WEBVTT 00:00:02.059 --> 00:00:04.459 Welcome, beautiful people, to Keeping It Real 00:00:04.459 --> 00:00:08.199 on Purpose. I am your host, Edna White. Today, 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:10.699 we're not just gonna talk about writing. We're 00:00:10.699 --> 00:00:13.259 talking about the brutal necessity of truth. 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:17.379 Our guest ventures into the shadows, the places 00:00:17.379 --> 00:00:21.120 where society hides its trauma, and its war stories. 00:00:21.780 --> 00:00:24.760 He's an author, an educator in juvenile detention 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:28.359 halls, and classrooms of refugees. and the host 00:00:28.359 --> 00:00:31.780 of the Shadow Work Writers. We're asking these 00:00:31.780 --> 00:00:34.780 uncomfortable questions about craft, conscious, 00:00:35.179 --> 00:00:38.320 and control. Get ready to dismantle the lies. 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:42.200 This is Shawn Anthony Michael, and we welcome 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:45.179 you to the show. It's great to be here. Thank 00:00:45.179 --> 00:00:48.039 you so much, Edna. You're welcome. So tell us 00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:52.500 how you show up in the world. It's wonderful. 00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:57.399 I mean, it very much depends on where I am. When 00:00:57.399 --> 00:01:00.000 I was a teenager, which inspired me to write 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:03.679 this book, Whistle Punk Falls. When I was a teenager, 00:01:04.540 --> 00:01:06.859 I viewed it as you need to be yourself all the 00:01:06.859 --> 00:01:09.159 time. You need to be authentic. Don't be fake. 00:01:09.299 --> 00:01:12.379 You don't want to be phony. But I noticed that 00:01:12.379 --> 00:01:16.340 as I age... I find it useful to have a box full 00:01:16.340 --> 00:01:19.400 of, not masks, I wouldn't say, but maybe different 00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:26.019 hats. As you can see behind me, this is my high 00:01:26.019 --> 00:01:28.280 school classroom. I'm a high school teacher to 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:30.420 immigrants and refugees. It's a public high school 00:01:30.420 --> 00:01:34.439 here in Seattle. And so I show up here as I have 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:37.840 to be buoyant. I have to be optimistic, but I 00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:40.620 also have to listen. I need to listen to what 00:01:40.620 --> 00:01:43.599 my students are telling me. Sometimes not with 00:01:43.599 --> 00:01:46.200 their words, we speak different languages, so 00:01:46.200 --> 00:01:48.379 sometimes words aren't easy, but I have to listen 00:01:48.379 --> 00:01:50.980 to their body language. I have to listen to what 00:01:50.980 --> 00:01:52.680 they're conveying and trying to tell me through 00:01:52.680 --> 00:01:56.200 their behavior. And Edna, you might have heard 00:01:56.200 --> 00:01:58.819 this before, that behavior is communication. 00:02:00.659 --> 00:02:02.700 When young people are behaving in a certain way, 00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:05.390 they're trying to tell you something. even if 00:02:05.390 --> 00:02:08.409 it's behaving in a strange way, like my character 00:02:08.409 --> 00:02:11.490 behaves in some strange ways, he's trying to 00:02:11.490 --> 00:02:13.310 tell the reader something, he's trying to tell 00:02:13.310 --> 00:02:14.870 his friends something and his family something, 00:02:14.969 --> 00:02:18.169 my students do. And so I need to show up with 00:02:18.169 --> 00:02:20.370 a big pair of ears to listen to my students. 00:02:20.370 --> 00:02:25.229 Oh yeah. Okay, that's really good. I love that 00:02:25.229 --> 00:02:28.750 you speak to students and get them at their best 00:02:28.750 --> 00:02:30.960 stages, even though it may look... Like, it's 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:33.919 bad, it's the best stage. It really is. Because 00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:36.020 you can intercept that and make a change. So 00:02:36.020 --> 00:02:39.300 I love that. I love it. I agree, Anna. I think 00:02:39.300 --> 00:02:42.250 that... Adolescence was, you know, I think Flannery 00:02:42.250 --> 00:02:44.530 O 'Connor said, you know, if you survive past 00:02:44.530 --> 00:02:46.389 middle school, you have enough to write about 00:02:46.389 --> 00:02:50.969 for your whole life. Oh, absolutely. I tend to 00:02:50.969 --> 00:02:52.830 agree. I think for me, high school was a beautiful 00:02:52.830 --> 00:02:55.370 time. It was it was the best times. But just 00:02:55.370 --> 00:02:57.370 like Charles Dickens says, in Tale of Two Cities, 00:02:57.629 --> 00:03:01.110 best times, worst of times. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. 00:03:01.189 --> 00:03:02.930 I made some of my best friends. I'm still actually 00:03:02.930 --> 00:03:04.870 I texted with one of my high school buddies today. 00:03:05.090 --> 00:03:07.150 And I made some of my best friends then. But 00:03:07.150 --> 00:03:11.229 I also had some of my darkest times. Yeah, yeah. 00:03:11.409 --> 00:03:14.930 Talking about writing, because I know you showed 00:03:14.930 --> 00:03:17.689 your book back there. Show it again. Show it 00:03:17.689 --> 00:03:21.129 again. Show it again. There you go. Okay. So 00:03:21.129 --> 00:03:24.250 talking about writing, what's one of the dangerous, 00:03:24.250 --> 00:03:28.770 comfortable lies that you as a writer can tell? 00:03:29.870 --> 00:03:34.310 So, I mean, I think a comfortable lie is that 00:03:35.949 --> 00:03:38.289 something Steinbeck wrote in East of Eden. And 00:03:38.289 --> 00:03:40.990 I love that book. I love Steinbeck. He's a white 00:03:40.990 --> 00:03:43.050 -bodied author, and I'm a white -bodied author. 00:03:43.110 --> 00:03:45.930 And he said this, you know, from the lonely mind 00:03:45.930 --> 00:03:49.509 of the man, alone is where genius springs from. 00:03:50.849 --> 00:03:53.349 And it's like that, that's not true. Like that, 00:03:53.349 --> 00:03:56.370 that's not true. Like when I'm by myself, you 00:03:56.370 --> 00:03:59.090 know, I mean, and it's paradoxical because writing 00:03:59.090 --> 00:04:02.129 is done often alone, but I need to have my readers 00:04:02.129 --> 00:04:04.699 read it. I need to have some friends, some loved 00:04:04.699 --> 00:04:06.599 ones read it because sometimes they're messed 00:04:06.599 --> 00:04:09.620 up stuff that I haven't dealt with yet that comes 00:04:09.620 --> 00:04:13.060 out in my writing and I don't mean for it to. 00:04:13.740 --> 00:04:16.279 Particularly as a white -bodied author and I 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:18.560 have some black and brown characters in my work, 00:04:19.300 --> 00:04:22.079 especially with that stuff, I need to make sure 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:25.279 that I'm having people who care about me, but 00:04:25.279 --> 00:04:28.029 also people who are... or aren't me, you know, 00:04:28.089 --> 00:04:31.129 and that can look at it from a different perspective 00:04:31.129 --> 00:04:35.670 to call me on my stuff, you know, if I have some 00:04:35.670 --> 00:04:38.730 of my undelt business coming up in there, you 00:04:38.730 --> 00:04:41.009 know, my biases or whatever that I haven't dealt 00:04:41.009 --> 00:04:42.990 with yet or that I'm unconscious of. So I think 00:04:42.990 --> 00:04:45.129 that's the biggest, that's the biggest comfortable 00:04:45.129 --> 00:04:48.870 lie. I'm enough, the lonely mind of the man, 00:04:49.029 --> 00:04:52.810 you know, whatever I write is genius. and you 00:04:52.810 --> 00:04:57.110 will buy it. Maybe that in Hemingway's Day or 00:04:57.110 --> 00:04:59.910 in Steinbeck. Yes, maybe, because nobody was 00:04:59.910 --> 00:05:03.750 reading it back then, but that's a guy. That's 00:05:03.750 --> 00:05:06.290 so beautiful. That's so beautiful, but yet brutal. 00:05:06.470 --> 00:05:08.629 That is so beautiful, but yet brutal, what you 00:05:08.629 --> 00:05:12.509 said. I'm telling you. So what's one act of dismantling 00:05:12.509 --> 00:05:15.029 that lie can we do? We as writers, because we 00:05:15.029 --> 00:05:17.720 both are writers. I love that you are. And I 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:20.279 can't wait to read some of your writing. I haven't 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:23.920 read any yet. I got to get on that. So I think 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:26.439 that we have to share. We have to be bold. We 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:28.439 have to be courageous. We have to share our writing 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:31.160 with people we love, with people we trust, with 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:34.660 people who are different than us. You know, and 00:05:34.660 --> 00:05:36.699 definitely in the process of writing this book, 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:41.180 I mean, I had three editors, two are paid. And 00:05:41.180 --> 00:05:43.139 I mean, even before long before it got to that 00:05:43.139 --> 00:05:45.600 point, I had my wife read it. I had my best friend 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:48.579 read it. And then I had some other folks read 00:05:48.579 --> 00:05:51.620 it too. And so yeah, I had to share it. And that's 00:05:51.620 --> 00:05:55.060 that's gonna be nerve wracking and scary. And, 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:57.100 you know, because we I think we carry a lot of 00:05:57.100 --> 00:06:01.129 shame sometimes about things we create and from 00:06:01.129 --> 00:06:03.430 past traumas we may have, or just not feeling 00:06:03.430 --> 00:06:06.009 enough. But yeah, we got to share it with readers 00:06:06.009 --> 00:06:08.529 first and then listen to them, right? Back to 00:06:08.529 --> 00:06:10.569 the whole listening thing, listen to their feedback. 00:06:11.750 --> 00:06:14.889 That's uncomfortable. That part right there is 00:06:14.889 --> 00:06:19.769 uncomfortable. It really is. That part you just 00:06:19.769 --> 00:06:22.250 said is so uncomfortable to listen what they 00:06:22.250 --> 00:06:27.189 say and take it and kind of move along with it. 00:06:27.310 --> 00:06:30.550 Okay, let me use that. kind of make it better 00:06:30.550 --> 00:06:34.329 or maybe use it later on to update the book or 00:06:34.329 --> 00:06:36.970 something, you know, but that part there for 00:06:36.970 --> 00:06:41.129 writer is so. You know, I feel like the one thing 00:06:41.129 --> 00:06:43.949 I tell my students or I've told my students in 00:06:43.949 --> 00:06:47.269 the past is that, you know, each each piece of 00:06:47.269 --> 00:06:49.230 writing is just like every person. You know, 00:06:49.230 --> 00:06:53.230 it has inherent worth, but it has infinite potential. 00:06:53.490 --> 00:06:56.449 You know, some teenagers like, no, I don't. I 00:06:56.449 --> 00:06:58.610 wrote it as perfect as is. It doesn't. It's like. 00:07:00.180 --> 00:07:03.040 It has worth. It is worth it. It is inherently 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:05.720 worth it, but it has infinite potential for you 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:08.579 to improve it as much as you can. I mean, yeah, 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:11.300 it's true. I forgot what critic and that's true 00:07:11.300 --> 00:07:13.000 for all writing. You know, there was a critic 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:15.939 who said there is a critic who said there isn't 00:07:15.939 --> 00:07:19.180 one young person in this planet that could improve 00:07:19.180 --> 00:07:22.259 a Shakespeare line or two. You know, like Shakespeare 00:07:22.259 --> 00:07:25.399 stuff, it could be improved. You know, you could 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:28.500 absolutely almost everything, though, because 00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:31.519 you know nothing is outside of growing if you 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:34.600 don't allow it to expand and it's nothing's outside 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:37.759 of that everything expands everything everything 00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:40.399 it has the propensity to expand that's really 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:43.959 cool i know that um you know i don't know if 00:07:43.959 --> 00:07:45.879 you experienced where you are but they're kind 00:07:45.879 --> 00:07:48.600 of taking some writings out of schools and things 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:52.660 like that right and i know that a lot of it is 00:07:52.660 --> 00:07:57.220 honesty you know, the books that inspire honesty, 00:07:57.240 --> 00:08:01.319 you know, to celebrate culture and those truths 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:03.800 and those things like that. What do you believe 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:08.000 is crippling the pursuit of honesty for us as 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:12.300 writers? Oh my gosh, that's so good. Yeah, I 00:08:12.300 --> 00:08:16.000 mean, luckily I'm in Seattle, and so it's a great... 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:21.060 But you know, we're, I mean, we're, you know, 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:24.959 we're like a center right of... of Castro, you 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:27.660 know, we're very liberal. And so we don't have 00:08:27.660 --> 00:08:30.000 any of that going on, thankfully. But yeah, I 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:31.819 hear about it and it breaks my heart because 00:08:31.819 --> 00:08:36.480 you read to expand your consciousness. You write 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:39.440 to expand your consciousness. And if you're not 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.080 doing that, why are you reading? Why are you 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:45.580 writing? You know, I mean, I took a risk and 00:08:45.580 --> 00:08:48.460 I had a character who's Native American and that 00:08:48.460 --> 00:08:51.289 process, you know, was about a... 10, 12 year 00:08:51.289 --> 00:08:54.090 period of expanding my consciousness to be able 00:08:54.090 --> 00:08:57.149 to write as a Native American person, you know, 00:08:57.149 --> 00:09:00.769 as I'm a white body person. And so, yeah, I think 00:09:00.769 --> 00:09:03.570 that that's, and what was your question originally? 00:09:06.910 --> 00:09:10.889 I love it, I love it. I said, you know, we're 00:09:10.889 --> 00:09:12.970 talking about, you know, what's actually crippling 00:09:12.970 --> 00:09:15.289 the pursuit of honesty for writers. Yeah, what's 00:09:15.289 --> 00:09:17.409 crippling the pursuit of honesty? Yeah, I think 00:09:17.409 --> 00:09:21.990 it's, I think it's power. I think it's, when 00:09:21.990 --> 00:09:25.769 we as writers are, you know, we're wanting clicks, 00:09:25.970 --> 00:09:27.990 we're wanting likes, we're wanting followers, 00:09:28.149 --> 00:09:33.029 we're wanting, you know, there's a kind of, you 00:09:33.029 --> 00:09:37.169 know, we need to... We need to stray from certain 00:09:37.169 --> 00:09:39.889 truths about ourselves, about the world, about 00:09:39.889 --> 00:09:42.610 our neighbors. And there's a kind of power that 00:09:42.610 --> 00:09:45.470 comes with that. What if are people going to 00:09:45.470 --> 00:09:51.929 click or like or read me if I'm nuanced? And 00:09:51.929 --> 00:09:57.750 so yeah, I think power. That's so good. I know 00:09:57.750 --> 00:09:59.950 when I was writing, and I write about a lot of 00:09:59.950 --> 00:10:01.990 trauma and things like that, you know, in my 00:10:01.990 --> 00:10:04.629 own life, you know, and then kind of dissect 00:10:04.629 --> 00:10:06.750 it with the generational trauma and things like 00:10:06.750 --> 00:10:10.549 that, habits and all that great stuff. It's wanting 00:10:10.549 --> 00:10:13.750 to be accepted in the commercial world because 00:10:13.750 --> 00:10:15.830 we don't talk about those things in those commercial 00:10:15.830 --> 00:10:18.590 worlds to sell your book. Those things are like 00:10:18.590 --> 00:10:21.269 taboo, you know, and talking like the things 00:10:21.269 --> 00:10:25.149 that you write about as well. They're not in 00:10:25.149 --> 00:10:27.970 the mainstream of, you know, a publisher coming 00:10:27.970 --> 00:10:31.710 and grabbing you, you know? And I think we miss 00:10:31.710 --> 00:10:35.669 the good work of people when they are writing 00:10:35.669 --> 00:10:39.309 to be commercial, like you said. That's what 00:10:39.309 --> 00:10:41.950 I'm thinking it is. To be in the mainstream, 00:10:42.149 --> 00:10:44.269 it's not really that great. It's like hollow 00:10:44.269 --> 00:10:46.830 words, you know? And there goes the honesty. 00:10:47.330 --> 00:10:54.269 Honesty is gone. Yes. And I am so thankful of 00:10:54.269 --> 00:10:56.950 the writers that do go there. Yeah, and that 00:10:56.950 --> 00:10:59.529 do make it commercial. Yeah, you know, I mean, 00:10:59.750 --> 00:11:05.110 Toni Morrison has someone has taken up her mantle. 00:11:05.450 --> 00:11:08.490 And it's the author of I just read it. It's called 00:11:08.490 --> 00:11:12.370 Let Us Send novel by the same person who wrote 00:11:12.370 --> 00:11:15.889 The Men We Reap. And she, I forgot her, I'm blanking 00:11:15.889 --> 00:11:18.029 on her name. She's from Mississippi. She's an 00:11:18.029 --> 00:11:21.610 African -American professor. And she goes there. 00:11:21.610 --> 00:11:23.850 She goes to the trauma. She goes to, you know, 00:11:23.990 --> 00:11:28.830 racial and gender. And she enacts it out in her 00:11:28.830 --> 00:11:31.250 work in a way that's very lyrical, very symbolic. 00:11:31.309 --> 00:11:34.269 And it's really reminiscent of Morrison's, I 00:11:34.269 --> 00:11:37.070 think, greatest work. So it's really cool when 00:11:37.070 --> 00:11:40.250 you come across writing that is commercial, but 00:11:40.250 --> 00:11:44.769 is still doing that work. Yeah. Yeah. And I applaud 00:11:44.769 --> 00:11:48.730 those, those publishers who do, you know, allow 00:11:48.730 --> 00:11:51.269 me - Jesmyn Ward. Jesmyn Ward's the name. Yes. 00:11:51.269 --> 00:11:53.629 Yes. I applaud them. So let's, I want to flip 00:11:53.629 --> 00:11:55.509 the script now to talk about your book, because 00:11:55.509 --> 00:11:57.129 we only got a few minutes, and your new book 00:11:57.129 --> 00:12:00.169 that Whistle Punk Falls. Let's talk about that. 00:12:00.710 --> 00:12:03.250 Tell me how that came about and, you know, give 00:12:03.250 --> 00:12:05.350 us some little insights on that new book there. 00:12:05.909 --> 00:12:09.429 Yeah. So I, this is inspired by my high school 00:12:09.429 --> 00:12:14.289 experience. Some, I, I had a very tight friend 00:12:14.289 --> 00:12:16.610 group and we saw a couple people in our friend 00:12:16.610 --> 00:12:20.169 group experience some intense mental health situations, 00:12:20.190 --> 00:12:23.169 and they didn't get the care they needed. And 00:12:23.169 --> 00:12:26.110 so that, you know, and they, they hurt others, 00:12:26.129 --> 00:12:28.289 they hurt themselves, they were disfigured in 00:12:28.289 --> 00:12:30.669 this process of trying to handle their mental 00:12:30.669 --> 00:12:35.309 health challenges alone. And so that, you know, 00:12:35.409 --> 00:12:38.070 put me on an odyssey of studying psychology, 00:12:39.070 --> 00:12:41.350 getting my bachelor's degree in psychology and 00:12:41.350 --> 00:12:43.750 creative writing. and working with teenagers 00:12:43.750 --> 00:12:47.389 and trying to step into those spaces where people 00:12:47.389 --> 00:12:50.429 who are having mental health challenges, I wrote 00:12:50.429 --> 00:12:53.269 poetry with people who were incarcerated and 00:12:53.269 --> 00:12:55.289 who were in mental health treatment centers and 00:12:55.289 --> 00:12:58.730 so forth, trying to step in and share space with 00:12:58.730 --> 00:13:03.179 them and facilitate them making art. uh so as 00:13:03.179 --> 00:13:06.600 a way of one disrupting the isolation but also 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:09.480 you know guiding them on a path of healing right 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:13.019 uh and so the book came about through a lot of 00:13:13.019 --> 00:13:14.940 that work and through a lot of that experience 00:13:14.940 --> 00:13:19.080 i started writing the book in 2012 and i completed 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:22.519 the first draft in 2017 okay and then through 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:25.679 about 12 uh revisions uh got it to the point 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:27.200 where i was ready for a publisher to publish 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:31.129 it And yeah, I'm so grateful they did. Oh, great. 00:13:31.570 --> 00:13:35.850 What's one piece within that whole story that 00:13:35.850 --> 00:13:41.629 you love? I love the fact that I love how the 00:13:41.629 --> 00:13:46.549 last twist came about. I needed the son, the 00:13:46.549 --> 00:13:49.389 main character, his name is Malachi Loud McCrally, 00:13:49.750 --> 00:13:53.929 and he's Native American. And I needed to add 00:13:53.929 --> 00:13:56.509 a twist in there to make the plot. better you 00:13:56.509 --> 00:13:58.690 know that the novel needs to be lyrical but the 00:13:58.690 --> 00:14:02.289 novel also needs plot it is uh it is it is artifice 00:14:02.289 --> 00:14:05.250 and uh so i loved how the twist came about it 00:14:05.250 --> 00:14:07.809 was the last thing i thought of i was in a very 00:14:07.809 --> 00:14:11.029 low place with the book um i wasn't sure you 00:14:11.029 --> 00:14:13.029 know i was getting rejected a lot and i wasn't 00:14:13.029 --> 00:14:15.669 sure where it should go and i turned to loud's 00:14:15.669 --> 00:14:18.429 mother the mother figure and she hadn't she didn't 00:14:18.429 --> 00:14:20.389 have too much screen time and so i thought of 00:14:20.389 --> 00:14:23.120 a twist involving her that could give her more 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:26.519 agency and more of a spotlight. And the book 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:29.299 is actually dedicated to my mother. And the book, 00:14:29.460 --> 00:14:32.080 even though it's very boy heavy, it's actually 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:34.259 a book about mothers and sons that it's hard. 00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:37.759 And so I love that I found that, that I discovered 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:40.879 it or I was granted it from above or wherever. 00:14:42.100 --> 00:14:46.759 It's a much better book. with having some of 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:50.299 the character's mom in it more and having her 00:14:50.299 --> 00:14:55.120 relate to that final twist. Yeah. And how difficult 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:59.200 or what was a challenge bringing, you know, one 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:02.860 side, which was like, as I hear, history that 00:15:02.860 --> 00:15:06.159 you didn't know, you know, and in cultures maybe 00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:08.860 you didn't know, to bring it into the true side 00:15:08.860 --> 00:15:12.139 with what you do know, like the real part of 00:15:12.139 --> 00:15:15.820 you. Yeah, that's right. Because I did have clients 00:15:15.820 --> 00:15:18.480 and I did have students who were Native American 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:21.659 and I did, you know, interact with them and have 00:15:21.659 --> 00:15:23.539 relationships with them. So I knew that side, 00:15:23.539 --> 00:15:25.799 but I didn't know that some of the other sides, 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:27.379 like you mentioned, the history and culture and 00:15:27.379 --> 00:15:29.419 all that. So yeah, it's just getting out there. 00:15:29.500 --> 00:15:31.940 You know, I drove to the characters are of the 00:15:31.940 --> 00:15:35.179 Makah tribe. They've become estranged from the 00:15:35.179 --> 00:15:36.820 tribe, though. But it was still important for 00:15:36.820 --> 00:15:40.600 me to read, to go out there to form some relationships. 00:15:41.549 --> 00:15:45.850 I went on a tour. I learned and I did an interview 00:15:45.850 --> 00:15:49.830 with one of the tribal members. And I also it 00:15:49.830 --> 00:15:52.610 was I also shared my novel with a Native American 00:15:52.610 --> 00:15:54.730 novelist buddy of mine. His name is Dennis Staples. 00:15:54.750 --> 00:15:57.830 He read it. That was really good. And I took 00:15:57.830 --> 00:15:59.750 some feedback from him. Again, I had to listen 00:15:59.750 --> 00:16:02.649 to some things I got wrong and I had to revise 00:16:02.649 --> 00:16:05.830 again. And so, yeah, that was all a process of 00:16:05.830 --> 00:16:11.519 sharing and exploring and and taking sharing 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:15.379 space with and listening to stories. David Bowles 00:16:15.379 --> 00:16:18.960 says that we should, if you're gonna write about 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:20.840 someone who's not in your community, we should 00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:24.460 hold their babies. And what I think he means, 00:16:24.779 --> 00:16:28.919 but how I enacted that out was by holding their 00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:31.220 stories, holding the stories of Native American 00:16:31.220 --> 00:16:33.870 people. And I read so many amazing throughout 00:16:33.870 --> 00:16:36.389 this process. I read so many amazing works by 00:16:36.389 --> 00:16:38.309 Native American authors that I was compelled 00:16:38.309 --> 00:16:40.590 to write reviews of them. And I got a number 00:16:40.590 --> 00:16:43.649 of the reviews published, which I was proud of. 00:16:43.990 --> 00:16:45.970 And so that was part of the process, too, of 00:16:45.970 --> 00:16:49.950 holding their stories. That's beautiful. You 00:16:49.950 --> 00:16:52.750 have given us, you know, me some new insight. 00:16:52.870 --> 00:16:56.409 And I'm so excited to read this new book. I'm 00:16:56.409 --> 00:16:59.409 really. I'm really excited to get a hold to this 00:16:59.409 --> 00:17:01.990 book. So audience, you should get a hold to this 00:17:01.990 --> 00:17:06.089 book because I believe that Sean has really dropped 00:17:06.089 --> 00:17:09.869 some gems here about publishing, book publishing. 00:17:10.069 --> 00:17:12.690 I like it, I like it, and I know you love it. 00:17:12.990 --> 00:17:15.630 So I'm not gonna hold them too long, but I want 00:17:15.630 --> 00:17:18.609 one last thing I want from you Sean. If you could 00:17:18.609 --> 00:17:23.029 write a single uncompromising sentence, just 00:17:23.029 --> 00:17:26.700 one. that would be carved into every public square 00:17:26.700 --> 00:17:32.319 in the world and serve a true purpose, what would 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:38.319 it be? That is a really good question. Oh man, 00:17:38.339 --> 00:17:44.460 you're making me work for it today. To work and 00:17:44.460 --> 00:17:47.220 to love. Oh, that's good. To work and to love. 00:17:47.380 --> 00:17:50.119 And I'm cribbing off Sigmund Freud here. It was 00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:54.440 attributed to him, I always say. quote my betters 00:17:54.440 --> 00:17:57.539 but yeah he said that the main thing about mental 00:17:57.539 --> 00:17:59.799 health and the whole field of psychology that 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:02.819 he more or less founded is uh you know to work 00:18:02.819 --> 00:18:05.660 and to love if you can if you can find some work 00:18:05.660 --> 00:18:08.680 that pays you some money and you can love somebody 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:12.599 uh that's you you've got it made you know and 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:16.059 so often when people are lost or people are having 00:18:16.059 --> 00:18:19.759 difficulty in life, it's because they're challenged 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:22.960 in their work or they're challenged in love. 00:18:23.539 --> 00:18:26.019 And so I think if you can find good work and 00:18:26.019 --> 00:18:29.720 you can find somebody to love, you're in Clover. 00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:34.660 Yes. Well, I want you to know that that last 00:18:34.660 --> 00:18:37.359 piece that you gave us, this was for me first. 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:41.289 I really appreciate that. you know, honored my 00:18:41.289 --> 00:18:43.690 heart and it just clung to it, so it was really 00:18:43.690 --> 00:18:46.309 great. Sean, this was absolutely illuminating. 00:18:46.549 --> 00:18:50.130 Your insights on purpose, truth, and the necessary 00:18:50.130 --> 00:18:55.049 discomforts of truth and real writing are exactly 00:18:55.049 --> 00:18:58.009 what this podcast is about. Thank you for sharing 00:18:58.009 --> 00:19:00.990 your experience. We hope to read your book real 00:19:00.990 --> 00:19:05.079 soon. read the one, the collection, right? The 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:07.339 Wild Familiar and then the new novel, right? 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:09.599 Whistle Poem Falls. That's right. This is the 00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:11.960 new novel. This is my third book. And yeah, there's 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:14.079 a poetry collection too. But yeah, and then let's 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:16.839 do a book swap. Yes, let's do it. Let's do it. 00:19:17.829 --> 00:19:21.190 Book swap. I'm on it. I'm on it. And guys, you 00:19:21.190 --> 00:19:23.589 know, I'll tell you all about it. And remember 00:19:23.589 --> 00:19:26.089 to look for Sean's book. Once I get his book, 00:19:26.230 --> 00:19:28.049 he's going to be on my Roku channel. So I'll 00:19:28.049 --> 00:19:30.130 tell you all about it. He won't even know nothing 00:19:30.130 --> 00:19:32.809 about it. Don't worry. Don't worry. I'm just 00:19:32.809 --> 00:19:36.210 along for the ride. All right. So audience, thank 00:19:36.210 --> 00:19:38.230 you so much for being here. Remember to really, 00:19:38.230 --> 00:19:41.009 really, really keep it real. Thanks so much and 00:19:41.009 --> 00:19:46.990 bye for now. 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