Welcome, beautiful people, to Keeping It Real
on Purpose. I am your host, Edna White. Today,
we're not just gonna talk about writing. We're
talking about the brutal necessity of truth.
Our guest ventures into the shadows, the places
where society hides its trauma, and its war stories.
He's an author, an educator in juvenile detention
halls, and classrooms of refugees. and the host
of the Shadow Work Writers. We're asking these
uncomfortable questions about craft, conscious,
and control. Get ready to dismantle the lies.
This is Shawn Anthony Michael, and we welcome
you to the show. It's great to be here. Thank
you so much, Edna. You're welcome. So tell us
how you show up in the world. It's wonderful.
I mean, it very much depends on where I am. When
I was a teenager, which inspired me to write
this book, Whistle Punk Falls. When I was a teenager,
I viewed it as you need to be yourself all the
time. You need to be authentic. Don't be fake.
You don't want to be phony. But I noticed that
as I age... I find it useful to have a box full
of, not masks, I wouldn't say, but maybe different
hats. As you can see behind me, this is my high
school classroom. I'm a high school teacher to
immigrants and refugees. It's a public high school
here in Seattle. And so I show up here as I have
to be buoyant. I have to be optimistic, but I
also have to listen. I need to listen to what
my students are telling me. Sometimes not with
their words, we speak different languages, so
sometimes words aren't easy, but I have to listen
to their body language. I have to listen to what
they're conveying and trying to tell me through
their behavior. And Edna, you might have heard
this before, that behavior is communication.
When young people are behaving in a certain way,
they're trying to tell you something. even if
it's behaving in a strange way, like my character
behaves in some strange ways, he's trying to
tell the reader something, he's trying to tell
his friends something and his family something,
my students do. And so I need to show up with
a big pair of ears to listen to my students.
Oh yeah. Okay, that's really good. I love that
you speak to students and get them at their best
stages, even though it may look... Like, it's
bad, it's the best stage. It really is. Because
you can intercept that and make a change. So
I love that. I love it. I agree, Anna. I think
that... Adolescence was, you know, I think Flannery
O 'Connor said, you know, if you survive past
middle school, you have enough to write about
for your whole life. Oh, absolutely. I tend to
agree. I think for me, high school was a beautiful
time. It was it was the best times. But just
like Charles Dickens says, in Tale of Two Cities,
best times, worst of times. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
I made some of my best friends. I'm still actually
I texted with one of my high school buddies today.
And I made some of my best friends then. But
I also had some of my darkest times. Yeah, yeah.
Talking about writing, because I know you showed
your book back there. Show it again. Show it
again. Show it again. There you go. Okay. So
talking about writing, what's one of the dangerous,
comfortable lies that you as a writer can tell?
So, I mean, I think a comfortable lie is that
something Steinbeck wrote in East of Eden. And
I love that book. I love Steinbeck. He's a white
-bodied author, and I'm a white -bodied author.
And he said this, you know, from the lonely mind
of the man, alone is where genius springs from.
And it's like that, that's not true. Like that,
that's not true. Like when I'm by myself, you
know, I mean, and it's paradoxical because writing
is done often alone, but I need to have my readers
read it. I need to have some friends, some loved
ones read it because sometimes they're messed
up stuff that I haven't dealt with yet that comes
out in my writing and I don't mean for it to.
Particularly as a white -bodied author and I
have some black and brown characters in my work,
especially with that stuff, I need to make sure
that I'm having people who care about me, but
also people who are... or aren't me, you know,
and that can look at it from a different perspective
to call me on my stuff, you know, if I have some
of my undelt business coming up in there, you
know, my biases or whatever that I haven't dealt
with yet or that I'm unconscious of. So I think
that's the biggest, that's the biggest comfortable
lie. I'm enough, the lonely mind of the man,
you know, whatever I write is genius. and you
will buy it. Maybe that in Hemingway's Day or
in Steinbeck. Yes, maybe, because nobody was
reading it back then, but that's a guy. That's
so beautiful. That's so beautiful, but yet brutal.
That is so beautiful, but yet brutal, what you
said. I'm telling you. So what's one act of dismantling
that lie can we do? We as writers, because we
both are writers. I love that you are. And I
can't wait to read some of your writing. I haven't
read any yet. I got to get on that. So I think
that we have to share. We have to be bold. We
have to be courageous. We have to share our writing
with people we love, with people we trust, with
people who are different than us. You know, and
definitely in the process of writing this book,
I mean, I had three editors, two are paid. And
I mean, even before long before it got to that
point, I had my wife read it. I had my best friend
read it. And then I had some other folks read
it too. And so yeah, I had to share it. And that's
that's gonna be nerve wracking and scary. And,
you know, because we I think we carry a lot of
shame sometimes about things we create and from
past traumas we may have, or just not feeling
enough. But yeah, we got to share it with readers
first and then listen to them, right? Back to
the whole listening thing, listen to their feedback.
That's uncomfortable. That part right there is
uncomfortable. It really is. That part you just
said is so uncomfortable to listen what they
say and take it and kind of move along with it.
Okay, let me use that. kind of make it better
or maybe use it later on to update the book or
something, you know, but that part there for
writer is so. You know, I feel like the one thing
I tell my students or I've told my students in
the past is that, you know, each each piece of
writing is just like every person. You know,
it has inherent worth, but it has infinite potential.
You know, some teenagers like, no, I don't. I
wrote it as perfect as is. It doesn't. It's like.
It has worth. It is worth it. It is inherently
worth it, but it has infinite potential for you
to improve it as much as you can. I mean, yeah,
it's true. I forgot what critic and that's true
for all writing. You know, there was a critic
who said there is a critic who said there isn't
one young person in this planet that could improve
a Shakespeare line or two. You know, like Shakespeare
stuff, it could be improved. You know, you could
absolutely almost everything, though, because
you know nothing is outside of growing if you
don't allow it to expand and it's nothing's outside
of that everything expands everything everything
it has the propensity to expand that's really
cool i know that um you know i don't know if
you experienced where you are but they're kind
of taking some writings out of schools and things
like that right and i know that a lot of it is
honesty you know, the books that inspire honesty,
you know, to celebrate culture and those truths
and those things like that. What do you believe
is crippling the pursuit of honesty for us as
writers? Oh my gosh, that's so good. Yeah, I
mean, luckily I'm in Seattle, and so it's a great...
But you know, we're, I mean, we're, you know,
we're like a center right of... of Castro, you
know, we're very liberal. And so we don't have
any of that going on, thankfully. But yeah, I
hear about it and it breaks my heart because
you read to expand your consciousness. You write
to expand your consciousness. And if you're not
doing that, why are you reading? Why are you
writing? You know, I mean, I took a risk and
I had a character who's Native American and that
process, you know, was about a... 10, 12 year
period of expanding my consciousness to be able
to write as a Native American person, you know,
as I'm a white body person. And so, yeah, I think
that that's, and what was your question originally?
I love it, I love it. I said, you know, we're
talking about, you know, what's actually crippling
the pursuit of honesty for writers. Yeah, what's
crippling the pursuit of honesty? Yeah, I think
it's, I think it's power. I think it's, when
we as writers are, you know, we're wanting clicks,
we're wanting likes, we're wanting followers,
we're wanting, you know, there's a kind of, you
know, we need to... We need to stray from certain
truths about ourselves, about the world, about
our neighbors. And there's a kind of power that
comes with that. What if are people going to
click or like or read me if I'm nuanced? And
so yeah, I think power. That's so good. I know
when I was writing, and I write about a lot of
trauma and things like that, you know, in my
own life, you know, and then kind of dissect
it with the generational trauma and things like
that, habits and all that great stuff. It's wanting
to be accepted in the commercial world because
we don't talk about those things in those commercial
worlds to sell your book. Those things are like
taboo, you know, and talking like the things
that you write about as well. They're not in
the mainstream of, you know, a publisher coming
and grabbing you, you know? And I think we miss
the good work of people when they are writing
to be commercial, like you said. That's what
I'm thinking it is. To be in the mainstream,
it's not really that great. It's like hollow
words, you know? And there goes the honesty.
Honesty is gone. Yes. And I am so thankful of
the writers that do go there. Yeah, and that
do make it commercial. Yeah, you know, I mean,
Toni Morrison has someone has taken up her mantle.
And it's the author of I just read it. It's called
Let Us Send novel by the same person who wrote
The Men We Reap. And she, I forgot her, I'm blanking
on her name. She's from Mississippi. She's an
African -American professor. And she goes there.
She goes to the trauma. She goes to, you know,
racial and gender. And she enacts it out in her
work in a way that's very lyrical, very symbolic.
And it's really reminiscent of Morrison's, I
think, greatest work. So it's really cool when
you come across writing that is commercial, but
is still doing that work. Yeah. Yeah. And I applaud
those, those publishers who do, you know, allow
me - Jesmyn Ward. Jesmyn Ward's the name. Yes.
Yes. I applaud them. So let's, I want to flip
the script now to talk about your book, because
we only got a few minutes, and your new book
that Whistle Punk Falls. Let's talk about that.
Tell me how that came about and, you know, give
us some little insights on that new book there.
Yeah. So I, this is inspired by my high school
experience. Some, I, I had a very tight friend
group and we saw a couple people in our friend
group experience some intense mental health situations,
and they didn't get the care they needed. And
so that, you know, and they, they hurt others,
they hurt themselves, they were disfigured in
this process of trying to handle their mental
health challenges alone. And so that, you know,
put me on an odyssey of studying psychology,
getting my bachelor's degree in psychology and
creative writing. and working with teenagers
and trying to step into those spaces where people
who are having mental health challenges, I wrote
poetry with people who were incarcerated and
who were in mental health treatment centers and
so forth, trying to step in and share space with
them and facilitate them making art. uh so as
a way of one disrupting the isolation but also
you know guiding them on a path of healing right
uh and so the book came about through a lot of
that work and through a lot of that experience
i started writing the book in 2012 and i completed
the first draft in 2017 okay and then through
about 12 uh revisions uh got it to the point
where i was ready for a publisher to publish
it And yeah, I'm so grateful they did. Oh, great.
What's one piece within that whole story that
you love? I love the fact that I love how the
last twist came about. I needed the son, the
main character, his name is Malachi Loud McCrally,
and he's Native American. And I needed to add
a twist in there to make the plot. better you
know that the novel needs to be lyrical but the
novel also needs plot it is uh it is it is artifice
and uh so i loved how the twist came about it
was the last thing i thought of i was in a very
low place with the book um i wasn't sure you
know i was getting rejected a lot and i wasn't
sure where it should go and i turned to loud's
mother the mother figure and she hadn't she didn't
have too much screen time and so i thought of
a twist involving her that could give her more
agency and more of a spotlight. And the book
is actually dedicated to my mother. And the book,
even though it's very boy heavy, it's actually
a book about mothers and sons that it's hard.
And so I love that I found that, that I discovered
it or I was granted it from above or wherever.
It's a much better book. with having some of
the character's mom in it more and having her
relate to that final twist. Yeah. And how difficult
or what was a challenge bringing, you know, one
side, which was like, as I hear, history that
you didn't know, you know, and in cultures maybe
you didn't know, to bring it into the true side
with what you do know, like the real part of
you. Yeah, that's right. Because I did have clients
and I did have students who were Native American
and I did, you know, interact with them and have
relationships with them. So I knew that side,
but I didn't know that some of the other sides,
like you mentioned, the history and culture and
all that. So yeah, it's just getting out there.
You know, I drove to the characters are of the
Makah tribe. They've become estranged from the
tribe, though. But it was still important for
me to read, to go out there to form some relationships.
I went on a tour. I learned and I did an interview
with one of the tribal members. And I also it
was I also shared my novel with a Native American
novelist buddy of mine. His name is Dennis Staples.
He read it. That was really good. And I took
some feedback from him. Again, I had to listen
to some things I got wrong and I had to revise
again. And so, yeah, that was all a process of
sharing and exploring and and taking sharing
space with and listening to stories. David Bowles
says that we should, if you're gonna write about
someone who's not in your community, we should
hold their babies. And what I think he means,
but how I enacted that out was by holding their
stories, holding the stories of Native American
people. And I read so many amazing throughout
this process. I read so many amazing works by
Native American authors that I was compelled
to write reviews of them. And I got a number
of the reviews published, which I was proud of.
And so that was part of the process, too, of
holding their stories. That's beautiful. You
have given us, you know, me some new insight.
And I'm so excited to read this new book. I'm
really. I'm really excited to get a hold to this
book. So audience, you should get a hold to this
book because I believe that Sean has really dropped
some gems here about publishing, book publishing.
I like it, I like it, and I know you love it.
So I'm not gonna hold them too long, but I want
one last thing I want from you Sean. If you could
write a single uncompromising sentence, just
one. that would be carved into every public square
in the world and serve a true purpose, what would
it be? That is a really good question. Oh man,
you're making me work for it today. To work and
to love. Oh, that's good. To work and to love.
And I'm cribbing off Sigmund Freud here. It was
attributed to him, I always say. quote my betters
but yeah he said that the main thing about mental
health and the whole field of psychology that
he more or less founded is uh you know to work
and to love if you can if you can find some work
that pays you some money and you can love somebody
uh that's you you've got it made you know and
so often when people are lost or people are having
difficulty in life, it's because they're challenged
in their work or they're challenged in love.
And so I think if you can find good work and
you can find somebody to love, you're in Clover.
Yes. Well, I want you to know that that last
piece that you gave us, this was for me first.
I really appreciate that. you know, honored my
heart and it just clung to it, so it was really
great. Sean, this was absolutely illuminating.
Your insights on purpose, truth, and the necessary
discomforts of truth and real writing are exactly
what this podcast is about. Thank you for sharing
your experience. We hope to read your book real
soon. read the one, the collection, right? The
Wild Familiar and then the new novel, right?
Whistle Poem Falls. That's right. This is the
new novel. This is my third book. And yeah, there's
a poetry collection too. But yeah, and then let's
do a book swap. Yes, let's do it. Let's do it.
Book swap. I'm on it. I'm on it. And guys, you
know, I'll tell you all about it. And remember
to look for Sean's book. Once I get his book,
he's going to be on my Roku channel. So I'll
tell you all about it. He won't even know nothing
about it. Don't worry. Don't worry. I'm just
along for the ride. All right. So audience, thank
you so much for being here. Remember to really,
really, really keep it real. Thanks so much and
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