WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.010 Today we have a very, very, very special guest on our Blooming Curious podcast. 00:00:05.029 --> 00:00:06.540 It is Dr. Claire Warden. 00:00:06.850 --> 00:00:10.810 She is an educational consultant who has developed her approach to nature 00:00:10.810 --> 00:00:16.989 pedagogy and child led inquiry through working in a variety of settings, 00:00:17.009 --> 00:00:21.341 including her own multi award winning nature kindergarten, Auchlone. 00:00:21.940 --> 00:00:25.640 She does advisory work and lecturing in further education. 00:00:25.660 --> 00:00:29.070 Claire is based in Scotland, but has traveled around the world. 00:00:29.630 --> 00:00:34.899 Claire is entrepreneurial leader in the field of nature pedagogy, a prolific 00:00:34.920 --> 00:00:39.389 author with her most recent titles being Green Teaching and Beyond the Gate. 00:00:39.889 --> 00:00:44.955 Her innovative work in planning with and for children, as well as nature pedagogy 00:00:44.965 --> 00:00:51.765 has led the field for over 35 years, which has improved the lives of countless 00:00:51.785 --> 00:00:53.704 children and families all over the world. 00:00:54.095 --> 00:00:59.504 Her advisory work to many training groups and as a university lecture 00:00:59.774 --> 00:01:04.704 is building a legacy of pedagogical skills that place the rights of children 00:01:05.004 --> 00:01:09.234 and the rest of the natural world at the very heart of her practice. 00:01:09.785 --> 00:01:12.244 So welcome Dr. Claire Warden to Blooming Curious. 00:01:12.274 --> 00:01:14.615 It's an honor and a pleasure to have you here. 00:01:15.134 --> 00:01:16.864 Well, I'm delighted to be here. 00:01:16.925 --> 00:01:18.064 Absolutely delighted. 00:01:18.065 --> 00:01:20.484 I'm looking forward to our conversation, Edwina. 00:01:20.705 --> 00:01:21.104 Great. 00:01:21.364 --> 00:01:23.845 Let's start off For those people who don't know, because 00:01:23.845 --> 00:01:27.205 often when I talk about nature pedagogy, they say, what is that? 00:01:27.265 --> 00:01:32.024 So perhaps you as the expert in nature pedagogy could tell the listeners 00:01:32.404 --> 00:01:35.905 what nature pedagogy actually is. 00:01:37.074 --> 00:01:37.454 Sure. 00:01:37.515 --> 00:01:41.815 Um, so it's the art of being with nature inside, outside, and beyond. 00:01:42.290 --> 00:01:44.480 So, so to unpack that a little bit. 00:01:44.490 --> 00:01:46.040 So, really I think it is an art form. 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:47.950 I think pedagogy is an art form. 00:01:48.270 --> 00:01:51.670 I think it's, there's an intangibility about the way we work with 00:01:51.670 --> 00:01:53.240 children that is almost intuitive. 00:01:54.070 --> 00:01:55.410 And it's , about relationship 00:01:55.650 --> 00:01:59.510 between ourselves as humans, but also about our relationship with 00:01:59.510 --> 00:02:00.550 the rest of the natural world. 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:05.360 Um, and then the idea and concept around inside, outside and beyond 00:02:05.390 --> 00:02:07.160 has two meanings, actually. 00:02:07.690 --> 00:02:10.850 The most common one is where I talk about location for learning. 00:02:11.180 --> 00:02:12.899 So I talk about inside a building. 00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:17.389 Um, I talk about outside, which is often a landscape space just on your doorstep. 00:02:18.325 --> 00:02:22.255 And then beyond is become known as beyond the gate, which is going out 00:02:22.415 --> 00:02:28.415 into a place or an area where there's a sense of wildness, a sense of, um, 00:02:28.894 --> 00:02:32.614 disentanglement, a little bit of, of unpredictability, if you like. 00:02:32.675 --> 00:02:37.485 Um, and then the second meaning of those two words is that inside is 00:02:37.485 --> 00:02:42.275 yourself, who we are, your soul, your beliefs, everything that drives you as 00:02:42.275 --> 00:02:47.485 a teacher, a practioner And then outside is your relationship with colleagues. 00:02:47.710 --> 00:02:53.100 About how do we create relationships, communities that wrap around children that 00:02:53.100 --> 00:02:59.030 are so centered on their needs that they really start to help children flourish. 00:02:59.570 --> 00:03:03.369 And then the third aspect of that is beyond, which is all my advocacy work, 00:03:03.369 --> 00:03:05.579 which is beyond as a global community. 00:03:06.055 --> 00:03:10.055 Meaning that if we work together as a global community of educators, teachers, 00:03:10.445 --> 00:03:15.495 um, everybody really, multi professional groups, um, we might make a difference 00:03:15.565 --> 00:03:19.115 for both ourselves as humanity, but also for the rest of the natural world. 00:03:20.674 --> 00:03:23.075 , that's, really, really powerful. 00:03:24.365 --> 00:03:28.975 And I think maybe that beyond is the part that I think a lot 00:03:28.975 --> 00:03:30.755 of people struggle with, right? 00:03:30.785 --> 00:03:34.660 Because If you just think about the natural world itself, it's that wildness. 00:03:34.660 --> 00:03:40.760 And I think now certainly parenting as well as education, there's so much fear 00:03:40.829 --> 00:03:43.289 around beyond the gate, the wildness. 00:03:43.289 --> 00:03:46.039 So we wrap kids up and we protect them and we don't want them to 00:03:46.039 --> 00:03:48.079 experience that or to take risks. 00:03:48.480 --> 00:03:53.100 And I guess, schools are also afraid of, you know, beyond the gate. 00:03:53.100 --> 00:03:56.639 I mean, , you've got to have so many adults per however many kids, 00:03:56.639 --> 00:04:00.299 you've got to get the ratios right, just to go somewhere and leave the 00:04:00.299 --> 00:04:05.309 school premises, you know, has forms to fill in and all sorts of things. 00:04:05.329 --> 00:04:10.109 So I guess that's something that we really have to work on as a community 00:04:10.109 --> 00:04:13.019 to give those, experiences to children. 00:04:14.829 --> 00:04:16.399 I think we've become indoor dwellers. 00:04:16.579 --> 00:04:20.549 And I think if you become an indoor dweller, it means that 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:22.589 you see security in walls. 00:04:22.619 --> 00:04:26.669 It means that you, you dress appropriately for being inside. 00:04:26.669 --> 00:04:30.709 And, and so when I'm working with schools and settings, you have got 00:04:30.719 --> 00:04:34.379 to change that practice to really shift to be comfortable outside. 00:04:34.954 --> 00:04:36.904 And that's why it's a pedagogical approach. 00:04:36.904 --> 00:04:39.454 It can't be something that you want to choose the afternoon. 00:04:39.874 --> 00:04:44.254 It has to more be something about the way that we change our understandings 00:04:44.254 --> 00:04:45.924 of the place of risk in education. 00:04:46.354 --> 00:04:50.104 It has to be something around the place of empowerment and agency. 00:04:50.104 --> 00:04:53.754 And, and in the book, actually, uh, that I wrote with Doug Farga. 00:04:54.164 --> 00:04:57.234 edited, a beautiful book called Beyond the Gate, which is all 00:04:57.234 --> 00:05:00.645 about the Australian context with a few colleagues internationally. 00:05:01.124 --> 00:05:04.334 One of the things we were really keen in that book to do was to 00:05:04.334 --> 00:05:10.654 show and, and uplift, if you like, voices of First Nation peoples. 00:05:10.714 --> 00:05:14.314 Um, so Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders, um, and to really 00:05:14.314 --> 00:05:18.694 acknowledge this, I suppose, history and tradition that many peoples 00:05:18.694 --> 00:05:21.914 have had around the world that we really, some of us have lost. 00:05:21.924 --> 00:05:26.969 And so, Um, the idea and concept of the beyond the gate as being more dangerous 00:05:26.989 --> 00:05:31.719 is a very Western idea, actually, because we've just become indoors and we, we 00:05:31.719 --> 00:05:35.199 think, you know, that everything out there is going to hurt us and don't get me 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:39.619 wrong, fully aware of all of the spiders and all the snakes and all your crocodile. 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:40.889 So I've got all of that. 00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:45.789 But, um, you know, if we don't start allowing children to, to come to 00:05:45.789 --> 00:05:49.589 love the natural world, and if we don't start allowing children to 00:05:49.659 --> 00:05:54.429 take risks, whether that's physical risks, which is like being up there 00:05:54.429 --> 00:05:59.479 climbing the tree, or even emotional risks about pushing your boundaries 00:05:59.869 --> 00:06:02.959 um, or intellectual risk taking, which is all about curiosity. 00:06:02.969 --> 00:06:05.879 It's all about problem solving and failure and things like that. 00:06:05.879 --> 00:06:10.399 If we don't embrace risk, then I do worry about where we're going 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:12.049 to be as a society in the future. 00:06:12.735 --> 00:06:12.804 I 00:06:12.804 --> 00:06:15.674 guess without risk you also don't have resilience, right? 00:06:15.694 --> 00:06:21.105 Which is a massive, massive thing because a lot of kids lack resilience. 00:06:21.105 --> 00:06:26.294 They lack the grit because I think everything's now so fearful, you know, 00:06:26.584 --> 00:06:31.664 I think risk taking is, is a huge component of outdoor learning, and 00:06:31.684 --> 00:06:37.074 as you say, just being in nature and having those risks is really important. 00:06:37.074 --> 00:06:42.014 So I hope that people who listen really rather invite risk, because 00:06:42.014 --> 00:06:44.164 it doesn't mean that you're going to go play in the traffic. 00:06:44.194 --> 00:06:48.434 It just means it's small amount of managed risks so that you can give 00:06:48.464 --> 00:06:53.464 children those little mini experiences so that they can build their schema in 00:06:53.465 --> 00:06:56.655 terms of what risk really is and you know, if you fall and you hurt yourself, 00:06:56.695 --> 00:07:00.214 oh, well, you know, you just get up, dust yourself off and off you go. 00:07:00.744 --> 00:07:01.434 Yeah, totally. 00:07:01.434 --> 00:07:05.834 And, you know, we do have an overbias on physical risk here and, you know, 00:07:06.054 --> 00:07:10.164 within many education programs around the world, it's, it's the physical 00:07:10.164 --> 00:07:14.454 risk taking that, that takes up all our attention, and, but now, as we've 00:07:14.454 --> 00:07:18.814 just said, I'm seeing children who are emotionally fearful, who won't 00:07:18.814 --> 00:07:20.894 even really engage in problem solving. 00:07:21.484 --> 00:07:24.984 They find curiosity really difficult because they're worried about failure. 00:07:25.385 --> 00:07:28.135 And if you're curious, it means you might not know the answer. 00:07:28.585 --> 00:07:33.174 Um, and so, you know, it's not just going to impact the physicality of children. 00:07:33.494 --> 00:07:36.655 It's going to impact everything around their development, I would suggest. 00:07:37.390 --> 00:07:42.679 Yes, and really what I'm trying to do is create this awareness of how important 00:07:42.689 --> 00:07:44.559 it is for children to be curious. 00:07:44.590 --> 00:07:47.899 And I don't think there is a better place for children to be 00:07:47.900 --> 00:07:49.979 curious than the natural world. 00:07:50.449 --> 00:07:54.619 That is where they are most curious because they love being actually outdoors. 00:07:54.849 --> 00:08:01.434 So I was wondering how does And you probably the world's renowned expert in 00:08:01.434 --> 00:08:06.904 this, how does fostering curiosity and fascination, because I know you talk 00:08:06.904 --> 00:08:12.405 a lot about fascination in children, really contribute, you've touched on it 00:08:12.405 --> 00:08:16.834 already a little bit, but how does that contribute to their development and the 00:08:16.834 --> 00:08:21.164 learning experiences that they have, particularly outside in the natural world? 00:08:21.534 --> 00:08:26.114 How do those two being outside, how does that, how does that influence 00:08:26.114 --> 00:08:29.014 their development and their curiosity and their fascination? 00:08:29.644 --> 00:08:33.684 I think one of the things that I've come to understand through the research is, 00:08:33.694 --> 00:08:36.054 you know, the physical research that, you know, when you're in a setting 00:08:36.224 --> 00:08:41.564 and you're being critical and you're really starting to analyze, I think. 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:46.119 The indoor space is, is very much more about adult intent. 00:08:46.129 --> 00:08:49.389 I mean, we've got beautiful examples of provocations being set up and, 00:08:49.729 --> 00:08:53.369 and they will inspire curiosity, but they have been an adult offering. 00:08:53.539 --> 00:08:53.859 Yep. 00:08:54.379 --> 00:08:57.709 When you go outside, there's an unpredictability of the natural world. 00:08:57.709 --> 00:09:00.119 You can't control when a butterfly is going to appear or 00:09:00.119 --> 00:09:01.649 when the wind is going to blow. 00:09:02.329 --> 00:09:06.509 And so I think sometimes that unpredictability of the natural world. 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:09.289 is the one thing that it's got above all else. 00:09:09.459 --> 00:09:12.029 You know, you can't control when it's going to rain, you know, 00:09:12.029 --> 00:09:15.099 all of those different things make it a place of difference. 00:09:15.939 --> 00:09:21.469 And I think when you can work on a system like Nature Pedagogy, which links together 00:09:21.529 --> 00:09:26.454 inside and outside and hopefully beyond, through your documentation, through 00:09:26.454 --> 00:09:30.594 your intentionality, then I think you help children nurture themselves and 00:09:30.594 --> 00:09:33.054 that sense of curiosity within them. 00:09:33.674 --> 00:09:38.464 I also think that the outside is the place where we encounter other living things. 00:09:38.465 --> 00:09:41.774 I mean, we can have in, you know, indoors, you can have a lovely plant and you 00:09:41.784 --> 00:09:43.404 might have a tank with some fish in it. 00:09:44.019 --> 00:09:49.049 But outside, you know, a beetle that comes around the corner or, you know, you might 00:09:49.049 --> 00:09:53.829 see a slug or a snail or those encounters with other living things, I think, are 00:09:53.969 --> 00:09:56.839 fairly monumental in children's lives. 00:09:56.839 --> 00:10:03.139 And I think they then actually help them switch on that curiosity button. 00:10:03.839 --> 00:10:07.849 And then once that, passion is ignited then I think they start to 00:10:07.849 --> 00:10:12.119 then transfer that skill from the snail to might be something indoors 00:10:12.119 --> 00:10:15.929 about how a tower is and why is it stable and why doesn't it fall over? 00:10:15.929 --> 00:10:19.339 But, but if you don't have the understanding of the unknown of the 00:10:19.339 --> 00:10:24.499 possibilities of the questioning, then your brain isn't really enveloping 00:10:24.499 --> 00:10:28.849 the idea of curiosity , because for some children, sadly, I think the 00:10:28.859 --> 00:10:31.579 indoor environment has flattened it. 00:10:31.659 --> 00:10:37.459 It's, it's killed what curiosity they're born with because adults, maybe with 00:10:37.469 --> 00:10:43.209 the best intention, have taken away some of that agency and empowerment and, 00:10:43.289 --> 00:10:47.229 um, really true choice from children. 00:10:47.339 --> 00:10:48.839 I think we're better now. 00:10:48.839 --> 00:10:53.849 I think the ideas of Nicholson and play affordances and loose parts and, and all 00:10:53.849 --> 00:10:57.979 of these other things that are really in people's vocabulary at the moment. 00:10:58.979 --> 00:10:59.629 really help. 00:11:00.539 --> 00:11:03.859 I've been talking to some other guests that I've had recently, a 00:11:03.859 --> 00:11:08.520 lot of them on loose parts and also outdoor learning in terms of outdoor 00:11:08.540 --> 00:11:10.669 spaces where children can learn. 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:15.110 So,, that is something that I think is moving in that direction, 00:11:15.110 --> 00:11:18.620 but, you know, slowly, slowly, and hopefully we'll make some changes in 00:11:18.620 --> 00:11:24.080 some inroads as someone said to me yesterday, it's a grassroots movement. 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:29.969 You've now, you've mentioned how the indoors is really, I guess even though 00:11:29.969 --> 00:11:33.259 we're putting out all those beautiful provocations, it's the outdoors that 00:11:33.299 --> 00:11:35.449 really holds fascination for children. 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:38.639 Do you think that there's some practical strategies? 00:11:39.099 --> 00:11:41.419 Because we're seeing a lot of things, I think it's not just, because 00:11:41.419 --> 00:11:45.049 we've also got this homeschooling boom going on as well around the 00:11:45.049 --> 00:11:47.319 world, especially over COVID, right? 00:11:47.974 --> 00:11:52.184 Do you think you've got some practical strategies or activities that educators 00:11:52.184 --> 00:11:56.494 and parents can use to implement curiosity in children in their day 00:11:56.544 --> 00:12:01.774 to day goings on and their day to day dealings and their day to day activities? 00:12:02.959 --> 00:12:07.539 Yeah, I think that the first thing is to look to yourself and one of the things 00:12:07.539 --> 00:12:11.069 if we believe in relationship, then children will seek relationship with 00:12:11.069 --> 00:12:12.899 you as the practitioner, the educator. 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:17.299 And so if you model curiosity, I think that's one of the most powerful things. 00:12:17.309 --> 00:12:20.509 So, of course, you know, the answer to things, you know, you're older, 00:12:20.509 --> 00:12:21.739 you've been on the planet much longer. 00:12:22.239 --> 00:12:26.239 But if you can then model that not in a false way, but say, well, I 00:12:26.239 --> 00:12:29.559 really don't know how that beetle got its name or I really don't know 00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:33.489 you know, why the grass is flowing like that and moving like that. 00:12:33.539 --> 00:12:37.039 And, and so, you know, you're modeling your own curiosity. 00:12:37.249 --> 00:12:41.219 And sadly, again, for some adults, they, they maybe have missed 00:12:41.229 --> 00:12:43.689 that process in their own lives. 00:12:43.699 --> 00:12:48.800 So they themselves don't feel, um, curious about the world around them. 00:12:48.859 --> 00:12:51.549 So, so I think modeling is the first thing I would say. 00:12:51.549 --> 00:12:56.934 The second is, is that whole process of documentation is the noticing of it. 00:12:57.474 --> 00:13:02.314 So when, um, I talk a lot about fascinations, that's really what 00:13:02.314 --> 00:13:05.364 I'm getting to is that we need to notice those fascinations and they 00:13:05.364 --> 00:13:10.569 may not be ones that, that link or identify with with an adult agenda. 00:13:11.029 --> 00:13:14.379 So I remember working, um, with my daughter, actually, and when she 00:13:14.379 --> 00:13:17.719 was outside playing with a beetle and she loved the beetle, absolutely 00:13:17.719 --> 00:13:21.509 adored the beetle and she wanted the beetle to go down her slide 00:13:21.529 --> 00:13:22.659 cause it was very important to her. 00:13:23.099 --> 00:13:26.339 So she picked up the beetle and put him on the slide and he went all the way down. 00:13:26.349 --> 00:13:29.109 Now in my brain, I was like, Oh, not good for the beetle. 00:13:29.559 --> 00:13:33.709 Um, I wonder what the beetle's thinking he's going to max down a plastic slide 00:13:33.719 --> 00:13:37.299 and wonder feels, you know, so I was saying, Oh, I wonder if that's comfortable 00:13:37.299 --> 00:13:40.469 for the beetle, you know, I wonder maybe we should put him under a leaf 00:13:40.469 --> 00:13:43.209 now, I think he's had enough of playing, you know, it's all 00:13:43.209 --> 00:13:44.609 of those semantics, isn't it? 00:13:44.619 --> 00:13:50.149 And then because they have that mimicry gene, it's all about them hearing that in 00:13:50.149 --> 00:13:52.299 an environment that embraces curiosity. 00:13:53.724 --> 00:13:57.364 I would say that the thing that my daughter Emily taught me when she 00:13:57.364 --> 00:14:03.244 was two was that curiosity, a sense of wildness, a sense of fascination 00:14:03.244 --> 00:14:05.454 can happen in the smallest of things. 00:14:05.724 --> 00:14:08.914 It can, you know, when people say to me, I don't have a big outside area, right? 00:14:09.194 --> 00:14:12.124 You know, I don't know, I've got nowhere for children to be fascinated. 00:14:12.124 --> 00:14:16.204 I was like, well, you could literally have a planting tray, you know, like 00:14:16.204 --> 00:14:20.264 a seed tray and you fill it with a piece of turf and bring that inside. 00:14:20.264 --> 00:14:23.354 If you are someone, I will put it in a window box or, you know, 00:14:23.364 --> 00:14:24.754 have it in an outside area. 00:14:25.229 --> 00:14:28.909 You're talking about a very small amount of grass that then children 00:14:28.909 --> 00:14:32.949 can have the time and the freedom to investigate in the way that they want. 00:14:32.999 --> 00:14:37.619 And I pretty much guarantee there will be something in that grass, even just 00:14:37.619 --> 00:14:42.139 a square foot of grass that will make them curious, that will fascinate them. 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:46.569 But it might be just the fact that the end of a stem of grass is a tube. 00:14:47.259 --> 00:14:52.319 And off we go on a line of inquiry about tubes, but it's come from 00:14:52.319 --> 00:14:56.739 that initial fascination of the stem of a piece of grass, you know, 00:14:56.779 --> 00:15:01.389 so it's about the strategies when people ask me about strategies. 00:15:01.389 --> 00:15:05.304 I said, well, you know, some of it is you know, this observation, but 00:15:05.304 --> 00:15:08.294 then for me, of course, it's the enrichment through the talking tub. 00:15:08.814 --> 00:15:14.414 And the point of my talking tubs is that they, they really stem from 00:15:14.424 --> 00:15:16.364 these fascinations that children see. 00:15:16.934 --> 00:15:18.524 So let's take the idea of the tube. 00:15:19.364 --> 00:15:19.754 All right. 00:15:19.754 --> 00:15:22.734 So other people might say, well, I'm going to teach about cylinders. 00:15:22.734 --> 00:15:27.234 I'm going to teach about tubes because it's on my, my mathematical curriculum. 00:15:27.234 --> 00:15:31.124 And I'm like, well, yeah, but there's an awful lot over here that we could explore 00:15:31.124 --> 00:15:36.064 that's more linked to the idea of tubes and the concept of being 00:15:36.074 --> 00:15:40.364 cylindrical, um, that stemmed from this child looking at the piece of grass. 00:15:40.734 --> 00:15:42.374 So what do you put in the talking tub? 00:15:42.434 --> 00:15:44.474 Well, you can put any kind of tubes in there. 00:15:44.474 --> 00:15:48.583 it might be photographs of a tunnel that a mole is made or a mouse 00:15:48.583 --> 00:15:54.163 or it could be, um, the, the tube that's part of a termite mound and 00:15:54.163 --> 00:15:55.643 you've just got photographs of that. 00:15:55.933 --> 00:15:58.803 It might be lengths of tubing, flexible and rigid. 00:15:59.323 --> 00:16:05.603 So your inquiry line has gone from, ooh, children are interested in tubes, to 00:16:05.653 --> 00:16:07.393 all of these different possibilities. 00:16:07.403 --> 00:16:11.823 So planning for me is, is important part of the work I do. 00:16:12.243 --> 00:16:15.923 So that's for you to think about the abstract nature of a concept. 00:16:16.283 --> 00:16:18.293 And that's where it comes down to your brain. 00:16:18.643 --> 00:16:18.813 Yeah. 00:16:18.813 --> 00:16:22.593 It's not like, Oh, we're all going to make a tube out of toilet roll, it's 00:16:22.663 --> 00:16:24.753 okay, what is the concept of a tube? 00:16:25.263 --> 00:16:28.733 And what other examples of that can I find in nature that 00:16:28.733 --> 00:16:30.913 would really inspire children? 00:16:30.973 --> 00:16:33.563 You know, um, and then my own tornado. 00:16:34.378 --> 00:16:34.888 Oh, there you go. 00:16:35.158 --> 00:16:37.118 See, we've all got such different things. 00:16:37.118 --> 00:16:41.068 And, you know, the tornado experience, could see water going down a 00:16:41.068 --> 00:16:42.328 toilet, all that kind of stuff. 00:16:43.168 --> 00:16:47.438 But, but if we embrace that, and we document that, which is what the 00:16:47.438 --> 00:16:50.568 floor books do, if you embrace all of that, then what you're doing is 00:16:50.588 --> 00:16:53.708 elevating the children's concepts. 00:16:53.708 --> 00:16:57.288 You're giving them a voice and you're allowing the creativity to 00:16:57.308 --> 00:17:00.728 be more visible, which, you know, um, I think is a really important 00:17:00.728 --> 00:17:02.278 part of the work that we all do. 00:17:02.718 --> 00:17:03.008 Yeah. 00:17:03.343 --> 00:17:08.973 You know, I am just so happy that you said two things, because I've been 00:17:08.983 --> 00:17:13.643 banging on about it, like there's no tomorrow over the last, I don't know how 00:17:13.643 --> 00:17:16.313 many blog posts and podcast episodes. 00:17:16.363 --> 00:17:19.813 One is that it all starts and ends with us. 00:17:20.433 --> 00:17:25.713 And two, the power of observation, because if we aren't curious as you 00:17:25.723 --> 00:17:28.443 said, you can't expect kids to be curious. 00:17:28.463 --> 00:17:32.623 If that kid, and I have actually seen this happen, comes to you with 00:17:32.623 --> 00:17:37.023 a snail on their hand, and you go, yuck, that's disgusting, put it down. 00:17:37.483 --> 00:17:38.563 That is it. 00:17:38.573 --> 00:17:39.243 It is. 00:17:39.463 --> 00:17:39.893 Done. 00:17:39.903 --> 00:17:40.813 It's over. 00:17:41.243 --> 00:17:44.903 You know, and I've always said it doesn't matter how you feel. 00:17:44.953 --> 00:17:48.653 It's not about you, it's about the children and our whole purpose 00:17:48.673 --> 00:17:56.053 is to stimulate and nurture that curiosity and fascination in children. 00:17:56.553 --> 00:17:59.663 I really feel that as educators, and that includes parents 00:17:59.663 --> 00:18:01.973 and that's another thing I keep banging on about you know, the 00:18:01.973 --> 00:18:06.353 fact that parents are their child's first educator starts with us. 00:18:06.843 --> 00:18:10.563 And I'm so pleased that you said that just to make sure. 00:18:10.943 --> 00:18:11.783 Thank you, Claire. 00:18:11.823 --> 00:18:12.023 Yep. 00:18:12.463 --> 00:18:13.313 No, it's okay. 00:18:13.383 --> 00:18:16.813 And I think, you know, it does, you know, there's all sorts of big questions, 00:18:16.813 --> 00:18:20.833 aren't there, around how do we support our colleagues to become curious? 00:18:21.693 --> 00:18:26.393 And I think, you know, I've done courses now for many years and, and I think that 00:18:26.543 --> 00:18:31.963 there's almost, um, an undoing of some of the messages they've been given, you 00:18:31.963 --> 00:18:35.013 know, so the ones I've loved have been the joint courses and courses that have 00:18:35.013 --> 00:18:38.853 lasted for maybe a week, you know, and it's an indulgent, I know with current 00:18:38.853 --> 00:18:43.133 budgets, but, you know, in those, what you do is you start off and people 00:18:43.133 --> 00:18:44.703 say to me, well, what's the activity? 00:18:45.298 --> 00:18:47.628 And say, well, I don't know what you think the activity is here. 00:18:47.908 --> 00:18:51.718 You know, you've got stones or you've got wool or you've got these natural fibers. 00:18:51.718 --> 00:18:52.778 What do you think we could do with them? 00:18:53.278 --> 00:18:56.618 And there's a real push to give me the activity, tell me what to do. 00:18:57.148 --> 00:19:00.498 And I think for sometimes in training, what you then have to do is allow people 00:19:00.498 --> 00:19:04.458 to go through that discomfort almost of going, but I don't know what to do. 00:19:04.838 --> 00:19:09.828 Okay, well, let's think because my mum used to say boredom is 00:19:09.828 --> 00:19:11.228 the stimulus for creativity. 00:19:11.658 --> 00:19:17.088 And I think sometimes we worry about giving both ourselves and children 00:19:17.118 --> 00:19:23.428 time to be bored, time to get a bit frustrated and, and, and, you know, 00:19:23.468 --> 00:19:25.738 unpick what's this knotty problem? 00:19:25.738 --> 00:19:26.848 I don't know what to do. 00:19:27.278 --> 00:19:29.358 And we give them the answer too quickly. 00:19:29.408 --> 00:19:30.028 And so. 00:19:30.478 --> 00:19:31.988 I think you're absolutely right. 00:19:32.008 --> 00:19:37.788 We as adults need to unpick our own agenda and say, why am I so 00:19:37.788 --> 00:19:39.928 bothered by the idea of curiosity? 00:19:40.518 --> 00:19:46.398 Why am I so bothered by the fact that I feel it's my job to provide activities 00:19:46.988 --> 00:19:51.858 rather than going, actually, it's my job to step back, step in when I'm needed, 00:19:51.858 --> 00:19:56.448 but step back and to think then about what I'm seeing and how can I take 00:19:56.468 --> 00:19:58.258 their inquiry line further forward? 00:19:58.638 --> 00:20:02.848 Um, so I think it's, I think for some people it's almost they have a 00:20:02.858 --> 00:20:07.218 growth mindset in their philosophy anyway and in their pedagogy and 00:20:07.218 --> 00:20:10.448 that's very easy therefore to embrace inquiry based learning. 00:20:10.718 --> 00:20:14.158 Um, and other people don't and, and they struggle a little bit with that 00:20:14.168 --> 00:20:16.318 freedom that curiosity demands of us. 00:20:16.383 --> 00:20:17.533 I 00:20:17.613 --> 00:20:21.313 think as well, where a lot of practitioners, struggle is that 00:20:21.313 --> 00:20:24.323 inquiry can be quite chaotic. 00:20:24.373 --> 00:20:27.623 And, as an educator, you don't want someone walking in, you've got, you know, 00:20:27.663 --> 00:20:31.883 25 kids in all directions and, you know, you're sort of herding cats a little bit. 00:20:32.163 --> 00:20:36.083 And I think they feel like, Oh no, this is, it's, it's not a good look, you know? 00:20:36.593 --> 00:20:39.383 But for some of us, it's just, yeah, it's okay. 00:20:39.463 --> 00:20:40.943 Uh, you know, it doesn't matter. 00:20:41.003 --> 00:20:43.023 And you know what all the children are doing and they're 00:20:43.023 --> 00:20:44.683 all working at their own things. 00:20:45.053 --> 00:20:48.993 And there's a, there's this hum, it's just this beautiful hum that, 00:20:49.163 --> 00:20:51.423 that takes place and you know, okay. 00:20:51.623 --> 00:20:56.863 They're, they're absolutely engaged, but getting there can be quite chaotic. 00:20:56.933 --> 00:21:03.233 I think it's just about trust and being brave and just pushing through that 00:21:03.243 --> 00:21:07.283 little bit of pain in the beginning and it, it all comes together beautifully. 00:21:07.703 --> 00:21:14.253 As you've said, um, Claire, you touched on One of the most important things, 00:21:14.253 --> 00:21:17.443 I think, part of your work, which is really the concept of the whole 00:21:17.473 --> 00:21:20.243 talking tubs and floor books really. 00:21:20.993 --> 00:21:24.253 And as you said, your talking tubs if you were talking about tubes, 00:21:24.253 --> 00:21:26.113 you'd have all those elements in it. 00:21:26.583 --> 00:21:31.463 So you've always used talking tubs really as a provocation, right? 00:21:31.463 --> 00:21:36.533 So you're, that's your provocation is your talking tub to, to start 00:21:36.533 --> 00:21:38.403 off the whole thinking process. 00:21:39.153 --> 00:21:43.783 And then of course the floor books really is how you make your learning visible 00:21:43.783 --> 00:21:46.323 and how you capture children's curiosity. 00:21:47.273 --> 00:21:49.863 Is that my, I'm saying the right thing, right? 00:21:50.583 --> 00:21:51.113 Absolutely. 00:21:51.273 --> 00:21:52.003 Just to make sure. 00:21:52.693 --> 00:21:54.613 Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, you're, yeah. 00:21:54.613 --> 00:21:55.303 There's also 00:21:55.323 --> 00:21:58.553 Now people also having, there's a lot of work in that field, which 00:21:58.553 --> 00:22:03.163 is amazing as well, is making that learning visible through learning walls. 00:22:03.443 --> 00:22:07.613 But I think learning walls and floor books ultimately are one and the same thing, 00:22:07.613 --> 00:22:09.053 they're doing the same thing. 00:22:09.053 --> 00:22:09.953 Would you agree? 00:22:10.023 --> 00:22:15.463 Or would floor books be really much better for those kids because it's 00:22:15.463 --> 00:22:19.493 sort of that whole tummy time thing as well and where they can really 00:22:20.073 --> 00:22:25.533 document where you can really document their wonderings their fascinations 00:22:26.043 --> 00:22:31.363 going forward and use it of course most importantly as a planning tool. 00:22:32.043 --> 00:22:35.103 I think it's the difference I mean Lillian Katz in the States. 00:22:35.963 --> 00:22:40.293 She did a lot of work around learning walls because what she felt for their 00:22:40.293 --> 00:22:45.798 context in America was that something on display would be more effective. 00:22:46.248 --> 00:22:50.168 And so the Learning Walls idea is indeed it's about a journey. 00:22:50.528 --> 00:22:51.848 You're doing a starting point. 00:22:51.848 --> 00:22:55.398 It was, she'd seen some work done by Loris Malaguzzi Reggio Emilia, 00:22:55.958 --> 00:22:58.928 and so she'd embraced that but put it into the American context. 00:22:58.928 --> 00:23:02.608 And so the Learning Wall indeed shows the journey, shows some of the, that learning. 00:23:03.268 --> 00:23:07.458 Often when I've seen Learning Walls, they are adult created display. 00:23:07.688 --> 00:23:08.818 Oh yeah, there's a difference. 00:23:08.828 --> 00:23:09.328 Making them. 00:23:09.528 --> 00:23:09.728 Yeah. 00:23:10.458 --> 00:23:14.398 The floor book is about planning with and for children. 00:23:14.808 --> 00:23:17.908 So children have a higher level of agency and empowerment. 00:23:17.918 --> 00:23:19.808 They're meant to write into the books. 00:23:20.298 --> 00:23:23.468 They could cut the photographs out themselves and the adult, 00:23:23.468 --> 00:23:26.868 what the adult's doing is really monitoring flow and direction. 00:23:27.428 --> 00:23:29.898 They're monitoring things like challenge. 00:23:30.393 --> 00:23:32.633 They're monitoring engagement from children. 00:23:32.633 --> 00:23:38.103 So they're used almost as an aspect of quality assurance, because there's got 00:23:38.103 --> 00:23:41.723 to be a system, if you're going to do an inquiry based approach, which is all 00:23:41.723 --> 00:23:46.633 about curiosity, learning, and things like that, then the, the floor book is the 00:23:46.633 --> 00:23:51.763 talk and thinking floor book is all about guiding that without overly directing it. 00:23:52.393 --> 00:23:55.233 So I've always done the analogy of, of a bit of a river. 00:23:55.243 --> 00:23:57.463 And so if you imagine you have a spring at the top. 00:23:58.003 --> 00:23:59.763 That's that initial fascination. 00:24:00.143 --> 00:24:03.203 And then we, you know, we come down and it's a little bit turbulent in 00:24:03.203 --> 00:24:04.973 the first stages of a, of a river. 00:24:05.443 --> 00:24:07.663 Streams burbling and there's lots of things. 00:24:07.663 --> 00:24:10.663 All children's voices quite fascinated by lots of different things. 00:24:11.083 --> 00:24:13.463 And then the flow starts to really emerge and the flow. 00:24:13.463 --> 00:24:17.063 Flow is the thing you talked about, which is you go from a sense of, 00:24:17.413 --> 00:24:21.283 of, um, lots of different things all happening into this more solid, 00:24:21.283 --> 00:24:24.303 smoother line of inquiry, if you like. 00:24:24.773 --> 00:24:29.403 And in that big river, then that's the direction you're changing the 00:24:29.403 --> 00:24:32.493 direction of the river slightly by the use of the talking tub. 00:24:32.993 --> 00:24:36.093 So if I was, for example, to observe that, so we'll take 00:24:36.143 --> 00:24:37.513 the analogy of the tubes again. 00:24:38.563 --> 00:24:43.103 One of the children became fascinated by building tunnels and they've been 00:24:43.103 --> 00:24:44.843 showing it in the block play area. 00:24:44.843 --> 00:24:46.993 They've been making tubes out of cardboard. 00:24:47.383 --> 00:24:51.383 They've been really fascinated by the speed of the way that the water moves 00:24:51.383 --> 00:24:53.423 down the guttering tunnels outside. 00:24:53.793 --> 00:24:55.833 You're seeing this repeated fascination. 00:24:56.243 --> 00:25:00.333 What I would then do is adjust the contents of the talking tub to 00:25:00.333 --> 00:25:05.243 have more stuff in it that will go deeper into the idea of tunnels and 00:25:05.243 --> 00:25:09.093 structures and how we could make them of different sizes and things like that. 00:25:09.603 --> 00:25:12.508 So the talking tub isn't just used once, it's used 00:25:12.878 --> 00:25:18.318 and adapts all the way down that river, and then the boulders in your 00:25:18.318 --> 00:25:20.718 big river are you, you're the adult. 00:25:20.728 --> 00:25:24.578 I mean, you, you affects the learning process, whether you like it or not. 00:25:24.908 --> 00:25:27.568 You're bound to, whether you're a teacher in a primary school or 00:25:27.568 --> 00:25:31.518 you're a practitioner in an early years environment, you are there and 00:25:31.528 --> 00:25:33.098 your interactions will be adjusting 00:25:33.098 --> 00:25:33.758 the learning. 00:25:34.248 --> 00:25:39.028 So we meander down this river, yeah, and we get to a point in the 00:25:39.028 --> 00:25:40.568 river where there's maybe a dam. 00:25:41.098 --> 00:25:45.938 And the dam for me is quite interesting in planning because I often think people plan 00:25:45.938 --> 00:25:50.248 for six weeks or they plan to the half or they say, well, I'm planning for a term. 00:25:50.708 --> 00:25:55.328 So we have these quite artificial blocks in our learning planning or planning 00:25:55.328 --> 00:25:57.558 for learning, um, which I call a dam. 00:25:57.658 --> 00:25:57.888 Yeah. 00:25:57.888 --> 00:26:03.378 Now, if you're a child with special educational rights, You may only just 00:26:03.378 --> 00:26:09.528 have switched on to the concept of tunnels about two weeks before the end of term and 00:26:09.528 --> 00:26:14.818 so you're, but you're enthused and you're curious about tunnels now, but if you 00:26:14.818 --> 00:26:18.848 think about it as an adult thing, you're about to stop your inquiry around funnels 00:26:18.848 --> 00:26:20.868 and tubes and go on to something else. 00:26:21.198 --> 00:26:24.278 Well, if you put it in the talking tub, if you put it in the, sorry, in the floor 00:26:24.278 --> 00:26:28.008 book, floor books are in your book corner. 00:26:28.048 --> 00:26:32.038 They're meant to be read, revisited a lot by children. 00:26:32.628 --> 00:26:36.558 That means that if that child with special educational rights comes in 00:26:36.588 --> 00:26:41.318 after the holiday and says, you know, I went to to France and I went through 00:26:41.318 --> 00:26:45.868 a tunnel in my car and my mum said it was the longest tunnel ever, whatever. 00:26:46.518 --> 00:26:50.538 You then take that child back to the original floor book and date it and 00:26:50.538 --> 00:26:52.108 say, actually Johnny's come in with it. 00:26:52.118 --> 00:26:56.378 So, so in every dam system on a river, there's always the outflow. 00:26:56.398 --> 00:26:58.378 There's always these little trickles of water. 00:26:58.773 --> 00:27:03.183 That keep on going and that's children who sustain, um, a 00:27:03.183 --> 00:27:04.683 fascination for longer than others. 00:27:04.693 --> 00:27:09.313 It's for children who have special rights, who just need longer to maybe to get 00:27:09.313 --> 00:27:11.013 to the depth that they want to explore. 00:27:11.673 --> 00:27:15.543 So, so the difference for me is that the, in summary, really, I suppose, 00:27:15.543 --> 00:27:19.393 is that the floor books have this long flow of learning that might 00:27:19.403 --> 00:27:24.323 take a year, might be six months, it might be just that it's three weeks. 00:27:24.333 --> 00:27:26.523 So they are differing timeframes. 00:27:27.748 --> 00:27:30.878 They are held in the place of children, which is on the floor, usually 00:27:31.628 --> 00:27:33.738 presented very easily to parents. 00:27:34.198 --> 00:27:37.448 They're kept almost as a quality assurance process. 00:27:37.448 --> 00:27:42.628 So what I encourage settings to do is to keep the first floor book they did and 00:27:42.628 --> 00:27:44.758 keep maybe the one from the third term. 00:27:44.758 --> 00:27:49.358 And then as they do it, they can then show anybody coming to visit very easily. 00:27:49.398 --> 00:27:51.888 Look, this is our improvement journey. 00:27:52.468 --> 00:27:53.568 This is what we've been doing. 00:27:53.568 --> 00:27:55.508 And at the back of the floor books, don't forget. 00:27:56.148 --> 00:27:58.178 That's where you're getting your curriculum outcomes. 00:27:58.188 --> 00:28:02.898 So, you're always tracking back to curriculum and being held accountable to 00:28:02.898 --> 00:28:08.908 curriculum, which I think eases teachers and practitioners a little because some 00:28:08.938 --> 00:28:13.848 of the very open ended inquiries can take you off in so many different directions. 00:28:13.848 --> 00:28:18.048 So, the banks of your river, if you like, are a little bit more defined by your 00:28:18.048 --> 00:28:23.108 talking tub, and you have evidence of that that is accountable to a curriculum. 00:28:23.108 --> 00:28:25.758 So, it just helps people relax a little bit more. 00:28:26.383 --> 00:28:29.113 Now, I just want to touch on one thing there. 00:28:29.773 --> 00:28:34.923 I'm just thinking in terms of teachers in classrooms, you know, they're 00:28:34.923 --> 00:28:37.093 so accountable to the curriculum. 00:28:37.093 --> 00:28:39.723 They're so held accountable to the curriculum the whole time. 00:28:39.723 --> 00:28:44.038 And I think a lot of educators are are afraid to diverge from that 00:28:44.068 --> 00:28:48.558 because the curriculum now is I don't know about in England and Scotland, 00:28:48.558 --> 00:28:50.458 but I guess it's very similar. 00:28:50.688 --> 00:28:53.728 It is so overcrowded for children now. 00:28:54.338 --> 00:28:56.928 And so teachers, I think are always just thinking, Oh my gosh, 00:28:56.928 --> 00:28:59.268 I've got to get through this curriculum and all the content. 00:28:59.268 --> 00:29:02.168 How do I fit in the science and the social studies? 00:29:02.168 --> 00:29:04.018 How do I, how do I fit all this in? 00:29:04.018 --> 00:29:06.218 And I've always thought, well, you know, inquiry inquiry. 00:29:06.218 --> 00:29:10.348 You know, Kath Murdoch said that so beautifully, it's not a separate subject, 00:29:10.748 --> 00:29:15.028 it's a mindset, it's a stance that we take, but I think a lot of teachers 00:29:15.068 --> 00:29:19.838 still need that reassurance that, yes, we can do this, but we can still 00:29:19.848 --> 00:29:24.768 meet curriculum outcomes, even though we're going down this floor book and 00:29:24.768 --> 00:29:28.378 we're going down this provocation and we're going down this inquiry path. 00:29:28.768 --> 00:29:33.658 What would you say to educators to sort of ease their anxiety and stress around that? 00:29:34.753 --> 00:29:35.543 I think you're absolutely right. 00:29:35.543 --> 00:29:38.413 I mean, inquiry is, is a pedagogical approach to the way 00:29:38.413 --> 00:29:39.223 that you work with children. 00:29:39.873 --> 00:29:43.943 I think that, you know, you can't say, I'm going to do inquiry on Tuesday afternoon. 00:29:44.173 --> 00:29:47.833 It has to be the philosophy of your classroom or the, of your setting. 00:29:48.463 --> 00:29:51.173 I think, you know, there's no reason, for example, I'm working 00:29:51.173 --> 00:29:54.433 with a group right now and they are looking at mathematics teaching. 00:29:54.433 --> 00:29:57.673 And the research says that we can do direct teaching of core 00:29:57.673 --> 00:29:59.458 skills in maths, Absolutely. 00:29:59.918 --> 00:30:01.638 We can do that and we'll do it fast. 00:30:01.668 --> 00:30:05.358 But what we're finding is the retention, the passion, the 00:30:05.358 --> 00:30:09.398 understanding of the applied status of the maths has been overlooked 00:30:09.618 --> 00:30:10.798 because people are going too fast. 00:30:11.258 --> 00:30:14.348 So what we're now doing is saying, okay, you teach the mathematical 00:30:14.368 --> 00:30:18.668 concept or any concept in any subject, to be honest with you. 00:30:18.958 --> 00:30:23.618 And then what the floor book does is document the application of that. 00:30:24.048 --> 00:30:27.228 So say, for example, I don't know, you were looking at measure. 00:30:27.518 --> 00:30:31.628 Alright, and a classic one for us was that the children had decided 00:30:31.628 --> 00:30:33.938 that, you know, we taught them about the measure, we taught them about 00:30:33.938 --> 00:30:35.748 centimetres, half metres, all that. 00:30:36.468 --> 00:30:39.978 And then they had to make their own measuring sticks to go out to, 00:30:40.008 --> 00:30:43.328 because we were going for a walk and the puddles were on the way, so 00:30:43.328 --> 00:30:44.658 we wanted to make puddle measurers. 00:30:45.058 --> 00:30:48.638 So that part of it is the bit that I want to document. 00:30:48.718 --> 00:30:53.858 Children's understanding of a concept or a skill or a piece of knowledge in context. 00:30:54.108 --> 00:30:57.798 And it's only really then we can see whether or not they truly have learnt it. 00:30:58.188 --> 00:31:03.848 Now you can't do that all the time because that's when we end up, we run out of time. 00:31:04.238 --> 00:31:06.888 So what you do is you, as a teacher in a classroom, you might say, 00:31:06.888 --> 00:31:11.468 right, well, my lens this term is going to be on the inquiry and 00:31:11.468 --> 00:31:13.768 the child's theories around maths. 00:31:14.358 --> 00:31:18.403 or I might be looking at some interesting stuff coming out of science. 00:31:18.413 --> 00:31:19.723 So let me have a little look at that. 00:31:20.063 --> 00:31:24.323 And so you develop in, in the primary school, you might develop more of a lens 00:31:24.323 --> 00:31:27.303 where you're really focusing on an aspect. 00:31:27.303 --> 00:31:29.923 So it could be an overt curriculum area, or it could be 00:31:29.923 --> 00:31:31.433 the interdisciplinary themes. 00:31:31.853 --> 00:31:35.978 It could be something that crosses across the whole of your curriculum, which of 00:31:36.018 --> 00:31:37.608 course is in the Australian curriculum. 00:31:38.108 --> 00:31:41.948 Um, I mean, it's lovely to see that the EYLF now has actually written 00:31:41.948 --> 00:31:43.588 in Talking Thinking For All books. 00:31:43.588 --> 00:31:46.918 So I'm very excited to see the work in there. 00:31:46.918 --> 00:31:51.608 So there's obviously, people are embracing this idea of inquiry, I 00:31:51.608 --> 00:31:55.908 think a little bit more now than, than I've seen, you know, 30 years ago. 00:31:56.763 --> 00:32:00.343 They are, but you're also seeing on the other side of the coin, everybody's going, 00:32:00.363 --> 00:32:02.043 Oh, but what about explicit instruction? 00:32:02.063 --> 00:32:03.613 What about explicit instruction? 00:32:03.943 --> 00:32:06.958 So that's a massive thing as well, because if they think that if they're 00:32:06.958 --> 00:32:10.663 going to embrace inquiry, they have to lose explicit instruction. 00:32:11.073 --> 00:32:13.723 So they're not quite seeing that the two actually dovetail. 00:32:14.513 --> 00:32:14.923 Mm hmm. 00:32:14.983 --> 00:32:15.663 Absolutely. 00:32:15.773 --> 00:32:16.323 Absolutely. 00:32:16.603 --> 00:32:17.843 And that's the key thing, isn't it? 00:32:17.843 --> 00:32:21.523 It's like in the early 70s, there was the whole idea that children 00:32:21.523 --> 00:32:24.793 just could float in and they would absorb what they needed to know. 00:32:24.833 --> 00:32:27.163 And the researchers actually said, no, that's not true. 00:32:27.163 --> 00:32:31.353 So there was a really good piece of work done by Imran Blatchford. 00:32:31.383 --> 00:32:36.473 And, um, she looked at the idea of the significant adult, the EPI project 00:32:36.473 --> 00:32:38.323 and, and the adults make a difference. 00:32:38.383 --> 00:32:41.153 As you've already said, Edwina, you know, the adults are there. 00:32:41.153 --> 00:32:42.723 We're not there just to supervise. 00:32:43.168 --> 00:32:46.878 Um, we are there to interact, to plan, to talk about, how 00:32:46.878 --> 00:32:48.468 we can scaffold that learning. 00:32:48.718 --> 00:32:52.268 Making sure there is obviously still time for children initiated to work. 00:32:52.298 --> 00:32:54.928 But, um, it's that pedagogical dance. 00:32:54.928 --> 00:32:57.618 It's the two things coming together that I think make the difference. 00:32:58.483 --> 00:32:59.363 That's really powerful. 00:32:59.363 --> 00:33:03.043 And I think , as you've said in the beginning, we as communities, and 00:33:03.043 --> 00:33:06.603 even as a school community, from leadership down, I think there has to 00:33:06.603 --> 00:33:11.253 be a cultural shift, a cultural shift in, within schools, within communities, 00:33:11.263 --> 00:33:17.523 within society, to actually place more of an emphasis on curiosity. 00:33:17.753 --> 00:33:21.263 Claire, most people really aren't as lucky as Auchlone to be in a 00:33:21.263 --> 00:33:25.093 beautiful outdoor setting, what if they're in an urban environment? 00:33:25.113 --> 00:33:29.373 Is it just bringing in that pot plant or is there, more that they can do. 00:33:30.063 --> 00:33:34.703 I think, um, I think what you have to do is to look at the, um, the natural world, 00:33:34.743 --> 00:33:38.193 I suppose, in an elemental kind of way. 00:33:38.203 --> 00:33:42.883 So, if you took the four elements of fire, earth, air, and water and say 00:33:42.883 --> 00:33:46.653 to yourself, all right, how are those four elements displayed at Auchlone? 00:33:46.673 --> 00:33:49.823 Well, you know, we are lucky we have dappled light from the forest 00:33:49.893 --> 00:33:53.108 and we have a stream You have water flowing, you have lots of rain. 00:33:53.338 --> 00:33:55.348 So it's very easy in that space. 00:33:55.668 --> 00:33:59.808 It can also be very hard because, you know, in February it's 00:33:59.818 --> 00:34:01.618 freezing cold and we get wet rain. 00:34:02.268 --> 00:34:06.498 Um, so if you take that then and say, okay, what does that look like inside? 00:34:07.313 --> 00:34:11.633 Well, the fire, the light becomes the fireplace maybe, or it might be a candle. 00:34:12.173 --> 00:34:16.613 Um, it could just be the, the light table that you've got and the water. 00:34:16.613 --> 00:34:20.483 Well, that becomes maybe a, you know, I've seen people who've put trickle fountains 00:34:20.483 --> 00:34:24.933 in, I've seen other people who've just literally done a beautiful soundscape 00:34:24.933 --> 00:34:27.063 around birdsong and water inside. 00:34:27.143 --> 00:34:27.373 So. 00:34:27.798 --> 00:34:30.048 I think there's huge amounts that we can do. 00:34:30.048 --> 00:34:31.878 But again, it comes back to creativity. 00:34:32.208 --> 00:34:36.528 It comes back to, um, the idea that it's okay to do that. 00:34:36.858 --> 00:34:40.698 Whereas, you know, when I say to people, why can't you put a recorder 00:34:40.758 --> 00:34:44.658 device by your bird table and pipe it directly into your playroom? 00:34:44.958 --> 00:34:45.678 Why can't you do that? 00:34:45.683 --> 00:34:47.628 And they're like, well, 'cause we didn't think we could. 00:34:47.718 --> 00:34:48.588 Well, yeah, you can. 00:34:48.648 --> 00:34:49.248 Why not? 00:34:49.248 --> 00:34:49.518 You know? 00:34:49.518 --> 00:34:52.428 So putting sand on the floor, putting, well, there's, there's 00:34:52.428 --> 00:34:54.048 huge amounts and I do think. 00:34:54.593 --> 00:34:57.853 You know, there's been a big uptake in things like the, you know, a lot 00:34:57.853 --> 00:35:03.103 of the Nordic philosophies around Bushkinder and philosophical, that 00:35:03.263 --> 00:35:05.143 are ancient first nation thinkings. 00:35:05.593 --> 00:35:09.593 And then you've got, you know, even down to shops like Ikea, who are like 00:35:09.643 --> 00:35:11.623 always advocating natural materials. 00:35:11.623 --> 00:35:17.973 So We've got the idea of this kind of biophilic design, which is what we 00:35:17.973 --> 00:35:22.253 see in Reggio Emilia as well, which is these, these very earthy shades and 00:35:22.253 --> 00:35:24.243 we use baskets and we bring in stone. 00:35:24.243 --> 00:35:26.083 So we've got the aesthetic. 00:35:26.663 --> 00:35:30.283 It's then using that environment effectively, which is really what 00:35:30.283 --> 00:35:31.943 the nature pedagogy is about. 00:35:31.943 --> 00:35:34.583 So you need to do the two things together. 00:35:34.583 --> 00:35:38.573 I think the pedagogical belief structure and the beautiful environment. 00:35:38.613 --> 00:35:39.813 And when you get those two right. 00:35:40.408 --> 00:35:43.948 Then you get a lovely synergy there happening, which I 00:35:43.948 --> 00:35:45.798 think is a wonderful thing. 00:35:46.388 --> 00:35:51.478 You mentioned, Beyond the Gate, but I also, received this little guy in the 00:35:51.478 --> 00:35:56.893 mail Your book, actually it arrived today, I haven't had a chance to read 00:35:56.893 --> 00:36:02.093 it, I've read a few little synopsis on line Green Teaching, Nature Pedagogies 00:36:02.143 --> 00:36:04.123 for Climate Change and Sustainability. 00:36:04.623 --> 00:36:06.233 What was your inspiration for that? 00:36:06.403 --> 00:36:08.633 And tell us a little bit about the book. 00:36:09.293 --> 00:36:09.533 Sure. 00:36:09.783 --> 00:36:13.663 It's actually, um, a lot of it was based around the research from my 00:36:13.663 --> 00:36:18.963 doctorate studies, my PhD. And, um, what I was looking at was, was the 00:36:19.333 --> 00:36:23.973 theorization, if you like, and the creation of nature pedagogy, um, within 00:36:23.983 --> 00:36:25.913 the context of the work I was doing. 00:36:25.913 --> 00:36:30.613 And, it, it became very apparent that I aligned very closely with 00:36:30.633 --> 00:36:32.843 First Nation theories and ideas. 00:36:33.493 --> 00:36:37.223 Um, and one of the things that links them very closely is the idea of 00:36:37.223 --> 00:36:38.783 climate change and sustainability. 00:36:39.213 --> 00:36:43.613 So, nature kindergartens and forest schools and bush kindies and things 00:36:43.613 --> 00:36:48.253 like that are sustainable models because they place the rights of the 00:36:48.253 --> 00:36:52.078 natural world and humans, obviously, which is part of the natural world, 00:36:52.298 --> 00:36:53.468 in the middle of all of that. 00:36:54.408 --> 00:37:00.828 So if you can then, um, sort of take the ideas, I suppose, around that and live 00:37:00.908 --> 00:37:06.058 in that way and be in that way, then it means that your carbon footprint is low. 00:37:06.058 --> 00:37:09.828 It means that you're really thinking about your purchasing powers. 00:37:09.828 --> 00:37:14.958 And so there are quite a lot of graphics in the book that help people see why 00:37:14.968 --> 00:37:18.548 nature pedagogy is going to be the way that we're going to need to work if we're 00:37:18.548 --> 00:37:20.378 going to have an impact on climate change. 00:37:20.378 --> 00:37:24.908 , And sustainability has been on people's agendas a long time, but it's almost 00:37:24.908 --> 00:37:28.618 been well, I do a worm farm and, um, you know, I collect the litter and 00:37:28.618 --> 00:37:30.438 I recycle that and that's fabulous. 00:37:30.918 --> 00:37:36.068 But again, if we embrace a way of being, a way of teaching, a way of 00:37:36.068 --> 00:37:40.828 educating that places the rights of nature and humans in the middle of it, 00:37:41.483 --> 00:37:44.853 then, then it's going to be good for us and then we'll have a planet to live on. 00:37:44.853 --> 00:37:48.723 So the more I started to research and the more I started to write, the more 00:37:48.723 --> 00:37:54.523 I thought actually, nature pedagogies, um, are the way forward for us. 00:37:54.563 --> 00:37:57.583 And so it's something that every teacher can do, every educator 00:37:57.583 --> 00:37:59.753 can do, because it is a ground up. 00:37:59.783 --> 00:38:01.543 You said that earlier on in the podcast. 00:38:01.543 --> 00:38:03.363 It's like, it's a ground up movement. 00:38:03.628 --> 00:38:07.618 And so if we all make little changes to the way we teach, if we all think 00:38:07.618 --> 00:38:11.188 about the natural world in the, the work that we're doing with children, then, 00:38:11.238 --> 00:38:14.598 then it spreads across into the next generations, so that's, that's what 00:38:14.598 --> 00:38:16.178 the book was around, green teaching. 00:38:16.758 --> 00:38:17.038 Right. 00:38:17.038 --> 00:38:19.708 I think I'll link it all in the show notes for everybody. 00:38:19.758 --> 00:38:22.558 Claire, I think just to finish off, is there anything else that you 00:38:22.558 --> 00:38:27.128 feel is really important, a real important message to leave with people? 00:38:27.998 --> 00:38:33.848 I think to trust in yourself, I think, um, I think we're incredibly talented 00:38:33.988 --> 00:38:38.278 and skilled profession, actually, but it's sometimes undervalued, 00:38:38.278 --> 00:38:43.913 but that sense of, um, Allowing yourself some freedom to think about 00:38:43.913 --> 00:38:47.143 what if, what if I was to do this? 00:38:47.143 --> 00:38:48.463 What if this happened? 00:38:48.893 --> 00:38:52.913 And allowing that divergent thinking to come into your practice a little bit more. 00:38:53.363 --> 00:38:58.003 Um, I think we could allow our own creativity and curiosity to flourish 00:38:58.113 --> 00:39:02.943 and that would make us perhaps a happier profession, um, but certainly make it 00:39:02.943 --> 00:39:04.503 much more engaging for young children. 00:39:05.513 --> 00:39:08.033 I will put everything in the show notes, but would you like to just tell 00:39:08.033 --> 00:39:09.683 people where they can get hold of you? 00:39:09.743 --> 00:39:13.163 And I know you have on your website, beautiful courses people can sign up 00:39:13.173 --> 00:39:17.343 to do, you've still got, , amazing books and loads of resources. 00:39:17.353 --> 00:39:20.643 So tell people where they can get hold of you. 00:39:20.703 --> 00:39:24.083 Sure the, obviously Google Meister is the one, find me on Google, 00:39:24.173 --> 00:39:28.313 just Google my name, but the main website is Mind Stretches Academy. 00:39:28.753 --> 00:39:32.063 And on Mind Stretches Academy, there are lots and lots of online courses 00:39:32.073 --> 00:39:35.293 about all aspects of practice, but it's, it's core belief structure 00:39:35.303 --> 00:39:39.883 really is around nature pedagogy and documenting through floor books. 00:39:40.513 --> 00:39:45.123 Dr. Clare Warden, it has been an absolute pleasure having you on the 00:39:45.123 --> 00:39:47.663 podcast today, an honor and a privilege. 00:39:47.713 --> 00:39:53.103 So thank you very much for being here and for just your inspiration. 00:39:53.413 --> 00:39:57.343 And you really are an inspiration, certainly to me, because it was through 00:39:57.343 --> 00:40:02.393 you that my whole pedagogy changed and I'm forever grateful for that. 00:40:02.403 --> 00:40:05.443 So thank you very much for being on Blooming Curious today. 00:40:05.713 --> 00:40:11.743 And I hope everybody listening really has benefited from your absolute awesomeness. 00:40:11.743 --> 00:40:13.563 Thank you so much for having me, Edwina. 00:40:14.013 --> 00:40:15.033 Let's keep in touch.