Welcome back to the Men of Issachar podcast.
We've got a man down this week because of illness.
Jeff can't be with us because he's had strep,
so throw up a prayer on his and his family's
behalf. Mr. Josh Abitoy stops in to chat with
us. Josh is a graduate of Union University, but
after that he attended Harvard Law School. He
is someone whose viewpoint and outlook are very
informed and full of wisdom. I hold his opinion
personally in high regard and I even call on
him professionally. So I trust what he has to
say. He sits on the board of a classical Christian
school and has clout and a lot of well -respected
circles. Some I would even go as far as to say
worldwide circles. So sit back and relax for
this fun conversation where we touch on a few
different subjects that pertain to Ivy League
schools, education, new elites. and a few other
subjects. Terry Gant, Jeff Wright in spirit,
and myself, Jason Gaw, strive to be Men of Issachar.
Welcome back to the Men of Issachar podcast.
I'm Terry here with Jason. Jeff, our usual co
-host, is not with us today. He's out sick. hope
for him to get back with us soon. We are here
today with a guest, Josh Abatoy, and we are going
to be discussing elite education and should Christians
be pursuing this. So I think that we're going
to have to lay the groundwork with some defining
of terms. So I'm going to hand this off to Josh
here and see, you know, we could talk about defining
elite education. You want to break that into
some pieces and tell us what you think. Yeah,
thanks for having me, guys. So, elite education,
that's a compound word, compound phrase. I think
to understand that, you got to take it apart
a little bit. What are elites? And, you know,
I don't, Christians, you know, we don't talk
about elites a lot, like in our churches or in
a lot of Christian institutions. It's not elitist.
Like, it's not a view that That elites are like
the best or the most holy or something like this
It's but it's a more to say that somebody is
elite or to say that we're trying to do a lead
education in a particular place is To recognize
that some people are going to rise to the top
in terms of their abilities and their character
And that's going to make them more fit to be
leaders. It's going to make them better leaders
in their local communities and all the way up
to large institutions or national, you know,
level political issues. Elites are, you know,
but just in the simplest way to put it, like
elites are people who have like excellent virtues
that make them fit for leadership. And so education,
elite education then I think is to say, you know,
one, like how do you... How do you prepare somebody
to become an excellent leader to have the virtues
that a leader needs? But then also like what
what kind of stuff what content of their education?
Should a leader have and that gets really interesting.
I know, you know Those of you who study the classical
education Perhaps more than I have it and I'm
aware. This is like a very like dense literature
there's a lot of books that can be read about
it, but just at a fundamental level like there's
a big choice. American elites at a standard school
right now, they're reading Fahrenheit 451 or
whatever the latest fad is, and making a choice
of saying, hey, if we're trying to do elite education,
our kids are going to be reading Cicero and Xenophon
and Thucydides. That's a very different kind
of choice that's ultimately going to result in
a different kind of leader, different character
that you produce. But but yeah, I think elite
education to say that you know to say that We're
doing it I think is to say that we understand
that some people are going to be elites and they
are going to be leaders and As such we need to
think explicitly about how we want to be training
them and what the content should be. All right,
so You know nature abhors a vacuum and I think
that's true for leadership If not more than anywhere
else, it's certainly as much as anywhere else
So we're going to have an elite. And we can think
about this in a wide variety. We have our cultural
elites. We have our educational elites. We have
our political elites. We have our religious elites.
And so we're speaking here in pretty broad terms.
And what we're getting at is we have in mind
people who are leaders in these fields, who are
creating culture, who are creating the conditions
for society, I guess, maybe if I could put it
that way. So, you went to Harvard, and one of
the questions that I think a lot of people may
have now, because everybody still thinks of Harvard
and Yale and Princeton and the other Ivy Leagues
and other schools like those, are still turning
out highly educated people. I think that's still
the case. I know that some of their reputations
have suffered a little bit in recent years due
to DEI and woke stuff So my question Would be
if I am interested in cultivating an elite young
person a student Should should a goal be an ivy
league school or is there an alternative or how
should we? You know, what's the best? I guess
maybe what's the best track to get somebody into
this kind of elite world? I don't think There's
one track or one, you know, there's there's no
one -size -fits -all best approach Twenty years
ago, I think it was kind of more clearly the
case that if a young person wanted to Get done
with school and get into leadership whether it
be, you know vaulting right into working in high
levels in politics or think tanks or jumping
into Really elite businesses like working at
Goldman Sachs or something The path to that was
going to an Ivy League school or something equivalent
to an Ivy League Or if you were in tack you wanted
to go work at like the best startup, you know,
you go work it Go to Stanford or you go to MIT?
I Think that that's probably softened a little
bit in certain fields, but it's not gone and
Now all of that being said Things can change
really quickly like in in social conditions and
what makes people competitive, you know, and
so As we were talking about before we went live,
you know AI is creating incredible disruption
right now in a lot of different industries and
so, you know, there's a lot of people who've
hyper specialized in certain white -collar laptop
jobs that are being obsolesced or you know, the
way it's really going to be felt is There's a
lot of simpler, repetitive work that usually
early career people tend to do, like at law firms
or investment banks and that sort of thing. And
that kind of work is especially where AI is going
to contract those fields. So as that happens,
these elite schools that are kind of like the
pathways to those desirable fields, in certain
cases the cost -benefit analysis shifts a little
bit. But that's just purely on the what are the
benefits side, right? Sure. On the cost side,
even though almost all of the Ivy Leagues were
founded as Christian schools, they're today not
all that friendly or hospitable to conservative
Christians. And probably the real challenge is
there's not really strong conservative Protestant
student organizations in these places, in most
of them. So there's a challenge, I think, with
young kids going into these environments. And
it's the faculty, but then it's also the peer
pressure and the lack of having basically a conservative
Christian support group to plug into that in
many cases can pull people away from the faith
or at least cause them to compromise. So all
of which boils down to like if you had like a
really ambitious kid Who was really well grounded
in their faith? Well, like very confident intellectually
and a little bit disagreeable, you know follow
the herd type I think an Ivy League is a is a
really good choice for a kid like that and it
does You know even to this day offer some opportunities
that are probably going to be almost impossible
to get other places Okay, so So you think that
that's a viable option for a Christian family,
wanting to raise Christian young people into
Christian adults. And we would further add, or
at least Josh would further add, that that's
a good place to do that and have those adults
turn into an elite, kind of enter that elite
class and be able to be in a position to rule
well, to operate companies well. Yeah, but let
me caveat that a little bit. You shouldn't I
don't think Ivy Leagues are doing the lion's
share of education anymore I think that they've
gotten much more specialized and they've gotten
more focused on getting kids into good jobs rather
than Like educating well -formed well -rounded
individuals. So that that I would say like it's
it's What's the Ivy League doing for them? It's
getting them access to opportunities. It's helping
them get a good network But it's it's probably
a lot of the most important intellectual Formation
is not going to happen the kind of formation
that we would probably say we want a leader to
have in terms of moral formation character formation
That's not going to happen in an Ivy League.
It's really much more about skills now. Okay,
so with that in mind Let's have a hypothetical
student, right? We got a kid that has all these
criteria that you established. He's not a follower.
He's gonna stick to his guns. He's disagreeable.
He's intelligent enough, talented enough, has
the resume to get into an Ivy League school.
How do we make sure that that kid continues moral
formation and raising up into a virtuous elite,
into a kind of elite that we would like to be
in charge of things? Yeah, well, I mean the first
thing would be what's happened in that child's
life before they turned 18 I Mean in pre -modern
times you were an adult well before you turned
18, right? So I I tend to think like a lot of
the cake is baked. Okay before 18 so You're leaning
on what's the formation, the education that's
happened up until that point, that's probably
the most important thing. So the Ivy League kind
of becomes almost like a crucible, right, to
test this. Yeah, yeah, no, totally. But then
secondarily to that, like, okay, I mean, I think
the thing you definitely would have to say is
that conservative Christians generally need better
support groups in these Ivy Leagues. That would
be You know, I when I went through I went through
Harvard Law School So I actually went to a Southern
Baptist school for undergrad union in West Tennessee,
but went to Harvard for law school and when I
went through There was an evangelical group there
was not How can I say this it it the topics that
they tended to cover were things like hey like
Why does the Bible teach us that we have to pursue
immigration justice or things like that? It was
very sort of lefty evangelical. Sounds like cultural
followers, really. Yeah, like a lot of the Christian
groups at Ivy's are going to be like that. In
my particular case, I ended up falling in and
making friends with Catholics mainly because
they had more intellectual confidence, they were
a little bit more disagreeable, they weren't
intimidated by being around an Ivy League. So,
not all, but many of the evangelicals I knew
were kind of... Squishy, perhaps? Well, they
were squishy, but deeper than that, they were
kind of embarrassed, they were kind of insecure.
And so, like, when they didn't really bring their
faith into the law, like into what they were
doing professionally, they were... And to the
extent that they did, they tried to emphasize
points where, in their view, the faith overlapped
with the priorities of the consensus views on
the campus. But on the flip side, the Catholic
students, they had read Aquinas. They had been
through rigorous theological training, and they
had an intellectual confidence in a network.
We you know if I were the you know, if I could
just wave a wand and make it happen They're like,
okay. How do we get very rigorous very intense
very confident like Protestant student organizations
at these institutions is that that's it. I think
that's direly needed Well is there is that an
opportunity like it? I mean, we're talking about
wanting to see elite formation I mean is this
an opportunity for somebody to start, you know
making It makes me think of Charlie Kirk, right?
Of course, he started Turning Point, which I
don't know if Turning Point is kind of the idea.
I don't know if Harvard has like a Turning Point
chapter, but this is a guy who was an evangelical.
He was clearly very secure in his faith and probably
had the intellectual chops to do something like
Harvard, Yale, whatever. Don't know what his
IQ was, but he always struck me as very smart.
And I don't know that anybody is saying, well,
you got to start something like Turning Point,
but is there an opportunity? you know, a missing
need, is there a demand there for a robust evangelical
student organization that can support this kind
of thing in the ivies? Yeah, I think there is.
And, you know, one of the interesting things
is that, you know, it's At a lot of these places,
it's not like a departure from their own tradition.
It's actually like a return. I mean, you could
really anchor it in the deep history of a lot
of these places. Harvard was founded to educate
Puritan ministers. Yale was founded to educate
Presbyterian ministers. Well, they're Puritan
ministers. So too was Princeton. Go down the
list. The founders of these people were deeply
religious. Cotton Mather founded Instrumental
and founding Yale. And so, yeah, there's a deep
history. And I think in one sense, we need to
find a way to cultivate a recognition with American
Christians that we are the torchbearers of the
civilization that was capable of producing places
like Harvard and Princeton. not necessarily the
people running those institutions now, but we're
the ones who've kept the flame alive of Christianity
in this country, of self -governance and virtue
and all of the things that made our founding
possible to begin with. We're still carrying
that torch. And in some ways, we're the rightful
heirs of those sorts of institutions, even though
we obviously are very far from having serious
influence there now. So with our definition of
elites, we were talking before we started about
the idea of self -consciously trying to create
an elite class. And I'm an educator, K through
12 education and at a classical school. And,
you know, classical schools are a mixed bag with
regards to the kind of their adherence to sort
of post -war democratic liberalism. everybody's
the same and the education should be in such
a way that anybody can do it. So I guess the
question that anybody can answer this one would
be, is classical education for everyone? Is classical
education for the creation of an elite class?
Or is that just maybe a happy coincidence that
we hope for, but it's not necessarily a goal?
I would say it would be a high bar. It's just
a higher bar that we strive for. It's that degree
of excellence, like you were talking about, Josh,
with the colleges, the Ivy League colleges, they
carried a high bar of excellence. And that's
what's made them distinguishable from all the
other universities throughout history. They had
a higher bar. Excellence draws excellence. I
just think that we need to create our own Standards.
Yeah, I think I think we are capable of unique
excellence. I think we can we can sift through
the standards that they've created and Refine
that even more so and make it even better Yeah,
yeah the Ivy leagues are very self -conscious
about the fact that they are training elites
They'll get you in there and the first day they'll
say, you know, okay, like welcome to America's
elite. We're here to teach you how to be an elite.
And they say that in very differing ways, but
that is the basic message. They're not quiet
about it. And I do think, I will be, it's not
just post -World War II, it's a little un -American
in a very deep way, like in this way. When we
were founded, the people who first came to this
country and settled it, we were From top to bottom
of society exceptionally elite like everybody
was a high performer from top to bottom We were
like a nation of elites and that's like why I
mean when when we found it as ourselves when
we were founded as a country Like John Adams,
you know and a lot of the other guys they would
say, you know Look, most people are not capable
of self -governance, but we we are and and why
it wasn't an arrogance But it was a it was a
gratitude and a recognition that the people who
founded this country were very literate, they
had exceptional moral character that had been
shaped by, frankly, Christian morality for hundreds
of years. And so there's an old American egalitarianism
that does sort of say we're all elites, and we're
all, in some sense, we're all equal. Yeah, there's
minor differences, and some people do a little
better than others, but... the more modern, I
think, social stratification. We have levels
of poor education and frankly just barbaric behavior
in our society that couldn't have even been imagined
200 years ago. And so now, yes, I think as a
basic matter of realism, we kind of have to say...
our kids are probably going to be elites. They're
going to, they're very likely to be high performers,
have higher character than the average American.
And it's not to be boastful or to be arrogant.
It's just reality. But isn't that desirable?
It is. I think it is. Yes. Because, I mean, we
want, we want kids who've got, have good moral
formation to be the ones leading society. Yeah.
Definitely. Yeah, I can remember at the last
conference for the Association of Classical Christian
Schools, there was a Leaders Day conference,
and they brought in a really great panel of speakers
to do individual talks, and then they did kind
of a discussion. One of them was Clifford Humphrey.
I would encourage you to read there's a group
of guys that have gotten together they call themselves
a go gay which is I think it's Greek for like
struggle or striving something like that I can't
recall exactly but if you can go find their written
work at a go gay classical comm or org rather
it's dot org and at that conference there was
a Q &A panel and I don't remember what the question
even was but Clifford's answer really struck
me And he said, you know, classical education
is for anyone, but it's not for everyone. And
I have used that several times in the sense that
like, you know, in America, it's classical education
is a growing thing. And people are, it's growing
because it's being recognized as excellent. And
parents, whether they want to admit it or not,
in many cases are like, I want my kids to achieve
much. I want them to even surpass me. to have
opportunities to be able to do what they wish
to do. And that requires a certain kind of education
to be able to take on challenges and meet new
things. And so not everybody wants to do classical
and that's okay, but anyone could do classical
if they get on board and do it. And the ones
who select into that, I think that says something
about their potential to become elite in a society.
that they are wanting something different than
the current mass production education we've got.
And we're going to talk about this a lot soon.
We've got another episode coming up about classical
education. So we knew there'd be a little bit
of crossover. But your anecdote about how Americans
were very well read, I read somewhere that the
literacy rate at the time of the revolution was
somewhere like 97%. And you know another anecdote
to kind of back this up when the first settlers
came into Tennessee into the Watauga Settlement
area they went for like years without a government
at all because there was no crime They didn't
have a need for any kind of justice of the peace
or anything Eventually people came over and started
stealing horses and they had to they had to institute
a sheriff and things like that But they didn't
need it before then because all of the settlers
who came across came knowing this is gonna be
tough It's going to be hard work. They brought
their books with them. Their kids were grown.
They grew up reading Robinson Crusoe, you know,
at 12 years old or whatever and things like that
of that of that nature. And so, yeah, they're
out there chopping firewood during the day, but
they're reading the King James Bible and lengthy
passages at night. They're sitting through sermons
that are two hours long on Sundays. They're reading
what we would consider in most schools today
to be very advanced works for fun. And this was
an elite group of people. And so this is kind
of an American birthright in a lot of ways. Yeah.
And I again, like just harping on this point,
American evangelicals and conservative Protestants
in general, like we're kind of defying gravity,
like even as like much of society. Look at society
today. We're very socially Darwinian, right?
Like we allow people to impoverish themselves
with gambling. Like why is that? It's odd that
it's even legal, but we allow people increasingly
access to more and more drugs, marijuana, rampant,
of course, pornography use, and then just simpler
things like screen addiction. If you are born
into a practicing devout Christian family in
this country, the chances that that kind of stuff
is going to get you off track are much lower.
Conservative Christians in this country are above
replacement rate in terms of having kids. The
children of conservative Christians will be higher
performing. And the degree to which they're higher
performing has a lot to do with how intentional
I think we get about their education and how
much we're going to invest in it and how high
we set the bar. Yeah, I remember when I first
got into to K through 12 classical education,
it became pretty clear that if you set a high
bar that students tend to rise to it. And that's,
you know, there's going to be some who can't
and that's okay too. But asking them to do more
tends, even if they don't quite get there, it
tends to raise them up above what they think
their ability is. And so holding a high standard
for education and attainment and a desire to
do those things. And then furthermore, teaching
them why they should want that. You know, we
don't want to raise a bunch of strivers who just.
want to climb the corporate ladder for their
own sake. That's the moral formation component,
right? Where you want to bring kids along and
teach them like, hey, look, you're going to inherit
a society. And it has rules, and somebody has
to rule it. And you should want that. And for
the first time in, I don't know, maybe my whole
life, I can think of, today, nowadays, maybe
one of the first times that I can think of where
I would look at a kid who is ambitious, who is
capable, and say, you might actually consider
government service as a career field. That's
a legitimate option for you. Because up to this
point, I've thought, well, it's all just corrupt
bureaucrats. And I'm looking at the current administration
and I'm thinking there's a place for Christians
to get involved here and to start shaping not
just society in a holistic way, but like a policy
way. Like you can, you know, the way things are
now. There's never been a greater need. Yeah.
And there's just a there's kind of a hope there
And so I don't know. What do you think of that?
What do you think about government service as
a career path? Feel free to disagree, but You
know that I mean that changes right, you know
it Politics change. It seems like they're changing
more quickly every year now, right? I would say
oh man at a broad level. I think that more and
more power is going back to states right now.
Our nation is very divided, which means there's
a lot of gridlock at the federal level. I mean,
even Trump, I mean, it was like he passed basically
one big law since he's been in office, even though
he's got majorities. And that was treated like
some massive accomplishment, like, you know,
Congress barely legislates anymore, all this
stuff. The fight in DC is noble and I don't it's
good when people good people want to get into
that that's great but there's a lot of like the
corresponding thing is like there's a lot of
work that needs to be done and there's a lot
of need for effective Leaders with the right
commitments at the state level states are actually
much more corrupt than the federal government
is believe it or not because the corporate lobby
doesn't have a lot of competition and it has
less competition at the state level so, you know
a lot of A lot of state legislators are part
-time. They've got full -time jobs. And lobbyists
will just write bills for them to pass. And they
need help with ideas. They need help coming up
with good laws to pass. Especially at the state
level. There's there's really good opportunity
and will be for years to come The federal level
is going to be up and down, you know sure you
get Trump in there Then you get who's the next
guy? Yeah, you know that just changes a lot But
the state level that's going to be there's going
to be important work there for the next 20 30
40 years I even see a dividing line being drawn
within parties I think I think there's going
to be either a new party emerge or a lot of refining
of the conservative party. That's going to happen
soon. And I think that's where one of the big
opportunities for folks of faith can step in
and refine that. Like we've been talking about
in education, I think there's going to be a huge
opportunity within politics to really refine
that and make it something that you know, hasn't
been seen for a long time just because people
are so used to corruption in politics. What if
there was a party that, you know, took a staunch
stance against it? I think that would be huge.
Yeah, I mean, with the recent, I mean, the Epstein
situation, which we won't get into much here,
but it's causing more people to become more tired
of the existing status quo. the documents that
were released are a confusing mess, and it's
difficult to know what to believe, but pretty
much the trend that I've seen from almost everybody
is we're kind of sick of the way it is. And so
change may be coming, and now may be a good time,
if you're interested in that, to jump into that.
And to be fair, people in both parties have gotten
black eyes from Epstein. Their big name conservatives
have gotten black eyes in there, as well as,
of course, liberals. It's a time of realignment
politically, you know, Trump was a realignment
guy. He's changing He's bringing new people into
the party and he's scaring some people off and
whenever there's coalitional realignment like
as conservative Christians were like a plurality
of the voters in the Republican Party, but we
haven't really historically I don't think we've
gotten the concessions we need out of the Republican
Party platform relative to what we should be
getting given our numbers. And so I think like,
you know, you want to talk about Christian leadership,
what would a Christian elite do? Like right now,
a Christian elite should be sitting at the table
with other parts of the Republican coalition,
like forging a coalition, but also negotiating
to make sure that our highest priorities are
getting... represented in the GOP platform, and
I don't think we've been great at this. You know,
I think the GOP platform in recent years has
softened on abortion issues, softened on gay
marriage, softened on a number of other issues
where I think we could probably have a stronger
result if, you know, if we had elites that were
actually in the room. The elephant in the room
here is that, you know, a bunch of evangelical
so -called elites wanted nothing to do with Trump
and have basically said or done things, made
choices that made it so that they have absolutely
no voice in the Republican Party going forward
or in the conservative movement. Russell Moore,
right? David French. These were household names
that lots of Christians read and looked up to
15 years ago. And today, they're nothings in
the conservative movement. They're locked out.
Who are the replacements for those guys? How
do we raise up new people who are going to effectively
negotiate for our interests in coalitional politics?
Sure. I don't know if you know this off the top
of your head, but are there organizations that
are working to that end? I'm thinking of, we
mentioned Turning Point. We didn't mention them,
but Heritage. Are there people doing this? If
there's somebody who's interested in pursuing
that, where should they look? Yeah, I mean, I
don't I don't want to be too self -promotional
here Like this is a question and problem that
American reformer really cares about. Yeah, we
actually just carried a symposium Yeah, I think
we have one more to go but it's it's a long one
It's eight or nine articles on this exact topic
right the creation of an evangelical elite. Where
are the evangelical elites? Heritage is great.
Heritage is It's it's sitting on top of a complicated
coalition. It's got a lot to you know, it's got
a lot to manage And I would say that on the whole,
heritage is heavily weighted towards Catholics.
Again, I go back to my law school example, the
Catholics had good presence there. Catholics
are very organized and very strong in the national
conservative movement in a way that Protestants
don't have a corresponding strength. Now there
are some great Protestants at places like Heritage,
but it's not, you know, we don't punch to our
weight in these rooms today. And so yeah, I think
American Reformer is one of the few organizations
I know that's really working on solving this.
At an elite level like with our fellowship programs
and of course that what we publish as well Yeah,
that and that fellowship program opens up pretty
soon says I mean, yeah not to intentionally self
-promote But if there's people out there listening
to this that are interested in this idea And
you may be looking for a way to get a you know
toe in the water on this There's a fellowship
program that American reformer does every year
Reading heavy. There's some writing that goes
along with it There's a there's a retreat and
you'll be in a group with a bunch of other guys
that are that have their sights set on this kind
of thing Yeah, that's the cotton Mather fellowship
named after cotton Mather and like that's just
you know Let's just stop for a moment. Think
about this guy cotton Mather In one way you could
kind of see him as like the first American he
was born in America helped to found Yale helped
to innovate one of the first inoculation methods
ever used, planted a pastor in a church for a
long time, wrote a wonderful history book on
the early history of New England, like maybe
the top primary source, the Magnolia Christi
Americana, great work. And then he was also involved
in one of the first revolutions in New England
in 1688. Really really interesting polymathic
character, you know Renaissance man well -rounded
You know, so yeah, I think he's like a good model
And kind of reminds people like this is what
you know, if you're an American Christian like
this is your your heritage your history like
you we had Very impressive people in our past
who like built the foundations of so much of
what we enjoy now, right? So, um, you know, we're
thinking all of us in here are parents and we
we may have parents listening Is this a goal?
Is this something that we should be wanting for
our kids? Should we be hoping that they rise
to elite status? I guess that may be different
depending on the child But let's say hypothetically
you've got one that may seem to fit the bill
Could do it Do we want them to stay below the
radar do it? I guess maybe this is just an opinion
for each individual parent But I don't know.
What do you guys think would you like to see
your kids rise up to be? elites statesmen you
know corporate bosses those kinds of things I
Definitely would I mean I see There there are
differences in my kids And I see some of my kids
I'm not going to draw them out because I'll probably
listen to this but but some of my kids are more
suited for To this than others sure, but the
ones that are then yes, I mean I'm gonna you
know, prepare them as much as possible to...
I don't know God's plan, but I'm going to give
them all the tools that they need to do a cumbersome
task like this. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with everything
Jason said. I'll just add though that, you know,
it's in a classical Christian school to an extent
every kid that goes there... is going to get
this imprint of character formation in a particular
kind of education. They're going to experience
a high bar. And even if they're not, not everybody's
going to have the skills to become a world famous
politician. You've got to have next level instincts
and charisma. Some of that you're just born with
and it's really hard to train. But all of them
can participate in varying degrees to creating
an elite counterculture. Like, they're going
to, like, hopefully, Lord willing, if this whole
educational movement is successful, there's going
to be leading citizens in politics and business
and culture who have a classical Christian education.
And there's going to be people who don't quite
rise to the level of leadership, but they're
going to be fanning out into different parts
of society, like reinforcing norms, perpetuating
the culture that we're trying to do here. And
they're going to be integral parts of building
that culture. They're still going to be high
performers, and they're still going to have a
kind of elite education, a kind of elite formation,
even if they're not like world class at a certain
thing, right? Sure. And especially, as we said
before, like the children of Christians are likely,
increasingly likely in the coming years, to be
high performers. I mean, I think the current
numbers say there's about 50 million kids, K
through 12 in America, of which about five million
are being homeschooled or sent to Christian schools,
10 % of the forthcoming population. Now, the
share that's in a classical Christian school
is smaller than that, sure. But if you get 10
% that's being protected to some degrees from
some of the worst excesses of modern society,
they're getting some good character formation,
that's going to leave a mark on American society
in a way that demographers and historians, like
that's going to be measurable, like big impact.
And so all the stuff we do to build culture around
that is going to end up, has a chance to end
up becoming a marker of like high status, like,
hey, you know, we want to be associated with
that. We want to be part of that culture because
they're good, they're excellent, they're leading
the country well. Yeah, I'm thinking about the
demographics of your conservative Christian group,
and I don't have any stats in front of me, but
I'm going to make a few speculations here. I
imagine that families tend to be not broken as
often. I imagine that they tend to have larger
families. I imagine that they tend to be more
stable. In a lot of other ways that are you know,
these aren't things that you would think of as
a part of the education In the sense that they
don't learn this at school and yet I still think
that that sets kids up for long -term success
in in performance terms, right like what can
they do they're coming from Churches that believe
rightly they're coming from families that are
together They have lots of siblings. They know
how to cooperate. They learn a lot of skills
that are kind of hard to to teach in a classroom
setting, but that you learn through other ways.
And I can't help but wonder how much even those
little things that we don't really even think
about as part of their education, quote unquote,
are going to help set them up for long term success
in the formation of a cultural kind of bulwark.
I mean, one of the massive like emerging divides
in American life is between populations that
are having kids and populations that aren't having
kids. And, you know, on the whole, I mean, obviously
there's exceptions, but on the whole, conservative
Christians are getting married and having kids.
Not as much as, you know, really ideally we would
be, but we're doing pretty well. We're doing
a lot better than normal American society, which
is now below replacement rate in terms of fertility.
Like, it's a big problem. I mean, you know, an
economy that's shrinking is not, like, if your
population's shrinking, your economy's probably
not growing. A lot of things. How do you fund
social security? All these problems start emerging.
And really worryingly, a lot of developed countries
that have had things like South Korea or Japan,
their total fertility rates drop below one. They've
thrown so much money and so much brain power
trying to just inch that up to, can we just get
it back to one? Can we get it to 1 .2, which
is still way below replacement rate? And they
can't do it. It's a very tough problem. But the
divide, you know, you think about it. I mean,
there's there's a lot of people. You're a millennial,
I think. Are you a millennial? I'm a millennial.
I mean, half our generation will be like only
children or maybe they have one sibling. They
don't have kids like about half our generation
won't have kids. And think about how their whole
life trajectory starts getting different. So
once you're 40 or 50, it's very. Lonely life
trajectory. It's very tragic in a lot of ways,
but you know a huge chunk of society is is going
to be doomed to a lot of loneliness later in
life and You know whereas yeah, like on the flip
side of that if you've got healthy families that
have strong connections They're they're helping
each other right? Maybe parents are helping their
kids when they're trying to get their first house
And you know and then maybe the kids are helping
the parents when the parents get old There are
like all these durable Permanent advantages That
you just have and you maybe don't even think
about that much when you have when you're part
of a population group It's having a lot of kids.
So yeah, that's that's I think that's a major
factor that will get Increasingly important in
the coming years. Yeah stable family life and
stable home life and the things that come with
that. Yeah So we had talked about the ivy leagues
and we've been talking a little bit about classical
education We know that there's been some folks
trying to I don't know if they would I don't
know if they would call it this But I can't help
but wonder if there's a goal to approach higher
education at least and say well the you know,
the ivies are woke and Most state universities
are woke or paused or whatever. So we need an
alternative High elite level creation kind of
educational institution. And I've got a couple
in mind. I don't necessarily want to call them
out by name, but is this a viable strategy? I
mean, is this something Christians should want
to do? In addition to, Josh, we've already heard
your opinion that the ivies should be considered
a legitimate option for the right kind of student.
But is this another, is this kind of like a two
front war here where we can do both, or is this
just a waste of time? I mean, what's your opinion
on that? Yeah, I think I think you need to do
an all -of -the -above approach You know, I guess
I'll name a couple examples Well, here's a good
one and will not step on any toes University
of Austin Okay founded by Joel Lonsdale and like
what was it? 2020 I think pretty much straight
up as a as a protest against woke universities
Now Joe Lonsdale is a billionaire multi -billionaire
He's got a big network of other billionaires
who like the University of Austin. But I think
it's illustrative of, it's had some success,
but I think it is illustrative of the difficulty.
Even when you have a bunch of billionaires lined
up, you cannot create something that is equivalent
to a Yale or a Princeton like that. I mean, the
accumulated... Capital, I mean even the even
the capital right? I mean the the place like
Yale, you know or Harvard their endowment is
a Major hedge fund essentially over 50 billion
dollars in these endowments now And then all
the the physical infrastructure, right? They
have real estate and some of the best cities
in America With buildings that were built 400
years ago by famous architects They've got the
history like, you know, all these presidents
went to this school. There's some unbiable things
the networking The network effect around these
things is incredibly thick. So I think we need
to be realistic about what can be achieved with
these alternatives. Hillsdale's another one.
Hillsdale's done well in recent years. Both University
of Austin and Hillsdale are illustrative in the
sense that, like I said, there's sort of like
a sliding scale. the most elite institutions
are not aligned with conservative Christianity,
right? And then as you go down that scale, you
get to a place like Hillsdale University of Austin.
Neither of them are explicitly Christian schools.
Hillsdale's, I think they say they're, I don't
know if they're Judeo -Christian, but they would
basically say they're pro -Western civilization.
They like Athens and Jerusalem, okay? But you
can be an atheist and teach there and that sort
of thing. They're not sectarian. University of
Austin would be much the same. So both of them,
I'd say, are very friendly to Christians, but
they're not Christian schools. And then you go
further down the sliding scale and you start
to get into institutions, Patrick Henry, Grove
City College, New St. Andrews. You go down the
list that are at the higher end academically
of what Christian universities do, but have fairly
good. Commitments, you know, so so and I think
all of like all of these it's gonna be a case
-by -case Sure. Yes. So the right kind of student
may need to go to a new st. Andrews Yeah, or
they may not be this may be a kid who could hack
it at Harvard or MIT But maybe there aren't the
the curmudgeon the curmudgeon who's gonna disagree
and hold hold their gun So you want to send them
somewhere where they're gonna be steeped? further
in the culture that they've been raised in, and
you've got these alternatives as good educational
options for that. Yeah. Yeah. And I would even
say, man, if you're from, I think I've seen some
kids who've gone to NSA or something like that
who Maybe their family has a really good family
business, right? So maybe they already have access
to elite networks and business opportunities
through family connections, and they're really
going to NSA for the character formation and
the substance of the education. Same as these
other Christian schools I've mentioned. For the
kid who grows up in a middle class home in a
rural area, You know going to an ivy league is
sort of like a short circuit to getting sure
really good networks Well, I mean we've seen
that with our our favorite vice president, right?
Yeah, this is a guy who grew up in Appalachia
in a poor area not a great situation at home
and Made his way to Yale is that right in Yale,
right? Mm -hmm and now he's the vice president
now he's he's exceptional and I think that You
know people recognize that along the way, but
I'm sure he would have had more headwinds had
he not made his way to an ivy league You know
he probably wouldn't be where he is at least
not yet So he got I mean it's how he got his
professional start Which you know he he came
out of law school and went into the highest levels
of the tech world the venture scene There I met
met a lot of you know funders who would ultimately
you know help support his political career once
he once he jumped from politics From business
into politics and you know that again. That's
one of those things that you can't really buy
So that the ivy still have that in there in their
pocket, so there's there's definitely some advantages
to those I'm trying to think you know my favorite
Hillsdale graduate is mr.. Eric Prince But he's
an interesting example too because he came from
wealth already his dad was a was a industrial
kind of genius with I think he made engines first.
I can't remember now but Did very well in business
and and his son could have done anything that
he wanted to and so Hillsdale is where he picked
to end up going and I don't know what kind of
networking opportunities he would have got there,
but here's a guy kind of like what you were saying
that probably didn't need the networking. He
probably had a lot of those contacts and opportunities
already from his family connections. Maybe chose
Hillsdale because he thought the education would
be what he wanted rather than I've got to enmesh
myself with the elite class. I'm kind of already
in that class. So that's kind of a counter example
I would put to somebody like JD Vance who came
from. Nothing more or less and became You know
got handed this I say handed this like he didn't
do anything. He did work for it obviously, but
This helped him this helped him. You can say
that much at least I think what I think this
like discussion is good like we're getting on
the table that it's It's a student by student
assessment and it's also like it's a cost -benefit
analysis. We're looking at a lot of factors to
put my cards on the table like I kind of hope
that by the time my kids are in college like
that I'm part of businesses that really help
obviate the need to kind of short circuit the
networking by going to an IV. In other words,
I hope that I can send my kids somewhere that's
purely about character formation and the content
of the education. It's not really about what
place is going to help them get the best job.
I'm hoping that me or my friend network professional
opportunities for them that don't require them
to go through an Ivy League. I think you will
see more of that. I think more entrepreneurial
folks are really thinking hard about, rather
than giving the best years of their life to a
Fortune 500 or some massive organization, I think
they're thinking more about how can I build a
business that I'm going to have more influence
over, that can be a blessing to my kids or people
in the community. Rather than you know sure so
it's almost like you know we're thinking I can't
make Harvard right, but I could start a business
that That helps my network have a network. You
know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, and that's a kingdom
building Yeah, you could you I mean, and this
is it I'd say this is kind of one of the things
that comes along with kingdom building so That
kind of brings me to shift gears just slightly.
The concept of noblesse oblige, right? The idea
that if you are elite or if you have kind of
risen to a high level of society financially
in power of some kind, that you have an obligation
to nobility, that you should use your position
to, if you're in a position of rule, you should
rule well. You should rule for the common good
of society. If you're in a position where you
have a lot of wealth, you should use that well.
If you own a company, you should be looking to
make life good for the people that you know and
opening doors. I mean, there's a company that
is planning on coming here. Into this area and
I have heard it said that their goal is to hire
workers and pay them enough So that their wives
can stay home and raise families if that's their
desire And that's exactly the kind of thing that
I think of when I think of noblesse oblige if
they can do this thing They can make people's
lives better, and that's a core value of this
company so I think maybe that's kind of what
you're getting at Yeah, that's a big part of
it. And that's kind of like a corresponding thing.
I think you should not talk about elite formation
without talking about the obligations that come
along with elites. And I think that's probably
part of the problem with modern economy and modern
America is that we have a pretty selfish elite
class that does not have accountability to any
particular Community like maybe they're like
our elite class thinks of themselves as like
citizens of the globe Which creates diffuse responsibility?
I mean, they're very focused on problems like
climate change To theoretical collective action
problem, you know very out there But they don't
really have a lot of accountability to like,
you know, some particular group of people that
requires them to do like hard things and you
know, they don't have to generally they can kind
of insulate themselves from the effects that
their policies have on, you know, on their neighbors
on the other side of town. Sure. Yeah. So it
makes me think like if we could have a bunch
of elites that are members of local churches,
that that would be a great, you know, that's
a great check because you've got, you know, What
are you doing with your power? Not that the church
necessarily needs to see your accounting books,
but like, you know, there's an admonition, an
encouragement to, you know, do this for the kingdom,
you know, to borrow Jason's term. Like, do this
for the kingdom and the children of God and bless
them in that way. There's more of an accountability
to the church. It makes it more familial. It's
a relationship that has more To use the same
word again, just accountability. I mean, if you're
friends with the same group and you're all striving
for the same purpose, you're going to get called
out more if you're breaking the morals or the
ways of business, the mode of operation. You're
going to get called out by your brother a whole
lot more quickly than you would by somebody who's
trying to impress you. Yeah, sure. which elites
are surrounded by sycophants. That's kind of
one of the catches of it. Yeah, accountability,
it does require shared standards, for one thing.
So that's part of why we don't get as much accountability
on our lease is because we have this kind of
multicultural thing where we don't share a lot
of fundamental social values. We have different
values. You know, this is where like the school
can perform a function too, right? Because we
all happen to attend the same church here, right?
Like the us three, but you know, like, you know,
this school has people from, I don't know how
many, but many different churches who come here.
And there's a kind of community around this school,
right? And then where there's also a kind of,
that's its own kind of accountability. And like
this school is creating a bit of a counterculture.
So it's aggregating up from like a church level
to like a culture that is common across different
churches. Then you aggregate even up from that,
and you've got like a national classical Christian
education movement. And that's like a whole other
level of aggregation. But that's kind of one
of the, I guess, side benefits or utilitarian
functions I like about classical Christian education
is it's like it's creating a real, like a thick,
substantive counterculture. where kids are gonna
have common stories, narratives, their moral
imagination is being shaped in a common way.
And they're gonna have like a shared language
and they're gonna have shared values and that's
gonna make accountability better and more natural
too. Sure, yeah, one of the interesting things
we covered in a recent faculty meeting actually
was the ACCS did a survey. And it was on, there
was some academic questions on there about like
how students are doing academically, but a lot
of them were more like life questions, like how
likely are you to have a homosexual friend? How
likely are you to tell that person that you don't
approve of that, like that you think that that's
a sinful thing? How likely are you to be in church
and to stay in church? Or do you do that, you
know? So they ask graduates and they ask current
students. And there was a whole bunch of these
questions. I think you can probably find this
on the ACCS website, which is just classicalchristian
.org. And you can probably poke around and find
it. But they were very reluctant to initially
release the survey. And the fear was that people
were like, oh, no, it must have not been very
good. But they eventually put it out with the
caveat that, like, we were worried about releasing
this because our numbers look fake. They look
too good. And there were some places where they
were in kind of similar numbers with public schools
and home schools. I think they compared college
prep schools, evangelical schools, Catholic schools,
public schools, and home schools, and then ACCS
specifically, classical schools. And many, many
categories, they were more than one standard
deviation above everyone else in several things,
or below, if that's the case. It just made it
look very good. And it's the kind of things you're
talking about, like... its world outlook on family,
on church, on education itself, on your future
plans, on like all these kinds of, it's very
all encompassing. And so it was a very encouraging
thing to look at for us because we really value
our program and we think that it's the best one.
But it's always nice to see data to back up that
a lot of what we want to see happen, which is
primarily moral formation. And academic prep
is an excellent side benefit of that. That is
having some success. And this is kind of getting
towards what you were talking about, like the
families, the children of conservative Christian
households are gonna become high performers.
And it isn't necessarily just because they get
high ACT scores, although many do. It is because
they're just prepared for life. They have a good
outlook. Their fidelity to their upbringing is
strong. And I'm sure there's some horror stories
where there's anecdotes where people didn't and
things of that sort, but by and large, it's demonstrating
itself to be a successful project. And even in
a very simple way, there's all the positive stuff,
but also there's just harm prevention. Sure,
yeah. In modern society, there's a lot of...
traumatic stuff that kids get exposed to that
they shouldn't be exposed to. And that, you know,
so just even like at a very simple baseline level.
On this point, Scott Jenner wrote an article
on that data. Scott Jenner, he's a professor
at Boise State and now the leads the Simon Center
at the Heritage Foundation as well. Great, great
guy. But yeah, he wrote an article. I forget
the title, but it was for American reformer digesting
this data and you know, the point of it there
was like There have been attempts over the years
to demoralize Proponents of Christian education.
So like Christian education is hard. It's a sacrifice
the movement I guess it started in the 70s really
took off in the 90s a lot of people in California
attended to spring up in places where the public
schools were worst. And parents were like, hey,
we got to opt out. We got to find a way to get
our kids a better education. And even as that
movement was gaining momentum, there's been a
lot of high visibility mainstream press attacks
on Christian education. Or whenever if there's
somebody who's in the faith and then they leave
the faith, that gets spotlighted a lot to kind
of, frankly, I think it's just an attempt to
demoralize Christians and say, hey, the sacrifices
that you're making, budgeting to pay for the
private Christian school doesn't make a difference.
But it's being attacked precisely because it
really matters and it really is making a difference.
And so I love that kind of data because we're
often assaulted with random anecdotes of the
one kid who, oh, they went through Christian
schools all the way through and how they turned
out. as if that invalidates the approach, but
the data is very clear. Classical, or really
any Christian education, but classical fares
very well. It's generally going to, in most cases,
it's going to do well for your kids. Yeah. Being
a product of the public schools and now being
a part of the classical Christian education system,
I see such a distinct difference and such benefit.
We talked about we're going to do another show
on that. But I think that it's just undeniable
when you get into the meat and potatoes of it,
how much benefit it allows the kids coming up
in it. I would argue that it gives Ivy League
-esque benefit to kids coming out of the classical
Christian schools. It prepares them so much.
more vibrantly than public education, I think,
even can. I think their hands are tied at some
points. They're exposed to things, to a methodology
of teaching that is, in my opinion, just far
superior. So I'm encouraged by all this. I'm
encouraged by the things we've been talking about.
who our kids are going to be beholden to? Are
our kids going to be beholden to fortune and
fame? Is that what they're going to desire? Are
they going to desire things of the kingdom? And
I think if they come up through the classical
Christian schools, their eyes and their minds
are set on things of the kingdom. And that's
where the biggest difference is. They're able
to see the difference where kids coming through
public schools are conditioned to worldly standards.
So that's what they're beholden to, naturally.
That's what their reflexes react to, where our
kids are able to see the difference. They're
able to speak both languages and to traverse
both. I think that's a big difference. What do
you think about that? Well, I think this reminds
me again of the... the talk from Clifford Humphrey
and the other guys, Colin Redemer and Ryan Hamill
and Josh Gibbs, I think was the other one in
that. And their overall topic was all education
is political. And so it was an interesting, and
I think it was an intentionally, not inflammatory
is too broad a word, but they knew it was gonna
be a controversial thing to say. when they got
into it and they defined political, what they
meant by that was that all education is aimed
at teaching people how to order society for the
good life, which is an Aristotelian kind of definition
of that. And so when you have classical education,
what you're doing is you're forming the kids
and shaping them and guiding them in such a way
that their understanding of what the good life
is, is not I want to be a twitch streamer or
I want to get rich on on being a you know, whatever
youtuber like they they They don't see necessarily
fame and fortune as the good life I'm sure that
they're tempted by that the same as everyone
else, but they can hopefully look at the world
and say I hope to have a family I hope to put
food on the table. They can see past it. Yeah.
They recognize that there's something more and
better and fundamental. But what you're trying
to get at, like really down at the core there
is like, this is what the good life is. And public
schools are not equipped to even tell them that.
So the kids are just adrift. And the way that
they're getting that, because everybody wants
to know the answer to that question, where they're
getting it is on TikTok. And what do their friends
say? And it seems like having a nice car is fun.
So I should get money for that. I should do this
thing and that thing. And they're just kind of
adrift. And with classical, you're really anchored.
And you've got a way to say, look, our people,
Christians and American Christians, and in our
case, Tennessee Christians, have said the good
life looks like this. Now let's discuss that
and let's evaluate it. So they've got a context
for knowing what has made my people happy in
the past. You teach them that past, correct me
too. Yeah, and Jason, one other thought that
your comment sparked. I think that in the Christian
community, to criticize ourselves a little bit,
at some times in the past, we have poo -pooed
ambition. You said classical schools are going
to create kids who want to build the kingdom.
They're motivated by that. you're touching on
godly ambition. I think that oftentimes conservative
evangelicals have failed to have a category for
what godly ambition looks like. They don't understand
that it means the correct ordering of all of
these things, like have a family, provide for
your family, have a church community. um neighbors
you know business school that you're that you're
providing for like it should it's a good ambition
to say i want to provide for all of those things
but it's all of course it's like all subject
to these things that like i mean ultimately like
god has told us are part of the good life this
is how you like it's how he wants us to live
as creatures in this world and when we follow
like his ways we're happier and healthier and
it blesses you know everybody around us and to
have an ambition for that. I think that at times,
evangelicals have been prone to jump purely to
the spiritual aspects. It's just about evangelism.
And they forget that all of those other things
along the way are some of the most effective
evangelistic tools. Your kids are your first
mission field. Before you go overseas or do anything
else, You know like evangelism starts in in your
own house and like how you disciple and raise
your kids And then you know, and then of course
it spills out to your neighbor and it spills
out You know to the broader community from there
to the ends of the world, but you got to have
everything in the right, you know order and you
got to you got to understand what's the good
life look like that we need to have an ambition
for like Securing that for making sure that we're
gonna provide that for the next generation In
some cases, that means somebody is going to have
to go make a bunch of money, right? Or find themselves
in a position of power. Many times it will mean
that. And it should not be just for its own sake.
It should be for what you're talking about. An
oversimplification that I recently learned is
there are two kingdoms. One kingdom is creative
and constructive. The other kingdom is destructive.
That's an oversimplification, of course. But
that's one way to parse yourself for the viewpoint
of distinguishing the different directives and
the kingdoms. The outlook that our kids will
have if they look towards God's kingdom and realize
that that is a constructive and ordered, just
a way of life. So, yeah. That's like, it reminds
me of Augustine, right? And the two cities, two
kingdoms. they're defined by their different
loves. And the earthly kingdom is defined by
disordered loves. It elevates certain things
over others. It elevates power, money, or sex,
or whatever, for their own sake. Whereas the
Christian way of life puts those things in the
proper order. They're serving the right ends.
And you know the I mean really the definition
of like sin. I mean in some ways is like Applying
the wrong order to things like elevating certain
created things over the creator or over the you
know over the way in which the creator designed
for them to be used like, you know, so Yeah,
I mean the diss the disorder is really like the
chief I mean and yeah, I guess to put a to put
it really bluntly like Kids coming out of a lot
of public education aren't getting Formed into
the right. They're not being taught how to order
Like their loves to order, you know to orient
their ambition toward the right things Well,
they're being taught that disorder is good in
a lot of cases. Yeah that you know the things
that that we value ordered is Is to be looked
down on and the way we ordered it You know, the
way God orders it, I should say, is looked down
on. So their version of order is actually disorder.
Yep. Well, do we need to talk about the gloves
again? We can. Have you been able to use your
gloves? I have actually used them quite a bit.
A lot of firewood handling. We have a sponsor.
Oh, really? Yes. You should get a pair of these
gloves. This is Bare Knuckles. Yeah, like the
animal and they make all kinds of gloves work
gloves that I think they started with rodeo gloves
and then they they kind of expanded a lot, you
know kind of heavy duty like lineman repair gloves
and just the kind that they sent us some and
I've been wearing this pair of buffalo hide gloves
work gloves and I don't wear any others anymore
basically so I had a lot of firewood over the
break because we had we had some some snow and
ice around here and I always look for those when
I went out there to get the firewood and bring
it in. It was nice. Yeah, but they continue to
impress me. Just the quality and everything.
And if you enter Issachar in your checkout, then
you get 15 % off. Yeah, support these good people
and support the show that way. So Josh, we thank
you for coming on. This has been a good time
and hopefully enlightening and opening some people's
minds to, you know... You know, re -evaluate
the goals that you have for your kids and really
think big in some cases. And be thinking about
that for yourself, too. I mean, it may be too
late for an adult to think about going to Harvard,
but there's other ways to strive for excellence
and for that to be recognized and to order your
loves rightly. Use that to the benefit of the
furtherance of the kingdom of heaven. Thanks,
Josh, for being with us. Thank you, gentlemen.
Well, that wraps up another episode of the Men
of Issachar Podcast. If you have any topics you'd
like to see us cover or any questions, please
shoot us an email at IssacharPodcast at gmail
.com and we'll get back to you as soon as we
can. Also, visit ByBearKnuckles .com and check
out all their selection for gloves. They continue
to impress us and we'll provide you a link. in
the description so you can follow that and it
will enter in all the pertinent information.
But if not, just enter in Issachar in the checkout
and you'll get 15 % off. We appreciate you. Thanks
for listening and we'll see you again very soon.