WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.619 Today on the podcast, we welcome Dr. Aditya Nagarath, the author of 00:00:04.639 --> 00:00:08.709 Treating Mathematics Anxiety and the founder of Elephant Learning. 00:00:09.380 --> 00:00:12.680 Aditya has a PhD in mathematics and computer science. 00:00:12.680 --> 00:00:16.410 He's an author and the founder of Elephant Learning Mathematics Academy. 00:00:17.070 --> 00:00:20.630 Aditya is on a mission to empower children in mathematics and remove 00:00:20.630 --> 00:00:22.729 the anxiety around mathematics. 00:00:22.860 --> 00:00:26.500 He designed Elephant Learning to be the most effective tool for 00:00:26.500 --> 00:00:29.684 teaching mathematics ever created. 00:00:30.194 --> 00:00:31.134 Welcome Aditya. 00:00:31.134 --> 00:00:33.885 It's such an honor to have you on Blooming Curious today. 00:00:35.364 --> 00:00:36.694 Hi, thank you for having me. 00:00:36.794 --> 00:00:37.635 Happy to be here. 00:00:38.375 --> 00:00:42.265 Really wonderful to have you here and to talk about something I think 00:00:42.274 --> 00:00:47.085 that is quite pertinent for me and I think many others like myself, 00:00:47.135 --> 00:00:51.925 teachers, parents, and anybody who has ever struggled with mathematics 00:00:51.925 --> 00:00:56.385 learning at schools and has children who struggle with mathematics too. 00:00:56.775 --> 00:01:02.165 So let's start with you breaking down how do deficits in mathematics, especially 00:01:02.165 --> 00:01:07.005 in early childhood, because I know that's sort of your focus, lead to 00:01:07.015 --> 00:01:09.465 difficulties in mathematics later on? 00:01:10.955 --> 00:01:11.515 Sure. 00:01:11.815 --> 00:01:15.955 So, one of the things is that mathematics sort of builds upon itself. 00:01:16.425 --> 00:01:20.935 So, like, you can't really understand multiplication unless you understand 00:01:20.935 --> 00:01:25.120 addition, because multiplication is defined as repetitive edition. 00:01:26.300 --> 00:01:29.150 And so like, what we find in, at least in the United States is 00:01:29.150 --> 00:01:32.440 that four out of five students is entering kindergarten unprepared 00:01:32.440 --> 00:01:33.800 for the kindergarten curriculum. 00:01:34.530 --> 00:01:36.870 And that's a gap in language around the numbers. 00:01:37.500 --> 00:01:42.200 And, that, that gap sort of exacerbates over time because at least over 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:46.505 here, we don't tend to hold them back to ensure that they got that. 00:01:46.505 --> 00:01:51.105 I mean, they could be exhibiting that they got it, but, , it leads to, children 00:01:51.125 --> 00:01:55.694 being as much as three years behind, in certain neighborhoods on average. 00:01:55.745 --> 00:01:57.245 Again, breaking down by income. 00:01:58.015 --> 00:02:01.285 And so when you look at that issue and you say, well, so you have a 00:02:01.435 --> 00:02:05.615 student in the classroom in third grade trying to learn multiplication, but 00:02:05.615 --> 00:02:08.575 they have an understanding of numbers that kind of rivals a kindergartner. 00:02:09.095 --> 00:02:13.575 That's an impossible situation for both the teacher and the student. 00:02:14.085 --> 00:02:18.195 And so this also then creates a lot of anxiety around mathematics because those 00:02:18.195 --> 00:02:23.660 students who are, they're kind of getting moved along, they, they also don't feel 00:02:23.670 --> 00:02:25.400 like they understand what's happening. 00:02:25.950 --> 00:02:30.680 And so there's like a lot of strategies then that are developed, uh, as coping 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:33.030 mechanisms to either keep going. 00:02:33.180 --> 00:02:36.620 And then also to maybe avoid the subject. 00:02:37.945 --> 00:02:41.165 So can you give us some more, definitive examples when you say, when 00:02:41.165 --> 00:02:44.425 you talk about the language around mathematics, that children are coming 00:02:44.425 --> 00:02:49.005 into kindergarten and they lack this mathematical or this understanding 00:02:49.015 --> 00:02:50.895 around mathematical language? 00:02:51.795 --> 00:02:52.285 Sure. 00:02:52.545 --> 00:02:57.195 So , the standards define counting to 10, as like, can you give me 10 things? 00:02:57.460 --> 00:03:01.280 And the student is able to slide over 10 things and stop on 10, but 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:04.510 most parents think counting to 10 is just saying the numbers aloud one 00:03:04.510 --> 00:03:08.229 through 10, where they could just be saying it without necessarily 00:03:08.230 --> 00:03:09.710 having understanding underneath. 00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:11.370 Okay. 00:03:11.370 --> 00:03:16.005 So not just say the numbers, you know, when kids are really little, they sing 00:03:16.005 --> 00:03:20.225 the alphabet song or they'll just recite numbers in a classroom, for example. 00:03:20.905 --> 00:03:23.615 So that is, I guess, just one part of it. 00:03:23.625 --> 00:03:28.115 So what you're talking about really is the understanding of 00:03:28.475 --> 00:03:30.475 what those numbers look like. 00:03:30.525 --> 00:03:31.465 Is that correct? 00:03:32.534 --> 00:03:35.924 Well, so like the understanding of the actual quantity behind it. 00:03:35.935 --> 00:03:38.395 So like we, we teach it in three phases. 00:03:38.395 --> 00:03:40.359 So the first phase is. 00:03:40.460 --> 00:03:41.080 definition. 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:42.530 The second phase is recognition. 00:03:42.530 --> 00:03:43.930 The third phase is production. 00:03:44.250 --> 00:03:47.810 And for counting, that sort of looks like, okay, well, I have 00:03:47.870 --> 00:03:50.350 two pens,, I have two fingers. 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:53.060 Then you move on to, recognition. 00:03:53.070 --> 00:03:54.620 So how many fingers am I holding up? 00:03:54.630 --> 00:03:56.000 How many pens do I have? 00:03:56.830 --> 00:03:58.850 And then from there we move on to production. 00:03:58.850 --> 00:04:00.150 Can you give me two pens? 00:04:00.150 --> 00:04:02.660 Can you give me, can you show me two fingers? 00:04:03.300 --> 00:04:08.140 And so like, if they're showing it to you, now they're demonstrating 00:04:08.140 --> 00:04:11.260 full understanding of that language. 00:04:11.920 --> 00:04:15.900 From there, we start to also introduce the ideas of more and less because that's 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:18.620 the ideas of addition and subtraction. 00:04:19.330 --> 00:04:23.040 So we're developing some language like which, which column has more. 00:04:23.620 --> 00:04:28.370 There's a lot of language then after that addition, multiplication, and trying to 00:04:28.370 --> 00:04:32.690 look at it from different angles, like the number line in quantities, base 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:38.270 10, there's just so many different like things that we go through, but what we 00:04:38.270 --> 00:04:42.970 go through is what we consider to be the essential language, because the goal is, 00:04:42.970 --> 00:04:46.550 is that If you can do this, then you can understand the teacher in the classroom. 00:04:47.510 --> 00:04:51.270 Okay, would you like to give us some kind of, an overview, I guess, or just 00:04:51.270 --> 00:04:57.450 some insight into your program, Elephant Learning, and how does that help children, 00:04:57.510 --> 00:04:59.550 and what does it encompass, really? 00:05:00.980 --> 00:05:01.350 Sure. 00:05:01.620 --> 00:05:05.140 So, we cover the essential topics from counting through algebra. 00:05:05.585 --> 00:05:09.655 Uh, the way it works is the students come in and, , most of them start in a 00:05:09.655 --> 00:05:13.915 placement exam, , which helps them or helps our system understand what their 00:05:13.915 --> 00:05:15.915 initial level of understanding is. 00:05:16.335 --> 00:05:20.545 And then from there, we start building them up to, uh, more advanced topics. 00:05:20.545 --> 00:05:24.575 And there's really no kind of end to it, except for , after you get past the end 00:05:24.575 --> 00:05:26.485 of our curriculum, but we keep going. 00:05:26.485 --> 00:05:30.825 So if you've got a third grader and they just stay in our system. 00:05:30.925 --> 00:05:34.045 They can easily get to fractions, decimals, percentages. 00:05:34.045 --> 00:05:35.335 They could be doing algebra. 00:05:35.855 --> 00:05:37.085 We just let them keep going. 00:05:38.755 --> 00:05:45.035 And for me as an early childhood educator, I know when I work with young 00:05:45.035 --> 00:05:51.530 children, we use concrete manipulatives to , establish that number sense and 00:05:51.530 --> 00:05:53.710 that understanding of numbers and value. 00:05:54.690 --> 00:05:57.760 But your program is digital and it's online. 00:05:58.170 --> 00:06:02.820 So how do you bridge that concrete manipulative, that concrete understanding? 00:06:02.820 --> 00:06:05.190 We always say concrete before abstraction. 00:06:05.640 --> 00:06:09.330 How does your program bridge that concrete before abstraction? 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:14.830 Or is there a concrete element in your program, even though it's digital? 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:16.100 Yeah. 00:06:16.100 --> 00:06:20.430 So what we do is we've taken the activities that early age education 00:06:20.780 --> 00:06:23.940 researchers had already determined effective for teaching the, the 00:06:23.940 --> 00:06:27.410 topics, , and we've combined that with adaptive algorithms. 00:06:27.710 --> 00:06:30.090 So the manipulatives are like on the screen. 00:06:30.090 --> 00:06:34.185 So The student gets to choose from a list of characters. 00:06:34.275 --> 00:06:36.595 I think in total we have like a hundred characters. 00:06:37.285 --> 00:06:39.135 And then that's what they're counting basically. 00:06:39.135 --> 00:06:40.425 Those become the manipulatives. 00:06:40.455 --> 00:06:44.675 So like maybe they choose cats and then if they push on the cat it makes a sound. 00:06:44.675 --> 00:06:49.035 So it feels like a, an actual object that they can play with on the screen. 00:06:49.585 --> 00:06:53.435 And then we're running the same activities that have already 00:06:53.475 --> 00:06:54.755 been determined to be effective. 00:06:55.745 --> 00:07:00.535 So you've just taken manipulatives and gamified them as well for kids. 00:07:01.155 --> 00:07:03.645 Yeah, it's a gamification of mathematics. 00:07:05.095 --> 00:07:09.355 Which kids, of course, will love because they love playing games. 00:07:09.635 --> 00:07:14.285 In your experience, I mean, obviously a lot of these kids are coming and I see it 00:07:14.285 --> 00:07:16.255 as well as an early childhood educator. 00:07:17.185 --> 00:07:19.885 And you said it earlier as well, we don't hold children back. 00:07:20.525 --> 00:07:25.485 I've often wondered about that and questioned it because as educators, 00:07:25.675 --> 00:07:29.580 you have a curriculum to get through and very often when the children 00:07:29.650 --> 00:07:31.540 even by the end, don't understand it, 00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:33.780 you know, you're pulling out small groups. 00:07:33.780 --> 00:07:36.580 You're working with those children, trying to get them up to standard. 00:07:36.580 --> 00:07:40.420 But some kids by the end of the year are not up to standard. 00:07:41.090 --> 00:07:44.390 And we're not allowed to hold those kids back. 00:07:44.490 --> 00:07:48.250 In my day, if you weren't up to standard, you would be 00:07:48.250 --> 00:07:50.130 kept back in that grade level. 00:07:50.610 --> 00:07:53.450 But now they're saying it's detrimental to children, so we 00:07:53.450 --> 00:07:55.060 don't hold children back anymore. 00:07:55.420 --> 00:07:59.130 And so we just keep putting these children forward year after year after year, and 00:07:59.130 --> 00:08:01.180 yet they have gaps in their understanding. 00:08:01.785 --> 00:08:05.665 Which I guess exacerbates as they get older and as they go through, 00:08:06.145 --> 00:08:09.685 elementary school and then God forbid, eventually high school where they then 00:08:09.715 --> 00:08:14.555 probably have, I'm assuming, huge gaps in their understanding of mathematics. 00:08:15.715 --> 00:08:20.385 What's your understanding and your advice really, how do you think that 00:08:20.645 --> 00:08:25.385 schools, educators, parents should be handling this kind of situation? 00:08:26.275 --> 00:08:26.545 Yeah. 00:08:26.545 --> 00:08:32.125 I mean, I think the problem , is that it's like trading one consequence for another, 00:08:32.215 --> 00:08:36.205 but I think what they, the research that they're quoting says is that like 00:08:36.205 --> 00:08:40.785 when the students stay with their peer group, the results tend to be better. 00:08:41.515 --> 00:08:44.555 And so I think the, Process that they're running now where they're 00:08:44.555 --> 00:08:48.985 like, well, let's try to separate these particular students out and work with 00:08:48.985 --> 00:08:54.935 them individually might be able to, bridge that gap, but, having a program, 00:08:54.955 --> 00:08:58.875 say, like ours, where, we're able to maybe try to fill in that language 00:08:58.875 --> 00:09:00.995 through, some time on the side. 00:09:00.995 --> 00:09:04.965 I mean it's quite an effective program in 10 minutes per day, three 00:09:04.965 --> 00:09:07.965 days per week, students will learn on average a year and a half of 00:09:07.965 --> 00:09:09.485 math over the course of 10 weeks. 00:09:10.105 --> 00:09:13.955 So some sort of supplement like this then would also be great right. 00:09:13.955 --> 00:09:17.345 Because, for example, what we do for classrooms is we 00:09:17.345 --> 00:09:21.255 show, the teachers, in cohorts. 00:09:21.255 --> 00:09:23.715 So like these students are kind of at the same level. 00:09:24.055 --> 00:09:25.165 These other students are right. 00:09:25.165 --> 00:09:27.745 So if you're a third grade teacher and you got some students at the first grade 00:09:27.745 --> 00:09:29.045 level, second grade level, and then. 00:09:29.475 --> 00:09:32.925 a whole bunch that are above, at grade level or above. 00:09:32.935 --> 00:09:36.295 Well, you know, I can give the main lecture to these students, but these 00:09:36.295 --> 00:09:39.635 other students I have to work with maybe separately or differently 00:09:39.635 --> 00:09:42.355 because they're not going to understand the third grade lecture. 00:09:43.445 --> 00:09:47.405 So is there a built in process in the program that caters to where the 00:09:47.405 --> 00:09:51.245 child is at that stage, irrespective of what grade level they're at? 00:09:51.725 --> 00:09:55.325 So it's this automatic, , I guess you go up levels as you answer correctly. 00:09:55.560 --> 00:09:58.820 questions correctly, etc. Is that what it does? 00:09:59.460 --> 00:10:00.070 Okay, it's 00:10:00.070 --> 00:10:02.120 adaptive algorithms is what we call it. 00:10:02.130 --> 00:10:05.800 So students older than five start in a placement exam. 00:10:06.290 --> 00:10:09.970 And what it does is it very quickly is able to kind of move them up. 00:10:09.970 --> 00:10:13.470 So like the way I like to describe it to parents is to think about it like a 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:15.700 basketball hoop that moves up and down. 00:10:16.090 --> 00:10:19.700 And the goal is we just kind of want to get the basketball hoop to the height 00:10:20.340 --> 00:10:21.380 of where the student can throw it. 00:10:21.380 --> 00:10:23.890 So maybe at first it goes up a foot and then once you get out of 00:10:23.890 --> 00:10:26.680 placement mode, well, now it's just kind of moving up and down with the 00:10:26.680 --> 00:10:28.810 student as they get it in or out. 00:10:28.810 --> 00:10:33.090 So, it's more complicated than that because it's not necessarily a straight 00:10:33.090 --> 00:10:38.340 line of ideas, kind of a complicated web, but, uh, that's the ultimate 00:10:38.350 --> 00:10:41.400 thing is that we're trying to find their initial level of understanding 00:10:41.420 --> 00:10:42.860 and then we're meeting them there. 00:10:42.860 --> 00:10:46.940 So the puzzles should feel challenging, but not too hard. 00:10:47.970 --> 00:10:49.680 I love that you just say challenging. 00:10:50.640 --> 00:10:54.060 Because I think very often, we don't challenge children enough. 00:10:54.860 --> 00:10:58.780 I think we need to set high standards for kids, that's just my personal opinion, 00:10:58.860 --> 00:11:02.890 and that's the way I raise my kids, and that's what I do in my own classroom, 00:11:02.910 --> 00:11:06.370 is I set high standards for children, because actually if you set the bar, 00:11:06.800 --> 00:11:09.950 I mean, not out of reach, but you've got to give them a challenge, right? 00:11:10.170 --> 00:11:11.540 That's why kids love games. 00:11:11.540 --> 00:11:14.170 That's why they love playing games, because there's a challenge. 00:11:14.490 --> 00:11:17.580 Because, you earn so many coins and you get to the next level. 00:11:18.220 --> 00:11:19.660 They enjoy that challenge. 00:11:19.660 --> 00:11:22.870 And so we do have to set challenges and just push kids a little bit, 00:11:23.290 --> 00:11:24.770 because otherwise they don't grow. 00:11:25.130 --> 00:11:28.240 So I love that you've said that that does have challenges and 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:31.270 so that we can actually expect something more of children. 00:11:31.290 --> 00:11:35.740 I think very often we don't set that bar high enough for kids. 00:11:36.100 --> 00:11:42.365 And so they don't experience the euphoria, that dopamine hit that comes 00:11:42.365 --> 00:11:49.215 with, achieving something difficult or doing and completing a difficult task 00:11:49.765 --> 00:11:52.195 it's a compromising of the standards. 00:11:52.295 --> 00:11:56.775 So like the challenge is, is that and we talk about this in the book, treating 00:11:56.775 --> 00:12:02.745 mathematics, anxiety, um, like if the students playing basketball, the ball, 00:12:02.755 --> 00:12:06.035 it's very clear to everyone, did it go in the hoop or did it not go in the hoop? 00:12:06.725 --> 00:12:10.205 The other thing that is, kind of special is that the coach 00:12:10.225 --> 00:12:12.285 can not shoot for the player. 00:12:12.295 --> 00:12:13.955 The, the player shooting the ball. 00:12:14.660 --> 00:12:15.570 And they know, right? 00:12:15.570 --> 00:12:19.440 Like if the coach could somehow shoot for the player, then one of the things 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:24.440 that happens is that the player would not believe that they could play basketball. 00:12:24.770 --> 00:12:26.770 They believe the coach could play basketball. 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:30.170 And so there's some challenges basically with 00:12:30.525 --> 00:12:35.675 the idea of, everyone gets a trophy, but , it depends on how it's implemented 00:12:35.695 --> 00:12:39.255 because the standard could be that like, okay, well the team that 00:12:39.255 --> 00:12:42.435 wins gets a big trophy and everyone else gets the part and that's fine. 00:12:42.435 --> 00:12:42.605 Right? 00:12:42.615 --> 00:12:43.925 Like, okay, you participated. 00:12:43.925 --> 00:12:45.315 So you met that standard. 00:12:45.345 --> 00:12:46.185 You're the winning team. 00:12:47.210 --> 00:12:51.990 Yeah, but like the challenge occurs when we compromise the standard when like 00:12:51.990 --> 00:12:56.160 we say the ball went in when it didn't and that's, that's the real challenge. 00:12:57.030 --> 00:13:01.290 Tell me Aditya, you talk about Math anxiety, what causes it? 00:13:03.190 --> 00:13:09.600 So any place where we don't know what something means, we start to have anxiety. 00:13:09.640 --> 00:13:11.420 That's just kind of human nature. 00:13:11.930 --> 00:13:15.455 So like this gap in understanding that we're describing is 00:13:15.455 --> 00:13:17.005 the source of the anxiety. 00:13:17.475 --> 00:13:22.005 It's just that the challenge , is that from a belief level for anything that the 00:13:22.005 --> 00:13:26.485 students trying to do, they're falling into, I can do this or I can't do this. 00:13:26.485 --> 00:13:30.700 And they're looking at what's happening around them as evidence for like, Oh 00:13:30.700 --> 00:13:33.790 yeah, that's the, so like whatever direction they're trending towards, 00:13:34.640 --> 00:13:35.750 that's the way they're headed. 00:13:35.980 --> 00:13:40.910 And so like, as educators, as coaches, we have to keep them on 00:13:40.910 --> 00:13:44.070 the, I can do this side of, it. 00:13:44.250 --> 00:13:48.230 And so like that involves telling them that I believe you can do this because 00:13:48.770 --> 00:13:52.800 when you do that, you've kind of made a commitment to them that like, I'm 00:13:52.800 --> 00:13:54.020 going to be here until you do this. 00:13:55.175 --> 00:13:58.785 And they've also kind of implicitly made a commitment back because if 00:13:58.835 --> 00:14:03.295 they didn't leave well now They're committed to doing it And so now the 00:14:03.295 --> 00:14:06.295 second step is is you have to meet them at their level of understanding. 00:14:06.295 --> 00:14:10.055 Because if you meet them too high they continue to not understand you Continue 00:14:10.055 --> 00:14:14.710 to develop more anxiety and if you go too easy It feels like patronization. 00:14:14.790 --> 00:14:18.290 And so it's about kind of meeting them at that level and then showing 00:14:18.290 --> 00:14:19.520 them, yeah, you're doing it. 00:14:19.580 --> 00:14:22.660 So students in our system, after three or four weeks, they're showing some 00:14:22.660 --> 00:14:25.840 gains our coaches start to reflect that back to them and say, Hey, 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:29.855 look, you've learned a half a year of math in the last two or three weeks. 00:14:30.135 --> 00:14:31.825 So that's a big deal, right? 00:14:31.865 --> 00:14:33.705 Like, people don't do that very often. 00:14:33.715 --> 00:14:36.325 So now they, they start to feel like they can do it. 00:14:37.415 --> 00:14:38.265 You know, that's very true. 00:14:38.265 --> 00:14:41.265 And I'll relate a quick little example from my own life. 00:14:41.295 --> 00:14:45.155 My son, who's now 24, has just graduated in a double degree in 00:14:45.155 --> 00:14:47.075 chemical engineering and metallurgy. 00:14:47.105 --> 00:14:49.275 So maths, right? 00:14:49.865 --> 00:14:51.185 When he was in year two. 00:14:51.250 --> 00:14:53.990 A teacher called us in and said, your child is struggling. 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.110 And we thought, Oh, my word. 00:14:56.430 --> 00:14:58.880 And the very first thing we did is we got him some tutoring. 00:14:58.890 --> 00:15:03.460 And this tutoring program was a gamification online thing where 00:15:03.460 --> 00:15:04.880 we took him, I think, once a week. 00:15:04.890 --> 00:15:08.440 And what we discovered was it wasn't that he was bad at maths. 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:10.040 On the contrary, he was really good at maths. 00:15:10.100 --> 00:15:11.170 But he had. 00:15:11.595 --> 00:15:16.105 an anxiety issue against maths because he compared himself to some of the kids 00:15:16.105 --> 00:15:18.725 in the class who were really high flyers. 00:15:18.725 --> 00:15:23.715 But what he didn't know was that those parents of those children were sending 00:15:23.715 --> 00:15:30.015 them to tutoring, not because they were struggling, but to make them high flyers. 00:15:30.485 --> 00:15:35.135 And so he was comparing himself to those children and thinking, 00:15:35.175 --> 00:15:36.935 I'm stupid, I can't do this. 00:15:37.445 --> 00:15:40.565 And the minute we sent him for this, these extra lessons. 00:15:40.810 --> 00:15:44.190 He realized, well, yeah, he can do exactly what they can do. 00:15:44.220 --> 00:15:46.960 And he, all he needed was this little bit of a confidence boost. 00:15:47.310 --> 00:15:50.500 I think it just took a few weeks for a few months , and off he went. 00:15:50.510 --> 00:15:51.870 There was no problem ever again. 00:15:51.870 --> 00:15:56.790 And as I said, he's just, graduated in mathematics and he's an engineer now. 00:15:57.180 --> 00:16:01.445 So I think the message there for parents is when kids are struggling, you have to 00:16:01.445 --> 00:16:03.215 step in and do something to help them. 00:16:03.215 --> 00:16:05.475 You can't just leave them flaying. 00:16:05.765 --> 00:16:11.125 And also, I think it's sometimes just about their levels of confidence. 00:16:11.135 --> 00:16:13.855 Sometimes they just, it's not that they can't do it. 00:16:14.005 --> 00:16:19.055 You have to give them the confidence and do whatever you need to do to 00:16:19.055 --> 00:16:20.805 make sure that they can succeed. 00:16:21.405 --> 00:16:24.845 So for me, that's always important because, and I noticed as well, and you 00:16:24.845 --> 00:16:29.395 actually mentioned it on your website, I thought it was a really pertinent point. 00:16:29.395 --> 00:16:34.415 We seem to have fewer and fewer kids and I know it's very true for here in Australia. 00:16:35.645 --> 00:16:39.745 So I don't know about in America, but here in Australia, when you get 00:16:39.745 --> 00:16:43.475 to high school, kids can do three different levels of mathematics. 00:16:43.990 --> 00:16:46.480 You have the highest level of mathematics and there's sort of a 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:51.160 middle one methods and then there's a slightly lower form of mathematics. 00:16:51.520 --> 00:16:55.500 And it seems to me that kids are being talked out of doing higher 00:16:55.500 --> 00:16:59.440 levels of mathematics, those STEM subjects for whatever reason. 00:17:00.340 --> 00:17:03.650 Personally, I think we need STEM. 00:17:03.650 --> 00:17:08.410 And I think we need people to be doing mathematics, even if you never use it. 00:17:09.310 --> 00:17:14.830 For example, I have another son who's finished studying actuarial science. 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:18.890 And what he said was, of course, it's all mathematics driven. 00:17:18.910 --> 00:17:23.050 But he said that high level of mathematics allows you to think differently about 00:17:23.050 --> 00:17:28.830 solving problems, and it gives you a different dimension to your thinking. 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:35.350 So, to me, I think why is it, and I don't know if you have that issue in the States, 00:17:35.350 --> 00:17:39.080 but we certainly, I see it with, when I speak to colleagues and things with,, 00:17:39.370 --> 00:17:43.680 whose, children are going through high school, where schools are almost actively 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:47.850 in some instances, and I'm going to be really awful here and say, it's often 00:17:47.850 --> 00:17:52.280 with girls, say to them they don't need to do those higher levels of mathematics, 00:17:52.300 --> 00:17:57.660 because I think even if you're going to be doing law, for example, which doesn't need 00:17:57.670 --> 00:18:03.740 mathematics, If you are capable of doing that higher level and you're capable of 00:18:03.740 --> 00:18:07.810 thinking broadly and having that problem solving, shouldn't you be doing that? 00:18:07.840 --> 00:18:11.460 And I know that you've said in the video on your website, you have some 00:18:11.460 --> 00:18:13.980 very strong takeaways about that. 00:18:13.990 --> 00:18:17.400 So I'd love you to share that now for anyone listening and thinking 00:18:17.730 --> 00:18:20.135 about you know, pushing their kids. 00:18:20.465 --> 00:18:22.935 And I know I say pushing, I think, oh my gosh, you're going to make them do 00:18:22.935 --> 00:18:24.335 things that they're not ready to do. 00:18:24.355 --> 00:18:25.175 No, it's not. 00:18:25.205 --> 00:18:29.955 It's about making sure and helping your kids meet their full potential. 00:18:31.145 --> 00:18:36.105 What are your thoughts around those STEM subjects and the higher level of 00:18:36.105 --> 00:18:40.815 critical thinking and problem solving with regards to mathematics in schools? 00:18:41.615 --> 00:18:45.085 Well, yeah, so like the STEM subjects are extremely important, and there's 00:18:45.085 --> 00:18:50.345 a lot of, I think, systemic push to try to get students to engage 00:18:50.345 --> 00:18:55.355 in the STEM topics, though the challenge is that if, you don't have 00:18:55.355 --> 00:18:59.185 a strong understanding of algebra, you can't engage in those subjects. 00:18:59.605 --> 00:19:04.665 So, like, while in the United States, and I don't know how it is in Australia, 00:19:04.665 --> 00:19:06.355 but it's probably similar, right? 00:19:06.355 --> 00:19:10.865 We have a push towards third grade reading. 00:19:10.925 --> 00:19:14.475 So like, oh, we have to get every student to the third grade reading level. 00:19:15.505 --> 00:19:18.565 And I mean, it makes a lot of sense to me when you think about it, 00:19:18.565 --> 00:19:22.655 like from a government perspective, because it's if I can get them to 00:19:22.655 --> 00:19:26.455 the third grade reading level, then they at least match George Bush. 00:19:26.465 --> 00:19:28.775 So that's the average American, right? 00:19:28.875 --> 00:19:31.875 The average Americans at the third grade reading level or higher. 00:19:32.265 --> 00:19:35.925 And if I can at least get all of these kids to the third grade reading level, 00:19:35.935 --> 00:19:37.905 they're at least functional in reading. 00:19:38.765 --> 00:19:41.355 But the challenge , is that like for mathematics. 00:19:41.810 --> 00:19:45.930 You don't actually get to the written language of mathematics 00:19:45.930 --> 00:19:47.230 until you get to algebra. 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:52.790 And so if you want to read anything on finance finances or statistics or et 00:19:52.790 --> 00:19:59.085 cetera, et cetera, et cetera, chemistry, physics, you have to have enough algebra 00:19:59.565 --> 00:20:04.665 and feel confident enough with variables and functions and, you know, to kind 00:20:04.665 --> 00:20:08.945 of understand what's happening, because if you see an X and a Y and a Z, and 00:20:08.945 --> 00:20:13.605 it flips you out, that's, that's kind of the end of the story here, right? 00:20:14.125 --> 00:20:20.045 And so there's then the anxiety of the people in the system. 00:20:20.055 --> 00:20:24.805 So like half of first and second graders, uh, in America, almost half 00:20:24.805 --> 00:20:28.505 of first and second graders in America report having mathematics anxiety, 00:20:28.975 --> 00:20:32.495 but that matches half of all Americans that have mathematics anxiety. 00:20:33.295 --> 00:20:36.705 And so that means there's a 50 percent chance that your student's 00:20:36.705 --> 00:20:39.155 teacher also has mathematics anxiety. 00:20:39.765 --> 00:20:44.495 And so, like, the problem with the anxiety is that it wants to prove itself right. 00:20:44.525 --> 00:20:48.775 And the way that it proves itself right is typically avoidance tactic, right? 00:20:48.825 --> 00:20:50.575 Either sabotage or avoidance. 00:20:50.605 --> 00:20:54.895 Avoidance is a lot less humiliating than sabotage, so 00:20:55.295 --> 00:20:56.955 avoidance is the first tactic. 00:20:57.435 --> 00:21:02.075 And so, if I have math anxiety and I have to teach you mathematics, 00:21:02.675 --> 00:21:05.315 Well, it's just, what do you need? 00:21:07.545 --> 00:21:11.435 And now, so you see what I'm saying is like, these are the real challenges 00:21:11.445 --> 00:21:16.445 that the system is facing, but now when you look at maybe the philosophical 00:21:16.445 --> 00:21:19.695 definition of mathematics actually is, 00:21:20.465 --> 00:21:27.290 I define it as, as the tool that you use to solve a problem and now, like, 00:21:27.370 --> 00:21:30.580 when I'm talking about that, , people think well, you're talking about 00:21:30.580 --> 00:21:35.390 arithmetic, which, yeah, by the way, has solved a lot of problems for humanity, 00:21:35.810 --> 00:21:39.590 but I'm talking about something maybe a little bit more abstract than that. 00:21:39.600 --> 00:21:42.775 So, for example, One of the subjects that you might learn in an 00:21:42.775 --> 00:21:44.675 advanced math degree is game theory. 00:21:44.715 --> 00:21:49.245 So you analyze these different games, like for example, the Cuban Missile 00:21:49.515 --> 00:21:52.155 Crisis is equivalent to a game of chicken. 00:21:52.705 --> 00:21:55.305 And so like when you're analyzing these games, you're looking 00:21:55.305 --> 00:21:56.625 at what are all the outcomes? 00:21:56.625 --> 00:21:57.825 What is the best outcome? 00:21:58.065 --> 00:22:00.555 What are winning strategies that the players could be 00:22:00.555 --> 00:22:02.325 engaged in, for example, right? 00:22:02.385 --> 00:22:06.645 So that's one example of where I've taken a field, which would be extremely 00:22:06.645 --> 00:22:10.185 non mathematical, which is politics and said, but look, that's the 00:22:10.185 --> 00:22:12.505 first game you study in game theory. 00:22:12.615 --> 00:22:15.075 What's one of the simplest games because it's, it's not 00:22:15.075 --> 00:22:17.375 a very deep game to analyze. 00:22:17.885 --> 00:22:20.005 And so this is one of the challenges 00:22:20.520 --> 00:22:27.160 if the definition of mathematics is a study of tools to solve problems, 00:22:27.940 --> 00:22:31.360 then how is it not pertinent? 00:22:33.300 --> 00:22:36.410 Like, if you're solving a problem somewhere. 00:22:37.050 --> 00:22:41.650 Now, the challenge is that the anxious thinking, again, is well, you just need 00:22:41.660 --> 00:22:43.550 to be able to solve business problems. 00:22:43.580 --> 00:22:48.110 Or you just need to be able to solve You know, language arts 00:22:48.120 --> 00:22:52.810 problems, like the amount of math you need to know that, right? 00:22:52.820 --> 00:22:53.950 Like, what do you need to know? 00:22:54.220 --> 00:22:58.770 So we're not trying really to now, if the student, they want 00:22:58.770 --> 00:23:00.350 it, they're able to get it right. 00:23:00.380 --> 00:23:03.540 Like they're able to go into MBA programs or advanced math. 00:23:04.020 --> 00:23:09.570 So it's the student who has to be motivated to go get it ultimately, 00:23:09.570 --> 00:23:14.170 because no one else can attain freedom for you, especially when they 00:23:14.190 --> 00:23:15.950 themselves don't believe they can do it. 00:23:15.950 --> 00:23:16.190 Right. 00:23:16.190 --> 00:23:18.010 And that's why they don't believe you can do it. 00:23:21.010 --> 00:23:21.470 Okay. 00:23:21.620 --> 00:23:22.740 That was massive. 00:23:22.790 --> 00:23:26.270 Absolutely what you just said, I agree with you, but then we really 00:23:26.270 --> 00:23:30.750 do need educators and parents to, in the first place, have a 00:23:30.750 --> 00:23:32.160 greater belief in themselves. 00:23:32.190 --> 00:23:37.170 And you talk about the Math anxiety, but, and you're mostly targeting kids. 00:23:37.540 --> 00:23:39.540 Do you have programs that can help 00:23:39.725 --> 00:23:43.505 educators and parents to target their anxiety and mathematics and 00:23:43.505 --> 00:23:47.895 perhaps get them to a level where they can actually help children? 00:23:47.895 --> 00:23:52.305 Because I also think it's a massive problem if we can only have reading 00:23:52.305 --> 00:23:57.600 till third grade because I've seen it as an educator is that if children 00:23:57.600 --> 00:24:01.710 can't read, they can't read a maths problem because it's really English. 00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:04.040 You have to be able to read and understand. 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:05.950 So that's the standard, right? 00:24:06.270 --> 00:24:09.070 Can we get them to the third grade reading level? 00:24:09.260 --> 00:24:10.710 But that's not enough. 00:24:10.780 --> 00:24:11.410 The goal. 00:24:11.560 --> 00:24:12.090 It's not enough. 00:24:13.230 --> 00:24:13.590 I mean, 00:24:13.600 --> 00:24:18.530 now you can't be in high school and have a third grade English reading level. 00:24:18.530 --> 00:24:20.610 That just, that's insane. 00:24:21.130 --> 00:24:26.050 So, to set the bar so low for children, is that all we can 00:24:26.050 --> 00:24:27.360 actually get out of teachers? 00:24:27.370 --> 00:24:30.600 Just to teach at a third grade level in English? 00:24:30.610 --> 00:24:34.160 Well, I don't, I don't think that, , they necessarily have the 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:37.780 percentage that they're looking for, which is why that's the goal, right? 00:24:37.780 --> 00:24:39.480 The percentage of proficiency. 00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:43.060 So it's not like they stop teaching reading at that point, right? 00:24:43.060 --> 00:24:43.460 No, of course. 00:24:43.460 --> 00:24:45.430 They keep, whoever can keep going. 00:24:45.765 --> 00:24:46.575 It keeps going. 00:24:46.575 --> 00:24:50.295 But the goal , is like, we got to get everyone above that level. 00:24:50.575 --> 00:24:54.235 So like real, I think scare behind it is that like, well, there's 00:24:54.235 --> 00:24:57.465 so many students that are not at that third grade reading level. 00:24:57.930 --> 00:25:01.540 Because they haven't introduced synthetic phonics because they're still messing 00:25:01.540 --> 00:25:05.610 around with programs that actually don't work on, are not scientifically proven. 00:25:06.090 --> 00:25:09.440 So and that impacts mathematics and all children's learning. 00:25:09.980 --> 00:25:14.520 And I know it's changing, but as far as see it's not changing fast enough 00:25:14.540 --> 00:25:16.470 because we're letting children down. 00:25:16.715 --> 00:25:21.895 And if you're an educator and a parent, your job is to educate 00:25:21.935 --> 00:25:25.545 and to give children the best opportunity as you possibly can. 00:25:25.865 --> 00:25:30.275 And that means using scientifically proven programs that actually help 00:25:30.345 --> 00:25:34.705 children learn and achieve their outcomes and achieve their full potential. 00:25:34.795 --> 00:25:36.505 Also set higher, right? 00:25:36.505 --> 00:25:37.560 Absolutely. 00:25:38.220 --> 00:25:40.360 Yeah, that's one of the other things they could be doing. 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:41.900 Wow. 00:25:41.950 --> 00:25:47.160 Talk to me about strategies that you think parents can use at home, to foster more 00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:50.360 positive relationships with mathematics. 00:25:50.390 --> 00:25:53.700 Because I know as a teacher, and I've spoken to parents in my classroom, 00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:59.680 and one of the things I often see is that there's this breakdown between 00:25:59.690 --> 00:26:01.890 mathematics and the rest of our lives. 00:26:01.890 --> 00:26:03.060 It's like in a little box. 00:26:03.060 --> 00:26:04.470 It's like in a compartment. 00:26:04.830 --> 00:26:07.370 And I know I very often have said to parents, look, you've got to 00:26:07.370 --> 00:26:10.830 make it part of your everyday existence, your everyday life. 00:26:10.830 --> 00:26:13.700 And you've got to involve your children in your shopping and in 00:26:13.700 --> 00:26:17.270 your cooking and in your language. 00:26:17.360 --> 00:26:20.270 And you're talking about mathematics so that they can see 00:26:20.530 --> 00:26:22.250 it's part of our everyday life. 00:26:22.250 --> 00:26:24.650 And we use it in our everyday life. 00:26:25.310 --> 00:26:28.650 How do you go about helping parents have the strategies to deal with that? 00:26:28.650 --> 00:26:32.420 Right. 00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:37.410 So what we do is, for the subject matter that's active for our 00:26:37.410 --> 00:26:41.000 students, we describe it to the parents so that they can understand 00:26:41.020 --> 00:26:42.500 what the level of the student is. 00:26:42.500 --> 00:26:45.550 So for example, cooking is going to require fractions, 00:26:45.550 --> 00:26:46.600 decimals, and percentages. 00:26:46.610 --> 00:26:49.620 So like if the student isn't in fractions, decimals, and percentages, 00:26:50.050 --> 00:26:53.170 talking them to them about a half cup, you got to understand, well, 00:26:53.420 --> 00:26:54.750 you're starting from zero, right? 00:26:54.750 --> 00:26:57.380 So you can, but you're at the defined stage, right? 00:26:57.380 --> 00:26:57.532 Right. 00:26:57.532 --> 00:26:57.685 Okay. 00:26:57.965 --> 00:27:01.285 And so we encourage parents to use the language out loud. 00:27:01.285 --> 00:27:04.715 We find that students start using the language out loud more, , as 00:27:04.715 --> 00:27:05.885 they come through our system. 00:27:06.545 --> 00:27:11.525 And I think that one of the things is that like societally we kind of tell, I 00:27:12.005 --> 00:27:16.265 mean, at least my parents told me, I don't tell my children this because it doesn't 00:27:16.265 --> 00:27:17.945 work, but oh, don't do it out loud. 00:27:17.985 --> 00:27:19.225 Don't do the math out loud. 00:27:19.225 --> 00:27:19.465 Right? 00:27:19.615 --> 00:27:23.865 So like as adults now, like when we start doing math, we're doing it in our 00:27:23.865 --> 00:27:28.615 head, but theoretically speaking, we should be doing it maybe out loud because 00:27:28.615 --> 00:27:30.695 then they'd be hearing the language 00:27:30.715 --> 00:27:33.305 cause that's the way children learn languages through the 00:27:33.305 --> 00:27:36.525 inference, they're hearing us use the language and then they're trying 00:27:36.525 --> 00:27:37.885 to figure out what does it mean. 00:27:39.210 --> 00:27:39.950 Well, it makes sense. 00:27:39.950 --> 00:27:42.580 If you think that we try to teach them reading where they have to 00:27:42.580 --> 00:27:47.090 actually sound out the words that they can hear the sounds and see 00:27:47.090 --> 00:27:50.860 the letters, and often we have a kinesthetic component to that as well. 00:27:51.310 --> 00:27:52.030 So it makes sense. 00:27:52.040 --> 00:27:54.140 Why wouldn't you do that in mathematics, right? 00:27:55.080 --> 00:27:55.640 Right. 00:27:56.630 --> 00:28:00.160 And I mean, being able to hear their thinking, that would be great. 00:28:00.170 --> 00:28:00.520 Right. 00:28:00.550 --> 00:28:03.480 But if we're telling them, no, don't do that, then you asking 00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:07.310 them later, but show your thinking, it's contradictory messaging. 00:28:07.840 --> 00:28:11.890 So I'm going to ask you a question how would you redesign an early childhood 00:28:11.890 --> 00:28:17.170 math curriculum, if you could design the math curriculum in schools for the early 00:28:17.170 --> 00:28:21.600 childhood, where kids are just starting with mathematics, what would you do? 00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:26.630 Well, I mean, the main thing is if we could just make sure that 00:28:27.350 --> 00:28:32.150 all the students are at the level, then theoretically speaking, the 00:28:32.150 --> 00:28:34.300 education system actually works. 00:28:34.300 --> 00:28:38.340 So we designed our program to kind of like, if we could just 00:28:38.340 --> 00:28:43.030 fill in the essential topics, then whatever curriculum you fit around 00:28:43.030 --> 00:28:44.470 it should theoretically work. 00:28:45.050 --> 00:28:47.600 At the end of the day, the language for mathematics, uh, 00:28:47.600 --> 00:28:49.390 is fairly universal, right? 00:28:49.390 --> 00:28:54.180 It's the same here in the U. S. as it is in Australia, and oddly enough, it's 00:28:54.180 --> 00:28:58.500 the same in Russia, even though they don't use the same, characters we do. 00:28:58.580 --> 00:29:02.290 So, that piece, I think, , is sort of well known. 00:29:02.320 --> 00:29:06.960 And it's just, now it's just a matter of figuring out where will the child engage. 00:29:07.415 --> 00:29:10.655 Um, and where will their natural curiosity take over? 00:29:11.355 --> 00:29:15.205 Tell us a little bit more about, Elephant Learning and how does it 00:29:15.365 --> 00:29:17.935 specifically address these deficits? 00:29:18.415 --> 00:29:25.425 And how does your approach transform children's lives in terms of 00:29:25.625 --> 00:29:27.155 their mathematics understanding? 00:29:28.645 --> 00:29:33.215 Well, it's the adaptive algorithms, uh, combined with the early age education 00:29:33.215 --> 00:29:36.745 research, meeting them at their level, so like, that's very important. 00:29:37.155 --> 00:29:41.125 And then, between the videos that we give to the parents to help the parents 00:29:41.135 --> 00:29:45.235 kind of be at their level and the coaching program that we have so that if 00:29:45.245 --> 00:29:48.225 any of these people have anxiety, they could be talking to our coaches and we 00:29:48.225 --> 00:29:49.845 could be helping out wherever we can. 00:29:50.445 --> 00:29:53.245 Between all of that, like they learn a year and a half math 00:29:53.245 --> 00:29:54.515 over the course of 10 weeks. 00:29:54.975 --> 00:29:59.025 So, once they catch up to their age, if they're behind or have 00:29:59.025 --> 00:30:00.615 surpassed their age in any way. 00:30:01.235 --> 00:30:03.665 Then their confidence kind of skyrockets. 00:30:03.705 --> 00:30:06.105 Plus they're seeing success in the classroom. 00:30:06.105 --> 00:30:08.335 They're understanding the teacher they're participating. 00:30:08.905 --> 00:30:13.115 And so like they actually go from maybe not liking mathematics to 00:30:13.115 --> 00:30:16.765 loving mathematics and it makes a lot of sense because if you're, 00:30:16.805 --> 00:30:19.835 in a, say a second or third year 00:30:20.210 --> 00:30:21.700 course for something that's not your major. 00:30:21.700 --> 00:30:24.910 Like if I took, like, just jumped into third year economics, I 00:30:24.910 --> 00:30:26.230 wouldn't understand what's going on. 00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:29.740 It's going to be, maybe a very exhausting thing, cause you're gonna 00:30:29.740 --> 00:30:31.330 get bored and fall asleep probably. 00:30:32.180 --> 00:30:36.600 And, by making it so that, yeah, no, they have that language. 00:30:36.600 --> 00:30:39.170 They're able to go into the classroom and now participate. 00:30:39.170 --> 00:30:42.550 So if I had taken the first two years of those economics courses, 00:30:42.550 --> 00:30:45.630 and I understand what the professor's talking about now, it's probably 00:30:45.630 --> 00:30:47.160 a very interesting conversation. 00:30:47.740 --> 00:30:51.830 And so that I think is the most, uh, maybe rewarding thing about 00:30:51.830 --> 00:30:54.550 it because , any student that we get, that's now interested in 00:30:54.550 --> 00:30:56.770 mathematics, those STEM futures 00:30:57.445 --> 00:30:58.245 are within their grasp. 00:30:59.135 --> 00:31:00.885 Which is so, so necessary. 00:31:01.965 --> 00:31:06.015 Aditya, can you share some success stories of kids that you've helped, 00:31:06.015 --> 00:31:07.275 maybe even your own children? 00:31:07.275 --> 00:31:08.255 I know you're a father. 00:31:09.235 --> 00:31:12.995 What are some success stories, little stories and anecdotes that you 00:31:12.995 --> 00:31:17.145 can tell us about kids that have gone through your program or have 00:31:17.145 --> 00:31:20.275 changed their outlook on mathematics? 00:31:21.735 --> 00:31:22.225 Sure. 00:31:22.235 --> 00:31:25.965 So Some of these things that I was saying from those were testimonials. 00:31:25.975 --> 00:31:27.395 So these are mainly testimonials. 00:31:27.395 --> 00:31:29.625 They come in typically through comments on Facebook. 00:31:29.625 --> 00:31:33.255 Sometimes they email us a lot of times they might be talking to our coach 00:31:33.255 --> 00:31:37.005 and just telling our coaches some things, but we don't get to maybe 00:31:37.005 --> 00:31:40.575 necessarily quote those later, or at least we don't have a system to do it. 00:31:41.115 --> 00:31:43.425 My son Elliot, he's eight now. 00:31:43.425 --> 00:31:45.985 So he's working on fractions, decimals, and percentages. 00:31:46.355 --> 00:31:48.585 He seems pretty good with fractions. 00:31:48.805 --> 00:31:50.405 I'm not a hundred percent sure with decimals. 00:31:50.405 --> 00:31:52.545 I see him working with percentages within the app. 00:31:52.565 --> 00:31:56.465 He seems to be kind of getting it, but like maybe not getting it quite as yet. 00:31:57.025 --> 00:31:59.865 And that's kind of the weird thing is that like, he doesn't want input 00:31:59.865 --> 00:32:02.715 from me, so I can't, help enrich him. 00:32:02.815 --> 00:32:06.550 I was thinking about getting him on the phone call with a coach because then that 00:32:06.550 --> 00:32:09.510 way they could work with him at that level or putting him in a kumon or something. 00:32:09.510 --> 00:32:12.340 So it's like hey Can you work with him at the fraction decimal percentage 00:32:12.340 --> 00:32:15.380 level, because they're doing in school what they're doing at the third grade 00:32:15.380 --> 00:32:17.310 level, and to be honest with you, 00:32:17.310 --> 00:32:21.500 I like both right like he could be doing theoretically both because it's almost 00:32:21.510 --> 00:32:27.830 the same idea and so that's kind of got what's going on with him , The three 00:32:27.830 --> 00:32:30.440 year old, uh, he's, he's not quite yet. 00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:32.500 His language is not quite yet. 00:32:32.500 --> 00:32:34.630 Still counting blocks as he should be really. 00:32:36.830 --> 00:32:37.410 Yeah. 00:32:37.580 --> 00:32:39.600 I guess he could be starting out. 00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:41.390 Uh, so maybe we'll get him started here. 00:32:41.390 --> 00:32:46.700 But he's, I, I think just base language, we're still with base language 'cause 00:32:46.700 --> 00:32:48.560 like sometimes it deteriorates. 00:32:49.510 --> 00:32:52.060 What I was gonna say is I'm sure that your children living in a 00:32:52.060 --> 00:32:56.550 house with you, a father who's a mathematics, professor and a scientist. 00:32:57.050 --> 00:32:59.660 I'm sure that your kids will be very good at mathematics. 00:32:59.660 --> 00:33:03.890 I just thank God that my husband's an engineer and therefore my children were 00:33:03.890 --> 00:33:08.810 good at mathematics because I was in the other end of the scale you know, I 00:33:08.810 --> 00:33:11.740 was the one who helped them with their English essays and their language. 00:33:11.740 --> 00:33:14.700 And then he came in and helped them with all their mathematics stuff. 00:33:14.710 --> 00:33:17.470 So it was a really good balance, but thank God for that. 00:33:17.490 --> 00:33:20.600 Because if it was just up to me, I don't know whether they would have been as 00:33:20.600 --> 00:33:22.680 proficient in mathematics as they are. 00:33:23.320 --> 00:33:27.900 So I'm sure that the fact that you are at the level that you are, that 00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:32.140 already really helps your children attain that mathematical thinking. 00:33:32.925 --> 00:33:34.665 It's just how it's going to be, you know, 00:33:35.715 --> 00:33:37.145 yeah, I know what you mean. 00:33:37.745 --> 00:33:40.405 Yeah, I think it's motivation for him. 00:33:40.555 --> 00:33:44.485 Uh, but like I said, he, sometimes he wants input from 00:33:44.485 --> 00:33:45.755 me and then things are okay. 00:33:45.795 --> 00:33:49.055 But like most of the time he's just like, leave me alone. 00:33:49.055 --> 00:33:52.135 Yeah, 00:33:52.135 --> 00:33:54.735 and often you hear parents will come and say, Oh no, they 00:33:54.735 --> 00:33:55.675 don't want me to do anything. 00:33:55.675 --> 00:33:58.825 But then they hear, you know, my teacher said this, and my teacher said 00:33:58.825 --> 00:34:00.495 that, my teacher said this and that. 00:34:00.815 --> 00:34:05.305 And so very often, they actually rate what the teacher says or 00:34:05.315 --> 00:34:08.715 their friends say more than what you say, but don't worry about it. 00:34:08.745 --> 00:34:12.325 When they get to about 23, 24, they understand that, Oh, 00:34:12.395 --> 00:34:13.505 isn't that what I told you? 00:34:13.515 --> 00:34:14.685 Oh, yes, you were right. 00:34:14.745 --> 00:34:15.455 So there you go. 00:34:16.435 --> 00:34:17.495 You've got some time. 00:34:17.515 --> 00:34:19.705 So, you know, you can marinate on that. 00:34:20.535 --> 00:34:24.385 It doesn't help that he asked me questions and then I try to describe atoms to him. 00:34:24.575 --> 00:34:25.875 He's like, well, how does this happen? 00:34:26.065 --> 00:34:27.795 First, you got to understand what an atom is. 00:34:28.485 --> 00:34:31.255 Okay, maybe just take a step back. 00:34:31.255 --> 00:34:34.925 The other thing that I have to say, which I think has been really important in the 00:34:34.925 --> 00:34:39.375 problem solving thing is that I remember when my sons were in high school, they'd 00:34:39.375 --> 00:34:42.605 come to my husband with a problem and he'd go, have you read the textbook? 00:34:43.340 --> 00:34:48.230 And they'd go, no, and then it's like, go away, read the textbook, and if 00:34:48.230 --> 00:34:51.960 you've still got a problem and you don't understand it after that, then come back. 00:34:52.290 --> 00:34:55.150 Because what they wanted him to do was just to solve the problem, right? 00:34:55.210 --> 00:34:58.070 And he always refused, as I have with many things. 00:34:58.070 --> 00:35:00.250 I said, no, you've got to solve the problem for yourself. 00:35:00.900 --> 00:35:02.680 And I think that's always been. 00:35:03.045 --> 00:35:05.725 certainly for my children, really powerful. 00:35:05.755 --> 00:35:07.485 And it's also the way I teach. 00:35:07.565 --> 00:35:09.705 I don't jump in and give kids answers. 00:35:10.265 --> 00:35:13.695 I push them to actually find the answers for themselves first. 00:35:13.695 --> 00:35:17.345 And of course, if you then see that they've messed it up, they don't have the 00:35:17.345 --> 00:35:20.885 understanding, that's when you go in and you guide them to find the right answer. 00:35:20.885 --> 00:35:22.755 But you don't just give them that answer. 00:35:22.755 --> 00:35:24.615 And I that's very much. 00:35:25.030 --> 00:35:28.870 Where that whole problem solving critical thinking comes in with mathematics. 00:35:29.620 --> 00:35:32.290 Adita, this has been a very enlightening conversation. 00:35:32.300 --> 00:35:36.670 Is there anything you would like to leave listeners with before we finish off? 00:35:37.070 --> 00:35:40.450 Before also telling people where they can find Elephant Learning 00:35:40.450 --> 00:35:42.170 and , how they can get a hold of you? 00:35:42.230 --> 00:35:42.650 Sure. 00:35:42.680 --> 00:35:43.180 Yeah. 00:35:43.510 --> 00:35:47.260 Well, if you look for Treating Math Anxiety, you'll find it on Amazon, , but 00:35:47.260 --> 00:35:48.590 you could also find it on our website. 00:35:48.590 --> 00:35:51.530 If you get it from our website, I'll end up signing it and sending it to you. 00:35:52.110 --> 00:35:56.300 Um, but I don't think we ship to Australia cause we're using US Post 00:35:56.300 --> 00:35:57.470 Office and it doesn't go there. 00:35:57.480 --> 00:35:58.040 That's okay. 00:35:58.050 --> 00:36:01.620 I'll put all the links, in the show notes and people can get it off Amazon. 00:36:01.620 --> 00:36:04.490 I'm sure Amazon will have it and 00:36:04.500 --> 00:36:06.460 they can just get it off there, which is perfect. 00:36:06.460 --> 00:36:09.260 And, if you want to check out the program, just go to elephantlearning. 00:36:09.260 --> 00:36:10.320 com, you can sign up there. 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:12.290 That's the best place to sign up. 00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:14.010 Amazing. 00:36:14.010 --> 00:36:17.430 So, again, I'll leave all links for anybody listening who's interested 00:36:17.430 --> 00:36:21.720 and I urge you to go and have a look at that because mathematics 00:36:21.720 --> 00:36:24.500 is a massive part of our lives. 00:36:24.530 --> 00:36:29.140 And even if you think about it, it's not just about the numbers, but it's about. 00:36:29.430 --> 00:36:33.390 a way of thinking and it's that problem solving mentality that I 00:36:33.400 --> 00:36:38.180 think you get from mathematics which I think more people need in this day 00:36:38.180 --> 00:36:40.420 and age, especially our politicians. 00:36:40.420 --> 00:36:44.420 So, , Aditya, I thank you today very, very much. 00:36:44.620 --> 00:36:46.990 for being on Blooming Curious. 00:36:46.990 --> 00:36:50.850 It's been a really illuminating and interesting chat and I hope that 00:36:50.850 --> 00:36:55.050 so many people take away nuggets, the absolute golden nuggets that 00:36:55.050 --> 00:36:59.780 you've given us today in terms of helping children with mathematics. 00:36:59.790 --> 00:37:01.090 So thank you so much. 00:37:02.040 --> 00:37:02.450 I appreciate it. 00:37:02.450 --> 00:37:03.440 Thank you for having me. 00:37:04.360 --> 00:37:07.540 So that was Aditya Nagarath of Elephant Learning. 00:37:07.640 --> 00:37:11.710 If you enjoyed today's episode, please can you do me a great big favor. 00:37:11.740 --> 00:37:15.690 Can you please click on that share button and send it to a friend or a 00:37:15.720 --> 00:37:19.770 colleague so that we can spread the news of Blooming Curious and so that 00:37:19.770 --> 00:37:22.570 we can all get more people listening. 00:37:22.890 --> 00:37:23.950 That would be awesome. 00:37:23.950 --> 00:37:24.990 Thank you so much. 00:37:25.400 --> 00:37:30.120 So until next week, I'll see you again, same time, same place. 00:37:30.250 --> 00:37:32.200 So stay Blooming Curious.