you Hello fellow humans and welcome to e pluribus
unum where we do a deep dive into the hive mind
I am Eric and I'm Josh and welcome to episode
3 where we cover pluribus grenade an Ominous
title for this episode. What do you think? Yeah,
I think it's a little ominous and it ties very
well into the ending and I think it means more
than it shows on the surface I think as well
So you don't think it's too on the nose, so to
speak? I don't think so, no. All right, all right.
Well, just as an overview, I appreciated this
episode, I think maybe more than 50 other percent
of the audience out there. I feel like what I
read sounded as though this episode might've
been a little divisive. What do you think about
that? I could see why when I was... Initially
thinking about this episode, I felt that it was
definitely more about exploring the themes as
opposed to moving the plot forward. So I could
see why folks who are really intrigued by the
mystery and really want answers weren't as happy
with this episode, but I quite liked it at the
end of the day. But before we sort of jump in,
I think we need to have a bit of an important.
correction from episode one and two for us. Okay.
We have been pronouncing the lead actress as
Rhea. And it turns out that her name is actually
pronounced Ray. Ray Sehorn is the name of Carol
in real life. So you're saying it's Ray Sehorn.
Ray Sehorn, yeah. Right. I guess that makes sense,
R -H. Okay. I can invest in that and I feel like
a complete idiot. So, you know, there's also
that. I feel like we're an old school newspaper
and we have to print an apology or something
saying that we misquoted in a previous issue.
So maybe that's it. It also just proves that
guess what, we're human and we're not part of
the hive mind. And maybe that is a way we can
test ourselves to ensure that we're not part
of that hive mind. The hive mind would have known
how to pronounce that correctly. Yeah, but they
probably wouldn't have known about some pretty
obvious other things, you know, and I think that
those ideas and thoughts are explored in this
episode, as you mentioned before. You know, I'll
say this, you mentioned episodes one and two
being a character study. I think the quote unquote
slowdown of this episode is that it is a character
study. It is literally us learning more about
Carol and almost nothing else. I thought it fit
well enough in the structure of the show and
it didn't do what maybe somebody might have expected,
which is to continue to ramp up the action, so
to speak, in the show or the mystery or anything
like that. But I think it's smart to do it. I
think it also shows us that it's still not the
show that we might have expected it to be. I
agree, yeah. And I think if you're familiar with
Vince Gilligan's work, you know that there are
going to be episodes like this where he'll not
necessarily hit the pause button, but he'll take
his time and allow a character to have a little
bit of breathing room and explore their background
and explore exactly how they're feeling within
this moment. Because the characters themselves
are explorations of the theme of not only the
episode, but the series as well. We've been talking
about how much we love his cold opens and he
literally gives us a cold open. Yeah, I like
that quite a bit and He does a good job in this
opening scene showing that Carol is very much
the same character post -joining as she was pre
-joining Her wife brings her to this ice palace
hotel. That seems very cool. Honestly, it'd be
an amazing trip And it seems like the reason
that they're at this sort of getaway is because
Carol's book numbers are coming in and they want
to sort of get away. Yeah, the fray. Exactly.
Exactly. She's as anxious about how successful
she can be with her writing as she is angry at
the world. One side of it is this anxiety of,
is this good enough? Do enough people like it?
Is it high enough on the list? That sort of thing.
And then on the other side, it's like, why am
I in this? with a bed literally made of ice and
the view through the window of the Aurora Borealis
looks like a screen saver. And you know, a lot
of what she's saying here is repeated later in
the episode, post -June. Absolutely. She doesn't
seem like she wants change or anything new. She
wants what she is comfortable with. She's very
much likes what she likes and she wants what
she wants. And quite honestly, she can be a little
annoying when she doesn't get exactly what she
wants and have things exactly how she likes,
which I think speaks to the relationship with
her wife slash manager because her, her wife
is essentially rankling her throughout so much
of their relationship that we've seen. It's in
their own personal lives even. Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah. She's, uh, wrangling the talent even when
they're off the clock. Well, I think the key
takeaways from this opening sequence where we
see Carol and Helen having a vacation in Norway
is to show us that Carol was a curmudgeon before
and is now still a curmudgeon as we know her
in the context of the joining. The second thing
I thought was It's put up as a sort of a throwaway
line is to say I froze my eggs including the
yolks so she mentions having had her eggs frozen
and This is colder than that or something along
those lines But she has the thought to have her
eggs frozen and that she has the thought that
she might want a child Apparently is the thought
that I have in this and I find that really interesting
because I don't think her character exudes that
and I'm wondering if that's going to play into
this later in some strange way. I can only assume
it for me in my perspective of this thing in
a maybe terrifying or not great way. That leads
us to the next scene where. She's sitting in
the back of the plane again. And instead of having
the TGI Fridays lady flying the plane, we have
two very professional, very seasoned pilots in
the front seat. And she and Zosia are apparently
headed back to Albuquerque. And she finds out
that there is another immune, as you've been
calling them, doesn't speak English and has been
avoiding the joined as they try to reach out
to him. And Carol says, well, let me give him
a call. Even though he only speaks Spanish, let
me give it a try. And this scene is, again, funny
and unnerving at the same time. And I think this
highlights a big theme in this episode, which
is loneliness, especially for Carol. Even at
this point, she seems to have alienated the first
five immune that she's met. And it's almost as
if she sees a kindred spirit in this 13th immune.
that wants nothing to do with the joint. It's
the only other one that she's found that seems
to think like she does. And these multiple calls
out to them while they're on the plane here.
And it's multiple calls because he keeps hanging
up on her. And so she'll hand the phone back
over to Zosia and dial him again. And it happens
more than half a dozen times, but it's like this
bit almost that's happening as she's slowly peeling
away the layers of this Paraguay onion. Exactly.
Well, the scene ends with her not really even
getting in touch with him. He curses at her in
the next last call. She makes his OSHA call him
again. And when she returns the call, she just
curses at him in Spanish and hangs up the phone.
Like, I got the last word on this situation.
So I found that to be really funny. And it wouldn't
surprise me if that doesn't endear him to her.
And he's more like, oh, you're obviously not
a joined. Now I want to talk to you. more like
I am. And I thought that was again funny and
quite brilliant. At this point she gets back
home and she sees that she's received a package
and the package is from Helen and it is a massage
gun that Carol had tried at the airport and Helen
just bought it for her because she wanted to
give her a surprise gift when they returned back
from the book tour. And of course this just ends
up sparking Carol's grief again. Once again she
goes after Zosia and says, I told you to stop
using Helen. You can't use Helen. Zosia has to
explain this isn't us using Helen. This is Helen.
This is the last thing she sent to you. And they
constantly have to re -describe the fact that
they aren't using Helen's memories against her
that. any information they have they're using
from other sources. You talked about nodes in
the last episode. It's another node. It's the
maid who cleans the refrigerator. She knew how
much you had in the fridge and all that kind
of stuff. Yeah, and we even have a scene here
that is a little heart -wrenching, I think. She
calls Zosia, and as she's looking out the window,
she's looking at Helen's grave in the backyard,
and she says, forget everything you know about
Helen. And essentially hangs up on Zosia because
really all that Carol has now is her memory of
Helen and feels like it's been stolen by the
hive mind because they have her consciousness,
if you want to call it that. So she is almost
desperate to carve that back from the hive mind.
And I think that's sort of impossible. I don't
think the hive mind has the ability to forget
everything they know about Helen. All she does
have left is that memory and even that. she feels
has been taken away by the hive mind. And we
see her over the next day or so rotting away
on the couch watching Golden Girls, which for
a scene that is someone's laying down on a couch
and watching a television show, it's immaculately
shot. Some of the scenes where. We're looking
at Carol and the television is reflecting in
a disc that's laying down on the table and we
get to see Betty White's face as she's delivering
her lines in Golden Girls. One of the episodes
of the Golden Girls is called Dorothy's New Friend.
And this is the one where she's telling the story
about the woman who couldn't smile and had to
stand on her head in order for it to look like
she was smiling. The only smile we've seen on
her face ever is a sarcastic smile. At this point
in the story, Carol can do anything. She can
go anywhere. She can meet anyone that she wants.
She can have any meal that she would like. And
she chooses at that point to stay home and dive
into her golden girls. And as we see in a moment
here, she chooses not to eat this wonderful breakfast
that the joint has delivered to her. She wants
to go to her own grocery store and she wants
to live as much as she can in that old world.
She even says on the call with his OSHA. I'm
a very independent person. She does end up going
to the sprouts grocery store to pick up her own
meal so she can cook for herself because she,
she truly believes that she's this independent
person. It goes to show you how. much of an illusion
independence really is and in modern life and
and how Carol isn't as independent as she really
wished that she could be because there's nothing
in this grocery store. She doesn't grow her own
meals and she doesn't slaughter her own animals
for for her bacon in the morning. That independence
is kind of shoved in her face has a bit of an
illusion where you always needed the help of
others. You always needed a stocked grocery store
and you always needed Helen to prop you up because
you were constantly sort of floundering a little
bit. And without that rudder that was Helen and
without that ecosystem of things like a grocery
store, are you really as independent as you really
wanted to believe? Yeah, I think you bring up
a great point. I would say it's one I didn't
necessarily catch and I agree wholeheartedly
with you. So essentially she's at home and they
know how much food she does or doesn't have and
they deliver this classic Looney Tunes cartoon
of the silver platter with the silver dome over
the top. Again played to a great fair with seeing
her reflection in the dome as she goes to lift
and you see this gorgeous plate of food and she's
like, I don't want your food. I just want to
be able to go to my own grocery store and go
get my own groceries. And they're like, yeah,
go ahead. without saying anything more really.
She hauls her butt into town and she's ready
to go into Sprouts, which is a real store. And
when you see this overhead shot of the store,
the entire store is empty. All of the produce,
all of the groceries are all completely gone.
It looks like a brand new store. And she walks
in just in shock. And what does she do? She goes
to the nearest phone. picks it up and presses
zero and hops on there and goes, hi Carol, how
can we help you? And she says, I want my store
back. And she says over the phone, we're on our
way. And this is where I have a question. Either
they knew she was coming to the grocery store
specifically and they had these trucks. close
by, fully stocked with the entire store, waiting
for her to make this decision so that they can
come and show her, I would say, their power or
their efficiency, let's say, be more direct with
what the themes are in the show. And we get this
beautiful sequence, once again, of a ballet of
vehicles, this ballet of trucks rolls in in this
very eloquent way. These people bounce out of
these trucks. in a very timed and accurate way,
and they go to refill the entire store within
a matter of moments. As a matter of fact, I was
hoping, because there's a time stamp at the beginning
and a time stamp at the end, I was praying it
was 78 minutes, because the original signal from
episode one was 78 seconds apart. And so since
that was 78 seconds apart, I was hoping this
was going to be 78 minutes later, and that there
would be this neat little efficiency there. But
it wasn't. It was 68 minutes. You know, take
that for what it is. But 68 minutes later, she
has her sprouts back. To reflect on my question
too, and it's more a production question than
it is an inside the television show question.
Did the hive mind predict that she was going
to be at that sprouts and knew that they had
to show up in order to restock the store in 68
minutes or? Are we to believe that the world
is so efficient that if she were to think this
without them knowing it that within 68 minutes,
they could have everything back on the shelves.
The only way this works is if you knew she was
going to do it. There's no other way. So it just,
it made me question the structure of how these
things happen. I think it plays into a question
that we had back in episode two, which is can
the hive mind be deceptive and. To what extent
can they be deceptive? Because social responds
to her on the phone at the grocery store that,
oh, we've, we've taken all of the supplies so
that we can have them in a central distribution
center and we can use them to peak efficiency.
But if that was the case, could they stock an
entire grocery store in 68 minutes? It seems
almost impossible. So I think - It is impossible
because she literally says, when do you think
you're going to be here? Or when should I come
back here in the next few days? And she says,
we're already mobilized. And it's as though she
turns around and looks out the door and there's
the first truck. And so it makes me think of
magic. And in magic, you know a handful of card
tricks. It's called a push. As a magician, you
already know what they're going to choose. making
that choice for them. So I'm wondering if they
are so efficient that they already know, and
this goes back to the free will question again,
they already know the decisions she's going to
be making from this point into. a certain point
into the future, they're that efficient that
they already know that she's gonna wake up hungry,
that she's probably not gonna take this meal
that we just served her, that she's probably
gonna want her comfort of going back to the grocery
store just as much as she wants the comfort of
the Golden Girls. And so we're ready. But I wanted
to bring that up because as a person that looks
at the details, they were there immediately.
And that seems impossible to me. One thing I
want to mention at this point as well is to talk
a little bit about the visual language of not
only this episode, but the series as a whole.
So often when we see Carol, something is obscuring
our vision of Carol. When she opens the refrigerator,
we have all of the ingredients and food that's
in the refrigerator obscuring our vision of Carol.
And she's almost confined to a small box in the
middle, maybe just 25 % of the frame. Or when
she's laying on the couch, all of the things
that are on the coffee table are obscuring her
body as she's in goblin mode on the couch and
watching her show. And even in the grocery store
itself, when she initially walks in, it's a very
zoomed out. shot and we see the entire grocery
store and we just see a little bit of Carol over
here on the side really showing how expansive
and empty this grocery store is. So I think he's
trying to say things with the blocking and the
cinematography of how lonely Carol is and how
confined she is. So it plays into the loneliness
and plays into the almost prisoner like aspect
of how Carol's feeling at the moment. It reminds
me of the observations we saw in episode one
and two where the greater action is happening
in the background. Even though it's a little
blurred out, I'm paying attention to the family
that's standing in the background, not Carol
talking to the other four that aren't assimilated
into the joint. I think he's showing us a few
things here. It brings a lot of clever intent
to each of these shots. make her way through
sprouts, and she does her shopping, and she makes
her way out. I found it fascinating that rather
than go home and cook herself a well -deserved
meal, what does she eat? She eats a microwave
meal. And what's more lonely, especially in television
or film, than eating a microwaved meal? It was
almost the antithesis of what she had gone out
there for in the first place, other than to flex.
To flex what she believed was her independence
in her individuality and her life as her own.
I thought it was funny and probably honestly,
not much different than what I would have done.
I would have fully gone grocery shopping and
I would have grabbed my Tuesday night microwave
meal and eaten that rather than made chicken
gumbo or something like that. I thought that
played well into us learning even more about
her. Once she's had her dinner and she lies down
on the couch, her house completely loses power.
And she's like, oh my God, what's next or what's
going on? Very quickly she regains power, but
she looks out the window and sees that the rest
of the city is losing power. And she jumps on
the horn and she says, what is going on? And
what we discover is it's just another efficiency
measure. And she says, there's no crime. There's
no reason to have lights on at night. We're not
out there working except for the essentials.
It is very efficient for us to turn all of the
electricity off. So she's put off by this. I
get the efficiency, but this is also still terrifying.
It's that subtle terror. They have that much
power that they can just shut an entire city
down within seconds. She says, Carol, if you'd
like, we could turn the city back on for you.
Like they would forego the efficiency in order
to keep Carol happy if she felt like she needed
a city full of lights. And this starts the...
next kind of tense conversation that she has
with Zosia. So this is literally Carol's worst
week ever, right? And Zosia and the joint are
just wanting to please her. And they said, is
there anything that we can do to make you happy?
She says, there's nothing wrong with me that
a fucking hand grenade wouldn't fix. And that
is a line. It's also, again, any worthy delivery
here. I think this goes back to your thoughts
on the first and second episode, because they
are joined, they are a hive mind, do we lose
certain things about humanity? And this is illustrative
of, do we potentially lose our sarcasm when we
become joined? They clearly don't understand
the sarcasm. So yeah, something is still lost
becoming one of the joined. And one of the things
is, sarcasm and being able to understand the
very human aspect of what sarcasm really is,
saying exactly what you don't mean to exemplify
what you actually mean here. They say they're
not alien. They say that they are still human.
It's just, we have this rewrite. But if you rewrite
that, doesn't that rewrite humanity and define
humanity in a different way? Because if you lose
things like sarcasm or critical thinking. It
takes away your individuality. It seems to take
away what you believe is a freedom of choice.
But here we have her saying, nothing a hand grenade
wouldn't fix. And within moments, Zosia shows
up on the front step with a live hand grenade.
And she said, we thought you were probably being
sarcastic, but we didn't want to take the chance.
They're saying that they would rather hand you
a live hand grenade than to upset you. Now, it's
terrifying in a different way. If everybody has
all the same skill set, you could turn everybody
into a military expert and we can go after these
13 people and it's over. In this instance, it's
flipped on its head. Now that we have this assimilation
and the assimilation has homogenized humanity,
in a way that washes away sarcasm and critical
thinking. Now they're really freaking dangerous.
So now we have a different terror factor that's
added to it. And I find that the real twist and
that is where the real divide comes from me in
this episode. It's not that it's a character
study and it's sort of tonally different than
the first two episodes. Now they're just dangerous
because it's almost like they're children and
they even know the consequences. So that becomes
almost even more terrifying. I can't imagine
that we could really last all of that long under
those circumstances, in my opinion. This leads
us into the next scene, which was my favorite
scene of the episode. These next couple scenes
are really spectacular in my mind, but we see
Carol try to reach out of her loneliness and
she invites Zosia in for a drink after Zosia
has delivered this hand grenade to her. And I
believe Carol even brings it up, you know, if
Zosia has a drink, does the hive mind get drunk?
Zosia replies, that's not how it works. And this
brings me back to what I was talking about in
episode one and two, and that's language. As
they're having this conversation, we see that
Zosia really doesn't even have the ability to
have a normal human conversation with the hive
mind. They're so used to. not even speaking,
they communicate throughout this psychic glue
or what have you. And conversation is foreign
to them essentially. I like where you're going
with this. Exactly, and Zosia, really all she
can do is spout information to Carol. Almost
like you're talking to chat GBT, going back to
what you had mentioned last episode of it being
almost computer -like, the hive mind, because
- It's 110 % that, you're absolutely right. All
she can really say is, well, the, this alcohol
tastes this way because it's derived from these
two separate ingredients and it has nothing to
do with what Carol's trying to talk about. It's
just, that is all that Zosia can supply in this
moment. And you can even see how that might have
the opposite effect of alleviating some of Carol's
loneliness. It is more unnerving. I agree with
you, yeah. And it goes back to the other Immunes
as well where they are very much with conversating
with their loved ones as if they were a chat
GPT or what have you and even highlighting some
of the things that are happening in the real
world now where people are so lonely that they
reach out to a chat GPT and enter into a relationship
with an AI large language model. That's very
much how The hive mind speaks very similar to
a large language model when we cut back to Carol
What we see obstructing Carol in our view is
the hand grenade sitting on the table That's
in the foreground and Carol is in the background
sipping her drink You bring up a great point
to and this is off show, but the marketing of
the show includes conversations with Vince about
his opinions on AI And he's like a lot of directors
and creators. He's adamantly against AI in all
forms. And people have asked, is part of this
story your thoughts and analysis on AI? And in
the way that you're describing it, you could
very easily say yes. I'm waiting for the moment
when Carol asks anyone that is joined how they
feel about something, how they think about something,
what they believe. about something, because as
you pointed out, they're all about the facts.
But we hear nothing of this new version of humanity
that has anything to talk about feelings, emotions,
thoughts. And it is exemplified in this conversation
she has with Zosia in the living room where Zosia
only adds these frankly trivial and boring facts.
to the conversations. But inside of this, Carol
does ask the questions we would ask as viewers.
You know, you say you're working on this formula
to bring me into the fold here. How much longer?
Days? Weeks? Months? And Zosia can't answer that
question. And then she asks, when it comes time
that you think that you can bring me into the
fold or the other unjoined, do we have a choice?
And once again, Zosia brings up the old biological
imperative. And she says, if you were to see
someone drowning, wouldn't you throw them a life
preserver? You wouldn't even think about it.
You would just do it as though that's the reasoning
or thought behind the hive mind trying to quote
unquote save Carol and the other 12. I think
we almost have to have a moment in every episode
where she gets upset, right? And then it brings
the tension up quite a bit. And what does she
do? She grabs this grenade. And I don't know
if you were thinking the same thing I was. Were
they just trying to show up to appease her sort
of as Zosia had said when she arrived or are
they frankly foolish enough to actually give
Carol a live grenade? Carol's holding the grenade
and she pulls the pin and then she lets the clip
go. And Zosia goes, if you don't mind. And then
grabs the grenade, tackles her. throws the grenade
out the window, but turns her back to the grenade
to protect Carol. And a great small detail that
I found in this particular scene as she's finally
connecting with Zosia and worried about her safety
is you hear sirens in the background and you
realize that there's no need for the hive mind
to have sirens. The sirens are there purely to
let Carol know that the hive mind is on the way
and that they're coming to help the sirens are
there specifically to Calm Carol and to communicate
with Carol and let her know that that they're
on their way and that they're coming to Hopefully
save Zosia Now I think that that's absolutely
brilliant. I did not catch that so that that
would be performative For her is is absolutely
amazing and had a lot of forethought Zosia's
back is what's damaged by the grenade and And
she's calling to the air again, like, anybody
here? Can anybody hear me? And Zosia just has
this creepy smile and says, oh, don't worry,
Carol, they're on their way. As she's bleeding
out a little bit here, instead of having a TGI
Fridays pilot, we now have a DHL representative,
a package delivery guy giving her the breakdown
of what Zosia's physical condition is after the
grenade. It's almost as if he's delivering the
good news that Zosia is alive and well. At this
point, she's talking to the DHL guy and they're
very chummy, all these creatures I'll call them.
More chummy than anybody I've ever known that
was even happy in their lives. So it's cartoonish
in an odd way. And she's having an in -depth
conversation with the DHL guy. And she says,
let's get back to the fact that you guys gave
me a live grenade. Can we talk about that? And
he simply says, we would move the heavens and
the earth to make you happy, Carol. If I wanted
a bazooka, he says, yes. If I wanted a tank,
he says, yes. It becomes more and more reluctant
as he answers. And when she gets to the end and
she says, if I wanted an atom bomb, he says,
well, we would think very deeply about why you
might want an atom bomb. And she goes, but if
I asked for one, would you give it to me? And
he goes, yes. And now for me, the terror has
shifted more from them being manipulative to
actually not only have we lost our sarcasm, we've
also lost our critical thinking and that as a
hive mind, we can't go, obviously we shouldn't
give a carol. a live hand grenade or a nuclear
weapon, but they do it anyway. And then you have
this look on Carol's face as they close out the
shot. She goes from sort of disbelief and wonder
to calculation and realizing, how can I exploit
this? How can I get this to work to my favor?
And then I would take it a step further to ask,
can she compel the joined to actually pursue
the opposite and ask them to reverse this? I
think that that facial expression at the end
says a lot. It makes you wonder what is the realization
that that Carol came to? Can Carol force them
in some way to begin to make decisions for themselves
or can she force them in some way? If what she
wants is for the joining not to happen, can she
force them to revert the joining? You also bring
up sort of the consent without understanding,
right? They can't comprehend why she wants something.
They literally lack the emotional context. They
don't go, oh, she's being sarcastic because she's
extremely angry. And that's important to this
show. It's gonna play out in a very interesting
way, I'm sure. Do you have any final thoughts
on the episode before we talk about episode four?
All I can say is I believe that I am as excited
as I was by the end of episode one at this point.
So you weren't put off by the third episode being
a character study and not necessarily moving
the story forward. I wasn't, no. I was satisfied
in steeping myself in the themes of the story.
Well, I think this will play out wonderfully.
We want to thank everybody for listening to E
Pluribus Uno, your favorite podcast on the show.
pluribus. We will definitely be taking a hard
look at episode four, seeing how this thing lines
up with the previous episodes and trying to come
up with theories on exactly which direction everybody's
going. Once again, I'm Eric and I'm Josh and
thanks again for listening and we'll catch you
guys next week.