Hello and welcome back to Keeping It Real On
Purpose. You know, we talk a lot about authenticity,
my tongue tied today, and take ownership on this
show. We're gonna take ownership on this show
today because we have a great guest. But what
happens when you're doing all the personal work
and you still have to walk into a toxic meeting
or handle a colleague who's constantly derailing
things? How do you keep it real without losing
your job or your sanity? Great question, right?
That is exactly why I'm thrilled to introduce
my guest tonight. She's an author, a coach, and
an absolute powerhouse. The emotional intelligence
specialist, Amy Jacobson. Amy's entire philosophy
is centered on giving people the tools to truly
own their shit. Don't think I didn't see that
on the website. Take control and be unstoppable.
Her work beautifully bridges the gap between
what is happening in our brain and how we show
up in the workplace, especially when things get
messy. Her books, including Emotional Intelligence
Advantage. I got that. A mandatory reading for
anyone who wants to stop being reactive. and
start being strategic. Amy, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me, Edna. It's great
to be here. I am excited to have you on. So I
was reading your book. I really was. I was like,
the title can't be that simple. It can't be that
simple. But, you know, I work on my emotional
intelligence all the time, all the time. It's
always inner work. You know, it's not I'm not
verbalizing it all the time, but it's internal.
I'm always doing something internal, you know?
So I'm working on it all the time. I'm always
working on it. Reactive. I like how you break
down reactive. That's a great thing. But tell
us about yourself, because I'm already started.
I'm on the roll already. I love that. I love
the energy that's coming with it. Yes, I'm based
in Australia, as you said. absolutely fascinated
with the mind. So the emotional intelligence
side, I think, you know, coming from the corporate
world and working in those areas for so long,
it just become really evident that a lot of the
time it's not, you know, what we're selling.
It's not the business we're working in. It's
how the people are communicating and how the
people are actually working together that determines
whether the business is success or not. And it's
always, you know, when you look at those workplace
environments, we throw together some of the oddest
mix of people, you know, people from completely
different skill sets, backgrounds, and we just
expect them to get along instantly. It's like,
you know, we're gonna put you in the same area.
We're gonna have you doing the same thing and
just do it and do it well. And when you bring
human beings together, it's just not that easy.
It's not. And I think, you know, workplaces these
days, they're changing and in a really positive
way, excuse me, really positive way in that we're
encouraging people to have a voice, we're encouraging
people to be themselves, we're encouraging people
to bring their whole selves to work and speak
up. But with that comes a lot of different opinions.
With that comes a lot of different ideas as well.
So we're seeing emotional intelligence just become
more and more important in the workplace while
we're asking people to be more authentic. Because
when somebody has a different opinion to you
or has a different style to you or has a different
approach to you, it's going to take your emotional
intelligence to be able to work out the best
way to work with them and to be able to leverage
that rather than to push against it or defend
against it. That's good. That's good. So your
philosophy about owning your shit. In the modern
workplace, what boundaries are critical? How
do we differentiate between truly owning our
reactions and behaviors versus taking responsibility
or accepting blame for things that are clearly
not our fault? When I talk about owning your
shit, the reason why I love, and this is why
I come from this angle, right, is because a lot
of the time when we hear emotional intelligence,
people seem to think it's, you know, soft and
fluffy. Right. no rainbows and lollipops. And
don't get me wrong, you know, that positive side
in emotional intelligence is really important.
But first and foremost, it comes down to you
understanding what makes you tick and taking
that responsibility and that accountability.
And I think, you know, in every situation, we
play a role. we play a role, and there are absolutely
some situations where you know that, you know,
you might not be the person that is in the wrong,
you know, there may be somebody else who is really
not being emotionally intelligent in that situation,
but we always play a role. And I think getting
people to understand that, a lot of the times
when I work with organizations, we are so quick
as human beings to point the finger, to say it's
somebody else's fault. And that's a natural human
reaction, right? Like we've been brought up,
we've been wired to be right. So we don't like
to be wrong and we don't like to be the person
at fault. So it's a defect of the mind to say,
it's not me, it wasn't me, it's you. And that
makes it so much easier because it means we don't
have to do anything about it. We don't have to
do a thing, right? Yeah. In every situation,
we play a role and whether that is choosing how
we respond when that person is not being emotionally
intelligent, whether that's, you know, choosing
the way that we communicate or respond, it's
always going to be a part and we've got to own
that. And I think when we look at these workplaces,
a conversation I had literally only a couple
of weeks ago with a client who is experiencing
burnout, who is experiencing just being overloaded.
and there's so much on their plate and they're
understaffed. And you look at the whole, the
culture is not great. The culture is quite toxic.
But the first thing that I said to her, and I
know her quite well, but the first thing I said
to her when she just burst into tears and said,
Amy, I am so burnt out, is there's only one reason
why you're burnt out. And that is because you've
let it happen. You can't be burnt out unless
you have let it happen. And yet the circumstances
that are around, that doesn't make them right.
Like, yeah, you're in a poor environment. You're
overloaded. You're understaffed. And I said,
but at the end of the day, you've chosen not
to do anything about that. You've chosen to say
yes. You've chosen to let that come on top of
you. Absolutely. And that's what I mean by you've
got to own your own shit first because you are
not going to change anybody else in this world.
You cannot control and you cannot change anybody
else. So start with yourself and take the responsibility
to really own your shit and own your responsibility
in the situation before you start worrying about
what other people are or aren't doing. True that.
I'm going to tell you that is very true because
I know that when I did go back to work, The management
was toxic, but I had to take accountability for,
hey, I know they're toxic, you know, and I'm
letting them get to me. And should I stay in
this, you know? That's right. And my ego was
like, I could change them because I'm so positive.
Yeah, okay. Yeah, it didn't work. That didn't
work. All it did was train me and it burnt me
out because I was... I was doubling my energy,
you know, to drown their any energy out, but
they were like that. They vibrate low anyway.
So it's like, it doesn't bother them. So I had
to make some big choices and say, hey, I got
to take responsibility because I'm seeing the
red flags and I'm just saying, I'm collecting
them, putting them in the backseat, you know,
I'm riding around with them, you know. And you
can't do that. Once you see the red flags, you
can't collect the red flags. You've got to either
correct them, but don't collect them, or do something
about it that you don't have to deal with it.
That's really it. Exactly right. And I think
that's a really common experience that people
have, Edna, when they know they're in a toxic
environment or they know that their manager or
their leader isn't a great leader or a manager.
you've got to make a choice and there usually
is you know those three choices that you've got
there like you want to speak up, you want to
flag it, you want to influence, you want to,
you know, to manage up and do as best as you
can to help them. Because sometimes those people
are not aware of it, that they don't know what
they don't know, right? But once you've attempted
that a couple of times, you've got to accept
it, right? Like you've got to accept that this
is how it is going to be. And now I need to either
choose to stay and be compliant with that and
accept the fact that this is how it's going to
be. nothing is going to change, they are not
going to change. And therefore I need to adapt
or I need to walk away. And that's a tough call,
but you know, sometimes I have these conversations
with people and they're like, yeah, but I shouldn't
have to leave. And I said, it doesn't come down
to what should or shouldn't happen. This is reality,
reality. That person's not going to change. That
person's not leaving. So you either get on board
and turn up and adapt to that. or you walk away.
They are your choices. That's right. That's right.
There's nothing else. And I know that I've talked
to some people with some of my clients because
a lot of my clients are either transitioning
into entrepreneurship or they're coming from
the corporate world and they're transitioning
into their own business or whatever they want
to do. The first words, I hate my job. I hate
it. But economically, I got to stay there. I
said, do you? I said, do you? I said, if you
get sick, you pay more in your sickness than
you do pay in your wellness. That's right. I
never thought about that. So I understand that.
I hear that a lot as I know you do as well. So
I want to pivot a little bit to types of workplace
changes that you wrote about. Someone is actively
trying to provoke you. And you know, we've all
been there. Someone is deliberately manipulating
or emotionally aggressive. How do you leverage
emotional intelligence in that moment so it acts
as an advantage rather than making you vulnerable
or a target? So this is tough, right? And I think
it's important to understand that the emotional
brain plays a huge role in our body. So to think
that you're going to get it right every single
time first go is not realistic. There are going
to be times that the way in which we are wired,
we have something called an emotional hijack
where our emotional brain can take over our logical
brain and it does it quite frequently. So I think
the first thing that I always say to people is
to know that this isn't something that you're
going to be able to master and then forever get
right. It just doesn't work like that. practicing
it and understanding and being able to recognize
when your emotional brain is stepping in and
driving rather than your logical brain. So when
you're confronted with somebody who is really
pushing your buttons or challenging you, it quite
often the part that they're pushing or those
buttons that they're pushing are in our emotional
brain rather than our logical brain. So to respond
with logic becomes quite hard because as soon
as that emotional brain has been triggered it
therefore comes to the forefront and it is driving.
So you are more likely to respond to somebody
who has come to you and actually pushed your
emotions or triggered your emotions. You are
more likely to respond with your emotional brain.
That is the one that is at the forefront. So
the best thing you can possibly do in these situations
is you really want to focus on the fact that
the emotional brain is there, but you want to
engage your logical brain. Now, there's a few
different ways that we can do this. The first
thing is pausing and allowing time. So if you
kind of picture in your mind, you've got this
kind of like this race against between the emotional
brain and the logical brain. something that hits
really hard or kind of offends us or you know
it's not right or it triggers an emotion. It
is going to be your emotional brain that responds
first and then it's going to be followed by your
logical brain. Gotcha. Now for everyone that
the speed in which your logical brain comes into
play is going to be very different, right? So
when I say pausing, the whole purpose of pausing
is to allow time for your logical brain to catch
up and hopefully overtake your emotional brain.
Now, depending on how intense your emotions are,
if somebody's triggered an emotional response
and you're coming at a nine or 10 out of 10 severity
level with that emotion, then it's going to take
a fair bit for your logical brain to actually
get in control of that and be able to move forward.
So having the ability to be able to just breathe
three deep breaths and just think about the situation
before you emotionally respond is giving yourself
a chance for your logic to kick in. And I was
listening to a podcast the other week and it
was it was Breno Brown's latest podcast with
Diary of a CEO, so Stephen Bartlett. And we know
that, you know, Brene Brown, when it comes to
emotions, she, you know, she's the guru. She
knows emotions inside and out, the true meanings
of these emotions. Right. And when you listen
to her speak or when you listen to any podcast
that she's on, you'll notice that she is the
master of pausing to the point that when you,
when I was listening to this podcast, I had to
check my phone three times to see whether she
was there. But it shows that she understands
the impact of the emotional brain so much that
being able to pause and be comfortable in silence
while your mind processes what's happening, while
your logical brain kicks in and says, okay, what
is happening right here? So when you're in that
situation, three deep breaths, just allow time
for it to kick in. The other tip that I would
say is that If you don't get it right, which
there is a chance you are not going to get it
right. The way you then respond when you don't
get it right is one of the greatest measures
of emotional intelligence. So having the ability
when your emotions jump out and you respond in
a way that you're not happy with either, having
the ability to stop and turn around to that person
saying. you know what that that didn't go too
well or I'm not happy with how I responded can
I try it again or or I'm sorry or I apologize
for that situation that holds so much more meaning
and will gain so much more trust and respect
from other human beings knowing that a you're
not perfect but be real and authentic and you're
not always going to get it right but you have
the ability to be able to own your shit and know
I didn't get it right How can I correct that?
How can I apologize? How can I now move forward
with it? Right. That's good. That's good. Because
I was going to ask you about that, some tools.
So you just gave them to me right away. So audience,
who feel your brain goes nuclear in seconds.
This is it. These are the tools. So even if you
have to rewind this, make sure you write the
tools down because I was like, yeah, I have been
doing that. And I'm patting myself in the back
as you say that, because I'm always thinking,
you know, because, you know, I'm a Scorpio. I
tend to be a little bit fiery. And I've learned
to pause. I think it through. Even when somebody,
you know, what they call subs, they throw subs
at you, I learned to think it through because,
and I call it my old Edna could say some stuff
that would snatch your soul, but why? Why would
I expend so much energy to you? I know I can't
control how you act, but I can control how I
act and respond. And that pausing. I've been
doing it for the last year, and it's getting
better and better. So when you said that, I was
like, yes. Thank you. Thank you. It's getting
better and better. I'm learning to pause no matter
what Sven said. I won't even take a phone call
if I have to make a decision that hour, that
second. It's like, no, give me the information.
I'll figure it out later. But no, I won't make
a decision right away. Because sometimes you
can be doing things in emotions. That's how sales
works, you know? And I just want to say, I'm
a marketer's dream because my emotions are like,
yes, yes, let's do this. I definitely think that's
something I'm never going to use. Yes, you'll
say yes. I tell people all the time, they'll
call me, I was like. Did we make an appointment?
They'd get thrown off. He was like, no, but we're
calling. I said, mm -mm. I don't make impromptu
decisions right away. And I hang up because I
used to do it a lot. Like, you know, stuff becoming,
do you know how it went, remember QVC when it
was around? I think it's QVC. Okay, I had stuff.
Okay. I had stuff. But yeah, you know, I've learned
and those are such good tools, audience. such
good tools. Now, in an organization that perhaps
has a toxic culture where aggression or emotional
suppression is implicitly rewarded, and I've
been in one of those places, okay? How can an
employee who generally prioritizes high emotional
intelligence not just survive, but truly thrive
and make competitive advantages? Yeah. Because
emotional intelligence is a skill, right? It
is something that we learn. Everyone can learn
it. And the great thing about it is that every
time you respond in an emotionally intelligent
way, it actually influences the other person
to do the same. So when you're in this toxic
environment, For one, you've got to make sure
that that toxicity doesn't become contagious
to you as well because we know emotions are really
contagious, right? So if you're in an environment
for long enough, then you will start to, it's
that whole thing of, you know, you are the accommodation
of the five closest people around you. And sometimes
those people aren't great, especially in the
workplace. Think about who you're sitting next
to. You've got to be really aware to make sure
that you are not contagious and you're not picking
up those other emotions and those other vibes.
But also to know that there's benefit in our
emotions being contagious because you can be
contagious to the people around you. And I've
seen it happen. When you have a culture like
this, and I'll give you an example because when
we talk about culture, culture is not tangible.
Culture is the outcome of a group of people interacting.
So when you have a workplace, that culture is
the output of those people that are interacting,
right? And as soon as you change one of those
people, you know what it's like, I'm sure we've
all been in a team before where it's had a really
great culture and then one person leaves and
a new person comes in and the culture just changes.
Something different, yes. The vibe changes. So
that shows you how contagious it is. So when
you go into a culture that is toxic, you are
playing into that culture as well. And to see
the difference that I've seen in some of the
cultures which are really toxic, simply the difference
of people walking in each morning and turning
around and saying good morning to everyone. Now
I know this sounds crazy, right? But there is
a lot of workplaces where people walk in, their
head is down, they do not talk to anyone around
them. I was in one of those. I couldn't believe
it. I was like, that's strange to me. Yeah, me
too, right? I'm thinking, what is going on here?
Even the difference, because as complex as our
brain is, there's some really simplistic side
of it in that. We create these habits, right?
And these expectations. And those habits and
expectations create that culture around us. So
when you're in a culture like that, if you conform
to that culture, you too will walk in and say,
okay, this is how it works. I walk in the door,
nobody talks to each other. Everybody sits down,
just head down, does their work. There's no social
shit. There's no friendships. There's no relationships.
You just do your job and you go home. And that's
where you start to get programmed as well. So
your mind says, this is what we do at work, where
if you start actually being yourself and walking
in, and I can imagine Edna, you walking into
a, you know, any workplace and being yourself
and saying hello. And, you know, the first couple
of times you do it, people might think, Oh, Edna's
weird. Like, that's what I got. That's not how
it works here. Yeah. But this is the power in
it, right, Adna? And it comes down to our confidence
and our ability to understand what makes us tick.
Because if you, you'll notice that, but if you
still say to yourself, I am who I am. I am still
going to walk in every morning and say hello.
Then what happens is other people's expectations
and habits and what they're expecting start to
get wired in their brain as well and it starts
to become a more consistent, a stronger connection
in that they know that every day when Edna walks
in they're expecting. They will expect you to
say good morning, hello. What's the matter? What's
the matter with you? Exactly right. Exactly right.
So while it feels like when you're in these cultural
situations that one person can't do anything,
one person can actually create ripples that turn
into massive waves. Because I'm sure that you
found, Edna, after a while of walking in each
morning and saying good morning and saying hello,
that after a few days, you might get the odd
person that starts saying hello back to you.
And then after a few weeks, it increases. And
then you get to the point where At some point
in time, you'll walk into the office in the morning
and someone will say hello to you before you
even say hello to them. And this is a very simplistic
example of how it works. But this is how you
create culture. This is how you create standards.
And this is how our military creates standards.
These are the expectations. This is how it works.
And when you're in a toxic environment, you play
a role as well. You can influence that and you
won't change everyone. You definitely won't change
everyone. But you will have an impact. And then
after a couple of months of you having that impact,
you then need to decide, OK, I've influenced.
It's probably not going to change much more than
this. Am I happy? And if I'm happy with this
to come in and do this every day, then stay.
But if your answer is no and you're frustrated
or you're starting to catch some of their emotions
or you're not happy, then own your shit and make
a decision. Go. That's exactly right. Sometimes
we overthink it. When you take that example and
you turn it into the way that people communicate
in meetings, the way that people form relationships,
it's all the same. It just starts forming those
little habits and those standards and those expectations
to say, here is what to expect from me. Here
is how I'm going to go about it. Here are my
expectations and seeing that culture actually
be created. That's cool. That's good. That's
very good. So Amy, let's talk about your book
now because you've answered all. I had other
questions, but you just answered them all. So
audience, I hope you all have a pen and paper.
Make sure you write this down. But I just wanted
to tell you, I love the book. It took me a minute
to read it because I was like... Okay, this is
getting on my nerves. It's getting on my nerves.
It's calling my shit a shit. So I was like, okay.
Yes. So I was like, okay, I got to breathe through
this. And it's like, okay, I own some of that.
And it made me categorize a lot of things. It
really did. And to see. that I did make a difference,
you know, because I was always kicking myself.
It was a waste of time, but just reading this
made, okay, I made a difference. Now people probably
say hello to each other, you know, because, you
know, you're making a ripple effect. But the
emotional intelligence advantage focuses on complex
challenges, right? What's the one unstoppable
truth about high stakes workplaces that have
conflict that most people and employees experience.
The conflict definitely comes down to the communication.
And I think it's around that difficulty. The
clear topic of this book is around difficult
conversations and change. And they go hand in
hand. And I think this is the most challenging
thing that we're hitting on workplaces at the
moment, because there is so much change happening.
And not just so much change, but the size of
the change is huge. And with the size of this
change, it's really challenging people's minds
because it is causing alarm bells because it
doesn't align to the wiring in our mind, those
habits that we've created, right? Our mind's
going, hang on, we do not do it that way. We
do it this way, and this is the way we've always
done it. So what that then leads to is really
difficult conversations, because when our mind
has got these alarm bells going off, it goes
into that defense mechanism. It goes into that
fight or flight response. And when you have people
in that flight or flight response, fight or flight
response, it means that that emotional brain
is kicking in. So therefore you have people attempting
communication based on an emotionally driven
mind with very little logic in place. So when
we have these difficult conversations, we tend
to get caught up in the winning side of things.
How do I win this conversation? How do I feel
like I'll walk away being right? Right, because
you're not really listening to listen. You're
listening so that you can have an answer. Right.
So it's your ego drive. Yes, exactly. It's that
part. It's that part when you get into that conversation
and you start to put your thoughts and your opinion
forward that it is You want them to agree with
you. You want them to agree with you. You want
them to tell you you're right. And that's just,
again, not realistic in a lot of situations.
So as you're coming into these really difficult
conversations that are happening in workplaces,
it's having the ability to actually understand
what is happening in your mind at the time and
why you are feeling that way. And this is the
whole thing with, you know, like, as you've said,
Edna, The more that we understand what makes
us tick, it's not about becoming some blueprint
of a perfect human being or some blueprint of
the perfect emotionally intelligent response.
There's no such thing. What it comes down to
is understanding, how am I wired? And this wiring
comes from things like our relationship with
change. It comes to things like, you know, how...
how do we control our different emotions and
how do we actually understand that there's no
such thing as a bad emotion, but what there is
is the appropriateness and the severity level.
So it's not about changing who we are. It's about
understanding who we are and then working with
that. So when we were just saying before that,
you know, that you and I are great for marketers
because you in the past are great for marketers
because we get so caught up on the emotion side
and we're like, yes, yes. I'll take 10. Being
emotionally intelligent is not about changing
the wiring of who I am and saying, OK, I don't
want to be that person anymore. Being emotionally
intelligent is about understanding that is how
I'm wired. So when I'm in a situation like that,
I am more than likely to say, yes, I'll take
10. So therefore, I will put things in place
like pausing. Therefore, I will put things in
place like this to be able to approach it in
a different way, to work with it rather than
against it. So when you're in these workplaces
and you're in these tough situations that I talk
about in the book when it comes to change, we
know that there's going to be some people in
the workplace that absolutely love change. that
the change for the sake of changing because that
is how they're wired they've been brought up
with constant change and to them constant change
is normal so when change comes into play they're
like yes let's do it like i need change i you
know i want something different But there are
going to be other people in the workplace who
have grown up in the same town their whole life,
have lived in the same house, have done the same
things, have had the same friends. And they are
people whose wiring is really... formed around
consistency and they are great at consistency.
They are so good at coming in and doing the same
thing day in and day out and doing it really
well. They stay in the same job for 10 years
and they're experts at it. These people are not
going to respond well to change. And trying to
force them to love change is a recipe for disaster.
But once you understand that that person, you
need those people in your workplace. You need
those people who love consistency and are happy
to do the same thing day in, day out. You also
need the people that love change. You need people
across the whole change scale. But when these
people come together, conflict occurs, right?
Because you've got some people that are going,
yes, let's do it. Let's change. Why are you so
upset about this? Like, get on board. Get over
it. It's not having a deal. And other people
are like, no, no, no, no, no. That's not how
we do. I'm not ready to change. I don't want
it that way. I don't see it the same way as you.
So this is where this conflict happened and this
is where the difficult conversations start to
kick in. And this is where it becomes so important
to have the ability to hold back your ego and
just listen to what people are saying and focus.
on the outcome that you're looking. All you need
is to work together towards the right outcome.
You don't need them to agree with you. You don't
need them to be the same as you. You don't need
them to be a clone of you. It is okay to be different.
How do you work together rather than against
each other? Wow, Amy, this has been such an eye
-opening conversation. That's really good. You
closed it right. I love it. I know everyone is
listening is going to feel really equipped to
tackle the next difficult conversation as much
as I am because I'm really confident just having
this conversation with you and getting this clarity.
Where can my audience reach you? and get a hold
to you and get your book. Yeah. So the best place
to find me is at my website, which is amyjacobson
.com .au. You can find my book in any bookstore
worldwide. So online, bricks and mortar, any
bookstore. And you can find me on social media
as well. So LinkedIn is my most active platform,
LinkedIn and Instagram. So as you can probably
tell, I love a chat. So please reach out. I always
like to know what's going on. Yeah, absolutely
reach out. Yeah. So audience, you really need
to check out Amy's book because when I read it,
it checked me out too. I truly thank you for
being here, Amy. You didn't have to be, but you're
here to explore coaching or speaking or anything
like that, but you were here. So thank you for
that. Again, if you want to reach out to her,
her name is her website with UK at the end, right?
A -A -U. A -A -U. See? Just here I go. I gotta
mess you up. It'll be under this video or in
the contents. Okay, how about that? So Edna doesn't
mess it up. So if this really touched you, like,
subscribe and share this episode. Because I know
there's some leaders out there. I know just plain
people just want to be able to lead better. and
live better in emotional intelligence. This is
Edna White and my esteemed guest, Amy Jacobson,
saying goodbye for now. See you later.