I still remember Mandisa from, like, I don't
want to gain the whole world and lose my soul.
Dude, my whole personality as, like, a fourth
grader was Toby Mac's Diversity album recorded
live in Texas. We had it on DVD, and I had that
thing on repeat all the time. That was good,
Toby Mac. That was really good, Toby Mac. When
we go back to, like, Diversity, I remember the
name of that album. And then I think it's Whoopsie
Daisy. I think was that the album before? Whoopsie
Daisy was the album after, but that's not the
title of the album. I'm trying to remember what
it is. But it's that because that's the one with
the I don't want to gain the whole world. But
like all of like when Toby Mac went single and
like all those, especially like the first two
because they were like really hard. Yeah, that
was good. Toby Mac. He's done that thing where
he like he'll take an artist under his wing.
and kind of help boost them up. He did that with
Holland. He did that with NF. Like, NF's early
stuff, like, Toby Mac, like, kind of boosted
him. Toby Mac let him tour with him and stuff.
And then NF, like, was like, I'm not a Christian
artist. I'm an artist that's a Christian. And
Toby was like, dude, you can't do that. Yeah.
Which you can. Like, I actually think there's
a – like, I can make a valid case for somebody
who is musically gifted who is a Christian who
does not explicitly make Christian music. I agree.
But, yeah. No, I – that early Toby Mac was –
oh, it was so cool, man. I felt so edgy listening
to his cover of Jesus freak that he does. This
is an encore like daddy's got guitars. His concerts
were good back then too. He has some good concerts.
He would do that thing where like the band would
be going crazy and he'd disappear for a little
bit and he'd just pop up in the, in the crowd.
Yeah. Yeah. I think if I did that at Memorial,
I mean, everybody would see me walk out there,
but you know, we need some stage effects to make
that work. There are so many prerequisites to
what we're talking about that I would need to
install in our sanctuary. Lots of money, but
we have a basement for it, though. That crawl
space is huge. How dare you give me any kind
of... I mean, and think about it. Right below
where the stage is, it's deep. It's deep. That's
true. You could drop. Dude, I could do the Michael
Jackson thing where I shoot out, you know? Have
you seen that? Listen, the cost of this is justified.
Dean and David, if y 'all are listening to this,
can y 'all build this? Can y 'all build this
for me? A spring -loaded catapult that gets me
just high enough off the ground. Yes, it is.
It gets me just high enough off the top of the
stage where it lands. This is perfect. I see
no problems with this. Oh, gosh. In my mind,
it's great. In reality, this is wretched. We're
not going to do this. This is terrible. Dude,
I need stage lights before we get pyrotechnics
and we get hydraulics out of the stage. Sean,
we need a new sound system before we get new
stage lights. Oh man, it's on our last leg. Talking
about like poorly appropriated use of church
money. I was on Facebook Marketplace the other
day, which is always dangerous for me. Was Craigslist
ever a big thing in your generation? Oh, yeah.
I used Craigslist. The used guitar market still
runs off of it. Please stop touching your microphone.
Is it still a thing? Oh, yeah. Craigslist is
still running. Now, there's some creepy people
on Craigslist. Maybe I think that's why Facebook
Marketplace became overshadowed Craigslist. It's
because, oh, you get to look at a profile. You
get to see some stuff about this person and not
just random words on a screen. Meet me at the
Walmart parking lot at 2 a .m. Bring all of your
money just in case. So I was on Facebook Marketplace
the other day, right? And I saw somebody was
selling for the small price of $11 ,000. A 50
-foot rock climbing wall for kids' parties and
stuff. Mobile? Mobile. It's on a trailer, dude.
And I thought to myself, Memorial needs this.
VBS needs this. I cannot imagine the amount of
legal protection we would need from an insurance
perspective and the number of waivers. Tommy
Tarleton would hate any mention of trying for
us to buy a rock wall. Yes, he would. But you
know what? I think it's for the Lord. You know
how much ministry can be done as you're climbing
a rock wall? A lot. Listen, I've been on a rock
wall. I think more people call on Jesus on a
rock wall than... than they do with both feet
firmly planted on the ground. If you happen to
come across a mobile rock wall on Facebook Marketplace,
think about donating it to the church. Just drop
it off. Drop it off. Listen, we don't need to...
So here's the problem with opening up this conversation.
Okay. Because people already feel like the church
is the best place to go donate stuff to without
telling us. Yeah. And people will just show up
with... I'm trying to think of a nice word. Flotsam
and jetsam. I'm just going to say junk. I'm going
to say junk. That's the nice word. Like, I don't
need this. I don't need this. The church would
love to have this because I guess there's some
people that just feel bad throwing stuff away.
And so they're just like, we'll donate it to
the church. Well, I mean, that's an argument
of lesser to greater because I think churches
particularly are guilty of never throwing. Listen,
if there is one thing that I have brought to
memorial, it is the spiritual gift of the dumpster.
The spiritual gift of chuck it. Throw it away.
Get it out of here. You see, Sean, it's not about
the gift given to the church. It's about the
heart that it's given in. Wouldn't you agree?
I would agree, except for the people that continue
with their heart to give us wheelchairs. You
know how many wheelchairs we have at this church
right now? I don't, actually. There's about eight.
Eight wheelchairs stuffed in closets. Tell me
that hasn't turned into a youth group game. Insurance.
No. But what we love is that, yes, it is not
the size of the gift that matters. It's the heart.
What are you getting at? I'm getting that today's
passage. Oh, there it is. Awesome. Awesome. What's
today's passage, Sean? Oh, man. So this week,
man, this week's lessons has been varied for
sure with the stuff that we hit, the stuff that
we were going to be reading this week. But we
wanted to settle on a smaller passage that is
found both in Mark and in Luke. And affectionately,
it is known as the widow's gift or the widow's
might is how people will refer to this story.
And it's a short one. And I think we should read
one of them. Which one do you think we should
read? should read uh mark accounts longer i i've
got stuff from both of them so yeah like well
i think we'll end up referencing all right well
let's read mark because mark's got a little bit
you know like i said it's got a couple more words
a little more details in it so let's read mark
just so everyone's on the same page so if you're
driving down the road you don't have time to
break out your bible right now as as you're uh
as you're listening to this um please don't actually
that's like my pastoral counsel to you right
now is don't read your bible Oh, man. So as you're
driving down the road right now, because we know
that there are probably some that listen to the
podcast as they get on the road, listen to this
so that way you can be in the context of what
we're talking about and join in with those who
do have their Bible in front of them not driving
down the road. I think they get it, Sean. We're
sitting at a table. Let me read it. I've been
carried to the table. Did I introduce you to
that song? Yes. That's what I thought. I thought
that was wild. You never heard that song. There
are many songs I haven't heard. Yeah, but that's
a really good one. It is a really good one. Yeah.
But you knew of Leland. Oh, yeah. He's the man
who sings like a woman. Yeah. He's got long hair.
So you know all the long hair Christians. Y 'all
have like a little Facebook group or something,
right? Yeah, there's all four of us. Anyways,
I moved my mouse. There we go. All right. Starting
in verse 41. Sitting across from the temple treasury,
he watched how the crowd dropped money into the
treasury. Many rich people were putting in large
sums. Then a poor widow came and dropped in two
tiny coins worth very little. Summoning his disciples,
he said to them, Truly I tell you, this poor
widow has put more into the treasury than all
the others, for they all gave out of their surplus,
but she, out of her poverty, has put in everything
she had. All she had to live on. Yeah. Now, the
first thing that stands out to me about this
text, Jesus is... I'm rocking ESV. And he sat
down opposite the treasury and watched people
putting money in the offering box. This was a
public spectacle. People could see what people
were giving. Man, yeah. And this is something
that... That's wild to me, first off. I'm so
glad that this is no longer our culture. Okay,
I'll just be honest. There is a time where this
has been done in church. I forgot what they call
it. And it's been like a special offering thing.
Who can give the most -a -thon? I mean, that's
what I call it in my brain, but it's a time where
there would be a box in front of the church,
and it would be a special offering, and people
literally, every row would get up, come, put
their gift in the church, and go sit back down.
And I've always been freaked out about that.
It's been done at... I've seen it done many times
and it's always just been a weird spirit to me
because it's kind of like this whole thing, right?
It's like, like, yeah, like it's a, it's truly
like this is a spectacle where people, and then
how do they know that some people were putting
in large sums of money because they made sure
people knew they were putting in. large sums
of money and in all fairness like like there
there's a practicality to this too if you're
rich and you're getting you so old testament
law commanded you to give 10 of your stuff right
and so if if you if you got if you and they couldn't
drop in checks back in the day right so if you
got racks on racks like you have a massive freaking
it was going to be obvious and so the clunk in
the bottom of the offeratory chest And I got
to think there have been ways around that. But
it's hard not to read performative giving into
this text. Yeah, it's really hard not to. Yeah.
But yeah, you're right. Jesus is sitting there
just watching. He's people watching. Yeah. It's
so wonderful. I love to do that. Favorite place
to do that is the mall and the airport. Oh, that
is a great place, because you can get a range
of emotions in that place. Oh, you get a range
of emotions at either place. Yeah, the mall's
a fun one, too. You learn things you didn't want
to know at the mall, but that's half the battle.
But here we go, but Jesus is people watching
in the temple, right? And he's watching these
people put in money, and the focus of this story
is not the rich people, but it's this poor widow.
Yeah. Right? And she come, and from Jesus' commentary,
and he knows, because he's God, that she gave
everything. Yeah. And that is, this is where
we see really the heart of who our God is. Because
here, so you're exactly right. Something that
just occurred to me now is that, so everybody
saw the spectacle of the rich giving, right?
Jesus had to call his disciples' attention to
the giving of this widow. Whoa. And so he contrasts
the heart of giving from abundance and giving
out of poverty, but Jesus sees the small actions
of faithfulness with equal focus and with equal
intentionality as what might be considered the
quote -unquote large acts of faithfulness or
generosity. What I love about this and the reason
he drew the attention of the disciples is because
her giving was truly sacrificial. What does that
look like? Or what do you mean when you say that?
So it says that she gave out of her poverty.
Yeah. So this means that every bit of money she
has, we are getting the... We are getting the
context here that she doesn't have a lot. Yeah.
And so she needs to live to be able to buy food
or whatever. She needs the resources that she
has. Verse 44 says she put in all she had to
live on. Yes. Everything. And she was willing
to sacrifice what she had in faith to God. Yeah.
Where... when we give and it doesn't hurt us,
if we just give out of our abundance, which is
what it says that the rich people were doing.
So it also makes me wonder if they were giving
out of their abundance, were they even, I wonder
if they were even given what was required of
them of the time. I bet they were. Yeah. It's
hard to know that from the text, but I do see
what you're getting at. But it wasn't hurting
them. But it wasn't hurting. Even if it was,
it was not something that was sacrificial. Yeah.
Like, their abundance was not sacrificial to
them, and it would have not been missed. Right.
And that is completely true. And you see the
premise in Scripture of, like, giving shouldn't
be a flippant thing, even in the Old Testament.
Because remember, these people didn't have New
Testament, spirituality, new covenant, all that
stuff. Like David gives the example of, I will
not give sacrifices that cost me nothing. When
he goes to buy the threshing floor to build the
temple and humble was like, dog, I love Jesus.
You're also the king. I don't have a choice.
I'm going to give it to you. And David's like,
I won't do this in a way that won't cost me.
But I will say here, I don't feel like Jesus
condemns the rich for the way that they give
in so much as he elevates the giving of the widow.
Like I said at the beginning, he is focusing
on the widow. He is focusing on her actions.
Yeah. And once this is, he wants his disciples,
because he says he's not, he doesn't look at
his disciples and say, oh gosh, look what they're
doing. Yeah. No, no. He focuses on this one and
just says, hey, this is what I want you to notice.
I want you to notice how this woman has come,
this widow has come, and she has given everything.
Yeah. And that is out of... Her heart must have
obviously been in the right place as well. 100%.
This wasn't her giving out of fear, like, oh,
the Lord's going to smite me if I don't do this,
one of those things. No, her heart was saying
that I love God so much, and I trust and I have
faith in my God that I'm just going to give him
this. So that trust and faith thing is something
that stood out to me too. My Bible's got one
of those little notey notes. Notey notes. Yep,
that's a theological term. Right where it says
she gave two small copper coins, it gave me an
interpretation of how much that was worth. It's
a Roman copper coin worth about 1 64th of a day's
wages. All she had was a 64th of a day's wages.
And so the principle of her giving, that being
all that she have, one, and her giving all of
that to the Lord flies directly in the face of
the tendencies I see in myself. Here's what I
mean. When things get thin financially or in
any other area of my life, I tend to, and I think
this is a pretty natural human response, I tend
to go into conservation mode. Let me give you
an example. December is crunch time for worship
ministry. We have concerts, we have... concerts
we've got plays we got rehearsals we got services
and then there's also like all the other various
sundry holiday things there are more nights of
the week that you are here in the month of december
than an average month yes uh to maybe to understate
it a little yes um and so not so so drop the
the money connotation yeah um but the scarcity
i face in december is not money because I'm grateful
for the church providing for me. It's time. And
when I experience scarcity of time, it doesn't
make me more generous. It makes me less generous.
It's a natural human instinct. I think to myself,
no. that extra extra extra thing that that somebody
asks us to do i'm not doing that i'm gonna go
home and i'm gonna play my guitar i'm gonna read
a book i'm gonna watch a christmas movie um because
my scarcity um must like like i have to protect
what i have now this is the exact opposite in
her scarcity um she responds with generosity
in worship And I think that that's an expression
of trust, like what you said, where she gives
out of her poverty because she trusts that the
Lord will provide for her. I think that's a mindset
that we all have an opportunity to embrace in
different areas of our lives. Because, I mean,
you and me sitting across this table from each
other have different areas of lack. Everybody
listening to this podcast have different areas
of lack. For some, it might be financial. For
some, it might be time. For some, it might be
physical stamina and energy. For some, it might
be ability to deal with people. Like your bucket
only goes so full. But how do we, one of the
biggest takeaways I took from this text for myself
was how do I respond when I have lack? Do I respond
by conserving? Or do I respond? with generosity,
trusting that the Lord will take care of me.
Yeah. And this is one of the things that we've
dealt with on this podcast before, and that is
worship and sacrifice go hand in hand. Yes. I
mean, worship, true worship, and I'm talking
about the definition of the word beyond music.
Far beyond music. Worshiping God requires sacrifice.
Going back to the story of David, he fully recognized
that there is a sacrifice needed because it's
showing dependence on the one you're trying to
worship. I mean, how can you worship God if you're
not giving up something of yourself? Because
it's an expression of love, right? And generally,
if you love somebody, you don't want to give
them the dregs. When I take Maddie out for our
anniversary, I don't take Maddie to Wendy's.
What? Unless Maddie wants to go, in which case
we do. I've heard Maddie talk about the potatoes
and chili at Wendy's. Which are things she actually
can't eat there with her dietary restrictions.
It's tougher than you might think. But it's not
an obligation. It's an affection. It's not...
Well, Jesus gave everything for you, so you better
give everything for him. There's desire. It's
desire there. And I think that our desire...
to worship sacrificially can grow based off of
how often we look at the truth of what Jesus
has done for us and let that influence our love
for him. I think that's part of the sanctification
process. A hundred percent. But like guilting
you into giving. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Whether that's time or money or service. No,
no, no, no, no, no, no. Here's an interesting
little tidbit. I went down a little bit of a
rabbit trail about giving when I looked at this
text. Are New Testament believers, this is a
question for you, Sean, do you think New Testament
believers are required by the Bible to give 10
% of their income? No. Really? No. I think that
is a belief that is... prominent in a lot of
circles in Christianity. Yeah, no, I think that
the New Testament, I think that 10 % is a good
baseline for new believers. And not anything
that is a commandment from Scripture, but as
a practice of getting to that, of understanding
what giving is, I think giving 10 % is a good
baseline. But when I look at New Testament giving,
once again, I just see sacrificial. And I think
sometimes if we stay so focused on the amount
of that number of 10%, we might be missing what
God is trying to do in our lives when he's trying
to say, hey, no, I think you should give up more.
But here's the hard thing, because this is so
hard to talk about as pastors, because then you've
got these people with our sinful hearts. They're
like, uh -huh, yeah, yeah, the pastor just wants
more money. It's like, no, no, no, no. And so
it's one of those fine lines of being able to
try to help guide people. And understand like,
hey, this is not, I'm not doing this out of personal
gain. Like truly not trying to do this. I'm trying
to get you to understand, like, listen to the
Lord here. And there is a difference. And like,
and if you're giving an offering to the Lord,
that's going to be different for different people.
I don't think it's that hard. I recognize what
you're saying in terms of the folks who would
be like, these people just want more money, but
let's let the words of Scripture determine what
we believe. 2 Corinthians 2 .9. I landed here
in my journey as I'm looking at tithing and all
that stuff. Paul says the point is this. Whoever
sows sparingly will also reap sparingly. Whoever
sows bountifully will also reap. And so prosperity
teachers, guys who are just trying to get your
money, they stop at verse six because they're
like, you so sparingly, God is not going to bless
you. They directly equate how much you give to
them to line their pockets and their Lamborghini
for the Lord with how much God will bless you.
But verse seven says, each one must give. As
he has decided in his heart. There you go. Not
reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves
a cheerful giver. We see here in scripture, and
I will talk about this until I am dead. God cares
more about your heart when you do the thing than
whether you do the thing or not. Correct. And
so this is why every single year. when we do
our special offerings, like the two big ones
that we have here at Memorial is our Easter offering
and our Christmas offering. One supports international
missionaries, the other supports national missionaries,
right? And... Every single time, and I will continue
to do it every single time, we do these special
offering gifts that is above your tithe and offering.
Let me repeat that again. This does not replace
your tithes. This is above an offering. This
is an offering of sacrifice to these special
things. I always say every single time, pray
about this. Before you, like, hey, we started
it on December 1st. Don't give on December 1st.
Pray about how much you want to give. In fact,
a lot of times I'll even say, if you're a married
couple, pray separately. Don't talk to each other
about it. Pray separately and then come together
and see what that amount is that the Lord has
talked to you about separately. Because when
you do that, it's coming from your heart. And
it's no longer going to be a... We definitely
have a lot of people that are financially -minded
people, and they're going to be thinking, okay,
well, this is December. I got this going on.
I got this going on. I got this. It's like, no,
no, no. This is not a budgetary expense. This
is a sacrificial gift that you're giving to the
Lord. Let Him guide your giving and not your
paycheck balance. Yeah. Because if the... Right
there, as you just read, if the Lord's going
to guide you toward it and be free to listen
to the Lord. Now, sometimes I've done this, me
and Tiffany have done this, and the Lord has
given us a number we were not comfortable with.
That's happened a lot. Yeah. But guess what?
Especially when we do it separately. we know
it's from the Lord. Yeah. If we do it together,
we can convince ourselves that, oh, yeah, no.
No, but if we both pray separately and all of
a sudden we come back with a number together
and we were both scared to tell each other the
number and then we come out with the same number,
we know God has told us to give that number.
And like, okay, we don't know how our bank account
can afford this, but we know the Lord has told
us to do this. And it does have to come from.
God, because I firmly believe like this verse
gives precedent for God can tell you a small
number. God can tell you don't give. Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely. I think that the premise here of
like you have to give a certain amount or even
like you have to give at all. It's really based
off of what the Lord is asking you to do. That
means you can't do it by yourself. That means
that before you give, you have to be walking
with Jesus to know what he wants you to do. I
also think that that lets him determine the direction
that you give. God can say, give in this area.
God can say, give in this area. But at the end
of the day, he's the one who has given us the
resources. And because he loves us and because
we struggle to know what to do and because he
has a perfect plan, he'll show you how, when,
and where to give, not under compulsion, not
reluctantly. And he will cultivate that joy in
your heart if you ask him. And as a reminder
that you talked about earlier, now that we have
fully really looked at, you know. sacrificial
giving and giving us to the Lord calls, this
is not all about money. No. In fact, for many
people, time is more valuable than money because
that is a limited resource that we all have the
same amount of every single day. And then we
all choose what we do with the time that we're
given. My brother in Christ, we do not all have
the same amount of time every day. We all have
24 hours. Yeah, but the obligations that bind
us are different. You are correct. But we all
get to choose what we do within that 24 -hour
period. So, yes, we definitely have obligations.
We have different things that we can do. And
some will squander that time. Others will manage
it better, right? But every single human being
has 24 hours in a day. And so for some people,
that is a more valuable resource. than money
is and so giving up of time is something that
some people don't do no and so maybe in your
heart maybe in the heart of someone listening
you know you are you you can money is not something
you can give freely with money and maybe even
sacrificially but you're not willing to give
your time because i know of a lot of i know I've
known people in church that give incredibly to
the church and sacrificially. They are willing
to give to missions. They're willing to give
to the church sacrificially, but they won't serve.
You know, isn't it so interesting that the same
virtue or vice can have such a different... impact
in different areas of our life, that one that
is so generous with finances can be so stingy
with time. One of the people who's mentored me,
they lean definitely more charismatic than some
others. And so this person practices deliverance
ministry. They'll pray over people regarding
specific spirits that are afflicting them. And
that's a different conversation for a different
podcast. Really? We don't have time to go into
that one right now? We are already over the 30
-minute mark. And And that is something I'm happy
to talk about. But the point of it is this. This
couple was really struggling. They were really
fighting with some spiritual warfare. They approached
this person who does deliverance. And after the
three of them prayed, they all came to the conclusion,
like, there is a spirit of greed on this man.
And the man was like, I don't think you understand.
Like, we are giving sacrificially. Like, I am
generous, and the wife affirmed that. And so
they were praying, they were praying, they were
praying, and the Lord told this person doing
deliverance, he's not generous for this time.
And the wife was like, oh, shoot, you're right.
He doesn't give his time to anybody. They prayed
over that. They found that spirit, all the things.
But it's interesting that the same virtue or
vice can come out so differently in different
ways in our lives. Yeah, yeah. And it's different
for everybody else. 100%. It is different. So
for me personally, I feel like I am very generous
with my time. I love to serve. I love to do that.
Money is the one that I struggle with. And it's
one that I think I've even talked about that
on the podcast before. But I'm just glad I have
a godly wife that is more generous with our money.
Praise the Lord that he sets us up with people
that our strengths match. Yeah. So I guess just
to land the plane for us, you pursuers, us and
you, we all pursuers today, take time this week,
maybe even like after you finish this podcast
or after you press pause or whatever, hold a
little bit of space and ask the Holy Spirit,
what areas of my life are you asking me to be
generous with? What areas am I giving richly?
And what areas do I refuse to give richly out
of fear or out of lack of security? I'm asking
that question to myself. Sean, it sounds like
you're asking that question of yourself, but
I think that's a really good place to land the
plane. And when you're on that journey. And if
you're asking those questions, you're moving
in the right direction. Amen. Because that's
the thing. Sometimes people will struggle of
like, man, am I doing enough or whatever? And
we can get into that whole conversation, which
we get into all the time. All the time. But asking
the questions and being genuine about asking
the question of like, what can, am I, where do
I need to sacrifice? You're on the right direction.
Yes. It's crazy. Like the heart behind the behavior.
And the struggle that you're having matters more
than the behavior and struggle itself. The heart
is what matters. Absolutely. That's what we're
seeing here in Mark with this amazing parable.
This is what we've been seeing in Galatians as
we've been studying it on Sunday morning. The
heart is what matters. Awesome. Well, Pursuers,
it's been fun. Do some introspection. We'll catch
you guys next week. Well, my name is Sean Griffin.
Oh, my name is Ben Smith. That's right. And I
hope you guys have a wonderful, wonderful week.
We'll see you soon. Pursuing Jesus is a ministry
of Memorial Baptist Church in Norwood, North
Carolina. To learn more about our church, please
visit memorial4norwood .com. How did we get off
on that? That was so stupid. What do you mean?