Today on Blooming Curious, we welcome Victoria Crosson of Learning by Inquiry.
Victoria is a Canadian inquiry educator who's passionate about inquiry based
learning and helping kids discover their passions and interests.
Victoria is passionate about helping children develop lifelong
skills like critical thinking, collaboration, and perseverance.
So Victoria, welcome to Blooming Curious.
Very happy to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Absolute pleasure.
And for those people listening, I found Victoria online, about a year ago,
I'd say, and Victoria has a fabulous resource online, which I'm sure she'll
tell you all about later, but Victoria today is the absolute perfect person
for us to talk about inquiry and
something even more special that is very much part of an inquiry
teacher's, strategy kit that inquiry teachers can use when teaching.
So I want to kick off, Victoria, can you share something about your
teaching journey and how you came to embrace inquiry based learning?
Sure.
Yeah.
Um, so formally, I, Took a ConEd program in, in 2008 and,
and finished that in 2013.
, and from there I sort of had a, a mixed bag of experiences in, um,
public and private schools, both here in Canada and , in England.
Um, so when I graduated, . I started working for a local, uh, international
college and I did some ESL summer camp work with them and then shortly after
that I was whisked away to, England and the national curriculum there
is so vastly different from what I learned about in my Con Ed program and
it was really there that I started.
It was sort of very eye opening for me to see some of the similarities that existed
but also how starkly different their curriculum is and how they teach students
and sort of, you know, how their program is in terms of what they expect from their
students and how they go about actually, um, testing their students and, and
seeing how well they've been successful.
And really, my, my journey to becoming a teacher started so young, actually,
um, with my, my little sister who I noticed would struggle a lot with, , with
her homework, especially math, right?
We all have a story of, you know, sitting at a kitchen table with our parents
and trying to do, like, math homework.
Like, I feel like everybody has that kind of a funny story, right?
And I noticed so often that she would struggle with it and, and so.
Um, I thought to myself, like, I wish there was a way for me to help her and a
way to make this make sense for her and for her to not hate the subject, right?
And, um, so that was really something we laugh about now, but something
that really sparked my interest in teaching and, um, You know, contrast
that with me being in England.
I saw a lot of the same struggles with students.
You know, they just weren't getting what was being taught to them.
It wasn't being taught in a way that I felt was really benefiting the students.
Um, maybe in terms of, you know, writing a test and preparing for a test, but
it's, uh, didn't really give them the skills that I thought were really
important, like critical thinking and collaboration and things like that.
And, They just weren't engaged.
And so I thought, how can I, without disrupting what the school has going
and without disrupting the national curriculum, how can I sort of
build this curiosity with students?
How can I make them feel comfortable with what they're doing, but present
it in a way that gives them a little bit more choice, a bit more
ownership, um, and helps them to, to feel confident to be curious.
And it was there that I found they just didn't have the time or the experience
with fostering those skills and, and being encouraged to ask questions
and investigate their curiosity.
Um, and I think it's important too to remember that inquiry is not
something that you just tack on, you know, it's not just something that
you do on in an afternoon, right?
It's, it's a mindset.
It's something that you have to cultivate.
It takes time, but I think, what works with inquiry is that students are just so
naturally curious and they want to Take an idea that they have and just go with it.
And so it's not something that you can just condense into a day
and say, oh you've done inquiry, you know, congratulations.
It's it's definitely something that a lot of students aren't used to but once
you sort of say, it's okay to be curious, it's okay to, um, to explore your thinking
and your questions, then that really, like, opens the door to what students
are really capable of, and it's such a foundation for them to really build on the
things that are important, in my opinion.
A few things that you said there, like inquiry isn't just something
you tack on, it's a mindset.
I think that's something that I've been talking a lot about.
But I'm curious as to, you said you found the system in England really, really
different to what you were used to.
So, do you think that the system was just, is it vastly different?
Is there inquiry already going on in the system that you were used
to, or did you just find that the English system, you said they were
very into, I guess, assessment and seeing what kids can do, right?
Was that your experience there?
Yeah, like I said , there are a lot of similarities in terms of
what they're expected to learn and how they test and things like that.
But, um, one thing that really stuck out to me was, um, a few things.
Really, I think what was really stark was, was just the emphasis
that they put on testing and how important rigorous testing is.
And it's, it's almost ingrained in them from a young age that when they do their
SATs tests, At the end of, uh, year six, for example, basically all the way back
uh, you know, year five, year four, year three, it is ingrained in their head
that they are preparing for the SATs and the SATs are the be all end all of,
you know, their high school and, you know, whether they go on to do their A
levels in specific courses or whatever.
That in itself is a different system than what we use in Ontario, but I
found that the, , the strictness and the structure and the teaching to the test.
is so much more apparent in the national curriculum.
And that's not to say that in Ontario there is no testing because there is.
We have EQAO, we have the literacy test in grade 10.
, But I, I found that in my experience in Canada, especially with student
teaching to finish my program, if a student had a question or they wanted to
know a bit more about something, there was a little bit more flexibility, um,
you know, for the teacher to sort of veer off topic for a little bit and say,
Oh, why, you know, why do you ask that?
What is what's prompting that curiosity?
And you have the time to sort of branch off and explore it a little bit, as long
as you sort of come back to the topic that you were, , talking about or the
activity that you're doing with them.
It was okay.
Whereas in England, um, and this could have just been something
that was a little bit more particular to the school I was at,
but I found that if a student had a question about something or wanted to
know more, there really wasn't time in the prescribed allotted period to do that.
You know, if math was an hour and 15 minutes, you had to allocate
10 minutes for this, 10 minutes for this, by 20 minutes, they
have to have this and this done.
And it just simply didn't work for a lot of students.
And it was very prescribed and it was sort of, you know, I would hear them
ask questions and I thought, I'm going to have to make a mental note of this
and come back to it because I just don't have the time to look at it now.
But unfortunately, as you know, it's kind of hard to go back to that
and try and get that spark again,
because by that point, they're like, well, I forgot about it, or,
you know, math is done now, right?
Yeah, it's actually quite frightening and scary how, as educators, we're often
just so driven by the curriculum and the content that we have to teach, that
that curiosity is pushed to one side.
And then we wonder why and I think Sir, Ken Robinson said that so wisely, is that
schools were killing kids' creativity, but I think schools were also killing kids'
curiosity in our quest to make these very academic children perform to a test, , and
that's something that has always concerned me because I think that curiosity is
far more important than a test score.
Test scores, I guess, at the end of the time when you have to graduate
and you want to go to university or further study, I guess, you
know, you need that test score.
But I think you're not going to get that test score anyway, unless you're curious.
And very often if you're teaching to the test, you study for
the test and we all did it,
I know I did it.
You've written the test and you don't remember a thing afterwards, you know,
but it's those things that you do.
It's those experiences that you have when you go through the process of
finding out that you actually remember.
And so, maybe at some point as we go on this mission to encourage
others to embrace this way of teaching, hopefully that will change.
Victoria, just, just tell me here.
Do you think there are other things also that come into play when we consider
the difference between an inquiry based, for , want for a better word,
an inquiry based experience versus a traditional non inquiry based experience?
I think, yeah, I think that, , there's a few key differences.
Just thinking about an experience I had, um, when I taught at a Montessori
school when I came back from England.
I found, fortunately, I had a great experience, um, in both England
and at the Montessori school.
What was great about the Montessori school is that , we had, obviously,
we had to teach the students, but we didn't have to adhere so
rigidly to , The Ontario curriculum.
So with the Ontario curriculum and inquiry learning, I find that when I would teach
with an inquiry approach, of course, the curriculum would inform my planning, and
I would take a lot of my, my topics and my big ideas and, you know, things I really
wanted the students to know, and I would sort of plan them in, but they wouldn't be
planned in so that the students would have to, you know, achieve a certain objective
by a certain date or anything like that.
Um, what I find is the biggest difference between.
The Ontario curriculum and teaching it in a traditional way versus an inquiry way
is that the students hit their objectives in an inquiry in a much more natural way.
Um, and I think that's, that's due to the interconnectedness in inquiry
where, you know, a student may be investigating something that interests
them, but they find that they end up investigating different facets of that
initial question or that initial curiosity, and it actually end up
learning more and touch on a lot of different subjects than what
they originally set out to do.
Like, you know, for example, if a student is really interested in, in
oceans, like I had a student, um, who was really interested in, in climate
change and what it was doing to the oceans and what it was doing to, you
know, the coral reefs, for example.
And so he sort of investigated why that's happening and ways that
we can prevent it practically.
And he ended up learning not just about preserving the oceans, but
also about how companies like oil companies, for example, like what,
how do they operate in the ocean?
What is their impact on the ocean?
Um, what are the impacts of things like traffic and congestion and pollution?
And so it went from just focusing on preserving the ocean to learning a lot
more about, you know, business concepts and learning about you know, environmental
protections and science concepts, you know, he learned about , the water cycle
and how that contributes to, you know, if, if something's arrived there, how does
that impact the water temperatures and how much rain we get, things like that.
And so with inquiry, I feel like what they're learning is much more organic.
It's much more natural.
But they're still hitting the objectives that they need to.
So we have to look at that and think there's a better way to teach students.
There's a, there's a way to get them to, to learn what we want them to,
but in a way that gives them ownership and, and it's something that's in tune
with what they're interested in and they feel like they, they have the
authority and it gives them confidence.
Right.
Totally correct.
I think also as educators, do you think that sometimes we struggle
as well to think cross curricula, that multifaceted approach?
Because I think that sometimes we box all the subjects into one little box.
You know, this is what we do in science.
This is what we do in, um, social studies.
This is what we do in math.
This is what we do in art.
And I think sometimes we forget that life is integrated and
Inquiry is also integrated.
So you can teach your science and your English and your maths all together.
It's not, you know, Jessica Vance always says it's not, um, an and or approach.
It's a, what does she say?
It's a, it's an and and more approach or something like that.
It's, it's not a choice between one or the other.
You can actually have it all right.
And I think if we can get through to people so that they can understand
it, when you are teaching this multidisciplinary way, reaching a
variety of subjects, you can actually also meet the outcomes of all these
other subjects by doing one task.
Like that child would have been doing probably writing a report,
perhaps, you know, including learning, the skills he needs.
Where do you look for answers?
, The kind of questions that you have to set.
So there's just so many skills that come with that.
As opposed to, okay, we're just going to, I'm going to give you the information.
Here's the information on, I don't know, coral reefs.
And then you're just going to regurgitate that and write a report on that.
I mean, that's not engaging.
So I think that does need to change.
And I love how that is changing and that you've seen that.
So that's, that's really, I think, a step in the right direction.
Victoria, provocations and invitations.
This is something that I, know that is part of an inquiry classroom.
It's something that I've seen a lot in your work, what you do.
You talk a lot about, provocations and invitations.
And I wondered if you could for our listeners explain the difference, because
I often think that there is some confusion between a provocation and an invitation.
So could you explain the difference between those two?
And when does one decide whether you're going to use a provocation
or an invitation, especially in an elementary or an early childhood setting?
That's a really good question.
Um, you know, I find that they're very similar and I think that might be part
of the reason why, people can't really differentiate or they're just not sure,
like, what is the actual difference, um, because they are so similar.
In my opinion, an invitation is something that encourages students to engage in a
specific type of play or, or activity.
Um, to me, it's.
It's something that encourages a student to engage with
something that you've set up.
So it's a really good way to introduce a new concept.
Um, and I'll, I'll go through a couple examples in a sec. On the other hand,
a provocation is, to me it's more like, You're provoking curiosity, like
I sort of hear that word and I think of the first few letters and I think
provocation, you're provoking something.
It's about inviting a response.
Yeah, like, like stimulating imagination and creativity so an example of an
invitation, um, so like, let's say that you, um, you're doing a new unit on
the environment or nature or something like that, you could set up a table
with, um, you know, rocks with flowers, twigs, shells, and you could write a
prompt on, , a whiteboard or, or, you know, a lot of people do these really
beautiful aesthetic, uh, little signs on the table that invite the student,
and, you know, it says something like, what can you create with nature?
And in this scenario, the students have an objective, like a specific
kind of skill or activity that they're intending to explore.
And a lot of times, , you would see this in like early childhood years or
younger grades when you want students to practice fine motor skills, for example.
So they're using something that you've provided, in this case twigs or
flowers, and they're creating something.
It doesn't matter what they create, but they're using those
objects in a purposeful way, right?
Whereas provocations, I find, I like to use them more with older students just
because they're a bit more open ended, um, and you use your students interests
as a starting point.
That's something that I like to make sure that I'm always doing is taking
what they're interested in and sort of using that as a, as a starting point.
And that's sort of their spark, right?
And, so for example, like say you were starting a unit or investigation, um,
into structures or forces or something like that, um, setting up a table
or a floor space kind of similar to an invitation with, , like building
materials for students to tinker with, or maybe some blueprints of a famous,
uh, Skyscraper or something like that.
, You may have those hanging around and you sort of, um, provoke them to do something
with those that you don't have to suggest that they recreate the structure.
You don't have to suggest that they build something specific.
But when you leave those things out, or you create an area where they are
exposed to, you know, those materials or books or photos, You're , provoking
them saying like, you know, what, what are you going to do with this?
Like, is there something here that sparks your interest?
And so to me, that's kind of the difference.
Invitations are a little bit more purposeful in my opinion.
They're a bit more, to me, they're geared more towards younger students.
Although there's no reason you can't use them with older students.
But I find that when you give a student a specific activity or skill or, or,
, Invitation younger students tend to respond better to that in my experience.
Um, whereas provocations are a bit more open ended.
Students can sort of take them a little bit further because there's no specific
objectives that they have to explore.
There's nothing purposeful that they have to do with it.
It's just open ended, right?
Yes, that's a, that's a very good explanation there.
And I think that becomes very clear.
And I loved how you said it's really purposeful versus open ended and
you're absolutely right, because in the early childhood classrooms or
spaces, you would very much see the invitations, you know, the laying out
of things for children to explore.
And sometimes I think people think that is a provocation, but it's not.
It's an invitation because you have very clear, as an educator, a very clear
intent what you want those children to do with those objects, right?
But then on the other hand, when you place things out and you leave
it open ended, What can you do, you know, or what do you think of this,
or how would you like to explore this?
Those open ended invitations, they, I'm saying an open ended invitation, but that
is very much more along the line of a provocation, because you're trying there,
I guess, to provoke some kind of response.
Would that be correct?
I would agree with that.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I think as educators who are listening now and thinking, well, gosh, is it a, is
it an invitation or is it a provocation?
I think if we just remember, does it provoke a response or are children
doing something that you have an intent for them to practice or build
or do or make or create or whatever.
So I think that's a really good, reminder and I think, especially
for me as well, to really cement that difference between an invitation and
a provocation, which I think is really important for educators to understand.
So If educators want to take this leap and they want to start planning
provocations for newbies or people who've never done this before, where do
you suggest that they would then start?
Just dipping their toes in and this is how you would go about setting
up provocations for children.
So I think, um, my biggest piece of advice from just, being in classrooms
myself and and observing what's worked for me and what hasn't is, , definitely
it starts with knowing your students and tuning into what they're interested
in and what gets them curious, right?
And that's going to be different for every student.
But I think starting there is a really good, um, a good starting point.
And now I'm not suggesting that teachers arrange their classroom into like a
Roblox studio or anything like that, although that would be kind of cool.
But um, encouraging students to talk about their interests and ask questions and show
an interest in what they're interested in, what their likes and dislikes
are and, and being curious yourself, you know, modeling curiosity and, and
modeling, the act of just talking about, you know, like asking a student,
how was your soccer game last night?
Like how, how did Uh, have you been working on your, um, your aim or did
you get any penalty shots or, you know, asking them about their lives
and asking, you know, if you see a student with a phone and, and you say,
like, what are you playing these days?
Like, what's, you know, what game are you playing?
What's interesting?
How does that work?
Teach me about that.
I'd love for you to take five minutes at lunchtime.
Show me how that works.
Um, So taking an interest in, in what they're interested in is great.
I think also teachers sometimes fall into this way of thinking that
they have to reinvent the wheel.
And I know that when I was creating invitations and provocations for
my students, I really started with what I had in the classroom.
And you know, it can be as simple as a book and a whiteboard
that you write a question on.
You invite a student to look at a particular picture book.
Um, I spy books were really, I don't know if you have I spy books
and you know about them when I was a kid, they were so popular.
They were like gold.
Yeah.
And, um, yeah, I even used that once I used an I spy book and I
put a whiteboard out on a table.
And I just said, like, , what nature objects can you find on this page
, and, , The act of just looking for those objects gave students a purpose.
It wasn't just you're looking for certain objects, like, you know, they have
the prescribed, like, find this, find a magnifying glass, find a whatever,
but getting them to think about something different and what is a nature item?
Or how, what does that look like?
Why would a nature item be in an office, you know, and so from there you get a
lot of really interesting questions.
So something as simple as a book and just a little whiteboard that you
have in the classroom that can be a perfect start for an invitation um
having uh, like recyclable materials that get brought in, you know boxes
and empty bottles and things like that.
That is enough for a lot of kids, you know, like we we joke a lot about
you know cats, you buy them these extravagant cat beds and all they
want to do is play with the box.
I find that students are like that too.
You can buy the coolest thing for them, but they see a box and they're
like, what could I make out of that?
Like let's make a sled.
Let's make a robot.
Let's make a a window like, you know, they're creative juices just
start flowing with like a simple box.
So sometimes, you know, teachers feel like they have to go out and buy all
these expensive things and spend a lot of money and reinvent the wheel, but
just knowing your students interests and just using what you already have
is a great place to start.
That's probably like the biggest, uh, piece of advice I would give
if someone wants to just dip their toes and start with that, see what
happens, see how they respond.
Yeah.
I love what you just said, because I've been really a bit triggered
on social media this week with all this going back to school stuff.
So I've actually just recorded a podcast episode, which will come out.
Um, it'll be featured before this, this recording comes out, but one of
the things I've noticed is my gosh, these teachers, they are going to town
with decorating their classrooms and buying these extravagant, I, it looks
like an interior decorating show.
And I'm thinking to myself.
How long are kids going to engage with those things?
How long are they going to engage with them?
And also, let's face facts, it costs a fortune and it comes
out of a teacher's own pocket.
When really, I think the question we need to ask ourselves
is, is it really necessary?
Is it really necessary?
Because as you've just said, You can just put a whole bunch of boxes out.
I know it doesn't look pretty, but it's going to get those kids so
much more engaged than the pretty manicured stuff that you're putting
out, which they're going to be bored with within a, within 20 minutes.
They are going to, no, we don't want to interact with that anymore.
I'm thinking, God, my classroom never looked like that.
I must have been a hell of a failure.
I know.
I see it too.
And I think, oh, it's, it's so aesthetic.
It's beautiful.
But I try to remind myself, you know, like when I created my bulletin
boards, something that I found that was really impactful was, obviously
not overloading them with stuff.
Also, the aesthetics didn't really, you know, I wanted it to look nice, but I
didn't care if it was, you know, like the same tones of green and a perfect font.
Right.
What I found that was really, uh, meaningful to the kids was seeing
their work up there and saying like, where would your work look nice?
Like this was a really interesting presentation about the oceans and
you made so many great connections.
And as they were working on their you know, their curiosity projects, they
would stick stuff up on the board.
They'd say, well, I just, I have to put this picture up because
I need somewhere to put it.
I have to work on some other things.
Or I found this biography of this person who runs this oil company, for example.
And I want to just print off his picture.
Oh, put it on the board.
Like it's a working document.
And when students are allowed to or, or have the autonomy to, to use that board
as sort of like an extended workspace.
It, I don't know, there's something about it.
That's just so like wonderful and exciting because not only does it
show their thinking process and their creativity and their workflow, but
it's also a great conversation point.
You know, people have like coffee table books, right.
And it can be a great point of discussion or a photo on the wall.
Your working wall, or your bulletin board, or whatever you want to
call it, can work in the same way.
It can be a visual representation of your kids learning, and it's such a great
way to, to talk with them about what they're doing, and, and where they are in
their inquiry journey, and what they're learning, and what's standing out to them.
You know, you can leave it up during an open house and parents come in.
They may say, oh, this board is, there's a whole lot of stuff going on here.
Where's, you know, what's going on.
And the student will jump in the same student who was working on
the oceans project, this happened is his dad was like, what's,
what's this, what's going on.
He's like, Oh, this is the so and so, uh, CEO of BP.
And when they, when they drill in the ocean, this happens in book.
And I was blown away at what he remembered, how passionate he was
telling his dad, and just that simple question of, what's this?
What's this?
Who's, who's this guy?
You know, and it just led to, you know, his investigations, his opinion on the
guy, and how it related to the oceans, because his dad was really big on,
like, ocean preservation and surfing and everything, and, like, I almost cried.
I was like, oh, you know, that's, it's so wonderful, because that's
exactly why we do what we do, right?
That's exactly what we want students to do, is to have that passion
and that curiosity and, , be able to explain what they're doing and
explain why it's important to them.
It's just so I get like choked up thinking about it.
I love those moments.
There's they just make everything so worth it, right?
Victoria, I hope that listeners can hear how excited you are, and
I hope they can hear your passion because they won't be able to see it.
A few snippets maybe here and there, a few little clips of our,
of our conversation on video.
But I just want to tell listeners that Victoria is absolutely glowing right
now as you are speaking and your passion and your excitement for for this type
of learning and what these children have learned and what they've achieved
it's just it's palpable right and that's exactly what curiosity and inquiry and
I'm sorry I say inquiry you say inquiry what it's about it's about provoking
thinking and questioning and curiosity so that kids light up in exactly the
same way as you're lighting up right now.
And it really, as an educator, and I can absolutely, I'm with you 100 percent
on that, there have been so many times where I have literally got choked up and
had to fight back tears in a classroom because these kids have just done the
most incredible learning that they never would have done had they not had that
opportunity to explore and to question and find answers and also to explore on things
that they actually are interested in.
Because I think inquiry allows them, gives them permission to do that.
And you've related that story, and, and as you said, all of us
have these little stories, right?
About kids who've, I can think of so many.
And very often we think, and I've had those as well, those, those
kids that are so enthusiastic and, they're often kids that are high
achievers and gosh, they go all in.
But you know what?
There's also those little kids and I've had them too, that really struggle
academically and that hate school.
And as soon as they start understanding and learning, Oh my gosh, I'm actually
what I can actually, are you telling me I can actually investigate anything I like?
And I'm going, yeah, you can, it opens up an entire world to them.
And if they've got problems writing, well, gosh, gee whiz, they don't actually
have to write a report, they can actually make a movie or a video or a movie and a
video, same thing, Edwina or a PowerPoint.
I've had kids who struggle with learning and have embraced making
PowerPoints and standing up and , where I've had to do the reading
because they struggle with reading,
so I've done the reading and they've listened and they've stood up with a
PowerPoint presentation that they've made and remembered everything.
Remembered everything that I read to them.
There's no way that that would have happened had we just given the same
old boring lesson and , we're going to sit down and they're going to fill in a
worksheet and never remember it again.
And so I really, gosh, I hope all of you guys listening can hear the
passion in our voices and understand how powerful this is for children.
It's absolutely a celebration.
So I think it's just wonderful that we just have this passion and that
children can be allowed this autonomy and long may this live is what I say.
Now, we've been talking a lot about autonomy and children's interests.
And I know that there are going to be educators out there listening
that say, well, hang on, how do I include a kid's interest when
I have to follow a curriculum?
Because I think a lot of educators will say, well, I've got these kids who
are really interested in this, , but the curriculum says I have to do that.
So, so how do I marry the two?
Do you have a little bit of information or a little bit of advice for that?
Yeah, I think, you know, we were talking earlier about how interdisciplinary
inquiry learning is, and what I found is, you know, if a student has a,
um, an interest in something that we're not really, working on it that
particular time or the curriculum doesn't really have us there at that time.
Um, I try and find ways to make connections between what we're looking
at and what they're interested in.
So, like, for example, you were saying, you know, for working on like the
water cycle or, or something like that.
And a student's really obsessed with space.
You know, you could invite them to find out, like, Do water cycles happen on Mars?
Like, does Mars have its own water cycle?
Does Jupiter You know, like, how does water Is there even
water in the solar system?
And you could sort of lead them that way.
And as the student is exploring that, you know, you could sort of build in
time where you review, for example, like, the required vocabulary and sort
of just infuse what they're doing.
And, you know, , if they're trying to explain how something works and maybe
there's a correct term that you're supposed to teach them, sort of slide
that in, just say, oh, you know, X term or whatever, and briefly explain what
it means in that new context so that they are aware of, you know, the term,
but they're also aware that it can be applied in different contexts, right?
So I think leaning into that is interdisciplinary, uh, approach and
understanding that even if there are two subjects that you feel are
totally unrelated, they're probably not as unrelated as you may think.
There's always a way, uh, I've found to connect what a student is interested in
to something that they're supposed to be learning about at that grade level,
you know, and I feel like, um, as much as we may say, you know, the kids are
on iPads and their phones and they're gaming all the time, there are so many
opportunities to connect what they're doing in their free time, what they're
interested in to something relevant to the curriculum and a lot of students I've
noticed, especially in like grades four, five and six, you know, they're like
between the ages of like nine and 13.
They're discovering that their interests can actually.
lead them to a career, for example, in video game design, that the video game
that they're playing, or the, the, the game, they're like Roblox, Minecraft,
all those, you know, Fortnite, they're, um, there's so many things they can learn
behind the scenes, you know, there's connections to math in terms of coding,
you know, how could you create this, Um, how can you create this on your own?
Could we use scratch to create this?
Um, you know, building like in Minecraft, right?
How could you use recyclable materials to recreate this?
That also teaches them about forces.
You know, what materials will go well together?
How can you distribute the weight of your structure?
You know, all these things can pop up and it just takes a bit of practice
and a bit of time and, um, experience to, to look at what a student's
interested in and say, okay, okay.
Where are the connections here?
How can I sort of do what I need to do as a teacher, curriculum wise, teaching
wise, objectives wise, and connect it to what the students are interested in?
And I think a lot of teachers find that there's more connections than they think,
and using that interdisciplinary approach is a good way to find those connections.
I think what you've just said, to me, there's one word that we as educators
need to be able to do that and find the connections, and that's our mindset.
We have to be curious.
We have to be open to actually take a moment to think about, well, gosh,
this kid is interested in this.
What questions could I ask?
How can I relate?
How can I relate this interest that he has or that she has to
this topic that I'm teaching?
And so I think that just requires curiosity on our part and a willingness
to let go of what we're doing and to just be more willing to experiment,
which is, would you agree with that?
Yeah, I agree.
I think sometimes teachers are and rightfully so nervous about, you
know, because there's that, that old thinking of compartmentalizing things.
And I think when we realize how easy it is to connect these different
topics and subjects to each other, That's when we start to think, well,
okay, actually, I can use what they're interested in, and I can infuse it with
what I was planning on doing with them.
I can make those connections and, or even plan it so that the students make
those connections on their own, right?
It's, it's, for me, so great when it's, I've, and I've had this
happen before where a student will be working on something.
Like we were doing art, I remember once we were doing some Bob Ross painting.
And, um, One of my students said like, this is kind of like math.
And I went, what do you mean?
It's art.
How is it like math?
And, um, I like to play dumb with my students to, to just show them,
like, I don't know everything and please tell me, what do you mean?
And she was saying, you know, like, the way that the branches are separating
from the trees, it's, like, symmetrical.
They're, like, one branch is a little bit different, but they're
sort of, the patterns are the same.
And, you know, when, when we draw the leaves in the trees,
they sort of make, like, little circles that are, like, patterns.
And I said, Oh yeah, because in math, don't we do like
patterns and tessellations and, and she goes, yeah, yeah.
And I said, Oh, it's, and I was like, would the rug be math?
Cause we had like a sort of rug with shapes on it, different colors.
And I said, so would the rug be math?
Is that a math rug?
And she thought it was funny.
And I said, is it an artsy rug?
Like people who are artists would design rugs, but like, what, how is it math?
And she, you could see the gears turning and she's like,
well, I guess it's kind of.
like math because there's these shapes she got on the floor and everything.
She's like, well, here's a triangle.
Here's a, um, uh, diamond, here's a whatever.
And I said, Oh, I wonder where else there's math.
And I like got up and started looking.
I'm like, no, you continue your painting.
I'm going to look for more math.
And I could see that she was like looking around too.
We had like stained glass windows and, you know, she was totally
tuned in just that one question.
And then, you know, we would do math and I'm sure she.
could see, you know, patterns and think back.
And so those connections that I feel like are really like magical moments
where you can really see the connections that they're making with what they're
doing to, to an abundance of things.
Yeah, that's amazing.
And that's, and that again, it's, as you know, it's just to being aware and having
an awareness and, and always questioning.
And I love how you've just said, you sort of play dumb a little bit and you
ask the questions and that in itself is a provocation because you're provoking
them to think and respond and, and come up with some kind of explanation or
search for the answer, which is amazing.
I'm just wondering now, Victoria, how does one, measure the
effectiveness of a provocation?
It's a really good question.
I would say definitely just based on how engaged the students are,
you know, some provocations just don't, they kind of fall flat.
Like I've had provocations where I think the student's going to be
interested and they're actually like, and they don't really seem interested.
Um, the good thing about a provocation is that because it's so open ended,
you can really shift gears and kind of steer it in a different direction.
If you notice that the student isn't, curious and they're sort of just meh,
you know, sometimes they just aren't used to being asked an open ended question.
They're just used to quickly googling and they're like,
oh, this is the answer, right?
Um, so for some students, they're just not used to it and you sort of have to
coax them and, and, you know, scaffold the process of, you know, here's your
question and where could we go with this?
Like, and, and trying to get them to activate their prior knowledge,
activate their lived experiences to try and, you know, make a
connection between what the question is and what they could do with it.
So for some students, they're just not used to it.
You have to sort of guide them a little bit.
But if a student is, is super engaged in what they're doing and
they're like, Oh yeah, this reminds me of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Or, or they say, Oh, I need to find a plastic bottle and a piece
of string and a piece of red clay.
And you go, Okay, let's look for something.
You know, if, if they, they seem excited, engaged, they have questions, they want
to act and do something, that I feel is a sign of a really successful provocation.
But if a student is sort of passé about it and, you know, just kind of, mmm.
Then you either have a student who's not used to that kind of,
uh, experience, or they just don't really know where to go with it.
You sort of have to pivot and, and think, okay, how can I
make this exciting for them?
And once they show excitement and engagement, then you know
that your provocation is working.
And it takes time.
They're not all going to be, you know, a hit.
You know, you sort of have to, feel around a bit.
And so again, you've just demonstrated that the way you
do that is by asking questions.
So you ask yourself the question again, how do I pivot?
How can I make this provocation interesting to these children?
Because as you've said, sometimes we just think, Oh, maybe I just changed the
provocation, but perhaps it actually just requires a little bit more thinking on
our part of saying, well, maybe children don't understand how to actually go about.
questioning the provocation, right?
Um, and again, it's that whole modeling story of, you know, people often
think that inquiry just like, you just let them go free range chickens
and off they go, they're going to inquire, but it's not that at all,
we actually have to be really explicit and model what inquiry is.
And we have to be explicit and model exactly what we want children to do.
So if they've never, if they're not used to, , asking questions or wondering
then we, I guess, have to model, oh, what kind of questions do you think?
What do you, what do you think about that?
Or how do you think this could work?
We have to model those questions.
So I love how you've said that.
And it's becoming more and more apparent to me.
The more I speak to people is that with inquiry, it's just the
same thing over and over the same, everybody says the same thing.
It's our curiosity and our questioning that lead children down this path of
being curious and asking questions.
It's just getting used to a different mindset, isn't it?
So, what do you think has been the most rewarding experience of being
an inquiry based educator using inquiry as a strategy for teaching.
Oh, it's, it's definitely seeing the students and how they, how they light up,
like the story I was telling you about, I can't put like words on exactly how it
feels when you, because like you said, it takes a long, not an extensive amount of
time, it does take a lot of thought when you plan out provocations, inquiries,
you know, when you really want to dive straight in and make it like a regular
part of learning in your classroom.
It does take a lot of thought and so the most rewarding thing for me is when you
give a child the opportunity to explore something that's interesting to them.
And they surprise you with either how much they know, because they're so
passionate, how driven they are, how they sort of lose track of time when
they're investigating, when they're, you know, doing some research, maybe
when they're conducting an interview, they want to know more about something.
They maybe want to ask an expert.
Um, When you see them working hard on something that they're excited about and
when you hear them make the connections I know we've talked about that you
know, this, this whole time about how important connections are for me when
they make those connections and when they say, like, you know, there's math
in this art, or, you know, there's, there's business in this science and
they make those connections themselves.
Or when you sort of guide them to making that connection themselves
and you leave it open and they're able to go, Hey, wait a second.
Isn't this sort of like that?
Or I sort of, I saw this on the news.
Is this kind of related?
And it opens up a conversation and you have a dialogue with that
student about something that they noticed and something that relates
to what they're interested in.
And for me, that chokes me up because I think, You are learning the skills that
are required to think critically, to go into the world and learn something
that might be difficult, but you have an arsenal of information in your mind.
You have an arsenal of experiences that you can draw from that will
help you to understand new things.
Cause I find that a lot of students have trouble, you know, making those
connections and also being able to think critically about what's going
on around them, they may say, like, I'm just a child, what do, , what
does, um, I don't know, like, what do certain laws or politics or
what do they have to do with me?
And actually, there are so many ways that, that kids can relate
to things that go on in the world.
And when you see students making those connections and you see them ask questions
and try and make sense of what they're learning and , you watch them as they
try to apply what they're learning in a classroom to the outside world, whether
it's through a TV show, newspaper, something they saw when they were,
you know, going to soccer practice or going out for dinner with their family.
When they come to you with those curiosities, it, It feels great as a
teacher that they feel confident to come to you and ask questions, they
know that you're going to honour those questions and be just as interested as
they are, but then when you, when you see them working hard and they're like
deep into their learning and they're making those connections and, you can
see how much they're enjoying it, and you can see the confidence building.
That is so rewarding to me , and I'm such a, like, emotional person that
when I see that I'm like, Oh, I'm so proud of you like you are really doing
so much, and you're great becoming so confident and so happy and, and
you, you really feel accomplished, you want to share what you're doing.
You want to tell everyone about it.
Like, that's just so sweet to me.
It's such a, a remarkable thing to see and also makes me feel very grateful to
actually witness that and to be able to work with students who just amaze me.
That's so wonderful.
And also when they take what they've learning in class, and they, as you
say, they apply it to their real world.
And then you hear that they come back and their parents come back and they
say to you, Oh my gosh, you know, my child's come home and he's talking
about this and that and the next thing.
And he's made me go out and get this.
And so I've had to get this.
And we were reading up about that.
And it's incredible because then, you know, you've made an impact.
And, and they're actually going to explore outside of the classroom, something
that you sparked inside the classroom.
And I think that's just amazing.
And I guess a true testament of how powerful inquiry learning really is.
Victoria, I think we're almost getting to the end here, but I'd like to say
or ask you , what you think about this.
Education is going through massive challenges right now.
Especially in the Northern Hemisphere right now, everybody's
going back to school and getting ready for the new academic year.
What advice can you give educators who are either new to inquiry or,
perhaps have tried inquiry before,
what advice can you give them to set up provocations and invitations
and also just to consider inquiry as a strategy in there learning
experiences and in their classrooms?
So I think, um, knowing your students and, um, getting to know their interests,
getting to know what makes them curious is again, a great place to start.
Um, In terms of implementing inquiry and feeling overwhelmed, I like to
sort of draw inspiration from an old TV show, actually, that a lot
of kids who are now my age watched, which was The Magic School Bus.
I don't know if that was a program in Australia with Miss Rizzle.
No, but we still watch it.
Yes.
And my kids actually went to an American international school.
And so we had a lot of magic school bus going on when they were younger.
Yeah.
That was, Oh my gosh.
When, if I had any spare, you know, 10, 15 minutes here and there in England
to really like consolidate something, cause we had, like I told you, our
lessons were very structured sometimes with consolidation, I would take a few
minutes and I'd find an appropriate clip that would sort of solidify like
if we were talking about the digestive system or something I would put on
a little clip from the magic school bus and they didn't know what it was.
They hadn't seen it and I was like, oh same with Bill Nye.
They didn't you know, and so I I try to think you know, about advice for
teachers who want to do inquiry.
And I would take the words of Ms. Frizzle and say, take chances, make mistakes, you
know, because teachers are learning too.
We are, we're never at a point where we, where we can't learn, right.
Teachers, I think, um, show a lot of vulnerability with students when they
say, I don't know the right answer and maybe this isn't going to work, but we
can pivot and I think it's important that.
You know, as teachers, we remember that we may not get it right the
first time and to model to students that what you did may not have
worked the way that you intended it.
But you can actively say, you know, oh, didn't really work the way I wanted it to.
I was sort of hoping for this.
How can we regroup and make this better?
And modeling how to deal with that failure, even though I
don't really consider it failure.
It's just a learning experience.
But reframing that as, you know, what can we learn from this?
How can we make it better?
Getting the students input on what they might be interested in.
That works to a teacher's advantage.
So if you're concerned about, you know, am I going to get this provocation right?
Or am I going to get inquiry right the first time?
Probably not, but it's a great opportunity for you to say, this is what worked.
This is what didn't.
How did my students respond?
What can I do better?
Could I get their input?
You know, that's of course what we want.
We want student input.
We want their engagement.
And so modeling that, You know, taking a step back and regrouping and thinking of a
different way to approach what we've done or what we want to do is really powerful.
And like I said, I think it really starts with getting to know your students
and cultivating that environment for inquiry and asking lots of questions
and, um, taking an interest in what they like to do and what interests
them and what makes them curious.
It's a really great place to start.
What an amazing, amazing piece of advice and so getting to know your students.
knowing their interests, modeling, modeling, modeling, and more modeling
because they don't know what they don't know, and also embracing failure.
And I think that's so important, especially for those kids as well
that, , that are the perfectionists.
They are so afraid of doing anything because they don't want to fail.
They don't want to do badly.
And so when we're modeling this failure and we're modeling, I
don't know, how do we do this?
Oh, well, this didn't work.
Well, so how do we change it?
I think it embraces our own vulnerability, which will then really help children
embrace their vulnerability.
And so I think those are really, really valuable, valuable
lessons and valuable insights.
And I don't think teachers can really get better advice than that,
just to be brave themselves and encourage their children to be brave.
So that is amazing.
Victoria, thank you for this and I'm going to ask you, you have a
wonderful blog that really goes cross curricular and integrates all the
different subject areas and it's a treasure trove on all things Inquiry.
How can other educators find you?
How can they work with you if that's an option for them?
Or, and how can , they just seek out more information like what you've
given today, and as I know that there's a heck of a lot more that you have
to share, where can they find you?
So where I publish all of the articles and resources and downloadables
is on, uh,, learningbyinquiry com.
Um, I'm learning by inquiry on Instagram as well, on Facebook, um,
I'm not as active on some of the other platforms like Twitter, for example.
, I do have a YouTube channel, Learn by Inquiry, um, but that
is sort of in its early stages.
It's sort of where I post the video snippets that I like to include in my
blog posts, like for example, the stop motion videos that my students have done.
, But primarily, the website is filled with, you know, information, not just,
, pedagogical approaches, but also, uh, a lot of practical examples and
inspiration, because what I found was that, , there's a lot of really great,
amazing, um, inquiry educators in the space, like we talked about, um, but
what I found was that, a lot of social media posts People were asking for ideas,
examples, projects, practical things that they could do with their students.
So on my website, I try to offer a lot of ideas and roots of inquiry and how
they connect with different subjects.
You know, like science and math and everything like that.
So, my website is a really, , good place to start if you want some inspiration
and some good ideas, some resources.
Um, and that's where I'm most active right now.
Yes.
And I will place all the links to Victoria's website in the show notes.
So anybody can just go there and browse around and as Victoria has said,
there's a lot of practical stuff because I've had a really good browse around.
There's also some stuff on pedagogy and there's freebies and integration ideas.
So really just as I've said before, treasure trove of information, so
really go and have a look there.
I'll put the links in the show notes.
So Victoria, I would just want to thank you for being on the show.
It's been an absolute pleasure having you and Just your passion and your enthusiasm
for teaching and for children and keeping them curious and getting them involved
in inquiry and having curious minds.
And I think that's what it's all about at the end of the day.
So I just want to thank you for sharing that with our listeners.
And I hope that in the future we'll talk to you again.
And until next time, I'd just like to tell everybody to stay blooming curious.