WEBVTT

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Hey, this is Ed Toth, drummer for the Doobie

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Brothers, and you're listening to My Weekly Mixtape

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with Brian Colburn. So, turn it up. Welcome to

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My Weekly Mixtape, a podcast that takes the classic

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mixtape approach to building a modern playlist.

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I'm your host, Brian Colburn. This past summer,

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you might recall the album dive episode of the

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show that spotlighted Vertical Horizon's Everything

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You Want 25th Anniversary Edition, featuring

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a sit -down with the band's Matt Scannell. Tonight,

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I'm absolutely honored to have Ed Toth on the

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show, who not only was the drummer for Vertical

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Horizon during that era of the band, but in the

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20 years since he's left Vertical Horizon, has

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been behind the kit for the legendary rock band,

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as well as Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductees,

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the Doobie Brothers. Ed, thank you so much for

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joining me on My Weekly Mixtape. It's an absolute

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pleasure to have you on the show. No, it's my

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pleasure to be here, man. Thanks for having me.

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Well, as a first -time guest, I'd like to start

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by asking you, what does the word mixtape mean

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to you? Oh, man. So I made a lot of mixtapes

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when I was in high school. And just for reference

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for anybody that might be listening, I was in

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high school from 83 to 87. which was probably

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the penultimate time or the ultimate time to

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be making mixtapes because that was kind of a

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thing. And not only did I certainly make the

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mixtape for the girl, you know, here's some songs

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you might like, but I would just make them for

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fun. In fact, I would call them, you know, various

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artists. And I think by the time I was done with

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high school, I had like 22 volumes of various

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artists' cassettes. a slew of friends that would

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insist that I make a copy for them. So I was

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kind of a DJ without being a DJ. I always thought

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that being a DJ would be fun, although for a

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lot of reasons, I just never went there at all.

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I was never a DJ when I was in college and never

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had any real sort of aspirations to be a DJ.

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And by DJ, I mean like a radio disc jockey, not

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somebody spinning tunes at a wedding or something.

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So I never went that route, but that was kind

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of my own way, I think, of being able to do that.

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And the fact that I garnered a small but fun

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following of friends who wanted to hear what

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I came up with next was pretty cool. Mixtaping,

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you're doing it right. Well, before we dive into

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the Doobie Brothers music, I'd like to start

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by talking a little bit about your time with

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Vertical Horizon as the band's massive album,

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Everything You Want, celebrated its 25th anniversary

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in 2024. Could you talk about the significance

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of that album with a quarter century of hindsight?

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Yeah, I mean, I'm amazed it's been 25 years.

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In some ways, it does feel that. It feels like

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a lifetime ago. But in other ways, it kind of

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just feels like it was yesterday. Because we

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kind of got to ride the wave of that for a long

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time. And the simple fact of the matter is that

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I still hear those songs. I still get asked about

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those records. Since it's come out on vinyl,

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I've had a couple of people pop up here and there

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looking for a signature on the record, which

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is pretty cool. I haven't signed a Vertical Horizon

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record in a long time. Having that happen over

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the past year or two has been really fun as well.

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You know, that was a really important record.

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Certainly for me, it was my first time making

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a major label record. It wasn't my first time

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in a recording studio, but it was my first time

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recording with the kind of budget that a major

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label allowed. And, you know, we didn't know

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if we would get another crack at it. we sort

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of put everything we possibly could into that

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record, including sort of finishing it, not being

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totally happy with it, going back and revisiting

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some of the tracks after the fact, and all of

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the blood and sweat and tears that went into

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not only the making of the record, but then once

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it came out, the promotion of it. And we were

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fortunate enough to be sort of at the tail end

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of what they call the sort of golden era. of

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record making where a record label, they wouldn't

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just put out your record and you had a month

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to make it or break it. I mean, these people

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put a lot of time into working the record at

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radio because they really believed in it. People

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that were working at the record label at the

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time, this would be RCA Records. And this would

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be circa 1998 till about 2002 when things started

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to really change, not only at the record label,

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but in the music industry. I mean, that record

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was released in the fall of 1999 and didn't really

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hit until the summer of 2000. You don't get that

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anymore from a record label. You're either hot

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out of the gate or they're done with you. So

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it was nice to experience that with all the people

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that were involved in that as well, which were

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real old school record label people, which was

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at a time when record label people were actually

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music fans. Now, I had talked with Matt about

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this, but you mentioned it just now, October

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19th, 1999. That's when Everything You Want was

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released to alternative radio, but it didn't

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reach number one on the Billboard US Hot 100

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until July 15th, 2000. That's nine months for

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the song to make that full ascension to number

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one. And like you said, that just doesn't happen

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anymore where a label gets behind a band for

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that extended period of time. Can you maybe talk

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about that nine -month stretch where the song

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was taking off and the band made that jump from,

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as Matt put it, slogging it out in bars to becoming

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a band with a number one billboard hit under

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their belts? Yeah, I mean, that's another thing,

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too, that era of bands of just, I mean, when

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I joined this band, it was campgrounds. It was

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people's floors in a sleeping bag. And when I

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left the band, we could at least stay in a Marriott

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and have our own room, which was something at

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the time. It very much was a process. You talked

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about, well, you alluded to sort of different

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radio formats. I mean, when the album first came

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out, the record label released the single We

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Are to alternative rock radio, which is where

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they thought they might be able to get a foothold.

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And it did okay there, but it didn't make a ton

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of noise. And then when they decided they were

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going to put everything you want out, they decided,

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let's release this across sort of all formats.

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Adult contemporary, pop, like the whole thing.

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And that's when it really started to take off.

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You know, it also helped that, I mean, we visited

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two, three, sometimes four radio stations a day.

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Wow. To shake hands. kiss babies as it were,

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you know, play acoustic, talk about the album,

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cut liners for the radio station, the whole thing.

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And this would be after a night of doing a gig

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that didn't wrap until midnight and then having

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to do an eight -hour drive or so to the next

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city. There was a lot of sort of, you know, what

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do they call it, GI showers, just sort of dumping

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a bottle of water on your head in the parking

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lot of the radio station out of the van. making

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yourself look decent to go in and do an interview

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for the morning show. So there was a lot of work

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and effort put into that. And we took what we

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did very seriously. I remember as the song was

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getting added to radio stations, I remember taking

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a few days, one week, where we hand wrote letters

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to program directors, thanking them for adding

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the song. Wow. And I think that kind of thing

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went a long way with the radio stations. To the

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point that when we released the next single,

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You're a God, it was almost a no -brainer for

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any station that played everything you want to

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play You're a God. Because we were team players.

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And, you know, we were nice guys. We were ourselves.

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We didn't put on any kind of front as a rock

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and roll band or anything like that. We were

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just four guys that anybody would have known

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in their lives who just happened to be in a band

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that was making music that resonated with people.

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And one of the other hits from the album, Best

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I Ever Had, Gray Sky Morning, went on to become

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a top 10 country hit for Gary Allen. What were

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your thoughts when you first heard your band's

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song reimagined as a country tune? You know,

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it's funny because I think that that either was

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happening or started to happen as I was exiting

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the band. So I didn't hear it for the longest

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time and then I heard it. Or maybe it was right

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before. I can't quite remember the timeline.

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It was so long ago. But I do remember hearing

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it and the sort of story behind it with Gary

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Allen, who had lost his wife. And it was sort

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of a dedication to her. Yes, that's right. And

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I just thought that, as I said earlier, good

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music resonates with people, regardless of how

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it's presented or how... you know, what format

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it's in or genre as it were. And, you know, the

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simple fact of the matter is that, I mean, don't

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tell him I told you this, but Scandal's a really

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great songwriter and writes really great songs.

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And I remember that song sort of came in late

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in the game of the recording of the record. It

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was one of the last songs he wrote for it and

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one of the last songs we recorded for it. And

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I remember at the time not quite being so sure

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about it. Not so much that it was a ballad, but

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I just didn't know until I heard the finished

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product. And then I thought, oh, okay, we really

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did something nice with this tune. It's got a

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really nice atmospheric beginning. You know,

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it went through a couple of different changes

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as songs do as they're sort of being birthed.

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But once I heard the finished product, I thought,

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oh, okay, this is something here. Looking back,

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I didn't love that it was sort of the last single

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from the record. Although I guess technically

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maybe it wasn't. I can't remember if we released

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Send It Up as a single or not. But I know we

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had talked about it, but I don't think it actually

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happened. Because by then, it was difficult because

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even when You're a God was released as a single,

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everything you want was still at the top of the

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charts. So we were sort of competing with ourselves,

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which was a little bit of a difficult position

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to be in. It's one of those tough problem to

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have kind of things. So, I think by the time

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Best I Ever Had came out, I mean, everything

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you want was just everywhere. And then You're

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a God had a bunch of traction. The video was

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being played on VH1. It was part of a Jim Carrey

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movie called Bruce Almighty as well. And so,

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I don't know that the timing for Best I Ever

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Had was exactly right. But you know what, man?

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At the end of the day, it played on an album

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that had like three hit singles on it. You can't

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argue with that. Not at all. You certainly can't

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complain about it. No. Some people are looking

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for just that one hit single their entire life.

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But after the massive commercial success of Everything

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You Want, the band finished up the follow -up

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record, Go, in 2002. But that album was delayed

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for over a year because of the restructuring

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of RCA Records at the time and finally saw release

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in September of 2003. I think the album had some

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fantastic singles on it, Forever, I'm Still Here,

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When You Cry. Can you talk about the experience

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of trying to follow up a massive hit record and

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maybe the challenges that those delays presented

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the band? Yeah, it's funny because I think we

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all have a little bit different perspectives

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on this. I feel like... The fact that Go didn't

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quite do what Everything You Want did obviously

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was incredibly disappointing. But at the same

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time, making that record, for me, was an incredibly

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joyous time. You know, we were in Southern California.

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The first record had been a success. I was just

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sort of, it was all music all the time for me

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out in Los Angeles while we were living out there

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making the record. If I wasn't working on it

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during the day or in the evening, I was out going

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to listen to friends play in clubs. I was spending

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a probably obscene amount of money at Amoeba

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Music on CDs and just listening to all kinds

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of different stuff because it was such a rich

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and fertile time in music still. It was still

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sort of that carryover from the 90s where everything

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that was on the radio was just so varied and

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so wonderful. And you still didn't quite have

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the... rigid format structure on radio that eventually

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it became. You still had stations that would

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play Mary J. Blige and Vertical Horizon. So yeah,

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looking back, it was just a wonderful time. And

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a lot of the music on that record came together

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extremely quickly, very organically. I remember,

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I think we recorded 15 or 16 tracks for what

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became, I think, an 11 -track record. And I mean,

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Sean and I had the bass and drums done in like

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four days. You know, we pretty much did pre -production

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ourselves. I think the band as a whole should

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have gotten a production credit on that record

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because we did do a lot of pre -production work,

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arrangement of the song. A lot of that stuff

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was done by us prior to entering the studio.

00:14:07.340 --> 00:14:10.600
And having the time to do that was wonderful

00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:13.740
as well. But you know, at the same time... The

00:14:13.740 --> 00:14:15.419
experience might have been different for other

00:14:15.419 --> 00:14:17.580
people. I know Keith's contributions were less

00:14:17.580 --> 00:14:20.879
than they had been previously. I can't speak

00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:24.159
for Keith, but I think there was maybe some pressure

00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:27.299
to kind of come up with hits. And that's not

00:14:27.299 --> 00:14:31.539
the kind of songwriter Keith Cain is. And Matt

00:14:31.539 --> 00:14:33.600
came up with some gems right out of the gate.

00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:37.659
When You Cry, Forever, Goodbye Again, which was

00:14:37.659 --> 00:14:40.200
kind of a holdover from Everything You Want.

00:14:40.659 --> 00:14:43.179
Although it changed up a bit from... when we

00:14:43.179 --> 00:14:46.940
were initially working on it. But we turned that

00:14:46.940 --> 00:14:49.000
record, and Matt was going through a divorce

00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:51.220
at that time, so I'm sure his experience of making

00:14:51.220 --> 00:14:54.059
that record was very different from mine. So

00:14:54.059 --> 00:14:57.440
once we kind of wrapped it all and turned it

00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:01.360
in, we were excited about it. But at that point,

00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:04.259
I know the president of the label had been let

00:15:04.259 --> 00:15:09.100
go, a wonderful man named Bob Jameson. And Clive

00:15:09.100 --> 00:15:13.129
Davis had been hired to replace him. Clive's

00:15:13.129 --> 00:15:15.929
not a rock and roll guy, he's a pop guy. And

00:15:15.929 --> 00:15:19.190
then one by one, all the people that were on

00:15:19.190 --> 00:15:21.730
the team that made Everything You Want such a

00:15:21.730 --> 00:15:24.389
success, and by the team, I mean the team at

00:15:24.389 --> 00:15:27.710
RCA Records, basically all lost their jobs. Wow.

00:15:27.789 --> 00:15:30.529
So by the time that record came out, even if

00:15:30.529 --> 00:15:33.169
it had come out in 02, I think we might have

00:15:33.169 --> 00:15:37.070
stood a better chance if it came out when we

00:15:37.070 --> 00:15:39.190
wanted it to come out, which was September of

00:15:39.190 --> 00:15:44.379
02. And the record label gave us the line about

00:15:44.379 --> 00:15:47.720
not hearing a first single, which I thought was

00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:51.159
total BS because When You Cry Alone would have

00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:52.960
been a killer lead -off single for that record.

00:15:53.179 --> 00:15:55.960
Could have followed it up with Forever, you know,

00:15:55.960 --> 00:15:57.820
some of the other tracks that are on there. But

00:15:57.820 --> 00:16:00.500
we don't hear a lead -off single. So we want

00:16:00.500 --> 00:16:02.460
you to go back and write a song that we could

00:16:02.460 --> 00:16:05.720
use as a lead -off single. So we went back and

00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:09.279
Matt came up with I'm Still Here, which... Was

00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:13.220
a cool enough song. I don't love the way we presented

00:16:13.220 --> 00:16:16.179
it on record. There's some sonic elements in

00:16:16.179 --> 00:16:19.320
there that were sort of purposefully reminded

00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:21.600
you of everything you want. And I just thought

00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:24.820
that was like a cheap way to go. But, you know,

00:16:24.899 --> 00:16:27.559
again, that was a team effort. And we listened

00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:31.320
to the people that had experience getting behind

00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:33.659
hit records. And so we thought, okay. And it

00:16:33.659 --> 00:16:35.580
wasn't bad enough that it was like, okay, let's

00:16:35.580 --> 00:16:38.919
not do this. I do remember suggesting at the

00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:41.500
time, and I mean, it must have lasted all of

00:16:41.500 --> 00:16:43.679
five minutes because I think my idea didn't go

00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:47.100
over very well. But I remember suggesting that

00:16:47.100 --> 00:16:49.879
we, I think I called it, let's pull a Wilco.

00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:53.259
Do you remember Wilco's story about Yankee Hotel

00:16:53.259 --> 00:16:55.539
Foxtrot where they finished the record and there

00:16:55.539 --> 00:16:58.200
was turmoil at their label, so they decided not

00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:00.759
to turn the record in? Yes, yes. And I thought,

00:17:00.860 --> 00:17:03.080
why don't we just not turn the record in? You

00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:06.289
know, maybe. If Clive Davis isn't interested

00:17:06.289 --> 00:17:08.589
in our band, maybe at some point they'll let

00:17:08.589 --> 00:17:10.890
us go and we can take this record, which we strongly

00:17:10.890 --> 00:17:12.609
believe in and think is a really good record,

00:17:12.769 --> 00:17:14.950
to a different label that will get behind it

00:17:14.950 --> 00:17:17.710
and hopefully repeat the success of Everything

00:17:17.710 --> 00:17:20.670
You Want. Well, the idea was kind of shot down.

00:17:20.950 --> 00:17:23.890
So we kind of went with what we were given. So

00:17:23.890 --> 00:17:26.710
by the time we recorded I'm Still Here, again,

00:17:26.809 --> 00:17:29.390
the timeline's a little bit fuzzy, but I can

00:17:29.390 --> 00:17:32.309
be almost certain that it was done by spring

00:17:32.309 --> 00:17:36.859
of... And then still the record didn't come out

00:17:36.859 --> 00:17:39.259
until September. And you could tell from the

00:17:39.259 --> 00:17:42.400
get -go that RCA was not going to get behind

00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:44.660
this record the way they'd gotten behind Everything

00:17:44.660 --> 00:17:48.319
You Want. In the video process alone, basically

00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:52.579
VH1 was saying, where's the video for I'm Still

00:17:52.579 --> 00:17:57.559
Here? We want to play your video, you know? And

00:17:57.559 --> 00:17:59.759
RCA was saying, well, let's see what kind of

00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:03.029
traction it gets at radio. If we get some traction

00:18:03.029 --> 00:18:07.529
at radio, we'll commit to a video. And they were

00:18:07.529 --> 00:18:10.450
just not putting in the effort at radio whatsoever.

00:18:11.509 --> 00:18:15.250
We did, but we weren't visiting as many stations

00:18:15.250 --> 00:18:18.569
as we had to run everything you want. And I'm

00:18:18.569 --> 00:18:21.490
sure Matt's told the story about when Go came

00:18:21.490 --> 00:18:25.950
out. I remember we were in Chicago and we went

00:18:25.950 --> 00:18:28.609
out to buy it because I can't speak for Sean

00:18:28.609 --> 00:18:30.369
and Keith, but I know Matt and I had a habit

00:18:30.369 --> 00:18:32.980
of going out. to the store to buy our record

00:18:32.980 --> 00:18:35.339
the day it came out. Nice. Because we just thought

00:18:35.339 --> 00:18:37.619
that was kind of a cool thing, you know? And

00:18:37.619 --> 00:18:39.740
I still have both Go and Everything You Want

00:18:39.740 --> 00:18:43.400
in their shrink wrap from - Nice. Bought the

00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:47.700
day that I bought them. And we could not find

00:18:47.700 --> 00:18:50.880
Go anywhere. I think I had to go to three different

00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:53.279
places before I actually found a copy of Go.

00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:55.819
And we were expecting like it would be on an

00:18:55.819 --> 00:18:58.480
end cap somewhere or some kind of display, like

00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:00.200
here's a hundred copies of the new Vertical Horizon

00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:04.369
record. When I found it, I found the one that

00:19:04.369 --> 00:19:08.910
was in the Rock V bin. Oh, wow. There was also

00:19:08.910 --> 00:19:12.589
a little glitch on the cover of the Go album.

00:19:12.710 --> 00:19:17.109
If you look at the cover, right in between our

00:19:17.109 --> 00:19:21.109
logo and where it says Go, there's a little white,

00:19:21.250 --> 00:19:24.190
it almost looks like a comma. That was a glitch.

00:19:24.369 --> 00:19:27.730
That was something in printing. And it either

00:19:27.730 --> 00:19:31.130
didn't get noticed. and was put out like that

00:19:31.130 --> 00:19:35.130
or got noticed and the powers that be said, yeah,

00:19:35.190 --> 00:19:37.869
we're not recalling all of these things. I remember

00:19:37.869 --> 00:19:40.329
Matt saying at the time that never would have

00:19:40.329 --> 00:19:43.230
happened with a Christina Aguilera record. She

00:19:43.230 --> 00:19:46.130
was on the same label as we were. And he's absolutely

00:19:46.130 --> 00:19:50.109
right. So all these little things, like you just

00:19:50.109 --> 00:19:52.990
knew, the way we could feel that everything you

00:19:52.990 --> 00:19:55.549
want was going to do something, we could feel

00:19:55.549 --> 00:19:58.230
that Go was not going to do much of anything.

00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:01.680
And this was all before we went out to start

00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:04.900
promoting it. And that was heartbreaking. And

00:20:04.900 --> 00:20:07.779
it made it very difficult to be out on the road

00:20:07.779 --> 00:20:09.619
promoting a record that you knew wasn't going

00:20:09.619 --> 00:20:13.180
to get any traction. And not only that, but being

00:20:13.180 --> 00:20:15.740
out on the road promoting a record that at that

00:20:15.740 --> 00:20:19.579
point for us was a year and a half old from the

00:20:19.579 --> 00:20:22.140
time that we had conceptualized it and started

00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:24.539
to work on it to the time that it hit the streets.

00:20:26.009 --> 00:20:28.750
As frustrating as that was, when people talk

00:20:28.750 --> 00:20:32.410
about Vertical Horizon, I always ask them, have

00:20:32.410 --> 00:20:35.349
you heard the Go record? It's different for me,

00:20:35.369 --> 00:20:39.390
my perspective on it from where I'm sitting is

00:20:39.390 --> 00:20:41.789
always going to be different because I was in

00:20:41.789 --> 00:20:45.309
it. But I stand behind everything we've done

00:20:45.309 --> 00:20:50.150
and I know and I'm very proud of what the Everything

00:20:50.150 --> 00:20:52.829
You Want record means to people because I've

00:20:52.829 --> 00:20:56.000
heard people's stories about it. And at the end

00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:58.900
of the day, I think Go is a better record. And

00:20:58.900 --> 00:21:00.839
I've talked to some people that didn't even know

00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:03.539
we did a record after Everything You Want. Wow.

00:21:04.099 --> 00:21:06.660
I was going to say Forever is a song that holds

00:21:06.660 --> 00:21:08.779
a very special place in my heart. I mean, I absolutely

00:21:08.779 --> 00:21:13.140
love the tune. In 2005, you made a very difficult

00:21:13.140 --> 00:21:15.460
decision to part ways with Vertical Horizon.

00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:18.559
Can you talk about what led you to that? You

00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:20.819
know, it was sort of a perfect storm of things.

00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:24.299
The process with Go had been sort of heartbreaking.

00:21:25.180 --> 00:21:30.920
That was the fall of 2003 into 2004. In 2003,

00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:34.619
I'd had my first child. So that was part of the

00:21:34.619 --> 00:21:37.299
decision -making. A lot of it came down to the

00:21:37.299 --> 00:21:39.460
fact that Vertical Horizon, we were looking at

00:21:39.460 --> 00:21:45.119
a 2005 of not really having much work on the

00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:50.400
books. And I didn't want to spend a year not

00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:53.440
working. As I said, I had had a child at that

00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:57.019
point. We'd done okay on the road and things

00:21:57.019 --> 00:22:00.980
like that. So I wasn't like hurting, but I wasn't,

00:22:00.980 --> 00:22:04.420
you know, some rich rock star. That's just not

00:22:04.420 --> 00:22:08.759
the way it works. A lot of the major revenue

00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:11.859
that came from everything you want came in publishing

00:22:11.859 --> 00:22:14.839
and songwriting, which is where most of the revenue

00:22:14.839 --> 00:22:17.240
is in songwriting anyway, it's in publishing.

00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:21.420
And that's not an income stream that we shared

00:22:21.420 --> 00:22:25.170
at all. So... I wasn't sitting at home getting

00:22:25.170 --> 00:22:29.549
paid if we weren't working. So I needed to do

00:22:29.549 --> 00:22:32.589
something. And the opportunity came up to audition

00:22:32.589 --> 00:22:34.970
for the Doobie Brothers, who have always been

00:22:34.970 --> 00:22:37.690
one of my favorite bands since I was a kid. Now,

00:22:37.710 --> 00:22:40.630
initially, I sort of thought that, okay, well,

00:22:40.710 --> 00:22:44.450
we're not doing anything in 2005. If I get this

00:22:44.450 --> 00:22:46.410
Doobie Brothers gig, I'll go on the road with

00:22:46.410 --> 00:22:49.369
the Doobie Brothers. And then, you know, at the

00:22:49.369 --> 00:22:53.599
end of 2005 or whatever, Vertical will... gather

00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:57.019
and start planning what we're doing for 2006,

00:22:57.259 --> 00:23:00.059
hopefully making another record and all that.

00:23:00.740 --> 00:23:02.559
There were some other things going on too. We

00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:05.099
had gotten dropped from the label. Our management

00:23:05.099 --> 00:23:08.279
company believed in Go and wanted to reissue

00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:11.140
the record. That was a weird thing for me. I

00:23:11.140 --> 00:23:14.900
was not behind that initially. And then I sort

00:23:14.900 --> 00:23:17.960
of came around as a team player and said, okay,

00:23:17.980 --> 00:23:20.059
if this is what everybody wants, this is what

00:23:20.059 --> 00:23:22.809
we're going to do, then let's do it. And in hindsight,

00:23:22.990 --> 00:23:26.470
I wish I had sort of stuck to my guns and tried

00:23:26.470 --> 00:23:29.750
to convince the guys of what not a good idea

00:23:29.750 --> 00:23:33.230
that was. I felt like if anything else, we could

00:23:33.230 --> 00:23:35.289
have taken a couple of the songs we truly believed

00:23:35.289 --> 00:23:39.369
in from Go, licensed them from RCA, if we even

00:23:39.369 --> 00:23:42.890
wanted to do that. At this point, going indie

00:23:42.890 --> 00:23:47.519
financially would have been a great move. We

00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:50.099
didn't really know that at the time. I mean,

00:23:50.180 --> 00:23:53.160
the record industry landscape began to look like

00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:57.720
that that would be a good way to go. So I was

00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:00.319
sort of like, well, let's pick ourselves up by

00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:02.500
our bootstraps and put this in the rearview mirror

00:24:02.500 --> 00:24:04.960
and just go make another record. We've got a

00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:08.720
fan base now. Maybe we can make a record that

00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:12.420
we'll just pay for ourselves. And hopefully it's

00:24:12.420 --> 00:24:14.559
a good enough record that maybe some label will

00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:17.089
want to get behind it. And if we go to them with

00:24:17.089 --> 00:24:21.589
a record that is made and paid for, we can get

00:24:21.589 --> 00:24:24.089
them to sink some money into it to get some of

00:24:24.089 --> 00:24:26.650
our initial investment back and then just continue

00:24:26.650 --> 00:24:30.789
on. I know Matt was very disillusioned about

00:24:30.789 --> 00:24:33.950
the, I guess, disappointment, as it were, of

00:24:33.950 --> 00:24:37.049
Go. And at a point where he didn't really know

00:24:37.049 --> 00:24:39.890
what he wanted to do next, not only as a band

00:24:39.890 --> 00:24:44.049
member, but as an individual. So I... went and

00:24:44.049 --> 00:24:46.450
auditioned for the Doobies and at some point,

00:24:46.509 --> 00:24:51.049
it sort of became apparent that there may not

00:24:51.049 --> 00:24:53.529
be a vertical horizon anymore. It looked like

00:24:53.529 --> 00:24:57.170
that maybe we were done through various conversations

00:24:57.170 --> 00:25:00.970
with various people in the camp. And I began

00:25:00.970 --> 00:25:03.029
to realize what a commitment the Doobie Brothers

00:25:03.029 --> 00:25:05.549
was going to be. It wasn't going to be just like

00:25:05.549 --> 00:25:07.349
go on the road for a few months and then go back

00:25:07.349 --> 00:25:12.390
to your regular gig. I'd kind of say. So, I kind

00:25:12.390 --> 00:25:16.130
of had to make the decision to step away. And

00:25:16.130 --> 00:25:18.609
it was incredibly difficult, incredibly difficult

00:25:18.609 --> 00:25:23.890
because I still think that those four guys, me,

00:25:24.089 --> 00:25:27.990
Matt, Keith, and Sean had more to say as a unit.

00:25:28.970 --> 00:25:32.670
And for me, you know, I didn't get to do that

00:25:32.670 --> 00:25:36.430
because I made the choice to step away and it

00:25:36.430 --> 00:25:38.769
was tough. But it was what I had to do at the

00:25:38.769 --> 00:25:41.190
time. And ultimately, at the end of the day,

00:25:41.309 --> 00:25:45.130
I don't have any regrets about it. I'm incredibly

00:25:45.130 --> 00:25:48.089
grateful for the nine years that I had in Vertical

00:25:48.089 --> 00:25:50.769
Horizon. I mean, who gets to say that they got

00:25:50.769 --> 00:25:53.789
to do that? And yeah, there's gold records and

00:25:53.789 --> 00:25:56.329
platinum records and all that. But one of the

00:25:56.329 --> 00:25:59.250
coolest things I have, which of course is in

00:25:59.250 --> 00:26:01.609
a closet somewhere, because I'm not the guy that

00:26:01.609 --> 00:26:04.769
has that stuff hanging up around the house. But

00:26:04.769 --> 00:26:07.730
our management company gave us this. really great

00:26:07.730 --> 00:26:11.049
plaque that has the Hot 100 chart from the week

00:26:11.049 --> 00:26:13.369
that Everything You Want was number one. Oh,

00:26:13.390 --> 00:26:18.670
that's awesome. Seeing our peers at the time,

00:26:19.230 --> 00:26:21.289
Dave Massey's band, including the Blowfish Matchbox

00:26:21.289 --> 00:26:25.829
20, you know, below us, seeing our heroes sting

00:26:25.829 --> 00:26:30.329
below us on the chart was just like, wow, like

00:26:30.329 --> 00:26:34.569
for one week in 2000, like our song was king,

00:26:34.809 --> 00:26:37.900
you know? And eventually it was, I think somebody

00:26:37.900 --> 00:26:39.740
said it was one of the most played songs on American

00:26:39.740 --> 00:26:43.079
radio in the year 2000. And I still hear it.

00:26:43.140 --> 00:26:44.559
I mean, now it's usually at the grocery store

00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:47.279
or like Home Depot or something, you know. I

00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:48.619
don't hear it on the radio that much anymore,

00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:51.799
but it's wonderful. And I still get a little

00:26:51.799 --> 00:26:54.480
performance royalty every month. Thank you, Bruce

00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:59.019
Almighty, for playing on that because it's in

00:26:59.019 --> 00:27:00.960
a movie and that royalty stream is a different

00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:07.829
thing. So I've got nothing but pride. joy when

00:27:07.829 --> 00:27:11.369
I talk about Vertical Horizon. Although at the

00:27:11.369 --> 00:27:14.450
time in 2005, like any sort of divorce, it was

00:27:14.450 --> 00:27:17.589
a bit difficult. I have to say, last year, I

00:27:17.589 --> 00:27:19.890
saw Vertical Horizon for the first time since

00:27:19.890 --> 00:27:25.009
I'd left. I saw them in Boston and really, I

00:27:25.009 --> 00:27:27.369
hadn't stayed away. It was just a case of scheduling.

00:27:27.769 --> 00:27:30.329
We never crossed paths. Although I'd been in

00:27:30.329 --> 00:27:33.089
touch with the guys all this time, there was

00:27:33.089 --> 00:27:35.779
a little bit of space. of communication between

00:27:35.779 --> 00:27:38.039
Matt and I. And I think that was just a sort

00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:42.140
of, like I said, the sort of divorce type kind

00:27:42.140 --> 00:27:44.359
of thing. It was never a negative. It was just

00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:46.819
sort of, I was doing my thing, he was doing his

00:27:46.819 --> 00:27:49.319
thing. But I'm happy to say now that it's not

00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:51.099
like that, has not been like that for years.

00:27:51.259 --> 00:27:54.299
So when I saw that, I happened to be in Boston

00:27:54.299 --> 00:27:56.880
for an event for the Zildjian Cymbal Company

00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:00.059
and I had the night off. And sometimes when I'm

00:28:00.059 --> 00:28:01.579
somewhere with a night off, if I feel like going

00:28:01.579 --> 00:28:03.799
to see music, I'll... hop on pole star and see

00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:05.859
what's going on. And I was vertical horizon city

00:28:05.859 --> 00:28:07.779
winery. And I said, you gotta be kidding me.

00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:10.359
You know, I'm like, this is it. This is the moment,

00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:12.480
you know? So I texted Matt and I was like, Hey,

00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:14.720
I think I said something like, Hey, is my credit

00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:17.279
good for a me plus one for the city winery show

00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:20.920
tonight? And he texted me back something like

00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:23.920
absolute fucking loopy, you know, and I don't

00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:25.839
know if you beat things out or not, but there

00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:28.740
you go. And so I went down and it was wonderful.

00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:30.960
I saw a bunch of people I hadn't seen in a long

00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:33.660
time because Boston's sort of a local gig for

00:28:33.660 --> 00:28:35.779
Matt. So his mom was there. His dad was there.

00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:38.720
His brother was there. I mean, these are people

00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:41.960
I hadn't seen in 18 years. And it was just a

00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:44.299
really nice sort of homecoming, as it were. I

00:28:44.299 --> 00:28:47.859
didn't play. I said, man, I'm just going to watch

00:28:47.859 --> 00:28:51.619
you guys do your thing and enjoy it. And, you

00:28:51.619 --> 00:28:53.839
know, I'll come back and chat with you afterwards

00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:57.789
and all that. It was cool. It was really, really

00:28:57.789 --> 00:29:01.289
cool. And Matt gave me a really sweet shout out

00:29:01.289 --> 00:29:03.910
from the stage, which he didn't have to do. I

00:29:03.910 --> 00:29:06.309
felt like Buddy Rich at a Rat Pack concert or

00:29:06.309 --> 00:29:08.470
something, you know? Because he pointed me out

00:29:08.470 --> 00:29:11.150
in the audience and he asked people to applaud.

00:29:11.349 --> 00:29:14.009
And I was the guy standing up and sort of waving,

00:29:14.210 --> 00:29:17.130
right? Like kind of parade wave to the audience.

00:29:17.269 --> 00:29:20.730
Oh, thank you very much. And honestly, it was

00:29:20.730 --> 00:29:22.450
a really, really sweet moment and something he

00:29:22.450 --> 00:29:25.170
didn't have to do at all. And I thought the band

00:29:25.170 --> 00:29:27.710
sounded phenomenal. You know, I know the guys

00:29:27.710 --> 00:29:30.250
of the band casually from like social media and

00:29:30.250 --> 00:29:33.130
things like that. And I'm involved in an event

00:29:33.130 --> 00:29:35.150
that the guitar player John Wesley does a lot,

00:29:35.210 --> 00:29:37.789
a fundraiser event for, it's a Neil Peart themed

00:29:37.789 --> 00:29:40.750
thing, a cancer fundraiser called Bubba Bash.

00:29:41.150 --> 00:29:43.569
So we crossed paths there as well. So it was

00:29:43.569 --> 00:29:45.569
just a really special thing. Sorry, I kind of

00:29:45.569 --> 00:29:47.609
rambled on with that. Not at all. It's a wonderful

00:29:47.609 --> 00:29:50.930
story. And we're promoting this episode as...

00:29:51.230 --> 00:29:53.789
The ultimate Doobie Brothers playlist. And we've

00:29:53.789 --> 00:29:56.390
talked about Vertical Horizon, but you can't

00:29:56.390 --> 00:29:59.450
get your story in the Doobie Brothers without

00:29:59.450 --> 00:30:02.829
the Vertical Horizon aspect of it. So here you

00:30:02.829 --> 00:30:06.529
are in the same year, 2005. You're recruited

00:30:06.529 --> 00:30:09.529
to replace Doobie Brothers drummer Keith Knudsen

00:30:09.529 --> 00:30:13.910
after his sad passing from pneumonia. During

00:30:13.910 --> 00:30:16.589
your early tenure with the band, you were playing

00:30:16.589 --> 00:30:19.369
alongside Michael Hasek, who, again, we sadly

00:30:19.369 --> 00:30:23.789
lost in 2012. And then Tony Pia, as the Doobie

00:30:23.789 --> 00:30:26.410
Brothers incorporated that dual drummer approach

00:30:26.410 --> 00:30:30.710
for a very long time. Then when Tony left the

00:30:30.710 --> 00:30:33.509
group, you became the sole drummer of the band.

00:30:33.869 --> 00:30:37.650
Can you talk about that transition from a dual

00:30:37.650 --> 00:30:41.910
drumming role to being the guy behind the kit?

00:30:43.220 --> 00:30:45.460
Yeah, it's funny. A lot of people ask me about

00:30:45.460 --> 00:30:48.960
it as if there were some big adjustments to be

00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:51.559
made or anything. And the honest answer to that

00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:53.900
is that there wasn't. The two drummer thing in

00:30:53.900 --> 00:30:56.359
the Doobie Brothers was a little bit different

00:30:56.359 --> 00:30:58.759
than the two drummer thing in, say, the Allman

00:30:58.759 --> 00:31:02.740
Brothers or Genesis or King Crimson in that,

00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:05.819
for the most part, we're pretty much just playing

00:31:05.819 --> 00:31:09.559
the same groove. And then we would switch off

00:31:09.559 --> 00:31:11.920
fills here and there. You take this fill, I'll

00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:13.980
take this fill, just so we're not stepping on

00:31:13.980 --> 00:31:17.200
each other. So that's kind of what the two -drummer

00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:18.920
approach was in the Doobie Brothers. So the only

00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:20.819
adjustment really that needed to be made when

00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:24.220
I became the sole drummer was just to make sure

00:31:24.220 --> 00:31:27.019
I didn't sit out on a fill where I normally used

00:31:27.019 --> 00:31:29.880
to. So there would just be dead air, you know?

00:31:30.180 --> 00:31:33.160
And it wasn't like that at all. And in fact...

00:31:33.470 --> 00:31:35.970
If I'm being totally honest, with all due respect

00:31:35.970 --> 00:31:38.170
to the history of the two drummer thing in the

00:31:38.170 --> 00:31:41.750
Doobie Brothers, it was very freeing to just

00:31:41.750 --> 00:31:45.549
do the gig as the sole drummer. Because, you

00:31:45.549 --> 00:31:47.109
know, different drummers have different feels.

00:31:47.849 --> 00:31:50.029
Some guys play a little on top, some guys play

00:31:50.029 --> 00:31:52.210
right on, some guys play a little behind. Some

00:31:52.210 --> 00:31:54.829
guys vary what they're doing depending on the

00:31:54.829 --> 00:31:58.150
style of tune, the section of a tune, that kind

00:31:58.150 --> 00:32:02.279
of thing. So, I think... I played well together,

00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:06.960
both with Mike and with Tony. It was a little

00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:09.700
bit of the weight off the shoulders to be doing

00:32:09.700 --> 00:32:13.380
it by myself. And then in 2018, we added percussionist

00:32:13.380 --> 00:32:16.079
Mark Keonis, who was actually in the Allman Brothers.

00:32:16.859 --> 00:32:19.940
And that opened up a whole new world. Because

00:32:19.940 --> 00:32:23.000
if you go back and listen to those Doobie Brothers

00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:26.880
records, there's really, with the exception of

00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:30.210
one album, There's really only a couple of tracks

00:32:30.210 --> 00:32:33.390
on each record where you can hear two drummers

00:32:33.390 --> 00:32:36.890
playing. That's because, in fact, on a lot of

00:32:36.890 --> 00:32:38.930
those tracks, there's just one drummer playing.

00:32:39.670 --> 00:32:43.329
But there's percussion on almost every single

00:32:43.329 --> 00:32:46.789
Doobie Brothers track. So when the discussion

00:32:46.789 --> 00:32:51.250
came back around to maybe trying to satin up

00:32:51.250 --> 00:32:56.009
the rhythm section again, I was sort of very

00:32:56.009 --> 00:33:00.319
vocal. with the guys about like, you don't want

00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:03.160
to go back to two drummers. What you want to

00:33:03.160 --> 00:33:06.099
do is you want to hire a percussionist and like

00:33:06.099 --> 00:33:08.140
a legit percussionist. You don't want to hire

00:33:08.140 --> 00:33:11.259
a drum set player who's looking for a gig or

00:33:11.259 --> 00:33:13.859
somebody to shake a tambourine or whatever. You

00:33:13.859 --> 00:33:15.640
want to get somebody that plays percussion for

00:33:15.640 --> 00:33:19.039
a living. And I know just the guy and it was

00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:22.970
Mark. And at the time Mark was still. He was

00:33:22.970 --> 00:33:26.349
still in Greg Allman's solo band, but Greg hadn't

00:33:26.349 --> 00:33:28.289
toured for a while because he had been dealing

00:33:28.289 --> 00:33:31.390
with health issues. And when we first asked Mark

00:33:31.390 --> 00:33:35.490
to join us, I believe it was in 2017, and he

00:33:35.490 --> 00:33:38.609
declined. He said, I would love to. I'm honored

00:33:38.609 --> 00:33:41.430
that you asked me, but I'm still loyal to Greg.

00:33:41.490 --> 00:33:43.150
And even though we're not doing anything right

00:33:43.150 --> 00:33:46.690
now, I wouldn't feel right jumping to you guys

00:33:46.690 --> 00:33:51.559
right now. So we sort of said, okay. The tour

00:33:51.559 --> 00:33:53.859
had been booked at that point. So I think thinking

00:33:53.859 --> 00:33:57.119
from the guys was like, okay, well, Ed did most

00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:00.720
of 2016. Let's just keep it as is and go out

00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:04.519
in 2017. So we did that. And then 2018 came around

00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:07.700
and sort of Mark called us because it had become

00:34:07.700 --> 00:34:11.800
apparent that Greg was ill and it was sort of

00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:14.159
terminal. So he called us and said, hey, if the

00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:17.139
offer still stands, I'm interested. And so we

00:34:17.139 --> 00:34:18.840
had, I think we had a corporate event set up

00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:21.239
in Florida, which oddly enough is where Mark

00:34:21.239 --> 00:34:25.659
lives. So we went to rehearse for this event

00:34:25.659 --> 00:34:28.599
because it was after we'd been off for a couple

00:34:28.599 --> 00:34:31.320
of months. So we went rehearse. We asked Mark

00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:35.340
to come down and it was like two days of rehearsal,

00:34:35.480 --> 00:34:37.940
I think. So they said, well, why don't you come

00:34:37.940 --> 00:34:39.619
down, check out this rehearsal, play with us

00:34:39.619 --> 00:34:41.699
at rehearsal, do this corporate event with us,

00:34:41.719 --> 00:34:43.480
and then we'll take it from there. And he's been

00:34:43.480 --> 00:34:46.690
there ever since. So over this time, the band

00:34:46.690 --> 00:34:48.829
goes through these transitions, two drummers

00:34:48.829 --> 00:34:51.170
to a single drummer to a drummer and a percussionist.

00:34:51.170 --> 00:34:55.309
While in the band's world, it seems like a natural

00:34:55.309 --> 00:34:58.349
progression to the audience having been used

00:34:58.349 --> 00:35:01.829
to seeing two drummers on stage and that becoming

00:35:01.829 --> 00:35:04.650
almost synonymous with the band. Was there ever

00:35:04.650 --> 00:35:07.050
any point where the audience gave you feedback

00:35:07.050 --> 00:35:10.760
that... maybe made you think or made the band

00:35:10.760 --> 00:35:13.599
think or was it always whatever you guys do,

00:35:13.659 --> 00:35:16.599
we're on board with? Well, I can't speak for

00:35:16.599 --> 00:35:19.420
what the band may have thought because I'm very

00:35:19.420 --> 00:35:22.019
much a sideman and I'm privy to certain conversations

00:35:22.019 --> 00:35:25.000
and not others. I would hear from fans now and

00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:28.880
then. I've seen fans post things on social media.

00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:32.239
It's never negative at all. But you hit the nail

00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:35.159
on the head and I've said this a million times

00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:38.010
before in... different interviews and whatnot.

00:35:38.289 --> 00:35:41.190
And I'm going to say it again, but you hit the

00:35:41.190 --> 00:35:45.409
nail on the head. It's always, I miss seeing

00:35:45.409 --> 00:35:50.170
two drummers. Nobody has ever said to me, I miss

00:35:50.170 --> 00:35:53.789
hearing two drummers. So yes, I feel like the

00:35:53.789 --> 00:35:56.409
visual aspect was definitely part of the Doobie's

00:35:56.409 --> 00:36:00.110
DNA and all that. And on some of the songs for

00:36:00.110 --> 00:36:02.349
sure. I mean, if you dig deep and put some headphones

00:36:02.349 --> 00:36:04.929
on and listen to songs like 8th Avenue Shuffle.

00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:09.840
Without You, Road Angel. There's some great two

00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:12.800
-drummer stuff going on. But if you put your

00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:14.639
headphones on and listen to China Grove, Long

00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:16.679
Train Run, and listen to the music taken to the

00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:18.860
streets where the fool believes, there's one

00:36:18.860 --> 00:36:21.619
drummer playing. Well, we're working kind of

00:36:21.619 --> 00:36:24.300
chronologically through your career here. And

00:36:24.300 --> 00:36:28.000
in 2017, yourself, fellow Doobie Brothers member

00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:31.840
John Cowan, and Keith Howland of Chicago released

00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:35.579
an album as the band Button. Can you maybe talk

00:36:35.579 --> 00:36:39.000
about how this funky, jammy, and I'm going to

00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:42.019
use the word proggy project came together and

00:36:42.019 --> 00:36:43.980
maybe shed some light on the music the three

00:36:43.980 --> 00:36:47.420
of you made? I love that you used prog. Prog

00:36:47.420 --> 00:36:51.099
is not a dirty word to me. Awesome. In fact,

00:36:51.380 --> 00:36:53.719
the three of us are fans of progressive rock.

00:36:54.420 --> 00:36:57.820
And we thought to ourselves, when we saw the

00:36:57.820 --> 00:37:01.000
logo that my brother's involved in graphic design.

00:37:01.710 --> 00:37:03.889
In fact, he did a Vertical Horizon record after

00:37:03.889 --> 00:37:08.190
I left. But he came up with the button logo that's

00:37:08.190 --> 00:37:11.329
on the front of that album. And when we saw the

00:37:11.329 --> 00:37:13.230
logo, we thought it was really cool. We thought

00:37:13.230 --> 00:37:15.150
to ourselves, what if we came up with a sort

00:37:15.150 --> 00:37:19.050
of prom -y kind of cover for the album? And for

00:37:19.050 --> 00:37:21.329
those that don't know, which is probably everybody

00:37:21.329 --> 00:37:25.389
listening to this, the cover is of a man in a

00:37:25.389 --> 00:37:29.449
suit walking a cat on a leash through a sort

00:37:29.449 --> 00:37:34.480
of... garden type area. And I can't think of

00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:38.079
much that's more prongy than that. I mean, even

00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:40.219
the cover for Vertical Horizons Go, the original

00:37:40.219 --> 00:37:43.099
cover of the kid outside the swing set, which

00:37:43.099 --> 00:37:46.159
is an image my brother found as well, we thought

00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:47.820
it was super, we're like, oh my God, this could

00:37:47.820 --> 00:37:50.760
be a Pink Floyd record, you know? And we love

00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:55.480
how it reflected the idea of go, sort of go do

00:37:55.480 --> 00:37:58.659
your thing, like sort of stand outside the...

00:37:58.889 --> 00:38:01.650
The bubble, as it were. So Button came about

00:38:01.650 --> 00:38:05.269
in a way, in sort of a very, very organic way.

00:38:05.789 --> 00:38:08.050
Keith Howland used to be the guitar player in

00:38:08.050 --> 00:38:11.610
the band Chicago. And John Cowan plays bass and

00:38:11.610 --> 00:38:13.909
sings on the Doobies with me. And John has had

00:38:13.909 --> 00:38:17.010
his own project for years that I've played with

00:38:17.010 --> 00:38:19.849
him on and off, which is rooted in bluegrass,

00:38:19.929 --> 00:38:23.250
but it's kind of all over the map. So we decided

00:38:23.250 --> 00:38:25.230
it would be fun to put together a little cover

00:38:25.230 --> 00:38:28.099
thing. and do some sort of off -the -wall cover

00:38:28.099 --> 00:38:32.340
tunes that not a lot of people do. We were doing

00:38:32.340 --> 00:38:36.099
things like I'm Not in Love by 10CC, She's Gone

00:38:36.099 --> 00:38:38.900
by Hall & Oates, and What Is and What Should

00:38:38.900 --> 00:38:42.619
Never Be by Zeppelin instead of the usual Zeppelin

00:38:42.619 --> 00:38:45.980
covers that you hear and play different things

00:38:45.980 --> 00:38:49.659
like that. And we did a couple of gigs like that.

00:38:50.260 --> 00:38:54.460
And then one day we got together and John was

00:38:54.460 --> 00:38:57.869
just singing. on the covers thing. We had a different

00:38:57.869 --> 00:39:00.110
bass player, a guy by the name of John Billings.

00:39:00.949 --> 00:39:03.630
And one day we got together to play and John

00:39:03.630 --> 00:39:05.690
couldn't make it. John Billings couldn't make

00:39:05.690 --> 00:39:11.010
it. So Callan just played bass. And we futzed

00:39:11.010 --> 00:39:13.150
around with a couple of older, like Peter Green

00:39:13.150 --> 00:39:17.210
era Sleetwood Mac tunes. And I think we might've

00:39:17.210 --> 00:39:20.150
played Run to You by Bryan Adams, just having

00:39:20.150 --> 00:39:24.409
some fun. And we sort of got off into just kind

00:39:24.409 --> 00:39:29.809
of jamming. as you do. And we probably jam nonstop

00:39:29.809 --> 00:39:34.010
for, I would say close to three hours, just having

00:39:34.010 --> 00:39:37.829
fun old school in Keith's basement, banging around,

00:39:37.969 --> 00:39:40.309
playing music, seeing where it took you and all

00:39:40.309 --> 00:39:44.230
that. A day or two later after the jam, I get

00:39:44.230 --> 00:39:48.389
an MP3 from Keith and it simply said, I think

00:39:48.389 --> 00:39:50.869
there's some tunes here. And then it had a list

00:39:50.869 --> 00:39:54.650
of like time markers, like where to go on the

00:39:54.650 --> 00:39:57.730
mp3 to listen and he was right there was some

00:39:57.730 --> 00:40:00.949
cool sort of riff ideas and song ideas so the

00:40:00.949 --> 00:40:04.349
next time we got together instead of jamming

00:40:04.349 --> 00:40:06.590
out on cover tunes we revisited some of these

00:40:06.590 --> 00:40:11.949
ideas and within the span of i don't know maybe

00:40:11.949 --> 00:40:15.829
a month or two getting together uh keith was

00:40:15.829 --> 00:40:18.030
all set up for recording and all that stuff and

00:40:18.030 --> 00:40:23.139
before we knew it we had put tunes together Some

00:40:23.139 --> 00:40:25.960
of the stuff on that record is directly from

00:40:25.960 --> 00:40:30.260
the jam. Most of it is ideas that came up in

00:40:30.260 --> 00:40:33.739
the jam that we re -recorded. Put a couple of

00:40:33.739 --> 00:40:36.659
ideas together, like this idea at four minutes

00:40:36.659 --> 00:40:40.639
and 33 seconds will go well with this idea at

00:40:40.639 --> 00:40:45.679
two hours and 15 minutes. It was such a long

00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:47.840
MP3 because we'd start jamming and Keith would

00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:49.679
just record it and it would just go on forever.

00:40:51.219 --> 00:40:53.219
That's generally how that came together. And

00:40:53.219 --> 00:40:56.280
then once the tunes were sort of assembled, we

00:40:56.280 --> 00:40:59.239
mostly Keith and John, but on a couple of the

00:40:59.239 --> 00:41:01.800
tunes, the three of us would throw out melodies

00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:05.239
and lyrics. Not always in the same order. Usually

00:41:05.239 --> 00:41:08.579
melodies would just be scat singing and maybe

00:41:08.579 --> 00:41:10.900
you'd come up with a line here and there. It

00:41:10.900 --> 00:41:14.579
was an incredibly organic and fun way to make

00:41:14.579 --> 00:41:16.400
a record. Probably the most fun I've ever had

00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:18.860
making a record. Because at the time we didn't

00:41:18.860 --> 00:41:20.440
even think it was going to be a record. We were

00:41:20.440 --> 00:41:22.260
just putting some songs together because it was

00:41:22.260 --> 00:41:25.139
fun. And then we thought at the end of it, listening

00:41:25.139 --> 00:41:27.000
to some of the playbacks, it was just kind of

00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:29.059
like, we're idiots if we don't make this available

00:41:29.059 --> 00:41:31.639
to people. But then of course, by the time it

00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:34.039
was done and we put it out, we used a crowdfunding

00:41:34.039 --> 00:41:38.099
thing to put it out. And we had sort of delusions

00:41:38.099 --> 00:41:40.880
of grandeur, like we'll put a little club tour

00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:43.519
together and blah, blah, blah. And by the time

00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:47.440
we got it out and... Got it together to start

00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:50.840
making those plans. Both Chicago and Doobie Brother

00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:54.619
plans got in the way of it. So it kind of came

00:41:54.619 --> 00:41:58.019
out released to a void. But for people that want

00:41:58.019 --> 00:42:00.519
to look for it, it's called Button. Apparently,

00:42:00.619 --> 00:42:02.420
I think there's a couple of bands called Button.

00:42:02.539 --> 00:42:04.739
It's the one with the guy in the suit walking

00:42:04.739 --> 00:42:07.980
the cat on the leash on the cover. And it's on

00:42:07.980 --> 00:42:11.280
all the platforms. And actually, the three of

00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:14.260
us recently talked about putting it to vinyl.

00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:17.619
Nice. Now, hopefully that will see the light

00:42:17.619 --> 00:42:21.360
sometime in 2025. And for those listening, I'll

00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:24.480
be sure to embed that album on the episode page

00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:27.079
at myweeklymixtape .com so you can give it a

00:42:27.079 --> 00:42:30.059
listen. So, Ed, we've talked about your role

00:42:30.059 --> 00:42:32.579
in the band, but we haven't touched on the songs.

00:42:32.699 --> 00:42:34.900
And you said it earlier, you've been a fan of

00:42:34.900 --> 00:42:37.699
this band your whole life. So as a fan of the

00:42:37.699 --> 00:42:41.619
band who turned into a member of the band, I'm

00:42:41.619 --> 00:42:43.949
kind of. Really excited to hear your perspective

00:42:43.949 --> 00:42:48.010
on some of these things. First off, what songs

00:42:48.010 --> 00:42:52.110
do you consider to be essential to a Doobie Brothers

00:42:52.110 --> 00:42:55.510
live show? Meaning the fans would be upset if

00:42:55.510 --> 00:42:58.090
they weren't in the set list. And I have a reason

00:42:58.090 --> 00:43:00.170
for this question, but I want to hear your answer

00:43:00.170 --> 00:43:03.349
first. Sure. I mean, I feel like a lot of it's

00:43:03.349 --> 00:43:05.550
obvious. Listen to the music, China Grove, Long

00:43:05.550 --> 00:43:08.469
Trade Run, and Blackwater. With Michael, of course,

00:43:08.489 --> 00:43:10.949
now Michael's been back since 2021 and he is

00:43:10.949 --> 00:43:14.150
back. I mean, that's a thing. So what a fool

00:43:14.150 --> 00:43:17.469
believes. Taking it to the streets. I think minute

00:43:17.469 --> 00:43:20.690
by minute. A lot of fans with Michael there,

00:43:20.750 --> 00:43:23.150
they want to hear minute by minute. Rocking down

00:43:23.150 --> 00:43:26.869
the highway. I mean, that's a lot of, okay, we

00:43:26.869 --> 00:43:29.130
kind of have to play these songs. I mean, that's

00:43:29.130 --> 00:43:32.409
over half a dozen songs right there. I think

00:43:32.409 --> 00:43:34.289
a lot of the other ones, some of the album tracks,

00:43:34.530 --> 00:43:37.989
you could move those in and out. because they're

00:43:37.989 --> 00:43:39.769
not ones that the casual fans can... I think

00:43:39.769 --> 00:43:41.469
the casual fans are going to know Best of the

00:43:41.469 --> 00:43:44.909
Doobies, basically. And we play every song from

00:43:44.909 --> 00:43:47.650
that record, from Best of the Doobies. I think

00:43:47.650 --> 00:43:49.469
as we should. I mean, it's one of the best -selling

00:43:49.469 --> 00:43:52.170
albums of all time. I think it's still in the

00:43:52.170 --> 00:43:54.969
top 10 or top 20 best -selling albums of all

00:43:54.969 --> 00:43:57.349
time, Best of the Doobies. So we play all the

00:43:57.349 --> 00:44:01.050
songs from that. And yeah, I think the album

00:44:01.050 --> 00:44:05.150
tracks, for the diehard fans, I'm always making

00:44:05.150 --> 00:44:07.829
noise about... having multiple set lists and

00:44:07.829 --> 00:44:10.610
moving album tracks in and out. But at the same

00:44:10.610 --> 00:44:15.070
time, I kind of stay in my lane. It's their band

00:44:15.070 --> 00:44:18.130
and all that. And I try to avoid being seen as

00:44:18.130 --> 00:44:21.730
the fanboy, even though they know. I mean, I

00:44:21.730 --> 00:44:23.269
wrote a letter to Doobie Rose fan club when I

00:44:23.269 --> 00:44:25.869
was 10 years old. That's a true story. Yeah.

00:44:26.170 --> 00:44:29.489
And they know this. And so we tease each other

00:44:29.489 --> 00:44:33.469
about it sometimes. So I feel like when I really

00:44:33.469 --> 00:44:36.059
feel like I need to chime in, on something from

00:44:36.059 --> 00:44:38.820
the creative side of things whether it's the

00:44:38.820 --> 00:44:41.780
design of a set list or something like that i

00:44:41.780 --> 00:44:45.559
will and when i feel like okay that's not a hill

00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:48.699
i want to die on i'll stay away i'll stay away

00:44:48.699 --> 00:44:52.139
from it you know so i guess my logical follow

00:44:52.139 --> 00:44:56.429
-up to that is With 15 studio albums of material

00:44:56.429 --> 00:45:00.369
to choose from and 36 singles over the band's

00:45:00.369 --> 00:45:04.769
five decades, how does the band formulate a set

00:45:04.769 --> 00:45:06.849
list that honors those hits, like you said, the

00:45:06.849 --> 00:45:10.170
entire Best of the Doobies album, digs into some

00:45:10.170 --> 00:45:13.329
of the deeper cuts to satisfy the diehards, and

00:45:13.329 --> 00:45:16.090
maybe include new material like songs from the

00:45:16.090 --> 00:45:20.460
band's latest recording, 2021's Liberty? So I

00:45:20.460 --> 00:45:23.539
feel like they, I mean, these guys love to play.

00:45:24.139 --> 00:45:26.320
And, you know, I think it shows when you see

00:45:26.320 --> 00:45:30.059
the show. And I don't know if it's in their list

00:45:30.059 --> 00:45:31.980
of questions, but it comes up a lot. Like, how

00:45:31.980 --> 00:45:34.340
does it get boring playing the same songs over

00:45:34.340 --> 00:45:36.880
and over again? And the answer is no, because

00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:40.400
the audience is different. You know, no audience

00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:43.559
is going to sit through China Grove, but every

00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:45.739
audience is going to have a different reaction

00:45:45.739 --> 00:45:48.860
to it. And it's going to be positive. So just

00:45:48.860 --> 00:45:53.940
being able to see the faces, watch people react

00:45:53.940 --> 00:45:58.340
to that makes it easier to play China Grove for

00:45:58.340 --> 00:46:02.579
the 10 ,000th time or whatever, even longer for

00:46:02.579 --> 00:46:05.179
those guys. As far as constructing the set list

00:46:05.179 --> 00:46:08.059
goes, I know that there are a handful of tunes

00:46:08.059 --> 00:46:10.920
that they just really like to play. Now I'm talking

00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:13.460
about songs that are not the hits. Right, right.

00:46:13.739 --> 00:46:16.780
If the Doobie Brothers decided to not play Blackwater

00:46:16.780 --> 00:46:20.840
one night, I mean, they would be crucified. So

00:46:20.840 --> 00:46:24.280
it's going to be in the set list. But when it

00:46:24.280 --> 00:46:26.260
comes to some of the more album track kind of

00:46:26.260 --> 00:46:29.699
things, I feel like a lot of times they lean

00:46:29.699 --> 00:46:33.039
on songs that they like to play, songs that they

00:46:33.039 --> 00:46:36.960
know fans will like, with the occasional sort

00:46:36.960 --> 00:46:41.119
of surprise tune. And like you said, being able

00:46:41.119 --> 00:46:44.510
to save... a couple of spots for some newer material

00:46:44.510 --> 00:46:51.530
because I see a lot of bands of their ilk, I'm

00:46:51.530 --> 00:46:54.269
talking about the legacy sort of classic rock

00:46:54.269 --> 00:46:57.550
bands, they know they're not going to sell records

00:46:57.550 --> 00:47:00.409
the way they used to. You know, they know that

00:47:00.409 --> 00:47:02.690
the diehards will pick it up and that's going

00:47:02.690 --> 00:47:05.030
to be that. They know that the new stuff's not

00:47:05.030 --> 00:47:08.099
going to be on the radio. But that doesn't mean

00:47:08.099 --> 00:47:09.719
that they don't want to play it and at least

00:47:09.719 --> 00:47:12.159
let people know like, hey, this is out there.

00:47:12.199 --> 00:47:14.380
So it's something totally, completely new and

00:47:14.380 --> 00:47:19.400
fresh for them. And for me, for us, the sort

00:47:19.400 --> 00:47:22.519
of sideguards, you know. So, yeah, I think they're

00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:26.079
very careful about that kind of thing. And I

00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:28.340
think every tour I've ever been on with them,

00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:31.440
which has been 20 years now, the stuff has changed

00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:34.239
in the middle of the year. I'm sick of that.

00:47:34.280 --> 00:47:37.289
Let's replace it with this. Or I really would

00:47:37.289 --> 00:47:39.750
like to add this. Or a song that they used to

00:47:39.750 --> 00:47:42.530
like to play a lot maybe got put on the shelf

00:47:42.530 --> 00:47:45.250
for a little while. And then six or seven years

00:47:45.250 --> 00:47:47.550
later, they dusted it off and brought it back.

00:47:48.170 --> 00:47:51.809
So that happens a lot too. Well, now, Ed, I'm

00:47:51.809 --> 00:47:54.150
going to ask you to take off your drummer hat

00:47:54.150 --> 00:47:57.210
for a second and put your fan of the band hat

00:47:57.210 --> 00:48:00.829
on for this next question. Do you have any bucket

00:48:00.829 --> 00:48:03.889
list songs that you'd love to play with the band

00:48:03.889 --> 00:48:06.889
at some point? Or have you checked off all of

00:48:06.889 --> 00:48:10.130
those boxes over the last two decades? I absolutely

00:48:10.130 --> 00:48:13.329
have not checked off all of those boxes. Yeah.

00:48:13.969 --> 00:48:18.550
We did a cool thing a few years back where. We

00:48:18.550 --> 00:48:20.670
played the Toulouse Street album and the Captain

00:48:20.670 --> 00:48:23.329
and Me album in their entirety. Yes, at the Beacon

00:48:23.329 --> 00:48:26.989
Theater. Yeah, we filmed it. It's a DVD and all,

00:48:27.070 --> 00:48:30.369
and we recorded it for a live album. And those

00:48:30.369 --> 00:48:33.349
shows are the most fun I've ever had in this

00:48:33.349 --> 00:48:37.170
band because we were doing something incredibly

00:48:37.170 --> 00:48:41.449
unique and we were digging deep. And those records

00:48:41.449 --> 00:48:45.280
are so good. You know, so to be able to play

00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:47.639
like the title track from the captain and me

00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:51.719
was just absolutely wonderful. And to be able

00:48:51.719 --> 00:48:56.480
to play songs like white sun and snake man and

00:48:56.480 --> 00:48:58.800
bomb all the loose street, even the two loose

00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:00.400
street title track, which doesn't even have any

00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:04.820
drums on it. So fun. I mean, in my opinion, the

00:49:04.820 --> 00:49:08.039
best song Pat Simmons has ever written. So, so

00:49:08.039 --> 00:49:11.059
much fun to have that material. be played to

00:49:11.059 --> 00:49:13.139
an audience and I know the audience absolutely

00:49:13.139 --> 00:49:15.679
loved it. So, I would love to do some things

00:49:15.679 --> 00:49:18.400
like that again. I would love to play absolutely

00:49:18.400 --> 00:49:21.300
anything that we've never played from the What

00:49:21.300 --> 00:49:23.280
Were Once Body, Scissor and Nano Habits record,

00:49:23.500 --> 00:49:26.079
which just happens to be my favorite Doobie Brother

00:49:26.079 --> 00:49:29.219
record. Nice. Top to bottom, I just think it's

00:49:29.219 --> 00:49:31.800
their best record, hands down. These things are

00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:34.199
subjective, of course. You could go round and

00:49:34.199 --> 00:49:36.900
round with different people and different albums

00:49:36.900 --> 00:49:38.659
meet different people for different reasons,

00:49:38.760 --> 00:49:40.920
whatever they were going through. at the time

00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:42.820
that the album became important to them, all

00:49:42.820 --> 00:49:44.980
that kind of stuff. But from a purely musical

00:49:44.980 --> 00:49:47.400
standpoint, there's so much cool stuff going

00:49:47.400 --> 00:49:50.659
on that record. And then there are some really

00:49:50.659 --> 00:49:55.119
sleeper songs in that, songs that I don't think

00:49:55.119 --> 00:49:57.679
if they've ever played live, they certainly haven't

00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:01.659
played since the 70s. Songs like Texas Lullaby

00:50:01.659 --> 00:50:05.639
from Stampede, 8th Avenue Shuffle from Taking

00:50:05.639 --> 00:50:09.030
It to the Street. One of Michael McDonald's best

00:50:09.030 --> 00:50:10.809
songs that he wrote during his time with the

00:50:10.809 --> 00:50:12.909
Doobie Brothers is on the Minute by Minute record.

00:50:13.010 --> 00:50:15.590
It's a song called How Do Those Fools Survive?

00:50:16.150 --> 00:50:21.690
Great song. Cool lyric, which is kind of, it's

00:50:21.690 --> 00:50:25.469
sort of like the idea of a God looking at humanity

00:50:25.469 --> 00:50:28.110
and sort of throwing his hands up in the air

00:50:28.110 --> 00:50:32.650
and saying, what are you doing? Just a really,

00:50:32.730 --> 00:50:36.579
really cool and musically just. Ceylon, for those

00:50:36.579 --> 00:50:38.119
people not in the know of Doobie Brothers stuff,

00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:40.039
one of your favorite guitar solos that you've

00:50:40.039 --> 00:50:42.900
never heard of all time is during the out chorus

00:50:42.900 --> 00:50:45.980
of How Do The Fools Survive by Stump Baxter.

00:50:46.079 --> 00:50:49.360
Great guitar solo. And then even some stuff in

00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:51.539
the 80s. There's a song on the Cycles record

00:50:51.539 --> 00:50:54.320
called Time Is Here and Gone, which I wouldn't

00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:57.039
love to play. And I think would be such a great

00:50:57.039 --> 00:50:59.760
song to play for a band that's been around for

00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:04.030
50 plus years now. And there have been cool songs

00:51:04.030 --> 00:51:05.909
on the recent records, which we've never gotten

00:51:05.909 --> 00:51:08.570
around to, simply because how much new stuff

00:51:08.570 --> 00:51:11.110
can you subject an audience to when you're a

00:51:11.110 --> 00:51:14.050
classic rock band? And, you know, which makes

00:51:14.050 --> 00:51:16.449
sense. You know, you kind of have a thing that

00:51:16.449 --> 00:51:18.710
you need to go do when you're a band that's been

00:51:18.710 --> 00:51:22.989
around for 50 years. So there's a good handful

00:51:22.989 --> 00:51:25.869
of tunes. I mean, I could write a set list of

00:51:25.869 --> 00:51:28.230
songs that we've never played in the 20 years

00:51:28.230 --> 00:51:30.690
that I've been in this band, and it would be

00:51:30.690 --> 00:51:33.769
a full show. Can I add one to it? I would love

00:51:33.769 --> 00:51:36.409
to hear The Doctor from the Cycles album. To

00:51:36.409 --> 00:51:39.369
me, that was one where I remember buying the

00:51:39.369 --> 00:51:42.389
cassette single, getting in the car with my father

00:51:42.389 --> 00:51:44.530
and playing it. And he just pauses for a second

00:51:44.530 --> 00:51:47.090
and he goes, wait a minute, you like the Doobie

00:51:47.090 --> 00:51:49.230
Brothers? And I said, yeah, the song's awesome.

00:51:49.289 --> 00:51:51.889
He goes, oh, do I have a surprise for you? And

00:51:51.889 --> 00:51:53.869
we went home and he broke out the vinyl. And

00:51:53.869 --> 00:51:56.690
to me, that was like a bonding moment with my

00:51:56.690 --> 00:51:59.369
father because. They were still producing hits

00:51:59.369 --> 00:52:02.170
in the 80s, but for some reason, that song obviously

00:52:02.170 --> 00:52:04.630
just got, it kind of fell through the cracks

00:52:04.630 --> 00:52:08.730
of five decades of hits. Yeah, I mean, it was

00:52:08.730 --> 00:52:11.210
big at the time. I remember it sort of brought

00:52:11.210 --> 00:52:13.449
them back, as it were, because they had not been

00:52:13.449 --> 00:52:16.829
around at that point. Cycles was what, 87? I

00:52:16.829 --> 00:52:19.869
want to say it was 89. 89, okay. So yeah, so

00:52:19.869 --> 00:52:24.849
they had broken up in what, 83? And four years

00:52:24.849 --> 00:52:28.159
later, they did some reunion shows for... National

00:52:28.159 --> 00:52:31.300
Veterans Foundation. And these shows included

00:52:31.300 --> 00:52:34.059
like everybody that had been a member of the

00:52:34.059 --> 00:52:37.980
Doobie Brothers, except for one guy. And they

00:52:37.980 --> 00:52:41.059
had so much fun doing that that their producer

00:52:41.059 --> 00:52:43.219
from the 70s, Ted Templeman, said, why don't

00:52:43.219 --> 00:52:45.320
you put the original band back together? You

00:52:45.320 --> 00:52:47.519
know, Michael McDonald was deep into his solo

00:52:47.519 --> 00:52:49.519
career at that point. He said, why don't you

00:52:49.519 --> 00:52:51.039
put the original band together? Let's make a

00:52:51.039 --> 00:52:54.420
record. Which eventually Teddy wasn't involved

00:52:54.420 --> 00:52:57.889
in because of scheduling and whatnot. But that's

00:52:57.889 --> 00:53:00.170
how that came together with that record in 89.

00:53:00.309 --> 00:53:02.389
And I remember that song being on the radio and

00:53:02.389 --> 00:53:05.250
just being in 1989, being like, holy crap, the

00:53:05.250 --> 00:53:06.809
Doobie Brothers have a hit on the radio. This

00:53:06.809 --> 00:53:09.369
is kind of cool, you know? And then I think they

00:53:09.369 --> 00:53:11.909
put another record out in, what, 91. And of course,

00:53:11.909 --> 00:53:15.789
by then, Grunge wiped all of those bands off

00:53:15.789 --> 00:53:18.730
the map in the industry, the changes in the industry

00:53:18.730 --> 00:53:21.130
as well. But yeah, there's a ton of material

00:53:21.130 --> 00:53:23.409
there. I have played The Doctor. The Doctor has

00:53:23.409 --> 00:53:26.949
been in the set over the last 20 years. I think

00:53:26.949 --> 00:53:29.070
it's one of those songs that should be in there

00:53:29.070 --> 00:53:32.530
fairly regularly. But again, not my decision

00:53:32.530 --> 00:53:35.570
to make. So it's really tough with the Doobie

00:53:35.570 --> 00:53:37.250
Brothers. If you were to take Best of Volume

00:53:37.250 --> 00:53:41.070
1, Best of Volume 2, or most of Best of Volume

00:53:41.070 --> 00:53:44.289
2, and then the later, like The Doctor and stuff,

00:53:44.449 --> 00:53:46.289
I mean, that's a whole show right there. Yeah.

00:53:46.409 --> 00:53:48.610
That's without any album tracks, without fan

00:53:48.610 --> 00:53:51.929
favorites, without any kind of surprises. When

00:53:51.929 --> 00:53:54.650
we've done corporate events for an hour or 75

00:53:54.650 --> 00:53:57.570
minutes, you're just like, holy crap, every song

00:53:57.570 --> 00:54:00.489
we just played was a hit. So to be able to give

00:54:00.489 --> 00:54:03.769
that variety, again, I think that lends itself

00:54:03.769 --> 00:54:07.369
to the idea of the rotating set list. But again,

00:54:07.510 --> 00:54:10.889
maybe we'll get to that. Maybe we won't. Who

00:54:10.889 --> 00:54:14.110
knows? Well, earlier I had talked about Gary

00:54:14.110 --> 00:54:16.730
Allen covering Vertical Horizons' Best I Ever

00:54:16.730 --> 00:54:19.909
Had. But in 2014, the Doobie Brothers released

00:54:19.909 --> 00:54:22.710
Southbound, which was a collection of songs from

00:54:22.710 --> 00:54:25.750
throughout the band's catalog reinterpreted for

00:54:25.750 --> 00:54:28.949
country and featuring guests and duet partners

00:54:28.949 --> 00:54:32.469
like the Zac Brown Band, Blake Shelton, the late

00:54:32.469 --> 00:54:36.269
Toby Keith, Brad Paisley, and Sarah Evans. And

00:54:36.269 --> 00:54:39.150
when you hear these songs blended with that touch

00:54:39.150 --> 00:54:42.369
of country, There's that classic rock familiarity

00:54:42.369 --> 00:54:46.949
to them. But there's also a, you know what? These

00:54:46.949 --> 00:54:51.309
songs work as country songs. Could you talk about

00:54:51.309 --> 00:54:54.550
the band's thoughts on that album? And if these

00:54:54.550 --> 00:54:59.070
collaborations maybe widened the band's already

00:54:59.070 --> 00:55:02.469
huge fan base, at least from a country perspective?

00:55:03.929 --> 00:55:06.230
Yeah, I mean, I don't have a strong affinity

00:55:06.230 --> 00:55:08.070
to that record for a couple of different reasons.

00:55:08.190 --> 00:55:11.420
One, I'm not on it. I haven't played on any of

00:55:11.420 --> 00:55:13.559
the studio records that have come out since I've

00:55:13.559 --> 00:55:16.639
been in the band, which doesn't bother me. I

00:55:16.639 --> 00:55:18.900
understand that sometimes that doesn't happen

00:55:18.900 --> 00:55:21.679
with Sidemen. It's usually a producer's call,

00:55:21.800 --> 00:55:24.340
and it's the band's decision to either go with

00:55:24.340 --> 00:55:27.460
what the producer says or not. And they've chosen

00:55:27.460 --> 00:55:30.400
to go that route, which is no harm, no foul.

00:55:30.920 --> 00:55:34.019
The Southbound record, I can honestly say I've

00:55:34.019 --> 00:55:37.239
not even listened to it. Oh, wow. Yeah, for no

00:55:37.239 --> 00:55:40.940
reason other than I just... It wasn't something

00:55:40.940 --> 00:55:44.500
that I was involved in at the time. I think we

00:55:44.500 --> 00:55:49.780
did a Crossroads episode with Luke Bryan to help

00:55:49.780 --> 00:55:52.260
promote that record. And we may have done a couple

00:55:52.260 --> 00:55:54.260
of TV spots where we displayed a couple of the

00:55:54.260 --> 00:55:58.800
hits sort of as they are. However, it makes total

00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:01.559
sense. Because one of the great things about

00:56:01.559 --> 00:56:04.380
the Doobie Brothers is they are all over the

00:56:04.380 --> 00:56:07.900
musical map. If you go back to those older records,

00:56:08.570 --> 00:56:12.610
You could point to songs that would easily have

00:56:12.610 --> 00:56:15.469
fit into country radio of the 70s, which, mind

00:56:15.469 --> 00:56:18.329
you, was very different from what country music

00:56:18.329 --> 00:56:21.570
is now. Yes. But a song like South City Midnight

00:56:21.570 --> 00:56:25.429
Lady, a song like the aforementioned Texas Lullaby

00:56:25.429 --> 00:56:28.530
from Sam Keaton, any of these songs could have

00:56:28.530 --> 00:56:31.550
been played on country radio in the 70s. And

00:56:31.550 --> 00:56:34.809
not because they'd have pedal steel on them or

00:56:34.809 --> 00:56:38.250
violin, but because they'd sound like... country

00:56:38.250 --> 00:56:42.329
songs of that era. Although you don't have somebody

00:56:42.329 --> 00:56:47.030
singing with any kind of twang, they're acoustic

00:56:47.030 --> 00:56:51.590
based country flavored songs. And when you get,

00:56:51.809 --> 00:56:54.130
I mean, the initial thing with the Doobie Brothers,

00:56:54.389 --> 00:56:56.889
I mean, you know, it was very much Tom Johnston

00:56:56.889 --> 00:57:00.909
and Pat Simmons kind of baby. They were the two

00:57:00.909 --> 00:57:04.250
singers, they were the two main writers and...

00:57:04.590 --> 00:57:10.130
Tom comes from a R &B blues background. And Pat

00:57:10.130 --> 00:57:16.329
comes from a singer -picking, almost folk acoustic

00:57:16.329 --> 00:57:20.269
kind of background. And then you sprinkle in

00:57:20.269 --> 00:57:22.510
the intersection of the things that they love.

00:57:22.570 --> 00:57:24.670
Like, they both love the Bay Area band called

00:57:24.670 --> 00:57:28.809
Moby Grape. And they both love singing. There's

00:57:28.809 --> 00:57:31.550
a lot of vocal group approach to some of the

00:57:31.550 --> 00:57:34.320
Moby Grape stuff. a lot of the bands in San Francisco

00:57:34.320 --> 00:57:37.199
back at that time. And just the stuff that they

00:57:37.199 --> 00:57:39.599
heard growing up, you know, the Everleaves, the

00:57:39.599 --> 00:57:43.760
Byrds, you know, bands like this. So sprinkle

00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:45.840
that with some rock and roll and a little bit

00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:50.019
of psychedelic San Francisco stuff, and you get

00:57:50.019 --> 00:57:55.119
the Doobie Brothers in 1972, 1973. As unique

00:57:55.119 --> 00:57:59.019
as they come. And then, you know, four or three,

00:57:59.119 --> 00:58:02.219
four years later, you add a blue -eyed soul singer

00:58:02.219 --> 00:58:07.960
to that mix. And you've got a sort of band that

00:58:07.960 --> 00:58:11.900
could play any genre. And some of the instrumental

00:58:11.900 --> 00:58:15.699
passages, I mean, there are prog moments on Doobie

00:58:15.699 --> 00:58:18.300
Brother Records. There are fusion moments on

00:58:18.300 --> 00:58:20.760
Doobie Brother Records. Like, no doubt about

00:58:20.760 --> 00:58:23.460
it. There's hard rock moments on Doobie Brother

00:58:23.460 --> 00:58:25.969
Records. You know, you listen to a song like

00:58:25.969 --> 00:58:29.409
Without You or Evil Woman, I mean, the riff in

00:58:29.409 --> 00:58:32.230
Evil Woman gives Tony Iommi a run for his money,

00:58:32.369 --> 00:58:35.449
you know? For those that don't know, Tony Iommi

00:58:35.449 --> 00:58:37.909
is a guitar player on Black Sabbath. So, I mean,

00:58:37.969 --> 00:58:41.949
to be able to be in a band that, and also, you

00:58:41.949 --> 00:58:44.110
know, let me rewind a little bit. To be able

00:58:44.110 --> 00:58:46.690
to be a young musician growing up playing along

00:58:46.690 --> 00:58:50.269
to those records, I was playing along to all

00:58:50.269 --> 00:58:52.389
these different genres without even knowing that

00:58:52.389 --> 00:58:55.610
I was playing all these different genres. huge,

00:58:55.610 --> 00:58:59.329
huge educational component to my growing up as

00:58:59.329 --> 00:59:01.949
a musician, my growing as a musician. And do

00:59:01.949 --> 00:59:04.949
you think that that education helped flavor what

00:59:04.949 --> 00:59:08.469
you did in your time with Vertical Horizon? Yeah,

00:59:08.489 --> 00:59:11.110
I think so to a degree. I think the live album

00:59:11.110 --> 00:59:15.550
I made with Vertical Horizon is very much a combination

00:59:15.550 --> 00:59:19.550
of everything I'd learned as a musician up until

00:59:19.550 --> 00:59:22.230
that point, everything I had listened to, all

00:59:22.230 --> 00:59:24.599
of that. Because I didn't have a producer standing

00:59:24.599 --> 00:59:27.599
there saying, no, straighten out that fill or

00:59:27.599 --> 00:59:32.820
do that. Everything you want, less so. Because

00:59:32.820 --> 00:59:36.780
first major label record, first big time recording

00:59:36.780 --> 00:59:39.380
studio, working with a producer type kind of

00:59:39.380 --> 00:59:42.320
thing. Not wanting to get in the way of things.

00:59:42.440 --> 00:59:45.539
I sort of dumbed down my playing a little bit

00:59:45.539 --> 00:59:47.940
on that record to just kind of stay out of the

00:59:47.940 --> 00:59:52.440
way of the tunes. With mixed results, in my opinion.

00:59:53.219 --> 00:59:57.340
Go is all me, just rocking out. And the feel

00:59:57.340 --> 01:00:00.699
on that record and the confidence on that record,

01:00:00.820 --> 01:00:04.480
so much more so than everything you want from

01:00:04.480 --> 01:00:07.139
all of us too, particularly in the rhythm section

01:00:07.139 --> 01:00:08.719
with me and Sean, because you got to remember

01:00:08.719 --> 01:00:10.280
with everything you want, Sean had just joined

01:00:10.280 --> 01:00:12.880
the band and hadn't done a lot of the road work

01:00:12.880 --> 01:00:15.960
that we had done together up until that point.

01:00:15.980 --> 01:00:18.780
There was a bass player before him. So to circle

01:00:18.780 --> 01:00:21.280
back to your question, yes, from where I sit

01:00:21.280 --> 01:00:24.969
right now, I do believe that across all the recordings

01:00:24.969 --> 01:00:28.409
I've made, you can't help but be informed by

01:00:28.409 --> 01:00:30.269
all of those things that you picked up along

01:00:30.269 --> 01:00:34.570
the way. Well, in 2019, you had mentioned this

01:00:34.570 --> 01:00:36.750
earlier, Michael McDonald rejoined the Doobie

01:00:36.750 --> 01:00:38.690
Brothers for the start of the 50th anniversary

01:00:38.690 --> 01:00:42.489
tour, which was paused and subsequently resumed

01:00:42.489 --> 01:00:46.489
in 2021 due to the pandemic. Is there a dynamics

01:00:46.489 --> 01:00:50.079
change when he's a part of the fold? Versus when

01:00:50.079 --> 01:00:52.760
you were touring without him, either from a musical

01:00:52.760 --> 01:00:55.239
standpoint, a setlist standpoint, or just from

01:00:55.239 --> 01:00:58.539
the way the band presents the songs to the audience.

01:01:00.019 --> 01:01:02.500
Well, sure. Naturally, you're going to have something

01:01:02.500 --> 01:01:06.039
different with that. I mean, it's the idea of

01:01:06.039 --> 01:01:08.679
how different was Van Halen with Sammy Hagar

01:01:08.679 --> 01:01:11.059
than with David Lee Roth. Right. And you could

01:01:11.059 --> 01:01:12.699
have said that about the Doobie Brothers back

01:01:12.699 --> 01:01:15.940
at that time, but now you've got them both. you've

01:01:15.940 --> 01:01:18.000
got Tom Johnson, you've got Michael McDonald,

01:01:18.199 --> 01:01:19.699
and then of course you've got Pat Simmons who's

01:01:19.699 --> 01:01:21.860
been there through the whole thing. So you've

01:01:21.860 --> 01:01:24.920
got all the singers. I mean, imagine if we did

01:01:24.920 --> 01:01:27.780
get to the point where we were able to get that

01:01:27.780 --> 01:01:30.500
Van Halen tour with both David Lee Roth and Sammy

01:01:30.500 --> 01:01:32.699
Hagar. It would have been something else, right?

01:01:32.820 --> 01:01:36.199
So for Doobie fans, I think it's great that they

01:01:36.199 --> 01:01:38.619
have that. For the Doobies, it's great. There's

01:01:38.619 --> 01:01:41.280
never been any animosity between the members

01:01:41.280 --> 01:01:45.000
at all. So they all get along great. And I think

01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:48.480
it's just, if you can add a strength to what

01:01:48.480 --> 01:01:50.860
is already strong and that strength happens to

01:01:50.860 --> 01:01:54.940
be Michael McDonald, like, I mean, you know,

01:01:55.000 --> 01:01:57.360
it's like the Atlanta Braves pitching staff in

01:01:57.360 --> 01:02:00.139
95. I mean, it just, it doesn't get any better

01:02:00.139 --> 01:02:03.320
than that, you know? So it's a great dynamic.

01:02:03.539 --> 01:02:06.519
Yeah, it does change it. No for better or no

01:02:06.519 --> 01:02:09.320
for worse, just incredibly different. And the

01:02:09.320 --> 01:02:11.340
simple fact of the matter is when you have all

01:02:11.340 --> 01:02:13.440
those components, more people want to come out

01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:16.079
and hear it. Although you always have the people

01:02:16.079 --> 01:02:19.400
that are, you know, all the only true Doobie

01:02:19.400 --> 01:02:22.539
Brothers with Tom Johnston or the people that

01:02:22.539 --> 01:02:24.800
only like the Doobies with Michael. And, you

01:02:24.800 --> 01:02:27.460
know, you can't please everybody. And the bottom

01:02:27.460 --> 01:02:29.199
line is that at the end of the day, those people

01:02:29.199 --> 01:02:32.760
are the minority anyway. So what are the Doobie

01:02:32.760 --> 01:02:36.570
Brothers plans for 2025 and beyond? Well, I know

01:02:36.570 --> 01:02:39.789
I'm going to be on the road in 2025. They have

01:02:39.789 --> 01:02:42.369
a new record that they've been working on and

01:02:42.369 --> 01:02:45.070
they have a tentative title, but I don't know

01:02:45.070 --> 01:02:46.610
if that's actually going to be the title. So

01:02:46.610 --> 01:02:48.909
I'll sit on that. But we played a song from it

01:02:48.909 --> 01:02:52.190
during the last few shows of 2024 and it seemed

01:02:52.190 --> 01:02:54.389
to go over pretty well. And it's one of those

01:02:54.389 --> 01:02:56.389
things that I always wish that they would do,

01:02:56.469 --> 01:02:58.750
which they've done in this particular song, which

01:02:58.750 --> 01:03:01.630
is called Walk This Road. They each sing a verse.

01:03:02.010 --> 01:03:05.199
Oh, nice. Mike sings the verse, Tommy sings the

01:03:05.199 --> 01:03:07.440
verse, Pat sings the bridge. It's just a great

01:03:07.440 --> 01:03:10.539
bluesy shuffle, kind of almost classical shuffle

01:03:10.539 --> 01:03:13.099
kind of thing. And it's a really good tune, and

01:03:13.099 --> 01:03:15.099
I'm glad we were playing it. And, you know, I

01:03:15.099 --> 01:03:18.019
can't wait for people to hear it and experience

01:03:18.019 --> 01:03:20.619
it. So, yeah, there'll be a new Doobie Brothers

01:03:20.619 --> 01:03:23.199
record in 2025. I'm not quite sure when yet.

01:03:23.260 --> 01:03:27.940
My best guess is probably summer. And we'll be

01:03:27.940 --> 01:03:31.460
out there doing some stuff. well ed this has

01:03:31.460 --> 01:03:34.380
been an absolute honor talking music with you

01:03:34.380 --> 01:03:36.539
tonight look forward to catching you when the

01:03:36.539 --> 01:03:39.360
band hits the road in 2025 and most importantly

01:03:39.360 --> 01:03:42.019
thank you so much for joining me on my weekly

01:03:42.019 --> 01:03:44.739
mixtape my pleasure man thank you so much for

01:03:44.739 --> 01:03:47.420
having me this was fun And for those listening,

01:03:47.500 --> 01:03:50.099
head over to the episode page at myweeklymixtape

01:03:50.099 --> 01:03:52.860
.com to hear a playlist filled with some of the

01:03:52.860 --> 01:03:55.079
best songs from throughout the Doobie Brothers'

01:03:55.300 --> 01:03:58.559
incredible catalog of music. And remember, you

01:03:58.559 --> 01:04:01.019
can also find My Weekly Mixtape on almost all

01:04:01.019 --> 01:04:04.500
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01:04:04.500 --> 01:04:07.159
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01:04:07.159 --> 01:04:10.219
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01:04:10.619 --> 01:04:12.519
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01:04:12.559 --> 01:04:14.440
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01:04:20.500 --> 01:04:24.420
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01:04:24.500 --> 01:04:27.159
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01:04:27.320 --> 01:04:30.400
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01:04:30.400 --> 01:04:32.800
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01:04:33.099 --> 01:04:36.039
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01:04:36.039 --> 01:04:38.719
again for listening, and until next time, enjoy

01:04:38.719 --> 01:04:39.320
the tunes.