WEBVTT 00:00:01.130 --> 00:00:03.750 Welcome to the Men of Issachar podcast. This 00:00:03.750 --> 00:00:06.950 is episode number five. We have an exciting and 00:00:06.950 --> 00:00:09.470 I think fruitful conversation with Mr. Joe Davis. 00:00:10.169 --> 00:00:12.029 It brings a lot of knowledge and passion to the 00:00:12.029 --> 00:00:14.550 table and presents an idea about music that if 00:00:14.550 --> 00:00:16.629 you stick around until the end you might learn 00:00:16.629 --> 00:00:18.969 from a perspective that you may not have considered 00:00:18.969 --> 00:00:22.449 to this point in your life. Such a fun conversation 00:00:22.449 --> 00:00:24.670 with someone who obviously cares about God's 00:00:24.670 --> 00:00:27.589 art and beauty in literature and in music as 00:00:27.589 --> 00:00:31.539 well as other areas of course. So, join us, Jeff 00:00:31.539 --> 00:00:34.619 Wright, Terry Gant, Joe Davis, and myself, Jason 00:00:34.619 --> 00:00:43.539 Gall, as we strive to be Men of Issachar. Welcome, 00:00:43.619 --> 00:00:46.420 everyone, to the Men of Issachar podcast. We're 00:00:46.420 --> 00:00:48.859 going to be talking with Mr. Joe Davis today, 00:00:48.859 --> 00:00:52.240 and we're going to be discussing music and what 00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:55.939 that means to a believer. So, let's take it away. 00:00:56.699 --> 00:01:00.280 Well, thanks for having me on, for the listener 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:04.939 who doesn't know me. My name is Joe, and I'm 00:01:04.939 --> 00:01:08.019 involved with the group of men here in a couple 00:01:08.019 --> 00:01:10.400 of different ways. I'm a member of Midway Baptist, 00:01:10.859 --> 00:01:13.099 and I teach at Hickory Classical Christian School. 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:19.219 And I'm going to talk about music in a way that 00:01:19.219 --> 00:01:24.879 I've come to appreciate its qualities. Well the 00:01:24.879 --> 00:01:27.040 way that's maybe a little different than then 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:28.879 you're maybe used to hearing it talked about 00:01:28.879 --> 00:01:30.640 it's gonna get a little mystic it's gonna get 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:32.140 a little metaphysical but hang with us because 00:01:32.140 --> 00:01:35.079 I think it's gonna be good stuff and Whether 00:01:35.079 --> 00:01:38.099 you're convinced or not about My particular position. 00:01:38.099 --> 00:01:40.640 I hope that you have an opportunity to meditate 00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:42.739 on music and how important is that's kind of 00:01:42.739 --> 00:01:46.299 the goal So gentlemen, do you mind if I start 00:01:46.299 --> 00:01:49.000 with a quotation here and to kind of set us up? 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:52.170 No, do we need a do we need a? Preface the quotation 00:01:52.170 --> 00:01:53.590 or you're going to, you're going to lay it on 00:01:53.590 --> 00:01:55.650 us. Well, let's, let's give the quotation and 00:01:55.650 --> 00:01:58.209 then I'll jump to the thesis. All right. So, 00:01:58.370 --> 00:02:02.170 uh, this is a excerpt from, uh, the return of 00:02:02.170 --> 00:02:06.450 the King, which is the third, um, portion of 00:02:06.450 --> 00:02:09.650 Tolkien's Magnus Opus, the Lord of the Rings, 00:02:09.689 --> 00:02:14.099 um, his great work. And the scene, let me give 00:02:14.099 --> 00:02:17.280 you a little setup for the scene here, is if 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:18.740 you're familiar with the films, the Lord of the 00:02:18.740 --> 00:02:20.599 Rings films, we're coming up to where the Riders 00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:24.280 of Rohan have arrived at the Siege of Gondor, 00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:27.199 and sort of they're there to eucatastrophically 00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:30.280 turn the tide. It's one of the most incredible 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:32.939 cinematic scenes. It's still widely lauded as 00:02:32.939 --> 00:02:37.060 being a piece of cinematic masterpiece. But the 00:02:37.060 --> 00:02:39.639 book scene is a little different. and hopefully 00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:41.900 will give us some insight into music and what 00:02:41.900 --> 00:02:44.419 we're going to be talking about today with music. 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:47.259 So, Theoden, who is the king of the Rohirrim 00:02:47.259 --> 00:02:51.060 riders, has arrived and I will be picking up 00:02:51.060 --> 00:02:54.919 the text here with Mary's thoughts. Mary is a 00:02:54.919 --> 00:02:57.280 hobbit who's riding with the king and he's our 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:00.639 POV character. He's the one who's kind of observing 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:04.180 and letting us know what's going on. So, after 00:03:04.180 --> 00:03:07.360 a while, the king led his men away somewhat eastward. 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:09.680 to come between the fires of the siege and the 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:13.000 outer fields. Still they were unchallenged, and 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:16.439 still Theoden gave no signal. At last he halted 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:19.599 once again. The city was now nearer. The smell 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:21.699 of burning was in the air, and the very shadow 00:03:21.699 --> 00:03:25.460 of death. The horses were uneasy. But the king 00:03:25.460 --> 00:03:28.680 sat upon snowmane, motionless, gazing upon the 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:31.379 agony of Minas Tirith, as if stricken suddenly 00:03:31.379 --> 00:03:35.159 by anguish or by dread. He seemed to shrink down, 00:03:35.479 --> 00:03:38.789 cowed by age. Mary himself felt as if a great 00:03:38.789 --> 00:03:41.210 weight of horror and doubt had settled on him. 00:03:41.430 --> 00:03:44.569 His heart beat slowly. Time seemed poised in 00:03:44.569 --> 00:03:47.490 uncertainty. They were too late. Too late was 00:03:47.490 --> 00:03:50.550 worse than never. Perhaps Theoden would quail, 00:03:50.930 --> 00:03:54.409 bow his old head, turn, slink away to hide in 00:03:54.409 --> 00:03:57.710 the hills. Then suddenly Mary felt it at last, 00:03:57.870 --> 00:04:01.669 beyond doubt. A change. Wind was in his face. 00:04:02.129 --> 00:04:05.509 Light was glimmering. Far, far away in the south 00:04:05.509 --> 00:04:08.250 the clouds could be dimly seen as remote gray 00:04:08.250 --> 00:04:11.990 shapes rolling up, drifting. Mourning lay beyond 00:04:11.990 --> 00:04:14.909 them. But at that same moment there was a flash 00:04:14.909 --> 00:04:16.829 as if lightning had sprung from the earth beneath 00:04:16.829 --> 00:04:19.730 the city. For a searing second it stood dazzling 00:04:19.730 --> 00:04:22.569 far off in black and white, its topmost tower 00:04:22.569 --> 00:04:25.250 like a glittering needle. And then as the darkness 00:04:25.250 --> 00:04:27.829 closed again there came rolling over the fields 00:04:27.829 --> 00:04:31.889 a great boom. At that sound the bent shape of 00:04:31.889 --> 00:04:35.470 the king sprang suddenly erect. Tall and proud 00:04:35.470 --> 00:04:38.329 he seemed again, and rising in his stirrups he 00:04:38.329 --> 00:04:41.209 cried in a loud voice, more clear than any there 00:04:41.209 --> 00:04:44.889 had ever heard a mortal man achieve before. Arise, 00:04:45.149 --> 00:04:48.970 arise, riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake, fire 00:04:48.970 --> 00:04:52.529 and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken, shield 00:04:52.529 --> 00:04:56.829 be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the 00:04:56.829 --> 00:05:02.860 sun rises! Ride now! Ride now, ride to Gondor. 00:05:03.300 --> 00:05:05.620 With that he seized a great horn from Guthloff, 00:05:05.720 --> 00:05:08.300 his banner bearer, and he blew such a blast upon 00:05:08.300 --> 00:05:11.259 it that it burst asunder. And straight away all 00:05:11.259 --> 00:05:13.699 the horns and the hosts were lifted up in music, 00:05:14.180 --> 00:05:16.160 and the blowing of the horns of Rohan in that 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:19.060 hour was like a storm upon the plain and a thunder 00:05:19.060 --> 00:05:24.980 in the mountains. Ride now, ride now, ride to 00:05:24.980 --> 00:05:28.259 Gondor. Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and 00:05:28.259 --> 00:05:31.079 the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner 00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:33.779 blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of 00:05:33.779 --> 00:05:36.899 green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered 00:05:36.899 --> 00:05:39.259 the knights of his house, but he was ever before 00:05:39.259 --> 00:05:42.279 them. Eomer rode there, the white horsetail on 00:05:42.279 --> 00:05:44.800 his helm floating in his speed, and the front 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:47.319 of the first Aorid roared like a breaker foaming 00:05:47.319 --> 00:05:50.860 to the shore, but Theoden could not be overtaken. 00:05:51.220 --> 00:05:53.870 Fae, he seemed. For the battle -fury of his fathers 00:05:53.870 --> 00:05:56.769 ran like new fire in his veins, and he was born 00:05:56.769 --> 00:06:00.189 up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Orame, 00:06:00.329 --> 00:06:02.449 the great of the battle, the Valar, when the 00:06:02.449 --> 00:06:05.509 world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, 00:06:05.689 --> 00:06:08.250 and lo, it shone like an image of the sun, and 00:06:08.250 --> 00:06:10.490 the grass flamed into green about the white of 00:06:10.490 --> 00:06:14.029 his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind 00:06:14.029 --> 00:06:17.209 from the sea, and a darkness was removed, and 00:06:17.209 --> 00:06:20.509 the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, 00:06:20.509 --> 00:06:23.790 and they fled. and died, and the hooves of wrath 00:06:23.790 --> 00:06:27.370 rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan 00:06:27.370 --> 00:06:30.889 burst into song, and they sang as they slew, 00:06:31.149 --> 00:06:33.829 for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound 00:06:33.829 --> 00:06:36.990 of their singing was fair and terrible, and it 00:06:36.990 --> 00:06:44.189 came even to the city." My thesis for you all 00:06:44.189 --> 00:06:49.819 is that music and singing is more than just an 00:06:49.819 --> 00:06:53.720 emotional experience. It is more than just a 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:56.879 speaking of truth into the heart and mind of 00:06:56.879 --> 00:07:00.839 the listener. It is more than just an articulation 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:07.060 of abstract concepts, but that music is a form 00:07:07.060 --> 00:07:11.680 of metaphysical combat. That music is the means 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:17.779 by which God has baked into his creation to fight 00:07:17.779 --> 00:07:22.040 against principalities, forces, powers of darkness, 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:27.379 and that when we sing, we are, in a very real 00:07:27.379 --> 00:07:32.500 sense, making some kind of war. And that is my 00:07:32.500 --> 00:07:36.259 thesis. What do you all think? I'm in agreement. 00:07:37.139 --> 00:07:42.220 I'm in agreement. And just for the, in all clarity, 00:07:42.740 --> 00:07:44.639 this is the second time we've had to record this 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:47.800 podcast, the first time It was an error on my 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:49.519 part, and it stopped recording about halfway 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:53.060 through. So it actually let me dive a little 00:07:53.060 --> 00:07:56.500 bit deeper into this, and I looked through a 00:07:56.500 --> 00:08:00.579 lot of the Bible and gleaned some more examples 00:08:00.579 --> 00:08:04.980 of this. So I think it's very scriptural what 00:08:04.980 --> 00:08:08.839 you're theorizing. There are several examples, 00:08:08.860 --> 00:08:12.680 like I said. The first that comes to mind is 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:19.009 King Saul and David. David used to calm the evil 00:08:19.009 --> 00:08:21.850 spirit that was afflicting King Saul by playing 00:08:21.850 --> 00:08:26.410 his harp and singing. But it doesn't stop with 00:08:26.410 --> 00:08:30.670 David. It actually follows in David's footsteps 00:08:30.670 --> 00:08:36.450 because David anointed Haman to be his man of 00:08:36.450 --> 00:08:41.870 music. And he was known as the Seer and he was 00:08:41.909 --> 00:08:45.850 task with defending and preparing God's people. 00:08:46.149 --> 00:08:50.570 Yeah, I'm in agreement in a less spiritually 00:08:50.570 --> 00:08:55.629 mature way in that I think it's sort of an inductive 00:08:55.629 --> 00:09:01.370 agreement or argument rather. Music is always 00:09:01.370 --> 00:09:05.830 connected to combat in human experience. So you 00:09:05.830 --> 00:09:09.929 think about everybody who's been on a sports 00:09:09.929 --> 00:09:12.649 team, They were playing something to get them 00:09:12.649 --> 00:09:14.269 fired up in the locker room before they went 00:09:14.269 --> 00:09:19.710 out and it's not like Bach or Chopin it's something 00:09:19.710 --> 00:09:22.289 that cultivates aggression There's something 00:09:22.289 --> 00:09:25.029 about the music that feeds the endeavor, you 00:09:25.029 --> 00:09:26.649 know Every once in a while you find somebody 00:09:26.649 --> 00:09:28.789 that has a particular classical piece that they 00:09:28.789 --> 00:09:31.350 like for that kind of thing But it's gonna be 00:09:31.350 --> 00:09:35.490 one of the ones that's very obviously Intense. 00:09:35.529 --> 00:09:37.330 I mean you would think Wagner or something, right? 00:09:37.429 --> 00:09:40.870 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I mean, Carmina Burana comes 00:09:40.870 --> 00:09:44.409 to mind. That one's a... Gustav Holst. Yeah, 00:09:44.429 --> 00:09:47.549 Holst's Planets, right? Mars. So there's a few 00:09:47.549 --> 00:09:49.730 examples of that, but you're right. That's the 00:09:49.730 --> 00:09:54.350 minority, clearly. And there's something mystic 00:09:54.350 --> 00:09:57.250 about music too, again, working inductively, 00:09:57.789 --> 00:10:02.289 in that everybody knows some pagan ritual portrayed 00:10:02.289 --> 00:10:06.269 either in some kind of documentary or in a historical 00:10:06.269 --> 00:10:09.129 fictional narrative. based on historical sources. 00:10:09.149 --> 00:10:13.929 The Northman is a good example of this. Apocalypto 00:10:13.929 --> 00:10:17.090 by Mel Gibson. They're going to do something 00:10:17.090 --> 00:10:20.710 with drums and rhythm and chanting or singing. 00:10:21.850 --> 00:10:24.370 Often dancing as well. Yeah, dancing to sort 00:10:24.370 --> 00:10:28.389 of set the climate or the bloodletting that's 00:10:28.389 --> 00:10:31.730 to follow. So it seems to me that this principle 00:10:31.730 --> 00:10:35.730 is Like I said with Jason, most maturely expressed 00:10:35.730 --> 00:10:38.149 in the scriptural texts where it's being fit 00:10:38.149 --> 00:10:41.210 is being used fitly, or Tolkien who's riffing 00:10:41.210 --> 00:10:45.149 off of them saying something more fit. But even 00:10:45.149 --> 00:10:49.889 the most base behaviors of human conduct reflect 00:10:49.889 --> 00:10:52.490 this as something like a universal truth. Yeah, 00:10:52.649 --> 00:10:56.090 a natural law. I chose the text, the opening 00:10:56.090 --> 00:11:00.090 text. I've had the opportunity and pleasure to 00:11:00.090 --> 00:11:03.820 teach Tolkien to eighth grade students over the 00:11:03.820 --> 00:11:07.139 last few years, and every time we get to that 00:11:07.139 --> 00:11:11.000 particular passage, which I think is one of the 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:15.080 greater passages that Tolkien ever penned, the 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:20.700 students are always challenged by the fact that 00:11:20.700 --> 00:11:27.700 in this scene of mass carnage, the the riders 00:11:27.700 --> 00:11:31.539 of Rohan break out into song. And the text indicates 00:11:31.539 --> 00:11:38.000 that their song is a reflection of the joy that 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:43.460 they experience in combating evil, right? That 00:11:43.460 --> 00:11:47.360 it is, to quote Wordsworth, Wordsworth thought 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:52.039 that poetry was sort of the spontaneous outpouring 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:55.379 or overflow, is the overflow of emotion in the 00:11:55.379 --> 00:11:58.220 state of tranquility. that that's where good 00:11:58.220 --> 00:12:01.740 poetry comes from, that it's a natural byproduct 00:12:01.740 --> 00:12:06.299 of this sort of metaphysical reality. And, you 00:12:06.299 --> 00:12:09.919 know, the Lakeside guys, they probably would 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:12.700 disagree with what we're saying here, but there's 00:12:12.700 --> 00:12:15.460 kind of going back to the universality of this 00:12:15.460 --> 00:12:19.620 thing, that there's a kind of generally accepted 00:12:19.620 --> 00:12:23.759 principle that all throughout the ancient and 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:26.340 the medieval world, It was generally accepted 00:12:26.340 --> 00:12:30.799 that music and martial spirit and spiritual engagement 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:33.559 with the metaphysical realities of our existence, 00:12:34.059 --> 00:12:36.399 that those things were very deeply wedded in 00:12:36.399 --> 00:12:40.200 a way that was mysterious and not fully explainable. 00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:44.720 And living in sort of a post -enlightenment materialist 00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:48.840 world, we've largely cut ourselves off from that 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:51.100 kind of an understanding of music. That music 00:12:51.100 --> 00:12:55.460 has become all about expressionism. and retreatism, 00:12:56.360 --> 00:13:00.440 and a way to sort of in an Aristotelian sense 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:05.720 experience catharsis by venting emotional distress. 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:09.620 Or not, you know, or good things too, but it's 00:13:09.620 --> 00:13:12.639 very located on sort of the individual, the self, 00:13:13.139 --> 00:13:18.100 and that idea of music is a real modern one, 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:20.700 I think. Not that those things didn't exist in 00:13:20.700 --> 00:13:23.470 the ancient world, you know. Catullus was writing 00:13:23.470 --> 00:13:26.950 poetry that basically, if you set it to Taylor 00:13:26.950 --> 00:13:29.269 Swift's four chords, you would get a pop song, 00:13:29.309 --> 00:13:31.429 right? So these things have always kind of existed. 00:13:32.389 --> 00:13:37.070 But nevertheless, Virgil, when he opens up his 00:13:37.070 --> 00:13:41.750 Aeneid, right? It's, you know, Virrumque armacanto, 00:13:42.149 --> 00:13:44.870 right? I sing of the arms and the man, right? 00:13:45.309 --> 00:13:50.549 The great martial text. of the ancient Roman 00:13:50.549 --> 00:13:54.269 world that was meant to be a competitor and to 00:13:54.269 --> 00:13:56.590 be downstream of and to be in the vein of the 00:13:56.590 --> 00:13:58.710 Odyssey, the Iliad and the Odyssey, which are 00:13:58.710 --> 00:14:02.450 the great epics of Greek culture, these things 00:14:02.450 --> 00:14:06.570 are song, right? The Latin word for song is cantus, 00:14:06.870 --> 00:14:08.269 which is also the word that they would use for 00:14:08.269 --> 00:14:12.500 poetry. These things aren't disconnected. the 00:14:12.500 --> 00:14:15.799 epic poetic tradition is an appeal to the muse. 00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:19.440 The muse is the goddess of song, the goddess 00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:22.799 of the arts. And so there's just this deeply 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:29.100 wedded idea that music and a martial spirit go 00:14:29.100 --> 00:14:32.639 hand in hand. And like you said, Jeff, we need 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:34.879 to become more comfortable with the idea that 00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:36.960 the forces of darkness are very comfortable with 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:42.159 this idea. That much of the way that Wicked men 00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:46.659 who are wanting to tap into a supernatural dark 00:14:46.659 --> 00:14:50.639 force, they're doing it by means of music. And 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:57.120 that if we don't reclaim music as a modality 00:14:57.120 --> 00:15:02.820 of spiritual combat, we're charging the hosts 00:15:02.820 --> 00:15:06.419 of Mordor with water guns instead of spears. 00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:09.639 One example, another example that I came across 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:14.120 was Elisha. And this is an account of King Jehoram 00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:19.419 and Elisha having a confrontation. And Elisha 00:15:19.419 --> 00:15:24.419 instructed a harpist to calm them. Jeff, you 00:15:24.419 --> 00:15:27.960 want to read that passage? Yeah, so in verse 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:31.840 15 is really where it comes to a head. The prophet 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:35.019 says, now bring me a minstrel. And it came about 00:15:35.019 --> 00:15:37.600 when the minstrel played. that the hand of the 00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:40.740 Lord came upon him, him being the prophet." Verse 00:15:40.740 --> 00:15:43.399 16, he starts issuing the prophecy. He said, 00:15:43.419 --> 00:15:45.899 "'Thus says the Lord, make this valley full of 00:15:45.899 --> 00:15:49.080 trenches. For thus says the Lord, you will not 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:51.059 see wind, nor shall you see rain, yet that the 00:15:51.059 --> 00:15:52.720 valley will be filled with water, so that you 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:54.220 shall drink both you and your cattle and your 00:15:54.220 --> 00:15:57.379 beasts.'" Like this is the mechanism of unlocking 00:15:57.379 --> 00:16:00.860 the prophetic word coming to the prophet. That 00:16:00.860 --> 00:16:02.659 makes you wonder if he's saying that prophecy. 00:16:03.289 --> 00:16:05.549 It doesn't specifically say that, but I just 00:16:05.549 --> 00:16:10.909 wonder if maybe. Well, on the same front, again, 00:16:11.090 --> 00:16:15.049 dealing with like the lower level, kind of proving 00:16:15.049 --> 00:16:16.850 something about the higher level, the inductive 00:16:16.850 --> 00:16:20.549 side of this. We have even in the experience 00:16:20.549 --> 00:16:24.049 of music, we have language for this, even with 00:16:24.049 --> 00:16:27.350 pop music. We were, we were watching Gone In 00:16:27.350 --> 00:16:29.909 60 Seconds last night as a family. Wow. That's 00:16:29.909 --> 00:16:32.399 a classic. Yeah. And if anybody's listening, 00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:34.360 who's familiar with that movie, there is a timestamp 00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:36.460 we're all aware of that we start fast forwarding. 00:16:36.980 --> 00:16:38.539 Um, but the rest of it's just, you know, cars 00:16:38.539 --> 00:16:42.120 and Nicholas Cage being himself. And before they 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:44.720 go out to do the great big car robbery, they 00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:47.539 put on all my friends know the little rider. 00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:49.080 I don't know what the name of that piece is, 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:51.259 but that's like central to their method. And 00:16:51.259 --> 00:16:54.500 you'll even hear, um, kind of even more like 00:16:54.500 --> 00:16:57.879 bass level. Um, people will talk about putting 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:01.740 on music to set the vibe. Right there's something 00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:08.180 beyond Mere mechanics that music does to alter 00:17:08.180 --> 00:17:11.319 the person who's experiencing it. Yeah, I don't 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:13.880 think it's coincidence right when you think about 00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:16.079 you know, who are the people who are kind of 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:19.700 on the fringes of society and who are the most 00:17:19.700 --> 00:17:24.460 comfortable with alternative views alternative 00:17:24.460 --> 00:17:30.150 lifestyles and tapping into supernatural or or 00:17:30.150 --> 00:17:33.170 spiritual experience to inform them about the 00:17:33.170 --> 00:17:36.289 world, it's the artists, right? This is actually 00:17:36.289 --> 00:17:40.769 a key component in Call of Cthulhu, right? Lovecraft, 00:17:41.269 --> 00:17:44.730 you know, when the demons of the ancients, when 00:17:44.730 --> 00:17:48.089 the ancients, you know, are sort of trying to 00:17:48.089 --> 00:17:52.309 be reawakened in Lovecraft's legendarium and 00:17:52.309 --> 00:17:55.829 they interact with people through dreams, but 00:17:55.829 --> 00:17:59.690 the ones who are deeply affected by the supernatural 00:17:59.690 --> 00:18:03.130 interference that these demonic, these very powerful 00:18:03.130 --> 00:18:06.190 sort of demonic forces are enacting on human 00:18:06.190 --> 00:18:09.970 society, it's the poets, it's the artists, it's 00:18:09.970 --> 00:18:12.609 the sculptors, and it's the singers, right? They're 00:18:12.609 --> 00:18:17.170 the ones who are attuned. And again, right, we 00:18:17.170 --> 00:18:19.809 use this kind of, we are attuned, right? That's 00:18:19.809 --> 00:18:26.279 musical language, right? I'm tapped into a Power 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:28.880 source that is that is deeply greater than myself 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:32.299 and you know, I want to be obviously I want to 00:18:32.299 --> 00:18:35.359 temper this with reason right that I what I'm 00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:39.420 not suggesting is that you know music Will turn 00:18:39.420 --> 00:18:41.759 you into Superman right that it will unlock that 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:44.079 you will suddenly be able to leap tall buildings 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:46.059 in a single bound if you just strike the right 00:18:46.059 --> 00:18:49.519 chords in the right process, but there nevertheless 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:56.029 there is this connection to We have a massive 00:18:56.029 --> 00:19:01.210 problem or a massive need for some kind of power. 00:19:02.130 --> 00:19:04.630 And what's our solution? Our solution is to tap 00:19:04.630 --> 00:19:08.430 into a very deep well of power. I know, Jason, 00:19:08.450 --> 00:19:10.289 you've used that language a lot, right? That 00:19:10.289 --> 00:19:13.910 there's this sort of... It's infinite. Infinite 00:19:13.910 --> 00:19:18.049 well. Yeah, thank you. Infinite well of power. 00:19:19.210 --> 00:19:22.990 And that music is the on -ramp, off -ramp. of 00:19:22.990 --> 00:19:29.430 that well. And I think the Bible is clear, and 00:19:29.430 --> 00:19:34.549 human history is clear, that people who are tapping 00:19:34.549 --> 00:19:37.289 into supernatural darkness are very comfortable 00:19:37.289 --> 00:19:40.930 with doing that. But as believers, we have a 00:19:40.930 --> 00:19:46.670 greater source. Well, the evil is a counterfeit 00:19:46.670 --> 00:19:51.269 or derivation of the good, right? And so, I think 00:19:51.390 --> 00:19:54.490 I heard this from a guy named John Mason Hodges. 00:19:55.589 --> 00:19:59.730 He was talking about the nature of music as what 00:19:59.730 --> 00:20:03.089 we said earlier, natural law. What role in God's 00:20:03.089 --> 00:20:07.670 economy does music perform? And if you understand 00:20:07.670 --> 00:20:12.250 contextually that the world is full of demonstrations 00:20:12.250 --> 00:20:15.430 of who God is and what he does, they show up 00:20:15.430 --> 00:20:18.069 in Scripture all the time, like we this Sunday 00:20:18.069 --> 00:20:20.779 were talking about. light coming into the darkness 00:20:20.779 --> 00:20:23.559 in Christmas season. Common motif, right? Light 00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:26.819 comes up, darkness goes away. I heard Doug Wilson 00:20:26.819 --> 00:20:29.259 say one time that we tend to think of that as 00:20:29.259 --> 00:20:32.599 like Jesus being really good at drawing natural 00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:36.940 comparisons. So he sees a vine and he says, oh, 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:40.519 my relationship to you is like a vine with a 00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:43.309 branch that bears fruit. But Doug Wilson said 00:20:43.309 --> 00:20:45.089 you're getting that backwards because he's the 00:20:45.089 --> 00:20:47.730 creator of all things. So the reason a vine exists 00:20:47.730 --> 00:20:51.269 in the world is that humans would have a ready, 00:20:52.029 --> 00:20:55.470 well -met, well -understood example of what it 00:20:55.470 --> 00:20:57.809 means to be a believer bearing fruit in connection 00:20:57.809 --> 00:21:00.690 with Jesus. You know, it's not him being a good 00:21:00.690 --> 00:21:02.970 illustrator. It's that he baked it into the world 00:21:02.970 --> 00:21:05.609 so we would know it. Same deal with Father. How 00:21:05.609 --> 00:21:07.309 do we know what it means to call God Father? 00:21:07.609 --> 00:21:09.990 It's because from your earliest days, you should 00:21:09.990 --> 00:21:13.250 know someone as Father who's powerful, loving, 00:21:13.710 --> 00:21:16.009 working for your best interest, directing you, 00:21:16.130 --> 00:21:18.109 right? That's built there so we can understand 00:21:18.109 --> 00:21:21.490 something of God. So John Mason Hodges was saying, 00:21:22.170 --> 00:21:25.750 music is how God has taught us about the Trinity. 00:21:25.890 --> 00:21:28.609 Because the doctrine of the Trinity in orthodox 00:21:28.609 --> 00:21:31.970 formulation is there are three persons in one 00:21:31.970 --> 00:21:35.609 Godhead. And so there's one God who exists eternally 00:21:35.609 --> 00:21:39.329 in three persons. So what you have there is unity 00:21:39.329 --> 00:21:42.809 and distinction. And it's the most unique doctrine 00:21:42.809 --> 00:21:46.049 in the religious world. You know, it's kind of 00:21:46.049 --> 00:21:48.470 a fascinating subject in and of itself, but it's 00:21:48.470 --> 00:21:52.329 true. So where do we see diversity and unity? 00:21:52.670 --> 00:21:55.130 And he would point to music. So you have these 00:21:55.130 --> 00:21:57.410 distinct notes or whatever, but they're unified 00:21:57.410 --> 00:22:00.430 in the theme of the song. And that God had provided 00:22:00.430 --> 00:22:04.329 music, which I think makes sense of why every 00:22:04.329 --> 00:22:06.569 culture, no matter how isolated from one another, 00:22:06.809 --> 00:22:09.589 no matter how unique and all the other cultural 00:22:09.589 --> 00:22:12.509 expressions they've generated, they all have 00:22:12.509 --> 00:22:18.069 some sort of music that is going to be very important 00:22:18.069 --> 00:22:21.069 to their shared life together. Music's universal. 00:22:21.650 --> 00:22:23.890 I think it's because, according, I think John 00:22:23.890 --> 00:22:26.950 Mason Hodges is right, it's because God universally 00:22:26.950 --> 00:22:29.809 gave a testimony to Himself as the triune God. 00:22:30.049 --> 00:22:34.599 And that would also explain why forces that have 00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:36.960 set themselves up to be opposed to God and His 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:39.740 goodness have such a desire to see it corrupted, 00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:43.099 right? And play off of the thing he built in, 00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:45.720 right? Like how do we, I mean, I guess the idea 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.160 is there's like this flowing stream of water 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:50.640 and what they do is say, well, how do we divert 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:53.339 that towards something unprofitable? The stream 00:22:53.339 --> 00:22:56.180 exists, it's flowing towards whatever God's profit 00:22:56.180 --> 00:22:59.640 is in mind, but because they're counterfeiters, 00:22:59.859 --> 00:23:04.019 derivers, they divert it for some other bad end. 00:23:04.539 --> 00:23:07.920 One of the biggest counterfeits that I've seen 00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:12.740 example of is in 1973, they were in New York 00:23:12.740 --> 00:23:14.539 City. A bunch of rappers got together and started 00:23:14.539 --> 00:23:19.700 talking about a concept. And then that led to, 00:23:19.700 --> 00:23:25.839 in 1996, KRS -1 created a temple of hip -hop. 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:30.400 And it's a 501C3. It's a quote, temple. All the 00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:35.019 hip -hop. has really grown out of that. Out of 00:23:35.019 --> 00:23:38.119 the religious nature of the temple? Yes. Everything 00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:40.779 that it stands for, you know, it's a certain 00:23:40.779 --> 00:23:44.039 culture. It's a certain way to behave. It's a 00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:45.960 certain thing that you're owed and everything. 00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:50.779 It's just really, you've really seen the institution 00:23:50.779 --> 00:23:53.940 of hip hop gain so much steam and power over 00:23:53.940 --> 00:23:58.220 the years that I think it's a good example. of 00:23:58.220 --> 00:24:01.079 the dark side of what you're speaking of, Jeff. 00:24:01.420 --> 00:24:05.539 Yeah, right. The power source exists, and so 00:24:05.539 --> 00:24:07.539 people are going to attempt to plug into it for 00:24:07.539 --> 00:24:11.059 nefarious ends. Yeah, and I think that we're 00:24:11.059 --> 00:24:16.119 really comfortable in 2025, about to be 2026, 00:24:16.380 --> 00:24:18.960 right? In our culture, we're really comfortable 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:21.740 with recognizing that music is powerful. I think 00:24:21.740 --> 00:24:24.119 most people would say music has a certain kind 00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:27.690 of power to it. But it's usually localized in 00:24:27.690 --> 00:24:32.609 very either as I was as I was saying earlier, 00:24:32.609 --> 00:24:37.269 like very individual enterprises. And so I won't 00:24:37.269 --> 00:24:39.849 rehash like that's the artist expressing himself 00:24:39.849 --> 00:24:42.269 fully through music. And then that and then it 00:24:42.269 --> 00:24:44.970 becomes a means of like cultural change. Right. 00:24:44.990 --> 00:24:48.170 Like you can enact you can you can cast a vision 00:24:48.170 --> 00:24:52.390 and sort of enact changing the minds of people 00:24:52.390 --> 00:24:56.299 by appealing to their Aesthetic senses, right? 00:24:56.359 --> 00:24:58.920 So we're comfortable with that as an idea brings 00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:01.519 people together of certain interests as well 00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:05.420 You know like you mentioned Taylor Swift's four 00:25:05.420 --> 00:25:08.200 chords if there's one specific thing that she's 00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:10.799 famous for amongst in at least in terms of her 00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:14.799 music, it's the constant flow of breakup songs, 00:25:15.059 --> 00:25:19.200 right, right and This is probably arguably the 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:21.299 biggest artist in the world and her claim to 00:25:21.299 --> 00:25:24.009 fame is that she just sings about how many ex 00:25:24.009 --> 00:25:27.009 -boyfriends she has and how bad they were. Occasionally, 00:25:27.029 --> 00:25:29.690 probably how sad she is about that. What is that 00:25:29.690 --> 00:25:32.990 going to affect her millions of listeners who 00:25:32.990 --> 00:25:35.849 listen to her stuff on repeat? What is their 00:25:35.849 --> 00:25:40.230 opinion of relationships going to become? How 00:25:40.230 --> 00:25:46.549 to handle difficult times in relationships? Yeah, 00:25:46.849 --> 00:25:48.920 catechesis is a good way to think about it. Yeah, 00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:52.299 we know this at the school that we work at, right? 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:57.220 Like we understand that it's a good mnemonic, 00:25:57.400 --> 00:26:00.180 it's a good way to memorize things, is to chant 00:26:00.180 --> 00:26:06.880 them, is to set them to rhythm, and it embeds 00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:08.920 something into the heart and into the mind of 00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:13.000 the person that's engaging in the practice, but 00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:15.190 we... I think we like to think about that in 00:26:15.190 --> 00:26:17.470 very materialist categories. It's purely cognitive. 00:26:17.490 --> 00:26:20.930 It's purely cognitive, exactly. That we're not 00:26:20.930 --> 00:26:23.190 talking about something supernatural. We're not 00:26:23.190 --> 00:26:26.029 talking about something metaphysical. We're talking 00:26:26.029 --> 00:26:29.430 about something that is, you know, for the atheist 00:26:29.430 --> 00:26:32.029 out there, he would say, you know, we're talking 00:26:32.029 --> 00:26:34.170 about something that is sort of an evolutionary 00:26:34.170 --> 00:26:36.809 byproduct of the development of man that he's 00:26:36.809 --> 00:26:39.609 recognized in his Freudian subconscious that 00:26:39.609 --> 00:26:43.750 this is the best way to transmute core principles 00:26:43.750 --> 00:26:46.349 and ideas that will continue the line that will 00:26:46.349 --> 00:26:48.450 continue, you know, continue the race into the 00:26:48.450 --> 00:26:51.890 next generation. You know, it's, it's, it's so 00:26:51.890 --> 00:26:56.789 disconnected from any kind of acknowledgement 00:26:56.789 --> 00:26:59.289 of a supernatural reality, something transcendent, 00:26:59.309 --> 00:27:01.569 something transcendent, which is a shame because 00:27:01.569 --> 00:27:04.049 we didn't always think this way. You know, we 00:27:04.049 --> 00:27:07.650 used to understand again that this was the understanding 00:27:07.650 --> 00:27:10.809 of music well up into the Renaissance is that 00:27:10.809 --> 00:27:19.380 music is a way to, you cannot cut the veil and 00:27:19.380 --> 00:27:22.619 step through a portal, but music is a way to 00:27:22.619 --> 00:27:25.859 make that veil very thin. It's a way to see a 00:27:25.859 --> 00:27:30.160 shadow. Well maybe we might say you can't lawfully 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:32.640 step through the veil. Is there maybe somebody 00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:34.859 who ends up hearing this who's using ayahuasca 00:27:34.859 --> 00:27:38.480 or something like that to kind of get. what may 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:41.000 legitimately be a glimpse of the other side in 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:42.980 whatever way, right? Absolutely. We don't endorse 00:27:42.980 --> 00:27:46.440 that. You're right. That's an unlawful breaching 00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:49.180 of appropriate boundary. Right. But like music 00:27:49.180 --> 00:27:52.079 is somehow an appropriate bridge. Yeah. That 00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:55.079 you're authorized to walk. And the great composers 00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:58.579 understood, you know, the Age of Enlightenment 00:27:58.579 --> 00:28:00.720 is a really interesting time period to study 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:06.079 because what you had happening socially was a 00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:07.880 continuation of the scientific revolution that 00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:12.720 comes before it. And basically what the enlightenment 00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:15.619 thinkers were trying to do was take what they 00:28:15.619 --> 00:28:17.460 saw were very good benefits of the scientific 00:28:17.460 --> 00:28:22.000 revolution in the world of industry, in the world 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:25.900 of science, hard sciences, the mechanical arts. 00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:29.640 And what it's all kind of rooted in is the idea, 00:28:30.220 --> 00:28:34.650 is the hypothesis really, of can you take what 00:28:34.650 --> 00:28:39.049 science has clearly been able to achieve in the 00:28:39.049 --> 00:28:42.789 mechanical arts and can you apply them to other 00:28:42.789 --> 00:28:46.130 domains and get similar results? And so really 00:28:46.130 --> 00:28:47.849 what the enlightenment people, what the enlightenment 00:28:47.849 --> 00:28:50.809 thinkers were trying to do was essentially discover 00:28:50.809 --> 00:28:53.670 what is the scientific method that will produce 00:28:53.670 --> 00:28:58.890 utopia, right? How can we come up with a testable 00:28:58.890 --> 00:29:03.490 process, scientific process that will carry humans 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:11.420 into a higher, loftier, more beneficial way of 00:29:11.420 --> 00:29:17.640 living. And we're big fans of reason. We think 00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:21.480 that man is reasonable and he ought to use his 00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:25.640 reason. So there's some good there. But it's 00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:30.180 a complete divorce from Galileo and Copernicus 00:29:30.180 --> 00:29:33.259 and the guys of the scientific revolution. who 00:29:33.259 --> 00:29:36.920 what they were trying to do was catch a glimpse 00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:40.759 of the transcendent glory of the creator by looking 00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:43.839 at how he had articulated those divine attributes 00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:48.019 in the world that he had made. And so the Enlightenment 00:29:48.019 --> 00:29:50.619 people, what they're really, in essence, what 00:29:50.619 --> 00:29:52.940 they're trying to do is get all of the order 00:29:52.940 --> 00:29:56.019 that God has baked into creation without the 00:29:56.019 --> 00:30:00.140 God who made it, right? Which produces, eventually, 00:30:00.410 --> 00:30:03.849 disastrous results, the further away from Christianity 00:30:03.849 --> 00:30:09.509 you get. And the Romantic movement that was sort 00:30:09.509 --> 00:30:11.970 of a backlash against the Enlightenment, what 00:30:11.970 --> 00:30:14.730 those people understood was that man is not simply 00:30:14.730 --> 00:30:16.650 a reasonable creature, and that if you take the 00:30:16.650 --> 00:30:19.130 Enlightenment too far, what you get is Stoicism, 00:30:19.470 --> 00:30:23.190 which we don't want, because it denies 50 % of 00:30:23.190 --> 00:30:25.170 what it means to be a human, which is that we're 00:30:25.170 --> 00:30:27.390 not just thinking things, we're also feeling 00:30:27.390 --> 00:30:31.400 things. And so the Romantics wanted to reclaim 00:30:31.400 --> 00:30:35.960 the emotional aspect of humanity, or at least 00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:38.440 try to remind everybody, hey, we ought not to 00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:40.720 jettison that out as we try to achieve utopia. 00:30:41.180 --> 00:30:44.319 But again, what they were trying to do was reclaim 00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:48.200 that, but the Enlightenment people are right 00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:51.000 in that we don't need God anymore. We've transcended 00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:55.880 the need for a religious fencing and a religious 00:30:55.880 --> 00:30:59.740 translator. in trying to understand those aspects 00:30:59.740 --> 00:31:02.680 of human society and really the makeup of even 00:31:02.680 --> 00:31:04.859 the individual. And so you get the lakeside poets. 00:31:05.059 --> 00:31:07.680 You get, you know, I wandered lonely as a cloud, 00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:10.819 which breeds sentimentality, and that kind of 00:31:10.819 --> 00:31:13.059 leads us up into modernism and postmodernism. 00:31:13.079 --> 00:31:17.680 And now music has come so far away from Handel's 00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:20.299 Messiah, right? We had the opportunity to catch 00:31:20.299 --> 00:31:22.480 the Nashville Symphony just a few nights ago. 00:31:22.539 --> 00:31:26.079 Several of us went to go see Handel's Messiah 00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:29.940 performed. Handel's Messiah was composed during 00:31:29.940 --> 00:31:32.420 the Enlightenment, leading up to the Enlightenment. 00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:34.359 And one of the interesting things about when 00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:37.500 you study that time period is socially and scientifically 00:31:37.500 --> 00:31:41.380 you're seeing, and even in the visual arts, you're 00:31:41.380 --> 00:31:46.140 seeing massive departures away from the Christian 00:31:46.140 --> 00:31:48.119 moorings of the medieval world, like they're 00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:50.740 departing from that to try to achieve a higher 00:31:50.740 --> 00:31:54.420 reason. But the music of that time period is 00:31:54.420 --> 00:31:57.670 almost is almost universally and deeply Christian. 00:31:58.349 --> 00:32:00.509 It's a very interesting, it typically doesn't 00:32:00.509 --> 00:32:02.269 go that way. Or at least what survived from that 00:32:02.269 --> 00:32:04.769 period. Yeah, yeah, sure. What we think of is 00:32:04.769 --> 00:32:06.109 like, when you think of the great Enlightenment 00:32:06.109 --> 00:32:13.210 composers, right, they're still tethered to a 00:32:13.210 --> 00:32:15.109 mooring that is much more medieval than it is 00:32:15.109 --> 00:32:18.450 Enlightenment. But they're applying the reason 00:32:18.450 --> 00:32:22.509 of the Enlightenment to create musical genius. 00:32:24.069 --> 00:32:27.650 It's really quite something. Now, I'm much more 00:32:27.650 --> 00:32:30.710 of a layman on this topic, but I see both romanticism 00:32:30.710 --> 00:32:33.130 and the Enlightenment as fundamentally materialist 00:32:33.130 --> 00:32:35.269 and rationalist projects. Yes, I agree. Because 00:32:35.269 --> 00:32:37.890 the one thing they really hold in common is that 00:32:37.890 --> 00:32:44.509 God is entirely inessential. You can have the 00:32:44.509 --> 00:32:47.630 romantic experientialism, but it just sort of 00:32:47.630 --> 00:32:50.150 happens for whatever reason. We don't really 00:32:50.150 --> 00:32:52.900 know But it's part of the human experience, right? 00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:56.680 It kind of hangs on its own in the air. It becomes 00:32:56.680 --> 00:33:01.799 asaic, right? It becomes like a principle that 00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:04.140 we would normally only attribute to God, right? 00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:07.700 That everything else in existence, it exists 00:33:07.700 --> 00:33:10.640 by the word of His power. God is the only self 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:13.660 -actuating being, right? God is the only one 00:33:13.660 --> 00:33:17.009 who exists. Because he exists everything else 00:33:17.009 --> 00:33:19.190 exists because of him what they would both of 00:33:19.190 --> 00:33:20.710 those projects are doing and they're kind of 00:33:20.710 --> 00:33:23.529 fighting. Against each other in some ways but 00:33:23.529 --> 00:33:25.769 also fighting hand in hand on the common ground 00:33:25.769 --> 00:33:28.390 on the common ground which is exactly what you're 00:33:28.390 --> 00:33:30.730 describing right that these things are just. 00:33:31.049 --> 00:33:34.369 They are the highest good. Or they are good, 00:33:34.369 --> 00:33:35.890 maybe is not even the right word, but they are 00:33:35.890 --> 00:33:38.950 just the highest expression of what is. Yeah, 00:33:38.950 --> 00:33:41.009 and I would even say like a reflection. So as 00:33:41.009 --> 00:33:42.890 image bearers, we're privileged to know that 00:33:42.890 --> 00:33:45.789 the reason I have a capacity to experience love, 00:33:46.089 --> 00:33:50.509 any form of sentiment, anger, right? It's because 00:33:50.509 --> 00:33:52.609 I bear the image of the one in whom those things 00:33:52.609 --> 00:33:55.369 are self -actuatingly present. So God experiences 00:33:55.369 --> 00:33:59.309 anger, therefore his image bearers can. It's 00:33:59.309 --> 00:34:03.250 a product of being creature to His Creator, right? 00:34:03.269 --> 00:34:06.390 But the Enlightenment guys and the Romantic guys 00:34:06.390 --> 00:34:08.369 are both saying, well, those things are present. 00:34:08.429 --> 00:34:11.769 They exist, but with no reference to God, right? 00:34:11.809 --> 00:34:14.849 So the hard sciences exist, but no reference 00:34:14.849 --> 00:34:17.389 to the God who is the order of His creation. 00:34:18.150 --> 00:34:20.769 And the, what we would call the humanitarian 00:34:20.769 --> 00:34:24.889 arts or experiences, those exist, but in no reference 00:34:24.889 --> 00:34:28.079 to the Creator that they're of. derivative of 00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:30.639 which is incredibly dangerous because if we're 00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:37.019 right about music being Having something in its 00:34:37.019 --> 00:34:43.179 nature that is supernatural divine a way to tap 00:34:43.179 --> 00:34:47.420 into an infinite well and It's but it's been 00:34:47.420 --> 00:34:50.139 completely divorced from understanding that the 00:34:50.139 --> 00:34:52.619 world is more than just the sum of its parts 00:34:52.619 --> 00:34:55.579 that it's directly connected to and a reflection 00:34:55.579 --> 00:35:01.800 of the creator, then what you have is a nuclear 00:35:01.800 --> 00:35:06.360 reactor that anybody can tap into and turn on, 00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:09.679 turn off, crank it up to 11 or crank it down 00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:12.000 to one, right? Like you just have this infinite 00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:15.280 power source that - We've self -consciously thrown 00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:19.059 the manual away to - Right, away, which is incredibly 00:35:19.059 --> 00:35:22.789 dangerous. It is. It's almost like it speaks 00:35:22.789 --> 00:35:25.949 to and from our soul, but it can bridge our mind 00:35:25.949 --> 00:35:29.530 and our body. So its source is like spiritual, 00:35:29.829 --> 00:35:33.809 but it can speak to all three parts of us. It 00:35:33.809 --> 00:35:37.329 bridges the physical and the non -physical parts 00:35:37.329 --> 00:35:39.789 of what it means to be human. Yeah. The common 00:35:39.789 --> 00:35:42.369 term is soul music, but I think there's more 00:35:42.369 --> 00:35:45.130 truth in that than being soul and spirit the 00:35:45.130 --> 00:35:48.389 same thing. It has really capitalized on that 00:35:48.389 --> 00:35:51.199 idea without being directly, you know, attributed 00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:54.659 to it. Well, this is why, I mean, everybody in 00:35:54.659 --> 00:35:57.260 this room and probably everybody listening is 00:35:57.260 --> 00:36:02.480 a fan of Tolkien and C .S. Lewis. And the Enlightenment, 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:06.659 the Romantics, all those kind of history of ideas, 00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:10.300 concepts, they're held in much higher regard 00:36:10.300 --> 00:36:13.300 than the medieval period. You know, there's been 00:36:13.300 --> 00:36:17.539 this horribly false and wicked Slander campaign 00:36:17.539 --> 00:36:19.599 against the medieval period to call it the Dark 00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:23.380 Ages It couldn't be further from the truth. Maybe 00:36:23.380 --> 00:36:27.019 the pinnacle of human thought but Tolkien and 00:36:27.019 --> 00:36:32.300 Lewis are both medievalists and so in their fiction 00:36:32.300 --> 00:36:36.500 that continues to captivate Subsequent generations 00:36:36.500 --> 00:36:39.739 year by year and people of very different worldviews 00:36:39.739 --> 00:36:42.460 some who have no reference to God at all because 00:36:42.460 --> 00:36:44.800 they remain against him It continues to find 00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:48.679 new fans And, you know, Narnia, I think, is kind 00:36:48.679 --> 00:36:53.559 of aping Tolkien's legendarium, but this is why 00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:56.420 Tolkien's legendarium is the second best outside 00:36:56.420 --> 00:36:58.679 of the... It gives the best creation account 00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:02.480 that's not the actual one that shows up in Genesis, 00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:06.300 because the medievalist guy had a sense of this 00:37:06.300 --> 00:37:09.099 power, and so he has, in the creation of his 00:37:09.099 --> 00:37:12.880 world, Middle Earth, the creator sings it into 00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:16.849 existence. And even the bad guy, who's trying 00:37:16.849 --> 00:37:20.949 to thwart the designer's intentions with the 00:37:20.949 --> 00:37:24.650 song, he begins to sing as well and accomplish 00:37:24.650 --> 00:37:29.469 his aims through his song. Yet the creator is 00:37:29.469 --> 00:37:32.769 so transcendently powerful that he integrates 00:37:32.769 --> 00:37:37.130 the discordant themes into his own song. These 00:37:37.130 --> 00:37:41.030 sons of the medieval period actually saw through 00:37:41.030 --> 00:37:44.860 the darkness of empiricism and romanticism to 00:37:44.860 --> 00:37:48.519 something that's much more, not just true to 00:37:48.519 --> 00:37:51.480 our lived experience, but true to what we all 00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:55.179 intrinsically know about reality. Yeah, I couldn't 00:37:55.179 --> 00:37:59.059 have articulated it better. And then that, so 00:37:59.059 --> 00:38:02.920 for the listener, okay, if you go with us on 00:38:02.920 --> 00:38:08.380 this intellectual experiment here, and you say, 00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:12.389 okay, music is this thing that is More than what 00:38:12.389 --> 00:38:14.130 I've sort of been led to believe by my culture 00:38:14.130 --> 00:38:15.929 or more than what I've more than what I've ever 00:38:15.929 --> 00:38:19.329 considered in the past What is that? What why 00:38:19.329 --> 00:38:22.429 does that matter? What does it mean, right? And 00:38:22.429 --> 00:38:24.670 so Tolkien I think again is helpful here, right? 00:38:24.750 --> 00:38:26.550 There are a couple different scenes in the text. 00:38:26.690 --> 00:38:30.829 I'll let you talk about The the great Tom, but 00:38:30.829 --> 00:38:32.929 don't give me a second. I'll do Frodo and then 00:38:32.929 --> 00:38:37.329 you do Tom so Frodo in the Lord of the Rings 00:38:37.329 --> 00:38:41.570 early early in the adventure The party is attacked 00:38:41.570 --> 00:38:44.650 by ringwraiths, Nazgul. They're essentially demons. 00:38:44.710 --> 00:38:46.190 If you've never watched the movies or read the 00:38:46.190 --> 00:38:49.190 books, they're the Dark Lord Sauron's greatest 00:38:49.190 --> 00:38:52.329 servants. They're like demon ghosts, but they 00:38:52.329 --> 00:38:56.989 can't be killed. And just his biggest thugs, 00:38:57.090 --> 00:39:01.309 the big bads. Yeah, they're a power that no mortal 00:39:01.309 --> 00:39:05.449 man can really interact with and hope to survive. 00:39:06.329 --> 00:39:08.690 And if you watch the movies, there's a great 00:39:08.690 --> 00:39:12.690 scene on the top of Weathertop where Frodo and 00:39:12.690 --> 00:39:15.650 the other hobbits are beset by them, Frodo falls 00:39:15.650 --> 00:39:18.289 to temptation, he puts the ring on, he sees them 00:39:18.289 --> 00:39:21.929 sort of revealed for what they really are, and 00:39:21.929 --> 00:39:24.550 he is stabbed by the Witch King of Angmar, the 00:39:24.550 --> 00:39:26.269 very same one that was described in the text 00:39:26.269 --> 00:39:28.429 that I read at the beginning of the podcast. 00:39:30.010 --> 00:39:33.139 And this sort of... Moment of absolute despair 00:39:33.139 --> 00:39:34.980 where it looks like oh, this is gonna be a really 00:39:34.980 --> 00:39:37.920 short story The bad guys gonna get the ring the 00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:40.719 world's gonna end and close the book nihilism 00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:44.199 everybody. Yeah, right Not only if George RR 00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:47.360 Martin wrote it then what happened in the movies 00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:49.639 Aragorn shows up wielding a sword and a flaming 00:39:49.639 --> 00:39:52.980 brand and he fights them all off and It's a great 00:39:52.980 --> 00:39:55.019 scene. I mean it really works for the films, 00:39:55.019 --> 00:39:56.719 but in the books the scene plays out a little 00:39:56.719 --> 00:40:00.380 differently. They're all wielding firebrands 00:40:00.380 --> 00:40:02.239 and they're all sort of standing back to back 00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:05.860 and the Witch King sort of sneaks into the firelight 00:40:05.860 --> 00:40:08.420 and he stabs Frodo very clandestinely. More like 00:40:08.420 --> 00:40:13.159 a rogue or an assassin than a British assailant. 00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:20.699 And Frodo, he recites a poem. In this moment 00:40:20.699 --> 00:40:24.360 of distress, he recites an ancient poem about 00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:28.079 Elbreth. And in the aftermath of the battle, 00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:30.800 Though it's not really a battle because he does 00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:32.619 that and then they all kind of run away and then 00:40:32.619 --> 00:40:36.360 they move on. Aragorn makes a comment and what 00:40:36.360 --> 00:40:40.800 he says is that the name of Elbereth in the poem 00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:44.639 that Frodo recited, a song, a kind of song, that 00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:48.179 the song that Frodo sang, Aragorn says, that 00:40:48.179 --> 00:40:52.219 was more deadly to the foe than Frodo's sword 00:40:52.219 --> 00:40:54.780 ever could have been. And Frodo's actually got 00:40:54.780 --> 00:40:56.519 a sword of the westerness, like he's got a pretty 00:40:56.519 --> 00:40:59.230 good sword. at that moment in the story. But 00:40:59.230 --> 00:41:02.650 it would have done nothing to the Witch King. 00:41:03.070 --> 00:41:07.369 But the song is what caused them to flee. The 00:41:07.369 --> 00:41:10.210 name of Elbereth, he was tapping into something 00:41:10.210 --> 00:41:14.969 that was ancient and powerful and good and greater 00:41:14.969 --> 00:41:18.449 than himself. It's a reference to elves that 00:41:18.449 --> 00:41:20.469 fought against the same kind of dark powers in 00:41:20.469 --> 00:41:22.969 the past. And then the song commemorated it and 00:41:22.969 --> 00:41:26.110 it became... I don't know, something like a hymn, 00:41:26.130 --> 00:41:28.210 perhaps. I don't know if that's too far, but 00:41:28.210 --> 00:41:31.510 they, you know, to remember the deed they wrote, 00:41:31.550 --> 00:41:34.269 there was a ballad which takes the form of this 00:41:34.269 --> 00:41:36.610 poem and it comes up a few times in the book. 00:41:36.769 --> 00:41:41.190 So, you know, he calls upon Gilthoniel, Elbreth, 00:41:41.309 --> 00:41:44.230 and then, and it's, you know, it's not necessarily 00:41:44.230 --> 00:41:45.769 always, cause you know, you just walk around 00:41:45.769 --> 00:41:47.650 saying that and all the bad guys run off. That 00:41:47.650 --> 00:41:50.630 doesn't really work that way, but it does come 00:41:50.630 --> 00:41:53.730 in clutch a few times. Yeah, absolutely. There 00:41:53.730 --> 00:41:55.710 was a very well -meaning teacher that I used 00:41:55.710 --> 00:41:58.730 to work with who used to say, you know, Lord 00:41:58.730 --> 00:42:00.050 of the Rings was really hard for me to read. 00:42:00.389 --> 00:42:02.170 Then I skipped the songs and I was able to get 00:42:02.170 --> 00:42:05.750 through the book. And what I told this person 00:42:05.750 --> 00:42:09.090 was then you missed the point, right? If you 00:42:09.090 --> 00:42:12.010 skipped the music. you're really missing the 00:42:12.010 --> 00:42:15.449 point of the entire text. And there's a secondary, 00:42:15.829 --> 00:42:17.869 or maybe this is primary, what I'm saying is 00:42:17.869 --> 00:42:20.150 secondary, but there's another reason why that 00:42:20.150 --> 00:42:23.250 particular scene and what you just talked about, 00:42:23.329 --> 00:42:26.010 Terry, with the reference to the past, a key 00:42:26.010 --> 00:42:29.090 theme in Tolkien is that as time progresses, 00:42:29.570 --> 00:42:33.030 things degenerate. The long defeat. The long 00:42:33.030 --> 00:42:37.050 defeat, right? The heroes that we have now, as 00:42:37.050 --> 00:42:39.440 great as they are. are not as great as the heroes 00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:41.900 that we had in the past. But also the evils that 00:42:41.900 --> 00:42:44.719 we face now are not as significant as the evils 00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:47.239 that they faced. That there's this sort of long 00:42:47.239 --> 00:42:50.679 degeneration, and I do think he's talking about 00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:53.360 medievalism and enlightenment, and modernism 00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:55.639 and then postmodernism, right? That we're just 00:42:55.639 --> 00:42:58.199 constantly moving further and further away from 00:42:58.199 --> 00:43:01.079 the old glories of the world. Everything's getting 00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:03.619 weaker. Everything's getting weaker. Okay, enough 00:43:03.619 --> 00:43:06.500 on that. All right, I'm supposed to do Uncle 00:43:06.500 --> 00:43:08.619 Tom? Yeah. No, that's the way, that's a different 00:43:08.619 --> 00:43:11.500 guy. That's a different guy. Tom Bombadil is 00:43:11.500 --> 00:43:13.840 another of Tolkien's characters, which by the 00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:15.300 way, I don't know if, Jeff, I don't know if you 00:43:15.300 --> 00:43:16.519 mentioned it or not, but if you're interested 00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:18.920 in that singing creation account, that is in 00:43:18.920 --> 00:43:22.139 the Silmarillion, which is probably the, well, 00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:24.119 if you count the Lord of the Rings as one volume. 00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:26.780 And you should. And you ought to read it as one 00:43:26.780 --> 00:43:29.409 story. That's his number one. The Hobbit is his 00:43:29.409 --> 00:43:31.150 number two. The Silmarillion is probably his 00:43:31.150 --> 00:43:34.389 third most read. It's a much more complex work. 00:43:34.389 --> 00:43:36.690 Yeah, it reads very much like a history text. 00:43:36.869 --> 00:43:38.610 So if you like Middle Earth, you'll enjoy it. 00:43:38.630 --> 00:43:40.510 And if you are kind of could take it or leave 00:43:40.510 --> 00:43:42.070 it, but you like the Lord of the Rings for its 00:43:42.070 --> 00:43:44.210 own sake, you might not love it. But I really 00:43:44.210 --> 00:43:46.289 think everybody ought to read the creation account. 00:43:46.530 --> 00:43:48.610 Yeah, it's at the beginning of the book and it's 00:43:48.610 --> 00:43:50.230 not, you know, it takes up a little bit. But 00:43:50.230 --> 00:43:52.349 anyway, that's where it is. So Tom Bombadil is 00:43:52.349 --> 00:43:54.269 in the Fellowship of the Ring, which is the first 00:43:54.269 --> 00:43:58.940 of the Lord of the Rings books and Fairly early 00:43:58.940 --> 00:44:00.960 on in the text, although every time I read it 00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:03.559 I'm always surprised how far into the book it 00:44:03.559 --> 00:44:06.099 is before they actually get there so the hobbits 00:44:06.099 --> 00:44:08.619 have been wandering through the old forest which 00:44:08.619 --> 00:44:11.940 is Rumored to be haunted or possessed of some 00:44:11.940 --> 00:44:14.820 sort of dark Presence and they're not really 00:44:14.820 --> 00:44:16.820 sure exactly what it is But by the time they've 00:44:16.820 --> 00:44:18.639 arrived where they are when they encounter him, 00:44:18.860 --> 00:44:21.400 it's very clear that the forest is malevolent 00:44:21.630 --> 00:44:24.909 And it has changed the trails, it is hemming 00:44:24.909 --> 00:44:28.150 them in, it is pushing them towards this river 00:44:28.150 --> 00:44:30.489 which seems to be the epicenter of the darkness, 00:44:30.610 --> 00:44:34.949 the withywindle. And so they find themselves 00:44:34.949 --> 00:44:38.110 on the banks of the withywindle, near a very 00:44:38.110 --> 00:44:42.050 old gnarled willow tree, and they begin to fall 00:44:42.050 --> 00:44:44.670 asleep. And this is very apparently some sort 00:44:44.670 --> 00:44:48.849 of miasma that's being put upon them by an outside 00:44:48.849 --> 00:44:51.800 force. not personified yet as far as we know. 00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:55.900 So they fall asleep and two of them are captured 00:44:55.900 --> 00:44:58.460 by this old gnarled willow. He just sort of envelops 00:44:58.460 --> 00:45:01.059 them in the bark and is going to try to kill 00:45:01.059 --> 00:45:03.539 them as far as we can tell. So two of them are 00:45:03.539 --> 00:45:06.579 not. Frodo and Sam are the ones that are out 00:45:06.579 --> 00:45:10.119 loose and they don't know what to do. So in desperation, 00:45:10.360 --> 00:45:12.099 they literally just start running around in a 00:45:12.099 --> 00:45:14.139 bent and a haunted forest screaming for help 00:45:14.139 --> 00:45:15.980 from someone that they have no reason to believe 00:45:15.980 --> 00:45:18.840 is there. Then here comes some dude bebopping 00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:23.159 down the trail literally And he is an outlandish 00:45:23.159 --> 00:45:24.880 character. He's one of Tolkien's more mysterious 00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:29.420 and unusual ones and he really feels When you 00:45:29.420 --> 00:45:31.260 first meet him, he really feels like he stepped 00:45:31.260 --> 00:45:35.360 in from another story He's got his you know, 00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:38.099 his yellow boots his blue hat. Correct me if 00:45:38.099 --> 00:45:42.460 I'm wrong on any of these colors And he is out 00:45:42.460 --> 00:45:46.000 gathering water lilies for his wife Who is named 00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:49.219 Goldberry and he's whistling his way along and 00:45:49.219 --> 00:45:52.420 they call for help and when he arrives You know, 00:45:52.420 --> 00:45:54.400 they they tell him what the problem is this old 00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:56.760 man Willow, which they don't know They said the 00:45:56.760 --> 00:45:58.460 trees, you know trees gobbling up our buddies 00:45:58.460 --> 00:46:01.159 They're stuck inside and everything that we've 00:46:01.159 --> 00:46:03.840 attempted to do can't can't work. Maybe it's 00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:06.780 a blue coat Not a blue hat yellow hat. It's a 00:46:06.780 --> 00:46:08.800 his boots are yellow boots are yellow. I said 00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:13.920 that Blue coat. Blue coat, okay. So anyway, very 00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:15.900 brightly colored, outlandish fellow, comes singing 00:46:15.900 --> 00:46:18.659 down the trail in the middle of a haunted forest. 00:46:18.780 --> 00:46:20.539 Why would this guy be in such a good mood in 00:46:20.539 --> 00:46:22.880 a haunted forest? So he's gathering up water 00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:24.619 lilies for Goldberry, and they tell him what's 00:46:24.619 --> 00:46:27.440 going on, and he responds by saying, ah, old 00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:32.590 man Willow, I have the song for him. And so Tom's 00:46:32.590 --> 00:46:36.250 magic, which becomes, it is used a few different 00:46:36.250 --> 00:46:38.750 times, seems to be primarily based on singing 00:46:38.750 --> 00:46:42.690 specific songs. And it doesn't appear to be the 00:46:42.690 --> 00:46:44.889 case that if the hobbits knew the song, that 00:46:44.889 --> 00:46:46.510 they would be able to have dominion over the 00:46:46.510 --> 00:46:48.429 swillow, but Tom does, and the method that he 00:46:48.429 --> 00:46:53.110 uses is his songs. So he saves them from that, 00:46:53.130 --> 00:46:56.840 and then... Later, after they stay with him for 00:46:56.840 --> 00:46:58.800 a bit, then they head off on their journey. They 00:46:58.800 --> 00:47:01.760 have to pass near a dangerous place and they 00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:05.639 get off track and find themselves captured by 00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:08.039 whites, which is a kind of an old fashioned term 00:47:08.039 --> 00:47:10.159 for like a ghost kind of thing. It's like an 00:47:10.159 --> 00:47:12.960 undead creature. So where they are is a large 00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:16.380 graveyard where the kings had been buried from 00:47:17.599 --> 00:47:20.639 This was Angmar, right? Yes, the North Kingdom. 00:47:20.900 --> 00:47:23.519 Yeah, which was an evil kingdom that had collapsed 00:47:23.519 --> 00:47:26.119 in the past. And it was kind of just a wasteland 00:47:26.119 --> 00:47:28.900 now. And so they had fought against the good 00:47:28.900 --> 00:47:30.519 guys. And this is kind of a reference to what 00:47:30.519 --> 00:47:32.559 you were talking about. Things had degenerated. 00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:35.500 So now this used to be the epicenter of this 00:47:35.500 --> 00:47:38.739 major war between two large powers. And it's 00:47:38.739 --> 00:47:42.329 mostly woods and fields now. They get stuck in 00:47:42.329 --> 00:47:44.789 one of these and that fortunately, though, Tom 00:47:44.789 --> 00:47:46.969 had taught them a song and that if they sing 00:47:46.969 --> 00:47:49.610 the song, he will appear to help them within 00:47:49.610 --> 00:47:52.110 a certain distance of his home. And they're close 00:47:52.110 --> 00:47:54.429 enough that they call for him and he just cracks 00:47:54.429 --> 00:47:56.849 the barrel wide open, gets rid of the ghost, 00:47:57.110 --> 00:47:59.889 drags all the treasure out into the sun. And 00:47:59.889 --> 00:48:02.309 they're set on their way with brand new shiny 00:48:02.309 --> 00:48:07.030 swords of westernness. Yeah, it's the way that 00:48:07.030 --> 00:48:13.460 Tom. articulates in the material world his power 00:48:13.460 --> 00:48:17.019 is through song. Like you said, Old Man Willow, 00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:20.380 I know the song for him. And you know, Old Man 00:48:20.380 --> 00:48:22.119 Willow's fun because he sings the song and then 00:48:22.119 --> 00:48:24.239 he grabs a tree branch and whacks him a few times. 00:48:24.460 --> 00:48:27.420 And that's like, you know, sort of making sure 00:48:27.420 --> 00:48:29.380 it seeps deep into the roots. The period on the 00:48:29.380 --> 00:48:32.760 sentence, I think. And then when he, same thing 00:48:32.760 --> 00:48:36.219 with the Barrowites, right? He sings them out 00:48:36.219 --> 00:48:40.199 of a grave. right, they're in a grave. And he, 00:48:40.340 --> 00:48:43.579 using the power of his, the magic of his song, 00:48:44.119 --> 00:48:47.719 he pulls them out of a living death and sets 00:48:47.719 --> 00:48:51.840 them running, you know, in freedom. And, you 00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:54.099 know, the kids are always like, oh, a little 00:48:54.099 --> 00:48:59.639 bit, because they had been sort of regarbed to 00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:02.079 look like princes, because the Barrow White was 00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:05.190 essentially reenacting The pre the defeat that 00:49:05.190 --> 00:49:07.750 you're describing happened ages ago And so they're 00:49:07.750 --> 00:49:09.869 they've lost their clothes and he says get rid 00:49:09.869 --> 00:49:12.210 of those dead man's clothes So they they actually 00:49:12.210 --> 00:49:14.469 run naked for a while while he goes and finds 00:49:14.469 --> 00:49:16.550 their packs and their ponies Which have wandered 00:49:16.550 --> 00:49:18.650 off and then they get you know, they get redressed 00:49:18.650 --> 00:49:20.610 but for a while I mean, there's a there's a real 00:49:20.610 --> 00:49:24.949 picture of new life and innocence and freedom 00:49:24.949 --> 00:49:29.090 That's and you know, a lot of like Edenic imagery 00:49:29.090 --> 00:49:31.590 right and so that does weird people out, you 00:49:31.590 --> 00:49:34.480 know Who's the only people in society? that it's 00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:36.780 acceptable for them to be running around naked, 00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:40.119 it's kids. They have no sense of that kind of 00:49:40.119 --> 00:49:43.699 proprietary garbing being necessary. So like 00:49:43.699 --> 00:49:45.099 a kid will hop out of the tub and run through 00:49:45.099 --> 00:49:46.599 the living room in the middle of all the company, 00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:49.219 right? Adam and Eve are naked in the garden. 00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:50.739 It's because they're both in a state of innocence. 00:49:51.340 --> 00:49:54.579 So like it is, particularly in a very sexualized 00:49:54.579 --> 00:49:57.119 culture like ours, people running around naked 00:49:57.119 --> 00:49:59.840 is something to raise an eyebrow against. But 00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:01.460 what Tolkien's doing is saying they're kind of 00:50:01.460 --> 00:50:04.039 in a state of innocence. Right. They've they've 00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:06.079 and they really are childlike throughout that 00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:08.980 entire episode. And Lord of the Rings in many 00:50:08.980 --> 00:50:10.840 ways is a coming of age story as they as they 00:50:10.840 --> 00:50:14.480 sort of mature into from childlike naivete into 00:50:14.480 --> 00:50:18.519 the kind of manhood that that Tolkien. Yeah. 00:50:18.519 --> 00:50:20.380 Which is often symbolized by what they're wearing. 00:50:20.619 --> 00:50:25.219 Yeah. They can scourge the Shire. But to get 00:50:25.219 --> 00:50:28.280 back to music. Right. So so all throughout the 00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:32.230 Lord of the Rings. music plays a significant 00:50:32.230 --> 00:50:34.829 role and to get back to the original thesis i 00:50:34.829 --> 00:50:38.230 think we've covered well the idea of sort of 00:50:38.230 --> 00:50:40.690 the metaphysical reality that we live in and 00:50:40.690 --> 00:50:43.570 that is inescapable but then again to get back 00:50:43.570 --> 00:50:45.070 to practical application what does that mean 00:50:45.070 --> 00:50:48.409 for us it's a it's combat right like this is 00:50:48.409 --> 00:50:51.309 how you fight how do you fight when paul tells 00:50:51.309 --> 00:50:53.590 us that our fight is against flesh and blood 00:50:53.590 --> 00:50:56.570 it's against principalities powers how do you 00:50:56.570 --> 00:50:59.969 fight an immaterial being. How do you fight against 00:50:59.969 --> 00:51:04.989 the supernatural forces? There's several answers 00:51:04.989 --> 00:51:09.070 to that question, but music, I think, has got 00:51:09.070 --> 00:51:10.849 to become part of the conversation. It's too 00:51:10.849 --> 00:51:13.650 neglected. It's too neglected. We have reduced 00:51:13.650 --> 00:51:20.929 it to that it has all of these wonderful effects 00:51:20.929 --> 00:51:25.380 on the individual. It's all internalized. And 00:51:25.380 --> 00:51:27.960 subjective. And subjective. But when you're in 00:51:27.960 --> 00:51:31.079 a combat situation, you know, the individual 00:51:31.079 --> 00:51:33.880 is important, but the unit is important, right? 00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:39.500 The entire division is important, and the opposing 00:51:39.500 --> 00:51:43.980 division is the object of our ire. That's what 00:51:43.980 --> 00:51:48.360 we're trying to destroy. And so we have to externalize 00:51:48.360 --> 00:51:50.679 these principles and understand that there's 00:51:50.679 --> 00:51:53.300 a real combat, there's a real battle. And if 00:51:53.300 --> 00:51:57.800 we don't arm ourselves using the sort of created 00:51:57.800 --> 00:52:00.019 divine principles that the Lord has baked into 00:52:00.019 --> 00:52:02.619 his creation, we're selling ourselves short. 00:52:02.739 --> 00:52:05.539 You know, I wonder, so we in the church, we have, 00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:07.099 I think we like to think that we have a better 00:52:07.099 --> 00:52:09.519 grasp of the power of music because of our emphasis 00:52:09.519 --> 00:52:13.219 on true lyrics, which is not nothing. Yeah, very 00:52:13.219 --> 00:52:17.500 important. And so it's not merely about the feels, 00:52:18.260 --> 00:52:21.619 but because of our distrust of emotion. at least 00:52:21.619 --> 00:52:24.840 in our tradition, I think that we tend to maybe, 00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:26.800 and I don't want to say overemphasize the trueness 00:52:26.800 --> 00:52:28.980 of the lyrics, but there is, it seems like a 00:52:28.980 --> 00:52:33.260 premium on the effect of the music on us, like 00:52:33.260 --> 00:52:36.440 on the physiological, like on the emotional level 00:52:36.440 --> 00:52:39.019 is de -emphasized, probably to our detriment 00:52:39.019 --> 00:52:42.460 maybe. Well, I think we would also say that the 00:52:42.460 --> 00:52:45.239 experience or the power of music, the way Joe's 00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:47.820 talking about can't be reduced either to rationality 00:52:47.820 --> 00:52:51.139 or Emotionalism right it comprehends both but 00:52:51.139 --> 00:52:52.739 does more. Yeah. Well, that's kind of what I'm 00:52:52.739 --> 00:52:54.780 getting at right So this it reminds me a little 00:52:54.780 --> 00:52:57.159 bit of you know, you're talking about it as warfare 00:52:57.159 --> 00:52:59.500 So we're thinking in weapons terms and it reminds 00:52:59.500 --> 00:53:03.619 me of a scene from dances with wolves where Late 00:53:03.619 --> 00:53:06.179 in the movie Kevin Costner has befriended this 00:53:06.179 --> 00:53:08.760 Indian tribe and it's become clear that an Indian 00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:11.619 enemy tribe is going to attack While most of 00:53:11.619 --> 00:53:14.460 the Braves are off doing something else And so 00:53:14.460 --> 00:53:16.659 he makes a decision to arm the ones that were 00:53:16.659 --> 00:53:19.599 left behind with lever action rifles, which they 00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:23.199 had not had access to. So he gives them the guns 00:53:23.199 --> 00:53:26.340 and then they lay in wait for the enemy to attack. 00:53:26.380 --> 00:53:28.900 And when the enemy finally shows up, they all 00:53:28.900 --> 00:53:30.820 rush out and start clubbing the enemies with 00:53:30.820 --> 00:53:35.659 these rifles. And so I'm wondering if Christians 00:53:35.659 --> 00:53:37.380 are thinking of music in this turn. It's like 00:53:37.380 --> 00:53:40.679 you pick up this weapon that you can use. And 00:53:40.679 --> 00:53:42.199 you're looking at it going, well, this is a great 00:53:42.199 --> 00:53:45.199 club when really it's a gun that you should be 00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:47.480 firing. You know, like you just need to, we need 00:53:47.480 --> 00:53:49.980 to use it to its fullest potential. I think there 00:53:49.980 --> 00:53:52.139 is so much truth in what you're saying because 00:53:52.139 --> 00:53:56.300 you look at the state of worship and the church 00:53:56.300 --> 00:54:00.139 culture and you look, they are using the hip 00:54:00.139 --> 00:54:03.099 hop tactics now. It's bigger, better, flashy. 00:54:03.940 --> 00:54:07.079 It's got the baselines. It's got the drums. It's 00:54:07.079 --> 00:54:08.980 got everything else. They're using elements. 00:54:10.410 --> 00:54:15.570 that the secular folks have found power in and 00:54:15.570 --> 00:54:19.269 trying to reapply that to Christianity. Well, 00:54:19.289 --> 00:54:23.250 a lot of it's mechanistic. And so, it's not just 00:54:23.250 --> 00:54:26.969 kind of tapping into the wrong side of the spiritual 00:54:26.969 --> 00:54:31.329 force, but this chord progression is going to 00:54:31.329 --> 00:54:34.309 make the person hearing it feel something when 00:54:34.309 --> 00:54:37.050 I then change it with this one particular chord. 00:54:38.789 --> 00:54:41.489 It's again, it's just counterfeiting. It's the 00:54:41.489 --> 00:54:43.750 pagan drums versus... Well, it's very enlightenment, 00:54:44.030 --> 00:54:45.889 right? Like the scientific method has revealed 00:54:45.889 --> 00:54:49.349 that this chord progression elicits this response. 00:54:49.570 --> 00:54:52.650 Yes, exactly. It's back to that hyper materialist 00:54:52.650 --> 00:54:57.650 project. And so again, I mean, I think I'm very 00:54:57.650 --> 00:55:01.030 well on the record about I want church songs 00:55:01.030 --> 00:55:03.969 to be doctrinally rich and scriptural. I think 00:55:03.969 --> 00:55:07.019 that's... A minimum necessary qualification. 00:55:07.179 --> 00:55:10.000 Right. That's not all it needs to be. And it 00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:14.380 should be structurally very lovely. And the instrumentation 00:55:14.380 --> 00:55:17.960 should be well performed. Those things are important. 00:55:18.699 --> 00:55:22.079 Non -negotiably important. But nonetheless, we 00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:23.920 would say that there's something beyond even 00:55:23.920 --> 00:55:27.619 that recipe. The way you said earlier, something 00:55:27.619 --> 00:55:30.710 greater emerges from that. than just can be explained 00:55:30.710 --> 00:55:33.289 by the sum of the parts. Yeah. And, you know, 00:55:33.289 --> 00:55:35.690 for the listener who's frustrated, like, that's 00:55:35.690 --> 00:55:40.110 fine, tell me what it is. To do so would be almost 00:55:40.110 --> 00:55:42.530 to transgress the very nature of what we're talking 00:55:42.530 --> 00:55:45.690 about, because it's not materialist in its nature. 00:55:45.949 --> 00:55:48.170 It cannot be, it's not the kind of thing that 00:55:48.170 --> 00:55:53.090 you can quantify. But I know it when I see it, 00:55:53.190 --> 00:55:55.250 or maybe when I hear it, right? When you feel 00:55:55.250 --> 00:56:04.000 it. Or when you're caught up by it. It's what 00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:06.719 the architects of the medieval period were trying 00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:08.960 to do in the Renaissance. It's what they were 00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:11.980 trying to do with cathedrals. What am I trying 00:56:11.980 --> 00:56:18.039 to do? I'm trying in a limited way with the materials 00:56:18.039 --> 00:56:23.179 that God has given me using the reason that I 00:56:23.179 --> 00:56:26.489 have. and the aesthetic understanding of God's 00:56:26.489 --> 00:56:29.869 creation that I have. I'm trying to catch the 00:56:29.869 --> 00:56:33.329 people who walk into this building up into the 00:56:33.329 --> 00:56:39.449 transcendent glory of the omnipresent, omniscient, 00:56:39.769 --> 00:56:43.349 omnipotent creator. And that will always, as 00:56:43.349 --> 00:56:46.530 created beings who are sub -creating, there will 00:56:46.530 --> 00:56:49.630 always be a limitation to what we can do in relationship 00:56:49.630 --> 00:56:55.260 to what our God can do. But The chief aim is 00:56:55.260 --> 00:56:59.920 a transcendent universality that even if you 00:56:59.920 --> 00:57:02.719 had never been, if you're not a son or daughter 00:57:02.719 --> 00:57:05.559 of the West and you have no idea what this cathedral 00:57:05.559 --> 00:57:09.699 is or what it's for, when you walk into it, it 00:57:09.699 --> 00:57:14.199 still has an effect on you that is universal. 00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:16.719 And outside of you. And outside of you. And music 00:57:16.719 --> 00:57:20.000 is even better at that than buildings are. Take 00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:23.440 someone like Jacob Collier. I mean, I talked 00:57:23.440 --> 00:57:25.679 to a friend of mine who went to his concert recently 00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:29.639 in Nashville, and he's like, you just experience 00:57:29.639 --> 00:57:34.420 a connection to something bigger than you. And 00:57:34.420 --> 00:57:37.360 even though that wasn't Christ -centered, I mean, 00:57:37.380 --> 00:57:40.519 it still has an effect. And they still have mastery 00:57:40.519 --> 00:57:43.119 of those tools. Right. Still using the same power 00:57:43.119 --> 00:57:45.980 source. Yeah. And you've made this point repeatedly 00:57:45.980 --> 00:57:50.079 in the past, Jason, which is that Satan is the 00:57:50.079 --> 00:57:53.820 master musician. Right? What is his role as the 00:57:53.820 --> 00:57:57.420 preeminent angel of light in the heavenly hosts? 00:57:57.739 --> 00:57:59.940 I mean, he's described as being made of musical 00:57:59.940 --> 00:58:04.659 instruments. The access to the knowledge of the 00:58:04.659 --> 00:58:07.480 power of music. I mean, you know he has that 00:58:07.480 --> 00:58:12.420 because he did that on a heavenly level. So we 00:58:12.420 --> 00:58:16.820 can only imagine the yet untapped resources that 00:58:16.820 --> 00:58:19.510 he's about to. because he's about to pull out 00:58:19.510 --> 00:58:21.949 all the stops. Well, and our enemy has had thousands 00:58:21.949 --> 00:58:26.650 of years to take that expertise and use it for 00:58:26.650 --> 00:58:30.949 nefarious purposes in God's creation. He's very 00:58:30.949 --> 00:58:33.250 good at what he does. Which gives us things like 00:58:33.250 --> 00:58:36.789 pagans preparing human sacrifice, playing music 00:58:36.789 --> 00:58:41.389 to set the vibe, to establish the right atmosphere 00:58:41.389 --> 00:58:44.289 for something so heinous to be done, or to consume 00:58:44.289 --> 00:58:48.110 another human being, right? Like rituals. are 00:58:48.110 --> 00:58:51.670 musically connected. It's because Satan knows 00:58:51.670 --> 00:58:54.849 what music does. Our language informs us. What 00:58:54.849 --> 00:59:00.230 is a chant? We understand chanting as a sort 00:59:00.230 --> 00:59:07.469 of rhythmic, quasi -musical expression of whatever. 00:59:07.909 --> 00:59:11.429 Bringing you into an enchanted state. What does 00:59:11.429 --> 00:59:13.250 it mean to be enchanted? We're talking about 00:59:13.250 --> 00:59:16.820 magic here. We're talking about something that 00:59:16.820 --> 00:59:22.519 is metaphysical in its nature. It's a bridging 00:59:22.519 --> 00:59:28.320 of the two worlds. And the forces of darkness, 00:59:28.519 --> 00:59:32.579 they're very comfortable with that understanding 00:59:32.579 --> 00:59:37.179 of music. You're talking about practical fronts 00:59:37.179 --> 00:59:41.619 on this. I said it on our previous recording. 00:59:41.929 --> 00:59:44.150 You would think a preacher is kind of immune 00:59:44.150 --> 00:59:46.110 to this, but on a Lord's Day corporate worship, 00:59:46.289 --> 00:59:48.250 I'll often come into corporate worship feeling 00:59:48.250 --> 00:59:52.369 quite spiritually dead. And it is the experience 00:59:52.369 --> 00:59:56.110 of singing with the church and often hearing 00:59:56.110 --> 01:00:00.750 the church sing that re -provokes and cultivates 01:00:00.750 --> 01:00:04.349 within me a zeal for the Lord. And so I would 01:00:04.349 --> 01:00:07.590 tell you, you know, on a Lord's Day, You need 01:00:07.590 --> 01:00:09.750 to be able to hear the people singing with you. 01:00:09.750 --> 01:00:11.349 You don't need to just be hearing what's coming 01:00:11.349 --> 01:00:13.929 off the stage. Like the singing of the people 01:00:13.929 --> 01:00:16.269 has a real spiritual impact upon you. It's pleasing 01:00:16.269 --> 01:00:19.289 to the Lord. But as I tell our church often, 01:00:20.010 --> 01:00:22.250 the New Testament twice tells us that we actually 01:00:22.250 --> 01:00:23.949 minister to each other. We encourage each other. 01:00:24.030 --> 01:00:25.389 We admonish one another. And those things aren't 01:00:25.389 --> 01:00:29.030 just rational. They go beyond the rational component 01:00:29.030 --> 01:00:32.630 that's inherently there. Practically though, 01:00:32.769 --> 01:00:35.090 too, Terry and I very lamentably recently had 01:00:35.090 --> 01:00:37.949 a chance to be in a place that quite possibly 01:00:37.949 --> 01:00:42.610 had a track record of spiritual darkness. And 01:00:42.610 --> 01:00:46.710 so, we had went to that place, and what we did, 01:00:46.730 --> 01:00:48.730 because of what we had available to us, is we 01:00:48.730 --> 01:00:51.690 prayed, right? But the one thing I think we would 01:00:51.690 --> 01:00:54.070 both agree, and we've even talked about, if my 01:00:54.070 --> 01:00:57.110 memory serves, is if we get a chance to go back, 01:00:57.389 --> 01:00:59.489 we're going to sing Psalms. We're going to sing 01:00:59.489 --> 01:01:03.309 hymns. We're going to, you know, to borrow from 01:01:03.309 --> 01:01:06.519 N .D. Wilson, pollute the darkness. And there's 01:01:06.519 --> 01:01:08.980 something, again, who's going to belittle prayer? 01:01:10.380 --> 01:01:12.480 And songs can be prayers. I think there's something 01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:16.460 very common between the two forms. But I do think 01:01:16.460 --> 01:01:19.280 that there's something with the singing of truth, 01:01:19.500 --> 01:01:23.440 God's truth, God's word, that goes beyond merely 01:01:23.440 --> 01:01:28.099 the recitation of truth. As vital as that is, 01:01:28.099 --> 01:01:30.500 I don't want to do anything to limit that. But 01:01:30.500 --> 01:01:33.480 these are the kind of things that Jared Moore, 01:01:33.679 --> 01:01:35.460 right? So, he was on the previous episode of 01:01:35.460 --> 01:01:38.239 the podcast. He's written a book to help people 01:01:38.239 --> 01:01:40.619 experience the breaking of the power of lust 01:01:40.619 --> 01:01:42.559 in their life. And one of the brilliant parts 01:01:42.559 --> 01:01:45.019 of the book is that there's all this cognitive 01:01:45.019 --> 01:01:48.260 data, all this rich material of Scripture filling 01:01:48.260 --> 01:01:51.860 your brain with the thoughts of God. But at the 01:01:51.860 --> 01:01:53.760 end of the book, too, there's a song for you 01:01:53.760 --> 01:01:57.119 to sing and listen to, you know, during that 01:01:57.119 --> 01:02:00.599 period of studying in that chapter. Because it 01:02:00.599 --> 01:02:03.159 is something like a rifle that's not just reducible 01:02:03.159 --> 01:02:06.340 to a club It does something different and it 01:02:06.340 --> 01:02:08.179 does something that's very important and I think 01:02:08.179 --> 01:02:10.679 he's really wise to frame it that way Yeah, I 01:02:10.679 --> 01:02:13.360 agree. I agree that that's where I was going 01:02:13.360 --> 01:02:15.440 with as far as again just continue with application 01:02:15.440 --> 01:02:20.239 like listener if you're you're dealing with or 01:02:20.239 --> 01:02:26.519 battling some kind of sin or An uncharitable 01:02:26.519 --> 01:02:32.150 ungrateful disposition You're dealing with anger 01:02:32.150 --> 01:02:36.909 and resentment in your relationships. You need 01:02:36.909 --> 01:02:39.989 to sing. You need to sing more. David is the 01:02:39.989 --> 01:02:42.670 perfect example of this. What is his constant 01:02:42.670 --> 01:02:47.630 go -to when he finds himself in places of distress? 01:02:48.030 --> 01:02:54.269 It is the myctams, the golden themes that are 01:02:54.269 --> 01:02:57.619 composed in the Psalms. And again, just to reiterate, 01:02:58.019 --> 01:03:01.400 I think it's more than just an emotional shot 01:03:01.400 --> 01:03:04.940 in the arm. I think it's something deeper. Now, 01:03:05.000 --> 01:03:06.260 Jason's trying to get me to read it, but it was 01:03:06.260 --> 01:03:07.980 his point earlier, so I won't insist he does. 01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:14.260 No, no. But it was just in 1 Samuel 1623, David's 01:03:14.260 --> 01:03:17.719 heart playing is described not just to soothe 01:03:17.719 --> 01:03:21.320 Saul emotionally, but it actively forced it. 01:03:21.389 --> 01:03:23.449 the evil spirit that was installed to depart. 01:03:23.809 --> 01:03:27.110 It's combat! I'm telling you, it's a martial 01:03:27.110 --> 01:03:29.969 spirit! I don't know what Jason is reading from, 01:03:29.969 --> 01:03:32.969 but I can see his screen. The next sentence is 01:03:32.969 --> 01:03:36.730 really profound. It says, this demonstrates music's 01:03:36.730 --> 01:03:40.889 power to shift the spiritual territory. by replacing 01:03:40.889 --> 01:03:42.829 demonic oppression with the atmosphere of heaven. 01:03:43.190 --> 01:03:46.710 What's the language we have for one place being 01:03:46.710 --> 01:03:50.110 governed by a particular power, then being displaced 01:03:50.110 --> 01:03:53.670 by a superior power who then enforces its administration? 01:03:54.050 --> 01:03:59.150 That is conquest. That is militant conquest. 01:04:00.849 --> 01:04:04.710 Thinking pastorally and as a dad. So I have a 01:04:04.710 --> 01:04:10.179 child who is uniquely beset by fear. just a very 01:04:10.179 --> 01:04:14.619 fearful creature, beyond rationality. But then 01:04:14.619 --> 01:04:18.280 also I know people who have what could be supernatural 01:04:18.280 --> 01:04:22.119 reasons to fear. So people who have night terrors. 01:04:22.119 --> 01:04:23.980 I don't know that all night terrors are something 01:04:23.980 --> 01:04:26.460 supernatural, but I'm very open to the idea that 01:04:26.460 --> 01:04:28.960 some of them are supernatural. And I do think 01:04:28.960 --> 01:04:31.380 we appropriately say pray and read the Bible 01:04:31.380 --> 01:04:33.780 and do those things too, right? But what do you 01:04:33.780 --> 01:04:35.860 do with a child who's terrified to be in a dark 01:04:35.860 --> 01:04:37.809 room? I think one of the things you should probably 01:04:37.809 --> 01:04:40.969 do is sing Come Thou Fount, Be Thou My Vision, 01:04:41.309 --> 01:04:44.429 right? Sing that. Sing some of the Psalms that 01:04:44.429 --> 01:04:46.849 have been set to music where the psalmist is 01:04:46.849 --> 01:04:48.989 afraid and begging God to intervene. Our school 01:04:48.989 --> 01:04:51.269 hymn, the second verse is, He lives to crush 01:04:51.269 --> 01:04:53.789 the fiends of hell. Glory, hallelujah. Right. 01:04:54.710 --> 01:04:58.750 So again, it's having a rifle and treating it 01:04:58.750 --> 01:05:03.789 like a club or leaving it in the holster. We 01:05:03.789 --> 01:05:07.409 just can't do that. And so Is it a magic bullet? 01:05:07.570 --> 01:05:10.030 Is it a perfect antidote? I don't really know. 01:05:10.389 --> 01:05:13.590 But when you have a problem, you shoot all the, 01:05:13.969 --> 01:05:15.710 you know, you fire all the weapons you have against 01:05:15.710 --> 01:05:18.130 it. And this is one that we just leave in the 01:05:18.130 --> 01:05:21.110 gun case. Far too often. Far too often. You know, 01:05:21.150 --> 01:05:26.469 Jason, you brought up previously that when Paul 01:05:26.469 --> 01:05:32.320 and Silas are in jail, right, they sing and There's 01:05:32.320 --> 01:05:35.179 a supernatural deliverance earthquake and the 01:05:35.179 --> 01:05:37.440 shackles fall off and the doors open So what 01:05:37.440 --> 01:05:39.480 I want to be clear about I know you guys will 01:05:39.480 --> 01:05:42.480 agree like we're not saying that if you can just 01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:45.579 be a certain Level of this is not magecraft, 01:05:45.579 --> 01:05:47.940 right? This is not a D &D campaign Well, it's 01:05:47.940 --> 01:05:50.179 similar with the Jericho situation, right? Like 01:05:50.179 --> 01:05:51.800 I've heard people say like well they screamed 01:05:51.800 --> 01:05:54.599 at the exact right pitch to crack the mortar 01:05:54.599 --> 01:06:00.019 You're missing the point. How desperate are materialists? 01:06:00.019 --> 01:06:01.519 I mean you're just missing it entirely right 01:06:01.519 --> 01:06:05.000 and and what we're not saying is like that that 01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:10.840 that economy of power is just available. Even 01:06:10.840 --> 01:06:13.260 that is kind of a materialist view, right? It's 01:06:13.260 --> 01:06:14.960 mechanistic. It's mechanistic, right? Like if 01:06:14.960 --> 01:06:17.780 I can just tap, if I can just do it rightly, 01:06:18.360 --> 01:06:21.519 then I can achieve certain levels of supernatural 01:06:21.519 --> 01:06:25.679 power that they did, like as if I was leveling 01:06:25.679 --> 01:06:28.440 up in a D &D campaign. Like that's not what we're 01:06:28.440 --> 01:06:30.079 talking about. And get the Tom Bombadil spell 01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:32.960 book. Yeah, right. It's not witchcraft. It's 01:06:32.960 --> 01:06:34.300 not, it's not witchcraft. And it's not Mario 01:06:34.300 --> 01:06:37.019 snacking on a fire flower. Right, exactly. So 01:06:37.019 --> 01:06:39.780 that's not what we're describing. But nevertheless, 01:06:40.500 --> 01:06:42.860 what all of those stories illustrate is that 01:06:42.860 --> 01:06:49.159 there is some kind of wedding between what we 01:06:49.159 --> 01:06:52.300 understand as music and song, and also what we 01:06:52.300 --> 01:06:57.300 understand as supernatural power. And when we 01:06:57.300 --> 01:07:00.320 deny that those things are as intertwined as 01:07:00.320 --> 01:07:02.460 I think scripture makes it clear that they are, 01:07:03.019 --> 01:07:08.110 then we are not availing ourselves. of the natural 01:07:08.110 --> 01:07:11.989 resource in the supernatural well, the infinite 01:07:11.989 --> 01:07:14.849 well that you've described, that is available 01:07:14.849 --> 01:07:17.090 to every believer because they have been indwelled 01:07:17.090 --> 01:07:19.610 with the Holy Spirit, right? Again, if you find 01:07:19.610 --> 01:07:21.630 yourself locked up for your faith, I'm not saying 01:07:21.630 --> 01:07:23.210 that if you sing, the locks are going to snap 01:07:23.210 --> 01:07:25.130 open. But you should sing. But you should sing 01:07:25.130 --> 01:07:29.289 anyway. You should sing. And you will claim ground. 01:07:29.650 --> 01:07:33.329 You will conquer, even if it is just that five 01:07:33.329 --> 01:07:36.650 -by -five jail cell. you will claim ground for 01:07:36.650 --> 01:07:39.349 the kingdom of God. Even over your own unbelief, 01:07:39.469 --> 01:07:41.369 the temptation to believe God's not good because 01:07:41.369 --> 01:07:43.429 of what you're suffering like, there's a lot 01:07:43.429 --> 01:07:45.710 of this. And what would be, so if we're treating 01:07:45.710 --> 01:07:49.030 music as an instrument, I know music involves 01:07:49.030 --> 01:07:51.969 instrumentation most often. I don't mean it in 01:07:51.969 --> 01:07:54.449 that way, but if music is an instrument the Lord 01:07:54.449 --> 01:07:55.809 has provided for us people, what's the right 01:07:55.809 --> 01:07:58.250 usage? What's the humbly go to the one who created 01:07:58.250 --> 01:07:59.969 the instrument and empowers the instrument and 01:07:59.969 --> 01:08:02.710 saying, I'm going to use this ultimately trusting 01:08:02.710 --> 01:08:04.510 you to work out whatever your good providence 01:08:04.510 --> 01:08:07.590 is, sort of in the same way of the Hebrew use 01:08:07.590 --> 01:08:10.610 thrown into the fiery furnace, right? Like, we're 01:08:10.610 --> 01:08:13.909 going to do what's appropriate to be done. You 01:08:13.909 --> 01:08:15.409 know, it would be wonderful if the Lord would 01:08:15.409 --> 01:08:18.250 choose to use this to deliver us, but it doesn't 01:08:18.250 --> 01:08:19.989 matter. I'm still just going to do what's right. 01:08:20.510 --> 01:08:22.909 And so, like, get the thing out of the holster 01:08:22.909 --> 01:08:25.289 and put it to use and see what the Lord's pleased 01:08:25.289 --> 01:08:28.770 to do with it. Yeah. That's the best way to articulate 01:08:28.770 --> 01:08:33.220 that. And I think that we won't do that, or at 01:08:33.220 --> 01:08:36.899 least we'll have a hard time doing that until 01:08:36.899 --> 01:08:41.840 we reclaim and reshape our understanding of music 01:08:41.840 --> 01:08:45.720 to be more than just instruction, more than just 01:08:45.720 --> 01:08:52.220 emotional correction or inspiration. Again, I 01:08:52.220 --> 01:08:53.880 think you said earlier, it comprehends those 01:08:53.880 --> 01:08:59.199 things, but it is over, under, Around and through 01:08:59.199 --> 01:09:02.079 those things right it is it is the Lutherans 01:09:02.079 --> 01:09:13.520 listening are very encouraged Next week So I 01:09:13.520 --> 01:09:15.899 don't know if that was convincing to you listener 01:09:15.899 --> 01:09:18.800 I don't want to also prematurely close if people 01:09:18.800 --> 01:09:22.819 have other thoughts, but I'm deeply interested 01:09:22.819 --> 01:09:27.279 in a recovery of and classical and medieval understanding 01:09:27.279 --> 01:09:33.199 of music. Among other things. Yeah, because there's 01:09:33.199 --> 01:09:37.619 a single -mindedness, a Greek mindset that we've 01:09:37.619 --> 01:09:39.619 adopted. And I've mentioned it in previous podcasts, 01:09:39.920 --> 01:09:43.439 too. But the Hebrews are very dualistic in their 01:09:43.439 --> 01:09:47.510 thinking. ebbed and flowed between the spiritual 01:09:47.510 --> 01:09:49.510 and the physical and the spiritual and the physical. 01:09:49.930 --> 01:09:52.909 And they understood that there was a direct correlation 01:09:52.909 --> 01:09:55.430 between the two and direct interaction between 01:09:55.430 --> 01:10:00.149 the two. And I think we have done the opposite. 01:10:00.210 --> 01:10:03.369 We've gone back to the Greek mindset and we explain 01:10:03.369 --> 01:10:07.229 everything in the physical by the physical. We 01:10:07.229 --> 01:10:10.430 don't take into account the whole spiritual realm. 01:10:11.949 --> 01:10:13.970 Even though we subconsciously acknowledge that 01:10:13.970 --> 01:10:17.180 it is there, Right, so if you ask every Christian 01:10:17.180 --> 01:10:19.880 that you... Well, a believer would also explicitly 01:10:19.880 --> 01:10:22.739 affirm it. Right, that's what I mean. The disconnect 01:10:22.739 --> 01:10:26.039 is in our own personal thinking through and acting 01:10:26.039 --> 01:10:29.439 through the faith. Right. That's right. You know, 01:10:29.720 --> 01:10:32.279 we are people that have absolutely no problem 01:10:32.279 --> 01:10:34.359 when the atheist comes and says, you really think 01:10:34.359 --> 01:10:37.539 a donkey tonked one time? Yeah. You really think 01:10:37.539 --> 01:10:40.300 a snake in a garden spoke? Yeah. You think a 01:10:40.300 --> 01:10:42.579 man walked out of his own grave? You better believe 01:10:42.579 --> 01:10:46.130 it. Seriously, you better believe that, right? 01:10:46.189 --> 01:10:49.409 We have no problem where the Bible makes explicit 01:10:49.409 --> 01:10:54.569 supernatural claims. Even the most, you know, 01:10:54.770 --> 01:10:57.130 I should probably temper my thoughts. There's 01:10:57.130 --> 01:10:59.350 kind of a shift to reinterpret the metaphors 01:10:59.350 --> 01:11:01.989 of the Bible. You know, everything's a metaphor 01:11:01.989 --> 01:11:04.289 now. But generally speaking, Christians still, 01:11:04.329 --> 01:11:07.010 even in 25, they're very comfortable with the 01:11:07.010 --> 01:11:08.989 supernatural elements of Scripture as they are 01:11:08.989 --> 01:11:12.020 explicitly laid out in Scripture. And then when 01:11:12.020 --> 01:11:14.199 it comes to understanding the Christian faith 01:11:14.199 --> 01:11:16.939 and daily practice, it's just totally divorced. 01:11:17.260 --> 01:11:19.100 I want you to explain to me one thing that's 01:11:19.100 --> 01:11:22.239 not spiritual about this statement. A virgin 01:11:22.239 --> 01:11:26.359 birth, God coming to earth, who died on the cross, 01:11:26.659 --> 01:11:31.539 taking the wrath of our sins, He rose, and then 01:11:31.539 --> 01:11:36.300 we expect Him to come back. That is the cornerstone 01:11:36.300 --> 01:11:40.449 of all of our spiritual hopes. It's all supernatural. 01:11:40.890 --> 01:11:46.210 Absolutely. Well, and there are like anti -intellectual 01:11:46.210 --> 01:11:49.430 fruit loop poofs out there who would do a version 01:11:49.430 --> 01:11:51.590 of this, but Christians are the only ones who 01:11:51.590 --> 01:11:54.630 can do it as thinking people. Yes. That Louis 01:11:54.630 --> 01:11:57.750 was really helpful to me on this front. In his 01:11:57.750 --> 01:12:01.050 ransom trilogy, he goes to another planet and 01:12:01.050 --> 01:12:03.710 he encounters these bubble trees where when he 01:12:03.710 --> 01:12:05.550 bumps into one of the bubbles produced by the 01:12:05.550 --> 01:12:08.880 tree, he comes away reinvigorated. And that sounds 01:12:08.880 --> 01:12:12.539 so sci -fi and so out there and esoteric, right? 01:12:13.680 --> 01:12:16.979 We see an apple tree as a magical thing. What's 01:12:16.979 --> 01:12:20.239 an apple tree? It's a magical thing because it 01:12:20.239 --> 01:12:22.859 grows this thing that gives us life and it's 01:12:22.859 --> 01:12:26.539 a delight to eat. It's not reducible to, well, 01:12:27.159 --> 01:12:29.760 over eons of history, it evolved the ability 01:12:29.760 --> 01:12:33.239 to produce its fruit in such a way that other 01:12:33.239 --> 01:12:35.119 creatures would consume it and carry it and distribute 01:12:35.119 --> 01:12:38.250 the seed through their feces. God made a world 01:12:38.250 --> 01:12:42.250 where trees grow fruit that give you life. It's 01:12:42.250 --> 01:12:45.329 a magical world. When you are articulating the 01:12:45.329 --> 01:12:47.170 materialist explanation of an apple tree, I throw 01:12:47.170 --> 01:12:51.090 up in my mouth a little bit. It's so ridiculous. 01:12:52.470 --> 01:12:54.449 The magical explanation actually makes sense 01:12:54.449 --> 01:12:55.670 of the thing, and Christians are the only ones 01:12:55.670 --> 01:12:58.329 who can do it intellectually, without denying 01:12:58.329 --> 01:13:02.569 some core component of human existence. Indy 01:13:02.569 --> 01:13:04.029 Wilson's kind of famous, like, we really live 01:13:04.029 --> 01:13:07.649 in a world where a bug crawls on a tree, makes 01:13:07.649 --> 01:13:11.689 itself a sleeping bag, and then comes out a butterfly, 01:13:12.149 --> 01:13:14.630 right? Like, this is a magical world. And it's 01:13:14.630 --> 01:13:19.109 because it's not just stuff. God interlaces the 01:13:19.109 --> 01:13:23.590 mundane with the supernatural and sees no problem 01:13:23.590 --> 01:13:27.689 wedding them very inseparably in all of our daily 01:13:27.689 --> 01:13:30.310 experiences. Yeah. In a conversation recently, 01:13:30.329 --> 01:13:32.630 I had with my brother -in -law talking about 01:13:32.630 --> 01:13:35.010 not necessarily this specific topic, but just 01:13:35.010 --> 01:13:37.699 more generally about the materialist and the 01:13:37.699 --> 01:13:40.079 spiritual and how Christians, kind of exactly 01:13:40.079 --> 01:13:41.420 what you just articulated, how Christians are 01:13:41.420 --> 01:13:45.619 the only ones who can reasonably make sense of 01:13:45.619 --> 01:13:49.460 these things. I was talking about, you know, 01:13:49.600 --> 01:13:52.140 in the current understanding we typically think 01:13:52.140 --> 01:13:54.699 of the material world and the spiritual world 01:13:54.699 --> 01:13:59.619 as being kingdoms separated by a chasm, and that 01:13:59.619 --> 01:14:03.520 occasionally, in very specific instances, God 01:14:03.520 --> 01:14:06.750 builds a bridge and then because of his divine 01:14:06.750 --> 01:14:10.369 purposes will either, you know, obviously in 01:14:10.369 --> 01:14:12.449 the incarnation, we have the ultimate expression 01:14:12.449 --> 01:14:16.229 of this, but in lesser senses, you know, angel, 01:14:16.350 --> 01:14:18.609 angelic messengers and miracles, donkey talking, 01:14:18.770 --> 01:14:22.130 right? Like there's just, there are like these 01:14:22.130 --> 01:14:25.850 singular instances in history where the two kingdoms 01:14:25.850 --> 01:14:30.609 are bridged by God's divine will, right? And 01:14:30.609 --> 01:14:33.279 I think that that's fundamentally flawed. That's 01:14:33.279 --> 01:14:35.100 not the way that these two things work. That 01:14:35.100 --> 01:14:37.899 it's much more like the shore of a beach where 01:14:37.899 --> 01:14:41.640 the water and the sand, the shoreline is, which 01:14:41.640 --> 01:14:44.439 is constantly ebbing and flowing. Sometimes the 01:14:44.439 --> 01:14:46.760 wave comes in big. Right. But they're always 01:14:46.760 --> 01:14:50.659 connected. They're never disconnected. There 01:14:50.659 --> 01:15:01.300 is an overlap and an interaction. that you can 01:15:01.300 --> 01:15:03.899 never divorce them. You can never separate the 01:15:03.899 --> 01:15:07.920 shoreline, the water and the sand. That is where 01:15:07.920 --> 01:15:10.600 the water meets the sand is by definition the 01:15:10.600 --> 01:15:13.439 shoreline. And though it moves and though it 01:15:13.439 --> 01:15:17.020 shifts, it can never by its definition ever be 01:15:17.020 --> 01:15:20.239 anything else. You know what I mean? And I think 01:15:20.239 --> 01:15:24.100 that, again, it's not a perfect metaphor, but 01:15:24.100 --> 01:15:26.760 I think that's much more closely articulates 01:15:26.760 --> 01:15:28.720 what the Bible actually presents to us about 01:15:28.720 --> 01:15:32.760 these things. and music maybe is the ultimate 01:15:32.760 --> 01:15:36.000 modality to see that. I actually think it's true 01:15:36.000 --> 01:15:38.100 in many. The most readily accessible. Exactly, 01:15:38.199 --> 01:15:40.279 exactly. I think it's actually true of our entire, 01:15:40.779 --> 01:15:43.260 now go with me listener, I think it's actually 01:15:43.260 --> 01:15:47.319 true of everything, right? That this is the power 01:15:47.319 --> 01:15:50.000 of catechesis and lots of other topics for lots 01:15:50.000 --> 01:15:52.840 of other days. But I think music is the most 01:15:52.840 --> 01:15:58.760 readily accessible, most easily understood. which 01:15:58.760 --> 01:16:00.460 is why it's so criminal that it's put on the 01:16:00.460 --> 01:16:02.460 shelf because God has put the cookies on the 01:16:02.460 --> 01:16:11.840 bottom shelf here for us. Jeff, you work on a 01:16:11.840 --> 01:16:15.359 farm. I do work on a farm. It's very cold on 01:16:15.359 --> 01:16:18.060 that farm right now, Jason. My hands are being 01:16:18.060 --> 01:16:21.699 destroyed. Do you know of anything I could do? 01:16:21.819 --> 01:16:24.609 I mean, you know, I wear gloves. but the gloves 01:16:24.609 --> 01:16:27.590 I have either don't hold any heat in them or 01:16:27.590 --> 01:16:29.449 they get saturated with water so quickly they're 01:16:29.449 --> 01:16:31.569 useless. Is there anything you know that can 01:16:31.569 --> 01:16:34.529 help me with this? Well, I've recently learned 01:16:34.529 --> 01:16:37.689 about a company called Bear Knuckles, B -E -A 01:16:37.689 --> 01:16:41.210 -R Knuckles. They have the coolest gloves that 01:16:41.210 --> 01:16:43.729 I've ever seen. They have bison hide gloves, 01:16:43.789 --> 01:16:47.069 which I'm partial to. They have cow hide gloves, 01:16:47.170 --> 01:16:49.869 which I know you're partial to. They have fabric 01:16:49.869 --> 01:16:53.470 gloves. They have mining gloves. tactical gloves, 01:16:53.710 --> 01:16:57.029 hunting gloves, they just have any type of glove 01:16:57.029 --> 01:17:00.229 that you would ever need. It started by them 01:17:00.229 --> 01:17:02.369 making rodeo gloves, so you know they're tough. 01:17:03.590 --> 01:17:05.289 Well, I mean, I appreciate you telling me the 01:17:05.289 --> 01:17:08.210 cowhide benefit there, but bison appears to be 01:17:08.210 --> 01:17:10.130 superior in everything, and so I'm assuming bison 01:17:10.130 --> 01:17:13.189 is probably better than cowhide leather. If you're 01:17:13.189 --> 01:17:15.390 going to wear those to milk, don't tell the cow 01:17:15.390 --> 01:17:17.909 that. Well, I mean, maybe that's the exact point, 01:17:17.949 --> 01:17:20.069 because I don't know a lot of people who are 01:17:20.069 --> 01:17:23.159 trying to milk a bison. Oh, yeah. We sell it 01:17:23.159 --> 01:17:29.199 by the thimble. That'd be a challenge to harvest. 01:17:29.699 --> 01:17:34.260 Yes, yes, yes. 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Well, that 01:18:12.060 --> 01:18:15.159 wraps up this episode of Men of Biscar. Listener, 01:18:15.199 --> 01:18:19.250 thank you so much for joining us. I sure got 01:18:19.250 --> 01:18:21.789 a lot out of this episode. I hope you did too. 01:18:22.409 --> 01:18:26.250 Subscribe, like, leave a comment, or even send 01:18:26.250 --> 01:18:29.810 us an email at IssacharPodcast at gmail .com. 01:18:29.970 --> 01:18:33.010 Help us to understand what type of information 01:18:33.010 --> 01:18:36.010 and what subjects best serve you, best serves 01:18:36.010 --> 01:18:38.609 the kingdom. And thanks again for tuning in.