Hi, my name is Kay Hanley from Letters to Cleo,
and you are listening to My Weekly Mixtape with
Brian Colburn. Welcome to My Weekly Mixtape,
a podcast that takes the classic mixtape approach
to building a modern playlist. I'm your host,
Brian Colburn. Tonight, I'm honored to welcome
the incredible Kay Hanley, lead singer of Letters
to Cleo to the show. Kay, thank you so much for
taking the time to talk music with me today.
I'm happy to be here, Brian. Well, I'd like to
start by asking you the same question I ask all
of my first time guests, and that is, what does
the word mixtape mean to you? Oh, it means romance
and excitement and puppy love and friendship
and yeah, all good things. But it reminds me
of my youth. 100%. Now, my wife is from New Hampshire,
and she assisted me with this next pronunciation
so that my New Jersey accent didn't shine through.
Letters to Cleo hails from, and I'll pause for
a minute, Dorchester, Massachusetts. That one's
pretty good. Thank you very much. And because
of such, the band will always be connected to
the Boston music scene. Can you talk about what
that scene was like in the early 90s when the
band was up and coming and how it's changed and
evolved over the years since? That's a great
question. Yes. I mean, my entire ethos as a creative
person, as a songwriter, is informed by my...
you know, being raised in the Boston music scene
in my teens and 20s. Back then, we had two major
radio stations, two major market radio stations,
WBCN and WFNX, that played local music. And not
like, I mean, that we had like local music shows
on Sunday nights, but like bands weren't relegated
to just that. It's like you would hear. local
bands at drive time or at lunch, like during
regular hours. And DJs had carte blanche to play
whatever they wanted. And so you could be like
a famous rock band within the 128 belt loop without
ever leaving Massachusetts, you know? And that
was really cool. We also had, aside from that,
maybe even more popular. were all of the college
radio stations, you know, MIT and BU, WERS from
Emerson. These radio stations were hugely influential.
Everybody listened to them. And even when bands
like big, major international bands would fly
through the college radio stations while they
were doing their press tours and stuff like that.
And then we had this incredible zine scene. which
were the independent zines that were like mimeographed
and stapled together. And like you would be able
to get them on these stands at like the Middle
East or TT the Bears. It was basically what I'm
trying to say is that the ecosystem for like
being creative and being a local band was it
was so supportive and just intoxicating to be
a part of. And I was a massive fan of local bands.
before I was in one myself. Well, I can't believe
the next sentence is actually coming out of my
mouth, but this year marks the 30th anniversary
of the band's debut album, Aurora Goriales, which
was originally released on Cherry Disc Records
in 1993 and re -released in 1994 on Giant Records,
a major label. A few months back, I talked with
Will Turpin of Collective Soul, whose band had
a very similar experience as Letters to Cleo
as their debut album, hints, allegations, and
things like that. Left Unsaid was first released
on Atlanta, Georgia record label Rising Storm
Records in 1993, the band hail from Atlanta.
And then Atlantic Records picked it up and re
-released it in 1994. Now, this is similar to
Letters to Cleo as Cherry Disc Records was based
out of Boston and you guys followed the same
93 -94 path. So can you talk about how Giant
Records discovered Aurora and what the transition
was like? for the band to go from a local Boston
indie label to a major label all within the same
album cycle. Yeah, that's a great question. I
did not know that Collective Soul had shared
the same 93 -94 trajectory with us. That's very
interesting. That's my music nerd. I'm coming
out here. I apologize. I love it. That's great.
It's good to have the context. And I feel like
a lot of bands at that time, You know, it was
just a very vital time for alternative rock music
and indie pop. And the major labels were, you
know, circling. And like bands like mine were
like getting signed at that time. So for Letters
to Cleo, I mean, we weren't really, at least
I'll speak for myself, I was not very careerist.
I didn't even know that being in a band could
be a career. That wasn't really part of my plan.
I loved being in my band, but we toured a lot,
you know, like we would, you know, I would work
a double shift at the restaurant on Thursday
and then Thursday night we'd get in the van and
drive overnight to New York. And then on Friday,
Saturday, Sunday, we'd play like New York, Philly.
And so we were like touring a lot in our van
and we made it down to South by Southwest in
93. after aurora came out and south by southwest
back then was well you remember yeah it was the
destination yeah i mean it was it was very different
than what it is now and so the first two times
we got to south by southwest in 91 and 92 our
shows had been canceled and so I know. Like,
and we were like out on the road and it would
take a lot for us to go out on the road. Like
we did not have money. You know, we were paying
for it ourselves. We were giving ourselves, you
know, $10 a day per diems and we're racing our
entire tours around like Cracker Barrel maps.
Because we knew exactly how much we could eat
at Cracker Barrel for exactly how much money.
And we would eat, you know, it's just. It was
just different times. No cell phones, no internet.
And so we got to our 93 showcase at South by
Southwest. And Steve White from Billboard had
decided to review the Cherry Disc version of
Aurora Goriales on the cover of Billboard the
week of our showcase at South by Southwest that
year. And we were like, what the f***? And Michael
Creamer, our manager, and Larry Webman, our booking
agent, like took the billboard, ran down to Kinko's,
mimeographed a bunch of copies and like ran back
to the Four Seasons, which is where all the,
you know, executive A &R people would have their
expense, you know, would be drinking all day
on their expense accounts and like hand it out.
covers of our, now Veruca Salt was like the big
band that year. They were like the ones that
were on fire that year. So we were not, we were
just like kind of nobodies and Veruca Salt was
getting all the fire. So it was like really cool
that we were able to just like generate some
kind of interest. And as it turned out, we had
some fans by then because we'd toured a lot.
So like we had some fans and also the nascent
internet. we had a lot of like, the internet
was very new. And so we did have the internet.
And we had, there were like these college boards
that people had started talking about our band
on. You know, there were just, it was very, very,
very nerdy at the time. And not many people were
like in these chat rooms, but like some of them
were talking about Letters to Cleo. So we actually
had some people at our show. And the A &R people
came to the show. And we ended up getting taken
out to our first meal from a major label. Oh
my gosh, why am I spacing on his name? I'm going
to have to get back to you on this. But he's
from RCA and took us out to breakfast. And then
kind of like the label started calling. And we
ended up going with Giant Records. Jeff Aldrich
flew out to Boston. to take us out. Now, like
my favorite thing in the world still to this
day is like when some big shot pays for my lunch.
Like I just love there's nothing I love more
or like free snacks. Like I just like I'm still
in like poverty mode. I'm a grown ass person.
Like I still just like love when people pay for
my food. And so we got a lot of free meals and
we ended up signing with Giant after they told
us about their Melrose Place soundtrack. that
Amy Mann was going to be on the replacements
and like all these bands that we loved. And we
were like, we want to be on that. And little
did we know what was going to happen from that
decision. Well, obviously that was here and now
track six on Aurora Goriales. For those of us
who own the CD. Dude, I didn't know what track
it was. Went on to become the band's highest
charting hit. As far as I'm concerned, this song
is an absolute musical snapshot of 93 and 94
between the radio play and then the placement
on Melrose Place. Getting featured on TV and
movie soundtracks in the 90s. was kind of a different
animal than it is today. However, there's no
denying the impact that a TV or movie feature
can have on the song. Having had experiences
across the decades in both television and film,
would you be able to talk about how that part
of the business has kind of evolved? Well, I
can only say how it has impacted me. I have no
sense of how these things impact bands now. To
me, it seems more about people will actually,
and this is not a criticism, I would not have
done it this way, but I understand why artists
do it. People will write songs with the expressed
motivation of getting a Target commercial. or
an Apple ad, you know, like people will write
songs with that in mind. That was absolutely
anathema back in the 90s. And I don't, in retrospect,
you know, we passed up a lot of money and clout
that we could have had by saying no to commercials
and things like that. But it seemed like we could
do, you know, movie soundtracks and still retain
our, you know, our dignity. And by the way, I'm
kind of I'm using air quotes now because, you
know, this is sort of like the insolence of you.
Yes. You know, now that I have like kids and
responsibilities, it's like, wow, I really wish
I had that $10 ,000 from fucking Kool -Aid. I'm
sorry, am I allowed to swear? Sure, help yourself.
Like it was really silly the way I, you know,
how proprietary I felt about the band's credibility.
But that said. You know, being on movie soundtracks
was something that Letters to Cleo ended up doing
quite a bit. You know, we ended up arguably more
well -known for covering Cheap Trick on the roof
in the final scene of 10 Things I Hate About
You than for Here and Now. You know, there were
a lot of people that when the band kind of reformed
in 2015, we were shocked at how many fans we
had. from movies that came out after the band
broke up that never thought that they would see
us. And we were just like, where did all these,
these new people come from? And it was from soundtrack
stuff, from the craft, from Josie and the Pussycats
for sure. Yeah. We're definitely going to touch
on those, but right now I want to stick with
Aurora Goriales because this past weekend I listened
to the album front to back to kind of put me
in the right mindset for tonight's conversation.
The first thing that came to my mind as somebody
who heard the album in 1993 and I'm listening
to it again in 2023 was how Letters to Cleo had
such a unique and unmistakable energy about their
music. It's that energy that lives and breathes
throughout all the songs on the album. such as
Big Star, Rimshack, Wasted, Get On With It. I
could pretty much pick out any song here as an
example. But when you listen to the album with
three decades of hindsight, coupled with the
unique perspective of being someone who, as the
liner notes read, sings and plays a little guitar
on the album, I'd love to know what the first
thing that comes to mind for you is. Well, you're
assuming that I'm listening to this record at
all, which I am not. Here's part one of the answer.
I have never really listened to any Letters to
Cleo albums. Wow. I can't stand. It's changed
now. Now that I write music for other people,
for other stuff for a living, I don't mind it
now. But back in those days, the sound of my
own voice absolutely horrified me. I could not
listen to our records at all. Be that as it may,
this is part two, going, you know, rehearsing
this, you know, we're getting ready to rehearse
the song. So obviously, like, I have to go through
and look at the lyrics and stuff like that. And
it's interesting, you know, with so much time
in the rear view, thinking about what it was
like to be able to write songs at 20, 21, 22,
and just having these incredible snapshots of
who I was at that time and how much I've changed,
how much I haven't changed. I'm so grateful for
that. You know, people who are that age now are
going to look back at their Instagrams and their,
you know, the photos in their phones or on their
computers. And I don't have any of that. Like,
I don't have a lot of photographs of myself doing
all the dumb shit that I did. Thank God for that.
I don't either. I cannot imagine. I acted such
a fool back in those. I can't imagine that stuff
being preserved for forever. But I do have these
songs that I wrote with my band. And the five
of us in a rehearsal space, fleshing out these
ideas and putting my lyrics to music or putting
lyrics to their music, whatever the case may
be. It's just like such an unbelievable gift
to myself later on. Now, when you guys are practicing
these songs for your upcoming handful of East
Coast tour dates to celebrate the 30th anniversary
of the album, do you find yourself going back
and kind of. Feeling that energy from the lyrics
and from the songs as you originally wrote them.
Like, is it a time capsule for you when you start
singing one of the songs? You're instantly 22
again back on stage in Boston. Yeah. Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely. And the byproduct is also being able
to like sing these songs with with that, like
they have new meaning as well as the old meaning.
Like I said, like I haven't changed. A whole
lot, at least the way I think, the way I process
things. So it's interesting to be able to sing
these songs with new perspective. Hindsight is
always 20 -20. It sure is. Well, in 1995, the
band released Wholesale Meats and Fish, which
was the first time the band recorded an album
specifically for Giant. That record features
amazing tunes and letters to Cleo, Live Staples,
Demon Rock, Pizza Cutter, Awake, and Fastway,
again, just to name a few. Was there a different
atmosphere and experience recording this album
versus Aurora with a major label being involved
from the start of the project? I never thought
of it that way. Most of the songs for Wholesale,
had been written by the time we because we started
making that record in 94 sort of at the end of
94 and like I said earlier we were road dogs
we were on the road like any new song that we
had like instantly went into the set and we didn't
have that pressure of like oh you have to have
the record before you play it's like you would
introduce your new songs because that's the only
way that people would get to know the new Right.
Yeah. And so the songs had already been well
road tested. We were making that album again
with Mike Dineen, who had been, you know, producing
our records and our songs for years by then.
And so it didn't really feel that different,
except for we got to fly to like L .A. and do
pre -production with Dineen at like Ocean Way
in Hollywood. So we had a budget. And of course,
we didn't realize that that was all our money.
And we didn't understand how the math really
worked. We were just like, we get to fly on an
airplane and record music somewhere else. And
that seemed very novel. It was very novel to
us. I mean, it felt really like, this is cool.
It was exactly what we thought being on a major
label would be like. And most of our friends
labels were in New York, but ours was in L .A.
So we would like anyway. So if the question is,
did we feel the pressure of that major label
pressure? We didn't, because like I said, most
of the songs had been written and road tested
already and they didn't really get in the way.
There were some, you know, flags that were thrown
up that I. You know, our A &R guy, Jeff Aldrich,
kind of like took me aside and asked me if I
wanted to write, if I would be willing to write
songs with like songwriters that were not in
the band. And I was like, no. And so I refused
that. But he didn't push either. He wasn't he
wasn't like he was like, all right. And they
released the record early because we wanted them
to, you know, the label and our attorney wanted
to go with. Icy as the second single from Aurora
Goriales. But I was really sick of Icy and pushed
them to put out Wholesale Meats and Fish early.
And they did, even though that was a huge mistake.
What did I know? Nothing. I knew nothing. That's
okay, though. It's all art. There's no right
or wrong answers at the end of the day. No, I
have no complaints. All these years later, I
have no complaints about the way we conducted
our careers. Well, here's an interesting spin
in your career. In 1996, you performed alongside
Gary Cherone of Extreme in the Boston Rock Opera's
performance of Jesus Christ Superstar as Mary
Magdalene. Yes. I would love to know what the
transition was like for you as a singer to jump
from the live band stage to a theater production
stage and what you personally took away from
that experience. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. That's
such a great question. You know, this was a Boston
rock opera production. So, again, it was very
local, but it was with like a lot of people from
the Boston music, like another part of the Boston
music scene with people that I like didn't know.
So they asked our manager, Creamer, if I would
be interested in doing this role. And I had heard
about. the production. They had been already
been doing it for a couple of years at the Middle
East downstairs. And so I knew about the company.
I knew about the production. And I was like,
I think we'd like to do that. We had some time
off and it was scary. It was really intimidating
to like go in and like all of these people were
even though it was Boston rock opera. So it wasn't
sort of like this theater group, you know, it
wasn't musical theater nerds, but like. the punk
rock ones, you know? So it was really, it was
really intimidating. And then we ended up, I
had the best, best time. And I, you know, I understand
why people get really into like addicted to theater
because you become a family in those productions,
you know, through rehearsals and, and then the,
the camaraderie that you develop like backstage
while you're doing this. It's like, oh, it's
absolutely intoxicating. And I loved every minute
of it. Gary and I had the best time. You know,
we became very good friends. And, you know, and
I still to this day have friends from that production
that I will have for the rest of my life. That's
amazing. In 1997, the band released Go. And this
is the first Letters to Cleo album to feature
Tom Pulce on drums. And this album features another
batch of amazing tunes, including Copilot, the
title track, Disappear, and Anchor, which is
the track I'd like to touch on. Because this
track features a Boston musical legend, if I
may call him that, Greg Hawks of the Cars, who
plays keyboards on this song. I'd love to know
the story behind Greg's appearance on the track
and what it meant for you on a musical and personal
level coming from Boston as well. Yeah. Oh, my
gosh. I love Greg. He's such a wonderful, beautiful
weirdo. The reason that, well, we became friends
with him because we recorded going, this is a
callback to our talk about soundtracks. We recorded
Dangerous Type for the Kraft soundtrack. And
back then, those movie studio budgets were like,
meh. And so we called Greg. You know, we didn't
call him because we didn't know him. But we were
like, you know, I wonder if Greg Hawks would
come out here and play keys on Dangerous Type.
And so we got in touch with him somehow. And
he said yes. And he flew out to L .A. and recorded.
So we became friends with him then at that point.
And we were just like, we want to be friends
with you all the time. So when we were. When
we were making Go, it was such an obvious choice
to get him to. And since then, he's he's like
played live with us and he's just such a great
guy. Well, The Cars Self -Titled is my personal
favorite album of all time. I've talked about
it a ton on this show. It's a genre defining
album mixing new wave punk rock and all this
stuff together, as well as this. Between Rick
and Ben, this lyrical style that is this very
happy, poppy music with some darker tones, which
I see kind of ingrained throughout the Letters
to Cleo career and in your songwriting as well.
So back in 1994, I took my then girlfriend to
see The Craft in the theater. And when the movie's
playing and Dangerous Type comes on, having grown
up with the cars, I'm sitting in the seat. singing
along kind of under my breath with the lyrics
of the song and my girlfriend at the time actually
thought that i had seen the movie without her
already did not realize that i was just the song
caught me and as soon as the movie was over we
went right to the mall and i grabbed the soundtrack
and i've owned it ever since i'd love to hear
the story behind how Dangerous Type, a Cars cover
song, which that wasn't a major hit for the band.
That was on Candio, and it was never released
as a single, but it is a fan favorite. And now
I finally get to ask, after decades of kind of
just wondering about this, how did Letters to
Cleo choose Dangerous Type for the craft? The
story behind that song begins and ends with this
guy named Ralph Saul, who in the 90s, he'd been
a TV executive at Fox. but also like a massive
music fan, like real, real deal music fan. And
he sort of like identified this need in the movie
space. There was a, as you remember, there were
a lot of sort of like young adult film. Like
that was like the big thing in the 90s. And he
sort of like, he became the go -to person for
movie soundtracks. He basically. I think one
of the first things he did was actually getting
all of his favorite bands to do covers of schoolhouse
rock songs. Oh, yeah. I remember that comp. Yeah.
With Blind Melon and everything. Of course. So
Ralph did that. He got all of it. And so the
way that he would get to meet his favorite bands
was to hire them to get these like big, you know,
movie budget and hire all of his favorite bands
to do covers. for these movie soundtracks. And
if you go back, you will see that thread throughout
the 90s of like all these cover songs being performed
by all the bands in the 90s. And so he was the
one who hired us for 10 Things I Hate About You
as well. I'm not sure if Dangerous Type was his
idea or our idea. You know, when we would do
these things for Ralph, we'd just like a lot
of, we'd record a lot of songs. And some of them
would be our idea. Some of them would be his
idea. So I'm not sure whose idea that was. But
obviously, no matter whose it was, we were on
board 100 percent. 100 percent here as well,
because when we had an episode on 90s movie soundtracks,
spoiler alert, one of my choices was Dangerous
Type from The Craft because of how much the cars
and your version means to me. It's just such
an incredible cover. I talk about cover songs
all the time because I'm a big fan of an artist
taking a song that's already kind of ingrained
in somebody's musical DNA and putting their own
spin on it and making it a unique piece of art
that pays homage to the original. And I love
what you bring to the cover songs that. Letters
to Cleo has done over the years. So that's a
perfect transition into my next question. Because
on the Spirit of 73 Rock for Choice compilation,
the band covered a song that is literally ingrained
in my musical DNA. Because before I was born,
my mother has told me many a times throughout
the years that when she was pregnant with me,
every night before bed, she would put her headphones
on and listen to Fleetwood Mac's Rumors before
going to bed. So that is another one of my favorite
albums of all time because I had already pretty
much known it before I knew how to talk. I was
always impressed with Letters to Cleo's ability
to bring a level of heft. to the songs that you
were covering while still maintaining the integrity
of the original. And to do that on a track like
Dreams is quite a balance because you're adding
this intensity to a song that's very dreamy,
but somehow you made all the pieces of the puzzle
fit perfectly. And I absolutely love this cover
and would love to hear what it means for you
singing this because listening to your vocals,
I hear. that this song meant something to you
in that performance? Oh, man, I forgot all about
that. Thank you for asking about this particular
song. First of all, it's kind of heavy to think
about the spirit of 73 was for abortion rights.
And at that time, women, it never even occurred
to my generation that that right was under the
kind of threat. that it actually was facing down
in the next couple of decades. And the idea that
we're living in a time where that has been struck
down and many women are not able to access a
basic human right, which is to health care, is
shocking. So we didn't even, it's kind of quaint.
You know, we were fighting for a right that we
did not understand was under such threat. So
that aside, you know, that being the context,
we chose that song because we loved it. And we
had started at the time our tour schedule was
insane. And I did not have any respect for this
instrument, my voice. And so, you know, I was
drinking and smoking and screaming and like talking
to fans after the show and before the show and
staying out all night. And I. lost my voice at
the beginning of the tour and I tried to record
the vocal several times for that song and finally
we got to LA and it was like it was the deadline
was passed and we had to turn the song in and
at the time you couldn't you know it's like you
had to go to a studio that you had to like we
had to carry the tapes with us and like you know
put the two inch tapes on the studer and like
So it was an ordeal to like book a studio and
like get in. So we got to L .A. I forget which
one. And my voice is trashed. I could not sing
at all, at all. Wow. And it's interesting to
hear that because actually I can listen to that
performance because it's like you can hear just
like the pain of me trying to like. Like I never
sang that softly or like I've never had a performance
on before or since that sounds like that. And
it's horrible, but it's also kind of awesome.
See, I never it's amazing how that context changes
because as somebody who didn't know that story,
I just always listen to that as a kind of heartfelt,
emotive delivery of the song. It was heartfelt.
It was like I was singing it with every fiber.
To get every note out took everything I had.
And so it was both physical, like me struggling
to get the song out, but also the words took
on a different meaning. Because I couldn't rely
on my instrument the way I normally would, so
I chose every note. Very carefully because with
intention, because I had to, because I couldn't
talk at all. Like if I were to talk, it would
sound like this. Oh, wow. So like the fact that
I got any notes to resonate at all was like,
it's. Yeah. Wow. Well, as soon as we're done
with this interview, the first thing I'm doing
is listening to that with all this in hindsight
now. I can't wait to go back and listen now.
Well, we've talked about it before. The next
two covers are from the hit comedy 10 Things
I Hate About You, which starred Julia Stiles,
Heath Ledger and Joseph Gordon -Levitt. The band
had two covers on the soundtrack. You mentioned
one of them, Cheap Tricks, I Want You to Want
Me and the other being Nick Lowe's Cruel to Be
Kind in the 90s. To some extent, even the early
part of the aughts, soundtracks were a big, big
deal. Bands were competing for just a single
slot on a soundtrack release. Not only did Letters
to Cleo have two songs appear on the 10 Things
soundtrack, you also had two other songs appear
in the movie, Come On, which the band had released
early 2000s time capsule moment here as a free
MP3 download. as well as co -pilot, which was
on the album Go, how did the band become such
a huge musical connection? Because that's four
slots in one soundtrack. That's unheard of. What?
You really do your homework. This is an unbelievable
question. I will tell you how that happened.
I mean, Ralph Saul, of course, called us into
a little funny backstory to this. I had decided...
around that time that I was going to quit the
biz. I was going to study to become a sommelier.
And I was really, really into wine. And so this
was the career path that I was going to be on.
I was going to quit the music business. I had
started working for this very, very important
wine store in Boston on Newberry Street. And
I was learning the wine business. And we got
a call from Ralph Stahl. asking us to come out
to L .A. and do a couple of songs for this movie
that was being made. And we were like, so I had
to tell the wine store that I needed the weekend
off because we were going to, you know, go and
do a couple of songs for this. I needed to fly
out to L .A. to do a couple of songs for this
thing. And the wine store was like, sure, go
ahead. And so off we went. So we get to L .A.
to Ocean Way, which was just such a legendary
studio. It's not Ocean Way anymore. It's United,
I think. But we get out there and we just start
recording songs. And we recorded a bunch of songs.
And I don't remember what some of them were.
But then while we were there, the director of
10 Things I Hate About You called Ralph and was
like, hey, I need a band for these scenes and
blah, blah, blah. And Ralph was like, well, Letters
to Cleo's here in L .A. They were up in Seattle
making the movie. Letters to Cleo's here recording
songs. Do you want them? And he's like, send
me a picture. And so Ralph sent him a picture.
And he's like, they look great. Send them up.
So the next thing you know, we're like on a plane
to Seattle to like shoot scenes in the movie.
And all of these actors at the time were unknown
except for Joseph Gordon -Levitt, who had been
on Third Rock and The Sun. But the rest of them
were, like Heath was complete. This was his first
American movie. Julia, Larissa, my favorite,
who actually was, I think she had a hand in getting
Letters to Cleo on the soundtrack in the first
place. She vouched for us when Ralph was like,
because she was a fan of the band. And anyway,
so I called the wine store and I was like, I
think I'm not coming back. So, so I never went
back to the wine store. I went out to Seattle,
shot scenes for the movie, went back to LA, did
the, so we basically like lived in LA between
LA and Seattle for like a month. It was great.
It was a pretty bunch thing. Like we fit the
suit. That's unbelievable. And then right after
that, in 2001, you personally, you mentioned
this earlier, sang all the vocals for the part
of Josie in Josie and the Pussycats movie. And
you also had a hand in writing some of the songs
such as Shapeshifter and Come On with songs like
Three Small Words and Pretend to Be Nice, even
going as far as to making it into Letters to
Cleo live shows. Can you talk about? This experience
and how it had differed from what you had done
with Letters to Cleo up to this point. All right.
Well, you win the gold medal for all my favorite
questions. I'm not done yet either. Yeah. So
that Josie and the Pussycats, I mean, the top
line is that that experience literally changed
my life in every conceivable way. My friend Dave
Gibbs from the Jiggle Ons, who actually the Jiggle
Ons are reforming to support Letters to Cleo
on our tour in November. Love it. So, yeah, it's
so awesome. So they're like our brother band.
And Dave Gibbs was out in L .A. writing songs
with Deb and Harry, the directors of Josie and
the Pussycats. And they had already hired a Josie
and Babyface, who was producing the movies for
the film. He had hired a Josie. And Dave was,
oh, my God, you need to get my friend Kate saying
the voices of the pussycats. She'd be perfect.
And they were like, sure, bring her out. And
then, you know, Deb and Harry knew letters to
Cleo. So that that was helpful. You know, just
even having one hit in your life is very helpful
in getting people to like return phone calls
or, you know, you can parlay it into many different
things. It turns out I learned later. So I had
my. Ex -husband, Cleo bandmate, Michael Eisenstein.
We had had our first child. Zoe Mabel was 11
months old when we flew out to L .A. I was planning
to live in Boston for the rest of my life, and
that didn't happen. But we flew out to L .A.,
and I started showing up at the studio to be
the voices of the Pussycats. In the meantime,
they had started testing the singer that they
had hired to be Josie with. with Rachel Lee Cook's,
you know, performance. And it just didn't make
any, her voice was so good. The woman that they
had hired, like so good and so big. And so, and
it just didn't make any sense coming out of Rachel's
mouth. So it kind of left me in position, like
I was there. So I'm a very lucky person. Like
I just end up in the right place in the right
time a lot. It's really weird. And so I was able
to kind of. It's a longer story, but I was able
to swoop in and get the job of Josie, which was
amazing. And then working with Babyface, it was
the first time I'd ever been hired to do something
for my voice. I did not consider myself a singer
at all. I thought of myself as the singer of
Letters to Cleo because I wrote the lyrics and
melody. Who else was going to do it? So I just
thought that I yelled really loud and kind of
hit the notes. And I was hired to like be a singer
on this project. And then I saw the way Babyface
conducted his creative life. And it was so inspiring
to me. And it wasn't so much about the money.
It was about the fact that people paid him for
his work, for his creative work. And he was very
smart about like, he was a consummate business
person, but he was also a consummate artist.
And I was like, I... want to do that. I want
to go behind the scenes and be creative and be
a business person. That finally was the first
time that it clicked for me that this is what
I'm supposed to be doing. Well, I can't picture
that soundtrack without your voice on it. I just
have to say that. Me either. Thank you. I wanted
to touch on someone who you worked with on this
film and on the soundtrack who's sadly no longer
with us. The amazing Adam Schlesinger of Fountains
of Wayne, who wrote the song Pretend to be Nice
for the film and was also one of your co -writers
on Come On. I would love to ask what it was like
working with him on this project, as I always
felt he was an extremely talented and gifted
songwriter and performer. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.
Well, I did not work with Adam on Pretend to
be Nice. I recorded that with Babyface. I knew,
of course, that Adam wrote it, but I had no idea
how talented he was until after I did all the
songs for the movie itself with Babyface. A few
months later, when I got back to Boston, a few
months later, Babyface, or I don't know who it
was, but maybe Devin Harry's people said that
they wanted to make a soundtrack for the movie.
And then... Adam was chosen to produce the rest
of the songs. And he worked at Q Division with
Mike Dineen, who was Cleo's producer and was
Fountains of Wayne's producer. So the three of
us hold up in a studio at Q Division Studios,
which was Dineen's studio. And I had the most
amazing honor. And like, I've never laughed so
hard in my life. as I did in the month that we
were recording the song that Adam, Mike and I
were doing the songs for Josie for the rest of
the Josie soundtrack. It was unbelievable. And
then fast forward when we were doing there was
Mondo Records did a 20 year anniversary of the
release of the soundtrack. And there was like
in L .A., there was a screening of the film.
There was a Q &A with the actors and with me
and Deb and Harry. And then we performed five
songs from the soundtrack. And, you know, I was
like, you know what? We need to call Adam to
play on Pretend to Be Nice because, like, we
just have to. But then I was like, he's so like,
Adam is a really shy guy and he's kind of elusive.
He's kind of mysterious. It's like, you know,
I was kind of like, oh, but he's going to he's
going to say no. He's not going to want to do
it. And I was like, fuck it. I'm going to ask
him. And so I texted him and I was like, hey,
we're doing this thing. You got to, you know,
you want to play on it with us. And he was like,
instantly was like, fuck, yes. And so like, and
he came down to rehearse with us and he played
the show with us and he was so psyched. And I'm
so glad that I did that because, because he died
the following year. And I'm so glad I didn't
miss the chance to spend that time with him.
And I'm so glad that I ignored that voice that
was like insecure about whether he would want
to do that or not, because he didn't want to.
And we got to spend that time. That was the last
time that I got to spend with him. And I'm so
fucking grateful for that. I can't even begin
to imagine how that impacted someone who knew
him personally, because even though I didn't
know him personally, I knew him through his music
and it hit me extremely hard. I don't want to
continue to stay on this topic for too long,
but I feel like this is important to bring up.
In 2020, you covered one of Adam's songs. one
of my favorite Fountains of Wayne songs ever
for the 2020 compilation, Saving for a Custom
Van, which was released exclusively on Bandcamp
with 100 % of the proceeds going towards the
Musicare's COVID -19 relief fund. And you brought
such a unique, almost new wave spin to Radiation
Vibe. And there's such a joy that shines through
in your rendition. I'd love to hear why you decided
upon that song for this benefit. Well, that song
was just, I mean, that was the first song of
Fountains of Wayne I ever heard on WFNX. And
I was just, what is this? And I was instantly
a Fountains of Wayne fan when I heard that song.
So we were holed up during COVID, my husband
and I. So he's, my husband, Clayton James, is
a big synth nerd. There was no getting out to
studios at the time, and he and I had been recording
stuff for other COVID -related projects. So it
was a natural choice for me to record this song
with him. And this was the first song that we
ever built from scratch together. And so his,
all of those dark synthy choices, all of that
was like... Totally Clay's production. And so
I give him all the credit for the creative direction
that we took for that song. Because I never would
have, you know, I'm not a synth person at all.
And I've only really come to appreciate the art
form because of, you know, marrying this guy
who was somewhere in the house. So, yeah, so
that was how that happened. Well, it's an amazing
version, and I'm going to post a link to that
Bandcamp page over at MyWeeklyMixtape .com for
anyone to go listen and support that compilation
as well. So I have two young ladies. One is 14
and one is 10. And growing up, both of them were
obsessed with Doc McStuffins, with my older one
even dressing up as her for Halloween. And I
could probably still sing you the I Feel Better
song to this day if you were to challenge me
to that. I would love to know how this opportunity
came about for you and your songwriting partner
for this, Michelle Lewis, as well as what the
challenges are in writing songs that are aimed
at kids, but balancing the fact that adults like
myself are watching these shows as well. Yeah,
well, I mean, my career, this is where I have
landed, is in animation. This is my day job.
This is what I will hopefully do for the rest
of my career. is writing songs for TV animation.
I absolutely love it. Michelle and I met out
here in LA and we became writing partners because
we just like, as soon as we met, like we were
just creative magnets and we had a million ideas
and we were like, let's do this, let's do that,
let's do that. And one of the things that we
did in those early years as writing partners
was we created and sold a couple of TV shows
to Disney, a couple of kids shows. None of them
went anywhere, but we became known at Disney
as people who could write music for this space.
And one of our sort of like our mantra is we
do not write children's songs because we don't.
I've never written a children's song in my life.
I write songs that I would record for myself.
The opportunity to write for Doc McStuffins came
as an offer to actually consult on the music
for that show. And again, like the people that
they originally wanted to do it, it just wasn't
working out, which placed me and Michelle in
this amazing position to be able to take the
job. So that was our first series that we had,
even though a few years before that, I had done
music for Care Bears and then Letters to Cleo
had done Generation O in 1999. And so like I'd
have like a little experience doing a series,
but this was Michelle's and my first series.
And we've been doing it ever since. You know,
Chris Need, the creator of the show, had a very
specific point of view that really informed our,
that was really, you know, like our music adapted
very well to her storytelling. And so I think
the combination was what was very chewy and like
we could really sink our teeth into her stories
and write music that felt authentic to us. Well,
now I want to talk about a project that was released
earlier this year that's extremely unique. You
and Tom Pulci co -wrote the music to an episode
of Star Trek Strange New Worlds in season two.
The episode is called Subspace Rhapsody and is
a Star Trek musical. Now, I'm not a Trekkie by
any means, but I'm very familiar with the movies
and some of the series. Apologies to Star Trek
fans listening. Please don't turn off. the episode
now. But considering how passionate the Star
Trek fan base is, what was your mindset when
you and Tom sat down to write songs for this
episode? Did you have a script or at least some
working knowledge of the story? Or did they just
say, hey, we're doing a Star Trek episode. Go.
Right. Kind of. Well, Tom is a staff composer
for Paramount. So he actually worked with Schlesinger
on Crazy Ex -Girlfriend. So he like he's kind
of involved in all of the TV music for Paramount
or formerly CBS television. So when Tom when
they were conceiving this now Strange New Worlds
is a prequel to the Star Trek cinematic universe.
And it's also kind of known for its humor. And
it's you know, it really is a throwback to the
storytelling wise to the the one off stories
of the original Star Trek. I did not know this
at the time. I know all of this now. I was not
a Trekkie, although I have very warm memories
of watching Star Trek with my dad on Channel
38, WSBK in Boston in the 70s when I was a child.
So like you, like we all, it's in the ether.
Like, you know, the main characters, you know,
the world in a general way. We all do. Tom was
called in as a kind of like to give his thoughts
on. how they could make this work. And so Tom
gave his recommendations. He actually recommended
me and Michelle and Dan. He was recommending
teams that could do songs for it. Originally,
they were just going to go out to a bunch of
different teams for specific songs. And then
at some point, they said to Tom, like, hey, would
you want to do this? And Tom was like, great.
do you want to do this? So he kind of like scrapped,
they scrapped all the conversations that they
had been having. And Tom called me and asked
me if I would be interested in being his lyricist
on this thing, which I was very interested in
that. And then we ended up just writing all the
songs together and collaborating on music and
lyrics. And that's how it happened. It was very,
very intense. Five weeks of just like... getting
in the trenches a lot of i've never done i mean
i've never really done research for a songwriting
project at least not to this level but this was
like it was we took it very you know where new
england is we took it very seriously we wanted
to get an a on the assignment you know and uh
and but with also knowing how important canon
was to fans of the show we could not dial any
of it in we took it all very seriously and we
had pages we knew what we were writing for as
we were writing and the script was fleshed out
more and more and more as we went and it certainly
pays off at the end when all is said and done
thank you this october letters to cleo released
two brand new songs and i want to touch on those
and play a clip of each First up is Badman, which
musically has a very upbeat and ethereal vibe,
but lyrically tells a completely different story.
And It's Sunny Outside, which is musically soaring
yet playful and contrasted lyrically. That's
something we mentioned earlier in our discussion,
and it's something I've always admired about
Letters to Cleo because the music and lyrics
often paint a different picture depending on
how one chooses to listen to the song via the
music or via the lyrics. You can enjoy Letters
to Cleo's music on multiple levels. When you're
writing these new songs, does the music or lyrical
content come first? And how do you decide to
create that, for lack of a better word, tension?
between the music and the lyrics? I don't try.
That's just how it comes out. My upbringing as
like, just like listening to pop music on AM
radio made me just like this relentlessly like
melodic writer. So like my melodies are very
sing -alongable. It's like in very sort of like,
I just can't help it. Like my melodies are just
very happy. And I never... I very rarely write
about happy stuff. And if I do, it's like from
the point of view of a character. But if I'm
writing from the point of view of myself, it's
always going to be miserable. That's just the
way my subconscious mind and my conscious mind
work together. Well, the end product is fantastic.
So keep that up. And putting my news reporter
cap on for one second, I'd be remiss if I didn't
ask you if these singles were part of some larger
forthcoming Letters to Cleo album, or is the
band just focusing right now on releasing singles
as inspiration strikes? You are very perceptive.
This is Michael and I had been getting together
before the pandemic for like. These 90 minute
writing sessions. And then we would like Greg
would send musical ideas to us from where he
was. And we were sort of like working remotely
before we had to work remotely. And so Michael
and I would write for 90 minutes. And then a
week later, we'd record for 90 minutes. And we
kind of got in this flow of like once a week,
just getting together with the idea that we were
making a Clio record. And we were talking to
Adam Schlesinger about producing it because he
was the only person that we could imagine after
Mike Deneen died of cancer six years ago, five
years ago. And so Adam was going to produce the
new record because who else would? And the pandemic
hit while we were kind of like really hitting
our stride with everything. And as you remember,
where Adam died was one of the... He died on
April 1st, I think, of 2020. It was very soon
after the pandemic hit. And it just took the
wind right out of our... And then the pandemic
itself was very disorienting. And so we kind
of just put it on the back burner. And then this
year, we're like, all right, let's pick these
songs back up. Let's just try this again. And
so these were the first songs that we had kind
of written from that batch back that Adam was
going to produce. And so, yes, there's stuff
in the it's just it's more a matter of we've
got an album's worth of material written. It's
more about finding the time to really give it
the attention that it deserves. And having Bill
Leffler. produced this stuff was really a revelation.
I love the sound of these songs. I've never heard
a sound like this. I mean, it still sounds like
Leo, but kind of different. And I love it. So
I'm really looking forward now to working with
Bill on more stuff. Well, I've been gushing over
the last hour about my favorite songs from throughout
your career. So now I want to turn the table
for this last question just a little bit. If
someone asked you to tell the story of Letters
to Cleo using three songs from across the band's
history, covers, originals, any of the music
that you guys have performed, what three would
you choose? My three favorite Cleo songs. Number
one, Veda Very Shining, for sure. That's from
Go. The What song? I love from Wholesale and
then Here and Now. Well, Kay, this has been an
absolute pleasure talking with you. Thank you
so much for joining me on My Weekly Mixtape.
Brian, thank you for all the great questions.
It was a pleasure to speak with you as well.
Remember, Mixtapers, head over to MyWeeklyMixtape
.com to hear all the songs we've discussed in
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That's all for this week. Thanks again for listening.
And until next time, enjoy the tunes.