If I had a nickel for every time that you were
on your phone when I tried to start the podcast,
I'd have like two nickels. You know, it's not
a lot, but it's weird this happened twice. What
is that from? It's from Phineas and Ferb. No,
it's not. Yes, it's Doofenshmirtz, isn't it?
Okay, it's definitely from something else as
well. It's not, dude. I'm telling you, that's
where it came from. Really? That's where I know
that quote from? Yeah, Doofenshmirtz is like,
if I had a nickel for every time this thing happened,
I'd have two nickels, which is not a lot, but
you know. At least it's weird that it happened
twice. I swear it's from something else as well.
Dude. I need to get back on my phone and Google
this. No, stop it. Stop it. It's the only place
I've heard it and I refuse to. As a child of
the 2000s, I claim Phineas and Ferb is probably.
Honestly, I think that show has had more of an
impact on me and my sense of humor than many
other things. Well, there's 104 days of summer
vacation. School comes along just to end it.
So, you know, I don't know the rest. The annual
problem for our generation is finding a good
way. To spend it. Like? Maybe, and I'm not going
to do that. I could, though. I know you could.
I'm curious as how many of you pursuing Jesus
pandas could, I actually know what we're talking
about here. If you guys have watched Phineas
and Ferb, I feel like that may be not the demographic
that listens to our podcast. I don't know, man.
I mean, so Phineas and Ferb, that's, it definitely,
I mean, it hits my age demographic. You watched
Phineas and Ferb? I know, yeah. So with kids.
When did it come out? Like late 2000s, early
2010s. I mean, I am fully aware of his existence
and I feel like I was fully aware before I had
kids. Yeah. Listen, it was great. To me, that
and like Suite Life of Zack and Cody was the
peak of Disney shows. See, now that is outside
of my realm of knowledge. I have watched zero
Suite Life of Zack and Cody. Yeah. You know,
fun fact about that show, the main love interest's
name is Maddie. And as a kid, I always had a
crush on her. And so then I married a lady named
Maddie, who was even better than the Maddie from
Suite Life of Zack and Cody. I wonder if therapist
Maddie has something to think about that. I'm
sure she does. We've talked about it before.
Hey, so I have a question for you. I'm going
to get us back. I'm going to get us on topic
biblically just a little bit. Okay. So first,
let me set this up. So do you believe... When
we die and go to heaven, we get a glorified body.
Eventually. Yes. Eventually, yes. Yes. So we're
going to get a glorified body. And do you think
that means that if someone was in an accident
and they were in a wheelchair, their glorified
body will be healed? I think that our glorified
bodies will exist in a different way than our
current bodies do. I do think that wholeness
is probably a theme that the Lord will instill
in creating our new bodies. I think if somebody
was in a wheelchair, they'll probably not be
in a wheelchair. I think if somebody was blind,
they'll probably not be blind. So here's my question.
Will there be bald people in heaven? You know,
Sean, I don't know. I don't know. There's hope
for all of us, I guess. But I think that our
glorified bodies will reflect us as true as possible.
So Dwayne the Rock Johnson with his amazing bald
head, maybe he will still be bald if he's a believer
of Jesus? Sure. But what if he wants hair? He
could also have hair. I don't know. I think that's
up to the Lord. Because I've seen... Yeah, we
had no say in how we were created the first time.
Why would that be different in the second time?
Okay, that's what I'm saying. Because I've seen
him in the trailer for the live -action Moana,
and the dude does not look right with hair. No,
he does not. Dwayne the Rock Johnson is intended
to be bald. I mean, it's one of the reasons I
don't think I want to see the movie, because
it's just weird. I'm done with the remakes, dude.
I can't do it. I was like, oh, yay, the remaking
Moana. I can't wait to be forced to watch this
with my nephews and nieces. Not watching it.
But the question remains. Because baldness is
a condition that people lose their hair. So are
they going to be healed of this condition? And
then what if they don't want to be? I think that
the Lord will design each person the way that
they... My vote is that it will be an embodiment
of their truest self, that their appearance will
perfectly reflect how God made them to be. And
so if that happens to include baldness, I think
that that may include baldness. I also think
that... I think the Lord was supposed to make
me 6 '2". Dude, your personality is not 6 '2".
No, it's not. Respectfully, said in love, neither
of us were meant to be 6 '2". I don't think that's
in either of our futures. I tell myself that
it was the amount of cigarettes I smoked at 13
years old that stunned my growth. You're not
the first person to tell me that. Oh, man. That's
wild. I'm desperately looking for a way to ground
this in our text for today. Hey, man, listen,
you started one way. I brought you to the scripture.
I brought you halfway there. And now we're just
living on a prayer. You didn't. You know, God
does care for bald people though. Leviticus 13
says that a man who has lost his hair and is
bald is still ceremonially clean. Hold on. That's
not the verse I was thinking of. You're thinking
of the passage. I'm thinking of the she bears.
You're thinking of the passage from second Kings
where a group of armed men, they describe them
as armed, some small boys. But if you look at
the Greek or if you look at the Hebrew, it's
like, like young men, like outside of the city.
Yes. Are teasing. Was it? is it Ezekiel? Um,
or one of the, Elisha, Elisha, Elisha. And, uh,
I mean like they're threatening the dude. And
so he, he, They're like, hey, Baldy, go away.
We're going to light you up. And he calls out
two she -bears. And the Lord answers. Yes, he
does. And the Lord brings the she -bears. Man,
if that is not a cruel way to go, I don't know
what is. Also, I don't think I've ever, outside
of this passage, referred to a female bear as
a she -bear. Yeah. I mean, the Bible refers to
it as a she -bear. Oh, I'm just, yes. Bear is
bear. You see one in the wild, you say, hey,
bear. Yep. I'm not trying to. identify the gender
of the bear. Did you just assume that bear's
gender? How modern of us. I know there's the
word bruin, B -R -U -I -N. I think it means a
male bear. Is that German? No, it's... You tried
to get us back in the text. I sure did. Now we're
talking about bears. But we were talking about
the Bible. We're talking about bald people. Hey,
so we should talk about John 17. I think now
is the perfect time for us to pivot to John 17.
If any of you are still with us, we're so glad
you're here. I'm so thankful for our pandas because
the introductions that they have to sit through.
The introductions that they get to sit through.
It's a privilege. They enjoy this content. Yes,
they do. And all the more on our Patreon, you
know? Yeah, if you didn't know about it, start
giving us some money. We'll figure it out. We
don't have a Patreon. But for $19 .99 a month,
we will. I don't like the way that splits out.
How much do I get of that? Like $9 .97 a month?
I don't know. I just feel like everything online
has to be ended 99 or anything in the store.
Well, that's it. That's marketing that you'll
pay. You will agree like psychologically. They
figured out however long ago that you'll pay
1799, but you won't pay 1800 for something. Yeah,
it's so much more right. You are the reason that
John 17 is we're going to look today. Sean and
I were looking at the passages to look at through.
This is one from August 28th. This is a very
interesting one. We're still in that kind of
pre, right before Jesus' crucifixion in the Holy
Week. The end discourse kind of, yeah. We've
been camped out in the book of John for a while
because I feel like John gives us the most detailed
account kind of of... Well, it makes sense too
because it is so different from the other ones
and there's things recorded that are not recorded
in the other ones. And so, yeah, we're here for
a while. Yep. And I think that this discourse
in particular fits really well with the overall
theme of John. John writes, I've written these
things so that you may know that Christ is the
Son of God. His whole point is Jesus is God's
Son. genuinely like all of John 17 is stuff that
only God's son could say. Only a person with
the authority of God himself in human form could
say any of the things that Jesus is asking in
the father to prayer. So Sean, do you want to,
you want to go ahead and read through John 17,
20 through 26, and then we'll jump in here. Sure.
I pray not only for these, but also for those
who believe in me through their word. May they
all be one as you father are in me and I am in
you. May they also be in us so that the world
may believe you sent me. I have given them glory
you have given me so that they may be one as
we are one. I am in them and you are in me so
that they may be made completely one that the
world may know you have sent me and have loved
them as you have loved me. Father, I want those
who have given me to be to be with me where I
am, so that they will see my glory, which you
have given me because you loved me before the
world's foundation. Righteous Father, the world
has not known you. However, I have known you,
and they have known that you sent me. I made
your name known to them and will continue to
make it known, so that the love you have loved
me with may be in them, and I may be in them.
So, dude, that verse lends itself to being a
bit of a tongue twister, just the way with Jesus
phrases it all. But what stands out to you in
reading this, Sean? So, y 'all know me. I'm all
about personal application, and I'm all about
when you read Scripture, putting yourself in
there. But honestly, I get overwhelmed with this.
I'm overwhelmed because I see myself, and I see
myself that Jesus is on this earth. In this moment.
And he's praying for me. Isn't that insane? Oh
my gosh. Like that. It's just, you know, to see
like, once again, I mean, realizing where we
are in the moment. Yes. Jesus is like 72 hours
from hanging on the cross. And his prayer at
this moment is for future believers. Yeah. Like
incredible. And like he starts like, I mean,
chapter 17, you know, people call it like the
high priestly prayer. Like he starts by praying
to the father and just kind of landing there.
And then he prays for his disciples. And then
he's like, I don't ask just only for my disciples,
but the people that will believe because of what
my disciples said. Yeah. You see a little picture
of Jesus, God's plan for the nations, for everyone.
Way back then, that blessing over Abraham, that
through Abraham's offspring, who is Jesus, all
the world will be blessed. Somehow we're caught
up in that promise and prosperity. Jesus has
a heart for us. He's thinking of the people he's
going to the cross for. One of the things I just
thought about, I don't know. I'm just going to
say it out loud because it just came to my mind.
We're in such an interconnected world today.
Fair. We're connected by the internet. We could
literally talk to someone face -to -face through
a screen on the other side of the planet. In
a different time zone. It's just insane the way
that we are so connected. As big as our world
is, it gets smaller to us because of how interconnected
we are. However, I just had this thought of the
people that... the disciples and the people that
Jesus are with, they don't realize how huge the
world truly is. No. But Jesus does. Yeah. And
so even as he's with all of them, they don't
realize what he's saying. But even Jesus has
the concept of like, I am here for the world,
and he understands what that means. What I'm
thinking of the billions of faces flashing across
his thoughts and his minds at the moment. Ben
and Sean sitting in a room in North Carolina.
The underground church huddled in somebody's
house in China. The Middle Eastern Christian
praying to Jesus outside of the mosque. The monk
in the 1700s in a monastery. All of these people
with so many different backgrounds and so many
different stories and so many different degrees
of faith and understanding of who God is. We
are all those who would believe because of the
word of the disciples. You know what's also insane
to me as I parse through this passage? The first
thing that Jesus prays for is unity. between
believers. Verse 21, I ask not for these only,
but also for those who will believe in me through
their, the disciples' word, that they may all
be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I
in you, that they may also be in us, so that
the world may believe that you have sent me.
Jesus is asking the Lord that he foster within
believers the unity that he has with the Father.
Like the oneness that they share being the thing
that defines believers. Here's the scary part
to me. The reason Jesus gives for this unity
is our witness. So that the world may believe
that you have sent me. Jesus is asking, Lord,
will you sow such unity in the believers to come
that the unbelieving world looks at them and
goes, huh? At the foot of the cross is the only
place that we see the kind of unity and diversity
gathered in one place in peace. Because of the
gospel, the rich and the poor are the same in
the eyes of God and equally valued to the kingdom.
Because of the gospel, people of any ethnicity
from any time in history are equally valuable
and equally loved in the eyes of God. people
with different degrees of ability, whether they're
physically able to walk on their own or whether
they have a wheelchair. That unity that we're
called to have is the primary witness to an unbelieving
world. This was a conviction for me, dude. So
your personal conviction that you're talking
about, so verse 21, are you talking about the
unity that you feel with other believers, with
other churches? Go into that a little more. Yeah,
so what I mean is, so the question that came
up for me was, how do I view other Christians?
I think like with the, and this is not a blame
game. This is just a factor that I've leaned
into. As I underwent, like particularly my college
degree for ministry. Yeah. We got super -duper
focused on theological stuff, as you should.
You're getting prepared to step into ministry.
You need to be able to understand the Bible.
Cedarville taught from a systematic theology
standpoint, which just means you pick an issue,
you talk about it from a perspective of Scripture,
rather than what they would call biblical theology,
which means you're using the canon of Scripture
consecutively. So that's not the point of our
conversation today. But one of the things that
they did... was they would be like, hey, this
is what we believe. This is what other branches
of Christianity believe. And this is why they're
wrong. Okay. And I understand from like a standardization
perspective, like a let's make sure all of our
graduates emerge from Cedarville looking theologically
pretty much the same. Right. But I inherited
that and I sort of like. it's super easy to become
antagonistic to other believers. Sometimes even
I think more so than the world around us. Like
theological differences that are distinct enough
to worship in separate places, but that are not
theologically distinct enough to call them like
a heretic or to say you don't believe the real
gospel. I feel like those can divide us worse
sometimes. And so a couple of people came to
mind that I have some theological differences
in, that almost a resentment kind of, like the
Spirit showed me that I have a little bit of
resentment towards those people. That was something
I had to repent from as I came to this text.
Like, Lord, I am actively working against the
unity that you have sent us. And Trinitarian
theology -wise, like... One of the unifying factors
of the father and son is the spirit. Yes. Like
from a God three persons perspective. And I've
got a couple of other things to say about the
Trinity. Jesus has a lot of Trinitarian things
in this passage. But if me and the people I disagree
with theologically are both in Christ, regardless
of our... like what I would call like our tertiary
views, like the third tier that are outside of
the gospel truths, like I should treat those
brothers and sisters with love. And there are
going to be areas that they excel in in their
faith that I struggle in. There are going to
be areas that I excel in faith that they struggle
in. I've got this sneaky suspicion that when
we get to heaven, we'll realize that every denomination
has a thing that they knocked out of the park
and a thing that Jesus will go, you guys got
this one wrong. And I think that's going to be
as equally true of Baptists as it is going to
be of Episcopals, as it is going to be of Methodists,
of Presbyterians, of non -denominational or whoever.
Yeah, I agree. And that's the thing. To be clear,
You know, because the way you described it is
you said, you know, as my brothers in Christ.
And so meaning there is a foundation there. Oh,
100%. There's a foundation of things that we
have to agree on. And even one of the things
you referenced, I think the Trinity. If we're
going to be true brothers and sisters in Jesus,
we cannot deny the Trinity. We cannot deny...
Jesus as the Son of God, not created, but being
with the Father. I mean, there's certain things,
and these are what we call those primary issues,
right? Yeah, 100%. And so, yeah, we absolutely
need to be agreeing on primary issues. Those
are where we stand firm. Those are where we absolutely
debate somebody and be like, hey, you think Jesus
was created? Okay, now we got to stop because
you don't believe the same God that I believe.
No, and... But think about it, though. I think
a lot of those truths that we do fight for, like
hills that we do die on, are ones that threaten
the gospel. Exactly. Exactly. But still, sometimes
we put too much focus on these other things that
are not as important, way not as important, and
we let them divide us when they shouldn't. Yeah.
And I think there's a place for... separation
theologically sometimes. No, I agree. Like, dude,
Paul and Barnabas had a mad beef about John Mark,
and so they split up. Deuces. Deuces. Later,
Scooter. God honored both of their ministries.
Yes. And it was for peace that they did it. I
think there's a place for that. No, there is.
And some people are like, man, there should just
be one worldwide church and all this. And like,
listen, we are going to interpret this book differently.
Yes. And so, absolutely, I think that... denominations
have their place. And even just from a practical
perspective of how personalities are different,
and that means how people relate to God are different.
And so, yeah, I think that there can be unity
among the church, even with these differences.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Because at the end...
Like when we're united to our father, spoiler
alert, this is where Jesus goes in the text.
Like when we're united again and we can see Christ
face to face, we will be all one body. Yeah.
The Bride of Christ does not have like different
seating sections. You know, like we're all in
the same boat. Section 202 with the Baptist go
over here. They're in the back row. That's why
I said 202. That sounds like the upper deck,
you know? Oh, man. Oh, that's right. That's good.
That's good. Oh, man. That was a joke for anybody
who thought I was being serious there. I just,
anyways. The only ones that are mad are the ones
that sit in the back row. Oh! Hey! Oh, man, I
hope you don't have a face in mind. So here's
one other thing that really stood out to me from
this text. I've read this before, and every time
I come over this, it's hard for me to kind of
fathom, and I think that's the point. Verse 25,
I've got it. O righteous Father, even though
the world does not know you, I know you, and
these know you. And these know that you have
sent me. Jesus is talking about like the believers
to come. 26, I made known to them your name and
I will continue to make it known that the love
with which you loved me may be in them and I
in them. Okay, pause button. Jesus is praying
to the Father that the love that they have shared
from before the foundation of the world, chapter
24, be the love that he has for us. We're invited
to the Trinitarian pre -time, pre -matter love
that the Father and the Son share. If you've
ever felt unloved, by your family if you've ever
felt alone and like without a friend in the whole
wide world like you have it recorded in the truths
of scripture that literally the god -sized love
a matter of fact his embodied like his main characteristic
first john says that god is love like sacrificial
love the sacrificial love that the father has
for the son that the son has for the father that
is shared and communicated through the power
of the holy spirit is directed at you yeah like
like you christian you person listening on the
like on your commute to work and and that is
an incredibly encouraging truth i mean is it
any wonder why when we look at people in our
world the amount of people that struggle with
loneliness the amount of people that feel like
no one cares about them i mean talk about this
is spiritual warfare Because when you see something
like this and see how we are loved by the Father,
we have community within the church, all of these
things that we are discussing, and yet people
struggle with this, that's spiritual warfare.
It is. I think one of Satan's greatest tactics
is to make us feel like we're alone. Yes. And
he does that in a myriad of ways. I believe firmly
that every generation has had its own unique...
weapons of loneliness, you know, like Satan uses
different tactics for us. I think a lot of those
are digital. Some of those are cultural, but
that spiritual battle is something that we can
fight with truths like this though. Like that,
that, that at some of his last moments, Jesus
thought it was important enough to address with
the father that you share in the love that he
and the father share. Like it's, it's extraordinary.
Yeah. And you know, and I don't, I don't want
to feel like I'm harping on, you know, I want
to go off what you said with the digital comment.
Because a good resource that we have these days
is that if you're not feeling well, or if you're
away, that you can be able to watch your church
service online. Where I think the issue has come
is where we look at this as replacement mentality,
and we think that that is a replacement, that
I can be a part of a church from a digital platform
solely. I've got issues with that. I do too.
And there are always going to be exceptions,
right? Like the person who's homebound, the person
who can't come. Like I said, there are sickness
and different reasons. If that is the only way
that you are able to be a part of the church,
it has its place. But I think too many people
use it as an excuse. Well, of course. But Sean,
the differentiator between I... consume this
at home and i attend and participate is still
love yeah like i like really and truly like like
you can love your church from afar sure yeah
but like there is also like a degree to love
where it atrophies without action it atrophies
without expression um it's the kind of thing
i could tell maddie i love her all that i want
but if i refuse to do the dishes you know like
like do i really do i really And I think that
love is something that we can choose to step
into or choose not to. As Christians, when we're
unified in the Spirit, one of the fruits of that
is love. Love that we have for one another. Love
in laying down our preferences. Love in choosing
to speak grace and kindness to the people around
us rather than just coming at them for our theological
differences. But I think that's how... And a
misunderstanding of love can lead to a misunderstanding
of what this looks like. Because an argument
can be made really from a 21st century perspective.
And I've heard this everywhere. We're like, well,
if you love me, you would let me do what I want.
If you love me, you would want me to be happy.
God does love us. God loves us as much as he
loved Jesus. Like Christ has specifically asked
for this and this is God's will. God and Christ
have the same will. Jesus even says that anything
coming from him comes from the father, you know,
but he, he doesn't, and he does love us as we
are, but his goal is to form us into Christ's
likeness. And so like that love that Jesus has
for us and that the father grows in us through
the spirit. When we express that in the church,
sometimes love looks like being honest to someone
else about their sin. Sometimes love looks like
loving confrontation. Jesus even instructs in
the Luke passage on forgiveness, I think it's
Luke 13, that when you forgive somebody, you
should also go to them and tell them that they've
wronged you. Jesus absolutely loves us, but he
also loves us enough to change us and shape us.
Absolutely. To restore us to what we were created
to be. And maybe even, to call back to that glorified
body baldness comment of yours, maybe even to
restore us to something greater than what we
were intended to be. 6 -2. Thank you, Sean. You're
welcome. I'm here for the deep theological discussions.
Including your desire for a greater height. We're
moving on. Oh, man. One other thing, and this
is like, related to our text today, but I just
thought it was super interesting. Have you ever
tried to teach about the Trinity? We talked about
triune theology earlier. Yes, I teach students.
This is a question that comes up a lot. And you
know how every single analogy that you give breaks
down? I hate them, yes. I came across one that
was tremendously compelling to me. I am cautiously
listening to what you have to say. I don't think
it's perfect. But it is darn near the closest
one I've seen to the concept we're trying to
portray. If you talk about an egg, I'm going
to flip this table. You have no idea how much
I would want to start talking about an egg right
now. Keep going with your thoughts. Yes. So the
analogy that I have heard that almost stands
up to like the theology of the Trinity in my
mind is the analogy of human speech. Have you
heard this one before? I have not. Now I'm curious.
So here's how the analogy works. The speaker
is the father. He's the originator of the thought
and the speech. Okay. Okay. The word is the son.
Now this is John 1, classic John 1. Like Jesus
is the word. The word became flesh and built
along us. He's the expression of the speaker's
mind. And Jesus mirrors that as a logos. Think
about it like Colossians 1. He is the image of
the invisible God. And then the breath that propels
the speech is the spirit, the ruach. Even the
word in scripture for spirit is also the word
for wind or breath. It's the unseen power required
to carry the sound. Each part is distinct, but
not separate. The voice, the word, and the breath
are three completely different components, but
you cannot have one without the others during
speech. But there is also simultaneous unity.
They occur at the exact same time to form a single
act of communication, just like the three co
-equal persons of the Trinity exist together
eternally. Like I said, it's not perfect, but
it is very close to the theological truth that
encapsulates the Trinity. It's the best one I've
heard. It's kind of abstract. Well, of course
it is. The Trinity itself is an abstract concept,
Sean. So it's like I'm having to digest this.
Yes. And I was really having to concentrate as
you were speaking because it's interesting. It's
very interesting. It's a very interesting comparison.
I like it more than I thought I would like it.
Yes, because anytime someone's like, I have the
perfect analogy for the Trinity, it's like, no,
that's modalism. Yes. No, that's this. Oh, no,
that's that. Because it falls apart. And unfortunately,
because this is such a core truth to what we
believe, we kind of have to get this right. You
know, I went and grabbed a book that I didn't
buy it for the podcast, but I read this in college
that was really, really compelling to me. And
I just wanted to share this little quote with
you as we kind of land the plane on this episode.
So there was a young Scottish man in the 1100s
named St. Richard of the Abbey of St. Victor.
And he argued this regarding the Trinity, like
why it's important that God be three persons
that are distinct but co -equal at the same time.
Richard argued that if God were just one person,
he could not be intrinsically loving, since for
all of eternity before creation, he would have
had nobody to love. If there were two persons
of the Trinity, he went on, God might be loving
but in an excluding, ungenerous way. After all,
when two persons love each other, they can be
so infatuated with each other that they simply
ignore everyone else. And a God like that would
be very far from good news. But when the love
between two persons is happy, healthy, and secure,
they rejoice to share it. Just so it is with
God, says Richard of St. Victor. Being perfectly
loving from all eternity, the Father and Son
have delighted to share their love and joy with
and through the Spirit. It is not then that God
becomes sharing. Being triune, God is a sharing
God, a God who loves to include. Indeed, that
is why God will go on to create. For his love
is not for keeping, but for spreading. In God's
very nature is the notion that we would be invited
into the love that the Trinity shares. Wow. I
like that, man. Yeah. It was a very interesting
quote from a very, very old monk. It's good stuff.
Yeah. Well, dude, this has been fun. I feel like
we blew through this episode. I like... Blew.
Breath. That's what I'm saying. I'm trying to
get something. I'm trying. I'm trying. You're
succeeding, Sean. Yay! I affirm. Oh my goodness.
Too much coffee. Once again, too much coffee.
Thank you guys for listening. I'm going to land
this plane before Sean says anything else. What
do we want? When do we want them? Now! We'll
see you guys next week. Bye! pursuing Jesus is
a ministry of Memorial Baptist Church in Norwood,
North Carolina. To learn more about our church,
please visit memorial4norwood .com.