WEBVTT 00:00:03.909 --> 00:00:06.849 Hey, hey, hey, welcome to Pursuing Jesus. We 00:00:06.849 --> 00:00:10.750 are going to talk today about sacred cows. That's 00:00:10.750 --> 00:00:13.310 right, you heard it here, sacred cows. You will 00:00:13.310 --> 00:00:17.489 have to listen in, check things out. Today was 00:00:17.489 --> 00:00:20.269 really awesome, so we hope you are excited and 00:00:20.269 --> 00:00:32.750 ready to give it a listen. I felt like that was 00:00:32.750 --> 00:00:37.950 something. It was an old ringtone. Is that a 00:00:37.950 --> 00:00:39.469 ringtone? I think it's like an old Blackberry 00:00:39.469 --> 00:00:41.450 ringtone. Yes. It's something. I used to have 00:00:41.450 --> 00:00:43.450 it. That's why I know it. Okay, so what was the 00:00:43.450 --> 00:00:47.539 Blackberry experience like? I couldn't tell you 00:00:47.539 --> 00:00:50.700 it's been that long ago. Like a real keyboard. 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:52.780 I kind of miss it. Have you all seen the attachments 00:00:52.780 --> 00:00:54.880 like they're selling on Instagram or whatever 00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:57.759 where it's a keyboard that magnetizes to the 00:00:57.759 --> 00:00:59.740 back of your iPhone and it slides down and so 00:00:59.740 --> 00:01:01.560 you've got a physical keyboard to type on? I 00:01:01.560 --> 00:01:04.200 do miss a physical keyboard. Really? Do you feel 00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:06.359 like it would make more or less spelling errors? 00:01:06.420 --> 00:01:10.219 Because those buttons are itty -bitty. That's 00:01:10.219 --> 00:01:12.519 one of the reasons that I go for a big screen 00:01:12.519 --> 00:01:15.599 because then you have... Bigger keys. Now, have 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:17.239 you seen Tiffany's phone? No, I haven't. What 00:01:17.239 --> 00:01:18.219 does she have? I don't even know if they make 00:01:18.219 --> 00:01:20.140 it anymore, but it's an older iPhone, but it's 00:01:20.140 --> 00:01:22.840 called the iPhone Mini. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:24.540 it is tiny. That's not that old. That's like 00:01:24.540 --> 00:01:27.879 maybe two, three generations ago. I don't know 00:01:27.879 --> 00:01:29.060 if they've stopped making them. I think they've 00:01:29.060 --> 00:01:32.280 stopped putting that one out. Dang. But it is, 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:35.900 it's a challenge to type on that one. Yeah. I 00:01:35.900 --> 00:01:37.840 remember when my son got the first, like what, 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:41.700 XL iPhone. Yeah. And I was like. dude, they're 00:01:41.700 --> 00:01:43.159 going to eventually come out with like a tablet 00:01:43.159 --> 00:01:45.540 for a phone, you know, as big as that thing was. 00:01:45.599 --> 00:01:48.500 And now I have the big one and I'm like, I think 00:01:48.500 --> 00:01:50.659 it's the pro is what it's called now. Well, they've 00:01:50.659 --> 00:01:52.739 hinted at the folding ones like because Samsung 00:01:52.739 --> 00:01:54.500 has been doing it for five. I've been right, 00:01:54.540 --> 00:01:56.659 but they've hinted at the folding ones that like 00:01:56.659 --> 00:01:59.480 you can use it one way and then open it and it's 00:01:59.480 --> 00:02:01.680 another way. Yeah, I don't know if they'll the 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:03.640 really funny thing about that though is before 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:06.879 touchscreen phone started coming out yeah the 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:09.000 trend was smaller and smaller and smaller yes 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:12.360 and now we're trending the opposite direction 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:14.800 but think about the usage of the phone at the 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:17.319 time we're smaller oh yeah it made sense um versus 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:20.439 the usage now i mean now it's like like phone 00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:23.520 text social media people watching movies stuff 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:25.020 like that but back in the day when it was like 00:02:25.020 --> 00:02:27.259 you got nine you know what is that the typing 00:02:27.259 --> 00:02:29.919 call where you have to press 116 oh i had that 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:33.110 with my flip phone uh It is something nine. It's 00:02:33.110 --> 00:02:34.330 something, I don't remember what the first word 00:02:34.330 --> 00:02:37.370 is. T9? T9? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you didn't 00:02:37.370 --> 00:02:38.870 have to push it six times. You could only push 00:02:38.870 --> 00:02:40.830 it up to three times because, you know, it was 00:02:40.830 --> 00:02:42.889 like if you were using the last letter that was 00:02:42.889 --> 00:02:45.509 on that number, you pressed it three times to 00:02:45.509 --> 00:02:48.069 use that letter, and then, yeah. Now, as much 00:02:48.069 --> 00:02:49.389 as I want to go back to a physical keyboard, 00:02:49.509 --> 00:02:53.050 I do not want to go back to the T9. Okay, that's 00:02:53.050 --> 00:02:55.069 a bridge too far, you think? Oh, that's too far. 00:02:55.250 --> 00:02:57.949 Yeah, I think we hit peak cell phones with the 00:02:57.949 --> 00:03:01.340 slide -out keypads. You know, you had the like 00:03:01.340 --> 00:03:02.939 the nice little click there and it was like a 00:03:02.939 --> 00:03:04.879 T -Mobile had the best one T -Mobile because 00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:06.699 it was exclusive to T -Mobile and they had the 00:03:06.699 --> 00:03:10.219 sidekick which flipped out and I was always switchblade 00:03:10.219 --> 00:03:13.520 phone. I was always jealous because I did not 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:16.139 have T -Mobile and so I did not have the flip 00:03:16.139 --> 00:03:19.039 out keyboard that was it was and I was very jealous 00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:20.759 of my friends at school who had the flip out 00:03:20.759 --> 00:03:24.580 keyboard. Yeah, no, I hear on that one. Well, 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:28.120 speaking of... Speaking of flip out phones, welcome 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:32.659 to Pursuing Jesus. No. I think it's good that 00:03:32.659 --> 00:03:35.520 the congregation hears some of the deep... rigorous 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:38.120 theological discourse that we have before we 00:03:38.120 --> 00:03:40.280 press record sometimes. You know, it just goes 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:43.439 to show you that God cares about every aspect 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:45.199 of our lives, not just when we're explicitly 00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:47.659 discussing theology. Including cell phones, right? 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:49.719 Including, listen, I think God has a lot to say 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:51.180 about our cell phones. I think that's a whole 00:03:51.180 --> 00:03:53.139 different podcast right there. I mean, I'm dead 00:03:53.139 --> 00:03:55.020 serious. Somebody write that down. So we've got, 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:58.599 we have AI. We talked about AI. We did. It was 00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:02.060 a long intro. Long intro. But I still think I 00:04:02.060 --> 00:04:03.639 heard some people that want more. Dead Sea Scrolls, 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:08.199 AI. Jesus and Your Cell Phone. That's three special 00:04:08.199 --> 00:04:12.840 episodes. Just the topic of technology, we could 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:16.180 subcategorize that into a couple months worth 00:04:16.180 --> 00:04:20.379 of podcast material. Let's just be honest. Digital 00:04:20.379 --> 00:04:24.000 Jesus. We're going to find some zany name to 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:28.339 call it too. First century text 21st century. 00:04:28.339 --> 00:04:32.089 That's why we have you. We have you, Mr. What 00:04:32.089 --> 00:04:36.170 are you? He's not a millennial. No, he's not 00:04:36.170 --> 00:04:39.410 millennial. You're Gen Z, aren't you? I am right 00:04:39.410 --> 00:04:42.939 on the border. I was born in 99. dating myself 00:04:42.939 --> 00:04:46.019 here um and so like oh yeah don't don't date 00:04:46.019 --> 00:04:49.500 yourself too far with 99 no i said that for y 00:04:49.500 --> 00:04:52.759 'all's benefit so i have some millennial tendencies 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:55.740 and i have some zillennial tendencies um but 00:04:55.740 --> 00:04:58.259 there are people within my age range like hate 00:04:58.259 --> 00:05:01.769 being identified with both groups urgency You 00:05:01.769 --> 00:05:04.209 think decidedly I'm a Gen Z because you hate 00:05:04.209 --> 00:05:05.990 being labeled. Yes, you're a Gen Z. Oh, shut 00:05:05.990 --> 00:05:09.689 up. Man, congregation, what you just heard is 00:05:09.689 --> 00:05:12.509 that hit right home. I'm not going to deal with 00:05:12.509 --> 00:05:17.089 that. John, do you want to start us with your 00:05:17.089 --> 00:05:20.629 text? Save me some of my dignity. Yeah, let's 00:05:20.629 --> 00:05:25.029 do that. Let's do that. Yeah, I took April 26th. 00:05:25.790 --> 00:05:27.490 It was a really short passage, and I'm looking 00:05:27.490 --> 00:05:30.290 at the one in Matthew, Matthew 11, verses 20 00:05:30.290 --> 00:05:33.110 to 24, because there's a lot of questions a lot 00:05:33.110 --> 00:05:35.509 of times that come up from this passage, simply 00:05:35.509 --> 00:05:38.509 because Jesus calls out some cities. I mean, 00:05:38.550 --> 00:05:42.560 really. really calls them out. I mean, 21, woe 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:45.879 to you, Chorazin. Woe to you, Bethsaida, for 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:48.079 if the miracles had occurred in you, which had 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:50.500 occurred in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented 00:05:50.500 --> 00:05:53.519 long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Nevertheless, 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:55.019 I say to you, it would be more tolerable for 00:05:55.019 --> 00:05:56.839 Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for 00:05:56.839 --> 00:05:59.860 you. And you, Capernaum, which will not be exalted 00:05:59.860 --> 00:06:01.680 to heaven, will you? You will be brought down 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:03.800 to Hades, for if the miracles that occurred in 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:05.839 you had been occurred in Sodom, it would have 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:08.779 remained to this day. And so he compares these 00:06:08.779 --> 00:06:11.639 cities that he did his miracles in to some of 00:06:11.639 --> 00:06:14.639 the worst cities in the Old Testament times. 00:06:14.819 --> 00:06:17.399 I mean, just look at the last one. He said that 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:20.680 Sodom basically was better than Capernaum, right? 00:06:20.819 --> 00:06:25.259 I mean, it's because of what he did in Capernaum. 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:27.920 That was Jesus' home base for a while. Yes, yes. 00:06:28.100 --> 00:06:32.100 And so they saw some of the most incredible miracles, 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:35.089 whereas Sodom... really saw the judgment of God. 00:06:35.269 --> 00:06:37.069 They, you know, I mean, let's just be honest. 00:06:37.089 --> 00:06:39.029 Too little, too late, bud. He brought down fire, 00:06:39.310 --> 00:06:41.910 brimstone, tore those cities up. Now, granted, 00:06:41.990 --> 00:06:47.009 he did. Lot was a messenger of hope there. I 00:06:47.009 --> 00:06:49.550 don't know how much hope he brought them. And 00:06:49.550 --> 00:06:51.910 then those angels came down and visited among 00:06:51.910 --> 00:06:54.949 them. But, you know, God brought down destruction 00:06:54.949 --> 00:06:57.790 upon them because of their great sin. Whereas 00:06:57.790 --> 00:07:00.279 Capernaum... as opposed to receiving the judgment, 00:07:00.379 --> 00:07:02.959 they received the miracles. They got to see Jesus 00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:05.180 heal the blind, make the lame to walk. Yeah. 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:09.220 All those incredible things. So what this says 00:07:09.220 --> 00:07:12.040 to me today and what I get from it, I'm going 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:14.000 to kind of use a Spider -Man line. I told you 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:15.899 I was going to do that earlier. With great power 00:07:15.899 --> 00:07:18.100 comes great responsibility. There it is. But 00:07:18.100 --> 00:07:22.040 what it is is with more knowledge comes greater 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:25.220 responsibility. In other words, a lot of people 00:07:25.220 --> 00:07:27.730 have asked the question, are there different 00:07:27.730 --> 00:07:30.250 levels of hell? And the answer is, it seems so. 00:07:30.610 --> 00:07:33.290 It seems that those who have greater knowledge 00:07:33.290 --> 00:07:37.089 and deny it and push away from it, there is going 00:07:37.089 --> 00:07:40.170 to be a greater judgment on them. Now, there's 00:07:40.170 --> 00:07:41.850 another passage that teaches this in the Gospel 00:07:41.850 --> 00:07:45.689 of Luke. Specifically, he who has much will be 00:07:45.689 --> 00:07:47.410 beaten with many stripes, he who has little will 00:07:47.410 --> 00:07:49.930 be beaten with fewer stripes. And it seems to 00:07:49.930 --> 00:07:52.930 detail that those that have more knowledge. And 00:07:52.930 --> 00:07:56.800 so I wanted to kind of equate that to Our country. 00:07:57.220 --> 00:08:00.600 I wonder how much trouble are we going to be 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:04.560 in in America with the knowledge of the gospel 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:08.160 that we have and the denial that is put forth 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:11.420 in so many places. What do you think the denial 00:08:11.420 --> 00:08:13.500 looks like here? Yeah, that's a good question. 00:08:13.500 --> 00:08:16.199 Because I think there's an important distinguisher 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:18.339 here. So what do you think America's denial looks 00:08:18.339 --> 00:08:21.149 like? Well, I mean, you look at how many people 00:08:21.149 --> 00:08:23.769 want to talk about we are not founded on freedom 00:08:23.769 --> 00:08:26.889 or, you know, a lot of people want to deny that 00:08:26.889 --> 00:08:28.790 we were founded on Christian principles when 00:08:28.790 --> 00:08:30.730 they came over, the Puritans and the different 00:08:30.730 --> 00:08:33.690 ones that came over during that time. But I think 00:08:33.690 --> 00:08:35.750 the denial really is the fact that you've got 00:08:35.750 --> 00:08:39.190 to look at the northeast. If you've ever studied 00:08:39.190 --> 00:08:42.990 the Great Awakening, the great revivals of America. 00:08:43.690 --> 00:08:46.830 They occurred in the Northeast, and now the Northeast 00:08:46.830 --> 00:08:51.950 is 1%, 2%, and 3 % churched. Connecticut, Vermont, 00:08:52.490 --> 00:08:57.429 Maine, Massachusetts. These were the prime driven 00:08:57.429 --> 00:09:00.389 places with great preachers like Jonathan Edwards. 00:09:00.750 --> 00:09:03.629 The original seminaries and all that. Yes. And 00:09:03.629 --> 00:09:06.809 now look at them with their denial. There are 00:09:06.809 --> 00:09:10.980 so few. In church, there is such a transformation 00:09:10.980 --> 00:09:13.139 of the seminaries, like you said, the colleges. 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:16.059 Most people don't realize this, but Harvard was 00:09:16.059 --> 00:09:20.019 a Christian school. Isn't that wild? Yeah. And 00:09:20.019 --> 00:09:23.860 then let's bring it down to the South where we're 00:09:23.860 --> 00:09:28.960 at, right? The denial now is we want a Jesus 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:33.799 our way, not the Jesus of the Bible. And so I 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:36.179 think the denial is different from us because, 00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:39.120 you know, In our own community, I think we are, 00:09:39.259 --> 00:09:42.720 in Stanley County, 46 % churched. I think that's 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:45.039 right. When I was in Tennessee, the community 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:48.539 there was like 44 % churched. I've been in Alabama, 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:51.620 and in that community, I think it was like 56%. 00:09:51.620 --> 00:09:56.379 So you're talking at least midway range. But 00:09:56.379 --> 00:10:00.750 even in the church, there is a denial. of Christ 00:10:00.750 --> 00:10:04.750 and his miracles, there's a denial of the true 00:10:04.750 --> 00:10:08.269 and genuine Jesus. Yeah, absolutely. We formulate 00:10:08.269 --> 00:10:10.509 him into our own opinion. So that's kind of where 00:10:10.509 --> 00:10:13.629 I see America being in, almost, we're heading 00:10:13.629 --> 00:10:15.769 kind of in the ways of Europe in a lot of ways. 00:10:15.950 --> 00:10:17.529 Honestly, John, I completely see where you're 00:10:17.529 --> 00:10:20.929 coming from. So one of the interesting trends 00:10:20.929 --> 00:10:24.429 that... I feel like we watched happen in the 00:10:24.429 --> 00:10:27.269 Northeast, and I'm a little nervous about what 00:10:27.269 --> 00:10:29.149 I see here in the South. I mean, I'm from the 00:10:29.149 --> 00:10:30.470 South. I spent a little bit of time in Ohio. 00:10:30.669 --> 00:10:33.289 I don't sound like it, but I was born in Alabama. 00:10:33.529 --> 00:10:40.000 O -H -I -O. Listen, man, it's my family. So Maddie's 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:42.340 family of origin is like they're they're Buckeyes 00:10:42.340 --> 00:10:45.259 through and through when Ohio State has played 00:10:45.259 --> 00:10:48.120 Alabama like like I don't get a text for a week 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:50.700 beforehand or a week after it's a party. It's 00:10:50.700 --> 00:10:54.399 a party. So not to get us off on a too much of 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:56.620 a squirrel, but I am genuinely curious because 00:10:56.620 --> 00:11:00.440 what I know of Ohio is OH and you responded with 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:02.600 IO. Is that a sports thing or is that a state 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:04.860 thing? Yes. So it belongs to a certain. It does 00:11:04.860 --> 00:11:06.970 belong to a certain like. to the buckeyes the 00:11:06.970 --> 00:11:09.370 ohio ohio state but you need to understand that 00:11:09.370 --> 00:11:14.110 like it is deeply culturally unified. Dude, they 00:11:14.110 --> 00:11:17.230 got OSU stuff every... So there's not like another 00:11:17.230 --> 00:11:20.990 big college. They're like other Ohioans. When 00:11:20.990 --> 00:11:24.309 her family comes down, you need to introduce 00:11:24.309 --> 00:11:28.190 them to Kellen Rankin. Kellen is the biggest 00:11:28.190 --> 00:11:31.610 Michigan fan and that is their main rival. It 00:11:31.610 --> 00:11:34.649 is their main rival. I think, you know, Kellen, 00:11:34.710 --> 00:11:36.970 no offense, I am not letting you anywhere near 00:11:36.970 --> 00:11:40.350 my head loss when they come down. But no, it's... 00:11:40.750 --> 00:11:42.669 It's real, dude. When they lost the national 00:11:42.669 --> 00:11:46.029 championship relatively recently, like the Thompson's 00:11:46.029 --> 00:11:48.350 went into a season of mourning. But isn't that 00:11:48.350 --> 00:11:51.730 what they do in Alabama, too? Oh, 100%. All I'm 00:11:51.730 --> 00:11:54.009 saying is that Ohio is singular focus. At least 00:11:54.009 --> 00:11:56.250 in Alabama, you got Alabama and Auburn. And so 00:11:56.250 --> 00:11:59.169 when they lose to one another, that other group 00:11:59.169 --> 00:12:01.429 doesn't come to church. I know this personally. 00:12:01.590 --> 00:12:04.370 I'm sure you do. I'm sure you do. This sets me 00:12:04.370 --> 00:12:07.169 up really well, though. So like these deeply 00:12:07.169 --> 00:12:11.570 ingrained. sports rivalries and sports allegiances. 00:12:11.610 --> 00:12:15.110 Listen, dude, I watch football. Not a bunch, 00:12:15.210 --> 00:12:17.549 but I do. And there's nothing wrong with our 00:12:17.549 --> 00:12:20.730 enjoyment of sports. But these deeply ingrained... 00:12:21.529 --> 00:12:25.110 sports rivalries i think are indicative of traditions 00:12:25.110 --> 00:12:27.549 that have become part of the culture yeah that 00:12:27.549 --> 00:12:29.649 people just like dude they sink their they sink 00:12:29.649 --> 00:12:31.129 their teeth into it and it's because it's fun 00:12:31.129 --> 00:12:34.690 to do so but if you look at to bring it way back 00:12:34.690 --> 00:12:36.570 to what we're talking about the northeast if 00:12:36.570 --> 00:12:41.220 you look back at the direction that a lot of 00:12:41.220 --> 00:12:44.399 the church populations went there. They didn't 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:47.179 just go straight from flourishing in the great 00:12:47.179 --> 00:12:50.480 awakening to dead. Their very next step was to 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:52.759 idolize their traditions. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:55.600 like a slow fade. Like that one song. Yeah. Casting 00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:58.330 crowns. Shout out to them. Yep. but like they 00:12:58.330 --> 00:13:01.090 need a shout out. They need some help. Do they? 00:13:01.470 --> 00:13:06.029 No. Shout out Casting Crowns, the biggest worship 00:13:06.029 --> 00:13:07.730 group that there is right now. They're doing 00:13:07.730 --> 00:13:12.049 great. I just like their music. Listen, I got 00:13:12.049 --> 00:13:13.970 saved. Oh, I love Casting Crowns. I got saved 00:13:13.970 --> 00:13:15.629 through Casting Crowns song. Okay, I'm for it. 00:13:15.690 --> 00:13:18.070 Dude, Mark Hall, full -time youth pastor, full 00:13:18.070 --> 00:13:21.710 -time going and doing concerts. Incredible. Incredible. 00:13:21.970 --> 00:13:24.970 Yeah. Full -time nerd. Yeah, for sure. But all 00:13:24.970 --> 00:13:28.120 that to say, like, I think that the path to the 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:31.740 death of the church is paved with worshiping 00:13:31.740 --> 00:13:35.840 tradition over genuine commitment to biblical 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:39.059 authority and genuine commitment to lay down 00:13:39.059 --> 00:13:41.639 our preferences at the throne of Jesus. Because 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:44.700 then it has the appearance of godliness. I can't 00:13:44.700 --> 00:13:47.200 remember where it says this in the Gospels. The 00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:49.700 appearance of godliness, but it denies its power. 00:13:50.009 --> 00:13:52.509 And this goes back to, I mean, it fit in exactly 00:13:52.509 --> 00:13:55.330 in with what John was saying. And even we talked 00:13:55.330 --> 00:13:57.549 about this, I believe, on last week's podcast 00:13:57.549 --> 00:14:01.549 of the consumer mentality of church. Yeah. And 00:14:01.549 --> 00:14:05.570 it's just all of it. It's so difficult because 00:14:05.570 --> 00:14:10.070 we are consumer -minded culture. And so it is. 00:14:10.750 --> 00:14:12.549 It's not like we're just blasting people, be 00:14:12.549 --> 00:14:13.730 like, man, you need to stop doing this about 00:14:13.730 --> 00:14:16.429 church. No. This is difficult for us as Americans. 00:14:16.570 --> 00:14:19.740 Oh, yeah. It really is because everything. that 00:14:19.740 --> 00:14:22.399 we do is we're putting the shiniest stuff in 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:24.080 front of our eyes, and we're doing all this stuff, 00:14:24.179 --> 00:14:26.539 and it's all of this consumer -driven mentality. 00:14:26.779 --> 00:14:29.299 And so, of course, when we get to church, we 00:14:29.299 --> 00:14:31.179 are going to look for, hey, what do you got for 00:14:31.179 --> 00:14:33.980 my kids? How good is your worship? How good is 00:14:33.980 --> 00:14:36.080 the preaching? How is this? Or whatever it is 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:38.139 that you're looking for, whatever that niche 00:14:38.139 --> 00:14:42.379 is. Niche? Niche. Niche. Niche. Niche. Thank 00:14:42.379 --> 00:14:45.679 you. Whatever that is, you're going to go out 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:48.799 and look for it. Genuinely. And so, But that's 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:50.419 what we're talking about. We need to overcome 00:14:50.419 --> 00:14:52.940 that. And we need to be able to look and say, 00:14:53.019 --> 00:14:56.539 hey, just because we do this at the grocery store, 00:14:56.700 --> 00:14:59.240 just because we do this shopping for cars or 00:14:59.240 --> 00:15:01.899 whatever else in our American life that we do, 00:15:02.059 --> 00:15:04.899 we need to realize this is not the same when 00:15:04.899 --> 00:15:06.940 it comes to spiritual matters. No, but I'll tell 00:15:06.940 --> 00:15:09.659 you this. So like a very close to home example 00:15:09.659 --> 00:15:11.740 for me actually is with worship. So I'm going 00:15:11.740 --> 00:15:14.500 to tell a story here. When I graduated Cedarville 00:15:14.500 --> 00:15:18.759 with my degree, I had some very specific preferences 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:21.000 about worship music. I leaned hardcore contemporary 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:23.779 and like, just kind of like, like felt like the 00:15:23.779 --> 00:15:26.899 hymns were dusty and dry and blah. The church 00:15:26.899 --> 00:15:29.320 that I served at first hired me on to be like 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:32.419 a contemporary input to what is, was more of 00:15:32.419 --> 00:15:35.360 a traditional context. And man, the first year 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:38.100 I was like, Oh, we're going to play come now 00:15:38.100 --> 00:15:41.659 found again. Come on a mighty fortress. Seriously. 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:44.480 Like, like I had this attitude is like, this 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:47.220 is, this is, this is dead. This is old, this 00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:49.759 is dusty. But can I tell you, the Lord convicted 00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:53.039 me so hard about that when I was there. Both 00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:55.860 in terms of letting me see the legacy of the 00:15:55.860 --> 00:15:57.620 believers that have gone before us and left us 00:15:57.620 --> 00:16:00.480 these rich hymns. But man, that was me putting 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:04.559 my traditions and my preferences over what the 00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:06.019 needs of the church were. Because there were 00:16:06.019 --> 00:16:08.740 people there that got fed by those. And the Lord 00:16:08.740 --> 00:16:12.879 was gracious enough to humble me and teach me, 00:16:12.980 --> 00:16:16.080 these have value, and if you put your traditions 00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:18.960 before me, you will lose me. Hey, I've got a 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:21.320 question. Okay. And so I'm about to get us off 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:24.679 topic of... where we're going as far as the pursuing 00:16:24.679 --> 00:16:27.320 Jesus devotion, but I'm staying on Bible. So 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:29.120 are y 'all cool with that? We're staying on Bible. 00:16:29.179 --> 00:16:30.899 Let's do it. So, cause I have a legit question 00:16:30.899 --> 00:16:32.759 that I think you might be able to help me with. 00:16:34.340 --> 00:16:36.500 I've mentioned it that I've been, I've been reading 00:16:36.500 --> 00:16:39.000 the Psalms along with the pursuing Jesus devotion 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:41.379 and I've been there. And there's a phrase that's 00:16:41.379 --> 00:16:45.379 been repeated many times. And I'm wondering just 00:16:45.379 --> 00:16:47.419 because of your degree, because of being worship, 00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:51.039 it's about music. If you understand it, or if 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:52.980 you've looked into this, And what you just said 00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:55.799 reminded me. And that is many times, and I believe 00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:59.460 it's mainly David in his Psalms, he will say, 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:03.340 sing to me a new song. Why does he say a new 00:17:03.340 --> 00:17:05.500 song? Do you have any idea? I'm just telling 00:17:05.500 --> 00:17:07.099 you, we have not discussed this. I'm just throwing 00:17:07.099 --> 00:17:08.460 this on you. Because he liked the contemporary 00:17:08.460 --> 00:17:11.259 Christian group's new song. Please don't call 00:17:11.259 --> 00:17:15.420 them contemporary. Moving on. They forced themselves 00:17:15.420 --> 00:17:17.200 to stay in the winter gym. They were awesome. 00:17:17.619 --> 00:17:19.279 Because they run winter gym. Because they run 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:21.799 it. And that's why they're still relevant. Their 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:24.900 vocal harmonies are great. But do you have any 00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:29.259 idea? Yeah. So Colossians 3 .16. teach and admonish 00:17:29.259 --> 00:17:31.799 one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:34.980 songs. And so this is part of my own philosophy 00:17:34.980 --> 00:17:37.759 of worship. The way I interpret that is psalms 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:42.059 is as believers sing psalms, P -S -A -L -M -S, 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:45.700 from the text that the Lord gave us, the Hebrew 00:17:45.700 --> 00:17:48.900 hymn book, whatever, whatever. Hymns, I would 00:17:48.900 --> 00:17:52.200 interpret as established songs of the church. 00:17:52.380 --> 00:17:54.759 We've been singing these for a while. Let's draw 00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:57.220 this out here. That has nothing to do with style. 00:17:57.910 --> 00:17:59.809 Sure. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because back then, 00:17:59.930 --> 00:18:01.849 dude, they didn't have organs. The Romans had 00:18:01.849 --> 00:18:03.730 a water organ, but that was really expensive. 00:18:04.329 --> 00:18:06.549 And it was mainly probably sung a cappella. You 00:18:06.549 --> 00:18:08.430 should look it up. It's actually a water organ. 00:18:08.509 --> 00:18:10.210 Yeah, so rather than running on air, it ran on 00:18:10.210 --> 00:18:14.329 water. It was really neat. Nerd alert here. Now 00:18:14.329 --> 00:18:17.130 I want to hear this. Spiritual songs. You should 00:18:17.130 --> 00:18:19.309 look it up. It's very ambient, like the Minecraft 00:18:19.309 --> 00:18:24.059 soundtrack. Oh, cool. spiritual songs, commentators 00:18:24.059 --> 00:18:28.059 fight over this pretty consistently. Some say 00:18:28.059 --> 00:18:30.660 songs that were spontaneous, like from that moment. 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:33.299 Some say songs that the Holy Spirit gave them. 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:36.480 Some say spiritual songs were just new stuff. 00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:39.759 And I tend to give a big fat yes to each of those. 00:18:40.140 --> 00:18:43.940 But what I think David means there is like... 00:18:44.619 --> 00:18:48.059 Have you ever not been able to find the words 00:18:48.059 --> 00:18:50.259 to express something outside of what you could 00:18:50.259 --> 00:18:53.380 say yourself? All the time. Right. Like, if you're 00:18:53.380 --> 00:18:55.900 only trying to use the words that other people 00:18:55.900 --> 00:18:57.559 have given you, sometimes it just doesn't quite 00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:00.480 fit. And so I think when David says, sing a new 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:02.700 song of the Lord, it's like, take what God has 00:19:02.700 --> 00:19:05.420 done in your life for you through the power of 00:19:05.420 --> 00:19:07.859 his Holy Spirit as he works in you and your experiences 00:19:07.859 --> 00:19:10.039 and your personality, pour that back out as a 00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:12.319 unique offering to the Lord. And the blessing 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:14.240 of that is that at times, you know, that gets 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:16.740 to feed even more people. Like, I had a buddy 00:19:16.740 --> 00:19:20.089 who was at... a Chris Tomlin concert when he 00:19:20.089 --> 00:19:21.930 sang how great is our God for the first time. 00:19:22.450 --> 00:19:25.069 So like, like quintessential, like, like one 00:19:25.069 --> 00:19:28.210 of the defining Christian songs of the, the two 00:19:28.210 --> 00:19:31.049 thousands, how great is our God. And Chris was 00:19:31.049 --> 00:19:32.869 like, you know, this is just a simple song we're 00:19:32.869 --> 00:19:34.069 working on. Not really sure it's going to go 00:19:34.069 --> 00:19:35.809 anywhere. We feel like we need to sing it to 00:19:35.809 --> 00:19:39.289 you. Sing it. That was a spiritual song for Chris. 00:19:39.529 --> 00:19:43.009 I think he wrote it. He wrote it. It was from 00:19:43.009 --> 00:19:44.970 his own experience. It stood out to him at the 00:19:44.970 --> 00:19:47.910 time. He shared it, and bam, it falls, I think, 00:19:47.930 --> 00:19:49.910 closer to the category now of what I would consider 00:19:49.910 --> 00:19:53.150 a hymn. Not stylistically, but it's a well -established, 00:19:53.150 --> 00:19:55.450 accepted truth of the church. Interesting. When 00:19:55.450 --> 00:19:57.269 you think about hymn, though, we always think 00:19:57.269 --> 00:19:59.730 of what's in the Baptist hymnal or the Methodist 00:19:59.730 --> 00:20:03.420 hymnal. And it's funny. Because if you look back 00:20:03.420 --> 00:20:06.319 in the 15s and 1600s, those were the spiritual 00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:08.740 songs. Yep. The contemporary songs. Uh -huh. 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.380 And what's funny to me, a lot of people, they're 00:20:11.380 --> 00:20:14.359 so adamant about the hymns. And I love hymns. 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:17.339 Don't get me wrong. Holy, holy, holy. Oh, 100%. 00:20:17.339 --> 00:20:19.500 Still my favorite hymn. It's a band. And There 00:20:19.500 --> 00:20:22.140 is a Fountain is second, just because I wrote 00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:26.359 it and love it. But anyways, a lot of those songs 00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:30.640 were bar songs. Yep. And then they would change 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:34.460 the wording and sing it in the church. And people 00:20:34.460 --> 00:20:37.019 that had been all night at the bar passing by 00:20:37.019 --> 00:20:39.160 the church would hear the song and think, did 00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:41.480 I drink too much? And end up going into the church 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:43.819 because they're hearing the tune to their favorite 00:20:43.819 --> 00:20:47.599 bar song. Right. Which was a hymn. Was a hymn. 00:20:47.619 --> 00:20:50.319 In our books now. And let's take that a step 00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:52.619 further. They didn't have organs or pianos in 00:20:52.619 --> 00:20:56.519 those bars. It was usually on a lute or a guitar. 00:20:57.200 --> 00:20:59.680 both of which are predecessors of the modern 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:03.900 guitar. And so I understand not wanting to have 00:21:03.900 --> 00:21:06.000 the appearance of worldliness, but you can't 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.200 just write off a whole instrument. I love that 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:10.759 you highlighted that, that that which is a spiritual 00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:13.759 song can become a hymn with time and testing 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:16.259 and just the church singing those and getting 00:21:16.259 --> 00:21:17.680 them into their hearts. But you know, thinking 00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:19.619 about tradition, a buddy of mine gave me a book 00:21:19.619 --> 00:21:21.819 in my first church, and it was called Who Moved 00:21:21.819 --> 00:21:24.259 My Cheese? I know it sounds funny. No, that's 00:21:24.259 --> 00:21:25.680 a good book. You have heard it. That's a good 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:28.259 book I've read it. No, not that. Move my cheese. 00:21:28.539 --> 00:21:31.880 And it's phenomenal because it is the way we 00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:35.079 get steeped in traditions. And he made his favorite 00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:38.410 statement that he would make is. Oh, what was 00:21:38.410 --> 00:21:41.109 it? Sacred cows make the best hamburger. Okay, 00:21:41.170 --> 00:21:44.609 I like that. I've never heard that before. Oh, 00:21:44.609 --> 00:21:47.569 man. My buddy, his name was Dale, and he used 00:21:47.569 --> 00:21:49.750 that all the time. When he handed me that book, 00:21:49.789 --> 00:21:51.170 he's like, you've got to read this book. He said, 00:21:51.230 --> 00:21:53.430 but just know, sacred cows make the best hamburger. 00:21:53.630 --> 00:21:56.049 And I died laughing, and I was like, I don't 00:21:56.049 --> 00:21:57.329 think I'll ever use that in a pulpit, though. 00:21:57.609 --> 00:22:02.049 Oh, no, you got to. Like, please. We have podcast 00:22:02.049 --> 00:22:04.130 listeners now. They're going to be keeping you 00:22:04.130 --> 00:22:05.809 accountable to see when you're going to use this 00:22:05.809 --> 00:22:09.069 from the pulpit. I mean, I know we're kind of 00:22:09.069 --> 00:22:11.190 being funny, but I think, so can you unpack that 00:22:11.190 --> 00:22:12.589 a little bit? Because, I mean, we just kind of 00:22:12.589 --> 00:22:15.470 skipped over sacred cows make the best hamburger. 00:22:15.630 --> 00:22:17.470 Like, what do you think that means? Well, our 00:22:17.470 --> 00:22:21.029 sacred cows are our traditions that we put up 00:22:21.029 --> 00:22:23.250 there on the same frame as the Bible, right? 00:22:24.980 --> 00:22:27.700 I've been in a church where the constitution 00:22:27.700 --> 00:22:30.880 and bylaws of the church was more sacred than 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.539 the Bible. It was like, this is our guideline. 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:36.400 And so they made it a sacred cow. And we can 00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:38.559 make a lot of things a sacred cow. We can make 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:43.160 it our choice of song. We can make it... I'll 00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:46.079 just say it, a bulletin. We can make something, 00:22:46.380 --> 00:22:50.180 a sacred cow that is really, it's not founded 00:22:50.180 --> 00:22:52.539 in the Bible. It's just something that we have 00:22:52.539 --> 00:22:55.599 created and made it sacred. And his thing was, 00:22:55.660 --> 00:22:59.160 is listen, if it's not necessarily in the word 00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:02.319 of God, it's not something that we should sit 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:04.900 there and hold in such high regard and high standard. 00:23:05.059 --> 00:23:07.759 So he said, they make the best hamburger because 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:11.069 in truth, God would rather us grind up our sacred 00:23:11.069 --> 00:23:16.309 cows like Israel with the golden calves to get 00:23:16.309 --> 00:23:19.069 rid of those things because they are our idols. 00:23:19.450 --> 00:23:21.529 They're not what God has intended for us as a 00:23:21.529 --> 00:23:23.829 church. So following up on that, I mean, like... 00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:27.440 What I'm hearing here with the sacred cow concept 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:30.339 here is that the people have a deep heart connection 00:23:30.339 --> 00:23:34.000 to their stuff, their traditions, whatever, whatever, 00:23:34.119 --> 00:23:37.599 that runs deeper in that one area of their lives 00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:39.099 than their connection to the Lord. And maybe 00:23:39.099 --> 00:23:41.420 they conflate the two. My connection to this 00:23:41.420 --> 00:23:43.940 is my connection to Jesus. So y 'all have been 00:23:43.940 --> 00:23:45.559 pastoring for a lot longer than I have. So I'm 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:50.859 really curious, how do we handle the barbecuing 00:23:50.859 --> 00:23:56.019 of sacred cows? With grace. Kid gloves. Yeah, 00:23:56.059 --> 00:23:58.359 that's what it is. Yeah. How do we do that? Recognizing 00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:00.400 that people are like tied up in these things. 00:24:00.460 --> 00:24:02.940 These have meaning for people, even if they've 00:24:02.940 --> 00:24:05.720 outgrown their rightful place. And I mean, the 00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:10.500 words you just used. Grace is that. And I believe 00:24:10.500 --> 00:24:13.380 that comes in the form of one -on -one heartfelt 00:24:13.380 --> 00:24:16.359 conversations. That's where I think it begins 00:24:16.359 --> 00:24:18.079 is just sitting down and talking to someone. 00:24:18.099 --> 00:24:20.240 It's like, hey, man, so tell me. Because there's 00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:23.180 got to be a story. There has to be a story of 00:24:23.180 --> 00:24:27.220 why this became so big. Sometimes it has to do 00:24:27.220 --> 00:24:29.539 with what your grandma did. I mean, there's a 00:24:29.539 --> 00:24:33.920 lot of stories there. Without knowing a story, 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:37.400 it's so easy to attack something. But you sit 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:39.400 down and you sit down and talk with them and 00:24:39.400 --> 00:24:41.440 be like, hey, so tell me about this. Tell me 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:43.400 about why this thing is so important to you. 00:24:43.579 --> 00:24:45.960 Hey, let's have a conversation here. And then 00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:47.740 I think that always helps it out because then 00:24:47.740 --> 00:24:51.019 it also humanizes both sides. Yeah, because you're 00:24:51.019 --> 00:24:54.700 right. I mean, for them, it is. Usually it goes 00:24:54.700 --> 00:24:57.180 back to, like you said, grandma or even mama. 00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:00.160 And it's just like there's something that they 00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:03.140 hold on to. It could be just a memory. And it's 00:25:03.140 --> 00:25:05.299 like you're changing things, and this is the 00:25:05.299 --> 00:25:06.920 way my mama always did it. This is the way my 00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:09.119 grandma always did it. And when you begin to 00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:11.920 change things, it affects people because it affects 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:13.779 their memories. And they're like, you're saying 00:25:13.779 --> 00:25:16.440 that this is not good. No, it's not we're not 00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:20.470 saying that it's not good. It's just we. I guess 00:25:20.470 --> 00:25:22.069 the best way to say it is the way we used to 00:25:22.069 --> 00:25:24.990 say it. God's word doesn't change, but the methods 00:25:24.990 --> 00:25:29.210 do. And so we change methods, and some people 00:25:29.210 --> 00:25:31.990 get upset with changing of methods. But I think 00:25:31.990 --> 00:25:34.950 one great preacher asked, his church was dying. 00:25:35.170 --> 00:25:37.910 I mean, it was a church of 70 and older. And 00:25:37.910 --> 00:25:39.910 he asked his church, he said, listen, he said, 00:25:39.970 --> 00:25:42.529 we're not reaching any young people. We are not 00:25:42.529 --> 00:25:44.950 making a difference. What do we need to do? He 00:25:44.950 --> 00:25:47.869 said, what do we need to do to capture your grandchildren? 00:25:48.740 --> 00:25:52.720 And there was one 70 -year -old in the church 00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:55.779 that took that and ran with it. And they started 00:25:55.779 --> 00:25:58.220 a youth program and a kids program. that church 00:25:58.220 --> 00:26:00.880 didn't die like most churches do. It survived 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:03.859 and it is thriving even to this day. So I think 00:26:03.859 --> 00:26:07.119 it's that one guy mindset. Like if there's one 00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:09.819 person who's willing to lay down their preferences, 00:26:09.960 --> 00:26:12.660 be open and honest about what they're looking 00:26:12.660 --> 00:26:15.339 for, but also be open and honest about like, 00:26:15.500 --> 00:26:17.980 look, I'm going to set this down because I'm 00:26:17.980 --> 00:26:21.019 pursuing Jesus over my own comfort. I think that 00:26:21.019 --> 00:26:23.500 people rally behind those kind of people. Or 00:26:23.500 --> 00:26:25.319 they crucify them. I'll give you like an opposite 00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:28.609 side of that as well. I think sometimes sacred 00:26:28.609 --> 00:26:30.789 cows can be things that are still good, but they're 00:26:30.789 --> 00:26:34.490 keeping us from something great. So an example 00:26:34.490 --> 00:26:38.089 that is in a different context and culture than 00:26:38.089 --> 00:26:42.109 our church here, but in more of a suburban church 00:26:42.109 --> 00:26:45.230 is all over the place, big churches all over 00:26:45.230 --> 00:26:48.130 the place. I know of a church that they started 00:26:48.130 --> 00:26:50.769 to look at VBS. And they're saying, everybody's 00:26:50.769 --> 00:26:53.769 doing VBS. Everybody's doing it. Ours is fine. 00:26:54.700 --> 00:26:56.940 And we're seeing kids saved, and we're seeing 00:26:56.940 --> 00:26:58.819 all this stuff, and people are coming. But it 00:26:58.819 --> 00:27:01.880 felt like everybody was doing Lifeway or Groove 00:27:01.880 --> 00:27:04.500 or Answers in Genesis. And just people were just, 00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:06.779 it was the same thing all the time. And so in 00:27:06.779 --> 00:27:09.180 their context, they were like, hey, VBS is good. 00:27:09.500 --> 00:27:14.359 What can we do that's better? And this was an 00:27:14.359 --> 00:27:17.680 SBC church. They were willing to say, hey, how 00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:19.740 can we make this better? And they completely 00:27:19.740 --> 00:27:23.730 revamped it. didn't call it VBS, did a similar 00:27:23.730 --> 00:27:27.430 thing, but they were willing to make those difficult 00:27:27.430 --> 00:27:29.970 decisions, which I think showed a lot of maturity 00:27:29.970 --> 00:27:32.490 for the leaders of that church saying, hey, it's 00:27:32.490 --> 00:27:34.450 a good program. We like this. What can we do 00:27:34.450 --> 00:27:36.970 better? I was like, man, that was awesome. I 00:27:36.970 --> 00:27:40.730 wonder what that, so that setting aside the things 00:27:40.730 --> 00:27:43.390 that are good for the things that are best. So 00:27:43.390 --> 00:27:46.109 I wonder what that looks like in our personal 00:27:46.109 --> 00:27:49.289 lives, like as we pursue Jesus, because I feel 00:27:49.289 --> 00:27:52.410 like, Like, I think we can personally get in 00:27:52.410 --> 00:27:55.049 kind of in Scots in our own traditions as well. 00:27:55.670 --> 00:27:57.490 But like, what do you, what do y 'all think that 00:27:57.490 --> 00:27:59.349 looks like for us as we're just like walking, 00:27:59.369 --> 00:28:01.549 trying to pursue Jesus, like bump being a pastor, 00:28:01.650 --> 00:28:07.369 like, like just as a Christian. Hmm. Well, and 00:28:07.369 --> 00:28:08.950 this is something I kind of talk with my students 00:28:08.950 --> 00:28:12.950 a lot about is I believe that I tell them that 00:28:12.950 --> 00:28:15.349 it can be very easy to be aware of your sin. 00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:18.460 You know, there's a lot of shame that can be 00:28:18.460 --> 00:28:20.359 associated with your sin. There's a lot of guilt 00:28:20.359 --> 00:28:22.460 that can be associated with your sin. And so 00:28:22.460 --> 00:28:24.299 there's a lot of those things that my students 00:28:24.299 --> 00:28:26.700 are very aware of. Like, you know, they realize, 00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:30.400 okay, this is a problem. I need the Lord's help. 00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:33.180 But they might not be aware of something good 00:28:33.180 --> 00:28:35.140 in their life that's keeping them from Jesus. 00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:38.440 Wow. Right? And so that's one of the things that 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:40.460 I really try to talk to my students about. Hey, 00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:43.140 it's like, hey, your involvement with this, is 00:28:43.140 --> 00:28:46.480 it keeping you from growing in the Lord? Like 00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:48.519 it doesn't have to be something sinful. There 00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:52.880 could be something in your life that is, let's 00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:55.019 just call it out. Let's just call it out. Here 00:28:55.019 --> 00:29:00.410 in Stanley County, a sacred cow. of our culture 00:29:00.410 --> 00:29:03.410 is sports i mean i'm just gonna call it and now 00:29:03.410 --> 00:29:05.650 i see and i have to tell my students because 00:29:05.650 --> 00:29:07.849 there is a fine line here because we have some 00:29:07.849 --> 00:29:11.230 amazing coaches that go to our church and that 00:29:11.230 --> 00:29:14.450 i am very good friends with. And I believe that 00:29:14.450 --> 00:29:16.269 sports, we even talked about it earlier, from 00:29:16.269 --> 00:29:20.089 a broader standpoint, sports has its place in 00:29:20.089 --> 00:29:23.069 our culture. And it has its place in gospel ministry. 00:29:23.349 --> 00:29:26.670 Yes. I mean, it provides students with leadership 00:29:26.670 --> 00:29:29.970 ability, teamwork, and there's so many positive 00:29:29.970 --> 00:29:33.930 aspects. And you can bring Jesus into it. 100%. 00:29:33.930 --> 00:29:36.650 However, I also see the opposite side of that 00:29:36.650 --> 00:29:40.720 as well, where it becomes the... the over and 00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:45.759 over excuse of no longer participating. But now 00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:48.680 once again, so this is that opportunity to where 00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:51.440 as pastors, do we just blame sports for everything? 00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:54.880 Or do we go like the church that's VBS and say, 00:29:54.920 --> 00:29:56.940 let's think outside of the box and say, how can 00:29:56.940 --> 00:30:00.119 we still reach those people with the season that 00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:01.960 they're in? Because if we just go to them and 00:30:01.960 --> 00:30:04.480 say, You're terrible because your sports is more 00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:06.299 important. How's that going to work? It's not 00:30:06.299 --> 00:30:07.359 going to work. It's not going to work. We've 00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:08.880 got to think outside of the box and think, hey, 00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:10.519 how can we still minister to these families? 00:30:10.619 --> 00:30:12.880 And that is where my high school Bible study 00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:15.319 started from, as a way to think outside of the 00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:18.900 box and how we can still reach those kids. And 00:30:18.900 --> 00:30:21.559 it came from a teenager himself realizing, I 00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:25.960 love sports. I love Jesus. I'm not getting fed. 00:30:26.259 --> 00:30:28.660 Hey, Sean, what can we do? And for that to come 00:30:28.660 --> 00:30:33.519 from him, that's huge. That's so good. I'll tell 00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:35.599 you an example of what this has looked like in 00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:38.799 my own life about having to set aside that which 00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:41.619 is good for that which is best. I used to have 00:30:41.619 --> 00:30:45.079 a very, very rigid system for doing my quiet 00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:47.839 time. I would read a chapter. I would write down 00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:49.480 what I got from the chapter and I would move 00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:52.579 on. I inherited it from a youth pastor who poured 00:30:52.579 --> 00:30:54.859 into me when I was young. I was very new in my 00:30:54.859 --> 00:30:57.059 faith. And I think that was all I could handle 00:30:57.059 --> 00:31:01.119 at the time. But during my college years, the 00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:03.240 Lord really began to impress on me the importance 00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:06.579 of prayer. Not just asking for stuff that I want, 00:31:06.660 --> 00:31:09.200 but really more of an emotional connection of 00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:12.400 opening my heart to the Lord and letting him 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:14.279 change stuff and being willing to work through 00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:17.180 things in his presence. at his feet with that 00:31:17.180 --> 00:31:20.279 Bible open in front of me, I had this weird tendency 00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:24.099 to like, I would sit down and I would feel his 00:31:24.099 --> 00:31:27.799 call. I wouldn't, I would know like, Oh, you 00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:30.980 want me to pray? But for some reason I struggled 00:31:30.980 --> 00:31:33.539 to shake myself out of, no, no, no. But this, 00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:36.259 this is, this isn't, this is my, but I have a 00:31:36.259 --> 00:31:39.059 system. I have a system. I have a, I have a plan. 00:31:39.319 --> 00:31:43.880 I have, I have traditions. And he was kind enough 00:31:43.880 --> 00:31:48.059 to even pull back some of his felt presence from 00:31:48.059 --> 00:31:52.579 reading God's word that way to teach me, like, 00:31:52.619 --> 00:31:56.440 hey, Ben, like, seek my face, man. And you will 00:31:56.440 --> 00:31:58.960 find me in the scriptures. But if you're going 00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:01.079 to pursue words in a page more than you're going 00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:04.220 to pursue me, then you're missing the point. 00:32:04.859 --> 00:32:07.460 You have the appearance of godliness, but you're 00:32:07.460 --> 00:32:10.440 denying my power. So that's at least an example 00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:12.880 of what it's looked like in my life of having 00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:16.579 to give up something that is 100 % good, my process 00:32:16.579 --> 00:32:18.440 for reading the Bible, for something that is 00:32:18.440 --> 00:32:22.119 better, infinitely better, encountering God through 00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:24.579 his word, but through prayer first. That's awesome, 00:32:24.619 --> 00:32:26.440 man. And he's remixed it for me again, but this 00:32:26.440 --> 00:32:31.339 time I listened better than the first time. And 00:32:31.339 --> 00:32:33.859 I think it can happen in worship, too, if we're 00:32:33.859 --> 00:32:36.240 not careful. Because, I mean, I grew up in a 00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:38.359 traditional church where all we sang was the 00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:42.700 hymns, and we sang the same hymns. It was on 00:32:42.700 --> 00:32:45.539 a monthly or six -week rotation. Really? Yeah. 00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:49.039 I mean, it's like they didn't know a lot of hymns, 00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:51.220 and so they sang the same ones. You heard at 00:32:51.220 --> 00:32:54.240 least Amazing Grace every six weeks, and Victory 00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:58.339 in Jesus, and different ones like that. I don't 00:32:58.339 --> 00:33:00.920 know. I think our worship has to grow. People, 00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:04.960 they want to hold a hymn book, and then you've 00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:06.319 got those that hold the tradition and are wanting 00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:08.819 to sing it off the screen. And to be honest with 00:33:08.819 --> 00:33:11.220 you, we shouldn't focus on a paper or a screen. 00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:14.380 It's the person we're singing to. Amen. And we 00:33:14.380 --> 00:33:17.500 seem to forget that. We forget that because we 00:33:17.500 --> 00:33:19.339 want our preference of song. We want our preference 00:33:19.339 --> 00:33:22.000 of the way we sing it. We don't want you to jazz 00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:24.160 it up, or we want you to jazz it down, or we 00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:32.640 want you to play it straight. And it's not bad 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:35.480 that we have particular ways we want songs, but 00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:38.920 we've got to come to the realization in worship 00:33:38.920 --> 00:33:43.240 who we're singing to. God is not concerned if 00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:46.700 you add a drumbeat to a song or another instrument 00:33:46.700 --> 00:33:49.720 that we may have never heard before. Well, I'm 00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:51.180 going to break out the recorder next Sunday then. 00:33:51.180 --> 00:33:54.680 Can I bring my brains, please? I want to hear 00:33:54.680 --> 00:33:57.619 some different instruments. That'd be great. 00:33:57.799 --> 00:34:01.089 Have y 'all heard Celtic worship? Yes. Oh, dude, 00:34:01.190 --> 00:34:03.609 it's awesome. Ripping out bagpipes and in Christ 00:34:03.609 --> 00:34:05.410 alone, sent me straight to the seventh heaven. 00:34:05.470 --> 00:34:08.889 They are. They are on my Spotify. It's awesome. 00:34:08.989 --> 00:34:13.110 In Christ alone, my hope is found. Oh, it's so 00:34:13.110 --> 00:34:14.530 good. It's okay. Then if you're going to do that, 00:34:14.590 --> 00:34:16.150 you're going to bring in Gregorian chants to 00:34:16.150 --> 00:34:18.489 them. Don't tempt me with a good time. I would 00:34:18.489 --> 00:34:20.670 love to do that. Can we move on, please? Because 00:34:20.670 --> 00:34:22.130 y 'all are going to eventually bring up the banjo 00:34:22.130 --> 00:34:24.190 and I don't want to go. Don't don't don't dudes. 00:34:24.829 --> 00:34:27.530 Not the direction that I expected our conversation 00:34:27.530 --> 00:34:30.579 to go. No, But I love that. It's like we just 00:34:30.579 --> 00:34:33.420 ask questions of each other. That's church, right? 00:34:33.539 --> 00:34:35.619 That's huge. That's community. It's the Spirit 00:34:35.619 --> 00:34:39.800 working in and through us. I am for it. As a 00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:42.260 matter of fact, this is a lot like what pursuing 00:34:42.260 --> 00:34:44.500 Jesus looks like. I was going to say, in a lot 00:34:44.500 --> 00:34:46.239 of ways, we were sitting there talking about 00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:48.500 pursuing Jesus over and over and over again. 00:34:48.579 --> 00:34:51.139 So it was great. Exactly. Well, speaking of which, 00:34:51.219 --> 00:34:53.900 gentlemen, I have been Ben Smith. I have been 00:34:53.900 --> 00:34:57.219 Sean Griffin. And I am John Ferguson. And this 00:34:57.219 --> 00:34:59.130 has been Pursuing Jesus. Thank you guys for listening 00:34:59.130 --> 00:35:01.889 and we will catch you next week. Bye everybody. 00:35:05.710 --> 00:35:08.789 Pursuing Jesus is a ministry of Memorial Baptist 00:35:08.789 --> 00:35:11.510 Church in Norwood, North Carolina. To learn more 00:35:11.510 --> 00:35:14.949 about our church, please visit memorial4norwood 00:35:14.949 --> 00:35:27.210 .com. Nothing really matters. Anyone can see. 00:35:28.170 --> 00:35:31.590 It doesn't really matter to me.