Today on Blooming Curious, we welcome April Zajko from April's Teaching Tree.
April is a Master's qualified early childhood educator and a
reading specialist with a passion for creating supportive learning
environments for all children.
A nature inspired approach to teaching and believes that nature inspired
experiences help to reconnect families and bring balance to all our lives.
April has taught in both public and private schools and has
worked with a wide variety of education and child care providers.
She's highly experienced in integrating nature into indoor learning environments.
And it's finding powerful ways to meet early childhood standards
through play based, nature inspired materials and environments.
April, it's a pleasure to have you on Blooming Curious today to share your
knowledge and experience with us.
Well, thank you for having me.
I know I read out a little bit of a bio about you, but let's begin with
you telling us more about yourself and how April's Teaching tree came about
Absolutely.
So I'm just about into my 25th year of teaching.
And right now I'm teaching part time with preschool aged children, ages
three through five, in a public school setting here in Vermont, and
I found out that there's a Vermont, Australia, but it's Vermont, USA.
Uh, so in the Northeast part of the country.
I just love getting kids outdoors.
And so I work part time with children and part time with adults teaching
higher ed college courses, both at undergraduate and graduate levels.
And I lead a lot of professional development for teachers who
specifically I love my two passions really are nature and, and art.
And so really thinking about how can we bring kids outdoors?
How can we get them connected to nature?
Give them these opportunities for play and integrate, really
process open ended art with them.
Those are my real teaching passions.
That's wonderful.
Why do you feel so passionate about incorporating nature based learning
into traditional classroom experiences?
Well, over my career, I've taught in a variety of different settings and what
I find is that children really thrive outdoors and oftentimes the kids who,
have difficulty in the indoor environment can really just Bloom, uh, kind of goes
with the podcast name, but they really do bloom in the outdoor classroom.
And so I like to use the term nature inspired, uh, you know, nature based
education, I think is a really large umbrella that includes a lot of things,
including forest schools and exclusively outdoor programs and nature preschools
and forest kindergartens and it has that you know, everybody, I think, around the
globe have a different approach to it.
Uh, for me, I like to use the term nature inspired because we can bring
nature into our indoor environments and, help children connect with their
bio region by bringing in natural elements from around, you know, from our
backyards and from our nearby nature areas, and by getting kids outdoors.
So a lot of the educators that I work with are not exclusively outdoors or
don't consider themselves as forest educators per se, but rather they're
teaching in more traditional settings, but they know that kids need this.
And so I am really passionate about it because I really believe that children,
they have a right to be outside and they have a right to be able to play.
And, we can, we feel a lot of this in the early childhood world.
We see this push down of the curriculum and a very academic based focus, uh,
as if we're getting kids ready for something and as in the early years,
I just feel like we really need to protect play for the wellness of
children, for their holistic health, their physical health, their mental
health, their social, emotional, um, growth that we really need to make
sure that we're getting kids outside.
And you're absolutely right because kids are happiest when they are
outside and it's just so strange that everybody knows this and yet we still
have this push down of the curriculum.
Yeah.
And so as a public school teacher, I do have to, show evidence that
the children are meeting early learning standards and that , we are
using an assessment tool and what
I have found is I really can do all of those things in the outdoor classroom
if I have designed the outdoor space, if there's enough materials or if
you know there's opportunities for those that kind of play, um, to happen
and I've, I really don't see it as it has to be this way or that way.
So I'm certainly not doing any kind of worksheets or, , very, uh,
super teacher directed activities.
But I know as I bring materials out, as I have, playful, learning
invitations that kids, they're meeting those standards that we know that
we need to do, in public programs.
And we're doing it in a playful way and we're doing it in a way that really
sparks children's, curiosities and their passions, and by observing them, we
know , what they want to learn about.
And so it's kind of part teacher planning, but also following, , the
emerging interest of children.
Yes, we do have, the forest schools here in Australia, even have bush schools,
we have the beach schools, but I feel that those are few and far between the
majority of children, if they're not homeschooled, if they're in a traditional
school setting, are, in urban areas.
I think it's amazing that you are trying to help get urban teachers and show them
how to include nature inspired learning.
So how do you do that?
I think this would be a really helpful thing to tell teachers listening,
is how do you approach having that inspired by nature in an urban setting?
So to me, there's really two main ways.
One is through the environment and, how we prepare the environment and how, in
both in the outdoor classroom and also in the indoor space, you know, what kinds
of materials are accessible to them?
How have we designed the space to really invite their curiosity
and to spark their interest?
And so environment design is one, and it really doesn't, I mean that almost
sounds like something expensive, but it actually isn't, but it's more about
getting authentic materials and natural loose parts and those kinds of things
so that kids are really engaged in play.
And so, the environment is one, and then the other is really thinking
about how we design the curriculum to really, um, I like to say at the
heart of the curriculum is nature.
And to me, that's really all about connecting to the seasons.
And so it's not a prescribed thing,
like I'm not spending my summer to plan out every week with a thematic plan, but
rather to say what's happening right now , in our space and letting that really
guide, reading picture books, uh, doing projects and art things that are inspired
by the seasons, and just becoming more aware of what's in our backyard and what
I have found truth to be over the years.
It's just more and more that children have, are living a very indoorized
life and they're not connected , and so whether, you know, both , in urban
areas, but also even children who live in very rural agricultural kinds of spaces
where you would think, Oh, they have access to nature because they're in this
rural space that they're not like that.
They have, really these indoorized lives and that very young children are
spending a huge amount of time on screens.
And so helping them get outside, find the joys of being out there,
the simple pleasures of, going for a nature walk or collect, making a nature
collection or creating some sort of process art with natural materials.
Like it just, it awakens something in kids and they get excited about it.
And that has very aptly brought me to my very next question.
Technology drives our modern world, and we find it everywhere.
and even in young children's lives.
It's something that I find personally really disconcerting, and I'm very
pleased to see that the media is starting to see a connection between
the negative effects of technology on young children's brain development.
So that is a positive turn, but I think they're not
talking about it nearly enough.
So what is your perspective on that?
How do you find that balance between nature inspired learning
and the use of technology in the early childhood classroom?
Yeah.
So for me, there's been a lot of times throughout my career where I've
had this, you know, I'm using air quotes, but opportunities to have
iPads one to one iPads for my class.
So meaning every child could have an iPad because there's a such and
such grant that would, allow that.
And it's like, no, thanks.
So for me personally, within my own classroom, I've really
pushed back against that.
I do like to have an individual iPad we use for documentation, uh, sometimes
capturing, maybe an interesting bird or an interesting sound that
we see, or, taking photographs of something that we've created.
But as far as technology within the classroom, I've really just pushed
back, against that because I just know that there's so many other,
more developmentally appropriate and engaging things that I can
do when the children are with me.
Um, and then another key part of that is just having supportive conversations
with families about technology and , my own worries about young children being
on screens, and to do it in a way, you know, that's without judgment,
because I do think that families, they have to get food on the table.
And sometimes they just feel like this is their only way to get 20 extra minutes
in the kitchen to prepare the thing.
But , to really, help them to see the difference between
just consuming technology and using technology as a tool.
So, I think part of that is parent education, uh, and
doing it in a supportive way.
I'm just holding my own ground to say, no, we have had an opportunity
to get a smart board in my classroom, which is essentially a giant.
And it's like, no, thanks.
I just know that, I want to hold the book and show it to them.
And I want to flip the pages and I don't want to, uh, be engaging with
them, , in my classroom with a giant screen or with one to one iPads.
It's just not my teaching passion
and I think that we can do better with the time we have.
Yes, in most schools now, we have, the screens, the interactive smart boards,
and you see it on social media, you see it in schools, everywhere, is
teachers are using that more and more.
And I'm feeling the more I read, the more I listen, the more I engage
in it, is that there are better ways than switching on a YouTube video
and getting kids involved in that.
Because I think they get enough of that.
They're already getting enough at home.
And I don't think school is the place for entertainment on YouTube.
I think if we're going to use technology, we need to use it, as
you said before, Very specifically as a tool to capture or to investigate
those kinds of things, but I feel personally that it shouldn't be used for
entertainment in a school environment.
I think we are much better, as you said, to actually read the book, turn
the pages, sing the songs ourselves instead of putting on a YouTube video,
and I, I think of it too, as, even the thinking of it, like with the educator
having, a phone on their person and being outside and maybe on a nature
walk and seeing something and the kid asks, you know, a right there kind
of question of what's that plant?
Yeah, we could grab our phone and we could identify it for them, using, an
app that helps us identify a plant.
But really, is that the question?
Do, we want to use technology in that way?
Or do we say, Oh, that's really interesting, huh?
I'm noticing that, , we have these really Interesting spring ephemerals.
So it's springtime where we are.
Um, and right now and , the spring ephemerals are these interesting little
plants that they don't last very long.
And, , it's sort of, they're kind of magical because they
pop up and then they're gone.
You know, the, one of the very first ones that comes up , is Coltsfoot and
it has this little teeny yellow flower.
And it's like, if, and they're like, Oh, there's dandelions.
And they remember dandelions from, , the last time that flowers
were blooming in their yards.
And it's like, You know, well, let's look at it a little bit closer and then
oftentimes kids will go, they'll notice they look, it looks a little different
and it's growing in the, forest, not out in the grass or in the yard.
And so it's like giving kids the opportunity to make those , observations
rather than saying, Oh, telling them right away what it is or , using
the phone to, to identify it.
It kind of steals away that wonder and curiosity that kids have.
And so I think that smart use of technology , it is a tool, but we
also don't want to rely on it so much to, to give those quick answers.
And I think kids really are even very young children, they have
that instant gratification , with the phone or the technology.
But it's in children's boredom, , and in those times when they have to
sort of figure out or entertain themselves that their wonder is
sparked and their curiosity is sparked.
So if we were always filling in those bored times, it's like, we're
stealing something away from them.
And how would you, let's say you were going out with that group of children
and you saw those beautiful little flowers, how would you respond to that?
Would you actually take the photograph and then take it back to the classroom
and then maybe print it out so that it's a physical print of the plant
or how would you respond to that?
So when I have a group of children and we're visiting the same
space over a period of time.
And so say we're going on a walking field trip, and for some of the educators
that I work with, that might only be once a month because they're more confined,
particularly in more urban settings, they're more confined in their, you
know, fenced in sort of play areas.
Um, but maybe on these walking field trips, it's like, well, the last time
we were here, these little yellow flowers weren't here, there was
still snow or, it's interesting.
So we kind of observe the changes that are happening.
And even if going to that, wild place is only once a month, we can
notice those different changes.
And I think that a good use of technology would be taking that picture
and printing it out and then using some tools that we have , to look it
up and to figure out, what it is.
And, the next time that we go, and if that walk didn't happen, uh, for
a few more weeks, that little yellow flower is going to be gone, and
something else is going to be there.
And it's just that ongoing, letting the kids, make those discoveries of
things and so I think when we think about like these experiences that
we can have for kids, like going on walks is a really easy way.
And so, making sure that we can do things within our prepared environment,
so in our fenced in areas, like whether it's in our garden, you know, or little
raised beds that we have, or how we design the space to bring nature in,
that's one thing, but then also knowing like a walking field trip could be just a
really short little walk to a green space that's different than where we normally
are, or going, into the community and seeing what changes are happening.
And how easy is it where you are just to take children out
for a walk into a green space?
Because here in Australia, there's , the ratios to consider.
It's getting enough adults to go on the walk with, it's getting the permission
from the parents to go on the walk.
So I find with those kinds of things, it would be seen as an excursion,
because you're leaving school property.
So that whole red tape issue and finding help to go with, so how easy is it for
you guys to just pop off to a green space?
Yeah, I was actually just working with a team, a childcare team, for
them, they're in a, very touristy town and they can leave their space
and there's a path not too far.
And so, what they've done is they have it's called like a walking field
trip permission slip, or it's like families, sign something and this works
here so like in where I'm at in the public school we have a walking field
trip permission form that they can fill out, and it says clearly on the piece
of paper what's the distance that we're talking about so we're not talking about
walking five miles with little kids, but kind of give them a sense and so
this group that I was working with.
We did a whole day of professional development about and we
call them adventure walks.
And so the adventure walk for the toddler group is really not far at all.
It's really just to a grassy field close by.
But then, the younger preschoolers, , might walk further down.
They had access to a little creek area.
But you're right, there is the issue of permission, but here we can do
these sort of blanket permission slips that families have access so you
don't have to do it every week or however frequently you're doing.
You just get them to sign that once.
, but yes, we do have to follow ratios.
The ratio gets more, we have to have more adults when we are near water.
That is, a safety precaution, but as long as we're within ratio, uh,
if we're not going somewhere With water the ratio here stays the same.
If we were walking into a dangerous area or something, I maybe
it'd be a little bit different.
But with a walking field trip, I like to have a smaller ratio.
So , for example, my age group three to five year olds.
It's one to 10, but I would never take 10 kids on a walking field
trip that would just be bonkers.
There's just too many things that could you know that might happen.
But, finding a ratio that feels comfortable for you and maybe that
means recruiting, a volunteer, that has done the background
check or whatever you have.
Um, and maybe they, you can find a community member, whether it's a
parent or grandparent of children who are already enrolled, or maybe it is,
a community member that, believes as you believe about getting kids outside
or getting kids connected to nature.
And what I find, I've had a lot of success, previously with grandparents
because they do have a little more time on their hands and they grew up with
more nature and more ability to explore their communities, maybe the adults,
the parents of these kids have had.
So I think the takeaway there is.
that there aren't any obstacles.
It's about just being creative and finding a solution to be able to do the
thing I love that thing that you've said about the, walking field trip
or the walking adventure, permission slip, which would really cover all that.
So that's just a great way around any of those boundaries
and obstacles we put in our way.
I think if you want to do something, You find a way around it.
And I think part of it too is communicating with families, or for
those educators who have administrators who are well, wait, why are you doing
that again, I think part of it is being able to communicate the value, like what
are children learning when they're on that?
And so, it's , going beyond the fence, particularly if you
have a small fenced in area.
It's , yes, you might have the right minimum square footage for each child,
but there's so many things that, this whole exciting world of going for walks.
And even if they're really quite nearby, there still has that sense of
adventure and these opportunities for kids to engage in things that, that
they just don't see on the regular.
And so whether it's like going to a local park or a nature trail or, even, , one
of my college students, teaches in a very urban area, , but he was describing
how just walking like three blocks away
there's this lot that's Oh, I forget the term for it.
I think they're doing regenerative agriculture.
And so there's, it's like a, they're bringing this little lot back to life.
So these kinds of adventures, like there's all different kinds of possibilities for
discovery and exploration and learning.
And just the things like there that you couldn't replicate
that in the indoor classroom.
And so I think communicating to the stakeholders, the families, , and
your administrators is the why behind what you're doing.
And I call my outdoor space, my outdoor classroom.
And that's very intentional because it communicates that when we're out
here, it's not like we're taking a break from real learning, but
rather this is part of our day.
This is part of, being out here.
This is part of the curriculum, for my students and it's not like we're
just taking a break to have recess, but this is the outdoor classroom,
and these are the things we're doing, and going on those adventure walks
also is a way that we're learning and it obviously it's going to look very
different if you're going on a walk with infants and toddlers versus going
with preschoolers are going with school age children, like the kinds of things
that we would be doing look differently.
But I think it's important to communicate that it's not just we're going for a
walk to kill some time, but we're going on a walk and, these are some of the
things that, that happened today on our walk and communicating the value of that.
And I love the research of Claire Warden and she talks about
the inside, the outside and beyond.
Yeah.
And so , what I'm describing as an adventure walk is really
that going to that beyond.
And sometimes people think the beyond has to be like some grandiose huge
experience and it's not at all.
We can find, , all kinds of things, even nearby.
We have in our communities, we have a lot of rail trails
where , railways used to be.
So they're very flat.
They're not paved, they call it crush and run, so it's
kind of like a gravel surface.
Uh, but even in something like that, there's all kinds of things happening.
We're seeing insects that we wouldn't see, in our fenced in areas necessarily.
Um, but just going on those adventures, wandering through, a nearby forest
or going on, little scenic or even going to a spot and having a picnic.
Like these are experiences,
what I found is many children haven't had those, but it broadens their
world of what they can interact with.
And I really think it fosters your curiosity and they're like, Oh,
I didn't know this place existed.
A couple of years ago, I was with a group of, uh, fourth graders, so, that
here would be nine year olds, uh, nine and ten year olds, and, we went on a,
it was a winter activity program, and so every Friday, these school children
would go on different experiences.
And I was with a group going snowshoeing in the local town forest.
And so we got there and it was very, we did have to take a bus to that one.
because it's a little bit too far to walk.
But we got there and we got out onto the trail and the kids were
like, I can't believe this exists.
And this one girl I was talking to, she was just like really in awe.
And it was really beautiful day.
Like the snow was like that clumpy snow on the trees.
And she was like, I just can't believe this is right here so close to the school.
And I was like, Oh yeah.
Are you new to the community?
Did you guys just move here this year?
Because I didn't really know the group of children.
And she's like, No, I've lived here my whole life.
And I'm like, you're, how can you be nine or 10 years old?
And this is a little town, like, and not know that this natural space exist.
So, , not just building their connection to, the plants and the
insects and, and that and such, but actually becoming aware of their local
environment, I think is really huge.
April, I live in Perth, Australia.
The beach is a 10, 15 minute drive away.
Oh.
I have had children in my class that have not been to the beach.
And so these kinds of experiences that we as educators can give children are
so crucial because many of them do not have them in their own families.
So if you are going to take children on this little field trip or on a walk,
one of your biggest justifications is that you are giving children experiences
that they are not normally getting.
I think as educators now, our purpose has almost changed.
We're not just teaching curriculum anymore, we're teaching just about
everything, manners, social emotional well being as well as introducing them
to spaces that are on their doorstep because many kids aren't actually
getting those experiences and as you said
I think we need to give children those experiences, those adventurous
experiences, because we all know, we all love adventures, right?
And those are the things that you remember and that stay with you.
That girl's never going to forget that.
I think that's important because that's catalyst for getting
those interested in nature.
Yes.
And interested in experiences outside of four walls.
I was thinking even like during that experience with the girl, I was
like, okay, when I get back to the building, I want to create a map
of where this place is you know, what's the physical address of it.
With a aerial photo of like you park here.
And this is where we walked, because obviously there are community members
that don't know, but you're right.
It is a memorable experience and it does create these lasting memories
that are really meaningful for kids.
And, , that's what we want is a well rounded education for kids, you know,
and so it's like we get out there, their environmental awareness about what's
here, right here in our own backyard and when they feel that appreciation,
it's those firsthand nature experiences.
Especially I feel like those times when kids are like, Whoa, you know,
it's like, yes, that's what we want.
And so they build this connection to their community.
And so if their family doesn't know about it, then yes, we've given them
this opportunity to go there, and then, providing information to the family so
that they could go back or maybe it should be, uh, maybe we should do a family
event where we meet on a Saturday and do something like that because we do want
this sense of this connection to our local community and our natural surroundings,
and it helps us, at the school that I'm at once a year, they go on a
hike up the same mountain every year.
And I think it's really neat because the young kindergartners, the five year olds,
that is a huge physical test to get.
I mean, this is not really that challenging of a hike,
but to a five year old it is.
But by the time they finish with our school in sixth grade, it's
like they can zip up that mountain and they're familiar, with it.
So they really develop this sense of, confidence or pride, you
know, in how they get up there.
And they have this sense of place.
Like they, this is part of, they belong, to this place.
They know where it is.
And so when we think, well, what's really important for kids?
It's yes, I want my preschoolers to have alphabet knowledge, but I really
want them to have, emotional wellbeing.
I want them to feel good so that they can, you know, like outside is a
real, often a relaxing kind of stress reduction, fun time for kids, and
I feel like there's, a different dynamic of how the children interact with one
another when we're outdoors especially in our outdoor classroom space, but in
these sort of adventure walks, I think too, the kid maybe who struggles in
the indoor classroom with like following, you know, following the rules or whatever
in this kind of adventure walk, they can be the first one in the line.
They could be the leader.
It's like their self concept I think changes a bit.
And that's just, I think, amazing.
And so when we think about, Um, we have such a obesity, epidemic here in the
U. S., getting kids out and getting kids feeling good in their bodies,
moving their bodies and challenging themselves, like walking and running
and, climbing up rocks or balancing and those kinds of gross motor skills.
Yes, they have a bit more of that in the outdoor classroom, but when we go into
the beyond space, it really promotes, I think, those gross motor skills as well.
Because in nature, there's so many challenges that aren't planned for.
You've got to, you cross the stream, for example, you might have
to tippy toe on little stepping stones or balance on a log.
And so that really tests some of those natural, physical characteristics
and abilities that we have.
And so those
unpredictability of nature and the outdoors is so important, not just for
our physical development, but also for our brain development, because that is how we
were meant to learn, because we as humans, we're losing our connection to nature,
but actually we have to try and remember that we really are part of nature.
And so to get kids into those spaces.
is so important for really who we are and who we're meant to be.
And I think for many people, we've become so urbanized that sometimes people
think that, oh, it's just those sort of hippie greenie types that go outside.
Well, it's not like that at all.
And as you said before, something as simple as just going on a walk,
switching off the phone, switching off the technology, because for parents and
for teachers, you very quickly find how beneficial this is to your emotional
state, how calming it is on the nervous system to be outdoors and to be in nature.
So I think that this should really be the focus at least in a week,
if not every day to get out into nature and just, just walk.
Yes.
And I think there is definitely, we have a very risk adverse society here, you
know, where people, it's like, well, you know, that sounds a little risky and
it's like, yeah and if kids never try climbing and balancing on things, then,
are they fully developing their bodies?
Like if they're only on play structures with very uniform sized
steps and they're not having to really negotiate or challenge their body,
that's, really, it's really not good.
So I, think, kind of unpacking a little bit our own feelings around risk
and obviously we're not putting children into hazardous situations, but rather
defining for your program what is risk?
And communicating that to the stakeholders, both the families and
your administrator of, you know, we really value risk because there's
a lot of benefits and then sharing with them, what are those benefits
about, I think , in giving kids those opportunities to challenge their body,
they're building their self confidence.
They're going to have more opportunity.
Yes, they might fall.
Yes, they might get some scrapes, but they're going to really, it
teaches them that resilience and that persistence, being able to get up
and brush the dirt off and keep going, and kids who haven't had those kinds
of experiences they can feel really
overwhelmed by it, but I think we want to reinforce that whole emotional regulation
not all things in life are easy, and so sometimes the child who really, you know,
it's circle time at the rug, is the first one to shoot up their hand and always
knows the answer and, super smart, you know, got all the ideas and, whatever.
But then gets outside and can't balance on the log to cross the stream, you
know, or, other kids are willing to take chances or test out their balance and
their coordination and their endurance.
And it's like, you know what, that's really important for them too to
really, test their limits a little bit.
And obviously we're there to support them.
But I think when they have this opportunity to, and when I'm
talking crossing a stream, I'm talking like super shallow.
We have this little creek that literally like dries up.
It's not a raging river.
No, this is not like class four rapids or anything.
But, learning how to carefully step either, whether it's on, stones
or a log or something to cross it.
And you'll see some kids, and they'll stand back and go, you can see, they're
not sure about it and they'll watch their peers, their friends do it.
Um, and maybe they don't try it today.
Maybe they don't try it for a few weeks.
And then when they do it, oh my gosh, , it's like hands in the air.
They're like, they have this expanded feeling of like, Yes,
I've accomplished this goal.
Those kinds of experience, they're not going to get sitting with an
iPad, , they're just not going to do it.
And so we want them, to see, like, have these opportunities
to, to test their limits.
And, I think sometimes that we're in such a risk adverse society
that , they might get hurt.
And it's like, well, yeah, they might skin their knee.
And that's part of childhood you know,
I was thinking, for a lot of these kids, the focus is very
often on the academic side, right?
But as you get older, maybe you go to college and then you get a job,
it's not all unicorns and rainbows.
It's hard.
It's tough.
You're going to come up against challenges.
And those are the times when if you've had those challenges and taken those risks
out in nature, then the risks and the challenges that you start to experience
in your working life or your life in college, they become manageable because
you learned through your childhood how to manage those risks and to take chances
and to figure out how to do things and to figure out how to step to cross a river.
Those things actually give you the skills to learn how to navigate the problems
that are going to come later in life.
So as you said, I think.
educating stakeholders is a really important part of this process.
Yeah.
And even, I think sometimes too, something that holds educators
back is well, I'm not an expert.
I don't know the names of all the plants.
I don't know what the trees names are, or I don't know, and it's no, no, the
kids aren't looking to you to be a walking, , encyclopedia or, field guide.
No, like they are going to experience it.
So I just encourage folks to just try even short little
walks, a short little, adventure
. Yeah.
Like see how it goes.
Don't, don't go on some way distant thing.
That's overwhelming.
Go on some nearby nature, little adventures and see how it goes.
Like those little baby steps, I feel like really do add up to building
both the confidence of the adult and the excitement of the children.
And so, yeah, sometimes kids are like, Oh, why do we have to do this?
Ooh, don't let that stop you.
If they're always indoors, they'll be like, what is this place or
why do we have to do this thing.
But once they get out there, I really do, I've seen it where kids who are
really reluctant will get excited about it, or they get, they start to
know the places that they're going to.
A group of kids that I worked with years ago, there was this one place
in the forest with a big boulder.
And then a smaller rock in front of it or, or next to it.
And they were like, we have to go to Turtle Rock.
And they named this place.
And now that the place had a name, it was like magical.
And this was so close to the door of my classroom, but it was up
a hill and it was in the forest.
So it was like, you couldn't see the building.
And so for them, It was like, , we really were on an adventure, even though
if we really needed to, we could get right back to the building quite easily.
But I think like this idea of just giving kids the opportunity, , to go.
It doesn't have to be something grandiose.
It can be really simple.
, For people who don't have that nearby access, it does cost money to take
children, by bus , but I would encourage adults in that situation to really think
about, you know, we want children to have access to these experiences and we want
children to have equitable access, they have a right to be connected to nature.
And so to consider writing grants and, saying that the purpose of this
is for children to connect to their local ecosystems that they're not.
And, we have one particular grant, uh, here where it gives, money for bus
transportation for school children to go to farms so that they have firsthand
experiences at these, , farms, local farms, because even, , both urban and
even rural kids aren't having these farm experiences that children, children
love, they love those experiences.
So I think, having that mindset of this is important and I'm going to
make time or I'm going to advocate for it and see how we can make it happen.
And if for some reason it just can't happen, like there's
too many logistical things,
It just can't happen during the school day, you know, consider the idea of it
being like a family field trip or a family experience, maybe you go berry picking,
with families, or maybe you have a winter, family snowshoe hike, or come up with
things that are in your local communities.
And what I find is there's often lots of partners.
There's lots of organizations, that part of their mission is to
help people get connected to nature.
And so partnering up with them, you know, maybe meeting up at a nature
center or meeting up at a community center might be the way to do
something a little more low cost.
Yeah, but I really think identify what the barriers are and then
figure out how to overcome them.
And as you were talking about.
finding the funds often to go on these trips.
I was thinking, well, maybe part of that budget that they use for technology,
maybe a little bit of less of that, and actually take that and put it
into field trips and getting outdoors.
Cause I often say, and I'd love to know what you think about this before we
move on to the next little bit that I want to talk about, is Then people say,
Oh, but you know, kids need to be on technology because it's the way of the
future and they need to know how to code and they need to know, have you seen how
easily a child can figure out an iPad?
They know how to use that thing even before you have.
A two year old knows how to use a remote for television and to switch on all
little systems within five minutes.
Absolutely.
So absolutely, it's not, they are going to be just fine.
They can learn that stuff at a drop of a hat and in split second time.
So we do not have to prepare them for that.
In the first eight, nine, even 10 years of their lives, they will be
able to pick that up within a week.
So there's no concern about that.
Rather, I would say, let's do things that are really meaningful and really would
aid and help their social, emotional well being and it's going to stay
with them for the rest of their life.
And they have all the time in the world.
to figure out how to code and do technology, but that connection
to nature, they might not always have that opportunity.
Now, before, perhaps I should just get off my soapbox there because that is
something I feel really strongly about.
Now, April, you also said right at the beginning, how not only is
this nature inspired education a passion of yours, but so is art.
And art in an education setting, especially in a nature based education
setting, then we're probably talking there about art like process art and
art that you create using nature.
Would you like to talk a little bit about that?
Absolutely.
So one of the things, as we're teaching and as we're getting to know kids more
and more, we start to see these trends.
And one of the things that I realized is that many of the children that
I work with don't have access, easy access to art materials and
including just pen and paper.
I mean, like markers and paper, and you know, sometimes I think
that that lack of, of opportunity.
And so we know that art is so great,
and so I think nature art in particular, like having kids have the opportunity
to do interesting things outdoors and so providing these opportunities
might look like things like bringing out materials to do leaf rubbings.
That's like a classic autumn activity that we can do.
So kids have leaves and they're taking leaf rubbings and it's like,
Whoa, it's part art, but it's also really interesting science, right?
Like doing, observing closely the veins of a leaf , and noticing that
this type of leaf looks different, is a different shape than this one.
Um, but having, , access to materials.
So I don't feel like you have to bring out all of the art materials into the
outdoor classroom because I use the indoor space equally as , I'm both,
I'm teaching indoors and outdoors.
, But, using natural materials to create land art or, the kids , will
gather up natural loose parts,
so like leaves and, pine cones and little twigs and sticks and,
uh, pebbles or rocks and, creating things like, ephemeral art.
So it doesn't last.
Maybe we.
Um, and making nature faces one day and kids are really enjoying making
the nature faces, but we're not gluing all those bits down and then taking
it home, and we're just making them for the joy of it and maybe we take
photographs of it, or maybe we don't.
But starting to look at materials a little bit differently.
And so, making, Nature collages, uh, taking some of those natural loose parts
back into the indoor classroom where I do have more of an open-ended art center.
Um, so that there's lots of different materials that children can choose from.
Um, you know, there's tools like, scissors and , hole punches and,
, variety of things that kids, can use to, build their fine motor skills.
But then they also have the traditional.
art supplies, so paper and, glue sticks or white glue, um, different
types of writing instruments, markers or crayons, colored pencils, and they
have access to, uh, oftentimes, uh, it seems to be, especially in the autumn
for a year, I just feel like even the colors of autumn and all of the leaves
falling, it's like these natural little treasures, um, but having some natural
materials in the art center as well, so that children can create open ended.
And so some kids will do nature collages, some will, just be interested
in, playing with the materials.
But I think that having a variety of, uh, tools and open ended art materials is
just really great experiences, for kids.
When we're making things in the outdoor classroom, I really love having cardboard,
like corrugated cardboard, so if we are making something that they are
going to take home, I find that having that is so much easier in the outdoor,
especially , if it's a little windy that day, or the ground is a little damp,
the corrugated cardboard is a great base for things, and then kids may use
that, to make collage or come up with their own ideas with the materials.
But I just feel like, um, these are experiences that kids aren't having.
Same thing with paint.
Like many children don't Are not using paint at home.
So thinking about, giving them the opportunity and the access to do
painting, whether that's on an easel in the indoor classroom, or maybe
it's, hanging up some, , in the outdoor classroom, sometimes we use oversized
cardboard that they can paint on.
So more like group murals, things like that, , or they're using
washable, you know, tempura paint to, even paint on natural materials.
So painting on leaves and making leaf prints is a wildly fun kind of thing.
And so it doesn't have to be complicated, but I think just having
access to materials and letting kids
decide what they want to do with it.
So when, when I think about, um, process art really, to me, the
definition of process art, is easiest to easiestly defined as.
open ended, meaning kids get to make decisions about what it is.
So even on a day where I've brought out paper and crayons that are peeled and
my plan is to show them how to do a leaf print, or sorry, a leaf rubbing, , if
another kid decides to Oh, I don't, not interested in a leaf product, but rubbing,
I want to just draw with the crayons.
Well, of course that's encouraged, uh, but I think that there's a lot
of benefits to incorporating process art, both indoors and outdoors.
And it really, to me, comes down to a lot of self expression and them being able to
make choices about how they use materials.
And for that reason, I just love to think of my role as the provider of the
materials and then really stepping back rather than saying, you know, it has to
look, you have to do it this one certain way and have it very teacher directed.
I just, it's not, that's not the goal.
I think when it comes to process art, we always have that cohort
of children, that want perfection.
And they put a lot of pressure on themselves, or maybe the pressure
comes from home environment where everything has to be right.
You get those children that don't want to even try something if they
think that they're going to fail or they're not going to excel.
And so when it comes to this process art, where it doesn't matter what
the product is, what matters is your experience of creating it.
And I found working with children doing process art is that pressure
of the final product is removed.
And so they're just enjoying the process of creation.
So I think if you're working with those children that put a lot of pressure on
themselves, those little perfectionists, something like process art can really
break down those barriers for them and actually get them to enjoy themselves
more rather than worrying about producing something extraordinary.
Mm hmm.
Absolutely.
And I think that, as soon as the adult makes an example of what
the thing is supposed to look like, It's no longer process art.
It's totally product oriented because it's this is what
you're working towards achieving.
And for those perfectionist children, sometimes they won't even start because
For example,, they have this image of, or they know what their name looks like and
they can't make it look exactly like that.
Like that could even be a barrier for them.
So, uh, we live in a very Pinterest age.
It's really easy to pop on Pinterest and print out whatever and spend the
weekend cutting out all of , the pieces.
And then, make the super cute penguin or whatever.
And it's like, is it art?
No, , this is creating a product.
Yeah.
And it's like, yes, it can, nothing against the penguin, but it's really not
meeting the goals of, or it's not helping the child, , it's at best, it's, it would
be like a following directions activity.
Um, and at worse, it's just frustrating because they're wasting their time on it
when rather if we kind of open this up and we provide natural materials, they
have leaves or sticks and stones or whatever it is that we have twigs, um, and
have a collection of recycled materials.
So in my, indoor classroom, you know, it's a lot easier to manage having,
uh, collage kinds of materials, but, having recycled or found objects, uh,
milk jug lids that are, , different colors or, recycled bits of whatever
from packaging, you know, kind of repurposing kinds of materials and then
having a variety of art materials.
Sometimes things that kids come up with, I'm like, particularly as they start
to go from 2D, flat creations and then they start to build up, you know, it's
like, woo, that's really interesting.
And they get into using tape and doing sculptural kinds of
three dimensional things with the materials that are offered.
That's really exciting to see.
And same thing in their writing.
Like we, in their drawing, we keep samples of their drawing.
Uh, for my preschoolers is like a year long portfolio and I bind it at the
end of the year and they take it home.
But man, it's amazing to see how, a three year old goes from just, you
know, essentially scribbling, um, to beginning to do representational drawings.
And I think the more fun that we make that process, like we're not putting pressure
on them to do that, but we're, noticing, I think the perfect, catalyst for art too
, is bringing attention to the picture books that we're reading and noticing, how is
the book made and, oh, this book is from, the author and illustrator is Eric Carle
and notice how, and then talking about the process that Eric Carle uses, like he,
, he painted these papers, then cut them out to make these interesting collages.
And I love to me, collage is one of my favorite, mediums for kids because
even two year olds can make collage.
And so we can meet with success in a lot of different ways, which feels
like a lot less pressure than some very teacher directed, it's, here's the
example and yours should look like mine.
Process art to me is just can be really joyful process and we can
certainly do it outside as well.
So having portable art supplies.
I don't like to take a whole lot of things outside but even just bringing,
you know, different, whether you call them art invitations or art provocations,
where we're bringing some materials out and, kids will use them in different
ways, but I think it's so much fun.
And I'm thinking too, what kinds of things can we do in the winter as well?
Because sometimes we think of art, as just, in the, warmer, temperatures,
but even, you know, painting the snow or bringing out loose parts
when it's snowing and, um, making designs or land art, , in the snow.
And one of the beautiful things about outdoors too, is that you can go
large scale, so that's where I was mentioning, like larger cardboard
boxes that kids are painting on, it's going to be a different scale than when
we're working in the indoor classroom.
And of course we know, like, all of this is cross curricular too, because
as we're doing it we're, we're making connections to the books that we're
reading and there's the literacy connection and there's connections
to, different scientific concepts.
Like we had a lot of ice and so we were, we sprinkled some rock salt, like, so
like kind of chunky salt or Epson salts, uh, I think is another name for them.
We sprinkled some of that onto the ice and then we could hear the ice
cracking, and then the salt in the ice would make these little tunnels.
And it was really fascinating.
So we brought them back into the indoor classroom.
, and then, we're like, well, what would happen if we put some colored water?
So we used liquid watercolors and then.
Put that on top.
And so then , the colors went down into the channels and it was like, man,
there's so much science happening here.
You know, one, the effect , of salt on ice that, the salt makes the ice
melt faster and then , how we could actually hear it, not just see it.
And then, so I think about how sometimes when we talk about, Um, these things in
isolation, it's like we have to remember they're actually really cross curricular
activities and all of this supports the early learning standards as well from fine
motor development to communication skills, you know, and the list really goes on
when you were saying that I lived in Scotland for many years.
And the penny has just dropped for me why they used to sprinkle salt on the roads.
So I don't know whether they sprinkle salt on your roads.
But now, yeah, they sprinkle salt on the roads and then kids can
actually make those connections.
So yeah, once they've made that connection.
Oh, well, the salt dissolves the ice.
So, oh, so why do you think they sprinkle salt on the roads then in the winter?
And then they could actually have those moments where they make
those scientific connections to the everyday experiences they're having.
And to me, that's true learning.
Absolutely.
And, you know, it's like having those experiences multiple times, too.
So it's not like, oh, well, check that off.
We did that one day.
We're moving on to the next thing.
But I had a few years ago, a group, it was a very small group.
Actually, it was in 2020, in the fall, when we came back, when we
reopened, my group was really tiny.
And they got really, that winter, were really interested in ice and so we
did all kinds of ice experiments from freezing small toys in it, uh, noticing
the differences between, you know, sort of, we'd have to put like our eyewear
on because we were like smashing the ice to get stuff out, uh, noticing how
the plastic toys would come out just fine, but when we would put a natural
material in there, like, um, pine cones, Oftentimes the pine cones would break or
the seashells broke, because we're using force on the ice we were cracking things.
It wouldn't happen when it was like the plastic milk jug lids
or the plastic little dinos like they would stay in one piece.
That to me, it's like those multiple experiences, just like a kid,
uh, likes to have the same story read to them at bedtime for I
don't know, six or 12 months.
We're like, really, why again?
But you know what?
They're still processing something from it and they're
still getting something from it.
And so I think about that with art opportunities, if they only
ever get to paint, like if they only can paint once a month.
They're not really getting the full benefit of what is it like
to, to mix the colors together.
And, so sometimes teachers will talk about , the colors, it just all ends
up, even if they had painted something that looked nice, you know, quote
unquote, they just kept painting.
And then it's just a big blob.
And it's like, well, guess what?
It was the experience of painting that's important for their development and
their learning than it is about them having a , perfect picture to take home.
In fact, they get so much more of being able to do it the way
they want to, rather than having us stop them at a certain point
and say, okay, you're all done.
I mean, obviously once the paper starts to disintegrate and fall off the easel,
okay, we do have to sort of say, , maybe it's time for another sheet of paper,
but I think process art, it's just great for them to, you know, experiment.
And , the whole thing is for them to try out and get familiar with the materials.
And so there's, I know a few years ago, there was this a lot of promotion on
social media about using glue, sponges.
So kids would just dip the thing into this sponge that had been soaked with glue.
And you're like, wait a minute.
It's really important that they learn how to actually open the glue bottle,
pick the little thing off and then glue the things on, and use the fine motor
skills that it takes to open up that and, to learn how, when it's open and
when it's closed and what to do if it gets plugged up and then to use those
little hand muscles to squeeze the glue.
And yes, they're going to make a puddle of glue, but guess what?
That's how you learn how to glue.
So it's like, what's your objective?
Them gluing as quick as possible or them learning the skills of how to glue.
For me, I want them to know how to glue, not just how to dip it into, you
know, glue sponge, because it's faster.
And, when we offer them just those like close ended kind of craft activities
where everybody's, making them, they're, maybe they're enjoying the
process of assembling the things that an adult had cut apart, but they put
it on the drying rack and then they go back over and they don't know which is
theirs because they all look the same.
That is product art.
And, Gosh, if we only have them for so much time, where do we really want
to spend our time is definitely in the process, giving them the opportunity
to, um, really foster their own creativity and their imagination,
and many kids don't have those opportunities beyond the classroom.
So I think it's, it's really important to value that.
Years ago, , Claire Warden actually said that we need to get away
from this whole thing of having 25 identical yellow ducks hanging from
a washing line across the classroom.
And what you've just said reiterates that because if all the craft, all the
art looks exactly the same, then we're actually, , reducing the child's voice
and their individuality And that is not art and that is not them expressing
themselves and that does not show the child's voice Or giving the child agency
and saying this is mine, I've created this and mine actually looks totally
different to everybody else's and how cool is that because even as a parent
when you come into the classroom, as you've said, okay, so they're all the
same, so which one is your, you want to see that , yours is different.
You want to see that yours stands out, that it's not like everybody
else's because you are different and you are not like everybody else.
Absolutely.
And I think sometimes we think of these like projects that we sent home as
kind of parent pleasers because parents are often excited to see something
that they know what it is, you know?
And so like the book, Leaf Man, do you know that story?
It's called Leaf Man, it's by Lois Elhert, and she used leaves to make, leaf
collages, and it's a really beautiful book, and so often, you know, we'll kind
of use that as an inspiration to do leaf art projects, and one year, uh, there
was an adult in my room and they helped the children come up with very specific
things these are three to four year old kids, and their projects look like, I
don't know, fifth or sixth graders had made them like they were very intricate.
Very, very intricate.
And I was like, okay, if I put these materials out,
this isn't what they can do.
This is what the adults sitting next to them did.
And it was like a real teaching moment for me to reinforce the idea of
what process is about, this really isn't about them creating something
specific, it, representational of a duck or representational of a fish
or something that was in the book, but rather than just kind of coming
up with their own sort of thing.
But I think sometimes communicating with families so that they understand, when
their child, especially the three year olds, , and they're coming home with
these brown blobs that they've painted, there was a lot of learning that happened,
you know, beyond that, because if I had sent home a coloring sheet, that we
told them they had to, I couldn't even imagine saying this, but you have to
color in the lines where you have to do it this way, or you can, because it's this,
you can only use these certain colors.
I think sometimes when parents see , the brown blob, they're
like, well, what is this?
So I think communicating to families too, about the value of
the process , is really important.
And, , communicating with our coworkers about this is the work of the children.
And yeah, sometimes it , doesn't look like much, but it's important to them.
And when they go to the drying rack, they know their brown blob
because it's important to them.
It was, they created it.
And I always find it amazing that children know exactly, they don't
even have to put their names on.
Everybody in the class knows exactly who's is who's.
Yeah.
You can just ask them, you know, hold this up.
Well, there's no name on it.
Who did this?
Oh, yeah.
No, it was such and such.
I know.
whose it is.
That's amazing because they've already identified what belongs to who.
But if they all look the same, well, we don't know because they all look the same.
So I've always found that absolutely fascinating that children just know.
They know.
They know who it belongs to.
They know their friends.
They know their style of creation.
It's incredible.
Yes.
April, I'm becoming aware of the time and I know that we should
probably start wrapping things up.
And I wanted to know, what do you think for the future?
What do you see trends emerging in early childhood education related to
nature based learning and process art?
What do you think the future holds?
I am an optimistic person and wear rose colored glasses.
And so I feel really encouraged by, to me, the interest, particularly with
nature based approaches, , and more and more people knowing, some who only
discovered these approaches, , because of COVID and they moved outdoors as a
mitigation, technique to stay healthy, and then finding joy out there and
finding, that they really enjoyed it.
And so I feel like more and more people are interested in this and that
whole idea of nature inspired, like we don't have to be in a particular box.
Like we don't have to be fully outdoors.
You know, doesn't have to look like a certain way, but rather what will really,
work in our, in this setting or in this type of program, what can we make work?
And so, I have a Facebook group called Nature Inspired Teachers it's a
closed group so people have to answer some questions before they join.
And one of the questions is about like, what do you love or what is something
that you really appreciate about nature?
And it's beautiful.
Some of the things that people say.
And then one of the second question is, what supports do you need to
help this in your own classroom?
And what I find is that people really are looking for easy things to get started
and to feel the support of others.
Because oftentimes you might be in a more traditional setting
and you're the lone wolf.
You're the only one who's like thinking about going on adventure walks.
And then it can feel like, wait, why am I doing this?
Is this important?
Or maybe the teacher next door to me is making these really beautiful teacher
crafts and parents are happy with all of the yellow ducks hanging on the wash line,
you know, and so sometimes it feels like you're straying from the status quo, but
I feel like more people are interested in it and the more that we can find supports
for them and encouragement, , whether that's through, resources or, just
helping them overcome those limitations or those barriers that they see.
And sometimes those barriers are actually what they might think is , really
huge barrier when they have other people's eyes on it, like it isn't as
big as they maybe perceived it to be.
So, I guess I would say like working in community and if that community
doesn't exist in your current school or in your current child care program,
finding community, I think with others is a really great way to be inspired,
to find the encouragement and then find the ways, the resources or
what you need to make it happen.
And I've mentioned this several times, during our chat, but the idea of really
communicating, with our stakeholders about why you're doing what you do, uh,
because it could look like, Oh, she's just spending a lot of time outside because
she's doesn't, want to do the work of the indoors or something, but rather
communicating what is the value of this?
What is the benefit of this approach for both the, I think of the
whole child and communicating those values so that families really
understand why you do what you do.
And so when their kid comes home dirty at the end of the
day, they're like, Oh, good.
They clearly they were outside or that administrators, feel that way.
But I think part of it is just learning a huge body of research,
a growing body of research that supports a nature based approach.
And I think that it takes community to really feel connected and that
continual inspiration to do the work.
I think that's really good advice.
So thank you for that.
April, is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners
? Sometimes it can feel really overwhelming.
So I think for me, teaching truth is, you know, through action, we get the clarity.
So sometimes people might be like, well, I don't have it all
figured out or, I, I feel like I don't know enough before I do it.
It's baby steps, you know, it's like the baby step might be that you bring
plants into the indoor classroom.
And that's how you're bringing nature in by having living plants.
And maybe you start with the simplest living plants don't start with
orchids, start with something really, really simple that is hard to kill.
Um, but in the outdoor classroom, just think about what can I bring
into this fenced in area that adds nature to this, and that's probably
an ongoing thing of bringing, maybe bring in, a basket of something and
then, bring in some more loose parts or some tree cookies or something.
Uh, but little baby steps, I think adds up to it.
It's keeping it simple so that it doesn't, it's not like another thing
on our to do list, but rather getting outside to me brings a lot of joy for me.
And I just notice the changes in kids.
And then I'm like, Oh, this is really worth, this is really worth
investigating and making it work.
And whatever the obstacles are, like we can figure we're
resourceful and creative people.
We can figure out how to work around that and just take those
baby steps and build community.
And if you don't have the community right there where you are, find
community, in the virtual world.
That's wonderful advice, and I think that is so true, community, and
also you don't have to know it all.
It's a learning process, and asking the community for their help, but also
asking the children, and then you can learn together, and even children and
families could support the whole process, and you'd be amazed at what you'll get
once you've involved the community and you'll see they will start bringing
truckloads of things to you that you have at your disposal for your art and
for that whole connection to nature.
So you just have to ask I've always felt and community provides.
They're very generous.
April, where can people get hold of you?
So anybody listening, because you do a lot, not just, you're not
just working with children, but you also are supporting adults.
So how can people who want to get involved more with nature based
learning and even process art, how can they get hold of you and how can
they get your support if they need it?
I would say the best way to, to connect with me would be through
the face, my Facebook group, which is nature inspired teacher.
There is, like I said, there's a few questions before you join the group,
uh, but those questions really help me to think about the resources that
I create and share within the group.
Um, and so Nature Inspired Teacher on Facebook group is the best way.
If you want to get onto my mailing list, join the group.
When you're joining the group, you can put your email address in there
and I send out a weekly newsletter, and in the newsletter, I really aim
to deliver a lot of value and, really good resources, that support teachers
in doing, whether it's activity ideas or, just, you know, we talked earlier
about, outdoor classroom design and just, practical things that teachers can use.
So with the Facebook group, you can join if you join and add your
email that's really the best way.
And I do have a resource, that I'll share, a link with that'll be in the,
you could post in the show notes.
So people could, get more information there as well.
Thank you.
And I will put all the links to April's resources in the show notes
so anybody listening can just click on there very easily and go and get them.
April, this has been an amazing conversation, amazing opportunity,
I think, for anybody listening.
And I hope that they have been as inspired as I have been,
because this is the way forward.
You know, I talk about going back to the future.
Because we really do need to go back to those original connections
we have because we're losing them.
And if we want any kind of future, I think we need to go and reconnect
with those basic simple things that we're meant to have a connection with.
So I really thank you for bringing that to the forefront and helping
people to see with your generosity and your knowledge in this area just
how amazing it is for children and how they benefit in nature based
activities and in nature based learning.
So I thank you on behalf of everybody listening for your gracious
input to Blooming Curious today.
So thank you very much for that and I really hope that we'll see more of you
and perhaps in a later date you can come on again and we can talk more about that.
Absolutely.
Well, my husband and I want to come to Australia in 2028 for the
eclipse, you have a, I don't know if you know, but you'll have a full
totality, a solar eclipse in 2028.
So , we're planning a, um, yeah, July 22nd of 2028.
I look forward to it, I'll be waiting for you in 2028.
We could reflect on how much has happened in the last four years.
Brilliant.
Okay.
Well, thank you so much for being on Blooming Curious
and we'll speak to you soon.