Hey everybody, this is Jim Laughlin, and you
are listening to My Weekly Mixtape with Brian
Colburn. It's an awesome show, so check it out.
Welcome to My Weekly Mixtape, a podcast that
takes the classic mixtape approach to building
a modern playlist. I'm your host, Brian Colburn.
Anyone that knows me personally knows I'm a huge
fan of live music. And one of my favorite genres
to catch live is the jam band scene because it
incorporates all of that in the moment spontaneity
and improvisation and kicks it up to its maximum
potential. And tonight on my weekly mixtape,
I'm honored to welcome Jim Laughlin, percussionist
for one of my favorite jam bands on the planet,
Moe to the show. Jim, thank you so much for joining
me tonight, man. All right, thank you for having
me. Actual pleasure to be here. Well, Jim, I'd
like to start by asking you the same question
I ask all my first -time guests, and that is,
what does the word mixtape mean to you? Man,
it reminds me of being in the early 80s and sitting
next to the radio with a cassette ready to go
and ready to hit record on the songs that I...
that I want, especially if they're doing like
countdowns or this week's top 10, all that stuff.
I would just sit there and record songs, record
songs off the radio. And just the mix of those
songs was the first mixtapes that I had ever
made was just straight from the radio and praying
that the DJ would say the name of the song and
the band, just in case I didn't know what it
was so I could find something new. Awesome. Well,
I'd like to first start by talking about the
evolution. of some Mo songs across the band's
30 -plus year history. An example being Spine
of a Dog. That track was originally recorded
for 1992's Fatboy and re -recorded for the band's
major label debut 1996's No Doy. And then there
was a new version that was recorded for 2010's
Smash Hits Vol. 1 that, in my humble opinion,
brings the feel and energy of a live Mo concert
into the studio rendition. Can you talk about
how some of the band's songs, like Spine, for
example, seem to evolve over the years? It's
funny because Spine and the Dog was the first
Mo song that really caught my ear when they sent
me that album to learn their songs from. So a
lot of the progression, especially from a lot
of the earlier material, the stuff off of Fatboy
and even Headseed, it really evolved. kind of
through having different drummers play the song
and different drummers approach the song. When
the song was originally written, it was pretty
straightforward. There wasn't really any solo
breaks in it or anything like that. It was just
Ray did this really cool tom beat that, you know,
he had rototoms and all this stuff, and it sounded
pretty wild, and it wasn't a traditional drum
beat. And the bass line, all that came to sort
of create this really unique song. And it was
always a great song live, despite being one of
our shorter or close to our shortest song. It
just the energy behind it. Everybody always enjoyed
that song. I mean, it was the pinball machine
song or, you know, the title was never correct,
but everybody had their own reference way to
reference the song. And then I started drumming
and the song evolved a little bit more. I changed
the beat a little bit. everybody sort of settled
into their parts and it really became a cohesive
work when it was recorded for no doy it was again
another drummer and they were just sort of trying
to catch the song again you know with a sort
of new fresh look on it and it was still a really
popular song even though at that point in time
it was probably eight years old something like
that seven eight years old And that, again, it
went out great. No Doy was a really big record
for the band. It really hooked a lot of people.
There's a lot of great songs on that album. And
then we became a five -piece when I started,
came back to the band as a percussionist. And
adding the percussion line to it, we added the
samba whistle, a small timbale break. Al's solo,
I think, was extended. like maybe to twice as
long as it had originally been. I can't remember
how long the original solo section was, but it
was very short. And when we were playing, when
I came back into the band and adding all that
stuff, and we started playing the song even more,
and then it became sort of a jam vehicle as well
for anything that was in a similar key or anything
like that, like the big spine buster. You can
go from a bunch of our songs into and out of
spine. You can put it at the beginning, at the
end. however you want to do it so again the song
it's just a workhorse of a song for us we use
it a lot we play it often and then and that last
change for smash hits is pretty much that's how
the song has been has been approached since then
even now having nate on the song we haven't really
changed the approach to the song or anything
like that it's still very very similar and when
we recorded that one most of the tracks When
we re -re -recorded it, I should say, most of
the tracks on Smash Hits were done live. Most
of the record is live in studio. There's a small
amount of overdubbing for stuff, vocals and solos.
There's a small amount of punch -ins and whatnot,
like studio stuff. Most of the basic tracks for
that entire record were recorded live because
that was kind of the goal. And at that point
in time, since then, rather, it's kind of been
our goal to capture as much of our live sound
in the studio as we possibly can. And I remember
in 2007 on Warts and All Volume 5, you had Spine
of a Dog woven through an entire set of songs.
It was Spine of a Dog, Mexico, Plane Crash, Spine
of a Dog, Yoda Little. Spine of a Dog and Buster,
lasting a touch over an hour and 40 minutes for
one set. Yeah. I mean, the song works like that.
It has specific parts to the song and you can
sort of, like I said, just mix it in to a bunch
of different stuff and it fits. Fits so well,
obviously, across the board over the years. Now,
going back to that Smash Hits album being we're
talking about and it was all done live. Two of
my three favorite most songs of all time are
redone on that album and are what I feel the
definitive versions of those songs being Rebobula
and Mexico, because I love hearing the extended
jam sequences that were always built into the
live show finally being incorporated into studio
recordings. Now, one thing I. I've noticed over
my years of being a jam band fan is the discussion
over who inherently prefers this live version
or this live version of a song over their studio
counterparts. And I feel like smash hits was
the best of both worlds for Mo in terms of studio
versus live recordings. Do you have a personal
preference? I don't know. It's really difficult
because in the studio, you get the opportunity
to do things that you just can't do live. The
studio itself is a whole other tool. All the
effects, the recording, how specific you can
get, how loose you can get. You can really go
in any direction that you want to in the studio.
I feel like we've made some great true studio
records. I feel like we've made some great live
records. And I feel like we've made some great
hybrid records. Smash Hits is definitely a hybrid.
type of album along with wormwood and um the
conch a lot of these like we did as much as we
can to be live in the studio for smash hits we
tried to keep as much of it as we can and we
also tried to frame the songs like we would in
a live situation as opposed to what the studio
recordings of those songs were when we recorded
smash hits also i was now a part of the band
and there was a lot of percussion heavy stuff
in a lot of those songs added but they made an
impact when we played the song live so we wanted
to really represent that that like you said the
evolution of these songs as well as you know
what what we do with them live and you know if
you look at wormwood and the conch we recorded
a lot of those Basic tracks actually came from
shows, like not just live in a studio, but on
a stage. And we recorded as much as we could
during shows and kept as much of that as we could
and put all that together. I feel like in the
jam band community, majority of jam band fans
would rather listen to live shows than studio
work. Because of the same reason that you said,
the open sections of the songs, the improv solos,
the segues, all that stuff that's happening,
that's the biggest appeal of this genre of music.
So since the early 2000s, I would say that's
kind of been a goal of ours, is to try to capture
as much... of our live show in a studio recording
as we can. And if we can't do that, we want to
use as much as the studio can offer us to make
this record then. Some songs don't always work
trying to catch a live recording of. Off of the
new records, We Are Not Normal, Pill Vacation
is a song that we needed all the studio to record
that song. you know that studio version of that
is it even almost becomes difficult to reproduce
live but that's the direction that that song
went and we've done it a couple times live but
then the world fell apart for a while so you
know it's something we'd like to get it back
but it takes you know i need um uh in that song
i'm using triggers and electronic drum pad as
well as playing the marimba and a couple other
things and just bouncing back and forth so to
redo that live is like i'm a very busy person
in a song like that it's a musical panic attack
pretty pretty much and just the sounds that are
in the song and in certain songs that we've recorded
over the years just i think Instead of an album
by album basis, I would actually go by a song
by song basis as to which ones I prefer studio
versus live. All right. Well, let's do that from
the first song. I'm just kidding. I want to bring
up. The Conscious Studio recording, because on
June 11th, 2005, my wife and I were in Portland,
Maine for the recording of the album at the State
Theater. And that was the show that three songs
into the set, someone pulled the fire alarm and
they evacuated the entire theater into the street.
Yeah, that was a blast. Very memorable show.
But that night I got to see and hear the live
quote unquote studio recordings for She, Wind
It Up, The Road and The Pit. What was the band's
mindset for taking such a unique approach to
a studio recording? Because usually in live recordings,
and I want to think back to like the kick drum
on Wormwood at the beginning of Not Coming Down,
you can actually hear some of the crowd noise
gated in the kick drum. To me, that was so unique
and so memorable. I'd love to know the band's
mindset behind this. Yeah, that was a really
cool album to record. It probably is the longest
amount of time it's ever taken us to record anything.
And it was exactly that. We needed to release
material. We had a bunch of new songs and we'd
been playing them live, all of them. And we needed
to release something because it had been a bit
since the last album. And just keeping in mind
that whole concept that playing live is not only
our strongest suit, it's also a majority of at
least what we feel our fans want to hear. So
what's the best way to release an album that
isn't necessarily a live album because that can
be a tightrope walk? you know that's why those
the live series is called warts and all because
we're not making any apologies for the mistakes
that are on this record this is just how it is
so you you know you bounce that line you can
also go do something like what rush does and
record an entire tour an entire year's worth
of shows and then whittle through and find the
best versions of the songs that you want to release
but that When you're doing three -hour shows
night after night after night, you end up logging
a tremendous amount of material. And to go through
that material would be just a massive headache.
And then there would just be a lot involved.
Also getting six guys to agree that, yes, that
song should be on the record, that version. So
we decided that we were going to record live,
like actually record live. So we built a recording
rig. Made it so we can actually track an album
live while we're playing the concert. And most
of it, I would say close to 90 % of it is from
those two Portland shows. We have crowd noises
on segues from that album of everybody chanting,
be on my side, I'll be on your side. We took
a different... weird stuff from the shows a lot
of the ambient room of the theater itself and
just said the way the sound traveled just through
the theater just like reverb type of sounds that
are just bled into the album throughout the whole
thing and another big thing is you know you get
a lot of adrenaline in you and stuff when you're
playing live so tempos the songs tend to be faster
and then we get in the studio and we sort of
slow things down and things know to make everything
click and fit and it's slow it the tempo is slower
where we really feel that it should be but we
jump on everything live because we're there to
have fun and have everybody have fun so tempos
are up and and that's capturing vinnie's tempos
for all those songs live all those drum tracks
are live on that record um there's no drum overdubs
punches anything like he might have fixed a couple
hi -hats but it's that's really those are the
tracks and it keeps the tempo up for everything
and then we even a lot of overdubs were done
in the state theater or there was another big
room that we played that we because so it sounded
similar as far as getting the guitar to sound
the same between what they had to fix or whatever
but so much of that record was captured live
and it was a great idea i you know it'd be really
nice to be able to do something like that again
but it like i said it took months months months
and months to record that record maybe like eight
months just to get everything together recording
wise never mind artwork like everything else
that goes behind releasing a record so it took
a long time and it's hard to We don't always
have that timetable to release material. We try
to do it as often as we can, and it gets to be
a difficult thing. We're not an album -a -year
band, or even two years, generally. We've had
stretches of five years between records. But
we're trying, and committing to something like
that, you're committing to a lot of time, you're
committing to a lot of work. a really good advantage
to the point because bill emmons who was our
monitor engineer at the time was also our engineer
for two albums prior to that in the studio he
worked on dither with us and uh the album before
i do believe so he had been with us a long time
and he's an amazing engineer he got all the sounds
that we wanted he knew how to catch everything
and he's he let us kind of produce the record
he basically worked with us to release a record
that we wanted to release, which was awesome.
They're both fantastic records. And just a small
sidebar here, that June 11th, 2005 date, I actually
saw you perform twice in one day because earlier
that afternoon, you did a show at the Ale House
with Mike Rocklin. It was a Rocklin and Lachlan
duo show. That's right. It was a unique bar because
there were swing sets. in the bar and people
were sitting, we were sitting on swing sets,
having a drink, watching your show. And my wife
and I still play Carolina rice and beans and
can't stand the heat all the time. He was such
an amazing time. I miss him and his music so
much. Yeah. Yeah. He, I, every day I think about
him every day. He was a great man and, and just
a great songwriter. He just really wrote great
songs. When I was streaming over COVID, I covered
his many as i can get out and like do a decent
job of and they're all like all his songs just
mean a lot to me it was difficult the first couple
years after he passed to listen to him i could
i really couldn't but now it's it it it break
like i hear his voice again i get to hear his
voice i get to hear the way he thinks and you
know i know him obviously he's my brother i've
known him my whole life and i know him so well
and All the little jokes inside the songs, all
the comments and the social comments and the
political comments and all that stuff that I
just know because I know who he is. And they're
all just so important to me. Well, I just wanted
to, I know it's a tough subject, but I just wanted
to tell you that there's still people out there
that love his music to this day and are very
thankful for his stuff. That's awesome. Actually,
thank you for that. That's just great, great
to hear. Changing gears here. One of the things
I love so much about Mo is the fact that the
band utilizes three very capable singers who
could be the lead singer of just a band by themselves
between Al, Rob, and Chuck, who I should add
that I'm also incredibly thrilled beyond words
to see Chuck back on the stage after what he's
been through the last few years. Oh, it warmed
my heart seeing his return. It brought tears
to my eyes because he's part of the family. Not
seeing him on stage was tough, but the band really,
got through and did it well, but having them
back, there's just no other way. It's amazing.
In terms of songwriting, let's take a song like
Haze, for example, from What Happened to the
Lalas. That was written and originally sang by
Al, but then in the studio, Rob recorded the
album version, and it's kind of lived that way
pretty much ever since. Can you talk about how
the songwriting process in Mo takes place and
how those kind of decisions are made? Yeah, Haze
is actually very unique as far as those decisions.
Al wrote the song. He wrote pretty much the song
completely. When he brought it in, I added the
vibraphone line, but he already had this drum
machine track underneath it. So that's why when
the chorus is kicking, I'm playing drum triggers
on the pads, just matching Vin, just trying to
thicken up the drum sound in the chorus, because
Al had this really cool... drum loop throughout
those parts, throughout the chorus sections of
the parts. I'm like, well, I'd really like to
keep that in there and still have Vin play. So
that's sort of how we worked that out. And he,
you know, we had played it for live for a while
with Al singing. And when we came in to record
What Happened to the Lalas, we had actually hired
a producer for that record. And it was the first
time in a long time that we had worked with an
actual producer producer someone who we were
willing to just give control to and let him make
a lot of the decisions so we didn't become this
six -headed monster you know pulling it everybody
in different ways and it was difficult we hadn't
done it in a while and you know it's it's as
a musician it's hard when someone tells you like
yeah don't play that play this like it's weird
you know And you have to sort of put your trust
in this person and say, okay, this is, you know,
we're trying to make a really good record and
they know what they're doing. So I would just
listen to them. And it was actually his idea
to have Rob sing the song. He loved the song.
And we had recorded a couple other songs at that
point in time. So he had heard everybody sing
and just in his head, Rob's voice. just fit the
song better the the mood of the song and how
it i don't want to say should sound but his voices
fit in that slot you know he thought that it
fit in that slot better and after recording it
and stuff and you know then we decided well this
is how we're going to play we're going to play
it with rob singing it and everything and it
sort of did after doing it long enough it clicked
and you know rob does a great job singing the
song and you know al did a great job of saying
of just stepping down and being like yeah rob
should sing this song he does a great job of
it and it did really didn't bother al but we
have other songs like akimbo when we wrote that
as another song that al wrote most of the song
but chuck wrote the lyrics and in rehearsal of
writing the song he chuck sort of just came up
with the vocal line the vocal melody and a bunch
of words and so it came out that way this is
a song that al wrote mostly wrote that chuck
is singing and then who you call and scared rob
literally wrote the song for chuck to sing like
as rob started writing the song on his own he
realized that he'd have a really difficult time
playing this bass line and singing this song
and it's high It was just out of his range for
him to be comfortable singing, especially, you
know, this was after Rob's recovery from throat
cancer. So, you know, he literally came in and
was like, these are the words, learn how to sing
it. This is the melody that you're going to sing.
You know, it's on you. You are singing this song.
I'm not even going to try. So it comes about,
most things come about in this band through different,
you know, very different. ways not every song
is approached the same not every song gets written
the same and it again this is just the culmination
of a bunch of guys working together for 30 years
who now we don't need a set pattern if someone
has an idea they can either rely on the other
guys to help finish that idea or they can bring
a completed idea in and everybody gets it and
everybody's like okay this is my job and this
is how we're going to do it It's still open to
suggestions. People still go, what if I did this
and all that? And there's no argument. No one
comes in like, no, this is, you have to do this.
That really doesn't happen. So just about everything
is a cognitive effect of us working together.
Well, this is going to be kind of a sound like
a silly question, but what happened to the Lala's?
I've always wondered. Was that title a joke in
the mixing of the album? Like they mix Suck a
Lemon and the La La's wasn't there and somehow
somebody came up and said, dude, what happened
to the La La's? That's actually exactly how it
happened. We were listening back to the end of
Suck a Lemon and John, the producer, was sitting
at the board and we're listening back to it when
we get to the end. and rob turned around he's
like what happened to the lalas and so john's
like oh yeah right and rewound it and popped
it in and there was you know a moment of laughter
because look it's a weird thing to say just a
weird sentence standing on its own and then it
ended up as the album title that's that was like
you know one of the pinnacle moments of that
record so it ended up being the title of the
album love it Well, one of the songs I want to
talk about from that album is a song you wrote,
Chromatic Nightmare, which features an incredible
vibraphone melody. And I'd love to know from
a musical standpoint of writing that song, is
that something where you initially write the
melody on a vibraphone? Or did you write the
music first and then come up with the melody
like lyrics to a song? Actually, so the main
melody of that song is played in the studio.
It's played on a xylophone. Oh, geez. Sorry.
it was written on a marimba but the vibraphone
line in the in the middle that chuck and i play
together and then chuck solos over yeah yeah
that i had written it was maybe a year before
i think we were doing a westwood one like a national
brady mpr type of radio broadcast i forget which
it was one of the bigger ones i forget which
one it was and um they came in and the guy asked
he's like after we did the show he asked me he
said can you play just a couple music interludes
we want to use the vibraphone for musical interludes
throughout the show like coming back from commercials
and stuff like that so i i was like sure and
i went in and i just improvised a handful of
little 30 second things and one of them happened
to be that and that was the one that stuck in
my head And I just had it in my head for years.
So when I was home and I wrote the melody for
Chromatic Nightmare and I brought it in and we
were working on the song with Mo and we needed
something in the middle. It couldn't just be
this weird polka thing. So I started playing
that line and Chuck... started matching the line
with me and vin came up with like a three four
almost swing or six eight swing kind of beat
for it and everything just clicked and the chords
outline themselves right there you know it's
just f minor b minor really easy and we opened
that section up to let chuck play over and it
ended up being you know really the part of the
song that for me stands out on that song because
you have this really bizarre sort of Kind of
a minor -y, weird, circus Tim Burton thing. Yeah.
That goes into this really nice swing, minor
swing feel for Chuck to play over, and he tears
it up every time. And then you come back into
the weirdness of it. And the thing that surprised
me, I wrote the song for maybe the Acid Lemonade
Test show or something like that, the same show
I think Vin wrote Mar De Ma for. And, you know,
we wanted new songs for the shows, and those
guys wanted Vin and I to write a song, so this
is what we came up with. And we played it a couple
times after the show and stuff like that. And
the producer, John, when we sent him all this
new stuff, that was one of the songs he picked
for the record. And I was like, are you kidding
me? Really? Okay. And, you know, we went in and
recorded it, and he... Like I said, it was originally
written on a marimba. I didn't have a marimba
on the road at the time. I just had my vibraphone
and a xylophone. And I brought my marimba into
the studio to record the song and everything.
And he's like, no, it's too big sounding. He's
like, I want something pokey, like plinky or
whatever. And I was like, I have a, so I could
set the xylophone up and play that with a set
of hard mounts. And he's like, that's it. That's
the sound. And boom. That was one of the easier
songs, despite that the melody is difficult to
play. I have a tough time with it live sometimes.
It's not easy. But that song came together just
incredibly fast. And we had all these huge drums
and weird percussion instruments to work in the
breakdown and everything about it just worked
out so well. I'm really happy with how that one
actually came out. In the studio, like that's
a great studio version of a song. Really, really
is. Now, following up on something we talked
about earlier, the band's different approaches
to recording and a lot of the songs like you
mentioned for Wormwood and the Conch were road
tested songs. However, in 2007, for the Sticks
and Stones album, you guys rented out a church
and cathedral in New England to record. And you
came up with songs like Deep This Time and Zed
Not Z that were. written there as well as two
songs all roads lead to home and conviction song
that were already road tested but for the most
part that album was all done prior to the mo
fan base hearing it was there a reason behind
this change of mindset for this one album um
a lot of it was because we had never done that
as the first time we had ever recorded a record
that no one had heard yet no one had heard any
of the songs like you said except for the two
the two songs and it was originally supposed
to be a majority acoustic album i remember that
yeah you know i had bought all these drums uh
hand drums and stuff for the record and we sort
of geared up and then we showed up got in set
up in the church and started playing and the
stuff that sort of started coming out from us
jamming were really more of these kind of americana
rock Songs and they didn't they just worked better
electric than they did with any kind of acoustic
approach and the I Think at least three of those
songs queen of everything deep this time and
At least one other song until so all the music
was Played and recorded and we were just titling
them rock riff number one rock riff number two
rock riff number three and then Al and Rob had
just sort of divided up the songs that didn't
have titles and didn't have words yet and they
went and Wrote the lyrics and that's where the
titles of the songs even came to be they weren't
They didn't exist. We pretty much had the songs
done from beginning to end before any lyrics
were written for any of those. And they went
up to their little lofts and weird places we
were sleeping and wrote out the lyrics for the
songs and came in and did the vocals. And then
now all of a sudden the songs had titles and
they were done. And it was awesome. That was
another super unique recording experience for
us. Because of that, because we had nothing.
We went in with nothing but two songs and came
out with an entire album and a solid record.
They're not the big jammy songs that we have
and even still live, they don't open up. Zed
Not Z opens up a little bit, but most of them
are kind of played as they are. We use them as
segues. Into and out of them easily, but the
structures of those songs haven't really changed
much in close to 20 years. Well, while we're
on the studio thing, I want to pivot from Mo
for a brief second and talk about your 2020 studio
album Below the Surface, which as a different
studio setting, you wrote and recorded all by
yourself along with your wife. The opening track,
The Brass Ring, is a heavy prog rocker, which
gives me this. unfreeze mcgee and rush vibe while
still being unique and original on its own personally
just throwing this out into the universe i feel
like it could fit really well in a most set coupled
up against bullet but i'd love to hear about
the process of recording that album because this
is again you're not doing this with anybody you're
playing everything on this album yeah yeah it
was uh So our tour got canceled because of COVID.
We were out west. And for the beginning of it,
we were kind of keeping ahead of it. And then
it caught us in Salt Lake. So we all flew home.
And, you know, at first, I think like everybody,
no one, everyone was like, oh, two weeks. Yeah,
no problem. This will be over in no time and
this and that. And then it wasn't. And so people
started streaming and all this stuff online.
And, you know, Rob and Al had started streaming
little acoustic shows at their houses and stuff
and giving lessons and anything we could do for
money. So I did my first stream and all I did
was just go live on Instagram and improv a bunch
of vibraphone stuff over some pre -programmed
drum pad beats. and it was pretty cool you know
it was fun to do and a lot of people seemed to
enjoy it and a buddy of mine called me the next
day and he's like what what are you doing like
he's like you seriously do you want to continue
to do that like are you going to keep streaming
and i was like yeah he's like okay look this
is how you have to do it and he told me everything
about how to get my rig up how i can use uh logic
and all my input channels and stuff that i have
in at home and actually stream a show on facebook
and stuff so i started doing that i did that
a couple times and i realized i don't have enough
material you know the the people from busking
down the house called me and and she was like
can you do like two hours on wednesday night
and i was like god two hours no i can't there's
no way so about a month later i wrote a bunch
of songs and started recording this stuff and
about a month later i i got back in touch with
them like okay i can do this now and i had just
about enough material to cover two hours and
a lot of that was like my brother's songs and
a bunch of just acoustic songs tom wait songs
um billy joel stuff i was doing whatever i could
to fill the time with these little originals
and i just fell in love with recording this stuff
that i was doing which was mainly just for the
streams and Then I started getting kind of adept
at doing this recording stuff and figuring out
what I needed to do and how to get stuff to sound
the way I wanted to sound and all that stuff.
So I had four songs that I thought were really
strong. I spent a lot of time recording them.
And this was the original EP, the first, which
has Edwin, the rhythms. i can't remember the
name of my yesterday today and tomorrow and uh
down to this so i had these four songs that were
really solid and and i got good recordings of
them and i sent them up to tank studios to have
those guys because we that's where we had recorded
the last two records with mo so i sent them to
ben at tank studios i asked can you mix these
and and master them and they did a great job
doing both of those things and i released it
on bandcamp And it did fairly well. And that
whole time I was still just recording. Now I
just had all this stuff. And I made a deal with
myself. I said, I'm not going to start a new
project until I finish the project that I'm working
on. And that was probably the biggest thing for
me was to make that a rule. Because I, up to
that point, have 60 things that I started and
never finished. Just riffs and hooks and all
this stuff that just never came to be. And by
the end of it, I had probably written probably
20, 25 songs and recorded all of them. So I took
all the songs that ended up becoming Below the
Surface and really put in a lot of time into
mixing and mastering those myself. And one of
the biggest things was after recording the first
four songs, I realized like... I need to get
better at the guitar because everybody wants
to hear the guitar. Like no one really wants
to hear this metal album with a bunch of vibraphone
because that's just kind of weird. So I sort
of needed to like offset that. So I learned,
I put a lot of time in and learned how to play
the guitar and record a guitar and make it sound
good. And that was a big thing for me. It opened
up a lot of doors and it enabled me to record
a lot of different. styles of music that i just
wouldn't have been able to do without learning
how to play and then the album was basically
born of of all that you know it's a reflection
of everything that was kind of happening at the
time um everything that was going on with covid
with just the craziness that this country was
starting to go through and then even myself my
own head and all the craziness that was going
on in there at the time so it was this huge cathartic
thing as well for me and um throughout the recording
the thing my wife brenda just you know she'd
come down and hang out for a bit and sudden she's
just noticing all these little things and she
started to just record her own stuff on her ipad
and kind of learned taught herself sort of how
to produce a song and how to make a song work
so she just kept coming down in the beginning
giving these little you know she'd just say like
one little thing and i'm like yeah yeah and she'd
go back upstairs and then i'd do it i'd be like
oh my god that worked great you know and then
she's giving me like little tips on you know
you need to sing melodies not like because i
was doing all this like coming with monotone
less claypool kind of vocal stuff and she's you
know if you look take this note and sing it up
here and take this one and go down and do this
and then all that started working i'm like holy
cow you know by the time i had finished actually
putting together those songs to release it I'm
getting ready to post it on Bandcamp and to get
it streaming. I realized she produced half of
this record without even trying. It was wild.
It was so much fun to record. She has enough
songs to release an album on her own now out
of all of it. It's crazy, but it was a blast.
Well, I know the morons listening to this episode
are thinking to themselves, you guys have gone
a long time and you're not talking about the
live music. So let's get into that for a little
bit. You got with 13 studio albums to pull from
and taking into account the fact that the band
opens up songs into extended jams during a live
performance. How does the band decide each and
every night? what songs are going to make the
cut? Because I'm sure if you asked 10 different
Mo fans what their idea of a Killer Mo show would
be, you're getting 10 different answers. Oh,
absolutely. So right now, the three main setlist
writers are Vin, Rob, and Al. So we have a master
song list, obviously. That's everything we've
ever done, including every cover we've ever done.
um every original we've ever done none of them
are really crossed off but some of them you know
don't don't ghetto get used anymore really to
sort of and right now we're we're unfortunately
dealing with a cut down working list because
nate is learning as many songs as he possibly
can and to get comfortable on them and because
we have a catalog that goes back 30 years so
right there's so much stuff there are songs that
he's never heard that aren't on albums that aren't
you know you have to dig through live shows to
find and all this stuff and and I mean he does
an amazing job and he he doesn't want to just
sort of be like yeah I kind of got it let's do
it because it's just not doing justice to the
material you know that that and that's first
and foremost what needs to happen you need to
do justice to the material you can't just throw
a song out there just because we haven't done
it in a while and just it'll just sound like
crap and No one is going to like that. So the
things that are always taken into account are
basically, obviously, the flow of the show, how
you want a show to sort of go from beginning
to end, where you want your peaks to be, where
you want your kind of, not lulls, but the softer
sections of the shows. You need to build in little
rests because everybody can't. We're too old
to play it up -tempo for three hours these days.
um so you gotta sort of write those in it and
so you have to pay attention to the keys the
songs are in as well as the tempo and the feel
of these songs you can't be jumping around tempo
wise some time signature changes to other ones
are difficult like it's hard to go from a song
in four to a song in seven like trying to segue
into ghost of ralph's mom is it's next to impossible
the switch is just too fast and We've tried it
and failed on a couple of occasions. It's worked
on a couple of occasions, but overall, it's probably
not the best idea. And then keys. You don't want
to have these weird cross keys or have like a
dissonance of going from one song to another.
We create tension, but it doesn't want to be
this fumble through of dissonance where nobody's
really at the same place at the same time. We
kind of want to all move together from one point
to another. So if it's an easier, you know, we
try to make the key changes sort of as basic
as possible. Relative majors, you know, switch
between relative keys or parallel keys is usually
the easiest way to go. And all that's taken into
consideration when they write these set lists.
Sometimes they take into consideration, you know,
if we're playing in D .C., we're probably going
to play Kyle's song, you know, things like that.
If we know certain people are coming to shows,
we'll place songs for them. Or if we get requests
that are that mean something to some people.
And you play New York City in like Canada, right?
Right. That's the one song that New York City
is the one song that has been played in odd places.
And like someone will write it. And then after
the show, be like, why? Why do we play? What
was this? It was there for a reason. But we try
to do funny shit like that. But mostly, we want
to make the most coherent and enjoyable song.
The set lists are going to get more diverse.
I know right now, some people are slightly bummed
that we have such a short working list because
they've had decades of us working off this 100
plus, 150 plus song list. That just doesn't exist.
I mean, it exists. We just don't have everything
down again. Chuck needs to get back. He's relearning
songs left and right. The guy is breaking his
ass. It's amazing what he has accomplished to
this point. For Nate, he just has to learn the
songs. For Chuck, he has to relearn songs. He
has to relearn how to play them. because it's
not the same for him as it used to be. His hands
just do not work the same way yet that they used
to. So he has to think of ways to be able to
play this song again. And it's going to be different,
and we have to work with these differences, and
he has to accept the differences and just be
able to kind of get through it. And the more
times he gets through it, the more comfortable
he gets and the better it sounds. So that's kind
of what we're going through right now. We got,
you know... two guys in the band who have been
just working their asses off to get this material
up and running as quick as possible you know
we've defaulted to a bunch of new covers because
honestly covers can sometimes be just we can
throw it together in a sound check and it's good
to go but a lot of our own material we want it
to gel we want nate to fit in like really well
and chuck to get comfortable again so that takes
sound check after sound check just doing the
song eight or ten times and then going on and
doing the rest of the stuff that we have to to
get that show for that night but then we'll do
that song again the next day a bunch of times
just keep getting it so it's under people's belts
and under people's fingers and that's where we're
at right now as far as everything that we're
working and dealing with and that's the way we
need to address live shows for the moment well
as a fan of your live show one thing that blows
me away every single time i see you is how the
band musically communicates on stage during a
live show obviously you're not going out there
and saying okay so we're going to jam this part
for 74 measures and then go and it the songs
just organically unfold as you're playing them
Does that really amount to years of learning
each other's musical tells on stage? Because
that's not something that you can just get into
a room with a bunch of musicians and pull off
so effortlessly. No, it's not. And yeah, that's
pretty much it. I mean, we've played with each
other for so long. I know exactly when Vin's
going to fill. I know almost what he's going
to play. I know. When Al's bringing a solo up,
I know where he's going. I know when he's going
to hit the peak. I know when it's going to come
back down. The same thing with Chuck. I know
when Rob is going to turn a segue into the next
song. You just feel it. At this point, if it
were possible, we could play a show from our
basements and not have to see each other. It
really wouldn't be altogether that difficult.
And that's the thing we need Nate to get into.
I mean, he's played with us long enough. He knows
our stylings. He knows some of our tendencies
and habits. But he's not at that point where
it's almost telecommunication. A lot of times
we're like, all right, we need a visual cue on
this. And if it's from Al or Chuck, I don't need
a visual cue. I know when they're turning around
and looking. Everybody kind of just knows. and
that it is it's come from and not just honestly
not just playing with each other for this long
but like living with each other for this long
and knowing each other for this long like i don't
just know what these guys are going to do on
stage you know i know what they do throughout
an entire day from when they wake up to when
they go to sleep so there's definitely an innate
feeling of just knowing where everything's kind
of going and you know there'll be surprises every
once in a while and you kind of hope for them
after a while like if someone tosses a curveball
you usually see everybody smile on the stage
because like yeah that was nice so you kind of
want those surprises but they don't happen all
that often and unless someone has like just comes
up with an idea on the spot and that's happens
when we're doing new stuff like things will change
constantly on if it's a new song constantly on
a night to night basis the solo on blue jeans
pizza like chuck's cue to get out of it has always
been this he just constantly changes it like
he has one thing that he plays that's kind of
short but then he does all these teases of the
outro And that is always flipping around and
he's trying to do new stuff with it. So some
nights he'll be looking and everyone's like,
you haven't actually played the thing yet. So
it can be interesting live. Some weird things
can definitely happen. But they're usually, like
I said, it's usually enjoyable and not like,
oh God, of course. Well, over the years, you
mentioned this earlier, the band has pulled off
some epic covers that fit seamlessly into the
band's original material. And one of my favorites
I want to bring up just for a selfishly personal
reason was the Roseland Ballroom Run of 2005.
Because I promised one of my closest friends
that I would mention this. We went to college
together and the Roseland Ballroom Run of 2005
was my wedding present. from my buddy dylan and
that is the one wedding present that my wife
says i have never forgotten i don't know my aunts
and uncles have given me different amounts of
money and gifts and different and i don't remember
any of that i remember the mo run of 2005 at
the roseland good man that weekend the band broke
out a cover of electric light orchestra's evil
woman to this day i feel like that version rivals
the original and now with nate in the band I
just want to use this moment to kind of suggest
that. And maybe to say, hey, if the band wants
to throw up that 2005 Roseland Ballroom run on
nugs .net, I would not argue that. I would love
to see that there. I'm trying to think of how
we're recording at the time. It is very possible
that we have the show, like our own copy of the
show, a board copy or even a track copy. It's
possible. the roseland shows were always all
i mean i miss that place me too like seeing shows
there and and playing there playing there was
a huge thing for me i grew up right outside of
the city and um you know everybody knew the venue
like i knew the venue growing up my father knew
the venue from ballroom dancing and like when
he was a kid he grew up in manhattan and from
when it was actually a ballroom And playing there,
my friends would come down to those shows from
Long Island. My family got to come to the shows.
I got to bring my parents to watch me play at
the Roseland Ballroom and all that stuff. It
was such a special place for me. And every time
we played there, at least to my recollection,
it was an amazing show. Some of the best shows
we've ever done have been at Roseland Ballroom.
I'm trying to think of why we did Evil Woman.
It just seems like there had to be a reason that
we picked that song, and I can't for the life
of me think of what it is. I think Al was on
his keys that night, and I think he was playing
around with them throughout the set a little
more than normal, and it just kind of came out
of left field. But Rob's vocals on it were so
goddamn perfect that the rendition just, to this
day, it's been like my holy grail of I hope they
release it at some point. One of the things that
we're actually doing now, especially with the
re -release of Tin Cans and Car Tires, the special
vinyl re -release that's coming out, also just
having been around for so long, and we're sort
of behind the eight ball as far as releases have
gone. But that's one of the things that we're
trying to do is find shows. like older shows
and stuff that we have really good releasable
recordings of and get them out whether it's on
nugs or if we end up printing it to vinyl or
just anything like that we're we're definitely
trying to get a lot of what some people would
consider classic shows and actually make them
official releases so that would be a great one
to look into actually because around that time
like i said we were recording a lot of stuff
live so i'd have to figure out If we have that
show, cause that would be cool. If you do, I
promise you day one buyer right here. What, what
year was it again? Sorry. 2005, 2005. And that
was like the Thanksgiving weekend. Thanksgiving
weekend. Yep. Yep. Yep. So you talked about this
earlier. There are a ton of most songs throughout
the years that are incorporated into live shows,
but never appeared on a studio recording. So
off the top of my head, I'm thinking of things
like George. Bear Song, Tijuana Donkey Show.
Those songs were on the Warts and All series.
But then you have tracks like Johnny Lineup that
never appeared on even a live release. They're
just kind of these live breakouts. Is there a
reason for this? And more importantly, do any
of these tracks exist in studio form? Johnny
Lineup does not. That has definitely not ever
been studio recorded. That was... okay originally
i mean that's an old that song predates myself
that's like then original the original four piece
song and it was just kind of um when i came into
the band we started using it sort of as a time
filler to a degree because it's mostly solos
the words never change the song just goes to
the same exact cycle but the interesting part
about the song is the solo sections in the song
and we still there's no order to the solo sections
there's no rules whoever jumps on it first is
the first soloist and that starts the whole cycle
that's going to happen and they just play until
they're done and then it'll go back into the
lyrics and the melody and then we'll come back
out and someone else will just start playing
it's the only song we don't like have an order
of solos or who's going to solo in it or anything.
It's one of my favorite songs to solo over, so
I try to jump in as fast as I can in the beginning.
But it was always just this kind of like a mellow
spot in the show where we get to relax and sort
of stretch our legs for a little while. It's
not fast. It's easy to play over. We can have
guests up to play over it if we want, and they
don't have to do anything except solo. And that...
There's a handful of songs that we've used for
that over the years, and a lot of those haven't
made it onto recordings. Meat has its own recording,
but that's a whole different thing. But it was
one of those songs that we never thought we'd
do a good job of in the studio. After I had left
the band as the drummer, I think it's Mazer plays
on that one. But they just happened to be rolling
while they were playing the song kind of to warm
up or whatever. And it ended up being like 40
something minutes. 46 minutes and 10 seconds.
So it was like, well, why don't we release it
as a limited edition CD? And sure. And that's
how, you know, Meat came out. I've always wondered
one thing about that one. Can you tell me the
story behind Al's lyric? Actually, that song
was also actually written before. So I don't
really know. I think it's kind of just a tongue
in cheek joke as to Al was a vegan when he wrote
it. So that's my biggest guess is it's just a
kind of tongue in cheek joke by Al to just scream
meat into a microphone and have that be the only
thing said in an entire song. We used to have
a song called 30 -06 that was very similar. But
that was more along the lines of kind of, it
was similar to that Pink Floyd song, Interstellar
Overdrive. Oh, yeah. Okay. Where there really
weren't any words. It was just like this kind
of chant staring down the barrel of a 30 -06.
And there was a couple other lines to it. But
most of the song was just this dark. open jam.
And, you know, when we used to play at Broadway
Joe's and had to play from midnight till three
or four in the morning, well, we can do this
for 25 minutes. So the house lost its advantage.
Exactly. Keep the beer flowing and we're just
going to keep playing and we'll stretch this
one out. We'll stretch this one out. We'll stretch
this one out and we have a full show. And a lot
of those songs just never kind of dawned on us
to record. Nevermind. they weren't written for
that reason at all. Yeah. I feel like a song
like George would make a perfect studio cut.
I've always felt that way. That's one that I
really hope the band does come around to on a
studio cut for. Yeah, that would be, I don't,
some songs I, it's like that. Like, I'm not exactly
sure why we never recorded George. I know it
was kind of written at a weird time between albums
and Al sort of had this idea of connecting that.
Obviously, there's parts in George that are in
McBain. He wanted one other song, so it would
be a trilogy. None of the songs, lyrically or
anything, having anything to do with each other,
but just thematically and musically connected.
The third song has never been done. You get lost
in these things. Al's just this ridiculously
prolific songwriter. So he just keeps moving.
He just does not stop. And he writes and writes
and writes and writes. And if we don't do it,
he's fine with it because he's going to write
10 more songs in the next couple months and just
keep moving and moving and moving. And a lot
of stuff, unfortunately, sort of falls by the
wayside because we just don't have time to keep
this song as sharp as... These other songs and
you know, we need some kind of reaction Even
if we've only played the song like three or four
times live there needs to be some type of reaction
to it If there's not it's hard to sort of put
a lot more into this song and make it like yeah
We're gonna play this all the time some songs
have built up to that point like ATL and Some
songs just never kind of got there as it were
They're still around. We still sort of know them.
We can bring them back if need be but There's
a lot of other stuff that we want to accomplish
and do. So it's a give and take thing. You kind
of sacrifice some things to get some other new
stuff. Is there a song that you consider to be
the fan favorite Motune? Wow. Rebubule is huge.
We have a bunch of songs that basically we call
the four day or four show rotation songs. So
we try to go three days at minimum without repeating
songs. The four -day songs are the big songs.
So they include Rebubula, Buster, St. Augustine,
Mexico, and there's a couple others that I can't
think of off the top of my head. But those songs
to me are definitely... The songs that have nicknames
are the songs that... ever since saint augustine
has been written we constantly hear play goddess
light like or some you know plane crash same
things every people are constantly like too high
you play too hard and so those those are the
songs that i i mean the songs that have reached
out and grabbed people and brought them to see
us like most of those the four day songs are
probably the songs that most people can point
to and say this is the song that That hooked
me. Like, this is the song that got me into Mo.
Very true. Yeah. They consider that the perennial
or the ultimate Mo song, like what Mo is. For
me, it's hard because they're all, you know,
I look at them all as like my family of songs.
And, you know, there are ones that I, like I
said, there's ones I love to play live more than
other ones. There's other ones that I think came
out as far better studio recordings than other
ones. Some of them you love to hate. their hate
to love. I was just going to bounce off that
and say, do you have a personal favorite, even
if it's just right now to play? Um, it's usually
the, the newer stuff I'll always, to me, I always
like playing obviously time at McBain and the
songs that I get to solo in are just fun. Cause
I, cause I get to solo in them, but Skitch and
Buffalo is just awesome. Like it's a great song.
I can't. Hear it without just remembering You
know he's writing about the time that we lived
there and it was it's a song that affects all
of us that we all can relate to like really closely
and It's a great song. I mean from the intro
to the vocal diverse groove to the solo section
Like all of it is just really really cool song
and it's a blast to play i get to play a couple
different instruments in it and the feel of it
is just really fun so that's one of my favorites
like the a lot of the new ones uh along for the
ride that's another one that's just so fun to
play and um so it's it's usually the new ones
that the fresher ones and stuff that i really
that i really enjoy and any of the ones that
i consider are uh as like a challenge and jazz
cigarette is it's like a personal thing for me
to have play it right and play it well because
i wrote this and i want it to be good like such
a great tune now it's been a few years since
we've had an official mo down festival and unfortunately
even longer since there's been a snow down festival
is there any chance that we're going to see a
return of either of these major mo festivals
at any point in the future There's always a chance.
I mean, we always want to do them, and we're
always trying to figure out how. We really, really
want to get Modem back going again. We need dates.
It's hard to find dates for festivals these days
because it seems that everyone has their own
specific weekend and everything, and it's hard
to go back to Labor Day because ADK has been
doing so well, and we have a great time playing
there. So it's got to be... You know, we have
to find a good date in the summer and we need
a good location. There's some new places in upstate
New York that are looking really promising. We'd
still use Chuggy Cheo and that whole gang. And
it'll be somewhere in that area is what we're
looking to do. But we definitely want to do it.
And Snowdown, again, we love it. We love doing
it. It's going to happen again. I don't think
that we can... do these things on a yearly basis
there are things that we have to take advantage
of when the opportunity is presented to us and
be able to do it and pull it off the amount of
lead up time for stuff like this to ticket sales
and announcements and get you know getting the
venues ahead of time and all this stuff making
sure the production is good and the on -site
teams are good and everything it's a lot of work
and you know we we've always been basically what
you'd consider just a family -owned business
we don't have a ton of muscle behind us it's
always us and it's always on us to do it both
you know financially and logistically so at this
point it's difficult to make commitments to a
yearly thing but any time that we can bring it
back like i said any opportunity we have to do
it it will be done um because we love we love
doing them and we love going to them And I will
say for Snowdown, as my bones get older, sleeping
in the hotel across the street in Rutland, Vermont
from the arena, I'm not going to lie, was a nice
perk to have a nice, comfortable bed to sleep
in. I can absolutely relate. So the last sets
of new Mo material came out in 2020 in the form
of two albums. We talked about This Is Not We
Are and Not Normal. Is the band currently working
on any new studio material now that Chuck is
back in the fold and with Nate there? And maybe
can you share some information on when fans can
expect a new Mo album? We have, well, we have
four songs that were already have been playing
live to Nate songs and to Rob songs. All of them
are super solid songs and you know, we're, we're
getting the legs on them and we're, and we're
getting them to gel and just solidifying them.
We will be going into writing sessions coming
up, hopefully by the end of the year. We're already
kind of booked through till March. And then after
that is we are reassessing, you know, what we
need to do for the next year and stuff. But the
goal is to include studio time to start getting
stuff recorded. And then the biggest thing is
we have to figure out the most effective way
to release an album in the music environment
today because it's really difficult. It's hard
to spend a boatload of money to go into a studio
and do recordings and not know how you're going
to recoup any of it because streaming's not going
to do that for us. We have to release something
physical. Nobody buys CDs. Vinyl is doing pretty
good. I was going to say, I own 4 ,500 CDs, so
I can promise you that if CD sales ever come
back, it's because of me. I wouldn't mind seeing
them come back, actually. It was a great way
to release a really good sounding physical medium.
Amen. And not everybody has turntables or even
the system to make a turntable sound really good.
it's that's just they're really expensive these
days man you try to put together like a old 70s
hi -fi rig and it's you're in deep all of a sudden
you better start buying albums because you just
invested a lot of money yep so we need to figure
out a really good way to release a record and
something that's going to have a lot of push
behind it and we are the source of that push
we have so much social media and stuff at our
fingertips but you know we're gen xers man we're
not like the slickest social media people we
do what we can and a little bit of what we're
told by people who know a lot better than us
but that's going to be have to be a really major
part of pushing this album so it is in the forefront
of our mind recording especially since we have
nate and you know anytime you have kind of a
new you know when i came back into the band recording
was on the front of the list like we need something
with the new guy kind of mentality you know this
is a whole new thing we need to get something
out so it's definitely on the forefront of our
mind and we're looking at next year to be able
to release something at some time next year but
that being said we also have to learn all our
old material and do that at the same time as
writing new material and it's a lot on both ends
to do We're going to do our best. You know, one,
either the release of new material might get
pushed back a little bit or the amount or, you
know, our worksheet won't grow as fast as we
want. One or the other is going to happen. We're
going to really do our best to hit a happy medium
of those two things and have old material and
be able to offer up some type of new content
next year. That's the goal, at least. All right.
And for my final question, I'm going to do something
that might. come across easy for me but i've
been painstakingly thinking about this for the
last i don't know two weeks leading up to this
interview so it might be a tough question for
you but if i had to sum up mo's musical legacy
in three songs it would be mexico four and rebubula
giving props to al chuck and rob across the board
so jim as a member of mo I'd like to pose the
same question to you. If you had to sum up the
band's musical legacy of 30 plus years in three
songs, which three would you choose and why?
Oh, wow. Well, Spine, really for all the reasons
I had mentioned earlier, it was our first kind
of big hit, as it were. It was the first song
that people really latched onto off that first
record. The other songs were fun and everything,
but Spine just, it hooked, man. It has a great
hook. It's catchy. It kind of got us forward.
I don't know if I can go by writer or by sort
of era. Probably Plane Crash would be the next
one. It was... Probably the first major jam vehicle
inside and of itself that we had. When I first
came back into the band and we were playing that
song, some of Al's solos would hit the 30 -minute
mark. You just didn't know what was going to
happen in the middle of the solo once it started.
It could go literally anywhere. It could turn
into another song without trying. It used to
go all over the place in the middle, and it was
an experience, man. It was like this. big huge
thing and the song would clock in at that 30
40 minute area and it was probably a big another
demarcation that song made was vin and i just
playing together within a song you know we trade
off a bunch of fills in that song there's the
groove of it and everything with that sort of
latin feel and it has to lock and it represented
a lot of what was happening at the time and then
lastly I'd probably pick something off a new
record like Skitchin' Buffalo. It has that whole
kind of looking back after all this time. Lyrically,
it references back to the days that we started
and everything we went through when we started
and all the people we knew back then. And musically,
it is such a far cry from what we were back then
as to what we actually... do now and how we've
grown just as musicians and songwriters and all
of that. So that would probably be the three
of the bigger songs throughout our career, I
would think. Well, Jim, this has been truly an
amazing experience for me. Thank you for many,
many, many years of amazing live musical memories
for my wife and I. And more importantly, thank
you for joining me tonight on My Weekly Mixtape.
Oh, thank you for having me, man. It was a great
time being here, and I'm glad I could help. And
thank you for coming to all these shows. That's
just awesome. And I'll be coming to many more
in the future. Don't you worry about it. Right
on. And I want to also thank, as always, the
Mixtapers for tuning in tonight. Always remember
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And until next time, enjoy the tunes.