to give up some loudness shock value in 00:19:46.019 --> 00:19:48.720 that, you know, like everybody wants a loud record, 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:50.619 man. I want a loud record. I want a really loud 00:19:50.619 --> 00:19:52.200 record. I want the loudest record out there. 00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:56.460 Everybody does, but you can't have it both ways. 00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:02.339 Is Eric's approach in 2025 a refreshing exception 00:20:02.339 --> 00:20:07.019 to the rule? Absolutely. Absolutely. And every 00:20:07.019 --> 00:20:10.640 now and then I feel like some people get it when 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:14.720 they hear it the right way. Hardly anybody comes 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:17.599 to master ever since COVID people went out and, 00:20:17.619 --> 00:20:19.720 you know, they went to sweet water and they bought, 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:22.160 you know, every piece of gear for home studio 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:26.180 for COVID. And now everybody just stays at home. 00:20:26.220 --> 00:20:28.339 Like even big artists, just like, Oh, I'll listen 00:20:28.339 --> 00:20:30.319 to it in my studio at home. I know the speakers. 00:20:31.069 --> 00:20:33.549 And they miss out on this, what I have here, 00:20:33.769 --> 00:20:37.069 which is like, it's a room designed for audio. 00:20:37.210 --> 00:20:40.329 It's not some speakers with some diffusers somewhere. 00:20:40.529 --> 00:20:44.170 The entire room is set up for the pristine, perfect 00:20:44.170 --> 00:20:48.309 audio listening environment. And if they got 00:20:48.309 --> 00:20:51.789 to hear what I hear here, they would maybe have 00:20:51.789 --> 00:20:55.250 a different approach or they'd have a different 00:20:55.250 --> 00:20:58.390 thought about making it loud. in the end and 00:20:58.390 --> 00:21:00.569 hearing the difference between it being crushed 00:21:00.569 --> 00:21:03.869 here and being dynamic and open here and the 00:21:03.869 --> 00:21:06.730 right level but we need people to come in again 00:21:06.730 --> 00:21:09.490 you know i you know i have actually have next 00:21:09.490 --> 00:21:11.930 week i have two really big artists coming in 00:21:11.930 --> 00:21:15.150 two separate projects and i'm excited that they're 00:21:15.150 --> 00:21:17.710 coming in because they're gonna hear the stuff 00:21:17.710 --> 00:21:20.269 here and know what it's know what i'm hearing 00:21:20.269 --> 00:21:23.509 and there's less dialogue involved there's less 00:21:23.509 --> 00:21:26.180 guessing involved it's like i look at them and 00:21:26.180 --> 00:21:28.500 i watch them be like you know if they're like 00:21:28.500 --> 00:21:30.740 like listening and they're like vibing and like 00:21:30.740 --> 00:21:33.299 whatever then i'm i'm you know i'm taking that 00:21:33.299 --> 00:21:35.839 energy as like okay this is good if they're like 00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:38.400 going like this i you know i know we're gonna 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:41.099 have to make some changes so it's an instant 00:21:41.099 --> 00:21:44.200 revision note as they say you know it's like 00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:47.059 the revision's going on right now Where if it 00:21:47.059 --> 00:21:49.220 goes back and forth, you never really know what 00:21:49.220 --> 00:21:51.720 someone's listening to it on. You know, I have 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:54.200 giant ATC monitors in here. If they're listening 00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:56.740 on headphones, it's a different vibe. If they're 00:21:56.740 --> 00:21:58.779 only going to listen on headphones, that's a 00:21:58.779 --> 00:22:00.160 different vibe. If they're going to listen on 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.019 small speakers, that's a different, you know, 00:22:02.019 --> 00:22:05.059 there's just so many things. What I wish a lot 00:22:05.059 --> 00:22:07.819 of clients would do and artists would do is trust 00:22:07.819 --> 00:22:10.680 the process and the engineer. You know, like 00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:13.819 this is not some home thing here. This is a real 00:22:13.819 --> 00:22:18.480 studio with, you know. real engineers put this 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:21.359 together, you know, architects and electricians 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:24.180 and, you know, mad scientists put this all together 00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:27.640 for, for a good reason. So it's just getting 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:31.440 them to that point. Well, as a listener for me, 00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:34.299 there is loud songs like we've talked about, 00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:37.880 but then there's brick walled songs. And I've 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:40.559 used that term with casual music fans and I've 00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:42.839 kind of received some raised eyebrows over the 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:45.960 years. Can you talk about what brickwalling is 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:49.000 and what it means for you besides headaches as 00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:52.279 a mastering engineer? So let me just say first, 00:22:52.339 --> 00:22:55.019 the headache part is because you can't do anything. 00:22:55.799 --> 00:22:59.039 Brickwalling is where somebody raises the level 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:02.900 of the audio so high that when you actually turn 00:23:02.900 --> 00:23:06.559 the knobs, you don't really hear what would normally 00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:09.759 happen on a normal level record. You know, you 00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:13.210 hear distortion or you hear... like really broad 00:23:13.210 --> 00:23:17.170 EQ changes or EQ changes that don't even sound 00:23:17.170 --> 00:23:20.309 like what would normally happen because the level 00:23:20.309 --> 00:23:22.829 is so loud going through the circuits and pushing 00:23:22.829 --> 00:23:25.490 everything. And that's because people want the 00:23:25.490 --> 00:23:27.990 record. They want this thing happening. And I 00:23:27.990 --> 00:23:30.490 get some of it. So I've done records that were, 00:23:30.549 --> 00:23:33.130 you know, minus two luffs, which is like almost 00:23:33.130 --> 00:23:38.009 completely destroyed. And it worked for their 00:23:38.009 --> 00:23:40.109 genre of music. It worked for what they were 00:23:40.109 --> 00:23:43.380 doing. Was I happy working on it? I'm going to 00:23:43.380 --> 00:23:46.000 say no. Like it's not something I like to, I 00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:48.539 really like to do is deal. Like, I feel like 00:23:48.539 --> 00:23:51.460 I'm only using one hand when I'm working on it. 00:23:51.539 --> 00:23:53.339 You know, like I'm not, I'm only using one ear 00:23:53.339 --> 00:23:56.440 because I'm so limited in what I can do when 00:23:56.440 --> 00:23:58.839 a song is lower and has a lot of movement to 00:23:58.839 --> 00:24:01.299 it. I can make it tighter. I can make it in your 00:24:01.299 --> 00:24:04.059 face if you want, or I can relax it and keep 00:24:04.059 --> 00:24:06.940 it nice and loose and have that spatial feeling 00:24:06.940 --> 00:24:09.680 around it. When you get the brick wall, you can't 00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:12.579 undo that. You know, you can't undo that and 00:24:12.579 --> 00:24:15.819 put space back in and uncrush it. So there's 00:24:15.819 --> 00:24:17.980 only one direction to go in and that's more, 00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:20.539 you know, like it's more, you know, it's like, 00:24:20.599 --> 00:24:23.099 what do you do? You know, like it's so limited, 00:24:23.140 --> 00:24:25.119 you know, like I said, it's going back to like, 00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:27.140 imagine, you know, eating something that's got 00:24:27.140 --> 00:24:30.339 so much hot sauce on it. You can't like, what 00:24:30.339 --> 00:24:32.299 do you do? Pour milk on it to, you know what 00:24:32.299 --> 00:24:34.640 I'm saying? Like you can't undo it. So you just 00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:36.940 have to eat it that way and deal with it that 00:24:36.940 --> 00:24:39.619 way. It's always going to be that one. note of 00:24:39.619 --> 00:24:42.799 like loud and distorted and that's it and some 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:45.960 people like that it's the part about the the 00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:48.700 loudness wars that i feel like in the beginning 00:24:48.700 --> 00:24:51.380 i didn't get and now i get and that's what it 00:24:51.380 --> 00:24:53.779 is some people like that stuff some people think 00:24:53.779 --> 00:24:58.779 that's artistically you know what they want well 00:24:58.779 --> 00:25:01.339 an album immediately comes to mind for me when 00:25:01.339 --> 00:25:04.059 you say that at least in terms of brick walling 00:25:04.059 --> 00:25:06.019 and the loudness wars and that's metallica's 00:25:06.019 --> 00:25:09.200 death magnetic which Ted Jensen over at Sterling 00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:11.759 Sound mastered. However, he's gone on record 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:16.119 saying that the mixes were already brickwalled 00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:20.519 before even arriving at Sterling. Is that something 00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:23.400 that's become the norm or is that a more extreme 00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:27.740 exception to this rule? No, I would say a lot 00:25:27.740 --> 00:25:30.819 of the content that comes in now, a lot of the 00:25:30.819 --> 00:25:33.359 files that come in are brickwalled before we 00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:36.200 get them. Wow. I don't know many master engineers. 00:25:36.500 --> 00:25:39.799 I mean, good ones are like people that work in 00:25:39.799 --> 00:25:43.039 a real room that would intentionally brick wall 00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:46.359 something to just impress somebody and say, look 00:25:46.359 --> 00:25:49.500 at the level I got you. Maybe 10 years ago, people 00:25:49.500 --> 00:25:51.519 would do stuff like that, but not in today's 00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:53.940 world. You know, like I would consider that like 00:25:53.940 --> 00:25:57.059 a, just an amateur move if somebody did that. 00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:01.640 But mix wise, a lot of times the producers write 00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:03.890 these songs and they're. When they're writing 00:26:03.890 --> 00:26:06.250 them and creating them, they're ABing against 00:26:06.250 --> 00:26:08.970 other songs that are already mastered or released. 00:26:09.230 --> 00:26:12.109 So they're dragging their production level up 00:26:12.109 --> 00:26:15.869 to that level of a mastered project. And that's 00:26:15.869 --> 00:26:17.910 where they're creating their sounds and all their 00:26:17.910 --> 00:26:20.789 stuff. And then they hand it off to a mixer. 00:26:20.869 --> 00:26:24.549 And if the mixer lowers that, then the producer 00:26:24.549 --> 00:26:26.230 is going to be like, hey, that's what I want. 00:26:26.369 --> 00:26:27.809 You know, like that's where I've been working. 00:26:28.029 --> 00:26:31.190 So mixer's now stuck saying, okay, I have to 00:26:31.190 --> 00:26:35.640 mix this. at minus three luffs or four luffs 00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:38.440 or whatever you know even six or seven luffs 00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:41.339 to mix at is loud you know you're really pushing 00:26:41.339 --> 00:26:44.980 the boundaries of you know modern equipment and 00:26:44.980 --> 00:26:47.940 it's like i work every day with plugins and a 00:26:47.940 --> 00:26:49.680 lot of these plugins aren't really set up to 00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:52.200 go that loud you know you're really pushing all 00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:55.759 the parameters of these plugins and analog gear 00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:59.210 for sure so It's kind of like, you know, they're 00:26:59.210 --> 00:27:01.190 stuck there. Everybody's stuck there. Once the 00:27:01.190 --> 00:27:03.450 producer says, this is where I am, we're all 00:27:03.450 --> 00:27:06.089 stuck there or the writer or the artist or whoever. 00:27:06.269 --> 00:27:09.509 We can't undo that in a lot of cases. You know, 00:27:09.549 --> 00:27:11.569 if you guys like guys like Shinedown going in 00:27:11.569 --> 00:27:14.069 saying, we're going to make this with space and 00:27:14.069 --> 00:27:17.509 movement and all that. Love that. Love that. 00:27:17.549 --> 00:27:19.869 Because there's always an option to go louder. 00:27:20.130 --> 00:27:22.890 You know, there's no, when it's too loud, there's 00:27:22.890 --> 00:27:25.630 no option to undo that. Right. And that's where 00:27:25.630 --> 00:27:28.690 it's kind of like. You know, I work on some projects 00:27:28.690 --> 00:27:31.569 where they're so loud and so distorted that I'm 00:27:31.569 --> 00:27:34.710 not necessarily like, like I'm not doing a lot 00:27:34.710 --> 00:27:38.450 to it. So I don't really want like a full association 00:27:38.450 --> 00:27:41.410 with like, oh, this is my genre or this is my 00:27:41.410 --> 00:27:43.650 thing where people listen to and go, man, Chris 00:27:43.650 --> 00:27:45.450 really cranked the hell out of that. You know, 00:27:45.470 --> 00:27:47.450 it's like, no, I didn't. I didn't, you know, 00:27:47.450 --> 00:27:50.029 like you get a little bit of a bad rep when stuff 00:27:50.029 --> 00:27:52.130 is really loud like that. you know if it's a 00:27:52.130 --> 00:27:54.109 hit record nobody gives a shit everybody's like 00:27:54.109 --> 00:27:57.009 oh my god it's so good and i and i really laugh 00:27:57.009 --> 00:28:00.529 at times when people like you know a really loud 00:28:00.529 --> 00:28:04.349 crushed record becomes a hit and everybody's 00:28:04.349 --> 00:28:07.150 like man that sounds so good it's so like whatever 00:28:07.150 --> 00:28:09.549 it's like no you like the song it doesn't really 00:28:09.549 --> 00:28:12.210 sound that good but you like the song and all 00:28:12.210 --> 00:28:15.150 the magic works and i get that part but as far 00:28:15.150 --> 00:28:17.690 as mixing or mastering it's not really that good 00:28:17.690 --> 00:28:21.339 so let me wind back to metallica which is funny. 00:28:21.380 --> 00:28:23.819 Like, I guess 15 years ago, we couldn't talk 00:28:23.819 --> 00:28:26.279 about this because it was like a whole thing. 00:28:26.700 --> 00:28:31.000 And I think Rick Rubin produced that. And you 00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:33.119 know, there was like, he was doing a lot of stuff 00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:35.220 loud. He was one of the first guys who was doing 00:28:35.220 --> 00:28:38.220 stuff really loud. And I'm a huge fan of Rick. 00:28:38.299 --> 00:28:41.400 Like a lot of his production, he did a Tom Petty 00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:43.779 album that I think is one of Tom's. Yeah. It's 00:28:43.779 --> 00:28:46.119 one of Tom Petty's best albums, you know? And 00:28:46.119 --> 00:28:49.059 I'm a total fan, but. I kind of feel like that 00:28:49.059 --> 00:28:51.559 level might not have been necessary for that 00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:55.180 record at that time. And Ted got a lot of shit 00:28:55.180 --> 00:28:59.000 for it. And when he said he didn't do it, you 00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:00.900 know, Rick and everybody else got pissed off 00:29:00.900 --> 00:29:02.920 saying like, oh, you threw us under the bus or 00:29:02.920 --> 00:29:04.680 whatever, whatever they want to call it or whatever 00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:06.900 they want to say. And I don't think Ted meant 00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:10.839 to do that in any way, but it happened. You know, 00:29:10.859 --> 00:29:12.619 it was one of the first records that people were 00:29:12.619 --> 00:29:14.940 like, wow, this is really loud and distorted. 00:29:15.380 --> 00:29:18.380 And it's not what. you know it wasn't at the 00:29:18.380 --> 00:29:20.940 loud level that everybody accepted it went past 00:29:20.940 --> 00:29:24.859 that so you know a lot of people shunned it and 00:29:24.859 --> 00:29:26.759 now today you would laugh you'd be like okay 00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:29.119 that's just an average sound level record you 00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:31.160 know exactly because we've worked our way up 00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:34.079 to that point now Now, were there any genres 00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:37.799 that you feel are more comfortable in the loud 00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:40.460 space versus others? Because like you said, Shinedown 00:29:40.460 --> 00:29:42.559 is a rock band and they're trying to kind of 00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:45.220 have some more atmosphere and space. Do you ever 00:29:45.220 --> 00:29:47.680 deal with a pop or a hip hop artist that comes 00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:50.180 in and says, you know what? We want space. We 00:29:50.180 --> 00:29:53.259 want room to breathe at the top. I've been getting 00:29:53.259 --> 00:29:55.799 more and more of that. It's kind of weird. Like 00:29:55.799 --> 00:29:59.259 I do everything. I always give the client back 00:29:59.259 --> 00:30:02.460 the level that I feel like. okay, this is your 00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:05.859 genre. These are your, you know, the people that 00:30:05.859 --> 00:30:07.619 you're going to be against or whatever in the 00:30:07.619 --> 00:30:10.299 same realm or the same playlist. And I kind of 00:30:10.299 --> 00:30:13.380 try and put them in that same level area. And 00:30:13.380 --> 00:30:15.420 I've been getting a lot of people lately saying, 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:17.099 Hey, could you lower that a little? I don't, 00:30:17.099 --> 00:30:18.819 it doesn't need to be that loud. And I'm like, 00:30:18.859 --> 00:30:21.140 sure. You know, like it's going to change a little, 00:30:21.180 --> 00:30:22.599 what's going to get a little better, I think, 00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:25.019 but you know. I'm really getting into lowering 00:30:25.019 --> 00:30:28.160 stuff and it's it's kind of funny as you know 00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:29.799 every time I get one where they're like lowered 00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:31.680 I kind of feel like oh wow maybe they think I'm 00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:34.519 like that loud guy you know like it's like I 00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:35.920 don't want to be the loud guy I want to be the 00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:38.299 good guy let me go you know but it's hard without 00:30:38.299 --> 00:30:41.039 anybody coming in you know like you know what 00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:44.160 a lot of stuff I do it's like even a phone call 00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:47.920 and explain until I hear it until I work on it 00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:51.140 and you know bounce it off somebody It's all 00:30:51.140 --> 00:30:53.220 this like kind of give and take thing. You know, 00:30:53.259 --> 00:30:55.599 I do my thing. You listen to it. You give me 00:30:55.599 --> 00:30:57.720 your thing back. And then, you know, we go back 00:30:57.720 --> 00:31:00.859 and forth. But lowering stuff, definitely. It's 00:31:00.859 --> 00:31:03.799 definitely cool. So has the vinyl resurgence 00:31:03.799 --> 00:31:08.220 over the last 10 or 15 years played a role in 00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:10.579 maybe changing the conversation a little? Because 00:31:10.579 --> 00:31:13.339 I know for certain that dynamics back in the 00:31:13.339 --> 00:31:15.400 early days of vinyl were extremely important. 00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:18.210 And if you push it too hot. it could make the 00:31:18.210 --> 00:31:21.049 vinyl sound worse when the vinyl goes through 00:31:21.049 --> 00:31:24.470 the needle and goes through that process of playing 00:31:24.470 --> 00:31:27.569 a record. Have artists started to say, you know 00:31:27.569 --> 00:31:29.690 what? I know streaming is where the bulk, but 00:31:29.690 --> 00:31:32.029 we need to think vinyl here. Is that, has that 00:31:32.029 --> 00:31:34.990 happened to you at all? It has happened. It's 00:31:34.990 --> 00:31:37.990 happening more and more where people, you know, 00:31:38.269 --> 00:31:40.069 the funny thing today is when people listen to 00:31:40.069 --> 00:31:42.069 vinyl they go oh vinyl sounds so much better 00:31:42.069 --> 00:31:45.930 it's the loud file cut onto the vinyl so there's 00:31:45.930 --> 00:31:49.569 no more dynamics in it but today a few people 00:31:49.569 --> 00:31:53.769 are saying like let's not use the loud streaming 00:31:53.769 --> 00:31:56.710 version let's lower that let's put something 00:31:56.710 --> 00:32:00.990 dynamic on vinyl and do that vinyl has a lot 00:32:00.990 --> 00:32:05.460 of physical restrictions electronically just 00:32:05.460 --> 00:32:08.220 it's one groove on a disc and it's constantly 00:32:08.220 --> 00:32:10.700 going they're next to each other the more amplitude 00:32:10.700 --> 00:32:13.920 they have the more space it needs the lower the 00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:16.640 level there's all kinds of math involved but 00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:19.059 people today are starting to listen to vinyl 00:32:19.059 --> 00:32:22.180 and say hey this i wish we could do like a vinyl 00:32:22.180 --> 00:32:25.619 version and i've done a bunch of vinyl albums 00:32:25.619 --> 00:32:29.420 for people in the last three or four years where 00:32:29.420 --> 00:32:32.910 they're like You did my streaming. Now let's 00:32:32.910 --> 00:32:36.069 start from scratch and do a vinyl version and, 00:32:36.130 --> 00:32:38.869 you know, just give the vinyl cutting guy level 00:32:38.869 --> 00:32:41.329 that's good for vinyl where he's not going to 00:32:41.329 --> 00:32:43.529 have to raise or lower stuff. It's going to go 00:32:43.529 --> 00:32:45.309 through the cutter head. There's not going to 00:32:45.309 --> 00:32:47.990 be any kind of problems. And the vinyl sounds 00:32:47.990 --> 00:32:51.109 cool. It's interesting. It's different. Like 00:32:51.109 --> 00:32:53.089 if you really have a good turntable, you'll notice 00:32:53.089 --> 00:32:55.430 it. Part of the other problem is that when you 00:32:55.430 --> 00:32:58.849 do vinyl today, when vinyl was the main source, 00:32:59.269 --> 00:33:03.089 everybody had it. a turntable and a system and 00:33:03.089 --> 00:33:05.349 everybody knew how to maintain the turntable 00:33:05.349 --> 00:33:07.529 and the cartridge and people kind of knew about 00:33:07.529 --> 00:33:10.490 the needle and the all that stuff today people 00:33:10.490 --> 00:33:13.049 either have like a ten thousand dollar turntable 00:33:13.049 --> 00:33:15.970 or a hundred dollar turntable yes and the hundred 00:33:15.970 --> 00:33:18.410 dollar turntables plugged into your sono system 00:33:18.410 --> 00:33:21.349 or whatever you know there's no like preamps 00:33:21.349 --> 00:33:24.150 and there's no people aren't really like they're 00:33:24.150 --> 00:33:27.130 not really doing the analog turntable thing they're 00:33:27.130 --> 00:33:30.730 doing a turntable with modern sound stuff so 00:33:30.730 --> 00:33:33.950 there's kind of a disconnect in that sense of 00:33:33.950 --> 00:33:37.089 the modern turntable but some artists are definitely 00:33:37.089 --> 00:33:41.650 going back to mastering for vinyl and it's cool 00:33:41.650 --> 00:33:44.809 there's some really cool i did a 21 pilots like 00:33:44.809 --> 00:33:47.700 live record three or four years ago where it 00:33:47.700 --> 00:33:50.299 was just for vinyl. There was no streaming thing. 00:33:50.420 --> 00:33:53.220 So all the level and everything is just set up 00:33:53.220 --> 00:33:55.660 for vinyl. And, you know, it's for a live show. 00:33:55.740 --> 00:33:57.819 It's pretty good. It's pretty dynamic. So it's 00:33:57.819 --> 00:34:01.200 kind of cool. By all means. Now, Neil Young spent 00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:03.920 a lot of time over the years campaigning for 00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:07.220 high quality audio in the digital space, dating 00:34:07.220 --> 00:34:09.579 back to the Pono player that he put his efforts 00:34:09.579 --> 00:34:13.599 into. And there's slowly but surely been adopting 00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:17.949 of this, such as Apple Music, Tidal and Qobuz, 00:34:18.230 --> 00:34:20.510 maybe a few of the other streaming services, 00:34:20.650 --> 00:34:24.429 but it's not fully embraced by the music industry, 00:34:24.590 --> 00:34:29.469 even though 4K video is the industry standard 00:34:29.469 --> 00:34:33.289 in 5G. Why is there such a hyper focus on the 00:34:33.289 --> 00:34:36.969 visual side of things and even audio for videos 00:34:36.969 --> 00:34:40.929 such as Dolby Atmos mixes for movies and different 00:34:40.929 --> 00:34:43.949 television shows? But with music, it's been such 00:34:43.949 --> 00:34:47.969 a slow kind of. Let's see what happens. Transition. 00:34:48.449 --> 00:34:52.889 I feel like, so it's of the four genres of entertainment. 00:34:53.449 --> 00:34:57.969 I feel like film and television run everything. 00:34:58.530 --> 00:35:03.170 They call the shots like Atmos came out of television, 00:35:03.389 --> 00:35:06.650 you know, or film. It didn't, it didn't, it was 00:35:06.650 --> 00:35:09.469 like surround sound was around and, you know, 00:35:09.469 --> 00:35:13.139 whatever, but. As systems got better for television, 00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:16.219 Sonos and Bose and all these things, that was 00:35:16.219 --> 00:35:17.860 developed for television. It wasn't developed 00:35:17.860 --> 00:35:20.400 for music. They just kept trying to tie music 00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:22.519 into it because it's like, hey, we make speakers 00:35:22.519 --> 00:35:26.119 that play audio. Maybe the music industry could 00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:28.739 get on this. So Apple doing their thing with 00:35:28.739 --> 00:35:31.579 Atmos was kind of a cool move. We could have 00:35:31.579 --> 00:35:33.780 a three -hour conversation about Atmos right 00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:38.090 now. i like it and i think it's cool but i think 00:35:38.090 --> 00:35:40.530 it's a secondary thought right now i think when 00:35:40.530 --> 00:35:43.409 people start focusing on atmos it will definitely 00:35:43.409 --> 00:35:47.210 get better and be much cooler but i feel like 00:35:47.210 --> 00:35:49.610 film runs everything the audio world the music 00:35:49.610 --> 00:35:53.210 world kind of like we navigate around that broadway 00:35:53.210 --> 00:35:56.349 and tv like whatever that stuff or not tv but 00:35:56.349 --> 00:35:57.849 you know what i'm saying broadway they're like 00:35:57.849 --> 00:36:00.719 at the bottom of decision -making and entertainment, 00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:03.000 I feel like. But they're just doing Broadway. 00:36:03.219 --> 00:36:06.079 Nothing against Broadway people. Of course. But 00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:08.900 music, I feel like, is kind of like always getting 00:36:08.900 --> 00:36:11.440 the, you know, like, hey, we have a good idea. 00:36:11.559 --> 00:36:13.840 Now, you know, film's like, let's do it this 00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:15.460 way. And like, hey, we have a really another 00:36:15.460 --> 00:36:17.679 cool idea. No, no, you know, television's like, 00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:19.820 no, do it this way. You know, and then streaming 00:36:19.820 --> 00:36:21.460 services come in and they're like, hey, do it 00:36:21.460 --> 00:36:23.980 this way. So we're always being told what to 00:36:23.980 --> 00:36:26.539 do. You know, and the record companies just kind 00:36:26.539 --> 00:36:28.800 of say, do that. You know, this is good. Hey, 00:36:28.920 --> 00:36:31.099 we can do this. Let's change this. So we're always 00:36:31.099 --> 00:36:33.460 kind of changing and evolving and getting stuck 00:36:33.460 --> 00:36:37.219 in weird places. Like the formats and audio have 00:36:37.219 --> 00:36:40.840 changed so drastically and none of it's really 00:36:40.840 --> 00:36:42.760 clicked. And it's always been better, like DVD 00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:45.119 audio and, you know, all this other stuff, mini 00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:47.880 disc. And it's like, film is like, hey, we're 00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:50.300 doing 4K and everybody runs out and just gets 00:36:50.300 --> 00:36:53.059 4K, whatever, you know, like everybody jumps 00:36:53.059 --> 00:36:56.659 on it. i feel like music has never really held 00:36:56.659 --> 00:36:59.699 the key we kind of have but not never to get 00:36:59.699 --> 00:37:01.539 out of the pocket if you understand that you 00:37:01.539 --> 00:37:04.519 know like we're just following film or television 00:37:04.519 --> 00:37:07.400 and i don't know i feel like it could really 00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:10.340 go somewhere if everybody really gets in it the 00:37:10.340 --> 00:37:13.519 artists need to get in on it on atmos and and 00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:15.579 all that stuff and the artists really need to 00:37:15.579 --> 00:37:18.360 get in on vinyl and say hey i want to make really 00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:21.280 good vinyl you know i mean everybody does vinyl 00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:23.579 today but i read this thing a couple months ago 00:37:23.579 --> 00:37:26.360 that I don't know, 80 % of vinyl is never opened. 00:37:26.519 --> 00:37:28.920 Like, they never opened the record. Or it's never 00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:31.059 played. You know, they look at the disc and they 00:37:31.059 --> 00:37:32.360 look at everything, but they've never played 00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:35.219 the record. They're just buying it as, like, 00:37:35.340 --> 00:37:38.199 this extra thing. Like, I mean, Taylor Swift, 00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:42.239 Olivia Rodrigo, all these big artists that print 00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:44.500 four different vinyls. You know, purple vinyl, 00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:47.460 red vinyl, green vinyl. You know, single vinyl, 00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:49.539 double vinyl. They do all that stuff. And the 00:37:49.539 --> 00:37:52.199 fans run out and buy it. And it's physical, so 00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:54.739 the artist gets the money. The streaming money, 00:37:54.840 --> 00:37:56.619 like, we don't know, you know, where that money 00:37:56.619 --> 00:37:59.619 goes or who gets it. No artists that I know are 00:37:59.619 --> 00:38:02.280 happy with that, unless you're Taylor Swift or 00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:04.559 Bad Bunny or, you know, whatever. But I feel 00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:07.039 like the physical part is where artists are making 00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:09.739 money, and they should be behind that, you know? 00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:13.079 Cassettes are coming back, you know? Like, I 00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:15.579 mean, weird things are happening. 45 records 00:38:15.579 --> 00:38:18.730 are coming back. Well, as somebody who owns 4 00:38:18.730 --> 00:38:23.369 ,600 CDs and counting, I have to ask, I always 00:38:23.369 --> 00:38:26.130 feel like, at least in the modern age, CDs have 00:38:26.130 --> 00:38:30.690 become kind of the redheaded stepchild of the 00:38:30.690 --> 00:38:33.289 formats. But there's something that I've always 00:38:33.289 --> 00:38:35.710 felt is very versatile about the format. However, 00:38:36.090 --> 00:38:41.210 CDs are only getting, in most cases, The brick 00:38:41.210 --> 00:38:44.250 walled streaming mix. Tom Petty, we had talked 00:38:44.250 --> 00:38:46.849 about earlier when he did the Mud Crutch album 00:38:46.849 --> 00:38:52.409 back in the 2000s, put a audiophile CD in with 00:38:52.409 --> 00:38:55.590 the vinyl, which I thought was really pushing 00:38:55.590 --> 00:38:58.769 those boundaries in what music can be delivered 00:38:58.769 --> 00:39:01.730 on CD. Do you see a world where moving forward, 00:39:01.829 --> 00:39:05.699 if people start to embrace. sound quality and 00:39:05.699 --> 00:39:08.719 dynamics more. We might see CDs start to get 00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:10.940 a little bit more of a resurgence the way that 00:39:10.940 --> 00:39:15.199 vinyl and even cassettes have. I think so. I 00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:18.739 think the next step is really going to be higher 00:39:18.739 --> 00:39:22.380 resolution audio, like title going 24 bit. If 00:39:22.380 --> 00:39:25.380 I'm going to like listen to some other project, 00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:28.420 if it's just a being, I listened to it on Spotify. 00:39:29.289 --> 00:39:31.670 If I want to really hear a project and hear how 00:39:31.670 --> 00:39:34.349 it sounds, I listen to it on title because I 00:39:34.349 --> 00:39:36.510 know I'm listening to the real highest resolution 00:39:36.510 --> 00:39:40.570 file if it's available on title. Right. So, you 00:39:40.570 --> 00:39:43.050 know, I mean, I'm a master engineer. I love that 00:39:43.050 --> 00:39:45.369 stuff. Does the average person know about it? 00:39:46.130 --> 00:39:49.010 I don't know. And I feel like today, like, I 00:39:49.010 --> 00:39:52.110 feel like Spotify runs the market, them or Apple. 00:39:52.230 --> 00:39:59.000 Right. And Spotify does 0 .0 to better. the platform 00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:02.500 zero and i if you spotify you know whatever like 00:40:02.500 --> 00:40:04.760 i don't know where they're going to go next apple 00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:08.639 at least apple's gone into like atmos and you 00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:11.079 know you know they're whatever their high resolution 00:40:11.079 --> 00:40:13.219 files and stuff like that like they're trying 00:40:13.219 --> 00:40:16.239 and titles trying and some other platforms are 00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:18.579 trying but spotify just they're just sitting 00:40:18.579 --> 00:40:21.699 back and you know whatever files you send in 00:40:21.699 --> 00:40:24.989 we don't care we're gonna do our secret Processing 00:40:24.989 --> 00:40:27.230 to them and that's that and nobody has any say 00:40:27.230 --> 00:40:29.989 or control over any of it But you have to be 00:40:29.989 --> 00:40:32.090 on spotify if you want to be a successful artist, 00:40:32.309 --> 00:40:34.809 I guess I I don't even know what you know what 00:40:34.809 --> 00:40:36.889 i'm saying Like I i'm saying words and they don't 00:40:36.889 --> 00:40:38.989 really make sense, but they they do make like 00:40:38.989 --> 00:40:42.030 it's the words you have to say Um, I don't know. 00:40:42.130 --> 00:40:46.269 I don't know what's next i really hope high quality 00:40:46.269 --> 00:40:49.710 audio comes back like when cds got really big 00:40:49.710 --> 00:40:51.949 like they were making really good cd players 00:40:51.949 --> 00:40:54.789 with really good decoders and you know really 00:40:54.789 --> 00:40:57.090 good transports and you know they're making really 00:40:57.090 --> 00:41:01.630 good cds like high -end cds and i felt like damn 00:41:01.630 --> 00:41:03.449 this is like as a master engineer you're like 00:41:03.449 --> 00:41:06.010 yeah good you know really high -end stuff there 00:41:06.010 --> 00:41:07.730 are people like me who listen to really good 00:41:07.730 --> 00:41:09.769 you know they want to hear it really good and 00:41:09.769 --> 00:41:12.869 now today i don't even know i don't know what 00:41:12.869 --> 00:41:17.170 the the younger generation is listening to or 00:41:17.170 --> 00:41:20.389 what they care about. Well, one thing I know 00:41:20.389 --> 00:41:22.489 the younger generation is definitely interested 00:41:22.489 --> 00:41:25.389 in, I think this, you can't talk about the future 00:41:25.389 --> 00:41:29.230 of mastering without bringing up AI in some aspect. 00:41:29.570 --> 00:41:32.250 What are your thoughts on AI? Is it something 00:41:32.250 --> 00:41:34.769 that you use as a tool now like you would any 00:41:34.769 --> 00:41:37.150 processor in the past? Is it something that you 00:41:37.150 --> 00:41:39.750 look down your nose at? Is it something that 00:41:39.750 --> 00:41:42.860 gives you concern? Do you think people are just 00:41:42.860 --> 00:41:46.519 going to start dropping their songs into AI and 00:41:46.519 --> 00:41:51.940 saying, master this for me? So the Lander thing, 00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:55.340 when that came out, you know, the first AI mastering 00:41:55.340 --> 00:41:59.559 tool, I put something through it. I listened 00:41:59.559 --> 00:42:02.860 to it and I was not impressed. And, you know, 00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:05.059 a bunch of the guys here were doing it too. Like, 00:42:05.059 --> 00:42:07.320 hey, I put this song through, you know, like, 00:42:07.340 --> 00:42:10.159 or some people would say, hey, I mastered this 00:42:10.159 --> 00:42:13.659 in Lander. But I need you to do your thing. And 00:42:13.659 --> 00:42:15.840 I would not listen to the lander file until I 00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:19.159 was done mastering. And I swear, every single 00:42:19.159 --> 00:42:21.760 time I did it, I made it sound better. And it 00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:24.139 wasn't like just I said that. The client said 00:42:24.139 --> 00:42:25.840 it, the artist said it, whoever said it, everybody 00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:31.280 said it. AI years ago, so much. AI today, it's 00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:32.860 probably going to get better. It's probably going 00:42:32.860 --> 00:42:35.900 to shake the industry a little or do something. 00:42:36.559 --> 00:42:39.400 I don't think it's the end all, and I don't think 00:42:39.400 --> 00:42:41.900 it's going to replace people because people still 00:42:41.900 --> 00:42:46.420 make music for people where AI makes what people 00:42:46.420 --> 00:42:48.880 think they want. You know, like I don't, I don't 00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:51.000 know. I don't know how to phrase that yet, but 00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:53.820 it could work. I've used, I've tried AI stuff. 00:42:54.159 --> 00:42:57.300 I never liked the way it comes out. There's one 00:42:57.300 --> 00:43:00.679 plugin that I have. I won't say it, that they 00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:04.780 have an AI feature and. Every time I've clicked 00:43:04.780 --> 00:43:07.019 on it just to see what it does, it puts the same 00:43:07.019 --> 00:43:12.380 seven plugins on it in the same weird seven kind 00:43:12.380 --> 00:43:15.179 of things. And I'm like, when I work, I use two 00:43:15.179 --> 00:43:18.380 plugins, maybe three, and this use seven every 00:43:18.380 --> 00:43:21.380 time. So I kind of feel it was like, just like 00:43:21.380 --> 00:43:24.619 overload of like, you know, what would this guy 00:43:24.619 --> 00:43:26.039 do? What would this guy do? Maybe I would do 00:43:26.039 --> 00:43:27.760 this. Maybe I would do that. And I feel like 00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:30.849 that's a lot of. mastering today is like there's 00:43:30.849 --> 00:43:33.090 so much equipment available you know back in 00:43:33.090 --> 00:43:34.849 the day you had a room with gear in it analog 00:43:34.849 --> 00:43:36.889 gear and you can only have so much gear in your 00:43:36.889 --> 00:43:41.449 room and in the mastering chain so you learned 00:43:41.449 --> 00:43:44.869 how to eq and you know limit on one eq and one 00:43:44.869 --> 00:43:48.110 limiter or one compressor or one de -esser and 00:43:48.110 --> 00:43:51.269 today like you can put 20 plugins on one song 00:43:51.269 --> 00:43:53.010 and i feel like that's kind of the mentality 00:43:53.010 --> 00:43:55.849 of the younger generation because it's available 00:43:56.650 --> 00:43:58.469 Like, oh, I'll put this on and then I'll put 00:43:58.469 --> 00:44:00.510 this on instead of listening to the audio and 00:44:00.510 --> 00:44:03.630 trying to get it in its purest form. I think 00:44:03.630 --> 00:44:08.630 AI at some point will be something. Hopefully 00:44:08.630 --> 00:44:11.170 not while I'm working. You know, hopefully I'll 00:44:11.170 --> 00:44:13.050 be like, oh, I read today AI is taking over. 00:44:13.909 --> 00:44:17.050 Whatever. But it could be. I just feel like the 00:44:17.050 --> 00:44:22.050 human element is so special. Like, we keep trying 00:44:22.050 --> 00:44:26.539 to make. fake people and fake everything when 00:44:26.539 --> 00:44:31.719 we don't realize the beauty of One person's talent 00:44:31.719 --> 00:44:36.079 and how special that is, you know, like one singer 00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:40.380 like has so like back in the day Singers had 00:44:40.380 --> 00:44:42.960 to be singers. There was no vocal tuning. There 00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:45.420 was no whatever you could only comp vocal so 00:44:45.420 --> 00:44:47.800 many times So you really had to be a talented 00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:49.579 artist. You had to be a talented singer talented 00:44:49.579 --> 00:44:51.960 musician talented producer and I feel like today 00:44:52.599 --> 00:44:55.219 almost every celebrity has sung some record at 00:44:55.219 --> 00:44:57.559 some point you know or whatever because we can 00:44:57.559 --> 00:44:59.480 go in and tune them and do whatever and make 00:44:59.480 --> 00:45:03.280 music for them um there's whatever it is 1900 00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:07.019 submissions a day on spotify you know what i'm 00:45:07.019 --> 00:45:09.280 saying like back in the day that wasn't there 00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:11.840 because of the human element and i feel like 00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:15.980 ai is creating this you know just this stuff 00:45:15.980 --> 00:45:20.179 that It's big in numbers, but as far as like 00:45:20.179 --> 00:45:22.599 what it means to people and what's happening, 00:45:22.739 --> 00:45:25.300 it's not really happening. You know, if you get 00:45:25.300 --> 00:45:26.760 that, you know what I'm saying? Like, I kind 00:45:26.760 --> 00:45:29.420 of still feel like we are as humans, we make 00:45:29.420 --> 00:45:31.480 television so we can watch stuff and cry. We 00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:33.820 make movies. We do all this crazy shit that no 00:45:33.820 --> 00:45:36.260 other species does. You know, deer don't make 00:45:36.260 --> 00:45:39.199 movies. You know, zebras don't, you know, watch 00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:41.900 TV. You know, like we do all this crazy shit. 00:45:41.940 --> 00:45:44.239 We make fantasy. We make all this stuff to really 00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:47.019 push our emotions. And I feel like. Even though 00:45:47.019 --> 00:45:49.800 computers can put that stuff together, they can't 00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:52.260 do it in the way that we do it. We have crazy 00:45:52.260 --> 00:45:55.280 minds that work in crazy ways. You know, some 00:45:55.280 --> 00:45:56.800 of the greatest talent I've ever worked with 00:45:56.800 --> 00:46:00.239 are insane people. And until you can make AI 00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:01.980 insane, I don't think you're going to be able 00:46:01.980 --> 00:46:06.079 to, like, do that. We're a very special thing 00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:08.980 on this planet. You know, as far as art and music 00:46:08.980 --> 00:46:12.280 and film, it's very special. That it is. And 00:46:12.280 --> 00:46:15.460 Chris, this has been an absolute pleasure. I 00:46:15.460 --> 00:46:17.639 thank you so much for joining me on my weekly 00:46:17.639 --> 00:46:20.840 mixtape. Thank you. It's been really fun. And 00:46:20.840 --> 00:46:22.719 remember to those listening, you could find my 00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:24.900 weekly mixtape on almost all the social media 00:46:24.900 --> 00:46:28.159 haunts at. My Weekly Mixtape. 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