Hi, this is Desmond Child and you're listening
to My Weekly Mixtape with Brian Colburn. Welcome
to My Weekly Mixtape, a podcast that takes the
classic mixtape approach to building a modern
playlist. I'm your host, Brian Colburn. Tonight,
I'm beyond excited to welcome one of my favorite
songwriters on the planet to the program, a man
responsible for so many of the great tunes that
have lived on my personal mixtapes over the years.
It's almost staggering. And that is the one and
only Desmond Child. Desmond, thank you so much
for joining me on my weekly mixtape. Thank you
for inviting me. This is great. Well, I'd like
to start by asking you the question I ask all
of my first time guests. And that is, what does
the word mixtape mean to you? Well, mixtape is
sort of a modern idea that comes from DJs, kind
of going from one song to the other. Sometimes
they have the same tempo, so they mix them together
as they transition from one to the other. So
then it became this thing of the collection of
your favorite songs. That's how that came about.
Well, you recently released a new memoir entitled
Living on a Prayer, Big Songs, Big Life, which
I'm sure is going to be coming up a lot through
our conversation tonight. So without further
ado, let's just start diving into some of those
big songs. The first song I'd like to talk about
is House of Fire, a song you wrote with Alice
Cooper and Joan Jett for Alice's 1989 album Trash.
However, in 2014, it surfaced as a bonus track
on Bon Jovi's deluxe edition of New Jersey. When
you're writing songs, do you write with an artist
in mind, or is this an example of... House of
Fire is a Desmond Childs song first and foremost,
but let's see where it fits with a few artists
before the decision is made. Because to me, both
versions of this song are amazing, and I think
that speaks volume to the strength of the song
in the first place. Are they identical lyric
-wise and everything? The main verses and choruses
are identical, yes, but there are some different
nuances throughout the song and a little bridge
in the middle that is different in the Bon Jovi
version. I need to check that out. This is how
the song began. I was co -writing with Joan Jett
and I had the title House of Fire, you know,
and it just seemed like so Joan Jett to me. And
then we started working on it. But in the end,
she says, I don't think this is for me. And so,
you know, it was like House of Fire, House of
Fire, you know, like it seems like right in the
same wheelhouse of I love rock and roll. Yeah.
I hate myself for loving you. Right. It's just
that kind of droney kind of girl gang kind of
vocal. Right. And so she wasn't taken to it.
And so then I think I played it for John and
Richie and they were like, no, I mean, you know,
it's like Joan Jett. I mean, it already has like,
you know, another writer on it and she's a girl
and kind of thing. And it's like. No, but you're
not understanding. Joe Jed is not just a girl,
you know, like she's like an amazing like boy
girl, right? And so then, you know, I just dropped
it and then I brought it to Alice Cooper. He
loved it because, you know, it has that hell
and brimstone kind of thing, house of fire. It's
like a world Alice Cooper would live in. So because
I had started with Joan, I brought in Alice and
we finished the song. I had no idea that John
and Richie kind of didn't let it go. It is a
demo version on the deluxe two CD edition of
New Jersey. Yeah. I don't know how it is. And
they worked on Trash, but they didn't hear the
other songs. So they didn't know that I was still
developing House of Fire. So it's one of those
kind of faux pas. And really, they should have
grabbed it from the beginning. I hate myself
for loving you. He just listened to the song
and he just said, fuck you. And he walked away
from me. And I think he liked it. Yeah, I'd say
so. He said, why'd you write that with her? And
I said, well, I co -wrote it with her. It's like
the day one that I met her. It's like, ah, you
just walked away. Because it would have been
so perfect for him, right? For Bon Jovi, it has
that kind of bratty thing, right? Definitely,
yeah. And so somehow, you know, I'm sort of the
virus that keeps infecting everybody with these
hooks. Well, while we're on the topic of Alice
Cooper, Trash was kind of a comeback album for
Alice, even though at the time I was young enough,
as were a lot of people my age. To have that
album be my introduction to Alice Cooper, which
I have to add, my father took full advantage
of because as soon as I told my dad that I was
a fan of this. quote unquote, new artist, Alice
Cooper. He took me on a journey back through
his older albums. But this echoes a similar situation
for you with Aerosmith and their 1987 album,
Permanent Vacation, which for them was a comeback
album. Was this a common situation you found
yourself in through the 80s? Or is this comeback
album, Desmond Child Connection, more happenstance?
Well, I think what happened was, you know, I
had My first big hit with a rock band was Kiss,
which I collaborated with Paul Stanley. And we
wrote, I Was Made For Loving You. And so that
was such a huge global success that then bands
were like, well, the A &R guys, like John Klodner,
were kind of saying, oh, you know. And oh, then
Bon Jovi met me through Paul Stanley. So that's
the connection there. And then we had instant
success with You Give Love a Bad Name and Living
on a Prayer. And so then John Klonner called
me because he wanted me to co -write with Steven
Tyler and Joe Perry for their next record. They
had done a record called Dunwick Mirrors. And
it wasn't a commercial success. And so it seemed
like I was the golden boy of the hour. So they
thought, well, this is a great guy that you can
put in a room and he'll collaborate with the
artist. And they come up with something good.
So that's how that started. And with Aerosmith,
it was very reluctantly agreed for me to come
and try to work with them. And the first day
we got together, we wrote Dude Looks Like a Lady.
So I'm sort of good on a first date. Then it
gets complicated. I was going to say, how do
you establish that rapport with an artist? Because
songwriting is something that is, at least for
me, something that you have to be very open and
very vulnerable in to kind of dive into where
the song is going to take you lyrically. How
do you instantly establish this rapport with
these artists? Well, you said two different things.
One is how do I establish the rapport? But you
also said you have to be vulnerable. Not with
these people. There's no vulnerable. There's
no vulnerable with stadium, like, hetero rock
bands. That's the opposite of what they want
to be. Vulnerable. I mean, the Kiss way is, you
know, the protagonist, who, you know, is either
Gene or Paul, they always have to be the winners.
The victors. They can never be the victim of
whatever they're singing about. So, that kind
of... We're going to make it. You know, we are
the champions. That kind of feeling is all through
their music. And that's why, you know, young
adolescent boys love them because it gave them
a kind of a superpower. You know, this kind of
rock music, you know, and the sound of the guitar
is being so electric and all that kind of stuff.
And so the vulnerable parts, you know, that's
more like, you know, when you're writing ballads,
I guess. I mean, I guess that applied to the
song Angel, you know, which was the second song
I wrote with Steven Tyler. Joe didn't come to
the session. It was the next day after we wrote
Doodle It Looks Like a Lady. And, you know, we
sat by ourselves in this big warehouse where
they were rehearsing. And I said, well, tell
me what's going on with you. What have you been
going through and all this kind of stuff? And
he's a kind of oversharer. And so he started
telling me about his struggles with substance
abuse and how he had gotten himself clean and
sober and that he had met this wonderful woman,
Teresa, who he married, and that she was his
angel. And so he sings, I'm alone, and I don't
know if I can face the night. That's kind of
vulnerability. Yeah, that's where I was going.
And so we wrote the song. And it was a hit as
well. But it was never one of Stephen's favorite
songs. And they were very reluctant to perform
it because they felt it was too pop for their
audience, for their brand. Even though later
on, we wrote Crazy and we wrote What It Takes.
Those songs were tougher sounding. And so there's
always that. I had gotten together with John.
by Jovi and Richie Sambora for the New Jersey
album after we had all that success with Slippery
When Wet. And we wrote a bunch of songs as one
does, and then they pick the ones that fit the
best. There was a song we wrote called We All
Sleep Alone that was for that record. And John
said, you know what? This is too moody, too sensitive,
too slow. This is like a chick song. And I was
working with Cher and I said, well, do you mind
if I play this for Cher? And she loved it and
it fit her persona perfectly because she was
like tabloid queen. So you saw her jumping in
and out of relationships. So the song has this
ominous feeling and it says, sooner or later,
we all sleep alone, meaning in the ground. So
it's like a song about loneliness and about you
have to... You've got to be strong when you're
out on your own. Sooner or later, we all sleep
alone. Right? That wasn't my best Cher imitation.
But the sound of the words fit her tone perfectly.
And she made a gorgeous video of that song. And
John and Richie. co -produced that with me, I
think, for Cher. I think they played on it. The
band by Jovi played on it and John and Richie
were the co -producers. And we also cut a second
song, which was my obsession with a song called
Bang Bang. Bang, bang, he shot me down. Bang,
bang, my baby shot me down. And so, we reimagined
it as this heavy rock song like... I was five
and he was six, laid on horses made of sticks.
But the original song was only like two minutes
long. So I realized the song only had one verse.
So I drove down to Palm Springs and met with
Sadi Bado, who had written the song originally
and solely wrote it. And I asked him to write
a second verse and he agreed to do it. And I
just sat in the room while he came up with it,
you know, and then I took the lyrics with me
and we went and we cut it. How cool is that?
That's amazing. And so, you know, last night,
I'm in Palm Springs right now on vacation and
I was walking down the street and I saw like
the Walk of Fame and there was a star, you know,
they have stars on the Walk of Fame. And I like
stumbled upon Sonny Bono's star. It was like,
wow. You know, and then there was like a space
and then came another star. So there's like enough
space for me to have my star. And so I'm going
to find out about it, you know, because I want
to be next to Sonny Bono. You know, it reminds
me about when Hugh Hefner, when Marilyn Monroe
died, they put her in this mausoleum, right?
At the edge of Brentwood, you know, over there.
in Santa Monica. I forget the name of it, Fourslot
or something. And he bought the niche on top
of hers because he said, that's where I want
to be buried because people throughout time will
always go and pay their respects at the tomb
of Marilyn Monroe. They're not going to do that
for me, but they'll see that I'm buried on top
of her. I want to say that I'm on top of Marilyn
Monroe. I think that's where they buried him.
He might have changed his scheme, but I know
that story. So I want my star to be next to Sonny
Bono's. How's that? All right. Well, while we
were just talking about John and Richie, obviously
you talked about the songs you wrote with them
for Slippery When Wet and New Jersey. I want
to actually talk about two songs that are two
of my favorites that are on later albums that
I've always told people I feel don't get. as
much love as the songs from Slippery in New Jersey.
And the first one being the title track to 1992's
Keep the Faith, which introduced almost a new
musical dynamic with the band in this almost
gospel -esque type sound. And I would love to
know how that flavor came through in that track
and how it was decided to kind of bring that
to Bon Jovi, because that was kind of a new sound
for them. Well, I had moved to Miami and sort
of got involved with Latin music because I'm
Cuban. So I came home to Miami Beach where I
had gone to high school and everything. And I
was going to these salsa clubs and learning how
to dance salsa and everything. It was a lot of
fun. And it was around the time that I met Ricky
Martin and had like huge hit Live in La Vida
Loca and The Cup of Life. And so for that album,
you know, I met with John and Richie and Richie
was still with Heather Locklear and they lived
in Thousand Oaks or something. And this gorgeous
house up on this hilltop. I mean, it was like
a movie set. Everything was beige, you know,
like very chic. And John said, you know, I love
that Vita Loca, like let's write something that
has a beat like that. And so I think that's how
it kind of developed. Not so much gospel. But
it ended up being that way because I think they
did add a kind of gospel feeling to it. And also,
Tico's Cuban as well. I'm half Cuban. So there's
that Cuban connection, that Latin beat is kind
of going through it. So that's how that song
came about. But remember, 1992, bands like Bon
Jovi and Aerosmith and Kiss and everybody else
I worked with could not get through. to get their
songs played on MTV or their videos and VH1.
So it was harder to promote a single. Then you
had to just do it just based on the fans that
you had and, you know, a terrestrial radio. But
then at that time, radio was already, you know,
splitting off rock stations, heavy rock stations,
Americana, Heartland, you know. alternative,
goth, heavy metal. I mean, there was a station
for every kind of sound. When I was growing up
in the ghettos of Miami and Liberty City, and
it was a mixed race neighborhood, people with
white, Latino, African -American, we all played
together in the swing sets and somebody always
had a transistor radio. There was one station
to listen to. So you'd hear Aretha Franklin come
on. and then you'd hear the Beatles, and then
you'd hear Dionne Warwick, and then you'd hear
the Monkees. Every song was a different style.
So you learn to appreciate every song in different
styles. But when they figured out they can have
thousands of stations and really target markets
and all of that, it was part of the dumbing of
America, I think. It was this whole idea of if
somebody likes something, then they should just
Like that and nothing else. I like every flavor
imaginable when it comes to music. Well, I'm
glad you said music. Well, the other track I
want to bring up is from 1995's These Days album.
And it's my favorite song on that album that.
incorporated an electric sitar for the lead.
And that's something for the pain, which I thought
was a very unique thing to bring to Bon Jovi.
And I was curious if that was a Richie decision
or what to have the sitar kind of be the lead
instrument, because it really gave the song a
unique flair and it really stood out because
of that. Well, I've never been a producer on
Bon Jovi tracks. I'm just. the co -writer, and
then they do whatever they're going to do. And
we were very, very, very lucky that for Slippery
and for New Jersey, they had the brilliant Bruce
Fairbourn with his engineer, Bob Rock. And so
then he passed away and Aerosmith was using the
same carbonation. So the bands were one band
coming in one door and the other band going out
the other door. It was kind of like that. And
so we were very lucky. And then All these different
things happen and, you know, these different
producers were brought in to work with both bands.
And those producers might have had an influence
in how that particular song came out. You know,
John and Richie were always big fans of the Beatles.
And so, you know, they had gone through their
Indian phase, you know, the Beatles hat, you
know, they went to India. And so that kind of
wove its way into their music. So maybe it was
a kind of a tribute kind of element to the Beatles.
I want to touch on that when you're talking about
the Beatles, because there's something that when
I was 10 years old, listening to these songs
on my cassette tapes growing up, I noticed something
through three of the songs that you happen to
write that as I got older, started looking back
and saying that might be a nod to the Beatles.
And this is something now I've wondered for 35
years. Bon Jovi's Living on a Prayer, Alice Cooper's
House of Fire, which we talked about earlier,
and Joan Jett's Little Liar. All three songs
towards the end use a key change in the chorus
to kind of reintroduce the song and bring you
back in at the end. And that's something the
Beatles did in the early days. How do you decide
when a key change is important to bring to a
song versus not necessary? It all is different.
I never had Beatles in mind when I suggest key
changes, especially the most effective one was
Living Out of Prayer. Yeah. Because when they
did the first demo, you know, they did the key
change, but there was a drum fill for like a
full measure before the key change came in. And
I suggest that they drop a beat. Live for the
fight when that's all that we got, oh. Then the
oh is on one after a bar of three. Yes. So, all
that you got, oh, as opposed to, all that you
got, one, two, three, four, oh. See what I'm
saying? I thought that sounded corny, but the
sudden surprise of the key change is what makes
that song. But also, John has cursed me, you
know, like mercilessly for suggesting the key
change, you know, because it put the song in
the stratosphere. Key wise, you know, and, you
know, in those days, then no problem. But, you
know, as when maturism becomes more badly, your
voice starts to drop a little bit. So, you know,
that's the thing. I think that because of how
I grew up and because I always loved pop music
and, you know, the Four Seasons and the Beach
Boys and things like that, to me. Key changes
always added like a new... After you've heard
the chorus twice, to bring the key change in
on the last chorus brought a new color to it.
I never liked half -step key changes. I like
full, whole -step key changes. Now, I think with
Living Out Prayer was even more so. I think it
was a minor third up and it was like, wow, the
song just exploded. So, I believe in key changes.
But you can't do it, you know, gratuitously.
Right. It has to earn its keep. It has to be
worth it. Or it can be like, you know, oh, this
song really isn't strong enough to stand on its
own, then throw the key change in there. So at
least you get another shot at somebody like ear
picking up and listening to that chorus. Because,
you know, to have a hit, it's repeated listening.
That's why I prefer the bad old days. of payola
because they could buy you know the record labels
could buy into you know a program director and
wine and dine them and you know give them coke
and hookers and you know every you know private
planes and all this kind of stuff to get repeated
listening but then the suits and the bean counters
took control and they wanted what they call like
polling or whatever, they started to play a song
in Iowa at three o 'clock in the morning. And
if one phone lit up, then the band wouldn't be
dropped. You know, it's like a song has to be
listened to several times. Sometimes you go,
you know, I really don't like that song. And
then all of a sudden, after you hear it a few
times, then it sinks in and then you like it.
You know, I was like that with Tearless Whisper.
You know, when I heard that song, maybe I was
just... pure jealous, right? And there's this
gorgeous George Michael, you know, and there
was that like guilty feet, they got no rhythm.
And I just thought that was the stupidest thing
I'd ever heard. Guilty feet, stinky feet. I don't
know. It just rubbed me the wrong way. And now
it's like my favorite song in the world. I mean,
I just love it so much. And I totally... I don't
even think about it. It's just part of the fabric
of my being because, you know, I've heard it
so many times. You make up your own kind of narrative
to the songs you listen to. I once had a guy
come up to me, you know, and he said, you wrote
that song with Aerosmith called Do a Naked Lady.
That's how he heard it. Instead of dude looks
like a lady, he heard it as do a naked lady.
And I said, yup. That's it. That's exactly what
I wrote. Why destroy his world? But the song
was originally, if I'm not mistaken, I've seen
you talk about the fact that the song was originally
called cruising for the ladies. I don't know
if that would have had the same impact. Well,
I mean, I hadn't even said hello to them. I was,
I was led into the big warehouse where they were
rehearsing and Steven said, you know, come with
me, come with me. And I didn't say, hi, I'm Desmond,
no, nothing. I said, come with me, come with
me. And on the side of the stage, the monitor
guy was there and they had recorded a guitar
lick backwards. I mean, they were playing it
backwards and you know, which kind of reminded
me of ZZ Top kind of thing. And so, you started
singing, cruising for the ladies, like, you know,
and Then they stopped and they said, well, what
do you think of that? I said, that's really bad.
And they were like in shock and Joe was like
crossing his arms, you know, like looking at
me sideways, you know, like this, you know. And
then Steven, who's, you know, like I said, people
pleaser, he said, well, originally I was singing
Dude Looks Like a Lady. I said, stop right there.
That's a hit title. And Joe said, but we don't
know what that means. And I said, well. I know
what that means. He said, well, we don't want
to insult the gay community. I said, I'm gay.
You're not insulting nobody. That's fun. And
that song has endured the test of time and has
a great lesson to tell, which is never judge
a book by its cover of who you're going to love
by your lover. Because, hey, if it looks good
to you, go for it. Or if you have a feeling,
go for it. Well, that's a top three Aerosmith
song for me. I've always loved that one. Well,
you know, I loved it because, you know, it sort
of brought them back big time and they made the
funnest video. And when Steven was singing, dude
looks like a lady, you thought he was singing
about himself because of the big lips and, you
know, eyeliner and the painted nails and all
this kind of stuff. So it's like, dude looks
like a lady. It's like he was like, say, almost
like. I'm a dude and I look like a lady. And
he looks like a lady now. He always has this
androgynous look. He's never lost that. That's
what was cool about the 70s when I was coming
up and listening to David Bowie and Mick Jagger
and hearing all kinds of stories about all these
kind of... non -binary relationships and things
that were going I said that's what it means to
be a rock star well I want to be that you know
so that's why I mean I mean I got I had gone
to so many drag shows you know growing up you
know because that's where you went to a bar and
there always would be a drag show so that's how
you know we came up with this idea but actually
it stemmed from a true story because I asked
him how'd you come up with do looks like a lady
and he said Well, we went to this bar on the
shore and me and my guys, you know, the roadies
and stuff. And it was like almost empty and set
their long, lonely bar. And at the end was this
kind of vision of loveliness, this like bouffant
platinum mullet with like porcelain skin, black
nails and jewelry and curvy figure, you know,
voluptuous. And they were like drawing straws
who was going to go and say hello, right? Hit
on her, right? So all of a sudden she turns around
and it's Vince Neil of Motley Crue. And so that's
when Steven said, oh, that dude looks like a
lady. Dude looks like a lady. Dude looks like
a lady. And so he loves alliteration. Dude looks
like a lady. I mean, you know, the D and all
that. But when he went to go and write the song.
You know, I'm sure that it would, you know, that
idea was like not even brought out on the table.
You know, he just changed it to Cruisin' for
the Ladies because that's what would be expected
of a hetero rock band. But I, you know, as a
joke, I said, I don't think Van Halen would put
that on the B -side of their worst record to
see if I could get them to laugh. And there was,
no, that fell on deaf ears. No, no, they didn't
think that was funny. That was like another insult.
Well, look, at the time in the 1980s, glam metal
was massive. I mean, you think about bands like
Poison and Warrant. They all had the Aquanet
hair. That song was very. timely for the state
of the hairband scene. I mean, if you watched
Headbangers Ball in the 1980s on MTV, there was
more Aquanet throughout that show where even
artists who didn't do the hairband thing changed
their look. Like Hart started teasing their hair
up when they did their version of I -10s alone.
It was very much the mid to late 80s. That was
the look. Right. Exactly. Just like when Ricky
Martin came out. And he had that frosted blip
up the front. I mean, which was a very gay look,
right? Every straight dude in America got their
hair cut like that and frosted the front and
flipped up. So you couldn't tell who was gay
and who wasn't anymore. Because that was sort
of like a signature look. So it's the same thing.
When stars create a fashion, look at when Cyndi
Lauper came out and she had this look. you know,
with the teased up hair and it was like also
teased up, but it was more like a rooster and
there was like different colors, purple and green
and all pink and all this kind of colors like
that. And then Madonna was making a movie called
Desperately Seeking Susan and she like verbatim
copied Cyndi Lauper's look for the character.
And suddenly, Everybody had that look. Every
girl had that look. Thrift shop clothes, lots
of bangles and kind of like flea market look
and like raggedy ends and all this kind of stuff.
And I heard that Cyndi Lauper went crazy that
her look was stolen. That was her look. But Madonna
became massive. Everybody wanted to look like
her. So that's what happened. So teased up mullets.
I mean, they've been in fashion since, you know,
the days of Louis XVI. Right. And they're coming
back. I mean, there are a lot of rock bands now
that are incorporating that look again. I've
seen it in both rock and in some country artists
still. The mullet is definitely back in country
music for sure. Well, everything old is new again.
Amen. Because, you know, it's fun, you know.
Well, now I want to dive into a couple of songs
and projects that you've done in some of the
later years that I've gravitated towards. And
one of them was back around 2010, I bought Weezer's
Hurley album. Not reading the liner notes, I
put the album in. I started listening. And when
I got to track three, when it was done, I had
to play it a second time and a third time and
a fourth time. And I instantly fell in love with
the track. But then I finished the album. got
home, put it in my CD player, opened up the book
and saw that the song was co -written by Desmond
Child. And I went, well, that explains why this
song resonated with me. That was the one time
you worked with Rivers Cuomo and Weezer. And
to me, that song is definitely the strongest
on Hurley. I'd love to know. Because that song
to me sounds like a takedown of reality TV shows
like Jersey Shore, which was massive at the time.
And being from New Jersey, listening to those
lyrics, I'm like, I think they're talking about
us. I would love to know more about this tune.
Well, I don't know. I just love the title Trainwreck.
And, you know, I started, you know, writing the
song with Rivers and he was like egging me on
like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, keep
going, keep going, keep going. And, you know,
the idea is like the couple in the song, they're
so dumb, like they think that they're cool, you
know, and so even though everybody thinks that
they're trash. And so it has really, really clever
lyrics like digging in the couch for some cash.
And, you know, their car is wrecked. They can't
get in their car. They have no gas for it. Like
they're just flat broke, but they can still party.
So they're like party crashers. So they're just
like heard there was a party and they show up
and, you know, get free drugs. And it was kind
of like a Bonnie and Clyde of, you know, trashy
people. Yeah. And so that's why I love the song
so much because it's like, if you really listen
to the song and you know, it's like, you can
really imagine those two, like a trashy, trashy
version of Pamela Anderson and Tommy Lee. That's
what I had in my mind. Like, they're like, you
know, the Duke and Duchess of Windsor compared
to the characters in that song. Yes, yes. Basically
speaking, I kind of, I was thinking about the
Rolling Stones a little bit. You know? Yeah,
a little bit. I was thinking like Stones, like,
you know, kind of, I don't know, kind of like
that kind of jangly, kind of bouncy rock that
has a little soul, a little bit of soul music.
And I hadn't once. read this article that this
professor of music history had determined that
the most successful songs in pop had an element
in them that was R &B. Like when the music didn't
have an element of soul, they didn't last as
long, they didn't stay number one as long, they
didn't, you know, and so there was like a quotient
of how much soul in a song. And I look at, you
know, the success of I Was Made For Loving You,
you know, the dance beat with the rock guitars.
Then later on with You Give Love a Bad Name and
Living on Prayer, the Motown bass, you know,
it's very like Jackson 5 in a way. Yes. So I
kind of always had that in the back of my mind.
You know, if there's a soul element, the song
is much more listenable and stands the test of
time so much better. When I hear the song, I
hear that now that you're saying that, especially
in the bridge where it's, that's just cause they're
jealous of me. And yeah, like that, the hair
on my arm stands up cause it's just, it's so
musical and it pulls you into the song so much.
And that's, that's what really I fell in love
with that song for. I love those characters.
It's like, people love to tell us what to do.
You know, it's like. You really should get a
job or you really should do this. But that's
just because they're jealous. You know, it's
like, how about because you're a train wreck?
But I love that kind of dual reality. Yes. You
know, like the listener is in on the joke. So
I love that. Multi -layered for sure. Now, in
2006, you stepped in to write and produce songs
for Meatloaf's Bad Outta Hell 3, The Monster
Is Loose. And for those that don't know, Bad
Outta Hell 1 and 2 were a product of Meatloaf
and singer -songwriter Jim Steinman. So when
you're walking into a project that has a decades
-long legacy because of 77's Bad Outta Hell 1
and 93's Bad Outta Hell 2, what was it like stepping
in to create the third chapter of that album's
story, if you will, but bring your own unique...
songwriting perspective to what Meatloaf was
bringing to the first two albums? Well, I think
that I was very naive and I was so blown away
that I could do it. At that time, Meatloaf and
Jim Steinman were in a terrible lawsuit over
the brand name Bad Out of Hell because Jim Steinman
wrote a Broadway musical, Bad Out of Hell, and
Meatloaf didn't want him to use that as the title.
He says, no, those are the names of my albums.
It said, yeah, but I actually wrote those words.
I wrote those songs. You're not the author of
those songs. I am. That's my title. So it turned
into this $30 million lawsuit, something. And
in the middle of that, he needed to tour and
he needed to jumpstart his career. So they brought
me in because I was the closest thing to Jim
Steinman. that they could find because I had
similar roots, East Coast, Brill Building, Phil
Spector -y kind of background. And also, you
know, the Bon Jovi, you know, kind of Springsteen
-esque Jersey sound was, you know, I had been
successful with that. And, you know, I was, you
know, big fan of Jim Steinman, just Total Eclipse
of the Heart is a masterpiece. Yes. And so I
jumped at the chance to do it, but I was really
kind of... used as a kind of pawn, I think Meat
Loaf thought like, well, I'll make Jim jealous
and then he'll want to like settle the lawsuit
and then come back and actually produce the real
Fat Outta Hell 3. So, which, you know, but the
album became one of the most expensive albums
I've ever made or of all time. It was like $2
million budget. Wow. It took nine months. And
they loaded up the album with seven Jim Steinman
songs that came from different sources. Like
Jim Steinman had a vampire musical. So they grabbed
Land of the Pigs and stuff like that from that.
And Jim Steinman had a solo record. So they took
songs from that. And Jim Steinman had written
songs for other artists like Celine Dion. It's
all coming back to me now. And they wanted to
do that as a duet. And so they're like stabbing
Jim Steinman songs on it. And then I wrote some
great, amazing songs with John Five and James
Michael, Blindness of Bat. I mean, it's like
masterpiece unto itself. The Monster is Loose.
No, I think Monster is Loose. I'm confusing the
co -writers, but Marty Fredrickson, Diane Warren
contributed a wonderful ballad. And I worked
with Holly Knight. And I think we were coming
up with a new direction, a fresh new direction,
if you listen to those songs. The other songs
were just overblown recreations of Steinman's
style. But in the end, they settled. And then
I think Milov had a case of feeling very guilty
that he had proceeded to move forward a bit out
of Hall 3 without Jim. So he has, before he passed
away, He actually had the album pulled off of
Spotify in the US only because he doesn't control
the global, the worldwide version of that album.
So it's everywhere in the world except for the
US, which is the only part of it that he controlled.
And he ended up making his last record with Jim
Steinman, which maybe those were the songs that
Jim wanted to save for Bad Outta Hell 3. And
so I don't remember the title of it. I mean,
it was like larger than both of us or something
like that. And the, both of them are on the cover,
like the backs of them. And they're like facing
hell and damnation, like this big, like whirlpool
of fire and brimstone and all this kind of stuff.
Cause you know, those bad out of hell covers
always had that kind of imagery. Yep. And you
know, you know, I'm very sorry that he passed
away and You know, I had hoped that I could,
you know, get him to understand that while I
was making Bad Out of Hell 3 on the Jim Steinman
songs, I was consulting with Jim behind the scenes.
You know, I was sending him the rough mixes,
getting his opinion. He never, like, said I was
doing anything wrong. He just always said, oh,
sounds fantastic. You're doing a great job. So
it was blessed by Jim Steinman, you know, because
he cared. And so I never got to tell me about
that aspect. And then I was very shocked to hear
that he, in an interview with Rollies or something,
he said, well, bad out of hell three doesn't
exist. There's only bad out of hell one and bad
out of hell two. It doesn't exist. Wow. You know,
so it was very mean to say because I had put
nine months of my life on hold with high overhead
of my own. And then in the end, you didn't pay
me my back end, which is $65 ,000. And, you know,
it's like, that was like a month's worth of my
expenses. And I had little toddlers that I never
saw, you know, it was my husband and I had twin
sons and they were like three and four and five
years old around that time. And I never got to
see them for those nine months because I'd work
really late. They'd be asleep. I'd wake up late.
They'd be gone to school. And I worked through
weekends to bring the album in on time for his
tour. And I wasn't appreciated for it. So it
really hurt my feelings. And it's like one of
those things that's like, you wish that everything
was like tied up in a neat little bow. But that
piece is like raggedy shreds that never got fixed.
It's all in my book. Live it out of prayer. Big
songs, big life. Big problems too. I was going
to say from a fan perspective, I just want you
to know that there are three bad out of hell
albums. I love the work that you did on volume
three. And I also read a tidbit that you played
Slipknot for the band in order to put the mindset
of what you were looking to do musically in some
of the songs. Yeah. Can you talk about that?
Well, I think in the monster is loose. I mean,
what I loved about Slipknot was this like, kind
of like, short little things. And I think like,
you know, kind of like there was space between
the notes. And I think they would almost be like
dead space. It wasn't like you heard amps and
reverbs and things spilling over. It was like
very tight. And I just loved Slipknot. And I
thought, well, that would be a great direction
to put him into because it would get radio play
on rock radio. on active rock and all of that.
And so that's why I was kind of guiding it away
from that pompous, braggadocious Broadway style.
So I was hoping to bring him into the here and
now instead of just throwback in the past. But
then I had like seven songs and then they made
me cut another seven songs. It was like making
a double album. And of those songs, you could
hardly ever copy and paste. You had to every...
piece of it had to be recorded separate you know
like of its own yes and some of these songs were
six seven minutes long so a 14 song album with
songs that were seven minutes long that's almost
like a triple album so that's why it costs so
much because every demon choir orchestras you
know 60 piece orchestras i mean it was so much
went into it i mean i think it's a fantastic
journey and i And, you know, maybe your listeners
could find some way to hear it. It really is
very fulfilling to hear it. And I got a chance
to speak with Pearl Adeg, Meatloaf's daughter,
this year. I reached out to her and she was so
nice. And, you know, I gave my condolences and
it was like, wow, you know, it's such a shame
because he was really a national monument unto
himself. You know, he was like bigger than life.
And it's a big, huge loss to the world that he
has gone. I agree. Now, while we've been talking
about so many bands tonight, we've brought them
up a couple of times, but I know that my weekly
mixtape listeners would be pissed if we don't
talk a little bit about Kiss tonight. And you
mentioned earlier the song I Was Made For Loving
You, which at the time was a departure for the
band, bringing disco into the band sound. No,
you said the wrong word. It wasn't disco. Really?
It was Motown. Motown. It was Motown. Okay. It
was dance beat. Dance feet with heavy rock guitars.
No disco. It was not disco. You know, that's
how we were pegged by, you know, the haters of
Kiss. And so, you know, it didn't help that Gene
was negative about the song. He thought it was
off -brand, you know, for Kiss to come up with
something like that. But the fact is that it's
their biggest international hit of all time.
And it gets licensed over and over time and time
again. One of my biggest moneymakers ever. And,
you know, that song brought me together with
Paul. That was the second song we wrote. First
song we wrote was called The Fight. We co -wrote
that with David Landau, our guitarist from Desmond
Child and Rouge. And I said, okay, well, let's
write a song, you know, for your project. And
he was like looking at me like, you don't know
G. You know, he already was imagining whatever
we came up with Gene would reject. And so we
wrote the song and it was magic in the studio
with the producer Vinny Poncia, who's also credited
as a co -writer. I'm not quite sure what he brought
to it, but he brought something and made it a
hit. And so for that, I'm forever grateful. And
then Paul, it was like one of those things, like
he was not encouraged to keep writing with me,
but then he did. And we wrote Heavens on Fire,
which was another hit for them. Now with the
makeup off. And then we wrote, you know, Who
Wants to Be Lonely? I mean, I love that song.
And being a big fan of the Crazy Nights album,
you have to talk about reason to live. Reason
to live. You know, everybody's got a reason to
live. Because I was trying to bring into it the
kind of more like soulful storyline. that i was
kind of working on with other bands you know
kind of everybody's got a reason to live you
know just like just like that idea that concept
and i think that that song showed you know how
varied kiss can be yeah i mean they had a huge
hit with beth i mean where did that come from
i know it was you know the other guy's song but
they went with it and it was like huge Huge hit.
I mean, to this day, whenever anybody plays a
song, you want to listen to it. It pulls on the
heartstrings. And I went to see Kiss's last performance
at Madison Square Garden last month. It was December
2nd. And I went with my husband and our son Nero,
because our son Roman was in Europe. He had spent
a semester in Europe, so he didn't get to go.
and with our, you know, production manager, Brian
Coleman. And it was just so emotional to see
them perform their last show. I mean, the way
that Paul looked up, you know, where we were
like sitting just like, it was like, I mean,
my heart was breaking. And they also in that
show, they showed how versatile they are. They
had so many musical moments and all that, like.
in harmony guitar work, you know, I mean, virtuoso.
And the way that Paul's character is like in
a way like Alice Cooper's, you know, it's like,
that's not Paul, that's his character, that's
Starchild, right? And, you know, he was like
slagging it up, you know, like never before.
And, you know, it was just so, so sweet. And
they'll be forever because I'm sure that they'll
be morphed into holograms and into, you know,
you'll go to a KISS show and you'll feel like
they're there. Yeah, through the avatars, uh
-huh. I saw the ABBA show in London twice. The
second time I went, I actually had tears because
when they sing that song, The Winter Takes It
All, and you know that that's about them breaking
up, you know, and what they went through. I mean,
emotionally, The Winter Takes It All was a very
bitter divorce. And it was just so emotional
how they like rendered it on the stage with these
avatars. Like, you know, the avatars were like,
you could see every pore in their skin. You could
see crooked little teeth. You could see a little
scar. You could see, you know, stray hairs. They
were so realistic. And you could see their eyes
well up with tears. And, you know, it was just,
I think it's great. You know, some people think
it's a bad thing. I don't. It's like going to
see a movie. You know, Pirates of the Caribbean.
You expect that to be real? No. It's entertainment.
You know, and, you know, Kiss has always been
very theatrical anyway. And those avatars they
created, they created avatars before there were
avatars. You know, large, you know, platform
shoes, bigger than life, big hair. I mean, between
the hair, the platform shoes, they were like
over seven feet tall. You know, these creatures.
And, you know, I don't see any reason. I mean,
there's so much creativity that now they can
get into that they can do in person. You know,
they could make somebody like do a spin and then
disappear in a puff of smoke and then show up
in a new costume like in seconds later. And I
think it's like a great thing because they'll
be able to preserve their legacy forever. The
people from the future will want to see it the
way we love to hear Mozart. Hundreds of years
into the future. Why not? Well, I think it would
be safe to say, looking at the list of songs
we've touched on in this past hour, that hundreds
of years from now, people will still be talking
about the songs that Desmond Child has written.
With that in mind, are there any songs that you
wrote? Or a single song that you wrote that has
a deep personal meaning to you. Not talking about
if the song is a hit or what other people think
of the song. I'm talking about a song that has
a deep personal connection to you. Well, one
of my favorite songs of all time is a song called
Weird that I wrote with those three kids from
Hanson. Yeah. Yeah. Isaac was 16. Taylor was
14. And Zach was nine years old. When I told
Diane Warren that I was going to write with a
nine -year -old, she said, Desmond, you've reached
your lowest low. But this is before Umbop came
out, right? Ah, okay, yeah. So this song, we
had made it out to that record. And after they
sold six million records, she called me for their
number. I guess she hit her lowest low, right?
I mean, it's like, that song is magic. And to
me, it's about growing up, you know, poor. growing
up Latino, growing up gay, you know, being an
outcast, feeling like I didn't fit in, I didn't
get invited to the cool parties and all of that.
Now I do by my classmates. You know, we had our
50th anniversary of the class of 72. And now
they're inviting me and they say, oh, well, you
were so cool then. It's like, then why didn't
you invite me to? to the cool parties that you
guys were having. And so that song, Being Weird,
it's one of my favorite songs of all time. And
I sing it sometimes when I do these acoustic
sets and all that. And it has a beautiful bridge.
It really reminds me of my idols, Burt Bacharach
and Hal David. Sitting on the side, waiting for
a sign, hoping that my luck will change. Reaching
for a hand that'll understand someone who feels
the same. When you live in a cookie cutter world,
being different is a sin. So you don't stand
out and you don't fit in. Weird. I mean, that's
so profound. Awesome. Well, Desmond, this has
been an absolute honor. I hope we could chat
again sometime down the road because I haven't
even scratched the surface of Desmond Child songs
that I would love to know more about. But I thank
you so much for joining me on my weekly mixtape.
Well, invite me again. You know, when my audio
book comes out, I'll be promoting my audio book
in a few months. You know, so yes, please invite
your fans and your tribe. to follow me at desmond
.child on Instagram. And then all the news that's
fit to print is in there. And I tell a lot of
stories and I'm on there like every day. My husband's
like, get off the phone. I'm there like answering
questions and everything. I just love it. It's
like I have a million point two best friends.
That's how I look at it because I had a lowly
childhood. So now I have a million point two
friends. That's not enough. Well, I am certainly
one of them. And this has been an absolute pleasure,
sir. Thank you for the time tonight. Thank you.
Thank you. And remember, you can head to myweeklymixtape
.com to hear a playlist of all the songs we've
discussed in tonight's episode, as well as check
out the full catalog of My Weekly Mixtape episodes.
And if you like what you're hearing on the show,
you can help me out by either telling a friend,
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That's all for this week. Thanks again for listening.
And until next time. Enjoy the tunes.