WEBVTT

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Today, I am very honored to be
welcoming International Education

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Consultant and Learning Strategist
Tonya Gilchrist to the podcast.

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Tonya specializes in helping schools
around the world amplify inquiry

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and honor agency for deep learning
and transfer across languages,

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literacies and disciplines.

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Tonya works with schools to tailor
professional learning Just for their

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specific contexts and their unique needs.

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Tonya has enjoyed many years
as an educator, instructional

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coach, and curriculum specialist.

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Tonya, it's such an honor and a pleasure
to welcome you today to Blooming Curious.

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Oh yeah, thank you.

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I'm so happy to be here.

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I've really been looking forward to our
conversation so thanks for having me.

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Oh, probably not as much as I've
been looking forward to having you.

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Listen, you're such a massive
advocate for inquiry based learning.

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What sparked your passion for inquiry?

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That is a wonderful question.

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You know, I think for sure, you know, if
we go back to just early life as a child,

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definitely, I think I've always been
a curious kind of person, so to speak.

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So I loved learning.

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I loved I was one of those students
that loved school, loved to

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learn new things, loved growing.

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So that I think natural curiosity and
inquiry in that sense was always there.

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I've always been a big reader.

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And of course, there's so much
you learn through story in the

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world of books and imagination.

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So that was always living there.

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And though I think that as an educator,
really, , I guess two big things

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that sparked Inquiry for me in the
educational lens would be just my

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foundations  as an educator in university.

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So I was blessed to have a
wonderful academic advisor and

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in the courses I took with her

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she really advocated for
what we often call workshop

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framework or studio framework.

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So this idea that  the bulk of your
time is spent with children and living

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the learning, you know, out there
really living it not just being talked

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to about it, and that you that are
coaching one on one meeting with small

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groups like learning that just while in
university then became that that was just

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how you teach.

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Like I didn't know a different way
and I'm really grateful for that, that

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it was of course going to be a really
inquiry rich approach to teaching.

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So I carried that with me.

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And then I think, um, the other big
thing that kind of really ignited

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the passion further would be sort
of unfortunate, but ended up being

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fortunate, is that,  I started off
my career in the US and at the time,

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, things were really becoming incredibly

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big big test focused
like standardized test.

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Yes.

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, and as a teacher  in the classroom,
you know, really teaching with inquiry

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rich workshop approaches, you know,
relationships first, , to have it all

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just become sort of this mindless march
through,  published curriculum that

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every teacher needed to be doing the
exact same thing in the exact same way.

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All for the sake of a standardized
test at the end of the year,

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it was like soul crushing.

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Um, and that's what actually moved me into
the international teaching realm is I was

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literally Googling like what else can I
do because I can't, I can't keep doing

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this like it doesn't align with my values.

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So I think that having seen what so
doesn't work and what isn't helpful.

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For children and for learners is what has
made me all the more passionate about.

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We have to, we have to advocate
for inquiry and agency and self

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regulation and critical thinking.

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Like, that's what it's really about, you
know, not to let school or learning just

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become about standardized tests, you know,
or playing the game of school, , but

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instead really being about real learning.

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So you've worked now internationally for
many years with international schools, and

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you said,  you moved because you wanted to
move away from this whole,  testing base,

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so do you find that the international
schools don't have such a heavy reliance

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on testing or how are they different?

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Well, definitely when I first moved
overseas, , definitely there wasn't that

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big reliance or over reliance, I would
say, because of course it's not that, you

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know, I think in an ideal world, I think
standardized tests could have their place.

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Like, I do think for equity and access,
we want to ensure that  all students

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are learning certain things that
we're not,  failing students, so to

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speak, that we know all third graders
had access to learning these things

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about the world, like, that's great.

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It's just when it becomes this over
reliance  on just this one assessment

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and making it the be all end all.

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So I think when I first
moved overseas for sure.

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International schools at that
time are quite different.

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And for me, it was exactly
what I needed at the time.

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It was like this breath of fresh
air and reinvigoration that you

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could be, you could have agency
as a, as an educator again.

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You could be creative and,  yes, you
still had your standards, the what that

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you needed to teach, but how you taught
it, there was more flexibility there.

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I can say, you know, to speak
candidly, though, that I do feel that,

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unfortunately, it does feel like more
and more international schools right

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now are becoming more of what the U. S.
was 10 years ago and are focusing more

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on standardized tests and are making
that kind of the be all end all and you

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know, and my heart, the part of my soul
and heart are like, No, don't like of

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all the things to emulate that's not it.

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I think to see that, most
students in the US are not it.

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Um, and it's not like we're
outperforming other places in

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the world or something like that.

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So it's like, why do you
want to emulate that system?

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It's not working.

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It's not actually helping learners grow.

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And we end up with a lot of young
adults , who haven't developed their

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critical thinking skills because,
and at no fault of their own, they

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weren't given the opportunity, you
know, and they're not curious and

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they're not like lifelong learners and
communicators and all these things.

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It is unfortunate, but I have seen a
shift, I'd say, in the past, probably

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past six ish years of more and more
and more push towards standardization,

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kind of more push towards so many
things that don't work, um, rather

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than emulating the things that do work.

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So it is, it does tend to
be region based, though.

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It's certainly not all international
schools, but in certain regions of the

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world, that's been a big, a big shift.

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That's interesting.

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So, inquiry often, I guess, disrupts,
right, traditional teaching methods.

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It's something that people feel uneasy
about but for you, what assumptions do

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you think teaching and learning that
educators do that they need to unlearn

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because  they have this thing in their
heads that inquiry doesn't quite cut it,

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that if, if they're going to do inquiry,
well, I hate that whole thing about do

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inquiry because you don't actually do
inquiry, but if they're going to become

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inquiry based learning practitioners

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something else is going to give they
feel perhaps that kids are going to lose

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out on stuff because they also I think
very often feel that it means they have

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to give up on explicit instruction.

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So there's this assumption that they have.

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So what would you say to schools
and administrators and teachers,

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how do they unlearn this?

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So that they can make the shift
to be, I guess, is what you've

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just described, which is actually
so much better because we've seen

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that the alternative isn't working.

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Exactly.

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Um, yeah, I think.

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You know, there are so many misconceptions
about inquiry based learning and

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teaching and you just unpacked, I
think, the biggest ones there of that

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there's no explicit
teaching inside inquiry.

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That's simply not at all true.

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In fact, so much of of inquiry based
learning is about being intentional, like

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intentional design, intentional teaching.

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There's a beautiful quote lifted up
from a research study from several years

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ago now that says,  in an inquiry, an
inquiry based learning, explicit teaching

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occurs just in time, not just in case.

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And I love that.

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I, when I'm working with schools and
teams, like we kind of lean on that as

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almost like a mantra and all that we do.

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We're like, are we being
just in time or just in case?

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Because too often what we have to unlearn,
so to speak, you know, going back to your

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question is, is the being just in case.

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Like a lot of times as teachers, we feel
like, well, I better say one more thing,

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just in case I better like show them
how to do this, just in case I better

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like do this for them, just in case.

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And instead, like first letting them
go off and give it a go,  trust them

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to try set up the kind of culture
in your classroom where they're

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going to be figuring out kind
of people will often say, and so

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they'll go and they'll get to have some
productive struggle and healthy challenge.

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And so much more learning comes from that
than just someone else doing it for you.

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Right?

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So I think that that big idea of just in
time, not just in case, however, if you

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see that a child has no idea what to do,
you also don't know what you don't know.

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So, , there's also another great quote we
lean on a lot that, uh, as an old proverb

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that says  you don't teach ducks how to
swim by throwing eggs in the water, right?

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So we're also, we're not throwing
eggs in the water, right?

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Like it's this beautiful
intentional equilibrium of

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just in time, not just in case.

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So you do explicitly teach.

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Of course, you have an important role as
a teacher and as an activator of learning.

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But it's that, you know, you know, that
when you explicitly teach, you know,

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you're doing it with intention that
you're like, they, they need, this is

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a skill or or a strategy or, or an idea
that they'll need to use again and again.

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I'm going to model this for them
or teach them this, show them this.

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And then you let them then, of course,
most importantly, apply it, right?

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Then they'll need to take whatever you
did explicitly teach and actually get

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to still give it a go and be a figuring
out kind of person and all those things

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that it's not just you talking at them.

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Um, so I think that's, that's that shift
and kind of with that, I guess would be.

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Sometimes helping teachers and coaches,
coordinators, whoever it might be,

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think about how they've really learned.

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I find that often helps create a shift.

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It's like, when have you
really learned something?

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How did you know you really learned it?

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And if you have them take a few minutes
to reflect and even talk together about

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that, they realize, Oh, all the things
that they say they really know how to

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do, whether it's, you know, surfing or
baking or reading, writing, whatever

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they're like, I had to actually do it.

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And I had to make some
mistakes and I had to reflect.

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And it's like, that's, that's inquiry.

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Like you had to ask questions,
you know, like that's.

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That's the process.

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So I think those big pieces of
asking and doing and thinking or

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inquiry, action, reflection, like
that's just how we learn anything.

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Like if I want to learn how to do a
handstand, I'm going to be looking

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up like YouTube videos, reading books
about it or what have you, tutorials.

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I'm going to inquire, then I'm
going to have to actually try it.

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And do it and mistakes and have
reflective practice to get better

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and better to own the skill.

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So you have to like live it.

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And I think, helping, helping teachers
and, and educators remember that,

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Oh yeah, anything I truly learn,

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I had to live it.

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Um, I guess it's, there's a difference
between covering and learning.

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And so that's the other big reminder
is we'll often talk about how learning

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doesn't happen outside of the learner.

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So you can feel like you're covering
a lot, , Oh, I covered this, we

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covered this, we covered this.

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And that can feel, I guess, safer
or feel like I know I covered it.

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And so that's big learning.

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But actually if they might have
learned anything, you know, like you

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covered it, but they didn't learn it
because you get to actually live it.

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Um, so yeah, I think a lot of that  and
as you said so well earlier that then

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they'll actually be able to do more.

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I know  sometimes I'm giving parent
workshops as well when I'm visiting

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schools and just recently I was at a
school  in Asia and, um, we had a parent

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workshop on inquiry rich mathematics and
really helping parents see, you know,

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it's not about rote memorization and
doing like math facts as fast as you can.

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It's more about understanding the
concepts of mathematics and  and being

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able to have that productive struggle
and strategic thinking and like we

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care way more about the thinking than
the answer and a parent came up at the

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end and was like, Oh, this was great.

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And it's definitely what
I want for my child.

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And she said, but you know, I still
have to say, though, I am worried,

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though, like, the reality is they have
to take these tests and exams for like

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university and like, what about the test?

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And I was like, well, but if they
do the kinds of problems we just

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looked at together, because parents
got to actually explore some of

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the  students would do by math games,
they would play things like that.

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It's like if they, if they were doing
this instead, they'd get to that problem

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on the test and it would be like no sweat
for them because the problem on the big

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assessment is just like kind of a rope,
they don't even have to think in the

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way that they had to think this whole
year in math, you know, so they'll get

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that to that assessment and be more than
capable to do that kind of thinking.

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And, you know, that really
struck a chord with the parent.

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They're like, oh, yeah, of course, like,
I haven't thought about it in that way.

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Which is exactly kind of what
you were saying that it, no,

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you're not losing anything.

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Kids are still going to get that knowledge
they need, the content knowledge, the

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background knowledge, the skill knowledge,
it's that we're not going to stop there.

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You know, they're going to get more than
that, uh, with all the thinking skills

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they'll develop and the mindset and just
the approach to learning the stance to

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learning that they'll develop just as
a person, you know, as a human being.

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So.

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I love how you said that,  we all
learn by experience and by doing it.

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Cause I've often said to people,
think back about your own learning.

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You can't remember a thing you learned
at school, except the things, well, I

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do anyway, I only remember the things
that I, that were hands on, I remember

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the things I did where I actually
physically got involved and made

00:14:59.450 --> 00:15:01.700
something or was working on something

00:15:02.210 --> 00:15:03.930
physically using my hands.

00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:06.370
I don't remember anything else.

00:15:07.130 --> 00:15:08.540
No, I know.

00:15:08.590 --> 00:15:08.960
Yeah.

00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:14.250
You know, so and then the other, the
side of the coin is that if we know

00:15:14.680 --> 00:15:20.790
what works and what didn't work for
our own schooling,  you can't replicate

00:15:20.810 --> 00:15:24.545
for others what you didn't enjoy
or what didn't work for yourself.

00:15:25.215 --> 00:15:29.115
And I think,  we've grown up with a
system,  and then we get to stand in front

00:15:29.115 --> 00:15:34.055
of the class and then we try and replicate
the way we were taught, but it didn't

00:15:34.495 --> 00:15:36.925
work, you know, and we didn't enjoy it.

00:15:36.985 --> 00:15:42.245
And, , we had no agency and
we don't remember anything.

00:15:42.595 --> 00:15:48.665
So , I do think that we need
to reflect on that and Is what

00:15:48.665 --> 00:15:50.295
I'm doing really valuable?

00:15:50.355 --> 00:15:52.475
Is what I'm doing really working?

00:15:53.035 --> 00:15:55.815
Are children genuinely learning?

00:15:55.845 --> 00:15:58.925
Because it's interesting, the other
day I saw a quote somewhere that

00:15:58.925 --> 00:16:02.055
said, just because children are
engaged doesn't mean they're learning.

00:16:03.085 --> 00:16:06.455
So that kind of, I think, they were
talking about just because , you can

00:16:06.455 --> 00:16:10.945
see a child sitting at a desk filling
in a worksheet or being quiet, or

00:16:10.945 --> 00:16:12.185
they look as if they're working,

00:16:12.515 --> 00:16:14.215
doesn't actually mean
that they're learning.

00:16:14.225 --> 00:16:19.205
And that really struck a chord with me
too, because how often don't children

00:16:19.205 --> 00:16:23.685
just go through the motions perhaps,
but at the end of the day, and we all

00:16:23.705 --> 00:16:27.915
did that,   when you come to, to your
university exams and stuff, you know,

00:16:27.915 --> 00:16:30.165
you're cramming, cramming, cramming,
and you're learning and you're.

00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:36.330
And then a day later, you don't even
remember anything about the exam or

00:16:36.330 --> 00:16:39.890
what you learned, so I think that's,
and it's very often because you didn't

00:16:39.900 --> 00:16:45.010
get that hands on experience, , to
try it out and practice the skill.

00:16:45.690 --> 00:16:47.210
So that's very true.

00:16:47.850 --> 00:16:52.350
Tonya, there's another thing that
I want to ask you is that  another

00:16:52.350 --> 00:16:57.680
traditional teaching strategy is this
thing about teaching in silos where many

00:16:57.680 --> 00:17:03.140
educators all over schools are still
very much teaching separate subjects.

00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:06.050
So,  they might have a literacy
block, they might have a mathematics

00:17:06.050 --> 00:17:09.460
block, they might have then a
block for science and a block for

00:17:09.460 --> 00:17:11.430
humanities, whatever it might be.

00:17:12.120 --> 00:17:15.830
And children don't really
see the connection.

00:17:16.145 --> 00:17:19.185
between subjects or the connection
that they can make in their

00:17:19.185 --> 00:17:21.125
learning to something else.

00:17:21.345 --> 00:17:26.075
It's that whole application,  part of
the equation that sort of falls flat.

00:17:26.915 --> 00:17:32.095
In your work that you've done in all
these years, how have you helped teachers

00:17:32.095 --> 00:17:38.415
to identify meaningful connections
that they can make between subjects so

00:17:38.415 --> 00:17:44.555
that they can design cross curricular
activities that break apart those silos

00:17:45.620 --> 00:17:48.630
where children can actually
see the connection to other

00:17:48.660 --> 00:17:51.179
areas of their learning?

00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:56.950
Yeah, I think,  there's several ways
, as with many things and as an inquiry

00:17:56.960 --> 00:17:58.820
folks,  we know there's not one way.

00:17:58.820 --> 00:18:02.230
So there's actually a few different
ways we often look at for this idea

00:18:02.250 --> 00:18:08.320
of,  authentic transdisciplinary, um,
learning or interdisciplinary learning.

00:18:09.020 --> 00:18:12.740
Because for sure, what we all
have seen is either what you just

00:18:12.740 --> 00:18:17.480
mentioned, like silos, and there's
no connections at all, or especially

00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:21.360
a lot of international schools, what
they've experienced is, okay, we're

00:18:21.360 --> 00:18:25.490
making connections, but they're like
forced and fake, and they feel like,

00:18:25.490 --> 00:18:28.990
well, those even the connections we
try to make,  aren't actually working.

00:18:29.320 --> 00:18:32.720
So I think,  kind of two big things
that help with both of those.

00:18:32.740 --> 00:18:36.090
One, one is, um, are we designing
things that are really what

00:18:36.090 --> 00:18:37.650
we would call concept based?

00:18:38.010 --> 00:18:41.570
Like truly concept based,
not just topic based.

00:18:41.810 --> 00:18:43.910
And again, it doesn't mean
you're getting rid of anything.

00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:46.530
You're still going to explore
the topics you need to explore.

00:18:46.540 --> 00:18:50.010
Like, let's say you need to explore
certain time periods in history.

00:18:50.435 --> 00:18:54.645
Or, you know, a certain part of
science, like force and motion or

00:18:54.645 --> 00:18:59.385
light and sound or something, um,
you need to teach that content.

00:18:59.395 --> 00:19:01.545
Like kids need to know
things about the world.

00:19:01.545 --> 00:19:03.135
Those are wonderful things to know about.

00:19:03.135 --> 00:19:04.685
So that's not going anywhere.

00:19:05.175 --> 00:19:09.785
However, can you like put an
umbrella or lens over that?

00:19:09.785 --> 00:19:11.165
That is truly conceptual.

00:19:11.315 --> 00:19:16.760
So big concepts like patterns,
perspective, systems, function.

00:19:17.130 --> 00:19:20.610
If you truly make it about the
concept, then children can make

00:19:20.860 --> 00:19:22.850
connections all across their day.

00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:27.380
And it's more about I'm learning
about patterns in the world, not I'm

00:19:27.380 --> 00:19:30.240
learning just only about habitats

00:19:30.710 --> 00:19:31.310
or something.

00:19:31.700 --> 00:19:36.090
So for example,  I was working
with, , a team that was,  in

00:19:36.090 --> 00:19:39.080
their system, third grade, that
would probably be like year three.

00:19:39.300 --> 00:19:43.270
I think also system or year
four, , and they had a lot of

00:19:43.270 --> 00:19:44.720
science standards around weather.

00:19:45.070 --> 00:19:48.220
So initially they had this whole
weather unit they had designed.

00:19:48.460 --> 00:19:53.990
And it was about how we look for patterns
inside weather to like make predictions,

00:19:54.200 --> 00:19:56.010
but it was still like all about weather.

00:19:57.210 --> 00:20:01.740
So instead we just said, well, what if we
just took the word weather out of our like

00:20:01.740 --> 00:20:03.920
central idea or big idea for the unit?

00:20:04.120 --> 00:20:07.940
Kids are still going to need to learn
about weather, but what if your big idea

00:20:07.940 --> 00:20:12.300
was just that people look for patterns
to form theories and make predictions

00:20:12.630 --> 00:20:17.710
because if we make it the pattern unit
instead now, , art can be involved.

00:20:18.010 --> 00:20:21.060
Physical education can be involved
because like patterns are everywhere,

00:20:21.120 --> 00:20:26.110
you know, maybe in looking at patterns
don't know different team games and the

00:20:26.110 --> 00:20:30.180
patterns you make and play or the patterns
you make to form decisions together.

00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:32.910
You can see, or maybe it's a
dance unit,  just depends on

00:20:32.910 --> 00:20:34.300
what's happening at that school.

00:20:34.300 --> 00:20:40.335
But and then in art, there's patterns
in, different art, uh, everywhere styles,

00:20:40.395 --> 00:20:42.915
different mediums, all sorts of things.

00:20:42.915 --> 00:20:46.305
There's, and then in math, you could
still be learning about your addition

00:20:46.305 --> 00:20:50.295
facts or multiplication facts and noticing
the patterns within, , something, times,

00:20:50.295 --> 00:20:52.065
something is always an even number.

00:20:52.095 --> 00:20:52.995
Like, what does that mean?

00:20:52.995 --> 00:20:53.205
You know?

00:20:53.205 --> 00:20:56.745
So then all across their day, and
so we even designed this little

00:20:56.745 --> 00:21:00.315
for kids to do some assessment as
learning, like some self-assessment.

00:21:00.315 --> 00:21:04.405
They had their own little sort of
checklist, so to speak of the big ideas

00:21:04.405 --> 00:21:09.325
about patterns like I can find patterns
and use them to make predictions and they

00:21:09.325 --> 00:21:11.915
saw how they started collecting evidence.

00:21:11.925 --> 00:21:15.335
The children themselves of, you know,
and math, here's a place where I noticed

00:21:15.335 --> 00:21:19.075
a pattern and it helped me form a theory
or prediction and reading, here's  I made

00:21:19.075 --> 00:21:23.985
a theory about a character and, P. E. I
made like, we, we noticed a pattern here.

00:21:24.435 --> 00:21:27.095
And that's, they were realizing
that what they were learning

00:21:27.095 --> 00:21:28.945
was all conceptually connected.

00:21:29.395 --> 00:21:33.005
And that was way more powerful than
something like if we'd kept it just

00:21:33.005 --> 00:21:38.145
about the topic, weather then, PE
teachers are trying to  have kids, I

00:21:38.145 --> 00:21:42.745
don't know, build like a human snowflake
or, music teachers are like, sing a

00:21:42.745 --> 00:21:44.635
song about the seasons or something.

00:21:45.035 --> 00:21:48.005
That's not really
transdisciplinary learning.

00:21:48.005 --> 00:21:51.185
You're not going between,
across, and beyond the

00:21:51.185 --> 00:21:52.935
disciplines, as we'll often say.

00:21:52.935 --> 00:21:57.685
Instead, you've just made a science unit,
if the unit's only about weather, it's

00:21:57.705 --> 00:21:59.825
really not, you know, transdisciplinary.

00:21:59.825 --> 00:22:03.255
It's a subject specific unit,
which has its place too, but it

00:22:03.255 --> 00:22:04.665
could be a missed opportunity.

00:22:04.665 --> 00:22:06.845
So I think that's a big one.

00:22:07.350 --> 00:22:09.130
, Are units truly conceptual?

00:22:09.140 --> 00:22:13.020
Have we helped  design for
truly conceptual connections?

00:22:13.080 --> 00:22:16.680
And then children are just living
that conceptual understanding across

00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:18.210
their day, across their weeks.

00:22:18.780 --> 00:22:22.180
And then the other big thing would
be how all disciplines, like if

00:22:22.180 --> 00:22:26.090
you think reading, writing, math,
can be a vehicle for inquiry.

00:22:26.540 --> 00:22:29.530
So the other big way that we often
make connections is to think,

00:22:29.540 --> 00:22:33.700
whatever we're studying,  how
will we use this as a vehicle?

00:22:34.040 --> 00:22:39.040
Uh, literacy is a great example for this,
definitely not the only example, but,  if

00:22:39.090 --> 00:22:43.460
when you are studying something that's
more science or social studies focused, do

00:22:43.460 --> 00:22:47.960
you have the children actually digging in
and reading about it and writing about it?

00:22:48.300 --> 00:22:51.850
Because too often what we do is we
do all the thinking for them, right?

00:22:51.850 --> 00:22:54.200
We take the, okay, we're
learning about habitats.

00:22:54.210 --> 00:22:58.710
I'm going to make like some Google
slides about habitats, bring kids

00:22:58.710 --> 00:23:02.880
together to the carpet, show them these
important bullet points about habitats.

00:23:03.710 --> 00:23:06.540
Like, well, then you just did
all the thinking for them.

00:23:06.550 --> 00:23:11.539
Like, why not give them an age appropriate
article to read about habitats?

00:23:11.540 --> 00:23:13.030
So they have to do the thinking.

00:23:13.040 --> 00:23:14.760
They have to do the digesting.

00:23:15.050 --> 00:23:18.370
They have to do the figuring out,
and make sure it's interactive.

00:23:18.380 --> 00:23:19.290
They're discussing it.

00:23:19.300 --> 00:23:22.720
They're, like you said, they're not
just engaged by staring at the paper.

00:23:22.730 --> 00:23:24.530
You know, they're going to
make their thinking visible.

00:23:24.550 --> 00:23:27.960
They're going to discuss and collaborate
with others, but actually have them

00:23:27.970 --> 00:23:30.000
dig into the content where then.

00:23:30.605 --> 00:23:35.885
You're doing reading and writing and
speaking and listening and science

00:23:35.885 --> 00:23:39.105
or social science or what have you
all at the same time because you're

00:23:39.115 --> 00:23:41.555
using it as a vehicle for inquiry.

00:23:41.555 --> 00:23:42.865
That's really fabulous.

00:23:43.345 --> 00:23:46.775
Tonya, the other thing that I
notice a lot of teachers ask is

00:23:46.775 --> 00:23:51.445
that with inquiry, they'll say,
Oh, but the kids are so interested.

00:23:51.445 --> 00:23:55.445
And when we talk about being agentic,
they say, well, how do I honor

00:23:55.445 --> 00:24:04.465
children's personal interests when
they have their own concepts or,  units

00:24:04.465 --> 00:24:08.485
of inquiry or their own curriculum,
whatever that is to get through.

00:24:08.985 --> 00:24:12.085
And then you have a child coming in
and they have their own interests.

00:24:12.085 --> 00:24:16.225
So very often they find it difficult, I
think, to balance what they need to cover

00:24:16.405 --> 00:24:21.215
or what they need to do in a classroom
situation with children's own interests.

00:24:21.700 --> 00:24:27.140
Do you have any advice for those moments
of how we can honor children's own

00:24:27.170 --> 00:24:31.490
interests and at the same time,  continue
with whatever it is that we're doing

00:24:31.510 --> 00:24:33.670
to meet our standards and outcomes?

00:24:34.840 --> 00:24:35.880
Yeah, definitely.

00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:38.000
I think,  there's a lot packed into that.

00:24:38.010 --> 00:24:40.800
So a few things would be
kind of like with inquiry.

00:24:40.800 --> 00:24:44.960
There's lots of misconceptions
about agency too,  so it doesn't

00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:46.670
mean just do whatever you want.

00:24:46.890 --> 00:24:51.000
I mean, society would be kind of terrible
if we all just did whatever we wanted.

00:24:51.010 --> 00:24:51.360
Right.

00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:56.205
So,  I often lift up a quote from Edward
D. C. who spent, like, his life's work

00:24:56.205 --> 00:25:01.395
studying self motivation and autonomy and
agency, and I'm paraphrasing here, but

00:25:01.395 --> 00:25:06.905
he talks about how true autonomy is about
relatedness, like, true autonomy is about

00:25:06.905 --> 00:25:11.545
considering others and the environment,
and so I think,   for for many schools,

00:25:11.545 --> 00:25:16.875
we we use a common definition for agency,
definitely IB schools, for example, use

00:25:16.885 --> 00:25:19.445
the definition voice choice ownership.

00:25:19.445 --> 00:25:25.815
And I think that's a great concise way
to define agency voice choice ownership.

00:25:26.235 --> 00:25:29.995
However, I think a lot of times the
ownership piece gets overlooked.

00:25:30.355 --> 00:25:35.425
And make no mistake, like
choice and voice are are key.

00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:40.970
And choice is like the gateway to
really helping children exercise their

00:25:40.970 --> 00:25:44.890
agency, when we have choice that's
motivating, but it's almost like

00:25:44.890 --> 00:25:48.790
that's the low hanging fruit, don't
want to think like, oh, I let kids

00:25:49.120 --> 00:25:51.020
choose what paper type they use today.

00:25:51.020 --> 00:25:54.920
So like agency done or something,
you know, like a checklist instead.

00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:55.730
It's like, that's great.

00:25:55.730 --> 00:25:56.880
Yeah, give them that choice.

00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:01.380
That's a good starting place, but going
beyond that, like the ownership piece

00:26:01.380 --> 00:26:05.580
of our children actually,  exercising
their self regulation skills.

00:26:05.580 --> 00:26:08.480
Are they setting their own
goals, monitoring their goals?

00:26:08.775 --> 00:26:13.045
You know, self assessing, self
adjusting, like that's true agency.

00:26:13.215 --> 00:26:18.075
Are they considering their environment and
the context and making sound decisions?

00:26:18.085 --> 00:26:22.855
So we'll often talk about how agency
is actually when you're strong in both

00:26:22.935 --> 00:26:25.425
sound judgment and confident action.

00:26:26.005 --> 00:26:29.115
That you're not stuck in the zone of
like learned helplessness where you

00:26:29.115 --> 00:26:32.865
just do, you just wait for someone
else to do it for you, you know, like.

00:26:33.090 --> 00:26:37.920
You can take confident action, but it's
confident action with sound judgment.

00:26:38.370 --> 00:26:41.230
So children, like with anything,
like any skill, once again,

00:26:41.230 --> 00:26:42.400
they need to live it, right?

00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:46.310
They need to practice making decisions
and actually make some mistakes so that

00:26:46.380 --> 00:26:48.090
they become stronger decision makers.

00:26:48.100 --> 00:26:52.670
So one thing would be that just
honoring agency in general, you know,

00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:57.780
are you making space in your days
and your weeks for kids to get time

00:26:58.380 --> 00:27:02.100
to make their own decisions and make
mistakes and learn from that and self

00:27:02.100 --> 00:27:06.140
assess and self adjust because that's
where a lot of the true agency grows.

00:27:06.310 --> 00:27:09.200
You know, that's what we want
for them for life, that confident

00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:10.780
action with sound judgment.

00:27:11.950 --> 00:27:14.960
And then with all of that in mind,
then thinking, okay, so yes, of course,

00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:18.540
you have certain standards that by the
end of the year, children need to have

00:27:18.540 --> 00:27:21.260
experienced that content, that learning.

00:27:21.820 --> 00:27:25.905
So knowing that your inquiry can
at times have a scope, right, but

00:27:25.905 --> 00:27:29.925
there's still so much opportunity
for agency within that scope.

00:27:30.285 --> 00:27:38.305
So one go to kind of practical lens, so to
speak, is for teachers to think about what

00:27:38.305 --> 00:27:43.815
Waltham call the five W's and an H, like
who, what, when, where, why, how, and that

00:27:43.885 --> 00:27:49.775
you always have the opportunity to give
children agency and all of those things.

00:27:50.065 --> 00:27:53.015
And so certain times of
year, it will be open scope.

00:27:53.025 --> 00:27:54.365
They get to choose all those things.

00:27:54.365 --> 00:27:55.385
Who are they working with?

00:27:55.385 --> 00:27:56.265
What are they learning?

00:27:56.635 --> 00:27:59.475
How, how, you know, where
will they set all of that?

00:28:00.625 --> 00:28:04.475
But at other times, it's maybe
you're choosing three of those and

00:28:04.475 --> 00:28:05.815
children are choosing the others.

00:28:05.815 --> 00:28:09.295
You know, maybe the what has already
been determined because of certain core

00:28:09.295 --> 00:28:11.225
standards that you're exploring right now.

00:28:11.625 --> 00:28:15.315
But children get to choose where they
sit in the room, they get to choose how.

00:28:15.730 --> 00:28:19.860
Like, the, how of how they're going to
create or showcase their learning, you

00:28:19.860 --> 00:28:24.850
know, what they're going to show,  that
that's the agency lives inside there, too.

00:28:25.220 --> 00:28:27.470
. And that's where, with many
schools, we work on what's called

00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:29.350
universal design for learning.

00:28:29.630 --> 00:28:34.520
So, this idea, UDL, would be that
there's multiple means of engagement

00:28:34.540 --> 00:28:36.590
and multiple means of representation.

00:28:36.600 --> 00:28:42.680
So again, you might all be exploring,
um,  migration, let's say, and that's

00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:45.920
something you want children to learn
about and know about, but that they

00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:50.345
have lots of choice and,  how they
will express what they learned.

00:28:50.795 --> 00:28:54.605
That's a big one for a lot of teachers to
kind of open up space for is that, yeah,

00:28:54.605 --> 00:28:59.045
your standard says this, but do children
have to just show that they learned that

00:28:59.045 --> 00:29:04.595
by taking this one test or doing this
one paper or, you know, not conflating.

00:29:05.025 --> 00:29:08.755
We often talk about don't conflate
like the goal with the means.

00:29:08.885 --> 00:29:12.515
The goal is they show understanding of
this and this and this about migration,

00:29:12.525 --> 00:29:15.915
let's say, but there's so many different
ways they can show that they look.

00:29:16.355 --> 00:29:18.195
So do you open up space for that?

00:29:18.295 --> 00:29:21.235
Even if yes, at the end of the
day,  they need to, and we want

00:29:21.235 --> 00:29:22.565
them to learn this standard.

00:29:22.575 --> 00:29:26.495
So I think just thinking of the
scope,  also within, kind of the when

00:29:26.595 --> 00:29:30.325
sometimes opens up choice for agency
of what students are interested in,

00:29:30.325 --> 00:29:34.525
like, in mathematics, we're often
talking about adaptive math provocations

00:29:34.525 --> 00:29:39.055
or adaptive math stations, but by
the end of, like, two weeks, every

00:29:39.055 --> 00:29:41.575
child has done every provocation.

00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:46.660
But they chose when to do it, and that
might sound simple, but actually that's a

00:29:46.660 --> 00:29:51.170
big piece of like knowing, okay, these are
core things I need to learn, but I have

00:29:51.170 --> 00:29:54.920
some agency and like, what I feel like
doing when, which one I want to do first.

00:29:54.920 --> 00:29:59.060
Like, that's actually not a small thing,
you know, that's, that's agency building.

00:29:59.070 --> 00:30:01.510
So starting where you're at and thinking.

00:30:02.085 --> 00:30:06.295
Where can I open up more space for agency
because it's living up there, but that

00:30:06.295 --> 00:30:09.845
it doesn't have to mean do whatever you
want, or maybe you're doing a book club

00:30:09.855 --> 00:30:14.025
unit can children have a choice, okay,
there's these six books to choose from.

00:30:15.765 --> 00:30:17.985
Go around to a gallery walk of all six.

00:30:18.565 --> 00:30:22.115
Make a list of your top three, you
will get one of your top three, you

00:30:22.115 --> 00:30:26.035
know, and then that way you as a
teacher can consider their social needs

00:30:26.075 --> 00:30:29.955
or academic needs when forming book
club groups, but you're also going to

00:30:29.955 --> 00:30:33.005
make sure they get one of their top
choices that they're interested in.

00:30:33.005 --> 00:30:37.855
So I think just not feel like it has
to be just a do whatever you want chaos

00:30:37.895 --> 00:30:41.765
like agency actually involves a lot of
intentional design if we really want to

00:30:41.765 --> 00:30:44.625
help kids exercise their decision making.

00:30:44.625 --> 00:30:48.265
So, I think, , those are a lot of the
big pieces,  and just kind of thinking

00:30:48.265 --> 00:30:52.535
through them again that the biggest
piece of agency would be if I look across

00:30:52.535 --> 00:30:58.145
the unit where children actually self
assessing self monitoring self regulating.

00:30:58.550 --> 00:31:03.600
That it's not us helicoptering at
all, or doing it for them, but letting

00:31:03.940 --> 00:31:05.640
them actually be the decision makers.

00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:08.770
And I think just a final thing to say,
though, because I know a lot of teachers

00:31:08.770 --> 00:31:11.520
I work with, and it sounds like going
back to your initial question, this

00:31:11.520 --> 00:31:15.920
is something you've, you know, heard
a lot too, is though, is when children

00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:21.570
are, of course, curious about something
totally different than our standards.

00:31:22.025 --> 00:31:26.635
You know, just there's go to tried
and true, , kind of tools that

00:31:26.635 --> 00:31:30.885
you can use, like having a sort of
Wonderwall or parking lot, so to speak.

00:31:30.885 --> 00:31:34.125
We're like, okay, they have, oh,
that is such a juicy question.

00:31:34.195 --> 00:31:35.625
Add that to our Wonderwall.

00:31:35.965 --> 00:31:39.625
And then maybe you just save
some space,  like once a week.

00:31:39.880 --> 00:31:43.590
Even once every two weeks if your
schedule is really tight or you have a

00:31:43.590 --> 00:31:47.350
chunk of time where then we're going to
go back to our wonder wall and choose

00:31:47.550 --> 00:31:50.640
one of each child choosing one of the
biggest things they want to take some

00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:55.920
time to explore and you've maybe even
helped activate that by curating a few

00:31:55.980 --> 00:32:01.080
possibilities of, you know, books they
can look at, um, things they can research,

00:32:01.100 --> 00:32:03.300
but that it doesn't have to mean.

00:32:04.015 --> 00:32:08.485
That in that moment when they ask that
question, you're going to derail all the

00:32:08.485 --> 00:32:13.035
learning for the whole class community
and study this other thing for 45 minutes,

00:32:13.035 --> 00:32:15.825
like some teachers are like, Oh, no,
the child asked this beautiful question.

00:32:15.825 --> 00:32:21.250
We have to right now do that instead
when really that's not equitable for

00:32:21.250 --> 00:32:25.590
the community because you know all the
other second graders need to learn some

00:32:25.590 --> 00:32:29.750
other things right now, but having a
kind of a ritual and routine where you

00:32:29.750 --> 00:32:31.800
can still make space for that question.

00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:35.810
And if they put their name and their
wonder on the Wonderwall, you can even be.

00:32:36.625 --> 00:32:41.275
A real kind of activator for them and
then going to the librarian and asking

00:32:41.275 --> 00:32:45.275
do you have  some books around this and
just giving that child those things to

00:32:45.275 --> 00:32:48.995
look at that in their independent reading
time, they can explore that more,  in

00:32:48.995 --> 00:32:53.135
their independent writing time if you're
doing an information unit, kind of what

00:32:53.135 --> 00:32:57.555
we talked about before the The W's and
an H, like you might need to teach what

00:32:57.555 --> 00:33:01.435
information writers do, but they can
write about any topic they want, like

00:33:01.435 --> 00:33:03.005
the skills of an information writer.

00:33:04.165 --> 00:33:07.075
Every child does not need to write about
the same thing,  and I would say they

00:33:07.085 --> 00:33:10.345
shouldn't be, you know, instead let
them write about whatever they want.

00:33:10.365 --> 00:33:14.035
So that would be a chance for them to
explore some of the things from the

00:33:14.035 --> 00:33:17.225
Wonderwall that they really want to
learn about and teach others about,

00:33:17.365 --> 00:33:18.995
you know, so just opening up space.

00:33:19.425 --> 00:33:19.755
Yeah.

00:33:20.785 --> 00:33:23.185
That's really good
practical advice, Tonya.

00:33:23.335 --> 00:33:26.745
And it really reminded me so
much of, my time in a classroom.

00:33:27.585 --> 00:33:29.815
And those are the kinds of
things that I was doing.

00:33:29.815 --> 00:33:35.295
And I just got that feeling back, it was
just so, joyful to be in a room like that.

00:33:36.005 --> 00:33:40.085
, I remembered with the,  year twos,
we have this change, uh, topic

00:33:40.085 --> 00:33:41.595
in science growth and change.

00:33:41.615 --> 00:33:46.965
And generally, you see the whole class
does the life cycle of the frog or

00:33:46.965 --> 00:33:50.765
whatever it might be, and I just think,
oh my gosh, that's just so boring.

00:33:51.745 --> 00:33:55.955
Imagine if you've got 25 kids and you
do 25 different life cycles, instead

00:33:55.955 --> 00:33:59.955
of just learning about a frog, you
get 25 opportunities to learn about

00:34:00.315 --> 00:34:01.185
different things.

00:34:01.775 --> 00:34:06.335
So to me, that was always so exciting
because I learned new stuff about strange

00:34:06.345 --> 00:34:13.535
things that I, never known about, and
it was so, I guess, empowering for the

00:34:13.535 --> 00:34:18.595
children, because they had choice in
what the topic was, but it still met

00:34:18.665 --> 00:34:21.215
the outcome, but it was their own story.

00:34:21.925 --> 00:34:25.425
And the other thing that was always
so beautiful is that you then also saw

00:34:25.455 --> 00:34:29.695
the real talents come out when you used
to say to them, like you say, it's not

00:34:29.695 --> 00:34:33.245
a free for all, but you have little
bits that you can offer them choice

00:34:33.285 --> 00:34:34.535
in,   how they were going to show

00:34:35.110 --> 00:34:36.960
their understanding and their learning.

00:34:37.390 --> 00:34:38.920
And that was always so beautiful.

00:34:38.930 --> 00:34:42.180
Like you would get those kids,  very
academic kids who wanted to write the

00:34:42.180 --> 00:34:44.960
report and all that, and that's fabulous.

00:34:45.470 --> 00:34:49.520
But then you also got those kids that
they'd love to create, and so they

00:34:49.520 --> 00:34:54.180
would make models  and then they'd have
to present and do an oral presentation

00:34:54.180 --> 00:34:55.740
when they presented their model.

00:34:56.410 --> 00:35:00.690
And that was still the exact same
outcome, but just in a different way.

00:35:00.825 --> 00:35:06.335
And I just found that brought so
much positive energy to the classroom

00:35:06.515 --> 00:35:11.865
and children saw that their ideas
and their strengths were valued.

00:35:11.965 --> 00:35:15.885
And so that was always something
that gave me this really warm

00:35:15.885 --> 00:35:17.895
and fuzzy feeling as an educator.

00:35:18.345 --> 00:35:23.135
And I think it was something that
children also valued because they saw

00:35:23.135 --> 00:35:26.950
that their strengths were valued as well.

00:35:27.350 --> 00:35:31.830
And so I've always felt really strongly
that, that we need to give children those

00:35:31.830 --> 00:35:35.980
opportunities to diversify the learning
and you can still meet the outcome.

00:35:35.980 --> 00:35:41.030
So that's really to me as a
teacher, that's just so joyful.

00:35:41.150 --> 00:35:45.830
And I just hope and wish that other
educators can experience that joy

00:35:45.850 --> 00:35:49.430
as well, because I think that's
what makes teaching worthwhile.

00:35:50.410 --> 00:35:51.200
Exactly.

00:35:51.210 --> 00:35:54.990
And I think that's often a good
like litmus test, so to speak,

00:35:54.990 --> 00:35:56.740
certainly not the only way to know.

00:35:56.810 --> 00:36:00.500
But like, if you're feeling the joy
as a teacher, as a member of that

00:36:00.500 --> 00:36:05.100
class community, I'm sure the children
are feeling joy to feeling bored,

00:36:05.500 --> 00:36:09.150
they're probably feeling bored
too, , so remembering that, , I think,

00:36:09.150 --> 00:36:12.720
um, recently I was working with the
team and the focus with them was

00:36:12.740 --> 00:36:16.390
writing and we were talking about
how  if you're like assessing student

00:36:16.390 --> 00:36:18.860
writing and it's all the exact same.

00:36:19.570 --> 00:36:22.660
Well, that's probably because we
taught it like in a formulaic way.

00:36:22.670 --> 00:36:25.530
You know, if you teach a formula,
they're just going to do the

00:36:25.530 --> 00:36:27.440
formula or the fill in the blank.

00:36:27.690 --> 00:36:30.850
You know, but if you open up space,
if you're studying mentor texts

00:36:30.850 --> 00:36:34.190
that show different ways of doing
it, then you're going to get voice.

00:36:34.190 --> 00:36:37.680
You're going to get true communicators,
true writers with craft because they're

00:36:37.680 --> 00:36:42.095
showing you their own way of expression
rather than just a fill in the blank,  and

00:36:42.095 --> 00:36:46.335
I think that can be applied to all the
different disciplines, like we're saying

00:36:46.335 --> 00:36:48.595
with that UDL lens in mind, so to speak.

00:36:48.605 --> 00:36:54.280
I mean, you gave beautiful examples there
that there's there's multiple ways to show

00:36:54.850 --> 00:36:58.730
what you know about a certain outcome or
goal, you know, a certain learning goal.

00:36:58.730 --> 00:37:01.990
There's so many different ways to show
what you know, and if we open up space

00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:05.830
for that, then as a teacher, too,
it's way more joyful to experience,

00:37:06.120 --> 00:37:09.290
and even if there's things you need
to assess, it's way more interesting.

00:37:09.520 --> 00:37:12.740
Like you said, you know, you learn
about so many different life cycles,

00:37:12.740 --> 00:37:14.610
what they learned and what they know.

00:37:15.010 --> 00:37:18.770
And so as a whole community of learners,
like you feel that, and I think

00:37:18.850 --> 00:37:23.050
from a bigger lens, that's sending
a powerful message for them, just as

00:37:23.050 --> 00:37:27.670
humans, that later in life, there's
not one way  to express yourself.

00:37:27.680 --> 00:37:29.340
There's not one way to show knowledge.

00:37:29.340 --> 00:37:31.760
There's not one way to have skill sets.

00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:34.440
I think that's a good
perspective to carry with you.

00:37:34.450 --> 00:37:38.800
So I think there's a lot, a lot of
power there beyond just beyond just

00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:40.480
the academic learning, so to speak.

00:37:40.490 --> 00:37:43.740
There's so much more that we're
learning and teaching as well.

00:37:45.350 --> 00:37:49.250
There's so much I hear, and even when I
go on to things like Reddit groups, for

00:37:49.250 --> 00:37:55.100
example, I see so many people complaining
that their students are disengaged, that

00:37:55.100 --> 00:38:00.920
they have, apathy, that they are not
just bored, but they're boring because

00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:02.630
they have no interest in learning.

00:38:03.530 --> 00:38:06.270
So for me, inquiry is the antidote, right?

00:38:06.470 --> 00:38:12.257
So do you have any practical
advice for educators when they

00:38:12.257 --> 00:38:14.447
are faced with reluctant students.

00:38:14.447 --> 00:38:15.837
How do you bring them out?

00:38:15.977 --> 00:38:18.777
Do you have any advice that
you've seen in your international

00:38:18.777 --> 00:38:20.327
schools and in your experience?

00:38:22.067 --> 00:38:27.027
Yeah, you know, I think it's, it's
also so fascinating in a way to see,

00:38:27.027 --> 00:38:28.697
just what, what we do as humans.

00:38:28.697 --> 00:38:32.577
And I know a few years ago,  there's
a wonderful psychologist, Adam Grant.

00:38:32.637 --> 00:38:34.542
I definitely recommend all books.

00:38:34.542 --> 00:38:35.622
He's fantastic.

00:38:35.982 --> 00:38:39.202
And he was talking about how, when
he's digging into the research,

00:38:40.182 --> 00:38:43.792
we haven't actually lost our
attention and focus as humans.

00:38:43.822 --> 00:38:47.452
Cause a lot of people complain, not only
about students,  but about adults too,

00:38:47.492 --> 00:38:49.622
that we've like lost our ability to focus.

00:38:50.102 --> 00:38:53.612
And he said, actually what studies show is
if we, if it's something we're interested

00:38:53.612 --> 00:38:55.982
in, we can still focus just fine.

00:38:56.672 --> 00:38:57.332
That ability is.

00:38:57.732 --> 00:38:58.402
It's still there.

00:38:58.752 --> 00:39:02.352
It's when something's horribly boring
or like we don't want to do it that

00:39:02.352 --> 00:39:04.022
suddenly we can't focus at all.

00:39:04.342 --> 00:39:05.642
And so that's kind of it.

00:39:05.672 --> 00:39:08.952
It's like you said, it's if they're
disengaged, it's, it's for a reason,

00:39:08.952 --> 00:39:12.262
like that should make us curious,
you know, rather than it making us

00:39:12.262 --> 00:39:15.512
frustrated, I think it should make
us curious of like, why is that?

00:39:15.522 --> 00:39:17.422
Why, why are they not engaged in this?

00:39:17.792 --> 00:39:21.562
And often the answer is, yeah,
we're not letting them live it like

00:39:21.722 --> 00:39:23.977
productive struggle feels good.

00:39:23.987 --> 00:39:25.627
Healthy challenge feels good.

00:39:26.037 --> 00:39:28.757
As the saying goes, the brain that
does the work does the learning.

00:39:28.957 --> 00:39:32.407
So like who's doing the work
and we want that brains on

00:39:32.407 --> 00:39:34.197
engagement that that feels good.

00:39:34.207 --> 00:39:38.837
So I'd say first of all, making sure
that we're not just talking at children,

00:39:38.977 --> 00:39:43.277
you know, we're not and teams like I
work,  all the way up through senior year

00:39:43.277 --> 00:39:46.637
and that at whatever age we're working
with, we're not just talking at them.

00:39:47.152 --> 00:39:48.312
They're really experiencing.

00:39:48.312 --> 00:39:49.102
They have to dig in.

00:39:49.102 --> 00:39:52.132
They have to think
because that is engaging.

00:39:52.392 --> 00:39:56.782
It's pretty boring to not get to actually
think and try and do and figure out.

00:39:57.202 --> 00:40:01.622
Those that are seeming very if
students are seeming very apathetic.

00:40:02.552 --> 00:40:05.652
Again, it's probably what we
would call learned helplessness.

00:40:05.712 --> 00:40:08.182
And I often say, you know,
emphasis on the word learned.

00:40:08.482 --> 00:40:09.762
They've learned it somewhere.

00:40:10.132 --> 00:40:14.022
Um, and so whether it's at home,
whether it's past school experiences

00:40:14.322 --> 00:40:18.202
in earlier years, whether it's from
us unintentionally, they've learned

00:40:18.212 --> 00:40:19.982
to just sit there and do nothing.

00:40:20.812 --> 00:40:26.002
Research 1970s.

00:40:26.252 --> 00:40:28.782
And it's called being a warm demander.

00:40:29.282 --> 00:40:33.922
And so I think that would be something
really important for all listeners to keep

00:40:33.922 --> 00:40:36.132
in mind is, are we being warm demanders?

00:40:36.162 --> 00:40:39.952
And it talks about how for
culturally responsive teaching,

00:40:40.442 --> 00:40:43.162
children need high expectations.

00:40:43.212 --> 00:40:46.867
They need what we'd call active
demandingness, and, and when

00:40:46.867 --> 00:40:49.097
I say children, that's all
the way up through teens too.

00:40:49.097 --> 00:40:50.587
And even as adults, we need that.

00:40:50.847 --> 00:40:53.107
We also need warmth, personal warmth.

00:40:53.107 --> 00:40:56.987
So like relationships first, that's not
just fluff, like research shows again

00:40:56.987 --> 00:41:01.307
and again, no significant learning
without significant relationships.

00:41:01.317 --> 00:41:04.337
So build relationships
with your students first.

00:41:04.907 --> 00:41:09.857
And, and from like a practical lens,
one go to tip would be to use what

00:41:09.857 --> 00:41:11.917
we call positive presuppositions.

00:41:12.567 --> 00:41:13.137
So.

00:41:13.677 --> 00:41:17.917
presume positive things about all
your students and all means all.

00:41:18.177 --> 00:41:20.797
So when you're talking to them,
for example, if you have a learner

00:41:20.797 --> 00:41:24.427
who maybe you feel is always
appears to be disengaged and

00:41:24.427 --> 00:41:29.277
apathetic,  going up to them and
being like, Oh, so what's your plan?

00:41:29.517 --> 00:41:30.727
What will you try next?

00:41:31.137 --> 00:41:33.917
Instead of asking, do you have a plan?

00:41:34.227 --> 00:41:34.477
Right.

00:41:34.487 --> 00:41:36.907
Do you have a plan indicates
like, I think you might not,

00:41:36.957 --> 00:41:37.637
you know, instead of positive.

00:41:38.397 --> 00:41:39.797
Presume that of course they do.

00:41:39.797 --> 00:41:41.597
They're the kind of
learner who makes a plan.

00:41:41.887 --> 00:41:43.177
So you're like, what's your plan?

00:41:43.547 --> 00:41:48.647
And then they probably stop and think,
oh, , wait, and maybe they didn't have

00:41:48.647 --> 00:41:52.837
a plan at all, but because you asked it
in that kind of way, they're like, well,

00:41:53.017 --> 00:41:58.227
I was thinking maybe I might, and they
start to make a plan, you know,  or.

00:41:58.927 --> 00:42:01.557
What have you, what have you done when
you've had this kind of problem before

00:42:01.557 --> 00:42:04.317
you're just assuming they've done
something before they are strategic,

00:42:04.327 --> 00:42:08.237
there are problems all that you can
take any question, , or how did a

00:42:08.237 --> 00:42:10.157
conversation with your partner help you?

00:42:10.577 --> 00:42:13.897
You might even know as a teacher that
you've kind of watched them with their

00:42:13.897 --> 00:42:17.497
partner and it has real meaningful
partner talk, but instead of going up

00:42:17.497 --> 00:42:20.457
and being like, well, did you talk to
your partner or why aren't you like

00:42:20.457 --> 00:42:24.277
talking well with your partner instead
going up and just being like, how is a

00:42:24.277 --> 00:42:26.107
conversation with your partner helped you.

00:42:26.727 --> 00:42:30.477
And again, you'll kind of almost see the
wheels turn and they're like, Oh, well,

00:42:30.517 --> 00:42:35.647
actually, you know, they did tell me that,
you know, and, and they start to become

00:42:36.227 --> 00:42:40.247
that figuring out kind of person because
they see that you believe they are.

00:42:40.697 --> 00:42:45.247
At one time, actually, I was in actually
in Australia at a school, and we were in,

00:42:45.247 --> 00:42:50.737
I think it was a year, year five class,
I think, and you know when I'm because

00:42:50.737 --> 00:42:54.547
I'll go in a lot of times when I visit
schools, I'll go into the classrooms

00:42:54.547 --> 00:42:57.907
and teach and like teachers get to
observe me teaching so I'll go in and

00:42:57.907 --> 00:43:02.637
teach with their students and just to
see some inquiry practices in action.

00:43:03.507 --> 00:43:07.607
And I always intentionally, , look
for kind of the hot spot, so to

00:43:07.607 --> 00:43:10.647
speak, you know, like, I'm not going
to go and just talk to the child

00:43:10.647 --> 00:43:12.827
who's clearly fully in, into it.

00:43:12.827 --> 00:43:15.997
I don't think that'd be as helpful
for the teachers versus seeing, like,

00:43:15.997 --> 00:43:19.907
let's work with all, all students in
the room and show what's possible.

00:43:20.287 --> 00:43:22.817
So there were these two boys and
they were,  we had, it was during

00:43:22.847 --> 00:43:24.227
what we would call a mini lesson.

00:43:24.227 --> 00:43:25.697
Like they were all down on the carpet.

00:43:25.697 --> 00:43:27.327
We were  gathered
together as a whole group.

00:43:28.172 --> 00:43:31.082
And I was having them turn and
learn, like turn and talk together.

00:43:31.082 --> 00:43:33.982
And there were these two boys on the
outskirts of the circle, you know, you

00:43:33.982 --> 00:43:38.652
could tell they were kind of like had,
they were discussing, but you just could

00:43:38.652 --> 00:43:42.632
tell that they were kind of used to being
on the outskirts and not doing as much.

00:43:42.632 --> 00:43:45.692
So I went over and asked them
like, Ooh,  what are you thinking?

00:43:46.497 --> 00:43:49.947
And they paused and, and they
told me what they thought.

00:43:49.957 --> 00:43:53.527
They each, they kind of did the side
smile at each other, you know, as they're

00:43:54.117 --> 00:43:57.977
adolescents, like, Oh, I guess we have to
come up with something we were thinking,

00:43:57.977 --> 00:44:00.717
you know, um, and they said something.

00:44:00.917 --> 00:44:03.837
And I was like, Oh, that's so interesting.

00:44:04.037 --> 00:44:05.547
And you could see the shock.

00:44:05.892 --> 00:44:09.312
That I, like, value, that I said
what they said was interesting.

00:44:10.042 --> 00:44:13.302
Um, and then I asked them,
I said, What's your names?

00:44:13.302 --> 00:44:14.542
And they told me their two names.

00:44:14.552 --> 00:44:17.242
And I said,  could I share
that with everyone else when we

00:44:17.242 --> 00:44:18.512
come back together in a moment?

00:44:19.362 --> 00:44:22.072
And  they said, I'll never forget it.

00:44:22.072 --> 00:44:25.192
They said, Well, I think
they already know our names.

00:44:25.192 --> 00:44:27.062
I think everyone here knows it.

00:44:27.062 --> 00:44:29.796
They thought I wanted to share
their, I'm like, no, no, I

00:44:29.796 --> 00:44:31.462
want to share your thinking.

00:44:31.462 --> 00:44:35.772
Like what, and that was though, uh, a
sign to me that they don't often get

00:44:35.772 --> 00:44:37.642
asked to like, do you know what I mean?

00:44:37.642 --> 00:44:41.312
Like, I think they were just shocked that
I was going to lift up their thinking.

00:44:41.792 --> 00:44:45.432
And you could see them sit a little taller
when we brought everyone back together.

00:44:45.442 --> 00:44:48.502
And I was like, you know, I was just
talking with so and so and so and so, and

00:44:48.502 --> 00:44:52.402
they said something that I was like, I
hadn't even thought of that before, you

00:44:52.402 --> 00:44:54.112
know, and I lifted up what they said.

00:44:54.122 --> 00:44:57.632
And it was like, you, again,
you like literally see them

00:44:57.642 --> 00:44:58.982
sitting up a little taller.

00:44:59.012 --> 00:45:03.322
And so all of that is to say, I
think, start with relationships,  and

00:45:03.352 --> 00:45:08.052
positive presuppositions and  show
them with that warm demand or stance,

00:45:08.092 --> 00:45:12.822
uh, research says you have to earn the
right to demand engagement and effort.

00:45:13.152 --> 00:45:16.292
As a teacher, you have to earn the
right to demand engagement and effort.

00:45:16.292 --> 00:45:21.002
So I think, showing that respect and
honor and value, and then you can demand,

00:45:21.282 --> 00:45:25.262
then  when they want to just kind of
not engage,  you can be like, oh, well,

00:45:25.342 --> 00:45:27.572
you know, if they say, oh, I'm finished.

00:45:27.587 --> 00:45:31.057
I mean, like, oh, great  show me,
show me, you know, where you did this

00:45:31.057 --> 00:45:34.287
and that and, and then they realize
they haven't and then they do it,

00:45:34.287 --> 00:45:37.327
you know, so you're still holding
them to high expectations, but it's

00:45:37.327 --> 00:45:39.127
because you, you've earned that right.

00:45:39.567 --> 00:45:42.547
And then I guess just what we talked
about earlier like where can you open

00:45:42.547 --> 00:45:44.537
up choice because that's so motivating.

00:45:44.797 --> 00:45:48.847
So again, if it's reading and you're,
you're looking at like a deep study of

00:45:48.847 --> 00:45:51.987
character, well, they could be reading
any book with characters, right?

00:45:51.987 --> 00:45:54.887
They don't have to read the same
book, any book with characters.

00:45:54.887 --> 00:45:57.587
They can practice the skills you're
teaching to analyze characters.

00:45:57.587 --> 00:46:00.067
So if they want to read
this book that they love.

00:46:00.972 --> 00:46:04.912
More power to them like they should
there should be this joy and same thing

00:46:04.912 --> 00:46:09.932
and information reading and writing
same thing in art, you know, we're

00:46:09.932 --> 00:46:13.932
thinking across the disciplines like in
any discipline, you can find that space

00:46:13.942 --> 00:46:15.662
for where can they make those choices.

00:46:16.132 --> 00:46:18.602
And that's going to make them
much more engaged as well.

00:46:18.732 --> 00:46:21.312
You know, I think that's,
that's human, right.

00:46:21.382 --> 00:46:26.532
That's excellent, and really such
practical and thoughtful advice.

00:46:26.832 --> 00:46:29.012
Thank you for sharing that, with us.

00:46:29.932 --> 00:46:32.782
Listen, we're coming to the end,
but what I'd like to ask you is, can

00:46:32.782 --> 00:46:37.632
you share a time that you've helped
educators transform their classroom  is

00:46:37.632 --> 00:46:41.852
there something that you can share
with us that just shows how inquiry has

00:46:41.852 --> 00:46:45.252
transformed teachers and students life.

00:46:45.992 --> 00:46:50.032
Yeah,  that's such a great question and
you asking it just made me think it kind

00:46:50.032 --> 00:46:56.202
of made my heart just fill because I
realized, wow, what a blessing for me

00:46:56.262 --> 00:47:00.042
that I can think like you can ask that
I'm like, I can actually think of quite

00:47:00.042 --> 00:47:02.812
a few schools, and that's beautiful.

00:47:03.012 --> 00:47:06.262
Like I hadn't really thought about
that, that it's like, wow, what a gift.

00:47:06.262 --> 00:47:10.612
I feel so fortunate to be able to work
with so many great educators who've,

00:47:10.872 --> 00:47:14.752
who've jumped in and have transformed,
because I think we can always outgrow

00:47:14.752 --> 00:47:16.392
ourselves, like myself included.

00:47:16.392 --> 00:47:19.452
I always want to be learning
and growing and transforming.

00:47:19.522 --> 00:47:21.552
Um, I think the biggest
thing that's helped.

00:47:21.572 --> 00:47:25.202
So, so yes, I can share some
examples and from multiple schools.

00:47:25.647 --> 00:47:29.747
And the schools where it's happened
have been the schools where it

00:47:29.757 --> 00:47:31.997
wasn't just a one and done pursuit.

00:47:32.467 --> 00:47:36.067
I really see myself not just as a
consultant, but as a strategist.

00:47:36.077 --> 00:47:38.427
So strategizing with schools,
what are their needs?

00:47:38.427 --> 00:47:43.257
What are their values and designing
something often new just for them or

00:47:43.267 --> 00:47:45.207
synthesizing things just for them.

00:47:45.607 --> 00:47:48.017
And then working together
for several years, actually.

00:47:48.017 --> 00:47:52.347
So getting to make multiple points to
the school, really becoming a partner.

00:47:52.617 --> 00:47:57.242
Like we know each other, we know each
other well, , and I've seen complete

00:47:57.262 --> 00:48:01.282
transformations of approaches where
like one, one school I work with

00:48:01.892 --> 00:48:04.572
just wonderful teams and educators.

00:48:04.572 --> 00:48:08.512
And I've been working with them
for,  going into, I think our fourth

00:48:08.522 --> 00:48:12.442
year now with like two visits a year,
every school year, two onsite visits.

00:48:13.212 --> 00:48:16.502
Even some online sessions in the
midst of things too at times to

00:48:16.502 --> 00:48:20.262
kind of catch up and follow up, I'll
zoom in to like their team meetings

00:48:20.262 --> 00:48:21.552
and things every now and then.

00:48:22.182 --> 00:48:25.882
And it's like we really know each other
so you've built that trust and I think

00:48:25.892 --> 00:48:28.832
that leads to that transformation too.

00:48:29.142 --> 00:48:34.547
But they've completely Like their whole
approach to mathematics has changed

00:48:34.557 --> 00:48:39.407
from, you know, a more what we might
call conventional approach to an inquiry

00:48:39.407 --> 00:48:43.817
rich approach, and they are just full
on living it, you know, going from not

00:48:43.817 --> 00:48:48.917
really being sure what to do, feeling like
the only they can just only teach math

00:48:48.927 --> 00:48:53.247
the way they learned it, which is very
rote and conventional to now, designing

00:48:53.357 --> 00:48:57.897
their own rich math tasks and ensuring
there's time for a whole group, small

00:48:57.897 --> 00:49:00.257
group and one on one experiences and

00:49:00.652 --> 00:49:04.782
it's just  completely different
their, their time in mathematics looks

00:49:04.792 --> 00:49:06.302
completely different than it did.

00:49:06.392 --> 00:49:09.012
Um, and with another school,
same thing, like three years of

00:49:09.012 --> 00:49:14.882
partnership, but with them, it was
writing and reading, uh, literacy and.

00:49:15.767 --> 00:49:19.377
With them, it was though kind of starting
with an opposite lens is they were

00:49:19.377 --> 00:49:24.307
pendulum swings work both ways and they'd
kind of swung they they approached me

00:49:24.307 --> 00:49:29.377
initially as a school community being
like we've kind of lost the idea of true

00:49:29.457 --> 00:49:34.097
inquiry being intentional, like there's
a lot happening that's just kind of

00:49:34.207 --> 00:49:38.517
every doing whatever they want, and the
sense of there's not cohesion, we're

00:49:38.517 --> 00:49:40.277
not able to work together as a team.

00:49:40.852 --> 00:49:45.192
And kind of this misconception that
explicit teaching can't happen in inquiry.

00:49:45.702 --> 00:49:50.562
So they actually need to help finding
more equilibrium of like where and

00:49:50.562 --> 00:49:54.392
how can explicit teaching live like
in that just in time kind of way.

00:49:54.702 --> 00:49:59.262
How can we have like a scope and
sequence so that there is equity for all

00:49:59.262 --> 00:50:03.982
learners but still have our own agency
as teachers and still ensure there's

00:50:03.982 --> 00:50:06.432
lots of space for curiosity and growth.

00:50:06.432 --> 00:50:13.182
And so  seeing some teachers who at first
were quite adamant  no, I don't want

00:50:13.202 --> 00:50:18.962
like inquiry, like from their lens they
passionately wanted it to be kind of do

00:50:18.962 --> 00:50:23.982
whatever you want,  to then them coming to
me, you know, after, after even just the

00:50:23.982 --> 00:50:28.332
first year together, them being the one
advocating because they'd seen the power

00:50:28.332 --> 00:50:31.812
of what their writers were doing and what
their readers were doing and how much joy

00:50:31.832 --> 00:50:33.562
they had and how much growth they had.

00:50:33.572 --> 00:50:38.357
So  just seeing that shift in individuals
as well, I think was really powerful where

00:50:38.357 --> 00:50:40.217
they can have a whole perspective change.

00:50:40.387 --> 00:50:43.537
And again, not that they weren't an
incredible educator to begin with,

00:50:43.547 --> 00:50:48.787
because I can sincerely say they were,
but they just had, I think sometimes, you

00:50:48.787 --> 00:50:50.717
know, it's scary to try something new.

00:50:50.717 --> 00:50:53.597
It's scary to like, go out
and do something different.

00:50:53.597 --> 00:50:59.802
And so to see at first being a little
resistant to then wanting to like have,

00:50:59.852 --> 00:51:04.182
just on their own, like extra little calls
together, checking in, sending pictures

00:51:04.182 --> 00:51:08.372
of what they're doing sending, you
know, because they're seeing the power.

00:51:08.372 --> 00:51:12.402
So I think the biggest shift is when
you see the change in the students.

00:51:12.402 --> 00:51:15.722
Of course, like, when you actually
get to try it and you see it.

00:51:16.622 --> 00:51:20.292
And so for a lot of my visits, again,
I go into classrooms and teach,

00:51:20.472 --> 00:51:25.102
and that's usually the biggest game
changer, so to speak, is like, we're

00:51:25.102 --> 00:51:28.612
not just going to  talk theory,  we're
going to go in and like, do it.

00:51:28.642 --> 00:51:32.052
And I think when teachers get to see
their own students that they, that

00:51:32.052 --> 00:51:37.142
maybe had seemed apathetic, now suddenly
engaged, or that maybe they didn't think

00:51:37.842 --> 00:51:41.642
, would want , to write that much or
read that much or talk that much

00:51:41.642 --> 00:51:43.722
or do whatever, suddenly they are.

00:51:44.072 --> 00:51:47.202
Suddenly they're engaged and they're,
and just from a few, just from

00:51:47.222 --> 00:51:51.112
starting the lesson with a question
and offering like some choice, you

00:51:51.112 --> 00:51:52.537
know, like something that's simple.

00:51:52.537 --> 00:51:57.177
It can seem like small tweaks and they
see this whole shift in their environment.

00:51:57.877 --> 00:52:00.717
I think that's where then as, of
course, as an educator, you're

00:52:00.717 --> 00:52:02.137
like, well, I want more of that.

00:52:02.247 --> 00:52:04.717
Like, yeah, let's do whatever we
need to do to have more of that

00:52:04.757 --> 00:52:06.287
because, , but you have to see it.

00:52:06.357 --> 00:52:09.947
I think if we only just talk about
it, , It's just what we were saying.

00:52:10.187 --> 00:52:11.927
We're kind of circling
back to where we started.

00:52:11.927 --> 00:52:15.937
Like we said with kids, they experience
it, like, so do we as teachers who are

00:52:16.027 --> 00:52:17.807
always learning and outgrowing ourselves.

00:52:17.817 --> 00:52:22.707
So,  all of that's to say, I think the
biggest transformation comes when just

00:52:22.707 --> 00:52:26.037
like we want for children, everything
we say we believe for children,

00:52:26.047 --> 00:52:27.667
like, do we believe it for ourselves?

00:52:28.087 --> 00:52:31.057
Because that means teachers
need time to live the inquiry

00:52:31.067 --> 00:52:33.597
interplay of asking and answering.

00:52:33.597 --> 00:52:33.612
Yeah.

00:52:33.802 --> 00:52:39.042
And trying, doing, reflecting, thinking
like they need that time and if we don't

00:52:39.042 --> 00:52:42.822
give that time and space for them to
really live it, you know, in a brains

00:52:42.822 --> 00:52:47.552
on way and engage and do it and try it,
it's probably just going to float away.

00:52:48.052 --> 00:52:53.022
You know, the, the one day workshop,
you'll, you'll spark like any time I

00:52:53.022 --> 00:52:56.112
do do that, like I'll, I'll throw some
sparks and there'll be some seeds.

00:52:56.942 --> 00:53:01.292
But unless that teacher was already
super motivated,  because it was their

00:53:01.292 --> 00:53:04.062
own personal interest or what have
you, it's probably going to float

00:53:04.062 --> 00:53:07.402
away, just like we would see with
students at a younger age, you know.

00:53:07.722 --> 00:53:12.202
The times when it sticks and takes
root and transforms is when they get to

00:53:12.202 --> 00:53:17.712
live their own inquiry,  , and live the
learning and try and, and make mistakes

00:53:17.712 --> 00:53:21.182
and have a coach there to, to reflect
on their mistakes and all of that.

00:53:21.572 --> 00:53:22.142
Yeah.

00:53:22.772 --> 00:53:26.432
I guess we're starting now
to prioritize skills, right?

00:53:26.432 --> 00:53:29.462
For example, even in the Australian
curriculum, there are outcomes

00:53:29.462 --> 00:53:33.162
that teachers have to meet in
terms of skills, , that they teach,

00:53:33.302 --> 00:53:34.442
that we're teaching children.

00:53:35.012 --> 00:53:38.622
And this whole thing about
adaptability and collaboration.

00:53:40.487 --> 00:53:43.167
See that there's a future
for inquiry going forward?

00:53:43.207 --> 00:53:45.877
Because when you listen to things
like, you know, John Hattie, for

00:53:45.877 --> 00:53:49.897
example, saying in high impact teaching
strategies, that inquiry doesn't work.

00:53:49.907 --> 00:53:53.327
Inquiry doesn't work and kids aren't
performing well and it's really a

00:53:53.327 --> 00:53:59.177
waste of time and it doesn't make
any impact on children's learning.

00:54:01.057 --> 00:54:04.657
Is there a future for
inquiry going forward?

00:54:04.657 --> 00:54:10.692
I mean, I think there is, and obviously
all of those educators and people

00:54:10.702 --> 00:54:15.522
like yourself who've experienced
it and lived it know that there is.

00:54:16.192 --> 00:54:19.182
But what do we say to the naysayers?

00:54:20.262 --> 00:54:25.382
Yeah, so there's, I  I really appreciate
John Hattie's work and I lean on

00:54:25.462 --> 00:54:29.972
a lot of his research and work for
how we support agency, actually.

00:54:29.972 --> 00:54:34.392
And that students can be self
assessors, self adjusters and

00:54:34.392 --> 00:54:37.102
really have agency ownership.

00:54:37.217 --> 00:54:37.967
Of their learning.

00:54:38.407 --> 00:54:40.527
But you know,  there's a great video clip.

00:54:40.967 --> 00:54:43.157
Um, I'll see, I'll send it to you.

00:54:43.157 --> 00:54:47.107
Cause maybe we can add it with like the
link to the podcast from John Hattie.

00:54:47.377 --> 00:54:50.817
And he talks about this, this very
thing you're describing where really

00:54:50.887 --> 00:54:55.407
the reason why, what he believes from
the research he's done so far, that

00:54:55.407 --> 00:54:57.787
the reason why inquiry is often seen as

00:54:58.207 --> 00:55:02.657
less impact than some of these other
high impact moves is he thinks that

00:55:02.657 --> 00:55:06.037
the studies they the meta analyses
they brought together it's that

00:55:06.067 --> 00:55:07.797
inquiry hasn't been done well.

00:55:08.277 --> 00:55:12.917
If you're doing well, he says,
if you're doing inquiry well,

00:55:12.967 --> 00:55:14.367
it could be quite different.

00:55:14.857 --> 00:55:18.917
And so he talks a lot about and I talk,
I do a lot of work with this with teams

00:55:18.917 --> 00:55:23.347
I work with to have,  do we design again,
going back to that being intentional?

00:55:23.357 --> 00:55:26.927
Do we design a unit or a
bend a section of a unit?

00:55:27.452 --> 00:55:31.642
With the spiral of surface, deep
and transfer learning in mind.

00:55:31.922 --> 00:55:34.962
So it kind of goes back to that
just in time, not just in case.

00:55:35.472 --> 00:55:39.552
When inquiry is seen as not impactful,
it's when we're actually not doing

00:55:39.552 --> 00:55:43.472
just in time, explicit teaching, and
we're not doing some surface learning.

00:55:43.792 --> 00:55:47.172
We're just throwing kids in, we're
throwing eggs in the water, right?

00:55:47.172 --> 00:55:50.282
And we go back to that proverb, we're
like, all right, we're gonna like,

00:55:50.462 --> 00:55:53.292
explore this off, off you go, go explore.

00:55:53.322 --> 00:55:55.432
And I'll just kind of be here.

00:55:55.882 --> 00:55:59.882
, we also talk a lot about how that's
the difference between being a

00:55:59.882 --> 00:56:02.342
facilitator and being an activator.

00:56:02.752 --> 00:56:06.662
So trying to move from a
misunderstanding of, oh, as teacher,

00:56:06.662 --> 00:56:08.372
we're just facilitator, which.

00:56:08.732 --> 00:56:10.142
It isn't a bad thing.

00:56:10.142 --> 00:56:15.012
I think that term started in a good way,
but it's sometimes misunderstood for where

00:56:15.012 --> 00:56:18.872
teachers think as long as I just have the
materials I facilitated, I created the

00:56:18.872 --> 00:56:21.192
activity and the materials off you go.

00:56:21.492 --> 00:56:24.962
Instead, no, you have a huge role
and a huge impact as a teacher,

00:56:25.302 --> 00:56:26.842
like good teachers matter.

00:56:27.762 --> 00:56:29.792
So you need to be there as an activator.

00:56:30.532 --> 00:56:33.922
And so if you're in the midst of the
learning, in the midst of the inquiry,

00:56:34.142 --> 00:56:38.562
your brain's on and hands on with the
kids, you're meeting with small groups

00:56:38.562 --> 00:56:42.052
and coaching in, you're coaching one
on one and conferring one on one.

00:56:42.052 --> 00:56:44.492
Like, if you're doing that, like,
when kids go off to live the

00:56:44.492 --> 00:56:46.522
work and to live the learning.

00:56:46.807 --> 00:56:51.497
You can't be, you know, checking your
emails or hanging things up the wall just

00:56:51.507 --> 00:56:53.587
because  oh, they're all like learning.

00:56:53.597 --> 00:56:54.317
They're engaged.

00:56:54.317 --> 00:56:55.897
So I'll just go do this other stuff.

00:56:56.147 --> 00:56:58.627
No, that's when you're doing
your most powerful teaching.

00:56:59.007 --> 00:57:04.767
So I think this mix of understanding
that,  inquiry can be very, very

00:57:04.777 --> 00:57:08.197
powerful pedagogy and there's
plenty of research to back that up.

00:57:08.737 --> 00:57:13.037
However, as with probably any
pedagogies, it has to be done well.

00:57:13.207 --> 00:57:16.937
And so to make sure you do plan,
kind of think of your unit as a

00:57:16.937 --> 00:57:19.307
journey, you know, as a storyline.

00:57:19.337 --> 00:57:24.157
And so how do you teach some
initial surface learning so

00:57:24.397 --> 00:57:25.547
that children can go deep?

00:57:25.762 --> 00:57:29.732
And so that children can transfer because
if you don't have the surface learning,

00:57:30.002 --> 00:57:33.412
they probably will just be eggs in the
water and they're not going to learn.

00:57:33.462 --> 00:57:35.722
And those are going to be the
studies where it's like, oh, they

00:57:35.722 --> 00:57:37.042
actually, this wasn't effective.

00:57:37.112 --> 00:57:39.452
They didn't, they didn't walk
away with a lot of knowledge

00:57:39.452 --> 00:57:40.852
and understanding and skills.

00:57:41.392 --> 00:57:44.732
Um, so that, that I think
would be one big piece.

00:57:44.772 --> 00:57:47.917
And then, yeah, and then on the side, The
skills end of things, you know, I think,

00:57:48.627 --> 00:57:53.937
um, not all schools I work with are IB,
but a lot of them are, and we talk a

00:57:53.937 --> 00:57:58.167
lot about approaches to learning skills,
ATL skills, which are like critical

00:57:58.237 --> 00:58:02.357
thinking skills, creative thinking skills,
communication skills, social skills.

00:58:04.387 --> 00:58:06.137
And that those are really important too.

00:58:06.137 --> 00:58:10.097
And I think inquiry just helps that
all the more, you know, inquiry,

00:58:10.097 --> 00:58:13.047
if you have to go off and live the
learning, you're going to have to

00:58:13.047 --> 00:58:14.967
collaborate and communicate and think.

00:58:15.357 --> 00:58:19.187
And so you're building those skills
and, and this day and age, especially,

00:58:19.187 --> 00:58:20.457
I think that's really important.

00:58:20.477 --> 00:58:23.267
There's, um, you've probably
seen by our conversation.

00:58:23.267 --> 00:58:24.217
I love my quotes.

00:58:24.217 --> 00:58:25.207
I'm a big quote collector.

00:58:26.532 --> 00:58:31.162
There's a quote on,  from years ago,
actually, I know that AI is like the big

00:58:31.182 --> 00:58:35.422
thing right now, artificial intelligence,
but this quote is from like over a decade

00:58:35.422 --> 00:58:42.232
ago, I believe, and it and the author
says, , you know, we were so worried that

00:58:42.232 --> 00:58:44.432
machines will start thinking like humans.

00:58:45.207 --> 00:58:49.007
But we should be worried instead that
humans might start thinking like machines.

00:58:49.007 --> 00:58:54.287
And it was like, oh, touche, you know,
like, mic dropped, like, it's true.

00:58:54.377 --> 00:59:01.427
And I feel like if we're not teaching
in an inquiry rich way, we will, we've

00:59:01.427 --> 00:59:04.687
already seen it happen, there's a lot of
young adults that go out into the world

00:59:04.687 --> 00:59:07.537
and they're just thinking like a machine,
like, tell me what to do and I'll do it.

00:59:07.857 --> 00:59:08.997
You tell me what to do and I'll do it.

00:59:08.997 --> 00:59:11.727
But other than that, I don't,
I don't think on my own at all.

00:59:12.037 --> 00:59:15.127
You know, and then you think from a
larger society lens, I mean, things

00:59:15.127 --> 00:59:20.087
like social media, like Facebook or
whatever, like people will just reshare

00:59:20.127 --> 00:59:23.907
posts, that you're like, how in the
world could they think this is true?

00:59:23.917 --> 00:59:26.107
Like, I'll see people share
something that is clearly.

00:59:27.207 --> 00:59:30.577
Not true information like something
ridiculous like to you and me,

00:59:30.577 --> 00:59:31.807
we think that's ridiculous.

00:59:31.817 --> 00:59:32.767
Why would they share that?

00:59:32.777 --> 00:59:35.387
And they're sharing it
wholeheartedly thinking it's true.

00:59:35.687 --> 00:59:38.697
Like they didn't exercise
their critical thinking.

00:59:38.717 --> 00:59:39.317
You know what I mean?

00:59:39.327 --> 00:59:41.867
They, they believe if they
see it, if someone puts it

00:59:41.867 --> 00:59:43.087
out there, it must be true.

00:59:43.097 --> 00:59:43.587
Right?

00:59:43.617 --> 00:59:49.507
And so like that, those are the skills we
really need to teach is critical thinking,

00:59:49.517 --> 00:59:52.017
creative thinking, thinking for yourself.

00:59:52.247 --> 00:59:56.847
You know,  investigating,  so that
they're not just going off and rotely

00:59:56.887 --> 00:59:59.987
thinking like machines, but they're
thinking like a human, you know?

01:00:00.417 --> 01:00:04.987
Before we started recording, , Tonya and
I were having a long, long chat before

01:00:04.987 --> 01:00:06.777
we actually pressed the record button.

01:00:07.257 --> 01:00:12.487
And we were talking about, my sons
who've just,  now started the workforce

01:00:12.517 --> 01:00:14.437
and they've finish their degrees.

01:00:15.397 --> 01:00:19.287
But what we didn't say, Tonya, what
I didn't share was that everything

01:00:19.287 --> 01:00:23.447
that they did in their degree with
those skills that we actually teach in

01:00:23.447 --> 01:00:28.167
inquiry, it's not anymore that,  you
just sit in a little room and you

01:00:28.167 --> 01:00:29.567
study and then you regurgitate it.

01:00:30.662 --> 01:00:35.242
Almost every single thing they
did was through collaboration was

01:00:35.242 --> 01:00:37.412
required them to work with others.

01:00:37.422 --> 01:00:39.222
It required them to do research.

01:00:39.222 --> 01:00:42.472
It required them to write lengthy reports.

01:00:42.572 --> 01:00:44.372
It required critical thinking.

01:00:44.372 --> 01:00:46.462
It required analysis of data.

01:00:47.032 --> 01:00:51.242
And to me, whenever, they shared what
they were doing with me, I always

01:00:51.242 --> 01:00:53.762
thought, gosh, that's exactly inquiry.

01:00:53.762 --> 01:00:57.402
, when we talk about preparing
children for the future, And having

01:00:57.402 --> 01:00:59.322
the skills to navigate a future.

01:00:59.982 --> 01:01:03.552
It's only those inquiry skills
that we learn whilst we're doing

01:01:03.552 --> 01:01:07.622
it, whilst we're in there, knee
deep, elbow deep in that process.

01:01:08.362 --> 01:01:11.582
That is what's going to stand
kids in good stead for the future.

01:01:12.592 --> 01:01:17.432
So I think that that's, that was pretty
pertinent because Yeah, I've seen it

01:01:17.432 --> 01:01:21.422
sort of firsthand myself in terms of
the skills that kids are using  in

01:01:21.422 --> 01:01:25.332
the future, which is really now and
going forward  are those skills of

01:01:25.332 --> 01:01:29.792
collaboration, critical thinking,
problem solving, really important.

01:01:30.232 --> 01:01:33.932
Tonya, this has been an
amazing conversation and I've

01:01:33.942 --> 01:01:35.462
just absolutely loved it.

01:01:36.142 --> 01:01:39.592
And so my last question to you
is how do you stay curious?

01:01:39.642 --> 01:01:44.912
There's probably a few ways, but my
biggest one is I, I do love to read.

01:01:44.912 --> 01:01:48.482
I think I mentioned that in passing
earlier, like I'm such a reader.

01:01:48.482 --> 01:01:54.592
So for me, I prefer like versus,  not
that I don't sometimes watch videos or, or

01:01:54.592 --> 01:01:59.302
listen to different, you know, , lectures
or things like that as ways to learn or

01:01:59.302 --> 01:02:03.122
take courses and, you know, all of that,
done all of that, still do all of that.

01:02:03.422 --> 01:02:08.082
But my biggest way that keeps me curious
is I just like kind of voraciously read.

01:02:08.462 --> 01:02:11.492
And now I do love, of course,
reading,  fiction and then things

01:02:11.492 --> 01:02:13.232
like that, light reads for fun.

01:02:13.552 --> 01:02:18.072
But as as an educator and, you know,
from a professional lens, I'm always

01:02:18.072 --> 01:02:23.462
reading like professional reads and I
think like just reading, reading and

01:02:23.662 --> 01:02:25.702
and also reading the research as well.

01:02:25.702 --> 01:02:28.612
, One of my favorite things
to do is if I really like a

01:02:28.612 --> 01:02:30.772
professional read, I go to the,

01:02:31.302 --> 01:02:34.872
the back of the book, you know, where
they list all of their resources

01:02:34.872 --> 01:02:38.122
and the studies they leaned on to
then go read the studies myself.

01:02:38.122 --> 01:02:42.972
And because that I think can be
really,  just fascinating to see.

01:02:42.982 --> 01:02:46.572
First of all, that sometimes unfortunately
studies get taken out of context.

01:02:46.582 --> 01:02:49.642
So again, we ourselves have to
use those critical thinking skills

01:02:49.642 --> 01:02:52.112
and be like, Oh, well, that's not
actually what this was saying.

01:02:52.432 --> 01:02:55.342
Other times it just leads you
to just, yeah, new knowledge.

01:02:55.362 --> 01:02:57.762
Um, so I think just that.

01:02:58.507 --> 01:03:03.147
That reading widely,  and deeply,
I think helps a lot too, because

01:03:03.147 --> 01:03:04.847
then you see there's not one way.

01:03:05.077 --> 01:03:07.997
Like, I think the biggest thing
that keeps me curious is, like,

01:03:07.997 --> 01:03:12.727
I really, really have experienced
myself that there's not one way.

01:03:12.937 --> 01:03:17.387
And so I'm never gonna feel like,
oh, well, this is the one way.

01:03:17.387 --> 01:03:18.777
You must do it this way.

01:03:18.797 --> 01:03:22.767
Even with, even with core values, like
a core value, as we've discussed today

01:03:22.797 --> 01:03:28.957
is, I do believe in honoring, , agency,
and I do believe in living inquiry.

01:03:29.612 --> 01:03:31.812
But I also know there's
not one way to do that.

01:03:31.872 --> 01:03:34.672
You know that there's different
ways that can look at each school

01:03:34.672 --> 01:03:36.372
and each country and each context.

01:03:36.372 --> 01:03:39.912
And so I think that naturally
helps keep me curious because

01:03:40.212 --> 01:03:41.542
there's always more to learn.

01:03:41.802 --> 01:03:46.242
I'm never, I don't think I could
ever be done learning, um, and just

01:03:46.252 --> 01:03:49.362
learning of different ways and different
perspectives and different things.

01:03:49.372 --> 01:03:54.262
So, um, yeah, I think  just thankful
to have had the experiences of

01:03:54.262 --> 01:03:57.482
seeing there's not one way, because
I do feel like that changed a lot.

01:03:57.483 --> 01:03:57.497
Yeah.

01:03:57.737 --> 01:04:02.187
If I think back to when I grew up,  like
growing up in a small town, you know, in

01:04:02.187 --> 01:04:07.667
the U. S., the world, it seemed like there
were just only a certain few set of ways,

01:04:07.927 --> 01:04:11.417
but then the more you travel and the more
you visit and the more you experience

01:04:11.427 --> 01:04:15.807
and the different people you meet, you
see that, oh, no, definitely not one way.

01:04:15.997 --> 01:04:17.627
Um, and I'm so thankful for that.

01:04:18.057 --> 01:04:21.097
Um, and then just reading,
reading, reading, love to read.

01:04:21.097 --> 01:04:24.647
So that's my biggest way to kind
of keep growing my curiosity.

01:04:25.047 --> 01:04:25.727
Amazing!

01:04:25.727 --> 01:04:28.887
Tonya thanks for coming on
to Blooming Curious today.

01:04:28.887 --> 01:04:34.247
We've had such a fabulous chat and I
hope that everybody who listens today

01:04:34.257 --> 01:04:38.767
really takes away so many fantastic
deep gems from you because you're just

01:04:38.767 --> 01:04:43.337
such an incredible educator and an
incredible teacher, not just to children,

01:04:43.347 --> 01:04:45.177
but to educators all over the world.

01:04:45.177 --> 01:04:49.017
So thank you for the work that you
do and thanks for being here today.

01:04:49.017 --> 01:04:49.857
I so appreciate it.