WEBVTT 00:00:03.399 --> 00:00:06.000 Welcome back to the Men of Issachar podcast. 00:00:06.900 --> 00:00:09.060 We've got a man down this week because of illness. 00:00:09.839 --> 00:00:12.220 Jeff can't be with us because he's had strep, 00:00:12.279 --> 00:00:14.339 so throw up a prayer on his and his family's 00:00:14.339 --> 00:00:18.019 behalf. Mr. Josh Abitoy stops in to chat with 00:00:18.019 --> 00:00:21.899 us. Josh is a graduate of Union University, but 00:00:21.899 --> 00:00:24.620 after that he attended Harvard Law School. He 00:00:24.620 --> 00:00:26.780 is someone whose viewpoint and outlook are very 00:00:26.780 --> 00:00:29.589 informed and full of wisdom. I hold his opinion 00:00:29.589 --> 00:00:32.329 personally in high regard and I even call on 00:00:32.329 --> 00:00:35.950 him professionally. So I trust what he has to 00:00:35.950 --> 00:00:38.829 say. He sits on the board of a classical Christian 00:00:38.829 --> 00:00:42.490 school and has clout and a lot of well -respected 00:00:42.490 --> 00:00:45.530 circles. Some I would even go as far as to say 00:00:45.530 --> 00:00:49.570 worldwide circles. So sit back and relax for 00:00:49.570 --> 00:00:51.689 this fun conversation where we touch on a few 00:00:51.689 --> 00:00:54.590 different subjects that pertain to Ivy League 00:00:54.590 --> 00:00:58.469 schools, education, new elites. and a few other 00:00:58.469 --> 00:01:03.490 subjects. Terry Gant, Jeff Wright in spirit, 00:01:04.069 --> 00:01:07.829 and myself, Jason Gaw, strive to be Men of Issachar. 00:01:17.709 --> 00:01:20.049 Welcome back to the Men of Issachar podcast. 00:01:20.310 --> 00:01:22.989 I'm Terry here with Jason. Jeff, our usual co 00:01:22.989 --> 00:01:25.370 -host, is not with us today. He's out sick. hope 00:01:25.370 --> 00:01:27.709 for him to get back with us soon. We are here 00:01:27.709 --> 00:01:30.989 today with a guest, Josh Abatoy, and we are going 00:01:30.989 --> 00:01:35.670 to be discussing elite education and should Christians 00:01:35.670 --> 00:01:37.609 be pursuing this. So I think that we're going 00:01:37.609 --> 00:01:39.849 to have to lay the groundwork with some defining 00:01:39.849 --> 00:01:43.349 of terms. So I'm going to hand this off to Josh 00:01:43.349 --> 00:01:46.870 here and see, you know, we could talk about defining 00:01:46.870 --> 00:01:48.689 elite education. You want to break that into 00:01:48.689 --> 00:01:52.129 some pieces and tell us what you think. Yeah, 00:01:52.129 --> 00:01:55.209 thanks for having me, guys. So, elite education, 00:01:55.329 --> 00:01:59.329 that's a compound word, compound phrase. I think 00:01:59.329 --> 00:02:01.450 to understand that, you got to take it apart 00:02:01.450 --> 00:02:04.769 a little bit. What are elites? And, you know, 00:02:04.769 --> 00:02:06.909 I don't, Christians, you know, we don't talk 00:02:06.909 --> 00:02:10.710 about elites a lot, like in our churches or in 00:02:10.710 --> 00:02:13.590 a lot of Christian institutions. It's not elitist. 00:02:13.629 --> 00:02:18.500 Like, it's not a view that That elites are like 00:02:18.500 --> 00:02:21.039 the best or the most holy or something like this 00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:23.419 It's but it's a more to say that somebody is 00:02:23.419 --> 00:02:25.340 elite or to say that we're trying to do a lead 00:02:25.340 --> 00:02:29.360 education in a particular place is To recognize 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:32.539 that some people are going to rise to the top 00:02:32.539 --> 00:02:35.039 in terms of their abilities and their character 00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:38.280 And that's going to make them more fit to be 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:39.860 leaders. It's going to make them better leaders 00:02:40.820 --> 00:02:42.939 in their local communities and all the way up 00:02:42.939 --> 00:02:45.680 to large institutions or national, you know, 00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:49.500 level political issues. Elites are, you know, 00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:52.000 but just in the simplest way to put it, like 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:55.219 elites are people who have like excellent virtues 00:02:55.219 --> 00:03:00.000 that make them fit for leadership. And so education, 00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:04.479 elite education then I think is to say, you know, 00:03:04.599 --> 00:03:08.180 one, like how do you... How do you prepare somebody 00:03:08.180 --> 00:03:10.419 to become an excellent leader to have the virtues 00:03:10.419 --> 00:03:13.460 that a leader needs? But then also like what 00:03:13.460 --> 00:03:17.080 what kind of stuff what content of their education? 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:20.139 Should a leader have and that gets really interesting. 00:03:20.139 --> 00:03:23.979 I know, you know Those of you who study the classical 00:03:23.979 --> 00:03:27.460 education Perhaps more than I have it and I'm 00:03:27.460 --> 00:03:29.860 aware. This is like a very like dense literature 00:03:29.860 --> 00:03:31.879 there's a lot of books that can be read about 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:35.030 it, but just at a fundamental level like there's 00:03:35.030 --> 00:03:39.110 a big choice. American elites at a standard school 00:03:39.110 --> 00:03:43.009 right now, they're reading Fahrenheit 451 or 00:03:43.009 --> 00:03:46.590 whatever the latest fad is, and making a choice 00:03:46.590 --> 00:03:49.770 of saying, hey, if we're trying to do elite education, 00:03:49.889 --> 00:03:52.909 our kids are going to be reading Cicero and Xenophon 00:03:52.909 --> 00:03:55.430 and Thucydides. That's a very different kind 00:03:55.430 --> 00:03:57.210 of choice that's ultimately going to result in 00:03:57.210 --> 00:04:01.389 a different kind of leader, different character 00:04:01.389 --> 00:04:04.979 that you produce. But but yeah, I think elite 00:04:04.979 --> 00:04:08.740 education to say that you know to say that We're 00:04:08.740 --> 00:04:12.240 doing it I think is to say that we understand 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:15.000 that some people are going to be elites and they 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:18.639 are going to be leaders and As such we need to 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:21.180 think explicitly about how we want to be training 00:04:21.180 --> 00:04:23.680 them and what the content should be. All right, 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:27.000 so You know nature abhors a vacuum and I think 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:30.480 that's true for leadership If not more than anywhere 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:32.500 else, it's certainly as much as anywhere else 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:38.500 So we're going to have an elite. And we can think 00:04:38.500 --> 00:04:41.240 about this in a wide variety. We have our cultural 00:04:41.240 --> 00:04:43.300 elites. We have our educational elites. We have 00:04:43.300 --> 00:04:46.699 our political elites. We have our religious elites. 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:50.339 And so we're speaking here in pretty broad terms. 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:54.360 And what we're getting at is we have in mind 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:57.959 people who are leaders in these fields, who are 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:04.389 creating culture, who are creating the conditions 00:05:04.389 --> 00:05:07.649 for society, I guess, maybe if I could put it 00:05:07.649 --> 00:05:13.689 that way. So, you went to Harvard, and one of 00:05:13.689 --> 00:05:15.310 the questions that I think a lot of people may 00:05:15.310 --> 00:05:17.910 have now, because everybody still thinks of Harvard 00:05:17.910 --> 00:05:20.509 and Yale and Princeton and the other Ivy Leagues 00:05:20.509 --> 00:05:24.269 and other schools like those, are still turning 00:05:24.269 --> 00:05:27.079 out highly educated people. I think that's still 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:29.300 the case. I know that some of their reputations 00:05:29.300 --> 00:05:31.060 have suffered a little bit in recent years due 00:05:31.060 --> 00:05:36.600 to DEI and woke stuff So my question Would be 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:39.540 if I am interested in cultivating an elite young 00:05:39.540 --> 00:05:43.720 person a student Should should a goal be an ivy 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:46.300 league school or is there an alternative or how 00:05:46.300 --> 00:05:48.300 should we? You know, what's the best? I guess 00:05:48.300 --> 00:05:50.600 maybe what's the best track to get somebody into 00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:55.500 this kind of elite world? I don't think There's 00:05:55.500 --> 00:05:58.279 one track or one, you know, there's there's no 00:05:58.279 --> 00:06:03.459 one -size -fits -all best approach Twenty years 00:06:03.459 --> 00:06:05.860 ago, I think it was kind of more clearly the 00:06:05.860 --> 00:06:09.600 case that if a young person wanted to Get done 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:11.980 with school and get into leadership whether it 00:06:11.980 --> 00:06:14.560 be, you know vaulting right into working in high 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:17.139 levels in politics or think tanks or jumping 00:06:17.139 --> 00:06:19.920 into Really elite businesses like working at 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:24.079 Goldman Sachs or something The path to that was 00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:27.279 going to an Ivy League school or something equivalent 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:30.800 to an Ivy League Or if you were in tack you wanted 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:32.779 to go work at like the best startup, you know, 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:36.399 you go work it Go to Stanford or you go to MIT? 00:06:38.379 --> 00:06:41.699 I Think that that's probably softened a little 00:06:41.699 --> 00:06:45.339 bit in certain fields, but it's not gone and 00:06:45.339 --> 00:06:50.730 Now all of that being said Things can change 00:06:50.730 --> 00:06:53.649 really quickly like in in social conditions and 00:06:53.649 --> 00:06:55.529 what makes people competitive, you know, and 00:06:55.529 --> 00:06:59.430 so As we were talking about before we went live, 00:06:59.430 --> 00:07:03.029 you know AI is creating incredible disruption 00:07:03.029 --> 00:07:06.069 right now in a lot of different industries and 00:07:06.069 --> 00:07:08.189 so, you know, there's a lot of people who've 00:07:08.189 --> 00:07:10.970 hyper specialized in certain white -collar laptop 00:07:10.970 --> 00:07:14.269 jobs that are being obsolesced or you know, the 00:07:14.269 --> 00:07:17.399 way it's really going to be felt is There's a 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:20.100 lot of simpler, repetitive work that usually 00:07:20.100 --> 00:07:23.220 early career people tend to do, like at law firms 00:07:23.220 --> 00:07:26.220 or investment banks and that sort of thing. And 00:07:26.220 --> 00:07:28.620 that kind of work is especially where AI is going 00:07:28.620 --> 00:07:32.480 to contract those fields. So as that happens, 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:36.139 these elite schools that are kind of like the 00:07:36.139 --> 00:07:39.360 pathways to those desirable fields, in certain 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:42.319 cases the cost -benefit analysis shifts a little 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:46.199 bit. But that's just purely on the what are the 00:07:46.199 --> 00:07:49.660 benefits side, right? Sure. On the cost side, 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:53.899 even though almost all of the Ivy Leagues were 00:07:53.899 --> 00:07:59.600 founded as Christian schools, they're today not 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:03.160 all that friendly or hospitable to conservative 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:07.240 Christians. And probably the real challenge is 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:12.759 there's not really strong conservative Protestant 00:08:12.759 --> 00:08:16.120 student organizations in these places, in most 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:21.680 of them. So there's a challenge, I think, with 00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:24.839 young kids going into these environments. And 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:26.980 it's the faculty, but then it's also the peer 00:08:26.980 --> 00:08:31.740 pressure and the lack of having basically a conservative 00:08:31.740 --> 00:08:35.580 Christian support group to plug into that in 00:08:35.580 --> 00:08:39.000 many cases can pull people away from the faith 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:42.450 or at least cause them to compromise. So all 00:08:42.450 --> 00:08:45.110 of which boils down to like if you had like a 00:08:45.110 --> 00:08:49.190 really ambitious kid Who was really well grounded 00:08:49.190 --> 00:08:52.730 in their faith? Well, like very confident intellectually 00:08:52.730 --> 00:08:55.149 and a little bit disagreeable, you know follow 00:08:55.149 --> 00:08:58.750 the herd type I think an Ivy League is a is a 00:08:58.750 --> 00:09:01.169 really good choice for a kid like that and it 00:09:01.169 --> 00:09:04.570 does You know even to this day offer some opportunities 00:09:04.570 --> 00:09:06.549 that are probably going to be almost impossible 00:09:06.549 --> 00:09:10.429 to get other places Okay, so So you think that 00:09:10.429 --> 00:09:13.090 that's a viable option for a Christian family, 00:09:13.210 --> 00:09:15.129 wanting to raise Christian young people into 00:09:15.129 --> 00:09:18.470 Christian adults. And we would further add, or 00:09:18.470 --> 00:09:20.710 at least Josh would further add, that that's 00:09:20.710 --> 00:09:24.330 a good place to do that and have those adults 00:09:24.330 --> 00:09:27.590 turn into an elite, kind of enter that elite 00:09:27.590 --> 00:09:30.769 class and be able to be in a position to rule 00:09:30.769 --> 00:09:36.049 well, to operate companies well. Yeah, but let 00:09:36.049 --> 00:09:41.309 me caveat that a little bit. You shouldn't I 00:09:41.309 --> 00:09:43.889 don't think Ivy Leagues are doing the lion's 00:09:43.889 --> 00:09:48.129 share of education anymore I think that they've 00:09:48.129 --> 00:09:51.090 gotten much more specialized and they've gotten 00:09:51.090 --> 00:09:55.289 more focused on getting kids into good jobs rather 00:09:55.289 --> 00:09:59.610 than Like educating well -formed well -rounded 00:09:59.610 --> 00:10:02.990 individuals. So that that I would say like it's 00:10:02.990 --> 00:10:06.139 it's What's the Ivy League doing for them? It's 00:10:06.139 --> 00:10:08.500 getting them access to opportunities. It's helping 00:10:08.500 --> 00:10:13.299 them get a good network But it's it's probably 00:10:13.299 --> 00:10:16.940 a lot of the most important intellectual Formation 00:10:16.940 --> 00:10:18.820 is not going to happen the kind of formation 00:10:18.820 --> 00:10:21.679 that we would probably say we want a leader to 00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:24.240 have in terms of moral formation character formation 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:26.879 That's not going to happen in an Ivy League. 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:29.600 It's really much more about skills now. Okay, 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:32.899 so with that in mind Let's have a hypothetical 00:10:32.899 --> 00:10:35.399 student, right? We got a kid that has all these 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:38.240 criteria that you established. He's not a follower. 00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:40.960 He's gonna stick to his guns. He's disagreeable. 00:10:41.220 --> 00:10:43.360 He's intelligent enough, talented enough, has 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:45.559 the resume to get into an Ivy League school. 00:10:46.500 --> 00:10:49.679 How do we make sure that that kid continues moral 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:55.500 formation and raising up into a virtuous elite, 00:10:55.740 --> 00:10:57.580 into a kind of elite that we would like to be 00:10:57.580 --> 00:11:02.000 in charge of things? Yeah, well, I mean the first 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:04.340 thing would be what's happened in that child's 00:11:04.340 --> 00:11:08.899 life before they turned 18 I Mean in pre -modern 00:11:08.899 --> 00:11:10.919 times you were an adult well before you turned 00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:15.399 18, right? So I I tend to think like a lot of 00:11:15.399 --> 00:11:19.980 the cake is baked. Okay before 18 so You're leaning 00:11:19.980 --> 00:11:24.110 on what's the formation, the education that's 00:11:24.110 --> 00:11:25.750 happened up until that point, that's probably 00:11:25.750 --> 00:11:28.590 the most important thing. So the Ivy League kind 00:11:28.590 --> 00:11:30.570 of becomes almost like a crucible, right, to 00:11:30.570 --> 00:11:34.090 test this. Yeah, yeah, no, totally. But then 00:11:34.090 --> 00:11:36.289 secondarily to that, like, okay, I mean, I think 00:11:36.289 --> 00:11:38.970 the thing you definitely would have to say is 00:11:38.970 --> 00:11:43.789 that conservative Christians generally need better 00:11:43.789 --> 00:11:46.909 support groups in these Ivy Leagues. That would 00:11:46.909 --> 00:11:52.659 be You know, I when I went through I went through 00:11:52.659 --> 00:11:54.879 Harvard Law School So I actually went to a Southern 00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:57.639 Baptist school for undergrad union in West Tennessee, 00:11:57.639 --> 00:12:00.000 but went to Harvard for law school and when I 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:04.299 went through There was an evangelical group there 00:12:04.299 --> 00:12:12.500 was not How can I say this it it the topics that 00:12:12.500 --> 00:12:15.139 they tended to cover were things like hey like 00:12:15.769 --> 00:12:18.409 Why does the Bible teach us that we have to pursue 00:12:18.409 --> 00:12:21.929 immigration justice or things like that? It was 00:12:21.929 --> 00:12:27.389 very sort of lefty evangelical. Sounds like cultural 00:12:27.389 --> 00:12:31.490 followers, really. Yeah, like a lot of the Christian 00:12:31.490 --> 00:12:35.450 groups at Ivy's are going to be like that. In 00:12:35.450 --> 00:12:38.429 my particular case, I ended up falling in and 00:12:38.429 --> 00:12:40.809 making friends with Catholics mainly because 00:12:41.080 --> 00:12:43.799 they had more intellectual confidence, they were 00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:45.299 a little bit more disagreeable, they weren't 00:12:45.299 --> 00:12:48.279 intimidated by being around an Ivy League. So, 00:12:48.899 --> 00:12:51.139 not all, but many of the evangelicals I knew 00:12:51.139 --> 00:12:53.779 were kind of... Squishy, perhaps? Well, they 00:12:53.779 --> 00:12:56.440 were squishy, but deeper than that, they were 00:12:56.440 --> 00:12:58.539 kind of embarrassed, they were kind of insecure. 00:12:59.220 --> 00:13:03.059 And so, like, when they didn't really bring their 00:13:03.059 --> 00:13:06.580 faith into the law, like into what they were 00:13:06.580 --> 00:13:10.980 doing professionally, they were... And to the 00:13:10.980 --> 00:13:12.960 extent that they did, they tried to emphasize 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:17.120 points where, in their view, the faith overlapped 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:20.980 with the priorities of the consensus views on 00:13:20.980 --> 00:13:25.179 the campus. But on the flip side, the Catholic 00:13:25.179 --> 00:13:28.559 students, they had read Aquinas. They had been 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:33.759 through rigorous theological training, and they 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:35.860 had an intellectual confidence in a network. 00:13:38.289 --> 00:13:40.730 We you know if I were the you know, if I could 00:13:40.730 --> 00:13:43.210 just wave a wand and make it happen They're like, 00:13:43.230 --> 00:13:46.289 okay. How do we get very rigorous very intense 00:13:46.289 --> 00:13:50.610 very confident like Protestant student organizations 00:13:50.610 --> 00:13:53.070 at these institutions is that that's it. I think 00:13:53.070 --> 00:13:55.009 that's direly needed Well is there is that an 00:13:55.009 --> 00:13:57.429 opportunity like it? I mean, we're talking about 00:13:57.429 --> 00:14:00.269 wanting to see elite formation I mean is this 00:14:00.269 --> 00:14:02.850 an opportunity for somebody to start, you know 00:14:02.850 --> 00:14:06.529 making It makes me think of Charlie Kirk, right? 00:14:07.070 --> 00:14:08.730 Of course, he started Turning Point, which I 00:14:08.730 --> 00:14:10.549 don't know if Turning Point is kind of the idea. 00:14:10.809 --> 00:14:12.669 I don't know if Harvard has like a Turning Point 00:14:12.669 --> 00:14:15.470 chapter, but this is a guy who was an evangelical. 00:14:15.610 --> 00:14:19.190 He was clearly very secure in his faith and probably 00:14:19.190 --> 00:14:21.090 had the intellectual chops to do something like 00:14:21.090 --> 00:14:23.990 Harvard, Yale, whatever. Don't know what his 00:14:23.990 --> 00:14:25.950 IQ was, but he always struck me as very smart. 00:14:26.929 --> 00:14:29.450 And I don't know that anybody is saying, well, 00:14:29.450 --> 00:14:31.129 you got to start something like Turning Point, 00:14:31.250 --> 00:14:35.440 but is there an opportunity? you know, a missing 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:39.600 need, is there a demand there for a robust evangelical 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:43.379 student organization that can support this kind 00:14:43.379 --> 00:14:46.899 of thing in the ivies? Yeah, I think there is. 00:14:47.779 --> 00:14:50.200 And, you know, one of the interesting things 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:54.200 is that, you know, it's At a lot of these places, 00:14:54.220 --> 00:14:56.460 it's not like a departure from their own tradition. 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:58.559 It's actually like a return. I mean, you could 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:01.159 really anchor it in the deep history of a lot 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:04.179 of these places. Harvard was founded to educate 00:15:04.179 --> 00:15:10.320 Puritan ministers. Yale was founded to educate 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:13.539 Presbyterian ministers. Well, they're Puritan 00:15:13.539 --> 00:15:16.159 ministers. So too was Princeton. Go down the 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:19.179 list. The founders of these people were deeply 00:15:19.179 --> 00:15:22.379 religious. Cotton Mather founded Instrumental 00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:28.419 and founding Yale. And so, yeah, there's a deep 00:15:28.419 --> 00:15:31.159 history. And I think in one sense, we need to 00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:35.139 find a way to cultivate a recognition with American 00:15:35.139 --> 00:15:39.659 Christians that we are the torchbearers of the 00:15:39.659 --> 00:15:41.700 civilization that was capable of producing places 00:15:41.700 --> 00:15:45.149 like Harvard and Princeton. not necessarily the 00:15:45.149 --> 00:15:47.210 people running those institutions now, but we're 00:15:47.210 --> 00:15:51.730 the ones who've kept the flame alive of Christianity 00:15:51.730 --> 00:15:56.990 in this country, of self -governance and virtue 00:15:56.990 --> 00:15:59.210 and all of the things that made our founding 00:15:59.210 --> 00:16:01.990 possible to begin with. We're still carrying 00:16:01.990 --> 00:16:04.629 that torch. And in some ways, we're the rightful 00:16:04.629 --> 00:16:07.230 heirs of those sorts of institutions, even though 00:16:07.230 --> 00:16:10.610 we obviously are very far from having serious 00:16:10.610 --> 00:16:15.120 influence there now. So with our definition of 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:18.659 elites, we were talking before we started about 00:16:18.659 --> 00:16:22.480 the idea of self -consciously trying to create 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:24.919 an elite class. And I'm an educator, K through 00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:30.440 12 education and at a classical school. And, 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:33.720 you know, classical schools are a mixed bag with 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:36.759 regards to the kind of their adherence to sort 00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:42.330 of post -war democratic liberalism. everybody's 00:16:42.330 --> 00:16:47.529 the same and the education should be in such 00:16:47.529 --> 00:16:49.970 a way that anybody can do it. So I guess the 00:16:49.970 --> 00:16:53.029 question that anybody can answer this one would 00:16:53.029 --> 00:16:57.190 be, is classical education for everyone? Is classical 00:16:57.190 --> 00:17:00.289 education for the creation of an elite class? 00:17:00.649 --> 00:17:05.109 Or is that just maybe a happy coincidence that 00:17:05.109 --> 00:17:07.890 we hope for, but it's not necessarily a goal? 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:13.619 I would say it would be a high bar. It's just 00:17:13.619 --> 00:17:16.259 a higher bar that we strive for. It's that degree 00:17:16.259 --> 00:17:18.579 of excellence, like you were talking about, Josh, 00:17:19.140 --> 00:17:22.460 with the colleges, the Ivy League colleges, they 00:17:22.460 --> 00:17:24.180 carried a high bar of excellence. And that's 00:17:24.180 --> 00:17:28.000 what's made them distinguishable from all the 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:31.720 other universities throughout history. They had 00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:36.759 a higher bar. Excellence draws excellence. I 00:17:36.759 --> 00:17:40.740 just think that we need to create our own Standards. 00:17:41.140 --> 00:17:44.079 Yeah, I think I think we are capable of unique 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:48.279 excellence. I think we can we can sift through 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:53.119 the standards that they've created and Refine 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:57.319 that even more so and make it even better Yeah, 00:17:58.140 --> 00:18:01.640 yeah the Ivy leagues are very self -conscious 00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:03.759 about the fact that they are training elites 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:05.720 They'll get you in there and the first day they'll 00:18:05.720 --> 00:18:08.619 say, you know, okay, like welcome to America's 00:18:08.619 --> 00:18:10.789 elite. We're here to teach you how to be an elite. 00:18:11.910 --> 00:18:14.769 And they say that in very differing ways, but 00:18:14.769 --> 00:18:17.309 that is the basic message. They're not quiet 00:18:17.309 --> 00:18:22.309 about it. And I do think, I will be, it's not 00:18:22.309 --> 00:18:25.150 just post -World War II, it's a little un -American 00:18:25.150 --> 00:18:31.769 in a very deep way, like in this way. When we 00:18:31.769 --> 00:18:35.329 were founded, the people who first came to this 00:18:35.329 --> 00:18:39.920 country and settled it, we were From top to bottom 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:43.079 of society exceptionally elite like everybody 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:45.980 was a high performer from top to bottom We were 00:18:45.980 --> 00:18:49.740 like a nation of elites and that's like why I 00:18:49.740 --> 00:18:52.119 mean when when we found it as ourselves when 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:55.519 we were founded as a country Like John Adams, 00:18:55.819 --> 00:18:57.599 you know and a lot of the other guys they would 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:00.579 say, you know Look, most people are not capable 00:19:00.579 --> 00:19:03.319 of self -governance, but we we are and and why 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:05.720 it wasn't an arrogance But it was a it was a 00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:08.920 gratitude and a recognition that the people who 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:11.460 founded this country were very literate, they 00:19:11.460 --> 00:19:14.799 had exceptional moral character that had been 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:18.359 shaped by, frankly, Christian morality for hundreds 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:25.480 of years. And so there's an old American egalitarianism 00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:28.859 that does sort of say we're all elites, and we're 00:19:28.859 --> 00:19:32.960 all, in some sense, we're all equal. Yeah, there's 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:34.740 minor differences, and some people do a little 00:19:34.740 --> 00:19:40.819 better than others, but... the more modern, I 00:19:40.819 --> 00:19:45.200 think, social stratification. We have levels 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:49.039 of poor education and frankly just barbaric behavior 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:52.200 in our society that couldn't have even been imagined 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:56.339 200 years ago. And so now, yes, I think as a 00:19:56.339 --> 00:20:00.099 basic matter of realism, we kind of have to say... 00:19:59.630 --> 00:20:02.250 our kids are probably going to be elites. They're 00:20:02.250 --> 00:20:04.789 going to, they're very likely to be high performers, 00:20:04.970 --> 00:20:07.849 have higher character than the average American. 00:20:08.049 --> 00:20:10.690 And it's not to be boastful or to be arrogant. 00:20:10.849 --> 00:20:12.970 It's just reality. But isn't that desirable? 00:20:13.430 --> 00:20:15.910 It is. I think it is. Yes. Because, I mean, we 00:20:15.910 --> 00:20:19.609 want, we want kids who've got, have good moral 00:20:19.609 --> 00:20:23.230 formation to be the ones leading society. Yeah. 00:20:23.670 --> 00:20:28.710 Definitely. Yeah, I can remember at the last 00:20:28.710 --> 00:20:31.349 conference for the Association of Classical Christian 00:20:31.349 --> 00:20:33.430 Schools, there was a Leaders Day conference, 00:20:33.450 --> 00:20:35.930 and they brought in a really great panel of speakers 00:20:35.930 --> 00:20:38.069 to do individual talks, and then they did kind 00:20:38.069 --> 00:20:40.549 of a discussion. One of them was Clifford Humphrey. 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:44.980 I would encourage you to read there's a group 00:20:44.980 --> 00:20:47.119 of guys that have gotten together they call themselves 00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:50.420 a go gay which is I think it's Greek for like 00:20:50.420 --> 00:20:52.359 struggle or striving something like that I can't 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:55.099 recall exactly but if you can go find their written 00:20:55.099 --> 00:20:58.759 work at a go gay classical comm or org rather 00:20:58.759 --> 00:21:01.400 it's dot org and at that conference there was 00:21:01.400 --> 00:21:03.380 a Q &A panel and I don't remember what the question 00:21:03.380 --> 00:21:05.740 even was but Clifford's answer really struck 00:21:05.740 --> 00:21:09.880 me And he said, you know, classical education 00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:13.559 is for anyone, but it's not for everyone. And 00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:16.240 I have used that several times in the sense that 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:19.859 like, you know, in America, it's classical education 00:21:19.859 --> 00:21:23.000 is a growing thing. And people are, it's growing 00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:25.660 because it's being recognized as excellent. And 00:21:25.660 --> 00:21:27.319 parents, whether they want to admit it or not, 00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:30.839 in many cases are like, I want my kids to achieve 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:34.700 much. I want them to even surpass me. to have 00:21:34.700 --> 00:21:36.759 opportunities to be able to do what they wish 00:21:36.759 --> 00:21:39.539 to do. And that requires a certain kind of education 00:21:39.539 --> 00:21:42.299 to be able to take on challenges and meet new 00:21:42.299 --> 00:21:45.319 things. And so not everybody wants to do classical 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:47.880 and that's okay, but anyone could do classical 00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:52.819 if they get on board and do it. And the ones 00:21:52.819 --> 00:21:55.400 who select into that, I think that says something 00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:58.579 about their potential to become elite in a society. 00:21:59.130 --> 00:22:01.890 that they are wanting something different than 00:22:01.890 --> 00:22:05.230 the current mass production education we've got. 00:22:06.109 --> 00:22:07.630 And we're going to talk about this a lot soon. 00:22:07.710 --> 00:22:10.029 We've got another episode coming up about classical 00:22:10.029 --> 00:22:12.609 education. So we knew there'd be a little bit 00:22:12.609 --> 00:22:17.130 of crossover. But your anecdote about how Americans 00:22:17.130 --> 00:22:19.970 were very well read, I read somewhere that the 00:22:19.970 --> 00:22:21.970 literacy rate at the time of the revolution was 00:22:21.970 --> 00:22:27.160 somewhere like 97%. And you know another anecdote 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:29.119 to kind of back this up when the first settlers 00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:32.119 came into Tennessee into the Watauga Settlement 00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:34.660 area they went for like years without a government 00:22:34.660 --> 00:22:37.180 at all because there was no crime They didn't 00:22:37.180 --> 00:22:39.259 have a need for any kind of justice of the peace 00:22:39.259 --> 00:22:41.660 or anything Eventually people came over and started 00:22:41.660 --> 00:22:43.880 stealing horses and they had to they had to institute 00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:46.160 a sheriff and things like that But they didn't 00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:47.880 need it before then because all of the settlers 00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:50.380 who came across came knowing this is gonna be 00:22:50.380 --> 00:22:52.460 tough It's going to be hard work. They brought 00:22:52.460 --> 00:22:54.099 their books with them. Their kids were grown. 00:22:54.180 --> 00:22:56.779 They grew up reading Robinson Crusoe, you know, 00:22:56.779 --> 00:23:00.200 at 12 years old or whatever and things like that 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:03.200 of that of that nature. And so, yeah, they're 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:05.180 out there chopping firewood during the day, but 00:23:05.180 --> 00:23:07.940 they're reading the King James Bible and lengthy 00:23:07.940 --> 00:23:10.000 passages at night. They're sitting through sermons 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:13.599 that are two hours long on Sundays. They're reading 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:15.420 what we would consider in most schools today 00:23:15.420 --> 00:23:19.220 to be very advanced works for fun. And this was 00:23:19.220 --> 00:23:21.680 an elite group of people. And so this is kind 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:24.740 of an American birthright in a lot of ways. Yeah. 00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:27.420 And I again, like just harping on this point, 00:23:28.119 --> 00:23:32.180 American evangelicals and conservative Protestants 00:23:32.180 --> 00:23:35.480 in general, like we're kind of defying gravity, 00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:40.500 like even as like much of society. Look at society 00:23:40.500 --> 00:23:42.700 today. We're very socially Darwinian, right? 00:23:42.700 --> 00:23:47.319 Like we allow people to impoverish themselves 00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:50.200 with gambling. Like why is that? It's odd that 00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:54.240 it's even legal, but we allow people increasingly 00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:59.559 access to more and more drugs, marijuana, rampant, 00:23:59.559 --> 00:24:02.039 of course, pornography use, and then just simpler 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:07.079 things like screen addiction. If you are born 00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:10.660 into a practicing devout Christian family in 00:24:10.660 --> 00:24:12.920 this country, the chances that that kind of stuff 00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:15.059 is going to get you off track are much lower. 00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:18.579 Conservative Christians in this country are above 00:24:18.579 --> 00:24:24.259 replacement rate in terms of having kids. The 00:24:24.259 --> 00:24:26.799 children of conservative Christians will be higher 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:31.799 performing. And the degree to which they're higher 00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:33.839 performing has a lot to do with how intentional 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:36.759 I think we get about their education and how 00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:39.240 much we're going to invest in it and how high 00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:41.920 we set the bar. Yeah, I remember when I first 00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:45.039 got into to K through 12 classical education, 00:24:45.420 --> 00:24:47.079 it became pretty clear that if you set a high 00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:49.640 bar that students tend to rise to it. And that's, 00:24:49.740 --> 00:24:51.119 you know, there's going to be some who can't 00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:55.940 and that's okay too. But asking them to do more 00:24:55.940 --> 00:24:58.220 tends, even if they don't quite get there, it 00:24:58.220 --> 00:25:00.279 tends to raise them up above what they think 00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:03.160 their ability is. And so holding a high standard 00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:05.380 for education and attainment and a desire to 00:25:05.380 --> 00:25:07.119 do those things. And then furthermore, teaching 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:08.740 them why they should want that. You know, we 00:25:08.740 --> 00:25:10.680 don't want to raise a bunch of strivers who just. 00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:12.880 want to climb the corporate ladder for their 00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:15.900 own sake. That's the moral formation component, 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:18.400 right? Where you want to bring kids along and 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:20.460 teach them like, hey, look, you're going to inherit 00:25:20.460 --> 00:25:23.680 a society. And it has rules, and somebody has 00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:26.980 to rule it. And you should want that. And for 00:25:26.980 --> 00:25:29.079 the first time in, I don't know, maybe my whole 00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:32.680 life, I can think of, today, nowadays, maybe 00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:35.039 one of the first times that I can think of where 00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:37.539 I would look at a kid who is ambitious, who is 00:25:37.539 --> 00:25:40.369 capable, and say, you might actually consider 00:25:40.369 --> 00:25:45.170 government service as a career field. That's 00:25:45.170 --> 00:25:47.450 a legitimate option for you. Because up to this 00:25:47.450 --> 00:25:49.789 point, I've thought, well, it's all just corrupt 00:25:49.789 --> 00:25:52.269 bureaucrats. And I'm looking at the current administration 00:25:52.269 --> 00:25:55.309 and I'm thinking there's a place for Christians 00:25:55.309 --> 00:25:57.710 to get involved here and to start shaping not 00:25:57.710 --> 00:26:01.069 just society in a holistic way, but like a policy 00:26:01.069 --> 00:26:04.390 way. Like you can, you know, the way things are 00:26:04.390 --> 00:26:05.990 now. There's never been a greater need. Yeah. 00:26:07.529 --> 00:26:10.089 And there's just a there's kind of a hope there 00:26:10.089 --> 00:26:12.410 And so I don't know. What do you think of that? 00:26:12.470 --> 00:26:13.769 What do you think about government service as 00:26:13.769 --> 00:26:19.130 a career path? Feel free to disagree, but You 00:26:19.130 --> 00:26:21.910 know that I mean that changes right, you know 00:26:21.910 --> 00:26:25.369 it Politics change. It seems like they're changing 00:26:25.369 --> 00:26:30.250 more quickly every year now, right? I would say 00:26:30.250 --> 00:26:35.289 oh man at a broad level. I think that more and 00:26:35.289 --> 00:26:38.140 more power is going back to states right now. 00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:41.920 Our nation is very divided, which means there's 00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:44.279 a lot of gridlock at the federal level. I mean, 00:26:44.380 --> 00:26:46.839 even Trump, I mean, it was like he passed basically 00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:49.160 one big law since he's been in office, even though 00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:52.400 he's got majorities. And that was treated like 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:55.480 some massive accomplishment, like, you know, 00:26:55.660 --> 00:26:57.400 Congress barely legislates anymore, all this 00:26:57.400 --> 00:27:00.240 stuff. The fight in DC is noble and I don't it's 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:02.319 good when people good people want to get into 00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:04.880 that that's great but there's a lot of like the 00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:06.599 corresponding thing is like there's a lot of 00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:08.099 work that needs to be done and there's a lot 00:27:08.099 --> 00:27:12.460 of need for effective Leaders with the right 00:27:12.460 --> 00:27:15.440 commitments at the state level states are actually 00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:17.339 much more corrupt than the federal government 00:27:17.339 --> 00:27:19.740 is believe it or not because the corporate lobby 00:27:19.740 --> 00:27:21.740 doesn't have a lot of competition and it has 00:27:21.740 --> 00:27:25.500 less competition at the state level so, you know 00:27:25.500 --> 00:27:28.819 a lot of A lot of state legislators are part 00:27:28.819 --> 00:27:32.059 -time. They've got full -time jobs. And lobbyists 00:27:32.059 --> 00:27:36.960 will just write bills for them to pass. And they 00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:40.240 need help with ideas. They need help coming up 00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:46.640 with good laws to pass. Especially at the state 00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:48.740 level. There's there's really good opportunity 00:27:48.740 --> 00:27:51.180 and will be for years to come The federal level 00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:52.880 is going to be up and down, you know sure you 00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:55.000 get Trump in there Then you get who's the next 00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:57.420 guy? Yeah, you know that just changes a lot But 00:27:57.420 --> 00:27:59.539 the state level that's going to be there's going 00:27:59.539 --> 00:28:01.960 to be important work there for the next 20 30 00:28:01.960 --> 00:28:08.039 40 years I even see a dividing line being drawn 00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:11.779 within parties I think I think there's going 00:28:11.779 --> 00:28:17.220 to be either a new party emerge or a lot of refining 00:28:17.220 --> 00:28:20.720 of the conservative party. That's going to happen 00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:24.180 soon. And I think that's where one of the big 00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:29.759 opportunities for folks of faith can step in 00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:33.319 and refine that. Like we've been talking about 00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:35.700 in education, I think there's going to be a huge 00:28:35.700 --> 00:28:40.000 opportunity within politics to really refine 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:42.390 that and make it something that you know, hasn't 00:28:42.390 --> 00:28:44.230 been seen for a long time just because people 00:28:44.230 --> 00:28:48.029 are so used to corruption in politics. What if 00:28:48.029 --> 00:28:51.529 there was a party that, you know, took a staunch 00:28:51.529 --> 00:28:55.869 stance against it? I think that would be huge. 00:28:56.750 --> 00:28:59.130 Yeah, I mean, with the recent, I mean, the Epstein 00:28:59.130 --> 00:29:01.369 situation, which we won't get into much here, 00:29:01.390 --> 00:29:06.690 but it's causing more people to become more tired 00:29:06.690 --> 00:29:12.259 of the existing status quo. the documents that 00:29:12.259 --> 00:29:14.319 were released are a confusing mess, and it's 00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:16.200 difficult to know what to believe, but pretty 00:29:16.200 --> 00:29:19.440 much the trend that I've seen from almost everybody 00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:23.000 is we're kind of sick of the way it is. And so 00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:25.380 change may be coming, and now may be a good time, 00:29:25.380 --> 00:29:27.940 if you're interested in that, to jump into that. 00:29:27.980 --> 00:29:30.480 And to be fair, people in both parties have gotten 00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:35.359 black eyes from Epstein. Their big name conservatives 00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:38.319 have gotten black eyes in there, as well as, 00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:42.839 of course, liberals. It's a time of realignment 00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:45.519 politically, you know, Trump was a realignment 00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:48.539 guy. He's changing He's bringing new people into 00:29:48.539 --> 00:29:53.140 the party and he's scaring some people off and 00:29:53.140 --> 00:29:55.220 whenever there's coalitional realignment like 00:29:55.220 --> 00:29:59.660 as conservative Christians were like a plurality 00:29:59.660 --> 00:30:02.920 of the voters in the Republican Party, but we 00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:05.099 haven't really historically I don't think we've 00:30:05.099 --> 00:30:08.740 gotten the concessions we need out of the Republican 00:30:08.740 --> 00:30:11.700 Party platform relative to what we should be 00:30:11.700 --> 00:30:15.700 getting given our numbers. And so I think like, 00:30:15.700 --> 00:30:17.460 you know, you want to talk about Christian leadership, 00:30:17.559 --> 00:30:20.140 what would a Christian elite do? Like right now, 00:30:20.200 --> 00:30:22.319 a Christian elite should be sitting at the table 00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:25.200 with other parts of the Republican coalition, 00:30:26.420 --> 00:30:29.319 like forging a coalition, but also negotiating 00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:33.099 to make sure that our highest priorities are 00:30:33.099 --> 00:30:37.940 getting... represented in the GOP platform, and 00:30:37.940 --> 00:30:39.619 I don't think we've been great at this. You know, 00:30:39.619 --> 00:30:42.859 I think the GOP platform in recent years has 00:30:42.859 --> 00:30:46.440 softened on abortion issues, softened on gay 00:30:46.440 --> 00:30:49.480 marriage, softened on a number of other issues 00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:52.180 where I think we could probably have a stronger 00:30:52.180 --> 00:30:56.480 result if, you know, if we had elites that were 00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:59.079 actually in the room. The elephant in the room 00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:02.200 here is that, you know, a bunch of evangelical 00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:07.640 so -called elites wanted nothing to do with Trump 00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:11.339 and have basically said or done things, made 00:31:11.339 --> 00:31:14.480 choices that made it so that they have absolutely 00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:16.579 no voice in the Republican Party going forward 00:31:16.579 --> 00:31:18.700 or in the conservative movement. Russell Moore, 00:31:19.099 --> 00:31:21.680 right? David French. These were household names 00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:24.839 that lots of Christians read and looked up to 00:31:24.839 --> 00:31:28.180 15 years ago. And today, they're nothings in 00:31:28.180 --> 00:31:30.099 the conservative movement. They're locked out. 00:31:33.419 --> 00:31:35.500 Who are the replacements for those guys? How 00:31:35.500 --> 00:31:39.140 do we raise up new people who are going to effectively 00:31:39.140 --> 00:31:42.359 negotiate for our interests in coalitional politics? 00:31:43.319 --> 00:31:46.420 Sure. I don't know if you know this off the top 00:31:46.420 --> 00:31:47.920 of your head, but are there organizations that 00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:51.099 are working to that end? I'm thinking of, we 00:31:51.099 --> 00:31:53.740 mentioned Turning Point. We didn't mention them, 00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:56.559 but Heritage. Are there people doing this? If 00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:58.180 there's somebody who's interested in pursuing 00:31:58.180 --> 00:32:00.990 that, where should they look? Yeah, I mean, I 00:32:00.990 --> 00:32:02.789 don't I don't want to be too self -promotional 00:32:02.789 --> 00:32:04.970 here Like this is a question and problem that 00:32:04.970 --> 00:32:07.490 American reformer really cares about. Yeah, we 00:32:07.490 --> 00:32:09.529 actually just carried a symposium Yeah, I think 00:32:09.529 --> 00:32:11.630 we have one more to go but it's it's a long one 00:32:11.630 --> 00:32:14.390 It's eight or nine articles on this exact topic 00:32:14.390 --> 00:32:16.869 right the creation of an evangelical elite. Where 00:32:16.869 --> 00:32:20.289 are the evangelical elites? Heritage is great. 00:32:20.789 --> 00:32:25.450 Heritage is It's it's sitting on top of a complicated 00:32:25.450 --> 00:32:27.769 coalition. It's got a lot to you know, it's got 00:32:27.769 --> 00:32:31.950 a lot to manage And I would say that on the whole, 00:32:32.250 --> 00:32:35.769 heritage is heavily weighted towards Catholics. 00:32:36.029 --> 00:32:38.890 Again, I go back to my law school example, the 00:32:38.890 --> 00:32:42.329 Catholics had good presence there. Catholics 00:32:42.329 --> 00:32:47.170 are very organized and very strong in the national 00:32:47.170 --> 00:32:50.069 conservative movement in a way that Protestants 00:32:50.069 --> 00:32:55.279 don't have a corresponding strength. Now there 00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:57.460 are some great Protestants at places like Heritage, 00:32:57.700 --> 00:33:01.200 but it's not, you know, we don't punch to our 00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:05.859 weight in these rooms today. And so yeah, I think 00:33:05.859 --> 00:33:08.680 American Reformer is one of the few organizations 00:33:08.680 --> 00:33:11.039 I know that's really working on solving this. 00:33:12.009 --> 00:33:14.950 At an elite level like with our fellowship programs 00:33:14.950 --> 00:33:17.730 and of course that what we publish as well Yeah, 00:33:17.730 --> 00:33:19.549 that and that fellowship program opens up pretty 00:33:19.549 --> 00:33:22.009 soon says I mean, yeah not to intentionally self 00:33:22.009 --> 00:33:23.490 -promote But if there's people out there listening 00:33:23.490 --> 00:33:26.509 to this that are interested in this idea And 00:33:26.509 --> 00:33:28.509 you may be looking for a way to get a you know 00:33:28.509 --> 00:33:30.890 toe in the water on this There's a fellowship 00:33:30.890 --> 00:33:32.849 program that American reformer does every year 00:33:33.639 --> 00:33:35.579 Reading heavy. There's some writing that goes 00:33:35.579 --> 00:33:37.579 along with it There's a there's a retreat and 00:33:37.579 --> 00:33:39.980 you'll be in a group with a bunch of other guys 00:33:39.980 --> 00:33:42.339 that are that have their sights set on this kind 00:33:42.339 --> 00:33:45.440 of thing Yeah, that's the cotton Mather fellowship 00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:47.680 named after cotton Mather and like that's just 00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:49.839 you know Let's just stop for a moment. Think 00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:54.359 about this guy cotton Mather In one way you could 00:33:54.359 --> 00:33:56.259 kind of see him as like the first American he 00:33:56.259 --> 00:34:01.279 was born in America helped to found Yale helped 00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:06.589 to innovate one of the first inoculation methods 00:34:06.589 --> 00:34:11.409 ever used, planted a pastor in a church for a 00:34:11.409 --> 00:34:13.929 long time, wrote a wonderful history book on 00:34:13.929 --> 00:34:15.530 the early history of New England, like maybe 00:34:15.530 --> 00:34:19.090 the top primary source, the Magnolia Christi 00:34:19.090 --> 00:34:24.610 Americana, great work. And then he was also involved 00:34:24.610 --> 00:34:27.929 in one of the first revolutions in New England 00:34:27.929 --> 00:34:34.400 in 1688. Really really interesting polymathic 00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:36.880 character, you know Renaissance man well -rounded 00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:40.440 You know, so yeah, I think he's like a good model 00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:43.539 And kind of reminds people like this is what 00:34:43.539 --> 00:34:45.199 you know, if you're an American Christian like 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:47.679 this is your your heritage your history like 00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:51.119 you we had Very impressive people in our past 00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:53.900 who like built the foundations of so much of 00:34:53.900 --> 00:34:57.710 what we enjoy now, right? So, um, you know, we're 00:34:57.710 --> 00:34:59.710 thinking all of us in here are parents and we 00:34:59.710 --> 00:35:01.710 we may have parents listening Is this a goal? 00:35:01.769 --> 00:35:03.269 Is this something that we should be wanting for 00:35:03.269 --> 00:35:05.829 our kids? Should we be hoping that they rise 00:35:05.829 --> 00:35:08.309 to elite status? I guess that may be different 00:35:08.309 --> 00:35:10.570 depending on the child But let's say hypothetically 00:35:10.570 --> 00:35:12.829 you've got one that may seem to fit the bill 00:35:12.829 --> 00:35:16.289 Could do it Do we want them to stay below the 00:35:16.289 --> 00:35:18.690 radar do it? I guess maybe this is just an opinion 00:35:18.690 --> 00:35:20.789 for each individual parent But I don't know. 00:35:20.809 --> 00:35:22.289 What do you guys think would you like to see 00:35:22.289 --> 00:35:27.000 your kids rise up to be? elites statesmen you 00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:30.860 know corporate bosses those kinds of things I 00:35:30.860 --> 00:35:35.699 Definitely would I mean I see There there are 00:35:35.699 --> 00:35:40.039 differences in my kids And I see some of my kids 00:35:40.039 --> 00:35:42.239 I'm not going to draw them out because I'll probably 00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:45.300 listen to this but but some of my kids are more 00:35:45.300 --> 00:35:49.039 suited for To this than others sure, but the 00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:53.139 ones that are then yes, I mean I'm gonna you 00:35:53.139 --> 00:35:58.019 know, prepare them as much as possible to... 00:35:58.019 --> 00:36:00.940 I don't know God's plan, but I'm going to give 00:36:00.940 --> 00:36:04.920 them all the tools that they need to do a cumbersome 00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:09.280 task like this. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with everything 00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:12.920 Jason said. I'll just add though that, you know, 00:36:13.099 --> 00:36:18.579 it's in a classical Christian school to an extent 00:36:18.579 --> 00:36:20.949 every kid that goes there... is going to get 00:36:20.949 --> 00:36:24.050 this imprint of character formation in a particular 00:36:24.050 --> 00:36:25.769 kind of education. They're going to experience 00:36:25.769 --> 00:36:29.690 a high bar. And even if they're not, not everybody's 00:36:29.690 --> 00:36:33.530 going to have the skills to become a world famous 00:36:33.530 --> 00:36:37.610 politician. You've got to have next level instincts 00:36:37.610 --> 00:36:39.670 and charisma. Some of that you're just born with 00:36:39.670 --> 00:36:43.070 and it's really hard to train. But all of them 00:36:43.070 --> 00:36:46.849 can participate in varying degrees to creating 00:36:46.849 --> 00:36:51.530 an elite counterculture. Like, they're going 00:36:51.530 --> 00:36:54.789 to, like, hopefully, Lord willing, if this whole 00:36:54.789 --> 00:36:58.150 educational movement is successful, there's going 00:36:58.150 --> 00:37:01.070 to be leading citizens in politics and business 00:37:01.070 --> 00:37:04.849 and culture who have a classical Christian education. 00:37:05.750 --> 00:37:08.329 And there's going to be people who don't quite 00:37:08.329 --> 00:37:09.869 rise to the level of leadership, but they're 00:37:09.869 --> 00:37:12.170 going to be fanning out into different parts 00:37:12.170 --> 00:37:16.570 of society, like reinforcing norms, perpetuating 00:37:16.570 --> 00:37:19.630 the culture that we're trying to do here. And 00:37:19.670 --> 00:37:21.550 they're going to be integral parts of building 00:37:21.550 --> 00:37:23.030 that culture. They're still going to be high 00:37:23.030 --> 00:37:26.030 performers, and they're still going to have a 00:37:26.030 --> 00:37:29.809 kind of elite education, a kind of elite formation, 00:37:30.130 --> 00:37:32.710 even if they're not like world class at a certain 00:37:32.710 --> 00:37:36.670 thing, right? Sure. And especially, as we said 00:37:36.670 --> 00:37:41.429 before, like the children of Christians are likely, 00:37:41.670 --> 00:37:43.550 increasingly likely in the coming years, to be 00:37:43.550 --> 00:37:47.010 high performers. I mean, I think the current 00:37:47.010 --> 00:37:49.510 numbers say there's about 50 million kids, K 00:37:49.510 --> 00:37:53.550 through 12 in America, of which about five million 00:37:53.550 --> 00:37:56.230 are being homeschooled or sent to Christian schools, 00:37:57.150 --> 00:37:59.750 10 % of the forthcoming population. Now, the 00:37:59.750 --> 00:38:01.409 share that's in a classical Christian school 00:38:01.409 --> 00:38:06.369 is smaller than that, sure. But if you get 10 00:38:06.369 --> 00:38:11.110 % that's being protected to some degrees from 00:38:11.110 --> 00:38:14.469 some of the worst excesses of modern society, 00:38:14.670 --> 00:38:16.909 they're getting some good character formation, 00:38:17.690 --> 00:38:20.369 that's going to leave a mark on American society 00:38:20.369 --> 00:38:23.090 in a way that demographers and historians, like 00:38:23.090 --> 00:38:26.730 that's going to be measurable, like big impact. 00:38:27.829 --> 00:38:30.730 And so all the stuff we do to build culture around 00:38:30.730 --> 00:38:33.730 that is going to end up, has a chance to end 00:38:33.730 --> 00:38:36.710 up becoming a marker of like high status, like, 00:38:36.869 --> 00:38:39.969 hey, you know, we want to be associated with 00:38:39.969 --> 00:38:41.710 that. We want to be part of that culture because 00:38:41.710 --> 00:38:44.559 they're good, they're excellent, they're leading 00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:48.780 the country well. Yeah, I'm thinking about the 00:38:48.780 --> 00:38:51.960 demographics of your conservative Christian group, 00:38:52.599 --> 00:38:55.360 and I don't have any stats in front of me, but 00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:59.639 I'm going to make a few speculations here. I 00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:03.019 imagine that families tend to be not broken as 00:39:03.019 --> 00:39:04.960 often. I imagine that they tend to have larger 00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:07.440 families. I imagine that they tend to be more 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:12.130 stable. In a lot of other ways that are you know, 00:39:12.190 --> 00:39:13.489 these aren't things that you would think of as 00:39:13.489 --> 00:39:16.050 a part of the education In the sense that they 00:39:16.050 --> 00:39:18.369 don't learn this at school and yet I still think 00:39:18.369 --> 00:39:21.030 that that sets kids up for long -term success 00:39:21.030 --> 00:39:24.590 in in performance terms, right like what can 00:39:24.590 --> 00:39:28.809 they do they're coming from Churches that believe 00:39:28.809 --> 00:39:31.230 rightly they're coming from families that are 00:39:31.230 --> 00:39:33.769 together They have lots of siblings. They know 00:39:33.769 --> 00:39:36.030 how to cooperate. They learn a lot of skills 00:39:36.030 --> 00:39:39.119 that are kind of hard to to teach in a classroom 00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:41.820 setting, but that you learn through other ways. 00:39:41.820 --> 00:39:43.880 And I can't help but wonder how much even those 00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:45.699 little things that we don't really even think 00:39:45.699 --> 00:39:47.739 about as part of their education, quote unquote, 00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:51.159 are going to help set them up for long term success 00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:56.320 in the formation of a cultural kind of bulwark. 00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:59.820 I mean, one of the massive like emerging divides 00:39:59.820 --> 00:40:03.920 in American life is between populations that 00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:06.380 are having kids and populations that aren't having 00:40:06.380 --> 00:40:10.239 kids. And, you know, on the whole, I mean, obviously 00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:12.179 there's exceptions, but on the whole, conservative 00:40:12.179 --> 00:40:15.320 Christians are getting married and having kids. 00:40:15.739 --> 00:40:18.300 Not as much as, you know, really ideally we would 00:40:18.300 --> 00:40:20.300 be, but we're doing pretty well. We're doing 00:40:20.300 --> 00:40:23.039 a lot better than normal American society, which 00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:25.599 is now below replacement rate in terms of fertility. 00:40:25.880 --> 00:40:28.579 Like, it's a big problem. I mean, you know, an 00:40:28.579 --> 00:40:31.460 economy that's shrinking is not, like, if your 00:40:31.460 --> 00:40:33.260 population's shrinking, your economy's probably 00:40:33.260 --> 00:40:35.739 not growing. A lot of things. How do you fund 00:40:35.739 --> 00:40:38.420 social security? All these problems start emerging. 00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:43.239 And really worryingly, a lot of developed countries 00:40:43.239 --> 00:40:46.780 that have had things like South Korea or Japan, 00:40:46.980 --> 00:40:51.659 their total fertility rates drop below one. They've 00:40:51.659 --> 00:40:54.539 thrown so much money and so much brain power 00:40:54.539 --> 00:40:57.039 trying to just inch that up to, can we just get 00:40:57.039 --> 00:40:59.280 it back to one? Can we get it to 1 .2, which 00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:01.280 is still way below replacement rate? And they 00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:04.440 can't do it. It's a very tough problem. But the 00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:07.539 divide, you know, you think about it. I mean, 00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:10.559 there's there's a lot of people. You're a millennial, 00:41:10.579 --> 00:41:12.780 I think. Are you a millennial? I'm a millennial. 00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:17.460 I mean, half our generation will be like only 00:41:17.460 --> 00:41:20.039 children or maybe they have one sibling. They 00:41:20.039 --> 00:41:22.579 don't have kids like about half our generation 00:41:22.579 --> 00:41:25.960 won't have kids. And think about how their whole 00:41:25.960 --> 00:41:27.820 life trajectory starts getting different. So 00:41:27.820 --> 00:41:31.420 once you're 40 or 50, it's very. Lonely life 00:41:31.420 --> 00:41:33.460 trajectory. It's very tragic in a lot of ways, 00:41:33.460 --> 00:41:36.699 but you know a huge chunk of society is is going 00:41:36.699 --> 00:41:39.940 to be doomed to a lot of loneliness later in 00:41:39.940 --> 00:41:44.579 life and You know whereas yeah, like on the flip 00:41:44.579 --> 00:41:47.179 side of that if you've got healthy families that 00:41:47.179 --> 00:41:49.420 have strong connections They're they're helping 00:41:49.420 --> 00:41:51.320 each other right? Maybe parents are helping their 00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:53.159 kids when they're trying to get their first house 00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:55.079 And you know and then maybe the kids are helping 00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:57.539 the parents when the parents get old There are 00:41:57.539 --> 00:42:02.139 like all these durable Permanent advantages That 00:42:02.139 --> 00:42:04.300 you just have and you maybe don't even think 00:42:04.300 --> 00:42:06.619 about that much when you have when you're part 00:42:06.619 --> 00:42:08.860 of a population group It's having a lot of kids. 00:42:09.139 --> 00:42:12.099 So yeah, that's that's I think that's a major 00:42:12.099 --> 00:42:14.760 factor that will get Increasingly important in 00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:16.940 the coming years. Yeah stable family life and 00:42:16.940 --> 00:42:18.880 stable home life and the things that come with 00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:22.940 that. Yeah So we had talked about the ivy leagues 00:42:22.940 --> 00:42:24.739 and we've been talking a little bit about classical 00:42:24.739 --> 00:42:27.019 education We know that there's been some folks 00:42:27.019 --> 00:42:29.719 trying to I don't know if they would I don't 00:42:29.719 --> 00:42:31.280 know if they would call it this But I can't help 00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:35.480 but wonder if there's a goal to approach higher 00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:38.940 education at least and say well the you know, 00:42:39.159 --> 00:42:42.260 the ivies are woke and Most state universities 00:42:42.260 --> 00:42:45.219 are woke or paused or whatever. So we need an 00:42:45.219 --> 00:42:50.610 alternative High elite level creation kind of 00:42:50.610 --> 00:42:53.230 educational institution. And I've got a couple 00:42:53.230 --> 00:42:54.869 in mind. I don't necessarily want to call them 00:42:54.869 --> 00:42:59.329 out by name, but is this a viable strategy? I 00:42:59.329 --> 00:43:00.550 mean, is this something Christians should want 00:43:00.550 --> 00:43:03.630 to do? In addition to, Josh, we've already heard 00:43:03.630 --> 00:43:05.530 your opinion that the ivies should be considered 00:43:05.530 --> 00:43:07.750 a legitimate option for the right kind of student. 00:43:08.909 --> 00:43:11.849 But is this another, is this kind of like a two 00:43:11.849 --> 00:43:13.849 front war here where we can do both, or is this 00:43:13.849 --> 00:43:15.449 just a waste of time? I mean, what's your opinion 00:43:15.449 --> 00:43:19.590 on that? Yeah, I think I think you need to do 00:43:19.590 --> 00:43:23.449 an all -of -the -above approach You know, I guess 00:43:23.449 --> 00:43:27.010 I'll name a couple examples Well, here's a good 00:43:27.010 --> 00:43:28.869 one and will not step on any toes University 00:43:28.869 --> 00:43:31.829 of Austin Okay founded by Joel Lonsdale and like 00:43:31.829 --> 00:43:34.829 what was it? 2020 I think pretty much straight 00:43:34.829 --> 00:43:38.409 up as a as a protest against woke universities 00:43:38.409 --> 00:43:42.570 Now Joe Lonsdale is a billionaire multi -billionaire 00:43:43.699 --> 00:43:46.059 He's got a big network of other billionaires 00:43:46.059 --> 00:43:49.000 who like the University of Austin. But I think 00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:51.659 it's illustrative of, it's had some success, 00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:53.619 but I think it is illustrative of the difficulty. 00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:55.380 Even when you have a bunch of billionaires lined 00:43:55.380 --> 00:44:00.159 up, you cannot create something that is equivalent 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:04.519 to a Yale or a Princeton like that. I mean, the 00:44:04.519 --> 00:44:08.000 accumulated... Capital, I mean even the even 00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:10.519 the capital right? I mean the the place like 00:44:10.519 --> 00:44:13.420 Yale, you know or Harvard their endowment is 00:44:13.420 --> 00:44:16.940 a Major hedge fund essentially over 50 billion 00:44:16.940 --> 00:44:20.440 dollars in these endowments now And then all 00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:22.179 the the physical infrastructure, right? They 00:44:22.179 --> 00:44:23.780 have real estate and some of the best cities 00:44:23.780 --> 00:44:26.559 in America With buildings that were built 400 00:44:26.559 --> 00:44:29.380 years ago by famous architects They've got the 00:44:29.380 --> 00:44:31.480 history like, you know, all these presidents 00:44:31.480 --> 00:44:34.119 went to this school. There's some unbiable things 00:44:34.119 --> 00:44:38.010 the networking The network effect around these 00:44:38.010 --> 00:44:42.110 things is incredibly thick. So I think we need 00:44:42.110 --> 00:44:44.710 to be realistic about what can be achieved with 00:44:44.710 --> 00:44:50.309 these alternatives. Hillsdale's another one. 00:44:50.710 --> 00:44:57.150 Hillsdale's done well in recent years. Both University 00:44:57.150 --> 00:44:59.170 of Austin and Hillsdale are illustrative in the 00:44:59.170 --> 00:45:01.289 sense that, like I said, there's sort of like 00:45:01.289 --> 00:45:05.219 a sliding scale. the most elite institutions 00:45:05.219 --> 00:45:08.179 are not aligned with conservative Christianity, 00:45:08.199 --> 00:45:11.420 right? And then as you go down that scale, you 00:45:11.420 --> 00:45:13.579 get to a place like Hillsdale University of Austin. 00:45:14.519 --> 00:45:17.739 Neither of them are explicitly Christian schools. 00:45:18.179 --> 00:45:20.099 Hillsdale's, I think they say they're, I don't 00:45:20.099 --> 00:45:21.480 know if they're Judeo -Christian, but they would 00:45:21.480 --> 00:45:24.059 basically say they're pro -Western civilization. 00:45:24.219 --> 00:45:27.059 They like Athens and Jerusalem, okay? But you 00:45:27.059 --> 00:45:29.559 can be an atheist and teach there and that sort 00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:32.880 of thing. They're not sectarian. University of 00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:35.579 Austin would be much the same. So both of them, 00:45:35.579 --> 00:45:38.619 I'd say, are very friendly to Christians, but 00:45:38.619 --> 00:45:41.219 they're not Christian schools. And then you go 00:45:41.219 --> 00:45:43.619 further down the sliding scale and you start 00:45:43.619 --> 00:45:47.159 to get into institutions, Patrick Henry, Grove 00:45:47.159 --> 00:45:50.639 City College, New St. Andrews. You go down the 00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:54.099 list that are at the higher end academically 00:45:54.099 --> 00:45:59.920 of what Christian universities do, but have fairly 00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:04.039 good. Commitments, you know, so so and I think 00:46:04.039 --> 00:46:05.940 all of like all of these it's gonna be a case 00:46:05.940 --> 00:46:08.119 -by -case Sure. Yes. So the right kind of student 00:46:08.119 --> 00:46:11.179 may need to go to a new st. Andrews Yeah, or 00:46:11.179 --> 00:46:13.579 they may not be this may be a kid who could hack 00:46:13.579 --> 00:46:18.300 it at Harvard or MIT But maybe there aren't the 00:46:18.300 --> 00:46:21.239 the curmudgeon the curmudgeon who's gonna disagree 00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:23.760 and hold hold their gun So you want to send them 00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:25.840 somewhere where they're gonna be steeped? further 00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:28.099 in the culture that they've been raised in, and 00:46:28.099 --> 00:46:30.559 you've got these alternatives as good educational 00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:35.579 options for that. Yeah. Yeah. And I would even 00:46:35.579 --> 00:46:42.559 say, man, if you're from, I think I've seen some 00:46:42.559 --> 00:46:44.639 kids who've gone to NSA or something like that 00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:49.260 who Maybe their family has a really good family 00:46:49.260 --> 00:46:53.400 business, right? So maybe they already have access 00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:55.800 to elite networks and business opportunities 00:46:55.800 --> 00:46:58.300 through family connections, and they're really 00:46:58.300 --> 00:47:00.360 going to NSA for the character formation and 00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:03.940 the substance of the education. Same as these 00:47:03.940 --> 00:47:08.820 other Christian schools I've mentioned. For the 00:47:08.820 --> 00:47:12.239 kid who grows up in a middle class home in a 00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:15.699 rural area, You know going to an ivy league is 00:47:15.699 --> 00:47:18.199 sort of like a short circuit to getting sure 00:47:18.199 --> 00:47:20.199 really good networks Well, I mean we've seen 00:47:20.199 --> 00:47:22.760 that with our our favorite vice president, right? 00:47:23.519 --> 00:47:25.559 Yeah, this is a guy who grew up in Appalachia 00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:29.599 in a poor area not a great situation at home 00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:32.000 and Made his way to Yale is that right in Yale, 00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:36.000 right? Mm -hmm and now he's the vice president 00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:40.849 now he's he's exceptional and I think that You 00:47:40.849 --> 00:47:42.610 know people recognize that along the way, but 00:47:42.610 --> 00:47:45.190 I'm sure he would have had more headwinds had 00:47:45.190 --> 00:47:47.389 he not made his way to an ivy league You know 00:47:47.389 --> 00:47:49.550 he probably wouldn't be where he is at least 00:47:49.550 --> 00:47:52.449 not yet So he got I mean it's how he got his 00:47:52.449 --> 00:47:55.269 professional start Which you know he he came 00:47:55.269 --> 00:47:57.230 out of law school and went into the highest levels 00:47:57.230 --> 00:48:02.480 of the tech world the venture scene There I met 00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:05.440 met a lot of you know funders who would ultimately 00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:07.599 you know help support his political career once 00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:10.099 he once he jumped from politics From business 00:48:10.099 --> 00:48:12.699 into politics and you know that again. That's 00:48:12.699 --> 00:48:14.679 one of those things that you can't really buy 00:48:14.679 --> 00:48:18.079 So that the ivy still have that in there in their 00:48:18.079 --> 00:48:20.440 pocket, so there's there's definitely some advantages 00:48:20.440 --> 00:48:23.940 to those I'm trying to think you know my favorite 00:48:23.940 --> 00:48:26.980 Hillsdale graduate is mr.. Eric Prince But he's 00:48:26.980 --> 00:48:28.860 an interesting example too because he came from 00:48:28.860 --> 00:48:31.840 wealth already his dad was a was a industrial 00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:36.119 kind of genius with I think he made engines first. 00:48:36.199 --> 00:48:40.659 I can't remember now but Did very well in business 00:48:40.659 --> 00:48:43.800 and and his son could have done anything that 00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:46.860 he wanted to and so Hillsdale is where he picked 00:48:46.860 --> 00:48:50.519 to end up going and I don't know what kind of 00:48:50.519 --> 00:48:51.900 networking opportunities he would have got there, 00:48:51.960 --> 00:48:53.639 but here's a guy kind of like what you were saying 00:48:53.639 --> 00:48:55.980 that probably didn't need the networking. He 00:48:55.980 --> 00:48:58.480 probably had a lot of those contacts and opportunities 00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:01.900 already from his family connections. Maybe chose 00:49:01.900 --> 00:49:03.920 Hillsdale because he thought the education would 00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:08.619 be what he wanted rather than I've got to enmesh 00:49:08.619 --> 00:49:10.559 myself with the elite class. I'm kind of already 00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:14.039 in that class. So that's kind of a counter example 00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:16.480 I would put to somebody like JD Vance who came 00:49:16.480 --> 00:49:20.320 from. Nothing more or less and became You know 00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:22.719 got handed this I say handed this like he didn't 00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:24.639 do anything. He did work for it obviously, but 00:49:24.639 --> 00:49:27.579 This helped him this helped him. You can say 00:49:27.579 --> 00:49:30.139 that much at least I think what I think this 00:49:30.139 --> 00:49:31.900 like discussion is good like we're getting on 00:49:31.900 --> 00:49:34.719 the table that it's It's a student by student 00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:37.239 assessment and it's also like it's a cost -benefit 00:49:37.239 --> 00:49:40.739 analysis. We're looking at a lot of factors to 00:49:40.739 --> 00:49:43.019 put my cards on the table like I kind of hope 00:49:43.019 --> 00:49:45.320 that by the time my kids are in college like 00:49:46.650 --> 00:49:50.409 that I'm part of businesses that really help 00:49:50.409 --> 00:49:53.650 obviate the need to kind of short circuit the 00:49:53.650 --> 00:49:55.769 networking by going to an IV. In other words, 00:49:56.730 --> 00:50:00.010 I hope that I can send my kids somewhere that's 00:50:00.010 --> 00:50:03.550 purely about character formation and the content 00:50:03.550 --> 00:50:07.070 of the education. It's not really about what 00:50:07.070 --> 00:50:08.909 place is going to help them get the best job. 00:50:09.929 --> 00:50:14.409 I'm hoping that me or my friend network professional 00:50:14.409 --> 00:50:16.949 opportunities for them that don't require them 00:50:16.949 --> 00:50:19.309 to go through an Ivy League. I think you will 00:50:19.309 --> 00:50:23.550 see more of that. I think more entrepreneurial 00:50:23.550 --> 00:50:27.110 folks are really thinking hard about, rather 00:50:27.110 --> 00:50:29.090 than giving the best years of their life to a 00:50:29.090 --> 00:50:31.510 Fortune 500 or some massive organization, I think 00:50:31.510 --> 00:50:33.530 they're thinking more about how can I build a 00:50:33.530 --> 00:50:37.650 business that I'm going to have more influence 00:50:37.650 --> 00:50:42.050 over, that can be a blessing to my kids or people 00:50:42.050 --> 00:50:45.400 in the community. Rather than you know sure so 00:50:45.400 --> 00:50:48.400 it's almost like you know we're thinking I can't 00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:50.679 make Harvard right, but I could start a business 00:50:50.679 --> 00:50:55.820 that That helps my network have a network. You 00:50:55.820 --> 00:50:58.760 know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, and that's a kingdom 00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:00.840 building Yeah, you could you I mean, and this 00:51:00.840 --> 00:51:02.860 is it I'd say this is kind of one of the things 00:51:02.860 --> 00:51:05.909 that comes along with kingdom building so That 00:51:05.909 --> 00:51:08.030 kind of brings me to shift gears just slightly. 00:51:08.590 --> 00:51:11.329 The concept of noblesse oblige, right? The idea 00:51:11.329 --> 00:51:14.210 that if you are elite or if you have kind of 00:51:14.210 --> 00:51:16.969 risen to a high level of society financially 00:51:16.969 --> 00:51:20.650 in power of some kind, that you have an obligation 00:51:21.109 --> 00:51:23.570 to nobility, that you should use your position 00:51:23.570 --> 00:51:25.570 to, if you're in a position of rule, you should 00:51:25.570 --> 00:51:27.750 rule well. You should rule for the common good 00:51:27.750 --> 00:51:29.469 of society. If you're in a position where you 00:51:29.469 --> 00:51:31.230 have a lot of wealth, you should use that well. 00:51:31.750 --> 00:51:34.150 If you own a company, you should be looking to 00:51:34.150 --> 00:51:37.349 make life good for the people that you know and 00:51:37.349 --> 00:51:39.670 opening doors. I mean, there's a company that 00:51:39.670 --> 00:51:43.039 is planning on coming here. Into this area and 00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:46.059 I have heard it said that their goal is to hire 00:51:46.059 --> 00:51:49.119 workers and pay them enough So that their wives 00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:51.400 can stay home and raise families if that's their 00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:54.559 desire And that's exactly the kind of thing that 00:51:54.559 --> 00:51:56.300 I think of when I think of noblesse oblige if 00:51:56.300 --> 00:51:58.659 they can do this thing They can make people's 00:51:58.659 --> 00:52:01.000 lives better, and that's a core value of this 00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:05.320 company so I think maybe that's kind of what 00:52:05.320 --> 00:52:08.940 you're getting at Yeah, that's a big part of 00:52:08.940 --> 00:52:11.000 it. And that's kind of like a corresponding thing. 00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:14.940 I think you should not talk about elite formation 00:52:14.940 --> 00:52:18.719 without talking about the obligations that come 00:52:18.719 --> 00:52:21.900 along with elites. And I think that's probably 00:52:21.900 --> 00:52:25.139 part of the problem with modern economy and modern 00:52:25.139 --> 00:52:29.360 America is that we have a pretty selfish elite 00:52:29.360 --> 00:52:33.440 class that does not have accountability to any 00:52:33.440 --> 00:52:37.690 particular Community like maybe they're like 00:52:37.690 --> 00:52:40.210 our elite class thinks of themselves as like 00:52:40.210 --> 00:52:43.949 citizens of the globe Which creates diffuse responsibility? 00:52:43.949 --> 00:52:45.969 I mean, they're very focused on problems like 00:52:45.969 --> 00:52:49.610 climate change To theoretical collective action 00:52:49.610 --> 00:52:54.460 problem, you know very out there But they don't 00:52:54.460 --> 00:52:57.139 really have a lot of accountability to like, 00:52:57.199 --> 00:52:59.079 you know, some particular group of people that 00:52:59.079 --> 00:53:01.659 requires them to do like hard things and you 00:53:01.659 --> 00:53:03.800 know, they don't have to generally they can kind 00:53:03.800 --> 00:53:07.199 of insulate themselves from the effects that 00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:10.860 their policies have on, you know, on their neighbors 00:53:10.860 --> 00:53:13.099 on the other side of town. Sure. Yeah. So it 00:53:13.099 --> 00:53:14.559 makes me think like if we could have a bunch 00:53:14.559 --> 00:53:16.599 of elites that are members of local churches, 00:53:17.699 --> 00:53:19.619 that that would be a great, you know, that's 00:53:19.619 --> 00:53:21.659 a great check because you've got, you know, What 00:53:21.659 --> 00:53:24.719 are you doing with your power? Not that the church 00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:26.420 necessarily needs to see your accounting books, 00:53:26.559 --> 00:53:30.739 but like, you know, there's an admonition, an 00:53:30.739 --> 00:53:34.179 encouragement to, you know, do this for the kingdom, 00:53:34.300 --> 00:53:37.059 you know, to borrow Jason's term. Like, do this 00:53:37.059 --> 00:53:41.980 for the kingdom and the children of God and bless 00:53:41.980 --> 00:53:44.400 them in that way. There's more of an accountability 00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:49.559 to the church. It makes it more familial. It's 00:53:49.559 --> 00:53:51.980 a relationship that has more To use the same 00:53:51.980 --> 00:53:55.159 word again, just accountability. I mean, if you're 00:53:55.159 --> 00:53:59.480 friends with the same group and you're all striving 00:53:59.480 --> 00:54:02.059 for the same purpose, you're going to get called 00:54:02.059 --> 00:54:06.880 out more if you're breaking the morals or the 00:54:06.880 --> 00:54:10.559 ways of business, the mode of operation. You're 00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:13.280 going to get called out by your brother a whole 00:54:13.280 --> 00:54:15.880 lot more quickly than you would by somebody who's 00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:18.969 trying to impress you. Yeah, sure. which elites 00:54:18.969 --> 00:54:21.670 are surrounded by sycophants. That's kind of 00:54:21.670 --> 00:54:25.949 one of the catches of it. Yeah, accountability, 00:54:26.650 --> 00:54:29.969 it does require shared standards, for one thing. 00:54:30.429 --> 00:54:33.389 So that's part of why we don't get as much accountability 00:54:33.389 --> 00:54:37.389 on our lease is because we have this kind of 00:54:37.389 --> 00:54:40.429 multicultural thing where we don't share a lot 00:54:40.429 --> 00:54:42.969 of fundamental social values. We have different 00:54:42.969 --> 00:54:49.000 values. You know, this is where like the school 00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:53.099 can perform a function too, right? Because we 00:54:53.099 --> 00:54:55.440 all happen to attend the same church here, right? 00:54:55.460 --> 00:54:59.139 Like the us three, but you know, like, you know, 00:54:59.179 --> 00:55:01.820 this school has people from, I don't know how 00:55:01.820 --> 00:55:04.059 many, but many different churches who come here. 00:55:04.239 --> 00:55:06.639 And there's a kind of community around this school, 00:55:06.639 --> 00:55:10.440 right? And then where there's also a kind of, 00:55:10.440 --> 00:55:13.500 that's its own kind of accountability. And like 00:55:13.500 --> 00:55:15.639 this school is creating a bit of a counterculture. 00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:18.800 So it's aggregating up from like a church level 00:55:18.800 --> 00:55:23.880 to like a culture that is common across different 00:55:23.880 --> 00:55:26.079 churches. Then you aggregate even up from that, 00:55:26.079 --> 00:55:28.619 and you've got like a national classical Christian 00:55:28.619 --> 00:55:30.679 education movement. And that's like a whole other 00:55:30.679 --> 00:55:34.000 level of aggregation. But that's kind of one 00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:37.420 of the, I guess, side benefits or utilitarian 00:55:37.420 --> 00:55:39.860 functions I like about classical Christian education 00:55:39.860 --> 00:55:43.719 is it's like it's creating a real, like a thick, 00:55:44.099 --> 00:55:47.329 substantive counterculture. where kids are gonna 00:55:47.329 --> 00:55:51.230 have common stories, narratives, their moral 00:55:51.230 --> 00:55:53.730 imagination is being shaped in a common way. 00:55:54.690 --> 00:55:56.570 And they're gonna have like a shared language 00:55:56.570 --> 00:55:58.070 and they're gonna have shared values and that's 00:55:58.070 --> 00:56:01.230 gonna make accountability better and more natural 00:56:01.230 --> 00:56:03.230 too. Sure, yeah, one of the interesting things 00:56:03.230 --> 00:56:05.690 we covered in a recent faculty meeting actually 00:56:05.690 --> 00:56:09.630 was the ACCS did a survey. And it was on, there 00:56:09.630 --> 00:56:11.550 was some academic questions on there about like 00:56:11.550 --> 00:56:13.250 how students are doing academically, but a lot 00:56:13.250 --> 00:56:17.929 of them were more like life questions, like how 00:56:17.929 --> 00:56:21.750 likely are you to have a homosexual friend? How 00:56:21.750 --> 00:56:25.349 likely are you to tell that person that you don't 00:56:25.349 --> 00:56:27.809 approve of that, like that you think that that's 00:56:27.809 --> 00:56:29.829 a sinful thing? How likely are you to be in church 00:56:29.829 --> 00:56:32.389 and to stay in church? Or do you do that, you 00:56:32.389 --> 00:56:35.769 know? So they ask graduates and they ask current 00:56:35.769 --> 00:56:37.920 students. And there was a whole bunch of these 00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:39.420 questions. I think you can probably find this 00:56:39.420 --> 00:56:42.400 on the ACCS website, which is just classicalchristian 00:56:42.400 --> 00:56:44.659 .org. And you can probably poke around and find 00:56:44.659 --> 00:56:46.400 it. But they were very reluctant to initially 00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:49.480 release the survey. And the fear was that people 00:56:49.480 --> 00:56:51.219 were like, oh, no, it must have not been very 00:56:51.219 --> 00:56:53.900 good. But they eventually put it out with the 00:56:53.900 --> 00:56:55.780 caveat that, like, we were worried about releasing 00:56:55.780 --> 00:56:57.800 this because our numbers look fake. They look 00:56:57.800 --> 00:57:01.380 too good. And there were some places where they 00:57:01.380 --> 00:57:04.340 were in kind of similar numbers with public schools 00:57:04.340 --> 00:57:07.260 and home schools. I think they compared college 00:57:07.260 --> 00:57:11.099 prep schools, evangelical schools, Catholic schools, 00:57:11.420 --> 00:57:13.400 public schools, and home schools, and then ACCS 00:57:13.400 --> 00:57:16.800 specifically, classical schools. And many, many 00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:20.000 categories, they were more than one standard 00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:23.059 deviation above everyone else in several things, 00:57:23.079 --> 00:57:25.639 or below, if that's the case. It just made it 00:57:25.639 --> 00:57:27.480 look very good. And it's the kind of things you're 00:57:27.480 --> 00:57:32.360 talking about, like... its world outlook on family, 00:57:32.639 --> 00:57:36.619 on church, on education itself, on your future 00:57:36.619 --> 00:57:39.360 plans, on like all these kinds of, it's very 00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:42.940 all encompassing. And so it was a very encouraging 00:57:42.940 --> 00:57:45.719 thing to look at for us because we really value 00:57:45.719 --> 00:57:48.800 our program and we think that it's the best one. 00:57:49.139 --> 00:57:51.840 But it's always nice to see data to back up that 00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:54.659 a lot of what we want to see happen, which is 00:57:54.659 --> 00:57:58.469 primarily moral formation. And academic prep 00:57:58.469 --> 00:58:03.269 is an excellent side benefit of that. That is 00:58:03.269 --> 00:58:05.989 having some success. And this is kind of getting 00:58:05.989 --> 00:58:09.369 towards what you were talking about, like the 00:58:09.369 --> 00:58:11.949 families, the children of conservative Christian 00:58:11.949 --> 00:58:14.190 households are gonna become high performers. 00:58:14.909 --> 00:58:16.969 And it isn't necessarily just because they get 00:58:16.969 --> 00:58:20.210 high ACT scores, although many do. It is because 00:58:20.210 --> 00:58:25.599 they're just prepared for life. They have a good 00:58:25.599 --> 00:58:30.940 outlook. Their fidelity to their upbringing is 00:58:30.940 --> 00:58:33.199 strong. And I'm sure there's some horror stories 00:58:33.199 --> 00:58:35.260 where there's anecdotes where people didn't and 00:58:35.260 --> 00:58:39.400 things of that sort, but by and large, it's demonstrating 00:58:39.400 --> 00:58:41.840 itself to be a successful project. And even in 00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:43.920 a very simple way, there's all the positive stuff, 00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:46.420 but also there's just harm prevention. Sure, 00:58:46.739 --> 00:58:50.179 yeah. In modern society, there's a lot of... 00:58:51.260 --> 00:58:53.659 traumatic stuff that kids get exposed to that 00:58:53.659 --> 00:58:56.579 they shouldn't be exposed to. And that, you know, 00:58:56.659 --> 00:58:59.139 so just even like at a very simple baseline level. 00:59:00.139 --> 00:59:03.139 On this point, Scott Jenner wrote an article 00:59:03.139 --> 00:59:07.639 on that data. Scott Jenner, he's a professor 00:59:07.639 --> 00:59:11.280 at Boise State and now the leads the Simon Center 00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:14.559 at the Heritage Foundation as well. Great, great 00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:18.239 guy. But yeah, he wrote an article. I forget 00:59:18.239 --> 00:59:21.000 the title, but it was for American reformer digesting 00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:24.480 this data and you know, the point of it there 00:59:24.480 --> 00:59:29.739 was like There have been attempts over the years 00:59:29.739 --> 00:59:34.199 to demoralize Proponents of Christian education. 00:59:34.480 --> 00:59:37.440 So like Christian education is hard. It's a sacrifice 00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:40.260 the movement I guess it started in the 70s really 00:59:40.260 --> 00:59:42.960 took off in the 90s a lot of people in California 00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:45.329 attended to spring up in places where the public 00:59:45.329 --> 00:59:47.510 schools were worst. And parents were like, hey, 00:59:47.710 --> 00:59:50.829 we got to opt out. We got to find a way to get 00:59:50.829 --> 00:59:54.510 our kids a better education. And even as that 00:59:54.510 --> 00:59:57.090 movement was gaining momentum, there's been a 00:59:57.090 --> 01:00:03.590 lot of high visibility mainstream press attacks 01:00:03.590 --> 01:00:07.710 on Christian education. Or whenever if there's 01:00:07.710 --> 01:00:09.849 somebody who's in the faith and then they leave 01:00:09.849 --> 01:00:13.409 the faith, that gets spotlighted a lot to kind 01:00:13.409 --> 01:00:16.250 of, frankly, I think it's just an attempt to 01:00:16.250 --> 01:00:18.829 demoralize Christians and say, hey, the sacrifices 01:00:18.829 --> 01:00:21.690 that you're making, budgeting to pay for the 01:00:21.690 --> 01:00:23.690 private Christian school doesn't make a difference. 01:00:24.409 --> 01:00:27.070 But it's being attacked precisely because it 01:00:27.070 --> 01:00:29.610 really matters and it really is making a difference. 01:00:30.130 --> 01:00:33.070 And so I love that kind of data because we're 01:00:33.070 --> 01:00:35.929 often assaulted with random anecdotes of the 01:00:35.929 --> 01:00:38.090 one kid who, oh, they went through Christian 01:00:38.090 --> 01:00:40.170 schools all the way through and how they turned 01:00:40.170 --> 01:00:43.539 out. as if that invalidates the approach, but 01:00:43.539 --> 01:00:47.340 the data is very clear. Classical, or really 01:00:47.340 --> 01:00:49.619 any Christian education, but classical fares 01:00:49.619 --> 01:00:54.460 very well. It's generally going to, in most cases, 01:00:54.579 --> 01:00:58.440 it's going to do well for your kids. Yeah. Being 01:00:58.440 --> 01:01:02.079 a product of the public schools and now being 01:01:02.079 --> 01:01:05.159 a part of the classical Christian education system, 01:01:05.539 --> 01:01:09.599 I see such a distinct difference and such benefit. 01:01:09.849 --> 01:01:12.769 We talked about we're going to do another show 01:01:12.769 --> 01:01:16.789 on that. But I think that it's just undeniable 01:01:16.789 --> 01:01:19.690 when you get into the meat and potatoes of it, 01:01:20.369 --> 01:01:23.650 how much benefit it allows the kids coming up 01:01:23.650 --> 01:01:29.969 in it. I would argue that it gives Ivy League 01:01:29.969 --> 01:01:34.369 -esque benefit to kids coming out of the classical 01:01:34.369 --> 01:01:38.349 Christian schools. It prepares them so much. 01:01:38.480 --> 01:01:42.539 more vibrantly than public education, I think, 01:01:42.780 --> 01:01:45.460 even can. I think their hands are tied at some 01:01:45.460 --> 01:01:51.159 points. They're exposed to things, to a methodology 01:01:51.159 --> 01:01:55.659 of teaching that is, in my opinion, just far 01:01:55.659 --> 01:02:01.480 superior. So I'm encouraged by all this. I'm 01:02:01.480 --> 01:02:04.539 encouraged by the things we've been talking about. 01:02:04.639 --> 01:02:06.920 who our kids are going to be beholden to? Are 01:02:06.920 --> 01:02:09.219 our kids going to be beholden to fortune and 01:02:09.219 --> 01:02:11.360 fame? Is that what they're going to desire? Are 01:02:11.360 --> 01:02:13.780 they going to desire things of the kingdom? And 01:02:13.780 --> 01:02:16.400 I think if they come up through the classical 01:02:16.400 --> 01:02:19.900 Christian schools, their eyes and their minds 01:02:19.900 --> 01:02:23.539 are set on things of the kingdom. And that's 01:02:23.539 --> 01:02:26.900 where the biggest difference is. They're able 01:02:26.900 --> 01:02:31.139 to see the difference where kids coming through 01:02:31.139 --> 01:02:36.219 public schools are conditioned to worldly standards. 01:02:36.619 --> 01:02:39.099 So that's what they're beholden to, naturally. 01:02:39.260 --> 01:02:43.719 That's what their reflexes react to, where our 01:02:43.719 --> 01:02:46.539 kids are able to see the difference. They're 01:02:46.539 --> 01:02:50.500 able to speak both languages and to traverse 01:02:50.500 --> 01:02:54.699 both. I think that's a big difference. What do 01:02:54.699 --> 01:02:57.119 you think about that? Well, I think this reminds 01:02:57.119 --> 01:03:00.650 me again of the... the talk from Clifford Humphrey 01:03:00.650 --> 01:03:03.389 and the other guys, Colin Redemer and Ryan Hamill 01:03:03.389 --> 01:03:05.309 and Josh Gibbs, I think was the other one in 01:03:05.309 --> 01:03:10.150 that. And their overall topic was all education 01:03:10.150 --> 01:03:13.829 is political. And so it was an interesting, and 01:03:13.829 --> 01:03:16.309 I think it was an intentionally, not inflammatory 01:03:16.309 --> 01:03:17.710 is too broad a word, but they knew it was gonna 01:03:17.710 --> 01:03:21.099 be a controversial thing to say. when they got 01:03:21.099 --> 01:03:23.539 into it and they defined political, what they 01:03:23.539 --> 01:03:26.559 meant by that was that all education is aimed 01:03:26.559 --> 01:03:29.519 at teaching people how to order society for the 01:03:29.519 --> 01:03:33.659 good life, which is an Aristotelian kind of definition 01:03:33.659 --> 01:03:38.219 of that. And so when you have classical education, 01:03:38.559 --> 01:03:40.840 what you're doing is you're forming the kids 01:03:40.840 --> 01:03:43.119 and shaping them and guiding them in such a way 01:03:43.119 --> 01:03:44.980 that their understanding of what the good life 01:03:44.980 --> 01:03:49.099 is, is not I want to be a twitch streamer or 01:03:49.099 --> 01:03:51.579 I want to get rich on on being a you know, whatever 01:03:51.579 --> 01:03:56.380 youtuber like they they They don't see necessarily 01:03:56.380 --> 01:03:59.340 fame and fortune as the good life I'm sure that 01:03:59.340 --> 01:04:00.960 they're tempted by that the same as everyone 01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:04.000 else, but they can hopefully look at the world 01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:06.699 and say I hope to have a family I hope to put 01:04:06.699 --> 01:04:08.960 food on the table. They can see past it. Yeah. 01:04:09.219 --> 01:04:11.519 They recognize that there's something more and 01:04:11.519 --> 01:04:13.880 better and fundamental. But what you're trying 01:04:13.880 --> 01:04:15.539 to get at, like really down at the core there 01:04:15.539 --> 01:04:18.619 is like, this is what the good life is. And public 01:04:18.619 --> 01:04:20.860 schools are not equipped to even tell them that. 01:04:20.880 --> 01:04:24.400 So the kids are just adrift. And the way that 01:04:24.400 --> 01:04:25.800 they're getting that, because everybody wants 01:04:25.800 --> 01:04:27.900 to know the answer to that question, where they're 01:04:27.900 --> 01:04:31.480 getting it is on TikTok. And what do their friends 01:04:31.480 --> 01:04:35.510 say? And it seems like having a nice car is fun. 01:04:35.570 --> 01:04:38.190 So I should get money for that. I should do this 01:04:38.190 --> 01:04:39.949 thing and that thing. And they're just kind of 01:04:39.949 --> 01:04:42.110 adrift. And with classical, you're really anchored. 01:04:42.449 --> 01:04:45.989 And you've got a way to say, look, our people, 01:04:46.210 --> 01:04:48.829 Christians and American Christians, and in our 01:04:48.829 --> 01:04:51.570 case, Tennessee Christians, have said the good 01:04:51.570 --> 01:04:54.889 life looks like this. Now let's discuss that 01:04:54.889 --> 01:04:57.489 and let's evaluate it. So they've got a context 01:04:57.489 --> 01:05:00.329 for knowing what has made my people happy in 01:05:00.329 --> 01:05:04.039 the past. You teach them that past, correct me 01:05:04.039 --> 01:05:09.420 too. Yeah, and Jason, one other thought that 01:05:09.420 --> 01:05:13.960 your comment sparked. I think that in the Christian 01:05:13.960 --> 01:05:16.559 community, to criticize ourselves a little bit, 01:05:17.239 --> 01:05:21.360 at some times in the past, we have poo -pooed 01:05:21.360 --> 01:05:24.179 ambition. You said classical schools are going 01:05:24.179 --> 01:05:27.820 to create kids who want to build the kingdom. 01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:32.500 They're motivated by that. you're touching on 01:05:32.500 --> 01:05:40.199 godly ambition. I think that oftentimes conservative 01:05:40.199 --> 01:05:43.460 evangelicals have failed to have a category for 01:05:43.460 --> 01:05:50.400 what godly ambition looks like. They don't understand 01:05:50.400 --> 01:05:53.199 that it means the correct ordering of all of 01:05:53.199 --> 01:05:55.519 these things, like have a family, provide for 01:05:55.519 --> 01:05:59.349 your family, have a church community. um neighbors 01:05:59.349 --> 01:06:02.750 you know business school that you're that you're 01:06:02.750 --> 01:06:04.909 providing for like it should it's a good ambition 01:06:04.909 --> 01:06:07.110 to say i want to provide for all of those things 01:06:07.110 --> 01:06:09.630 but it's all of course it's like all subject 01:06:09.630 --> 01:06:12.809 to these things that like i mean ultimately like 01:06:12.809 --> 01:06:15.170 god has told us are part of the good life this 01:06:15.170 --> 01:06:17.769 is how you like it's how he wants us to live 01:06:17.769 --> 01:06:20.769 as creatures in this world and when we follow 01:06:20.769 --> 01:06:23.989 like his ways we're happier and healthier and 01:06:23.989 --> 01:06:27.619 it blesses you know everybody around us and to 01:06:27.619 --> 01:06:33.539 have an ambition for that. I think that at times, 01:06:33.880 --> 01:06:39.760 evangelicals have been prone to jump purely to 01:06:39.760 --> 01:06:42.500 the spiritual aspects. It's just about evangelism. 01:06:42.780 --> 01:06:44.980 And they forget that all of those other things 01:06:44.980 --> 01:06:47.480 along the way are some of the most effective 01:06:47.480 --> 01:06:51.139 evangelistic tools. Your kids are your first 01:06:51.139 --> 01:06:54.300 mission field. Before you go overseas or do anything 01:06:54.300 --> 01:06:57.860 else, You know like evangelism starts in in your 01:06:57.860 --> 01:07:00.159 own house and like how you disciple and raise 01:07:00.159 --> 01:07:02.559 your kids And then you know, and then of course 01:07:02.559 --> 01:07:04.260 it spills out to your neighbor and it spills 01:07:04.260 --> 01:07:05.960 out You know to the broader community from there 01:07:05.960 --> 01:07:08.280 to the ends of the world, but you got to have 01:07:08.280 --> 01:07:11.679 everything in the right, you know order and you 01:07:11.679 --> 01:07:14.280 got to you got to understand what's the good 01:07:14.280 --> 01:07:17.019 life look like that we need to have an ambition 01:07:17.019 --> 01:07:20.900 for like Securing that for making sure that we're 01:07:20.900 --> 01:07:24.110 gonna provide that for the next generation In 01:07:24.110 --> 01:07:25.989 some cases, that means somebody is going to have 01:07:25.989 --> 01:07:29.050 to go make a bunch of money, right? Or find themselves 01:07:29.050 --> 01:07:31.650 in a position of power. Many times it will mean 01:07:31.650 --> 01:07:34.250 that. And it should not be just for its own sake. 01:07:34.269 --> 01:07:36.869 It should be for what you're talking about. An 01:07:36.869 --> 01:07:39.650 oversimplification that I recently learned is 01:07:39.650 --> 01:07:44.190 there are two kingdoms. One kingdom is creative 01:07:44.190 --> 01:07:48.550 and constructive. The other kingdom is destructive. 01:07:50.309 --> 01:07:52.760 That's an oversimplification, of course. But 01:07:52.760 --> 01:07:56.320 that's one way to parse yourself for the viewpoint 01:07:56.320 --> 01:07:59.900 of distinguishing the different directives and 01:07:59.900 --> 01:08:04.380 the kingdoms. The outlook that our kids will 01:08:04.380 --> 01:08:08.820 have if they look towards God's kingdom and realize 01:08:08.820 --> 01:08:12.420 that that is a constructive and ordered, just 01:08:12.420 --> 01:08:16.680 a way of life. So, yeah. That's like, it reminds 01:08:16.680 --> 01:08:19.899 me of Augustine, right? And the two cities, two 01:08:19.899 --> 01:08:21.970 kingdoms. they're defined by their different 01:08:21.970 --> 01:08:26.970 loves. And the earthly kingdom is defined by 01:08:26.970 --> 01:08:30.649 disordered loves. It elevates certain things 01:08:30.649 --> 01:08:34.930 over others. It elevates power, money, or sex, 01:08:35.010 --> 01:08:39.789 or whatever, for their own sake. Whereas the 01:08:39.789 --> 01:08:42.090 Christian way of life puts those things in the 01:08:42.090 --> 01:08:44.489 proper order. They're serving the right ends. 01:08:45.840 --> 01:08:48.600 And you know the I mean really the definition 01:08:48.600 --> 01:08:52.720 of like sin. I mean in some ways is like Applying 01:08:52.720 --> 01:08:56.100 the wrong order to things like elevating certain 01:08:56.100 --> 01:08:59.159 created things over the creator or over the you 01:08:59.159 --> 01:09:01.640 know over the way in which the creator designed 01:09:01.640 --> 01:09:06.819 for them to be used like, you know, so Yeah, 01:09:07.000 --> 01:09:09.979 I mean the diss the disorder is really like the 01:09:09.979 --> 01:09:12.880 chief I mean and yeah, I guess to put a to put 01:09:12.880 --> 01:09:16.960 it really bluntly like Kids coming out of a lot 01:09:16.960 --> 01:09:20.119 of public education aren't getting Formed into 01:09:20.119 --> 01:09:22.920 the right. They're not being taught how to order 01:09:22.920 --> 01:09:26.079 Like their loves to order, you know to orient 01:09:26.079 --> 01:09:28.300 their ambition toward the right things Well, 01:09:28.300 --> 01:09:31.140 they're being taught that disorder is good in 01:09:31.140 --> 01:09:34.560 a lot of cases. Yeah that you know the things 01:09:34.560 --> 01:09:39.560 that that we value ordered is Is to be looked 01:09:39.560 --> 01:09:42.949 down on and the way we ordered it You know, the 01:09:42.949 --> 01:09:45.510 way God orders it, I should say, is looked down 01:09:45.510 --> 01:09:51.229 on. So their version of order is actually disorder. 01:09:52.970 --> 01:09:57.250 Yep. Well, do we need to talk about the gloves 01:09:57.250 --> 01:09:59.789 again? We can. Have you been able to use your 01:09:59.789 --> 01:10:01.970 gloves? I have actually used them quite a bit. 01:10:02.630 --> 01:10:04.250 A lot of firewood handling. We have a sponsor. 01:10:04.890 --> 01:10:07.529 Oh, really? Yes. You should get a pair of these 01:10:07.529 --> 01:10:11.939 gloves. This is Bare Knuckles. Yeah, like the 01:10:11.939 --> 01:10:14.979 animal and they make all kinds of gloves work 01:10:14.979 --> 01:10:18.140 gloves that I think they started with rodeo gloves 01:10:18.140 --> 01:10:20.819 and then they they kind of expanded a lot, you 01:10:20.819 --> 01:10:23.220 know kind of heavy duty like lineman repair gloves 01:10:23.220 --> 01:10:26.699 and just the kind that they sent us some and 01:10:26.699 --> 01:10:30.039 I've been wearing this pair of buffalo hide gloves 01:10:30.039 --> 01:10:32.579 work gloves and I don't wear any others anymore 01:10:32.579 --> 01:10:36.380 basically so I had a lot of firewood over the 01:10:36.380 --> 01:10:38.819 break because we had we had some some snow and 01:10:38.819 --> 01:10:41.300 ice around here and I always look for those when 01:10:41.300 --> 01:10:43.340 I went out there to get the firewood and bring 01:10:43.340 --> 01:10:45.659 it in. It was nice. Yeah, but they continue to 01:10:45.659 --> 01:10:48.439 impress me. Just the quality and everything. 01:10:49.079 --> 01:10:53.119 And if you enter Issachar in your checkout, then 01:10:53.119 --> 01:10:56.380 you get 15 % off. Yeah, support these good people 01:10:56.380 --> 01:10:59.560 and support the show that way. So Josh, we thank 01:10:59.560 --> 01:11:01.880 you for coming on. This has been a good time 01:11:01.880 --> 01:11:06.000 and hopefully enlightening and opening some people's 01:11:06.000 --> 01:11:08.369 minds to, you know... You know, re -evaluate 01:11:08.369 --> 01:11:10.090 the goals that you have for your kids and really 01:11:10.090 --> 01:11:13.649 think big in some cases. And be thinking about 01:11:13.649 --> 01:11:15.109 that for yourself, too. I mean, it may be too 01:11:15.109 --> 01:11:16.590 late for an adult to think about going to Harvard, 01:11:16.689 --> 01:11:20.710 but there's other ways to strive for excellence 01:11:20.710 --> 01:11:23.350 and for that to be recognized and to order your 01:11:23.350 --> 01:11:26.409 loves rightly. Use that to the benefit of the 01:11:26.409 --> 01:11:28.989 furtherance of the kingdom of heaven. Thanks, 01:11:29.170 --> 01:11:31.850 Josh, for being with us. Thank you, gentlemen. 01:11:35.109 --> 01:11:37.449 Well, that wraps up another episode of the Men 01:11:37.449 --> 01:11:41.449 of Issachar Podcast. If you have any topics you'd 01:11:41.449 --> 01:11:44.789 like to see us cover or any questions, please 01:11:44.789 --> 01:11:47.869 shoot us an email at IssacharPodcast at gmail 01:11:47.869 --> 01:11:50.109 .com and we'll get back to you as soon as we 01:11:50.109 --> 01:11:56.189 can. Also, visit ByBearKnuckles .com and check 01:11:56.189 --> 01:11:59.789 out all their selection for gloves. They continue 01:11:59.789 --> 01:12:03.220 to impress us and we'll provide you a link. in 01:12:03.220 --> 01:12:05.720 the description so you can follow that and it 01:12:05.720 --> 01:12:07.659 will enter in all the pertinent information. 01:12:07.800 --> 01:12:12.760 But if not, just enter in Issachar in the checkout 01:12:12.760 --> 01:12:19.020 and you'll get 15 % off. We appreciate you. Thanks 01:12:19.020 --> 01:12:21.699 for listening and we'll see you again very soon.