Welcome to the Pursuing Jesus podcast. Today
we're going to be talking about listening to
the voice of God and lists versus liberty. We
hope you'll pay attention and enjoy this episode.
So tune in. Well, good morning or good evening
as it were. Hello at 3 a .m. Hello at 3 a .m.
We don't even post it at 3 a .m. It goes live
at 6. 6 a .m.? 6 a .m. Is that when it goes live
every Friday? Yeah, and I usually get a text
around 7 from a certain... From someone that's
waiting for it to go live. They want to be the
first one. That's because he's disappointed it's
not on at 3 a .m. Yes, and I changed it once,
but you know what? They didn't listen to it then,
and I was like, you know what? 6 a .m. I don't
have to be present for that. You could schedule
these things. It's 2026, guys. You know what
one of my favorite things to do is these days?
Schedule texts. Oh, it's glorious. Because so
many times... One of the times I guess my brain
is operating best is when I'm at the gym on the
treadmill and it's like six 45, 7am in the morning.
And I'm like, I don't want to text this person
right now, but I will schedule it right then.
And then that way they get it later in the day.
So here's the real question for you guys. If
you schedule a text, do you have to make it like
a weird time? So that like, it's like, Oh, it's
not at six. It's like 602. Cause I don't want
them to know I scheduled it. So I never do it
right at 12 o 'clock. Exactly. John never schedules
texts is what I'm seeing over there. I've never
scheduled a text. It is revolutionary. For an
ADD brain, it's life -changing. Glorious. Because
for me, it happens right before I go to bed.
And I'm like, okay, it's like 10 .30. I can't
text you right now. You're asleep. I was waiting
for you to be like, it was like 8 .30 and I guess
I had to go to bed. No. You know what threw me
for a massive loop? a couple of days ago, I,
uh, I was, we're going through our firebox for
something. And, uh, I got my passport out and
I glanced at it. It expires October, 2026. No
worries. And I was like, wait, yeah, that's,
you can't leave. That's, that's this October.
You can't leave the country with that. You got
to get that thing fixed. I do. But like my brain
just was like, yeah, 2026, I got plenty of time.
So I, I actually have not told either one of
you this. Okay. Uh, you're not an American citizen.
that is something i would not admit on a podcast
that goes on the internet if that was true there
would be so many legal ramifications to that
oh immigration i am an american citizen oh yeah
please don't take me away passport expire oh
my gosh so my passport is expired that's the
point of this story Um, I got an email inviting
me to go on a free trip to Israel. And it was
lit. This was not like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
This sounds like a, no, it was from, uh, it was
from the president of SLU, uh, student leadership
university, uh, that we do a lot of stuff with,
with our students. And they were partnering.
They were partnering with a lot of stuff that
the government was doing with Israel and they
were trying to get pastors to go to Israel. That's
crazy. And I was invited to go and I filled out
the application. I was accepted. And then I looked
and my passport was expired and there's not enough
time to get in. And I was like, well, that just
stinks. That stinks. So I missed out on a free
trip to Israel because I didn't keep my passport
up to date. And so you'd think I would have updated
it by now. Nope, it's still expired. I got to
fix that thing. If you get nothing else from
this podcast today, ladies and gentlemen, watchers
and listeners, keep your passport updated. I've
never been to Israel. And John, I know you have.
What was your experience going to the Holy Land?
And when did you go? Just kind of depends on
the mindset you go in with. If you're somebody
that reads and loves to see visuals, it's really
neat. I mean, I think the one that was really...
surprising to me was the Pool of Bethsaida, the
one that's in John 5. So, I mean, you saw a lot
of really cool places, but I went when I was
a junior in college, so it's been a long time.
I had one plan with my last church. We were supposed
to go in 2020, and COVID hit, and then it got
postponed to 2021. Israel shut down again in
21. And then in 22, they called us up and they
said, because we had already paid for it, they
said, well, we can chance it again to go to Israel
or you can go to Greece and Turkey and follow
in the footsteps of Paul. So that's what we did.
All right. But I will say that was disappointing.
The Greece one. The Greece and Turkey one was.
It was not as. I don't know. It wasn't near as
good as Israel. Israel was just, there was just
something about it. You know, you're, you're,
you're seeing the gospels come to life, but the,
the Greece and Turkey trip, you were on a bus
for like four hours going to each site. And so
it was like you were doing so, whereas in Israel,
you spend four days in Jerusalem. So, and then
you're like an hour, maybe an hour to Bethlehem
or an hour to Hoffa, you know, all these different
places. So it was just like it, there was nowhere
near as much traveling. So it's not as spread
out. It's more condensed kind of. a smaller area.
But it also makes you think when Paul was walking
to these places, if it took you four hours to
drive there, how long it took Paul to go from
Corinth to Athens and then to Thessalonica and
all that. You got to wonder, Paul's traveling
with Luke or with Barnabas at times or dragging
Timothy around or John Mark. What was that like
walking with somebody who... who saw the risen
Christ. I think at least internally, I have that
tendency to like, I don't know, overly sanctify
Paul walking around, talking in a calm voice,
you know, like, oh, Timothy, the things I've
seen. I bet it wasn't. I'm sure Paul was like,
dude, will this inn ever get our food out? You
know, that is an interesting thing. And these
are thoughts that I've had too when it comes
to scripture. I call them characters, but they're
historical figures, but they're characters. Oh,
they said characters in Scripture. But that's
the point. We get a little bit of emotions through
different passages. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But one
of the things that the written word lacks is
personality and those different things, and it
would be so cool just to know some of the personality
traits of some of these people, to really know
this is who this person was from disability.
personality standpoint, not just the written
word. Yeah. I've always wondered those kind of
things. Those will be interesting. So anyways,
guys, y 'all want to get into some passages today?
Yeah, I think let's do it. Awesome. Awesome.
So I'm going to get us started. I'm going to
be in John chapter 10. I'm going to be looking
at verses one through five. And this, if I can
pull out my handy dandy notebook. Blue's Clues
reference there. May 27th. So if you have done
that, when you like to turn there, if you like
to follow along. You know, that's one of the
things I've actually kind of wondered from our
listeners who I hope you're doing the devotional
books with us. I really do. That's kind of the
point of this that we're doing is to help you
guys out. But I'm really curious, when you listen
to the podcast, do you have your notes in front
of you? Are you kind of looking at what you wrote
down on those days compared to what we're saying?
You know, I've never heard any of that feedback.
And so, hey, let me know. know. Let me know if
that's something you do, if you ever compare
what you wrote or anything. I would love to hear
that kind of feedback, and so let us know. But
anyways, May 27th. It goes all the way down to
verse 10, but I just want to read the first five
verses, right? I mean, the big verse is verse
10, and so that's the one that a lot of people...
will really focus on, but there's something that
Jesus says, and it's all Jesus speaking in the
first five verses, that caught me a number of
years ago, and it's something that I love to
use to talk with my students about, and something
the Lord really worked in my life as well to
help me understand my relationship with Him.
And so let me read it. It's only five verses,
and then let me tell you kind of what I want
to say. So here it goes. Truly I tell you, anyone
who doesn't enter the sheep pen by the gate but
climbs in some other way is a thief and a robber.
The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd
of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens it for him,
and the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own
sheep by name and leads them out. When he has
brought all his own outside, he goes ahead of
them. The sheep will follow him because they
know his voice. Hint, hint, I'm going slower
as I read that. They will never follow a stranger.
Instead, they will run away from him because
they don't know the voice of the strangers. So
it's that whole idea of understanding the voice
of Jesus. And this has been my encouragement
to so many people that are young in their faith,
whether that's age -wise or spiritually. And
one of the questions I get is, how do I know
if I'm listening to the voice of God? And that
is such an important question because there's
so many times where we might be praying about
something and it can be more obvious. We're praying
about something. But there's other times that
we're going to be praying about something. And
because of conflicting emotions that we have,
here's a big one that might be silly to some
of our listeners, but it is honestly important
to some of our students. And that's dating, right?
Yeah, for sure. There's some guys, they're going
to look at a girl. They're going to say, that
girl looks really good. I want to date this girl.
Let me pray about it. And sometimes they're serious,
right? And when they're serious, It can still
be difficult to discern, am I listening to my
own fleshly desires that really want to date
this girl? Or is this something that it would
be a godly relationship? Absolutely. Like that's
hard to discern when there are emotions attached
to it or there are other desires attached to
whatever's going on. And so this is what I tell
my students. The more you know the voice of God,
the more you're going to be able to discern,
okay, is this me? Or is this the Holy Spirit?
Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so the illustration that
I use so often for that is my wife on the phone.
Okay. So follow along with me, right? I've been
married now for just a few weeks over 19 years.
We just had our anniversary not too long ago.
And so we're at 19 years, and we dated for a
few years before that. And so I've been with
my wife essentially for 20 years. And we definitely,
you know, we grew up in the time where actually
talking on the phone and not FaceTime or texting
was a thing. And we talked on the phone and we
actually had a long distance relationship through
college. Really? Yeah. And so we talked on the
phone a lot. And so my wife is someone that.
I know her voice immediately. Yeah. Absolutely
immediately when I'm talking on the phone. My
daughter, Cora, loves to play this game, and
she still does this today all the time. Okay.
Where I will call my wife's cell phone, and then
my kids are homeschooled, so they're always home.
Right. And my daughter, Cora, will answer the
phone, and all she'll say is hello. That's all
she'll say. Okay. But immediately I respond,
Hey Cora. And it frustrates the mess out of Cora.
She wants to trick me. Yes. She's trying to mess
with me and it's just one word, but that one,
and you know, she's, and she's tried it now for
a year, but still she has never been able to
trick me. Not saying she never will, but right
now she's never been able to trick me. And it's
not because. Essentially, I know Cora's voice.
Yeah. But it's because I know my wife's voice
because I talk with my wife all the time. And
even one singular word of someone trying to trick
me, a .k .a. wolves in sheep's clothing. Don't
look too deep into that illustration. Wolves
in sheep's clothing cannot trick me. I know my
wife's voice. And so I tell the students, the
more time you spend with Jesus, the more you're
going to hear his voice. How can you expect to
have discernment over spiritual matters if the
only time you spend in God's word is Wednesday
night and Sunday morning? Yeah. You're not going
to know the voice of God. You have got to spend
quality time with Jesus. You need to be spending
time with him because you desire to get to know
him better. And the more you do that, the more
you're going to know his voice. And here's the
interesting thing to me about this passage. The
sheep hear his voice and he calls them out, or
he calls out his own sheep by name and leads
them out. For me, one thing that I think about
is that before we were following the voice of
our shepherd, we were following some other voice.
And I think that varies person to person, right?
Either the voice of the society that we're living
in, this internal sense of what is right or wrong,
or just this internal sense of these are my desires.
I think there's part of the process of learning
to hear the Savior's voice or our shepherd's
voice. is recognizing the voices that we've been
listening to and that we're still listening to.
There are so many different voices that input
into us, and we have to choose what to do with
those. There's a discernment factor there. And
I think for me, there have been times in my life
where there's been what I would probably consider
a neutral voice, that the Lord has said, mute
that voice because I want to speak to you. And,
you know, one of the things going on, and I use
dating as a funny example. It ain't that funny,
Chief. But like I said, it's real for them. I
mean, these are big decisions for them, but it
goes beyond that. I mean, you think of many of
– we're in graduation season, and many of them
were wondering about the college they were going
to go to and trying to make that – that's a big
choice. That's going to influence the people
you're hanging around with, the type of community
that you're putting yourself in. And so the choice
of what college you go to is a big one, and I
think it's something that should be prayed about.
I've even seen experiences where – There's been
some well -meaning parents that have given their
students advice, and honestly, they should have
listened to the Holy Spirit. Let me say the example
so I don't have parents mad at me, right? Let
me give you one example. So I had a student a
number of years ago that was feeling called to
the mission field. He felt like this was something
they wanted to do. This freaked out their mom
so much. Scared mom to death. And was like, no,
you are not going to go on the mission field.
Absolutely not. So the girl ends up going off
to college. While in college, she gets the chance
to study abroad. And all of a sudden, mom's all
about that. Really? Yeah. And unfortunately,
when she went off to college. She didn't go to—she
fell in with the wrong crowd at college. We'll
just put it that way, right? And so those were
no longer desires of her heart that she had when
she was younger. And I was just like, man, I
wonder what would have happened if you would
have listened to the Holy Spirit, helped to guide
your parents through this process and this decision
instead of not. And so those are hard situations,
but that's why we need to know the difference
between the different voices that we're listening
to. Yeah, absolutely. That's why I think verse
5 is really unique, too, if we miss this. It
says, yet they will by no means follow a stranger.
If you look at that, you realize that they're
not going to follow. false teachers. And that's
what Jesus is getting a point across is that
if you know the Savior, you're going to follow
his voice. But I love this because Paul talks
about this in Ephesians chapter four, and it's
when he talked about equipping the saints. And
he talked about equipping them for the work of
the ministry, for the education of the body.
But he says this, he says, and of the knowledge
of the Son of God to a perfect man, to the measure
of the stature of the fullness of Christ, that
we should no longer be children tossed to and
fro and carried about with every wind of In other
words, a true Christian who follows Christ, hears
his voice, and will not be dragged around by
every doctrine or every whim that's out there.
And, I mean, we live in a society where, I mean,
I remember growing up. Pastors on television,
right? I mean, they would teach all kinds of
crazy, crazy mess. There's demons attached to
your thrift store finds. Oh, my goodness. Or
there's demons in certain buildings. And I'm
like, the only thing we ever see a demon possess
is a person in Scripture, not a place. And there
were just so many things like that. But the slaying
of the spirit was a big thing when I was growing
up, right? The Benny Hens, the different ones,
they were just throwing their hands out and people
would fall over. It was a lady in our church,
and she made a statement because a lot of the
churches were falling into that, this being slain
in the spirit. And she said, you know what? She
said, there's no need in somebody catching you
if you're slain in the spirit. And he said, yet
in every case, you see them catching them. And
she said this. She said, if the spirit will slay
you, he'll lay you. In other words, he's not
going to hurt you. But it was just, it's one
of those things, there's so many voices that
are out there, in particular teaching things
that are not scriptural. And he says here, Yet
they will by no means follow a stranger, but
will flee from him, for they do not know the
voice of strangers. We live in a day and age
where there are a lot of people out there speaking
and saying they are talking the voice of God,
that they are bringing his word, and they are
leading people astray greatly. And he says here,
my sheep are going to follow my voice. They're
not going to follow the voice of a stranger.
The only way that happens... is knowing the voice
of God. It's digging into His Word. It's hearing
clearly from Him. And so I worry about those
Christians that don't dig into the Word of God,
that do only get it Wednesdays and Sundays. Do
they really have a relationship with God? Because
I'll tell you, I wouldn't just talk to my wife
on Wednesday and Sunday. I've got to spend time
with her every single day, as we should with
God. So here's the question. Verse 5, like you
said, Strangers, they won't follow, but they
will flee from the stranger. They do not know
the voice of strangers. And Jesus is making this
point of, listen, I'm the real thing. I'm not
the counterfeit. And we've spent time kind of
exploring what it looks like to recognize the
real thing, or to recognize the counterfeits
because you know the real thing. Here's my question
for you guys. What about when you feel like you
can't hear his voice? Because I think it comes
in all Christians' lives, usually in a time of
difficulty. Absolutely. Where when you come to
the scriptures, man, they just feel dry. Or when
you go to pray, it feels like it's bouncing off
the ceiling or the nearest hard surface around
you. When you go to do community with believers
and experience the fellowship of the Holy Spirit
in that way, you still feel alone in a crowded
room. What do we do when... When we seek our
shepherd's voice, but we can't hear him. I figure
the problem's me. And it usually, well, no, it
always is me. It's not that God doesn't speak.
And truthfully, the Bible talks about this. It
says if there's sin in my heart, it puts a veil
between me and God. It's in the book of Isaiah.
It's in the book of Psalms. So it's me. I've
either clogged up my ears, don't want to hear.
truly hear from God or something's wrong with
my heart. And so usually if I'm not hearing from
God, I'm begging God to show me, am I just not
listening or do I have sin in my heart that's
keeping me from wanting to hear from you? So
from what I'm hearing you're saying is that that
silence becomes an indicator for you. Yes. It's
an indicator that something is amiss. Well, if
Maddie stopped talking to you, would you think
something was wrong? I sure would. I sure would.
You know what's funny about that, though, is
that, not the Maddie and I part, but the silence
being an indicator, in a strange way, that still
feels like a call towards relationship to me.
That if the spring of words and closeness with
God that we feel like goes dark, that one, we
know he's everywhere. His Holy Spirit lives in
us. And he's also physically present everywhere
else, the same as us recording this podcast.
And for you who are listening, he's in the car
with you or wherever. He allows the warmth of
his presence to grow just a little colder to
call you into deeper relationship with him. There's
a part of it. And that's something that I've
noticed, too, exactly what you just said. When
I've gone through seasons of difficulty like
that, where I was unsure if I was hearing the
voice of God, and it's very difficult times,
and when I've responded to it correctly, and
as I get older, and hopefully this continues
to happen, I feel like I do respond to it correctly,
I notice it draws me into deeper waters. than
I was usually at beforehand. And it does. It
draws me into a deeper relationship with Jesus
because I'm more relying on Him, more trying
to get rid of the outside voices that are speaking
to me and focus everything back onto Him. And
so that's what I've done sometimes for periods
of life. It's like, okay, what are some distractions
that I have right now that might be keeping me
from my relationship? And I'll really just start
thinking about my days or my weeks and say, okay,
I need to cut this, cut this, cut this. And sometimes
I might bring that thing back into my life later.
Sometimes I don't. I mean, just for me, and this
is not... for everybody. Yeah, it's a description.
But I've cut social media off my phone. The only
thing I have on there is TikTok. Everyone wants
to follow the scroll, but I used to spend way
too much time on Instagram and Facebook and Snapchat.
I've slowly cut all of those off of my phone,
and it has radically changed me mentally. Really?
By getting those off of my phone. Like I said,
that's not for everybody, but it's something
I needed, and I noticed it affected my relationship
with the Lord. And so because of that, that's
one of the ones I haven't gone back to. Now,
when I was a young man and I was newly married,
I had to cut video games out of my life. I did.
It was affecting my relationship with my wife
and the Lord. And so there was a period of time
that I literally sold all my games and did all
that stuff because I needed it out of my life.
Now, I've gone back, and I love playing video
games now. But there was a time. There was a
time that I had to get rid of it in my life.
And so that becomes a sacrifice, though. And
isn't that what worship is? That's exactly what
worship is. That's exactly where I was going,
dude. That it is giving up something of value.
Like, I'm reminded of when David is, you know,
David's trying to build the temple, and he wants
the ground to build the temple, and there's that
threshing floor there, right? And the dude's
like, dog, I'll just give it to you. Like, I
love Yahweh. You love Yahweh. You're also the
king, so, like, I really can't say no. So, like,
just have the threshing floor. David's like,
I will not offer the Lord God. something that
costs me nothing. And I think that he's the one
who determines the price that we pay, quote unquote,
the price that we pay. It's like you said, God
has not unilaterally asked every human that has
access to an Xbox or a gaming PC to give up video
games. But when you hear the voice of the shepherd
say, I'm offering you something deeper. Or maybe
to use a better word, a more biblical phrase,
follow me. That is a price worth paying. And
I think the follow me does fit as well with the
seasons of like, I didn't play video games then,
I play a little bit of video games now. But the
way that I play them is different and the heart
that I approach them with is different. Jesus
dragged his disciples. into Judea. He took them
to the 10 cities outside of Israel. He brought
them to Jerusalem. He took them to Tyre and Sidon.
You know, different seasons for different emphases
and different things. Well, that was a really
good conversation, fellas. But let's move on
to another text. So, Ben, I think it's your turn.
I got you. Yeah, I'm internally trying to resist
the urge to talk to you about video games. We'll
do that off mic. Let's keep it moving. Let's
keep it moving. Yes. So I focused on the Luke
13 passage. This is from May 23rd. Jesus does
a little bit of a controversial healing on the
Sabbath. So I'm going to read this text. Now
he, who's Jesus, was teaching in one of the synagogues
on the Sabbath. And behold, there was a woman
who had a disabling spirit for 18 years. Wow.
She was bent over and could not fully straighten
herself. When Jesus saw her, he called her over
and said to her, woman, you are freed from your
disability. And he laid his hands on her and
immediately she was made straight and she glorified
God. But the ruler of the synagogue, indignant
because Jesus was healed on the Sabbath, said
to the people, There are six days on which work
ought to be done. Come on those days and be healed
and not on the Sabbath day. And then the Lord
answered him, You hypocrites! Does not each of
you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey
from the manger and lead it away to water it?
And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham,
who Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed
from this bond on the Sabbath day? As he said
of these things, all his adversaries blip up
to shame and the people rejoiced at all the glorious
things that were done by him. A lot to unpack
in this text, like even in terms of like demonization
manifested as physical sickness and illness.
But the thing that stood out to me was the two
responses we see to God's power. When that lady
is healed. she immediately gives glory to God.
She gets it. She recognizes that this is an act
of the Lord. This is within his will. This is
something that he is doing for his people. This
is redemption. But the leader of the synagogue
is caught up in his own internal rules. And so
it leads him to make this like, like very like
snide aside. Cause it says it was indignant.
And he said to the people, He watches this go
on and he's like, y 'all saw that here, you know?
And once again, like, like it's easy to dunk
on the Pharisees and the Jews at the time. The
thing, the heart work that I brought out of this
for me was what rules am I holding on to or what
presuppositions about what my life is supposed
to look like are preventing me from giving glory
to God with what he does. Because, guys, there
are stuff in all of our lives that we look at
him and we're like, why? Why? This isn't in the
right order, God. Or this is not the way that
I wanted this to go. This is not the coffee I
ordered. I wanted oat milk. But in that, we miss
what he's doing in the middle of something that
surprises us. So that's what I pulled from this.
Is there an area where I'm being a hypocrite
like those people, recognizing what I call good
and claiming it higher than the good that Christ
has? You know, I wasn't even thinking of it like
that. And I'm always talking about how we should
put ourselves into Scripture. And it's so true,
man, because you look at this. And like I said,
it is so easy. It's so easy just to make fun
of, dunk on, as you said, the Pharisees and the
way the people respond. But we still do the same
things. Like I said, it's not laid out in Scripture
as obvious as this, because we read this and
we're like, come on, man. Indignant over someone
getting healed? Really? Like you made Jesus get
an exclamation point. You know how hard it is
for them to... But it's so true, man, that we
still do the same things today. And I personally
feel a great deal of tension internally about
when people are saying God is working in ways
that I don't understand. Like, John, you had
mentioned earlier the slain in the spirit thing.
I have no experience with that, and I haven't
really spent a lot of time in charismatic churches.
I tend to work at ones that look like this, and
so that's just not my area. And when you get
to stuff that doesn't look like it's there in
Scripture, there are questions. But I also know
people that are within that denomination that
have experienced real fruit. I know people who
have received a prophetic word or who view tongues
differently than I do theologically, that that
has blessed them and moved them closer to Jesus.
And so there's this weird tension of like, God,
I don't really... This is not as obvious as I
would like it to be in scripture. How do you
handle this? What do you think about this? And
I look at Jesus's... the first thing he says
to this woman, you are freed of your disability.
He doesn't say be healed, which he says a lot,
but you are freed from your disability. And it
makes me think that when we get to the end of
all this, when the role is called up yonder,
as it were. I'll be there. I told you you'd finish
any song lyric I quoted. When the role is called
up yonder. It's not going to be like, all right,
get out your fact sheets. Which denomination
got the closest to what God's real intended thing
is? It's going to be you are freed from your
disability. You are freed from your sin sickness.
And I don't care whether you believe that the
body of Christ is literally the bread and the
wine at communion, you believe in being slain
in the spirit or holy laughter, or you believe
that congregational singing is an opportunity
to stick your hands in your pockets and mumble
a couple of words. Like, he will free us all
from what binds us and keeps us. But the issue
is we like lists more than liberty. Come on.
So that's really the problem, and that's what
Galatians is all about, the freedom that we've
been given because it's easier to follow a list.
I mean, I'll be honest with you. My first church
down the road was a church that, I mean, when
I say a list, they had a list of things you had
to do to go to heaven and what was sin and what
wasn't sin. I mean, they had it down to a T.
Women didn't wear pants, and men had to wear
suits when they came to church. Really? Yeah,
if you wanted to go to heaven. If you had to
go to heaven. Those were salvation issues? Yes,
at this church. Now, it wasn't a church I was
at. It was a church down the street. No, no,
no. This was a church down the street, and it
was the largest church in Asheboro. Interesting.
So it was really surprising because, I mean,
they would bus these kids in and actually do
their Sunday school classes and stuff on the
bus. And anyways, it just, it's... Even today,
there are these churches that are thriving because
people want to list. It's easier if they know
A, B, C, and D versus saying, okay, I've got
to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit. Does
this convict my conscience? Because to be honest
with you, some things that are sin for me may
not be sin for you because of the freedom that
I have in God. This woman, I mean, she was experiencing
that because here was this list that these Pharisees
had. And I mean, it's funny to me that somebody
would go to Jesus and say, hey, look, you're
messing up our list. And instead of him saying,
you know what, I apologize for messing up your
list, he just looks at him and goes, your list
is garbage. Yeah. You know, you hypocrite. So
I'm sorry, sir. I don't see your healing on the
Sabbath permit, you know? Yes, yes, exactly.
Exactly. And so, I mean, it's just two points
on your license. It's just one of those things
where, you know, again, it's now that doesn't
give us a freedom to just go out and sin. The
Bible says, don't do it. Don't. do it well and
shall we send the gracious abound more by no
means i mean paul says that yeah so but here's
where i tell people like on other issues that
are not specifically stated thou shalt not okay
i tell them three things one does it bother my
conscience right because the bible makes it clear
if it bothers your conscience that's the holy
spirit speaking to you it's a sin for you you
know for some people It's a sin to go to rated
R movies for other people. They feel the freedom
and lacks to be able to do that, right? And so
they've got that freedom, at least they feel.
So if it bothers your conscience, you don't go,
right? The second one is, does it offend a brother?
Now, this is a very, you got to be real careful
with this. You do. Because let's be honest, the
people that are very ultra conservative, they
can say, well, that offends me. Well, no, no,
that's not the offense. The offense is, I'll
use an alcohol as an example. A guy struggles
with alcoholism. He's a drunk. He finally gets
free of it. But he sees a brother in Christ now
participating in it. And he sees that he's got
the freedom to do it. And he says to himself,
well, I'm going to go back. And so he goes back.
He falls. That's the offense. It takes him back
into a place where he doesn't need to be. Yes.
And so there is... The other issue, does it cause
a believer to be offended? The third thing is,
will it affect my witness as a Christian to a
non -believer? If I can answer all three of those
in saying this is not impactful, then it's not
a sin to me. But if in any way, any of those,
then I have to say, okay, it's a sin to me. Now,
that doesn't mean I now get to put it on you.
Right? There's that freedom, that liberty. I
don't put that on you. God has brought it to
my attention. Jesus is the one who decides what
to ask each specific one of us within the realm
of the laws that he's laid down. So my list may
be different than yours based on the liberty
that we have in Christ. Go Flames. Oh, different
liberty. My bad, my bad. There you go. No, that's
a great point to bring out. And it goes back,
all the way back. to the listening that Sean
was talking about earlier. If you're not locked
in and listening to the Holy Spirit, you're not
going to know what he's asking you to do or what
he's freed you to. Yeah, it's both of those things.
Well, gents, this has been a fun conversation.
We never know exactly how these are going to
go. We don't. We talk about, hey, what text are
you going to do? But that's it. But that's never
real. Like we don't, we don't go super in depth
into it beforehand. And so seeing the way that
those line up, I really hadn't even taken mine
that direction either. Yeah. But no, I love it.
What happens when we get together and we talk
about scripture. So guys, anything else y 'all
want to add before we sign off here on pursuing
Jesus is episode 21, by the way, summertime and
the living is easy. It's summer, man. It's summer.
Would you say blackjack? No, John would never
say that. He doesn't know what that is. He's
an SBC preacher. He doesn't know what blackjack
is. Oh, man, look at his face. He's royal flushing.
And with that, I have been Ben Smith. I have
been John Griffin. And I'm John Ferguson. This
is Pursuing Jesus. We're grateful for you guys.
We'll catch you on the next episode. Later. Goodbye.
Pursuing Jesus is a ministry of Memorial Baptist
Church in North Carolina. To learn more about
our church, please visit memorial4norwood .com.
Say that line one more time. No!