Welcome back to the Men of Issachar podcast.
We have a doozy for you today. We're going to
be talking about some hard things, some weird
things, and some things that might make you a
little bit uncomfortable. As Christians, we may
think that we're immune to these subjects. I
think we need to have as good or better understanding
of these subjects so that you can reach those
outside of a relationship with Jesus and help
them to see truth. We're going to be talking
about aliens or the possibility of aliens. Our
prayer is that our eyes are open to truth like
Elisha's assistant that Jeff tells a story about
later. We talk about other tools available to
you to learn more about these things that we're
talking about and hopefully give some perspective
on these subjects that strengthen your walk with
the one true God. So sit back, relax, not too
much though, and listen as Jeff Wright, Terry
Gant, and myself, Jason Gull, strive to be men
of Issachar. Hey, welcome back to the Men of
Issachar. I'm here with my friends Jason Gaw
and Terry Gant. And we're talking about something
I suggested to the group. It may seem out there
to some people, but I think there's a much more
than zero chance the church has to think about
this question in coming days. And so we're going
to talk about what should Christians think if
the U .S. government this year announces that
they have made contact with extraterrestrial
life and, or have collected biological samples
of extraterrestrial life. And I'm not talking
about bacteria and, you know, single set organisms
or something like that, but intelligent extraterrestrial
life. And I hope that doesn't strike everybody
as too woo. Um, there's a lot of interest in
what you might call preternatural or supernatural
phenomenon in the Christian community. There's
podcasts like Blurry Creatures, Haunted Cosmos.
They do big numbers. So lots of Christians are
talking about this, but I'm actually thinking
about this as sort of a discipleship question.
Let me start off with a general question on human
psychology. Why is it that humans are so fascinated
with the concept of intelligent life from another
world? because this has been you know we have
all kinds of science fiction books movies you
know some pretty good stories even that involve
this some classics i might dare say so what is
it about extraterrestrial life that is a compelling
trope that keeps us kind of coming back to this
question and i'm just talking about separate
from whether or not we actually or if some information
is revealed but what is it that keeps us interested
in this Okay. Well, so Terry, I would answer
that a couple of different ways. I'm going to
actually go to science fiction to answer a little
bit of that. Okay. C .S. Lewis, who you've probably
heard cited on this podcast pretty often wrote
a series of sci -fi novels that are less famous
than his Narnia series. Which is a crime. Yeah,
absolutely. Well, I don't know, Narnia is pretty
good, so it's tough to say they're better, but
if you like Narnia, you really need to also read
this. It's on par. And of the same spirit, it's
like Narnia for grownups. And I say that with
no derision towards Narnia for children. Well,
if I'm not mistaken, I believe that the subtitle
to the third in the trilogy is A Modern Fairytale
for Grownups. Is that right? Yeah, that sounds
right. And I assume that was C .S. Lewis's inclusion
and not an editor's... choice, because it seems
pretty consistent across all the different bindings
and versions. So he has that in mind. Yeah. So
guys, uh, the book series there, sometimes you
hear him called the space trilogy. He wouldn't
have liked that because space implies emptiness.
And he saw the cosmos as full. So, you can call
them the Ransom Trilogy. It's Out of the Silent
Planet. That's book one, Paralandra, book two.
Book three is That Hideous Strength. And just
super quick summary, Out of the Silent Planet,
the protagonist who's built on Tolkien, the protagonist
is supposed to be very similar to his friend
Tolkien, is taken to outer space. And in the
second book, He is sent to a neighboring planet
to stop the Adam and Eve of that world from falling
the way the Adam and Eve of this world did. He
has to contend with a Satan character. Yep. And
that's my favorite of the series, although the
third one is probably the most helpful. The third
one's called Out of the... Sorry, That Hideous
Strength. It's a reference to the Tower of Babel
in... Oh, what great piece of literature. Milton,
I think, referring to the Tower of Babylon. He
calls it that hideous strength. And this is where
these celestial forces come kind of to earth,
and he has to deal with them there. The third
one, I think, is the reason that when we get
to the New Jerusalem, we may find out that Louis
was actually in the office of the prophet. But
anyway, at the end of the second book, I don't
want to give too much away, but it was written
in like the 60s, so I don't feel too bad about
spoiling it for you. The fall is prevented. And
do not let that stop you from reading these books
because the way it happens is glorious and wonderful.
But the fall is prevented and the Adam of that
world looks to the skies and he says, someday
my descendants will go there. And if you think
about the project that was given to Adam, he
was supposed to make the world a garden, right?
He's placed in a garden, then he's told to subdue
the earth. And what I understand that to be is
that the garden is the place where man met with
God, so he's supposed to make the entire earth
a temple, fit for man and God to commune. I suspect
we would take that project to the stars. And
I think that those kind of I don't want to say
ambitions, but like mandates that were built
into us are retained even after the fall. And
I don't want to just talk too long here, but,
so one of Adam's creation mandates was to have
dominion over the annual kingdom. After the fall,
that is much more of a risky endeavor. Right.
It takes much more use of tools and strategy.
Yeah, they're disagreeable now. Even the ones
that we would consider to be pretty, uh, docile,
right? Like a cow. They'll still stomp you flat
if you don't pay attention to what you're doing,
right? Right. Or, you know, uh, Jason's bison
even just turning their head to look at something.
If you're in the wrong spot, you're going down,
you're going down. So we still maintain dominion
over the animal kingdom. It's just more difficult.
It doesn't work the way it was going to. It has
to be imposed with, I mean, with force, frankly.
We have to treat them pretty rough. I remember
hearing somebody say like, don't go into veterinary
science if you actually like animals, because
you spend all your days poking at them and hurting
them because you're trying to fix them, but they
don't know that. So they just think that you're
bothering them and you have to be fairly tough.
And that's a way that we exercise dominion. Gone
are the days when you could just say, lay still
while I fix this broken bone, because they are
now wild animals and are a breed apart from us.
Yeah, that's pretty applicable in that. I think
that that instinct is still within us. So a guy
like Elon Musk who wants to take us to the stars,
I think that he's picking up on that same kind
of creational mandate with dissonance after the
fall, that we have this ambition to do it even
though the fall Made it infinitely more difficult.
Do you think that the term I have heard this
bandied about, I think that this is one of the
reasons why the political right has resurged
a little bit with younger generations is the
return of manifest destiny. Do you think that
applies to our interest in extraterrestrial exploration?
And, um, I guess maybe I'm burying the lead.
I assume where you were going with this was that
the fascination with life from other worlds has
more to do with our desire to explore and expand
dominion. And the concept of interacting with
alien life is a way for us to kind of work that
out through fiction. Yes. And to tie it into
like the real world speculation about otherworldly
beings. If they show up and reach us first, that
fast forwards us beyond our current capabilities
to go visit their worlds. And so I just think
we have this instinct to explore and conquer
that I think ultimately the core is healthy.
It was part of what we were designed to do. And
aliens are part of that project, imagining what
it would look like. And then also if they show
up, we get to maybe take a ride with them back
where they're from. Well, I can't help but wonder
if there's not a, because science fiction is
full of various explorations of, of salvation.
Right. And that's great. If you read the kind
of the golden age guys, like pre world war two
guys, a lot of these guys envisioned that nuclear
fusion would result in a new golden age, right?
There'd be virtually limitless energy. Scarcity
would be gone. I mean, this is kind of the world
that Roddenberry envisioned with Star Trek. Like
we don't need money anymore because scarcity
is not, not a thing that exists because we have
essentially unlimited power. and the technology
to convert power into matter, which means everybody
gets enough to eat, everybody has a place to
live. This is all really great. And then post
-World War II, you can really see a change in
the writings of these sci -fi authors because
they get very jaded because we take nuclear fusion
and turn it into a mass destructive weapon instead.
And they kind of turned to psychology, which
is where guys like L. Ron Hubbard, who was a
science fiction writer before he founded Scientology,
they kind of... Work their way into this idea
of like well if we can just figure out the human
mind then we can be saved and So I can't help
but wonder if there's a connection between this
this idea of alien life Being a source of potential
salvation in the Gnostic sense. They have knowledge.
We don't have they can cure illnesses We can't
cure they can give us technology and knowledge
and things like that So people are looking to
the stars themselves and to the planets as as
targets for exploration, but they also think
the secrets of the good life may be hidden among
the stars and we have to go out and find them
aliens are kind of a personification of this
idea that they have what we don't have and then
of course the horror trope where that's reversed
and you have alien monsters that we have to somehow
defeat that's the scary thing ultimately i think
what alien horror things are are sort of uh almost
like a frankenstein situation where what if you
woke up and realized that your creator hated
you and was not out there. So the salvation that
you seek through the knowledge of the stars turns
out to be actually a monster that wants to destroy
you. And that's kind of where a lot of the real
deep core fear of like spooky aliens or alien
conquerors and stuff comes from. So that may
be why it keeps coming up. Terry, I couldn't
agree more about the connection you're making
between interest in aliens and religion. I'll
come back to you in a minute. Go ahead, Jason.
Yeah. I was just, I was going to inject, I think
the fear has been injected by the enemy. Because
with that fear comes an invalidation of God through
those aliens. When I totally believe that if
there are other beings that our God created all
of that. Is their God too. That's exactly right.
Whether they know it or not. So I have no fear
of that because God is not going to let us be
part of a scenario where He's still not in control.
you know, Jesus is still at the center of all
of this. I think there is room in the Scriptures
for all this. If we think about heaven, think
about all the different heavenly beings, think
about all the possibilities that are included
in the Bible, you know, you have you have Sarabens
and Cherubim. Towers, principalities, thrones.
Yeah. There's lots of things that we just don't
understand. Where did they come from? What are
they doing now? Yeah. So my God is so much bigger
than I can put in a box, and I do not want to
put Him in a box. That's where I stand. He's
the God of all the planets and all the galaxies
and all the dark space between galaxies. And
He knows where the edge of the universe is, and
He's the one who sets the limits. Yeah, and he's
outside of all that. He's outside of space. He's
outside of time. He's outside of matter. He created
all that. Our little minds just can't comprehend
how big God truly is and what he has control
over. So if he wants that to be part of this
video game we're living, then he can surely just
speak it into being. Sure. Well, and I think
you picked up on Probably what was my first interest
in UFO culture is that it's always been deeply
religious. Okay. And it's just what you laid
out that they're, well, I mean, you probably
kind of famously heard Richard Dawkins several
years ago say that he believes life on earth
was seeded by aliens. Okay. I can't remember
whose documentary that was in, but it was sort
of this. Anunnaki. Yeah, there you go. Um, there
was sort of this. tear away moment with the new
atheists, that they don't care for, they're not
opposed to a creator and a life giver. They just
don't want it to be the God who reveals himself
in scripture. So they'll take an alien God, or
an alien as God. And I think particularly in
a secular age, aliens became stand -ins for God
in the way you laid out. They can give us free,
clean energy. They can give us clarity on the
matters that divide human society. They can be
the cosmic big brothers that show up and shepherd
us in the right direction. And we find that more
palatable than submitting to our actual creator.
Sure. That utopia is much more attainable through
their help. Yeah. Right. It is just what you
said, they become a kind of savior. Yeah. I'd
say so it's an appeal to the divine in a certain
way. Let me give some information to people who,
if they're like, why in the world are these guys
talking about this? This is so crazy. You got
some statistics for us? I don't have statistics.
I have documentaries. Okay. Okay. And so there's
two I'm going to highlight for you that I think
have made it into the mainstream pretty extensively.
The first is called The Phenomenon from 2020.
Okay. And this is a documentary from James Fox,
and it has, it significantly features Harry Reid,
who was a former speaker. Right. And Harry Reid
was very interested in what does the government
have? You can think about Roswell. In his official
capacity, he was kind of asking these questions.
Yeah. And when he left office, he became very
willing to talk about it until he died. And so
the phenomenon starts documenting where military
has encountered what they call UAPs, and I didn't
fight a real phenomenon. People have probably
seen on major news networks by this time, the
footage from our military, um, where our pilots
are encountering what they call tic tacs that
move in a way that they can't match. Any kind
of life form that we know of would be crushed
by the G forces that these things are exhibiting.
And the claim is, at least the pot level, we
don't know what these things are. We don't know
where these things come from. We don't know anything
about this, but we've got lots of footage of
us encountering them. The phenomenon also pulls
up where these kind of craft or whatever they
are, are very interested in their nuclear sites.
Okay. They kind of cluster around our nuclear
sites, particularly when there's some kind of
activity happening. Well, the most recent one
is called the age of disclosure. It came in 2025.
And this one is even more connected to significant
figures in our military and our government. And
so some people won't know all the names in there,
but I think everyone's going to know Marco Rubio.
Sure. Rubio is heavily involved in this and talking
about things that, you know, I wouldn't have
anticipated hearing from someone like him when
I was in my teenage years. But you go beyond
that to congressional hearings where whistleblowers
testify that the U S government has collected
alien, what they call alien biologics, which
means bodies. It seems like a euphemism for,
you know, downed craft, find a corpse, carried
off to wherever. Yeah, and maybe not a corpse.
Maybe we have corpses and some that survived
for a time or something like that. The third
one that I would highlight for people, because
I think this is part of the profile, is older.
It's called Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind,
Contact Has Began. That's from 2020. And this
one is focused on a guy named Steven Greer. And
Steven Greer, I think, you may find some dissonance
or different perspectives among the men of Iscar
here. Stephen Greer is giving away part of what
I think the game is. Okay. He doesn't refer to
what we would call aliens as extraterrestrial
beings, but extra dimensional beings. Okay. And
he has this methodology that he's been training
groups around the world to make use of. There's
plenty of these in Tennessee. You can find them
on the Stephen Greer website. They get together
and try to enter into a meditative state. And
they picture the cosmos like, you know, something
you would, if someone said, picture what space
looks like. They start there and they're internally
asking to make contact with intelligent beings.
Then they zoom in to earth and they're continuing
to act, ask for contact. And they say, we invite
you. And then they zoom in and their mental map
to maybe the continent of the U S and then Tennessee
and then whatever beach or mountain top they're
sitting on. and they invite these intelligent
beings and kind of mentally guide them into literally
themselves as they're doing this. And this is
how they seek to establish communion with these
alien beings. And there's footage in these documentaries
that are pretty wild where someone will say,
I've made contact that, you know, that ball of
light over there is the one I'm in contact with,
could you give us a sign, move to the left, and
the ball moves to the left. Okay. And there's
even this one, there's a claim of a healing in
this, where a guy had made contact with something,
asked for help with blindness. This sounds like
a seance. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Except instead
of trying to communicate with the dead, they're
trying to communicate with... of being on another
dimensional level of some kind. Yes, exactly
right. And so with Greer, I think you see the
more sinister underbelly. Okay. Right. Some people
are just looking for a secular savior. Sure.
Greer seems to be looking for a deity of some
kind. Okay. And very willing to be possessed
by them. Yeah. And training people to do that.
Okay. All right. Well, let's, before we go any
further, I wouldn't ask, have you guys heard
of the Fermi paradox? I have, but I could not
articulate it to you. Okay, so the Fermi paradox
was articulated by a fellow named Enrico Fermi.
F -E -R -M -I. Right, and they basically, when
they had the technology to look into space pretty
far, this guy pretty much posed the question
of, if we think space is really infinite, which
is a big if, I don't think I would agree with
that, but let's assume for the purposes of this,
it's either infinite or so vastly large as to
be basically infinite. Where is everyone? And
so the question is, if you're coming at this
from an evolutionary standpoint, then the assumption
is we came here through a series of evolutionary
accidents. If the universe is large enough, odds
would say that somewhere else something like
this would have happened as well, at least in
a few places. And so the question he's asking
is where are all the other evolved civilizations?
If there are, you know, if this really is a question
of simply odds, No matter how small the odds,
the large enough sample would eventually yield
additional intelligent life. And so people have
been trying to answer this question, like where
are all the other intelligent civilizations?
And they've come up with a few theories, right?
One of them, they basically fall into some categories.
The first one is that we are just alone. There
is no other intelligent life or they're so rare
as to be practically non -existent, right? So
rare earth. hypothesis. This is the idea that
the odds are so low that even though the universe
is very vast, it's really just good luck on our
part that a planet was in a good enough spot
to develop life the way that this one has. Christian
apologists talk about the privileged earth. This
is a strong apologetic for an intelligent designer
because the odds of it are just so low and so
that kind of makes sense to their mind as well.
Uh, we're just the first. In other words, there
may be other intelligent life, but somebody's
got to be the most advanced. So maybe it's us
and nobody else has developed the technology
to answer signals or to send craft out or to
do anything that that would indicate. Um, there's
one, the other, the other category is the great
filter, which is, um, there's some, there's some
great filter that stops life from developing
and we somehow got through it. Perhaps there's
a filter behind us, which they would say is something
like abiogenesis. This is the idea that life
can come from nothing, which a lot of evolutionary
folks are basically having to contend with. Or
that there is a great filter yet ahead of us,
such as nuclear war or some kind of planetary
disaster, like a meteor strike or something,
and that eventually all advanced civilizations
fall prey to that great filter and cannot reach
the stars. All right, the third one is we don't
are they they are out there But we simply don't
have the right technology to detect them and
vice versa They can't they can either not receive
us or their communications can't be received
by us Something like that So we're using mostly
radio waves and they could be using some technology
that we have undiscovered and it makes perfect
sense to them But they don't get radio waves
for whatever reason. So there's there's that
problem And then there's probably the one of
one of my favorites is called the dark forest
theory which is the idea that the universe is
quiet because every other advanced life form
has figured out that there are monsters in space
and that they don't want to be, they call it
the dark forest theory because they remain quiet.
They don't want to draw attention to themselves.
And that's the one that makes for good movies,
right? Because if you are blasting radio waves
out into space saying, who's out there? Where
are you? It's the equivalent to going into a
dark forest full of bears and wolves and screaming
for help and like, hey, where is everyone? And
sooner or later something's going to find you
that you don't want to find you. That's the theory.
Sure. So this is kind of how secular folks who
are of the opinion that we haven't met intelligent
life from other planets are justifying the fact
that it's not there. Well, Lewis would add another
one in there. I mean, I think some of those are
pretty compatible with the Christian worldview.
Lewis's would be that we're under quarantine.
Yeah. So, because we're the place where the fall
took place, we would, you know, in theory, be
the one planet where we rebelled against our
creator and therefore the Lord has sort of walled
us off. Yeah. So that that kind of corruption
can spread. That's where that name comes from.
Yeah. That corruption can spread. Yeah. Pastorally,
I've got to think through this. There's a rumor
circulating on social media. Donald Trump is...
Said that he is going to have all the information
available compiled. Right. He's going to declassify
it. Yeah. And Pete Hegseth has confirmed this
as well, that they're going to, the war department
is going to turn over what they have on this
topic. Yeah. And so there's this rumor that by
this summer, we're going to have what they call
full disclosure. Okay. And if you, maybe some
of y 'all know the background of this, but since
the mid to 2020s, maybe earlier, might've been
2023. Tom DeLong, famously of the band Blink
-182, has been interfacing with the government
through his group called To The Stars Academy,
trying to help the government figure out how
to disclose what they know. Because there's allegedly
this trepidation on the part of the government
that if disclosure is made known, it's going
to disrupt human society, it's going to catastrophize
religion and all this other stuff. And so DeLong
has been kind of the point man of making this
happen. And it, again, just with Trump and Hegseth
talking about it, it seems like we're closer
than ever to getting a real look at. This is
a fascinating development to me because I grew
up listening to Blink -182. And I know what Tom
DeLong's persona was like in that band. And it's
just fascinating to think of him trying to take
something seriously. Yeah, exactly. He has another
band that he's the frontman on. I can't remember
what they call it, but... Well, there was Boxcar
Racer. Yeah. That was after Blink -182 that he
was in for a while. I don't know if they're still
around. Is he still doing something else? Yeah,
I think this one has a different name. I've never
listened to... I've listened to clips of songs.
Okay. And it's much more like we're about talking
about... Well, I mean, I distinctly remember
even back then, and this is like middle school
for me. So this is like five million years ago.
that they had songs for Blink Olenity 2 that
were about aliens and they were tongue -in -cheek,
but there was several of them. So it just makes
you think this was a preoccupation of his for
a while, probably. And he worked it out through
kind of writing silly songs about it, but clearly
it was something that was on his mind even back
then. Yeah, I think that has been a long -term
interest for him. You also got things like...
Skywalker Ranch, no, Skinwalker Ranch, excuse
me, Skinwalker Ranch. Skywalker Ranch is a different
thing. A different sort of deal there. But that
was a very popular television show that a lot
of people tuned into. So it does seem like we're
kind of building towards something, particularly
with major figures in the administration, like
Ruby O 'Hag, Seth Trump talking about it. Yeah,
it's not getting laughed out of the room anymore.
Whereas it used to just be like, okay, come on,
you know, do you have any real questions? Now
there's Well, we'll look in the files and see
what we got. Um, and we'll see what they come
up with. But yeah, the age of disclosure, uh,
documentary I mentioned, they actually talk about
that as being a government misinformation strategy.
Okay. You have these figures in the government
here saying in order to keep a lid on this stuff,
we did our best to make this ridiculous and goofy.
Yeah. So people would, there'd be a social stigma
to talking about it. Yeah. And you're right.
That stigma has evaporated in the last like three
years. It's just gone. Which, again, seems like,
whether or not we find out this summer, it seems
like we're building towards something. What about
Genesis 6 and the spiritual or heavenly beings
coming to earth? Yeah, so Jason, this may be
getting into one of those things. We've talked
about this, but I'm not even sure how close our
perspective aligns. I'll lay mine out. If president
Trump gets up and says we've made contact with
intelligent aliens, we're in regular contact
with them and we've actually entertained them
as guests. Okay. That's kind of probably the.
That'd be the most mind blowing. That'd be the
most mind blowing thing in the world. What do
you do pastorally? There's not to keep giving
background information, but this summer, Steven
Spielberg is releasing a doc, a documentary,
a movie called disclosure day. Okay. And it's
going to be a big tent pole movie. And if you
go watch the trailer. It appears that this woman
who's up giving a local news weather update is
overtaken by an alien and begins communicating
in an alien tone. Okay. And the trailer has all
this imagery of like people like holding crucifixes
and looking scared and the kind of the last quote
from the movie in that. trailer is a nun saying,
why would He make such a vast universe, yet save
it for us? That's like the go -away line in that
trailer. And I think there's where you're starting
to see, again, that interface between religion
and these kinds of claims. My mind also goes
like yours, Jason, to Genesis chapter 6, because
that's kind of the crux of that text. whatever
you would call them, they are extraterrestrial
in a sense. Sure. Extradimensional as well. But
in some way, I subscribe to the theory that that
is what we would commonly call angels interfacing
with human women. Okay. And this is referencing
what is usually commonly known as the Nephilim,
right? Yeah. And the Nephilim are their offspring,
which I believe Nephilim translates to fallen
ones. Is that close enough? And then the Nephilim
kind of get caught up into the Anikim that Joshua
was fighting in the conquest, the Rephaim. The
six -fingered, like, larger giants. I mean, depending
on your translation, Goliath, which is, I think,
a remnant of this, was something like nine feet
tall. And we're kind of into just general cryptid
territory here. So not just aliens, but... A
lot of our old legends, right? Dragons, giants.
Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh. Bigfoot even, like things
like that. Hercules. Potentially, yeah. I mean
the Bible refers to them as the men of renown.
That these were men of note. They were famous
for various reasons. And I think we can infer
that they were pretty generally bad. And the
flood was partially brought on to wipe them out.
Yeah. So there's a little bit of background.
What we mean when we bring up Genesis 6 is this
theory that we've got something coming from outside,
in that sense a true alien, interfacing with
human beings in such a way as to bring offspring
that are part human. Yeah, and the background
among evangelicals who believe the Bible is sort
of two lines of thought on this. There's angels
who cohabitate with human women. They produce
these Beings that are neither and they're monstrous
and that provokes the flood, right? Yeah That's
the theory I subscribe to the other dominant
theory is that that mixing is the godly line
of Sith, right? Mirroring the ungodly line of
Kane The reason I don't hold to that one is that
it just doesn't make sense to me why that kind
of commingling would produce men of renown Yeah,
especially compelling about that. Yeah And I
mean, we have godly people breeding with ungodly
people all the time, and none of them have become
Gilgamesh. So, I don't mean to throw shade on
anybody who holds that. I did it one time in
my life. No explanatory model there is perfect
without challenges. I just think the one that
accounts for the information the best is that
this is angels and humans. And so, at minimum,
Genesis 6 records a time where this sort of Extraterrestrial
extra -dimensional contact has been made. Okay
So now with this in mind, we're talking now about
the government thinking about disclosing Contact
or presence or perhaps fleeting presence or something
like that rumors video, whatever they may have
that there's something somewhere and You know
when they when they came the first time they
produced offspring when they come this time they
may or may not Seek that out the I'm again. I'm
we're thinking in theory right or they could
or they could yeah Yeah, and so I don't know
Or they maybe have been all along and it's not
yeah, or they may manipulate some to do it. Yeah.
Yeah, maybe so There are a lot of UFO abductees
who are women who claim that they have their
reproduction has been experimented with you know
But Jason you brought that up. I answered quite
a bit on that. Did you want to say more on Genesis
six? No, no. I mean, you hit all the high points
that I was thinking. There's a lot of different
theories out there. You've got the gap theory.
pre -Adamic race and things like that. Yeah.
So, listener, if you're just not familiar with
gap theory, you've probably met and ran into
somewhere that between Genesis 1 -1 and Genesis
1 -2, there's an indefinite period of time. Something
went wrong on the original creation. God reduces
it to the formless wasteland again and starts
the project again. So, it's like a flood narrative
before we get to the flood. I find it highly
speculative. Sure. Yeah. I'm not in agreement
with that. Sure. But it's just out there. Yeah.
Yeah. People need to, people need to know those
things. And that exists partly because the, uh,
the age of the earth, right? Like the theories
about the earth is, is, I don't know what they're
saying. They keep changing it because it's not
doing what they want it to do. But the theory
being that, that because the earth is millions
or billions of years old, whatever they're now
saying that that has to be explained somehow.
So there must have been an indeterminate gap,
a time gap to explain why the actual structure
of the planet is old. Yeah. And my easy answer
to that has always just been, God made it old.
Sure. I mean, when He made Adam, He didn't make
a fetus, right? He made an adult male. So He
made a mature planet. That's just easy for me.
Yeah. If you met Adam 10 minutes after he was
created, you would think he was 20 to 30 to 40.
So there's an appearance of age. Yeah. So that's
not really a hard one for me to solve. And I
don't really feel like I need the gap theory
to get there. No. Well, I think gap theory is
like, some of these other theories you've seen
floated by evangelicals, Old Earth, things like
that. I don't want to beat up on brothers who
hold the Old Earth or something like that, but
I see it as people trying to meet a burden to
reconcile the faith with scientific consensus,
and I feel no need to do that. Yeah, I'm just
not interested in that. I don't really care if
scientists think I'm stupid or not. That's fine.
They can do that. At one time they believed Flies
arose spontaneously from filth and what you said
about abiogenesis. That's still their theory.
That's the best thing they got to explain the
beginning. But even that, you still have to explain
where the planets came from. The big bang seems
to be often cited, but how did that happen? There's
got to be a beginner, a starter. And the philosophers
figured that out long before these guys showed
up and said there was no beginning of anything.
You either hold science. in the highest regard
are God. And that's really telling as to what
you believe. Yeah. And I'm suspicious that that
right there, that statement is going to play
a role in how people take whatever news does
or does not come out with disclosure. There'll
be a link between what you hold high and your
assessment of that information. Yeah. So then
to connect Or to go back to Genesis 6 just a
little bit, it raises the interesting question
of the book of Enoch. And listeners, if you're
not familiar, we have a raft of books that deal
with what we would call biblical topics, the
Old Testament world, the infancy of Jesus. And
some of these are known garbage, where someone
wanted to write in the name of an important figure
from the Bible to kind of harness their credibility
for their own ends. And so, you get these Gnostic
gospels that are obviously bunk. You also have
some though that the early church had a category
for that I wish we had more of a category as
evangelicals now. They called them helpful books.
They don't make it into the canon. They're not
the Word of God, but they're helpful for us to
read that there's a notable example from history
is the shepherd of Hermas. It was kind of a discipleship
guide. They would be like, man, every Christian
ought to read shepherd of Hermas. It's just not
going in the canon. I think people hear, oh,
that almost made it in, or that was considered
for canonicity and it was rejected, and therefore,
there must be something wicked about it, which
is probably true of a couple of them. But in
many cases, it's just like, well, it's a history
book. It's mostly accurate, but it's not Holy
Spirit authored. Therefore, it's not part of
the Bible. And then you have the book, like the
book of Enoch. The book of Enoch is a compilation
over the years, probably by the church in Ethiopia.
They tried to ban the book of Enoch, but the
church in Ethiopia kept all the different quote
versions and compiled it. So, the first book
of Enoch, I like reading that book. It's a fun
read. It does not supersede the Bible, just to
drive that point home. But the second and third
book of Enoch, that's a little bit harder to
read for me. I don't trust those. Okay. Yeah,
so, in that category of helpful books. So, you've
got The Shepherd of Hermes, like, good for discipleship
in the first couple centuries. Then you have
books that are in the Catholic canon, like the
book of… The apocryphal books. The apocryphal
books. Some of them are just in there because
it gives them their best hope of justifying things
like purgatory and some of those doctrines. But
there's two books called the Maccabees that are
inter -testamental history. What's going on with
the Jewish people between the Old and the New
Testament? I think everybody ought to read the
Maccabees. I think it's just important to understand
the world of the New Testament. Well, Enoch is
even kind of stands above those because first
Enoch is cited twice in the New Testament. So,
whatever you do with the book of Enoch, people
like Tertullian thought it was scripture. He
eventually submitted the will of the church and
said it's not, but it shows up twice in the New
Testament. Did Jesus even speak about it? There's
allusions, you know. And so, we know at least
two passages in what we would call First Enoch
actually happen, and we know that because they're
in scripture. Yeah. And it's weird stuff. It's
like Satan and Michael arguing over the body
of Moses, right? Like, that's pretty out there.
Yeah, that's definitely one of those passages
that you get to. It's in Jude, is that correct?
Yeah. And you're just like, whoa, that seems
big. I want more detail about that. But the Bible
passes on over it because it's not really the
point of what Jude is talking about. It's just
a way for him to reinforce this point. Yep. So
I think first Enoch, That's what I mean when
I refer to the book of Enoch. That's the one
that I think has some help. So, I'm very open
to what it records, and it sort of gives an expanded
narrative about Genesis 6. The idea there is
that there's a conspiracy of certain named angels,
gives them names, and they decide they're going
to rebel against Yahweh to take up with women.
And in effect, they barter with mankind We'll
give you certain gifts. You give us these women.
And if you think about the way the ancient world
functioned, there were dowries, there were exchanges.
It's a pretty common thing amongst normal people.
Yep. And so, like one of the angels gives to
mankind metalworking and teaches them the arts
of warfare. And the way I've explained it to
my family in our church, we went through this
when we went through Genesis not too long ago,
is that mankind I think was going to become masters
of their domain. but you don't give developmental
stages certain tools. Sure. Yeah, my six -year
-old does not play with the running chainsaw.
Yep. Right? Right. He might be able to handle
a pocket knife if I'm watching him, but there's
a limit, right? But one day he'll get a chainsaw.
Exactly. You're raising him to use table saws
and chainsaws and all that stuff, but it would
be monstrous to hand that to him when he's young.
Sure. Same deal with guns. I mean, we're Southerners.
My family's we just enjoy shooting guns. I'm
not handing it to my young kids and walking away.
So, the idea kind of from Enoch is that the sinister
move by these angels was to give us a whole bunch
of guns when developmentally as a people, we
were toddlers. And there was arts of seduction
that were taught in the uses of roots and spellcraft
and counter spells. Well, let me ask this question.
So this is a little bit of a deviation and I'm,
you're not, you're getting to your point here,
but like, are those arts lost or do we have them?
Like is that knowledge still with mankind? Yeah.
I think that those arts, I mean, so arts of war,
like metallurgy, blacksmithing, if Enoch's right
and I'm open, very open to him being right. We
didn't learn that by sort of evolutionary processes.
There's a glint in a rock and we figure out how
to extract it and eat it. We got a kind of a
fast forward tutorial on that. Arts of seduction,
I mean, look around us, man. We are in a pornified
culture. Sure. Right. So even goofy stuff that
I tell my kids, like famously on this podcast,
I milk cows. you know, who's the first person
who looked at a calf drinking from its mother
and thought, I'm going to try that. Yeah. You
know, now you could have been some desperate
place of starvation, going to do whatever, but
there's just certain things we do that it seems
really hard to figure out who, who came up with
this idea. We, I mean, there's certain plants
we eat that are poisonous unless cooked in a
very specific way. Um, maybe that happened by
what we would call trial and error or maybe we
were told. hey, you can do this with this thing,
it's going to give you these. Moil it and it's
fine, whatever. One of the theories that I've
found interesting is that humans before the flood
were significantly more technologically advanced
than they are usually assumed to be. The depictions
of Noah, he's always sort of looking like an
old Bible guy with his wooden boat, and they
used oxen to pull things around. Some folks have
speculated that the story of Atlantis is derived
from civilization lost in the flood that was
that story was you know telephone game down through
the ages by the sons of Noah I guess and That
you know they may have possessed advanced technology
doesn't even made a movie about this right like
there's an Atlantis movie which is one of their
last good ones I think and When they get down
there the people are primitive, but they actually
have the technology. They've just forgotten how
to use it And I have wondered if that's the case,
that they may not have had what we have, but
they may have had a lot more than we think they
did, or they may have had more. I mean, did they
have computers? What kinds of things did they
have and what were they given by this group?
Yeah, the thing that is sort of heaviest on the
scale for me on this is ancient Egypt. There
are certain rooms in the pyramids that contain
artifacts, like single stones, that cannot fit
in there. with any doorway in the room. There's
certain milling that we can't replicate today
in terms of precision and milling through rock.
And Doug Van Doren is a guy that I've read very
profically. He's a Reformed Baptist pastor out
in Colorado. He's got a great book on Baptist
covenant theology. He's also written a book on
sort of the The Wu stuff we're talking about
from Genesis 6 from a biblical angle and some
of the illustrations he has in there from Egypt
They look like the DNA helix Okay, and I don't
know what they would how would they figure that
out without? Microscope and a microscope is not
the right term. I'm sure but you know what? I
mean, yeah without diagnostic tools like we have
Even the concept right? Yeah, and you know he
goes into some more speculation that if they
were technologically advanced, some of the, the
same way that we think like Gilgamesh and Hercules
might connect to some of the Nephilim, he would
say things like the Chimeras, the Griffin. Right.
Some other mythological beasts of some kind.
The Minotaur. They may have been doing genetic
experimentation in a way that would blow us away.
And I know that sounds really out there, but
I'm very open to that. Well, the first book of
Enoch kind of alludes to that. It kind of alludes
to angels. Not just experimenting with humans,
but experimenting with other animals as well.
Yeah. It associates the offspring, these Nephilim
offspring with cannibalism that basically the
earth couldn't feed them enough. They were destroying
everything. Um, so I'm very open to that. Yeah.
And so to go all the way back to what we just
said, Hey, we've made contact with aliens. What
do I do pastorally with that? Sure. So you've
got a congregant who's concerned. They come to
you and they ask. You know, we don't know what
they're going to say, but they've maybe heard
that some disclosure is coming. How do you counsel
them leading into this? Yeah. So, I've put some
of this on social media because my frustrations
were some of the discourse and evangelicalism
about this, but my Bible tells me, as Jason alluded
to earlier, to anticipate an unseen world full
of powerful intelligences that are not human.
I have a category for that. They generally are
described as angels and demons. And the passages
we referenced earlier, they seem to have divisions
within them. Not just cherubim and seraphim,
but thrones. I think we've all got our mental
image of the guys in white robes and feathery
eagle wings with their halos. And that's not
a description we see of them in the scriptures.
In fact, the descriptions we see of them that
are written down, probably the most famous being
maybe the one from Ezekiel. It's horrifying.
It makes absolute sense why every time an angel
shows up, everybody flips out and is terrified.
Or they try to worship them and they have to
be cautioned against it. And so, you know, be
not afraid is what they always have to say. And
I just, you know, it seems like they have to
say more than that, but I don't know, maybe something
like that comes staring at you. You're going
to obey. Sure. And just not be afraid. Sure.
So we've got these, we've got these strange apparitions,
which we think of as angels, but there's no reason
to think that there's a homogeneity necessarily.
They may all look different. They may all behave
in different ways. Different vocation. We just
don't have enough detail to make any assumptions
in this regard. Right. And it's even more complex
than that because angels, as far as we understand
from Scripture, are spiritual beings. They're
not in the way that humans are intrinsically
wedded to a physical form. These angels sometimes
show up looking like a ball of eyes. Other times,
they show up to have a meal with Abraham and
they look like gods. Yeah. Well, when they went
into Sodom and Gomorrah, they were… different
enough looking that they caught people's attention.
But they were attracted. They weren't monsters,
right? They were very desirable. Right. Yeah.
The debased people of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted
to have relations with them. Right. Which again,
sounds like Genesis 6. So this is probably not
a floating ball of eyes, right? We can assume
that this is probably a human shaped. Either
in temporary status or just when they come to
this plane of existence, they take a form that
kind of looks like us and is like us enough that
they can sit down and eat bread. Right. Right.
So, the person comes to me and says, hey, what
in the world do we do with this? Well, one, I'm
going to say I believe scripture is sufficient
to explain everything that humans are going to
encounter. Two, I've already been told there's
this pretty vast array. of these beings. Now
they belong to one or two categories, but they
could present themselves in any range of diversity.
Well, let me ask you to speculate on something.
Well, and they can be physical would be the third
thing I would say is like, so at any point that
we're within that realm, extra terrestrial or
dimensional beings who have intelligence and
have physicality, there's no damage done to my
faith whatsoever. Sure. So you said that they
can be in one or two categories. Or do we think
that there's only two categories? That's my assumption
because I assume the Bible is sufficient and
it's pretty clear on this. Okay. But I do think
there may be a vast array of subdivisions. Okay.
They're layers of heaven. So in a sense that
they are either fallen or not fallen, there's
two kinds. And then amongst those, there's probably
a variety that we don't know. Right. Okay. And
so a guy like Thomas Aquinas who towered over
the medieval age, I mean, I'm not Roman Catholic.
I've learned a lot from Thomas, but you know,
he's not my guy, but he dominated medieval theology.
He has a vast catalog of like regional spirits
and even like what we would call fairies and
things that have a particular delegated authority
from the Lord to govern over say a forest, a
particular forest. So this may be some, Aquinas
may be... picking up on something that the ancient
world picked up on with the idea of dryads or
nymphs, right? Like there's even Tolkien refers
to this. It's all over Tolkien. It's all over
Lewis. I think they got it from Taras. One of
the things that I really love that Tolkien said
once, and I'm still wrestling with whether this
is a true thing or not, is that he said, we don't
see nymphs in the water and dryads in the trees
anymore because we don't eat the food that grows
on our own land. We drink the water that comes
out of our own ground and live in the same places.
You know, our bread comes from far away from
wheat -grown somewhere else. And if we were more
kind of in body and soul in our land, we would
have more of a connection and those kinds of
things would probably be visible more to us.
Man, I think about that exact same quote and
thought all the time. And, you know, we talked
about chronological snobbery on a previous episode.
It was pretty common among Scots -Irish people.
and their descendants that when a baby was born,
they would go out and tell it to the trees. We
look at that and say, those superstitious, silly...
What a waste of time. Right. They weren't stupid.
In Nordic countries now, they still build their
highways around where they think troll villages
are clustered. Because if they don't, the project
hits devastating catastrophe. They assume a bad
luck is attached to this? Yes. Okay. Because
of troll magic, I guess. Yeah, right. I don't
think they're stupid or superstitious for owning
some of those things. So yeah, I mean, all of
this isn't just within the realm of Christian
literature. It's in the realm of established
Christian theology and certainly just basic Bible
exegesis. Okay. I can pull back the cover of
this just a little bit. Most people think that
we are human beings with a spirit. I think we
are spirits with a body. And when you, when you
come at it from that direction, it gives you
a little bit more understanding of what we are
actually living in because God from a spiritual
realm that is outside of our time, outside of
our space, outside of our matter. He created
all this. How narcissistic are we, or is our
viewpoint that it centers around our realm, around
this physical realm, and that is truth, where
God exists outside of that, and He created what
we live in from outside of that. So surely He's
concerned with that. Well, I'm just saying that
we think things are impossible. Our minds just,
they're not wired to pick up on all the synapses
of a spiritual realm. Our brains are wired to
react. The brain itself is a physical organ,
right? And all our senses are designed to detect
physical phenomenon. But I say all this just
to add that point of reference that we are spiritual
beings at our core. When we die, we revert to
that. And a universe filled with other spiritual…
And we would say temporarily, because the body's
going to be erased. Right, but there is an existence
that can be disembodied. Well, and this is a
bit speculative too, but if you read Genesis,
Genesis makes you wonder what Adam had access
to that we don't. Sure. He's living in a garden,
talking snake shows up, he's walking with God.
I just think the pre -fall life must have been
so radically different. Yeah, I assume so. And
you get glimpses of it in the Old Testament.
So Jacob takes a nap in the desert and he sees
angels ascending and descending at a particular
spot in time, right? He had no awareness of it
before he laid down, but God chose to kind of
open his eyes and now he realizes he's in this
place of particular transport. Right. I can't
remember the reference off the top of my head,
but y 'all know what I'm talking about. There's
a time where a king's going into battle, he's
terrified of the forces he's fighting, the prophet
that's accompanying him asks God to let him see,
and he sees this tremendous force of angelic
beings all around, and his confidence is restored.
Those were there, he just didn't have the ability
to see it. But in God's providence, he may have
restored what Adam could have just known. He
might have, yeah. You know, Milton, and you referenced
Milton earlier in Paradise Lost, I think he,
with his poetic license, is picking up on some
of this. Because there's a lengthy section of
the book where there's exposition from an angel
to Adam about the fall. It's a warning that there's
a fallen angel that has been permitted to be
in this vicinity. He's probably going to come
bother you. And Adam inquires about what the
circumstances are that led to this. He wants
to know about the fall of the angels. And so
that's a flashback sequence where we get to see
the war in heaven between Satan and his fallen
ones and Christ and the upright angels. And Milton
depicts this as Adam welcoming a dinner guest,
basically. Like he has Eve go out and prepare
food for them to entertain him. And I just, I
can't help but think Milton may have been onto
something or at least tapping into a previous
understanding of the relationship between angels
and the unfallen man as not necessarily equals.
Cause it seems like Adam treats him not as a
superior, he doesn't kneel before him or anything
like that. After all, this was Adam's realm.
But he does receive him like a dignitary of a
kingdom. Like this is an important guest. This
isn't just some random guy off the street. And
I think Milton's maybe kind of on the same wavelength
there. Yeah, those medieval guys really knew
some stuff. They did. We treat them as quote
unquote dark ages. Bull. Those guys knew some
stuff. So we were talking about what pastoral
advice you'd give. And the first thing you came
to is just the understanding scripture is ready
for this. and that's where our answers are. So,
we need to be in Scripture, we need to know it,
and through knowing it, you're prepared for what
we would consider to be unprecedented, although
it may not be so unprecedented after all. Yeah.
2 Timothy 3, all Scriptures profitable, the way
our confession summarizes it, everything needful
for life and faith is found within the Scriptures.
All right. So, just assume the Bible is sufficient.
Okay. So this is where I would kind of do some
triage. If something shows up and tells someone,
I'm an intelligent being that evolved on a foreign
planet and traveled the cosmos to meet with you
and give you these great secrets, I'm going to
say that is a fallen angel who is in the campaign
of deception that I'm led by scripture to assume
they're in the business of doing all the time.
All right, so let's nail this down and just ask
the big question. If an alien shows up and is
viewable, visible, either to a mass of people
or to an individual, do you think that it necessarily
follows that that being is a fallen angel? So,
I'm going to give kind of a triage answer to
what I think some of the legitimate options are,
but my default setting is yes. Okay. And here's
why. Guilty until proven otherwise, right? Right.
Okay. Because Scripture says that creation suffered
in the fall of Adam. Okay. He was Lord of creation.
That's not just the earth. Right. So, creation
falls. We also have a category of beings, angels
who fail. Uh huh. God intervened on behalf of
humans in a way He did not with angels. Right.
So the second person of the Trinity takes up
our nature so he can suffer in our place and
redeem us and give us his righteousness. He took
on the nature of a human being to pay the cost
that human beings owed. And he did not do this
for angels. Jesus did not die on the cross in
the nature of an angel. Right. The way Hebrews
says this is he does not give help to the angels,
but he does to the sons of Abraham. So there's,
and this is in Enoch too. I mean, just pause
right there and think about how blessed we are.
Unimaginably. And totally unworthy, and yet God
extended grace to us. He could easily have done
the other thing. Yeah, and you just assume from
what we read, angels are more intrinsically glorious.
They have certain abilities that we think of
as drained. We're described as lower than the
angels initially, and yet we will judge them.
And we were favored. Yep. Absolutely. You're
exactly right. It should be a point of worship.
So, if that's the case, what is the relationship
of a hypothetical being that grew to evolutionary
life on some far place? I just, I have nothing
in the Bible that tells me that that is the case.
And you then have to have, so you have the question
of creation and fall, then you have the question
of redemption. So, Adam is the federal head of
humanity. Christ becomes the federal head of
the elect. What category does the alien belong
to? He's fallen under the curse of Adam. Is he
like an angel? He's just damned, right? If you've
rebelled and you're stuck there. There's no redeemer.
There's no hope. Now some, I will say they're,
you know, maybe it's Mormons, I could be wrong
here, but they've, I think they've kind of assessed
that this redemptive work has been done other
places. Yeah. That Christ has come in the nature
of other. And I don't know if they would say
it's extraterrestrials, but I believe if I understand
there, it's been a while since I looked at it.
So if you're a Mormon out there, I'm sorry if
I'm misconstruing. Well, I'm not really, but
I need to repent. But I think my understanding
is that they believe that if you live the holy
life as they have prescribed it, you ascend to
kind of a deity yourself on the other side of
the grave. You get your own planet and then.
I don't know if they think it's necessarily the
case that a redemptive work has to then take
place, almost like histories on repeat. But I
think there are some people that are probably
in various pseudo -Christian cults or they're
just Christians that are in error who would say,
no, he came as a redeemer to other intelligent
life also, that they may have had the same thing
happen. Well, again, I would just go back to
the sufficiency issue there. Scripture is very
clear. He did it for humans. He did not do it
for angels. That seems to be comprehensive. There
isn't another category of being, right? That
we have, for sure. And so I was talking to somebody
on X about this. This idea of like some intelligent
life form that exists that can communicate has
to have some relation to Adam. Sure. And I was
casting a bound for what kind of parallels we
would have. And I went to like Blue Whales. because
they're supposed to be radically intelligent.
They can communicate at a high level. We don't
speak their language, but… Pretty sophisticated
vocabulary for an animal. Yeah. I mean, anything
like this would rise only to the level of a blue
whale. Yeah. And I just… There's not a category
in Scripture for them as in -souled beings that
have some relationship to Yahweh. And if we take
the Bible at its word that it's sufficient, for
Christians in all ways, then if aliens are simply
left out of it, but they do exist and they make
contact with us, we now are in a place where
scripture is insufficient. So, it's logically
excluded from our faith. Yeah, and it could be
that there's some heretofore unknown portion
of scripture that unlocks and we see, but that's,
I mean, we're into this project thousands of
years. Yeah, I don't think that's going to happen.
And that idea that, oh, all of a sudden this
new experience has unlocked some new understanding
of Scripture, that's always the seedbed of heresy.
Right. Where you get crazy stuff. So, like, my
foot's fully on the brake with all of that. Okay.
Can I put on my tin -full hat for a second? Mine's
been on. We're pretty far into that. Okay. There's
a little late. But if, let's say, aliens appear
to many people, there's also a great possibility
it is a great deception. Lying signs and wonders.
is a biblical category. Yes. So, we always need
to have that in our minds as well because there's
technology out there and I happen to know about
some of it that is going to… Jason probably has
like bought in on a partnership that has some
of it. It's going to bury it. No, but there's
going to be technology that is going to affect
many, many people, that is going to mislead many,
many people, that's going to convince many, many
people. that there are things afoot that is just
a flat out lie. Yeah. I mean, we're there already,
right? Yes. You know, and it's only going to
get better. And I say better in the sense of
its believability. Yeah. You guys are nailing
it. Like this is already human experience, right?
And we're becoming more sophisticated. So Terry,
when I say in triage, so I'm going to go to my
next tier and I'm just going to own wildly much
more speculative. Okay. Another explanatory model
that I would be working through in that moment
of contact is, we've already talked about it,
if ancient societies knew how to do genetic manipulation,
I can't remember how many years ago it was, and
they announced that Dolly the sheep had been
cloned. It was like the 90s. Yeah. Because that's
when Jurassic Park came out, and it's kind of
on the back of that early cloning success fad,
and the Crichton's exploring the concept of what
could this mean. It ends up selling a great book
and making a cool movie about dinosaurs killing
everyone. And then some other movies after that.
Yeah, well I don't know what you're talking about.
They're already growing human organs inside of
monkeys now. Well and several years ago they
announced they had grown human ears on the back
of mice. And they're 3D printing organs. I mean
we're talking about like that's something that
even cloning is kind of, it's like almost old
tech now. But anyway, you were saying? So, I'm
very open to the idea that sinister forces have
an interest and an ability. Again, going back
to even bartering technology of humanity in Enoch
and Genesis 6, they have a very sophisticated
technological ability. They're physical enough
to interact with the physical universe when they
want to. So, in effect, I would be very open
to the idea that these apparent alien beings
are drones. These are bodies to give a spiritual
being physicality. Like an automaton kind of,
maybe avatar. Maybe that, yeah, that may be a
better term. So potentially a fleshly being.
So not like a robot necessarily, but functioning
in that way. Yeah. And so again, to the point
about scripture being sufficient, it seems that
the fallen version of these beings we're talking
about the Bible identifies have a profound interest
in taking possession of a physical host. Okay.
And you have the Gadarene demoniac and you have
the pigs and you have Satan entering Judas on
the trail. Again, with the cultural references,
demon possession has always been, or at least,
well, I guess it started with the exorcist probably
is what kind of got it back into pop culture
as a poorer trope, like the possession of a foreign
being of a person. And it's just all over stuff.
And every culture has this. Hindus think about
possession. Right. Every culture thinks about
possession. So would they be able to genetically
engineer some kind of host that whatever it,
you know, we get the sense that possession is
sort of an extremely spiritual degraded state.
Right. What does it take to get there? How long
does the candidate have to be groomed and whatnot?
Maybe there's like, you know, we can fast track
that. We'll build the shell, you hop in the shell.
There's nothing in it. So it's unoccupied and
therefore can be unsold via a fallen thing. Yeah.
So that would be the next category I'd be open
to. Okay. The very least, the one that it would
take something that I cannot foresee for me to
embrace is the idea that this is a evolved life
form from a vast distance away that is. invaded
our space and overturns all the categories of
scripture. I just cannot foresee anything that
would make me go, oh yeah, that's probably what's
going on. Yeah, I can't either. So this is what
we talked about, be ready by knowing your Bible,
being prepared to have a category in your mind
for there being spiritual warfare, spiritual
things you don't necessarily understand in the
traditional sense that we physically understand
our world. These things these kinds of things
are in existence angels demons things of that
sort now we're asking pastorally You're giving
them kind of your theories on what we're looking
at here Yeah run that's gonna fit into the first
one where it's like this is most likely a fallen
angel or the activities of fallen angels Yeah,
I mean, how would you know if if an angel shows
up saying it's an alien, right? You know, it's
lying. Sure. Therefore, you know, it's fallen,
right? Jason did that does that get to your tinfoil
hat stuff there? Was there more you're gonna
add on that? No, no, no, that's that's my tinfoil
sombrero Yeah, so leading into this, you know
where the rumors are going around that this this
summer We may have some kind of disclosure of
something What are your plans and you know, I'm
not nailing you down to any specifics Like I'm
not gonna come ask you why you didn't do it this
way or that way But what are your plans on helping
people? I mean, this podcast aside, get prepared
for that there may be some weird stuff that the
government wants to show us, or not. I mean,
it could be a nothing burger, but what if they
do come out with something that seems convincing,
and how do we get people ready for that? It may
shake them a little bit. Well, this podcast is
one of those. That's part of the background on
why I wanted to talk about with you. You know,
our church people listen to this, we put it on
the interwebs. Jared Moore, who's been on before,
just got done kind of taking a Sunday night and
walking his church through some of this. Jason
said he could... And that was by popular demand,
if I remember. I think his church had asked him
a little bit about it, seen this kind of things
in the news, and were like, how do we prepare
to think about this? Because there's no telling
what they're going to say. How do we prepare?
Yep. So that tells me Christians are curious.
And I've always sort of taken the idea that the
leader, be that a father, husband, churchman,
you want to be the first voice at the table.
You want everybody else reacting to you. And
so, I want to be an early voice at the table
on this stuff. Jared's actually in Oklahoma preaching
a series of meetings for a church and a school
down there, but when he comes back, he wants
me to be on his podcast to talk about it. What
we would probably do at our church is I'll have
a town hall meeting and we'll get together and
compare notes. I hope by then most of the people
who are engaged with new media have heard this,
this literal episode. But we've been through
Genesis fairly recently and talked about quite
a bit of this. We talk regularly about the sufficiency
of Scripture. We would probably just get together
in a room and say, I'm going to give you the
broad strokes, then y 'all do Q &A, and we'll
work through this as a church body. That's good
pastoral advice, I think. So, you know, we reference
blurry creatures, we reference taunt and cosmos.
Do you think those are helpful resources for
people? I mean, we're not paid by those guys
or anything. They're helpful for mature Christians.
Okay. Definitely. I would caution if you are
very skeptical of Christian theology. Maybe not
the best place to start. It wouldn't be the best
place to start, in my opinion. Okay. But who
knows? I mean, God's used glory creatures to
bring a lot of people to Christ also. So, I would
parse that probably with Haunted Cosmos better
than Blurry. I think the guys who are the hosts
there are better discipled. I like the Blurry
Creatures guys, but they kind of backended into
this that didn't come through like a church tradition.
And they regularly say things like, well, the
church is not talking about this or the church
is just saying about this. And I'm like, well,
That's not true. Y 'all love Michael Heiser.
You're like, nobody listen to Heiser. He worked
for Logos. I mean, every pastor in America aspires
to, if they can mortgage their house, to have
the full Logos suite. You know what I mean? I
just think they have too low a view of the church.
And by the church, I mean like the people who
show up on a Sunday and they, every Sunday, and
they try to read their Bible and live in light
of what they read there. Now, what kind of, I
don't know if you know this, but what faith tradition
will they claim? They're evangelical. Okay. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. That's tricky because evangelicals
don't, I mean, it's not like the papacy where
you've got one guy who hands down his opinion
and that's what the church is talking about,
quote unquote. So. Well, they talk about spiritual
things and, but they talk about it from a very
outside perspective, outside of the church perspective.
Okay. So they entertain folks that don't necessarily
line up with the church. Yeah. And that's the
only. reason that I think it's a little bit dangerous
sometimes, if you're not grounded. If you're
a grounded Christian, I mean, you can see past
all that stuff, and it actually helps you understand
others' viewpoints by listening to what they're
saying. Yeah, and I appreciate the way you're
framing that, Jason. I like, you know, I don't
have a relationship with them. I don't either.
But I just sort of enjoy, like, they seem like
good dudes, and they seem like the kind of guys
I'm rooting for. But The nature of their show
is the guest comes on, makes a claim, and just
by the nature of their show, they can't be like,
that's ridiculous. What are you talking about?
Get out of here. So you'll get this spectrum
of ideas, some that are very consistent with
the Christian worldview, some that are just off
the reservation. And I can illustrate that with
their recent stuff. They brought on N .T. Wright.
who wrote a really great book on the resurrection
of the Son of God. Then he introduced what is
called The New Perspectives on Paul, and it was
a catastrophe. It's a complete failure to understand
the ABCs of the gospel. But they brought him
on, and he's there talking. Well, I don't know
what he has to say about the woo stuff. I actually
didn't listen to that one because NT Wright doesn't
interest me. But that's the kind of guy who comes
on and makes claims, and I'm like, he just doesn't
have the credibility. They're big enough now
that they're getting celebrities. Dusty Slay
apparently was on recently. That's great. That's
great for what they want to be doing and probably
their business model, although I don't think
they're grifters or trying to get rich. Sure.
I mean, they want to make a living. They want
to make a living. I don't hate that. Right. And
they ought to be able to make a living from their
work. But it's that nature of the show to treat
every guest with equal credibility that I think
sometimes hooks them into ideas that They just
shouldn't be. They're less credible and they
should probably be treated less credibly. Yeah.
Okay. And it's led them into stuff where on their
social media, they're like, no, it's not just
angels and demons. That's dumb. Yeah. And I'm
like, I don't actually think the voice of the
church for 2000 years is dumb. Yeah. There's
a guy named Timothy Alberino that is pretty speculative
that they're big fans of. He's been on there
a lot. They're good friends. He gets into some
of this stuff and I'm like, Tim, man, just hit
the brakes, dude. Yeah. So, I wish they had a
little bit more of a breaking mechanism. I do
think they're good dudes. I think they love the
Lord. I think the nature of their show leaves
them open to certain things that Haunted Cosmos,
coming from a confessional tradition and whatnot,
they're just not subject to the same liabilities.
Yeah. And Haunted Cosmos, I don't want to just
leave them in a totally pure white light either.
They tell stories that are Some are just really
strange. And you have to look at it through a
grounded Christian perspective, the same with
them. But I agree with you. I think they are
more solid with the foundation that they're approaching
it with. Sure. I mean, I listen to both. I do
too. I regularly talk with our church members
who listen to both, and I think this is well
within reasonable Christian freedom. Okay. Let
me ask another question. I actually got two more
questions. I don't know how much time we have.
We'll see. We'll see how long the first one takes.
The first question is, what do you think it is
it's fueling the sudden increase in interest
among Christians for things like what they talk
about on Haunted Cosmos, cryptids, missing persons,
demons and angels, ghosts, this sort of supernatural
elements. And like, why is this now suddenly
not taboo? Why are we why why do we are we apparently
leaving behind like enlightenment empiricism
and kind of embracing? This immaterial world
more. I mean, I think you just set up part of
it, but Jason will run at that first I've got
some thoughts um the way I would describe that
is I think evil is Got a much larger presence
as far as witchcraft and as far as Satanic worship
the spirituality side of the darkness has really
flourished and I think you're seeing a version
of that that we haven't seen before. And I think
every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
So I think you're seeing an awareness of the
spiritual things within Christianity. And you're
just seeing all this come to light that has just
been ignored for so long because it can't be
ignored anymore. Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree
with that. I think you already set it up. The
Enlightenment project is breaking down. Okay.
And for a couple different reasons. So there's
kind of a pie chart answer to this. Real quick,
let's talk about that Enlightenment thing just
briefly. So the Enlightenment shows up 1700s,
late 1600s, post Renaissance. Mankind began to
struggle with what we would call epistemology,
which is just a branch of philosophy that's concerned
with the question of how do you know what you
know? How do you know what is true? And the question,
they were no longer satisfied with, well, the
scripture says it's true. So, we need to be able
to run diagnostic tests that can be measured.
And so, this is sort of the advent of science
as deity. Materialism. Yeah. And we saw, probably
in recent times, the most clear example of this
was COVID. Where everybody just appealed straight
to well that the science says the science says
they said it like it was a religious mantra yeah,
and And and maybe that's part of the answer to
this question is like we've seen science fail
and we've seen Allegedly, you know this impeccable
science which is supposed to have all the answers
and lead us into the golden age Yeah, and it
has not done that and in many cases it has led
us into bad things and failures and science keeps
changing which is its nature because we're uncovering
truth So that's what we mean by enlightenment
empiricism, but go ahead. Yeah, so that dominated
the West for too long. I think There's quite
a bit going on there, but the first actual I
think basically came up with people being like,
you can't live this way. It takes away any kind
of meaning. It takes away the ability to say
my relationship as a parent to my child is beyond
mere genetic reproduction. People can't live
under that. And so there was this thirst for
something else. We then live in an increasingly
globalized world. There's lots of competing religious
claims. like what you're talking about, the rise
of the new age, these things are around. And
so, people are casting about for an alternative.
They're connecting with something. You know,
I think that false gods of the other religions
are demons. And so, I believe there's a substance
to the thing, right? Like dumb idols are dumb
idols. The idol itself cannot see, but that does
not mean there's not an intelligence behind that
idol that's using it to manipulate people. So
they're taking ayahuasca and they're meeting
intelligences in those realms. They're practicing
black magic and seeing good returns on their
efforts to get wealthy or whatever. And eventually
the dehumanization of materialism and the ready
availability of the supernatural to interact
with those who want to. I think basically broke
those things down. Okay. So, and as a result
of this, because we're seeing it in the world,
Christians are now asking these questions. Yeah,
there's the evangelical slice of the pie chart
there. Right. Evangelicals tend to talk about
the supernatural strictly on what the Bible explicitly
says. Or if you're charismatic in ways that are
in those categories, but kind of emotionally
and experientially go beyond them. It is true
that we have better communication with our global
neighbors than ever before. I grew up reading
books about UFOs and Bigfoot and all that stuff.
Now you're meeting people, quote unquote, meeting
them online who are claiming those experiences.
As those things heap up, if you have some sort
of interest in an exploratory or adventurer.
Even just a mild curiosity. You've never had
more resources to say, oh, I bet there's something
there, there. All right, that kind of actually
leads into the next question, which is how would
you counsel someone very interested in this topic
on what kind of protections should they have
to keep them from going too far down this rabbit
hole? Or is that the, can you overdo this? How
much should Christians be trying to learn about
this realm? Where are the limits? Where are the
dangers in the sort of investigative side of
this? That's a great question. You want to make
a run at that, Joseph? I think we're cautioned
in the Bible. Paul cautions us, I think, about
all this stuff. And I think this world is so
complex, and there are so many things that we
are not going to completely understand this side
of heaven. I think the stars are a map to most
of this stuff that we just can't understand.
I mean, Lewis is very open to that idea. I just
don't think that we have the mental capacity
nor the history to understand it. But I think
it's all laid out before us. There are entities
working against us and for us that this side
of heaven we will never see. I have just, I have
resolved in my heart that God has got this, God
is bigger than me, and I'm just going to seek
after Jesus. And that has to be my main goal.
That has to be my true north. And I always have
to take Jesus into consideration with anything
that I'm thinking of. If this theory clouds Jesus
or demeans Jesus or takes Jesus out of the center
of the story, I don't pay it any attention. Okay.
That's the way I've dealt with all this. You
have to be centered on the gospel, and you have
to be truly thinking of what God has done for
us and blessed us with. To me, it just goes so
much deeper than our minds can even realize.
And I'm okay with the fact that I'm dumb. You
don't need to know everything, right? Literally.
I mean, I have to be okay with the fact that
I'm dumb. You're not dumb. No one can comprehend
all things except for the Lord, right? And everybody's
going to be necessarily specialized in some way.
So I think I'm going to say some of the same
stuff Jason did from a little bit different angle,
but it's the similar in spirit and form principles
we already talked about. Jesus Christ is Lord
of everything. Right. So that's the first thing
you keep in mind. The Lord of the Bigfoots and
the Mothman and the aliens. And Satan. They will
bow. Satan is Jesus' Satan. He's Lord of all
of it. Two, he's a perfect communicator. And
so his word is perfect to us. It's sufficient.
It's understandable. You know, all the things
we've affirmed here. So those are the two tent
poles on any field of inquiry. Where does the
kind of woo stuff enter in? Well, it enters in
first because we're supposed to be students of
the Bible. Okay. And you read the Bible according
to the intention of the author who wrote it.
The Bible has, in a sense, two authors, the Spirit
of God and the human author. They both intended
to communicate something. Your job as a student
is to say, what were they trying to communicate?
Right. And that also becomes your kind of guiding
light on studying every topic that comes up.
The Bible mostly wants to talk about Jesus, His
glory, the salvation He alone offers, His control
over all things. It gives most of its time to
that. From time to time, it raises things like
the Nephilim or Satan and the archangel arguing
over the body of Moses. You want to give that
as much attention as it's proportionately tended
to in the text. ask your questions in choir,
figure it out, but it fits within the framework
of the bold themes. And then there's also the
encouragement from Paul who says, of Satan, we're
not unaware of his schemes. And so I think that's
one of the diagnostic questions is you're trying
to make application of the text. You can't become
fascinated by that stuff. It'd be pointless to
study the loser. But in the same imagery of Scripture,
there is a lion walking around who wants to devour.
Maybe let's figure out what his patterns are.
So we don't want to be unaware of his schemes.
We have to be fascinated by the glory of Christ.
And within that fascination, it's okay to spend
a little time going, what's the bad guy up to?
Yeah, sure. Well, I mean, to use the lion illusion,
there's a really great book and there's a movie
made out of it. called The Ghost in the Darkness.
The book is called The Maneaters of Sabo. And
they're dealing with man -eating lions that are
invading the camp in Africa. And so they are
building defenses to keep them out. And it goes
unsaid because it's kind of just a subtext, but
the way that they choose to build their defenses
and how they try to protect themselves from the
lions assumes knowledge of lion physiology, lion
eating habits, lion movement patterns, like in
other words, they know the enemy well enough
to make a countermeasure. And, you know, that's
just true in lots of stuff. You know, if you
want to keep ants out of your house, you have
to know a little bit about ants. What's an ant
after? Yeah, if you want to win a war, you have
to know a little bit about the other side and
what they're doing. And so, you know, we ultimately
aren't the ones who will defeat Satan. That's
up to Jesus to do, but If you take the term church
militant literally, you have to know what the
enemy is up to in some sense. Or you're blindsided
by things like the government coming out and
saying, well, we have an alien in a safe somewhere.
We play checkers with them every Thursday or
whatever they're going to say. If you don't have
a category in your mind for the fact that the
enemy is a deceiver and may try to do something
like this, that might catch you off guard. It
might shake your faith. I think what we're trying
to articulate is that it shouldn't. Absolutely.
It ought to go like, oh yeah, maybe I didn't
see that happening this Tuesday, but I've got
categories for that. Yeah. And most important
of all, the foundation of it is that Jesus Christ
is still Lord. And whatever they've gotten a
safe that they play checkers with, He's Lord
of that too. That's going to be a great diagnostic
for whatever they could potentially trot at anyway.
Yeah. Okay, okay, okay. You're some advanced
life form. What do you have to say about Jesus?
Sure. Right? Yeah, I mean, there's jokes online
about that, right? Like when the aliens show
up, you make them say, Christ is Lord, and if
they don't, then you call in the space marines
and eradicate them, you know? The space force.
Yeah, that's why Trump made the space force.
They've been planning this all along. If they
come in with kind of the hippie -dippie, redefine
Jesus as the spirit of love. Yeah. or they're,
hey, you've got to get past this primitive religion,
particularly Christianity. Cool man, not even
a thean facade. One of the ones you sometimes
hear is that Jesus is an alien, and that's why
he was able to do miracles and things like that,
which is not, you know, this is not something
that's going to confuse most Christians. That's
kind of out there, but I mean, you know, if they
show up physically here and then start saying
stuff, then that will lend credibility to even
the most cockamamie theories. So Christians just
have to know what a cockamamie theory is and
not be tricked into buying into it. Yeah, I think
the paradigm, I think we all just have the confidence
to approach it as if, again, we kind of know
how to engage life because of the Bible. If some
guy you've never seen, maybe he's strange looking,
shows up at your door and wants to tell you about
who Jesus is. And it turns out that he's some
great teacher who was misunderstood by the church
and this guy's got the real secret to Jesus or
whatever. You're going to be like, okay, I don't
really have time for this. Could you just shuffle
along? Right? Well, if it's some huge odd alien
saying the same thing, it's pretty much the same
paradigm. Yeah. You can get off my property.
Cool. Not worth my time. Not a friend. Just bounce,
man. You know, call the space marines. Yes, definitely.
Definitely call the space marines. Put them on
speed dial. I want us standing over an alien
drone body, investigating it as like the space
force backups, you know, and you get to put your
hand on the body and say, it's afraid. Oh yeah,
like starship troopers. Yeah. We wrote Bibles
and we're praying and you touch the creature
and go, it's terrified. Yeah. All right. That's
about it, man. Yeah, that's all my questions.
We can put our bearskin gloves on and beat the
trash out of the drone body of a blind spirit.
They've stood up to every other test I've put
them under. I have not tried fist fighting aliens
yet. Give us a chance. Yeah, maybe this summer.
Bear knuckle gloves. I don't know if they have
any specific alien combat gloves. I don't know
if they have six finger gloves or not. Maybe
if we beat one of these drone things down, we
can have alien skin gloves. Oh, there we go.
Size extra, extra, extra, extra, extra large
with six fingers. But the ones that I've got
have been really great and they're holding up
to everything. I've been moving bricks and rocks
around with them and they have not worn hardly
at all. So yeah, that's been my experience with
them same deal a little bit different not bricks
and rocks, but barbed wire and Buckets and things
farm stuff farm stuff. Yeah real use you know
stains here and there man, but I can't tell any
thin this in the material There's my go -to gloves.
They're just absolutely my go -to gloves. Yeah
same here so just use the code name it's a car
at buy bear knuckle comm and You'll get 15 %
off your next purchase You should do it. You
should. Excellent. All right, guys. Appreciate
y 'all's time. Thank you, guys. So I truly hope
that this information will give you a little
better foothold on some things that are more
than likely coming down the path in the not -so
-distant future. I've linked the videos that
Jeff mentions in the comments, as well as a few
podcasts you're welcome to check out. So keep
striving to be men of Issachar, and we'll catch
you next time.