WEBVTT

00:00:01.880 --> 00:00:04.139
Welcome back to the Men of Issachar Podcast.

00:00:04.780 --> 00:00:07.639
We have a very special episode that's been in

00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:10.220
the works for a while now. I think we've had

00:00:10.220 --> 00:00:12.560
to reschedule this particular session around

00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:16.199
four or five times due to either illness or everyone's

00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:19.120
schedules just not being able to match up. Nick

00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:21.320
Duncan and Christie Wright are our guests today,

00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:23.539
and we're going to be talking about classical

00:00:23.539 --> 00:00:26.539
Christian education, or CCE, as you might hear

00:00:26.539 --> 00:00:30.359
it referred to. and why it is superior to other

00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:33.679
types of education in most cases. I know that's

00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:36.960
a bold claim, but there's a study that Christie

00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:40.140
quotes in this episode that kind of backs up

00:00:40.140 --> 00:00:42.719
that claim. So I encourage you to listen all

00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:46.759
the way through. Both Nick and Christie are 1

00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:50.969
% of 1 %ers in my book. Not only are they brilliant

00:00:50.969 --> 00:00:53.909
in many different subjects, they are truly kind

00:00:53.909 --> 00:00:56.969
and good people and have a ton of experience

00:00:56.969 --> 00:01:00.750
and just wisdom to break the subject. So sit

00:01:00.750 --> 00:01:04.549
back, relax, as Terry Gantt, Jeff Wright, and

00:01:04.549 --> 00:01:08.510
myself, Jason Gull, strive to be Men of Issachar.

00:01:19.849 --> 00:01:23.629
Welcome back to the minivisicar podcast the podcast

00:01:23.629 --> 00:01:26.650
where we seek to be like the minivisicar to know

00:01:26.650 --> 00:01:30.469
the times and to know what to do If you if you

00:01:30.469 --> 00:01:32.890
were if you listen to our last podcast we had

00:01:32.890 --> 00:01:36.290
on our guest Joshua Abitoy to speak about elite

00:01:36.290 --> 00:01:39.049
education secondary education higher education,

00:01:39.049 --> 00:01:42.959
I guess And so today we're going to go back to

00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:45.459
a more foundational approach. And we have a couple

00:01:45.459 --> 00:01:47.640
of guests with us today. So I'm here with our

00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:50.620
usual host, Jeff Wright, back with us after a

00:01:50.620 --> 00:01:53.599
lengthy battle with a near terminal case of the

00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:57.260
flu. Jason Gaw, of course, back with us. I'm

00:01:57.260 --> 00:01:59.439
here as well, Terry Gant. And we're back with

00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:02.620
Nick Duncan and Christie Wright. Christie is

00:02:02.620 --> 00:02:05.480
the academic dean of a classical Christian K

00:02:05.480 --> 00:02:09.300
through 12 school. And Nick, what is your title?

00:02:09.449 --> 00:02:11.870
Development director development director of

00:02:11.870 --> 00:02:14.949
a different K through 12 classical school and

00:02:14.949 --> 00:02:19.009
so And I am also an administration in classical

00:02:19.009 --> 00:02:21.370
school So we've got a couple of folks here who

00:02:21.370 --> 00:02:24.310
what we all have at least one foot in in Classical

00:02:24.310 --> 00:02:26.270
either with being a parent or being a teacher

00:02:26.270 --> 00:02:28.870
former teacher, whatever. So this bunch is going

00:02:28.870 --> 00:02:32.150
to discuss Classical education I think today

00:02:32.150 --> 00:02:34.990
so hey, can we get on the record? I guess Chris

00:02:34.990 --> 00:02:38.009
you first how many years in classical? This is

00:02:38.009 --> 00:02:41.550
my 19th year Okay, founded two schools. Yep,

00:02:41.590 --> 00:02:44.069
so far. Nick, how many years particularly were

00:02:44.069 --> 00:02:47.789
you a headmaster? Ten. Ten years. And then taught

00:02:47.789 --> 00:02:50.530
before that for? Three years before that, and

00:02:50.530 --> 00:02:54.610
so 14 or 15 years total at this point in CC.

00:02:55.110 --> 00:02:58.930
A couple decades in the room. All right. Well,

00:02:59.590 --> 00:03:01.930
let's see. I guess the question, probably the

00:03:01.930 --> 00:03:05.328
big question to kick us off with, and this is...

00:03:05.319 --> 00:03:07.340
This is kind of the point of the episode, is

00:03:07.340 --> 00:03:09.659
what is classical education? What is it that

00:03:09.659 --> 00:03:13.020
makes it different? So, anybody want to take

00:03:13.020 --> 00:03:17.819
a stab at that in a succinct way? Yes. Okay,

00:03:17.819 --> 00:03:21.460
do it. All right. Classical Christian education,

00:03:22.580 --> 00:03:26.580
we fondly call it the new old way, because it

00:03:26.580 --> 00:03:30.580
is new in a sense to a lot of us, especially

00:03:30.580 --> 00:03:35.300
in America, this generation particularly. The

00:03:35.300 --> 00:03:38.520
modern movement started in the late 70s, early

00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:41.300
80s. Most of the oldest classical Christian schools

00:03:41.300 --> 00:03:46.139
started in a span between like 78 and 82. And

00:03:46.139 --> 00:03:49.379
so we call it new because that's not very old.

00:03:49.699 --> 00:03:51.639
But we call it the old way because the movement

00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:57.439
is a recovering and a discovery of a way of educating

00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:00.319
that itself is incredibly old. It's the way that

00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:03.560
people in the West were educated. beginning in

00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:05.479
the ancient world, all the way back to Athens.

00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:09.139
Of course, it's looked different in the West,

00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:11.819
even in different seasons and different ages,

00:04:12.219 --> 00:04:16.019
but all the way back to Athens and the first

00:04:16.019 --> 00:04:20.740
academies, the gymnasiums, all the way up to

00:04:20.740 --> 00:04:23.459
the late, in America, all the way up to the late

00:04:23.459 --> 00:04:26.839
1800s, early 1900s. There's about a 40 -year

00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:29.000
stretch, the progressive era from about 1880

00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:32.449
to 1920. When you have the rise of John Dewey

00:04:32.449 --> 00:04:37.209
and others who began what we call like the progressive

00:04:37.209 --> 00:04:40.589
movement, what we call modern education, secular

00:04:40.589 --> 00:04:44.629
education, where they began kind of deconstructing

00:04:44.629 --> 00:04:47.329
the old way of educating and reforming it into

00:04:47.329 --> 00:04:52.009
what we would commonly call job training, preparing

00:04:52.009 --> 00:04:54.230
people for the workforce over and above educating.

00:04:54.730 --> 00:04:57.370
And so the difference is, is that education is

00:04:57.370 --> 00:05:01.300
really a passing on of a way of life, I think,

00:05:01.339 --> 00:05:05.079
most simply is how you would put it. In Ephesians,

00:05:05.139 --> 00:05:08.079
when Paul says, to fathers particularly, to raise

00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:09.699
your children, the nurture and admonition of

00:05:09.699 --> 00:05:12.000
the Lord, one of the words that we translate

00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:14.220
there doesn't actually have a very good English

00:05:14.220 --> 00:05:18.980
translation. So, the Greek word is paideia, and

00:05:18.980 --> 00:05:22.240
we don't really have a…nurture and admonition

00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:25.639
doesn't really do it justice. So, Padea is like

00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:28.480
a passing on of a way of life. It's an inculturation.

00:05:28.819 --> 00:05:33.519
It is what God's people of old would have thought

00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:40.620
of when the Lord told them in Deuteronomy to

00:05:40.620 --> 00:05:44.720
teach their children by writing it on the doorposts

00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:46.839
of their house, on the front lips of their eyes.

00:05:48.300 --> 00:05:52.019
It's Psalm 1. When you rise up, when you walk,

00:05:52.120 --> 00:05:56.560
like at all times, this is an immersive, for

00:05:56.560 --> 00:05:58.519
all my Baptist friends in the room, this is an

00:05:58.519 --> 00:06:03.480
immersive way of doing life. It is a passing

00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:07.060
on of a way of life. And particularly after the

00:06:07.060 --> 00:06:10.579
time of Christ, this type of education became

00:06:10.579 --> 00:06:13.680
distinctly Christian. And so, for the majority

00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:17.339
of its time, it's been Christian. And so, That

00:06:17.339 --> 00:06:20.100
is what kind of Western education has been, and

00:06:20.100 --> 00:06:22.360
then we call it classical education because it's

00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:25.259
old and we're recovering it. And we call it classical

00:06:25.259 --> 00:06:28.000
Christian education because it should be centered

00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:31.579
in Christ, because you'll hear us use words like

00:06:31.579 --> 00:06:34.980
truth, goodness, and beauty. Those are the transcendentals

00:06:34.980 --> 00:06:37.980
that the Medieval's would speak of and everything

00:06:37.980 --> 00:06:41.100
that you could know that was worth knowing was

00:06:41.100 --> 00:06:43.740
true and good and beautiful. and that Christ

00:06:43.740 --> 00:06:46.579
is the standard and the root for those things.

00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:50.660
And so, there's a lot more to it that I'm sure

00:06:50.660 --> 00:06:53.920
everybody here could add on to, but that's kind

00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:57.360
of in a nutshell what it is. And it doesn't change.

00:06:57.680 --> 00:06:59.699
You can find different flavors of it, but our

00:06:59.699 --> 00:07:02.160
discovery of it changes as we continue to read

00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:07.339
medieval writers and ancient writers. And we're

00:07:07.339 --> 00:07:11.079
still in that process. We want our students and

00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:12.879
we want our own children to be lifelong learners.

00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:14.699
And so we should be lifelong learners. So we

00:07:14.699 --> 00:07:17.139
want to keep reading these people and trying

00:07:17.139 --> 00:07:21.800
to improve upon it by recovering more and more

00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:27.060
of the gold and making it even better. So that's

00:07:27.060 --> 00:07:30.199
what we're in the project of doing. That's our

00:07:30.199 --> 00:07:34.600
project. OK. So we can probably unpack a few.

00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:39.079
key terms, right? Like the term classical, if

00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:43.100
you're familiar with it, is a reference to a

00:07:43.100 --> 00:07:45.279
Greco -Roman culture, right? That's what it really

00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:46.939
means in its narrow sense. It has to do with

00:07:46.939 --> 00:07:50.379
Greece and Rome. And that is a big component

00:07:50.379 --> 00:07:53.019
of what classical does, right? There's a lot

00:07:53.019 --> 00:07:58.769
of, I'm going to use this term pedagogy. Pedagogy,

00:07:58.910 --> 00:08:01.709
to put simply, is just teaching method. What

00:08:01.709 --> 00:08:04.250
are the strategies the teachers employ in the

00:08:04.250 --> 00:08:06.709
classroom to actually instruct? So we derive

00:08:06.709 --> 00:08:12.110
a lot of pedagogical strategies from Greeks,

00:08:13.009 --> 00:08:16.850
your Socratic question and answer dialogue. And

00:08:16.850 --> 00:08:20.759
that was a... And still is a very common way

00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:23.480
to educate certain specific classes. So lawyers,

00:08:23.500 --> 00:08:25.720
for instance, are still educated that way, even

00:08:25.720 --> 00:08:27.379
in a modern university that has nothing to do

00:08:27.379 --> 00:08:29.800
with classical. So this is not something that's

00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:32.919
completely vanished from the earth. But K through

00:08:32.919 --> 00:08:36.580
12 classical schools see these teaching methods

00:08:36.580 --> 00:08:40.419
as they align with the children's development.

00:08:40.580 --> 00:08:43.620
They make sense to the kid. And you kind of ride

00:08:43.620 --> 00:08:46.440
with the grain of the student's developing brain

00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:50.379
by Applying pedagogical techniques that enable

00:08:50.379 --> 00:08:52.759
them to learn well and in a way that's interesting

00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:55.799
to them in addition to the content that we actually

00:08:55.799 --> 00:09:00.200
teach so If I had to say that there was there

00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:02.779
was two differences So the idea of an elevator

00:09:02.779 --> 00:09:05.379
pitch right and that was a pretty good one If

00:09:05.379 --> 00:09:07.000
I was just talking to somebody who just asked

00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:09.840
me what what is the the thing that's different

00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:12.500
about classical? I would say well, there's two

00:09:12.500 --> 00:09:15.830
things That are that most people would commonly

00:09:15.830 --> 00:09:18.429
understand and one is curriculum So the actual

00:09:18.429 --> 00:09:20.750
content of what is in the classes and the other

00:09:20.750 --> 00:09:23.110
one is the pedagogy So the pedagogy like I said

00:09:23.110 --> 00:09:25.669
is just that the teaching methods and this is

00:09:25.669 --> 00:09:28.009
of course oversimplified but again elevator pitch

00:09:28.009 --> 00:09:30.629
and so the methods that we teach are borrowed

00:09:30.629 --> 00:09:33.250
from the old way of teaching the old way of learning

00:09:33.250 --> 00:09:35.350
the old way of understanding human development

00:09:35.350 --> 00:09:38.570
and You know, it's important to point out that

00:09:38.570 --> 00:09:41.090
this isn't good because it's old. It's good because

00:09:41.090 --> 00:09:44.350
we can look back on paragons and see that they

00:09:44.350 --> 00:09:46.529
were well educated. I often find myself looking

00:09:46.529 --> 00:09:48.809
back to like the American founders and thinking,

00:09:49.309 --> 00:09:51.750
how were they educated? And it was with these

00:09:51.750 --> 00:09:54.970
methods and with this content. And so the curriculum

00:09:54.970 --> 00:09:58.929
side is, there's certain specific academic disciplines

00:09:58.929 --> 00:10:01.570
that all classical schools ought to have, but

00:10:01.570 --> 00:10:04.210
it's based on the liberal arts. So Mrs. Wright,

00:10:04.289 --> 00:10:06.629
would you like to unpack the liberal arts for

00:10:06.629 --> 00:10:13.120
us? Before I do. I'd like to add I think a brief

00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:15.360
succinct way to think about classical education

00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:18.080
is that you want to help children understand

00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:21.679
the answers to three questions. First, who am

00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:25.120
I? And if you let that sink in, you don't answer

00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:28.899
that with rote memory, right? Who am I? And all

00:10:28.899 --> 00:10:31.179
that you have to learn and unpack to answer that

00:10:31.179 --> 00:10:34.269
question well, how did I get here? again, thinking

00:10:34.269 --> 00:10:37.690
about that culturally, okay, I'm Christian, I'm

00:10:37.690 --> 00:10:39.789
Western, who is my family? What does it mean

00:10:39.789 --> 00:10:42.570
to be, you know, living in the postmodern world?

00:10:42.710 --> 00:10:44.750
And then all that you have to learn to have a

00:10:44.750 --> 00:10:47.110
full answer to that question, who am I? How did

00:10:47.110 --> 00:10:49.710
I get here? And what am I made for? What is my

00:10:49.710 --> 00:10:53.129
TLAS or my end? Where am I headed? I think that's

00:10:53.129 --> 00:10:55.450
another easy way to help, you know, doesn't get

00:10:55.450 --> 00:10:58.049
into the details, which we can into liberal arts

00:10:58.049 --> 00:11:00.409
education, but It doesn't quite get into the

00:11:00.409 --> 00:11:03.149
details of the curriculum, but you can imagine,

00:11:03.149 --> 00:11:05.570
well, what are all of the things I need to learn

00:11:05.570 --> 00:11:07.570
if I want to answer those three questions and

00:11:07.570 --> 00:11:09.990
how much time it would take to be able to do

00:11:09.990 --> 00:11:11.850
that well? Well, and just because we're setting

00:11:11.850 --> 00:11:13.750
up contrast and things, too. So Nick already

00:11:13.750 --> 00:11:16.269
talked about progressive education. Think about

00:11:16.269 --> 00:11:18.669
the richness of those questions versus how will

00:11:18.669 --> 00:11:21.330
I earn a substantial living, which is sort of

00:11:21.330 --> 00:11:23.789
the right or how do I integrate into the economy,

00:11:24.009 --> 00:11:25.970
which is sort of how do I go to college? Yeah,

00:11:25.990 --> 00:11:28.940
that that's the highest. aspiration of the progressive

00:11:28.940 --> 00:11:30.940
education. We're talking about something that's

00:11:30.940 --> 00:11:33.159
just categorically different. Yeah, it really

00:11:33.159 --> 00:11:36.379
is, um, drastically different. But Terry, to

00:11:36.379 --> 00:11:38.120
go back to your question about the Southern liberal

00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:40.919
arts, so we're talking about seven disciplines.

00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:43.220
We're going to organize them into three and four.

00:11:43.379 --> 00:11:46.200
Um, we'll start with, uh, the three, the trivia.

00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:49.940
These are language based, um, arts and they're

00:11:49.940 --> 00:11:54.289
all, um, You had referenced in keeping with the

00:11:54.289 --> 00:11:56.490
grain of children. I think that is really helpful,

00:11:56.590 --> 00:11:59.669
but is secondary. So when we think about them

00:11:59.669 --> 00:12:01.649
just in terms of content and discipline, we're

00:12:01.649 --> 00:12:04.710
talking about grammar, which we define as the

00:12:04.710 --> 00:12:06.970
basic component parts of every subject. So we

00:12:06.970 --> 00:12:10.009
would say that English has a grammar, but also

00:12:10.009 --> 00:12:12.049
science has a grammar, mathematics has a grammar,

00:12:12.389 --> 00:12:15.490
theology has a grammar. So everything has a grammar

00:12:15.490 --> 00:12:17.789
to it, understanding the basic component parts.

00:12:17.809 --> 00:12:20.779
And then we go to logic or dialectic. understanding

00:12:20.779 --> 00:12:22.720
how do those parts interact with each other?

00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:26.019
What kind of systems do I need to understand

00:12:26.019 --> 00:12:29.100
to understand language, science, history? This

00:12:29.100 --> 00:12:30.720
is where we're talking about things like hermeneutics,

00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:32.379
right? How do I understand how literature works?

00:12:32.379 --> 00:12:35.820
Today, I taught middle schoolers about the hero's

00:12:35.820 --> 00:12:37.960
journey. That is very appropriate for the logic

00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:40.519
level because we need to understand how does

00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:44.629
literature work. And then we get to the third

00:12:44.629 --> 00:12:48.169
aspect of the Trivium, which is rhetoric. And

00:12:48.169 --> 00:12:49.929
so in rhetoric, we're understanding what are

00:12:49.929 --> 00:12:52.230
all of these things I've learned for, what do

00:12:52.230 --> 00:12:55.309
I aim them at, how do I communicate about them

00:12:55.309 --> 00:12:59.110
in an educated and wise way, and then also in

00:12:59.110 --> 00:13:01.870
a winsome way so that if I've learned to understand

00:13:01.870 --> 00:13:03.929
what is good and true and beautiful, which is

00:13:03.929 --> 00:13:06.830
sort of undergirds these, I also understand I

00:13:06.830 --> 00:13:09.250
have the impetus to bring people along with me,

00:13:09.250 --> 00:13:11.610
right? I don't learn these things for my own

00:13:11.610 --> 00:13:13.509
sake, not just to get into college, but the goal

00:13:13.509 --> 00:13:16.409
is to understand what is good as a distinction

00:13:16.409 --> 00:13:20.490
from what is evil or just unhelpful. And then

00:13:20.490 --> 00:13:22.690
necessarily I need to be bringing people along

00:13:22.690 --> 00:13:24.490
with me. So that's the trivium grammar, logic,

00:13:24.629 --> 00:13:27.029
rhetoric, and we can talk about these more, but

00:13:27.029 --> 00:13:30.629
just to get the other. These exist as independent,

00:13:30.629 --> 00:13:32.429
like academic disciplines on their, in their

00:13:32.429 --> 00:13:34.450
own right. We, you know, we obviously teach students

00:13:34.450 --> 00:13:37.370
rhetoric in the sense that it's sorry. I'm going

00:13:37.370 --> 00:13:39.730
to say grammar, but rhetoric too. We teach grammar

00:13:39.730 --> 00:13:41.710
in the sense that they're learning parts of speech.

00:13:41.830 --> 00:13:43.269
It's like what you would think of as grammar.

00:13:43.429 --> 00:13:47.509
So it is a class as well, but it's also a category.

00:13:48.529 --> 00:13:52.389
And so it does double duty in that sense. Right.

00:13:52.429 --> 00:13:54.470
So we're talking about a curriculum. Let's put

00:13:54.470 --> 00:13:57.870
kids in grammar class, put kids in a logic class,

00:13:58.049 --> 00:13:59.769
which we do, put kids in a rhetoric class, which

00:13:59.769 --> 00:14:03.580
we do. But I like to think of it as well as an

00:14:03.580 --> 00:14:06.120
epistemological framework. So how do I understand

00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:09.620
any discipline? How do I gain knowledge? So if

00:14:09.620 --> 00:14:13.179
I look at anatomy and physiology, which is not

00:14:13.179 --> 00:14:14.419
my field, I probably should have picked something

00:14:14.419 --> 00:14:17.259
I knew more about, but I need to start by understanding.

00:14:17.460 --> 00:14:21.220
I'm building knowledge. How do I understand anatomy

00:14:21.220 --> 00:14:23.279
and physiology at a grammar level? What are the

00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:25.059
basic component parts? There's a lot of memory

00:14:25.059 --> 00:14:27.179
involved. We have to know the names of things.

00:14:27.580 --> 00:14:29.539
Right? And we can think about, you know, we could

00:14:29.539 --> 00:14:32.179
talk a lot about naming and the theological implications

00:14:32.179 --> 00:14:35.000
with naming, having authority and mastery and

00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:37.019
understanding something well. But then I need

00:14:37.019 --> 00:14:38.940
to know how do the systems of the body work?

00:14:39.059 --> 00:14:41.440
And then what is the body for and how do I communicate

00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:43.299
that? What are all the reasons I would need to

00:14:43.299 --> 00:14:46.379
communicate that? And that's just one discipline.

00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:49.779
So we're attacking everything with the Trivium,

00:14:49.779 --> 00:14:52.539
but the Trivium is also in and of itself three

00:14:52.539 --> 00:14:56.559
different, you know, content areas. I don't know

00:14:56.559 --> 00:14:57.879
if we want to keep talking about the Trivium

00:14:57.879 --> 00:14:59.220
or if I should go on. No, you can move on. I

00:14:59.220 --> 00:15:03.179
just wanted to point that out, that it can be

00:15:03.179 --> 00:15:05.919
both. So context is key. Yeah, it should be.

00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:08.899
You say it can be. I think it necessarily should

00:15:08.899 --> 00:15:11.299
be. Well, I agree. I agree. What I mean is like

00:15:11.299 --> 00:15:13.960
in conversation, it could be either of those

00:15:13.960 --> 00:15:16.120
things. So you got to pay attention to what specifically.

00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:19.720
And that doesn't even get to Dorothy Sayer's

00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:21.980
understanding. Well, I wouldn't say that that's

00:15:21.980 --> 00:15:23.679
her full understanding of the Trivium. It's just

00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:26.970
what she puts out an essay. She gives a speech,

00:15:27.049 --> 00:15:29.269
I believe in 1947, if anybody wants to correct

00:15:29.269 --> 00:15:32.029
me on that. She gives us a speech to the graduating

00:15:32.029 --> 00:15:35.470
class. Again, check my details, but a graduating

00:15:35.470 --> 00:15:39.090
class of teachers at Oxford in 47. And she says,

00:15:39.870 --> 00:15:41.889
no one will ever listen to me, but here are some

00:15:41.889 --> 00:15:44.309
thoughts I have about education. And so she puts

00:15:45.799 --> 00:15:48.159
the trivium back out on the table. And she says,

00:15:48.419 --> 00:15:50.960
look around you. Are we impressed with what we're

00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.120
seeing from our educated class? It's excellent,

00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:56.659
by the way, for her to have written this so long

00:15:56.659 --> 00:15:59.899
ago. It's pretty jarring. It's available for

00:15:59.899 --> 00:16:02.460
free if you just Google it. Dorothy Sayers' Lost

00:16:02.460 --> 00:16:04.279
Tools of Learning. That's right. And you'll find

00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:07.100
it. And it's not very long. So if this is an

00:16:07.100 --> 00:16:09.259
interesting topic to you. look that up and you'll

00:16:09.259 --> 00:16:12.139
find it pretty easily. Yeah. So she is really

00:16:12.139 --> 00:16:16.120
responsible for the spark of the recovery that

00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:18.919
Nick was mentioning earlier. And she talks about

00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:22.440
the Trivium in a third way that I think is really

00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:24.659
very excellent, but I also think is really secondary.

00:16:25.100 --> 00:16:27.299
So she talks about it in terms of the developmental

00:16:27.299 --> 00:16:30.580
stages of children. And so children are pole

00:16:30.580 --> 00:16:32.620
parrots in the grammar stage. They want to repeat.

00:16:32.700 --> 00:16:34.399
This is where we get our chanting and our reciting

00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:35.919
and we can do it again and do it again and do

00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:37.480
it again because we know the six -year -old.

00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:43.500
Their brains are good at memorizing large volumes

00:16:43.500 --> 00:16:48.600
of grammar, essentially. I know in teacher school,

00:16:49.019 --> 00:16:52.340
they really downplayed or really condemned rote

00:16:52.340 --> 00:16:54.399
memory. They would say, drill and kill. Don't

00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:56.080
drill and kill. Nick, I don't know if you heard

00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:59.090
this in teacher school, too. But they say, don't

00:16:59.090 --> 00:17:01.730
drill and kill. But then what we have is a class

00:17:01.730 --> 00:17:03.950
of a society of people. Everybody has really

00:17:03.950 --> 00:17:06.410
strong opinions, but not a lot of factual basis

00:17:06.410 --> 00:17:08.410
for those opinions because they. they didn't

00:17:08.410 --> 00:17:10.390
learn the grammar of whatever they're talking

00:17:10.390 --> 00:17:12.890
about. And so, right, the strong opinions of

00:17:12.890 --> 00:17:15.630
politics, but you say, well, who ran for your

00:17:15.630 --> 00:17:18.650
state Senate or define this thing that you hate.

00:17:18.789 --> 00:17:21.730
And they often can't. Absolutely. Yeah. So defining

00:17:21.730 --> 00:17:23.049
is really important. It's part of the grammar

00:17:23.049 --> 00:17:26.049
stage again, necessary. Um, and this is really

00:17:26.049 --> 00:17:28.069
important for small children. So Dorothy Sayers

00:17:28.069 --> 00:17:31.250
said the pole parrot stage and then she, um,

00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:33.880
in the logic stage, again, she's kind of looking

00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:36.640
at middle aged or sorry, middle aged middle,

00:17:36.779 --> 00:17:38.819
middle aged children, middle grades, children,

00:17:38.940 --> 00:17:41.960
middle school aged children. And she called them

00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:44.539
the pert, I believe. Am I remembering that correctly?

00:17:45.420 --> 00:17:48.279
And if anyone's spent time with a 13 year old,

00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:50.460
they know that you cannot tell them anything

00:17:50.460 --> 00:17:52.799
that is true without them questioning that. And

00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:55.220
that's, you know, probably a little bit of a

00:17:55.220 --> 00:17:57.200
social thing. I think it's in the nature of a

00:17:57.200 --> 00:17:59.200
child to start to question and say, I need to

00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:01.829
understand more. than just taking that at face

00:18:01.829 --> 00:18:03.289
value. I think that's good. What they're saying

00:18:03.289 --> 00:18:05.069
is, you know, can I see what's behind the curtain,

00:18:05.069 --> 00:18:06.650
please? Can I understand? And that's the developmental

00:18:06.650 --> 00:18:11.329
stage where an independent, mature adult is starting

00:18:11.329 --> 00:18:14.049
to emerge. Right. Right. And so it's good for

00:18:14.049 --> 00:18:16.250
a student to, at some stage, start saying, well,

00:18:16.250 --> 00:18:18.069
I'm going to have my own thoughts about things.

00:18:18.069 --> 00:18:21.089
Oh, great. It's just, it's so often kind of like

00:18:21.089 --> 00:18:23.910
a wildfire. Right. Because they're immature.

00:18:24.049 --> 00:18:27.390
Right. So one of the things I appreciate is that

00:18:27.390 --> 00:18:30.029
this model anticipates that and channels it.

00:18:30.549 --> 00:18:32.930
And what I was referencing, I think people tend

00:18:32.930 --> 00:18:35.170
to think of middle schoolers as really sassy

00:18:35.170 --> 00:18:37.569
and sarcastic. That might be more of a social,

00:18:38.029 --> 00:18:40.369
I hate the phrase social construct, but some

00:18:40.369 --> 00:18:42.230
things are socially constructed. I don't think

00:18:42.230 --> 00:18:44.609
they necessarily have to be punks. I think that's

00:18:44.609 --> 00:18:46.509
probably more social. They aren't necessarily

00:18:46.509 --> 00:18:49.390
foolish though. That's right. That's the biblical

00:18:49.390 --> 00:18:52.369
category. The goal is to become wise. That's

00:18:52.369 --> 00:18:54.210
right. And so they're questioning, but they're

00:18:54.210 --> 00:18:55.829
not always going to do that in a really respectful

00:18:55.829 --> 00:18:57.490
way. They're not going to do it in a thoughtful

00:18:57.490 --> 00:19:01.549
way. An effective way. to teach them how to question.

00:19:02.329 --> 00:19:04.009
What we like to say is they're going to argue

00:19:04.009 --> 00:19:05.930
anyway. We may as well teach them how to do it.

00:19:06.109 --> 00:19:08.230
Well, there are rules. How do you ask the question?

00:19:08.390 --> 00:19:11.329
Well, how do you, you know, to, to elicit information

00:19:11.329 --> 00:19:13.269
that will help you resolve whatever it is that

00:19:13.269 --> 00:19:16.529
interrogate an idea. Well, right, right. So,

00:19:16.529 --> 00:19:19.829
um, again, if we're looking at sears, um, you

00:19:19.829 --> 00:19:21.930
know, the way she laid out the trivia and we're

00:19:21.930 --> 00:19:25.390
talking about how do we teach pedagogically in

00:19:25.390 --> 00:19:27.470
keeping with the development. mental stages of

00:19:27.470 --> 00:19:30.730
a child, and we look at a child who is foolish,

00:19:31.089 --> 00:19:34.269
bound up in their hearts, yet straining towards

00:19:34.269 --> 00:19:36.430
adulthood and independent thinking. Still bearing

00:19:36.430 --> 00:19:38.849
the image of God. Yeah, it just clashes, and

00:19:38.849 --> 00:19:40.650
it's just a big knot and a big mess. And so we

00:19:40.650 --> 00:19:42.269
say, here's what we need. We need structure.

00:19:42.609 --> 00:19:45.029
We need systems for thought, right? We need to

00:19:45.029 --> 00:19:47.349
teach you what questions to ask, how to do that.

00:19:47.849 --> 00:19:49.430
Let you know there are questions to be asked.

00:19:49.529 --> 00:19:51.910
This is a good thing, right? Pushing against

00:19:51.910 --> 00:19:53.799
authority, I think, is a good thing. appropriate

00:19:53.799 --> 00:19:57.200
within all the parameters, respect being one

00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:59.559
of them. And then when they've learned how to

00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:02.680
do that well, what we see in our older teenagers,

00:20:03.220 --> 00:20:05.259
here we say rhetoric school is 10th, 11th, and

00:20:05.259 --> 00:20:07.259
12th. That's kind of the idea. Schools can define

00:20:07.259 --> 00:20:08.579
that differently, but we're looking at those

00:20:08.579 --> 00:20:12.559
older teenagers and we see that they're anxious

00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:17.200
to create. And contribute contribute term that

00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:18.740
comes to mind for me. I don't know that anybody's

00:20:18.740 --> 00:20:20.460
had an original thought in a really long time

00:20:20.460 --> 00:20:22.500
Sure, but they like to think that they have you

00:20:22.500 --> 00:20:24.779
know, they are striving towards original. Well,

00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:26.619
you're you know You're at the age that they're

00:20:26.619 --> 00:20:29.400
at they have accumulated sufficient grammar knowledge

00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:31.619
and they have learned to think clearly enough

00:20:31.619 --> 00:20:34.240
that they now Feel that they have contributions

00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:38.359
to make to What would happen with whatever academic

00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:40.440
discipline whatever social situation they're

00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:42.519
in and in many cases they're they're correct

00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:45.069
and so Now we're at the stage where we're going

00:20:45.069 --> 00:20:48.369
to teach them how to do that, right? Just for

00:20:48.369 --> 00:20:49.809
clarity, we're talking about moving into the

00:20:49.809 --> 00:20:51.609
rhetoric stage. Moving into the rhetoric stage,

00:20:51.769 --> 00:20:54.670
that's right. So we do need them to contribute

00:20:54.670 --> 00:20:58.089
and every contribution is going to require communication.

00:20:58.390 --> 00:21:02.269
Yes. There's no field. that says communication,

00:21:02.289 --> 00:21:04.630
good communication skills are not required here

00:21:04.630 --> 00:21:07.170
whatsoever. Nobody's going to say that. Not to

00:21:07.170 --> 00:21:08.789
mention, you know, Nick talked about a way of

00:21:08.789 --> 00:21:11.750
life, not to mention the fact that communication

00:21:11.750 --> 00:21:14.289
is necessary to be a good churchman, to be a

00:21:14.289 --> 00:21:17.349
good wife, to be a good adult child, you know,

00:21:17.349 --> 00:21:20.269
just thinking about all of the things that are

00:21:20.269 --> 00:21:24.190
going to be required from humans, not just we

00:21:24.190 --> 00:21:25.990
do this so we can go to college and then we can

00:21:25.990 --> 00:21:29.450
work. and then we can retire. But what does life

00:21:29.450 --> 00:21:31.890
look like? This is an enculturation. And our

00:21:31.890 --> 00:21:35.170
society dissuades communication skills because

00:21:35.170 --> 00:21:37.910
we have such good communication tools that the

00:21:37.910 --> 00:21:41.309
skills often lack because of those tools. We

00:21:41.309 --> 00:21:44.650
were just discussing this before. The Zoomers

00:21:44.650 --> 00:21:46.609
stereotypically aren't very good at phone calls,

00:21:46.710 --> 00:21:49.410
right? Because they text and email for everything.

00:21:51.859 --> 00:21:54.519
That's a weakness for this generation because

00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:56.160
they have been allowed to lean on this and another

00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:59.319
example just We all used to memorize phone numbers

00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:01.160
right now. Nobody remembers anybody's phone number

00:22:01.160 --> 00:22:03.460
because we just save them so it's a skill we

00:22:03.460 --> 00:22:05.380
used to lean on now we have a tool that does

00:22:05.380 --> 00:22:08.259
it for us and you know part of the part of the

00:22:08.259 --> 00:22:11.259
purpose of reaching back in time is to look at

00:22:11.259 --> 00:22:13.980
what what were we what was education good at

00:22:13.980 --> 00:22:16.019
when it was making Renaissance men and women

00:22:16.019 --> 00:22:19.259
and Calling those things back up even though

00:22:19.259 --> 00:22:22.940
yeah sure AI can write your email or write your

00:22:22.940 --> 00:22:26.079
speech or whatever. Rhetoric teaches them how

00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:29.319
to think through it and do it in a superior way.

00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:32.099
A way that can actually move the needle. Sure.

00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:36.819
With the trivium, grammar, logic, rhetoric, and

00:22:36.819 --> 00:22:40.779
then quadrivium, what does that do? Get your

00:22:40.779 --> 00:22:42.740
listeners up on that. Right. Are you sure we

00:22:42.740 --> 00:22:46.390
can? talk another hour about rhetoric. Right.

00:22:46.569 --> 00:22:48.309
So that's the three trivium. And then we get

00:22:48.309 --> 00:22:51.109
into the four. I said the trivium or language

00:22:51.109 --> 00:22:52.990
based. I've been talking also for a while. I

00:22:52.990 --> 00:22:55.430
don't know if anybody wants to. I'll do, I'll

00:22:55.430 --> 00:22:58.490
do the quadrivium. How's that? So the quadrivium

00:22:58.490 --> 00:23:02.230
are our number arts and they are arithmetic,

00:23:03.150 --> 00:23:09.369
geometry, astronomy, and music. And so That can

00:23:09.369 --> 00:23:12.089
be explained. This is still a little esoteric,

00:23:12.710 --> 00:23:15.150
but arithmetic is numbers in sequence, geometry

00:23:15.150 --> 00:23:20.930
is numbers in space, astronomy is time and space,

00:23:21.130 --> 00:23:25.029
and music is numbers in time, which is fancy

00:23:25.029 --> 00:23:28.049
sounding. But these are all number arts, and

00:23:28.049 --> 00:23:29.390
you wouldn't think that when everyone's like,

00:23:29.450 --> 00:23:32.130
do you got STEM education in classical? And that

00:23:32.130 --> 00:23:34.890
may be a good deviation, because that's going

00:23:34.890 --> 00:23:38.759
to be a question. And the answer is yes, you

00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:42.839
know you teach you teach science and math robustly

00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:46.680
and Furthermore, why why are we studying science

00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:50.220
and math? One of the points of emphasis is is

00:23:50.220 --> 00:23:52.900
because science is such a vast field It's not

00:23:52.900 --> 00:23:55.000
really reasonable to expect any school K through

00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:57.319
12 to teach a student to be an expert in any

00:23:57.319 --> 00:24:00.200
field of science. And so a big important part

00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:01.839
of it, in addition to learning the grammar of

00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:03.960
a specific type of science, for instance, you

00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:06.299
mentioned ANP or anatomy and physiology before,

00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:09.980
but also teaching them how to be scientists,

00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:13.000
right? Like how do you make legitimate scientific

00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:15.779
inquiry and submit to the truth of your findings

00:24:15.779 --> 00:24:19.579
and things of that nature? So there's some philosophical

00:24:19.579 --> 00:24:22.319
components to it as well. If that doesn't sound

00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:25.200
relevant, I think most people can harken back

00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:28.180
to very recent days when we were told the science

00:24:28.180 --> 00:24:31.180
had a definitive conclusion on a topic and we

00:24:31.180 --> 00:24:32.940
should listen to the science. The science is

00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:35.059
settled. You need a sort of person who understands

00:24:35.059 --> 00:24:37.599
the grammar and the logic of science to go, wait

00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:40.279
a minute, that's not how that works. So some

00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:42.359
kind of rhetorical manipulation is taking place

00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:45.079
here. Well, really what we want to do in science

00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:47.759
is we want to organize our thinking. One way

00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:49.680
to think about classical education is we're teaching

00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:52.059
children how to have organized an organized mind

00:24:52.059 --> 00:24:56.880
and an organized heart. Um, and so science, of

00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:00.099
course we want nurses and doctors and method.

00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:01.640
We need all of that. That's really practical.

00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:05.160
That stuff is definitely, um, available to students.

00:25:05.940 --> 00:25:08.900
But, um, I would say more than that is that we

00:25:08.900 --> 00:25:11.240
need students to learn how to organize their

00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:13.910
minds and the scientific. A study in science

00:25:13.910 --> 00:25:15.829
helps them to do that with the material world,

00:25:15.950 --> 00:25:18.670
which they live in. It's necessary. And I don't

00:25:18.670 --> 00:25:20.609
think, I think it's tempting for Christians.

00:25:20.730 --> 00:25:22.130
You know, I think there's an old idea that like

00:25:22.130 --> 00:25:23.690
Christian schools just say, well, we just need

00:25:23.690 --> 00:25:25.910
the Bible. What else do we need? Just teach the

00:25:25.910 --> 00:25:28.640
Bible. That's sufficient. It is sufficient for

00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:31.859
salvation and godly living, true. But the Lord

00:25:31.859 --> 00:25:35.160
has worked in the material world as well. And

00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:38.019
I think having a robust understanding of science,

00:25:38.099 --> 00:25:40.960
learning to love the works of the Lord, not just

00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:43.500
in the spiritual realm and the immaterial world,

00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:46.079
but in the material world as well. Again, it's

00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:48.039
just thinking, how do I work? The scientific

00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:51.339
method is a way to think through a problem. And

00:25:51.339 --> 00:25:52.880
so even if you're not going to be a scientist,

00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:56.420
if you're going to be a mother, I just need to

00:25:56.420 --> 00:25:58.650
think. I need to have an organized mind and know

00:25:58.650 --> 00:26:00.869
how to think through a problem well, and that

00:26:00.869 --> 00:26:05.609
applies to anything. Sure. Home improvement project,

00:26:05.970 --> 00:26:10.329
car problem, very down, earthy issues. A special

00:26:10.329 --> 00:26:12.630
needs child. Even relationship problem, even

00:26:12.630 --> 00:26:15.410
things that aren't necessarily STEM subjects.

00:26:15.849 --> 00:26:18.269
How do I solve the problem in an organized way?

00:26:18.829 --> 00:26:23.069
And then also in a precise way. Nick might speak

00:26:23.069 --> 00:26:27.140
more to this, but the Medieval said, Do not get

00:26:27.140 --> 00:26:30.359
near the theological studies until you have passed

00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:33.819
certain markers in math and science. And the

00:26:33.819 --> 00:26:37.220
reason is because theology and the greater things,

00:26:37.579 --> 00:26:41.019
the transcendental things, require such an ability

00:26:41.019 --> 00:26:46.130
to practice precision. right, to define well,

00:26:46.289 --> 00:26:48.690
to think through categories well. And science

00:26:48.690 --> 00:26:50.289
and math do that for us really, really well.

00:26:50.430 --> 00:26:52.990
So I like to call math details training class.

00:26:52.990 --> 00:26:55.569
Yes. It is a kind of logic class in its own right.

00:26:55.990 --> 00:27:00.250
Absolutely. And the Medieval saw philosophy as

00:27:00.250 --> 00:27:02.589
interrelated to what we would call mathematics.

00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:06.259
because it's about orderliness, precision, right?

00:27:06.380 --> 00:27:08.559
So Pythagoras is not just developing a mathematical

00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:11.339
theorem. He's engaging in philosophy because

00:27:11.339 --> 00:27:14.200
there's an interconnected in a way that probably

00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:17.099
he didn't recognize as a pagan. There's an interconnectedness

00:27:17.099 --> 00:27:19.839
within Christ who is revealed both through special

00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:24.259
revelation and his natural world. They saw those

00:27:24.259 --> 00:27:26.180
things as more tightly wedded that would be wise

00:27:26.180 --> 00:27:27.960
to see as more tightly wedded too because you're

00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:30.890
operating on the same for lack of a better term,

00:27:31.130 --> 00:27:34.390
operating system that God installed in His creation.

00:27:35.130 --> 00:27:38.089
Another thing to take this in a little bit different

00:27:38.089 --> 00:27:43.829
but a related direction is the importance of

00:27:43.829 --> 00:27:46.309
thinking of those transcendentals. So again,

00:27:46.309 --> 00:27:48.950
they are truth, goodness, and beauty. Everything

00:27:48.950 --> 00:27:51.710
that Christy said is right about having an organized

00:27:51.710 --> 00:27:55.750
mind, and that that is a thing that we're seeking

00:27:55.750 --> 00:27:59.920
within classical Christian education. But when

00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:07.980
you think about humans having souls, right? So

00:28:07.980 --> 00:28:09.920
souls are simple, they're one thing, but they

00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:12.660
have various faculties. So we have a will and

00:28:12.660 --> 00:28:18.960
we have a mind and we have affections. And the

00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:21.599
way that we educate, if we're passing on a whole

00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:28.109
way of life, then The liberal arts particularly

00:28:28.109 --> 00:28:30.829
are about intellectual virtue. So the things

00:28:30.829 --> 00:28:35.190
that that Christy was speaking to But it's also

00:28:35.190 --> 00:28:40.230
why we value things like fine arts you've seen

00:28:40.230 --> 00:28:44.130
a growing recovery of What we would call mechanical

00:28:44.130 --> 00:28:47.170
arts, which are fine arts or arts that would

00:28:47.170 --> 00:28:49.839
produce beauty and liberal arts produce intellectual

00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:54.279
virtue and mechanical arts are producing things

00:28:54.279 --> 00:28:59.480
that are for just the common good of man. So

00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:02.000
mechanical arts are very broad, but you can think

00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:04.660
of like a beekeeper, someone who is beekeeping

00:29:04.660 --> 00:29:07.259
is doing a mechanical art and the outworking

00:29:07.259 --> 00:29:09.799
of that is honey, which is a good thing. And

00:29:09.799 --> 00:29:12.839
those things meet sometimes in like a skilled

00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:16.259
craftsman with wood. Yes. Very functional, also

00:29:16.259 --> 00:29:19.809
very beautiful. Both things are there's intellect

00:29:19.809 --> 00:29:23.569
involved there Your affections are involved there

00:29:23.569 --> 00:29:26.809
because you want to build something that is good,

00:29:27.170 --> 00:29:29.609
right? You want to build something that is lovely

00:29:29.609 --> 00:29:33.230
and of course you have to use the basic foundations

00:29:33.230 --> 00:29:36.910
of nature and how the wood works and how the

00:29:36.910 --> 00:29:39.069
saw will work that cuts it and you have to use

00:29:39.069 --> 00:29:42.170
math to measure and to figure out the best way

00:29:42.170 --> 00:29:46.930
to to do the craft to join things together or

00:29:46.930 --> 00:29:49.430
to tear some things apart in order to join them

00:29:49.430 --> 00:29:50.990
to other things. Well, and then how to glorify

00:29:50.990 --> 00:29:53.130
them, right? You glorify them by joining them

00:29:53.130 --> 00:29:57.269
well, varnishing, displaying. So part of all

00:29:57.269 --> 00:30:02.769
this education of it not just being just intellectual

00:30:02.769 --> 00:30:05.730
pursuit is that you don't want to make just very

00:30:05.730 --> 00:30:08.089
clever devils, right? So we talk about the language

00:30:08.089 --> 00:30:12.009
of piety a lot. So Thinking about what you're

00:30:12.009 --> 00:30:14.789
made for that question that Christy raised earlier

00:30:14.789 --> 00:30:18.230
You know Westminster shorter catechism question

00:30:18.230 --> 00:30:20.069
one says you're made to glorify God and enjoy

00:30:20.069 --> 00:30:24.890
him forever Right. So that involves all of those

00:30:24.890 --> 00:30:27.069
Transcendentals that we're speaking about so

00:30:27.069 --> 00:30:31.690
so I was I was made by God What are what who

00:30:31.690 --> 00:30:34.750
is he then and what are my duties to him and

00:30:34.750 --> 00:30:36.569
water and then so the first four commandments

00:30:36.569 --> 00:30:39.809
are all about that, right? And then the last

00:30:39.809 --> 00:30:41.410
six commandments are all about to our fellow

00:30:41.410 --> 00:30:44.890
man. So this is Christ saying, love God and love

00:30:44.890 --> 00:30:47.990
neighbor, right? The very first command of loving

00:30:47.990 --> 00:30:49.750
neighbor is to honor your father and your mother.

00:30:50.210 --> 00:30:55.470
So how should inferiors honor superiors? And

00:30:55.470 --> 00:30:58.009
how should superiors honor inferiors? Like there's

00:30:58.009 --> 00:30:59.769
hierarchy built into God's world. We all have

00:30:59.769 --> 00:31:02.470
biological fathers and mothers. We all also live

00:31:02.470 --> 00:31:06.500
under various... local state, national governments

00:31:06.500 --> 00:31:09.680
in America that rule us. Lordship of Christ for

00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:11.460
him and over all things. Christ is head of the

00:31:11.460 --> 00:31:14.440
church and also all things. And so hopefully

00:31:14.440 --> 00:31:16.420
our students are going to be church members,

00:31:16.619 --> 00:31:19.740
right? So like there's all these various hierarchies

00:31:19.740 --> 00:31:21.799
that teach us how to relate to other humans in

00:31:21.799 --> 00:31:28.720
our life. And piety is honoring those institutions

00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:33.279
and obeying their lawful commands and not only

00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:34.839
those that are living, but honoring those that

00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:38.819
have come before, right? And so this is why we

00:31:38.819 --> 00:31:42.740
read by and large people who have died, right,

00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:47.359
from ages past because they have wisdom to offer

00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:51.579
that we need to glean from and not just so we

00:31:51.579 --> 00:31:53.160
can learn what has happened, but like Christy

00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:56.819
said, know who we are and it pushes us into the

00:31:56.819 --> 00:31:59.420
future. It's true conservatism. How do we conserve

00:31:59.420 --> 00:32:01.569
these things? But not just conserve them for

00:32:01.569 --> 00:32:05.630
their own sake, conserve them so that we can

00:32:05.630 --> 00:32:08.529
learn how to glorify God and how we can learn

00:32:08.529 --> 00:32:11.109
to honor our fathers and our mothers that came

00:32:11.109 --> 00:32:12.829
before us. Yeah, so I've been chomping at the

00:32:12.829 --> 00:32:15.769
bit, listening to you talk. I'll take a little

00:32:15.769 --> 00:32:17.349
excursion here, but I want to tee you back up

00:32:17.349 --> 00:32:21.150
on that point. So Christy talked about the kind

00:32:21.150 --> 00:32:24.390
of human frame approach that classical education

00:32:24.390 --> 00:32:27.069
represents as secondary. That was for me sort

00:32:27.069 --> 00:32:30.509
of the hook. that set my affections for classical.

00:32:31.309 --> 00:32:33.269
You think about, you know, again, contrasts are

00:32:33.269 --> 00:32:35.970
helpful. You think about a progressive educator

00:32:35.970 --> 00:32:38.470
who takes a child and sees it as an unformed

00:32:38.470 --> 00:32:42.990
lump with potential for usefulness in an economy.

00:32:43.490 --> 00:32:47.029
And they begin to shape that lump toward their

00:32:47.029 --> 00:32:50.609
purposes for it, right? Classical education actually

00:32:50.609 --> 00:32:53.789
has spent centuries, maybe millennia, studying

00:32:53.789 --> 00:32:57.430
the human as a creature. and figure out the best

00:32:57.430 --> 00:33:01.450
ways to bring that creature to its highest expression

00:33:01.450 --> 00:33:04.009
of the potential that was built within it. And

00:33:04.009 --> 00:33:06.769
that was what, again, hooked me on this, that

00:33:06.769 --> 00:33:09.950
it was a human kind of education, where progressive

00:33:09.950 --> 00:33:14.650
education is much more dehumanizing. It makes

00:33:14.650 --> 00:33:18.210
cogs for a machine, is an easy example, where

00:33:18.210 --> 00:33:20.549
classical education is trying to raise humans,

00:33:20.650 --> 00:33:24.190
to elevate and glorify humans. And one of the

00:33:24.190 --> 00:33:25.829
things that i most appreciate about the traditions

00:33:25.829 --> 00:33:27.769
i learn more of it in here we're getting close

00:33:27.769 --> 00:33:30.670
to the tee up nick. Is that classical education

00:33:30.670 --> 00:33:34.130
is largely immune to what cs -luis or it has

00:33:34.130 --> 00:33:35.950
been there's forces that are pushing in the wrong

00:33:35.950 --> 00:33:38.109
way but it's largely been immune to what louis

00:33:38.109 --> 00:33:40.730
called chronological snobbery. Which if you're

00:33:40.730 --> 00:33:42.650
not familiar with that listener it's this idea

00:33:42.650 --> 00:33:45.509
it's intellectually unfounded that because we

00:33:45.509 --> 00:33:48.910
exist later in history we have a superior perspective

00:33:48.910 --> 00:33:52.299
to those who've gone before us. That's chronological

00:33:52.299 --> 00:33:54.859
snobbery. Classical Christian education, when

00:33:54.859 --> 00:33:58.000
done right, rejects that. To an episode we did

00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:00.720
previously on Menevis Carr about conservatives

00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:03.319
need to conserve something, one of the things

00:34:03.319 --> 00:34:04.880
we're privileged to know is that in a fallen

00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:07.500
world, things that are truly true, good, and

00:34:07.500 --> 00:34:09.659
beautiful are hard to come by. And they must

00:34:09.659 --> 00:34:12.639
be conserved and handed on and built upon. Well,

00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:15.760
that's what classical is doing. And so I guess

00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:17.519
the thing that I most want to tee you up on here,

00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:21.670
Nick, is This is a fifth commandment education.

00:34:22.949 --> 00:34:25.849
We talk about honoring our fathers and mothers.

00:34:25.929 --> 00:34:29.269
We know that's a virtue in Christianity. We know

00:34:29.269 --> 00:34:31.849
it's a command. We tend to have a limited view

00:34:31.849 --> 00:34:34.309
of, well, that means I need to be respectful

00:34:34.309 --> 00:34:37.030
of my dad. I need to do what my mom says when

00:34:37.030 --> 00:34:39.670
she tells me to go do the chores. But we actually

00:34:39.670 --> 00:34:41.969
have a fifth commandment understanding that's

00:34:41.969 --> 00:34:46.090
incredibly expansive. And this tradition takes

00:34:46.090 --> 00:34:49.190
it to an appropriate Christian end. And so, let

00:34:49.190 --> 00:34:51.429
me just roll that fifth commandment I did to

00:34:51.429 --> 00:34:53.869
you and let you talk about that further. Yeah.

00:34:55.130 --> 00:34:59.269
Well, you did a pretty good job. I'd say we could

00:34:59.269 --> 00:35:01.750
think about maybe like a practical outworking

00:35:01.750 --> 00:35:06.889
of what this would look like. So, something that

00:35:06.889 --> 00:35:08.809
a lot of us in this room care about are like

00:35:08.809 --> 00:35:12.170
generational farms, right? So, the way that a

00:35:12.170 --> 00:35:14.389
classical Christian education and thinking about

00:35:14.389 --> 00:35:17.860
piety and honoring those have come before um

00:35:17.860 --> 00:35:21.280
what that what making a decision about your family's

00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:23.719
generational farm would look like versus what

00:35:23.719 --> 00:35:27.699
uh progressive education system would have you

00:35:27.699 --> 00:35:31.400
think about a decision like that so let's say

00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:35.179
your your great great grandfather uh started

00:35:35.179 --> 00:35:38.019
this farm and he's got a few hundred acres and

00:35:38.019 --> 00:35:40.539
uh generations of your family have worked it

00:35:40.539 --> 00:35:43.780
and because you grew up in progressive education

00:35:43.780 --> 00:35:46.320
and because you've You know what's the media

00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:48.380
tell you that like the economy is the most important

00:35:48.380 --> 00:35:52.000
thing ever. All that matters is like GDP, this

00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:53.760
is the measure of what makes a nation great.

00:35:55.260 --> 00:35:58.460
Then you would be very easily, it would be very

00:35:58.460 --> 00:36:01.679
easy for you to want to sell that farm because

00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:04.940
after all, you've raised in what they called

00:36:04.940 --> 00:36:07.179
education, but what was really job training and

00:36:07.179 --> 00:36:09.699
teaching you to be a machine in the cog to help

00:36:09.699 --> 00:36:11.699
you think, how can I make the most amount of

00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:15.809
money possible? to live the best and most fulfilling

00:36:15.809 --> 00:36:19.530
and happiest life that I can live. And so I'm

00:36:19.530 --> 00:36:22.789
going to sell the family farm for $50 million

00:36:22.789 --> 00:36:26.289
because they're going to subdivide it or they're

00:36:26.289 --> 00:36:29.130
going to build an AI data center on it. That's

00:36:29.130 --> 00:36:31.789
a big push now. I feel like I've walked into

00:36:31.789 --> 00:36:35.420
a Wendell Berry story. At this point. Yeah. Well,

00:36:35.420 --> 00:36:37.599
everyone should read Wendell Berry. He thinks

00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:40.340
in a very classical and Christian way. As I say,

00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:44.199
he does actually tell stories to flesh these

00:36:44.199 --> 00:36:46.840
exact ideas out. He does tell stories to flesh

00:36:46.840 --> 00:36:52.300
these things out. And so versus someone who went

00:36:52.300 --> 00:36:56.480
through a classical Christian education, if it

00:36:56.480 --> 00:37:00.659
did its job, then you would hope that they're

00:37:00.659 --> 00:37:04.500
thinking about more than just the economics of

00:37:04.500 --> 00:37:05.880
it, that they know they're not just a cog in

00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:09.900
the machine, that their most important asset

00:37:09.900 --> 00:37:12.900
is not just their economic output, but that they

00:37:12.900 --> 00:37:16.679
also owe honor and respect to the generations

00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:19.119
that have come before them, and that they would

00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:23.320
recognize that there's something special, and

00:37:23.320 --> 00:37:26.139
I would probably even argue sacred, about the

00:37:26.139 --> 00:37:29.250
dirt that their family has worked. for so long,

00:37:29.710 --> 00:37:31.489
and that that would hopefully lead them to a

00:37:31.489 --> 00:37:34.269
different outcome. And so, the economic factor

00:37:34.269 --> 00:37:38.730
is important, but it's not the telos, it's not

00:37:38.730 --> 00:37:41.289
the most important thing. And so, classical Christian

00:37:41.289 --> 00:37:44.269
education reframes that very thing going all

00:37:44.269 --> 00:37:46.050
the way back to what Christy said of what is

00:37:46.050 --> 00:37:49.650
most important, and it helps you think about

00:37:49.650 --> 00:37:53.030
what's most important as the glory of God and

00:37:53.030 --> 00:37:57.239
also loving my neighbor. And you have to order

00:37:57.239 --> 00:38:00.019
your loves. So who are your most immediate neighbors

00:38:00.019 --> 00:38:02.059
that you owe the most love and honor and respect

00:38:02.059 --> 00:38:05.440
to? It's your very own family, your very own

00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:07.920
community members, the people who live right

00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:10.780
next to you, your church members, the people

00:38:10.780 --> 00:38:13.559
who go to your school, the people who live in

00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:16.099
your county, and then your state, and you work

00:38:16.099 --> 00:38:19.960
out from there. You have national shared history,

00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:22.400
even with someone that lives 3 ,000 miles away,

00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:25.239
but who still lives in your nation versus someone

00:38:25.239 --> 00:38:29.769
who lives in another country and on and on. So,

00:38:29.769 --> 00:38:32.530
classical Christian education helps us think

00:38:32.530 --> 00:38:35.750
in a pietistic way and helps us think in a way

00:38:35.750 --> 00:38:39.230
that we would love and honor our neighbors in

00:38:39.230 --> 00:38:42.809
a way that that command gets totally twisted

00:38:42.809 --> 00:38:45.730
and seen in a totally different way when you

00:38:45.730 --> 00:38:48.750
go through a progressive secular education way

00:38:48.750 --> 00:38:51.190
when you're just thinking about, you think more

00:38:51.190 --> 00:38:54.409
in terms of economy and like more money is how

00:38:54.409 --> 00:38:56.789
you help more people even if those people are

00:38:56.789 --> 00:38:59.010
far away. And so it's just it's a totally different

00:38:59.010 --> 00:39:01.750
way of life that you've passed on. Yeah, I was

00:39:01.750 --> 00:39:05.409
just gonna say the idea of thinking through Piety

00:39:05.409 --> 00:39:07.530
in terms of concentric circles. You know, you

00:39:07.530 --> 00:39:10.530
mentioned why do I care about my countrymen more

00:39:10.530 --> 00:39:13.409
than the countrymen of another country? But I

00:39:13.409 --> 00:39:16.800
think we're very concerned about what happens

00:39:16.800 --> 00:39:19.139
in Great Britain because they're still Westerners.

00:39:19.260 --> 00:39:21.199
Now those are many concentra - That's where the

00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:23.139
vast majority of us came from. Absolutely. And

00:39:23.139 --> 00:39:26.280
so I don't have an obligation to the people in

00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:29.840
Scotland before the people of Cookville or of

00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:33.119
our county where we live. But at some point,

00:39:33.159 --> 00:39:35.420
I do care very much about them because they care

00:39:35.420 --> 00:39:37.780
about the West because I'm a Westerner and I

00:39:37.780 --> 00:39:39.880
understand what that means. And I understand

00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:42.360
it. It means a lot what happens in Great Britain.

00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:45.099
to me and to my people here. You're like, I understand

00:39:45.099 --> 00:39:47.679
those relationships because I've understood history

00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:50.519
from a logic perspective, right? Going back to

00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:54.139
the Trivium and Jeff to address, you know, the

00:39:54.139 --> 00:39:56.219
idea of fifth commandment. If we think about

00:39:56.219 --> 00:39:59.400
social ills or social status today in our country,

00:39:59.900 --> 00:40:01.500
I've said this many times, we've talked about

00:40:01.500 --> 00:40:04.219
this, that you really not to oversimplify, but

00:40:04.219 --> 00:40:07.079
you could really categorize the social ills of

00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:09.599
our day by saying it's all a fifth commandment

00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:14.199
violation. And we don't know who we are and we

00:40:14.199 --> 00:40:17.760
hate our fathers, right? Whether we're talking

00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:22.019
immediate fathers, which is largely true, we're

00:40:22.019 --> 00:40:24.039
talking about authorities over us, church authorities,

00:40:24.260 --> 00:40:26.639
those kinds of fathers, church fathers, the fathers

00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:28.780
of our country, right? You just think real practically

00:40:28.780 --> 00:40:33.139
taking down statues. you know, changing, um,

00:40:33.139 --> 00:40:34.900
who we should study or how we should study in

00:40:34.900 --> 00:40:38.500
the history classes because we hate who we are.

00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:40.960
And then again, thinking like, do we even, but

00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:43.480
do we know who we are? We lack a grammar understanding

00:40:43.480 --> 00:40:46.179
of that as well. And when you look at these,

00:40:46.179 --> 00:40:48.920
um, yes, shenanigans going on at universities,

00:40:49.019 --> 00:40:51.539
what you say is we have, um, we have a lot of

00:40:51.539 --> 00:40:53.500
daddy issues going on. We have fifth commandment

00:40:53.500 --> 00:40:55.480
violations. Well, and then to go back to the

00:40:55.480 --> 00:40:57.280
neighbor idea, I think that's one of the things

00:40:57.280 --> 00:40:59.980
that, you know, a lot of factors that led me

00:40:59.980 --> 00:41:04.239
here, but CC was part of that is that the neighbor

00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:06.739
i'm called love is also my grandfather my great

00:41:06.739 --> 00:41:09.460
grandfather my great great grandfather. Did they

00:41:09.460 --> 00:41:12.099
had goals and ambitions for their family and

00:41:12.099 --> 00:41:15.880
coming generations i'm not a self emerging project.

00:41:16.519 --> 00:41:19.440
That is supposed to just treat my world is informed

00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:22.239
but i'm the continuity of something that was

00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:24.659
good before me you know and i get it there's

00:41:24.659 --> 00:41:26.539
you know you make have been converted out of

00:41:26.539 --> 00:41:28.929
a family line of great degeneracy. But for those

00:41:28.929 --> 00:41:31.690
of us who have been handed good things, we have

00:41:31.690 --> 00:41:33.929
an obligation to the neighbor who tried to set

00:41:33.929 --> 00:41:36.730
us up well, right? And to continue the thing

00:41:36.730 --> 00:41:39.070
that they had begun. And that, in that Fifth

00:41:39.070 --> 00:41:42.349
Commandment sense, extends that, you know, as

00:41:42.349 --> 00:41:43.869
a son of the Reformation, even as a Baptist,

00:41:44.110 --> 00:41:46.869
Martin Luther is a kind of father to me. I have

00:41:46.869 --> 00:41:50.489
certain obligations to him because of the good

00:41:50.489 --> 00:41:52.869
that he in history did that came down to me.

00:41:53.210 --> 00:41:56.920
William Kiffin is an English Baptist. Robert

00:41:56.920 --> 00:42:00.539
E. Lee as a figure in my particular part of the

00:42:00.539 --> 00:42:03.300
country, in my region, I have an obligation to

00:42:03.300 --> 00:42:05.300
these people. I'm not disconnected from them.

00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:09.119
Sometime in my past, I worked at a church that

00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:12.019
felt very hamstrung because they had a cemetery

00:42:12.019 --> 00:42:16.239
on the grounds. There was a lot of bemoaning

00:42:16.239 --> 00:42:20.079
about that. And I eventually met a wiser Christian

00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:22.500
who said the reason that so many churches have

00:42:22.500 --> 00:42:25.980
graveyards is because they saw some of the churches

00:42:25.980 --> 00:42:30.119
outside the building in those graves and some

00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:32.179
inside the building worshiping the Lord now.

00:42:32.219 --> 00:42:35.960
But they were a body of continuity. And that's

00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:37.539
the kind of thing I'm thinking about. It's like

00:42:37.539 --> 00:42:40.139
a local cloud of witnesses just outside. Absolutely.

00:42:40.139 --> 00:42:43.500
That's so good. Exactly. And so CCE is self -conscious

00:42:43.500 --> 00:42:47.360
about this and says, hey, Aristotle may not meet

00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:50.079
me in New Jerusalem, but the Lord used him to

00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:52.320
produce some really good things. And we have

00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:55.119
an obligation to carry that forward and Virgil.

00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:58.039
And, you know, you name the list, then you eventually,

00:42:58.159 --> 00:43:01.559
as it goes from Athens to Rome to Jerusalem where

00:43:01.559 --> 00:43:07.599
Christ, apostles proclaim the gospel, now I get

00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:10.179
into a whole bunch of Christians who are making

00:43:10.179 --> 00:43:12.519
the best use of what God surfaced through the

00:43:12.519 --> 00:43:15.199
pagans and self -consciously deploying it to

00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:19.019
Christ's glory. That has an obligation upon me

00:43:19.019 --> 00:43:22.199
that's going to constrain my individual choices.

00:43:22.980 --> 00:43:27.119
I think the image of Aeneas carrying his father

00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:29.760
out of the burning city of Troy is really, really

00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:32.480
rich, but he also has in his hand his little

00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:35.090
boy. Right? And so you have, I mean, it's just

00:43:35.090 --> 00:43:36.929
a beautiful image of these things that we're

00:43:36.929 --> 00:43:39.690
talking about. You have, and of course, Aeneas

00:43:39.690 --> 00:43:45.409
is, you know, his whole mission is to carry his

00:43:45.409 --> 00:43:50.070
home, including his gods and his people, to a

00:43:50.070 --> 00:43:52.030
new place where, of course, they can flourish

00:43:52.030 --> 00:43:54.150
and continue. And so it's very generational.

00:43:54.869 --> 00:43:58.329
And of course, because of our day, we tend to

00:43:58.329 --> 00:44:00.889
think in terms of who am I as an individual?

00:44:03.569 --> 00:44:06.090
What's the verse in Jeremiah? God has plans for

00:44:06.090 --> 00:44:08.889
me. We just think about like me as an individual

00:44:08.889 --> 00:44:11.179
like I just woke up on the planet. you know,

00:44:11.300 --> 00:44:13.559
entirely by myself. I just, I think I got this

00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:15.639
stuff in youth group, right? Like what is God's

00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:19.440
plan just for me? And never really being asked

00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:21.519
to think what's your duty? What's your responsibility?

00:44:22.219 --> 00:44:25.840
In what ways do you owe God who made you, your

00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:28.880
parents who raised you, your forefathers and

00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:31.039
thinking through that in lots of ways, but your

00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:32.780
forefathers who came before you, what is your

00:44:32.780 --> 00:44:35.380
duty to them? And only when you understand that,

00:44:35.380 --> 00:44:37.599
can you look to the future and say, now, what

00:44:37.599 --> 00:44:40.199
is my duty to my own children, to the children

00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:42.139
of my neighbors? I just think about people who've

00:44:42.139 --> 00:44:43.760
started schools here, people involved in the

00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:46.539
local school, what is the duty to the children

00:44:46.539 --> 00:44:50.619
of my neighbors? And then how do we think, you

00:44:50.619 --> 00:44:52.940
know, do all of those things in light of having

00:44:52.940 --> 00:44:54.659
grandchildren and great grandchildren and great,

00:44:54.699 --> 00:44:56.400
great grandchildren? Well, and I won't keep us

00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:58.699
here forever, but, you know, as you're thinking

00:44:58.699 --> 00:45:01.239
through this, think about the phenomenon that

00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:04.039
is so aberrant in history that we see all around

00:45:04.039 --> 00:45:07.659
us of intentional childlessness. where an individual

00:45:07.659 --> 00:45:10.480
says, I won't have children, I won't reproduce.

00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:12.199
It's a fifth commandment violation. It's fifth

00:45:12.199 --> 00:45:14.599
commandment. And you think about the sacrifices

00:45:14.599 --> 00:45:17.659
that their grandparents made. I mean, you just

00:45:17.659 --> 00:45:19.280
think about history. You know Western history

00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:21.440
to some degree. Wherever you came from, they

00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:24.860
survived famines, they flee war, they worked

00:45:24.860 --> 00:45:29.139
multiple jobs to provide. They gave so much to

00:45:29.139 --> 00:45:32.420
the line that produced you. And then you, as

00:45:32.420 --> 00:45:35.420
this radically autonomous individual says, I

00:45:35.420 --> 00:45:38.320
will lop the line off here. That, in some ways,

00:45:38.619 --> 00:45:41.159
is Western culture in our day. We'll just lop

00:45:41.159 --> 00:45:43.420
the line off right here. And again, I know I

00:45:43.420 --> 00:45:44.800
keep going to literature, but it's just what

00:45:44.800 --> 00:45:48.280
I'm neck deep in most of the time right now with

00:45:48.280 --> 00:45:52.619
my classes. Today, I... taught the students the

00:45:52.619 --> 00:45:54.380
difference between a comedy and a tragedy. A

00:45:54.380 --> 00:45:56.460
comedy ends with a marriage, right? There are

00:45:56.460 --> 00:45:58.659
children. There's a hope for a future. It's not

00:45:58.659 --> 00:46:01.599
about I'm happy and in love with this person.

00:46:01.639 --> 00:46:03.400
We think about marriage in too narrow of a way.

00:46:03.619 --> 00:46:05.559
That could be part of it, sure, but it's not

00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:08.320
about you and your love for this other person.

00:46:08.380 --> 00:46:10.559
It's about the future, right? There's a bright

00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:14.800
future. A tragedy is when there is no death and

00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:16.840
resurrection like for the hero. It's when there

00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:19.969
is only death. There's no hope for the future.

00:46:20.309 --> 00:46:25.010
And so we are pursuing tragedy as a nation, as

00:46:25.010 --> 00:46:27.190
a people. And we're thinking about how to train

00:46:27.190 --> 00:46:30.429
children to think about not just what can they

00:46:30.429 --> 00:46:33.190
do, which is important. We have to do something

00:46:33.190 --> 00:46:37.050
with our time. But one way to think about classical

00:46:37.050 --> 00:46:38.889
Christian education is we're teaching children

00:46:38.889 --> 00:46:41.349
how to be, that enculturation, that paideia.

00:46:41.769 --> 00:46:44.809
What kind of person do I want my child to be?

00:46:46.599 --> 00:46:48.599
That doesn't matter if there are no children,

00:46:48.860 --> 00:46:50.840
if there is no future. It assumes that there

00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:53.260
has to be a future. And what kind of children

00:46:53.260 --> 00:46:55.619
do I want my great -great -grandchildren to be?

00:46:56.179 --> 00:46:58.840
Yeah, you're the link in the chain. The fifth

00:46:58.840 --> 00:47:00.500
commandment works both ways. So we've kind of

00:47:00.500 --> 00:47:02.639
been talking about this. You're honoring all

00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:05.619
those who have came before so that you can pass

00:47:05.619 --> 00:47:08.460
on that way of life to your inferiors, right?

00:47:08.460 --> 00:47:11.059
To the next generation in hopes that they will

00:47:11.059 --> 00:47:17.039
do the same. And we do this as humans. But it

00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:19.579
is the Lord who has taught us this, and it is

00:47:19.579 --> 00:47:23.239
the Lord who has not only explicitly taught us

00:47:23.239 --> 00:47:25.679
this in His commands, He also modeled this by

00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:28.360
being faithful even to His own people when they

00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:32.420
were unfaithful, right? So I've been reading

00:47:32.420 --> 00:47:35.980
through 1 and 2 Kings with the boys and with

00:47:35.980 --> 00:47:41.739
my boys at home, and they're just always devastated

00:47:41.739 --> 00:47:44.610
every time there's a new king. because I'll say,

00:47:44.750 --> 00:47:47.610
and so and so became king, and he did, and they'll

00:47:47.610 --> 00:47:49.789
go evil in the sight of the Lord, because it's

00:47:49.789 --> 00:47:51.949
almost always evil in the sight of the Lord.

00:47:52.349 --> 00:47:54.409
And then they get to the end of that king's time,

00:47:54.550 --> 00:47:57.369
and it says he dies, and then it'll say something

00:47:57.369 --> 00:48:01.110
about why the Lord didn't punish them. And last

00:48:01.110 --> 00:48:03.329
night we were reading, and it says, but the Lord

00:48:03.329 --> 00:48:05.909
did not punish them because of his love for Abraham

00:48:05.909 --> 00:48:09.820
and Isaac and Jacob. earlier in a couple chapters

00:48:09.820 --> 00:48:12.420
back, after the death of another king, it said,

00:48:12.760 --> 00:48:14.980
but the Lord didn't punish them because of His

00:48:14.980 --> 00:48:18.380
promise to King David. And the thing I talked

00:48:18.380 --> 00:48:22.280
about with the boys is, what are those promises?

00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:25.559
And they were able to deduce just through questioning

00:48:25.559 --> 00:48:28.219
themselves, trying to teach them classically.

00:48:29.179 --> 00:48:31.760
that it's the same promise, that it's just a

00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:33.539
different aspect of the same promise, that God

00:48:33.539 --> 00:48:36.780
promised that he would do something through Abraham,

00:48:36.960 --> 00:48:38.739
that he would bless the entire world, all the

00:48:38.739 --> 00:48:41.260
nations, and that he promised King David that

00:48:41.260 --> 00:48:43.099
he would have a son who would always sit on the

00:48:43.099 --> 00:48:46.500
throne. And so, he was faithful. He is generationally

00:48:46.500 --> 00:48:50.539
faithful, even when we are generationally unfaithful.

00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:52.860
And so, he is the one who has been faithful,

00:48:52.900 --> 00:48:55.360
and he is the one who teaches us how to do that

00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:58.019
too, how to be faithful too. those who have came

00:48:58.019 --> 00:49:00.980
before. It's why all of the Old Testament is

00:49:00.980 --> 00:49:04.380
full of God saying, remember, I am the God who

00:49:04.380 --> 00:49:06.940
brought you out of Egypt, therefore obey my commands.

00:49:07.300 --> 00:49:10.239
It's like I have saved you, therefore worship

00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:12.860
me, therefore obey my commands, therefore love

00:49:12.860 --> 00:49:16.099
me. And it's the same story all the way through.

00:49:16.679 --> 00:49:18.940
And there was a promise that that Son would come

00:49:18.940 --> 00:49:21.460
and all the nations will be blessed. And then

00:49:21.460 --> 00:49:23.539
Christ has come and He has done that and continues

00:49:23.539 --> 00:49:25.719
to do that. He continues to bless the nations.

00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:28.659
And Christ is the Son who will sit on the throne

00:49:28.659 --> 00:49:31.519
forever. And so, classical Christian education

00:49:31.519 --> 00:49:35.940
is about recognizing that and about saying, okay,

00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:38.780
we're not God. We can't be generationally faithful

00:49:38.780 --> 00:49:42.579
in that way. We are not redeemers in the sense,

00:49:42.760 --> 00:49:45.159
obviously, of cosmic redemption that Christ is.

00:49:46.019 --> 00:49:49.679
But how can we be like Him and showing that kind

00:49:49.679 --> 00:49:52.849
of love and generational faithfulness? Well,

00:49:52.849 --> 00:49:54.610
and I would stake out here again, just trying

00:49:54.610 --> 00:49:56.949
to use helpful contrast. So I had a buddy who

00:49:56.949 --> 00:50:00.269
lived, he's a faithful churchman, great guy.

00:50:00.869 --> 00:50:02.429
He lives in a different part of Tennessee. And

00:50:02.429 --> 00:50:04.469
he said, give me a call. I want to talk to you

00:50:04.469 --> 00:50:06.170
about starting a Christian school, not necessarily

00:50:06.170 --> 00:50:08.530
a class school, but a Christian school. And brother,

00:50:08.530 --> 00:50:09.809
if you're listening, you're about to find out

00:50:09.809 --> 00:50:11.969
what I'm going to talk to you about. This is

00:50:11.969 --> 00:50:16.869
why I've kind of locked in on CCE and CCE alone,

00:50:17.369 --> 00:50:21.210
because I recognize a lot of good has been done

00:50:21.210 --> 00:50:23.320
through what we would call traditional Christian

00:50:23.320 --> 00:50:27.679
education. But we're not striving for like, okay,

00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:29.480
what's some good we can get? We want the best.

00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:31.239
We want the best for our families. We want the

00:50:31.239 --> 00:50:32.679
best for our communities. We want the best for

00:50:32.679 --> 00:50:35.119
our churches. What's good enough isn't good enough,

00:50:35.539 --> 00:50:38.019
right? And I hope the listener in this conversation

00:50:38.019 --> 00:50:42.039
is hearing how CCE pushes you to this deep, immersive,

00:50:42.420 --> 00:50:47.300
comprehensive vision of Christ over all and Christ

00:50:47.300 --> 00:50:52.170
in all. The contrast I would make if you're saying,

00:50:52.389 --> 00:50:54.909
well, okay, I get why you prefer this to progressive

00:50:54.909 --> 00:50:58.750
education. I also prefer this to a Christian

00:50:58.750 --> 00:51:01.510
school that kind of treats each subject autonomously,

00:51:01.610 --> 00:51:05.269
then has a Bible class as part of the curriculum.

00:51:06.210 --> 00:51:09.750
Because for CCE, you can't understand anything

00:51:09.750 --> 00:51:13.889
apart from Christ. The reason arithmetic works

00:51:13.889 --> 00:51:16.889
is because Christ is Lord and orders his creation

00:51:16.889 --> 00:51:19.670
and it's supposed to do something to serve his

00:51:19.670 --> 00:51:22.809
kingdom. And so it's not this like additional

00:51:22.809 --> 00:51:25.929
optional accessory that you can lay onto the

00:51:25.929 --> 00:51:29.739
curriculum map. but every subject is suffused

00:51:29.739 --> 00:51:31.980
with Christ. You know, we talk about Him as the

00:51:31.980 --> 00:51:34.880
deepest root of truth and the highest expression

00:51:34.880 --> 00:51:37.500
of it. And that holds true for virtue, that holds

00:51:37.500 --> 00:51:41.599
true for beauty. And so CCE done as a Christian

00:51:41.599 --> 00:51:46.340
project pushes you to say everything can only

00:51:46.340 --> 00:51:49.670
be understood in light of Christ. And if you're

00:51:49.670 --> 00:51:52.969
not doing it that way, you're actually not interfacing

00:51:52.969 --> 00:51:56.070
with reality, because this is how reality is

00:51:56.070 --> 00:51:59.150
constructed. It's for Christ. It's through Christ.

00:51:59.269 --> 00:52:01.789
It's in Christ's kingdom. It's His reign. And

00:52:01.789 --> 00:52:05.010
if you're not going at it from that angle, you're

00:52:05.010 --> 00:52:09.590
missing the most substantial part of the education.

00:52:13.969 --> 00:52:16.929
all of the worst parts of the progressive education

00:52:16.929 --> 00:52:18.989
that we talked about. You're talking about the

00:52:18.989 --> 00:52:20.889
kind of Christian school that like has Bible

00:52:20.889 --> 00:52:22.489
as a class. Correct. That model that just kind

00:52:22.489 --> 00:52:26.409
of attacks Bible on. I mean, it's better than

00:52:26.409 --> 00:52:29.590
government school. You know, I think we all would

00:52:29.590 --> 00:52:33.329
admit and agree to that, but it's just not as

00:52:33.329 --> 00:52:36.150
robust as it should be. So when you're learning

00:52:36.150 --> 00:52:38.860
math in a school like that, If you're still not

00:52:38.860 --> 00:52:42.079
learning one plus one equals two is a valuable

00:52:42.079 --> 00:52:45.840
thing to know because that is how God has spoke

00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:47.880
His world into existence, and those are the laws

00:52:47.880 --> 00:52:50.800
by which His world works, and learning that math

00:52:50.800 --> 00:52:55.440
is to glorify Him, then you will learn that math

00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:57.739
for some other end. And that other end might

00:52:57.739 --> 00:53:00.840
be, you know, I'm going to end up being a I'm

00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:02.179
going to end up being a carpenter one day or

00:53:02.179 --> 00:53:04.019
an engineer or something, and you'll still learn

00:53:04.019 --> 00:53:05.739
the math and you'll still be able to build things

00:53:05.739 --> 00:53:07.760
and they'll still be structurally sound, but

00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:11.239
you're still using the tools that God has given

00:53:11.239 --> 00:53:14.980
you to work with. And so, what classical Christian

00:53:14.980 --> 00:53:18.460
education does is helps you understand not only

00:53:18.460 --> 00:53:21.219
the math and how to build things, but what should

00:53:21.219 --> 00:53:23.300
I be building and why should I be building it

00:53:23.300 --> 00:53:26.099
and who should I be building it for? What purpose

00:53:26.099 --> 00:53:30.010
should it serve? And so, There are many people

00:53:30.010 --> 00:53:32.789
who have built things that are evil by using

00:53:32.789 --> 00:53:36.429
the same math. And then there are people who

00:53:36.429 --> 00:53:38.110
have built things that are lovely and beautiful

00:53:38.110 --> 00:53:41.769
and glorious who have understood why they should

00:53:41.769 --> 00:53:46.349
be building in the first place. And so it's the

00:53:46.349 --> 00:53:48.869
telos of who you are also translates into the

00:53:48.869 --> 00:53:52.230
telos of the outworking of your hands once you

00:53:52.230 --> 00:53:55.789
start actually, you know, doing various sorts

00:53:55.789 --> 00:53:59.239
of work or vocation. Well, I'd go back to something

00:53:59.239 --> 00:54:01.800
Terry said about earlier, way earlier in the

00:54:01.800 --> 00:54:04.739
episode, is STEM part of classical Christian

00:54:04.739 --> 00:54:07.880
education, right? And we tend to think broadly

00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:11.400
of STEM as technology development and utilization,

00:54:11.920 --> 00:54:14.420
right? And Terry, maybe I'll just let you talk

00:54:14.420 --> 00:54:17.159
about this more, if I can cue you up the way

00:54:17.159 --> 00:54:20.219
I wanted to with Nick. You raised the point that

00:54:20.219 --> 00:54:22.139
nobody knows phone numbers because we have cell

00:54:22.139 --> 00:54:24.579
phones, right? And y 'all tell me was it Aristotle

00:54:24.579 --> 00:54:26.980
who didn't like books because it would ruin their

00:54:26.980 --> 00:54:30.059
Socrates. You can't have a conversation with

00:54:30.059 --> 00:54:32.099
a book any more than you can have a conversation

00:54:32.099 --> 00:54:34.460
with a statue. So he didn't write anything down.

00:54:34.880 --> 00:54:36.500
Yeah, he thought if we started writing stuff

00:54:36.500 --> 00:54:38.519
down, we'd never be able to remember anything.

00:54:38.880 --> 00:54:40.659
Yeah, and I'm probably more Luddite than I've

00:54:40.659 --> 00:54:42.280
ever been, but we're probably not quite that

00:54:42.280 --> 00:54:43.860
Luddite, right? We're very thankful for books.

00:54:43.880 --> 00:54:46.480
We spend a lot of time with books. But Terry,

00:54:46.500 --> 00:54:50.139
to the point about STEM, You have to, you have

00:54:50.139 --> 00:54:52.300
to have a human being who one knows what a tool

00:54:52.300 --> 00:54:55.860
is for, what liabilities and what strengths it

00:54:55.860 --> 00:54:57.420
brings to you. So you think about a world that

00:54:57.420 --> 00:55:01.099
right now is either terrified or idolatrously

00:55:01.099 --> 00:55:04.980
in love with AI. What kind of human being do

00:55:04.980 --> 00:55:08.539
you want to create that knows what to do with

00:55:08.539 --> 00:55:11.539
artificial intelligence? So it's not that we're

00:55:11.539 --> 00:55:14.239
anti -tool. It's that we recognize tools take

00:55:14.239 --> 00:55:16.159
certain options off the table and they put certain

00:55:16.159 --> 00:55:19.329
options back on the table. These are the kind

00:55:19.329 --> 00:55:21.429
of people we want handling the tools. I need

00:55:21.429 --> 00:55:23.050
somebody who can think about what the tool is

00:55:23.050 --> 00:55:26.469
for and to what end it should be used. And also

00:55:26.469 --> 00:55:29.409
what dangers that tool brings. Yeah, all new

00:55:29.409 --> 00:55:32.090
technology is inherently double edged, right?

00:55:32.889 --> 00:55:35.050
We kind of sometimes joke about how the internet

00:55:35.050 --> 00:55:36.969
should just be shut down, right? Because it's

00:55:36.969 --> 00:55:39.530
just a cesspool. Seconded. And yet here we are

00:55:39.530 --> 00:55:41.889
with a podcast that most people will probably

00:55:41.889 --> 00:55:43.969
reach via the internet. And we use it all the

00:55:43.969 --> 00:55:45.929
time to stay in contact with loved ones, to find

00:55:45.929 --> 00:55:48.670
good information that is about true things. We

00:55:48.670 --> 00:55:52.789
use it as a resource for teaching. And so there

00:55:52.789 --> 00:55:56.550
are good things that come from phones, computers,

00:55:56.809 --> 00:55:59.730
internet, those kinds of things. And we bemoan

00:55:59.730 --> 00:56:01.869
the negative influences of those things, but

00:56:01.869 --> 00:56:06.559
also that's because humans are involved. So AI

00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:08.360
will be like this, it's just gonna be like every

00:56:08.360 --> 00:56:11.639
other technology in that way, where it can be

00:56:11.639 --> 00:56:13.199
used for great good, it can be used for great

00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:16.199
evil, and I want somebody, before I even know,

00:56:16.460 --> 00:56:18.619
you know, train somebody on how to use this tool,

00:56:19.139 --> 00:56:20.940
I need somebody who can recognize evil when they

00:56:20.940 --> 00:56:24.280
see it, and know how to avoid it, and has their

00:56:24.280 --> 00:56:27.960
order, their loves properly ordered, so that

00:56:27.960 --> 00:56:29.000
when they're using a tool - And understand humans

00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:30.960
who would be impacted by it, right? Yes, yes,

00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:33.900
and that they can use a tool to extend their

00:56:33.900 --> 00:56:37.670
skill and usefulness, towards a good end, a truly

00:56:37.670 --> 00:56:43.889
good end. I was trying to find a recent social

00:56:43.889 --> 00:56:46.670
media post by Elon Musk, who I do not think was

00:56:46.670 --> 00:56:48.289
classically educated, although I don't know and

00:56:48.289 --> 00:56:54.389
I do not know that he was a Christian. He says

00:56:54.389 --> 00:56:57.130
he respects the teachings of Christ, but I have

00:56:57.130 --> 00:57:00.650
not seen him respect the teaching that your sins

00:57:00.650 --> 00:57:03.889
must be repented. So I don't hold him up as a

00:57:03.889 --> 00:57:05.269
model. I haven't seen the fruit of that in his

00:57:05.269 --> 00:57:07.130
life thus far. Well, we're talking about tech,

00:57:07.369 --> 00:57:08.750
right? We're talking about tech, which is why

00:57:08.750 --> 00:57:13.570
I bring him up. He reposted, in case you guys

00:57:13.570 --> 00:57:15.949
weren't listening, he kind of reposted something

00:57:15.949 --> 00:57:19.909
where he says AI is going to be bringing in an

00:57:19.909 --> 00:57:21.940
age of great wealth. I'm sure you guys have read

00:57:21.940 --> 00:57:23.820
him on this subject. Um, there's going to be

00:57:23.820 --> 00:57:25.559
healthcare like you've never seen before. There's

00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:27.940
going to be, um, all these things available.

00:57:28.079 --> 00:57:30.440
Humanity will never have seen wealth like this

00:57:30.440 --> 00:57:32.699
ever, ever, ever super optimistic. And of course

00:57:32.699 --> 00:57:35.119
I read that and I'm like, uh, I don't know. But

00:57:35.119 --> 00:57:37.000
at the end, and he said this in many different

00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:38.920
ways, I'm sure. But at the end of this particular

00:57:38.920 --> 00:57:42.639
post, he said, but this is only true if Grok,

00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:45.800
um, his, his particular AI, if Grok is trained

00:57:45.800 --> 00:57:48.139
on truth, beauty and goodness. And I was like,

00:57:48.219 --> 00:57:51.130
ah, He, he gets it. Somebody's talking to him.

00:57:51.230 --> 00:57:53.170
Somebody's talking to him. Contrast that with,

00:57:53.170 --> 00:57:56.369
um, Sam Albury. Altman. Altman. Altman. Thank

00:57:56.369 --> 00:57:59.309
you. Different kind of guy. It's a different

00:57:59.309 --> 00:58:03.190
contrast. Um, you know, in a, uh, kind of a recent

00:58:03.190 --> 00:58:05.269
interview with Tucker Carlson, he's talking all

00:58:05.269 --> 00:58:08.849
about chat GPT and all the capabilities and Tucker's

00:58:08.849 --> 00:58:11.730
like, You know, what about some basic ethics?

00:58:11.849 --> 00:58:13.969
And he's like, uh, hadn't thought about it. Literally

00:58:13.969 --> 00:58:16.690
had no category. And he's like, okay. Tucker

00:58:16.690 --> 00:58:18.750
keeps like breaking it down and he's like smaller

00:58:18.750 --> 00:58:22.250
bites. He's like, so basically is it, is it good

00:58:22.250 --> 00:58:26.469
or could it ever be bad? And Altman's like, I'm

00:58:26.469 --> 00:58:29.110
just not a philosopher. I don't know. And I'm

00:58:29.110 --> 00:58:33.050
thinking this guy is leading, um, the tech front,

00:58:33.349 --> 00:58:34.889
you know, one of the guys leading the tech front

00:58:34.889 --> 00:58:39.030
for our people. And he doesn't understand that

00:58:39.030 --> 00:58:41.730
he should be thinking about ethics or philosophy

00:58:41.730 --> 00:58:44.449
just for him. It was like, yeah, I just didn't

00:58:44.449 --> 00:58:46.849
know. I hadn't thought about it wrong or irrelevant.

00:58:46.849 --> 00:58:50.150
Yeah. Basically like, well, we told it to stop

00:58:50.150 --> 00:58:53.090
telling people how to commit suicide. Yeah. But

00:58:53.090 --> 00:58:54.610
they probably wouldn't have done that if somebody

00:58:54.610 --> 00:58:57.309
hadn't bothered them about it, you know, right?

00:58:57.429 --> 00:58:59.050
Well, so I'll give another illustration just

00:58:59.050 --> 00:59:01.469
if, if listeners want to think about this practically

00:59:01.469 --> 00:59:05.880
one of the Concurrent factors with AI is the

00:59:05.880 --> 00:59:08.440
idea that humanity is basically going to be displaced

00:59:08.440 --> 00:59:11.019
from any of a meaningful vocation Somebody's

00:59:11.019 --> 00:59:13.880
got to work to subdue the earth So what we'll

00:59:13.880 --> 00:59:15.559
need to do is provide them a universal basic

00:59:15.559 --> 00:59:18.119
income and that way they can still have earning

00:59:18.119 --> 00:59:20.820
earning purchasing power You know the economy

00:59:20.820 --> 00:59:23.760
will keep moving or whatever Well, you need someone

00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:25.900
and I don't mean to indicate that I've settled

00:59:25.900 --> 00:59:29.179
this but you need someone who knows humanity

00:59:29.179 --> 00:59:32.739
The kind of person who knows humanity through

00:59:32.989 --> 00:59:36.769
CCE education to say well, but humans are made

00:59:36.769 --> 00:59:40.349
to work What happens to the human who's permanently

00:59:40.349 --> 00:59:43.190
put on the bench and unable to make a meaningful

00:59:43.190 --> 00:59:47.329
impact on? Their world is that survivable for

00:59:47.329 --> 00:59:49.829
humans? So it may sound great for you to get

00:59:49.829 --> 00:59:51.670
X number of dollars from the government so you

00:59:51.670 --> 00:59:54.789
can buy the next PlayStation generation and use

00:59:54.789 --> 00:59:58.170
your time completely on leisure But is it actually

00:59:58.170 --> 01:00:01.639
survivable for humans? I mean, I have my conclusions

01:00:01.639 --> 01:00:04.260
and my suspicions on that, but you need somebody

01:00:04.260 --> 01:00:07.559
asking those kind of questions of the tools and

01:00:07.559 --> 01:00:09.559
the strategies that are being birthed in this

01:00:09.559 --> 01:00:11.400
moment in history. And that gets back to the

01:00:11.400 --> 01:00:13.920
original three questions, right? Who am I? Why

01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:16.420
am I here? Those kinds of philosophical questions.

01:00:16.659 --> 01:00:18.739
And if you know answers to those, or if you know

01:00:18.739 --> 01:00:21.820
how to ponder those things with meaning. you

01:00:21.820 --> 01:00:23.199
probably are going to have an opinion on that

01:00:23.199 --> 01:00:25.820
question. One of the tenets of classical Christian

01:00:25.820 --> 01:00:29.579
education is this integration of subjects and

01:00:29.579 --> 01:00:32.539
you cannot answer those questions without a firm

01:00:32.539 --> 01:00:34.840
grasp of how these subjects are interrelated

01:00:34.840 --> 01:00:36.960
and dependent and then of course you cannot act

01:00:37.420 --> 01:00:40.840
in society for the good of yourself and for your

01:00:40.840 --> 01:00:43.340
neighbor, thinking real practically about AI.

01:00:43.780 --> 01:00:46.300
You cannot do that without integrating. That's

01:00:46.300 --> 01:00:48.000
how you get this guy like Sam Altman saying,

01:00:48.159 --> 01:00:50.159
I don't know, I'm just a tech guy. I'm not the

01:00:50.159 --> 01:00:52.500
philosopher. He's not had two thoughts about

01:00:52.500 --> 01:00:54.920
ethics. That's a travesty. That's where my mind

01:00:54.920 --> 01:00:57.679
went to, Christy, the command to love your neighbor

01:00:57.679 --> 01:01:00.699
and love your Lord. Those can't be meaningfully

01:01:00.699 --> 01:01:03.219
pursued without those three fundamental questions

01:01:03.219 --> 01:01:06.150
you raised earlier. And you also have to remember

01:01:06.150 --> 01:01:10.630
that the command to love others is to love yourself,

01:01:11.010 --> 01:01:14.190
to love them as you love yourself. Well, what

01:01:14.190 --> 01:01:17.289
does it mean for me to love myself? In what way

01:01:17.289 --> 01:01:20.769
do I know myself? And what is my telos in the

01:01:20.769 --> 01:01:23.449
universe? You can't practice basic Christianity

01:01:23.449 --> 01:01:26.070
without being pushed to these, what we would

01:01:26.070 --> 01:01:28.630
call the great questions, the questions that

01:01:28.630 --> 01:01:31.360
humanity's wrestled with. you know, forever.

01:01:31.539 --> 01:01:33.340
It's part of the reason we study the literature

01:01:33.340 --> 01:01:35.059
we do. We call it the great tradition because

01:01:35.059 --> 01:01:37.579
they're wrestling with these ideas. But, you

01:01:37.579 --> 01:01:39.039
know, if you were going to be like, let's just

01:01:39.039 --> 01:01:42.260
boil down Christianity to essential moral commands.

01:01:42.800 --> 01:01:46.380
Love neighbor, love God. Well, immediately. I'm

01:01:46.380 --> 01:01:48.659
supposed to love my neighbor according to what

01:01:48.659 --> 01:01:51.039
definition of love? Give them whatever they want?

01:01:51.550 --> 01:01:53.150
and whatever they think feels good in the moment,

01:01:53.170 --> 01:01:55.250
or is there some kind of higher standard that

01:01:55.250 --> 01:01:57.769
we all conform to that we can thrive in? What

01:01:57.769 --> 01:02:00.070
does it mean to love them as I love myself, particularly

01:02:00.070 --> 01:02:02.570
if I'm self -loathing in the way you're talking

01:02:02.570 --> 01:02:04.849
about with our culture, where we tear down our

01:02:04.849 --> 01:02:08.769
fathers? I mean, nuts and bolts Christianity

01:02:08.769 --> 01:02:11.389
can't be pursued without something like this.

01:02:11.500 --> 01:02:14.320
Inquiry of these questions and I think it's really

01:02:14.320 --> 01:02:16.320
helpful for students to be put into an environment

01:02:16.320 --> 01:02:18.599
that's self -consciously going Okay, we're going

01:02:18.599 --> 01:02:22.559
to spend our time thinking about this in their

01:02:22.559 --> 01:02:25.940
formative years Let me shift gears if I can because

01:02:25.940 --> 01:02:28.320
this has all been very good and from the outside

01:02:28.320 --> 01:02:30.940
looking in a person looking at a classical Christian

01:02:30.940 --> 01:02:34.380
school It's gonna see some some idiosyncrasies,

01:02:34.380 --> 01:02:37.119
right? So let's talk about a couple of those.

01:02:37.119 --> 01:02:39.440
We'll start with this one. Why are they all doing

01:02:39.440 --> 01:02:44.079
Latin? or Greek, some of them do Greek. What

01:02:44.079 --> 01:02:45.460
are we doing here? Like, why aren't we teaching

01:02:45.460 --> 01:02:49.260
Spanish or Chinese or computer coding? Why Latin?

01:02:50.599 --> 01:02:54.199
I have the sarcastic answer. Send it. Hurt children.

01:02:55.179 --> 01:02:57.820
I actually was talking to a mom recently about

01:02:57.820 --> 01:03:00.059
this and raising up middle schoolers. I said,

01:03:00.179 --> 01:03:02.179
you have to contrive. In our world, we're so

01:03:02.179 --> 01:03:04.679
wealthy. We have so many technological advances

01:03:04.679 --> 01:03:07.000
that we have to contrive ways for our children

01:03:07.000 --> 01:03:09.960
to be miserable. So that's my, that's my pithy

01:03:09.960 --> 01:03:12.719
answer. No, that's somebody step in and do better

01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:15.440
than that. It's not working at my house because

01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:17.940
my boy does the pick the dick, the Latin and

01:03:17.940 --> 01:03:20.719
he loves it. Well, that must be nice. He just

01:03:20.719 --> 01:03:25.480
does it for fun. That's an option. I've been

01:03:25.480 --> 01:03:28.179
told that's an option. That is an option. I mean,

01:03:28.199 --> 01:03:31.699
can I suggest. the fifth commandment again. Okay,

01:03:31.900 --> 01:03:34.480
yes, this is a reason. It's the mother tongue.

01:03:34.579 --> 01:03:36.119
That's what I would say. It's who we are. Yeah,

01:03:36.119 --> 01:03:38.199
much of our civilization has been passed down

01:03:38.199 --> 01:03:40.599
from Rome, which obviously Rome had lots of problems

01:03:40.599 --> 01:03:43.380
from a Christian perspective, but we have derived

01:03:43.380 --> 01:03:46.820
a lot of our understanding of justice, order,

01:03:47.559 --> 01:03:52.599
society. Our definition for piety was extremely

01:03:52.599 --> 01:03:55.199
important to the Romans. I mean, you could translate

01:03:55.199 --> 01:03:57.440
it almost as duty. They're almost interchangeable

01:03:57.440 --> 01:04:00.429
in the Roman mind. And so, yeah, it's our mother

01:04:00.429 --> 01:04:04.110
tongue. This was also the lingua franca for generations

01:04:04.110 --> 01:04:07.710
where classical universities existed in Europe.

01:04:08.170 --> 01:04:10.110
You may travel to one. You may be from England.

01:04:10.170 --> 01:04:11.989
You may travel to France and go to a classical

01:04:11.989 --> 01:04:13.369
university, but you knew you were going to be

01:04:13.369 --> 01:04:15.610
fine because everybody spoke Latin. Their native

01:04:15.610 --> 01:04:18.469
tongue may be German or, you know, Romanian or

01:04:18.469 --> 01:04:20.670
whatever it is, but everybody knows Latin. And

01:04:20.670 --> 01:04:23.019
this is how... This is how they were educated.

01:04:23.699 --> 01:04:27.599
And in the old days, before the advent of modern

01:04:27.599 --> 01:04:30.460
progressive education, the subjects that were

01:04:30.460 --> 01:04:33.960
taught were mathematics, Greek, and Latin. And

01:04:33.960 --> 01:04:37.199
the reason was because all of the great works

01:04:37.199 --> 01:04:40.519
of literature wherein the other disciplines were

01:04:40.519 --> 01:04:43.920
found were written in Greek and Latin. And so

01:04:43.920 --> 01:04:46.519
you needed those subjects, not just for their

01:04:46.519 --> 01:04:49.539
own right, which they are of value in their own

01:04:49.539 --> 01:04:52.079
right, but also so that you could access the

01:04:52.079 --> 01:04:56.059
great tradition. So that's a reason as well.

01:04:56.239 --> 01:04:57.559
And it's kind of connected to what you're talking

01:04:57.559 --> 01:04:59.559
about. Another one. Lewis says that the reason

01:04:59.559 --> 01:05:01.800
to study Latin is that you get the opportunity

01:05:01.800 --> 01:05:04.320
to read the Latin poets. Yeah. And you could

01:05:04.320 --> 01:05:06.940
say Greek is the same. Greek is less common.

01:05:07.119 --> 01:05:09.260
I think Greek, finding somebody who knows actual

01:05:09.260 --> 01:05:12.639
Attic Greek or classical Greek is, there's a

01:05:12.639 --> 01:05:14.119
lot of people running around that know Koine

01:05:14.119 --> 01:05:16.619
because that's what the New Testament was written

01:05:16.619 --> 01:05:20.380
in. And it's a little different, but that would

01:05:20.380 --> 01:05:22.780
also be worth pursuing. But Latin is the more

01:05:22.780 --> 01:05:25.199
common one. Now, another one. I was just having

01:05:25.199 --> 01:05:26.860
a conversation earlier with our Latin teacher

01:05:26.860 --> 01:05:31.159
about a particular example of Roman orderliness

01:05:31.159 --> 01:05:33.519
of thought that appears in their language. And

01:05:33.519 --> 01:05:36.320
he was talking about a particular grammar construction

01:05:36.320 --> 01:05:41.739
that Latin has an ability to very clearly articulate.

01:05:42.019 --> 01:05:45.570
And the English equivalent, which is very ambiguous

01:05:45.570 --> 01:05:47.809
and hard to understand. We have to use 20 words

01:05:47.809 --> 01:05:50.349
where the Romans have like one preposition to

01:05:50.349 --> 01:05:53.389
accomplish the same thing. So there's an orderliness

01:05:53.389 --> 01:05:57.210
to the thoughts of the Roman mind that probably

01:05:57.210 --> 01:05:59.130
contributed to the development of the language.

01:05:59.630 --> 01:06:02.190
And then the two probably fed each other, right?

01:06:02.250 --> 01:06:03.989
The way that you, when they learned to speak,

01:06:04.190 --> 01:06:06.269
it also helped shape their thinking. It came

01:06:06.269 --> 01:06:09.369
out in their architecture. Yeah. And their thoughts

01:06:09.369 --> 01:06:11.150
of society, like these things that we're talking

01:06:11.150 --> 01:06:14.079
about adopting and bringing along from from their

01:06:14.079 --> 01:06:17.539
civilization. Another reason why Latin can be

01:06:17.539 --> 01:06:20.860
used is because it teaches the tools needed to

01:06:20.860 --> 01:06:24.980
learn language in a general sense. I often find

01:06:24.980 --> 01:06:28.400
myself when discussing Latin with students thinking,

01:06:28.519 --> 01:06:30.000
all right, well, what's the English version of

01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:33.920
this? Do you know what a direct object is? That's

01:06:33.920 --> 01:06:35.320
where you start. And you say, OK, here's how

01:06:35.320 --> 01:06:38.380
you do this in Latin. But it increases and enhances

01:06:38.380 --> 01:06:40.800
their ability to use their own native tongue.

01:06:41.130 --> 01:06:43.530
And then they can carry these tools into really

01:06:43.530 --> 01:06:46.309
any language they want because human beings communicate

01:06:46.309 --> 01:06:49.250
the same kind of concepts to each other, regardless

01:06:49.250 --> 01:06:52.309
of language. And now you've got the tools to

01:06:52.309 --> 01:06:54.230
study any language you want. And many of the

01:06:54.230 --> 01:06:57.250
languages are based on Latin. Sure. Yeah. So

01:06:57.250 --> 01:07:00.230
that's the practicality in me. Yeah. Well, and

01:07:00.230 --> 01:07:03.590
Terry, if I could kind of piggyback on your idiosyncrasy

01:07:03.590 --> 01:07:07.730
point there. And again, I just need to qualify

01:07:07.730 --> 01:07:09.849
that not every opinion I say reflects everybody

01:07:09.849 --> 01:07:13.269
else in the room. But hopefully the listeners

01:07:13.269 --> 01:07:15.329
like, oh yeah, CCE sounds great. I'm interested

01:07:15.329 --> 01:07:17.349
in that, right? Well, that's been happening now

01:07:17.349 --> 01:07:20.449
for several decades. It's become fashionable.

01:07:20.710 --> 01:07:23.409
It's trendy. There's a, you know, there's a CCE

01:07:23.409 --> 01:07:26.090
proponent serving in the current administration

01:07:26.090 --> 01:07:29.289
with their president. And so one of the things

01:07:29.289 --> 01:07:30.969
I would tell someone who's like had their appetite

01:07:30.969 --> 01:07:33.110
wetted for this is that it's become trendy enough

01:07:33.110 --> 01:07:36.550
to be counterfeited. Yes. And if you're inquiring

01:07:36.550 --> 01:07:39.369
and wanting to find what we're talking about,

01:07:39.530 --> 01:07:42.730
the idiosyncrasies are your way to find the authentic.

01:07:43.369 --> 01:07:46.889
And so you're going to have CCE schools that

01:07:46.889 --> 01:07:51.690
think they're CCE because they read the Aeneid,

01:07:51.690 --> 01:07:55.070
right? But what you're looking for listener is

01:07:55.070 --> 01:07:57.809
a school that's unapologetic about Latin education,

01:07:58.309 --> 01:08:01.690
unapologetic about academic rigor. unapologetic

01:08:01.690 --> 01:08:04.489
about reading dead white guys, unapologetic about

01:08:04.489 --> 01:08:06.989
the things that make us distinct as a classical

01:08:06.989 --> 01:08:10.090
school, and not the school that is saying, let's

01:08:10.090 --> 01:08:13.550
throw away any of that that's unpalatable to

01:08:13.550 --> 01:08:17.649
our market constituency. Let's make this as stylized

01:08:17.649 --> 01:08:22.289
to their preferences as possible. I don't want

01:08:22.289 --> 01:08:25.850
to sound elitist on this, but we offer a very

01:08:25.850 --> 01:08:30.220
specific kind of thing. And it has to be offered

01:08:30.220 --> 01:08:35.039
according to its nature. To modify it is often

01:08:35.039 --> 01:08:38.840
to lose it. It's not unlike the gospel. When

01:08:38.840 --> 01:08:41.579
you say the gospel plus something, you end up

01:08:41.579 --> 01:08:44.659
with something less than the gospel. CCE is not

01:08:44.659 --> 01:08:47.140
nearly as important as the gospel. But when you

01:08:47.140 --> 01:08:50.819
start stylizing CCE, you start losing it. Yeah,

01:08:50.819 --> 01:08:54.720
it's not elitist, it's faithfulness. It's faithfulness

01:08:54.720 --> 01:08:57.550
to tradition, it's faithfulness to... Again,

01:08:57.750 --> 01:09:00.949
it's all about the fifth commandment, boys. It's

01:09:00.949 --> 01:09:03.109
faithfulness to those that came before us. That's

01:09:03.109 --> 01:09:04.930
exactly the answer I would have given for Latin.

01:09:05.890 --> 01:09:11.890
Ultimately, Latin is a great way, a great means

01:09:11.890 --> 01:09:16.270
to grow in wisdom and virtue. But why is it a

01:09:16.270 --> 01:09:18.449
great… And access beauty. And access beauty.

01:09:18.770 --> 01:09:21.189
And why is it a means to those things? Well,

01:09:21.189 --> 01:09:23.649
it's because as Americans, as English speakers,

01:09:23.770 --> 01:09:25.630
if English is your father, then Latin is your

01:09:25.630 --> 01:09:29.159
mother. And so it's to not know Latin like and

01:09:29.159 --> 01:09:31.300
you know, we are a generation of people that

01:09:31.300 --> 01:09:34.380
do not know Latin. Well, some of us have taught

01:09:34.380 --> 01:09:37.739
it at a rudimentary level, but I want my sons

01:09:37.739 --> 01:09:40.819
to know it robustly because I want them to not

01:09:40.819 --> 01:09:42.819
only know their father, but also their mother

01:09:42.819 --> 01:09:46.180
and and to think about language just a little

01:09:46.180 --> 01:09:48.659
bit more, you know, we started by talking about

01:09:48.659 --> 01:09:51.439
Padilla and how there's not a great English translation

01:09:51.439 --> 01:09:55.489
for it. ancient languages are that way. They

01:09:55.489 --> 01:09:59.449
give us access to words that we can't even articulate

01:09:59.449 --> 01:10:02.750
in our own language, which therefore gives you

01:10:02.750 --> 01:10:06.069
access to thoughts and to wisdom that you cannot

01:10:06.069 --> 01:10:08.229
even access in your own language because you

01:10:08.229 --> 01:10:10.470
can't think of it in your language, because you

01:10:10.470 --> 01:10:13.810
think in your language. You think thoughts using

01:10:13.810 --> 01:10:16.130
the words that you know. And so, when you have

01:10:16.130 --> 01:10:20.409
access to Latin or to biblical Hebrew, to biblical

01:10:20.409 --> 01:10:22.819
Greek, You can think about the Scriptures, you

01:10:22.819 --> 01:10:24.699
can think about those that have come before you,

01:10:24.920 --> 01:10:27.859
and the thoughts that they have had in ways that

01:10:27.859 --> 01:10:32.159
you couldn't otherwise. Can I suggest a metaphor?

01:10:32.680 --> 01:10:34.720
Like me a good metaphor? Can you make a metaphor

01:10:34.720 --> 01:10:38.560
out of that? A few years ago, we planted a bunch

01:10:38.560 --> 01:10:40.579
of blueberry bushes in our yard. I think a few

01:10:40.579 --> 01:10:42.460
raspberry bushes were involved at some point.

01:10:43.079 --> 01:10:46.260
And the thing about planting a berry bush, and

01:10:46.260 --> 01:10:48.460
this might be true for all fruit, I don't know

01:10:48.460 --> 01:10:52.020
about that. For the first few years, we had to

01:10:52.020 --> 01:10:55.920
pick the fruit off before it matured. And the

01:10:55.920 --> 01:10:58.220
idea is that we're pushing the energy of this

01:10:58.220 --> 01:11:00.300
plant into the root system so that it would be

01:11:00.300 --> 01:11:03.119
strong. And so I was excited about blueberries,

01:11:03.260 --> 01:11:04.939
excited about raspberries, but for several, two

01:11:04.939 --> 01:11:07.300
to three years, we had to, you know, pick the

01:11:07.300 --> 01:11:09.420
fruit off and we couldn't let it really fruit.

01:11:10.640 --> 01:11:14.300
And what classical Christian education is, is

01:11:14.300 --> 01:11:17.649
it's an education of of roots, right? So we talk

01:11:17.649 --> 01:11:19.569
about the fifth commandment, but it's also an

01:11:19.569 --> 01:11:22.970
education that requires roots and values roots,

01:11:23.229 --> 01:11:24.890
which means, and I mean, I could probably expand

01:11:24.890 --> 01:11:29.029
this into in lots of ways. Um, but as, as we

01:11:29.029 --> 01:11:30.789
think about something like Latin and we, and

01:11:30.789 --> 01:11:32.649
I know I've heard parents say, well, you know,

01:11:32.649 --> 01:11:35.369
it's not really practical. And it's so much like

01:11:35.369 --> 01:11:37.630
those bushes where you say it doesn't seem practical

01:11:37.630 --> 01:11:41.489
yet, but this year I think we put up like 40

01:11:41.489 --> 01:11:44.029
court bags of blueberries in the freezer. Yeah,

01:11:44.109 --> 01:11:47.189
we didn't plant acres of these. No, we have like

01:11:47.189 --> 01:11:50.430
six bushes and they're still just starting to

01:11:50.430 --> 01:11:53.649
fruit well. And so it didn't seem really practical

01:11:53.649 --> 01:11:57.170
at first to pick off all the berries, but what

01:11:57.170 --> 01:11:59.149
we wanted was really, really strong roots. And

01:11:59.149 --> 01:12:01.869
so studying something like Latin is establishing

01:12:01.869 --> 01:12:03.510
roots for our children in their own learning

01:12:03.510 --> 01:12:05.590
and their own thinking, but also just thinking

01:12:05.590 --> 01:12:08.149
about what it means to be a Westerner. It's going

01:12:08.149 --> 01:12:12.739
to the roots of who we are as a people. And again,

01:12:12.760 --> 01:12:14.380
I could probably expand that into some other

01:12:14.380 --> 01:12:16.260
ways when we think about reading instruction

01:12:16.260 --> 01:12:19.939
or cursive or lots of other areas. Having a baby,

01:12:20.100 --> 01:12:22.640
very practically beneficial for the first several

01:12:22.640 --> 01:12:25.300
years of its life. It's a long -term project.

01:12:25.619 --> 01:12:30.239
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. As someone in the room

01:12:30.239 --> 01:12:33.220
who deeply identifies with Ernest T. Bass, all

01:12:33.220 --> 01:12:36.020
this sounds really good. How do I know that it

01:12:36.020 --> 01:12:41.869
works? What what proof is it well so the the

01:12:41.869 --> 01:12:44.970
biggest association of classical schools There's

01:12:44.970 --> 01:12:46.250
a couple of different groups kind of working

01:12:46.250 --> 01:12:48.689
on this but the ACCS the Association of classical

01:12:48.689 --> 01:12:51.789
Christian schools has done significant amount

01:12:51.789 --> 01:12:56.949
of empirical research on Outcomes right outcomes

01:12:56.949 --> 01:13:00.729
for classical students compared with see if I

01:13:00.729 --> 01:13:04.489
can so homeschool students Catholic school evangelical

01:13:04.489 --> 01:13:08.140
college prep public school And there may be one

01:13:08.140 --> 01:13:10.979
other one. But they put this out. It was called

01:13:10.979 --> 01:13:13.239
the Good Soil Study. And I can't remember when

01:13:13.239 --> 01:13:14.720
it was conducted. But I want to say that the

01:13:14.720 --> 01:13:17.600
actual data was released around 2019 or so. That's

01:13:17.600 --> 01:13:22.140
right, 2018, 2019. 2018, yeah. So we've just

01:13:22.140 --> 01:13:23.899
got a few minutes left. But Christy, do you want

01:13:23.899 --> 01:13:26.979
to give us some interesting anecdotes from that

01:13:26.979 --> 01:13:31.579
study? First of all, is this available for interested

01:13:31.579 --> 01:13:34.239
parties to just find? It is. It is available

01:13:34.239 --> 01:13:39.500
on the website. the ACCS website, Association

01:13:39.500 --> 01:13:41.100
of Classical Christian Schools. Right. I think

01:13:41.100 --> 01:13:43.859
it's classicalchristian .org. Right. And you're

01:13:43.859 --> 01:13:45.920
looking for resources, and then it's called the

01:13:45.920 --> 01:13:48.720
Good Soil Study. And so I'll see if I can...

01:13:48.720 --> 01:13:50.760
Yeah, Cardus did this study for them. That's

01:13:50.760 --> 01:13:54.239
right. Known for studying educational outcomes.

01:13:55.180 --> 01:13:58.350
So here's one. This is, you know... Real basic,

01:13:58.449 --> 01:14:00.289
but I think parents still want to know like can

01:14:00.289 --> 01:14:03.189
my kid go to college if they don't have two years

01:14:03.189 --> 01:14:06.609
of Spanish in high school And so, you know if

01:14:06.609 --> 01:14:08.250
we're looking at those different groups homeschool

01:14:08.250 --> 01:14:10.229
evangelical schools Catholic schools college

01:14:10.229 --> 01:14:13.170
prep schools and public schools Let's just I'll

01:14:13.170 --> 01:14:15.710
pull a few specifics. I could talk about generalities,

01:14:15.710 --> 01:14:17.590
but I think the specifics are really helpful

01:14:17.590 --> 01:14:20.789
to illustrate the fact that classical Christian

01:14:20.789 --> 01:14:23.949
education is very effective in lots of ways.

01:14:24.069 --> 01:14:26.850
We're talking about making virtue as human beings,

01:14:27.310 --> 01:14:29.510
but also like, but just can they go to college?

01:14:30.529 --> 01:14:33.010
So these students were asked, these were alumni,

01:14:33.189 --> 01:14:35.390
these students were asked if they were well prepared

01:14:35.390 --> 01:14:40.789
for college by their high school. And the lowest

01:14:40.789 --> 01:14:43.770
they are coming in under 50 % was public schools.

01:14:44.289 --> 01:14:49.329
The Second highest is about, I'm looking at maybe

01:14:49.329 --> 01:14:54.510
70, 75 percent was Catholic schools and then

01:14:54.510 --> 01:15:00.069
just under 90 percent of the ACCS alum. So ACCS

01:15:00.069 --> 01:15:02.869
is just a particular association that does not

01:15:02.869 --> 01:15:05.159
include all classical schools. But this study

01:15:05.159 --> 01:15:08.260
was just trying to single out the efficacy of

01:15:08.260 --> 01:15:11.359
ACCS schools. And almost 90 % of those students

01:15:11.359 --> 01:15:13.100
said they were well -prepared for college or

01:15:13.100 --> 01:15:15.539
other high schools. Again, the second was coming

01:15:15.539 --> 01:15:18.779
in closer to 70, 75%. That's a pretty big jump.

01:15:19.039 --> 01:15:21.600
That's a very, a very big jump. And then that,

01:15:21.659 --> 01:15:22.899
you know, this study, if you want to look into

01:15:22.899 --> 01:15:25.600
it breaks down who earned A's or mostly A's in

01:15:25.600 --> 01:15:28.859
their college, who earned a B or higher? I'm

01:15:28.859 --> 01:15:32.399
sorry, who, who earned a a bachelor's or higher

01:15:32.399 --> 01:15:36.609
in college, ACCS grads. over and above their

01:15:36.609 --> 01:15:40.310
counterparts who felt well prepared. It's one

01:15:40.310 --> 01:15:42.630
thing to be prepared. And we've seen studies

01:15:42.630 --> 01:15:46.449
on American public school students often feel

01:15:46.449 --> 01:15:50.329
very well prepared, but score lower than most

01:15:50.329 --> 01:15:53.029
other developed countries. So it's how prepared

01:15:53.029 --> 01:15:55.569
are you, but then also how do you feel prepared?

01:15:55.630 --> 01:15:57.529
And those things are actually matching for ACCS

01:15:57.529 --> 01:16:00.430
students. Let's talk about life though. We talked

01:16:00.430 --> 01:16:02.779
about Classical education is really an education.

01:16:03.000 --> 01:16:04.979
This study is very comprehensive. Very comprehensive.

01:16:05.119 --> 01:16:07.579
A lot of outcomes were measured here. And among

01:16:07.579 --> 01:16:12.359
other things, there were like, um, life activities,

01:16:12.479 --> 01:16:15.239
you know, what, what are you, are they in church?

01:16:15.439 --> 01:16:18.140
Are they, what is their family? Yeah. Are they

01:16:18.140 --> 01:16:20.079
participating in public life? These kinds of

01:16:20.079 --> 01:16:23.500
things. So go ahead. Yeah. And, um, Those seven

01:16:23.500 --> 01:16:25.779
outcome profiles, by the way, are college and

01:16:25.779 --> 01:16:30.159
career, life outlook, Christian commitment, Christian

01:16:30.159 --> 01:16:34.079
lifestyle, traditional and conservative, independence

01:16:34.079 --> 01:16:36.859
of mind, which I think is, some people might

01:16:36.859 --> 01:16:38.680
be surprised that they're, you know, oh, aren't

01:16:38.680 --> 01:16:40.739
you indoctrinating students? You don't want them

01:16:40.739 --> 01:16:43.880
to be independent. We actually want them to be

01:16:43.880 --> 01:16:48.680
independent of certain influences like popular

01:16:48.680 --> 01:16:51.460
culture, right? Not independent of scripture,

01:16:51.640 --> 01:16:53.539
but we do want a certain kind of independence

01:16:53.539 --> 01:16:56.859
of mind and then influence. And then it also

01:16:56.859 --> 01:16:59.300
assess school experience, like did the kids enjoy

01:16:59.300 --> 01:17:01.100
it? Did they make friends? Did they have a good

01:17:01.100 --> 01:17:03.579
time? Which I think is of some value, certainly.

01:17:04.000 --> 01:17:07.500
So let me try to find, I keep scrolling, it's

01:17:07.500 --> 01:17:12.180
a very long document. Here's an interesting one.

01:17:12.600 --> 01:17:17.770
Okay. ACCS graduates, do they trust people around

01:17:17.770 --> 01:17:19.949
them indicating a positive outlook on life? So

01:17:19.949 --> 01:17:24.029
are we graduating cynics? Are these people cynical

01:17:24.029 --> 01:17:26.689
about the world? Have they learned to be hyper

01:17:26.689 --> 01:17:30.449
critical? What does that look like? Do they trust

01:17:30.449 --> 01:17:35.069
the people around them? When it comes to strangers,

01:17:35.470 --> 01:17:38.029
coworkers, people at church and their neighbors,

01:17:38.210 --> 01:17:41.829
they exceed all of their counterparts. Every

01:17:41.829 --> 01:17:44.569
single metric on this question exceeds their

01:17:44.569 --> 01:17:49.270
counterparts. They trust their coworkers. The

01:17:49.270 --> 01:17:51.750
margin between those other kinds of education

01:17:51.750 --> 01:17:55.529
is greatest when it comes to coworkers and strangers,

01:17:55.710 --> 01:17:57.029
which I thought was really, really interesting.

01:17:57.869 --> 01:18:00.850
So, you know, kids who are discipled well are

01:18:00.850 --> 01:18:03.529
trusting strangers more than children who were.

01:18:04.029 --> 01:18:06.210
given any other kind of education. I don't know

01:18:06.210 --> 01:18:07.710
if I'm communicating. It doesn't mean naivety.

01:18:07.789 --> 01:18:09.670
It means that they're the bedrock of a high trust

01:18:09.670 --> 01:18:12.090
society, which we're all feeling the loss of.

01:18:12.430 --> 01:18:16.810
Right. Okay. Who, who do you think trusts scientists?

01:18:16.989 --> 01:18:19.090
Now we're just talking about trusting institutions

01:18:19.090 --> 01:18:23.369
and outsiders. Who do you think is trusting scientists?

01:18:24.640 --> 01:18:27.840
Catholics, public school, homeschool, what would

01:18:27.840 --> 01:18:29.899
you, I think most of you probably know all the

01:18:29.899 --> 01:18:32.420
outcomes. You don't have an honest guess. Well,

01:18:32.420 --> 01:18:34.199
if I was trying to be objective, I would guess

01:18:34.199 --> 01:18:36.380
that public school students would trust scientists

01:18:36.380 --> 01:18:41.899
most. Is that accurate? No, it's ACCS students.

01:18:41.899 --> 01:18:44.220
Oh, how about that? Okay. Yeah. So if you think

01:18:44.220 --> 01:18:46.600
about, are we teaching our kids to hate science

01:18:46.600 --> 01:18:48.439
and just put their heads in the mud? Sure. To

01:18:48.439 --> 01:18:50.529
be in the lakes for wool checkouts. Absolutely,

01:18:50.689 --> 01:18:52.470
no, we're actually teaching our students how

01:18:52.470 --> 01:18:56.329
to think well, and that good scientists should

01:18:56.329 --> 01:18:59.050
be trusted, but they understand to ask that question,

01:18:59.590 --> 01:19:03.470
and how to define it. Let me find another metric.

01:19:03.810 --> 01:19:06.489
So in other words, the potential accusation against

01:19:06.489 --> 01:19:11.170
ACCS that we're anti science, like we, you know,

01:19:11.170 --> 01:19:14.770
we don't, we don't respect scientific pursuit

01:19:14.770 --> 01:19:18.550
is appears to be unfounded. Entirely unfounded.

01:19:18.750 --> 01:19:24.850
Yes. Yeah, absolutely Let's see While you're

01:19:24.850 --> 01:19:27.130
looking for that interesting anecdote about the

01:19:27.130 --> 01:19:30.789
studies that when it came when it came out The

01:19:30.789 --> 01:19:33.050
ACCS was a little reluctant to release the information

01:19:33.050 --> 01:19:35.750
and there was initial Concern that the numbers

01:19:35.750 --> 01:19:37.569
were not going to be impressive and it turned

01:19:37.569 --> 01:19:39.409
out that they were reluctant to release it because

01:19:39.409 --> 01:19:41.949
it appeared that they cheated Because the outcomes

01:19:41.949 --> 01:19:45.329
for the ACCS schools were so strong Now, this

01:19:45.329 --> 01:19:47.329
was carried out by an independent agency that

01:19:47.329 --> 01:19:50.789
the ACCS employed to measure these things. So

01:19:50.789 --> 01:19:55.430
the ACCS did not manipulate the data. But I found

01:19:55.430 --> 01:19:56.810
that to be interesting that they were like, oh,

01:19:56.909 --> 01:19:59.909
goodness, it's so overwhelmingly positive in

01:19:59.909 --> 01:20:04.489
most categories that it almost seems faked. So

01:20:04.489 --> 01:20:07.289
it really is worth it to look at if classical

01:20:07.289 --> 01:20:09.590
Christian, if you're involved in it now, or if

01:20:09.590 --> 01:20:12.710
you are considering it, This is something to

01:20:12.710 --> 01:20:16.250
look at. And again, this is ACCS schools, which

01:20:16.250 --> 01:20:18.970
are all classical, but they do not represent

01:20:18.970 --> 01:20:22.649
all classical schools. And the outcomes are maybe

01:20:22.649 --> 01:20:25.090
similar for other classical schools. We don't

01:20:25.090 --> 01:20:27.949
know for sure, but it's likely that there's some

01:20:27.949 --> 01:20:30.329
carryover there. Right. Go ahead. Well, I was

01:20:30.329 --> 01:20:32.850
going to say one of the anecdotes that Chrissy

01:20:32.850 --> 01:20:34.909
highlighted for me a while back that I find interesting

01:20:34.909 --> 01:20:37.829
pastorally. I think the idea that we're anti

01:20:37.829 --> 01:20:39.989
-science comes from this idea that somehow Christians

01:20:39.989 --> 01:20:42.529
are anti -intellectual, we're terrified of Darwin,

01:20:43.250 --> 01:20:46.270
we, you know, our faith can only survive in intellectual

01:20:46.270 --> 01:20:50.430
sheltering. Another one of those is that we become

01:20:50.430 --> 01:20:53.130
kind of religious snobs and look down and have

01:20:53.130 --> 01:20:55.670
no meaningful connections to the world that's

01:20:55.670 --> 01:20:58.270
lost. And one of the things that ACCS students

01:20:58.270 --> 01:21:00.949
scored on very high is that they have meaningful

01:21:00.949 --> 01:21:04.119
friendships with homosexuals. And so they're

01:21:04.119 --> 01:21:06.359
still interfacing with a world that has a very

01:21:06.359 --> 01:21:09.760
different value system than we do, but they are

01:21:09.760 --> 01:21:11.380
interfacing with the world in a way that they

01:21:11.380 --> 01:21:13.619
can say, well, actually we're very, despite the

01:21:13.619 --> 01:21:15.600
disparities. They're not monks. They're not running

01:21:15.600 --> 01:21:17.760
off to hide. Right. We're not hiding. We're not

01:21:17.760 --> 01:21:20.500
being, you know, religiously hateful in whatever

01:21:20.500 --> 01:21:23.000
way that might be assumed to be, but we're actually

01:21:23.000 --> 01:21:24.840
engaging with the world as we meet it. Yeah.

01:21:24.899 --> 01:21:26.560
They're in the world, but they're also not of

01:21:26.560 --> 01:21:34.479
it. because the outcomes of that study also say,

01:21:34.680 --> 01:21:37.500
even though they're in it, that they're living

01:21:37.500 --> 01:21:40.880
more faithfully to their faith. I want to say

01:21:40.880 --> 01:21:44.079
in that same section on the friendships with

01:21:44.079 --> 01:21:46.199
homosexuals that they were also much more likely

01:21:46.199 --> 01:21:49.500
to vocally express disapproval of homosexuality

01:21:49.500 --> 01:21:53.760
as a lifestyle. Call it a sin. Right. The data

01:21:53.760 --> 01:21:55.199
says these are the kids who are showing up to

01:21:55.199 --> 01:21:58.060
church every Sunday. These are the kids who are

01:21:58.060 --> 01:22:01.840
in their workplace making a dent professionally

01:22:01.840 --> 01:22:05.659
and personally. Give us one more good one. We've

01:22:05.659 --> 01:22:10.890
got to sign off here soon. This one says, ACCS

01:22:10.890 --> 01:22:13.949
alumni defy categories as they retain orthodoxy

01:22:13.949 --> 01:22:15.550
and engage the world, which is kind of what you

01:22:15.550 --> 01:22:18.729
guys were saying. And so this is not just one

01:22:18.729 --> 01:22:21.430
particular question, but sort of a summary of

01:22:21.430 --> 01:22:24.170
this section. But it says, it assessed independent

01:22:24.170 --> 01:22:26.609
views, reading science, willing to disagree,

01:22:26.930 --> 01:22:28.550
accept differences, but willing to challenge.

01:22:29.020 --> 01:22:32.380
Again, using multiple questions. And again, ACCS

01:22:32.380 --> 01:22:37.180
alumni, far outpace homeschool evangelical Catholic

01:22:37.180 --> 01:22:43.350
private prep and public school peers. Okay, this

01:22:43.350 --> 01:22:44.970
one's interesting. I don't know. This is the

01:22:44.970 --> 01:22:46.930
most important but again, just trying to yeah

01:22:46.930 --> 01:22:49.149
again that you can find this on your own and

01:22:49.149 --> 01:22:50.890
because it's all worth it's worth reading and

01:22:50.890 --> 01:22:53.810
looking at. Absolutely. Obligation to care for

01:22:53.810 --> 01:22:56.149
the environment. That one's again, not the most

01:22:56.149 --> 01:22:58.050
important thing, but I think again goes against

01:22:58.050 --> 01:22:59.510
but this would be another one where I'd say well

01:22:59.510 --> 01:23:01.810
surely public school kids, right? Because they're

01:23:01.810 --> 01:23:04.090
all they're all told climate change and surely

01:23:04.090 --> 01:23:05.850
all that stuff. Yeah, so that's capture melting

01:23:05.850 --> 01:23:07.670
and we'll kill you. Yeah, Florida's gonna be

01:23:07.670 --> 01:23:11.550
underwater next week. All right. just over 52

01:23:11.550 --> 01:23:16.869
% of ACCS graduates feel that they have an obligation

01:23:16.869 --> 01:23:20.550
to care for the environment. Under that is coming

01:23:20.550 --> 01:23:24.869
in about 47 % Catholic students, Catholic school

01:23:24.869 --> 01:23:30.109
students, and then 45 % public. And so again,

01:23:30.449 --> 01:23:33.390
outpacing their peers when it comes to things

01:23:33.390 --> 01:23:37.430
like creation care. It's a liberal arts education.

01:23:40.729 --> 01:23:45.109
It's not just a humanities education. It's not

01:23:45.109 --> 01:23:47.710
how to ignore science and only know the Bible.

01:23:48.550 --> 01:23:51.869
It's not just be a good Christian and don't have

01:23:51.869 --> 01:23:54.470
to, here's one on total reading or reading non

01:23:54.470 --> 01:24:03.399
-religious books. It's how to be human. I think

01:24:03.399 --> 01:24:06.319
testing in this way is one data point, or in

01:24:06.319 --> 01:24:10.239
this case, many data points. But also talk to

01:24:10.239 --> 01:24:12.500
students who are in a classical school, talk

01:24:12.500 --> 01:24:15.399
to graduates, talk to their parents. If you have

01:24:15.399 --> 01:24:18.020
access to those kinds of people, tour a school,

01:24:18.239 --> 01:24:20.579
sit in a classroom. Find one close to you and

01:24:20.579 --> 01:24:22.399
call them. They'll be happy to give you a tour.

01:24:22.560 --> 01:24:24.319
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this stuff tells us

01:24:24.319 --> 01:24:27.079
the things that we hoped would be true. You know,

01:24:27.300 --> 01:24:31.420
the study. seems to prove that, but also go and

01:24:31.420 --> 01:24:34.119
look for yourself. That's the classical way.

01:24:34.239 --> 01:24:37.560
Go to the source, evaluate it, ask questions.

01:24:38.159 --> 01:24:40.020
To go back, I know we need to wrap up, but to

01:24:40.020 --> 01:24:42.159
go back to the question that you asked, Jason,

01:24:42.479 --> 01:24:45.479
about how do you know that this works? And all

01:24:45.479 --> 01:24:49.760
of the CARTAS study is excellent. I encourage

01:24:49.760 --> 01:24:51.520
everybody who's listening, if you haven't read

01:24:51.520 --> 01:24:55.270
it, to go read it. But as Americans who very

01:24:55.270 --> 01:25:00.869
much love the roots of our states and of our

01:25:00.869 --> 01:25:03.369
nation and we think about all of the good things

01:25:03.369 --> 01:25:06.529
that I think most of us realize is evaporating

01:25:06.529 --> 01:25:11.109
pretty quickly. Why is that? Why was there so

01:25:11.109 --> 01:25:16.569
much rootedness and fruit and goodness and beauty

01:25:16.569 --> 01:25:20.970
at the founding? And why over the last 250 years

01:25:20.970 --> 01:25:24.460
has it faded away? Well, if you go back and look

01:25:24.460 --> 01:25:26.279
at the way everybody was educated in colonial

01:25:26.279 --> 01:25:29.100
America and in the first hundred years of the

01:25:29.100 --> 01:25:32.140
country before that 40 -year gap, 1880 to 1920,

01:25:33.680 --> 01:25:35.720
when was the last time there was a two or three

01:25:35.720 --> 01:25:38.739
generation, you know, in a row that gave you

01:25:38.739 --> 01:25:41.920
people like John Winthrop and George Washington

01:25:41.920 --> 01:25:48.420
and... John Severe. John Severe, yeah, Tennessean.

01:25:49.399 --> 01:25:56.000
And... Patrick Henry and William Bradford. Even

01:25:56.000 --> 01:25:57.619
someone who's not like we would call an Orthodox

01:25:57.619 --> 01:25:59.579
Christian, but a Thomas Jefferson. Thomas Jefferson,

01:26:00.079 --> 01:26:02.380
yeah. Wouldn't we love it if all the secularists

01:26:02.380 --> 01:26:04.479
were Thomas Jefferson's? If that was like as

01:26:04.479 --> 01:26:06.760
worse as it got, you know, or Benjamin Franklin.

01:26:09.239 --> 01:26:13.840
Men like Jonathan Edwards, theologians like Jonathan

01:26:13.840 --> 01:26:19.930
Edwards or R .L. Dabney or Thornwell. Those sorts

01:26:19.930 --> 01:26:22.970
of people don't exist in mass like they existed

01:26:22.970 --> 01:26:29.470
in mass from you know, let's call it 1650 to

01:26:29.470 --> 01:26:33.189
1850 like a to the first 200 years that people

01:26:33.189 --> 01:26:36.430
were the European peoples came here and the way

01:26:36.430 --> 01:26:42.130
they were all educated and the amount of thinkers

01:26:42.130 --> 01:26:45.829
that existed at that time who weren't just thinkers

01:26:45.829 --> 01:26:48.270
but who Ordered all these things we're talking

01:26:48.270 --> 01:26:50.289
about ordered all of their thoughts and their

01:26:50.289 --> 01:26:53.430
affections their civic life and everything to

01:26:53.430 --> 01:26:56.829
see virtue pursuing wisdom and virtue for the

01:26:56.829 --> 01:26:58.789
glory of god and for the good of their neighbor.

01:27:00.170 --> 01:27:03.930
And also women who were helps to their husbands

01:27:03.930 --> 01:27:07.529
like abigail adams like abigail adams was incredibly

01:27:07.529 --> 01:27:10.569
educated and was lady and she spent her time

01:27:10.569 --> 01:27:15.420
raising her children and. they went on to be

01:27:15.420 --> 01:27:17.819
pretty incredible. And John Adams was not there.

01:27:18.100 --> 01:27:20.979
I mean, he was gone, you know, doing revolutionary

01:27:20.979 --> 01:27:24.979
war things and being a statesman and being an

01:27:24.979 --> 01:27:28.680
ambassador to England. And I think he was the

01:27:28.680 --> 01:27:31.220
first ambassador to England for America. And

01:27:31.220 --> 01:27:34.220
so he was not home often at all. And so Abigail

01:27:34.220 --> 01:27:35.960
Adams raised all those kids and you go look at

01:27:35.960 --> 01:27:40.680
the fruit of the Adams children. And so, for

01:27:40.680 --> 01:27:42.300
people who think that motherhood is unimportant,

01:27:42.600 --> 01:27:44.920
right? To think about how classical Christian

01:27:44.920 --> 01:27:48.659
education speaks to all of who we are. You want

01:27:48.659 --> 01:27:50.720
your wives and your mothers to be like that,

01:27:50.880 --> 01:27:54.680
and you want the theologians and the statesmen

01:27:54.680 --> 01:27:58.340
to be like those men. And so, the Carta study

01:27:58.340 --> 01:28:00.920
is excellent as far as what the modern movement

01:28:00.920 --> 01:28:03.640
is doing, but that modern movement is trying

01:28:03.640 --> 01:28:08.020
to recover what those people had in mass. When

01:28:08.020 --> 01:28:10.359
people were educated, colonial America and early

01:28:10.359 --> 01:28:12.659
America, first few generations, this is how they

01:28:12.659 --> 01:28:16.060
were educated. That's why we live in the greatest

01:28:16.060 --> 01:28:19.300
country that has existed up to this point. And

01:28:19.300 --> 01:28:22.479
if I can say one last thing, I don't know, maybe

01:28:22.479 --> 01:28:24.600
it was Jeff who commented on classical Christian

01:28:24.600 --> 01:28:26.439
education is weird. I don't know if you use that

01:28:26.439 --> 01:28:29.760
word. You have used it often. It's weird and

01:28:29.760 --> 01:28:33.300
it creates conflict in lots of ways. And so I

01:28:33.300 --> 01:28:36.029
think One more way that I want to put on the

01:28:36.029 --> 01:28:38.529
listeners radar to think about what is what is

01:28:38.529 --> 01:28:40.770
cce what does it do is it do for the students

01:28:40.770 --> 01:28:44.670
it necessarily requires a very large dose of

01:28:44.670 --> 01:28:49.329
courage. And one of the ways i started to talk

01:28:49.329 --> 01:28:51.710
and think about cce is it's an education and

01:28:51.710 --> 01:28:55.069
courage and and i think that matters as well

01:28:55.069 --> 01:28:57.270
because all of these you think of all those men

01:28:57.270 --> 01:28:59.689
they they're not producing anything if it's not

01:28:59.689 --> 01:29:02.960
for courage. Right? And so I think that's a really

01:29:02.960 --> 01:29:04.140
important part. I don't know that you're going

01:29:04.140 --> 01:29:07.359
to find that in Plato. Maybe, maybe. I just,

01:29:07.500 --> 01:29:09.979
I don't know how important that was to the medievals

01:29:09.979 --> 01:29:12.539
who are creating the universities, but it is

01:29:12.539 --> 01:29:17.060
virtue and it is required. And, and I think that's,

01:29:17.060 --> 01:29:19.239
you know, should be more, more part of the conversation

01:29:19.239 --> 01:29:22.840
that we have to, we don't want children to be

01:29:22.840 --> 01:29:25.659
anti -authoritarian necessarily, but we need

01:29:25.819 --> 01:29:28.479
We need children who are prepared and equipped

01:29:28.479 --> 01:29:32.439
to, um, to do what is weird or difficult or creates

01:29:32.439 --> 01:29:35.000
conflict. Because it's right. Because it's the

01:29:35.000 --> 01:29:37.539
right thing to do. Yeah. And was it Lewis that

01:29:37.539 --> 01:29:39.100
said that courage is the testing point of all

01:29:39.100 --> 01:29:43.720
the other virtues? Well, before we sign off,

01:29:43.939 --> 01:29:46.779
we've got to, we've got to make a nod to our,

01:29:46.779 --> 01:29:51.880
our, uh, friends at bare knuckle gloves. who

01:29:51.880 --> 01:29:54.680
have given us a couple samples I'm still using

01:29:54.680 --> 01:29:56.800
mine. They're quite dirty now, but they're just

01:29:56.800 --> 01:29:59.359
as comfortable as they were when I got them.

01:29:59.680 --> 01:30:04.020
And they're holding up quite well. No problems.

01:30:04.420 --> 01:30:06.840
Jeff, are you still using yours? Yeah, I'm using

01:30:06.840 --> 01:30:08.800
them every time I can get them away from my kids.

01:30:08.800 --> 01:30:10.420
Oh man, they've been stolen. They're trying to

01:30:10.420 --> 01:30:13.960
take them. One thing I've noticed that's interesting

01:30:13.960 --> 01:30:16.079
to me, we go through a lot of leather gloves.

01:30:16.489 --> 01:30:19.850
Sam says a collection that you can buy fairly

01:30:19.850 --> 01:30:22.329
affordably and we've we went through a good joining

01:30:22.329 --> 01:30:24.850
of those when I've been doing fencing projects

01:30:24.850 --> 01:30:28.829
with barbed wire I almost always wear out the

01:30:28.829 --> 01:30:31.810
fingertips of the gloves working with barbed

01:30:31.810 --> 01:30:37.569
wire fencing the bearskins have to my I Suffered

01:30:37.569 --> 01:30:39.949
no substantial damage as I've done that stuff

01:30:39.949 --> 01:30:42.890
and they're just another bison, huh? That's right.

01:30:43.189 --> 01:30:45.510
They're both a little hide. At least that's the

01:30:45.510 --> 01:30:47.390
ones they send us. But they have a wide variety

01:30:47.390 --> 01:30:49.689
of different gloves. And so you should check

01:30:49.689 --> 01:30:53.289
them out. We have a discount code. It's a car

01:30:53.289 --> 01:30:56.050
that you can put in at checkout. That helps to

01:30:56.050 --> 01:30:59.250
show. And it gets you a little bit of a discount

01:30:59.250 --> 01:31:02.970
there. And so take a look. Look up Bear & Knuckle

01:31:02.970 --> 01:31:07.289
gloves. BuyBearAndKnuckles .com. Yeah. BuyBearAndKnuckles

01:31:07.289 --> 01:31:10.800
.com. That's bear the animal, B -E -A -R. And

01:31:10.800 --> 01:31:13.340
one more shout out, this is not a sponsor of

01:31:13.340 --> 01:31:16.159
the show, but this is a company that sent us

01:31:16.159 --> 01:31:18.520
here at the school, they sent us a trauma kit,

01:31:18.699 --> 01:31:20.800
which is kind of an emergency first aid kit for

01:31:20.800 --> 01:31:23.119
pretty serious injuries. Those poor Latin students.

01:31:23.619 --> 01:31:28.479
Yeah, yeah. This is a Christian company called

01:31:28.479 --> 01:31:32.279
Refuge Medical Training and I highly recommend

01:31:32.279 --> 01:31:34.159
their products. I had a chance to look over this

01:31:34.159 --> 01:31:36.220
trauma kit and I've owned a couple of trauma

01:31:36.220 --> 01:31:39.100
kits from just times in the past where I needed

01:31:39.100 --> 01:31:43.079
to have those kind of things. And so I'm excited

01:31:43.079 --> 01:31:44.859
to have this on the premises. We're hoping that

01:31:44.859 --> 01:31:46.520
it just gets to sit in the corner and not get

01:31:46.520 --> 01:31:48.739
used ever, but if we need it, we've got it. And

01:31:48.739 --> 01:31:51.220
so if you are in the market for that, if you

01:31:51.220 --> 01:31:55.439
want to know more about medical response, then

01:31:55.439 --> 01:31:57.760
Refuge will do trainings. They have lots of free

01:31:57.760 --> 01:31:59.880
videos. And if you're interested in getting yourself

01:31:59.880 --> 01:32:02.399
a pretty robust first aid kit that can handle

01:32:02.399 --> 01:32:05.170
very serious problems. then you should check

01:32:05.170 --> 01:32:09.109
them out. And they are not paying us or anything

01:32:09.109 --> 01:32:11.170
like that, but we wanted to give them a shout

01:32:11.170 --> 01:32:14.850
out on the show because their kindness to just

01:32:14.850 --> 01:32:17.390
donate that to us. But you can find them at RefugeMedical

01:32:17.390 --> 01:32:20.789
.com. And their mission statement is to save

01:32:20.789 --> 01:32:23.229
lives while in service to the Father's kingdom

01:32:23.229 --> 01:32:25.529
and experiencing the abundance of his provision

01:32:25.529 --> 01:32:27.890
and blessings. So these are our people. So if

01:32:27.890 --> 01:32:29.210
you're in the market for that kind of thing,

01:32:29.810 --> 01:32:33.800
check them out at RefugeMedical .com. Thank you

01:32:33.800 --> 01:32:35.819
guys for making time just to be with us today

01:32:35.819 --> 01:32:38.939
and lend some of your expertise and some of your

01:32:38.939 --> 01:32:42.000
wisdom to these subjects. I really think it's

01:32:42.000 --> 01:32:45.159
so important that people understand what we are

01:32:45.159 --> 01:32:48.680
dealing with in this day and age, what our society's

01:32:48.680 --> 01:32:51.159
having to endure, and what classical Christian

01:32:51.159 --> 01:32:53.899
education has to offer everyone. I'm going to

01:32:53.899 --> 01:32:57.159
post some more links to some articles in the

01:32:57.159 --> 01:33:00.300
comments. Be sure to check those out. We've got

01:33:00.300 --> 01:33:03.399
some great materials that have been put in front

01:33:03.399 --> 01:33:05.380
of me, so I just want to share those as well.

01:33:06.520 --> 01:33:08.800
The dads group at the Classical Christian School,

01:33:08.819 --> 01:33:12.319
where my kids attend, they meet monthly and discuss

01:33:12.319 --> 01:33:16.720
current articles. And I'm excited for you to

01:33:16.720 --> 01:33:19.579
experience what we went over. So please be sure

01:33:19.579 --> 01:33:21.680
and check those out in the description section

01:33:21.680 --> 01:33:25.140
of the podcast. So I wanted to do a quick plug

01:33:25.140 --> 01:33:28.000
for Classical Christian Schools. They need your

01:33:28.000 --> 01:33:31.699
support. If you're looking for something to invest

01:33:31.699 --> 01:33:36.319
your resources into, that will make a difference.

01:33:37.020 --> 01:33:40.579
I don't think there is much nobler a cause than

01:33:40.579 --> 01:33:44.460
classical Christian education. I've seen firsthand

01:33:44.460 --> 01:33:49.159
the impact that it does make and I can tell you

01:33:49.159 --> 01:33:53.380
that it is unlike any other schooling that I've

01:33:53.380 --> 01:33:57.439
ever experienced or been part of. So again, thank

01:33:57.439 --> 01:34:00.800
you for joining us. And until next time, we hope

01:34:00.800 --> 01:34:03.819
you strive as we do to be men and women of Iskar.