WEBVTT

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Welcome back to the Men of Issachar podcast.

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We have a doozy for you today. We're going to

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be talking about some hard things, some weird

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things, and some things that might make you a

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little bit uncomfortable. As Christians, we may

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think that we're immune to these subjects. I

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think we need to have as good or better understanding

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of these subjects so that you can reach those

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outside of a relationship with Jesus and help

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them to see truth. We're going to be talking

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about aliens or the possibility of aliens. Our

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prayer is that our eyes are open to truth like

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Elisha's assistant that Jeff tells a story about

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later. We talk about other tools available to

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you to learn more about these things that we're

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talking about and hopefully give some perspective

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on these subjects that strengthen your walk with

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the one true God. So sit back, relax, not too

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much though, and listen as Jeff Wright, Terry

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Gant, and myself, Jason Gull, strive to be men

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of Issachar. Hey, welcome back to the Men of

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Issachar. I'm here with my friends Jason Gaw

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and Terry Gant. And we're talking about something

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I suggested to the group. It may seem out there

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to some people, but I think there's a much more

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than zero chance the church has to think about

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this question in coming days. And so we're going

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to talk about what should Christians think if

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the U .S. government this year announces that

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they have made contact with extraterrestrial

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life and, or have collected biological samples

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of extraterrestrial life. And I'm not talking

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about bacteria and, you know, single set organisms

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or something like that, but intelligent extraterrestrial

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life. And I hope that doesn't strike everybody

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as too woo. Um, there's a lot of interest in

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what you might call preternatural or supernatural

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phenomenon in the Christian community. There's

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podcasts like Blurry Creatures, Haunted Cosmos.

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They do big numbers. So lots of Christians are

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talking about this, but I'm actually thinking

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about this as sort of a discipleship question.

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Let me start off with a general question on human

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psychology. Why is it that humans are so fascinated

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with the concept of intelligent life from another

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world? because this has been you know we have

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all kinds of science fiction books movies you

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know some pretty good stories even that involve

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this some classics i might dare say so what is

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it about extraterrestrial life that is a compelling

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trope that keeps us kind of coming back to this

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question and i'm just talking about separate

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from whether or not we actually or if some information

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is revealed but what is it that keeps us interested

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in this Okay. Well, so Terry, I would answer

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that a couple of different ways. I'm going to

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actually go to science fiction to answer a little

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bit of that. Okay. C .S. Lewis, who you've probably

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heard cited on this podcast pretty often wrote

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a series of sci -fi novels that are less famous

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than his Narnia series. Which is a crime. Yeah,

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absolutely. Well, I don't know, Narnia is pretty

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good, so it's tough to say they're better, but

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if you like Narnia, you really need to also read

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this. It's on par. And of the same spirit, it's

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like Narnia for grownups. And I say that with

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no derision towards Narnia for children. Well,

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if I'm not mistaken, I believe that the subtitle

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to the third in the trilogy is A Modern Fairytale

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for Grownups. Is that right? Yeah, that sounds

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right. And I assume that was C .S. Lewis's inclusion

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and not an editor's... choice, because it seems

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pretty consistent across all the different bindings

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and versions. So he has that in mind. Yeah. So

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guys, uh, the book series there, sometimes you

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hear him called the space trilogy. He wouldn't

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have liked that because space implies emptiness.

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And he saw the cosmos as full. So, you can call

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them the Ransom Trilogy. It's Out of the Silent

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Planet. That's book one, Paralandra, book two.

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Book three is That Hideous Strength. And just

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super quick summary, Out of the Silent Planet,

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the protagonist who's built on Tolkien, the protagonist

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is supposed to be very similar to his friend

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Tolkien, is taken to outer space. And in the

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second book, He is sent to a neighboring planet

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to stop the Adam and Eve of that world from falling

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the way the Adam and Eve of this world did. He

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has to contend with a Satan character. Yep. And

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that's my favorite of the series, although the

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third one is probably the most helpful. The third

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one's called Out of the... Sorry, That Hideous

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Strength. It's a reference to the Tower of Babel

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in... Oh, what great piece of literature. Milton,

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I think, referring to the Tower of Babylon. He

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calls it that hideous strength. And this is where

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these celestial forces come kind of to earth,

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and he has to deal with them there. The third

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one, I think, is the reason that when we get

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to the New Jerusalem, we may find out that Louis

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was actually in the office of the prophet. But

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anyway, at the end of the second book, I don't

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want to give too much away, but it was written

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in like the 60s, so I don't feel too bad about

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spoiling it for you. The fall is prevented. And

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do not let that stop you from reading these books

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because the way it happens is glorious and wonderful.

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But the fall is prevented and the Adam of that

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world looks to the skies and he says, someday

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my descendants will go there. And if you think

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about the project that was given to Adam, he

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was supposed to make the world a garden, right?

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He's placed in a garden, then he's told to subdue

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the earth. And what I understand that to be is

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that the garden is the place where man met with

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God, so he's supposed to make the entire earth

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a temple, fit for man and God to commune. I suspect

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we would take that project to the stars. And

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I think that those kind of I don't want to say

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ambitions, but like mandates that were built

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into us are retained even after the fall. And

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I don't want to just talk too long here, but,

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so one of Adam's creation mandates was to have

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dominion over the annual kingdom. After the fall,

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that is much more of a risky endeavor. Right.

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It takes much more use of tools and strategy.

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Yeah, they're disagreeable now. Even the ones

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that we would consider to be pretty, uh, docile,

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right? Like a cow. They'll still stomp you flat

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if you don't pay attention to what you're doing,

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right? Right. Or, you know, uh, Jason's bison

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even just turning their head to look at something.

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If you're in the wrong spot, you're going down,

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you're going down. So we still maintain dominion

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over the animal kingdom. It's just more difficult.

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It doesn't work the way it was going to. It has

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to be imposed with, I mean, with force, frankly.

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We have to treat them pretty rough. I remember

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hearing somebody say like, don't go into veterinary

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science if you actually like animals, because

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you spend all your days poking at them and hurting

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them because you're trying to fix them, but they

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don't know that. So they just think that you're

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bothering them and you have to be fairly tough.

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And that's a way that we exercise dominion. Gone

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are the days when you could just say, lay still

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while I fix this broken bone, because they are

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now wild animals and are a breed apart from us.

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Yeah, that's pretty applicable in that. I think

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that that instinct is still within us. So a guy

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like Elon Musk who wants to take us to the stars,

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I think that he's picking up on that same kind

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of creational mandate with dissonance after the

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fall, that we have this ambition to do it even

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though the fall Made it infinitely more difficult.

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Do you think that the term I have heard this

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bandied about, I think that this is one of the

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reasons why the political right has resurged

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a little bit with younger generations is the

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return of manifest destiny. Do you think that

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applies to our interest in extraterrestrial exploration?

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And, um, I guess maybe I'm burying the lead.

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I assume where you were going with this was that

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the fascination with life from other worlds has

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more to do with our desire to explore and expand

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dominion. And the concept of interacting with

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alien life is a way for us to kind of work that

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out through fiction. Yes. And to tie it into

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like the real world speculation about otherworldly

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beings. If they show up and reach us first, that

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fast forwards us beyond our current capabilities

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to go visit their worlds. And so I just think

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we have this instinct to explore and conquer

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that I think ultimately the core is healthy.

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It was part of what we were designed to do. And

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aliens are part of that project, imagining what

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it would look like. And then also if they show

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up, we get to maybe take a ride with them back

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where they're from. Well, I can't help but wonder

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if there's not a, because science fiction is

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full of various explorations of, of salvation.

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Right. And that's great. If you read the kind

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of the golden age guys, like pre world war two

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guys, a lot of these guys envisioned that nuclear

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fusion would result in a new golden age, right?

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There'd be virtually limitless energy. Scarcity

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would be gone. I mean, this is kind of the world

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that Roddenberry envisioned with Star Trek. Like

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we don't need money anymore because scarcity

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is not, not a thing that exists because we have

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essentially unlimited power. and the technology

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to convert power into matter, which means everybody

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gets enough to eat, everybody has a place to

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live. This is all really great. And then post

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-World War II, you can really see a change in

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the writings of these sci -fi authors because

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they get very jaded because we take nuclear fusion

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and turn it into a mass destructive weapon instead.

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And they kind of turned to psychology, which

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is where guys like L. Ron Hubbard, who was a

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science fiction writer before he founded Scientology,

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they kind of... Work their way into this idea

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of like well if we can just figure out the human

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mind then we can be saved and So I can't help

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but wonder if there's a connection between this

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this idea of alien life Being a source of potential

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salvation in the Gnostic sense. They have knowledge.

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We don't have they can cure illnesses We can't

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cure they can give us technology and knowledge

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and things like that So people are looking to

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the stars themselves and to the planets as as

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targets for exploration, but they also think

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the secrets of the good life may be hidden among

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the stars and we have to go out and find them

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aliens are kind of a personification of this

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idea that they have what we don't have and then

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of course the horror trope where that's reversed

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and you have alien monsters that we have to somehow

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defeat that's the scary thing ultimately i think

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what alien horror things are are sort of uh almost

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like a frankenstein situation where what if you

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woke up and realized that your creator hated

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you and was not out there. So the salvation that

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you seek through the knowledge of the stars turns

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out to be actually a monster that wants to destroy

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you. And that's kind of where a lot of the real

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deep core fear of like spooky aliens or alien

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conquerors and stuff comes from. So that may

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be why it keeps coming up. Terry, I couldn't

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agree more about the connection you're making

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between interest in aliens and religion. I'll

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come back to you in a minute. Go ahead, Jason.

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Yeah. I was just, I was going to inject, I think

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the fear has been injected by the enemy. Because

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with that fear comes an invalidation of God through

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those aliens. When I totally believe that if

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there are other beings that our God created all

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of that. Is their God too. That's exactly right.

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Whether they know it or not. So I have no fear

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of that because God is not going to let us be

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part of a scenario where He's still not in control.

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you know, Jesus is still at the center of all

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of this. I think there is room in the Scriptures

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for all this. If we think about heaven, think

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about all the different heavenly beings, think

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about all the possibilities that are included

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in the Bible, you know, you have you have Sarabens

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and Cherubim. Towers, principalities, thrones.

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Yeah. There's lots of things that we just don't

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understand. Where did they come from? What are

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they doing now? Yeah. So my God is so much bigger

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than I can put in a box, and I do not want to

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put Him in a box. That's where I stand. He's

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the God of all the planets and all the galaxies

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and all the dark space between galaxies. And

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He knows where the edge of the universe is, and

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He's the one who sets the limits. Yeah, and he's

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outside of all that. He's outside of space. He's

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outside of time. He's outside of matter. He created

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all that. Our little minds just can't comprehend

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how big God truly is and what he has control

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over. So if he wants that to be part of this

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video game we're living, then he can surely just

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speak it into being. Sure. Well, and I think

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you picked up on Probably what was my first interest

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in UFO culture is that it's always been deeply

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religious. Okay. And it's just what you laid

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out that they're, well, I mean, you probably

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kind of famously heard Richard Dawkins several

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years ago say that he believes life on earth

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was seeded by aliens. Okay. I can't remember

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whose documentary that was in, but it was sort

00:13:47.620 --> 00:13:51.820
of this. Anunnaki. Yeah, there you go. Um, there

00:13:51.820 --> 00:13:54.419
was sort of this. tear away moment with the new

00:13:54.419 --> 00:13:59.220
atheists, that they don't care for, they're not

00:13:59.220 --> 00:14:03.059
opposed to a creator and a life giver. They just

00:14:03.059 --> 00:14:04.740
don't want it to be the God who reveals himself

00:14:04.740 --> 00:14:07.679
in scripture. So they'll take an alien God, or

00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:11.019
an alien as God. And I think particularly in

00:14:11.019 --> 00:14:14.799
a secular age, aliens became stand -ins for God

00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:17.879
in the way you laid out. They can give us free,

00:14:17.980 --> 00:14:21.720
clean energy. They can give us clarity on the

00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:24.740
matters that divide human society. They can be

00:14:24.740 --> 00:14:27.480
the cosmic big brothers that show up and shepherd

00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:30.620
us in the right direction. And we find that more

00:14:30.620 --> 00:14:33.379
palatable than submitting to our actual creator.

00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:37.899
Sure. That utopia is much more attainable through

00:14:37.899 --> 00:14:41.419
their help. Yeah. Right. It is just what you

00:14:41.419 --> 00:14:44.299
said, they become a kind of savior. Yeah. I'd

00:14:44.299 --> 00:14:47.259
say so it's an appeal to the divine in a certain

00:14:47.259 --> 00:14:51.950
way. Let me give some information to people who,

00:14:52.049 --> 00:14:53.769
if they're like, why in the world are these guys

00:14:53.769 --> 00:14:56.029
talking about this? This is so crazy. You got

00:14:56.029 --> 00:14:58.529
some statistics for us? I don't have statistics.

00:14:58.529 --> 00:15:01.049
I have documentaries. Okay. Okay. And so there's

00:15:01.049 --> 00:15:04.009
two I'm going to highlight for you that I think

00:15:04.009 --> 00:15:07.029
have made it into the mainstream pretty extensively.

00:15:07.110 --> 00:15:09.549
The first is called The Phenomenon from 2020.

00:15:09.690 --> 00:15:12.789
Okay. And this is a documentary from James Fox,

00:15:13.549 --> 00:15:17.370
and it has, it significantly features Harry Reid,

00:15:17.470 --> 00:15:21.210
who was a former speaker. Right. And Harry Reid

00:15:21.210 --> 00:15:23.289
was very interested in what does the government

00:15:23.289 --> 00:15:26.230
have? You can think about Roswell. In his official

00:15:26.230 --> 00:15:28.049
capacity, he was kind of asking these questions.

00:15:28.330 --> 00:15:30.190
Yeah. And when he left office, he became very

00:15:30.190 --> 00:15:33.090
willing to talk about it until he died. And so

00:15:33.090 --> 00:15:35.830
the phenomenon starts documenting where military

00:15:35.830 --> 00:15:38.330
has encountered what they call UAPs, and I didn't

00:15:38.330 --> 00:15:40.389
fight a real phenomenon. People have probably

00:15:40.389 --> 00:15:42.889
seen on major news networks by this time, the

00:15:42.889 --> 00:15:46.350
footage from our military, um, where our pilots

00:15:46.350 --> 00:15:49.129
are encountering what they call tic tacs that

00:15:49.129 --> 00:15:53.840
move in a way that they can't match. Any kind

00:15:53.840 --> 00:15:55.659
of life form that we know of would be crushed

00:15:55.659 --> 00:15:58.740
by the G forces that these things are exhibiting.

00:15:59.059 --> 00:16:01.539
And the claim is, at least the pot level, we

00:16:01.539 --> 00:16:03.059
don't know what these things are. We don't know

00:16:03.059 --> 00:16:05.639
where these things come from. We don't know anything

00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:07.519
about this, but we've got lots of footage of

00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:10.500
us encountering them. The phenomenon also pulls

00:16:10.500 --> 00:16:15.039
up where these kind of craft or whatever they

00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:17.200
are, are very interested in their nuclear sites.

00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:19.559
Okay. They kind of cluster around our nuclear

00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:21.720
sites, particularly when there's some kind of

00:16:21.720 --> 00:16:24.220
activity happening. Well, the most recent one

00:16:24.220 --> 00:16:27.200
is called the age of disclosure. It came in 2025.

00:16:27.860 --> 00:16:33.019
And this one is even more connected to significant

00:16:33.019 --> 00:16:36.679
figures in our military and our government. And

00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:39.679
so some people won't know all the names in there,

00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:42.659
but I think everyone's going to know Marco Rubio.

00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:47.120
Sure. Rubio is heavily involved in this and talking

00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:49.039
about things that, you know, I wouldn't have

00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:51.299
anticipated hearing from someone like him when

00:16:51.299 --> 00:16:54.539
I was in my teenage years. But you go beyond

00:16:54.539 --> 00:16:57.500
that to congressional hearings where whistleblowers

00:16:57.500 --> 00:16:59.679
testify that the U S government has collected

00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:01.840
alien, what they call alien biologics, which

00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:06.099
means bodies. It seems like a euphemism for,

00:17:06.099 --> 00:17:09.539
you know, downed craft, find a corpse, carried

00:17:09.539 --> 00:17:12.390
off to wherever. Yeah, and maybe not a corpse.

00:17:12.529 --> 00:17:14.630
Maybe we have corpses and some that survived

00:17:14.630 --> 00:17:17.410
for a time or something like that. The third

00:17:17.410 --> 00:17:20.849
one that I would highlight for people, because

00:17:20.849 --> 00:17:24.009
I think this is part of the profile, is older.

00:17:24.170 --> 00:17:26.369
It's called Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind,

00:17:26.569 --> 00:17:30.849
Contact Has Began. That's from 2020. And this

00:17:30.849 --> 00:17:34.230
one is focused on a guy named Steven Greer. And

00:17:34.230 --> 00:17:39.579
Steven Greer, I think, you may find some dissonance

00:17:39.579 --> 00:17:41.380
or different perspectives among the men of Iscar

00:17:41.380 --> 00:17:44.460
here. Stephen Greer is giving away part of what

00:17:44.460 --> 00:17:48.259
I think the game is. Okay. He doesn't refer to

00:17:48.259 --> 00:17:50.539
what we would call aliens as extraterrestrial

00:17:50.539 --> 00:17:53.779
beings, but extra dimensional beings. Okay. And

00:17:53.779 --> 00:17:55.799
he has this methodology that he's been training

00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:58.880
groups around the world to make use of. There's

00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:00.400
plenty of these in Tennessee. You can find them

00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:04.460
on the Stephen Greer website. They get together

00:18:04.460 --> 00:18:08.390
and try to enter into a meditative state. And

00:18:08.390 --> 00:18:10.450
they picture the cosmos like, you know, something

00:18:10.450 --> 00:18:12.130
you would, if someone said, picture what space

00:18:12.130 --> 00:18:15.930
looks like. They start there and they're internally

00:18:15.930 --> 00:18:18.789
asking to make contact with intelligent beings.

00:18:19.470 --> 00:18:22.390
Then they zoom in to earth and they're continuing

00:18:22.390 --> 00:18:26.650
to act, ask for contact. And they say, we invite

00:18:26.650 --> 00:18:29.170
you. And then they zoom in and their mental map

00:18:29.170 --> 00:18:32.609
to maybe the continent of the U S and then Tennessee

00:18:32.609 --> 00:18:35.670
and then whatever beach or mountain top they're

00:18:35.670 --> 00:18:38.920
sitting on. and they invite these intelligent

00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:42.460
beings and kind of mentally guide them into literally

00:18:42.460 --> 00:18:47.960
themselves as they're doing this. And this is

00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:52.099
how they seek to establish communion with these

00:18:52.099 --> 00:18:56.619
alien beings. And there's footage in these documentaries

00:18:56.619 --> 00:18:59.740
that are pretty wild where someone will say,

00:18:59.740 --> 00:19:03.079
I've made contact that, you know, that ball of

00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:06.599
light over there is the one I'm in contact with,

00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:10.099
could you give us a sign, move to the left, and

00:19:10.099 --> 00:19:12.519
the ball moves to the left. Okay. And there's

00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:15.200
even this one, there's a claim of a healing in

00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:17.740
this, where a guy had made contact with something,

00:19:17.900 --> 00:19:20.960
asked for help with blindness. This sounds like

00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:25.059
a seance. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Except instead

00:19:25.059 --> 00:19:26.799
of trying to communicate with the dead, they're

00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:29.359
trying to communicate with... of being on another

00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:31.319
dimensional level of some kind. Yes, exactly

00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:34.299
right. And so with Greer, I think you see the

00:19:34.299 --> 00:19:37.599
more sinister underbelly. Okay. Right. Some people

00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:39.859
are just looking for a secular savior. Sure.

00:19:40.500 --> 00:19:43.500
Greer seems to be looking for a deity of some

00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:45.400
kind. Okay. And very willing to be possessed

00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:47.460
by them. Yeah. And training people to do that.

00:19:47.940 --> 00:19:51.279
Okay. All right. Well, let's, before we go any

00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:53.940
further, I wouldn't ask, have you guys heard

00:19:53.940 --> 00:19:57.720
of the Fermi paradox? I have, but I could not

00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:00.579
articulate it to you. Okay, so the Fermi paradox

00:20:00.579 --> 00:20:04.359
was articulated by a fellow named Enrico Fermi.

00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:08.640
F -E -R -M -I. Right, and they basically, when

00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:11.099
they had the technology to look into space pretty

00:20:11.099 --> 00:20:13.559
far, this guy pretty much posed the question

00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:15.539
of, if we think space is really infinite, which

00:20:15.539 --> 00:20:17.440
is a big if, I don't think I would agree with

00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:19.700
that, but let's assume for the purposes of this,

00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:22.400
it's either infinite or so vastly large as to

00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:26.750
be basically infinite. Where is everyone? And

00:20:26.750 --> 00:20:29.450
so the question is, if you're coming at this

00:20:29.450 --> 00:20:31.470
from an evolutionary standpoint, then the assumption

00:20:31.470 --> 00:20:33.589
is we came here through a series of evolutionary

00:20:33.589 --> 00:20:36.890
accidents. If the universe is large enough, odds

00:20:36.890 --> 00:20:39.349
would say that somewhere else something like

00:20:39.349 --> 00:20:41.650
this would have happened as well, at least in

00:20:41.650 --> 00:20:45.009
a few places. And so the question he's asking

00:20:45.009 --> 00:20:47.230
is where are all the other evolved civilizations?

00:20:47.509 --> 00:20:50.190
If there are, you know, if this really is a question

00:20:50.190 --> 00:20:53.200
of simply odds, No matter how small the odds,

00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:55.799
the large enough sample would eventually yield

00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:59.519
additional intelligent life. And so people have

00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:01.059
been trying to answer this question, like where

00:21:01.059 --> 00:21:02.759
are all the other intelligent civilizations?

00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:06.299
And they've come up with a few theories, right?

00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:08.640
One of them, they basically fall into some categories.

00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:10.920
The first one is that we are just alone. There

00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:13.700
is no other intelligent life or they're so rare

00:21:13.700 --> 00:21:18.400
as to be practically non -existent, right? So

00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:21.019
rare earth. hypothesis. This is the idea that

00:21:21.019 --> 00:21:23.099
the odds are so low that even though the universe

00:21:23.099 --> 00:21:26.319
is very vast, it's really just good luck on our

00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:28.960
part that a planet was in a good enough spot

00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:31.420
to develop life the way that this one has. Christian

00:21:31.420 --> 00:21:34.839
apologists talk about the privileged earth. This

00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:38.799
is a strong apologetic for an intelligent designer

00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:42.539
because the odds of it are just so low and so

00:21:42.539 --> 00:21:45.480
that kind of makes sense to their mind as well.

00:21:45.819 --> 00:21:48.160
Uh, we're just the first. In other words, there

00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:50.279
may be other intelligent life, but somebody's

00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:52.779
got to be the most advanced. So maybe it's us

00:21:52.779 --> 00:21:55.680
and nobody else has developed the technology

00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:58.039
to answer signals or to send craft out or to

00:21:58.039 --> 00:22:00.880
do anything that that would indicate. Um, there's

00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:03.000
one, the other, the other category is the great

00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:07.200
filter, which is, um, there's some, there's some

00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:09.859
great filter that stops life from developing

00:22:09.859 --> 00:22:12.990
and we somehow got through it. Perhaps there's

00:22:12.990 --> 00:22:14.930
a filter behind us, which they would say is something

00:22:14.930 --> 00:22:17.430
like abiogenesis. This is the idea that life

00:22:17.430 --> 00:22:20.390
can come from nothing, which a lot of evolutionary

00:22:20.390 --> 00:22:23.910
folks are basically having to contend with. Or

00:22:23.910 --> 00:22:26.210
that there is a great filter yet ahead of us,

00:22:26.430 --> 00:22:28.690
such as nuclear war or some kind of planetary

00:22:28.690 --> 00:22:30.730
disaster, like a meteor strike or something,

00:22:31.230 --> 00:22:34.190
and that eventually all advanced civilizations

00:22:34.190 --> 00:22:37.849
fall prey to that great filter and cannot reach

00:22:37.849 --> 00:22:41.130
the stars. All right, the third one is we don't

00:22:41.130 --> 00:22:43.210
are they they are out there But we simply don't

00:22:43.210 --> 00:22:45.650
have the right technology to detect them and

00:22:45.650 --> 00:22:48.089
vice versa They can't they can either not receive

00:22:48.089 --> 00:22:50.609
us or their communications can't be received

00:22:50.609 --> 00:22:53.450
by us Something like that So we're using mostly

00:22:53.450 --> 00:22:55.990
radio waves and they could be using some technology

00:22:55.990 --> 00:22:58.549
that we have undiscovered and it makes perfect

00:22:58.549 --> 00:23:00.289
sense to them But they don't get radio waves

00:23:00.289 --> 00:23:02.109
for whatever reason. So there's there's that

00:23:02.109 --> 00:23:05.089
problem And then there's probably the one of

00:23:05.089 --> 00:23:07.190
one of my favorites is called the dark forest

00:23:07.190 --> 00:23:09.799
theory which is the idea that the universe is

00:23:09.799 --> 00:23:12.539
quiet because every other advanced life form

00:23:12.539 --> 00:23:15.099
has figured out that there are monsters in space

00:23:15.099 --> 00:23:18.319
and that they don't want to be, they call it

00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:20.599
the dark forest theory because they remain quiet.

00:23:20.660 --> 00:23:22.259
They don't want to draw attention to themselves.

00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:25.400
And that's the one that makes for good movies,

00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:28.339
right? Because if you are blasting radio waves

00:23:28.339 --> 00:23:30.019
out into space saying, who's out there? Where

00:23:30.019 --> 00:23:31.960
are you? It's the equivalent to going into a

00:23:31.960 --> 00:23:33.920
dark forest full of bears and wolves and screaming

00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:36.480
for help and like, hey, where is everyone? And

00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:38.059
sooner or later something's going to find you

00:23:38.059 --> 00:23:39.819
that you don't want to find you. That's the theory.

00:23:40.180 --> 00:23:43.859
Sure. So this is kind of how secular folks who

00:23:43.859 --> 00:23:47.000
are of the opinion that we haven't met intelligent

00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:50.420
life from other planets are justifying the fact

00:23:50.420 --> 00:23:53.039
that it's not there. Well, Lewis would add another

00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:54.980
one in there. I mean, I think some of those are

00:23:54.980 --> 00:23:56.599
pretty compatible with the Christian worldview.

00:23:57.740 --> 00:23:59.640
Lewis's would be that we're under quarantine.

00:23:59.869 --> 00:24:03.710
Yeah. So, because we're the place where the fall

00:24:03.710 --> 00:24:06.569
took place, we would, you know, in theory, be

00:24:06.569 --> 00:24:09.289
the one planet where we rebelled against our

00:24:09.289 --> 00:24:13.049
creator and therefore the Lord has sort of walled

00:24:13.049 --> 00:24:15.390
us off. Yeah. So that that kind of corruption

00:24:15.390 --> 00:24:17.109
can spread. That's where that name comes from.

00:24:17.410 --> 00:24:21.069
Yeah. That corruption can spread. Yeah. Pastorally,

00:24:21.130 --> 00:24:22.990
I've got to think through this. There's a rumor

00:24:22.990 --> 00:24:25.690
circulating on social media. Donald Trump is...

00:24:25.740 --> 00:24:29.380
Said that he is going to have all the information

00:24:29.380 --> 00:24:32.900
available compiled. Right. He's going to declassify

00:24:32.900 --> 00:24:35.119
it. Yeah. And Pete Hegseth has confirmed this

00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:37.160
as well, that they're going to, the war department

00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:38.980
is going to turn over what they have on this

00:24:38.980 --> 00:24:42.259
topic. Yeah. And so there's this rumor that by

00:24:42.259 --> 00:24:44.940
this summer, we're going to have what they call

00:24:44.940 --> 00:24:47.680
full disclosure. Okay. And if you, maybe some

00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:50.460
of y 'all know the background of this, but since

00:24:50.460 --> 00:24:53.759
the mid to 2020s, maybe earlier, might've been

00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:58.319
2023. Tom DeLong, famously of the band Blink

00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:01.460
-182, has been interfacing with the government

00:25:01.460 --> 00:25:04.480
through his group called To The Stars Academy,

00:25:04.519 --> 00:25:07.279
trying to help the government figure out how

00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:11.839
to disclose what they know. Because there's allegedly

00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:13.819
this trepidation on the part of the government

00:25:13.819 --> 00:25:17.819
that if disclosure is made known, it's going

00:25:17.819 --> 00:25:21.019
to disrupt human society, it's going to catastrophize

00:25:21.019 --> 00:25:24.269
religion and all this other stuff. And so DeLong

00:25:24.269 --> 00:25:26.849
has been kind of the point man of making this

00:25:26.849 --> 00:25:31.490
happen. And it, again, just with Trump and Hegseth

00:25:31.490 --> 00:25:33.150
talking about it, it seems like we're closer

00:25:33.150 --> 00:25:35.990
than ever to getting a real look at. This is

00:25:35.990 --> 00:25:37.730
a fascinating development to me because I grew

00:25:37.730 --> 00:25:41.730
up listening to Blink -182. And I know what Tom

00:25:41.730 --> 00:25:44.710
DeLong's persona was like in that band. And it's

00:25:44.710 --> 00:25:47.190
just fascinating to think of him trying to take

00:25:47.190 --> 00:25:50.230
something seriously. Yeah, exactly. He has another

00:25:50.230 --> 00:25:52.789
band that he's the frontman on. I can't remember

00:25:52.789 --> 00:25:54.890
what they call it, but... Well, there was Boxcar

00:25:54.890 --> 00:25:58.329
Racer. Yeah. That was after Blink -182 that he

00:25:58.329 --> 00:26:00.069
was in for a while. I don't know if they're still

00:26:00.069 --> 00:26:01.950
around. Is he still doing something else? Yeah,

00:26:02.009 --> 00:26:03.710
I think this one has a different name. I've never

00:26:03.710 --> 00:26:06.109
listened to... I've listened to clips of songs.

00:26:06.109 --> 00:26:09.289
Okay. And it's much more like we're about talking

00:26:09.289 --> 00:26:11.910
about... Well, I mean, I distinctly remember

00:26:11.910 --> 00:26:14.069
even back then, and this is like middle school

00:26:14.069 --> 00:26:16.269
for me. So this is like five million years ago.

00:26:17.190 --> 00:26:19.829
that they had songs for Blink Olenity 2 that

00:26:19.829 --> 00:26:22.430
were about aliens and they were tongue -in -cheek,

00:26:22.609 --> 00:26:24.869
but there was several of them. So it just makes

00:26:24.869 --> 00:26:26.809
you think this was a preoccupation of his for

00:26:26.809 --> 00:26:30.029
a while, probably. And he worked it out through

00:26:30.029 --> 00:26:33.109
kind of writing silly songs about it, but clearly

00:26:33.109 --> 00:26:35.230
it was something that was on his mind even back

00:26:35.230 --> 00:26:38.190
then. Yeah, I think that has been a long -term

00:26:38.190 --> 00:26:41.630
interest for him. You also got things like...

00:26:43.149 --> 00:26:45.410
Skywalker Ranch, no, Skinwalker Ranch, excuse

00:26:45.410 --> 00:26:48.529
me, Skinwalker Ranch. Skywalker Ranch is a different

00:26:48.529 --> 00:26:51.230
thing. A different sort of deal there. But that

00:26:51.230 --> 00:26:54.549
was a very popular television show that a lot

00:26:54.549 --> 00:26:57.049
of people tuned into. So it does seem like we're

00:26:57.049 --> 00:26:58.549
kind of building towards something, particularly

00:26:58.549 --> 00:27:00.630
with major figures in the administration, like

00:27:00.630 --> 00:27:02.390
Ruby O 'Hag, Seth Trump talking about it. Yeah,

00:27:02.410 --> 00:27:04.069
it's not getting laughed out of the room anymore.

00:27:05.109 --> 00:27:07.390
Whereas it used to just be like, okay, come on,

00:27:07.529 --> 00:27:09.930
you know, do you have any real questions? Now

00:27:09.930 --> 00:27:12.859
there's Well, we'll look in the files and see

00:27:12.859 --> 00:27:14.960
what we got. Um, and we'll see what they come

00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:19.079
up with. But yeah, the age of disclosure, uh,

00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:20.700
documentary I mentioned, they actually talk about

00:27:20.700 --> 00:27:23.140
that as being a government misinformation strategy.

00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:24.759
Okay. You have these figures in the government

00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:26.839
here saying in order to keep a lid on this stuff,

00:27:27.700 --> 00:27:29.799
we did our best to make this ridiculous and goofy.

00:27:29.799 --> 00:27:31.880
Yeah. So people would, there'd be a social stigma

00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:33.819
to talking about it. Yeah. And you're right.

00:27:33.980 --> 00:27:36.819
That stigma has evaporated in the last like three

00:27:36.819 --> 00:27:41.059
years. It's just gone. Which, again, seems like,

00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:43.500
whether or not we find out this summer, it seems

00:27:43.500 --> 00:27:46.359
like we're building towards something. What about

00:27:46.359 --> 00:27:51.279
Genesis 6 and the spiritual or heavenly beings

00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:54.900
coming to earth? Yeah, so Jason, this may be

00:27:54.900 --> 00:27:57.279
getting into one of those things. We've talked

00:27:57.279 --> 00:27:58.859
about this, but I'm not even sure how close our

00:27:58.859 --> 00:28:02.890
perspective aligns. I'll lay mine out. If president

00:28:02.890 --> 00:28:04.470
Trump gets up and says we've made contact with

00:28:04.470 --> 00:28:06.730
intelligent aliens, we're in regular contact

00:28:06.730 --> 00:28:08.970
with them and we've actually entertained them

00:28:08.970 --> 00:28:11.250
as guests. Okay. That's kind of probably the.

00:28:11.609 --> 00:28:13.190
That'd be the most mind blowing. That'd be the

00:28:13.190 --> 00:28:15.150
most mind blowing thing in the world. What do

00:28:15.150 --> 00:28:17.710
you do pastorally? There's not to keep giving

00:28:17.710 --> 00:28:20.269
background information, but this summer, Steven

00:28:20.269 --> 00:28:22.769
Spielberg is releasing a doc, a documentary,

00:28:23.089 --> 00:28:25.809
a movie called disclosure day. Okay. And it's

00:28:25.809 --> 00:28:27.710
going to be a big tent pole movie. And if you

00:28:27.710 --> 00:28:31.549
go watch the trailer. It appears that this woman

00:28:31.549 --> 00:28:35.490
who's up giving a local news weather update is

00:28:35.490 --> 00:28:37.690
overtaken by an alien and begins communicating

00:28:37.690 --> 00:28:42.150
in an alien tone. Okay. And the trailer has all

00:28:42.150 --> 00:28:44.849
this imagery of like people like holding crucifixes

00:28:44.849 --> 00:28:49.190
and looking scared and the kind of the last quote

00:28:49.190 --> 00:28:53.509
from the movie in that. trailer is a nun saying,

00:28:53.910 --> 00:28:57.829
why would He make such a vast universe, yet save

00:28:57.829 --> 00:29:01.329
it for us? That's like the go -away line in that

00:29:01.329 --> 00:29:03.450
trailer. And I think there's where you're starting

00:29:03.450 --> 00:29:06.549
to see, again, that interface between religion

00:29:06.549 --> 00:29:10.029
and these kinds of claims. My mind also goes

00:29:10.029 --> 00:29:14.009
like yours, Jason, to Genesis chapter 6, because

00:29:14.009 --> 00:29:17.900
that's kind of the crux of that text. whatever

00:29:17.900 --> 00:29:19.920
you would call them, they are extraterrestrial

00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:23.960
in a sense. Sure. Extradimensional as well. But

00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:27.039
in some way, I subscribe to the theory that that

00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:31.539
is what we would commonly call angels interfacing

00:29:31.539 --> 00:29:34.079
with human women. Okay. And this is referencing

00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:36.420
what is usually commonly known as the Nephilim,

00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:38.700
right? Yeah. And the Nephilim are their offspring,

00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:40.880
which I believe Nephilim translates to fallen

00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:43.700
ones. Is that close enough? And then the Nephilim

00:29:43.700 --> 00:29:47.240
kind of get caught up into the Anikim that Joshua

00:29:47.240 --> 00:29:49.539
was fighting in the conquest, the Rephaim. The

00:29:49.539 --> 00:29:53.039
six -fingered, like, larger giants. I mean, depending

00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:55.339
on your translation, Goliath, which is, I think,

00:29:56.140 --> 00:29:58.359
a remnant of this, was something like nine feet

00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:05.099
tall. And we're kind of into just general cryptid

00:30:05.099 --> 00:30:07.900
territory here. So not just aliens, but... A

00:30:07.900 --> 00:30:10.880
lot of our old legends, right? Dragons, giants.

00:30:11.180 --> 00:30:15.640
Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh. Bigfoot even, like things

00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:19.059
like that. Hercules. Potentially, yeah. I mean

00:30:19.059 --> 00:30:21.000
the Bible refers to them as the men of renown.

00:30:21.579 --> 00:30:25.299
That these were men of note. They were famous

00:30:25.299 --> 00:30:27.960
for various reasons. And I think we can infer

00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:31.619
that they were pretty generally bad. And the

00:30:31.619 --> 00:30:35.240
flood was partially brought on to wipe them out.

00:30:35.339 --> 00:30:39.859
Yeah. So there's a little bit of background.

00:30:40.279 --> 00:30:43.880
What we mean when we bring up Genesis 6 is this

00:30:43.880 --> 00:30:47.319
theory that we've got something coming from outside,

00:30:47.980 --> 00:30:51.200
in that sense a true alien, interfacing with

00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:53.039
human beings in such a way as to bring offspring

00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:56.380
that are part human. Yeah, and the background

00:30:56.380 --> 00:30:58.519
among evangelicals who believe the Bible is sort

00:30:58.519 --> 00:31:00.839
of two lines of thought on this. There's angels

00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:03.119
who cohabitate with human women. They produce

00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:07.000
these Beings that are neither and they're monstrous

00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:09.960
and that provokes the flood, right? Yeah That's

00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:11.839
the theory I subscribe to the other dominant

00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:14.779
theory is that that mixing is the godly line

00:31:14.779 --> 00:31:17.420
of Sith, right? Mirroring the ungodly line of

00:31:17.420 --> 00:31:20.579
Kane The reason I don't hold to that one is that

00:31:20.579 --> 00:31:22.460
it just doesn't make sense to me why that kind

00:31:22.460 --> 00:31:25.319
of commingling would produce men of renown Yeah,

00:31:26.180 --> 00:31:29.279
especially compelling about that. Yeah And I

00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:32.000
mean, we have godly people breeding with ungodly

00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.519
people all the time, and none of them have become

00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:38.440
Gilgamesh. So, I don't mean to throw shade on

00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:40.019
anybody who holds that. I did it one time in

00:31:40.019 --> 00:31:44.200
my life. No explanatory model there is perfect

00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:46.480
without challenges. I just think the one that

00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:48.099
accounts for the information the best is that

00:31:48.099 --> 00:31:53.960
this is angels and humans. And so, at minimum,

00:31:55.299 --> 00:32:00.160
Genesis 6 records a time where this sort of Extraterrestrial

00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:03.059
extra -dimensional contact has been made. Okay

00:32:03.059 --> 00:32:06.779
So now with this in mind, we're talking now about

00:32:06.779 --> 00:32:10.660
the government thinking about disclosing Contact

00:32:10.660 --> 00:32:14.500
or presence or perhaps fleeting presence or something

00:32:14.500 --> 00:32:18.099
like that rumors video, whatever they may have

00:32:18.099 --> 00:32:21.500
that there's something somewhere and You know

00:32:21.500 --> 00:32:24.339
when they when they came the first time they

00:32:24.339 --> 00:32:27.019
produced offspring when they come this time they

00:32:27.019 --> 00:32:30.039
may or may not Seek that out the I'm again. I'm

00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:31.980
we're thinking in theory right or they could

00:32:31.980 --> 00:32:34.759
or they could yeah Yeah, and so I don't know

00:32:34.759 --> 00:32:37.880
Or they maybe have been all along and it's not

00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:41.200
yeah, or they may manipulate some to do it. Yeah.

00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:45.500
Yeah, maybe so There are a lot of UFO abductees

00:32:45.500 --> 00:32:48.759
who are women who claim that they have their

00:32:48.759 --> 00:32:51.880
reproduction has been experimented with you know

00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:54.819
But Jason you brought that up. I answered quite

00:32:54.819 --> 00:32:56.759
a bit on that. Did you want to say more on Genesis

00:32:56.759 --> 00:33:00.460
six? No, no. I mean, you hit all the high points

00:33:00.460 --> 00:33:04.400
that I was thinking. There's a lot of different

00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:07.119
theories out there. You've got the gap theory.

00:33:07.910 --> 00:33:10.490
pre -Adamic race and things like that. Yeah.

00:33:10.529 --> 00:33:11.930
So, listener, if you're just not familiar with

00:33:11.930 --> 00:33:13.750
gap theory, you've probably met and ran into

00:33:13.750 --> 00:33:16.549
somewhere that between Genesis 1 -1 and Genesis

00:33:16.549 --> 00:33:19.930
1 -2, there's an indefinite period of time. Something

00:33:19.930 --> 00:33:23.230
went wrong on the original creation. God reduces

00:33:23.230 --> 00:33:25.750
it to the formless wasteland again and starts

00:33:25.750 --> 00:33:28.430
the project again. So, it's like a flood narrative

00:33:28.430 --> 00:33:31.309
before we get to the flood. I find it highly

00:33:31.309 --> 00:33:34.190
speculative. Sure. Yeah. I'm not in agreement

00:33:34.190 --> 00:33:36.529
with that. Sure. But it's just out there. Yeah.

00:33:36.730 --> 00:33:39.109
Yeah. People need to, people need to know those

00:33:39.109 --> 00:33:42.329
things. And that exists partly because the, uh,

00:33:42.430 --> 00:33:44.009
the age of the earth, right? Like the theories

00:33:44.009 --> 00:33:45.990
about the earth is, is, I don't know what they're

00:33:45.990 --> 00:33:48.569
saying. They keep changing it because it's not

00:33:48.569 --> 00:33:50.730
doing what they want it to do. But the theory

00:33:50.730 --> 00:33:52.769
being that, that because the earth is millions

00:33:52.769 --> 00:33:54.529
or billions of years old, whatever they're now

00:33:54.529 --> 00:33:56.869
saying that that has to be explained somehow.

00:33:56.950 --> 00:33:58.849
So there must have been an indeterminate gap,

00:33:59.029 --> 00:34:02.349
a time gap to explain why the actual structure

00:34:02.349 --> 00:34:06.180
of the planet is old. Yeah. And my easy answer

00:34:06.180 --> 00:34:08.340
to that has always just been, God made it old.

00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:10.980
Sure. I mean, when He made Adam, He didn't make

00:34:10.980 --> 00:34:13.059
a fetus, right? He made an adult male. So He

00:34:13.059 --> 00:34:15.559
made a mature planet. That's just easy for me.

00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:17.880
Yeah. If you met Adam 10 minutes after he was

00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:21.300
created, you would think he was 20 to 30 to 40.

00:34:21.980 --> 00:34:26.500
So there's an appearance of age. Yeah. So that's

00:34:26.500 --> 00:34:28.340
not really a hard one for me to solve. And I

00:34:28.340 --> 00:34:29.719
don't really feel like I need the gap theory

00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:31.940
to get there. No. Well, I think gap theory is

00:34:31.940 --> 00:34:34.960
like, some of these other theories you've seen

00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:38.639
floated by evangelicals, Old Earth, things like

00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:40.400
that. I don't want to beat up on brothers who

00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:42.719
hold the Old Earth or something like that, but

00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:46.380
I see it as people trying to meet a burden to

00:34:46.380 --> 00:34:49.940
reconcile the faith with scientific consensus,

00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:52.199
and I feel no need to do that. Yeah, I'm just

00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:54.980
not interested in that. I don't really care if

00:34:54.980 --> 00:34:56.880
scientists think I'm stupid or not. That's fine.

00:34:56.920 --> 00:34:59.880
They can do that. At one time they believed Flies

00:34:59.880 --> 00:35:03.480
arose spontaneously from filth and what you said

00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:06.659
about abiogenesis. That's still their theory.

00:35:06.940 --> 00:35:09.679
That's the best thing they got to explain the

00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:12.420
beginning. But even that, you still have to explain

00:35:12.420 --> 00:35:15.360
where the planets came from. The big bang seems

00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:18.320
to be often cited, but how did that happen? There's

00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:21.659
got to be a beginner, a starter. And the philosophers

00:35:21.659 --> 00:35:23.880
figured that out long before these guys showed

00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:25.719
up and said there was no beginning of anything.

00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:28.710
You either hold science. in the highest regard

00:35:28.710 --> 00:35:34.489
are God. And that's really telling as to what

00:35:34.489 --> 00:35:37.130
you believe. Yeah. And I'm suspicious that that

00:35:37.130 --> 00:35:38.670
right there, that statement is going to play

00:35:38.670 --> 00:35:41.829
a role in how people take whatever news does

00:35:41.829 --> 00:35:44.989
or does not come out with disclosure. There'll

00:35:44.989 --> 00:35:49.769
be a link between what you hold high and your

00:35:49.769 --> 00:35:52.829
assessment of that information. Yeah. So then

00:35:52.829 --> 00:35:55.590
to connect Or to go back to Genesis 6 just a

00:35:55.590 --> 00:35:57.510
little bit, it raises the interesting question

00:35:57.510 --> 00:36:00.389
of the book of Enoch. And listeners, if you're

00:36:00.389 --> 00:36:04.730
not familiar, we have a raft of books that deal

00:36:04.730 --> 00:36:07.909
with what we would call biblical topics, the

00:36:07.909 --> 00:36:11.989
Old Testament world, the infancy of Jesus. And

00:36:11.989 --> 00:36:15.260
some of these are known garbage, where someone

00:36:15.260 --> 00:36:18.420
wanted to write in the name of an important figure

00:36:18.420 --> 00:36:21.400
from the Bible to kind of harness their credibility

00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:23.679
for their own ends. And so, you get these Gnostic

00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:27.440
gospels that are obviously bunk. You also have

00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:29.579
some though that the early church had a category

00:36:29.579 --> 00:36:31.719
for that I wish we had more of a category as

00:36:31.719 --> 00:36:33.840
evangelicals now. They called them helpful books.

00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:37.420
They don't make it into the canon. They're not

00:36:37.420 --> 00:36:40.300
the Word of God, but they're helpful for us to

00:36:40.300 --> 00:36:43.019
read that there's a notable example from history

00:36:43.019 --> 00:36:45.579
is the shepherd of Hermas. It was kind of a discipleship

00:36:45.579 --> 00:36:47.280
guide. They would be like, man, every Christian

00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:48.719
ought to read shepherd of Hermas. It's just not

00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:52.500
going in the canon. I think people hear, oh,

00:36:52.500 --> 00:36:55.400
that almost made it in, or that was considered

00:36:55.400 --> 00:36:58.039
for canonicity and it was rejected, and therefore,

00:36:58.219 --> 00:37:00.820
there must be something wicked about it, which

00:37:00.820 --> 00:37:02.980
is probably true of a couple of them. But in

00:37:02.980 --> 00:37:05.039
many cases, it's just like, well, it's a history

00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:08.639
book. It's mostly accurate, but it's not Holy

00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:10.900
Spirit authored. Therefore, it's not part of

00:37:10.900 --> 00:37:12.400
the Bible. And then you have the book, like the

00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:14.820
book of Enoch. The book of Enoch is a compilation

00:37:14.820 --> 00:37:19.900
over the years, probably by the church in Ethiopia.

00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:23.719
They tried to ban the book of Enoch, but the

00:37:23.719 --> 00:37:26.699
church in Ethiopia kept all the different quote

00:37:26.699 --> 00:37:31.079
versions and compiled it. So, the first book

00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:35.000
of Enoch, I like reading that book. It's a fun

00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:37.840
read. It does not supersede the Bible, just to

00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:41.510
drive that point home. But the second and third

00:37:41.510 --> 00:37:45.230
book of Enoch, that's a little bit harder to

00:37:45.230 --> 00:37:48.750
read for me. I don't trust those. Okay. Yeah,

00:37:48.750 --> 00:37:51.289
so, in that category of helpful books. So, you've

00:37:51.289 --> 00:37:53.230
got The Shepherd of Hermes, like, good for discipleship

00:37:53.230 --> 00:37:55.929
in the first couple centuries. Then you have

00:37:55.929 --> 00:37:58.610
books that are in the Catholic canon, like the

00:37:58.610 --> 00:38:00.630
book of… The apocryphal books. The apocryphal

00:38:00.630 --> 00:38:03.309
books. Some of them are just in there because

00:38:03.309 --> 00:38:05.190
it gives them their best hope of justifying things

00:38:05.190 --> 00:38:07.960
like purgatory and some of those doctrines. But

00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:10.199
there's two books called the Maccabees that are

00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:13.039
inter -testamental history. What's going on with

00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:14.559
the Jewish people between the Old and the New

00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:16.280
Testament? I think everybody ought to read the

00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:19.500
Maccabees. I think it's just important to understand

00:38:19.500 --> 00:38:23.000
the world of the New Testament. Well, Enoch is

00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:27.079
even kind of stands above those because first

00:38:27.079 --> 00:38:31.059
Enoch is cited twice in the New Testament. So,

00:38:31.179 --> 00:38:32.860
whatever you do with the book of Enoch, people

00:38:32.860 --> 00:38:34.599
like Tertullian thought it was scripture. He

00:38:34.599 --> 00:38:36.599
eventually submitted the will of the church and

00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:39.659
said it's not, but it shows up twice in the New

00:38:39.659 --> 00:38:42.199
Testament. Did Jesus even speak about it? There's

00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:46.420
allusions, you know. And so, we know at least

00:38:46.420 --> 00:38:49.280
two passages in what we would call First Enoch

00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:52.159
actually happen, and we know that because they're

00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:55.000
in scripture. Yeah. And it's weird stuff. It's

00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:57.760
like Satan and Michael arguing over the body

00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:01.059
of Moses, right? Like, that's pretty out there.

00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:03.119
Yeah, that's definitely one of those passages

00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:05.179
that you get to. It's in Jude, is that correct?

00:39:05.460 --> 00:39:08.500
Yeah. And you're just like, whoa, that seems

00:39:08.500 --> 00:39:11.179
big. I want more detail about that. But the Bible

00:39:11.179 --> 00:39:13.019
passes on over it because it's not really the

00:39:13.019 --> 00:39:16.019
point of what Jude is talking about. It's just

00:39:16.019 --> 00:39:18.599
a way for him to reinforce this point. Yep. So

00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:21.610
I think first Enoch, That's what I mean when

00:39:21.610 --> 00:39:23.150
I refer to the book of Enoch. That's the one

00:39:23.150 --> 00:39:26.110
that I think has some help. So, I'm very open

00:39:26.110 --> 00:39:30.590
to what it records, and it sort of gives an expanded

00:39:30.590 --> 00:39:33.789
narrative about Genesis 6. The idea there is

00:39:33.789 --> 00:39:36.650
that there's a conspiracy of certain named angels,

00:39:36.849 --> 00:39:40.090
gives them names, and they decide they're going

00:39:40.090 --> 00:39:42.769
to rebel against Yahweh to take up with women.

00:39:43.710 --> 00:39:49.849
And in effect, they barter with mankind We'll

00:39:49.849 --> 00:39:52.150
give you certain gifts. You give us these women.

00:39:52.670 --> 00:39:54.030
And if you think about the way the ancient world

00:39:54.030 --> 00:39:56.250
functioned, there were dowries, there were exchanges.

00:39:56.269 --> 00:39:59.030
It's a pretty common thing amongst normal people.

00:39:59.130 --> 00:40:02.230
Yep. And so, like one of the angels gives to

00:40:02.230 --> 00:40:06.969
mankind metalworking and teaches them the arts

00:40:06.969 --> 00:40:09.570
of warfare. And the way I've explained it to

00:40:09.570 --> 00:40:11.250
my family in our church, we went through this

00:40:11.250 --> 00:40:12.889
when we went through Genesis not too long ago,

00:40:13.329 --> 00:40:17.369
is that mankind I think was going to become masters

00:40:17.369 --> 00:40:21.329
of their domain. but you don't give developmental

00:40:21.329 --> 00:40:25.010
stages certain tools. Sure. Yeah, my six -year

00:40:25.010 --> 00:40:26.969
-old does not play with the running chainsaw.

00:40:27.070 --> 00:40:30.670
Yep. Right? Right. He might be able to handle

00:40:30.670 --> 00:40:33.510
a pocket knife if I'm watching him, but there's

00:40:33.510 --> 00:40:35.789
a limit, right? But one day he'll get a chainsaw.

00:40:35.869 --> 00:40:39.269
Exactly. You're raising him to use table saws

00:40:39.269 --> 00:40:41.190
and chainsaws and all that stuff, but it would

00:40:41.190 --> 00:40:43.809
be monstrous to hand that to him when he's young.

00:40:43.829 --> 00:40:46.150
Sure. Same deal with guns. I mean, we're Southerners.

00:40:46.429 --> 00:40:49.539
My family's we just enjoy shooting guns. I'm

00:40:49.539 --> 00:40:52.420
not handing it to my young kids and walking away.

00:40:53.179 --> 00:40:57.219
So, the idea kind of from Enoch is that the sinister

00:40:57.219 --> 00:41:00.300
move by these angels was to give us a whole bunch

00:41:00.300 --> 00:41:05.159
of guns when developmentally as a people, we

00:41:05.159 --> 00:41:08.000
were toddlers. And there was arts of seduction

00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:12.780
that were taught in the uses of roots and spellcraft

00:41:12.780 --> 00:41:16.559
and counter spells. Well, let me ask this question.

00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:18.880
So this is a little bit of a deviation and I'm,

00:41:18.980 --> 00:41:20.139
you're not, you're getting to your point here,

00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:23.119
but like, are those arts lost or do we have them?

00:41:23.820 --> 00:41:26.780
Like is that knowledge still with mankind? Yeah.

00:41:27.079 --> 00:41:31.400
I think that those arts, I mean, so arts of war,

00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:35.719
like metallurgy, blacksmithing, if Enoch's right

00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:38.150
and I'm open, very open to him being right. We

00:41:38.150 --> 00:41:41.050
didn't learn that by sort of evolutionary processes.

00:41:41.349 --> 00:41:43.250
There's a glint in a rock and we figure out how

00:41:43.250 --> 00:41:46.769
to extract it and eat it. We got a kind of a

00:41:46.769 --> 00:41:50.230
fast forward tutorial on that. Arts of seduction,

00:41:50.469 --> 00:41:54.289
I mean, look around us, man. We are in a pornified

00:41:54.289 --> 00:41:57.869
culture. Sure. Right. So even goofy stuff that

00:41:57.869 --> 00:42:00.389
I tell my kids, like famously on this podcast,

00:42:00.570 --> 00:42:03.360
I milk cows. you know, who's the first person

00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:05.300
who looked at a calf drinking from its mother

00:42:05.300 --> 00:42:07.159
and thought, I'm going to try that. Yeah. You

00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:08.940
know, now you could have been some desperate

00:42:08.940 --> 00:42:11.400
place of starvation, going to do whatever, but

00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:14.320
there's just certain things we do that it seems

00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:16.679
really hard to figure out who, who came up with

00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:18.460
this idea. We, I mean, there's certain plants

00:42:18.460 --> 00:42:21.099
we eat that are poisonous unless cooked in a

00:42:21.099 --> 00:42:24.360
very specific way. Um, maybe that happened by

00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:26.980
what we would call trial and error or maybe we

00:42:26.980 --> 00:42:29.079
were told. hey, you can do this with this thing,

00:42:29.099 --> 00:42:30.980
it's going to give you these. Moil it and it's

00:42:30.980 --> 00:42:34.400
fine, whatever. One of the theories that I've

00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:37.099
found interesting is that humans before the flood

00:42:37.099 --> 00:42:40.119
were significantly more technologically advanced

00:42:40.119 --> 00:42:42.900
than they are usually assumed to be. The depictions

00:42:42.900 --> 00:42:44.880
of Noah, he's always sort of looking like an

00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:48.940
old Bible guy with his wooden boat, and they

00:42:48.940 --> 00:42:53.320
used oxen to pull things around. Some folks have

00:42:53.320 --> 00:42:56.340
speculated that the story of Atlantis is derived

00:42:56.340 --> 00:43:00.250
from civilization lost in the flood that was

00:43:00.250 --> 00:43:02.849
that story was you know telephone game down through

00:43:02.849 --> 00:43:07.130
the ages by the sons of Noah I guess and That

00:43:07.130 --> 00:43:08.909
you know they may have possessed advanced technology

00:43:08.909 --> 00:43:10.630
doesn't even made a movie about this right like

00:43:10.630 --> 00:43:12.650
there's an Atlantis movie which is one of their

00:43:12.650 --> 00:43:16.190
last good ones I think and When they get down

00:43:16.190 --> 00:43:17.690
there the people are primitive, but they actually

00:43:17.690 --> 00:43:19.150
have the technology. They've just forgotten how

00:43:19.150 --> 00:43:22.400
to use it And I have wondered if that's the case,

00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:25.139
that they may not have had what we have, but

00:43:25.139 --> 00:43:26.800
they may have had a lot more than we think they

00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:29.059
did, or they may have had more. I mean, did they

00:43:29.059 --> 00:43:32.420
have computers? What kinds of things did they

00:43:32.420 --> 00:43:34.980
have and what were they given by this group?

00:43:35.239 --> 00:43:38.059
Yeah, the thing that is sort of heaviest on the

00:43:38.059 --> 00:43:40.719
scale for me on this is ancient Egypt. There

00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:44.219
are certain rooms in the pyramids that contain

00:43:44.219 --> 00:43:47.880
artifacts, like single stones, that cannot fit

00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:52.130
in there. with any doorway in the room. There's

00:43:52.130 --> 00:43:55.269
certain milling that we can't replicate today

00:43:55.269 --> 00:43:57.849
in terms of precision and milling through rock.

00:43:59.349 --> 00:44:02.110
And Doug Van Doren is a guy that I've read very

00:44:02.110 --> 00:44:04.389
profically. He's a Reformed Baptist pastor out

00:44:04.389 --> 00:44:06.610
in Colorado. He's got a great book on Baptist

00:44:06.610 --> 00:44:09.349
covenant theology. He's also written a book on

00:44:09.349 --> 00:44:13.460
sort of the The Wu stuff we're talking about

00:44:13.460 --> 00:44:16.099
from Genesis 6 from a biblical angle and some

00:44:16.099 --> 00:44:18.219
of the illustrations he has in there from Egypt

00:44:18.219 --> 00:44:23.719
They look like the DNA helix Okay, and I don't

00:44:23.719 --> 00:44:25.119
know what they would how would they figure that

00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:28.239
out without? Microscope and a microscope is not

00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:30.039
the right term. I'm sure but you know what? I

00:44:30.039 --> 00:44:33.739
mean, yeah without diagnostic tools like we have

00:44:33.739 --> 00:44:37.739
Even the concept right? Yeah, and you know he

00:44:37.739 --> 00:44:40.510
goes into some more speculation that if they

00:44:40.510 --> 00:44:43.130
were technologically advanced, some of the, the

00:44:43.130 --> 00:44:45.010
same way that we think like Gilgamesh and Hercules

00:44:45.010 --> 00:44:47.570
might connect to some of the Nephilim, he would

00:44:47.570 --> 00:44:51.349
say things like the Chimeras, the Griffin. Right.

00:44:51.469 --> 00:44:53.769
Some other mythological beasts of some kind.

00:44:54.050 --> 00:44:56.730
The Minotaur. They may have been doing genetic

00:44:56.730 --> 00:44:59.210
experimentation in a way that would blow us away.

00:44:59.289 --> 00:45:01.329
And I know that sounds really out there, but

00:45:01.329 --> 00:45:03.429
I'm very open to that. Well, the first book of

00:45:03.429 --> 00:45:06.230
Enoch kind of alludes to that. It kind of alludes

00:45:06.230 --> 00:45:09.449
to angels. Not just experimenting with humans,

00:45:09.650 --> 00:45:11.750
but experimenting with other animals as well.

00:45:12.170 --> 00:45:15.050
Yeah. It associates the offspring, these Nephilim

00:45:15.050 --> 00:45:17.909
offspring with cannibalism that basically the

00:45:17.909 --> 00:45:20.269
earth couldn't feed them enough. They were destroying

00:45:20.269 --> 00:45:24.250
everything. Um, so I'm very open to that. Yeah.

00:45:24.429 --> 00:45:27.090
And so to go all the way back to what we just

00:45:27.090 --> 00:45:31.909
said, Hey, we've made contact with aliens. What

00:45:31.909 --> 00:45:34.469
do I do pastorally with that? Sure. So you've

00:45:34.469 --> 00:45:37.510
got a congregant who's concerned. They come to

00:45:37.510 --> 00:45:40.030
you and they ask. You know, we don't know what

00:45:40.030 --> 00:45:41.670
they're going to say, but they've maybe heard

00:45:41.670 --> 00:45:43.849
that some disclosure is coming. How do you counsel

00:45:43.849 --> 00:45:47.489
them leading into this? Yeah. So, I've put some

00:45:47.489 --> 00:45:50.130
of this on social media because my frustrations

00:45:50.130 --> 00:45:52.369
were some of the discourse and evangelicalism

00:45:52.369 --> 00:45:55.550
about this, but my Bible tells me, as Jason alluded

00:45:55.550 --> 00:46:00.530
to earlier, to anticipate an unseen world full

00:46:00.530 --> 00:46:03.110
of powerful intelligences that are not human.

00:46:04.220 --> 00:46:08.000
I have a category for that. They generally are

00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:11.460
described as angels and demons. And the passages

00:46:11.460 --> 00:46:14.099
we referenced earlier, they seem to have divisions

00:46:14.099 --> 00:46:16.820
within them. Not just cherubim and seraphim,

00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:19.820
but thrones. I think we've all got our mental

00:46:19.820 --> 00:46:23.619
image of the guys in white robes and feathery

00:46:23.619 --> 00:46:27.860
eagle wings with their halos. And that's not

00:46:27.860 --> 00:46:29.519
a description we see of them in the scriptures.

00:46:29.719 --> 00:46:32.139
In fact, the descriptions we see of them that

00:46:32.139 --> 00:46:35.400
are written down, probably the most famous being

00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:39.840
maybe the one from Ezekiel. It's horrifying.

00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:43.179
It makes absolute sense why every time an angel

00:46:43.179 --> 00:46:46.519
shows up, everybody flips out and is terrified.

00:46:46.619 --> 00:46:49.039
Or they try to worship them and they have to

00:46:49.039 --> 00:46:52.460
be cautioned against it. And so, you know, be

00:46:52.460 --> 00:46:54.880
not afraid is what they always have to say. And

00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:56.480
I just, you know, it seems like they have to

00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:57.920
say more than that, but I don't know, maybe something

00:46:57.920 --> 00:46:59.360
like that comes staring at you. You're going

00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:02.300
to obey. Sure. And just not be afraid. Sure.

00:47:02.659 --> 00:47:05.500
So we've got these, we've got these strange apparitions,

00:47:05.659 --> 00:47:08.440
which we think of as angels, but there's no reason

00:47:08.440 --> 00:47:10.739
to think that there's a homogeneity necessarily.

00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:13.179
They may all look different. They may all behave

00:47:13.179 --> 00:47:15.099
in different ways. Different vocation. We just

00:47:15.099 --> 00:47:17.119
don't have enough detail to make any assumptions

00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:20.820
in this regard. Right. And it's even more complex

00:47:20.820 --> 00:47:23.619
than that because angels, as far as we understand

00:47:23.619 --> 00:47:25.440
from Scripture, are spiritual beings. They're

00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:27.880
not in the way that humans are intrinsically

00:47:27.880 --> 00:47:31.719
wedded to a physical form. These angels sometimes

00:47:31.719 --> 00:47:35.300
show up looking like a ball of eyes. Other times,

00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:38.139
they show up to have a meal with Abraham and

00:47:38.139 --> 00:47:40.320
they look like gods. Yeah. Well, when they went

00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:44.199
into Sodom and Gomorrah, they were… different

00:47:44.199 --> 00:47:46.360
enough looking that they caught people's attention.

00:47:46.420 --> 00:47:48.199
But they were attracted. They weren't monsters,

00:47:48.199 --> 00:47:51.559
right? They were very desirable. Right. Yeah.

00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:53.400
The debased people of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted

00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:55.480
to have relations with them. Right. Which again,

00:47:55.579 --> 00:47:57.460
sounds like Genesis 6. So this is probably not

00:47:57.460 --> 00:47:59.420
a floating ball of eyes, right? We can assume

00:47:59.420 --> 00:48:02.099
that this is probably a human shaped. Either

00:48:02.099 --> 00:48:04.840
in temporary status or just when they come to

00:48:04.840 --> 00:48:06.860
this plane of existence, they take a form that

00:48:06.860 --> 00:48:09.679
kind of looks like us and is like us enough that

00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:11.940
they can sit down and eat bread. Right. Right.

00:48:13.809 --> 00:48:17.050
So, the person comes to me and says, hey, what

00:48:17.050 --> 00:48:18.369
in the world do we do with this? Well, one, I'm

00:48:18.369 --> 00:48:20.829
going to say I believe scripture is sufficient

00:48:20.829 --> 00:48:22.769
to explain everything that humans are going to

00:48:22.769 --> 00:48:25.769
encounter. Two, I've already been told there's

00:48:25.769 --> 00:48:29.139
this pretty vast array. of these beings. Now

00:48:29.139 --> 00:48:31.840
they belong to one or two categories, but they

00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:34.619
could present themselves in any range of diversity.

00:48:34.760 --> 00:48:36.239
Well, let me ask you to speculate on something.

00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:38.820
Well, and they can be physical would be the third

00:48:38.820 --> 00:48:42.079
thing I would say is like, so at any point that

00:48:42.079 --> 00:48:46.219
we're within that realm, extra terrestrial or

00:48:46.219 --> 00:48:49.260
dimensional beings who have intelligence and

00:48:49.260 --> 00:48:53.079
have physicality, there's no damage done to my

00:48:53.079 --> 00:48:56.239
faith whatsoever. Sure. So you said that they

00:48:56.239 --> 00:48:58.840
can be in one or two categories. Or do we think

00:48:58.840 --> 00:49:02.659
that there's only two categories? That's my assumption

00:49:02.659 --> 00:49:04.760
because I assume the Bible is sufficient and

00:49:04.760 --> 00:49:06.920
it's pretty clear on this. Okay. But I do think

00:49:06.920 --> 00:49:09.800
there may be a vast array of subdivisions. Okay.

00:49:10.460 --> 00:49:12.920
They're layers of heaven. So in a sense that

00:49:12.920 --> 00:49:15.320
they are either fallen or not fallen, there's

00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:17.960
two kinds. And then amongst those, there's probably

00:49:17.960 --> 00:49:20.920
a variety that we don't know. Right. Okay. And

00:49:20.920 --> 00:49:23.119
so a guy like Thomas Aquinas who towered over

00:49:23.119 --> 00:49:25.179
the medieval age, I mean, I'm not Roman Catholic.

00:49:25.860 --> 00:49:28.280
I've learned a lot from Thomas, but you know,

00:49:28.300 --> 00:49:31.179
he's not my guy, but he dominated medieval theology.

00:49:31.699 --> 00:49:37.400
He has a vast catalog of like regional spirits

00:49:37.400 --> 00:49:40.400
and even like what we would call fairies and

00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:43.500
things that have a particular delegated authority

00:49:43.500 --> 00:49:46.139
from the Lord to govern over say a forest, a

00:49:46.139 --> 00:49:48.739
particular forest. So this may be some, Aquinas

00:49:48.739 --> 00:49:51.289
may be... picking up on something that the ancient

00:49:51.289 --> 00:49:54.409
world picked up on with the idea of dryads or

00:49:54.409 --> 00:49:57.469
nymphs, right? Like there's even Tolkien refers

00:49:57.469 --> 00:49:59.429
to this. It's all over Tolkien. It's all over

00:49:59.429 --> 00:50:01.150
Lewis. I think they got it from Taras. One of

00:50:01.150 --> 00:50:02.869
the things that I really love that Tolkien said

00:50:02.869 --> 00:50:05.070
once, and I'm still wrestling with whether this

00:50:05.070 --> 00:50:07.949
is a true thing or not, is that he said, we don't

00:50:07.949 --> 00:50:11.309
see nymphs in the water and dryads in the trees

00:50:11.309 --> 00:50:13.809
anymore because we don't eat the food that grows

00:50:13.809 --> 00:50:15.909
on our own land. We drink the water that comes

00:50:15.909 --> 00:50:19.030
out of our own ground and live in the same places.

00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:21.599
You know, our bread comes from far away from

00:50:21.599 --> 00:50:24.980
wheat -grown somewhere else. And if we were more

00:50:24.980 --> 00:50:29.019
kind of in body and soul in our land, we would

00:50:29.019 --> 00:50:31.280
have more of a connection and those kinds of

00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:33.760
things would probably be visible more to us.

00:50:34.019 --> 00:50:37.559
Man, I think about that exact same quote and

00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:41.599
thought all the time. And, you know, we talked

00:50:41.599 --> 00:50:43.739
about chronological snobbery on a previous episode.

00:50:44.320 --> 00:50:47.860
It was pretty common among Scots -Irish people.

00:50:47.949 --> 00:50:50.349
and their descendants that when a baby was born,

00:50:50.550 --> 00:50:53.710
they would go out and tell it to the trees. We

00:50:53.710 --> 00:50:55.989
look at that and say, those superstitious, silly...

00:50:55.989 --> 00:50:59.190
What a waste of time. Right. They weren't stupid.

00:51:00.809 --> 00:51:04.570
In Nordic countries now, they still build their

00:51:04.570 --> 00:51:07.510
highways around where they think troll villages

00:51:07.510 --> 00:51:12.469
are clustered. Because if they don't, the project

00:51:12.469 --> 00:51:18.469
hits devastating catastrophe. They assume a bad

00:51:18.469 --> 00:51:20.590
luck is attached to this? Yes. Okay. Because

00:51:20.590 --> 00:51:24.289
of troll magic, I guess. Yeah, right. I don't

00:51:24.289 --> 00:51:27.469
think they're stupid or superstitious for owning

00:51:27.469 --> 00:51:31.510
some of those things. So yeah, I mean, all of

00:51:31.510 --> 00:51:33.889
this isn't just within the realm of Christian

00:51:33.889 --> 00:51:36.449
literature. It's in the realm of established

00:51:36.449 --> 00:51:39.449
Christian theology and certainly just basic Bible

00:51:39.449 --> 00:51:43.449
exegesis. Okay. I can pull back the cover of

00:51:43.449 --> 00:51:47.039
this just a little bit. Most people think that

00:51:47.039 --> 00:51:51.139
we are human beings with a spirit. I think we

00:51:51.139 --> 00:51:54.579
are spirits with a body. And when you, when you

00:51:54.579 --> 00:51:57.079
come at it from that direction, it gives you

00:51:57.079 --> 00:52:00.159
a little bit more understanding of what we are

00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:04.079
actually living in because God from a spiritual

00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:08.719
realm that is outside of our time, outside of

00:52:08.719 --> 00:52:12.639
our space, outside of our matter. He created

00:52:12.639 --> 00:52:17.030
all this. How narcissistic are we, or is our

00:52:17.030 --> 00:52:22.409
viewpoint that it centers around our realm, around

00:52:22.409 --> 00:52:28.889
this physical realm, and that is truth, where

00:52:28.889 --> 00:52:33.590
God exists outside of that, and He created what

00:52:33.590 --> 00:52:37.349
we live in from outside of that. So surely He's

00:52:37.349 --> 00:52:39.750
concerned with that. Well, I'm just saying that

00:52:39.750 --> 00:52:44.769
we think things are impossible. Our minds just,

00:52:45.070 --> 00:52:49.190
they're not wired to pick up on all the synapses

00:52:49.190 --> 00:52:52.730
of a spiritual realm. Our brains are wired to

00:52:52.730 --> 00:52:54.210
react. The brain itself is a physical organ,

00:52:54.250 --> 00:52:58.070
right? And all our senses are designed to detect

00:52:58.070 --> 00:53:01.869
physical phenomenon. But I say all this just

00:53:01.869 --> 00:53:04.869
to add that point of reference that we are spiritual

00:53:04.869 --> 00:53:08.760
beings at our core. When we die, we revert to

00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:10.599
that. And a universe filled with other spiritual…

00:53:10.599 --> 00:53:12.739
And we would say temporarily, because the body's

00:53:12.739 --> 00:53:15.219
going to be erased. Right, but there is an existence

00:53:15.219 --> 00:53:17.880
that can be disembodied. Well, and this is a

00:53:17.880 --> 00:53:19.860
bit speculative too, but if you read Genesis,

00:53:20.059 --> 00:53:22.659
Genesis makes you wonder what Adam had access

00:53:22.659 --> 00:53:25.460
to that we don't. Sure. He's living in a garden,

00:53:26.179 --> 00:53:28.699
talking snake shows up, he's walking with God.

00:53:29.639 --> 00:53:31.940
I just think the pre -fall life must have been

00:53:31.940 --> 00:53:34.280
so radically different. Yeah, I assume so. And

00:53:34.280 --> 00:53:37.360
you get glimpses of it in the Old Testament.

00:53:37.579 --> 00:53:40.300
So Jacob takes a nap in the desert and he sees

00:53:40.300 --> 00:53:42.579
angels ascending and descending at a particular

00:53:42.579 --> 00:53:45.280
spot in time, right? He had no awareness of it

00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:47.900
before he laid down, but God chose to kind of

00:53:47.900 --> 00:53:50.059
open his eyes and now he realizes he's in this

00:53:50.059 --> 00:53:53.659
place of particular transport. Right. I can't

00:53:53.659 --> 00:53:54.800
remember the reference off the top of my head,

00:53:54.940 --> 00:53:57.000
but y 'all know what I'm talking about. There's

00:53:57.000 --> 00:53:58.860
a time where a king's going into battle, he's

00:53:58.860 --> 00:54:02.019
terrified of the forces he's fighting, the prophet

00:54:02.019 --> 00:54:04.780
that's accompanying him asks God to let him see,

00:54:05.119 --> 00:54:08.119
and he sees this tremendous force of angelic

00:54:08.119 --> 00:54:11.119
beings all around, and his confidence is restored.

00:54:11.619 --> 00:54:13.679
Those were there, he just didn't have the ability

00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:16.519
to see it. But in God's providence, he may have

00:54:16.519 --> 00:54:19.219
restored what Adam could have just known. He

00:54:19.219 --> 00:54:23.059
might have, yeah. You know, Milton, and you referenced

00:54:23.059 --> 00:54:25.340
Milton earlier in Paradise Lost, I think he,

00:54:25.539 --> 00:54:28.000
with his poetic license, is picking up on some

00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:30.510
of this. Because there's a lengthy section of

00:54:30.510 --> 00:54:32.789
the book where there's exposition from an angel

00:54:32.789 --> 00:54:35.570
to Adam about the fall. It's a warning that there's

00:54:35.570 --> 00:54:39.070
a fallen angel that has been permitted to be

00:54:39.070 --> 00:54:41.110
in this vicinity. He's probably going to come

00:54:41.110 --> 00:54:45.150
bother you. And Adam inquires about what the

00:54:45.150 --> 00:54:46.610
circumstances are that led to this. He wants

00:54:46.610 --> 00:54:50.070
to know about the fall of the angels. And so

00:54:50.070 --> 00:54:52.250
that's a flashback sequence where we get to see

00:54:52.250 --> 00:54:54.309
the war in heaven between Satan and his fallen

00:54:54.309 --> 00:54:59.239
ones and Christ and the upright angels. And Milton

00:54:59.239 --> 00:55:01.679
depicts this as Adam welcoming a dinner guest,

00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:04.219
basically. Like he has Eve go out and prepare

00:55:04.219 --> 00:55:07.400
food for them to entertain him. And I just, I

00:55:07.400 --> 00:55:09.059
can't help but think Milton may have been onto

00:55:09.059 --> 00:55:12.199
something or at least tapping into a previous

00:55:12.199 --> 00:55:14.760
understanding of the relationship between angels

00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:18.719
and the unfallen man as not necessarily equals.

00:55:18.780 --> 00:55:22.460
Cause it seems like Adam treats him not as a

00:55:22.460 --> 00:55:24.179
superior, he doesn't kneel before him or anything

00:55:24.179 --> 00:55:25.980
like that. After all, this was Adam's realm.

00:55:26.570 --> 00:55:30.130
But he does receive him like a dignitary of a

00:55:30.130 --> 00:55:32.090
kingdom. Like this is an important guest. This

00:55:32.090 --> 00:55:36.150
isn't just some random guy off the street. And

00:55:36.150 --> 00:55:38.989
I think Milton's maybe kind of on the same wavelength

00:55:38.989 --> 00:55:42.389
there. Yeah, those medieval guys really knew

00:55:42.389 --> 00:55:44.710
some stuff. They did. We treat them as quote

00:55:44.710 --> 00:55:48.250
unquote dark ages. Bull. Those guys knew some

00:55:48.250 --> 00:55:50.929
stuff. So we were talking about what pastoral

00:55:50.929 --> 00:55:52.730
advice you'd give. And the first thing you came

00:55:52.730 --> 00:55:55.130
to is just the understanding scripture is ready

00:55:55.130 --> 00:55:58.079
for this. and that's where our answers are. So,

00:55:58.099 --> 00:56:03.219
we need to be in Scripture, we need to know it,

00:56:03.280 --> 00:56:08.480
and through knowing it, you're prepared for what

00:56:08.480 --> 00:56:10.599
we would consider to be unprecedented, although

00:56:10.599 --> 00:56:12.679
it may not be so unprecedented after all. Yeah.

00:56:12.679 --> 00:56:16.079
2 Timothy 3, all Scriptures profitable, the way

00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:18.139
our confession summarizes it, everything needful

00:56:18.139 --> 00:56:20.019
for life and faith is found within the Scriptures.

00:56:20.139 --> 00:56:22.320
All right. So, just assume the Bible is sufficient.

00:56:22.639 --> 00:56:25.909
Okay. So this is where I would kind of do some

00:56:25.909 --> 00:56:30.670
triage. If something shows up and tells someone,

00:56:31.750 --> 00:56:36.130
I'm an intelligent being that evolved on a foreign

00:56:36.130 --> 00:56:39.949
planet and traveled the cosmos to meet with you

00:56:39.949 --> 00:56:43.449
and give you these great secrets, I'm going to

00:56:43.449 --> 00:56:47.829
say that is a fallen angel who is in the campaign

00:56:47.829 --> 00:56:52.510
of deception that I'm led by scripture to assume

00:56:52.650 --> 00:56:55.429
they're in the business of doing all the time.

00:56:55.590 --> 00:56:58.710
All right, so let's nail this down and just ask

00:56:58.710 --> 00:57:03.210
the big question. If an alien shows up and is

00:57:03.210 --> 00:57:06.610
viewable, visible, either to a mass of people

00:57:06.610 --> 00:57:09.449
or to an individual, do you think that it necessarily

00:57:09.449 --> 00:57:14.329
follows that that being is a fallen angel? So,

00:57:15.210 --> 00:57:17.289
I'm going to give kind of a triage answer to

00:57:17.289 --> 00:57:18.849
what I think some of the legitimate options are,

00:57:18.889 --> 00:57:21.920
but my default setting is yes. Okay. And here's

00:57:21.920 --> 00:57:23.599
why. Guilty until proven otherwise, right? Right.

00:57:23.599 --> 00:57:29.380
Okay. Because Scripture says that creation suffered

00:57:29.380 --> 00:57:33.000
in the fall of Adam. Okay. He was Lord of creation.

00:57:33.260 --> 00:57:37.400
That's not just the earth. Right. So, creation

00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:41.460
falls. We also have a category of beings, angels

00:57:41.460 --> 00:57:46.119
who fail. Uh huh. God intervened on behalf of

00:57:46.119 --> 00:57:48.920
humans in a way He did not with angels. Right.

00:57:49.260 --> 00:57:51.519
So the second person of the Trinity takes up

00:57:51.519 --> 00:57:54.679
our nature so he can suffer in our place and

00:57:54.679 --> 00:57:56.579
redeem us and give us his righteousness. He took

00:57:56.579 --> 00:57:59.800
on the nature of a human being to pay the cost

00:57:59.800 --> 00:58:02.900
that human beings owed. And he did not do this

00:58:02.900 --> 00:58:06.760
for angels. Jesus did not die on the cross in

00:58:06.760 --> 00:58:09.579
the nature of an angel. Right. The way Hebrews

00:58:09.579 --> 00:58:14.500
says this is he does not give help to the angels,

00:58:14.539 --> 00:58:18.090
but he does to the sons of Abraham. So there's,

00:58:18.250 --> 00:58:19.849
and this is in Enoch too. I mean, just pause

00:58:19.849 --> 00:58:21.909
right there and think about how blessed we are.

00:58:22.769 --> 00:58:26.010
Unimaginably. And totally unworthy, and yet God

00:58:26.010 --> 00:58:28.170
extended grace to us. He could easily have done

00:58:28.170 --> 00:58:30.170
the other thing. Yeah, and you just assume from

00:58:30.170 --> 00:58:32.429
what we read, angels are more intrinsically glorious.

00:58:32.909 --> 00:58:35.429
They have certain abilities that we think of

00:58:35.429 --> 00:58:36.889
as drained. We're described as lower than the

00:58:36.889 --> 00:58:40.150
angels initially, and yet we will judge them.

00:58:40.150 --> 00:58:43.030
And we were favored. Yep. Absolutely. You're

00:58:43.030 --> 00:58:44.730
exactly right. It should be a point of worship.

00:58:46.139 --> 00:58:49.219
So, if that's the case, what is the relationship

00:58:49.219 --> 00:58:51.719
of a hypothetical being that grew to evolutionary

00:58:51.719 --> 00:58:55.920
life on some far place? I just, I have nothing

00:58:55.920 --> 00:58:58.659
in the Bible that tells me that that is the case.

00:59:00.460 --> 00:59:03.659
And you then have to have, so you have the question

00:59:03.659 --> 00:59:05.480
of creation and fall, then you have the question

00:59:05.480 --> 00:59:09.000
of redemption. So, Adam is the federal head of

00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:12.280
humanity. Christ becomes the federal head of

00:59:12.280 --> 00:59:16.210
the elect. What category does the alien belong

00:59:16.210 --> 00:59:21.190
to? He's fallen under the curse of Adam. Is he

00:59:21.190 --> 00:59:23.909
like an angel? He's just damned, right? If you've

00:59:23.909 --> 00:59:25.670
rebelled and you're stuck there. There's no redeemer.

00:59:25.750 --> 00:59:28.769
There's no hope. Now some, I will say they're,

00:59:28.769 --> 00:59:31.150
you know, maybe it's Mormons, I could be wrong

00:59:31.150 --> 00:59:33.570
here, but they've, I think they've kind of assessed

00:59:33.570 --> 00:59:35.969
that this redemptive work has been done other

00:59:35.969 --> 00:59:39.170
places. Yeah. That Christ has come in the nature

00:59:39.170 --> 00:59:41.349
of other. And I don't know if they would say

00:59:41.349 --> 00:59:43.789
it's extraterrestrials, but I believe if I understand

00:59:43.789 --> 00:59:45.489
there, it's been a while since I looked at it.

00:59:45.510 --> 00:59:46.889
So if you're a Mormon out there, I'm sorry if

00:59:46.889 --> 00:59:50.550
I'm misconstruing. Well, I'm not really, but

00:59:50.550 --> 00:59:53.829
I need to repent. But I think my understanding

00:59:53.829 --> 00:59:57.030
is that they believe that if you live the holy

00:59:57.030 --> 01:00:00.250
life as they have prescribed it, you ascend to

01:00:00.250 --> 01:00:02.889
kind of a deity yourself on the other side of

01:00:02.889 --> 01:00:05.809
the grave. You get your own planet and then.

01:00:05.960 --> 01:00:08.139
I don't know if they think it's necessarily the

01:00:08.139 --> 01:00:10.139
case that a redemptive work has to then take

01:00:10.139 --> 01:00:14.039
place, almost like histories on repeat. But I

01:00:14.039 --> 01:00:15.780
think there are some people that are probably

01:00:15.780 --> 01:00:18.340
in various pseudo -Christian cults or they're

01:00:18.340 --> 01:00:20.239
just Christians that are in error who would say,

01:00:20.699 --> 01:00:22.679
no, he came as a redeemer to other intelligent

01:00:22.679 --> 01:00:25.159
life also, that they may have had the same thing

01:00:25.159 --> 01:00:28.039
happen. Well, again, I would just go back to

01:00:28.039 --> 01:00:30.219
the sufficiency issue there. Scripture is very

01:00:30.219 --> 01:00:33.000
clear. He did it for humans. He did not do it

01:00:33.000 --> 01:00:36.800
for angels. That seems to be comprehensive. There

01:00:36.800 --> 01:00:39.119
isn't another category of being, right? That

01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:41.440
we have, for sure. And so I was talking to somebody

01:00:41.440 --> 01:00:45.639
on X about this. This idea of like some intelligent

01:00:45.639 --> 01:00:49.920
life form that exists that can communicate has

01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:53.460
to have some relation to Adam. Sure. And I was

01:00:53.460 --> 01:00:55.440
casting a bound for what kind of parallels we

01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:58.300
would have. And I went to like Blue Whales. because

01:00:58.300 --> 01:01:00.019
they're supposed to be radically intelligent.

01:01:00.139 --> 01:01:02.059
They can communicate at a high level. We don't

01:01:02.059 --> 01:01:05.159
speak their language, but… Pretty sophisticated

01:01:05.159 --> 01:01:08.780
vocabulary for an animal. Yeah. I mean, anything

01:01:08.780 --> 01:01:11.480
like this would rise only to the level of a blue

01:01:11.480 --> 01:01:16.880
whale. Yeah. And I just… There's not a category

01:01:16.880 --> 01:01:20.780
in Scripture for them as in -souled beings that

01:01:20.780 --> 01:01:23.900
have some relationship to Yahweh. And if we take

01:01:23.900 --> 01:01:27.320
the Bible at its word that it's sufficient, for

01:01:27.320 --> 01:01:32.780
Christians in all ways, then if aliens are simply

01:01:32.780 --> 01:01:35.480
left out of it, but they do exist and they make

01:01:35.480 --> 01:01:37.500
contact with us, we now are in a place where

01:01:37.500 --> 01:01:39.880
scripture is insufficient. So, it's logically

01:01:39.880 --> 01:01:43.460
excluded from our faith. Yeah, and it could be

01:01:43.460 --> 01:01:46.860
that there's some heretofore unknown portion

01:01:46.860 --> 01:01:50.880
of scripture that unlocks and we see, but that's,

01:01:51.400 --> 01:01:53.280
I mean, we're into this project thousands of

01:01:53.280 --> 01:01:55.139
years. Yeah, I don't think that's going to happen.

01:01:55.159 --> 01:01:57.679
And that idea that, oh, all of a sudden this

01:01:57.679 --> 01:01:59.360
new experience has unlocked some new understanding

01:01:59.360 --> 01:02:01.940
of Scripture, that's always the seedbed of heresy.

01:02:01.940 --> 01:02:05.039
Right. Where you get crazy stuff. So, like, my

01:02:05.039 --> 01:02:07.340
foot's fully on the brake with all of that. Okay.

01:02:08.579 --> 01:02:11.800
Can I put on my tin -full hat for a second? Mine's

01:02:11.800 --> 01:02:13.900
been on. We're pretty far into that. Okay. There's

01:02:13.900 --> 01:02:17.900
a little late. But if, let's say, aliens appear

01:02:17.900 --> 01:02:21.340
to many people, there's also a great possibility

01:02:21.340 --> 01:02:24.599
it is a great deception. Lying signs and wonders.

01:02:24.809 --> 01:02:28.349
is a biblical category. Yes. So, we always need

01:02:28.349 --> 01:02:32.269
to have that in our minds as well because there's

01:02:32.269 --> 01:02:35.449
technology out there and I happen to know about

01:02:35.449 --> 01:02:38.730
some of it that is going to… Jason probably has

01:02:38.730 --> 01:02:40.650
like bought in on a partnership that has some

01:02:40.650 --> 01:02:44.769
of it. It's going to bury it. No, but there's

01:02:44.769 --> 01:02:48.170
going to be technology that is going to affect

01:02:48.170 --> 01:02:51.230
many, many people, that is going to mislead many,

01:02:51.230 --> 01:02:54.090
many people, that's going to convince many, many

01:02:54.090 --> 01:02:58.539
people. that there are things afoot that is just

01:02:58.539 --> 01:03:01.500
a flat out lie. Yeah. I mean, we're there already,

01:03:01.659 --> 01:03:03.820
right? Yes. You know, and it's only going to

01:03:03.820 --> 01:03:06.119
get better. And I say better in the sense of

01:03:06.119 --> 01:03:08.559
its believability. Yeah. You guys are nailing

01:03:08.559 --> 01:03:11.460
it. Like this is already human experience, right?

01:03:12.360 --> 01:03:14.539
And we're becoming more sophisticated. So Terry,

01:03:14.559 --> 01:03:16.420
when I say in triage, so I'm going to go to my

01:03:16.420 --> 01:03:19.099
next tier and I'm just going to own wildly much

01:03:19.099 --> 01:03:23.119
more speculative. Okay. Another explanatory model

01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:25.329
that I would be working through in that moment

01:03:25.329 --> 01:03:29.730
of contact is, we've already talked about it,

01:03:29.730 --> 01:03:32.929
if ancient societies knew how to do genetic manipulation,

01:03:33.809 --> 01:03:36.449
I can't remember how many years ago it was, and

01:03:36.449 --> 01:03:38.289
they announced that Dolly the sheep had been

01:03:38.289 --> 01:03:40.510
cloned. It was like the 90s. Yeah. Because that's

01:03:40.510 --> 01:03:43.789
when Jurassic Park came out, and it's kind of

01:03:43.789 --> 01:03:47.449
on the back of that early cloning success fad,

01:03:47.690 --> 01:03:49.750
and the Crichton's exploring the concept of what

01:03:49.750 --> 01:03:52.980
could this mean. It ends up selling a great book

01:03:52.980 --> 01:03:54.840
and making a cool movie about dinosaurs killing

01:03:54.840 --> 01:03:57.079
everyone. And then some other movies after that.

01:03:57.400 --> 01:03:59.320
Yeah, well I don't know what you're talking about.

01:03:59.639 --> 01:04:03.019
They're already growing human organs inside of

01:04:03.019 --> 01:04:05.960
monkeys now. Well and several years ago they

01:04:05.960 --> 01:04:08.260
announced they had grown human ears on the back

01:04:08.260 --> 01:04:11.719
of mice. And they're 3D printing organs. I mean

01:04:11.719 --> 01:04:14.340
we're talking about like that's something that

01:04:14.340 --> 01:04:17.840
even cloning is kind of, it's like almost old

01:04:17.840 --> 01:04:21.130
tech now. But anyway, you were saying? So, I'm

01:04:21.130 --> 01:04:26.090
very open to the idea that sinister forces have

01:04:26.090 --> 01:04:28.150
an interest and an ability. Again, going back

01:04:28.150 --> 01:04:31.070
to even bartering technology of humanity in Enoch

01:04:31.070 --> 01:04:34.429
and Genesis 6, they have a very sophisticated

01:04:34.429 --> 01:04:36.650
technological ability. They're physical enough

01:04:36.650 --> 01:04:39.269
to interact with the physical universe when they

01:04:39.269 --> 01:04:42.630
want to. So, in effect, I would be very open

01:04:42.630 --> 01:04:45.730
to the idea that these apparent alien beings

01:04:45.730 --> 01:04:51.579
are drones. These are bodies to give a spiritual

01:04:51.579 --> 01:04:57.679
being physicality. Like an automaton kind of,

01:04:57.679 --> 01:05:00.539
maybe avatar. Maybe that, yeah, that may be a

01:05:00.539 --> 01:05:03.639
better term. So potentially a fleshly being.

01:05:03.860 --> 01:05:06.119
So not like a robot necessarily, but functioning

01:05:06.119 --> 01:05:08.260
in that way. Yeah. And so again, to the point

01:05:08.260 --> 01:05:10.780
about scripture being sufficient, it seems that

01:05:10.780 --> 01:05:13.659
the fallen version of these beings we're talking

01:05:13.659 --> 01:05:16.980
about the Bible identifies have a profound interest

01:05:16.980 --> 01:05:19.780
in taking possession of a physical host. Okay.

01:05:20.000 --> 01:05:22.280
And you have the Gadarene demoniac and you have

01:05:22.280 --> 01:05:26.019
the pigs and you have Satan entering Judas on

01:05:26.019 --> 01:05:28.400
the trail. Again, with the cultural references,

01:05:28.639 --> 01:05:31.039
demon possession has always been, or at least,

01:05:31.199 --> 01:05:33.500
well, I guess it started with the exorcist probably

01:05:33.500 --> 01:05:35.539
is what kind of got it back into pop culture

01:05:35.539 --> 01:05:39.380
as a poorer trope, like the possession of a foreign

01:05:39.630 --> 01:05:43.510
being of a person. And it's just all over stuff.

01:05:43.570 --> 01:05:46.110
And every culture has this. Hindus think about

01:05:46.110 --> 01:05:48.449
possession. Right. Every culture thinks about

01:05:48.449 --> 01:05:53.510
possession. So would they be able to genetically

01:05:53.510 --> 01:05:56.610
engineer some kind of host that whatever it,

01:05:56.610 --> 01:05:59.010
you know, we get the sense that possession is

01:05:59.010 --> 01:06:01.070
sort of an extremely spiritual degraded state.

01:06:01.070 --> 01:06:03.510
Right. What does it take to get there? How long

01:06:03.510 --> 01:06:05.449
does the candidate have to be groomed and whatnot?

01:06:06.400 --> 01:06:08.119
Maybe there's like, you know, we can fast track

01:06:08.119 --> 01:06:09.739
that. We'll build the shell, you hop in the shell.

01:06:10.219 --> 01:06:12.739
There's nothing in it. So it's unoccupied and

01:06:12.739 --> 01:06:16.039
therefore can be unsold via a fallen thing. Yeah.

01:06:16.079 --> 01:06:18.019
So that would be the next category I'd be open

01:06:18.019 --> 01:06:21.440
to. Okay. The very least, the one that it would

01:06:21.440 --> 01:06:25.059
take something that I cannot foresee for me to

01:06:25.059 --> 01:06:28.960
embrace is the idea that this is a evolved life

01:06:28.960 --> 01:06:33.119
form from a vast distance away that is. invaded

01:06:33.119 --> 01:06:35.039
our space and overturns all the categories of

01:06:35.039 --> 01:06:38.400
scripture. I just cannot foresee anything that

01:06:38.400 --> 01:06:39.880
would make me go, oh yeah, that's probably what's

01:06:39.880 --> 01:06:45.860
going on. Yeah, I can't either. So this is what

01:06:45.860 --> 01:06:48.960
we talked about, be ready by knowing your Bible,

01:06:49.360 --> 01:06:52.340
being prepared to have a category in your mind

01:06:52.340 --> 01:06:54.340
for there being spiritual warfare, spiritual

01:06:54.340 --> 01:06:57.300
things you don't necessarily understand in the

01:06:57.300 --> 01:06:59.260
traditional sense that we physically understand

01:06:59.260 --> 01:07:02.860
our world. These things these kinds of things

01:07:02.860 --> 01:07:05.460
are in existence angels demons things of that

01:07:05.460 --> 01:07:11.059
sort now we're asking pastorally You're giving

01:07:11.059 --> 01:07:13.960
them kind of your theories on what we're looking

01:07:13.960 --> 01:07:16.440
at here Yeah run that's gonna fit into the first

01:07:16.440 --> 01:07:18.159
one where it's like this is most likely a fallen

01:07:18.159 --> 01:07:21.860
angel or the activities of fallen angels Yeah,

01:07:21.860 --> 01:07:23.719
I mean, how would you know if if an angel shows

01:07:23.719 --> 01:07:25.840
up saying it's an alien, right? You know, it's

01:07:25.840 --> 01:07:27.760
lying. Sure. Therefore, you know, it's fallen,

01:07:27.760 --> 01:07:31.530
right? Jason did that does that get to your tinfoil

01:07:31.530 --> 01:07:32.750
hat stuff there? Was there more you're gonna

01:07:32.750 --> 01:07:35.610
add on that? No, no, no, that's that's my tinfoil

01:07:35.610 --> 01:07:38.750
sombrero Yeah, so leading into this, you know

01:07:38.750 --> 01:07:40.730
where the rumors are going around that this this

01:07:40.730 --> 01:07:43.130
summer We may have some kind of disclosure of

01:07:43.130 --> 01:07:46.269
something What are your plans and you know, I'm

01:07:46.269 --> 01:07:48.110
not nailing you down to any specifics Like I'm

01:07:48.110 --> 01:07:49.829
not gonna come ask you why you didn't do it this

01:07:49.829 --> 01:07:52.730
way or that way But what are your plans on helping

01:07:52.730 --> 01:07:56.380
people? I mean, this podcast aside, get prepared

01:07:56.380 --> 01:07:58.480
for that there may be some weird stuff that the

01:07:58.480 --> 01:08:00.380
government wants to show us, or not. I mean,

01:08:00.400 --> 01:08:02.559
it could be a nothing burger, but what if they

01:08:02.559 --> 01:08:04.239
do come out with something that seems convincing,

01:08:04.340 --> 01:08:08.659
and how do we get people ready for that? It may

01:08:08.659 --> 01:08:11.420
shake them a little bit. Well, this podcast is

01:08:11.420 --> 01:08:14.199
one of those. That's part of the background on

01:08:14.199 --> 01:08:15.539
why I wanted to talk about with you. You know,

01:08:15.599 --> 01:08:17.340
our church people listen to this, we put it on

01:08:17.340 --> 01:08:20.850
the interwebs. Jared Moore, who's been on before,

01:08:21.149 --> 01:08:22.989
just got done kind of taking a Sunday night and

01:08:22.989 --> 01:08:24.649
walking his church through some of this. Jason

01:08:24.649 --> 01:08:27.130
said he could... And that was by popular demand,

01:08:27.210 --> 01:08:28.970
if I remember. I think his church had asked him

01:08:28.970 --> 01:08:30.649
a little bit about it, seen this kind of things

01:08:30.649 --> 01:08:32.590
in the news, and were like, how do we prepare

01:08:32.590 --> 01:08:34.890
to think about this? Because there's no telling

01:08:34.890 --> 01:08:36.970
what they're going to say. How do we prepare?

01:08:37.170 --> 01:08:39.989
Yep. So that tells me Christians are curious.

01:08:40.210 --> 01:08:43.789
And I've always sort of taken the idea that the

01:08:43.789 --> 01:08:46.659
leader, be that a father, husband, churchman,

01:08:47.020 --> 01:08:48.699
you want to be the first voice at the table.

01:08:48.819 --> 01:08:52.260
You want everybody else reacting to you. And

01:08:52.260 --> 01:08:54.460
so, I want to be an early voice at the table

01:08:54.460 --> 01:08:57.199
on this stuff. Jared's actually in Oklahoma preaching

01:08:57.199 --> 01:08:59.359
a series of meetings for a church and a school

01:08:59.359 --> 01:09:01.020
down there, but when he comes back, he wants

01:09:01.020 --> 01:09:03.979
me to be on his podcast to talk about it. What

01:09:03.979 --> 01:09:06.199
we would probably do at our church is I'll have

01:09:06.199 --> 01:09:09.359
a town hall meeting and we'll get together and

01:09:09.359 --> 01:09:11.000
compare notes. I hope by then most of the people

01:09:11.000 --> 01:09:13.479
who are engaged with new media have heard this,

01:09:13.479 --> 01:09:16.439
this literal episode. But we've been through

01:09:16.439 --> 01:09:18.359
Genesis fairly recently and talked about quite

01:09:18.359 --> 01:09:20.960
a bit of this. We talk regularly about the sufficiency

01:09:20.960 --> 01:09:23.659
of Scripture. We would probably just get together

01:09:23.659 --> 01:09:25.899
in a room and say, I'm going to give you the

01:09:25.899 --> 01:09:28.560
broad strokes, then y 'all do Q &A, and we'll

01:09:28.560 --> 01:09:32.060
work through this as a church body. That's good

01:09:32.060 --> 01:09:36.279
pastoral advice, I think. So, you know, we reference

01:09:36.279 --> 01:09:38.739
blurry creatures, we reference taunt and cosmos.

01:09:38.859 --> 01:09:40.439
Do you think those are helpful resources for

01:09:40.439 --> 01:09:42.920
people? I mean, we're not paid by those guys

01:09:42.920 --> 01:09:45.920
or anything. They're helpful for mature Christians.

01:09:46.000 --> 01:09:51.100
Okay. Definitely. I would caution if you are

01:09:51.100 --> 01:09:55.340
very skeptical of Christian theology. Maybe not

01:09:55.340 --> 01:09:57.100
the best place to start. It wouldn't be the best

01:09:57.100 --> 01:09:59.600
place to start, in my opinion. Okay. But who

01:09:59.600 --> 01:10:04.479
knows? I mean, God's used glory creatures to

01:10:04.479 --> 01:10:08.489
bring a lot of people to Christ also. So, I would

01:10:08.489 --> 01:10:10.430
parse that probably with Haunted Cosmos better

01:10:10.430 --> 01:10:13.409
than Blurry. I think the guys who are the hosts

01:10:13.409 --> 01:10:16.569
there are better discipled. I like the Blurry

01:10:16.569 --> 01:10:20.310
Creatures guys, but they kind of backended into

01:10:20.310 --> 01:10:22.829
this that didn't come through like a church tradition.

01:10:23.250 --> 01:10:25.989
And they regularly say things like, well, the

01:10:25.989 --> 01:10:27.970
church is not talking about this or the church

01:10:27.970 --> 01:10:29.850
is just saying about this. And I'm like, well,

01:10:30.140 --> 01:10:32.460
That's not true. Y 'all love Michael Heiser.

01:10:32.699 --> 01:10:34.779
You're like, nobody listen to Heiser. He worked

01:10:34.779 --> 01:10:38.380
for Logos. I mean, every pastor in America aspires

01:10:38.380 --> 01:10:41.119
to, if they can mortgage their house, to have

01:10:41.119 --> 01:10:43.779
the full Logos suite. You know what I mean? I

01:10:43.779 --> 01:10:45.699
just think they have too low a view of the church.

01:10:46.640 --> 01:10:48.920
And by the church, I mean like the people who

01:10:48.920 --> 01:10:52.739
show up on a Sunday and they, every Sunday, and

01:10:52.739 --> 01:10:54.380
they try to read their Bible and live in light

01:10:54.380 --> 01:10:56.380
of what they read there. Now, what kind of, I

01:10:56.380 --> 01:10:57.920
don't know if you know this, but what faith tradition

01:10:57.920 --> 01:11:01.479
will they claim? They're evangelical. Okay. Yeah.

01:11:01.479 --> 01:11:03.960
Yeah. Yeah. That's tricky because evangelicals

01:11:03.960 --> 01:11:05.619
don't, I mean, it's not like the papacy where

01:11:05.619 --> 01:11:08.260
you've got one guy who hands down his opinion

01:11:08.260 --> 01:11:10.159
and that's what the church is talking about,

01:11:10.300 --> 01:11:13.520
quote unquote. So. Well, they talk about spiritual

01:11:13.520 --> 01:11:18.199
things and, but they talk about it from a very

01:11:18.199 --> 01:11:20.920
outside perspective, outside of the church perspective.

01:11:20.920 --> 01:11:24.260
Okay. So they entertain folks that don't necessarily

01:11:24.260 --> 01:11:27.199
line up with the church. Yeah. And that's the

01:11:27.199 --> 01:11:29.619
only. reason that I think it's a little bit dangerous

01:11:29.619 --> 01:11:31.939
sometimes, if you're not grounded. If you're

01:11:31.939 --> 01:11:34.000
a grounded Christian, I mean, you can see past

01:11:34.000 --> 01:11:37.579
all that stuff, and it actually helps you understand

01:11:37.579 --> 01:11:40.720
others' viewpoints by listening to what they're

01:11:40.720 --> 01:11:43.180
saying. Yeah, and I appreciate the way you're

01:11:43.180 --> 01:11:46.199
framing that, Jason. I like, you know, I don't

01:11:46.199 --> 01:11:48.060
have a relationship with them. I don't either.

01:11:48.199 --> 01:11:50.539
But I just sort of enjoy, like, they seem like

01:11:50.539 --> 01:11:52.779
good dudes, and they seem like the kind of guys

01:11:52.779 --> 01:11:57.020
I'm rooting for. But The nature of their show

01:11:57.020 --> 01:12:03.340
is the guest comes on, makes a claim, and just

01:12:03.340 --> 01:12:04.720
by the nature of their show, they can't be like,

01:12:04.720 --> 01:12:07.640
that's ridiculous. What are you talking about?

01:12:07.680 --> 01:12:10.640
Get out of here. So you'll get this spectrum

01:12:10.640 --> 01:12:13.500
of ideas, some that are very consistent with

01:12:13.500 --> 01:12:15.979
the Christian worldview, some that are just off

01:12:15.979 --> 01:12:19.039
the reservation. And I can illustrate that with

01:12:19.039 --> 01:12:21.140
their recent stuff. They brought on N .T. Wright.

01:12:21.920 --> 01:12:24.439
who wrote a really great book on the resurrection

01:12:24.439 --> 01:12:27.779
of the Son of God. Then he introduced what is

01:12:27.779 --> 01:12:30.600
called The New Perspectives on Paul, and it was

01:12:30.600 --> 01:12:33.560
a catastrophe. It's a complete failure to understand

01:12:33.560 --> 01:12:36.960
the ABCs of the gospel. But they brought him

01:12:36.960 --> 01:12:40.439
on, and he's there talking. Well, I don't know

01:12:40.439 --> 01:12:42.199
what he has to say about the woo stuff. I actually

01:12:42.199 --> 01:12:44.420
didn't listen to that one because NT Wright doesn't

01:12:44.420 --> 01:12:47.220
interest me. But that's the kind of guy who comes

01:12:47.220 --> 01:12:49.659
on and makes claims, and I'm like, he just doesn't

01:12:49.659 --> 01:12:52.149
have the credibility. They're big enough now

01:12:52.149 --> 01:12:55.069
that they're getting celebrities. Dusty Slay

01:12:55.069 --> 01:12:59.310
apparently was on recently. That's great. That's

01:12:59.310 --> 01:13:02.869
great for what they want to be doing and probably

01:13:02.869 --> 01:13:04.329
their business model, although I don't think

01:13:04.329 --> 01:13:06.270
they're grifters or trying to get rich. Sure.

01:13:06.310 --> 01:13:07.510
I mean, they want to make a living. They want

01:13:07.510 --> 01:13:08.930
to make a living. I don't hate that. Right. And

01:13:08.930 --> 01:13:10.210
they ought to be able to make a living from their

01:13:10.210 --> 01:13:14.350
work. But it's that nature of the show to treat

01:13:14.350 --> 01:13:17.510
every guest with equal credibility that I think

01:13:17.510 --> 01:13:22.649
sometimes hooks them into ideas that They just

01:13:22.649 --> 01:13:24.789
shouldn't be. They're less credible and they

01:13:24.789 --> 01:13:26.609
should probably be treated less credibly. Yeah.

01:13:26.609 --> 01:13:29.329
Okay. And it's led them into stuff where on their

01:13:29.329 --> 01:13:31.649
social media, they're like, no, it's not just

01:13:31.649 --> 01:13:33.949
angels and demons. That's dumb. Yeah. And I'm

01:13:33.949 --> 01:13:35.829
like, I don't actually think the voice of the

01:13:35.829 --> 01:13:39.750
church for 2000 years is dumb. Yeah. There's

01:13:39.750 --> 01:13:42.470
a guy named Timothy Alberino that is pretty speculative

01:13:42.470 --> 01:13:43.989
that they're big fans of. He's been on there

01:13:43.989 --> 01:13:46.470
a lot. They're good friends. He gets into some

01:13:46.470 --> 01:13:48.489
of this stuff and I'm like, Tim, man, just hit

01:13:48.489 --> 01:13:52.000
the brakes, dude. Yeah. So, I wish they had a

01:13:52.000 --> 01:13:55.180
little bit more of a breaking mechanism. I do

01:13:55.180 --> 01:13:56.840
think they're good dudes. I think they love the

01:13:56.840 --> 01:14:00.380
Lord. I think the nature of their show leaves

01:14:00.380 --> 01:14:02.560
them open to certain things that Haunted Cosmos,

01:14:02.560 --> 01:14:04.899
coming from a confessional tradition and whatnot,

01:14:06.819 --> 01:14:09.199
they're just not subject to the same liabilities.

01:14:09.699 --> 01:14:12.760
Yeah. And Haunted Cosmos, I don't want to just

01:14:12.760 --> 01:14:16.420
leave them in a totally pure white light either.

01:14:16.699 --> 01:14:19.289
They tell stories that are Some are just really

01:14:19.289 --> 01:14:22.170
strange. And you have to look at it through a

01:14:22.170 --> 01:14:24.970
grounded Christian perspective, the same with

01:14:24.970 --> 01:14:27.670
them. But I agree with you. I think they are

01:14:27.670 --> 01:14:31.449
more solid with the foundation that they're approaching

01:14:31.449 --> 01:14:35.189
it with. Sure. I mean, I listen to both. I do

01:14:35.189 --> 01:14:37.170
too. I regularly talk with our church members

01:14:37.170 --> 01:14:40.609
who listen to both, and I think this is well

01:14:40.609 --> 01:14:43.380
within reasonable Christian freedom. Okay. Let

01:14:43.380 --> 01:14:45.279
me ask another question. I actually got two more

01:14:45.279 --> 01:14:46.699
questions. I don't know how much time we have.

01:14:46.819 --> 01:14:48.460
We'll see. We'll see how long the first one takes.

01:14:48.979 --> 01:14:51.560
The first question is, what do you think it is

01:14:51.560 --> 01:14:55.300
it's fueling the sudden increase in interest

01:14:55.300 --> 01:14:59.699
among Christians for things like what they talk

01:14:59.699 --> 01:15:02.739
about on Haunted Cosmos, cryptids, missing persons,

01:15:03.140 --> 01:15:07.439
demons and angels, ghosts, this sort of supernatural

01:15:07.439 --> 01:15:10.060
elements. And like, why is this now suddenly

01:15:10.060 --> 01:15:13.979
not taboo? Why are we why why do we are we apparently

01:15:13.979 --> 01:15:17.039
leaving behind like enlightenment empiricism

01:15:17.039 --> 01:15:21.380
and kind of embracing? This immaterial world

01:15:21.380 --> 01:15:23.579
more. I mean, I think you just set up part of

01:15:23.579 --> 01:15:25.239
it, but Jason will run at that first I've got

01:15:25.239 --> 01:15:28.520
some thoughts um the way I would describe that

01:15:28.520 --> 01:15:33.520
is I think evil is Got a much larger presence

01:15:33.520 --> 01:15:37.720
as far as witchcraft and as far as Satanic worship

01:15:37.720 --> 01:15:42.289
the spirituality side of the darkness has really

01:15:42.289 --> 01:15:44.829
flourished and I think you're seeing a version

01:15:44.829 --> 01:15:48.789
of that that we haven't seen before. And I think

01:15:48.789 --> 01:15:51.489
every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

01:15:51.850 --> 01:15:55.470
So I think you're seeing an awareness of the

01:15:55.470 --> 01:15:59.529
spiritual things within Christianity. And you're

01:15:59.529 --> 01:16:03.010
just seeing all this come to light that has just

01:16:03.010 --> 01:16:05.069
been ignored for so long because it can't be

01:16:05.069 --> 01:16:09.409
ignored anymore. Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree

01:16:09.409 --> 01:16:11.550
with that. I think you already set it up. The

01:16:11.550 --> 01:16:13.609
Enlightenment project is breaking down. Okay.

01:16:14.489 --> 01:16:16.630
And for a couple different reasons. So there's

01:16:16.630 --> 01:16:19.149
kind of a pie chart answer to this. Real quick,

01:16:19.210 --> 01:16:21.390
let's talk about that Enlightenment thing just

01:16:21.390 --> 01:16:25.289
briefly. So the Enlightenment shows up 1700s,

01:16:25.369 --> 01:16:29.289
late 1600s, post Renaissance. Mankind began to

01:16:29.289 --> 01:16:32.109
struggle with what we would call epistemology,

01:16:32.149 --> 01:16:34.510
which is just a branch of philosophy that's concerned

01:16:34.510 --> 01:16:36.430
with the question of how do you know what you

01:16:36.430 --> 01:16:39.470
know? How do you know what is true? And the question,

01:16:39.829 --> 01:16:42.029
they were no longer satisfied with, well, the

01:16:42.029 --> 01:16:45.270
scripture says it's true. So, we need to be able

01:16:45.270 --> 01:16:48.229
to run diagnostic tests that can be measured.

01:16:48.970 --> 01:16:52.390
And so, this is sort of the advent of science

01:16:52.390 --> 01:16:56.329
as deity. Materialism. Yeah. And we saw, probably

01:16:56.329 --> 01:16:59.649
in recent times, the most clear example of this

01:16:59.649 --> 01:17:03.060
was COVID. Where everybody just appealed straight

01:17:03.060 --> 01:17:05.420
to well that the science says the science says

01:17:05.420 --> 01:17:08.720
they said it like it was a religious mantra yeah,

01:17:09.380 --> 01:17:12.039
and And and maybe that's part of the answer to

01:17:12.039 --> 01:17:14.859
this question is like we've seen science fail

01:17:14.859 --> 01:17:18.420
and we've seen Allegedly, you know this impeccable

01:17:18.420 --> 01:17:20.359
science which is supposed to have all the answers

01:17:20.359 --> 01:17:22.460
and lead us into the golden age Yeah, and it

01:17:22.460 --> 01:17:24.460
has not done that and in many cases it has led

01:17:24.460 --> 01:17:28.199
us into bad things and failures and science keeps

01:17:28.199 --> 01:17:31.060
changing which is its nature because we're uncovering

01:17:31.060 --> 01:17:33.300
truth So that's what we mean by enlightenment

01:17:33.300 --> 01:17:36.460
empiricism, but go ahead. Yeah, so that dominated

01:17:36.460 --> 01:17:40.380
the West for too long. I think There's quite

01:17:40.380 --> 01:17:43.800
a bit going on there, but the first actual I

01:17:43.800 --> 01:17:45.819
think basically came up with people being like,

01:17:45.819 --> 01:17:49.460
you can't live this way. It takes away any kind

01:17:49.460 --> 01:17:52.479
of meaning. It takes away the ability to say

01:17:52.479 --> 01:17:57.840
my relationship as a parent to my child is beyond

01:17:57.840 --> 01:18:02.220
mere genetic reproduction. People can't live

01:18:02.220 --> 01:18:04.640
under that. And so there was this thirst for

01:18:04.640 --> 01:18:07.239
something else. We then live in an increasingly

01:18:07.239 --> 01:18:09.859
globalized world. There's lots of competing religious

01:18:09.859 --> 01:18:12.159
claims. like what you're talking about, the rise

01:18:12.159 --> 01:18:15.359
of the new age, these things are around. And

01:18:15.359 --> 01:18:17.279
so, people are casting about for an alternative.

01:18:17.939 --> 01:18:21.579
They're connecting with something. You know,

01:18:21.579 --> 01:18:24.659
I think that false gods of the other religions

01:18:24.659 --> 01:18:28.979
are demons. And so, I believe there's a substance

01:18:28.979 --> 01:18:31.739
to the thing, right? Like dumb idols are dumb

01:18:31.739 --> 01:18:35.390
idols. The idol itself cannot see, but that does

01:18:35.390 --> 01:18:37.729
not mean there's not an intelligence behind that

01:18:37.729 --> 01:18:40.409
idol that's using it to manipulate people. So

01:18:40.409 --> 01:18:42.489
they're taking ayahuasca and they're meeting

01:18:42.489 --> 01:18:45.909
intelligences in those realms. They're practicing

01:18:45.909 --> 01:18:48.869
black magic and seeing good returns on their

01:18:48.869 --> 01:18:53.289
efforts to get wealthy or whatever. And eventually

01:18:53.289 --> 01:19:00.479
the dehumanization of materialism and the ready

01:19:00.479 --> 01:19:02.699
availability of the supernatural to interact

01:19:02.699 --> 01:19:05.819
with those who want to. I think basically broke

01:19:05.819 --> 01:19:09.300
those things down. Okay. So, and as a result

01:19:09.300 --> 01:19:11.399
of this, because we're seeing it in the world,

01:19:11.420 --> 01:19:13.819
Christians are now asking these questions. Yeah,

01:19:13.819 --> 01:19:15.899
there's the evangelical slice of the pie chart

01:19:15.899 --> 01:19:18.239
there. Right. Evangelicals tend to talk about

01:19:18.239 --> 01:19:22.579
the supernatural strictly on what the Bible explicitly

01:19:22.579 --> 01:19:26.500
says. Or if you're charismatic in ways that are

01:19:26.500 --> 01:19:28.920
in those categories, but kind of emotionally

01:19:28.920 --> 01:19:32.859
and experientially go beyond them. It is true

01:19:32.859 --> 01:19:37.119
that we have better communication with our global

01:19:37.119 --> 01:19:40.210
neighbors than ever before. I grew up reading

01:19:40.210 --> 01:19:43.229
books about UFOs and Bigfoot and all that stuff.

01:19:43.789 --> 01:19:46.449
Now you're meeting people, quote unquote, meeting

01:19:46.449 --> 01:19:48.670
them online who are claiming those experiences.

01:19:50.130 --> 01:19:52.109
As those things heap up, if you have some sort

01:19:52.109 --> 01:19:57.270
of interest in an exploratory or adventurer.

01:19:57.289 --> 01:20:01.229
Even just a mild curiosity. You've never had

01:20:01.229 --> 01:20:03.189
more resources to say, oh, I bet there's something

01:20:03.189 --> 01:20:06.470
there, there. All right, that kind of actually

01:20:06.470 --> 01:20:09.909
leads into the next question, which is how would

01:20:09.909 --> 01:20:12.729
you counsel someone very interested in this topic

01:20:12.729 --> 01:20:16.649
on what kind of protections should they have

01:20:16.649 --> 01:20:18.569
to keep them from going too far down this rabbit

01:20:18.569 --> 01:20:23.250
hole? Or is that the, can you overdo this? How

01:20:23.250 --> 01:20:25.109
much should Christians be trying to learn about

01:20:25.109 --> 01:20:27.970
this realm? Where are the limits? Where are the

01:20:27.970 --> 01:20:31.569
dangers in the sort of investigative side of

01:20:31.569 --> 01:20:34.449
this? That's a great question. You want to make

01:20:34.449 --> 01:20:37.090
a run at that, Joseph? I think we're cautioned

01:20:37.090 --> 01:20:40.329
in the Bible. Paul cautions us, I think, about

01:20:40.329 --> 01:20:44.710
all this stuff. And I think this world is so

01:20:44.710 --> 01:20:47.770
complex, and there are so many things that we

01:20:47.770 --> 01:20:50.869
are not going to completely understand this side

01:20:50.869 --> 01:20:57.369
of heaven. I think the stars are a map to most

01:20:57.369 --> 01:20:59.449
of this stuff that we just can't understand.

01:21:00.159 --> 01:21:04.579
I mean, Lewis is very open to that idea. I just

01:21:04.579 --> 01:21:08.100
don't think that we have the mental capacity

01:21:08.100 --> 01:21:12.699
nor the history to understand it. But I think

01:21:12.699 --> 01:21:17.340
it's all laid out before us. There are entities

01:21:17.340 --> 01:21:21.899
working against us and for us that this side

01:21:21.899 --> 01:21:25.779
of heaven we will never see. I have just, I have

01:21:25.779 --> 01:21:30.199
resolved in my heart that God has got this, God

01:21:30.199 --> 01:21:32.399
is bigger than me, and I'm just going to seek

01:21:32.399 --> 01:21:37.939
after Jesus. And that has to be my main goal.

01:21:38.479 --> 01:21:42.260
That has to be my true north. And I always have

01:21:42.260 --> 01:21:45.439
to take Jesus into consideration with anything

01:21:45.439 --> 01:21:50.500
that I'm thinking of. If this theory clouds Jesus

01:21:50.500 --> 01:21:54.619
or demeans Jesus or takes Jesus out of the center

01:21:54.619 --> 01:21:58.520
of the story, I don't pay it any attention. Okay.

01:21:59.640 --> 01:22:03.460
That's the way I've dealt with all this. You

01:22:03.460 --> 01:22:07.260
have to be centered on the gospel, and you have

01:22:07.260 --> 01:22:11.720
to be truly thinking of what God has done for

01:22:11.720 --> 01:22:17.100
us and blessed us with. To me, it just goes so

01:22:17.100 --> 01:22:19.560
much deeper than our minds can even realize.

01:22:20.939 --> 01:22:25.470
And I'm okay with the fact that I'm dumb. You

01:22:25.470 --> 01:22:27.930
don't need to know everything, right? Literally.

01:22:28.229 --> 01:22:31.010
I mean, I have to be okay with the fact that

01:22:31.010 --> 01:22:35.930
I'm dumb. You're not dumb. No one can comprehend

01:22:35.930 --> 01:22:39.149
all things except for the Lord, right? And everybody's

01:22:39.149 --> 01:22:40.930
going to be necessarily specialized in some way.

01:22:41.869 --> 01:22:43.369
So I think I'm going to say some of the same

01:22:43.369 --> 01:22:45.350
stuff Jason did from a little bit different angle,

01:22:45.470 --> 01:22:49.350
but it's the similar in spirit and form principles

01:22:49.350 --> 01:22:51.149
we already talked about. Jesus Christ is Lord

01:22:51.149 --> 01:22:53.939
of everything. Right. So that's the first thing

01:22:53.939 --> 01:22:55.960
you keep in mind. The Lord of the Bigfoots and

01:22:55.960 --> 01:22:58.760
the Mothman and the aliens. And Satan. They will

01:22:58.760 --> 01:23:02.520
bow. Satan is Jesus' Satan. He's Lord of all

01:23:02.520 --> 01:23:06.979
of it. Two, he's a perfect communicator. And

01:23:06.979 --> 01:23:09.500
so his word is perfect to us. It's sufficient.

01:23:09.579 --> 01:23:11.960
It's understandable. You know, all the things

01:23:11.960 --> 01:23:14.640
we've affirmed here. So those are the two tent

01:23:14.640 --> 01:23:19.279
poles on any field of inquiry. Where does the

01:23:19.279 --> 01:23:22.250
kind of woo stuff enter in? Well, it enters in

01:23:22.250 --> 01:23:23.869
first because we're supposed to be students of

01:23:23.869 --> 01:23:27.729
the Bible. Okay. And you read the Bible according

01:23:27.729 --> 01:23:30.189
to the intention of the author who wrote it.

01:23:30.789 --> 01:23:33.409
The Bible has, in a sense, two authors, the Spirit

01:23:33.409 --> 01:23:36.270
of God and the human author. They both intended

01:23:36.270 --> 01:23:39.409
to communicate something. Your job as a student

01:23:39.409 --> 01:23:41.369
is to say, what were they trying to communicate?

01:23:41.869 --> 01:23:45.310
Right. And that also becomes your kind of guiding

01:23:45.310 --> 01:23:47.930
light on studying every topic that comes up.

01:23:48.220 --> 01:23:52.100
The Bible mostly wants to talk about Jesus, His

01:23:52.100 --> 01:23:56.000
glory, the salvation He alone offers, His control

01:23:56.000 --> 01:23:59.760
over all things. It gives most of its time to

01:23:59.760 --> 01:24:04.060
that. From time to time, it raises things like

01:24:04.060 --> 01:24:08.199
the Nephilim or Satan and the archangel arguing

01:24:08.199 --> 01:24:10.380
over the body of Moses. You want to give that

01:24:10.380 --> 01:24:13.239
as much attention as it's proportionately tended

01:24:13.239 --> 01:24:17.130
to in the text. ask your questions in choir,

01:24:17.229 --> 01:24:19.050
figure it out, but it fits within the framework

01:24:19.050 --> 01:24:22.210
of the bold themes. And then there's also the

01:24:22.210 --> 01:24:24.710
encouragement from Paul who says, of Satan, we're

01:24:24.710 --> 01:24:27.789
not unaware of his schemes. And so I think that's

01:24:27.789 --> 01:24:29.750
one of the diagnostic questions is you're trying

01:24:29.750 --> 01:24:32.789
to make application of the text. You can't become

01:24:32.789 --> 01:24:37.609
fascinated by that stuff. It'd be pointless to

01:24:37.609 --> 01:24:41.550
study the loser. But in the same imagery of Scripture,

01:24:41.789 --> 01:24:44.770
there is a lion walking around who wants to devour.

01:24:45.170 --> 01:24:47.550
Maybe let's figure out what his patterns are.

01:24:48.550 --> 01:24:50.710
So we don't want to be unaware of his schemes.

01:24:51.609 --> 01:24:54.869
We have to be fascinated by the glory of Christ.

01:24:55.750 --> 01:24:57.909
And within that fascination, it's okay to spend

01:24:57.909 --> 01:24:59.989
a little time going, what's the bad guy up to?

01:25:00.550 --> 01:25:02.670
Yeah, sure. Well, I mean, to use the lion illusion,

01:25:02.890 --> 01:25:05.069
there's a really great book and there's a movie

01:25:05.069 --> 01:25:07.159
made out of it. called The Ghost in the Darkness.

01:25:07.319 --> 01:25:10.739
The book is called The Maneaters of Sabo. And

01:25:10.739 --> 01:25:12.800
they're dealing with man -eating lions that are

01:25:12.800 --> 01:25:16.739
invading the camp in Africa. And so they are

01:25:16.739 --> 01:25:20.979
building defenses to keep them out. And it goes

01:25:20.979 --> 01:25:23.300
unsaid because it's kind of just a subtext, but

01:25:23.300 --> 01:25:25.539
the way that they choose to build their defenses

01:25:25.539 --> 01:25:27.579
and how they try to protect themselves from the

01:25:27.579 --> 01:25:32.100
lions assumes knowledge of lion physiology, lion

01:25:32.100 --> 01:25:35.359
eating habits, lion movement patterns, like in

01:25:35.359 --> 01:25:37.039
other words, they know the enemy well enough

01:25:37.039 --> 01:25:40.840
to make a countermeasure. And, you know, that's

01:25:40.840 --> 01:25:43.100
just true in lots of stuff. You know, if you

01:25:43.100 --> 01:25:45.199
want to keep ants out of your house, you have

01:25:45.199 --> 01:25:47.579
to know a little bit about ants. What's an ant

01:25:47.579 --> 01:25:49.420
after? Yeah, if you want to win a war, you have

01:25:49.420 --> 01:25:51.699
to know a little bit about the other side and

01:25:51.699 --> 01:25:55.119
what they're doing. And so, you know, we ultimately

01:25:55.119 --> 01:25:57.180
aren't the ones who will defeat Satan. That's

01:25:57.180 --> 01:26:01.149
up to Jesus to do, but If you take the term church

01:26:01.149 --> 01:26:03.989
militant literally, you have to know what the

01:26:03.989 --> 01:26:07.689
enemy is up to in some sense. Or you're blindsided

01:26:07.689 --> 01:26:09.689
by things like the government coming out and

01:26:09.689 --> 01:26:12.130
saying, well, we have an alien in a safe somewhere.

01:26:12.930 --> 01:26:14.770
We play checkers with them every Thursday or

01:26:14.770 --> 01:26:18.989
whatever they're going to say. If you don't have

01:26:18.989 --> 01:26:20.750
a category in your mind for the fact that the

01:26:20.750 --> 01:26:22.989
enemy is a deceiver and may try to do something

01:26:22.989 --> 01:26:25.210
like this, that might catch you off guard. It

01:26:25.210 --> 01:26:28.310
might shake your faith. I think what we're trying

01:26:28.310 --> 01:26:32.010
to articulate is that it shouldn't. Absolutely.

01:26:32.630 --> 01:26:34.890
It ought to go like, oh yeah, maybe I didn't

01:26:34.890 --> 01:26:37.869
see that happening this Tuesday, but I've got

01:26:37.869 --> 01:26:41.109
categories for that. Yeah. And most important

01:26:41.109 --> 01:26:43.430
of all, the foundation of it is that Jesus Christ

01:26:43.430 --> 01:26:46.449
is still Lord. And whatever they've gotten a

01:26:46.449 --> 01:26:47.909
safe that they play checkers with, He's Lord

01:26:47.909 --> 01:26:49.770
of that too. That's going to be a great diagnostic

01:26:49.770 --> 01:26:52.409
for whatever they could potentially trot at anyway.

01:26:52.550 --> 01:26:55.380
Yeah. Okay, okay, okay. You're some advanced

01:26:55.380 --> 01:26:57.300
life form. What do you have to say about Jesus?

01:26:57.539 --> 01:27:00.119
Sure. Right? Yeah, I mean, there's jokes online

01:27:00.119 --> 01:27:01.920
about that, right? Like when the aliens show

01:27:01.920 --> 01:27:03.720
up, you make them say, Christ is Lord, and if

01:27:03.720 --> 01:27:05.880
they don't, then you call in the space marines

01:27:05.880 --> 01:27:09.399
and eradicate them, you know? The space force.

01:27:09.720 --> 01:27:11.460
Yeah, that's why Trump made the space force.

01:27:11.720 --> 01:27:14.600
They've been planning this all along. If they

01:27:14.600 --> 01:27:16.979
come in with kind of the hippie -dippie, redefine

01:27:16.979 --> 01:27:20.170
Jesus as the spirit of love. Yeah. or they're,

01:27:20.270 --> 01:27:22.189
hey, you've got to get past this primitive religion,

01:27:22.449 --> 01:27:25.489
particularly Christianity. Cool man, not even

01:27:25.489 --> 01:27:28.989
a thean facade. One of the ones you sometimes

01:27:28.989 --> 01:27:31.529
hear is that Jesus is an alien, and that's why

01:27:31.529 --> 01:27:33.649
he was able to do miracles and things like that,

01:27:33.670 --> 01:27:35.289
which is not, you know, this is not something

01:27:35.289 --> 01:27:37.189
that's going to confuse most Christians. That's

01:27:37.189 --> 01:27:39.989
kind of out there, but I mean, you know, if they

01:27:39.989 --> 01:27:42.289
show up physically here and then start saying

01:27:42.289 --> 01:27:45.630
stuff, then that will lend credibility to even

01:27:45.630 --> 01:27:48.510
the most cockamamie theories. So Christians just

01:27:48.510 --> 01:27:50.489
have to know what a cockamamie theory is and

01:27:50.489 --> 01:27:54.090
not be tricked into buying into it. Yeah, I think

01:27:54.090 --> 01:27:57.369
the paradigm, I think we all just have the confidence

01:27:57.369 --> 01:28:01.329
to approach it as if, again, we kind of know

01:28:01.329 --> 01:28:04.729
how to engage life because of the Bible. If some

01:28:04.729 --> 01:28:07.510
guy you've never seen, maybe he's strange looking,

01:28:08.310 --> 01:28:11.229
shows up at your door and wants to tell you about

01:28:11.229 --> 01:28:14.500
who Jesus is. And it turns out that he's some

01:28:14.500 --> 01:28:17.819
great teacher who was misunderstood by the church

01:28:17.819 --> 01:28:20.899
and this guy's got the real secret to Jesus or

01:28:20.899 --> 01:28:25.000
whatever. You're going to be like, okay, I don't

01:28:25.000 --> 01:28:27.579
really have time for this. Could you just shuffle

01:28:27.579 --> 01:28:32.079
along? Right? Well, if it's some huge odd alien

01:28:32.079 --> 01:28:35.020
saying the same thing, it's pretty much the same

01:28:35.020 --> 01:28:37.000
paradigm. Yeah. You can get off my property.

01:28:37.239 --> 01:28:40.100
Cool. Not worth my time. Not a friend. Just bounce,

01:28:40.239 --> 01:28:44.880
man. You know, call the space marines. Yes, definitely.

01:28:45.859 --> 01:28:47.539
Definitely call the space marines. Put them on

01:28:47.539 --> 01:28:50.659
speed dial. I want us standing over an alien

01:28:50.659 --> 01:28:53.899
drone body, investigating it as like the space

01:28:53.899 --> 01:28:56.500
force backups, you know, and you get to put your

01:28:56.500 --> 01:28:59.039
hand on the body and say, it's afraid. Oh yeah,

01:28:59.319 --> 01:29:02.359
like starship troopers. Yeah. We wrote Bibles

01:29:02.359 --> 01:29:04.979
and we're praying and you touch the creature

01:29:04.979 --> 01:29:09.470
and go, it's terrified. Yeah. All right. That's

01:29:09.470 --> 01:29:12.090
about it, man. Yeah, that's all my questions.

01:29:12.270 --> 01:29:15.729
We can put our bearskin gloves on and beat the

01:29:15.729 --> 01:29:18.409
trash out of the drone body of a blind spirit.

01:29:19.029 --> 01:29:20.529
They've stood up to every other test I've put

01:29:20.529 --> 01:29:22.569
them under. I have not tried fist fighting aliens

01:29:22.569 --> 01:29:26.210
yet. Give us a chance. Yeah, maybe this summer.

01:29:27.350 --> 01:29:30.039
Bear knuckle gloves. I don't know if they have

01:29:30.039 --> 01:29:32.439
any specific alien combat gloves. I don't know

01:29:32.439 --> 01:29:35.420
if they have six finger gloves or not. Maybe

01:29:35.420 --> 01:29:37.220
if we beat one of these drone things down, we

01:29:37.220 --> 01:29:39.619
can have alien skin gloves. Oh, there we go.

01:29:40.460 --> 01:29:42.939
Size extra, extra, extra, extra, extra large

01:29:42.939 --> 01:29:46.640
with six fingers. But the ones that I've got

01:29:46.640 --> 01:29:48.899
have been really great and they're holding up

01:29:48.899 --> 01:29:50.859
to everything. I've been moving bricks and rocks

01:29:50.859 --> 01:29:53.960
around with them and they have not worn hardly

01:29:53.960 --> 01:29:57.439
at all. So yeah, that's been my experience with

01:29:57.439 --> 01:29:59.319
them same deal a little bit different not bricks

01:29:59.319 --> 01:30:02.439
and rocks, but barbed wire and Buckets and things

01:30:02.439 --> 01:30:05.439
farm stuff farm stuff. Yeah real use you know

01:30:05.439 --> 01:30:07.939
stains here and there man, but I can't tell any

01:30:07.939 --> 01:30:10.300
thin this in the material There's my go -to gloves.

01:30:10.300 --> 01:30:12.060
They're just absolutely my go -to gloves. Yeah

01:30:12.060 --> 01:30:15.640
same here so just use the code name it's a car

01:30:15.640 --> 01:30:20.199
at buy bear knuckle comm and You'll get 15 %

01:30:20.199 --> 01:30:22.649
off your next purchase You should do it. You

01:30:22.649 --> 01:30:24.710
should. Excellent. All right, guys. Appreciate

01:30:24.710 --> 01:30:31.189
y 'all's time. Thank you, guys. So I truly hope

01:30:31.189 --> 01:30:33.149
that this information will give you a little

01:30:33.149 --> 01:30:35.970
better foothold on some things that are more

01:30:35.970 --> 01:30:38.369
than likely coming down the path in the not -so

01:30:38.369 --> 01:30:41.350
-distant future. I've linked the videos that

01:30:41.350 --> 01:30:43.569
Jeff mentions in the comments, as well as a few

01:30:43.569 --> 01:30:46.609
podcasts you're welcome to check out. So keep

01:30:46.609 --> 01:30:48.909
striving to be men of Issachar, and we'll catch

01:30:48.909 --> 01:30:49.489
you next time.