Hey, this is Ed Toth, drummer for the Doobie
Brothers, and you're listening to My Weekly Mixtape
with Brian Colburn. So, turn it up. Welcome to
My Weekly Mixtape, a podcast that takes the classic
mixtape approach to building a modern playlist.
I'm your host, Brian Colburn. This past summer,
you might recall the album dive episode of the
show that spotlighted Vertical Horizon's Everything
You Want 25th Anniversary Edition, featuring
a sit -down with the band's Matt Scannell. Tonight,
I'm absolutely honored to have Ed Toth on the
show, who not only was the drummer for Vertical
Horizon during that era of the band, but in the
20 years since he's left Vertical Horizon, has
been behind the kit for the legendary rock band,
as well as Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductees,
the Doobie Brothers. Ed, thank you so much for
joining me on My Weekly Mixtape. It's an absolute
pleasure to have you on the show. No, it's my
pleasure to be here, man. Thanks for having me.
Well, as a first -time guest, I'd like to start
by asking you, what does the word mixtape mean
to you? Oh, man. So I made a lot of mixtapes
when I was in high school. And just for reference
for anybody that might be listening, I was in
high school from 83 to 87. which was probably
the penultimate time or the ultimate time to
be making mixtapes because that was kind of a
thing. And not only did I certainly make the
mixtape for the girl, you know, here's some songs
you might like, but I would just make them for
fun. In fact, I would call them, you know, various
artists. And I think by the time I was done with
high school, I had like 22 volumes of various
artists' cassettes. a slew of friends that would
insist that I make a copy for them. So I was
kind of a DJ without being a DJ. I always thought
that being a DJ would be fun, although for a
lot of reasons, I just never went there at all.
I was never a DJ when I was in college and never
had any real sort of aspirations to be a DJ.
And by DJ, I mean like a radio disc jockey, not
somebody spinning tunes at a wedding or something.
So I never went that route, but that was kind
of my own way, I think, of being able to do that.
And the fact that I garnered a small but fun
following of friends who wanted to hear what
I came up with next was pretty cool. Mixtaping,
you're doing it right. Well, before we dive into
the Doobie Brothers music, I'd like to start
by talking a little bit about your time with
Vertical Horizon as the band's massive album,
Everything You Want, celebrated its 25th anniversary
in 2024. Could you talk about the significance
of that album with a quarter century of hindsight?
Yeah, I mean, I'm amazed it's been 25 years.
In some ways, it does feel that. It feels like
a lifetime ago. But in other ways, it kind of
just feels like it was yesterday. Because we
kind of got to ride the wave of that for a long
time. And the simple fact of the matter is that
I still hear those songs. I still get asked about
those records. Since it's come out on vinyl,
I've had a couple of people pop up here and there
looking for a signature on the record, which
is pretty cool. I haven't signed a Vertical Horizon
record in a long time. Having that happen over
the past year or two has been really fun as well.
You know, that was a really important record.
Certainly for me, it was my first time making
a major label record. It wasn't my first time
in a recording studio, but it was my first time
recording with the kind of budget that a major
label allowed. And, you know, we didn't know
if we would get another crack at it. we sort
of put everything we possibly could into that
record, including sort of finishing it, not being
totally happy with it, going back and revisiting
some of the tracks after the fact, and all of
the blood and sweat and tears that went into
not only the making of the record, but then once
it came out, the promotion of it. And we were
fortunate enough to be sort of at the tail end
of what they call the sort of golden era. of
record making where a record label, they wouldn't
just put out your record and you had a month
to make it or break it. I mean, these people
put a lot of time into working the record at
radio because they really believed in it. People
that were working at the record label at the
time, this would be RCA Records. And this would
be circa 1998 till about 2002 when things started
to really change, not only at the record label,
but in the music industry. I mean, that record
was released in the fall of 1999 and didn't really
hit until the summer of 2000. You don't get that
anymore from a record label. You're either hot
out of the gate or they're done with you. So
it was nice to experience that with all the people
that were involved in that as well, which were
real old school record label people, which was
at a time when record label people were actually
music fans. Now, I had talked with Matt about
this, but you mentioned it just now, October
19th, 1999. That's when Everything You Want was
released to alternative radio, but it didn't
reach number one on the Billboard US Hot 100
until July 15th, 2000. That's nine months for
the song to make that full ascension to number
one. And like you said, that just doesn't happen
anymore where a label gets behind a band for
that extended period of time. Can you maybe talk
about that nine -month stretch where the song
was taking off and the band made that jump from,
as Matt put it, slogging it out in bars to becoming
a band with a number one billboard hit under
their belts? Yeah, I mean, that's another thing,
too, that era of bands of just, I mean, when
I joined this band, it was campgrounds. It was
people's floors in a sleeping bag. And when I
left the band, we could at least stay in a Marriott
and have our own room, which was something at
the time. It very much was a process. You talked
about, well, you alluded to sort of different
radio formats. I mean, when the album first came
out, the record label released the single We
Are to alternative rock radio, which is where
they thought they might be able to get a foothold.
And it did okay there, but it didn't make a ton
of noise. And then when they decided they were
going to put everything you want out, they decided,
let's release this across sort of all formats.
Adult contemporary, pop, like the whole thing.
And that's when it really started to take off.
You know, it also helped that, I mean, we visited
two, three, sometimes four radio stations a day.
Wow. To shake hands. kiss babies as it were,
you know, play acoustic, talk about the album,
cut liners for the radio station, the whole thing.
And this would be after a night of doing a gig
that didn't wrap until midnight and then having
to do an eight -hour drive or so to the next
city. There was a lot of sort of, you know, what
do they call it, GI showers, just sort of dumping
a bottle of water on your head in the parking
lot of the radio station out of the van. making
yourself look decent to go in and do an interview
for the morning show. So there was a lot of work
and effort put into that. And we took what we
did very seriously. I remember as the song was
getting added to radio stations, I remember taking
a few days, one week, where we hand wrote letters
to program directors, thanking them for adding
the song. Wow. And I think that kind of thing
went a long way with the radio stations. To the
point that when we released the next single,
You're a God, it was almost a no -brainer for
any station that played everything you want to
play You're a God. Because we were team players.
And, you know, we were nice guys. We were ourselves.
We didn't put on any kind of front as a rock
and roll band or anything like that. We were
just four guys that anybody would have known
in their lives who just happened to be in a band
that was making music that resonated with people.
And one of the other hits from the album, Best
I Ever Had, Gray Sky Morning, went on to become
a top 10 country hit for Gary Allen. What were
your thoughts when you first heard your band's
song reimagined as a country tune? You know,
it's funny because I think that that either was
happening or started to happen as I was exiting
the band. So I didn't hear it for the longest
time and then I heard it. Or maybe it was right
before. I can't quite remember the timeline.
It was so long ago. But I do remember hearing
it and the sort of story behind it with Gary
Allen, who had lost his wife. And it was sort
of a dedication to her. Yes, that's right. And
I just thought that, as I said earlier, good
music resonates with people, regardless of how
it's presented or how... you know, what format
it's in or genre as it were. And, you know, the
simple fact of the matter is that, I mean, don't
tell him I told you this, but Scandal's a really
great songwriter and writes really great songs.
And I remember that song sort of came in late
in the game of the recording of the record. It
was one of the last songs he wrote for it and
one of the last songs we recorded for it. And
I remember at the time not quite being so sure
about it. Not so much that it was a ballad, but
I just didn't know until I heard the finished
product. And then I thought, oh, okay, we really
did something nice with this tune. It's got a
really nice atmospheric beginning. You know,
it went through a couple of different changes
as songs do as they're sort of being birthed.
But once I heard the finished product, I thought,
oh, okay, this is something here. Looking back,
I didn't love that it was sort of the last single
from the record. Although I guess technically
maybe it wasn't. I can't remember if we released
Send It Up as a single or not. But I know we
had talked about it, but I don't think it actually
happened. Because by then, it was difficult because
even when You're a God was released as a single,
everything you want was still at the top of the
charts. So we were sort of competing with ourselves,
which was a little bit of a difficult position
to be in. It's one of those tough problem to
have kind of things. So, I think by the time
Best I Ever Had came out, I mean, everything
you want was just everywhere. And then You're
a God had a bunch of traction. The video was
being played on VH1. It was part of a Jim Carrey
movie called Bruce Almighty as well. And so,
I don't know that the timing for Best I Ever
Had was exactly right. But you know what, man?
At the end of the day, it played on an album
that had like three hit singles on it. You can't
argue with that. Not at all. You certainly can't
complain about it. No. Some people are looking
for just that one hit single their entire life.
But after the massive commercial success of Everything
You Want, the band finished up the follow -up
record, Go, in 2002. But that album was delayed
for over a year because of the restructuring
of RCA Records at the time and finally saw release
in September of 2003. I think the album had some
fantastic singles on it, Forever, I'm Still Here,
When You Cry. Can you talk about the experience
of trying to follow up a massive hit record and
maybe the challenges that those delays presented
the band? Yeah, it's funny because I think we
all have a little bit different perspectives
on this. I feel like... The fact that Go didn't
quite do what Everything You Want did obviously
was incredibly disappointing. But at the same
time, making that record, for me, was an incredibly
joyous time. You know, we were in Southern California.
The first record had been a success. I was just
sort of, it was all music all the time for me
out in Los Angeles while we were living out there
making the record. If I wasn't working on it
during the day or in the evening, I was out going
to listen to friends play in clubs. I was spending
a probably obscene amount of money at Amoeba
Music on CDs and just listening to all kinds
of different stuff because it was such a rich
and fertile time in music still. It was still
sort of that carryover from the 90s where everything
that was on the radio was just so varied and
so wonderful. And you still didn't quite have
the... rigid format structure on radio that eventually
it became. You still had stations that would
play Mary J. Blige and Vertical Horizon. So yeah,
looking back, it was just a wonderful time. And
a lot of the music on that record came together
extremely quickly, very organically. I remember,
I think we recorded 15 or 16 tracks for what
became, I think, an 11 -track record. And I mean,
Sean and I had the bass and drums done in like
four days. You know, we pretty much did pre -production
ourselves. I think the band as a whole should
have gotten a production credit on that record
because we did do a lot of pre -production work,
arrangement of the song. A lot of that stuff
was done by us prior to entering the studio.
And having the time to do that was wonderful
as well. But you know, at the same time... The
experience might have been different for other
people. I know Keith's contributions were less
than they had been previously. I can't speak
for Keith, but I think there was maybe some pressure
to kind of come up with hits. And that's not
the kind of songwriter Keith Cain is. And Matt
came up with some gems right out of the gate.
When You Cry, Forever, Goodbye Again, which was
kind of a holdover from Everything You Want.
Although it changed up a bit from... when we
were initially working on it. But we turned that
record, and Matt was going through a divorce
at that time, so I'm sure his experience of making
that record was very different from mine. So
once we kind of wrapped it all and turned it
in, we were excited about it. But at that point,
I know the president of the label had been let
go, a wonderful man named Bob Jameson. And Clive
Davis had been hired to replace him. Clive's
not a rock and roll guy, he's a pop guy. And
then one by one, all the people that were on
the team that made Everything You Want such a
success, and by the team, I mean the team at
RCA Records, basically all lost their jobs. Wow.
So by the time that record came out, even if
it had come out in 02, I think we might have
stood a better chance if it came out when we
wanted it to come out, which was September of
02. And the record label gave us the line about
not hearing a first single, which I thought was
total BS because When You Cry Alone would have
been a killer lead -off single for that record.
Could have followed it up with Forever, you know,
some of the other tracks that are on there. But
we don't hear a lead -off single. So we want
you to go back and write a song that we could
use as a lead -off single. So we went back and
Matt came up with I'm Still Here, which... Was
a cool enough song. I don't love the way we presented
it on record. There's some sonic elements in
there that were sort of purposefully reminded
you of everything you want. And I just thought
that was like a cheap way to go. But, you know,
again, that was a team effort. And we listened
to the people that had experience getting behind
hit records. And so we thought, okay. And it
wasn't bad enough that it was like, okay, let's
not do this. I do remember suggesting at the
time, and I mean, it must have lasted all of
five minutes because I think my idea didn't go
over very well. But I remember suggesting that
we, I think I called it, let's pull a Wilco.
Do you remember Wilco's story about Yankee Hotel
Foxtrot where they finished the record and there
was turmoil at their label, so they decided not
to turn the record in? Yes, yes. And I thought,
why don't we just not turn the record in? You
know, maybe. If Clive Davis isn't interested
in our band, maybe at some point they'll let
us go and we can take this record, which we strongly
believe in and think is a really good record,
to a different label that will get behind it
and hopefully repeat the success of Everything
You Want. Well, the idea was kind of shot down.
So we kind of went with what we were given. So
by the time we recorded I'm Still Here, again,
the timeline's a little bit fuzzy, but I can
be almost certain that it was done by spring
of... And then still the record didn't come out
until September. And you could tell from the
get -go that RCA was not going to get behind
this record the way they'd gotten behind Everything
You Want. In the video process alone, basically
VH1 was saying, where's the video for I'm Still
Here? We want to play your video, you know? And
RCA was saying, well, let's see what kind of
traction it gets at radio. If we get some traction
at radio, we'll commit to a video. And they were
just not putting in the effort at radio whatsoever.
We did, but we weren't visiting as many stations
as we had to run everything you want. And I'm
sure Matt's told the story about when Go came
out. I remember we were in Chicago and we went
out to buy it because I can't speak for Sean
and Keith, but I know Matt and I had a habit
of going out. to the store to buy our record
the day it came out. Nice. Because we just thought
that was kind of a cool thing, you know? And
I still have both Go and Everything You Want
in their shrink wrap from - Nice. Bought the
day that I bought them. And we could not find
Go anywhere. I think I had to go to three different
places before I actually found a copy of Go.
And we were expecting like it would be on an
end cap somewhere or some kind of display, like
here's a hundred copies of the new Vertical Horizon
record. When I found it, I found the one that
was in the Rock V bin. Oh, wow. There was also
a little glitch on the cover of the Go album.
If you look at the cover, right in between our
logo and where it says Go, there's a little white,
it almost looks like a comma. That was a glitch.
That was something in printing. And it either
didn't get noticed. and was put out like that
or got noticed and the powers that be said, yeah,
we're not recalling all of these things. I remember
Matt saying at the time that never would have
happened with a Christina Aguilera record. She
was on the same label as we were. And he's absolutely
right. So all these little things, like you just
knew, the way we could feel that everything you
want was going to do something, we could feel
that Go was not going to do much of anything.
And this was all before we went out to start
promoting it. And that was heartbreaking. And
it made it very difficult to be out on the road
promoting a record that you knew wasn't going
to get any traction. And not only that, but being
out on the road promoting a record that at that
point for us was a year and a half old from the
time that we had conceptualized it and started
to work on it to the time that it hit the streets.
As frustrating as that was, when people talk
about Vertical Horizon, I always ask them, have
you heard the Go record? It's different for me,
my perspective on it from where I'm sitting is
always going to be different because I was in
it. But I stand behind everything we've done
and I know and I'm very proud of what the Everything
You Want record means to people because I've
heard people's stories about it. And at the end
of the day, I think Go is a better record. And
I've talked to some people that didn't even know
we did a record after Everything You Want. Wow.
I was going to say Forever is a song that holds
a very special place in my heart. I mean, I absolutely
love the tune. In 2005, you made a very difficult
decision to part ways with Vertical Horizon.
Can you talk about what led you to that? You
know, it was sort of a perfect storm of things.
The process with Go had been sort of heartbreaking.
That was the fall of 2003 into 2004. In 2003,
I'd had my first child. So that was part of the
decision -making. A lot of it came down to the
fact that Vertical Horizon, we were looking at
a 2005 of not really having much work on the
books. And I didn't want to spend a year not
working. As I said, I had had a child at that
point. We'd done okay on the road and things
like that. So I wasn't like hurting, but I wasn't,
you know, some rich rock star. That's just not
the way it works. A lot of the major revenue
that came from everything you want came in publishing
and songwriting, which is where most of the revenue
is in songwriting anyway, it's in publishing.
And that's not an income stream that we shared
at all. So... I wasn't sitting at home getting
paid if we weren't working. So I needed to do
something. And the opportunity came up to audition
for the Doobie Brothers, who have always been
one of my favorite bands since I was a kid. Now,
initially, I sort of thought that, okay, well,
we're not doing anything in 2005. If I get this
Doobie Brothers gig, I'll go on the road with
the Doobie Brothers. And then, you know, at the
end of 2005 or whatever, Vertical will... gather
and start planning what we're doing for 2006,
hopefully making another record and all that.
There were some other things going on too. We
had gotten dropped from the label. Our management
company believed in Go and wanted to reissue
the record. That was a weird thing for me. I
was not behind that initially. And then I sort
of came around as a team player and said, okay,
if this is what everybody wants, this is what
we're going to do, then let's do it. And in hindsight,
I wish I had sort of stuck to my guns and tried
to convince the guys of what not a good idea
that was. I felt like if anything else, we could
have taken a couple of the songs we truly believed
in from Go, licensed them from RCA, if we even
wanted to do that. At this point, going indie
financially would have been a great move. We
didn't really know that at the time. I mean,
the record industry landscape began to look like
that that would be a good way to go. So I was
sort of like, well, let's pick ourselves up by
our bootstraps and put this in the rearview mirror
and just go make another record. We've got a
fan base now. Maybe we can make a record that
we'll just pay for ourselves. And hopefully it's
a good enough record that maybe some label will
want to get behind it. And if we go to them with
a record that is made and paid for, we can get
them to sink some money into it to get some of
our initial investment back and then just continue
on. I know Matt was very disillusioned about
the, I guess, disappointment, as it were, of
Go. And at a point where he didn't really know
what he wanted to do next, not only as a band
member, but as an individual. So I... went and
auditioned for the Doobies and at some point,
it sort of became apparent that there may not
be a vertical horizon anymore. It looked like
that maybe we were done through various conversations
with various people in the camp. And I began
to realize what a commitment the Doobie Brothers
was going to be. It wasn't going to be just like
go on the road for a few months and then go back
to your regular gig. I'd kind of say. So, I kind
of had to make the decision to step away. And
it was incredibly difficult, incredibly difficult
because I still think that those four guys, me,
Matt, Keith, and Sean had more to say as a unit.
And for me, you know, I didn't get to do that
because I made the choice to step away and it
was tough. But it was what I had to do at the
time. And ultimately, at the end of the day,
I don't have any regrets about it. I'm incredibly
grateful for the nine years that I had in Vertical
Horizon. I mean, who gets to say that they got
to do that? And yeah, there's gold records and
platinum records and all that. But one of the
coolest things I have, which of course is in
a closet somewhere, because I'm not the guy that
has that stuff hanging up around the house. But
our management company gave us this. really great
plaque that has the Hot 100 chart from the week
that Everything You Want was number one. Oh,
that's awesome. Seeing our peers at the time,
Dave Massey's band, including the Blowfish Matchbox
20, you know, below us, seeing our heroes sting
below us on the chart was just like, wow, like
for one week in 2000, like our song was king,
you know? And eventually it was, I think somebody
said it was one of the most played songs on American
radio in the year 2000. And I still hear it.
I mean, now it's usually at the grocery store
or like Home Depot or something, you know. I
don't hear it on the radio that much anymore,
but it's wonderful. And I still get a little
performance royalty every month. Thank you, Bruce
Almighty, for playing on that because it's in
a movie and that royalty stream is a different
thing. So I've got nothing but pride. joy when
I talk about Vertical Horizon. Although at the
time in 2005, like any sort of divorce, it was
a bit difficult. I have to say, last year, I
saw Vertical Horizon for the first time since
I'd left. I saw them in Boston and really, I
hadn't stayed away. It was just a case of scheduling.
We never crossed paths. Although I'd been in
touch with the guys all this time, there was
a little bit of space. of communication between
Matt and I. And I think that was just a sort
of, like I said, the sort of divorce type kind
of thing. It was never a negative. It was just
sort of, I was doing my thing, he was doing his
thing. But I'm happy to say now that it's not
like that, has not been like that for years.
So when I saw that, I happened to be in Boston
for an event for the Zildjian Cymbal Company
and I had the night off. And sometimes when I'm
somewhere with a night off, if I feel like going
to see music, I'll... hop on pole star and see
what's going on. And I was vertical horizon city
winery. And I said, you gotta be kidding me.
You know, I'm like, this is it. This is the moment,
you know? So I texted Matt and I was like, Hey,
I think I said something like, Hey, is my credit
good for a me plus one for the city winery show
tonight? And he texted me back something like
absolute fucking loopy, you know, and I don't
know if you beat things out or not, but there
you go. And so I went down and it was wonderful.
I saw a bunch of people I hadn't seen in a long
time because Boston's sort of a local gig for
Matt. So his mom was there. His dad was there.
His brother was there. I mean, these are people
I hadn't seen in 18 years. And it was just a
really nice sort of homecoming, as it were. I
didn't play. I said, man, I'm just going to watch
you guys do your thing and enjoy it. And, you
know, I'll come back and chat with you afterwards
and all that. It was cool. It was really, really
cool. And Matt gave me a really sweet shout out
from the stage, which he didn't have to do. I
felt like Buddy Rich at a Rat Pack concert or
something, you know? Because he pointed me out
in the audience and he asked people to applaud.
And I was the guy standing up and sort of waving,
right? Like kind of parade wave to the audience.
Oh, thank you very much. And honestly, it was
a really, really sweet moment and something he
didn't have to do at all. And I thought the band
sounded phenomenal. You know, I know the guys
of the band casually from like social media and
things like that. And I'm involved in an event
that the guitar player John Wesley does a lot,
a fundraiser event for, it's a Neil Peart themed
thing, a cancer fundraiser called Bubba Bash.
So we crossed paths there as well. So it was
just a really special thing. Sorry, I kind of
rambled on with that. Not at all. It's a wonderful
story. And we're promoting this episode as...
The ultimate Doobie Brothers playlist. And we've
talked about Vertical Horizon, but you can't
get your story in the Doobie Brothers without
the Vertical Horizon aspect of it. So here you
are in the same year, 2005. You're recruited
to replace Doobie Brothers drummer Keith Knudsen
after his sad passing from pneumonia. During
your early tenure with the band, you were playing
alongside Michael Hasek, who, again, we sadly
lost in 2012. And then Tony Pia, as the Doobie
Brothers incorporated that dual drummer approach
for a very long time. Then when Tony left the
group, you became the sole drummer of the band.
Can you talk about that transition from a dual
drumming role to being the guy behind the kit?
Yeah, it's funny. A lot of people ask me about
it as if there were some big adjustments to be
made or anything. And the honest answer to that
is that there wasn't. The two drummer thing in
the Doobie Brothers was a little bit different
than the two drummer thing in, say, the Allman
Brothers or Genesis or King Crimson in that,
for the most part, we're pretty much just playing
the same groove. And then we would switch off
fills here and there. You take this fill, I'll
take this fill, just so we're not stepping on
each other. So that's kind of what the two -drummer
approach was in the Doobie Brothers. So the only
adjustment really that needed to be made when
I became the sole drummer was just to make sure
I didn't sit out on a fill where I normally used
to. So there would just be dead air, you know?
And it wasn't like that at all. And in fact...
If I'm being totally honest, with all due respect
to the history of the two drummer thing in the
Doobie Brothers, it was very freeing to just
do the gig as the sole drummer. Because, you
know, different drummers have different feels.
Some guys play a little on top, some guys play
right on, some guys play a little behind. Some
guys vary what they're doing depending on the
style of tune, the section of a tune, that kind
of thing. So, I think... I played well together,
both with Mike and with Tony. It was a little
bit of the weight off the shoulders to be doing
it by myself. And then in 2018, we added percussionist
Mark Keonis, who was actually in the Allman Brothers.
And that opened up a whole new world. Because
if you go back and listen to those Doobie Brothers
records, there's really, with the exception of
one album, There's really only a couple of tracks
on each record where you can hear two drummers
playing. That's because, in fact, on a lot of
those tracks, there's just one drummer playing.
But there's percussion on almost every single
Doobie Brothers track. So when the discussion
came back around to maybe trying to satin up
the rhythm section again, I was sort of very
vocal. with the guys about like, you don't want
to go back to two drummers. What you want to
do is you want to hire a percussionist and like
a legit percussionist. You don't want to hire
a drum set player who's looking for a gig or
somebody to shake a tambourine or whatever. You
want to get somebody that plays percussion for
a living. And I know just the guy and it was
Mark. And at the time Mark was still. He was
still in Greg Allman's solo band, but Greg hadn't
toured for a while because he had been dealing
with health issues. And when we first asked Mark
to join us, I believe it was in 2017, and he
declined. He said, I would love to. I'm honored
that you asked me, but I'm still loyal to Greg.
And even though we're not doing anything right
now, I wouldn't feel right jumping to you guys
right now. So we sort of said, okay. The tour
had been booked at that point. So I think thinking
from the guys was like, okay, well, Ed did most
of 2016. Let's just keep it as is and go out
in 2017. So we did that. And then 2018 came around
and sort of Mark called us because it had become
apparent that Greg was ill and it was sort of
terminal. So he called us and said, hey, if the
offer still stands, I'm interested. And so we
had, I think we had a corporate event set up
in Florida, which oddly enough is where Mark
lives. So we went to rehearse for this event
because it was after we'd been off for a couple
of months. So we went rehearse. We asked Mark
to come down and it was like two days of rehearsal,
I think. So they said, well, why don't you come
down, check out this rehearsal, play with us
at rehearsal, do this corporate event with us,
and then we'll take it from there. And he's been
there ever since. So over this time, the band
goes through these transitions, two drummers
to a single drummer to a drummer and a percussionist.
While in the band's world, it seems like a natural
progression to the audience having been used
to seeing two drummers on stage and that becoming
almost synonymous with the band. Was there ever
any point where the audience gave you feedback
that... maybe made you think or made the band
think or was it always whatever you guys do,
we're on board with? Well, I can't speak for
what the band may have thought because I'm very
much a sideman and I'm privy to certain conversations
and not others. I would hear from fans now and
then. I've seen fans post things on social media.
It's never negative at all. But you hit the nail
on the head and I've said this a million times
before in... different interviews and whatnot.
And I'm going to say it again, but you hit the
nail on the head. It's always, I miss seeing
two drummers. Nobody has ever said to me, I miss
hearing two drummers. So yes, I feel like the
visual aspect was definitely part of the Doobie's
DNA and all that. And on some of the songs for
sure. I mean, if you dig deep and put some headphones
on and listen to songs like 8th Avenue Shuffle.
Without You, Road Angel. There's some great two
-drummer stuff going on. But if you put your
headphones on and listen to China Grove, Long
Train Run, and listen to the music taken to the
streets where the fool believes, there's one
drummer playing. Well, we're working kind of
chronologically through your career here. And
in 2017, yourself, fellow Doobie Brothers member
John Cowan, and Keith Howland of Chicago released
an album as the band Button. Can you maybe talk
about how this funky, jammy, and I'm going to
use the word proggy project came together and
maybe shed some light on the music the three
of you made? I love that you used prog. Prog
is not a dirty word to me. Awesome. In fact,
the three of us are fans of progressive rock.
And we thought to ourselves, when we saw the
logo that my brother's involved in graphic design.
In fact, he did a Vertical Horizon record after
I left. But he came up with the button logo that's
on the front of that album. And when we saw the
logo, we thought it was really cool. We thought
to ourselves, what if we came up with a sort
of prom -y kind of cover for the album? And for
those that don't know, which is probably everybody
listening to this, the cover is of a man in a
suit walking a cat on a leash through a sort
of... garden type area. And I can't think of
much that's more prongy than that. I mean, even
the cover for Vertical Horizons Go, the original
cover of the kid outside the swing set, which
is an image my brother found as well, we thought
it was super, we're like, oh my God, this could
be a Pink Floyd record, you know? And we love
how it reflected the idea of go, sort of go do
your thing, like sort of stand outside the...
The bubble, as it were. So Button came about
in a way, in sort of a very, very organic way.
Keith Howland used to be the guitar player in
the band Chicago. And John Cowan plays bass and
sings on the Doobies with me. And John has had
his own project for years that I've played with
him on and off, which is rooted in bluegrass,
but it's kind of all over the map. So we decided
it would be fun to put together a little cover
thing. and do some sort of off -the -wall cover
tunes that not a lot of people do. We were doing
things like I'm Not in Love by 10CC, She's Gone
by Hall & Oates, and What Is and What Should
Never Be by Zeppelin instead of the usual Zeppelin
covers that you hear and play different things
like that. And we did a couple of gigs like that.
And then one day we got together and John was
just singing. on the covers thing. We had a different
bass player, a guy by the name of John Billings.
And one day we got together to play and John
couldn't make it. John Billings couldn't make
it. So Callan just played bass. And we futzed
around with a couple of older, like Peter Green
era Sleetwood Mac tunes. And I think we might've
played Run to You by Bryan Adams, just having
some fun. And we sort of got off into just kind
of jamming. as you do. And we probably jam nonstop
for, I would say close to three hours, just having
fun old school in Keith's basement, banging around,
playing music, seeing where it took you and all
that. A day or two later after the jam, I get
an MP3 from Keith and it simply said, I think
there's some tunes here. And then it had a list
of like time markers, like where to go on the
mp3 to listen and he was right there was some
cool sort of riff ideas and song ideas so the
next time we got together instead of jamming
out on cover tunes we revisited some of these
ideas and within the span of i don't know maybe
a month or two getting together uh keith was
all set up for recording and all that stuff and
before we knew it we had put tunes together Some
of the stuff on that record is directly from
the jam. Most of it is ideas that came up in
the jam that we re -recorded. Put a couple of
ideas together, like this idea at four minutes
and 33 seconds will go well with this idea at
two hours and 15 minutes. It was such a long
MP3 because we'd start jamming and Keith would
just record it and it would just go on forever.
That's generally how that came together. And
then once the tunes were sort of assembled, we
mostly Keith and John, but on a couple of the
tunes, the three of us would throw out melodies
and lyrics. Not always in the same order. Usually
melodies would just be scat singing and maybe
you'd come up with a line here and there. It
was an incredibly organic and fun way to make
a record. Probably the most fun I've ever had
making a record. Because at the time we didn't
even think it was going to be a record. We were
just putting some songs together because it was
fun. And then we thought at the end of it, listening
to some of the playbacks, it was just kind of
like, we're idiots if we don't make this available
to people. But then of course, by the time it
was done and we put it out, we used a crowdfunding
thing to put it out. And we had sort of delusions
of grandeur, like we'll put a little club tour
together and blah, blah, blah. And by the time
we got it out and... Got it together to start
making those plans. Both Chicago and Doobie Brother
plans got in the way of it. So it kind of came
out released to a void. But for people that want
to look for it, it's called Button. Apparently,
I think there's a couple of bands called Button.
It's the one with the guy in the suit walking
the cat on the leash on the cover. And it's on
all the platforms. And actually, the three of
us recently talked about putting it to vinyl.
Nice. Now, hopefully that will see the light
sometime in 2025. And for those listening, I'll
be sure to embed that album on the episode page
at myweeklymixtape .com so you can give it a
listen. So, Ed, we've talked about your role
in the band, but we haven't touched on the songs.
And you said it earlier, you've been a fan of
this band your whole life. So as a fan of the
band who turned into a member of the band, I'm
kind of. Really excited to hear your perspective
on some of these things. First off, what songs
do you consider to be essential to a Doobie Brothers
live show? Meaning the fans would be upset if
they weren't in the set list. And I have a reason
for this question, but I want to hear your answer
first. Sure. I mean, I feel like a lot of it's
obvious. Listen to the music, China Grove, Long
Trade Run, and Blackwater. With Michael, of course,
now Michael's been back since 2021 and he is
back. I mean, that's a thing. So what a fool
believes. Taking it to the streets. I think minute
by minute. A lot of fans with Michael there,
they want to hear minute by minute. Rocking down
the highway. I mean, that's a lot of, okay, we
kind of have to play these songs. I mean, that's
over half a dozen songs right there. I think
a lot of the other ones, some of the album tracks,
you could move those in and out. because they're
not ones that the casual fans can... I think
the casual fans are going to know Best of the
Doobies, basically. And we play every song from
that record, from Best of the Doobies. I think
as we should. I mean, it's one of the best -selling
albums of all time. I think it's still in the
top 10 or top 20 best -selling albums of all
time, Best of the Doobies. So we play all the
songs from that. And yeah, I think the album
tracks, for the diehard fans, I'm always making
noise about... having multiple set lists and
moving album tracks in and out. But at the same
time, I kind of stay in my lane. It's their band
and all that. And I try to avoid being seen as
the fanboy, even though they know. I mean, I
wrote a letter to Doobie Rose fan club when I
was 10 years old. That's a true story. Yeah.
And they know this. And so we tease each other
about it sometimes. So I feel like when I really
feel like I need to chime in, on something from
the creative side of things whether it's the
design of a set list or something like that i
will and when i feel like okay that's not a hill
i want to die on i'll stay away i'll stay away
from it you know so i guess my logical follow
-up to that is With 15 studio albums of material
to choose from and 36 singles over the band's
five decades, how does the band formulate a set
list that honors those hits, like you said, the
entire Best of the Doobies album, digs into some
of the deeper cuts to satisfy the diehards, and
maybe include new material like songs from the
band's latest recording, 2021's Liberty? So I
feel like they, I mean, these guys love to play.
And, you know, I think it shows when you see
the show. And I don't know if it's in their list
of questions, but it comes up a lot. Like, how
does it get boring playing the same songs over
and over again? And the answer is no, because
the audience is different. You know, no audience
is going to sit through China Grove, but every
audience is going to have a different reaction
to it. And it's going to be positive. So just
being able to see the faces, watch people react
to that makes it easier to play China Grove for
the 10 ,000th time or whatever, even longer for
those guys. As far as constructing the set list
goes, I know that there are a handful of tunes
that they just really like to play. Now I'm talking
about songs that are not the hits. Right, right.
If the Doobie Brothers decided to not play Blackwater
one night, I mean, they would be crucified. So
it's going to be in the set list. But when it
comes to some of the more album track kind of
things, I feel like a lot of times they lean
on songs that they like to play, songs that they
know fans will like, with the occasional sort
of surprise tune. And like you said, being able
to save... a couple of spots for some newer material
because I see a lot of bands of their ilk, I'm
talking about the legacy sort of classic rock
bands, they know they're not going to sell records
the way they used to. You know, they know that
the diehards will pick it up and that's going
to be that. They know that the new stuff's not
going to be on the radio. But that doesn't mean
that they don't want to play it and at least
let people know like, hey, this is out there.
So it's something totally, completely new and
fresh for them. And for me, for us, the sort
of sideguards, you know. So, yeah, I think they're
very careful about that kind of thing. And I
think every tour I've ever been on with them,
which has been 20 years now, the stuff has changed
in the middle of the year. I'm sick of that.
Let's replace it with this. Or I really would
like to add this. Or a song that they used to
like to play a lot maybe got put on the shelf
for a little while. And then six or seven years
later, they dusted it off and brought it back.
So that happens a lot too. Well, now, Ed, I'm
going to ask you to take off your drummer hat
for a second and put your fan of the band hat
on for this next question. Do you have any bucket
list songs that you'd love to play with the band
at some point? Or have you checked off all of
those boxes over the last two decades? I absolutely
have not checked off all of those boxes. Yeah.
We did a cool thing a few years back where. We
played the Toulouse Street album and the Captain
and Me album in their entirety. Yes, at the Beacon
Theater. Yeah, we filmed it. It's a DVD and all,
and we recorded it for a live album. And those
shows are the most fun I've ever had in this
band because we were doing something incredibly
unique and we were digging deep. And those records
are so good. You know, so to be able to play
like the title track from the captain and me
was just absolutely wonderful. And to be able
to play songs like white sun and snake man and
bomb all the loose street, even the two loose
street title track, which doesn't even have any
drums on it. So fun. I mean, in my opinion, the
best song Pat Simmons has ever written. So, so
much fun to have that material. be played to
an audience and I know the audience absolutely
loved it. So, I would love to do some things
like that again. I would love to play absolutely
anything that we've never played from the What
Were Once Body, Scissor and Nano Habits record,
which just happens to be my favorite Doobie Brother
record. Nice. Top to bottom, I just think it's
their best record, hands down. These things are
subjective, of course. You could go round and
round with different people and different albums
meet different people for different reasons,
whatever they were going through. at the time
that the album became important to them, all
that kind of stuff. But from a purely musical
standpoint, there's so much cool stuff going
on that record. And then there are some really
sleeper songs in that, songs that I don't think
if they've ever played live, they certainly haven't
played since the 70s. Songs like Texas Lullaby
from Stampede, 8th Avenue Shuffle from Taking
It to the Street. One of Michael McDonald's best
songs that he wrote during his time with the
Doobie Brothers is on the Minute by Minute record.
It's a song called How Do Those Fools Survive?
Great song. Cool lyric, which is kind of, it's
sort of like the idea of a God looking at humanity
and sort of throwing his hands up in the air
and saying, what are you doing? Just a really,
really cool and musically just. Ceylon, for those
people not in the know of Doobie Brothers stuff,
one of your favorite guitar solos that you've
never heard of all time is during the out chorus
of How Do The Fools Survive by Stump Baxter.
Great guitar solo. And then even some stuff in
the 80s. There's a song on the Cycles record
called Time Is Here and Gone, which I wouldn't
love to play. And I think would be such a great
song to play for a band that's been around for
50 plus years now. And there have been cool songs
on the recent records, which we've never gotten
around to, simply because how much new stuff
can you subject an audience to when you're a
classic rock band? And, you know, which makes
sense. You know, you kind of have a thing that
you need to go do when you're a band that's been
around for 50 years. So there's a good handful
of tunes. I mean, I could write a set list of
songs that we've never played in the 20 years
that I've been in this band, and it would be
a full show. Can I add one to it? I would love
to hear The Doctor from the Cycles album. To
me, that was one where I remember buying the
cassette single, getting in the car with my father
and playing it. And he just pauses for a second
and he goes, wait a minute, you like the Doobie
Brothers? And I said, yeah, the song's awesome.
He goes, oh, do I have a surprise for you? And
we went home and he broke out the vinyl. And
to me, that was like a bonding moment with my
father because. They were still producing hits
in the 80s, but for some reason, that song obviously
just got, it kind of fell through the cracks
of five decades of hits. Yeah, I mean, it was
big at the time. I remember it sort of brought
them back, as it were, because they had not been
around at that point. Cycles was what, 87? I
want to say it was 89. 89, okay. So yeah, so
they had broken up in what, 83? And four years
later, they did some reunion shows for... National
Veterans Foundation. And these shows included
like everybody that had been a member of the
Doobie Brothers, except for one guy. And they
had so much fun doing that that their producer
from the 70s, Ted Templeman, said, why don't
you put the original band back together? You
know, Michael McDonald was deep into his solo
career at that point. He said, why don't you
put the original band together? Let's make a
record. Which eventually Teddy wasn't involved
in because of scheduling and whatnot. But that's
how that came together with that record in 89.
And I remember that song being on the radio and
just being in 1989, being like, holy crap, the
Doobie Brothers have a hit on the radio. This
is kind of cool, you know? And then I think they
put another record out in, what, 91. And of course,
by then, Grunge wiped all of those bands off
the map in the industry, the changes in the industry
as well. But yeah, there's a ton of material
there. I have played The Doctor. The Doctor has
been in the set over the last 20 years. I think
it's one of those songs that should be in there
fairly regularly. But again, not my decision
to make. So it's really tough with the Doobie
Brothers. If you were to take Best of Volume
1, Best of Volume 2, or most of Best of Volume
2, and then the later, like The Doctor and stuff,
I mean, that's a whole show right there. Yeah.
That's without any album tracks, without fan
favorites, without any kind of surprises. When
we've done corporate events for an hour or 75
minutes, you're just like, holy crap, every song
we just played was a hit. So to be able to give
that variety, again, I think that lends itself
to the idea of the rotating set list. But again,
maybe we'll get to that. Maybe we won't. Who
knows? Well, earlier I had talked about Gary
Allen covering Vertical Horizons' Best I Ever
Had. But in 2014, the Doobie Brothers released
Southbound, which was a collection of songs from
throughout the band's catalog reinterpreted for
country and featuring guests and duet partners
like the Zac Brown Band, Blake Shelton, the late
Toby Keith, Brad Paisley, and Sarah Evans. And
when you hear these songs blended with that touch
of country, There's that classic rock familiarity
to them. But there's also a, you know what? These
songs work as country songs. Could you talk about
the band's thoughts on that album? And if these
collaborations maybe widened the band's already
huge fan base, at least from a country perspective?
Yeah, I mean, I don't have a strong affinity
to that record for a couple of different reasons.
One, I'm not on it. I haven't played on any of
the studio records that have come out since I've
been in the band, which doesn't bother me. I
understand that sometimes that doesn't happen
with Sidemen. It's usually a producer's call,
and it's the band's decision to either go with
what the producer says or not. And they've chosen
to go that route, which is no harm, no foul.
The Southbound record, I can honestly say I've
not even listened to it. Oh, wow. Yeah, for no
reason other than I just... It wasn't something
that I was involved in at the time. I think we
did a Crossroads episode with Luke Bryan to help
promote that record. And we may have done a couple
of TV spots where we displayed a couple of the
hits sort of as they are. However, it makes total
sense. Because one of the great things about
the Doobie Brothers is they are all over the
musical map. If you go back to those older records,
You could point to songs that would easily have
fit into country radio of the 70s, which, mind
you, was very different from what country music
is now. Yes. But a song like South City Midnight
Lady, a song like the aforementioned Texas Lullaby
from Sam Keaton, any of these songs could have
been played on country radio in the 70s. And
not because they'd have pedal steel on them or
violin, but because they'd sound like... country
songs of that era. Although you don't have somebody
singing with any kind of twang, they're acoustic
based country flavored songs. And when you get,
I mean, the initial thing with the Doobie Brothers,
I mean, you know, it was very much Tom Johnston
and Pat Simmons kind of baby. They were the two
singers, they were the two main writers and...
Tom comes from a R &B blues background. And Pat
comes from a singer -picking, almost folk acoustic
kind of background. And then you sprinkle in
the intersection of the things that they love.
Like, they both love the Bay Area band called
Moby Grape. And they both love singing. There's
a lot of vocal group approach to some of the
Moby Grape stuff. a lot of the bands in San Francisco
back at that time. And just the stuff that they
heard growing up, you know, the Everleaves, the
Byrds, you know, bands like this. So sprinkle
that with some rock and roll and a little bit
of psychedelic San Francisco stuff, and you get
the Doobie Brothers in 1972, 1973. As unique
as they come. And then, you know, four or three,
four years later, you add a blue -eyed soul singer
to that mix. And you've got a sort of band that
could play any genre. And some of the instrumental
passages, I mean, there are prog moments on Doobie
Brother Records. There are fusion moments on
Doobie Brother Records. Like, no doubt about
it. There's hard rock moments on Doobie Brother
Records. You know, you listen to a song like
Without You or Evil Woman, I mean, the riff in
Evil Woman gives Tony Iommi a run for his money,
you know? For those that don't know, Tony Iommi
is a guitar player on Black Sabbath. So, I mean,
to be able to be in a band that, and also, you
know, let me rewind a little bit. To be able
to be a young musician growing up playing along
to those records, I was playing along to all
these different genres without even knowing that
I was playing all these different genres. huge,
huge educational component to my growing up as
a musician, my growing as a musician. And do
you think that that education helped flavor what
you did in your time with Vertical Horizon? Yeah,
I think so to a degree. I think the live album
I made with Vertical Horizon is very much a combination
of everything I'd learned as a musician up until
that point, everything I had listened to, all
of that. Because I didn't have a producer standing
there saying, no, straighten out that fill or
do that. Everything you want, less so. Because
first major label record, first big time recording
studio, working with a producer type kind of
thing. Not wanting to get in the way of things.
I sort of dumbed down my playing a little bit
on that record to just kind of stay out of the
way of the tunes. With mixed results, in my opinion.
Go is all me, just rocking out. And the feel
on that record and the confidence on that record,
so much more so than everything you want from
all of us too, particularly in the rhythm section
with me and Sean, because you got to remember
with everything you want, Sean had just joined
the band and hadn't done a lot of the road work
that we had done together up until that point.
There was a bass player before him. So to circle
back to your question, yes, from where I sit
right now, I do believe that across all the recordings
I've made, you can't help but be informed by
all of those things that you picked up along
the way. Well, in 2019, you had mentioned this
earlier, Michael McDonald rejoined the Doobie
Brothers for the start of the 50th anniversary
tour, which was paused and subsequently resumed
in 2021 due to the pandemic. Is there a dynamics
change when he's a part of the fold? Versus when
you were touring without him, either from a musical
standpoint, a setlist standpoint, or just from
the way the band presents the songs to the audience.
Well, sure. Naturally, you're going to have something
different with that. I mean, it's the idea of
how different was Van Halen with Sammy Hagar
than with David Lee Roth. Right. And you could
have said that about the Doobie Brothers back
at that time, but now you've got them both. you've
got Tom Johnson, you've got Michael McDonald,
and then of course you've got Pat Simmons who's
been there through the whole thing. So you've
got all the singers. I mean, imagine if we did
get to the point where we were able to get that
Van Halen tour with both David Lee Roth and Sammy
Hagar. It would have been something else, right?
So for Doobie fans, I think it's great that they
have that. For the Doobies, it's great. There's
never been any animosity between the members
at all. So they all get along great. And I think
it's just, if you can add a strength to what
is already strong and that strength happens to
be Michael McDonald, like, I mean, you know,
it's like the Atlanta Braves pitching staff in
95. I mean, it just, it doesn't get any better
than that, you know? So it's a great dynamic.
Yeah, it does change it. No for better or no
for worse, just incredibly different. And the
simple fact of the matter is when you have all
those components, more people want to come out
and hear it. Although you always have the people
that are, you know, all the only true Doobie
Brothers with Tom Johnston or the people that
only like the Doobies with Michael. And, you
know, you can't please everybody. And the bottom
line is that at the end of the day, those people
are the minority anyway. So what are the Doobie
Brothers plans for 2025 and beyond? Well, I know
I'm going to be on the road in 2025. They have
a new record that they've been working on and
they have a tentative title, but I don't know
if that's actually going to be the title. So
I'll sit on that. But we played a song from it
during the last few shows of 2024 and it seemed
to go over pretty well. And it's one of those
things that I always wish that they would do,
which they've done in this particular song, which
is called Walk This Road. They each sing a verse.
Oh, nice. Mike sings the verse, Tommy sings the
verse, Pat sings the bridge. It's just a great
bluesy shuffle, kind of almost classical shuffle
kind of thing. And it's a really good tune, and
I'm glad we were playing it. And, you know, I
can't wait for people to hear it and experience
it. So, yeah, there'll be a new Doobie Brothers
record in 2025. I'm not quite sure when yet.
My best guess is probably summer. And we'll be
out there doing some stuff. well ed this has
been an absolute honor talking music with you
tonight look forward to catching you when the
band hits the road in 2025 and most importantly
thank you so much for joining me on my weekly
mixtape my pleasure man thank you so much for
having me this was fun And for those listening,
head over to the episode page at myweeklymixtape
.com to hear a playlist filled with some of the
best songs from throughout the Doobie Brothers'
incredible catalog of music. And remember, you
can also find My Weekly Mixtape on almost all
the social media haunts at myweeklymixtape. You
can also head to myweeklymixtape .com to check
out the full catalog of My Weekly Mixtape episodes.
And if you like what you're hearing on this show,
you can help me out by either telling a friend,
leaving the show a five -star review wherever
you're tuning in, or becoming a Patreon mixtaper
at patreon .com forward slash myweeklymixtape.
There you can find ad -free episodes of the show,
gain early access to upcoming episodes, chime
in on future topics, become a guest curator,
and so much more. That's all for this week. Thanks
again for listening, and until next time, enjoy
the tunes.