WEBVTT 00:00:08.200 --> 00:00:11.039 Welcome and thank you for tuning in to Black 00:00:11.039 --> 00:00:14.480 Women Amplified, the podcast. Your host Monica 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:17.620 Wisdom Tyson brings you downloadable conversations 00:00:17.620 --> 00:00:21.219 that matter to women around the globe. We discuss 00:00:21.219 --> 00:00:24.480 all things black girl magic, amplify our voices 00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:29.339 and transform our challenges into triumphs. Monica 00:00:29.339 --> 00:00:32.039 calls on her league of extraordinary women to 00:00:32.039 --> 00:00:35.200 push our boundaries, share their expertise and 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.700 stories of personal transformation. Welcome your 00:00:38.700 --> 00:00:42.560 host of Black Women Amplified, Monica Wisdom 00:00:42.560 --> 00:00:48.740 Tyson. Hello, Black Women Amplified family. This 00:00:48.740 --> 00:00:51.840 is your girl Monica Wisdom, and I am so excited 00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:54.659 that you're here with us today. We have a very 00:00:54.659 --> 00:00:57.759 special guest on the Black Women Amplified, and 00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:00.320 I can't wait for you to hear our conversation. 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:03.960 Tanya Pinkins is a force of nature. She is a 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:07.219 Tony award -winning actor who approaches the 00:01:07.219 --> 00:01:10.859 many roles in her dynamic career with truth honoring 00:01:10.859 --> 00:01:14.379 each character she embodies. Whether it's her 00:01:14.379 --> 00:01:18.299 pioneering work in Jelly's Last Jam, her groundbreaking 00:01:18.299 --> 00:01:21.819 work in Caroline or Change, or her most recent 00:01:21.819 --> 00:01:25.640 return to the New York stage as Lena Younger 00:01:25.640 --> 00:01:29.760 in the reinvention of the award -winning play 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:34.189 Raisin in the Sun. Miss Pinkins adds layers of 00:01:34.189 --> 00:01:37.670 complexities, giving the audience a more dimensional 00:01:37.670 --> 00:01:41.909 understanding of these essential women. Her honesty 00:01:41.909 --> 00:01:45.569 and precision in sharing the pain and frustrations 00:01:45.569 --> 00:01:49.569 of humanity opens hearts and minds to the experiences 00:01:49.569 --> 00:01:53.689 of Black people and women. One thing I know for 00:01:53.689 --> 00:01:58.109 sure, Miss Pinkins is grace, strength, and courage 00:01:58.109 --> 00:02:01.319 personified. And we are honored to have her here 00:02:01.319 --> 00:02:04.579 on the Black Women Amplified podcast. Ladies 00:02:04.579 --> 00:02:09.180 and gentlemen, please give a warm welcome to 00:02:09.180 --> 00:02:15.360 Miss Tanya Pinkins. Good day, Miss Pinkins. How 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:20.240 are you? I am divine, Monica. How are you? I 00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:23.639 am very well. Thank you. Thank you for joining 00:02:23.639 --> 00:02:27.520 us and for this opportunity. I'm excited to speak 00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:30.939 with you. I've done a deep dive into Tanya Pinkins 00:02:30.939 --> 00:02:35.680 land and because your career is so deep and so 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:39.020 vast and you have played so many great characters 00:02:39.020 --> 00:02:42.719 and each thing that I saw and went into was more 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:45.080 spectacular than the next and we'll get into 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:47.840 all of that and because I know we're going to 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:50.580 talk about the red pill because you've dived 00:02:50.580 --> 00:02:54.240 into filmmaking. Yes. And I watched the film 00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:56.979 over the weekend. I just want to know, how does 00:02:56.979 --> 00:03:01.780 it feel after a seven year hiatus to return back 00:03:01.780 --> 00:03:07.259 to the New York stage? It was hard. It was so 00:03:07.259 --> 00:03:10.360 hard. Like, you know, the muscles of that, that 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:15.000 is a very muscular thing. Doing a show six days 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:18.879 a week and literally. And I thought, I don't 00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:21.280 know if I have it in me. And it was literally 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:24.039 the day I was like, oh my God, I got it back. 00:03:24.300 --> 00:03:26.460 I got the stamina. My mind can think of other 00:03:26.460 --> 00:03:28.240 things that they announced that we were going 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:34.300 to be closing. I was like, oh, I'm just getting 00:03:34.300 --> 00:03:39.240 my groove on. Yes. This is definitely a story 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:42.909 that continues. to be told and it needs to be 00:03:42.909 --> 00:03:45.270 told again and again, because it's such a contemporary 00:03:45.270 --> 00:03:48.750 story. Raising in the Sun is a story about a 00:03:48.750 --> 00:03:51.550 Black family trying to do what they need to do 00:03:51.550 --> 00:03:54.409 and who, especially in this time, is not trying 00:03:54.409 --> 00:03:58.550 to do what they need to do to make it. And so 00:03:58.550 --> 00:04:02.069 what drew you to this rendition of Raising in 00:04:02.069 --> 00:04:06.520 the Sun? Well, Robert O 'Hara. I love love love 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:08.639 love love love love slave play i know a lot of 00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:13.300 black women detested it detested it and i'm going 00:04:13.300 --> 00:04:15.780 to say something controversial as i want to do. 00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:20.500 I really think that black women detested slave 00:04:20.500 --> 00:04:22.660 play and the black woman's part in it because 00:04:22.660 --> 00:04:27.000 it was a reflection of their own relationships 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:29.560 with men who were unworthy of them and frankly 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:32.060 as black woman it's hard to find men who are 00:04:32.060 --> 00:04:35.480 worthy of us. So they didn't like seeing that 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:39.040 on the stage. Can you say that again? As black 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:41.899 women, we are so amazing. It is difficult to 00:04:41.899 --> 00:04:46.860 find anyone who is worthy of us. And so, you 00:04:46.860 --> 00:04:49.079 know, seeing it up on a stage where this black 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:52.360 woman is with a man who is just so unworthy of 00:04:52.360 --> 00:04:54.579 her, I think they just hated it because it was 00:04:54.579 --> 00:04:57.839 too close to home. What are the unique elements 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:01.579 of this production of Raisin in the Sun? Raisin 00:05:01.579 --> 00:05:03.360 and the Sun was done in 1959. I don't know if 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:05.000 you happen to see the essay I just wrote, did 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:09.759 you? Yes. Okay. So what's unique about it is 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:12.699 that instead of the happy, grab the plant to 00:05:12.699 --> 00:05:16.980 take to the next house, there's a coda, a visual 00:05:16.980 --> 00:05:21.279 coda on the production that gives you what the 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:23.100 Hansberry's actually faced when they got there. 00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:24.560 I mean, you're not going to get to see it this 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:28.220 week, right? So I'll just tell you that we, the 00:05:28.220 --> 00:05:32.290 apartment leaves and the new beautiful yellow 00:05:32.290 --> 00:05:35.250 house comes down and the little Travis comes 00:05:35.250 --> 00:05:38.730 out the front door and hear the bird singing 00:05:38.730 --> 00:05:41.629 and then nigger is splashed across the front 00:05:41.629 --> 00:05:45.389 of the house. So that's probably the biggest 00:05:45.389 --> 00:05:49.670 change. Other changes are I don't take the plant. 00:05:50.430 --> 00:05:53.250 If you're into the sort of specifics of why that's 00:05:53.250 --> 00:05:56.089 a choice I made. One, it's a house plant. If 00:05:56.089 --> 00:05:58.269 I put it in a garden, it's going to die. Hasn't 00:05:58.269 --> 00:06:01.509 ever been outside. Two, another change in the 00:06:01.509 --> 00:06:04.769 play, the ghost of Big Walter, who is dead, is 00:06:04.769 --> 00:06:08.129 in the house all the time for Lena. She is still 00:06:08.129 --> 00:06:10.709 grieving. She still sees him. He still talks 00:06:10.709 --> 00:06:13.250 to her. And so I leave the plant with him because 00:06:13.250 --> 00:06:16.129 in my mind, he's bound by this place. You know, 00:06:16.129 --> 00:06:17.910 we had these dreams to go somewhere else, but 00:06:17.910 --> 00:06:20.110 he doesn't get to go with us. So the plant is 00:06:20.110 --> 00:06:23.769 left to the house to him, whoever comes. the 00:06:23.769 --> 00:06:28.089 last monologue of Walter, where he's doing his 00:06:28.089 --> 00:06:30.189 cooning thing that he's going to do for the white 00:06:30.189 --> 00:06:33.189 man, instead of that being done for the women 00:06:33.189 --> 00:06:36.350 in the family. And particularly the way we are 00:06:36.350 --> 00:06:38.290 doing this production where we're overlapping 00:06:38.290 --> 00:06:41.370 lines, the way black people actually talk to 00:06:41.370 --> 00:06:43.470 each other instead of, you know, the way theater 00:06:43.470 --> 00:06:45.889 is you talk and then I talk and then you talk 00:06:45.889 --> 00:06:48.949 and then I talk. We're overlapping the way you 00:06:48.949 --> 00:06:52.089 come in when you when the thought comes. That 00:06:52.089 --> 00:06:54.629 long monologue, I'm guessing he did not ever 00:06:54.629 --> 00:06:57.589 say this, but in the style of how we're playing 00:06:57.589 --> 00:07:00.610 this play, none of us would ever allow Walter 00:07:00.610 --> 00:07:04.069 Lee to talk that long and so degradingly. And 00:07:04.069 --> 00:07:07.529 so with that scene is done, it is done. He breaks 00:07:07.529 --> 00:07:09.810 the fourth wall and he delivers it to the audience. 00:07:10.430 --> 00:07:14.379 So he's literally. coon in for the audience. 00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:16.740 And we are all looking out at the audience. And 00:07:16.740 --> 00:07:18.879 he's saying those people out there where you 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:22.000 want us to live, they willing to pay us not to 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:24.620 move there. And I'm gonna take that money and 00:07:24.620 --> 00:07:27.000 they won't have you won't have to live next to 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:29.660 no bunch of stinking dirty niggas. We not gonna 00:07:29.660 --> 00:07:32.639 come and dirty up your house. So it's so powerful 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:36.560 to actually like make the audience the people 00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:41.269 where they're moving. You know, there was a A 00:07:41.269 --> 00:07:44.129 theater educator a white man who came and he 00:07:44.129 --> 00:07:46.829 was at a talk back with me and he came up afterwards 00:07:46.829 --> 00:07:48.790 and we got to have a conversation he talked about 00:07:48.790 --> 00:07:52.110 how you know that monologue is the hamlet of 00:07:52.110 --> 00:07:53.970 our time and everybody knows that monologue and 00:07:53.970 --> 00:07:56.670 how he hated it so hard with the fourth wall 00:07:56.670 --> 00:07:58.470 being broken he said i hated it and he said i 00:07:58.470 --> 00:08:01.250 hated it so hard that i had to look at myself 00:08:01.250 --> 00:08:03.870 and go what was this about this is yours it was 00:08:03.870 --> 00:08:06.470 like you made me instead of me being able to 00:08:06.470 --> 00:08:09.920 observe it. I had to hold it. I had to be a part 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:11.980 of it. And he said, I'm going to be unpacking 00:08:11.980 --> 00:08:16.220 this for a long time to come. So Walter Lee is 00:08:16.220 --> 00:08:20.379 normally just played as some charismatic, charming, 00:08:20.699 --> 00:08:24.019 handsome movie star, a guy who just, we just 00:08:24.019 --> 00:08:27.240 ignore how sexist and misogynistic and what a 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:30.420 drunk he is. There's like only one scene in the 00:08:30.420 --> 00:08:32.659 play where he's not drunk and that is when he 00:08:32.659 --> 00:08:35.879 wakes up in the morning. Every other day he's 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:38.059 drunk. His kid walks in and goes, you're drunk 00:08:38.059 --> 00:08:41.700 daddy? Okay, she wrote a drunk. That is something 00:08:41.700 --> 00:08:44.159 that previous productions have chosen to overlook. 00:08:44.539 --> 00:08:46.879 They've chosen to overlook all the sexism, the 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:50.039 misogyny of him, because, you know, that is misogynoir. 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:51.899 You know, he gets to talk that way, and oh, that's 00:08:51.899 --> 00:08:53.980 just funny the way he talks to these women. We 00:08:53.980 --> 00:08:56.799 don't do that here. Francois, who is brilliant 00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:00.279 and handsome and charismatic and all of that 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:03.980 leans into the misogyny and the drunkenness. 00:09:04.019 --> 00:09:06.379 And he does it brilliantly because for some people 00:09:06.379 --> 00:09:08.899 he's still just as charming as ever. And other 00:09:08.899 --> 00:09:11.320 people for the first time see, oh man, this man 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:18.240 is a dick. So you get to see past the sparkle 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:22.159 and the way he's able to. bring the ladies in. 00:09:22.259 --> 00:09:24.139 You get to see who he really is and what the 00:09:24.139 --> 00:09:27.980 women really have to deal with. Exactly. That 00:09:27.980 --> 00:09:31.399 is what we are doing. It's like you get to see 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:34.570 what we deal with when the door is closed. Yes. 00:09:34.830 --> 00:09:38.629 And the suit is on the couch. That is what Robert 00:09:38.629 --> 00:09:42.230 O 'Hara told me we were gonna do. He said, why 00:09:42.230 --> 00:09:46.230 is a play by a queer black woman with four black 00:09:46.230 --> 00:09:49.210 women in it known as a play about a black man's 00:09:49.210 --> 00:09:52.509 dreams? What about the women's dreams? Right. 00:09:53.129 --> 00:09:56.769 So when you re -imagine Lena, is that what you 00:09:56.769 --> 00:09:58.970 brought to her character? Or you're bringing 00:09:58.970 --> 00:10:02.559 to her character, I should say? I think... What 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:06.639 you know this is is my specific history specifically 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:10.379 my family migrated up from Mississippi Louisiana 00:10:10.379 --> 00:10:13.720 Arkansas to Chicago worked those steel meals 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:18.019 were domestics in white families I knew five 00:10:18.019 --> 00:10:22.200 generations on both sides of my family I know 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:26.799 these women intimately and the ways I had seen 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:29.960 it played before and I think that that's because 00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:32.750 it was always about the man and the women were 00:10:32.750 --> 00:10:36.129 just satellites. He was the sun and they were 00:10:36.129 --> 00:10:39.710 satellites of him. The women were always a trope 00:10:39.710 --> 00:10:42.190 of, you know, one dimension. Each of them was 00:10:42.190 --> 00:10:44.750 playing a trope that he had to play off of, you 00:10:44.750 --> 00:10:47.990 know, the long suffering nagging wife, the wannabe 00:10:47.990 --> 00:10:52.429 bourgeoisie daughter and the mean emasculating 00:10:52.429 --> 00:10:55.370 mother. And I don't know any of those people. 00:10:55.669 --> 00:10:57.350 I don't know any black women like that, quite 00:10:57.350 --> 00:11:02.169 frankly. I don't either. I don't know those women. 00:11:02.450 --> 00:11:04.309 And the actresses I'm playing with aren't that. 00:11:04.690 --> 00:11:06.710 And so, you know, Robert was like, this is the 00:11:06.710 --> 00:11:09.350 women's play. And if you look at the text, Walter 00:11:09.350 --> 00:11:11.870 Lee doesn't start or end any scenes. The women 00:11:11.870 --> 00:11:14.750 do. And he just always is coming in and interrupting 00:11:14.750 --> 00:11:19.159 their shit. That's the play she wrote. And so 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:21.399 we take the time with the women and what they're 00:11:21.399 --> 00:11:22.639 going through. And most of the time we're not 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:24.940 even looking at him. He's coming in and setting 00:11:24.940 --> 00:11:26.799 off fireworks and we are looking at each other 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:29.019 and trying to figure out whatever we were talking 00:11:29.019 --> 00:11:30.820 about before. It doesn't stop just cause he's 00:11:30.820 --> 00:11:32.320 acting a fool in the middle of the living room. 00:11:32.460 --> 00:11:38.059 And that's as real as it gets. Because that is 00:11:38.059 --> 00:11:41.200 the truth. And so as her, as his mother, I don't 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:43.899 feel sorry for him. I know my son is foolish. 00:11:44.190 --> 00:11:47.570 Right. I know my son has some pipe dreams. Okay. 00:11:47.750 --> 00:11:50.090 So there is nothing tragic to me about him. He 00:11:50.090 --> 00:11:52.429 just foolish. You need to grow the fuck up. Also, 00:11:52.629 --> 00:11:54.870 like my grandmother's one of my grandmother's 00:11:54.870 --> 00:11:56.789 worked on the sunbeam line. She used to buy herself 00:11:56.789 --> 00:12:00.250 a new Cadillac every damn year. She gave card 00:12:00.250 --> 00:12:03.730 party. She was a Fisher woman. She grew roses. 00:12:04.110 --> 00:12:07.409 She raised dogs that she could party wore the 00:12:07.409 --> 00:12:10.470 finest clothes. And so we talked about like, 00:12:10.470 --> 00:12:12.830 you know, always mama, she's all raggedy and 00:12:12.830 --> 00:12:15.490 she wears a robe and she's the down trodden. 00:12:16.210 --> 00:12:18.169 I'm like, if a black woman got to go talk to 00:12:18.169 --> 00:12:20.049 some white people and ask for something, she 00:12:20.049 --> 00:12:23.029 gets her best. We always have our finest stuff. 00:12:23.110 --> 00:12:24.730 We don't go out asking the white people for nothing 00:12:24.730 --> 00:12:28.809 and not being our spick and span best. Not a 00:12:28.809 --> 00:12:31.509 hair out of place, not a hair out of place. Got 00:12:31.509 --> 00:12:34.919 the gloves, got the lipstick. You know, I'm from 00:12:34.919 --> 00:12:37.440 Chicago. We're steppers. We put a little stepping 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:39.080 moment in there. Mama, you know, talking about 00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:41.320 that $10 ,000. We got a little stepping moment 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:45.580 in there. This woman is alive and lively. She's 00:12:45.580 --> 00:12:48.399 still grieving, but this $10 ,000 can change 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:52.279 her life. This is her retirement. She gonna put 00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:53.799 her daughter through school with a third of it. 00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:56.240 She gone. But get it down payment on the house. 00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:58.120 That's for the family. And that other 3000, that's 00:12:58.120 --> 00:12:59.360 something she don't have to work for the rest 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:01.480 of her life. But she says to Walter here, you 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:03.840 pay the bills from now on. And Walter takes all 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:06.159 the damn money. Don't throw everybody under the 00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:09.480 bus. And that's so many men have thought that 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:11.879 that was what the play was. Mama saying here, 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:13.840 take the money and have your chance and live 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:17.940 your dream. She don't never say that either head 00:13:17.940 --> 00:13:20.379 of this house. Oh, put this in a checking account. 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:24.779 And then you write the checks. I'm gonna let 00:13:24.779 --> 00:13:28.519 you take care of me. We gonna pretend you the 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:31.220 man of the house. Cause that would be some pretend. 00:13:31.899 --> 00:13:34.679 Cause you didn't earn that money. I am over here 00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:39.740 crying, laughing because this is so real. It 00:13:39.740 --> 00:13:42.659 is the woman who really, you know, they always 00:13:42.659 --> 00:13:44.360 say the man is the head of the household, but 00:13:44.360 --> 00:13:47.299 the woman is the net. And we have a way of letting 00:13:47.299 --> 00:13:50.799 them feel like they're running it. But the truth 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:55.110 of the matter is they're not. Right. I mean, 00:13:55.110 --> 00:13:57.789 I literally had a man I was dating once asked 00:13:57.789 --> 00:13:59.909 me, I took him somewhere and he was like, could 00:13:59.909 --> 00:14:01.590 you just give me the money and I pay the bill? 00:14:01.990 --> 00:14:04.330 I said, no, we're not going to pretend you paying 00:14:04.330 --> 00:14:08.470 for this meal. I'm paying for it. And I brought 00:14:08.470 --> 00:14:10.450 you cause I wanted to sit here with you. Just 00:14:10.450 --> 00:14:12.350 like I tell women when a man takes you to an 00:14:12.350 --> 00:14:14.070 expensive restaurant, he not trying to impress 00:14:14.070 --> 00:14:24.649 you. That's how he eats. Right. Now, I did read 00:14:24.649 --> 00:14:27.330 your essay. And like I said, it's a work of art. 00:14:27.490 --> 00:14:29.610 I wish you would turn it into a monologue or 00:14:29.610 --> 00:14:32.629 one woman play. I don't know, but it's brilliant. 00:14:33.110 --> 00:14:37.190 And it's entitled A Letter to Jesse Green of 00:14:37.190 --> 00:14:41.090 the New York Times. I was like, you could have 00:14:41.090 --> 00:14:44.529 interchanged many names and many projects and 00:14:44.529 --> 00:14:47.649 this would have worked for people who have not 00:14:47.649 --> 00:14:49.649 read it yet. And I believe everybody should read 00:14:49.649 --> 00:14:53.279 it. It's on your Twitter page. Which is where 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:57.960 i thought what sparked this response. Well the 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:01.980 way the show is you get a contract will run and 00:15:01.980 --> 00:15:05.159 then they have like a possible extension and 00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:07.919 then because i played that theater before i know 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:10.100 that as long as the ticket sales are good they 00:15:10.100 --> 00:15:13.360 will keep extending. Okay and so that's kind 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:15.960 of always the hope for people when they do anything 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:18.379 off broadway everybody wants to move to broadway 00:15:18.379 --> 00:15:20.120 i think there was certainly talk of that when 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:23.480 we first came here. So there was a date certain 00:15:23.480 --> 00:15:25.840 of closing because they had to pay us through 00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:27.379 that date because that's the contract we signed. 00:15:27.820 --> 00:15:30.419 And then there was another month that they had 00:15:30.419 --> 00:15:32.399 as a possibility because if it doesn't go to 00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:34.100 Broadway, we still have this month that we can 00:15:34.100 --> 00:15:37.399 do. And as I said, that day that I finally got 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:39.779 my groove and was like, OK, I can do this show. 00:15:39.899 --> 00:15:41.639 I know what the show is. I know it in my body. 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:44.120 I know how to not have to sleep all day and then 00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:45.840 do a show because the first few weeks I was sleeping 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:50.769 all day. It took everything I had. And I got 00:15:50.769 --> 00:15:54.269 word that we were closing early. For the world, 00:15:54.429 --> 00:15:57.570 that's an extension. But for us, knowing what 00:15:57.570 --> 00:16:01.389 the contract said, it's an early close. And I 00:16:01.389 --> 00:16:03.909 said, oh, we must have gotten a bad review in 00:16:03.909 --> 00:16:07.490 the New York Times. And so I decided to go and 00:16:07.490 --> 00:16:10.690 read the New York Times review. And look, I've 00:16:10.690 --> 00:16:13.519 gotten plenty of bad reviews in my life. and 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:16.539 if it had just been a bad review and that I felt 00:16:16.539 --> 00:16:19.360 that it you know because I knew we were doing 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:22.139 something that was so rooted in truth that it 00:16:22.139 --> 00:16:25.759 was going to divide people so completely expected 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:28.600 that I'd say that maybe more than half of my 00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:30.659 friends who come see the show don't like it at 00:16:30.659 --> 00:16:32.940 all people like literally we have our friends 00:16:32.940 --> 00:16:34.700 kind of blank as they pretend they don't see 00:16:34.700 --> 00:16:36.440 us or know us when we come out like they don't 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:41.169 like it and that's fine so I chosen to not read 00:16:41.169 --> 00:16:42.690 the reviews cuz i was like you know happy people 00:16:42.690 --> 00:16:44.389 gonna love it happy people gonna hate it that's 00:16:44.389 --> 00:16:46.529 fine you don't need to read this was done i never 00:16:46.529 --> 00:16:48.610 thought that we would close early because we're 00:16:48.610 --> 00:16:51.690 getting full houses every night. And there are 00:16:51.690 --> 00:16:54.070 people who are devastated and sitting there crying 00:16:54.070 --> 00:16:56.649 much like carolina change where it was moving 00:16:56.649 --> 00:16:59.970 people. When i read that review i was like what 00:16:59.970 --> 00:17:02.029 i don't even know what play you saw what are 00:17:02.029 --> 00:17:03.970 you reviewing you reviewing something from your 00:17:03.970 --> 00:17:07.250 mind but this not even what we did as i said 00:17:07.250 --> 00:17:11.119 that's not even what the set look like. So I'm 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:14.099 kind of, I have this, I'd say one of my, I don't 00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:16.819 even know what you'd call it, defense mechanism, 00:17:17.740 --> 00:17:21.359 pet peeve, but I'm a dog with a bone kind of 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:24.920 about certain kinds of details. And I have to 00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:28.720 sometimes catch myself because I can become very 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:31.039 combative over details. And I found it to go, 00:17:31.380 --> 00:17:33.480 you know, the relationship is more important 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:35.660 than you being right about them saying that wrong. 00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:39.440 But particularly with white people, it matters 00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:42.619 because they have the ability to create narratives 00:17:42.619 --> 00:17:45.940 that become reality or reality that people are 00:17:45.940 --> 00:17:50.900 engaged in. And so I just found that every day 00:17:50.900 --> 00:17:53.480 I couldn't stop thinking about that review. And 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:56.180 it was like every moment that I wasn't on stage, 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:59.319 my mind was coming back with the with the comebacks 00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:01.200 and the comebacks and the comebacks. And I just 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:03.400 and one morning I got up and I sat on the toilet 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:07.700 and I wrote 20 pages handwritten. And I was like, 00:18:08.029 --> 00:18:09.730 Oh, I got it. And every time I was off stage, 00:18:09.829 --> 00:18:11.769 some more would come to me. And literally that 00:18:11.769 --> 00:18:14.410 is about half of what I wanted to say. I was 00:18:14.410 --> 00:18:16.509 just like, you gotta, you gotta get it out before 00:18:16.509 --> 00:18:18.809 the show closes. And it's gotta be that people 00:18:18.809 --> 00:18:20.410 can, you know, read it because, and I was like, 00:18:20.410 --> 00:18:22.549 so I had to come up with what are the subheadings. 00:18:22.630 --> 00:18:24.769 So if someone only wants to jump to a sub heading 00:18:24.769 --> 00:18:28.029 and only read that. So it took me what I think 00:18:28.029 --> 00:18:32.210 two weeks to get it done. I could tell it was 00:18:32.210 --> 00:18:37.759 carefully crafted and you were serious. And you 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:40.680 wanted to be very clear. You know how your grandmother 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:44.279 speaks to you. I want to be very clear and what 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:47.759 I'm saying to you. So there's no speculation. 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:51.420 It was brilliant. I sent it to my girlfriends. 00:18:51.579 --> 00:18:57.599 They were like, oh my God, this is amazing. It 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:01.339 was, like I said, you could interchange people 00:19:01.339 --> 00:19:04.700 and situations and it fit because it was such. 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:10.220 a description of the pain of a Black woman and 00:19:10.220 --> 00:19:13.339 our constant defense of ourselves and our women. 00:19:14.099 --> 00:19:17.460 And no matter what we do, we're always defending 00:19:17.460 --> 00:19:20.259 ourselves and trying to prove our worth and our 00:19:20.259 --> 00:19:23.720 value. And it was like you said, I'm done. And 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:26.859 to people who are not, can't hold a candle to 00:19:26.859 --> 00:19:36.240 us. That part. That part. But it was, I read 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:38.940 it a couple of times because I just had to absorb 00:19:38.940 --> 00:19:42.539 what you said because it really applies to every 00:19:42.539 --> 00:19:46.220 black woman's life. No matter what field you're 00:19:46.220 --> 00:19:50.200 in, there's always some white man or white person 00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:54.240 telling you who you are. And we're constantly 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:57.700 trying to say, that's not who we are. And now 00:19:57.700 --> 00:20:03.519 I'm just going to send people this essay. Just 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:05.960 read this. Because I'm tired of defending myself. 00:20:06.019 --> 00:20:09.819 I am who I am. And that's the point we are in 00:20:09.819 --> 00:20:13.680 our society. I am who I am. And ooh, the red 00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:15.400 pill. We'll get to that one second, but I want 00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:21.240 to dig into your 2004 performance at the Tony 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:27.400 Awards. Oh my God. I saw Carolina change as a 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:30.960 younger person, but hearing it now in my 50s 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:36.450 is a whole nother animal. And the song, it was 00:20:36.450 --> 00:20:41.410 just like, I get it now. Parts of ourselves, 00:20:41.869 --> 00:20:48.549 we have to bury and dampen just to survive because 00:20:48.549 --> 00:20:50.730 we have to leave our houses, go out into the 00:20:50.730 --> 00:20:55.910 world with this guard on just to survive. Slam 00:20:55.910 --> 00:20:59.740 that iron down on my heart myself. My soul, yes. 00:21:00.059 --> 00:21:03.640 And the last line, especially hit home for me. 00:21:04.019 --> 00:21:07.980 It said, don't let my sorrow make evil of me. 00:21:08.740 --> 00:21:12.599 That's it. But how? I mean, the whole performance 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:16.460 was stunning and powerful and alive. But how? 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:20.240 How do we not allow this world to turn us bitter 00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:23.920 and sorrow and angry? I think most of us do. 00:21:24.299 --> 00:21:26.680 I think most of us do, because if we didn't, 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:28.720 we'd have killed a whole bunch of people a long 00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:33.319 time ago. Because we up in their houses, we got 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:35.579 their children in our care. So I think that we 00:21:35.579 --> 00:21:39.200 do. I think that we are successful in that. But 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:43.380 I think that that is who we are. I think that 00:21:43.380 --> 00:21:47.500 a deeply divine people and that the earth and 00:21:47.500 --> 00:21:50.259 the divine spirit that made everything. I like 00:21:50.259 --> 00:21:53.440 to use the term netter, which it's the the kush, 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:57.740 chemite, in term for it. I think that that that 00:21:57.740 --> 00:22:00.700 infusion is in us and I think that that is a 00:22:00.700 --> 00:22:04.319 recognition of the impermanence of this world 00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:08.960 and a knowledge that we go on beyond this incarnation 00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:14.069 and that whatever is coming to us is a lesson 00:22:14.069 --> 00:22:16.950 it's a teaching it's preparing us for the next 00:22:16.950 --> 00:22:19.150 thing and that next thing might be in another 00:22:19.150 --> 00:22:21.869 incarnation but i think we have a way of being 00:22:21.869 --> 00:22:24.569 able to bless whatever comes into our lives how 00:22:24.569 --> 00:22:28.329 we turn it into food and music and cook in and 00:22:28.329 --> 00:22:31.410 we can laugh about it and make jokes like we 00:22:31.410 --> 00:22:34.950 turn everything into something beautiful and 00:22:34.950 --> 00:22:39.119 artful. I agree. In this generation that's coming 00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:44.440 up, I see that they have a lot of anger. How 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:48.599 would you say to them to take that anger and 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:51.140 transform it into something artful or beautiful? 00:22:52.500 --> 00:22:56.299 Well, you just would hit that little button there. 00:22:57.140 --> 00:23:02.109 Here's this statement that I found. I think I 00:23:02.109 --> 00:23:04.410 actually came across a version of it in a radio 00:23:04.410 --> 00:23:07.410 video. He does a lot of videos about finance 00:23:07.410 --> 00:23:10.390 and world history and stuff like that. But it 00:23:10.390 --> 00:23:16.190 is this tough times make strong people. Strong 00:23:16.190 --> 00:23:21.990 people make good times. Good times make weak 00:23:21.990 --> 00:23:26.849 people and weak people make tough times. So I 00:23:26.849 --> 00:23:28.829 feel like we are in some tough times. We're going 00:23:28.829 --> 00:23:31.779 to go into some tougher times. And it's because, 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:34.859 and I'm counting myself in it, I have four children 00:23:34.859 --> 00:23:38.460 who, to hear them talk, I'm just the worst mother 00:23:38.460 --> 00:23:40.799 ever and they have had this horrible life and 00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:43.920 poor them. And that's why they leave me with 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:47.099 their bills and run up my credit cards and don't 00:23:47.099 --> 00:23:50.420 speak to me because I was so terrible. And so 00:23:50.420 --> 00:23:53.299 there's a, you know, people who grew up with 00:23:53.299 --> 00:23:55.720 it being good and they feel entitled to that 00:23:55.720 --> 00:23:59.140 goodness. And so now they're taking us into some 00:23:59.140 --> 00:24:01.240 tough times, but the next generation to come 00:24:01.240 --> 00:24:03.319 through them tough times, they will make something 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:06.740 fabulous. I don't know that this generation can 00:24:06.740 --> 00:24:09.240 do it. I don't know that I, in hindsight, when 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:12.200 I look back, like I remember coming up in my 00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:14.259 twenties and stuff and I had so much resentment 00:24:14.259 --> 00:24:17.619 for all the beatings I took and how, you know, 00:24:17.740 --> 00:24:20.599 rough it was. Okay. Now I look back and I go, 00:24:20.660 --> 00:24:23.960 oh, that's why people scare to me. Cause when 00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:27.180 I survived surviving, my mother was like anybody 00:24:27.180 --> 00:24:28.420 that came to my life, I was like, what you gonna 00:24:28.420 --> 00:24:33.140 do that? I ain't already lived through. It's 00:24:33.140 --> 00:24:35.640 not like I wouldn't have wished it on anybody, 00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:42.160 but it's why I was forged in fire and I spared 00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:45.579 my children. All of that and what they have gone 00:24:45.579 --> 00:24:47.720 through and they think is bad. They don't know 00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:51.880 what bad is, but they think it was. I've told 00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:55.259 them all the time. If you get a choice between 00:24:55.259 --> 00:24:58.599 the easy version and the tough version, always 00:24:58.599 --> 00:25:00.900 choose the tough version. Cause it's going to 00:25:00.900 --> 00:25:03.279 prepare you for those times when you don't have 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:09.720 a choice. Yes. 100%. And because our generation 00:25:09.720 --> 00:25:14.359 forged from Jim Crow. we had to make it up and 00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:17.980 make it happen. Exactly. Nothing was given to 00:25:17.980 --> 00:25:22.039 us. Nothing. We didn't have scholarship programs 00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:26.140 for college and we didn't have inheritance. I 00:25:26.140 --> 00:25:28.339 didn't have nobody I didn't even knew to borrow 00:25:28.339 --> 00:25:30.420 nothing from. If I was in trouble and I didn't 00:25:30.420 --> 00:25:33.819 have, well, I wasn't going to have. I just was 00:25:33.819 --> 00:25:35.480 going to not have until I could figure out how 00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:39.779 to get what I needed. Right now I'm 60. realizing 00:25:39.779 --> 00:25:44.099 I have to become the thing I think I need. You 00:25:44.099 --> 00:25:46.000 know, I know a lot of people I've asked for a 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.319 lot of help. And many of those people have said 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:50.180 no, and it's their right to say no. And I'm like, 00:25:50.220 --> 00:25:53.759 oh, I think they have what I need, what I want. 00:25:53.859 --> 00:26:00.539 I need to become them. Yes. And you have become 00:26:00.539 --> 00:26:08.359 a filmmaker to tell your stories. Because. This 00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:12.980 film, The Red Pill, is something to see. I'm 00:26:12.980 --> 00:26:16.700 going to tell you, I will never eat bread from 00:26:16.700 --> 00:26:22.819 somebody else. I just want to let you know that 00:26:22.819 --> 00:26:26.640 at a package, at a store, I'm not eating it. 00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:29.519 So let's talk about, oh, thank you for those 00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:31.579 words of wisdom. I have to give you your flowers 00:26:31.579 --> 00:26:34.440 really quick. You're amazing. Well, thank you. 00:26:34.579 --> 00:26:39.000 When I went into a deep dive, I was like, not 00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:42.000 only as an actress, but just as a human. I'm 00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:45.799 like, it's like listening to James Baldwin when 00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:48.539 you speak because you're so honest in the way 00:26:48.539 --> 00:26:52.299 that you're able to communicate what you're feeling. 00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:55.220 I get it. I don't have to wonder. I don't have 00:26:55.220 --> 00:26:58.180 to like, what is she thinking? It's very clear. 00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:01.539 Where did you get that level of communication 00:27:01.539 --> 00:27:06.289 from? Just asking. Because it's amazing. I think 00:27:06.289 --> 00:27:10.049 that I must have come in this way because I've 00:27:10.049 --> 00:27:15.089 been this way since I was a small child. I questioned 00:27:15.089 --> 00:27:18.630 the people around me from the very early age 00:27:18.630 --> 00:27:22.269 and I was always observing people's behavior 00:27:22.269 --> 00:27:24.309 and the difference between their behavior and 00:27:24.309 --> 00:27:28.099 their words. And so even when I was in elementary 00:27:28.099 --> 00:27:30.519 school, I remember, you know, I was always the 00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:31.940 kid that was going to get beat up or something. 00:27:31.940 --> 00:27:34.440 I could talk my way out to dozens came in handy 00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:36.019 for me because maybe I had to talk myself out 00:27:36.019 --> 00:27:39.859 of many a ass whooping because I would just be 00:27:39.859 --> 00:27:42.099 sitting and listening, you know, and I would 00:27:42.099 --> 00:27:43.319 be like, well, if you're talking about them, 00:27:43.339 --> 00:27:44.900 when they walk away, well, I guess when I walk 00:27:44.900 --> 00:27:46.660 away, you're going to be talking about me. Like 00:27:46.660 --> 00:27:50.380 I'm thinking about that at nine and 10. And I'm 00:27:50.380 --> 00:27:53.539 just sitting and listening and just observing 00:27:53.539 --> 00:27:57.680 how. If people didn't tell the truth, it just 00:27:57.680 --> 00:27:59.779 made so much confusion happen. I don't know if 00:27:59.779 --> 00:28:01.880 you're familiar with this book, which became 00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:03.859 a Broadway show called the curious incident of 00:28:03.859 --> 00:28:05.240 the dog in the night. And it's about a little 00:28:05.240 --> 00:28:07.640 autistic boy. And he just doesn't understand 00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:09.759 why people ever lie because he's like, then how 00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:12.140 are you going to remember what you said and all 00:28:12.140 --> 00:28:14.160 the things that the details that go along with 00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:16.829 it? Like, that's just too much work. But, you 00:28:16.829 --> 00:28:19.309 know, people who are practice liars, they just 00:28:19.309 --> 00:28:21.029 tell a new lie. They just keep making up new 00:28:21.029 --> 00:28:22.910 lines. They don't try to go back and make it 00:28:22.910 --> 00:28:25.049 make any intrinsic sense. They just keep telling 00:28:25.049 --> 00:28:28.089 lies and count on people to not remember. I'm 00:28:28.089 --> 00:28:32.769 that person who remembers. Like, I go pull up 00:28:32.769 --> 00:28:34.589 something Jesse said, like, Jesse, you like an 00:28:34.589 --> 00:28:36.309 angry conversation to get started? Well, here, 00:28:36.410 --> 00:28:45.789 here's one for you. And then you said. Your brain 00:28:45.789 --> 00:28:49.730 is amazing. And it comes through in this movie, 00:28:49.829 --> 00:28:53.549 The Red Pill, because as I'm watching it, I'm 00:28:53.549 --> 00:28:55.789 like, why does she keep showing her t -shirt? 00:28:56.210 --> 00:28:58.250 Like, just why does the camera keep panning this 00:28:58.250 --> 00:29:01.230 lady's t -shirt? But by the time I got to the 00:29:01.230 --> 00:29:06.849 end, I was like, oh. How did you conceive this 00:29:06.849 --> 00:29:10.549 movie? And what was behind your decision to make 00:29:10.549 --> 00:29:13.259 The Red Pill? I've been wanting to make movies 00:29:13.259 --> 00:29:16.700 and be a director for a long time. I know a lot 00:29:16.700 --> 00:29:20.099 of people and asked many of them to give me an 00:29:20.099 --> 00:29:22.700 opportunity. People who had the power to just 00:29:22.700 --> 00:29:26.180 literally give me an opportunity and none of 00:29:26.180 --> 00:29:29.579 them did. Some of them did just say no. Most 00:29:29.579 --> 00:29:33.619 of them just ghosted me. And I remember seeing 00:29:33.619 --> 00:29:35.839 an Ava DuVernay thing saying, you know, I didn't 00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:37.880 go to film school. I didn't do this. I just decided, 00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:39.440 you know, nobody's gonna give it to me. I'm gonna 00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:41.880 give it to myself. And interestingly, she's one 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:43.799 of the people who said no to me, but I saw that 00:29:43.799 --> 00:29:45.700 video and I said, okay, then I got to do what 00:29:45.700 --> 00:29:48.650 Ava did. I got to give it to myself. And I'm 00:29:48.650 --> 00:29:51.349 so grateful for it because I realized that had 00:29:51.349 --> 00:29:53.369 any of those people given me that opportunity, 00:29:53.369 --> 00:29:55.750 I wouldn't have made my own film. I wouldn't 00:29:55.750 --> 00:29:59.970 be a feature filmmaker. I wouldn't know everything 00:29:59.970 --> 00:30:03.049 about how it gets done. I would be working for 00:30:03.049 --> 00:30:07.750 other people. Mm hmm. So it came largely out 00:30:07.750 --> 00:30:11.029 of the fact that I feel like I'm kind of just 00:30:11.029 --> 00:30:14.609 this really curious, open person. So I'm listening 00:30:14.609 --> 00:30:17.329 to a lot of things without judgment and I take 00:30:17.329 --> 00:30:21.259 it in and. 2016, it was just so clear to me from 00:30:21.259 --> 00:30:24.119 all the things I was hearing that 45 was going 00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:28.299 to win. Being a woman in America, knowing a little 00:30:28.299 --> 00:30:30.700 bit of history, I just truly believe women are 00:30:30.700 --> 00:30:33.119 the most hated beings in America on the planet. 00:30:33.380 --> 00:30:35.579 We're more hated than black people, and there 00:30:35.579 --> 00:30:39.200 was just no way a woman could win, period. And 00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:41.259 as we jokingly say, she couldn't beat a black 00:30:41.259 --> 00:30:42.700 man. There was no way she was going to beat a 00:30:42.700 --> 00:30:46.519 white one. I could see that in this movie because 00:30:47.110 --> 00:30:50.450 every time your character said something, nobody 00:30:50.450 --> 00:30:53.789 paid attention. Right? And you were telling them, 00:30:54.549 --> 00:30:56.049 like, throughout the movie, what was about to 00:30:56.049 --> 00:30:59.109 happen. Mm -hmm. Like, no, this is some... We 00:30:59.109 --> 00:31:02.930 need to go. No, it's fine. And it's fine. Everything 00:31:02.930 --> 00:31:05.109 was... No, you're just... And there was always 00:31:05.109 --> 00:31:07.650 a reasoning for you being uncomfortable. It was 00:31:07.650 --> 00:31:13.269 on you. Mm -hmm. I was like, well, if this isn't 00:31:13.269 --> 00:31:18.730 real life... Yeah. And I felt that a lot of black 00:31:18.730 --> 00:31:21.069 women would understand that. You know, there 00:31:21.069 --> 00:31:22.529 were some black women who've seen the movie and 00:31:22.529 --> 00:31:24.930 like, Oh my God, you traumatized me. The violence 00:31:24.930 --> 00:31:27.289 against black women. I'm like violence against 00:31:27.289 --> 00:31:29.630 black women is real. Like that ain't violence 00:31:29.630 --> 00:31:31.630 against you. That's like just pointing out to 00:31:31.630 --> 00:31:33.970 the rest of the world. Our labor is stolen from 00:31:33.970 --> 00:31:36.569 us violently. That's the first image of the movie. 00:31:36.970 --> 00:31:39.950 When I first heard about this movie was you were 00:31:39.950 --> 00:31:42.829 on the Karen Hunter show and she talked about 00:31:42.829 --> 00:31:44.789 that first thing and I was like, I'm not watching 00:31:44.789 --> 00:31:47.559 that. And then when this opportunity came up 00:31:47.559 --> 00:31:53.039 and I saw it, I was like, oh, it was rough, but 00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:55.519 it wasn't to the extreme of what I thought it 00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:56.940 would be. And it was definitely not as rough 00:31:56.940 --> 00:32:00.119 as many horror movies that I've seen. So and 00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:04.720 I understood the symbolism of it. And the idea 00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:08.240 that really struck me throughout the whole film 00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:12.619 was this illusion of this peaceful own people 00:32:12.619 --> 00:32:15.039 and what they're really doing behind the scenes. 00:32:15.289 --> 00:32:18.089 and I thought that was brilliant for you to bring 00:32:18.089 --> 00:32:21.690 that aspect out. It was very well illustrated. 00:32:22.690 --> 00:32:25.690 Thank you. It was very well illustrated because 00:32:25.690 --> 00:32:28.170 by the time you got to the end, I don't want 00:32:28.170 --> 00:32:33.170 to tell the movie. I'll just say when something 00:32:33.170 --> 00:32:37.609 switched position, I fell out laughing. I'm so 00:32:37.609 --> 00:32:41.769 glad you got the laugh. Laying in my bed and 00:32:41.769 --> 00:32:45.609 I fell out laughing. because that was hilarious. 00:32:46.410 --> 00:32:50.609 And it was so hilarious, like a funny reality, 00:32:50.609 --> 00:32:53.950 hilarious. Yes, that's what I was going for. 00:32:54.309 --> 00:33:00.910 It was, I was like, oh my God. To come up with 00:33:00.910 --> 00:33:04.750 that, that is genius. Thank you. I'm glad you 00:33:04.750 --> 00:33:07.869 got it. Because the women definitely were not 00:33:07.869 --> 00:33:15.220 being namaste -ish. But this film, you have showed 00:33:15.220 --> 00:33:20.740 it all over the world and it has been given awards. 00:33:21.500 --> 00:33:24.099 Tell me about your film festival experience. 00:33:24.759 --> 00:33:27.000 Well, I didn't get to do it in person because 00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:30.019 it was COVID. I got to go to one festival and 00:33:30.019 --> 00:33:32.240 get my award in person, and that was a directing 00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:34.960 award at the Me Show Film Festival in Los Angeles. 00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:38.200 Everything else was online. The film's been translated 00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:42.920 into Russian, into Catalonian, into Greek, into 00:33:42.920 --> 00:33:46.039 Spanish. I knew the film would resonate outside 00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:48.460 of the world because I know that people outside 00:33:48.460 --> 00:33:51.380 of America see America far more truthfully than 00:33:51.380 --> 00:33:54.900 Americans see it themselves. So I always knew 00:33:54.900 --> 00:33:58.180 the people outside America would get it. And 00:33:58.180 --> 00:34:01.119 it was just the best creative experience of my 00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:02.599 life. And I'm trying to figure out how to get 00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:05.059 to do it again and do it easier. Because if you 00:34:05.059 --> 00:34:08.019 see from the credits, I did about 100 jobs. Yes, 00:34:08.300 --> 00:34:10.500 I paid for it. I had to do all the jobs that 00:34:10.500 --> 00:34:12.559 I couldn't afford to pay wonderful people to 00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:16.179 do. Yes, it was like you just cut and paste your 00:34:16.179 --> 00:34:18.840 name into the credits because I had to do it 00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:20.820 because it was my baby and I had to get it born. 00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:24.820 And you birthed it and you midwiped it and you 00:34:24.820 --> 00:34:28.360 doctored it. You did all the things. And it was 00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:31.860 just, it really blew my mind. Cause I'm, and 00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:34.619 I'll be honest, I'm not a fan of the horror genre, 00:34:34.619 --> 00:34:39.039 but I love this new get out where they're just 00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:42.139 talking about the horrors of our lives. It's 00:34:42.139 --> 00:34:46.099 like reality. The story could have been put in 00:34:46.099 --> 00:34:48.119 many genres, but the fact that it's in horror, 00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:52.099 it talks about our reality. It's the simplest 00:34:52.099 --> 00:34:55.400 way to put it. And one of the things that was, 00:34:55.699 --> 00:34:57.260 you know, like when I would get certain notes 00:34:57.260 --> 00:34:59.900 back from white people, you know, there's the 00:34:59.900 --> 00:35:01.739 formula for the jump scares and the this and 00:35:01.739 --> 00:35:05.099 the that. And I was like, yeah, that's not what's 00:35:05.099 --> 00:35:09.780 scary for us. The violence is inevitable. We're 00:35:09.780 --> 00:35:12.159 scared when it's good because we know y 'all 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:13.760 gonna fuck that shit up any second now. Like, 00:35:13.780 --> 00:35:16.079 you know, every time we build a community any 00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:18.000 second now, y 'all gonna come and bomb us or 00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:22.630 burn it down. So the scary for us is when it's 00:35:22.630 --> 00:35:24.769 not happening, when it's good, when the violence 00:35:24.769 --> 00:35:26.389 comes, OK, we were waiting for that. Now it's 00:35:26.389 --> 00:35:27.969 over. We're going to get a little peace for a 00:35:27.969 --> 00:35:31.250 while. So even rhythmically, it has a different 00:35:31.250 --> 00:35:34.650 rhythm for me than most horror films because 00:35:34.650 --> 00:35:37.170 I don't think the violence is as much of the 00:35:37.170 --> 00:35:39.730 horror as the anticipation of the violence that 00:35:39.730 --> 00:35:43.650 you know is inevitable. Because we've seen it 00:35:43.650 --> 00:35:46.769 before and they don't do anything new. That's 00:35:46.769 --> 00:35:52.570 right. It's just when not what. Yep. Yes. And 00:35:52.570 --> 00:35:55.449 I totally got that in this movie. And, and Bravo 00:35:55.449 --> 00:35:59.230 to you for having the courage to have this conversation, 00:35:59.829 --> 00:36:01.929 not only in America, but around the world, because 00:36:01.929 --> 00:36:06.150 it's just the truth. Yes. It's the absolute truth. 00:36:06.150 --> 00:36:09.530 And it's not truth to power. It's just, let me 00:36:09.530 --> 00:36:12.630 show you the life that we live. Yes. And then 00:36:12.630 --> 00:36:15.989 maybe you'll understand why we respond to life 00:36:15.989 --> 00:36:18.500 or your respond to you in the way that we do, 00:36:18.659 --> 00:36:22.079 because this is our existence daily, not when 00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:24.699 something big happens. This is like walking out 00:36:24.699 --> 00:36:28.119 of the door. Like I always tell, and not to get 00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:30.360 too deep in this, I tell my friends, my white 00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:33.119 friends, every day I pray that I make it home 00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:38.239 just to go to the grocery store. Yes. Every day 00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:42.820 I pray to come home from work safely. And that 00:36:42.820 --> 00:36:47.800 is a huge burden. to carry every day. I want 00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:51.739 to frolic just like you all do, but I have to 00:36:51.739 --> 00:36:56.079 find those opportunities with my people and really 00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:59.239 understand that this is just how life is. So 00:36:59.239 --> 00:37:01.199 it's not, how can I change the world? It's how 00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:04.420 can I navigate through it? So I say all that 00:37:04.420 --> 00:37:07.619 to say, thank you for your work. Thank you for 00:37:07.619 --> 00:37:10.099 getting it. I really appreciate that. I mean, 00:37:10.420 --> 00:37:13.719 I'm doing what I'm doing to communicate. You 00:37:13.719 --> 00:37:17.000 know, don't mind if it makes someone angry or 00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:19.219 upsetting. I'm willing to have the conversation. 00:37:19.219 --> 00:37:21.639 I want to communicate. I want to learn more. 00:37:22.039 --> 00:37:24.320 If you don't agree, help me understand where 00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:25.980 you're coming from and what your point of view 00:37:25.980 --> 00:37:28.719 is. But I'm trying to express mine because there 00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:30.860 may be somebody else out there who feels they're 00:37:30.860 --> 00:37:32.619 alone in what they're thinking or that what they're 00:37:32.619 --> 00:37:34.960 thinking is weird or crazy or wrong. And so I'm 00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:37.019 like, well, here's mine. You know, I know it's 00:37:37.019 --> 00:37:39.079 not everybody's, but it's mine. And there must 00:37:39.079 --> 00:37:42.900 be some other people who share this. Yes. I think 00:37:42.900 --> 00:37:47.559 we all do. You definitely have a way of communicating 00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:49.960 a Black woman's experience in such a profound 00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:54.119 way that's very clear. I didn't need a thesaurus. 00:37:54.619 --> 00:37:58.199 I see what some people, I didn't need a dictionary. 00:37:58.300 --> 00:38:00.500 It's just very, very clear. This is just how 00:38:00.500 --> 00:38:04.320 it is, plain and simple. And I do hope, and this 00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:06.380 is just my personal thing, I do hope you take 00:38:06.380 --> 00:38:09.119 that essay and make something magic out of it 00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:12.110 because it's brilliant. Thank you. It is absolutely 00:38:12.110 --> 00:38:16.349 brilliant. Now, because you are this wise, profound 00:38:16.349 --> 00:38:19.550 woman, I just wanted to ask some questions about 00:38:19.550 --> 00:38:23.989 life, about black girl life. I wanted to know, 00:38:24.849 --> 00:38:27.710 where do you find time and space to breathe? 00:38:28.329 --> 00:38:34.230 Oh, I make that. One of my grandmothers, my heart 00:38:34.230 --> 00:38:37.170 grandmother. When she was very, very sick in 00:38:37.170 --> 00:38:39.489 a wheelchair and on oxygen and on all kinds of 00:38:39.489 --> 00:38:41.809 medicines, I brought her to me in New York from 00:38:41.809 --> 00:38:44.590 Chicago. I took her off all her medicines, because 00:38:44.590 --> 00:38:46.030 as far as I was concerned, she was about to die 00:38:46.030 --> 00:38:49.550 anyway. I took her off all her medicines. I did 00:38:49.550 --> 00:38:52.269 things that were probably torturous to her. I 00:38:52.269 --> 00:38:55.309 was in my 20s. I was just thinking, I know best. 00:38:56.030 --> 00:38:59.030 And I was put her on juice fasting and had people 00:38:59.030 --> 00:39:01.650 coming over massaging her and reflexology and 00:39:01.650 --> 00:39:04.239 all kinds of stuff. She lost about 40 pounds 00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:06.699 in two months. When she left me, she was running 00:39:06.699 --> 00:39:08.519 me out. She was the grandmother I grew up with 00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:09.940 running me out of my house and telling me this, 00:39:09.980 --> 00:39:12.840 that and the other. I felt that she wasn't healthy 00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:15.460 enough to go home, but you know what? She's a 00:39:15.460 --> 00:39:19.099 grown woman and it was her life. You know, I 00:39:19.099 --> 00:39:23.059 was not her mama and she went home and she died 00:39:23.059 --> 00:39:25.679 pretty quickly thereafter. And it hurt me to 00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:29.760 my heart, but I, I really had the profound realization 00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:33.369 that you cannot. live anybody's life for them, 00:39:33.730 --> 00:39:36.829 save their life. And it's disrespectful to even 00:39:36.829 --> 00:39:39.889 try. And I don't even remember the question that 00:39:39.889 --> 00:39:44.650 took me to that place. Well, it was the perfect 00:39:44.650 --> 00:39:46.349 answer. It was the answer that we're supposed 00:39:46.349 --> 00:39:50.909 to hear that we are not here to fix other people. 00:39:51.210 --> 00:39:53.130 We're just here to support them and what they 00:39:53.130 --> 00:39:55.190 do. And that was a beautiful tribute to your 00:39:55.190 --> 00:39:58.090 grandmother to let her live her life and to do 00:39:58.090 --> 00:40:00.090 all that you could so that you don't have any 00:40:00.090 --> 00:40:03.539 guilt. as she moves on to the next round. Oh, 00:40:03.539 --> 00:40:06.179 I remember what I wanted to say. So all of that, 00:40:06.280 --> 00:40:09.539 I realized that my life was life. Like my life 00:40:09.539 --> 00:40:11.699 was what I had. My grandmother never could ask 00:40:11.699 --> 00:40:14.780 for help. And I said, I'm never going to be a 00:40:14.780 --> 00:40:17.760 person who won't ask for help. So I always ask. 00:40:18.139 --> 00:40:20.960 I ask everyone for help. Now, if they don't give 00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:23.480 it to me, then I just got to go get it for myself. 00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:26.840 So I ask, I don't ask even with the expectation. 00:40:26.900 --> 00:40:28.880 Like if someone actually does help me, cherry 00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:33.320 on top. I've always put my life before anything 00:40:33.320 --> 00:40:36.340 else. Am I happy? Am I enjoying myself? Am I 00:40:36.340 --> 00:40:39.039 comfortable with myself? I always say to people, 00:40:39.539 --> 00:40:41.980 do what you can live with at three o 'clock in 00:40:41.980 --> 00:40:44.500 the morning when you're all alone and all those 00:40:44.500 --> 00:40:46.980 advisors and supporters aren't there. Can you 00:40:46.980 --> 00:40:51.679 live with that decision? That's what has sustained 00:40:51.679 --> 00:40:53.860 me. You know, people will be like, there was 00:40:53.860 --> 00:40:55.820 one year I lived with one of my children and 00:40:55.820 --> 00:40:57.760 at the end of two years of living with him, I 00:40:57.760 --> 00:41:00.900 thought I was going to die. Physically debilitated 00:41:00.900 --> 00:41:03.099 ended up developing a life threatening condition. 00:41:03.800 --> 00:41:05.780 I took six weeks and went to Bali. People were 00:41:05.780 --> 00:41:06.860 like, how you gonna do that? It's the middle 00:41:06.860 --> 00:41:08.760 of the pilot season. I was like, you know what? 00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:10.900 If a pilot came up, I couldn't do it. I need 00:41:10.900 --> 00:41:12.739 to go take care of myself. I need five hours 00:41:12.739 --> 00:41:14.639 of massage a day. People tell me in Bali, I can 00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:16.760 get a massage for eight to $10. I'm gonna go 00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:19.199 have five hours of massage for six weeks. And 00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:22.099 that's really what I do. I'm not sitting around 00:41:22.099 --> 00:41:26.219 waiting for some opportunity. I am living. in 00:41:26.219 --> 00:41:29.199 gratitude and finding ways to be in gratitude 00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:33.420 as often as possible, because I truly know that 00:41:33.420 --> 00:41:36.039 tomorrow is not promised. So I try to live every 00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:38.460 day so that it's a good day to die. Like, did 00:41:38.460 --> 00:41:40.579 I, am I complete? Did I say everything I need 00:41:40.579 --> 00:41:42.860 to do? You know, if I think of somebody, I reach 00:41:42.860 --> 00:41:45.440 out to them because you don't know when they're 00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:47.599 going to go either. That's life in a nutshell. 00:41:48.420 --> 00:41:50.559 And the fact that you asked for help, that's 00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:53.139 a huge problem for Black women, because we're 00:41:53.139 --> 00:41:57.119 the first ones to say, I got it. I got it. Well, 00:41:57.179 --> 00:41:59.000 you know, I will jump on. I got it. You tell 00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:01.039 me no. That's like, well, I'm going to, you know, 00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:05.900 I definitely, but I'm going to ask. I'm going 00:42:05.900 --> 00:42:10.199 to ask. But the asking is a big thing for us. 00:42:10.639 --> 00:42:12.679 Even executives that have a staff will say, I 00:42:12.679 --> 00:42:17.440 got it, but you have a whole staff. Well, you 00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:19.659 know, I took this wonderful class with a teacher 00:42:19.659 --> 00:42:22.719 named Kasia Urbaniak at the Academy and it's 00:42:22.710 --> 00:42:25.530 sort of woman empowerment thing. And she really 00:42:25.530 --> 00:42:29.230 taught me about was the submissive dom thing. 00:42:29.630 --> 00:42:32.030 And that was having taken her classes, what also 00:42:32.030 --> 00:42:34.730 allowed me to appreciate slave play. And this 00:42:34.730 --> 00:42:37.230 is what people don't understand. And it's that 00:42:37.230 --> 00:42:40.889 way that capitalist social, you know, settler 00:42:40.889 --> 00:42:43.690 colonial capitalism takes words and uses them 00:42:43.690 --> 00:42:45.409 to mean the exact opposite of what they really 00:42:45.409 --> 00:42:47.809 do mean. Like calling black people minorities 00:42:47.809 --> 00:42:49.690 when we're like the global majority on the planet, 00:42:49.809 --> 00:42:57.360 you know, the dom. The Dom is the servant. So 00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:00.719 most Black women are Doms. We are serving everyone. 00:43:01.219 --> 00:43:04.199 The submissive has the power. The submissive 00:43:04.199 --> 00:43:08.199 is completely narcissistically focused on themselves 00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:11.519 and attracting what they need and want. And the 00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:15.519 Dom serves that. And so learning how to switch 00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:19.519 between Dom energy and sub energy has been a 00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:24.570 big thing in my life. to decide when I don't 00:43:24.570 --> 00:43:30.329 want to be doming for somebody. I'm not here 00:43:30.329 --> 00:43:33.130 to serve you, not going to do that. If it's a 00:43:33.130 --> 00:43:35.230 choice between my happiness and yours, I'm choosing 00:43:35.230 --> 00:43:43.110 me. Wow. It's like when I tell my goddaughter's 00:43:43.110 --> 00:43:49.599 queen, sit down and get served. That's a submissive. 00:43:49.599 --> 00:43:53.480 That's the sub. Oh, wow. I never even thought 00:43:53.480 --> 00:43:56.760 about that. That's submissive. You're going to 00:43:56.760 --> 00:43:58.719 have me thinking about that all weekend. Oh, 00:43:58.780 --> 00:44:02.500 look up Kasia. Her work is very profound. And 00:44:02.500 --> 00:44:04.920 that's about someone sitting with themselves 00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:06.900 and going, what feels good to me? That doesn't 00:44:06.900 --> 00:44:10.119 feel good. Don't want that. Nope. And only accepting 00:44:10.119 --> 00:44:15.309 and receiving what feels good. That is so profound 00:44:15.309 --> 00:44:18.289 because that is the healing that I think we need 00:44:18.289 --> 00:44:21.690 as Black women because we were conditioned and 00:44:21.690 --> 00:44:25.969 raised to serve others. To take it, yes. And 00:44:25.969 --> 00:44:30.789 to serve others. Oh, you just blew my mind. You 00:44:30.789 --> 00:44:33.369 just literally blew my mind. That's incredible. 00:44:33.530 --> 00:44:35.289 What's the lady's name again? Can you spell it 00:44:35.289 --> 00:44:41.429 for me? K -A -S -I -A Urbaniak. U -R -B -A -N 00:44:41.429 --> 00:44:45.900 -I -A -K. I will definitely be looking her work 00:44:45.900 --> 00:44:49.860 up. That is a very profound perspective. Thank 00:44:49.860 --> 00:44:53.960 you for sharing that. Oh, yeah. And that's amazing. 00:44:54.360 --> 00:44:58.480 And six weeks in Bali. Yeah. Sign me up for that 00:44:58.480 --> 00:45:01.579 one. You know, it's you probably spend less money 00:45:01.579 --> 00:45:04.159 there than you spent in America. Yes. I always 00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:06.599 tell people traveling abroad is cheaper than 00:45:06.599 --> 00:45:09.980 going to New York for a week. Sometimes just 00:45:09.980 --> 00:45:14.230 staying home in your house. So as we close out, 00:45:14.329 --> 00:45:17.809 I have one final question to ask you and what 00:45:17.809 --> 00:45:20.570 is your hope for the future for black women? 00:45:22.289 --> 00:45:26.269 I believe that the world is evolving towards 00:45:26.269 --> 00:45:29.989 higher levels of everything. So I think it is 00:45:29.989 --> 00:45:33.570 automatically going to get better. And I think 00:45:33.570 --> 00:45:40.570 what I hope for everyone is that we grow in trusting 00:45:40.570 --> 00:45:44.750 our instinct. because it is always right for 00:45:44.750 --> 00:45:48.250 us, even when it's wrong. If it's wrong and you 00:45:48.250 --> 00:45:50.610 followed it, you're still building your instinctive, 00:45:50.610 --> 00:45:53.230 your trust in your instinctive self. And that 00:45:53.230 --> 00:45:55.230 is the most important thing to do because you 00:45:55.230 --> 00:46:01.210 got to live with you forever. Yes. I am truly 00:46:01.210 --> 00:46:06.889 my favorite company. Can you please put that 00:46:06.889 --> 00:46:11.579 on a t -shirt? I enjoy myself more than I enjoy 00:46:11.579 --> 00:46:14.400 anybody else in the world. So being alone, being 00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:20.019 by myself, I am so for it. That doesn't mean 00:46:20.019 --> 00:46:21.440 that sometimes I don't want to be around other 00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:24.679 people, but like the pandemic was fabulous to 00:46:24.679 --> 00:46:32.880 me. Okay. Quietly. Yes. Well, you have been a 00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:35.320 pleasure and it has been an honor to speak with 00:46:35.320 --> 00:46:39.340 you. Thank you so much. I will ring your name. 00:46:39.460 --> 00:46:42.059 I would like she needs to be up on the top of 00:46:42.059 --> 00:46:45.440 the list of all the people. Oh, thank you. I 00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:48.480 appreciate that so much. It's very kind. And 00:46:48.480 --> 00:46:52.500 how can people find you and know about your latest 00:46:52.500 --> 00:46:55.719 projects? You know, I'm on all the social medias. 00:46:55.949 --> 00:46:59.989 At Tanya Pinkins on Twitter, Instagram, what 00:46:59.989 --> 00:47:03.730 other one? LinkedIn. I have a website and I try 00:47:03.730 --> 00:47:05.530 to keep it up to date. I'm not real good at that, 00:47:05.530 --> 00:47:09.750 but I do try and yeah. And everybody she's all 00:47:09.750 --> 00:47:12.050 over YouTube. Just put her name in the search 00:47:12.050 --> 00:47:15.960 engine and you will find you'll find. great interviews, 00:47:16.179 --> 00:47:18.940 you will find great performances, and you will 00:47:18.940 --> 00:47:22.880 get to dive deep into her world like I did, and 00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:25.360 you will thoroughly enjoy it. Thank you, Miss 00:47:25.360 --> 00:47:27.760 Pinkins. You got to try the Red Pill game and 00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:29.599 see if you could survive the world of Red Pill. 00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:32.199 It's on the Red Pill website. Beautiful. Thank 00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:34.619 you again, and thank you for joining us on the 00:47:34.619 --> 00:47:39.360 Black Women Amplified podcast. Thank you for 00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:42.099 listening to Black Women Amplified. We hope you 00:47:42.099 --> 00:47:44.849 enjoyed the show. Be sure to subscribe and log 00:47:44.849 --> 00:47:48.369 on to blackwomenamplified .com for more information. 00:47:48.949 --> 00:47:49.730 Keep shining.