What is going on, friends? Welcome to My Weekly
Mixtape, the show that takes the classic mixtape
approach to building a modern playlist. I'm your
host, Brian Colburn. I hope each and every one
of you had a fantastic Thanksgiving weekend.
And if you're listening outside of the United
States, I hope each and every one of you had
a fantastic weekend. But now that Thanksgiving
is out of the way, Black Friday is out of the
way, today is December 1st. Cyber Monday, you
are all probably going crazy on all of the sites,
trying to swap up all the deals you can, and
I'm here to provide the perfect soundtrack for
doing so. I have been blessed over the years
here at My Weekly Mixtape to talk to some of
my favorite artists and songwriters, and one
of them was on my list since the first ever podcast
that I recorded for TuneStyles back in 2017.
And that person is none other than Paul Williams.
Last year, I had the honor and privilege to sit
down with Paul the week before Christmas, which
for me was truly a Christmas present in and of
itself, because I got to talk all things Muppets
with somebody that couldn't be any closer to
the Muppets musical universe than Mr. Williams.
of my favorite Muppety things, including one,
my favorite holiday special of all time, Emmett
Otter's Jug Band Christmas, and two, my favorite
song of all time, The Rainbow Connection, written
by none other than, you guessed it, Paul Williams,
as sung by Jim Henson or Kermit the Frog, depending
on who you ask. Now, Paul has been intertwined
in the Muppet universe. since the days of The
Muppet Show, and this is a conversation that
I feel last year did not get its just due. There
was only one week prior to Christmas that this
was out in the universe, and that's the week
leading up to Christmas, the week where everybody's
going crazy, buying last -minute gifts, finalizing
plans, running all over the place, but now we
are at the beginning. of the holiday season.
So last year, I made a promise to myself that
this episode would run not only in December of
2024, but also December 1st of 2025 to give it
the full spectrum of holiday joy that it deserves.
So I think the best way to lead into this episode
is to get the frown off your face. We're going
to replace it with a grin and a dream come true
because This episode of My Weekly Mixtape is
truly a dream come true for me. So sit back with
your cider nut wine, maybe grab a mess of mama's
barbecue, and enjoy this celebration of Emmett
Otter's Jug Band Christmas and the Muppet movie
with the one and only Paul Williams. There are
simply no words to express how grateful I am
to welcome tonight's guest. He's written hits
for Three Dog Night, The Carpenters, Barbra Streisand,
The Monkees, and Daft Punk, just to name a few.
He's appeared on screen in Smokey and the Bandit,
The Muppet Movie, Oliver Stone's The Doors, and
many others. And along with that, he's the president
of the ASCAP Board of Directors, an essential
resource for songwriters, composers, and music
publishers. But most importantly, for me at least,
He is the songwriter responsible for my favorite
song of all time, The Rainbow Connection. It's
my absolute honor to welcome the one and only
Paul Williams to my weekly mixtape. Thank you
for joining me, Paul. Thank you, Brian. I really
appreciate it. You know, the one great thing
about what we do for a living, we don't have
to give up our fan card. I mean, you don't give
up yours. I don't give up mine. So when you talk
about the Muppets. You're talking about Jim Henson
and Brian Henson and the Henson family and some
of my dearest friends, Gonzo and Kermit and the
gang. So this is something I love talking about
people that I love and whatever Gonzo is. Well,
before we get to the good stuff, I always like
to start by asking my first time guests, what
does the word mixtape mean to you? Ah, I remember
my daughter when she was in high school, had
just been accepted at Tulane. And she said, Dad,
I asked her about something, what she was listening
to. And she said, well, my mixtape is, and she
had everything from, you know, from reggae to
Sarah Vaughan to, you know, and it's like, and.
There was an immediate reassurance that I had
a culturally diverse and a daughter, but beyond
culturally diverse, it's, I would say, genre
diverse and time frame as far as point of creation,
curiosity, which was wonderful to hear. You know,
so it's like the idea that she could have a Hank
Williams record. And then after listening to
that, listening to Edith Piaf or something, you
kind of go, wow, and then jump into Daft Punk
because you got to pay attention to dad once
in a while. Well, there are so many areas of
your career that we could dive into, but tonight
we're going to hone in on two specific soundtracks
that you played a major role in. Now, given the
time of year it is, I think it's only fitting
that we start with what is, in my humble opinion,
the greatest Christmas special ever, that being
Emmett Otter's Jug Band Christmas. This was the
special that I grew up watching year in and year
out, and my wife and I have been lucky enough
to be able to continue that tradition with our
children each and every Christmas Eve. Paul,
when Emmett Otter was in its earliest stages
of development, what were you working with when
you were composing these songs? Was it just the
script? Or did you have an idea of what these
characters would already look and sound like?
Well, first of all, where the title appeared
before me for the first time was on a book that
Jim Henson handed me in England. I went over
to do The Muppet Show. I was on the first season.
I think it was like the fifth episode or something,
fifth or eighth, I don't know. But it was the
first season of The Muppet Show. And I was already
a huge fan of the Muppets. I mean, all the way
back to Jim with his slinkies on the Ed Sullivan
show. I loved them. On the road, my band and
I watched Sesame Street probably more than the
evening news in those days. I always joke that
there were members of my band that learned how
to use a fork watching Sesame Street. So I was
a big, big fan. And when I went over to do the
Muppet show, It was like stepping under, you
know, I felt, you know, in Emmett Otter's Jugman
Christmas, the guys have a treehouse. And I felt
like when I walk on the set of The Muppet Show,
I felt like I was in a treehouse with a gang
that I belonged to. I had never felt a more immediate
connection to a group of performers. The Muppet
performers were like instant family. You know,
we treated each other with the same respect.
and disrespect humorously. It was great. And
so I had the best time I think the gym did and
the whole gang did. It's just an amazing environment
to work in. But he handed me a book and he said,
you know what? This is an amazing little story
by the Hobans. We're going to do a one -hour
special based on this. It's called Emmett Otter's
Jug Band Christmas. And I would really like for
you to write the songs for it. And, I mean, I
was thrilled, of course, first of all, to have
him want to do something specifically with me.
Okay. When you work with Muppets, you act like
a Muppet every now and then. But, you know, so
what existed was, first of all, the book, and
then Jerry Jewell's script was the next thing
I was handed. There are actually some of the
titles of the songs are in the book. There's
a song about the bathing suit. I mean, there's
no lyrics, there's no song, but there's just,
you know, Amon and Amal were rowing down the
river, whatever, singing the bathing suit that
Grandma Otter wore, or a title that was close.
But, you know, I went off and wrote the songs.
I approach writing anything where there's a story
and characters. as an actor i mean i started
out as an actor i couldn't make a living at it
and i i evolved in you know one door slams down
sometimes on your fingers so you open another
one and the one that i opened it was open for
me was to write songs so all of a sudden i'm
sitting looking at these characters there are
two goals in writing songs for a a show like
eminata or or the muppet christmas carol or any
story with characters First of all, you don't
want to bog things down for a song. You want
to keep the story rolling. So it's like advance
the story and let's learn something about the
inner life of the characters. So those are my
two goals. So I can write a song like Hole in
the Bathtub. or in the wash tub rather, that
advances the story, you know, like everything
is super in life, you know, head full of good
thoughts, belly full of grub, you know, money
in your pocket when there ain't no hole in the
wash tub. And at the same token, write a song,
you know, like When the River Meets the Sea,
which speaks to kind of maybe an interfaith,
you know, where Ma and Emmett are about the fact
that they've lost the potter. He's on the other
side of the veil. So there's a little inner life
there and all. But basically, the stylings of
the songs is pretty much Americana. And I mean,
beyond my knowledge of Stephen Foster or whatever,
I mean, that was not the genre that I had ever
really, really written for. And I didn't really
research it. What I wrote came out of the characters.
And I was told after the fact, you've been writing
basically Americana music. with your words and
music to songs like When the River Meets the
Sea and the like. So it's a long, long answer
to a really good question. Well, how much was
Jim Henson involved during the songwriting process?
Because I'm sure he had a vision for what would
be shown in the film during the performances
of these songs. Well, he had a script about what
was going on, the songs I wrote, and he, thank
God, loved them. One of the things that was most
unique about Jim was that he was not somebody
who micromanaged the people that he worked with.
I think that applies to all of the Muppet performers.
It was a classic moment when I was brought in
to do the songs for the Muppet movie. And I think
in a lot of ways, Emma Daughter's Jug Band Christmas
was kind of an audition for me to see if I'd
be the right guy for the Muppet movie. I said
yes, but I also decided to bring Kenny Asher
in because his music is more sophisticated than
mine. So beautiful. We write words and music
at the same time, so we do both. I'm basically
lyrics, he's basically music and all. But one
of the first things we did is we met at my house
in the Hollywood Hills with Jim and Jerry Jewell,
the script writer. I think Frank Oz was there
and talked about what the Muppet movie would
be about, a road picture of frogs discovered
in the blah, blah, blah, blah. And walking Jim
to his car, and I've told this story a lot, walking
him to his car, I said, you know, Jim, this is
a big deal for you guys. I know that, and for
me too. And we're not going to surprise you when
we're working on the songs. I want you to see
what we're doing. Make sure we're headed in the
right direction. And he said, oh, Paul, I'm sure
you didn't say Paulie then, but oh, Paul, I don't
need that. Yeah, I'll hear him in the studio
when you're recording. And I was like, did I
hear that right? He was, in fact, I think so
secure with the choices that he made. And I think
he was smart enough to realize there's a certain
point where you don't try to guide. somebody,
you know, towards a very specific goal beyond.
That's the point in the horizon that we're sailing
to. I trust you to find your way to it in your
own way, and it's going to be appropriate to
the story and the characters and all. But I think
the other thing that he was capable of was being
totally surprised by what he heard and not just
rejecting it based. on the fact that it was not
in his original vision. I think part of the joy
of being a creative artist for Jim, and it's
a supposition on my part, but I think I saw the
way he laughed at stuff that Dave Goldsch would
do with Gonzo or some of the other characters
or Jerry Nelson. And he was the first observer
of... of some great performances. And I think,
I think that kept him solidly in that place where
he allowed the world of, of his creators to surprise
him. Well, then I want to kind of hone in on
that for a second, because in Emmett Otter, there
are instrumental moments throughout the show
that are kind of driven by the songs talking
about carrots, the dancing horse or the acrobatic
squirrels. Was there anything written in the
script that would say, we're looking for whimsical,
we're looking for circus? Or did you just kind
of read the script and those sounds just popped
up in your head? I don't remember the specifics.
I mean, it might have said, you know, like a
somber mood, you know, like the, you know, the
candle lights are blown out, you know, it's the
end of the day and there might be like a ballad
to come, whatever. But, you know, he was not.
I mean, if I could read that script and not know
what that should feel like, I was the wrong guy
for the job, you know. But the other thing is
that there are several things that I recorded
and wrote and recorded and produced through the
years where I was on the road with my band. I
had a fantastic road band. And they knew me so
well. I mean, that's like literally with, you
know, I don't know if you're a fan of Phantom
of the Paradise, but there's all these different
kinds of music in there. And I would go in with
a chord sheet and a lyric sheet that I had on
the road. We'd do like Thursday, Friday, Saturday,
Sunday gigs. Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday,
we'd sneak into a studio. A lot of times it was
Sigma Sound in Philadelphia. I'd pass out the
chord sheets, and this is something I just wrote.
And I'm like, okay, so it's... And they start
playing, you know. On Phantom of the Paradise,
it was a matter of sitting down and going, okay,
Beach Books. I was not myself last night. I lost
the fight. My woody barely run. They delivered
amazing performances immediately. And it was
a creative relationship that was just, I mean,
I don't know that I could have done any of the
scores. And also on Emmett Otter, all that background
music was, we just, there was no click track.
There was no, it was, we would screen, you know,
like that first scene with the, I'm trying to
remember what the opening cue was. But I would
look at it, and I'd sing or play what I wanted
for the guys. Guitar. Maybe, you know, and the
guys would play it. So we're, you know, with,
all right, roll tape, and we would play a cue,
go on to the next cue. And that's the way I worked
on that. Then you find me later on with things
like, you know, the Anne from Burt Reynolds,
or even the Muppet movie, where it's... I'm sitting
there with a great orchestrator next to me, you
know, and with that orchestrator, I'm going,
I'm hearing... I'm hearing arco basses there,
and I'm hearing a flute at the top, maybe with
high strings. Every now and then he'd turn to
me and he'd say, congratulations. you just killed
a horn player because the horn player can't get
into that register you know because i have no
training so i don't know what i'm doing but it's
like you know it's like the bumblebee cannot
fly it's been scientifically proven that the
wings aren't big enough but the bumblebee doesn't
know that he can't fly so he does the end of
the movie being there Chauncey Gardner does not
sink in the pond because he's so naive that he
thinks he can walk on water. So he does. I thought
I could do music when I was asked to. So I did.
Well, now you were talking about your band playing
these songs. There's no denying, even though
they're the antagonists in Emmett Otter, the
impact that the Riverbottom Nightmare Band had
on both the special itself and then the hearts
of us who grew up watching it. That song was
obviously either inspired or influenced by the
psychedelic rock scene of the decade, like Iron
Butterfly, Jimi Hendrix, The Doors. Was that
how you presented it to the band? You know, the
fact that I write certain kinds of music, for
example, you know, when I first started out,
I was a very middle -of -the -road writer. I
loved, you know, the Laurel Canyon crowd and
wished I was a part of it, but I was writing
for, you know... Thank God, the Carpenters and
Three Dog Night and amazing bands and amazing
musicians, but not really the Metallica crowd.
Incidentally, I saw Metallica live at the Library
of Congress when Elton and Bernie were given
the Gershwin Prize. And I had never seen Metallica,
and I somehow missed that the opening band was
Metallica that I did not recognize. But I went
nuts. I was, oh, my God, the guitar work. I like
that. That's Metallica. I went, oh, that's Metallica?
You know, it's like Michael Keaton in Starman
when he tastes apple pie the first time and he
goes, that's apple pie? So there's, I mean, when
I was writing for, you know, before I had any
hits going, I was writing album cuts for Steve
Lawrence or, you know, the Peppermint Trolley
or whatever. or when I was writing for the Carpenters
and the like, or Helen Reddy, or Stryson. The
music I was listening to was the original Delaney
and Bonnie and Friends. I was a huge fan of Poco,
and my taste was much more rock and roll than
what I was creating. So when I sit down and I
have a chance to write for Dr. Teeth, you know,
you know, or the Riverbottom Nightmare Band,
I was like, I dive in. I love it. Well, the one
question I want to ask you from a songwriting
perspective for Emmett Otter, when you were writing
Our World and Brothers, the theme of those songs,
and I hope I'm not spoiling the ending to Emmett
Otter here. If you haven't seen it, skip over
this part. the theme of those songs are the fact
that they work better together than separate.
So when you were writing it, did you write the
combined version first and then break out the
two other songs? Or did you write each song and
say, how the heck am I supposed to put these
together now? You just kind of described it perfectly.
It had to be a... The way that it came together
was realizing that they had to fit at each piece.
So to write two separate songs and try to do
that would have been crazy. So I went, we're
close. We're closer now than ever before. How
much alike we are. Perhaps we're long lost brothers.
You know, there's love in our world and we're
showing it more. We even think we're the same.
You know, there may be others. I wrote the second
song as kind of an answer to each line of the
first song. And then I got out musical scissors
and cut them in two and went, we're closer now
than ever before. There's love in our world and
we're showing it more. So they each existed separately
and enough to be an actual song. I think that
they're both equally sentimental. And it worked.
I mean, it was wonderful. It's one of those things
where you go, you know, you can write it and
try to put them together and hope it fits, or
you can write it as a two -piece thing and hope
that it works as two separate songs. And it did.
And, of course, you go back to the way it was
played. If you haven't heard it, My Morning Jacket,
there's an album called The Green Album. Yes.
And My Morning Jacket doing... Brothers in our
world, it's stunning. To me, it sounds like a
Beatles recording. It sounds like something that
could have been on a revolver. And I'm talking
about the performance, not necessarily the songs,
although it's a great surprise when you hear
somebody perform in a way that just makes it
brand new and really exciting for the creator.
And Jim James really did that for me. I mean,
with with Morning Jacket. And one last holiday
related question here, because you did bring
it up in one of your other answers, as you also
wrote the music for The Muppet Christmas Carol.
However, in this instance, you worked with Brian
Henson, who made his directorial debut on that
film. Given your work with Jim in the past and
your connection to the family and all the other
Muppet performers through the years. What were
the similarities and differences between working
with Jim and Brian? Well, you know, Brian had
always been a part of the Henson experience for
me. I mean, he worked on the early projects in
various capacities. I mean, he just, it's in
his DNA. And the fact is, and there are differences.
I mean, it's like there was a focus and an intensity.
to Brian, you know, and Jim was very kind of
laid back and, you know, play a song for Jim.
And I remember, for example, played, I'm going
to go back there someday for him, a song that
was not called for in the script. And Jim was
like, oh, oh, my, oh, it's pretty. He wandered
off. It was like, that's the way Jim said no.
You know, I think Brian would have gone. It doesn't
work. But what Brian did with the Muppet Christmas
Carol is still stunning to me. And what Jim did
is, of course, equally stunning. But it felt
like in some ways Brian just, God, I mean, what
a debut. Jim developed his career through the
years and never lost that playfulness or that.
that sweetness and the edgy humor that went with
it. And Brian has those same elements, and it
seems like he did it off the starting line. A
lot of people have said through the years that
the Muppet Christmas Carol is the best of the
film Christmas carols. I mean, just to be included
with the original, the earlier films is amazing,
but I also see what they're talking about because
I think there's a heart to the Muppet Christmas
Carol that is rare and really touching, and it's
pure Henson. It's the Henson family, the Henson
performers, you know. And you know what? I'm
just a good fit with those guys. I feel my heart
is tugged at the same places theirs are. Well,
for the mixtapers listening tonight, if you'd
like to hear the songs we're talking about in
this discussion, be sure to visit the episode
page at myweeklymixtape .com, where I'll have
all the songs embedded in a playlist for your
listening pleasure. Now, Paul, let's pivot now
to 1979's The Muppet Movie and the soundtrack
that, once again, you played such a pivotal role
in. You had mentioned earlier that your working
relationship with Jim Henson on Emmett Otter
was kind of like the tryout for The Muppet Movie.
How did that pave the way for you both to essentially
up the ante in every aspect for the first Muppets
theatrical film? Well, I don't think, I'm not
sure we did any of that and paving the way or
whatever. Like what we did is the next sweet
thing we got to do together. You know, there
is, you know, I mean, I'm hesitant just, you
know, it's called the present because it's a
gift. Something about being in the moment and
involved in something that is so much fun. so
impactful on just your basic psyche. Because
when you sit down to work with the market performers
and under the leadership of Jim, you're stepping
into a world that it's impossible not to just
take big breaths and go, how did I get here?
Oh my God, how did I get here? And then you are,
in my case, I was awash with gratitude and, To
be working with Kenny, and it's interesting,
you know, the classic case of two guys that are
really right for something, writing something
is easy to sell. What a lot of people don't know
about is those two guys sitting down and writing,
for example, the first verse of a song like Rainbow
Connection. where you just write something where
at the end of those first couple lines, you look
at each other and you go, eek, what have we done?
Think about it. Why are there so many songs about
rainbows? And what's on the other side? Rainbows
are visions, but only illusions. Rainbows have
nothing to hide. And we looked at each other
and went, oh, crap, wait a minute. Well, now
we've done it. Look what we did. We just denied.
the existence of any magic, any mystical anything
other than just an illusion, you know, to rainbows.
But what happened then is a pure gift from the
muse or the big amigo or the universe or what,
but what happens next is Kermit sits in the next
line, walks away from the podium in a sense,
stops being the teacher or the mentor. And he
sings, so we've been told and some choose to
believe it. I know the wrong way to see. Someday
we'll find it. The rainbow connection, the lovers,
the dreamers, and me. What happens in that moment
is he truly becomes a member of the audience.
And we're sitting there and now they're telling
us it's just illusions. And later on in the song,
who said that every wish would be heard and answered
when wished on the morning star? Somebody thought
of that. And someone believed it. Look what it's
done so far. There is elements of a faith in
there that is very personal to me. I believe
that what we dwell on, we create. If I keep thinking,
I'm not going to get that job, I'm not going
to get that job. Why should I bother? I'm not
going to get that job. It's like I'm absolutely
giving the universe my plans for this immediate
future as opposed to, wow, what's coming next?
Oh, that would be a great job. But if I don't
get that, whatever I do get is probably going
to be better. That mindset, I think, has a solid
influence on maybe in a co -creator in my future.
It's almost like delivering your list. You pull
up to the window at a fast food place and let
them know what you want, and they give it to
you. I'm not suggesting that I am turning the
universe into a fast food window. What I'm saying
is that our intention. Our intention speaks louder
than we do sometimes. And so that amazing moment
in writing Rainbow Connection with Kenny is something
that I look back on and I go, you know what?
I don't know who else's names to put on the sheet
music, but it feels like there's a lot of energy
and a lot of brilliance hovering overhead sometimes
when you're sitting there and you're like, what
am I going to write? So you postpone it, but
you don't get to it right away. And then when
you finally, it's like trying to remember a name,
it pops into your head, it pours out of you.
It's a really long answer. I hope that it was
somewhere close to the question you asked. Are
you kidding me? I mean, look, I have to kind
of do an aside here because I started podcasting
in 2017. And my co -host, Jay Sweet, and I had
a show for several years called Tune Styles.
And the whole time when we were building that
show and getting our feet under us and getting
this podcast thing going, I kept saying, I want
to talk to the people whose music meant something
to me. And I created a list of people that I
wanted to talk to at some point in life. And
at the top of that list was Paul Williams because
of Rainbow Connection. This is the song that
I danced with my mom to when I was still in preschool.
She would put the record on because it was my
album. The Muppet movie was one of the first
albums my parents bought me. And I remember vividly
walking over and dancing with her to that song,
to the whole soundtrack. But Rainbow Connection
was the one that always resonated most with us.
So fast forward many years down the road. And
in 2005, my wife and I got married. And my mom
said, whatever you do, if you play Kermit the
Frog. For our mother -son dance, I'll never be
able to make it through. And I said, don't worry,
Ma. I promise you Kermit the Frog will not start
our mother -son dance. And I was very honest
about that. Because what I did was, being an
audio engineer, is I took Kenny Loggins' version
of the Rainbow Connection. And I played the first
few lines of the song. And she whispered in my
ear and she says, okay, very good, Brian. She
goes, because if I heard Kermit, I would have
lost it. Right at the end of the half of the
verse that you talked about where it went into
Kermit walking away from the podium, I actually
crossfaded the two songs and had Kermit finish
the song. And I'm literally, I'm welling up right
now talking about it because this song just means
so much to me and so much to my mom. And she's
still here. She's going to listen to this episode.
I really don't have an end to that, but this
interview means so much to me. Let me tell you
that that's what I call a heart payment, you
know, because it's like when I hear a story like
that about you and your mom and then the fact
that it was a part of your wedding and all that
means I was there in some way. I mean, what a
gift to return to me to share that. So on behalf
of Kenny Asher and I and on behalf of Kermit,
Thanks for the invitation. Thanks for taking
us to the party. And thanks for letting me see
your heart, you know, because that's all about
heart. You know, my minister gets very, very
passionate and touched by things when he's speaking.
His name is Jim Terrell. And every now and then
he gets that thing in his throat where he just
can't make a sound. You know, it's like... And
he'll wait till he can actually get it out. And
he always says, God's punctuation. So that little
thing in your throat, when you're touched and
all of a sudden your throat tightens up and you
can't speak, that's evidence of a big, big open
heart. And maybe it's God's punctuation. Like
I refer to the big amigo as the big amigo because
it's a very friendly. presence. I'm 34 years
sober. So part of us getting sober is finding
a higher power of our own understanding. And
I always said, I don't understand my higher power,
but I don't understand electricity either, but
I use it. It lights up my life and the same thing
with my faith. So thanks for sharing that. That's
a big deal to me. Well, because I've said all
of that, I have a lot of questions about this
song. I've waited 45 years to ask. So the first
one is, when you were in the studio and Jim Henson
recorded this vocal track using Kermit's voice,
what was your initial reaction to hearing this
song, hearing your lyrics, your and Kenny's creation
come out through Kermit? Well, I produced the
album, so I was in the studio with Jim, and Jim
walked up and he sang it beautifully, but something
was missing. It fell away. And I can't even tell
you what it was or why, but it was a guy named
Gary Elmer had a great little studio where we
recorded, and Jim was just at the microphone
singing. And somewhere along the line, I don't
know if I suggested it. I don't know that he
suggested it. I think it was me, but I'm not
sure that he got Kermit. And he brought Kermit
in and sat down with a mic in front of him, but
he had Kermit, and he sang basically one take.
It just went, lay me down, please, Lord, that's
magic. And here's what I think about today instead
of then. I think that it's very possible that
the vocal to the first one was exactly the same
as the vocal to the second one. But what happened
is when you cast it as Kermit and you see Kermit,
your heart responds, or better yet, my heart
responded at that moment to everything Kermit
meant to me and means to all of us. And to hear
Kermit delivering that exact same performance.
Might have just been the difference. In other
words, I think that Jim needed to sing it better.
Perhaps I needed to listen more lovingly. Well,
the follow up on that question, you did appear
in the Muppet movie in the bar scene as the piano
player. I'm curious, were you on set the day
that Jim performed Rainbow Connection as Kermit
for the movie? Were you on set the whole time
or? On set was that big tank with all that water
and everything. And Jim was underneath that in
like a little bubble, you know, a tank with his
arm up through, you know, what the Muppet performers
go through to deliver the amazingly textured
and layered performances that they do is just,
I mean, God, it's amazing. They have serious
back issues, many of them, shoulders and whatever.
But no, I was not there for that. And I think
I was probably on set for probably a couple of
days is all. I mean, I don't remember being around
for most of it. And that's not uncommon for me.
I think it's, you know, you... You know, you're
off doing the next thing. You know, I'm booked
to go back and play the piano player and steal
the movie. And so it was great and all, but I
remember seeing it the first time with the camera
coming in from, you know, the great overhead
shot down into the swamp and all, and Kenny's
beautiful strings and the like, and just going,
wow, you know. But also, you know, I scored,
I mean, Kenny and I wrote the songs together,
and as soon as... We'd done the songs and the
movie was shot. It was time to cut. It was time
to score the movie. Kenny was going to score
the movie and do all that beautiful music underneath.
And Kenny's wife had a baby. And he sat in front
of the moviola for a couple of days. And he went,
you know what? I've got a brand new baby at home.
It's where I'm supposed to be. I cannot stop
thinking about that. And it was like Jim and
I both went, go, go. He slid over and I sat down
and started out with the very first cue. And
I just, I wrote the, you know, all the background
music and all based on mostly what we did. And
I think all along the way, you know, you kind
of get into like what's doing, doing what's right
for the piece and then you go away. And then
you come back and it's changed a little more
and the sound effects are put in there and all.
And it's just, it seemed the first time I saw
it with an audience and it was absolutely finished.
I was like, wow, Jim Anson, wow. So I have to
ask, the song ended up hitting number 25 on the
US Billboard Hot 100 and number 14 on Australia's
Kent Music Report. How did you... Kenneth and
Jim react to that news that Rainbow Connection
was a top 40 hit? Well, we loved it. We loved
it and was, you know, obviously very, very excited.
But I think that was absolutely gravy, you know,
to know that away from the film, the song had
a life. We didn't know how much of a life it
was going to have. And, you know, I recorded
it with Willie Nelson, a duet with Willie that
was like, God, like a childhood dream come true
for me, just like, oh, my God. One of my favorite
voices in the history of voices has got to be
Willie Nelson, you know. But all the fabulous
people that assigned me to do it with Jason Mraz.
But, you know, it was, again, there's something
about the now. You work on it, you're, you know,
and. A lot of that emotion that you're talking
about, of just the gratitude for how exciting
it is to see the success, a lot of that I'm getting
right now. I mean, it's like I've still got to,
you know, you talk about ASCAP. The American
Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers
is a million members. We license and collect
the royalties for our membership. We're 110 years
old. It's a full -time job. But I'm also still
writing. And I'm doing Pan's Labyrinth right
now with Guillermo del Toro. I just wrote all
the lyrics for that. Gustavo Santaolalla's music
is amazing. And it's Jeremy Hunger writing the
book based on Guillermo's script. And it's just,
I mean, it's headed with, for uh for london first
and then back into new york and it's you know
jj abrams producing so it's real you know and
i love the work i'm writing with a group called
portugal the man a lot you know and and i love
portugal the man john gorely and all the guys
are like family so i stay busy and i've got you
know a great family two great kids two great
uh step kids as well and four grandchildren And
I live on airplanes. I get to see them all. Well,
I feel bad going back to Rainbow Connection.
I have one other question for this one, if you
don't mind. But song was also used in Disney's
2011 movie, The Muppets, as both the Muppets
lounge act version, as well as the grand finale
to the movie. Were you involved in any capacity
with that or just the initial songwriter? My
involvement in that is, I mean, I had no involvement
in choosing it. I was grateful that they did.
I had no involvement in using it the ways they
did twice in the film, and I'm grateful for the
way they did. And I have a continuing relationship
around the Muppets with Disney that is a really
good relationship. And talk about not giving
up your fan card. I sobbed at Bambi. I mean,
Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs was like, talk
about a cinematic history that is royalty, absolute
royalty. And to have a relationship with Disney
is pretty wonderful. Now, talking about the Muppet
movie soundtrack as a whole, because we did spend
a lot of time on the Rainbow Connection, but
there's so many amazing songs on this soundtrack
that are such a huge part of my childhood. It
seems like every song in the movie kind of shined
a spotlight on a different character in some
facet. Moving Right Along was for Fozzie. Never
Before, Never Again was for Miss Piggy. I Hope
That Something Better Comes Along was for Rolf.
I'm Gonna Go Back There Someday for Gonzo. And
Can You Picture That for The Electric Mayhem.
Now, unlike Emmett Otter, you already knew the
Muppet characters because of your involvement
with the Muppet show. So did it make it easier
or more challenging to write these songs, having
already known the characters through the Muppet
show? You know, the fact is, before I did the
Muppet show, I had a relationship with those
characters. I loved them and I loved. I loved
the depth of the characters because Kermit and
Gonzo, for example, Kermit is like the Jimmy
Stewart of... He's every man. He's every frog.
And then Gonzo is this innocent that also has
just the wisdom of a Yoda. I mean, there is...
And Gonzo is a landlocked bird. And there's something
about... Gonzo, as a landlocked bird, I'm an
old skydiver. I made 100 jumps before I quit,
and I used to love free fall. I used to love
relative work. I jumped with the Golden Knights.
I made a seven -man diamond that I fired out
of for the Circus of the Stars. So I love the
freedom of being in the air like that. There's
a limit to it. I mean, we got 80 seconds of free
fall with the Knights or 60 seconds and civilian
jumps. But so I've got this connection. And there's
that wonderful scene in the desert when they
break down on their way to Hollywood and Kermit's
kind of beating himself up about it. But Kenny
and I are going, look at this. Gonzo's sitting
out there looking at that sky. You look at each
other and it's like. what's he thinking? And
it's like, if he's truly a landlocked bird, does
that look familiar to him? And so we wrote the
song and we played it for Jim. And you remember
the imitation I did of him rejecting a song earlier?
That's exactly where that happened. Because we
showed it to him and I sang it and he was like,
oh, so pretty. And then kind of just left. That's
it. You know, it was not listed as a place for
a song. I guess there's not going to go a song
there. But a couple of days later, Jim shows
up. And he goes, listen, what do you think of
this? What if Gonzo buys a bunch of helium balloons
for Camilla, his also landlocked bird girlfriend?
And he experiences, it takes him up into the
air, and he experiences flight. But instead of
being scared, he's, well, the term I would use
now is awakened. His spirit is awakened to who
he really is, where he really belongs. And that
gives a meaning to the song later on that is
already there, but to somebody watching the movie,
you see the trigger to it. That's what created
that opportunity for that emotion to be expressed
by Gonzo. That, in a story, in about three sentences
or four, says volumes about who Jim Henson was,
I think. Life is a movie. Write your own ending.
Keep believing. Keep pretending. We've done just
what we've set out to do. Thanks to the lovers,
the dreamers, and you. Was the Magic Store the
last song you guys wrote for the film? Because
the callback to the Rainbow Connection, as well
as the way it plays out at the end of that movie,
I mean, the hair on my arms just stood up reading
the lyrics alone. It couldn't have been the more
perfect choice. We felt really good about it.
We knew that we wanted it. There was a listing
for it. First of all, there's the whole beautiful
ending. where they build a rainbow and it all
falls apart and there's an explosion, and then
the universe provides a real rainbow. Wow, I
just got you. I feel like Jim just put his arm
around me. And so it was a reprise of Rainbow,
but we wanted to do something more. And we wanted
to, you know, the thing is, sometimes you need
to button the lesson. You need to remind people
of what they've just seen, because with all that
travel and all this stuff that's gone on and
everything, and this movie, what has happened?
The line is, life's like a movie. Write your
own ending. But also the whole message is keep
believing, keep pretending. We've done just for
you. Well, the keep believing and keep pretending
is a call back to who said that every wish would
be heard. And if somebody thought of that and
someone believed it, and it's... This is a footnote,
in a sense, that reminds us of the truth of that
probability that that can happen again, that
somebody thought of it and someone believed it.
Life's like a movie, right? You know what I mean?
Keep believing, keep pretending. We've done just
what we set out to do. Thanks to the lovers,
the dreamers, you, and that and you. totally
now puts Jim, or Kermit rather, back in front
of the audience and reminds them that they have
all been a party to the success you're witnessing.
My entire career, incidentally, has been like
that. When I get calls from the guys at Daft
Punk, who saw Phantom of the Paradise 20 times
and then decide that they're going to start a
career as a rock band called Daft Punk. And then
they wind up, you know, coming to me and I write
a couple of songs and they ask me to sing one
of them. And we win the Grammy for album of the
year. That entire thing is almost, it's almost
a sidecar to what the Muppet movie promises,
what Jim promised that Kenny and I think we're
able to say. fairly clearly, hopefully. And if
not, it's just a great movie. A great bunch of
people to work with. A great bunch of furries.
My favorite furries in the world. Well, Paul,
to say that I'm grateful for your time today
would be the understatement of a lifetime. So
instead, I'm simply going to thank you for the
decades of sing -alongs. dance parties, and loving
memories that your music has brought my family
over the years. This has truly been an honor
of a lifetime for me, and I thank you for joining
me on my weekly mixtape. You've got a big heart
and an open heart, Brian. I said it before, and
I said, and don't let anything, I mean, like,
we're living through some really interesting,
scary times and all, so we need that big open
heart from you. and the people that love your
podcast. And I'm really grateful and honored
to have been a part of it, my friend. If I'm
being perfectly honest with myself, if that ended
up being the last episode of my weekly mixtape
ever, I feel like the show would have went out
on a high note. But if nothing else, Paul's words
inspired me to keep this thing going and work
as hard as I can and to continue to put out.
the positive musical discussions that I try to
put out each and every week. And 2025 has been
no doubt an extremely tough year for myself as
well as my family. But being able to sit back
down on this microphone and talk music with everybody
once again brings more joy and gratefulness to
my heart than words can ever explain. And I've
got so much in store for 2026. you better sit
down and buckle up because I don't know if you're
ready. Because hell, I might not be ready for
it. If there are topics that you'd like to hear
me discuss on My Weekly Mixtape, be sure to reach
out to me at myweeklymixtape at gmail .com. You
can also hit me up on all the social media haunts
at myweeklymixtape. You can join the Mixtaper
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My Weekly Mixtape. It's free to join and there
are other tiers as well if you'd like to support
the show a little extra. Then to hear a playlist
of all the songs we discussed in this episode,
as well as check out the full catalog of My Weekly
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.com. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts,
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Mixtape. And I appreciate all of the wonderful
feedback that you guys continue to provide me
week in and week out. My name is Brian Colburn.
This has been my weekly mixtape, and we'll see
you next week with another fun musical topic.
But before that, be sure to wash your hands,
because remember, the sauce mama makes will stay
there forever if you dare to get it under your
nails. Have a great week. We'll see you next
time.