Today on Blooming Curious, we have a very special guest.
Veronica Green is an early childhood consultant and a
mum to a neurodivergent son.
She is the power behind Cultivating Confidence, an early years consultancy,
and is in the unique position to advise educators how to create inclusive early
years experiences and environments where children and adults can thrive.
So Veronica, we are so honoured to have you on Blooming Curious today.
So welcome.
Thank you.
I'm very excited to be here.
I'm very honored that you've reached out and I get to share and learn together with
your audience and community of educators.
So I'm super excited to be here.
Great.
Let's kick off with you telling us about yourself and how you came about
creating your early years consultancy and what led you to this work.
Oh, that's a great question.
So, um, I became an ECE in 2012, and I have worked with, uh, children from
infancy all the way to school age in a variety of different settings
from large centers, small centers.
Um, I was also an assistant director for a little while, and then I decided
to operate a family day home as well.
I wanted to still have my career, but I also wanted to be at home with our child.
So I, I, um, over three years, I curated and thrifted a lot of our resources.
And after we had our son, I opened up my day home and I did that
for a couple of years as well.
And so during that time, when I was running the day home is really when I
found myself as an educator, cause I went through all the turmoil and the journey
of learning that our son is autistic and going through the diagnosis journey and.
being an educator and a parent and all the behaviors that I did not understand
and being so overwhelmed with how am I going to support the children?
How am I going to support my son as well?
And I don't know what I'm doing.
And so it was a long journey.
And that's where I learned about sensory processing and loose
parts play and the Reggio Emilia approach all at the same time.
And this really changed my perspective as to how I see the
environment, how I view children, how I viewed my role and families.
And I slowly, through learning and lots of trial and error, I started to
create a very inclusive environment that worked for the people in my setting.
So the children, myself, and my families.
And throughout this time, I shared my journey.
On social media, and so I always shared all the provocations that I was setting up
and the why behind them when I was talking about our journey with our son as well.
And I've always been very open around that journey.
And so that seemed to resonate with people.
And so I started to build an audience on social media through sharing these daily
experiences that I had with the children and always my why behind my decisions.
And that's what led to slowly being asked to have people come,
wanted to come see my day home.
And then I got asked to start doing workshops.
And then I got asked.
to write a module for an online membership.
And I did it on sensory processing and used my whole journey with that.
And kind of just over time, I slowly got asked to do more
workshops and I love doing it.
And then I went full time into consulting because, um, it just works
what's worked best for our family.
Uh, running a day home was amazing, but it was really hard on my son, just having
even a few other families in our home.
And so we needed our home to be our home.
And I thought about running a small preschool program outside of the house,
but, um, it just wasn't really a viable option and so I went full time into
consulting and I've been doing that for the last six years and I am so
honored and I will Always be grateful that I get to inspire and support my
fellow educators on a global basis, whether it's online or in person, um,
through talking about my experiences with loose parts, pre play behavior,
sensory processing, and sharing that.
And, uh, that has just been an incredible journey that I've had over the last six
years doing that with the consulting.
Well, that sounds like a really, really amazing start, but.
Tell me, Veronica, you know, you used that word sensory processing and for
those that don't know it, could you perhaps just give a definition, so to
speak, or for you, your experience of what is sensory processing, essentially?
Yeah, so there's a lot of misconceptions about what that,
what people think that is.
Do I know, have I ever experienced this before?
And so, it's processing that, it determines whether or not.
it needs to pay attention to it, or if it needs to ignore it.
And if it needs to pay attention and elicit a response, then it has
to go, what does that response be?
And so that could be, for example, is your tactile sense, your skin, you place
your hand on a hot stove by accident.
It's an instant reaction to move that hand out of the way, right?
So that is your tactile, the heat sensors on your hands
feel that heat that's too hot.
Your brain is instantly making that.
Connection and going, Oh, I know what this is.
This is harmful.
It's going to hurt me.
I need to remove my hand from it, right?
Um, that's very, uh, very part of your reflexes too.
But it also could be like, another simple example I always say is when
you smell fresh cookies being baked.
So you're going to, your, your, uh, olfactory sense in your nose is going to
be like, there's a sensation coming in.
I smell this your brain is going to go.
Have I smelled this before?
Yes, I know what that is.
I recognize what that is.
And I'm going to elicit a response is probably going to
be I want to go eat the cookie.
Right?
So your body, everybody processes sensory Information 24 seven.
It is not just when we're playing with our hands in this
water tables or the sand tables.
It is everything 24 seven.
So even for example, like when we have our environments with the Children, if
we have anything we put on the walls, whether it's decoration or artwork or
anything, if we have it filled from baseboard to ceiling, Every child
has to take in all that information through their visual systems, and
their brain has to decide, should I pay attention to it, or should I ignore it?
And if you're not giving the eye a break, then they're going
to pay attention to it all.
And that's when we can create an overstimulating environment, because
they're constantly having to Go, no, I don't need to pay attention.
And it's very, it's done very subconsciously, right?
Like, it's not like we are aware of all of that, except if you are very sensitive,
it's going to create experiences for children that they won't be able to play.
They won't be able to engage in things because they are either so overstimulated
that their body doesn't feel safe.
One more thing I'm going to mention.
Is that it's really important to know that sensory systems so we have eight of them,
and I'm sure we'll dive into what those other eight those other three are sensory
systems develop, just like our learning domains, we don't come into the world
with our sensory systems already like.
Set in stone and ready to go.
So they are constantly developing, just like our language skills, our social
skills, our cognitive skills, right?
And if you think about it, if you are not feeling regulated and safe
in your own body from all of that sensory information coming in from the
environment, You are not going to be able to develop your language skills
and social skills, because you're not gonna be able to go into the block area
because it's too loud, too crowded, too much stuff going on, too bright.
And so if you don't feel safe in your body, that's part of that self
regulation, feeling safe in your body with all those internal sensations, then
you're not going to be able to go and, develop all of those other skills that
we know that children do through play.
So really, self regulation, sensory processing is so,
so important to learn about.
And I didn't know about any of it until out of survival, trying to understand
my son while I was running my day home.
I had to dive into that world and learn.
about all the different unique things that he was exhibiting that
I did not understand and all of the distressful behaviors as well and
what that meant and how I was able to make very simple accommodations in
the environment that worked for him and allowed me to support everybody.
And sensory processing is not just for children who are
overstimulated or understimulated.
This is beneficial for everybody because we all have these sensory
systems they all have to develop.
It's just some children need more support than others.
Okay.
Now I want to just say right up front here.
Is that as a teacher, I always have felt that I have never been equipped
to deal with, um, children with sensory overload or, , sensory sensitivities.
I don't feel that we've ever been taught to how to deal with these things in
our classrooms when we're still having to have all these other kids as well.
So.
I really want to learn all this stuff from you today and I, and
I know that there'll be people listening that are also desperate
for information and help with this.
So you said eight senses and to me that was already, what do you mean eight?
What are these other three?
Because I don't know about them.
So do you want to please expand on what these other three senses are and
how we as not just teachers, but as parents can also help these children.
For sure.
So I, I really, I, I'm going to answer that, but I also want to circle back
to the really important thing that you said that you are not, like, you
don't feel like you're equipped for it.
That is very true for most of us.
I wasn't equipped either.
The only reason I went down this path is out of survival for my son.
And the reason I say it that way is because there were so many
behaviors that I did not understand.
And what typically happens is we see these behaviors as a child being.
Bad, as I'm using air quotes right now, bad, or the parents aren't on board, or
they're just beyond our abilities to care.
And I went through a time where I went, well, I can't kick
my own son out of my program.
I have to figure it out.
I have to.
So that's where my educator as researcher mindset was really helpful and I dove
down plus a very supportive my own mother bringing up the idea of sensory a few
times and we can talk about the journey of accepting that there's something else
going on as well and what that looks like.
We're not equipped when we leave our, uh, academic careers, right.
And we come into the early years profession.
We are not taught about sensory pro.
If we are taught about sensory play, it's about hands in the
water table, and that is like
It's not even close to that.
But I wasn't equipped either, so I had to figure it out.
And using a lot of trial and error and learning.
That really and making making a tons of mistakes along the way,
because I had to figure it feel like does this going to work yes or no.
And then I would see.
And so I wanted to just say that I didn't really just, you know, I didn't magically
just have all this information in my head.
I wasn't equipped either.
I had to learn it as well.
So I'm trying to normalize that to be like, no, the early years profession is
not educated enough in sensory processing.
It's slowly changing, but it's not enough yet.
Okay, so the other three senses, we know the five senses, right?
Tactile, visual, aural, olfactory, what's the, I've forgotten the fifth one now.
I have to see it in my head.
Taste.
Oh, we said aural.
Thank you.
I said aural.
What's the other one I'm missing now?
Aural.
Audio.
There we go.
Audio, yes.
Auditory.
What is it?
Okay, so we know those five common ones.
There are three other ones.
They're big words, and they took me a few years to be able to say so eloquently now.
Okay, so the first one is proprioceptive.
So the proprioceptive sense is, uh, and I'm not an OT, so this is how I explain
it in, like, the most simplest form.
And I learned all of this from books that are written by OTs.
So Um, the proprioceptive sense is basically your body getting input in
your muscles and joints and that helps your body know where your limbs are
in space and, um, what I like to say is that's the example of heavy work.
So pushing and pulling, running and jumping, that constant heavy work.
We know that toddlers love to fill up a wheelbarrow.
put a bunch of rocks or whatever there is, and they're going to push it
around the backyard, or a box, they're going to things and drag it, right?
They love to do those kinds of things.
And for a lot of children, for most children, that kind of heavy work
is very calming in their bodies.
And I think we also have a misconception around sensory processing is that we
think self regulation is equal to calm.
Which calm is interpreted in society as no movement and quietness, but really calm
to me and being self regulated is being happy and able to handle the different
emotions that you're experiencing different and all those kinds of things.
That's what being calm is.
And so how do children get that?
They get it through heavy work as well.
So it could be more active play, but it's actually very regulating in their
bodies that helps them stay regulated.
They need more of that heavy input.
So some children could be seeking, which means they need more,
more, more, more, more, and some children can be more active.
Avoiding, which means those sensations are really uncomfortable for them.
Sometimes those sensations can cause pain as well.
And so they might avoid experiences like that because, um, just
that's how their sense works.
So the proprioceptive sense is getting impact into your muscles and joints.
So heavy work, pushing, pulling, jumping, things like that.
Then there's the vestibular sense, and this is very much
related to your inner ear.
So, uh, balance.
There's a term that, uh, is used called gravitational security.
So this is about you feeling safe in your body to be able to get up
and move about in your environment.
And so for some children, they might seek out this.
They love to spin, spin, spin, spin, spin, spin.
And that, so that again, that active play is actually for them calming.
So for example, maybe, oh, before I get to that.
The other thing with the vestibular sense is that you can be in
like that spiral rotational, uh, direction or more linear direction.
So back and forth or side to side is also engaging the vestibular sense.
What's really helpful way to understand is let's think about infants.
When we go to comfort infants, what do we do when they're crying?
We rock them in a linear direction back and forth.
We're engaging in that vestibular sense as well.
They might be getting some proprioceptive sense too from us carrying them.
They're getting that weight on their bodies and tactile sense as well, right?
Because their body's feeling the pressure of the senses.
And so when we engage in a linear direction for most people, because I
never want to say it's 100 percent, for most people and children
that's very calming for them.
So children will naturally try to seek out the things that they need
to stay regulated, but society perceives them as not socially
acceptable behaviors a lot of the time.
So here I'm going to go to my example.
Think about children getting ready for Um, going from circle time to lunchtime.
Typically, we send them to start, uh, getting their hands washed,
right, before they go sit down.
Now, some rooms, we try to stagger it, so there's no backlogs,
but what if a line appears?
A line comes, and there's a bunch of children waiting to wash their
hands, and you see a child spinning or jumping, spinning around in the line.
We see that as disruptive behavior sometimes, but in reality, it could
be that They are feeling uncomfortable or they're getting overstimulated by
having to be so close to these other kids, the anticipation of waiting for
their hands to get washed, or they're a little bit hangry because they're
hungry, waiting for lunch to come.
And so spinning is their way of actually calming themselves, but
it looks like it's And I'm using a lot of air quotes here, disruptive.
There's always a reason why behind the behavior.
There's always that reason.
So that's two out of the next three.
The last sense that most people haven't heard about is
called the interoceptive sense.
And so this is an internal sense where it's about You being able to understand
the different sensations inside your body when you are hungry, when you are thirsty,
when you need to use the bathroom.
Are you hot?
Are you cold?
Um, do you feel, do you feel pain or don't feel pain?
Some, some people feel pain more intensely than others.
Um, and again, I always like to say again, that these senses develop.
So this leads me to the whole.
The again, air quotes socially acceptable milestone of using the washroom by a
certain age and whether or not that is developmentally appropriate or not.
So there's sometimes there's programs that require children to be using
the toilets independently by the time that they're three or because
they and then they can't enter.
Right.
But this is not right.
This is a sense that has to develop and being able to understand what all of those
different sensations are inside of you is confusing example right as adults we've,
a lot of us have learned to understand the pain that we're feeling in our stomachs
if that's if you're hungry thirsty, or if you're hungry, or if you have gas pain,
or you need to go to the bathroom right those are all very different sensations,
and we've learned How to understand them, but children are developing these
things, and they might not have the words to be like, Oh, I feel bubbles.
No, I feel stabbing pain.
I feel cramps, right?
Like they don't under have those words, they're developing that.
But it doesn't mean they're not feeling those sensations.
So when we ask children to use the toilet by a certain age,
they may not recognize it.
what a full bladder feels like, or when it's only partially full,
or the sensation of when they need to have a bowel movement, right?
Like they might not understand what those sensations are, yet but yet we have these
rules where it's like, no, once they're three, they need to use the washroom
where they can't enter our programs.
Now, and I know that's not every program, but it is out there.
Or, uh, expectations of children.
You're three.
Why can't you do this yet?
Right?
So, it's like, they have to develop.
So, those are the three other senses as well, beyond the five.
Yeah, that just rang a lot of bells for me, I have to say.
So, I was just thinking back about my own teaching practice and children that
have been in my own teaching practice.
So when you were speaking about the heavy one, which is that the procept,
the proprioceptive, you know, for many teachers, and I remember having
a child and an OT came in to help me with a child and gave me all these, uh,
aids that could help things like the weighted blankets and stuff like that.
But now I was just thinking,
sometimes I guess those kids a weighted blanket can be a solution to help them,
but sometimes they really need to do heavy work in terms of maybe things
like push ups or, or carrying a heavy pile of books or something like that.
Right.
So I guess as a teacher or as a parent, you don't really know which one of those
is best suited to that kid, unless you actually have a go and see how they react.
Uh, once you've given them that, that task or, or that in, intervention to
see was this, is this how they respond?
Is this what they will respond better to?
So I guess as we were talking before recording, we're learning on the job.
So as much as I've always felt really like a fish out of water and
I think really, um, I always felt like I wasn't prepared well enough.
I always felt like.
Gosh, they're expecting me to be a specialist when really I'm just a
GP in this situation, you know, and I think I was really being hard on
myself because I felt so bad that I couldn't help these children, but
now I'm thinking, ah, it's just a matter of just trying trial and error.
You just try all these different things to see which one this child really, I
guess, resonates with or which one really helps, helps this child, because I guess
nobody really knows what is their stimulus until you can find something
that calms them down and when you say calms means that they're, they're happy
and they feel safe in that environment.
Is that correct?
Is what I'm saying right there?
Oh, you have hit the nail on the head.
You have got it.
So that is what makes behavior so challenging is that they are
Just as unique as the child.
If it was simple to be like, here's five steps to solve all
behaviors, we wouldn't have to take a bazillion hours of PD around it.
We, and you're, I don't, we're never going to eliminate behaviors.
That's never, that's never, that shouldn't be anybody's goal
because it's never going to happen.
It's about.
Understanding how is my environment impacting through these different senses
as well, plus my own mindset, right?
Mindset plays a big role around behaviors to my relationships with the children,
but that's what makes behavior so hard is because what works for one child.
might not work for the next child, and even within that child, what worked one
day might not work three months from now because they keep developing, so you
keep having to adapt your strategies.
So yes, this is very, very difficult.
However, though, what I will say is when you start to build this knowledge
around sensory processing, and I really want to reiterate that I did
not learn all of this in one night.
I started with one sense.
Because I had some observations from my son, and he was constantly
like, he was constantly rubbing his head on the floors of the doors
and the walls, so not a distressful behavior, but a unique behavior that
we were like, why is he doing this?
And it wasn't like once in a while, it was every day, multiple times a day.
And we're like, why is he doing this?
And my mom kept bringing up, um, sensory processing.
Um, and just quick caveat there, it took me 18 months to finally go,
okay, there's something going on.
I need to look into sensory processing and my mom is someone who I love and trust.
And that's someone who's being an ECE and a parent.
I still had a hard time accepting that there was something else
that I needed to look into.
We can talk about that more in depth, but, um.
So when I was learning about the tactile, his rubbing his head, I went,
oh, he's seeking out that tactile sensation on his head all the time.
I hadn't learned about the proprioceptive sense yet, because that's also
getting that impact too, right?
But I was thinking about this tactile sense, because even though we learn
information and compartmentalize, so we learn to learn information
through different senses, right?
There's eight senses, so we learn about each sense as we go.
But our senses are integrated.
So it's never just one sense that's impacting things.
It's about us trying to understand it through these compartmentalized views.
When I learned that this, he was seeking it out, plus he was constantly
touching and scratching things.
All the time.
And so my big aha moment was I learned about the tactile sense and I went,
oh, so he's not getting enough.
He needs more, more, more, more, more.
And I went, okay.
So I DIY'd a sensory pathway where I taped down a piece of felt.
I taped down, I think some bubble wrap, and I taped down, I think some
old DVDs and a couple other things.
I just.
painter's tape and taped it to the floor.
That's all I did.
Like these little squares, right?
A little pathway, a little walkway.
This was around 18 months.
My son, I was on a weekend, so it was just me and my son.
The day home wasn't open at that time.
But he was on that sensory pathway for about 5 to 10 minutes
at a time, every 20 minutes.
That's how often he was on there.
He would be bear walking.
He would be walk and he was always barefoot.
So he'd be bear walking, uh, walking, crawling, running, and he'd be rubbing
his head as well or just touching it.
We had the most calm day that we've ever had because that's how much
tactile input and Now that I know it's also proprioceptive, but that's how
much he needed to feel calm and safe.
And so my environment was not giving that to him because he, he was seeking it out
through the only way I could keep him calm was through giving lots of massages,
lots of back rubs, lots of leg rubs.
And I'm like, well, I can't do this.
I can't sit here and give him a massage every 10 minutes.
That's what I had to do.
I'm like, this isn't working.
So I was like, how am I going to.
do what I promised the families and these children and I'm sitting here and I say
in our quotes again managing this behavior that didn't work so that was very eye
opening as to like how much he actually needed and he was seeking it out and
again it wasn't a distressful behavior.
It was what they would call a quirky behavior, right?
Like something quirky, something different.
People would think it's weird.
But I went, why is he doing this?
And so I put more sensory pathways, DIY'd them in my day home environment,
so he could access it where he needed, and the other children used
it too, and he was able to get it.
that tactile input that he needed.
He loved having just aluminum foil.
He loved a big piece of aluminum foil.
And I know it's not environmentally friendly,
but it can be recycled.
That's okay.
Yeah.
And he gave it was had that coolness as well.
So cause the aluminum foil has that coolness to it.
It's got a cool visual thing.
It's got a nice sound to it.
Like he just loved lying on it.
And he didn't like to wear socks or pants or things like that.
And he was a toddler.
He was 18 months when I started my day home.
So, um, but he needed all of that tactile input.
And so, yeah.
So the only way I learned that was from diving into books
and through trial and error.
I had no idea what was going to happen when I put that little sensory
path out, but I was curious, right?
Curiosity is not just for children.
Behaviors are a curious moment.
That's what they really are.
They're supposed to spark our curiosity.
and go, hmm, why is the child doing this?
Is the environment impacting it?
Is it my mindset?
Is it something that I don't know about?
And it's okay to be like, why wasn't I taught this in college?
Why wasn't I taught about this topic?
Because it's so eye opening.
And so just through trial and error, and over years, Because
I learned each sense at a time.
I really did that.
And I had to integrate my information, lots of mistakes along the way, because
he'll tell you if it's working or not.
You'll try something.
If it doesn't, if he doesn't even gravitate to it or want to touch
it, or it doesn't calm him down, that's his way of communicating
that this strategy isn't working.
And so then I'd have to try something else.
Um, but a lot of research and trial and error.
Okay.
And, and, and really, um, we as the adults and as the teachers, which is really why
this podcast is called Blooming Curious.
And that is exactly what you've just said.
We are the ones that need to be curious.
We have to be curious about what's happening.
How can I do better?
How can I change this?
How can I get through to this kid?
How can I get this kid to be curious?
How can I get this kid to be calm or whatever it is, right?
I want to just touch on something that you, you actually mentioned it
before, and that was the environment.
Um, So we've got children sitting in classrooms, 20, 25, 32 kids
sitting in classrooms, and all of them have different needs.
And then within that classroom, you will have now specific children.
And increasingly so, that have, uh, increased sensory needs.
And you spoke about the environment and how that really influences us and how
that can trigger us, it can calm us down, it can make us more anxious or whatever.
I want to know from you, as an expert in this field, if you had to give teachers
inspiration and you had to give them advice on how they would set
up a room to be able to cater for children, especially with sensory
needs, what would you consider?
Basics like what must teachers have or not have I'm thinking more it's
the not haves in their classrooms to accommodate if you were thinking
this is how you set up a classroom so that you can actually accommodate
all children with specifically those children with increased sensory needs.
Well, that's a big question.
So I guess for me it's less is more.
Yeah, there's some design principles that we can think about as well.
Um, I always like to take a very holistic approach to things, and I truly, truly
believe that the most important thing before you change anything in your
environment, you have to look at your own mindset around behaviors, because
if you have a view that children are doing this, Instead of having a hard
time, nothing you do in your environment is going to really, it's not going
to be as beneficial as it could be.
So if you believe that children are giving you a hard time, instead
of having a hard time, that's the first thing that we need to look at.
And I learned a lot from Dr. Ross Green, who's the author of, um, The
Children are, uh, The Explosive Child.
He's also done a documentary called The Children We Lose.
It's very, it's a, he's, he's, he also runs an organization
called Lives in the Balance.
All of his information is free on his website.
It's wonderful.
But he always starts with mindset as, as well, and going, if we have a
view that kids do well if they wanna, That us as educators, we show up
in those situations very different.
Our motive is to make them want to do better.
So that's where like rewards, punishments, all that kind of stuff comes into place.
But when we have a mindset around that kids do well if they can,
we show up very differently.
We're going to go, what's getting in their way?
What is the roadblock to this?
Is it sensory?
Is it the strategy that I'm using?
Is it my expectations of this particular child?
Is it a learning develop a domain skill that they are struggling with?
That's that curiosity.
So I always like to use four different lenses to try and view behaviors
through to guide my thinking because It can be really hard to deal with
these, to understand these behaviors.
I don't like to use the word deal.
That's not the word I choose.
Understand the behaviors to keep moving you forward.
So the four lenses that I always go through is safety.
Does the child feel safe in the environment?
That's through the relationships.
You know, beyond just a roof over their heads and food in their belly.
What's the relationship like with this child and the family as well?
Is it sensory related?
Are they seeking or avoiding within those different senses?
And then as well, those expectations is another lens.
Do I have the view that children do well if they can?
Dr. Ross Green talks about that, uh, behaviors are really unsolved problems.
And when we have that curiosity mindset, we can really dive into the why behind it.
And then the other lens I view behaviors through is, is this part
of a learning skill, like a domain?
Is it a language difference?
Is it a social skill that they need support with?
Like that's, that's how I guide my thinking because I don't know
exactly what, and it's probably a little bit within all of that.
It's never just one particular thing that's causing, that's
creating the behavior.
It's probably a multifaceted.
faceted thing because human beings are multifaceted, right?
Yeah.
Children are amazing human beings.
They have these full experience of lives.
And as much as adults are told to leave our stuff at the door, children do not.
So if they are experiencing food insecurities, if they are watching their
parents have fights at the end of the day, or families are struggling, who is not
struggling right now to pay for groceries?
It's a global thing, right?
Like it's insane.
So children are going to bring those things into the environment.
So it's not just sensory.
Sensory is one lens to view things through.
So I know I kind of went off on a tangent here, but before you
change the environment, you need to think about your mindset.
Do you have the right mindset?
Because that impacts the kind of strategies that you're
going to use with children.
So that's why I really wanted to mention that.
Then if you move, if you have the view of kids do well, if they can.
And I'm going to get to the why behind it.
Then if you look at the environment, you can use those different eight
senses to go, well, am I providing enough tactile, uh, stimulation?
Are there different textures through pillows, through
fabrics that they can access?
Um, What about, uh, like paint?
Are they, can they paint on their body?
Some children love to do that.
It's okay to get, in air quotes again, messy.
Like, can they experience those things holistically, beyond just their hands?
Um, visually, do I have, what do I have on the walls?
Why is it on the walls?
Does it need to be there?
Because that is providing visual stimulation.
Again, their brains have to decide whether or not to pay attention to it.
So if our walls are filled with pre done posters and not just their
art, because it's wonderful to have their art on the walls, how
much documentation do we have up?
Why is it there?
because that's going to impact their ability to focus on their
play if they're too overstimulated.
The auditory, how loud is the environment?
Can I have quieter spaces further away from louder spaces, right?
Like usually the block and the drama area are loud, dynamic spaces.
Do I have a quiet space available for children to go
and get reprieve in their day?
As adults, what do we do as ECEs?
Where do we go to get reprieve in the day?
We're going to be honest here.
We go to the bathroom.
We go to the bathroom so we can have some peace and quiet and get out
of the room for two minutes, right?
It happens all the time because we're looking for a little like, oh,
we're just a little overstimulated.
Where do children get to do that in our rooms?
They need that too.
And some children need it more.
Um, What else, uh, what else other senses are there?
They're like oral, right?
Snacks.
Uh, we talk a lot about sensory safe foods.
Can we provide foods that we know that they're going to eat?
Because you can't just make a kid eat a new food.
They're not gonna just eat because they're hungry.
That does not work when you are Very sensitive to those particular
textures that can make you gag, that can make you vomit.
And we have to remember, sensory processing is not
just some uncomfortableness.
It can cause pain.
So, an example, when I learned about it, Your auditory part of your brain is right
next to your pain receptors in your brain.
So that's why, so if you ever experienced really loud noises and it's very painful
in your ears, that's because those parts of the brain are very close together.
Another thing is with the visual thing with lights.
Let's talk about lights.
How bright those fluorescent lights are, can we have more natural light?
Can we have dimmers?
Can we have some of the fluorescent lights on and some of them off?
Can we take some of those bulbs out?
Let's just take them out.
We don't even need, do we need them?
Cause those are very hard.
They're very harsh on our eyes and they can be overstimulating.
And when you think about that, if you've got all your walls full of stuff,
you've got all the fluorescent lights on, you've got all these loud areas.
You don't, uh, so much stimulation, right?
And for a lot of children, that's going to be too much, and they're going to
walk in with their hands over their ears.
They might be crying more.
They might be like refusing to go to a certain area.
They're like, nope, I don't want to go there.
I don't want to do that.
I don't want to wash my hands.
I don't want to wear That smock.
I don't want, that's all a tactile experience, right?
So it's analyzing our environment through the sensory systems when learning
about the avoiding and the seeking.
And so we can talk about some really great resources that are out there to
help guide you as you're learning about this because There is a lot of information
and so you need resources to help you.
One of the books that really, there was two books that really helped me.
One was called, um, The Out of Sync Child written by Dr. Carol Kranowitz.
It's a much more technical book but it is a good book.
So it's not the easiest read, but it is a good book.
The other book that I highly recommend for educators and parents,
it's called Sensory Processing 101.
And it goes through all of, they have, they have seven sentences in there.
I don't know why they didn't do their interoceptive sense.
But seven senses are in there and they have perspectives from educators and
they have perspectives from parents, tons of hands of ideas, and they
go through each sense individually.
So that would be a great tool to use to like, analyze your
environments through that, right?
And it helps you understand some of the behaviors that you might be seeing.
And as I mentioned before, behaviors are not only distressful behaviors.
Behaviors can be running, jumping, avoiding, um, withdrawing.
Some of that can also be.
You know, or even like the ones that my son was doing, right?
Like the constant rubbing of his head or the constant touching
of things, things that we might just think are quirky behaviors.
Behaviors to me are like actions.
Veronica, this is such a huge, huge, huge area.
I think we need to have you on the podcast every week or every month
or something just to, because I just feel, gosh, there's just so much to
know and so much to learn that, um,
it's almost.
Gosh, I mean, you know,
as you were talking, I was actually starting to feel overwhelmed.
I know.
I'm sorry.
I don't want to do that.
Absolutely not.
And I also thought of the environments that I've gone into, the individual
classrooms that I've gone into.
Um, where I have felt, look, I, not that I know of, I mean, who knows,
I think we're all on a spectrum somewhere, but I go into some spaces
and I think I got to get out of here.
It is just too much for me.
It's just too much going on.
There's too much noise.
There's too much stuff on the walls.
I feel overwhelmed.
So you can just imagine what kids must be feeling, you know, and I think as
educators, I loved how you've said, We really have to think why and I
particularly took me back to a moment where I had a very, uh, a specific child
with really high needs and I didn't even know what the hell I was doing.
Okay, I really didn't, but I did realize that this child needed his own space.
And so I created a little nook under a table.
I put a net over, I put different types of cushions.
And I remember there's this one kind of cushion that has the sequence on and
you can move it in different directions.
And kids love that thing.
And also play things that they can squeeze with their hands and little fairy lights.
And it was just like a little safe space, a quiet space in a corner where
he could go if he felt that he needed to.
And so thank God, at least I knew that one little thing, but there's.
There's so much for teachers and, and parents to realize with, with children.
And of course, it wasn't just him that needed that space.
Very often during the day, other children would go into that too,
because things became too much for them, you know, being with friends
all the time, or, uh, whatever was going on, they needed that reprieve.
as well.
So I think as educators, it's so important to ask ourselves, and I've
done blog posts on that, you know, how to set up environments in your
classroom because you want them to be,
you know, I have to be careful because you want to say stimulating because
we've always thought that we need to stimulate our thinking, stimulate our
minds, but actually what you want to do is provoke curiosity, but at the
same time, your environment, I guess.
also has to enhance calm and feelings of calmness slash happiness in children.
So this is a massive learning area because as I said in the
beginning, we are not as teachers taught how to handle these things.
We learn on the job.
So, and thank you so much for Thank you so much for recommending these
books, which I will get from you to get the specific details so I can put
them in the show notes for people.
But we spoke about in the beginning, you said about parents that even
for you, it took you 18 months to accept that something was going on.
And I know that in a classroom environment, we often as educators
will see some things not quite what we consider, I guess, Average
and you would then say to parents, look, something's going on.
Have you considered this?
Have you considered that?
And parents, you know, and it even sometimes things just like dyslexia
or reading or language issues, you know, and very often as a parent, we
all want to believe, I guess, that our children don't have issues, right?
We all want to believe that our kids are fine.
So sometimes it takes a lot for a parent to accept, I guess, that they need
intervention, some kind of intervention.
What advice do you have for educators and how we can help parents to get to
that point, but also for parents, you yourself as a parent and an educator,
you're in such a unique position.
What advice do you have with respect to seeing those behaviors and
realizing that your kid needs help?
Yeah, so
Again, all I can do is speak from my experience, but what I always
like to say first is we have to meet parents where they're at.
It's a journey, and so we have to consider what contributes to the
ability to accept mindset, education, um, there are cultural aspects.
As well.
Many cultures see neurodivergence as something that is not, it's not accepted.
So there's many different things that we have, we can't just have the mindset
around, again, if we have the mindset that parents do well if they can.
Then we show up differently for it with them and I have the same thing
with educators educators do well if they can as well if you don't have the
knowledge, then you're gonna you're gonna I messages and redirection are
only going to get you so far, right?
But you're going to keep doing that because that's all you know, so I truly
believe that parents do well if they can.
So if they have new knowledge, then that might change change their perspectives.
So for myself.
My experience, I was in ECE for years before I had my son.
Mm. And I naively thought that because I was an ECE being a parent
would be a little bit easier.
my son really changed that for me.
, um, children and whether he's neurotypical or not, completely different guy, you
become a completely, it's very different.
Yep.
It's very different when it's your own child.
Yeah.
And so, um, so I had some, I already had knowledge and experience, right?
And even at seven weeks old, my mom, who I love and trust, I am
very, very close with my mom.
We actually moved back to Winnipeg to be closer to my parents.
And my mom is an early childhood music educator.
She has worked with children her entire life as well.
And this is someone who I love and trust.
And at seven weeks, when I came to visit, she was like, You know, I wonder if
there's something sensory because she had learned about this new perspective, and
she goes, it should be easier to calm him.
It should be a little bit easier to settle him.
And I was like, No, I think it's just because I'm a new mom.
I think it's because I just, I'm overwhelmed.
And I don't know what I'm doing.
And I was she just she just let it go.
She was like, Okay, And then over the course of like, I don't know how
many more months I'd be calling her in tears at home going, mom is this,
and I use these words then I wouldn't use them now, but is this normal, mom?
Is this what's supposed to be happening?
And she'd be like, no, sweetheart, this is not a typical experience.
He should be easier to settle.
It shouldn't be this difficult.
And then she gently brought up again, I think there might be something sensory.
So we as educators do not use those.
official labels of autism, ADHD, nothing like that.
That is not our jobs.
We can talk about sensory needs.
We can talk about, um, simple accommodations that are required for
their child to stay self regulated.
I think that's okay, but we are never to bring up The word autism or
ADHD, unless maybe the parent does.
And even then, I agree, that depends on my relationship
with the child with the family.
But so she brought it up again.
And I was like, No, I don't think so.
This is probably around six months.
Again, she brought it up around 12 months.
And I was like, No, I don't think so.
I was just doubting my own abilities or thinking it was going to get better,
you know, and then around 18 months, I was running my day home and it was just
over that we were, we had to go into early intervention program because he
wasn't walking or talking enough yet.
And I was running in the day home and I was in tears and sweating like crazy just
to get my kid in a new diaper and a pair of shoes to go out the door for summer.
And I went, I have been a practicum student getting
15 toddlers into snow pants.
And that was a breeze compared to this and I was like, it shouldn't be this hard.
It shouldn't be this hard.
And that's when I went, I think there's something else going on.
So I saved my story because we cannot expect to talk with parents at the
end of the day when they're coming to pick up their kid and they're busy and
bring up something super important.
One time.
and think that they're going to be on board.
As well as those conversations, how those conversations go starts from the tour
of your center, even your website, where they're starting to check things out.
How do you talk about, how do you handle, how do you understand behaviors?
I don't like those words, handle and dealing and managing.
I don't like those words.
Understand behaviors.
How is your tour going?
What's the relationship that you are building with
families right from the moment?
Are you telling them how awesome their kid is every day?
Or you only speak to speaking to them because they're biting or hitting
or running or not listening, right?
Is that if that's the only time you're ever talking to those families, when
you need to go and have a conversation about here's some observations,
we see some sensory things or these particular things going on.
Have you ever seen that happen at home?
What are you experiencing?
How do you create that safe environment for families to open up and share their
toughest, darkest moments with you about how they didn't handle those situations
well as parents and try not to feel judged sitting across the table from an
early childhood educator and director because that's what they're going to feel?
And so then how can we create that safe environment for them to say, yes, my
child does have 45 minute meltdowns.
Yeah.
multiple times a day and I have no idea what to do.
So I just hand him a screen all the time because that's what I had to do.
But not every environment is safe.
So how do we build those relationships with these families so that if that
conversation does have to come, it's a very different dynamic.
You cannot expect to start having conversations with families like,
uh, if you've only ever talked to them about tough things.
Hold on, uh, something's happened.
I can't hear you suddenly.
Hang on.
I'm, I'm, are we good?
I'm still showing that I have sound.
No, it's me.
Something's happened to my, um, earphones.
I can't, it just went off.
It's just, it's not picking up my earphones.
That's okay.
We'll just carry on and I'll just put it through the Mac speakers.
Can you hear me okay still?
Yeah, yeah, I can.
Can you hear me?
Yeah, I can hear you, but through the computer something's just switched off.
Hang on.
Sorry about this.
Don't be sorry, text has happened.
Let's have a look.
It just switched off.
Can you hear me?
Bloody hell.
Am
I back?
See, this is why I don't like technology.
Oh, Mickey Mouses.
Okay.
It's probably just Gonna sound different.
Doesn't matter.
Let's just carry on.
It's still recording anyway.
We'll just carry on.
Um, I didn't hear the last few things you said.
What was that?
Uh, I was talking about how, um,
how, how important it is to build.
Your relationships with the families right from the get go that you
can't expect to have these kinds of conversations with them without
doing all the work beforehand.
And we have to meet them where they're at, right?
And so it took me 18 months with some knowledge and experience and from someone
who I love and trust for my entire life.
So us as educators, how long has that family been in your program?
A couple weeks?
Months?
Years?
Right?
Like, this is someone who I've known my entire life.
It's my mom, so, and I still took 18 months to get off the fence.
Some families are going to be more open to it.
Some may never get there by the time that they're in your care.
However, though, the child needs help.
The child still needs support.
Whether If they choose to listen and when they are ready to listen and to get a
referral or whatever that looks like, we still have to remember that that journey
of getting a referral and going to see the pediatrician, never mind, we could talk
about my experience with the pediatrician and if they believe you, and even though
I had all this paperwork from OTs and PTs and child psychologists and, and so, um,
It's quite a journey to wait, to get on a wait list, to get an assessment, and
then you're waiting for that appointment.
The child and the family still need support during that.
So, this is why I said earlier, like, I had to figure it out.
When I started all the behaviors, I was not thinking about autism.
I was thinking about how can I understand these behaviors.
I did not understand them and sensory processing was a different
lens that opened up my perspective.
It was through us being in the early intervention program, as I just
mentioned, we had speech pathologists come, we had an OT, we had a child
psychologist come, um, and so through those conversations and having a child
development supervisor or a person come to my house once a month, um, that's
when we started to explore the idea.
of him being autistic.
But I didn't start there.
I started with these behaviors that I don't understand.
And my mom never said autism.
She only ever brought up the idea of sensory, because we're
all, we all have sensory.
Now some people might get, that might even be a triggering word because sensory
things are definitely talked a lot more about children around neurodivergent
people, as we've now learned.
Everybody has these sensory systems, we all have little things
that we like, that we prefer.
We are all, we all have different sensory preferences, but some people need more
or less and more or less support with it.
Yeah.
That's basically what it is.
That's what we can focus on.
Okay.
Veronica, before I really do think that I, we need to have another episode
because there's just, this is such a massive field and I really believe
that we as educators and parents really need all the help we can get.
So I'd love to have you back on.
But before we go, can you give some help to teachers and how they balance
the needs of sensory sensitive or neurodivergent children with the rest of
the classroom so that All students can be engaged without feeling overwhelmed.
Is there advice that you can leave teachers with in how to, to handle
all these children simultaneously?
What, what advice would you give us?
Yeah, that's a great question because it is hard.
So I always like to take a very holistic view to things.
First and foremost, you need to take care of yourself as an educator.
You need to be able to stay self regulated as well.
If you are not regulated, you're not going to be able to show up in those
moments and lean into your values, lean into the kind of educator that you
want to be if you are not regulated.
So taking care of yourself is very important.
Um, the next thing would be, is that mindset piece, right?
Making sure that I'm viewing children as that they are having a hard
time and not giving me a hard time.
Um, looking at your environment, And how is it providing stimulation?
Is it too much?
Too little?
What simple adaptations can I, can I do?
I did not spend a ton of money.
I really DIY'd a lot of it.
I slowly invested in some pieces that did work.
Um, but I did not spend a lot of money at first.
Knowledge really is power.
It really is.
Um, there was one other thing I wanted to do.
It all popped into my head.
Um, so the environment.
Oh, there was one more thing.
Oh, the other thing.
Very, very important.
It is not favoring a child to provide.
the resources that they need to develop.
Oftentimes we think when we're in group care, whatever that size looks
like, is that if we're doing it for one, we need to do it for everybody.
That is not true.
Individual needs are how the world goes, right?
We don't want to be generalizing, we don't want to make assumptions because
that leads to biases and not proper care.
When we view children as individuals and we provide what
they specifically need to develop.
Like example, would we give, we're not going to give everybody a wheelchair,
but we're going to give the child that needs a wheelchair, a wheelchair.
So it's not favoring giving them the resources that they need to develop.
My son was not developing his language skills, his social skills, his cognitive
skills, because he was so dysregulated.
He was not able to go and play because he felt so unsafe in his body.
Your sensory nook that you were describing, I did that for my son as well.
And that was his safe Place the other children respected it.
They knew they could go and play there, but they also respected that that was his
space if he needed to be alone as well.
And so it's not favoring when I'm creating an environment that suits the
needs of the people that are in it.
And when I did that, when he had his safe place and the things that he needed.
it freed up my time and to stop managing behaviors and go and be able to actually
support and facilitate the play for all children, because my environment
and my mindset started to work together instead of against me, which is really
leaves me in that dealing and managing aspect instead of supporting and
facilitating how I can put my mindset, the environment to all working together.
And that's when we slowly started to find our way is when I was able to make
simple accommodations and not seeing it as favoring because it was my son.
Sometimes I get asked that.
I'm like, I'm not favoring.
I'm providing what he needed.
And I would do that for any other child.
Thank you very much.
That is really good advice.
And I love what you just said about mindset and I think that is really
important and that's the one thing that perhaps sometimes holds us back is that
some of us don't stop and just have those thoughts and ask those questions
as to why and what should I be providing.
I love that.
Veronica, I am definitely hopefully with your, uh, if you agreed, getting
you back, uh, to speak more about this topic, but I'd love you to just
tell people where can they get hold of you and how do you help them on your
website, just give them all those details and, and, and what do you provide for
educators in the, in terms of help?
Yeah, so I have an extensive website.
It's at cultivatingconfidence.
ca. So there's a blog with lots of information, more on sensory processing,
behaviors, even connected to sensory processing and like planning and things
like that, because it benefits everybody.
Um, I have lots of free resources on my website as well.
I have like a free guide around behaviors that talks about those four different
lenses that I was talking about.
So I'm all about providing.
Uh, supportive tools and training for ECEs so that they can.
Feel confident in what they're doing and use a childhood approach and
know who they are as educators and feel inspired and supported to keep
growing in their own practice as well.
And I also love talking about Loose Parts Play, so you'll find
lots of stuff on my website.
But there's also connections between loose parts play and sensory processing.
So, so yeah, so there's lots of stuff there.
I said, there's a website has lots, and then you can find me on social media
as well on Instagram and Facebook, uh, cultivating confidence as well.
And I'll leave all the links in the show notes so everybody
can get hold of you there.
Veronica, thank you so much for being on Blooming Curious today.
It's been an amazing journey to learn more about how we as educators and parents can.
Understand.
I had to be careful about that word that I was going to use.
It can understand children with different needs.
So thank you so much for sharing with us.
So thank you so much for sharing this with all of us today.
I really appreciate it.
And I'm sure that many readers appreciate you talking about this as well.
Did I just say readers?
And I'm sure many listeners would appreciate you talking about this as well.
So thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
You're so welcome.
I am going to stop recording now.