Today on Blooming Curious, we have the very special Sally Haughey She's the
founder and CEO of fairy dust teaching now called Wunderled and a passionate
advocate for early years educators embracing a play-based philosophy with
a teaching journey that began in 1996.
Sally draws inspiration from many approaches like Waldorf
and Reggio Emilia In two.
In 2010, she established fairy dust teaching, and today it has grown into
a vibrant global community of over 240,000 educators across 120 countries.
Sally's strong dedication lies in empowering educators to unlock
the transformative power of play, nurturing children's imagination.
And curiosity.
Welcome to Blooming Curious Sally, it is wonderful to have you here today sharing
your amazing passion with all of us.
Ha, I am so excited.
So thank you for having me.
Oh, I'm so excited for having you.
Listen, I want you to share with everybody, we've just had a chat off
record, but I want you to share with them.
What inspired you to start fairy Dust teaching and how
did it evolve into Wunderled
Yeah, so I started fairy dust teaching really as a. Passionate stand for
children globally out of my own struggles when I was a child and then my son
had similar struggles and I knew that the, as Seth Godin calls, the factory
model of education wasn't working.
And in fact.
In terms of building of our own identities, it was damaging.
So, you know, I began to just do a little bit online and I was blown away.
I have to tell you, I, I started like six different blogs just trying to find my
way, and, uh, finally hit with Fairy dust teaching and I had been Waldorf trained,
so I was sharing Waldorf activities.
I kind of was still.
Not quite sure how to share my passion.
So it came through projects and things like that.
But what kind of took my breath away is the first time I made an offering
about how to be with children.
And because it was fairy dust, I called it, um, a dash of wonder
as I think is what I called it, is how many people signed up.
And from there it just became like.
It was like throwing seeds on the ground that began to blossom.
So it was just going along beautifully and I had had several
iterations of the websites.
Of fairy Dust I was in the process of, it was so funny,
like whatever mood hits, right?
Like I'm, oh, it's been so fairy like maybe I should go MoMA, you
know, contemporary artist look.
'cause I am an artist by, you know, went to college for art.
Um, and I was in the middle of that in Covid trying to redesign my website
and I had a dream And In the dream, someone hands me a magazine and it
says, wonder Led and it's the most beautiful magazine I get teary eyed.
It was like so vivid I could see it like it was an actual lived
experience in my dream and I woke up and I knew I had to create that.
It was.
And I think sometimes it's like Fairy Dust teaching.
I'm not really sure what will happen with that site.
I keep it there.
You know, it's like a child.
I don't wanna let go of it, but I'm so excited about Wunderled and, and.
The future it holds.
Yeah.
So you didn't just decide just to change the name like I have, you just
changed the name, kept the site, and let grow and evolve, but just changed
the name you decided to keep both.
Yeah.
It's a lot of work.
It is.
But you know, there's, it's, they're living, you know, this is the
part of being a conscious mm-hmm.
Entrepreneur is that there actually works of.
Art for me.
They're actually, yeah, an expression of my heart, and I can't kill that.
You know?
I can't take it away and say it wasn't there.
I need to, like, I know one day I'll wake up from another dream.
I know something, or someone will say something, you know, because again,
I'm a creative first and foremost.
I paint, I draw, I write.
And I know that work of art will have its purpose, but it's a living thing to me.
'cause it still serves people.
I.
Exactly, and it is beautiful and I'm, I dabble all around there very often
and it is just such a beautiful place.
So absolutely keep them both, Sally.
Just keep them both until why not You have another dream?
Another dream.
Exactly.
Tell me what's the core philosophy behind Wunderled and how it supports curiosity
driven and wonder based teaching?
'cause I know that that's your passion, but what's, what's that
core that that drives Wunderled
I would, you know, I, I love that question because I think this is
really important that for me, children are born with this innate desire.
And actually it's a drive to be curious and to wonder and to have awe.
It, it actually, in my opinion, drives development.
I think it's, it's been inside of us to have us.
It's, you know, like whatever it is that's driving the flower to bloom,
curiosity is driving the child to stand.
Driving the child to speak, driving the child to run, driving the child
to, you know, it's like, it's the drive that gives us everything.
It's what drives me.
Absolutely.
You know, it's the drive behind passion.
It's the drive behind innovation.
It's the drive behind anything we do as humans that takes it to the next level.
That's evolutionary.
You know, we need curiosity to meet the needs of our our planet.
So I think what I stand for is to stop killing it in young children, to stop
denying the drive and instead support it.
We have classrooms globally.
There are absolutely stifling the very thing children need most, and
I think it's because it's easier.
To control and dominate and tell children, you know, it's easier
for the machine to process them.
You know, it takes something to be a present, fully alive educator in
the classroom that's not checked out.
I've just suddenly had this wave of sadness wash over me
as you spoken those words.
How do you,
so how did you, I mean, you've obviously had these, your passion and your drive
like myself is for curiosity and both of us feel so strongly that that drive.
That's really been driven out.
Absolutely.
We are fighting to keep that drive alive because without
curiosity, we have nothing.
'cause curiosity is the foundation of learning, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Just yesterday, I was thinking to myself.
And we were talking about this earlier, children now have
this access to technology.
But the great minds today, the great creators, the great problem
solvers today did not have technology when they were growing up.
They were readers and um.
Creators and problem solvers and probably pushed boundaries and read ferociously
and worked with their hands and explored and tried out their little thoughts and
ideas, but they did not have technology.
They were driven by play an exploration in the real world.
And so I want to ask you is how did this play led learning
become your cornerstone approach?
Was it just this this desirable, this undying fire in you that
you wanted this for children?
What made you decide, this is it, this is what I'm going to follow?
I think, you know, I had a lot of different experiences as an educator.
Everything from private education to a government funded, you know,
establishment to public school.
And when I was in kindergarten, you know, they hired me in
as a kindergarten teacher.
I was hired to teach the children to read and all those academic things.
Right.
And I was curious, I had been.
Primarily play-based.
I had a curiosity.
What would it be like to be in a highly academic setting.
The team that I went on to with were very much academic, but
beautiful human beings, you know?
So I walked into a climate of love, which is really important.
Who, you know, when they saw me doing all of my things that were
different than what they were doing, they'd say, you're so cute, you know?
They were accepting and I, you know, forever grateful.
Um, but what I saw when I implemented some of the academic things was
the light go out in the children's eyes and I began to see, you know,
what is this at five years old?
There's this shutting down another child was this one little boy
still, just again, those lived moments that change you internally.
This little boy was in my first kindergarten class and he had been in
foster homes and had been through trauma.
And we were in, you know, it was my first year, so I was
taking them through a process.
They were wanting us to do handwriting.
So instead I was doing a guided drawing, you know, I just felt like handwriting
was too soon, too much, too quick.
What can I do?
I'd always look, what can I do that fulfills the requirement, but
isn't quite so inappropriate, you know, like always balancing that.
Even that, you know, 'cause I would say we're all, everyone's
drawing is gonna be different.
It's meant to be different and we don't wanna look like the others.
You know, like really trying to set them up and he broke down sobbing,
saying, I can't, I can't do this.
I was like, why does he have to do it?
What is it about being five that he cannot just follow his own curiosities,
his own interest at this point?
And I began to really work at bringing in open play because I think the
hard pill to swallow as an educator,
is that this is not just a child saying I can't do it.
This is the formation of his identity as a learner.
This is his self-concept.
This is who he sees in him himself as.
At this age, so tender.
Shouldn't he be in an environment where what he experiences is the
joy of learning, but instead the system even adapted and accommodated.
It's still being, you have to do what I'm doing.
You're saying such powerful things.
My goodness.
And so
I feel for schools and educators because there are people like you and
I who, who see things this way, right?
Mm-hmm.
And perhaps there, those of us that aren't scared to take on that challenge,
but we're still, and educators are still bound by curriculum demands.
Right.
Yeah.
They're still bound by curriculum demands and not everybody perhaps
has, or is fortunate enough, like us to just say, okay, we're starting our
own website and we're going to do our own thing for educators and children.
So how can educators then in the classroom that don't have the choice perhaps.
Hmm.
Of leaving, how are they gonna balance this play, lead teaching
with curriculum demands?
What do we say to them?
Well, when, yeah.
So I'm gonna say, which I never thought I'd say, but Covid changed my perspective.
Like Covid was like a tuning for, to me that went, boom.
You know what, what matters most is relationship.
So I think no matter what.
Play-based, traditional based, you know, Montessori, academic, Reggio,
whoever you are, the the tuning fork is saying you've got to be related
to the individual in front of you.
You have to be tuned in, you have to start there.
Because Without being in relationship with the child, how
can you possibly support them?
So I'm really almost relationship based first.
Play based second.
Yeah.
And I think the, the, what we're seeing in the classroom demands this.
I think we have to look at their needs.
If a child is breaking down, not self-regulating.
Then we have to take on being curious.
The educator's, the first curious one in the room, right?
Our curiosity allows us to, instead of react, reflect I. You know,
what can I do to help this child?
I mean, I know classrooms around the world right now are like teachers
who've been in the room for 30 years are saying it's never been like this.
Be like this.
Never.
Absolutely.
And so I think it's calling for us to recalibrate.
You know, I don't wanna, I don't wanna sit on my ideals in the
face of the call of the children.
I am here in service of the children, period,
and I'm just thinking now as well.
Of course you're absolutely 100% correct with this, but I'm also now thinking,
do you know what else is increased?
Instead of us becoming perhaps curious and asking those exact questions.
If a kid isn't doing what the rest are doing, it's now a
question of can you please make an appointment with a pediatrician?
Mm,
yep.
And I understand being in a classroom, that it is really, really difficult.
Now things have changed.
Things have changed and it's really difficult to be in a classroom of 30 kids
and having so many different needs and so much demand being placed on teachers
and having, you know, so many
different education plans even to meet the needs of different children and different
children's needs that I think for teachers now, they're really just trying to get
through the day right, in one piece.
Um, and so how do we really get to this place where we can encourage
teachers to trust themselves and trust children's natural curiosity.
And allow for unstructured exploration in a classroom, and as we are talking,
especially early childhood primary, that meets the needs of all children because
not everybody is ready at the same time.
Not every child in kindergarten or first grade or second grade is ready for the
demands that a curriculum expects at that
year level.
So how do we encourage them to teachers to say, follow the child when they are still
so much under the control of education departments, districts, um, in the
states, for example, the administrators.
It's a hard call to make, isn't it?
It is.
And I do think our own wellbeing is crucial and that
you have to find what's gonna work for you.
So when I taught first grade, I only did one year, my last year of teaching,
it was a very challenging year.
And I had, after lunch, I agreed, I got the principal to agree.
You know, 'cause you have to negotiate these things.
Absolutely.
You don't want administration walking in the room, you know, and go, wait a minute,
um, to agree to give me unstructured play.
And during that time I would have my one-on-one with children, you know?
So I gave a really, I think sometimes we have to pull out
really good arguments and.
That was a really good argument that she could completely have buy-in with.
The other thing that I found really important in my own wellbeing
is to keep a work home boundary.
Yes.
And when I didn't do that, I paid for it greatly.
I struggle with that.
I still struggle with that greatly.
Um.
I think we, every individual is different.
There's no recipe other than, you know, you have to have the oxygen
mask on first and that you are enough.
You know that you have to look in the mirror and go, you are enough.
You are the pilot of the plane.
You know, you need the oxygen mask, not because you're the hostess.
Because you are the pilot and that, you know, I, I literally, I, I think
this is something that we don't talk about enough, so I love that you
brought this up, is that we have to find our own way of finding the way.
So, you know, for me, I would get really creative.
I might draw, um, different ways that I could bring literacy into the classroom.
That allowed a more open-ended way.
One thing that I did discover in my time early on, like in 2005, I was a
bar part of a arts integration movement, and I was sent to Brown University
and took part in this great pd.
And what I brought was having discussions with children to make the decisions
with me about how we would move forward.
And I think if the children can feel that agency of their
voice, I would say sometimes in kindergarten, I go, okay, today.
The district and I explained what the district was and what all the
children in Oklahoma were doing.
Mm-hmm.
This is what we're having, what we're supposed to do today.
This is my idea, what's yours?
And by, by the end of the year, they literally were helping to design what
it is we were gonna do in the classroom.
They were driving it.
It is not just with play.
Play is also about creating play is also about inventing.
It's also about experimenting.
It's also, so it's this multifaceted amazing thing that we can bring
conscious participation in.
Does it make sense?
It's like, absolutely.
And so when we give those children that, I mean the voice,
and I'll tell you one thing.
I got a a note.
Probably two years ago on Facebook from a parent who I'd had in like 2007.
And she goes, our family, you know, of course the kids are grown, um, you
know, at the time, uh, senior year I think, or first year of college.
Mm-hmm.
And she said, we were in Dallas at a museum, and Sam,
our son, was looking at art.
The art museum and giving us this full expression of what
he saw and what he thought.
And he was extremely articulate in the classroom and in
that, what are we gonna do?
Um, and they looked at each other, the mother and father, and said,
oh yeah, he had Mrs. Haughey Oh.
Like the impact of that discussion and that co-creation.
You know, and he, he went on to Princeton and he is a football player.
You know, this football
creative.
And he's creative loving.
Football player.
That's okay.
But I think this is like, I get really upset because when we talk
play-based, so many people have the idea of these children running wild.
Yes.
You know, like that is, that's.
Children running wild.
That's not my idea of Play based.
Play based.
When I play, like anyone who thinks that's play hasn't been playing recently.
Yeah, that's running wild.
That's being a headless chook as they say here in Australia.
Sally, do you know what, while you were talking about children having agency.
Having that bit of choice.
Right.
And it immediately made me think of one of the problems we have, and I hear so many
educators talk about it, and I've been, you know, looking on, uh, Facebook groups
and in subreddit groups, teachers lament the fact that children are now disengaged.
So disengaged, right?
They're very engaged when you put them in front of a computer
screen, but they're very disengaged.
When they're sitting in a classroom listening to a teacher speak, and I do
wonder whether that has something to do with the fact that they have no agency.
Because if they could have a say in what they're doing, because you can still
stick to your curriculum, but you can give them a little bit of agency in terms
of how are you going to produce this, this project, or how are you going to
show me, you know, your understanding if you're An art lover, you might want
to create a painting and talk about it.
Or if you are a fabulous writer, you might want to write a story or
a drama or even just write a report.
But to give children some agency where they can express their own
understanding and learning, but also have a say in how they're going to
show their learning or even in terms of the topic that they want to explore.
And you can still be meeting your curriculum outcomes, but
giving children some agency.
And I really think that that solves the problem of this lack of attention,
this disengagement that so many people are talking about in our classrooms.
And I know that, the, our big inquiry proponents for inquiry, like
Trevor McKenzie for example, he talks very much about this designing the
learning together with children.
This.
This agentic learning.
So I think that this is a really powerful, a powerful strategy
for getting children engaged.
And yes, I think that many of us have to actually stop a moment and focus
on the relationships and just observe.
And I remember being at university and one of the lecturers saying, you know,
when you start out teaching in that first.
Your first year, that first term of every year.
Don't be so in a hurry to start teaching the curriculum.
Take some time to just observe, get to know the children, build your
relationships, and have a look at what it is that they love to do
and how they love to learning so you can tap into what they know.
But I think that once school starts, you're bang, you're into it, right?
That curriculum, you've gotta get this done and that done
and the next thing done.
But you can do all of those things, but just and breathe first.
Yeah.
And I think there's two chemicals we have to remember at play here,
but I think are really interesting.
One is.
I think the reason self-care is, is non-negotiable for any educator listening.
Absolutely.
Like if you have to walk out of the room and go home, at the end of the day you
don't have time, then walk out of the room and go home at the end of the day.
Because we know on a neuroscience level who you are as a, your state of being.
Sets the climate through mirror neurons of the classroom.
You're enthusiastic.
The children are enthusiastic.
Absolutely.
You're dragged out, the children are dragged out.
You're, you know, like our state, you know, just be like, um, again,
a pilot on a plane all grumpy and yelling is gonna get us all upset.
You know, I've been on planes where the pilot was like, just amazingly
present, talking, laughing, giggling with us as we got onto the plane.
Like it could have had horrid turbulence and I would've
been chill because of who was.
And in the front I knew I, I knew he was with me.
Yes.
And then the other brain science piece I wanna bring in is
engagement is a dopamine hit.
And so, you know, I think about myself.
Like there's things John's interested in, and there is no dopamine happening
in me when he's listening to a YouTube video or he is telling me about this
prehistoric whatever, and I'm just like, you know, tell me right before bed so I
can go to, sleep you know, and I think children experience the same thing.
What's so beautiful about choice and play is we're activating
engagement through dopamine.
And so the thing that happens that in play that, that I think is not really
fully understood in public domain is that when engagement has fully taken the
child, they're going return to what they did day after day after day after day.
And with that, the dopamine of reward is hitting.
So they're like, yes, they're focusing executive functioning.
You know, executive functioning does not develop without correct environment.
I think children are not engaged because they have not played,
because play develops the foundation of executive functioning.
Through the dopamine hit of engagement.
You know, like the child who wants to go to blocks every single day and do the
same, like they're planning, strategizing, expanding what they did, bringing other
kids in, you know, it's, it's huge.
And this is what's young children need to be prepared for academics.
Toss out the worksheets, bring out the dopamine, please.
So really education needs a whole new structure, right?
Education needs.
It does a revamp.
And so actually say, this is amazing because this goes to my next question I
wanted to ask you is how do you envision the future of education to better align
with the principles of curiosity and wonder, which of course includes play.
So if you were able to go to the White House.
Or be this worldwide influencer to make real change happen.
What would you do?
What would you say?
What would you, how do you think we should get change happening
for the benefit of our children?
Again, it goes back to, I would say we must.
From the, from infancy through age nine, the primary concern has to be serving the
foundational needs of the children, the need for certainty that they, they have
certainty about the care and wellbeing of.
Their own being in the classroom, that they know they have an educator that
cares who's gonna serve their needs.
Do you know a little girl who comes to the Hummingbird Cottage?
My little play space?
Oh, yes.
You must talk about, we must remember, yeah.
To talk about Hummingbird Cottage.
Very exciting.
She, she was in a public preschool and the Hummingbird Cottage is a play lab.
It's not a full educational setting.
She came in and was really depressed and her mother told me her teacher,
because she was moping, her teacher was withholding snack from her.
To me, this is grounds for being fired.
You do not play with food.
You know, it's like this, like that is messing with her sense of
certainty that her needs will be met.
You know, the need to the the need of significance to know that you
matter, that if you fall on the floor crying, that you're not viewed as
someone who's trying to manipulate the teacher, rather, you're viewed as.
You're doing the best you can to regulate, and right now
you're trying to see if I care.
You know, it's like, or you're crying.
I mean, you have to figure out what the message is.
Right.
That's
all Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right?
It is, and I think that until we put this in place, what we're
actually having in the us we had another school shooting today.
No, I haven't seen it.
Yes.
A female high school student, and again, it goes back to, I would
say, those, those students who have taken those horrific actions did not
get their needs met at home or at school, and they're taking it out.
And so I think that it's a crisis of humanity that until we say the identity.
and The joy of children matters first, and we know the thing that
we know is when we deal with those foundational needs, as Maslow said.
Then another way we put it is the, if you look at the three brains
survival, um, the mammalian brain and the neocortex, you know.
Survival.
You're born with it.
Baby screams for food, screams for diaper to be changed.
We're driven for survival.
The limbic system.
The second brain is where early childhood is at.
Children not regulated.
Guess what?
Normal, you know, that's our work.
Children fighting normal.
Our work is to teach conflict resolution.
I. Children not knowing what to do.
What we're doing is supporting them, helping them make choice
like that whole limbic system.
Children do not have access to the neocortex until they have regulation.
What person do you know who's dysregulated?
Who has access to thinking?
No, no one.
You know, it's, I, it just sparked a little memory in me.
I actually, I think I wrote a blog post about it a while back.
It was about looking at really violent perpetrators and there was a scientist
who and I can't remember the details, sorry, that's my, um, menopausal brain.
Um, but it's somewhere in a blog post and I'll find it and put a link so
that people can actually read it.
Oh, nice.
There was a researcher that went and researched, , these very
violent perpetrators, and he actually discovered that none of
them played in their childhood.
They
had Stuart, they were deprived of play.
Was it Stuart Brown?
Actually.
Thank you.
I think that that that reminds me yeah.
Stuart Brown.
Massively important.
Absolutely, yes.
They were deprived of play in childhood and therefore became violent perpetrators.
I mean, know that sounds common.
It one of the very simplistic, but it was a common thread
across all of them, wasn't it?
So what this study said that, um, as he interviewed and looked at, you know, what
was the common, like you said, thread is that they had come from a home of trauma.
Yeah.
And two, they had not played.
Yeah, those two things.
And I think that's just shocking.
You know?
It's like, but I think if you really get into the brain science of play, which
most teachers don't have time to do, which is why I love what I do, I get to break
things down for people, um, is that play is literally our innate drive to develop.
It's, you know, we, we can delight in infants and toddlers as the infant
goes to, to, is being driven by play, to crawl, to stand, to reach, to grab.
We're like, yay, we, we want them to come on.
But the minute children get articulate, they start speaking,
they start holding crayons.
We wanna take it and strip it of the innate drive and put in.
Um, our fabric, you know, our idea of what academic is.
So I think if we could see that it's not just the, the academic part
really is the least of my concerns,
because children will learn,
they will learn.
My son did not read until third grade.
He graduated in the top of his class.
There's signs that tell us if a child, it's normal to start reading
from anywhere of age three to age 12,
and I do not understand.
'cause really, if we want to give childhood back to children
to get them back to being happy.
Really and curious.
We need to delay formal learning.
Yes.
I was lucky enough when I was growing up in South Africa, my very
first year of formal education.
Then it was called grade one, which is now kindergarten, was
the year that I turned seven.
I was six going to school.
My birthday's in August.
I turned seven in that first year.
I was ready and I did not come from a family where my parents pushed me to
read and write and do all these things.
We just played.
We literally, I played, I drew, I loved drawing.
There were books in the house.
I loved reading about animals and nature, but we just went fishing and played.
We didn't, there was none of this.
Oh my gosh.
You know, I've gotta get you ready for school.
You go, please.
I still remember.
I was, I went to a, convent then, uh, the nuns were our teachers, right?
And they used to give us these little cards home for homework.
Didn't have lines on.
We weren't expected to write our little letters in dotted thirds
it was a blank card on how we then practiced shaping letters.
I was seven, and am I behind?
I mean, literally, you know, and I do remember, , reading came easy to me.
Writing came easy to me.
I was ready.
I mean, and I remember them going to my mom saying, we need to accelerate.
And my mom said, no.
I don't know what would've happened if they did, or, or what, but I wasn't
accelerated and life was fine, you know?
But.
I started at seven.
It's the same thing with now technology.
We're saying, well, oh, well if we don't give kids these one-on-one iPads,
if we don't get them learning about technology really, really early and
get them, they're gonna miss the boat.
Because, you know, our whole world is technology.
Have you seen a young child how quickly they learn?
They don't even need.
Instructions.
They take that iPad and within a half an hour they have figured
out exactly how to use it.
You do not need to tell them.
So to take that and to delay that I don't believe is going to do any harm at all.
In fact, I think it's the opposite.
I think it'll do the more good.
Then harm.
So this whole thing, agree about we've gotta start them early.
I don't think it's for anyone's benefit, except governments who want to, this
is now gonna cause a hoo-ha, except governments who want to get parents
working so that they can pay tax.
That's what I think because the more kids we can get into schools, learning
away from homes means that parents can go off and do jobs so that they can earn.
And pay tax.
That's what I think it's all about and that's why in the US institutions to have
these children and so we better, we may as well then do something with them, right?
Like teach them how to read and write instead of allowing them fine.
I. Just play, create environments where kids can play.
So that's just my soapbox for the day, Sally, sorry.
Well, I would say in the US, even when I was a young mother in the
eighties, that it was the sooner a child did a milestone, the better.
So there is this whole thing, sooner is better.
There were literally in the eighties, it'd be like, is your child, uh.
walking Yet mine were late walkers.
No, I would feel shame, like I'd done something wrong then.
Is your My child's reading.
My child started reading and at three years old, is your child reading,
you know, like just this pressure on parents and in the US definitely
there's pressure on parents to have their children achieving the milestones
and that the schools that deliver.
Are packed.
So in, in my opinion, in the US, what we need is to turn the tide with parents
that parents need to understand and education feels like a consumer product.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And the consumer is the parent.
Mm-hmm.
The, the family unit who wants their child to succeed and they feel like
they're gonna be letting them down.
Like, you know, um, in the nineties, in my first, you know, 4-year-old
class, I had a parent ask me, what reading program are you going to use?
Where are the worksheets?
You know, I was like.
You know, I was in the middle of my Waldorf training and I was like, what?
What are you talking about?
You know, it's like, it's so, you know, it's like a fungus growing
on the system, in my opinion here.
So it's interesting in the cultural sense, what's keeping this going?
What's driving what children don't need?
Not serving us even as a culture.
It's a really complicated subject, isn't it?
It's because as educators who've gone through university and done all the
psychology units on how children learn, we know what's best for children.
We know.
We know what's best for children, right?
But yet we then get into these situations and in these institutions, in schools.
And then we forget because actually what's happening is that parents have more and
more influence and parents are making, they drive it off here are making demands.
Right?
And so I guess then schools are just delivering on that demand.
Instead of saying, hang on a minute, your child is actually going to meet
all these milestones and they're going to excel if we do it this way.
And, but I also do see Sally.
There is a slow movement, there's a change happening.
Um mm-hmm.
More so with things like homeschooling home education, and there's this
massive movement, um, happening here in Australia, more so in the States,
of course, a little bit in the uk.
But In speaking to some friends in, in Europe, homeschooling is
not a big thing in Europe at all.
In fact, it does not exist in some of those countries at all.
But certainly the states here in Australia, it's a movement
that is gaining momentum.
Part of it is.
And this is the sometimes the part, and I understand it completely, but then
on the other side of the scale, I'm seeing kids that are just, as we said
before, are just left to free range.
And I'm thinking, uh, hang on a minute.
Because that in itself is also not.
You know, you have to have that free range.
You have to have that free play that has to be there where children
can explore and push their own boundaries and learn innately, right?
Yeah.
But at the same time, if you're going to be pulling children out
of schools, you also need to.
Turn that play into playful learning.
And so that takes a skill.
And so I do, it does, I do wonder a little bit about that as well, but Yep.
I think there is a, an awakening by certain parents
as well in terms of children,
and it used to be that free range.
Was, you know, when I was a little girl, I had free range at home.
Yeah.
I had free range until seven
and it's been taken.
Now we don't let our children free range, so I think unfortunately
they're not getting it.
You know, ideally when they were home, they'd have that freedom to,
you know, be fully engaged and, and playing with neighbors and all of that.
But we are in a different world.
Unfortunately,
yes.
And I've had children, wouldn't I say to them, oh well.
No, well, you're just gotta go home and play.
And they go, oh, I don't have time to play.
I said, what?
What do you mean you don't have time to play?
Oh, well I've got swimming lessons, I've got ballet, I've got music, da da.
So a lot of children, as you said, you know, once they go home from school,
which ideally would then be a time.
A downtime, right.
To play and explore.
Run around with your friends, go to the park.
A lot of these kids don't get that even because they now have
extracurricular activities.
Right.
So there's a lot to think of and it's a lot to consider in society today.
Um, and it does need a whole rethink and putting children first.
'cause that's really what it's about.
It's not about us, it's about them.
It is, and I think Sir Ken Robinson said it really beautifully when I read this.
I, got great comfort from it.
You know, I would remind myself, he said, we don't have to transform the whole
educational system to make a difference.
He goes, you are transforming this system when you close your door.
Oh, and face those children.
That is transformation of the system.
Just your piece.
I love that.
It's very comforting.
'cause it can get overwhelming.
The bigger picture.
Yes.
But if just with those children in, in your care as their educator that
you bring, you know, I even advocate if you just brought one hour of play,
a day of free play a day, you are doing something massive, massive.
I am gonna champion you because you are doing something that, you know, millions
of children are not getting in the classroom at 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 years old.
And
children that eight, nine need it too.
Yes.
And as you said earlier as well, if you are that teacher who is really.
Committed to children and their needs.
And as you said earlier, if you just go to your administration and
say, look, this is what I'm doing.
This is what the research says, this is what I know.
Let, and this is what we know is best practice for children, and I'm going
to be there and I will facilitate and observe because so many times now I know
here in Australia, they're very strict.
In terms of contact hours.
So you could easily, you know, that is contact hours.
I'm going to allow them to play, but I will observe and do my
observations and facilitate and have my provocations and my invitations out
and see how children learn with that.
So there are ways around the system, you know, you just have to be, first of all,
you really just want, must want want.
it badly enough.
That's it.
And then secondly, you really just, if you really wanted badly enough and you believe
in it enough, you'll make it happen.
You can make those small changes.
I really believe that.
You just have to, I never
push that.
I never had an administrator turn me down.
Yeah, not one because I gave the evidence.
Exactly.
And I think that's the key point that you mentioned is that do your research.
I had a supervisor in a three-year-old classroom come by and say, you,
we have to label everything.
It's a mandate, everyth, single thing in the classroom.
We're talking like 300 little labels up on doorknob door,
you know, cubby window, window.
And I pull, I had what I called the red notebook and I pulled it
out, opened it up, and I said, and here is evidence and research done.
That visual noise can increase behaviors and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I said, it needs to be meaning, here's another one.
It needs to be meaningful.
So I'll label what's meaningful, but I'm not gonna label the room.
And she says, check, you're fine.
She, knew.
Okay.
She understands.
What's it, what's it's about.
She's gonna manage it.
I'm okay.
I, I love that Sally having a red folder with all the research in.
Oh, I always at my fingertips and here it's, it's like one.
The other thing that I would say I think is really important, I meet the
teacher, not meet the teacher at back to school night with the parents.
I always educated them on the brain research and I would warn
them, and I never had a complaint.
In 20 plus years.
Nobody complained about me, so, you know.
Where there's a will there's a way.
Absolutely.
But I believe that
where there's a will there's a way you just want to, you, you have to
want it, and then you will want it.
You have to want it.
Yep.
Sally, you've mentioned a lot of examples already in your career that you've
seen the transformative power of play.
Do you have any upcoming projects, at Wunderled that you are particularly
excited to share with us today?
You know, it's interesting.
I'm sitting in Santa Fe, New Mexico in a Airbnb that looks out and I can
see hundreds of miles and mountains and landscape, and I'm planning.
The next iteration of what I'm up to in Wunderled And one thing that's
there is definitely I am concerned with children's emotional wellbeing in the
classroom and because of the heightened dysregulation and I'm just going say
I have been there, it's overwhelming.
As an educator, it can feel like you're going underwater and you can't breathe.
I had a classroom one time that literally every night I would go
home and cry for an hour, and then at that time I would look for a new job.
Because I'm like, do I really have to go back?
Don't make me go back.
You know, it's like this is, you know, I'm, I'm trying to regulate myself
and I have six children who are, you know, I, I, I'm not an octopus and
I didn't have the help, you know, it was just me and 28 children.
And so I think we have to start looking at the reality and
giving teachers real knowledge.
Of the limbic system in early childhood and how do we address that in the
classroom so that we can actually have children follow their own interest.
Otherwise, we're just putting out fires.
We're, we're surviving the day and it's not necessary we, you don't
have to survive the day, but it takes the knowledge of how do you
reach children who seem unreachable?
There's so many of them now in our classrooms.
Teachers are really juggling that.
It's just, it's quite frightening and yeah, you're right.
I remember days sitting in my car in the parking lot doing deep
breathing and thinking, okay, what is today going to bring?
You know, it is very, very real.
And I think if
we could make, I, if I could say anything to the president back to that,
I would say we need smaller classrooms so teachers can actually address
the real needs in the room so that children can actually grow and learn.
But I do think we're in crisis and um, I literally follow the educator's lead.
With my business, you know, it's not, it's not about what I wanna do, it's about what
their need is and how can I fulfill that.
And so, you know, I'll always have offerings on play-based education,
but I want to have the educator out there who doesn't know if
they can survive another year.
I wanna give them the toolkit that they're like, oh, this is where I belong.
Amazing.
This is, and that's exactly what they need, Sally.
So on everybody's behalf, I say thank you for that, and also thank you for
all the amazing work that you do with Wunderled on your website and just
everywhere where I see you, your summits that you have every year, which is
where I initially found you, . So I'll definitely put all your links to your
website, which has got loads of courses on there that educators can do so that
we all know exactly where to find you.
And I really urge everybody listening to go and check out, follow
those links, and go and check out Sally's website and her offerings
because they're there to help you.
And they're amazing.
'cause ultimately all the help that we get directly impacts
the children that we teach.
And ultimately, that's what it's all about.
So Sally, I'd like to thank you so, so very much for being here, taking
this time while you're in Santa Fe, working on your latest, offering.
And thank you for taking the time out to come and chat to us and share
your passion and your wisdom with Blooming Curious and myself today.
So thanks very much.
Well, thank you.
It Has been a delight.
So that was the incredible Sally Haughey from Wundeled, and I really hope that
today's episode sparked your curiosity and your awe and your wonder, and that you're
gonna go out and find something in today's episode that you can think about and
implement in your teaching from tomorrow.
If I could ask one small, tiny little favor, it would be please click that share
button and send this episode to a friend, to a colleague, to a parent, anyone with
children or who works with children.
'cause that's the only way we can get this message out to more people so
that more children can ultimately.
Benefit.
And so thanks very much again for listening, for taking the time
to be here right until the end.
And until next time, stay blooming curious.
I'll see you around.