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redcircle .com for a free trial. Hi, everybody.
This is Matt from the School of Fiction Channel,
and this is our second multi -author forum. Our
topic for today is imposter syndrome for fiction
writers. And with us today, we have our expert,
Long Island's most ethical entrepreneur and a
motivational coach, Edna J. White. And then we
also have with us Jennifer Jackson Lewis, who's
going to start us off, who has several books
to her credit, several YA books to her credit.
And then joining us as well is E. Waite, who
has been a guest on this channel before, who
has written a lot of novels and is a dialogue
expert from Houston. Then we have my author bestie
Misty Parker, currently living in Kentucky, who
is a multi -genre romance author. And J .M. Chaley
just released his third vampire novel about Lisa
Cooper, one of the most fascinating vampire characters
in quite a long time. And we are looking forward
to getting into this very difficult and complex
topic. So I'm going to throw it to Jennifer to
get us started. Take it away. OK. Great. Thank
you. Well, imposter syndrome is considered a
psychological phenomenon. It is the persistent
belief that you are a fraud and that your previous
successes are just flukes or from luck and that
others will discover you're not as talented or
as accomplished as they thought. So in a nutshell,
you will be discovered as an imposter. So it's
kind of a form of paranoia and it is considered
considered causally related to a performance
anxiety like public speaking. And so those who
suffer from, you know, from this syndrome, they
tend to procrastinate. They can become perfectionists
so they cannot finish because they're, you know,
obsessing about every detail or they get into
avoidant behavior where they're avoiding their
work or they even develop a block against it.
And so this type of anxiety can become very pervasive
and bleed into other parts of their life. their
lives affecting their relationships with others
and of course their work. Now as it relates to
writing imposter syndrome can stem from really
the subjective nature of an author's work because
there is no objective standard against which
to measure. And also many suffer something called
a highlight. effect because they're viewing like
other authors final polished words and then that
gives them this false sense that others do not
have to struggle and it just comes easy to everyone
but that now I personally have not experienced
this as an author perhaps because I'm just starting
to put my work out and I haven't had great success
so far but I have experienced this as a math
professor and when I tell people I teach math
they just assume I know everything there is to
know about math, which is impossible. And so
I'm always thinking that people are gonna be
like, oh my God, you don't know that thing. And
I have had people try to challenge and question
me about certain things about math. So that is
kind of, you know, a similar fear. But when I
thought about this topic as it relates to our
writing and fiction writing the first thing that
came to mind I'm not sure if you all are familiar
with the character Hank Moody on the show California
Cation played by David Duchovny and he starts
off the show living on the royalties from his
great success and Throughout the show he can
never he feels he can never match what he previously
did and it just destroys his whole life. And
that's like a lot of what the show is about.
So when I heard about this topic, that was like
the very first thing I thought about was that
character and his struggle is a very good, you
know, example of that in pop culture. So this
evening, we are going to hear from an expert
on imposter syndrome, as well as our esteemed
panel. Our expert is Edna J. White. She is an
author, a motivational speaker and life and business
coach and she helps those 40 and up step into
their next chapter with clarity confidence and
purpose she guides them through something called
the bishop stage where their life wisdom turns
into impact income and inner liberation she cuts
through cultural conditioning religious programming
and old survival patterns so people stop shrinking
and start leading their lives on purpose and
so she has a lot to tell us on the subject, and
so I'm going to hand it over to you, Edna, to
get us started with our discussion. Oh goodness,
let me just tell you, I think when you said that
about, you know, your writing, I was like, oh
my goodness. I know imposter syndrome hits me
other ways, but writing was a trick, you know.
I think there's so many things that with authors
that we go through. One being that I'm not a
real writer. Like, have you ever felt that? I'm
not a real writer. You know, the first thing
you ever wrote is like, oh, this doesn't look
great. You know, you try to hide it. And that's
one thing that you kind of like, you know, start
to feel. And it's rough because when you first
start writing, you're not doing it through as
the way they want you to, like a publisher paying
you, you're doing it through independently or,
you know, publishing it print on demand. And
that's like one of the hardest things, you know,
like this is not good. It's not selling because
it's not good. And, you know, I've gone through
that. I think I've written about 150 ebooks and
I never published them. And I was like, oh, these
are not good enough. These are not good enough.
And I've been through that, and just putting
out the ones that I have put out, I went through
the same thing. This is not real writing. But
it's a lie. It's a lie. Like you said, it's subjective.
And believe it or not, now that I'm trying to
put out the 150, I have interns that kind of
do the work. They do the work for me. And I said,
oh, this is so good. This is so good. And I forgot
about it. I wrote it. You can forget those things.
You already forget. And I was like, oh, I wrote
that? Yeah. Yeah, you wrote it. And I was like,
oh, OK. But we go through those things. There's
a lot. There's a gamut of things that we go through.
Success. And you know how to see people say best
seller. For years, I didn't want to say that
about my book. My book was one of my books that
called Women Right Now, a publisher paid me to
write or put together, should I say curate. And
it was a bestseller, and I want to tell you,
for one week. And I didn't know if I was supposed
to say bestseller forever or minimize and say
bestseller for one week. I didn't want to be
a liar, but I kind of, it was the imposter syndrome
saying, That's not true. When you're a bestseller,
you're a bestseller. And it was somebody in the
book industry had told me, would you stop that?
You know, it was a bestseller for two weeks.
You know, on Amazon for the first two weeks,
bestseller. And I was like, okay. You know, but
it took a lot to kind of say that, you know.
We go through those things, especially if you're
writing about something personal, too. you know
that that that's you know fiction and non -fiction
probably get away because everybody i love vampires
by the way um j .m i love it love them and i
you know that's easy because that i think because
it's adventurous it's but when you talk about
yourself and you talk about something that's
like personal or you know giving you your story
and or sharing a part of your story it's like
oh man They're not gonna read this. And when
I put out my first book stuff, the stuff that
no one told us about living as an adult after
childhood sexual abuse, I didn't think anybody
was gonna like it. Woke up one day and I sold
10 ,000 e -books to Germany. So it can be done.
You don't know, you've got to put it out there
because you don't know, you know, and it showed
me that every book doesn't go the same, have
the same route, you know? So imposter syndrome
stops us and keeps us stuck as writers from not
sharing because even, I've heard even writers
say a lot about You know how you first put your
manuscript out, I got to give it to somebody,
so you got to give it to close friends. They
don't want to even do that because, oh God, they're
going to probably give me some bad feedback.
I know some writers that do not want to hear
feedback about their book. But I was like, I
need to hear what's wrong with it. So I would
give it to everybody. What's wrong with it? Tell
me what's wrong with it. Because the publisher
is going to rip it to shreds. Let me just tell
you, I've had that happen to me already. They'll
rip it to shreds like, no, I wanted to say that.
I really want to say that. And they have their
own ideas. But imposter syndrome will stop us
from doing just the simplest things. We're getting
our manuscript out there. The comparison trap
that you talked about in the beginning. Right?
You see all the major, you know, the major players,
the best sellers with the, you know, one million
copies and all of that. You're like, my writing
will never get up there. Never get up there.
Let me just tell you, one person, and you know,
like they say, Oprah has the golden touch. One
person can read it and it spreads like wildfire.
You know, you never know, but. imposter syndrome
keeps us in that comparison trail that we constantly
measure ourselves against another author. I'm
glad that Matt's having this discussion because
authors refuse to work with one another sometimes
because of comparison, or productivity, or sales.
And that's a whole nother avenue, sales. But
even on platforms like this, comparison, you
know, you feel funny sometimes, you know, like,
I don't want to say anything to hurt the next
person or, you know, maybe they're like, JM is
writing nonfiction and I don't want to say anything
that could hurt like him. But you know, we all
have an experience and imposter syndrome kind
of keeps us from having those those critical
conversations, because everything I believe even
nonfiction has a Just a little bit of fiction.
Just a little bit, you know? Another thing I
think, the myth of the perfect draft. Have you
ever had that? It's like you're writing it. And
you just keep, well, I know that when I first
started writing, I never used a pencil, so I
wouldn't, because I was always erasing. So I
used to use a pen and I just kept going and going
until, you know, until it was all written, then
go back to it. But, you know, just to, it's got
to be clean, kind of perfect. That manuscript
can't be messy. You can't pass, I've passed plenty
of messy. manuscripts to people to read, you
know? Crumpled papers, maybe with some butter
on it from a bagel or something. Really, seriously,
it's like everything has got to be perfect. It's
just a draft. It's not the final thing that goes
out to the public. So we have those things, those
things that we kind of... perfect copy. There's
no, there's no perfect copy because I've even
seen mistakes with great, with great writers,
you know, and like, oh, that's spelled wrong
there. You know, somebody missed it, but it's
spelled wrong there, you know? So there's no
perfect, perfect draft. I teached a great Gatsby
and there's a scene at the beginning of chapter
two where he says, he's talking about a billboard.
with some glasses on it. And it says that the
eyes, the retinas are one yard wide. And they
didn't change it, even though the retinas are
inside the irises, because they thought he was
so great that they didn't want to mess with his
stuff. Actually, this is, you know, the top five
authors in American history. And he made a ridiculous
mistake. It's been reprinted for the last hundred
years. See? That's perfect. That's a perfect
example. Yeah. So yeah, everything is going to
have to be that perfect. Should I keep going?
Yeah. Okay. Let me see. Did I say fear and visibility?
The deeper the story, the more personal the writing
is. And then imposter central whispers, are you
telling the story right? Is it the right way?
Because I know when I was writing my story, I
was like, I got to make sure that I remember
it right. And if you know anything about survivors
of childhood or childhood sexual abuse or any
type of trauma, you remember it in bits and pieces.
So I kind of, you know, think of it as someone
hitting a mirror with their fist and the pieces
are broken. You can see the face, but it's all
distorted. So you see things different, you know,
you see things in pieces, right? So it's like,
is this really going to go somewhere? And I remember
when I first put it, put my book out and I was
on the, I think I was on, What's his name? Al
Cole. And he was on either ABC or NBC, one of
them two. And this girl heard it and she actually
emailed me and said, I just bought your book.
And I said, okay, I hope you enjoy it. If you
have any questions, get back to me. And she called
me back and she was in like a really, really
bad situation where she was in a situation with
her dad and she didn't know how to leave. or
did not you know she didn't know how to even
separate from it and she said your book helped
me so much and when she called me back when she
emailed me back she said I moved out with my
aunt and she was able to move you know move away
so you never know the fear of visibility I always
like like whispered to my book wherever you need
to go go you know and of course I have a plan
for each book you know so you know um But, you
know, the fear of visibility is always like our
story. It might not be something that somebody
wants, you know? Another one is research overload,
I think. Research overload. I have a friend like
that. I have a friend that we were going to write
this book together, right? All three of us. And
she goes, okay, I got to get all my research
right. I got to get my research right. And we
have not written that book yet. Because she's
still researching and life started getting in
the way, right? Research, we go crazy sometimes
to over search because we're afraid to be called
out on something. We don't know enough. Let me
just tell you, that's why they have like, what's
the word when you update your book, when you
have the first edition, you have a second edition,
right? Right. So that's the thing. So, you know,
we have to look at that and say, hey, that's
great. If I'm limited in research on this, I
can always update it later, because every book
grows, really. I mean, if you have one book,
you can actually expand it later on. So we forget
those things, especially around nonfiction, you
know, especially around nonfiction. Genre shame.
You had that one? Have you ever had that one?
Shame and genre? Like, you're not really a self
-help writer. You're not really a fan of fiction,
you know? So yeah, imposter syndrome kind of
like fuels that literary, you know, part of you.
Like, oh, I don't know if I fit in this genre
or not, you know? And it tricks you, you know?
When I was trying to place, especially when you're
doing it independently, you're trying to place
your book, you know, with Amazon, you're trying
to like, is it, does it belong just this genre?
Does it belong to that genre? And you're trying
to place it. I say, hey, have fun with it and
just place it where it needs to go and might
just get somebody until you find your space,
you know? But it changed you from like picking
a genre. Like if you know this is going to help
somebody. You know, maybe it's a little bit,
maybe it's a little political, right? But it's
really leaning towards helping somebody in a
situation that's really personal and you're not
sure where to go. So it probably will, I don't
know enough about this. I don't know enough about
that. Hey, nothing beats a failure, but a try.
That's what I meant to me. So it's good to do,
you know, try to do that. not be afraid because
imposter syndrome will trick you, for real. Equivalent
in fiction would be, no one's going to read it
because I'm not writing to market. Oh yeah, that's
a trick. It's a big trick. It's a big trick.
Or I hear, I wrote this book for my mom. I wrote
this book for my mom and I'm like, but you published
it. So it's got to go bigger than that. There's
a reason why it comes out of you is to be published
and shared. Yes, maybe your mom was the light
for it, but it's probably, you know, bigger than
that. I worked with somebody who was from Trinidad
and he wrote this beautiful collection of poetry.
we're working on it, and he says, oh, I just
wrote it for my mom. I said, well, no, I think
it's bigger than that because it's sparking something
in me. And so he literally put it together. I
think he set it to music and he got someone with
this beautiful guitar music to it, and he won
an amazing award. He keeps winning awards on
this one book of poetry, which is amazing. But
he didn't know what genre it was supposed to
be in. He was like, I don't know, it's my mother.
I was like, yeah, it's your mother, but I think
it's bigger than that. When you write, when you're
creative, it's bigger than that and that you
know imposter syndrome comes to kind of take
you away and out of that out of that place you
know that it's bigger your writings are bigger
than you you know that they're supposed to be
in this world yes there's probably millions and
gazillions i don't know how many but of books
but all of them reach everyone think of it like
blood going through the veins of your body you
know each each one of us have a job to like a
sell And that's what writing is. I think it is
anyway, because I love writing. Right. So just
fear of judgment that stops you. You know, I
know someone who got 80 % through their manuscript,
80 % and got afraid because they thought someone
gave them a critique and they didn't like it.
And they're like, I'm not finishing it. And they
didn't finish it. And I was like, this could
have been your best seller. But just being fear
of being judged stops you from finishing things.
And imposter syndrome does that. It'll stop you.
Should I keep going? Let's throw it out to tell
stories and asking some questions in any way.
OK. Well, one thing I just you know mentioned
when you were talking I was thinking about is
like I have developed this strange aversion to
the bookstore and the library because like I
love reading but when I go and I'm like, alright,
here's all my competition like Okay, you know
and like I like to look and I like to see what's
out there But at the same time then I'm like,
all right, my idea is not as exciting My idea
is not as this and then like also about genre
like I write in several genres Like I do a lot
of sci -fi. I have a lot of psychological thriller,
but like I think you know I touch a lot of genres
So that's kind of like, you know, am I supposed
to be doing something more or different than
I? Right about or doing it and then just like
your friend. I'm like, alright, maybe I should
scrap all of my 80 % And just like start over
with a new concept And so sometimes right I have
that temptation to quit what I'm doing because
I asked yeah It's not right. So I hear you on
that And I'll go into the bookstore and I'll
be like, I haven't kept up. I don't know who
these people are. They don't know exactly what's
going on. They're all writing to market. They're
all, and I'm just like by myself and I'm not
doing my homework. And, you know. You're never
going to catch up to as many writers there are.
Forget it. It just, I stopped doing it. I stopped
looking. And if somebody mentions the book to
me, I'll be like, oh, okay, I'll pick that up
and check it out. And I'll go on Amazon and check
it out. Yeah. but I'm you're never going to catch
up yeah that's I feel the same way like you're
supposed to be well read but then when I read
other stuff I just want to go write my own like
it inspires me too much so that's that's what
it's supposed to do yeah that's what it's supposed
to do It is, it's supposed to do that. For my
podcast, I at least get about three or four books
a week. And I have to read them before, you know,
two weeks in before I meet my guests. So I'm
always reading. And that doesn't, you know, it
doesn't come to my thoughts. Oh, that's, I should
be writing like that. The only thing that comes
to my thoughts now is, oh, I love this font.
I gotta use it. you know and that's the only
thing that comes to my mind is that but all of
it's good but you know you you gain more insight
to different things you know um to expand even
on your own your own stories your own you know
you know um work i do appreciate a good font
so yes yes girl yes for sure uh you were talking
about um genre shame and you know i've been writing
romance for many years now. And so yeah, just
the number of times I've gotten, you know, poo
-pooed for writing romances. I can't really count
the number of times, you know, when you go to
different book fairs and stuff and, you know,
you hear the little remarks and all this stuff.
It's, and then it makes you like wonder if you're
just not, you know, writing. good enough, your
writing's not intelligent, your writing, it's
just whatever, but I mean, romance is the best
selling genre of all time, but. Yeah, absolutely.
You gotta talk to yourself differently because
what it does, what you might not, you might be
in the wrong place. Cause for me, I used to go
to all these book fairs, right? You sit there
and it's like, you know, Everybody's just sitting
in. I would be walking around, hey, what's your
book about? And I never manned my station because
I'm so nosy. What's your book about? And I'm
having these big old conversations, right? I
just kind of figured, I'm not going to sell anything.
Not that I thought that I wasn't. It was like,
it's not the place to do it. Do you know what
I mean? Some places are not. And like I said,
you got to whisper to your book, where do you
need to go? And like, you know, and that's what
I do with all my books have a different goal.
It's like a business plan. Each one of them have
different place to go. It's not like they all
stay in one, like one genre. No, they all go
different places. So, um, you know, just don't,
don't get discouraged. You might be in the wrong
place. That's all. Um, you know, think, think
outside the box. I'm gonna tell you, um, I did,
um, with one of my books, I did a, um, not a
presentation, but I did a pitch, I'm sorry, to
Sleepies. And I said, you know, talking to the
manager, I said, hey, I like your, you know,
I wasn't shopping for a bit. I was like, I wonder
if I go in there. I talked to this guy and I
get a book, you know, I wanted to do something
out of the box, you know? And I went, and I said,
hey, this is a great showroom, you know? And
I was like, I wonder if you would, you know,
partner with me and do a book signing. He was
like. a book signing, what do you mean? I said,
you never heard of go to bed with a good book.
He was like, what? So I did a book signing and
invited all my friends, invited everybody there.
And they were like, this is the best thing ever.
There were new people coming in. They show their
showroom. And you just gotta think outside the
box. Where would you want this book to be? I
did something for the hotels. So I had one of
my books that was called Move Higher in Your
Purpose. And I did something with the Hilton
hotels. And it was just by accident happened.
And I had the book with me. And one of them said,
oh, that's your book? I said, yeah, yeah. And
so then the manager must have came out for something.
And she goes, what are you doing? I said, oh,
we have a conference in here, blah, blah, blah.
How would you like to have one of these books
in every room? Try me out for one month. Just
give me one month. I'll give you 100 books. Just
go to any hotel. I'll give you 100 books. I got
rid of 100 books. So I could truly say that I
got rid of 100 books. a reference or a recommendation
from the hotel and I had a picture with them.
That was the best promotion I ever could have
done. And I was just with one hotel. I don't
have to do like a couple. Just think outside
the box for yourself. Wherever you, you know,
your book has to have that goal, you know, and
I look at every book as a goal. I have, I'm about
to write my 32nd and I look at every book with
a different goal. Every book, every book has
a different goal. I like your name, by the way,
Misty. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I still struggle
with just like approaching people for those out
of the box kind of things. So yeah. Am I good
enough for that? They're going to say no. I just
know they're going to say no. Oh, no, don't say
that. They might just say yes. The worst thing
they could do is say no, right? No, the best
thing they could do is say no, because I got
turned down by... I pitched Billy Graham's library.
Everybody knows that library, right? Everybody
knows that. They need to go to Charlotte all
the time, yeah. Yes, okay. I pitched him, right?
I always go for the gusto, and I get the gusto
nos. But when I got the no from, it's in writing,
I actually laminated that no. I laminated it.
Okay? From Billy Graham's library, I got a no.
And you know what? That kept me going for years.
This no is just another stepping stone for my
next yes. And if I got a no from him, that, you
know, okay, I'm not gonna mess with that anymore.
He's gonna come to me now. So I laminated that
and that's my motivation that, you know, your
next, that no is just my stepping stone to my
next yes. That's all it is. Yeah, that's good.
I don't know if I was still on. No, I've done
some things, Misty. I was saying, like, I was
really afraid to, but I was actually surprised
at, like, how receptive some people were. And
I just, like, emailed random high schools. And
I got this librarian of a high school to, like,
invite me. And I gave away a bunch of my books,
like, put my books into my readers' hands, which
are teenagers. And, like, it was just very, you
know, like, other high schools said no and they
or didn't respond. And, like, you know, And now
I'm trying to get my book into the bookstore
at Michigan Tech, which is my book is about Michigan
Tech. I would love for my book to be in their
bookstore as well as the Rock and Roll Hall of
Fame. Cause I also, my book takes place there.
So, but it's like really scary to like approach
these. Definitely the imposter syndrome, like
who am I to like call the Rock and Roll Hall
of Fame gift shop. I have one out here in Sifton,
I think it is. That's easy. That's easy. You
got that. You got that. I made one of my books
to Jim Hillahiri. Oh, okay. She donated to the
Brooklyn Library. That's great. That's great.
At least I got to stand near her. Wow. That's
pretty awesome. When I lived in China, I wrote
a children's book in Mandarin and in English.
And so all the pictures, I had a friend who was
my roomie, and she took the professional photographs
of everything around where we lived. We lived
in Jinan. And so she took pictures. And so I
knew somebody in my class who was an adult, and
he was He was from the army. So I showed him
the book and he says, Oh, I know the mayor. You
know what? They called something else in China,
but Oh, I know the mayor. And so that book stayed
in China and it's in China right now in that
particular town. Cause I wrote it wrote a book
about it. So I can do it. Now was my first out.
That was my first time doing something like that.
My first time ever. And that was 2013. You can
do that. Any, any of us can do that. you know
any office can do that you just gotta you know
put yourself out there and just trust that you're
going the right way you know yeah i think imposter
syndrome just feeds into writer's block a lot
yeah we've all spent time on the writer's block
um yeah yes i'm one for about five years now
so that's just a break it's a break it's a break
but i mean uh yeah life has gotten in the way
and it tends to do that so yeah i mean i'm really
lucky as far as i have a very great local community
of writers that I belong to that I've gotten
to know over years and we have events together
and we kind of all circulate in the same events
and stuff and that's that's cool yeah I'm really
thankful for that and I feel very supported by
them and stuff and encouraged so if I didn't
have that I think I would have probably given
up yeah that's a good good thing it's a really
good thing when I started I um I rallied with
a lot of writers, other writers that could support
me. So we all became our own cheerleaders. And
we, you know, we bought one another's books with
us. When we went somewhere, we bought, you know,
I had three other books with me that weren't
mine. You know, they were theirs. So I kind of,
you know, took the heat off. Then after that,
it was easy. But having somebody to support you,
man, that's powerful like that. It's powerful.
It really is. It is. Have you ever, um, uh, someone
ever said, Oh, this is really good. Or the cup
is really nice. Did you ever feel uncomfortable
when people say that to you? With a compliment?
Yeah. No. No, I, that, that usually, if anything,
it pulls me away from. feeling like if I'm doubting
myself and someone says this is good I'll be
like oh really you don't hate it yeah Remember
that I did an open mic like when I was first,
you know doing my in and that's the thing I've
been trying to do is open mics and this lady
come up and she was all crazy about my book and
like I just I don't know why like I did not know
how to take a compliment and Like I didn't even
tell her where to get it Like I just like still
kicking myself over that conversation because
she clearly wanted to know where to buy my book
and I just I was like isn't the cover horrible
like I don't know I just like put my book down
for no good reason just nervousness or whatever
yeah don't beat yourself up oh my goodness yeah
we all have been here but we beat ourselves up
but you know you're realizing it now and I guess
talking about it it's not gonna be that bad now
because you know we usually suffer in silence
We suffer in silence, like, oh my God. But if
you talk about it, it's like it kind of, OK,
I should be afraid of this, you know? And there's
people out there that's kind of rooting for us,
you know? I had a guy at a convention I went
to recently. And he, you know, I'm an indie author.
I've done, you know, there's a few people around
my local residents that might know, have heard
of me, whatever. There's a few people out on
the internet that know me. But this guy comes
up, and he's all excited. He's like, oh my god,
JM, you're here. And he's shaking my hand. He's
like, oh my god. And I literally had no idea
how to react to that, because he's like, my dad
has your book. And he talks about it all the
time. He's such a fan. And he's like, he wanted
me to sign a bookmark and give it to him. I'm
like, yeah, all right. You just want my, all
right. He's like I'm gonna tell my dad that you
were here and everything and I'm like Okay, yeah
And then he's all excited. He shakes my hand
again He leaves and I turn to the woman next
to me who's at this other, you know the table
next to me and I'm like I don't understand what
just happened. And I didn't believe it. So I
started asking other authors. I'm like, was there
some like really enthusiastic guy? Oh my gosh,
that was bad. Was I just conned? Was this part
of like a thing? Is there like a hidden camera
somewhere? And all the other authors were like,
no, that didn't happen to me. And I'm like, oh,
that was real. It's like, I didn't know how to
process it. Yeah. That is imposter syndrome.
Yeah, I guess it is because I've had people come
up and say, oh, I love your book. I bought your
first one. I'll buy your second one. And then
they go and they buy it. And we chit chat. And
I'm fine with that because I feel like I've had
that happen. Like the first time it happened,
I was like, oh, you know, but it's happening
more. You know, the more shows I do, this guy
was like, he was so psyched and I just didn't
know how to handle it. I have a question for
everyone also about imposter syndrome, but um
like I was a part of this critique group of kind
of a famous author and like Everyone in that
group was such a better writer than me and now
they're all like multiple published multiple
award -winning authors I got such writer's block
because I I was so intimidated. I was like five
other writers. Have you all ever like felt really
like, you know, compared yourself to others that
you knew and, you know, lost your confidence
or gotten writer's block from that? Oh, sure.
Yeah, I've been writing since like 2010 and publishing.
And, you know, I've seen people come up from
that period and from more recent times and are
there already you know multi -figure full -time
authors and here I am still struggling along
with my demanding day job and barely making anything
on my writing so you know that's that's it's
hard sometimes when you think about it like that
but At the same time, I have to tell myself,
you know what? I'm very proud of them because
a lot of them I know and I've seen how much they've
worked and how much they've worked for it and
they deserve it very much. So I just really try
to be happy for them and be encouraging and supportive
of them. You know, there's always just that little
feeling though. You're like, you know, I wish
I could wish I could do that. Maybe I'm not good
enough, you know. But would you want to hang
around somebody that's not doing the numbers
or somebody who's doing the numbers? If you want
to be a millionaire, would you hang around millionaires
or people who aren't millionaires? That's different.
That's how you look at it. I'd rather hang around
those people because they got the gusto. I want
to go where they're going. So I'm making my business
to be around. I would love to be around those
people. I wouldn't feel bad. My book is going
to be right here because I'm following you. I'm
watching you. I'm asking you. I'm picking your
brain. So that's how I feel about it. That's
kind of Anthony Robbins strategy in some ways,
isn't it? See what people are doing that's successful
and emulate that. Tony Robbins? Yes, Tony Robbins.
Oh yeah, that guy. Isn't he the guy that like
jumps into like ice water every morning or something?
I do not know if he does that. I understand why
he would, but I prefer a hot bath. Yeah, I don't
know. I've heard that he has some weird ritual
like that every morning. Really? Nope, I can
skip that. As I say so often in various contexts,
do the thing you want to do, right? That's right.
Everybody's different. Very much so. I think
one of the things that could contribute to posture
syndrome too is if you have someone, especially
if it's someone close to you, someone who matters
to you, someone whose opinion matters to you,
and you show them your work and they dump all
over it. I've had people say to me, I'm not into
vampires or this wasn't my thing. But if somebody
dear to me, and this has actually happened to
me and it hurts, it stinks. Someone just kind
of rips apart your work and it's almost the receiving
end. Well, in my case, it was almost the receiving
end of what Jennifer was talking about in which
this individual was trying to write a book. And
then I was like, oh, that sounds like fun. I'm
going to try to write a book. And then we both
kind of like started researching. We were both
reading Stephen King's on writing around the
same time and coming up through the process of
learning the craft together. And then I kind
of got my foot out there and started making money,
and he trashed everything that I was doing. So,
you know. That's jealousy. Well, he was also,
he was also trashing me on the way up too. So
before I even started making it, I think it felt
more like resentment. kind of like more, why
are you here and not me? Exactly. So it was almost
like he was trying to assign a posture syndrome
to me by saying, you don't deserve this. You're
not supposed to be here. And then I started doubting
myself. I'm like, is he right? Is this, am I
just a, is this a fluke? And it did a lot of
damage to my - Psyche. Momentum, I think, you
know? And I had to kind of like take him and
say, Okay. Is everyone else saying the same thing?
No. Is this guy an outlier? Yes. Right. So as
dear to me as this person is or was, I couldn't
let that hold me down. And it took me a long
time to get to that point. And I got to tell
you years later, it's still, it's every now and
then it still stings. I've had what you said
about I'm sorry I've had what you said about
people saying well I'm just not into what you're
writing and it makes me doubt what I'm writing
I was selling my book at this fair and this lady
you know I said I think my books a little too
old for your kids because they were like you
know young she said well I don't know Anyone
who would want to read about a biker gang unless
you walked away I'm like and then I was just
thinking maybe no one wants to read about a biker
gang and that's like in my book is like about
a biker culture So it made me doubt what I'm
writing based on what other people had to say.
That's such a genre though Yeah, yeah, exactly.
You know, we I've read a lot of You know marketing
books and stuff and books on like how to get
an agent and all this and a lot of them say the
same thing You know, don't try to write. And
this kind of goes into the whole like genre bias
that, you know, don't try to write this beautiful
masterpiece that is intended for everyone to
love, because you'll never get there. You know,
find your people, like find the biker gang people.
And that's right. And say, these are my people.
This is my demographic. This is your book. And
then when other people say, I don't like that,
you go, yeah, I know. I don't care because it's
not for you. It's for them. There's thousands
of those people. There's thousands of I have
a friend who's writing a biker romance is out
there and you find your people and then like
I was at a I was at a book show and I saw a bunch
of young women walk by and they had like kind
of what I would consider like new goth new goth,
you know, not like goth from the 80s, but like
goth from Today where they drive their pinks
and they wear the whatever they're wearing and
I thought oh I bet they like vampires because
that's my people the gothic kind of you know,
and So they walk by the table. I'm like you guys
like vampires and then one of them One of the
women goes I like Twilight and she just kept
walking And I was like not my people because
my fires, you know aren't that they don't sparkle
they don't sparkle they burn in the sun making
kind of ironic remarks back and forth yeah yeah
that's you just need to you know you know what
i think i feel like once you get to the point
where you know who your people are so when you
when outside of your your niche says i'm not
interested you just kind of go yeah Yeah, okay.
I didn't expect you to be. Yeah, okay. I was
going to jump in and say that I've interviewed
two other authors writing about bikers, so. Oh
yeah, it's popular. You're not the only one.
You're in good company. Listen, you got some
celebrities who are bikers, you better attack
those guys. I was thinking about, because I love,
what's his name, the basketball player, and my
son saw him in Florida. when he was in Miami,
Rodman. And he's a biker. And my son saw him
in Florida and Miami. And he was telling me about
him. I said, yeah, he's been a biker since he's
been playing basketball. He's been a biker. But
he said his bike was huge. But those celebrities
like that, I mean, just take a picture with I
mean, just to have a picture with him, I would
have like, I would have put that all over the
place. I remember when my book came out, it was
stuff, right? And so the trick I did, so I'm
always trying to figure out how to get my book
where it's not supposed to be, right? I'm always
thinking that, right? I said, I wonder if I go
into the library and ask my book, like, I'm not
the writer, right? And will they buy it? So I
go into the library and I say, do you have this
book? And I'm like, I don't know. They're like,
no. I said, yeah, somebody recommended it to
me. And I wanted to see if you had it. Well,
you're in luck. We're ordering books. And yes.
So she got the book. That's smart. Right? So
it was like two weeks later, I get a call. And
your book's in. I said, my book's in. I had no
way. So I go to the library. There was Curious
George and the Ranger. I forgot the Ranger's
name. They were there, the characters were there.
The man in the yellow hat? Yeah, they were there.
I thought he had a name. Maybe they gave him
a name later, I don't know. I thought he did,
but they were there, like the characters was
there. So I was like, oh, this is great. So I
get the book, take a picture of it, you know,
some music, but then I said, hey, Let's use these
guys, right? So I'm taking a picture with them.
So I put it on Facebook. Yeah, I got my book
came in today, a library. Your book's at the
library? Well, guess what everybody went to do?
They went to their library and asked, and they
got the book at the library. Quick tip. Quick
tip to get your book at the library. I called
all my cousins in every state, hey, go down to
the library and ask for this book. You know,
that's a great idea, you know, you don't even
need to go what I'm thinking of calling every
library in the country now and asking for my
book because like this time I think it's this
time of year that they start getting their catalog
ready for next year. So this time of year is
a great time He has a name in the movies and
TV, what is it Ted Shackle? What is it? Oh, okay.
Not in the books, only in the... Okay, okay.
Yeah, they did say in the children's book is
always the man with the yellow hat. No, this
is a practical tip that we're gonna need to make
into a TikTok, I think. Yeah. Put that one on
your TikTok right away and... Okay. And then
everyone's gonna... doing it and then the librarians
aren't even going to answer the phone anymore.
No, they have to. They have to. They have to
listen to the patrons. The patrons are important.
That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So you get it in the
library, you get it at one and every library
will have it. So it's that easy. I thought it
was hard because when it first started, remember
how that you had to get on this list and you
had to pay to get on this list with the whatever,
National Library Association or whatever it was.
Yeah, no. It was that easy. That's why Houston
was acting. Every time I brought a book to the
library to try to get in, they was giving me
such a hard time. You had to do this and do this
and this and this. Me too. No, no. I'm telling
you to ask for it. Ask them to purchase it. Oh
yeah, I know. I'm just saying, they're still
making you go through a hard time. You know me
too. I had the same experience with the library.
There was like 20 steps I'm like, I don't want
to do those 20 steps. So I like Edna's idea Ask
about, you know, and just have like, have people
come in and ask about it. And they may not have
it. Okay. We're going to order. Cause if four
or five people come in and answer about that
book, yeah, they're going to get it because that
means the patrons are like, okay, who is this
person? You know, they're going to do it. And
then that kind of makes a way, such way to you
being paid to be speaker at the library. Yeah,
yeah, maybe I need to learn how to do voices
so I can protect them I we can like generate
some And you have dear life, Lisa Cooper. Okay,
Matt, you are hired. You can call for me. She
can be Swedish. We can all just take turns and
like cycle through. Yeah, there you go. Everyone
that I've interviewed. Okay, now you owe me a
phone call. That's right. Call the library. Where
are you from? Oh, can you call the library? I'll
do the return over here. You know, that's simple.
It's easy. Yeah. But I think also bookstores,
you know, like when I was in Colorado Springs,
that's where I just moved from, but like a couple
local bookstores were happy to carry my book
on consignment. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, it was
much easier than I thought to get my book into
some of the local bookstores. Yeah, but that
would be great to do for others. I've had some
that were great and some that were just not having
it. Yeah, because I'm an indie author and they
wouldn't carry it. I know Barnes and Nobles has
now an indie list. Anybody works with Barnes
and Nobles? I've had bad luck with that. I do
a lot of things with them. Like I formed a relationship
with the general manager. So like I go in there
and I was like, okay, I'm gonna have this. Okay,
let's do it. So I used to get like five or six
other authors in there and we just like have
it like this jamboree and sell our books. So
a lot of us are indies. And so they have an indies
list. They just ask for ISBN. Nice. So, you know,
Barnes and Nobles is, you know, especially if
you can bring them foot traffic, they'll love
you. You know, I mean, their vampire book would
have been good on Halloween, you know, like a
theme of the vampire books. You would have been
making money left to right. Oh, yeah. You know,
I've gone to four Barnes and Nobles in my area.
They all ghosted me. They never got back to me
at all. So I don't, but I've heard of Barnes
and Noble doing things for other indie authors.
So I just, I guess, I guess up where I live is
just bad. I got some lousy luck or, you know,
they're just not interested. It's the managers.
So far, now you're going to have everyone you
know go in there and ask for your book. And then
they're going to be begging for it. Look at my
interview with Dan Kleffstad because he talks
about some ways to make connections with independent
bookstores around the country. There's a website,
I'm trying to read this handwritten note here
and track it down and unfortunately I wrote it
so sloppy that I'm gonna have to go and rewatch
the interview myself to get it. But there is
a way to, you can start networking like that,
just approach all of these independent bookstores.
Yeah, I'm in five independent bookstores right
now, and I've gotten several rejections, where
people are just like, no, I don't have enough
shelf space, or I don't care that you're an indie
author, that sort of thing. I've had libraries
tell me no. I've had libraries say yes. I've
had libraries buy my books. It's a mixed bag.
So I think you have to prepare. It just depends
on who's over the section. That's right. Exactly.
I had a librarian take my books and since they
come back and check, when I went back and check,
she had thrown them away. I was like, Oh my God.
Oh no. Throw your book away. Geez. Yeah, it kind
of took me off for a while and I was like, she
just threw them away. Well, they can, if they
pay for it, they can do, they can throw it away.
But if they pay for it and I'm giving it to them,
no, no. Nope, she didn't. she didn't pay for
them, and she just looked at them, wouldn't have
the ISBN number and all this. Wow. And then I
went back to check in. That's terrible. Another
thing to look at also, it depends on what you
write, but it's high school libraries. You seem
to be like, I got a really good response. I like
emailed like five different high schools and
four got back to me and said, yeah, bring us
your book. So that was a good, I mean, I write
young adult, but still, even if you don't. Yeah,
it's really good. I only have one young adult
book. I don't know why I wrote that book, but.
I can't do it because I'm a first school teacher.
Yeah. I did have one of my books in my high school
library for a while, and then I was accused of
conflict of interest, and it went away. That's
too bad. I could try the high school in your
town. It'd probably be different, yeah. And you
were in the school, in that school, right, though,
Matt? Yeah, I was in the school, and the New
York City is particularly very uptight about
that. I'm not even supposed to admit that I have
books in my class, because I can't tell my students.
So if they say, hey, I heard you're an author,
I'm like, no, that's another guy who looks just
like me. That's surprising since you teach English
that they wouldn't show how successful you are
in applying your knowledge. No they don't. That
doesn't make sense. If I did something great
with math I would think I would be able to mention
it in a math classroom. Yeah they don't want
you to make money off of the children. That's
the priority is that we can't have a side hustle,
our side hustles interfere with the teaching.
That would toss my history book. There's so many
different things that have given me imposter
syndrome, just trying to I wrote this book called
The Perfect Solution and it's about childcare
and a child that was pretty much stalked and
the teacher made a mistake giving the weight,
but it's about the issues in daycare and negligence
and all that. And this director even hired me
to work in her daycare because I was a daycare
worker at the time. And it took a lot of the
points and solutions out of my book and implementing
her system. And when I got ready to, she even
gave me a good book review. And when I got ready
to start a little home daycare, cause I got tired
of working with somebody else, she wanted her
review taken off my book. Wow. I was like, she
said, I want you to take down my review. But
you know, I didn't take down her review because
girl, you gave that to me. It was a good book.
My stepfather. Right. Did you get paid for like
her using some of that in the taking some of
that out and using it? No, no. She just used.
No. And then I went around with different daycares
and we even did workshops and they hint just
to secure your daycares because working in daycare,
there's so much negligence can go around. Right,
sure. Well, that's a really good subject. I mean,
I would say it's like, you know, primo. I would
definitely... I don't push that like on, you
know, get me created an online course for that.
I pushed that. I had to really do everything.
And I'm like, but then that was in my little
hometown. Now I moved to Houston and Houston
is kind of scared. You know, I want to say this,
that imposter syndrome hits marginalized authors
like black authors, women, LGBTQ harder. a lot
and underrepresented groups because our message
sometimes is not universal because they don't
see it from our view. And so that's what the
process syndrome can get us like that. Well,
that's why I was thinking when misty said about
being a romance author that it's you know more
connected with women And so like i've heard like
if I remember this author came into my english
classroom And she said when she named her she
changed her name from christine to chris Her
sales went way up because people assumed she
was a man So I think that misty like as a romance
writer, you know people say romance women doesn't
count doesn't matter and i feel like that is
do you think that's true i think that's part
of it yeah and they don't consider it to be a
serious genre you know right it's those kissing
books you know right right right and then if
you don't write spicy which is the trend now
That's what I say about my little robotic, not
spicy, erotic. Yeah. Spicy romance. I don't know.
But no, romance is hard. I put some romance in
my book, and that's the first time I ever did.
And it was challenging. I mean, you know what
to say, what not to say, like, especially for
writing for a teen audience. I don't know if
you write for all different age levels, but I
found it very challenging. Yeah. All right. Adults,
I mean I've wrote in different various different
heat levels. But yeah, that's Yeah, I like that
spicy Yeah, yeah now do you in your vampire books
are they romance also or no a Little bit. There's
no spice Yeah Yeah, it's um, I think the book
to in book one she kind of is Maybe interested
in this guy and I kind of it's a very slow burn
interest because it's not a romance It's not
as part of the genre, but the second book they
smooch so But that's all you get If something
happens in in book three, it'll be a fade to
black because it's it's not something I've written
previously so I don't want to like throw a a
genre of monkey wrench into this urban fantasy
that's been no romance the whole time. And then
suddenly it's like, like, has anyone seen the
Matrix movies, Keanu Reeves? Right. Oh, yeah.
The second movie, I think, opens up when they're
in Zion, this underground city. And there's this
like. of steamy scene with him and trinity and
i remember thinking is that what this kind of
movie is but like it was it was almost jarring
like i didn't mind the spice of it but it was
at the same time i'm like this was a sci -fi
kind of action adventure and now they're throwing
it in a sex scene it just felt out of place and
i'm there to see that that's not what you know
not that i you know felt like kind of self -indulgent
yeah yeah it felt like it didn't belong And then
we never saw anything like that again. Like it
didn't get steam. It was no steamy stuff in the
third one and there's no steamy stuff later in
the second one. It was just this one off scene
that just didn't feel like it belonged. Well,
a question for you all. Do you write to what
you think your readers want, even if it's something
you don't particularly want to include or write
about, because you think it will do better or
resonate more with who your target audience is?
No, I don't write. No, I write the same. A reader
will come for it. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I was writing
romance which Misty taught me how to do forever
grateful for that You were writing in a genre
which had a certain spice level so she had to
coach me through writing spice. Yeah I put out
two books on my own one of them long and the
other one very short and I managed to put the
spice in by myself, but it is very unnatural
to me Yeah, I'd say for the most part, I just
at this point, in order to break through the
writer's block in the extended period of imposter
syndrome that I went through, starting from COVID
time, that I'm just writing whatever I'm interested
in what I feel like I can write, I can, I can
finish this and I'll have to figure it out later.
You know, I said to myself, Recently, it was
a non posted Facebook comment I posted. I have
to accommodate myself to the idea that when I
put out the next book that absolutely no one
is going to buy it. I will not sell a single
copy by just doing it because I have to do it
and that's sort of where I am. I promised you
all that I would be vulnerable. for this one
and just kind of acknowledge that because usually
when I'm doing school of fiction stuff I'm the
expert and I'm the interviewer and stuff like
that the reality is that I really do not know
what that I have a professional place other than
what than doing this right now I still want to
write I'm still writing I still like what I'm
writing but it's it's been the market has been
very alienating You know, I'm not saying I'm
not asking for coaching or because I heard a
lot of good ideas. Interviewing is giving me
good ideas. You know, it's just to be honest
about this, this feeling that after more than
four years as a writer, I have absolutely no
place whatsoever in the industry except this
kind of, you know, pose of being the grand old
man. You know, it's tough. idea of this book
I hadn't been pushing very well because some,
I've just been getting the wrong people talking
to me because this one book I wrote, this lady
told me nobody would ever want to read that book.
I mean, and it has gotten some really good reviews
too. And it's called The Fishing Trip and basically
what it's about. And as we was talking, I was
like, oh my God, I could have been pushing that.
with the Epstein files because what it's about
is the the guy in there was abused as a child
in the whole little town it's a bunch of pedophiles
are some abusing people and then these children
started taking care of these pedophiles you know
like getting rid of them and when they got older
the guy gets rid of pedophiles and his main point
is um life deserves action and um the latest
thing i would ever want to read that book but
i'm like i would i'd want to read that yeah are
you going to call the fishing crew that book
inside one of those groups that you know for
like you know child abuse or whatever and that
book was so hot i was like i was just sitting
here and i've been trying to write the the little
short stories for the everybody who's in there
to just so you can see where they all came from.
And I was stuck. But as y 'all were talking,
I was like, man, I could have been pushing that
book this time. Wait till tomorrow, I'm gonna
write something about it. Because she said, oh
my God, and she's a big promoter now. Because
when I first met her, she was asking about books
and what you write. And when I sent that in,
nobody's ever going to read that book. But then
I watch her now. She's promoting. That's her
job. She promotes people. I've never brought
it back up in her face, but. Well, that's that's
just goes back to like finding your people. You
know, she's not she's not one of yours. I went
to years ago. No, not that many. Couple of years
ago, I think it was. I went to Balticon. which
is a science fiction. They bill it as a science
fiction and fantasy book con, but it's really
heavy on the science fiction. So it's in Maryland.
So it was a road trip. I'm doing all these shows
in Massachusetts, Rhode Island, where I live.
This is going to extend my reach, and maybe I
can find some people in a different state, and
that would be great. So I get down there, and
it's plenty of authors. plenty of indie authors,
but the biggest genre is sci -fi. And I would
say the median age of the people going to the
con are about 60. So these aren't just like sci
-fi fans. These are like Isaac Asimov, Elrond
Hubbard, Robert A. Heinlein. Like, you know,
H .G. Wells, like all, you know, old school stuff
like that. So if I had, you know, maybe if I
had spaceships or something, they would have
been like, hmm. But I couldn't tell you how many
people walk by my table and went vampires. No,
no, no. And if if I didn't get myself in that
kind of mindset where I was like, these aren't
my people, I probably would have walked away
from that event thinking, oh, my God, this is
what am I doing? You know, but I. Thankfully,
I was in that headspace where I was like, I'm
in the wrong con. Yeah. Well, I just want to
add that, you know, to answer my question also,
I do actually look at what my audience wants.
And one thing I do is I look at agents manuscript
wishlist. It's a great way to see like what's
trending and so I still write about what I want
to write about but I'm incorporating a lot more
like LGBTQ plus topics and characters, a lot
more multicultural characters than I ever wrote
before. And I got a lot of sensitivity readers
because I've never written from, you know, certain
viewpoints and things. But I feel like it made
my writing richer to really like, look and see
what do teenagers care about and somehow work
that into my idea. So. Yeah. Well, in romance,
there are a lot of expectations as far as your
tropes and your sub -genres go. So you really
have to keep those in mind. Cause if you throw
something out there that people haven't seen
before, it's, you know, that doesn't get received
all that well usually. So, you know, you don't
really want to invent. Yeah. And you have to
have at least a happy ending or happy for now.
So that's very important in romance. Otherwise,
you have Nicholas Sparks, and that's not romance.
Right, right, right. Yeah, you do have to feed
into the, you know, especially for certain genres,
especially like mysteries, sci -fi, you know,
thrillers. Yes, it's a little bit formulaic,
and that's where I kind of struggle, because
I'm a thriller writer, but I'm also a sci -fi
writer, but not typical sci -fi. care about spaceships
and monsters. I write about the mind. So it is
hard, you know, but I try to like, listen to
and look at what you know, not just what's popular,
but like what the agents are asking for. That's
the way to do it. Take those expectations and
make that story yours too, you know? Right. Exactly.
You know, it's really awful when I do read current
stuff and I'm like, all right, this is the last
three books. It's like, you know, different characters,
same book, you know, these books that are super
popular. And I'm like, all right, it's the same.
This girl's on a boat that girl's on a train,
but it's like I'm querying right now and the
first time the first time I queried was in 2022
and Ultimately, I had to shelve the book because
I got a full request and I got some feedback
and on how to tweak it and stuff and by that
time My vampire series had already kind of taken
off on my self publishing track So I'm like,
I don't really have time to focus on this right
now, so I kind of shelved it. Fast forward now,
I have a novella that I'm querying brand new.
And the difference in those three years, we were
talking about how imposter syndrome hits underrepresented
demographics more than, say, white dudes, right?
When I query right now, first of all, most of
the agents that I see out there are are women
and they are hungry for LGBTQ plus um own voices
written by um you know people of color and they
disabled it yes it in three years and i'm and
i'm glad to see it because it's it's this it's
this industry just walk through a barnes and
noble or any bookstore yeah it's it's it's this
dominated you know one -sided place, you know
literature and People are like going we need
other voices we need other stuff and Going through
a manuscript wish wish list as you said is like
arming yourself with all the information you
need is this the right agent for me are they
looking for what I have and Yeah, it's just a
great way to do it and it's It's great to see
the industry do it. It doesn't help me. It just
means that I have to step it up a bit, which
is good because it's been a long time coming.
I wanted to say to Matt, what you're feeling
is imposter syndrome. It's riding under pressure.
um that you finally find find your place and
then you feel the constant you know push to produce
you don't have to um because there's sometimes
at a time that you i mean i literally had a time
i didn't write at all at all and then all of
a sudden there it comes. It may be that you know
how you open a jar and you have to you try it
with your hands and it still don't open right
and so you have to go find something like maybe
one of those little flat things you put on top
and it grips it and you have to find something
to open it. This could be your time that you're
finding something to open what you really are
going to write about. So take this time and just
like just chill like really. I would get so much
imposter syndrome when I tried to write anything
other than when COVID struck. I tried to write
a book from the point of view of a mixed race
female, high school girl, part Asian, part Black.
And I thought this is kind of what even back
then I thought the industry was looking for.
And I liked her and I liked the character and
I liked the writing. I said to myself, but I
would be considered an imposter for this right
because I even if I can't pull it off because
I'm not those things and I stopped I never did
finish it and because I would genuinely have
been an imposter writing such a book even though
I like the characters and I like the situation.
Do you still believe that Matt? I don't think
so. I don't think so. I don't think you would.
I had a guy with Sean McMichaels and he wrote
a book about an Indian reservation. It was a
thriller. And the Indian young boy fell in love
with a white girl. It was in Montana somewhere.
And I said, so where do you get your thoughts
because you're not Indian. I don't know, because
we're cracking up laughing. I was like, you're
not Indian. So he says, yeah. He said, what I
had to do is what he calls shadow work is hang
out with somebody of that color. Hang out with
them. I had an author recently on, Alex Temblador,
who has a book about writing identity, not your
own, who said very much the same thing you have
to. make friends within the community that you're
writing about. I did not think that being the
teacher of those teenage girls was sufficient.
That's sufficient. You know, Jennifer brought
up sensitivity readers, which I think is a great
resource. Alex was recommending that too. Yeah,
I've used sensitivity readers before. I wrote
my first manuscript. The woman was lesbian. So
I didn't, you know, I had to hire a sensitivity
reader for that. And then I have another character
in my current series who's deaf. And I wanted
to be very not, you know, not only do you want
to get it right, but you want to be sensitive
to not use something accidentally that just comes
off bad. You know, so. So I don't think you would
have been an imposter to write outside your demographic,
I think. If I think it's the opposite, I think
we're expected to because otherwise I'm writing
if that was the case, I'd write stories about
a bunch of white men that are in IT, you know,
and it'd be a very boring story. No, but you're
right, Matt. I hear you because I love legal
and medical thrillers, but I would never try
to write one. I do not know firsthand, you know,
enough to write that Well, you know, that's I
feel like kind of the same way. Like, I love
reading them and watching them, but I wouldn't
try myself to write it like as a doctor or a
lawyer, because I wouldn't even think the way
that they would. And you're on the subject, my
my sister, she particular show on TV that is
in her field and she can't stand the show because
she's like Nobody in the field would say what
they said or do it that way because she has firsthand
knowledge, you know So I kind of feel like I
would be an imposter if I tried to write a medical
thriller or like right, you know be John Grisham
So I hear you about that I have written people
of color quite a bit E, you just read one book
when I was most proud of how I did that. I don't
know, you didn't comment to me about it, but
I don't want to be afraid to do those things,
but it's just that I also don't, it's more like
a perception of being an imposter rather than
an, it's kind of the feeling that people are
going to say, you shouldn't have done that. You
had no right to do that. That's the syndrome.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not true. It's not true.
Well, let me ask a question for Jennifer. Then
you talked about medical writing about medical
because it's not, you know, something you're
I don't know. I don't want to put boards in your
mouth, but you're not comfortable writing or
you don't feel you have the expertise. Are you
are you? Do you have like biker gangs or bikers
in your in your life? Or is that something you
had? I was part of the biker community in Fort
Lauderdale for many years. And so, right. I was
I'm biker adjacent. That's what I call myself.
But like I And I actually had a lot of bikers
read my stuff because like in my plot I needed
a criminal group and I happened to also be watching
sons of anarchy at the time Yeah, it was so great.
I was taking notes about what they wore how they
talked This is only half of my book But yeah,
but I also have a lot of some skinhead stuff
and that's where like someone said to me I'm
not going to I never wrote such edgy content
and I was kind of like should I use is the N
word because the skinhead person would and I
had I had several sensitivity readers I decided
to take that word out. And I just changed that
scene quite a bit because I didn't feel comfortable
with what the guy said, but, you know, so I had
to kind of, you know, make that decision. And
just in general, yeah, definitely the sensitivity
readers were amazing. And I had people of several
different, you know, I had a couple, you know,
I had a transvestite person read, I had several
different people of all different. And it was
very, very helpful because, you know, also, like
someone mentioned sensitivity, like someone said,
God, don't say that like that. And I'm like,
is that wrong? Like I didn't know and so that
was very very helpful for me because you know
Sometimes you don't realize what you're saying
could really offend somebody. Yeah, so put all
the curses and once it becomes a movie I'm a
big proponent of if something if you have a subject
that's that you're passionate about and you don't
know enough about it to write about it or You
could research it I like to use Michael Crichton
as an example, because not only did he do ER,
but he also did Westworld and Jurassic Park.
And I think Michael Crichton may have a medical
background. So ER felt like me. He was a doctor.
He was in America. Yeah. But when he did Jurassic
Park, he went and he talked to paleontologists.
And he brought himself. He had an idea for a
story, but he didn't know enough about dinosaurs.
So he brought himself up to speed. If that's
something you want to do, then I wouldn't, if
it's a subject that you want to write about,
I wouldn't hold yourself back from it because
you don't feel like you're allowed to do it.
Right. And I do have some medical things, but
like, like I love Tess Garretson. She's one of
my very, very favorites, but like I could never
write like her because she was a medical examiner
and I just wouldn't even know. And those things
wouldn't even occur to me. So I wouldn't write
as that, like as a main character probably. But
yeah, I definitely agree. You could do research
on like, you know, you're saying like, you know,
go hang out with people of whoever you're trying
to write. Yeah. So we're coming to the later
part of our time. And so let's, I guess, go around
and give a final message about imposter syndrome.
What did we learn? What are we thinking about
this? And then we'll start scheduling part two.
Some of you are going to be in another forum
that I have coming up in December also. Who wants
to start? Well, it's good to know that we're
not alone. So we all have suffered from the same
syndrome and we will continue to suffer that
for the rest of our careers. And it's okay. You
can work through it. You can get through it.
I was so nervous to be on here. I almost didn't
come on because I was like, oh man, I don't have
nothing to say. I'm just lost. Well, same. I
had a very brain -draining day at work, so it
was rough. It was rough. Yeah. Yeah, I think
it's natural. I think we've all experienced it.
And I almost want to say we should embrace it
a little bit. Maybe take a step back, wallow
in it for a long while, and maybe figure out
why you feel the way that you do. And then wait
for that jar to open again. And then dig back
into it when you're ready. Definitely. Awareness
is really helpful. This has helped me to know
I'm not alone in my fears and insecurities. We
all have them no matter how accomplished we are.
maybe we can maybe a bit more as a motivator
to do better and you know kind of like you know
get out of our comfort zones a bit and start
you know working on those voices so you can just
like call everyone and get them to carry your
book. I don't know that's a really good tip,
I wrote it down actually. I don't know how we
got an echo but I apologize to the echo at the
end here. Am I the only one hearing it? Am I
the only one hearing it? I'm hearing it too.
I'm hearing it too. I'm hearing it too. I'm hearing
it too. All right. So I think I'll talk to you
quick. I'll talk to you quick. I think my summary
is that one of the best answers out of this session
of talking about this topic is working together.
And I feel like now I'll turn to these communities.
So imposter syndrome isn't the voice of truth
guys, it's the echo. of old rooms that we've
been in, old rules that we agreed to, and old
stories. So we've outgrown them. And think of
imposter syndrome as a signal to something bigger
than you were raised to believe. That's it. And
it's really enlightening to be with you all.
So let's just say what we want and then we'll
sign off. So what's next for everyone? Hey, I'm
going to do something to promote my fishing trip.
There you go. We'll do that tomorrow. Well, I'm
very excited. And I'm working on two. Well, my
book is One and Vermillion May Live. I'm working
on Two and Vermillion May Die. But I also have
this. these 13 short stories I've been working
on for 15 years. And I wrote a novel around them.
And I'm getting ready to query it. It's called
What Happened in the Janitor's Closet. And I'm
very excited. It's a psychological suspense with
a locked room mystery and an embedded short story
collection. Super excited. Nice. Nice. Nice.
Well, I am working on, hopefully, finishing the
fourth book in my romantic comedy series. I've
got the draft written. I just have to get motivated
enough to actually finish it. What's your series
called? Yes. I can tell you how good they are.
They're all amazing. I finally opened it last
weekend for the first time. I don't know. I think
I'm the only one left on the recording. Thank
you all so much for being here and I'll get this
out as soon as I can. Thank you so much. If you
are podcast host listen up this one's for you
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