Today on Blooming curious.
We welcome not one, but two special guests.
Ben Shoul and David Berlinski are the founders of Toolbox Education.
Toolbox brings evidence-based programs to schools, equipping children and
teens with practical tools they need to improve their mental health.
Today we're gonna talk about how we can improve children's mental wellbeing,
create optimal conditions for learning in the classroom and at home for students
in the context of their mental health and how we can help our children and
students manage anxious thoughts, prevent meltdowns, and deal with conflict.
So welcome to Blooming Curious, Ben and David, it's great to have you here today.
Thank you for having us.
Thanks so much.
So can you share the story behind Toolbox Education and what inspired
you to focus on mental health and wellbeing for children and educators?
So around about three and a half, four years ago, we were , in the, in the midst
of lockdown here in Melbourne and, uh, the craziness of the COVID-19 pandemic.
And we were just seeing across the country rising rates of, um, you know,
poor mental health amongst young people.
They were trapped in their bedrooms, sitting on social media or on
their laptops in their bedrooms.
And at that time, David, who's a clinical psychologist, had
really long wait times to see him.
And, uh, when we put our heads together and um, thought about this problem, it
didn't really make sense to us that all these people, especially young people,
had to wait to go see a psychologist to learn all these incredible tools to
deal with anxiety or their emotions or anything to do with their mental health.
It just didn't make sense to us that, that wait time was happening.
We thought, what if we could take all those amazing tools that a young person
would learn with a psychologist and teach them to the kids before they need it
in ways that Gen Z can really relate to.
We're gonna put the, the young people of Australia in a far better
position, um, with their mental health.
And so that's how it started.
And, um, we, we realized that if we were gonna share these tools with young
people, that they had to be really fun and relatable and done through
workshops, not lectures or seminars.
And, uh, we certainly in the early days were, um.
How would you say it?
Just
probably to the very theory heavy.
I came in with a, you know, very excited to share my psych knowledge, but we
very quickly learned in the classroom, students, students value the learning,
but it needs to be taught, um, in a fun and engaging, relatable way.
And that that way they'll pay attention.
That way they'll get involved and see the benefit and value of the
tools, uh, that we're teaching them.
Awesome, , what I've discovered in my years of teaching is they don't actually
enjoy sitting still in a, in at a desk and listen to you lecturing them.
They like to get involved and active in their learning.
That's been my experience and one of the reasons why I changed the way
I teach is because children enjoy being active in their learning and
learning in hands on ways, , tell me what do you, did you find were the most
common mental health challenges that affect students today in classrooms?
Absolutely.
So there are a few ones that come to mind for me.
Number one, it's got to be anxiety and anxious thoughts.
We are seeing such a rise in students and kids feeling anxious uh, in
the classroom amongst their peers at home, how they're performing,
what are people thinking of them?
Are they good enough?
Um, predicting the future, thinking that everything's gonna go terribly
so they don't end up having a go or trying, that fear of failure.
All of that kind of falls really neatly into that, that umbrella of anxiety.
Where do you think that comes from, David?
Where does this anxiety stem from?
Great question.
I mean, it comes from many places, but a way to think of it is that it is like
developmentally appropriate in the sense, and if we think of anxiety as, um, another
way to think of it is almost like the fancy word for it is projections, right?
Like kind of projecting in my mind, the world, what are the people thinking of me?
And if, if you're a kid developmentally, it's really important to fit in.
That is how teenagers, especially as they're entering adolescents,
how to make sense of the world.
How are my friends viewing me?
How do I fit in in, in my school?
All of those things.
And it's just kind of taking that and really magnifying it.
You've got social media obviously being a huge amplifier of this, but that you're
really seeing that in the classroom.
Just that anxiety, how people perceive me, what are people thinking of me?
And that just plays on and on in our minds.
Um.
Anxiety about things that have happened in the past and also
almost predictive anxiety too.
Will I stuff up?
How will I go in this test?
Should I apply for that job?
Whatever it might be.
And that's just running round further.
And that's quite interesting 'cause last week I took a group of children
outside 'cause I'm a very big proponent of getting outside for learning
outdoors and I took them outdoors.
And they were doing sort of nature art transient art just with found objects.
And I actually interviewed them.
I asked them how they felt, and these were kids in year three.
And the comments I got were, we feel so much happier outside.
And one of the children said.
I feel more relaxed.
I said, well, why?
Why do you feel more relaxed?
And she said, no.
In the classroom you are always worried.
You are always worried about your work and you're always worried about your grades.
And you're always worried about, you know, if you're doing the right thing.
And that was actually quite profound 'cause I thought, these
are year threes and they are already
having anxious thoughts about performance.
And that to me was quite concerning that a year three student should be
worrying about grades and performance.
Uh, you know, when they really should just be focusing on just
learning, but having fun with it.
They shouldn't be having to worry in year three.
Absolutely.
Edwina, just just add to that, I mean, you kind of described it so nicely
here, like I think when kids are active in their learning or being present and
just like you said, being in nature.
They're just embodied right in their body.
They're doing things, they're active.
They don't have time to ruminate and worry about things.
They're just doing it and they're learning.
They're making mistakes as they go.
But that's kind of part of the process.
I think it's often when all of us, but probably especially kids, when we're
sitting still, when we're not, when we're, yeah, not actually just having a
go and trying, that's when the anxiety starts , to really grow and fester
as opposed to like, just, just do it.
Have a go.
Learn, make a mistake.
And I'm sure we will talk about strategies in a little while, but I
do also know that this is one of the things that many children, especially
high flyers, like the kids that are really, really want to do well, they
are so terrified of making mistakes.
And very often as teachers, we have to put processes in place where
we're telling them that mistakes are good.
You know, the people who've, you know, invented things, scientists,
they didn't do it first time.
You have to make mistakes and then go into the whole thing about your brain grows.
Every time you make a mistake, you're learning from it.
And that actually makes you smarter.
So ask questions and make mistakes.
You have to sort of make it as if it's a good thing.
Celebrate mistakes, because a lot of them are too scared to even have a go.
And that's another thing I think as a teacher you really have to focus
very much on getting that mindset right for kids that, not yet, I
dunno it yet, but I will get there.
So they're stunted in their growth because they're afraid.
Right.
And goodness knows where that comes from, um, but wonderful
that you guys are actually doing something to help those kids.
I'm wondering about communication.
What role does that play in in helping children to also diffuse conflicts?
Because yes, they're anxious, but another thing that makes them
very anxious are relationships.
And that's another thing that I, I've seen very often.
In fact, I said to the kids, I know why you wanna come to school?
And they went, why?
And I said, it's not because of learning, is it?
They all smiled.
Oh my gosh, you'd think I was like some kind of prophet.
And I said, I bet you the reason you come to school is for,
and they all said it, friends.
They're only there for friends.
They're not actually at school to learn.
Children come to school to socialize, and that is the bottom line.
And so friendships play a really big role, and in that is conflict because
they struggle with making friends.
How can teachers and, and I guess even parents, because you have sibling rivalry
and you have conflicts in your own home and issues, when the kids come home,
could they come and tell you about the, you know, the person on the playground
who doesn't wanna play with them?
What role does communication with your children play in
that, and how can we help them?
A huge amount.
It, it, it, it plays a massive role.
And I think the first part of your question actually links back to
what we were just talking about in terms of failure and, um, you know,
being terrified of making mistakes.
Like you said, often school refusal and not wanting to show up to
school is linked to that, those friendship dramas and those conflicts.
Mm-hmm.
What we're seeing more and more in the classrooms and what students tell
us and teachers tell us, is that that emotional muscle, that that should be
developed in teenage years or pre-teen years around conflict and relationships
and communication just isn't being developed in the same way anymore
because students aren't communicating with their peers and their friends like
they would've 10, 20, 50 years ago.
You'll hardly see a, a young person pick up the phone and call someone anymore.
In fact, we often, it comes up in our workshops where students
cringe at the idea of having to call someone and rehearse the lines
in their head before doing so.
Or even having a chat with someone on the phone like would be normal
for, you know, older age groups.
So that communication skill or that muscle of even having a face-to-face conversation
with someone is now replaced by typing.
Or sending emojis or whatever it is online, so they're not training that.
And therefore, when conflict does arise in a face-to-face setting, they're far
less equipped with the tools to be able to say what they feel, what they think,
and how they believe the conflict should be resolved and what it meant to them.
And Edwina I'll just add, add to the, nerd out and the psych stuff and,
and the developmental stuff again.
If we think about it again, developmentally, kids all, it's all
about just fitting in and survival.
And the biggest thing again, you see that friendships are the
most important relationship in kids' lives at that stage, right?
When we get a bit older, it becomes your partner or your parent, your family.
But when you're at that stage, no one else matters.
It's just friendships.
So that like there's a real crisis there.
Attention of, oh my goodness, the people who mean the most to me
and the I really need to fit in.
But there's conflict.
I have feelings towards 'em that are really uncomfortable.
Maybe I'm feeling hurt or angry with them, and it's really hard
for kids to kind of reconcile this.
I mean, very hard for adults as well.
So what do kids do?
I mean, kids go down a few pathways.
One, they ignore it.
It's just very easy to avoid the conflict
I problem, they go, well, no, I'm not, I, I can't be angry at them.
They're my friend.
Even maybe they were hurt or they were excluded, so.
That's option one.
Just pretend like there's no conflict and then we don't have
to feel anxious about about this.
Option number two, which some people do is, sorry, and option number one, we call
that being passive in our relationships.
Passive communication, just not addressing your needs, ignoring them.
Option number two is on the flip side, which we call being aggressive, where
we just steamroll the other person.
We go, how dare you hurt me?
What's wrong with you?
I can't believe you did this.
Why did you do this to me?
And naturally you can see there's gonna be issues , in your friendships,
down the line that you're only considering your wants and needs.
You're not really thinking about your friends.
And what we try and teach in our workshops and also I, I do the therapy room.
How do we find that sweet spot of, of assertive communication?
How do we go, no, my feelings and needs matter, but so do my friends
and they're on the equal level playing field, and how do we address
it and communicate in a way where.
It's on me to communicate it 'cause my feelings are hurt.
How do I do it in a way that's not gonna shut down my friend?
That my friend can actually be on board with this.
They can hopefully hear me or respond to me.
And then once we're feeling heard and, and seen anxiety drops,
we feel a bit more calmer that those emotions pass through us.
Um, and hopefully the conflicts resolve then.
And we say in our workshops too, like you, you need conflict in relationships.
It's important.
Like it, it's a healthy, important part of a relationship because it's inevitable.
You're two people, two friends, whatever it is, who, who get along most of the
time, but inevitably will, will clash.
And really it's not about having no conflict.
It's how do we actually resolve this, um, in a way that we're
feeling, um, heard and understood.
Um, that's gonna really set all of us up for success.
I think it's a, as a early childhood and elementary teacher, the things
that I see most, often children being passive, it's the opposite.
It's very much children, expressing how they feel.
Actually.
They tell them exactly.
How they feel and yeah, sometimes it's not very kind.
But I think at the other end, and I sometimes think, my goodness, I
would never, when I was that age, I would be the passive person.
I would've just kept quiet, walked away.
But these kids today, I'm finding a lot of them are very vocal, but
they just say the wrong thing.
It's very almost, it's about me.
And there's a lot of blame always.
I find this very, like, you did this, you did that, your fault language.
And so what I have found in especially the last two years where I've been teaching
specifically health, is that as teachers, we have to give them the language to use.
And I don't know if you found that or is that what you do in your
workshop, but I found that they need the language we have to be modeling.
These are the words you use and actually get them to practice that
communication, that process, is that something that you guys have felt
or found, or is that what you do?
Or, or, or have we been doing it all wrong?
Some of us?
No.
Definitely.
That's a huge part of our, our workshops.
I mean, especially even as soon as, as soon as someone hears the phrase
you, I'm, I'm already on the defense.
I'm already Exactly.
Yeah.
It feels directive.
It feels like it's an attack on my character and who I am and, and
what we try and separate is there's a big difference between my friend
and my friend's behavior, right?
If I can focus on what my friend has done to me, they're gonna be a bit more online,
they're gonna be a bit more receptive.
We're gonna be able to figure and navigate this conflict.
If I start saying you first it game over, it's too late.
So we really encourage, um, students to share, to use that.
It's, it's really foundational, but that I feel language.
Because that's how we're feeling.
And then it's really specific when we did this.
Mm-hmm.
And asking for, and, and the third part is ties into, what's
the, what's that famous book?
Assertive Communication or how to communicate Effectively or Effective
communication, whatever his name is.
Um, and then also asking for repair.
So next time, and, and that's the whole point of it.
And this is the missing piece, like, like you're saying, kids are very
good now at saying you did this and then just leaving it at that.
The whole point of why we communicate in our relationships
is to make it better next time.
If we're just say, you did this, you did this, and then leaving
it, we just get points and feeling upset when someone's hurt us.
You've got to have that second part, which is.
Okay, this is how I'm feeling when you did this, but I'm wondering next
time, can we please work on this?
And kids are really good at understanding how it's gonna affect them.
But you know, in earlier years, less.
Less, um, proficient with empathy skills and understanding
how the other person feels.
So, framing it in a way that, you know, we'll often start with, you
know, who here wants to improve their relationships for themselves?
That's when they start to buy in and go, ah, if I use this tool in this way where
if I use these words, my relationship's going to be better, not necessarily
because I'm altruistically wanting the other person to feel better about
it, but I can benefit from this too.
And, and I think a big piece of it too is we need to be able
to communicate effectively and assertively, but underneath that we
have to be regulated emotionally.
Like so many of us, you know, when we're upset we, we get a zero to 100.
I mean, we use the metaphor of a Coke bottle.
Our Coke bottle's exploded.
And we're not actually, our thinking brain isn't online for us
to actually use the right words.
'cause we're upset, we're feeling hurt, we're feeling attacked.
So
we're also in teaching healthy emotional regulations that we can stay cool, calm,
collected, and find the right words, um, as well to, to to navigate a conflict.
Which is also where educators play a massive role.
Um, you know, through your podcast and your audience, the teachers have such
an important role to play in this.
That emotion regulation is that first step kids come back from the playground from
lunchtime, you know, heavily dysregulated from a huge argument or a disagreement
or first lesson of the day, bringing whatever's happened at home into the
classroom rather than leaving this to the wellbeing staff or the school psychologist
or the counselors, every teacher or educator can play a role in that, in being
able to help them regulate those emotions to enter into conflict in a healthier way.
And the reason why, as I'm thinking, the reason why is in our workshop we
go and we ask the students, take a step forward if you've ever said something
to a friend in the heat of the moment that you later regret and they all
step forward and we've all done that.
And then not only have they but their friend once they're, you know,
they're a bit more regulated, but then they also took quite guilty
and sad and bad and self-critical.
So.
This is what we do.
If we can be proactive and prevent those outbursts and an ability and
encourage students to communicate in that healthy, effective way, there'll still
be conflict, but we can view conflict as actually what they are, which is
opportunities to get closer and connect.
Like flipping it, viewing another way.
Thank you for having conflict.
Wow.
Thank goodness that you're actually communicating, that
you're upset with something that I'm doing that I didn't know.
Like what a privilege that you're actually able to express this
and I can hopefully receive this.
And then we can actually use this conflict as a way to get
closer in our relationships.
Yeah.
I really appreciate you guys saying that actually, because one of the
tools that I've used always is teaching, giving kids those words.
I feel, instead of saying, you, you, you, you, you is, I feel when
you da da, da, I would like you to.
So I guess that comes in with the next time.
So in future I'll use the next time.
I think, and I'd really appreciate also you talking now about dysregulation.
'cause I think we see a lot and also deal a lot with children that are
dysregulated for variety of reasons.
So can you please help us teachers and parents out there?
What can you tell us about dysregulation?
Because I also think that when kids come in dysregulated, we as parents often
and educators don't even have the tools
to deal with our own dysregulation, so we could often be triggered by
something that happens or that a child does, because we've never
learned to regulate our own emotions, especially of sort of my generation.
I think we weren't taught how to talk about our feelings
and regulate our feelings.
Right.
It was really
children should be seen and not heard.
That's my generation or my experience anyway.
So I think that a lot of adults struggle with dysregulation too, and when you're
an educator, you're dealing with a whole variety of children that come from all
sorts of backgrounds with, they come to school with all sorts of issues,
and those issues play out every single day in classrooms and on playgrounds,
and when they come in dysregulated, very often we spend probably a half a
lesson just trying to get everybody on board so that we can now start teaching.
So please help.
How do we deal with dysregulation?
I mean, it's, it's a massive, it's a massive topic and a massive question.
It, it's huge.
It's everywhere like you said, it affects relationships, but also it, a big part
of it is it affects us from learning.
Um, and you're spot on.
The, the best thing we can do as educators and parents is to really
work on regulating ourselves because.
Children are sponges.
They absorb everything we do, not just our, I don't know, our preferences for
food and the fashion we wear and the TV shows we like and our personality, but
also how we regulate, um, our feelings.
So first and foremost, it's that modeling and, and just some really
important foundational tools that I'm using for myself, but
also in, in, with my clients, is
there's a few parts of it is one is just cognitively labeling.
Like what are, what am I actually feeling right now?
Like being able to intellectualize and rationalize about the emotional
experience that's showing up right now is a form of regulation.
Just being able to clock, clock that, that emotion and go, oh, I'm actually
quite angry, or I'm quite tired, or upset or sad, or guilty is enough to
be in touch with our emotions.
It goes from reacting impulsively from that place of anger, let's
say, to responding, carefully.
That's number one.
And, and we use this with all ages.
It's so foundational, cognitively labeling.
I think as a big second part of it, and we see this in primary
school kids all the time, is what is the, what does it actually
feel like physically in your body?
Like what is the physical experience of anger right now?
What in your body is telling you?
You are angry and it's universal.
That's what's so beautiful about it.
Anger.
Everyone says the color red, right?
Everyone feels like fire or lava or heat rising.
Everyone describes as tension across the shoulders, across the chest.
Mm-hmm.
So again, the more we're in touch with this, we're gonna have less,
uh, meltdowns or explosions.
We're gonna act less impulsively, we're gonna act less aggressively.
Just on that.
Yeah.
As kids get older, they start to push that feeling down as well and start to,
you know, not want to feel it because it, it feels uncomfortable and so much
of the work in the early years is around getting them to actually notice it,
identify it, label it, and feel it.
And so be comfortable with the feeling that it is a bit uncomfortable.
So coming back to your idea before about failure or things that don't feel great,
like it's okay that that feeling is there.
It might not feel good for you, but let's at least feel it first
before we do something with it.
So I wanna just recap that for people listening 'cause I
think it's really important.
So first we have to get kids to recognize the emotion.
So it's almost that metacognition, right?
To be able to recognize.
This is, I'm feeling angry or I'm feeling, you know, frustrated
or sad, whatever it might be.
And the second is, is what does that feel like in your body to actually own
that feeling in your body and recognize the feeling that, you know, you've got
tightness in your throat or tightness across your chest or your heart's racing.
Okay, so we now, we've recognized it and that is the first part of, regulation.
Now what?
Well, I'll just, uh, add to that, that first tool, let's say just labeling.
I mean, there, there's so many layers to this as well, because I mean, you made
the point, your generation, it's often children are, are seen and not heard.
It's really hard, like I don't wanna, uh, underestimate this.
No, it sounds easy in theory.
It's really hard in practice because so often we have been taught not to actually
allow that emotion of anger or sadness.
Right?
Those uncomfortable ones.
So when you're asking students and you're asking clients, what's the emotion you
are feeling towards, you know, Ben, for hurting you in the playground, they might
go, well, you know, Ben was maybe having a bad day and he probably didn't sleep well.
And so maybe it was hot, and then suddenly, like
automatically we're rationalizing.
And that's a thought, not a feeling.
Mm-hmm.
So you gotta go like, well, okay.
That might be the case that Ben is upset and didn't eat very well, but
what are you feeling here towards Ben?
And suddenly they're like, oh, whoa, okay.
I didn't realize that.
I didn't, what I just said wasn't a feeling.
And then you've gotta, and that's where the work is, is really helpful
in the room, but also where the work can be done with educators and parents.
Yeah, it's, it's, again, sounds really easy in theory.
Hard, really hard for us.
And the second part as well, that, that whole mentality of we're not, we
haven't been raised to focus on the physical experience of our emotions.
We're very good at, at ignoring it, right?
If, if our caregiver, if mom or dad is upset with us and they're yelling
at us because I'm feeling angry, we are very quick at going, well, I'll
just shut down what I'm feeling and I'll just deal with, my caregiver,
mom or dad, or the teacher or sibling.
So easy in theory, really hard to do and, and difficult, especially if
we've never had the experience before, to, to actually be in touch with our
feelings in a safe and secure way.
So I guess then when we're helping children to resolve conflict, especially
when they've come in after playtime or whatever, that whole idea of getting them
to tap into how they are feeling and what it feels like in their body, and then
I guess with the next step after that, then be that whole I feel when, yeah.
And that's the next step to get them to actually talk about the
way they're feeling and not to point fingers, it's how I feel.
This is how I feel when this and this happens, and next time I'd
like you to do this or this or this, or whatever the case might be.
Would that be the right advice to give?
Yeah, a hundred percent.
This is why it's all linked to each other.
Emotion, regulation, metacognition, assertive communication.
It's all, it's all part of it.
And, and just on the flip side, if you're on the receiving end of that as well,
let's say you've come into lunchtime.
You've had a great time and then suddenly a friend of yours is upset with you.
You've also gotta be pretty regulated to be able to receive that and
receive someone you care about.
Then my friend's anger and be able to view it as like, okay,
well Ben's just expressing this to me and communicating this to me.
He's not attacking me.
He's obviously upset and I've done something.
How do I not get defensive?
How do I not dismiss Ben?
Um.
And receive that feedback and emotion in a really productive and helpful way.
We also use the metaphor of a Coke bottle with young people.
They really recognize that and they understand what happens
when you shake up a Coke bottle and then you take the lid off.
They love that as a concept.
And when we, uh, compare that with our bodies.
What happens when we get dysregulated, aside from simply saying, you know,
I felt X when you did y We also say to them, those bubbles are bubbling
up inside you like a bottle of Coke.
And when that moment of, um, you know, stress or conflict or whatever it is,
something that goes wrong and the lid comes off those bubbles, it, the whole
thing's gonna explode just like your body.
And so there are some really, simple foundational techniques
from that, they're called tip skills around being able to kind
of lower your body temperature, for instance, or paced breathing, or
do some form of physical exercise.
Those are really simple techniques that an educator could use at the start of
a lesson or throughout to allow some of those bubbles to come out the air, to come
outta the Coke bottle in a healthy way.
That was actually gonna be my next question to you guys.
Uh, what are some tools or techniques that you can give educators and parents
to use when they're trying to help children to regulate and also to untangle
themselves from negative feelings?
Are there any others that you can add to?
Yeah, there's, there's so many and, and what, what Ben's talking about comes from,
DBT, dialectical Behavioral Therapy in particular, distressed tolerance skills.
So, so we, what's also fun in our workshops is we don't just lecture,
like Ben said earlier, we actually get students to, to practice,
um, and embody the learning.
So, um, we get students to use some energy and.
, the best way to use energy in an effective way is physical exercise.
We, we talk about, um, progressive muscle relaxation or just tensing
and relaxing your muscles.
Just getting really used to, again, what is it, what does tension and and
emotion feel like in, in each body part, A body scan, deep breathing.
Um, lowering bloody temperature as Ben said, visualizations
can be really helpful.
And if you take all of those different tools, the, the common
denominator with all of them,
I guess the implementation of them for an educator, something you wanna be thinking
about regularly is how can I adapt this skill or this tool for any environment?
So it's one thing to be able to say to a student, Hey, a really useful
technique is to meditate, for instance.
If I'm in the middle of a maths test and I'm, I know that I haven't studied
for that maths test and I'm starting to become dysregulated, I can't go
to the other room, put my fingers up in the air and start meditating
in that moment for 10 minutes.
So how could I use one of these tools like tensing and relaxing one body
part during that maths test or during a conflict that is really adaptable?
Because it's something you could, you could tense your fist under the table
or clench your toes or a, a part of your leg, for instance, and then relax
it and feel that sense of relaxation spread to the other parts of your body
without disrupting the whole class or, doing a run around the block
just to get some of that energy out.
So thinking through, okay, is this tool connective and
adaptive in certain scenarios?
So what I hear you saying is that teachers need a toolkit to use.
To give to children in different scenarios or situations, whether
that be, as you said, we can't just stop a lesson midway and oh, let's
now all go run around the oval.
They need different techniques and tools that they can use in specific
situations to help them deal with whatever emotion is arising.
So this then means that as teachers, we really need a whole quiver of
arrows and knowledge to help all these children that we teach because they're
all coming in with, different needs.
Which then tells me that as schools, teachers all need training in things
like conflict resolution and, dealing with anxiety and all these other things
that kids are coming to school with, in that it's not just a teacher's job
anymore just to deliver curriculum.
It's now also our job to be little mini psychologists in
our classrooms, and so we need
tools and training, I think in order to do that.
And I know this is just one little way, one podcast, that we can do that.
But for those teachers and parents too, 'cause I found, for me as
a parent starting out, they say small children, small problems,
big children, big problems.
As they go through and they get to those teenage years, you've
got whole other, other kettle of fish, other problems to deal with.
Just in a little nutshell, give us some things that we can have in our toolbox
that we can use to, to help kids.
Yeah, so we often talk to teachers.
We're talking, we're in schools every day.
And I think Ben will agree with me that yeah, teachers are the heroes.
They're superstars.
They are doing so much
um, and they need to be appreciated more.
Like you said, they're not just teaching, they're doing.
The mini psychologists, they've got so much on their plate and we really,
um, see that, um, in terms of kind of what, what tools we can offer, really
a lot of other ones we've covered.
So really thinking about that emotion regulation, um, toolbox of, of the things
we've covered from DBT, being able to cognitively label the feelings, being
able to embody it, helping, uh, students and kids express them in healthy ways.
Um, a, a big part of it, like we said at the beginning, is also, um.
Being aware of students' cognition and thoughts.
Right?
Um, and if we can teach students certain thinking styles, this is very classic
CBT cognitive behavioral therapy of, well, what, what are the common thinking
patterns that are gonna get in the way?
Um, in today's lesson out in the playground, at the sports field, uh,
on the weekend with friends at home.
And we can encourage students, again, that metacognition to start
thinking about their thinking.
That's gonna empower students to be able to go into that environment.
Whatever it is, catch that unhelpful thought, that fortune telling, that
mind reading, be able to respond to it, challenge it, and balance
that in a really productive way and continue on with what they're doing.
So there's the emotion regulation aspect of it.
There's the cognitive restructuring, um, and then there's also
the dealing with conflict.
How to actually, um, encourage and empower students to, to use
the right words, um, to navigate.
Conflicts,
and I might just add to that.
Systems move and change slowly.
They take a lot of time to change and
ultimately, I think we're seeing that change happening now in education.
Unfortunately, things like classrooms, as you mentioned at the start of this
conversation, haven't, we're still in a, you know, industrial society kind
of situation where kids are all facing the front with a bell every hour.
You wearing the same uniform, all that sort of stuff.
And then not learning in different environments
outside, those sorts of things.
But one thing that is starting to shift, which I think you're touching on here, is
the role of the educator and the teacher.
Whereas in years gone by, it was to teach maths or English or whatever
your subject area expertise is.
And I think we're now seeing more and more schools understand the
importance of social emotional learning, wellbeing and the whole child and get
and preparing them for life beyond year 12 and just their ATAR score.
However, what that means is you're right, teachers do need more in their social
and emotional toolbox and different ways of educating and working with students.
The role, and even the word teacher implies that someone is going to
teach something and they're going to impart wisdom or knowledge or learning
in the area that they know best.
But I think what we are starting to see some brilliant teachers out there doing
is not just teaching by talking, but teaching by listening and role modeling
the skill of actually letting the person share what's going on for them.
I think while there's some amazing tools that, that David's just shared as well,
that teachers can start to use, we know that young people, whether they are in
primary school, middle school, or high school, often, there's so much going on
for them inside that they want to share, and instead of being told how to feel,
you know, don't worry about it or it'll be fine, and telling them the outcome.
One of the tools we need our teachers to hear is around listening and being
able to provide space for young people to share openly and honestly, and
often not even have to have an answer.
I mean, you brought up the idea of parents and little kids,
big kids, bigger problems.
It's like sometimes you just want to be able to talk and share it and
not necessarily have the answer.
It's just a microphone, and an ear to listen to.
So, yeah, I think that's a powerful one that teachers can use as well.
I think that's very, very true.
I was, as I've mentioned before, teaching health the last two years to years
three to six, very many of my lessons would simply be kids just wanting to be
heard, just talking, just conversations.
They really do.
They, I find that they have a dire need to actually express their
feelings and say how they're feeling.
'cause I don't know if they're getting that at home Very often.
They need a space to be able to just talk and have non-judgmental listening.
I think.
I have found that to be true is that they love, they love to talk
about themselves and they want to actually say how they feel.
And sometimes it's frightening to hear these things as a teacher.
'cause sometimes you don't even know how to respond ? But I find they don't
really want to respond very often.
They just want you, to be a sounding board I think.
So I think that's really important.
Um, very many people said to me when I was coming out the classroom, gosh,
you know, you're not gonna make as much of an impact teaching health.
And in some respects that's true.
But in others I thought, crikey no, actually this is a massive
impact because mental wellbeing is so huge now, and I just found that
children just wanted to be heard.
Absolutely.
And a huge part.
Of our workshop but isn't before we even get to the tools, is just
creating a space for, again, doesn't matter what age the students are,
just to normalize and validate.
I mean, going on the Coke bottle, like who in your life shakes up your Coke bottle?
And just kind of sharing it and celebrating it.
That of course, people in our life, people we love shake up our Coke
bottle, our friends, our parents, our teachers, ourselves even, and also what
situations shake up a Coke bottle too.
Just having that space to just normalize it and let it out
is so, like you said, it's so.
That's just what students need and kids need.
And unfortunately from, you know, eight 30 till three 30, there's so
much that's crammed in the day in the lessons for kids to learn and
we have to get through so much.
Often they're operating at like 30 or 40% of their capacity because they're
dealing with so many emotions or thoughts that haven't moved, they haven't got
out of their bodies or their minds.
When in reality, if we're able to create those preconditions for learning
by allowing them the space to talk or share or get some of those things
off their chest, we might be able to bump them up to 70 or 80 or 90%.
We might achieve, we might not achieve as much as we want, but at least
they'll be cognitively, you know, aware, listening, engaging, and
showing up to class ready to learn.
You know, we can't take parents out of the conversation.
It's a three-way little triangle of communication and
language and relationships.
But what role do the parents play in supporting children and
how can schools and teachers collaborate better with families
to get their support for children?
What have you found?
So, I mean, parents play a huge role.
Absolutely they're there from the very beginning.
Um, and like I said before, children are sponges and the biggest people
they're learning from are their parents.
So, parents play a huge role.
Um, and it's hard, like parents, also, have to set, uh, boundaries and try
and shape their children , to be
good, young, healthy, or functioning adults, it's hard.
Plus they're working, plus they're providing, plus they're cleaning, they're
running their little small business.
There's a lot going on for parents.
So, I mean, the approach that we take and, um, psychology takes is it's never
about blaming and going, okay, well that's my, that's because mom and dad
did this and spoke to 'em this way.
Um, everyone's trying their best.
Absolutely everyone's trying their best.
And, and we know parents are as well and most parenting and like, is probably just
passed down from what they experience too.
So, and when you're tired and when you're stressed, what
kicks in is just what you know.
Um, and this is where education, , psychoeducation plays a really big
role in going, okay, maybe this is what we were shown and taught, um, through
our childhood and from our parents.
But there are some things that can really go a long way.
Um, and offering support, offering content, offering workshops.
Um, a big thing we see as well, is naturally parents
come from a loving place.
They see their child in distress in whatever way they come home and
their child's telling about an issue in the playground, or they didn't do
well in the classroom or whatever's going on, and that loving place.
Parents go, oh, they get, they get anxious and go, okay, I'm feeling
anxious, I'm feeling stressed.
How do I fix this?
And we, and parents and all of us are very quick to jump into problem solving mode.
We wanna try and fix.
And like we said, sometimes from that place of wanting to fix and problem
solve, we unintentionally, um, one, dismiss our children's emotions, but
two, also rob kids of the opportunity to actually figure it out for themselves.
I mean, you said it so nicely before, kids often don't need to be told the solution.
They can figure it out themselves.
They're pretty handy and resourceful.
They just need to feel heard.
First and foremost, and they feel safe and secure.
And then when they're feel heard and validated in their experience, often the,
you see it all the time, often the answer or the solution or that course of action
comes spontaneously from that place of like, okay, well here's what I need to do.
Maybe I can study a bit harder.
Maybe I can invite my friend over, maybe I can ask my teacher
for more help after the class.
And part of that as well is, like you were saying before, how much a parent
or a staff, an educator can inflame something through their own dysregulation.
So feeling those emotions and being able to identify cognitively what
you're experiencing as the child, you know, or the student says something
to you or is going through what they're going through to be able to
sit in that discomfort for yourself as well, because there's two people
in that interaction, the parent and the child, or the staff member
and the child and the student.
So being able to be aware of what you are feeling first and recognize,
well, , I actually need to regulate my own emotions first before I help them.
And I, I think also what you just said as well is very important in that so
often the first thing a child thinks that they should do is, or tell a teacher.
And so with my students, I always go, no, please don't come and tell me first.
You've gotta first try and work it out yourself.
Using those techniques that we've taught them, that I've taught
them, I feel da, da, da, da, da.
And then if you can't sort it out and you still feel like you need help, that's
when you come to the teacher and say, I couldn't figure out this problem.
We're having problems.
Can you help us?
I think that you're right.
So often we try and jump in as parents and teachers to try and solve the problem
for kids, but we have to give them some power and autonomy for them to try
and sort it out for themselves first.
I think that's really important.
'cause we don't give them enough credit.
Um.
We get this perpetual circle of every day, oh, I'm gonna tell the teacher, I'm
gonna tell the teacher, and they come running to you with all their problems.
But really we've gotta help them solve their own problems.
I think that's the bottom line.
And to give them the tools and the resources for them to do that effectively.
Would you, would you agree with that?
A hundred percent.
Great.
Gentlemen, I think this has been a really powerful conversation.
And one that I really hope every school and teacher listens to.
So we need to, share this conversation far and wide.
Just share with us, before we go and before we sign off, the tools
and resources and the workshops that toolbox education offers to schools
and, uh, I guess parents as well and students to help them navigate this
new world of ours and the anxiety and the feelings that kids are feeling.
So we run workshops for year one through to year 12.
In the junior years, the primary years focusing on emotion literacy,
managing meltdowns, and understanding how our anxieties affect our
social situations and interactions.
In the middle years, we look at more emotion regulation
skills as we're entering a new environment in the middle school.
How we, understand our anxieties and the videos that play in
our minds about interactions.
And as we move into the senior school, we look at things like dealing with
conflict, overcoming procrastination and self-critical thoughts that pop
up for a lot of students as they're approaching year 11 and 12 and wondering
where they're gonna go in their lives.
We run each of those workshops as well for parents and staff.
And schools,
educators can find us at toolboxeducation.com, uh,
and on Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok, Facebook, you name it.
And just another thing as well, we provide the workshop to teach
the tools, but we really want to scaffold and continue the learning.
So with every workshop we have, was it six to 10 weeks worth of follow up
activities that have been developed by myself and, and I'm mean in
consultation with teachers as well.
So, it's not just a sugar hit, it's kids can learn it and practice it.
So it just becomes automatic and you see it, it becomes second nature.
We can start to challenge our thoughts immediately.
We can start to regulate ourselves.
Automatically.
And last but not least, we also have a, a toolbox clinic.
So we understand that the preventative measures are really important and
these workshops to equip students with the tools, but we also know that some
students and staff and parents and adults are gonna need that support as well.
So we have a team of psychologists that, have client sessions both
face-to-face and telehealth.
And this is, all over Australia.
So we're located in, in Melbourne, that's where we're based, um, in the
Southeast, but we offer telehealth.
Ben and David, you are doing an amazing, wonderful job.
I just commend everything that you're doing, as a, as a teacher and a as a
parent too, I know how important this is.
It's something that we are dealing with more and more every single day because
of, I guess, social media is having a massive influence on children and their
mental health and I cannot overstate how important your work is that you're doing
for children and parents and educators.
So on behalf of everybody, I'd like to thank you for your work that you're
doing and I will share all your links in the show notes so people
can get hold of you if they need to.
And I'd just like to thank you for reaching out and coming onto Blooming
Curious today to share your advice and your knowledge with our listeners today.
So that was Ben and David from Toolbox Education.
I hope that you found today's episode as interesting as I have, and if you
did, please share this episode far and wide with everyone, you know,
because today's episode was really such an important one for our children
and teachers and parents everywhere.
We all need as much help as we can to help our children and ourselves
with the emotions and anxieties and the meltdowns that we experience
just about every single day.
So thanks for listening.
We'll be back next week, same time, same place.
And until then, stay blooming, curious, and don't forget to click that
share button and share this episode right now with someone that you know