Today, I am very honored to be welcoming International Education
Consultant and Learning Strategist Tonya Gilchrist to the podcast.
Tonya specializes in helping schools around the world amplify inquiry
and honor agency for deep learning and transfer across languages,
literacies and disciplines.
Tonya works with schools to tailor professional learning Just for their
specific contexts and their unique needs.
Tonya has enjoyed many years as an educator, instructional
coach, and curriculum specialist.
Tonya, it's such an honor and a pleasure to welcome you today to Blooming Curious.
Oh yeah, thank you.
I'm so happy to be here.
I've really been looking forward to our conversation so thanks for having me.
Oh, probably not as much as I've been looking forward to having you.
Listen, you're such a massive advocate for inquiry based learning.
What sparked your passion for inquiry?
That is a wonderful question.
You know, I think for sure, you know, if we go back to just early life as a child,
definitely, I think I've always been a curious kind of person, so to speak.
So I loved learning.
I loved I was one of those students that loved school, loved to
learn new things, loved growing.
So that I think natural curiosity and inquiry in that sense was always there.
I've always been a big reader.
And of course, there's so much you learn through story in the
world of books and imagination.
So that was always living there.
And though I think that as an educator, really, , I guess two big things
that sparked Inquiry for me in the educational lens would be just my
foundations as an educator in university.
So I was blessed to have a wonderful academic advisor and
in the courses I took with her
she really advocated for what we often call workshop
framework or studio framework.
So this idea that the bulk of your time is spent with children and living
the learning, you know, out there really living it not just being talked
to about it, and that you that are coaching one on one meeting with small
groups like learning that just while in university then became that that was just
how you teach.
Like I didn't know a different way and I'm really grateful for that, that
it was of course going to be a really inquiry rich approach to teaching.
So I carried that with me.
And then I think, um, the other big thing that kind of really ignited
the passion further would be sort of unfortunate, but ended up being
fortunate, is that, I started off my career in the US and at the time,
, things were really becoming incredibly
big big test focused like standardized test.
Yes.
, and as a teacher in the classroom, you know, really teaching with inquiry
rich workshop approaches, you know, relationships first, , to have it all
just become sort of this mindless march through, published curriculum that
every teacher needed to be doing the exact same thing in the exact same way.
All for the sake of a standardized test at the end of the year,
it was like soul crushing.
Um, and that's what actually moved me into the international teaching realm is I was
literally Googling like what else can I do because I can't, I can't keep doing
this like it doesn't align with my values.
So I think that having seen what so doesn't work and what isn't helpful.
For children and for learners is what has made me all the more passionate about.
We have to, we have to advocate for inquiry and agency and self
regulation and critical thinking.
Like, that's what it's really about, you know, not to let school or learning just
become about standardized tests, you know, or playing the game of school, , but
instead really being about real learning.
So you've worked now internationally for many years with international schools, and
you said, you moved because you wanted to move away from this whole, testing base,
so do you find that the international schools don't have such a heavy reliance
on testing or how are they different?
Well, definitely when I first moved overseas, , definitely there wasn't that
big reliance or over reliance, I would say, because of course it's not that, you
know, I think in an ideal world, I think standardized tests could have their place.
Like, I do think for equity and access, we want to ensure that all students
are learning certain things that we're not, failing students, so to
speak, that we know all third graders had access to learning these things
about the world, like, that's great.
It's just when it becomes this over reliance on just this one assessment
and making it the be all end all.
So I think when I first moved overseas for sure.
International schools at that time are quite different.
And for me, it was exactly what I needed at the time.
It was like this breath of fresh air and reinvigoration that you
could be, you could have agency as a, as an educator again.
You could be creative and, yes, you still had your standards, the what that
you needed to teach, but how you taught it, there was more flexibility there.
I can say, you know, to speak candidly, though, that I do feel that,
unfortunately, it does feel like more and more international schools right
now are becoming more of what the U. S. was 10 years ago and are focusing more
on standardized tests and are making that kind of the be all end all and you
know, and my heart, the part of my soul and heart are like, No, don't like of
all the things to emulate that's not it.
I think to see that, most students in the US are not it.
Um, and it's not like we're outperforming other places in
the world or something like that.
So it's like, why do you want to emulate that system?
It's not working.
It's not actually helping learners grow.
And we end up with a lot of young adults , who haven't developed their
critical thinking skills because, and at no fault of their own, they
weren't given the opportunity, you know, and they're not curious and
they're not like lifelong learners and communicators and all these things.
It is unfortunate, but I have seen a shift, I'd say, in the past, probably
past six ish years of more and more and more push towards standardization,
kind of more push towards so many things that don't work, um, rather
than emulating the things that do work.
So it is, it does tend to be region based, though.
It's certainly not all international schools, but in certain regions of the
world, that's been a big, a big shift.
That's interesting.
So, inquiry often, I guess, disrupts, right, traditional teaching methods.
It's something that people feel uneasy about but for you, what assumptions do
you think teaching and learning that educators do that they need to unlearn
because they have this thing in their heads that inquiry doesn't quite cut it,
that if, if they're going to do inquiry, well, I hate that whole thing about do
inquiry because you don't actually do inquiry, but if they're going to become
inquiry based learning practitioners
something else is going to give they feel perhaps that kids are going to lose
out on stuff because they also I think very often feel that it means they have
to give up on explicit instruction.
So there's this assumption that they have.
So what would you say to schools and administrators and teachers,
how do they unlearn this?
So that they can make the shift to be, I guess, is what you've
just described, which is actually so much better because we've seen
that the alternative isn't working.
Exactly.
Um, yeah, I think.
You know, there are so many misconceptions about inquiry based learning and
teaching and you just unpacked, I think, the biggest ones there of that
there's no explicit teaching inside inquiry.
That's simply not at all true.
In fact, so much of of inquiry based learning is about being intentional, like
intentional design, intentional teaching.
There's a beautiful quote lifted up from a research study from several years
ago now that says, in an inquiry, an inquiry based learning, explicit teaching
occurs just in time, not just in case.
And I love that.
I, when I'm working with schools and teams, like we kind of lean on that as
almost like a mantra and all that we do.
We're like, are we being just in time or just in case?
Because too often what we have to unlearn, so to speak, you know, going back to your
question is, is the being just in case.
Like a lot of times as teachers, we feel like, well, I better say one more thing,
just in case I better like show them how to do this, just in case I better
like do this for them, just in case.
And instead, like first letting them go off and give it a go, trust them
to try set up the kind of culture in your classroom where they're
going to be figuring out kind of people will often say, and so
they'll go and they'll get to have some productive struggle and healthy challenge.
And so much more learning comes from that than just someone else doing it for you.
Right?
So I think that that big idea of just in time, not just in case, however, if you
see that a child has no idea what to do, you also don't know what you don't know.
So, , there's also another great quote we lean on a lot that, uh, as an old proverb
that says you don't teach ducks how to swim by throwing eggs in the water, right?
So we're also, we're not throwing eggs in the water, right?
Like it's this beautiful intentional equilibrium of
just in time, not just in case.
So you do explicitly teach.
Of course, you have an important role as a teacher and as an activator of learning.
But it's that, you know, you know, that when you explicitly teach, you know,
you're doing it with intention that you're like, they, they need, this is
a skill or or a strategy or, or an idea that they'll need to use again and again.
I'm going to model this for them or teach them this, show them this.
And then you let them then, of course, most importantly, apply it, right?
Then they'll need to take whatever you did explicitly teach and actually get
to still give it a go and be a figuring out kind of person and all those things
that it's not just you talking at them.
Um, so I think that's, that's that shift and kind of with that, I guess would be.
Sometimes helping teachers and coaches, coordinators, whoever it might be,
think about how they've really learned.
I find that often helps create a shift.
It's like, when have you really learned something?
How did you know you really learned it?
And if you have them take a few minutes to reflect and even talk together about
that, they realize, Oh, all the things that they say they really know how to
do, whether it's, you know, surfing or baking or reading, writing, whatever
they're like, I had to actually do it.
And I had to make some mistakes and I had to reflect.
And it's like, that's, that's inquiry.
Like you had to ask questions, you know, like that's.
That's the process.
So I think those big pieces of asking and doing and thinking or
inquiry, action, reflection, like that's just how we learn anything.
Like if I want to learn how to do a handstand, I'm going to be looking
up like YouTube videos, reading books about it or what have you, tutorials.
I'm going to inquire, then I'm going to have to actually try it.
And do it and mistakes and have reflective practice to get better
and better to own the skill.
So you have to like live it.
And I think, helping, helping teachers and, and educators remember that,
Oh yeah, anything I truly learn,
I had to live it.
Um, I guess it's, there's a difference between covering and learning.
And so that's the other big reminder is we'll often talk about how learning
doesn't happen outside of the learner.
So you can feel like you're covering a lot, , Oh, I covered this, we
covered this, we covered this.
And that can feel, I guess, safer or feel like I know I covered it.
And so that's big learning.
But actually if they might have learned anything, you know, like you
covered it, but they didn't learn it because you get to actually live it.
Um, so yeah, I think a lot of that and as you said so well earlier that then
they'll actually be able to do more.
I know sometimes I'm giving parent workshops as well when I'm visiting
schools and just recently I was at a school in Asia and, um, we had a parent
workshop on inquiry rich mathematics and really helping parents see, you know,
it's not about rote memorization and doing like math facts as fast as you can.
It's more about understanding the concepts of mathematics and and being
able to have that productive struggle and strategic thinking and like we
care way more about the thinking than the answer and a parent came up at the
end and was like, Oh, this was great.
And it's definitely what I want for my child.
And she said, but you know, I still have to say, though, I am worried,
though, like, the reality is they have to take these tests and exams for like
university and like, what about the test?
And I was like, well, but if they do the kinds of problems we just
looked at together, because parents got to actually explore some of
the students would do by math games, they would play things like that.
It's like if they, if they were doing this instead, they'd get to that problem
on the test and it would be like no sweat for them because the problem on the big
assessment is just like kind of a rope, they don't even have to think in the
way that they had to think this whole year in math, you know, so they'll get
that to that assessment and be more than capable to do that kind of thinking.
And, you know, that really struck a chord with the parent.
They're like, oh, yeah, of course, like, I haven't thought about it in that way.
Which is exactly kind of what you were saying that it, no,
you're not losing anything.
Kids are still going to get that knowledge they need, the content knowledge, the
background knowledge, the skill knowledge, it's that we're not going to stop there.
You know, they're going to get more than that, uh, with all the thinking skills
they'll develop and the mindset and just the approach to learning the stance to
learning that they'll develop just as a person, you know, as a human being.
So.
I love how you said that, we all learn by experience and by doing it.
Cause I've often said to people, think back about your own learning.
You can't remember a thing you learned at school, except the things, well, I
do anyway, I only remember the things that I, that were hands on, I remember
the things I did where I actually physically got involved and made
something or was working on something
physically using my hands.
I don't remember anything else.
No, I know.
Yeah.
You know, so and then the other, the side of the coin is that if we know
what works and what didn't work for our own schooling, you can't replicate
for others what you didn't enjoy or what didn't work for yourself.
And I think, we've grown up with a system, and then we get to stand in front
of the class and then we try and replicate the way we were taught, but it didn't
work, you know, and we didn't enjoy it.
And, , we had no agency and we don't remember anything.
So , I do think that we need to reflect on that and Is what
I'm doing really valuable?
Is what I'm doing really working?
Are children genuinely learning?
Because it's interesting, the other day I saw a quote somewhere that
said, just because children are engaged doesn't mean they're learning.
So that kind of, I think, they were talking about just because , you can
see a child sitting at a desk filling in a worksheet or being quiet, or
they look as if they're working,
doesn't actually mean that they're learning.
And that really struck a chord with me too, because how often don't children
just go through the motions perhaps, but at the end of the day, and we all
did that, when you come to, to your university exams and stuff, you know,
you're cramming, cramming, cramming, and you're learning and you're.
And then a day later, you don't even remember anything about the exam or
what you learned, so I think that's, and it's very often because you didn't
get that hands on experience, , to try it out and practice the skill.
So that's very true.
Tonya, there's another thing that I want to ask you is that another
traditional teaching strategy is this thing about teaching in silos where many
educators all over schools are still very much teaching separate subjects.
So, they might have a literacy block, they might have a mathematics
block, they might have then a block for science and a block for
humanities, whatever it might be.
And children don't really see the connection.
between subjects or the connection that they can make in their
learning to something else.
It's that whole application, part of the equation that sort of falls flat.
In your work that you've done in all these years, how have you helped teachers
to identify meaningful connections that they can make between subjects so
that they can design cross curricular activities that break apart those silos
where children can actually see the connection to other
areas of their learning?
Yeah, I think, there's several ways , as with many things and as an inquiry
folks, we know there's not one way.
So there's actually a few different ways we often look at for this idea
of, authentic transdisciplinary, um, learning or interdisciplinary learning.
Because for sure, what we all have seen is either what you just
mentioned, like silos, and there's no connections at all, or especially
a lot of international schools, what they've experienced is, okay, we're
making connections, but they're like forced and fake, and they feel like,
well, those even the connections we try to make, aren't actually working.
So I think, kind of two big things that help with both of those.
One, one is, um, are we designing things that are really what
we would call concept based?
Like truly concept based, not just topic based.
And again, it doesn't mean you're getting rid of anything.
You're still going to explore the topics you need to explore.
Like, let's say you need to explore certain time periods in history.
Or, you know, a certain part of science, like force and motion or
light and sound or something, um, you need to teach that content.
Like kids need to know things about the world.
Those are wonderful things to know about.
So that's not going anywhere.
However, can you like put an umbrella or lens over that?
That is truly conceptual.
So big concepts like patterns, perspective, systems, function.
If you truly make it about the concept, then children can make
connections all across their day.
And it's more about I'm learning about patterns in the world, not I'm
learning just only about habitats
or something.
So for example, I was working with, , a team that was, in
their system, third grade, that would probably be like year three.
I think also system or year four, , and they had a lot of
science standards around weather.
So initially they had this whole weather unit they had designed.
And it was about how we look for patterns inside weather to like make predictions,
but it was still like all about weather.
So instead we just said, well, what if we just took the word weather out of our like
central idea or big idea for the unit?
Kids are still going to need to learn about weather, but what if your big idea
was just that people look for patterns to form theories and make predictions
because if we make it the pattern unit instead now, , art can be involved.
Physical education can be involved because like patterns are everywhere,
you know, maybe in looking at patterns don't know different team games and the
patterns you make and play or the patterns you make to form decisions together.
You can see, or maybe it's a dance unit, just depends on
what's happening at that school.
But and then in art, there's patterns in, different art, uh, everywhere styles,
different mediums, all sorts of things.
There's, and then in math, you could still be learning about your addition
facts or multiplication facts and noticing the patterns within, , something, times,
something is always an even number.
Like, what does that mean?
You know?
So then all across their day, and so we even designed this little
for kids to do some assessment as learning, like some self-assessment.
They had their own little sort of checklist, so to speak of the big ideas
about patterns like I can find patterns and use them to make predictions and they
saw how they started collecting evidence.
The children themselves of, you know, and math, here's a place where I noticed
a pattern and it helped me form a theory or prediction and reading, here's I made
a theory about a character and, P. E. I made like, we, we noticed a pattern here.
And that's, they were realizing that what they were learning
was all conceptually connected.
And that was way more powerful than something like if we'd kept it just
about the topic, weather then, PE teachers are trying to have kids, I
don't know, build like a human snowflake or, music teachers are like, sing a
song about the seasons or something.
That's not really transdisciplinary learning.
You're not going between, across, and beyond the
disciplines, as we'll often say.
Instead, you've just made a science unit, if the unit's only about weather, it's
really not, you know, transdisciplinary.
It's a subject specific unit, which has its place too, but it
could be a missed opportunity.
So I think that's a big one.
, Are units truly conceptual?
Have we helped design for truly conceptual connections?
And then children are just living that conceptual understanding across
their day, across their weeks.
And then the other big thing would be how all disciplines, like if
you think reading, writing, math, can be a vehicle for inquiry.
So the other big way that we often make connections is to think,
whatever we're studying, how will we use this as a vehicle?
Uh, literacy is a great example for this, definitely not the only example, but, if
when you are studying something that's more science or social studies focused, do
you have the children actually digging in and reading about it and writing about it?
Because too often what we do is we do all the thinking for them, right?
We take the, okay, we're learning about habitats.
I'm going to make like some Google slides about habitats, bring kids
together to the carpet, show them these important bullet points about habitats.
Like, well, then you just did all the thinking for them.
Like, why not give them an age appropriate article to read about habitats?
So they have to do the thinking.
They have to do the digesting.
They have to do the figuring out, and make sure it's interactive.
They're discussing it.
They're, like you said, they're not just engaged by staring at the paper.
You know, they're going to make their thinking visible.
They're going to discuss and collaborate with others, but actually have them
dig into the content where then.
You're doing reading and writing and speaking and listening and science
or social science or what have you all at the same time because you're
using it as a vehicle for inquiry.
That's really fabulous.
Tonya, the other thing that I notice a lot of teachers ask is
that with inquiry, they'll say, Oh, but the kids are so interested.
And when we talk about being agentic, they say, well, how do I honor
children's personal interests when they have their own concepts or, units
of inquiry or their own curriculum, whatever that is to get through.
And then you have a child coming in and they have their own interests.
So very often they find it difficult, I think, to balance what they need to cover
or what they need to do in a classroom situation with children's own interests.
Do you have any advice for those moments of how we can honor children's own
interests and at the same time, continue with whatever it is that we're doing
to meet our standards and outcomes?
Yeah, definitely.
I think, there's a lot packed into that.
So a few things would be kind of like with inquiry.
There's lots of misconceptions about agency too, so it doesn't
mean just do whatever you want.
I mean, society would be kind of terrible if we all just did whatever we wanted.
Right.
So, I often lift up a quote from Edward D. C. who spent, like, his life's work
studying self motivation and autonomy and agency, and I'm paraphrasing here, but
he talks about how true autonomy is about relatedness, like, true autonomy is about
considering others and the environment, and so I think, for for many schools,
we we use a common definition for agency, definitely IB schools, for example, use
the definition voice choice ownership.
And I think that's a great concise way to define agency voice choice ownership.
However, I think a lot of times the ownership piece gets overlooked.
And make no mistake, like choice and voice are are key.
And choice is like the gateway to really helping children exercise their
agency, when we have choice that's motivating, but it's almost like
that's the low hanging fruit, don't want to think like, oh, I let kids
choose what paper type they use today.
So like agency done or something, you know, like a checklist instead.
It's like, that's great.
Yeah, give them that choice.
That's a good starting place, but going beyond that, like the ownership piece
of our children actually, exercising their self regulation skills.
Are they setting their own goals, monitoring their goals?
You know, self assessing, self adjusting, like that's true agency.
Are they considering their environment and the context and making sound decisions?
So we'll often talk about how agency is actually when you're strong in both
sound judgment and confident action.
That you're not stuck in the zone of like learned helplessness where you
just do, you just wait for someone else to do it for you, you know, like.
You can take confident action, but it's confident action with sound judgment.
So children, like with anything, like any skill, once again,
they need to live it, right?
They need to practice making decisions and actually make some mistakes so that
they become stronger decision makers.
So one thing would be that just honoring agency in general, you know,
are you making space in your days and your weeks for kids to get time
to make their own decisions and make mistakes and learn from that and self
assess and self adjust because that's where a lot of the true agency grows.
You know, that's what we want for them for life, that confident
action with sound judgment.
And then with all of that in mind, then thinking, okay, so yes, of course,
you have certain standards that by the end of the year, children need to have
experienced that content, that learning.
So knowing that your inquiry can at times have a scope, right, but
there's still so much opportunity for agency within that scope.
So one go to kind of practical lens, so to speak, is for teachers to think about what
Waltham call the five W's and an H, like who, what, when, where, why, how, and that
you always have the opportunity to give children agency and all of those things.
And so certain times of year, it will be open scope.
They get to choose all those things.
Who are they working with?
What are they learning?
How, how, you know, where will they set all of that?
But at other times, it's maybe you're choosing three of those and
children are choosing the others.
You know, maybe the what has already been determined because of certain core
standards that you're exploring right now.
But children get to choose where they sit in the room, they get to choose how.
Like, the, how of how they're going to create or showcase their learning, you
know, what they're going to show, that that's the agency lives inside there, too.
. And that's where, with many schools, we work on what's called
universal design for learning.
So, this idea, UDL, would be that there's multiple means of engagement
and multiple means of representation.
So again, you might all be exploring, um, migration, let's say, and that's
something you want children to learn about and know about, but that they
have lots of choice and, how they will express what they learned.
That's a big one for a lot of teachers to kind of open up space for is that, yeah,
your standard says this, but do children have to just show that they learned that
by taking this one test or doing this one paper or, you know, not conflating.
We often talk about don't conflate like the goal with the means.
The goal is they show understanding of this and this and this about migration,
let's say, but there's so many different ways they can show that they look.
So do you open up space for that?
Even if yes, at the end of the day, they need to, and we want
them to learn this standard.
So I think just thinking of the scope, also within, kind of the when
sometimes opens up choice for agency of what students are interested in,
like, in mathematics, we're often talking about adaptive math provocations
or adaptive math stations, but by the end of, like, two weeks, every
child has done every provocation.
But they chose when to do it, and that might sound simple, but actually that's a
big piece of like knowing, okay, these are core things I need to learn, but I have
some agency and like, what I feel like doing when, which one I want to do first.
Like, that's actually not a small thing, you know, that's, that's agency building.
So starting where you're at and thinking.
Where can I open up more space for agency because it's living up there, but that
it doesn't have to mean do whatever you want, or maybe you're doing a book club
unit can children have a choice, okay, there's these six books to choose from.
Go around to a gallery walk of all six.
Make a list of your top three, you will get one of your top three, you
know, and then that way you as a teacher can consider their social needs
or academic needs when forming book club groups, but you're also going to
make sure they get one of their top choices that they're interested in.
So I think just not feel like it has to be just a do whatever you want chaos
like agency actually involves a lot of intentional design if we really want to
help kids exercise their decision making.
So, I think, , those are a lot of the big pieces, and just kind of thinking
through them again that the biggest piece of agency would be if I look across
the unit where children actually self assessing self monitoring self regulating.
That it's not us helicoptering at all, or doing it for them, but letting
them actually be the decision makers.
And I think just a final thing to say, though, because I know a lot of teachers
I work with, and it sounds like going back to your initial question, this
is something you've, you know, heard a lot too, is though, is when children
are, of course, curious about something totally different than our standards.
You know, just there's go to tried and true, , kind of tools that
you can use, like having a sort of Wonderwall or parking lot, so to speak.
We're like, okay, they have, oh, that is such a juicy question.
Add that to our Wonderwall.
And then maybe you just save some space, like once a week.
Even once every two weeks if your schedule is really tight or you have a
chunk of time where then we're going to go back to our wonder wall and choose
one of each child choosing one of the biggest things they want to take some
time to explore and you've maybe even helped activate that by curating a few
possibilities of, you know, books they can look at, um, things they can research,
but that it doesn't have to mean.
That in that moment when they ask that question, you're going to derail all the
learning for the whole class community and study this other thing for 45 minutes,
like some teachers are like, Oh, no, the child asked this beautiful question.
We have to right now do that instead when really that's not equitable for
the community because you know all the other second graders need to learn some
other things right now, but having a kind of a ritual and routine where you
can still make space for that question.
And if they put their name and their wonder on the Wonderwall, you can even be.
A real kind of activator for them and then going to the librarian and asking
do you have some books around this and just giving that child those things to
look at that in their independent reading time, they can explore that more, in
their independent writing time if you're doing an information unit, kind of what
we talked about before the The W's and an H, like you might need to teach what
information writers do, but they can write about any topic they want, like
the skills of an information writer.
Every child does not need to write about the same thing, and I would say they
shouldn't be, you know, instead let them write about whatever they want.
So that would be a chance for them to explore some of the things from the
Wonderwall that they really want to learn about and teach others about,
you know, so just opening up space.
Yeah.
That's really good practical advice, Tonya.
And it really reminded me so much of, my time in a classroom.
And those are the kinds of things that I was doing.
And I just got that feeling back, it was just so, joyful to be in a room like that.
, I remembered with the, year twos, we have this change, uh, topic
in science growth and change.
And generally, you see the whole class does the life cycle of the frog or
whatever it might be, and I just think, oh my gosh, that's just so boring.
Imagine if you've got 25 kids and you do 25 different life cycles, instead
of just learning about a frog, you get 25 opportunities to learn about
different things.
So to me, that was always so exciting because I learned new stuff about strange
things that I, never known about, and it was so, I guess, empowering for the
children, because they had choice in what the topic was, but it still met
the outcome, but it was their own story.
And the other thing that was always so beautiful is that you then also saw
the real talents come out when you used to say to them, like you say, it's not
a free for all, but you have little bits that you can offer them choice
in, how they were going to show
their understanding and their learning.
And that was always so beautiful.
Like you would get those kids, very academic kids who wanted to write the
report and all that, and that's fabulous.
But then you also got those kids that they'd love to create, and so they
would make models and then they'd have to present and do an oral presentation
when they presented their model.
And that was still the exact same outcome, but just in a different way.
And I just found that brought so much positive energy to the classroom
and children saw that their ideas and their strengths were valued.
And so that was always something that gave me this really warm
and fuzzy feeling as an educator.
And I think it was something that children also valued because they saw
that their strengths were valued as well.
And so I've always felt really strongly that, that we need to give children those
opportunities to diversify the learning and you can still meet the outcome.
So that's really to me as a teacher, that's just so joyful.
And I just hope and wish that other educators can experience that joy
as well, because I think that's what makes teaching worthwhile.
Exactly.
And I think that's often a good like litmus test, so to speak,
certainly not the only way to know.
But like, if you're feeling the joy as a teacher, as a member of that
class community, I'm sure the children are feeling joy to feeling bored,
they're probably feeling bored too, , so remembering that, , I think,
um, recently I was working with the team and the focus with them was
writing and we were talking about how if you're like assessing student
writing and it's all the exact same.
Well, that's probably because we taught it like in a formulaic way.
You know, if you teach a formula, they're just going to do the
formula or the fill in the blank.
You know, but if you open up space, if you're studying mentor texts
that show different ways of doing it, then you're going to get voice.
You're going to get true communicators, true writers with craft because they're
showing you their own way of expression rather than just a fill in the blank, and
I think that can be applied to all the different disciplines, like we're saying
with that UDL lens in mind, so to speak.
I mean, you gave beautiful examples there that there's there's multiple ways to show
what you know about a certain outcome or goal, you know, a certain learning goal.
There's so many different ways to show what you know, and if we open up space
for that, then as a teacher, too, it's way more joyful to experience,
and even if there's things you need to assess, it's way more interesting.
Like you said, you know, you learn about so many different life cycles,
what they learned and what they know.
And so as a whole community of learners, like you feel that, and I think
from a bigger lens, that's sending a powerful message for them, just as
humans, that later in life, there's not one way to express yourself.
There's not one way to show knowledge.
There's not one way to have skill sets.
I think that's a good perspective to carry with you.
So I think there's a lot, a lot of power there beyond just beyond just
the academic learning, so to speak.
There's so much more that we're learning and teaching as well.
There's so much I hear, and even when I go on to things like Reddit groups, for
example, I see so many people complaining that their students are disengaged, that
they have, apathy, that they are not just bored, but they're boring because
they have no interest in learning.
So for me, inquiry is the antidote, right?
So do you have any practical advice for educators when they
are faced with reluctant students.
How do you bring them out?
Do you have any advice that you've seen in your international
schools and in your experience?
Yeah, you know, I think it's, it's also so fascinating in a way to see,
just what, what we do as humans.
And I know a few years ago, there's a wonderful psychologist, Adam Grant.
I definitely recommend all books.
He's fantastic.
And he was talking about how, when he's digging into the research,
we haven't actually lost our attention and focus as humans.
Cause a lot of people complain, not only about students, but about adults too,
that we've like lost our ability to focus.
And he said, actually what studies show is if we, if it's something we're interested
in, we can still focus just fine.
That ability is.
It's still there.
It's when something's horribly boring or like we don't want to do it that
suddenly we can't focus at all.
And so that's kind of it.
It's like you said, it's if they're disengaged, it's, it's for a reason,
like that should make us curious, you know, rather than it making us
frustrated, I think it should make us curious of like, why is that?
Why, why are they not engaged in this?
And often the answer is, yeah, we're not letting them live it like
productive struggle feels good.
Healthy challenge feels good.
As the saying goes, the brain that does the work does the learning.
So like who's doing the work and we want that brains on
engagement that that feels good.
So I'd say first of all, making sure that we're not just talking at children,
you know, we're not and teams like I work, all the way up through senior year
and that at whatever age we're working with, we're not just talking at them.
They're really experiencing.
They have to dig in.
They have to think because that is engaging.
It's pretty boring to not get to actually think and try and do and figure out.
Those that are seeming very if students are seeming very apathetic.
Again, it's probably what we would call learned helplessness.
And I often say, you know, emphasis on the word learned.
They've learned it somewhere.
Um, and so whether it's at home, whether it's past school experiences
in earlier years, whether it's from us unintentionally, they've learned
to just sit there and do nothing.
Research 1970s.
And it's called being a warm demander.
And so I think that would be something really important for all listeners to keep
in mind is, are we being warm demanders?
And it talks about how for culturally responsive teaching,
children need high expectations.
They need what we'd call active demandingness, and, and when
I say children, that's all the way up through teens too.
And even as adults, we need that.
We also need warmth, personal warmth.
So like relationships first, that's not just fluff, like research shows again
and again, no significant learning without significant relationships.
So build relationships with your students first.
And, and from like a practical lens, one go to tip would be to use what
we call positive presuppositions.
So.
presume positive things about all your students and all means all.
So when you're talking to them, for example, if you have a learner
who maybe you feel is always appears to be disengaged and
apathetic, going up to them and being like, Oh, so what's your plan?
What will you try next?
Instead of asking, do you have a plan?
Right.
Do you have a plan indicates like, I think you might not,
you know, instead of positive.
Presume that of course they do.
They're the kind of learner who makes a plan.
So you're like, what's your plan?
And then they probably stop and think, oh, , wait, and maybe they didn't have
a plan at all, but because you asked it in that kind of way, they're like, well,
I was thinking maybe I might, and they start to make a plan, you know, or.
What have you, what have you done when you've had this kind of problem before
you're just assuming they've done something before they are strategic,
there are problems all that you can take any question, , or how did a
conversation with your partner help you?
You might even know as a teacher that you've kind of watched them with their
partner and it has real meaningful partner talk, but instead of going up
and being like, well, did you talk to your partner or why aren't you like
talking well with your partner instead going up and just being like, how is a
conversation with your partner helped you.
And again, you'll kind of almost see the wheels turn and they're like, Oh, well,
actually, you know, they did tell me that, you know, and, and they start to become
that figuring out kind of person because they see that you believe they are.
At one time, actually, I was in actually in Australia at a school, and we were in,
I think it was a year, year five class, I think, and you know when I'm because
I'll go in a lot of times when I visit schools, I'll go into the classrooms
and teach and like teachers get to observe me teaching so I'll go in and
teach with their students and just to see some inquiry practices in action.
And I always intentionally, , look for kind of the hot spot, so to
speak, you know, like, I'm not going to go and just talk to the child
who's clearly fully in, into it.
I don't think that'd be as helpful for the teachers versus seeing, like,
let's work with all, all students in the room and show what's possible.
So there were these two boys and they were, we had, it was during
what we would call a mini lesson.
Like they were all down on the carpet.
We were gathered together as a whole group.
And I was having them turn and learn, like turn and talk together.
And there were these two boys on the outskirts of the circle, you know, you
could tell they were kind of like had, they were discussing, but you just could
tell that they were kind of used to being on the outskirts and not doing as much.
So I went over and asked them like, Ooh, what are you thinking?
And they paused and, and they told me what they thought.
They each, they kind of did the side smile at each other, you know, as they're
adolescents, like, Oh, I guess we have to come up with something we were thinking,
you know, um, and they said something.
And I was like, Oh, that's so interesting.
And you could see the shock.
That I, like, value, that I said what they said was interesting.
Um, and then I asked them, I said, What's your names?
And they told me their two names.
And I said, could I share that with everyone else when we
come back together in a moment?
And they said, I'll never forget it.
They said, Well, I think they already know our names.
I think everyone here knows it.
They thought I wanted to share their, I'm like, no, no, I
want to share your thinking.
Like what, and that was though, uh, a sign to me that they don't often get
asked to like, do you know what I mean?
Like, I think they were just shocked that I was going to lift up their thinking.
And you could see them sit a little taller when we brought everyone back together.
And I was like, you know, I was just talking with so and so and so and so, and
they said something that I was like, I hadn't even thought of that before, you
know, and I lifted up what they said.
And it was like, you, again, you like literally see them
sitting up a little taller.
And so all of that is to say, I think, start with relationships, and
positive presuppositions and show them with that warm demand or stance,
uh, research says you have to earn the right to demand engagement and effort.
As a teacher, you have to earn the right to demand engagement and effort.
So I think, showing that respect and honor and value, and then you can demand,
then when they want to just kind of not engage, you can be like, oh, well,
you know, if they say, oh, I'm finished.
I mean, like, oh, great show me, show me, you know, where you did this
and that and, and then they realize they haven't and then they do it,
you know, so you're still holding them to high expectations, but it's
because you, you've earned that right.
And then I guess just what we talked about earlier like where can you open
up choice because that's so motivating.
So again, if it's reading and you're, you're looking at like a deep study of
character, well, they could be reading any book with characters, right?
They don't have to read the same book, any book with characters.
They can practice the skills you're teaching to analyze characters.
So if they want to read this book that they love.
More power to them like they should there should be this joy and same thing
and information reading and writing same thing in art, you know, we're
thinking across the disciplines like in any discipline, you can find that space
for where can they make those choices.
And that's going to make them much more engaged as well.
You know, I think that's, that's human, right.
That's excellent, and really such practical and thoughtful advice.
Thank you for sharing that, with us.
Listen, we're coming to the end, but what I'd like to ask you is, can
you share a time that you've helped educators transform their classroom is
there something that you can share with us that just shows how inquiry has
transformed teachers and students life.
Yeah, that's such a great question and you asking it just made me think it kind
of made my heart just fill because I realized, wow, what a blessing for me
that I can think like you can ask that I'm like, I can actually think of quite
a few schools, and that's beautiful.
Like I hadn't really thought about that, that it's like, wow, what a gift.
I feel so fortunate to be able to work with so many great educators who've,
who've jumped in and have transformed, because I think we can always outgrow
ourselves, like myself included.
I always want to be learning and growing and transforming.
Um, I think the biggest thing that's helped.
So, so yes, I can share some examples and from multiple schools.
And the schools where it's happened have been the schools where it
wasn't just a one and done pursuit.
I really see myself not just as a consultant, but as a strategist.
So strategizing with schools, what are their needs?
What are their values and designing something often new just for them or
synthesizing things just for them.
And then working together for several years, actually.
So getting to make multiple points to the school, really becoming a partner.
Like we know each other, we know each other well, , and I've seen complete
transformations of approaches where like one, one school I work with
just wonderful teams and educators.
And I've been working with them for, going into, I think our fourth
year now with like two visits a year, every school year, two onsite visits.
Even some online sessions in the midst of things too at times to
kind of catch up and follow up, I'll zoom in to like their team meetings
and things every now and then.
And it's like we really know each other so you've built that trust and I think
that leads to that transformation too.
But they've completely Like their whole approach to mathematics has changed
from, you know, a more what we might call conventional approach to an inquiry
rich approach, and they are just full on living it, you know, going from not
really being sure what to do, feeling like the only they can just only teach math
the way they learned it, which is very rote and conventional to now, designing
their own rich math tasks and ensuring there's time for a whole group, small
group and one on one experiences and
it's just completely different their, their time in mathematics looks
completely different than it did.
Um, and with another school, same thing, like three years of
partnership, but with them, it was writing and reading, uh, literacy and.
With them, it was though kind of starting with an opposite lens is they were
pendulum swings work both ways and they'd kind of swung they they approached me
initially as a school community being like we've kind of lost the idea of true
inquiry being intentional, like there's a lot happening that's just kind of
every doing whatever they want, and the sense of there's not cohesion, we're
not able to work together as a team.
And kind of this misconception that explicit teaching can't happen in inquiry.
So they actually need to help finding more equilibrium of like where and
how can explicit teaching live like in that just in time kind of way.
How can we have like a scope and sequence so that there is equity for all
learners but still have our own agency as teachers and still ensure there's
lots of space for curiosity and growth.
And so seeing some teachers who at first were quite adamant no, I don't want
like inquiry, like from their lens they passionately wanted it to be kind of do
whatever you want, to then them coming to me, you know, after, after even just the
first year together, them being the one advocating because they'd seen the power
of what their writers were doing and what their readers were doing and how much joy
they had and how much growth they had.
So just seeing that shift in individuals as well, I think was really powerful where
they can have a whole perspective change.
And again, not that they weren't an incredible educator to begin with,
because I can sincerely say they were, but they just had, I think sometimes, you
know, it's scary to try something new.
It's scary to like, go out and do something different.
And so to see at first being a little resistant to then wanting to like have,
just on their own, like extra little calls together, checking in, sending pictures
of what they're doing sending, you know, because they're seeing the power.
So I think the biggest shift is when you see the change in the students.
Of course, like, when you actually get to try it and you see it.
And so for a lot of my visits, again, I go into classrooms and teach,
and that's usually the biggest game changer, so to speak, is like, we're
not just going to talk theory, we're going to go in and like, do it.
And I think when teachers get to see their own students that they, that
maybe had seemed apathetic, now suddenly engaged, or that maybe they didn't think
, would want , to write that much or read that much or talk that much
or do whatever, suddenly they are.
Suddenly they're engaged and they're, and just from a few, just from
starting the lesson with a question and offering like some choice, you
know, like something that's simple.
It can seem like small tweaks and they see this whole shift in their environment.
I think that's where then as, of course, as an educator, you're
like, well, I want more of that.
Like, yeah, let's do whatever we need to do to have more of that
because, , but you have to see it.
I think if we only just talk about it, , It's just what we were saying.
We're kind of circling back to where we started.
Like we said with kids, they experience it, like, so do we as teachers who are
always learning and outgrowing ourselves.
So, all of that's to say, I think the biggest transformation comes when just
like we want for children, everything we say we believe for children,
like, do we believe it for ourselves?
Because that means teachers need time to live the inquiry
interplay of asking and answering.
Yeah.
And trying, doing, reflecting, thinking like they need that time and if we don't
give that time and space for them to really live it, you know, in a brains
on way and engage and do it and try it, it's probably just going to float away.
You know, the, the one day workshop, you'll, you'll spark like any time I
do do that, like I'll, I'll throw some sparks and there'll be some seeds.
But unless that teacher was already super motivated, because it was their
own personal interest or what have you, it's probably going to float
away, just like we would see with students at a younger age, you know.
The times when it sticks and takes root and transforms is when they get to
live their own inquiry, , and live the learning and try and, and make mistakes
and have a coach there to, to reflect on their mistakes and all of that.
Yeah.
I guess we're starting now to prioritize skills, right?
For example, even in the Australian curriculum, there are outcomes
that teachers have to meet in terms of skills, , that they teach,
that we're teaching children.
And this whole thing about adaptability and collaboration.
See that there's a future for inquiry going forward?
Because when you listen to things like, you know, John Hattie, for
example, saying in high impact teaching strategies, that inquiry doesn't work.
Inquiry doesn't work and kids aren't performing well and it's really a
waste of time and it doesn't make any impact on children's learning.
Is there a future for inquiry going forward?
I mean, I think there is, and obviously all of those educators and people
like yourself who've experienced it and lived it know that there is.
But what do we say to the naysayers?
Yeah, so there's, I I really appreciate John Hattie's work and I lean on
a lot of his research and work for how we support agency, actually.
And that students can be self assessors, self adjusters and
really have agency ownership.
Of their learning.
But you know, there's a great video clip.
Um, I'll see, I'll send it to you.
Cause maybe we can add it with like the link to the podcast from John Hattie.
And he talks about this, this very thing you're describing where really
the reason why, what he believes from the research he's done so far, that
the reason why inquiry is often seen as
less impact than some of these other high impact moves is he thinks that
the studies they the meta analyses they brought together it's that
inquiry hasn't been done well.
If you're doing well, he says, if you're doing inquiry well,
it could be quite different.
And so he talks a lot about and I talk, I do a lot of work with this with teams
I work with to have, do we design again, going back to that being intentional?
Do we design a unit or a bend a section of a unit?
With the spiral of surface, deep and transfer learning in mind.
So it kind of goes back to that just in time, not just in case.
When inquiry is seen as not impactful, it's when we're actually not doing
just in time, explicit teaching, and we're not doing some surface learning.
We're just throwing kids in, we're throwing eggs in the water, right?
And we go back to that proverb, we're like, all right, we're gonna like,
explore this off, off you go, go explore.
And I'll just kind of be here.
, we also talk a lot about how that's the difference between being a
facilitator and being an activator.
So trying to move from a misunderstanding of, oh, as teacher,
we're just facilitator, which.
It isn't a bad thing.
I think that term started in a good way, but it's sometimes misunderstood for where
teachers think as long as I just have the materials I facilitated, I created the
activity and the materials off you go.
Instead, no, you have a huge role and a huge impact as a teacher,
like good teachers matter.
So you need to be there as an activator.
And so if you're in the midst of the learning, in the midst of the inquiry,
your brain's on and hands on with the kids, you're meeting with small groups
and coaching in, you're coaching one on one and conferring one on one.
Like, if you're doing that, like, when kids go off to live the
work and to live the learning.
You can't be, you know, checking your emails or hanging things up the wall just
because oh, they're all like learning.
They're engaged.
So I'll just go do this other stuff.
No, that's when you're doing your most powerful teaching.
So I think this mix of understanding that, inquiry can be very, very
powerful pedagogy and there's plenty of research to back that up.
However, as with probably any pedagogies, it has to be done well.
And so to make sure you do plan, kind of think of your unit as a
journey, you know, as a storyline.
And so how do you teach some initial surface learning so
that children can go deep?
And so that children can transfer because if you don't have the surface learning,
they probably will just be eggs in the water and they're not going to learn.
And those are going to be the studies where it's like, oh, they
actually, this wasn't effective.
They didn't, they didn't walk away with a lot of knowledge
and understanding and skills.
Um, so that, that I think would be one big piece.
And then, yeah, and then on the side, The skills end of things, you know, I think,
um, not all schools I work with are IB, but a lot of them are, and we talk a
lot about approaches to learning skills, ATL skills, which are like critical
thinking skills, creative thinking skills, communication skills, social skills.
And that those are really important too.
And I think inquiry just helps that all the more, you know, inquiry,
if you have to go off and live the learning, you're going to have to
collaborate and communicate and think.
And so you're building those skills and, and this day and age, especially,
I think that's really important.
There's, um, you've probably seen by our conversation.
I love my quotes.
I'm a big quote collector.
There's a quote on, from years ago, actually, I know that AI is like the big
thing right now, artificial intelligence, but this quote is from like over a decade
ago, I believe, and it and the author says, , you know, we were so worried that
machines will start thinking like humans.
But we should be worried instead that humans might start thinking like machines.
And it was like, oh, touche, you know, like, mic dropped, like, it's true.
And I feel like if we're not teaching in an inquiry rich way, we will, we've
already seen it happen, there's a lot of young adults that go out into the world
and they're just thinking like a machine, like, tell me what to do and I'll do it.
You tell me what to do and I'll do it.
But other than that, I don't, I don't think on my own at all.
You know, and then you think from a larger society lens, I mean, things
like social media, like Facebook or whatever, like people will just reshare
posts, that you're like, how in the world could they think this is true?
Like, I'll see people share something that is clearly.
Not true information like something ridiculous like to you and me,
we think that's ridiculous.
Why would they share that?
And they're sharing it wholeheartedly thinking it's true.
Like they didn't exercise their critical thinking.
You know what I mean?
They, they believe if they see it, if someone puts it
out there, it must be true.
Right?
And so like that, those are the skills we really need to teach is critical thinking,
creative thinking, thinking for yourself.
You know, investigating, so that they're not just going off and rotely
thinking like machines, but they're thinking like a human, you know?
Before we started recording, , Tonya and I were having a long, long chat before
we actually pressed the record button.
And we were talking about, my sons who've just, now started the workforce
and they've finish their degrees.
But what we didn't say, Tonya, what I didn't share was that everything
that they did in their degree with those skills that we actually teach in
inquiry, it's not anymore that, you just sit in a little room and you
study and then you regurgitate it.
Almost every single thing they did was through collaboration was
required them to work with others.
It required them to do research.
It required them to write lengthy reports.
It required critical thinking.
It required analysis of data.
And to me, whenever, they shared what they were doing with me, I always
thought, gosh, that's exactly inquiry.
, when we talk about preparing children for the future, And having
the skills to navigate a future.
It's only those inquiry skills that we learn whilst we're doing
it, whilst we're in there, knee deep, elbow deep in that process.
That is what's going to stand kids in good stead for the future.
So I think that that's, that was pretty pertinent because Yeah, I've seen it
sort of firsthand myself in terms of the skills that kids are using in
the future, which is really now and going forward are those skills of
collaboration, critical thinking, problem solving, really important.
Tonya, this has been an amazing conversation and I've
just absolutely loved it.
And so my last question to you is how do you stay curious?
There's probably a few ways, but my biggest one is I, I do love to read.
I think I mentioned that in passing earlier, like I'm such a reader.
So for me, I prefer like versus, not that I don't sometimes watch videos or, or
listen to different, you know, , lectures or things like that as ways to learn or
take courses and, you know, all of that, done all of that, still do all of that.
But my biggest way that keeps me curious is I just like kind of voraciously read.
And now I do love, of course, reading, fiction and then things
like that, light reads for fun.
But as as an educator and, you know, from a professional lens, I'm always
reading like professional reads and I think like just reading, reading and
and also reading the research as well.
, One of my favorite things to do is if I really like a
professional read, I go to the,
the back of the book, you know, where they list all of their resources
and the studies they leaned on to then go read the studies myself.
And because that I think can be really, just fascinating to see.
First of all, that sometimes unfortunately studies get taken out of context.
So again, we ourselves have to use those critical thinking skills
and be like, Oh, well, that's not actually what this was saying.
Other times it just leads you to just, yeah, new knowledge.
Um, so I think just that.
That reading widely, and deeply, I think helps a lot too, because
then you see there's not one way.
Like, I think the biggest thing that keeps me curious is, like,
I really, really have experienced myself that there's not one way.
And so I'm never gonna feel like, oh, well, this is the one way.
You must do it this way.
Even with, even with core values, like a core value, as we've discussed today
is, I do believe in honoring, , agency, and I do believe in living inquiry.
But I also know there's not one way to do that.
You know that there's different ways that can look at each school
and each country and each context.
And so I think that naturally helps keep me curious because
there's always more to learn.
I'm never, I don't think I could ever be done learning, um, and just
learning of different ways and different perspectives and different things.
So, um, yeah, I think just thankful to have had the experiences of
seeing there's not one way, because I do feel like that changed a lot.
Yeah.
If I think back to when I grew up, like growing up in a small town, you know, in
the U. S., the world, it seemed like there were just only a certain few set of ways,
but then the more you travel and the more you visit and the more you experience
and the different people you meet, you see that, oh, no, definitely not one way.
Um, and I'm so thankful for that.
Um, and then just reading, reading, reading, love to read.
So that's my biggest way to kind of keep growing my curiosity.
Amazing!
Tonya thanks for coming on to Blooming Curious today.
We've had such a fabulous chat and I hope that everybody who listens today
really takes away so many fantastic deep gems from you because you're just
such an incredible educator and an incredible teacher, not just to children,
but to educators all over the world.
So thank you for the work that you do and thanks for being here today.
I so appreciate it.