WEBVTT

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Buckle up, we have a doozy of a show for you

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today. This episode is not quite as lighthearted

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as most of our other episodes and we tackle some

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harder issues that are heavily impacting our

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society today. Sexuality, lust, desiring sin,

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being tempted by sin, striving against sinful

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desires. These are some of the topics that affect

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everyone whether they realize it or not. And

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we say some hard things that aren't being talked

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about in most religious circles. And we address

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some issues that aren't PC to discuss. We very

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well may ruffle some feathers with this one,

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but I sincerely think that we need to speak the

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truth in love. And please believe that we are

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coming from a place of love and not of anger

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or spite. And I trust these three other gentlemen

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that are gathered for this discussion. And I

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think they have been blessed with the intellect

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and understanding, and been faithful to steward

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those gifts so that they have a deep understanding

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of these subjects. So join us for this meaningful

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dialogue about some thorny subjects, and I hope

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you enjoy it as much as I did. Dr. Jared Moore,

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Terry Gant, Jeff Wright, and myself, Jason Gall,

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are striving to be men of Issacharra. And before

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we get into everything, I have a quick subject

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I want to talk about. I was raised on a farm

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and working in wholesale produce, so I know the

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value of a good pair of gloves. And I've also

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been through enough pairs of gloves that I can

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spot quality when I see it. And I've been impressed

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by a company known as Bear Knuckles, that's B

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-E -A -R Knuckles. They're about as tough as

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their name, and they have more gloves to choose

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from than I've ever seen in a glove company.

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bison leather, cowhide. It's just about any other

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style or type you can think of. From good old

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work gloves to rodeo, welding gloves, tactical

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and hunting gloves. They have so many to choose

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from. It's amazing. So follow the link in our

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description and that will help out this podcast.

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Thanks and let's get into the conversation. Welcome,

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everyone, to episode four of Men of Issachar

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podcast. We have a special guest today, Dr. Jared

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Moore. We're gonna discuss his new book, and

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let's get into it, guys. Well, if you don't mind

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if I jump in, I think if anybody's familiar with

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Dr. Moore's work, you may have heard it said

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that we've been friends for a long time. This

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is published under Coram Deo Media, which is

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something we started with the Pop Culture Coram

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Deo podcast. I've kind of famously said the first

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time I saw Jared, I hated him. I met him on a

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basketball court. I thought I was pretty good.

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I thought this guy could be better than me. Still

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not sure what the case was there. But nonetheless,

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eventually we became fast friends. And I've kind

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of followed the course of his work pretty closely,

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not just because he's my friend, but because

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I think he's one of the more important voices

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in evangelicalism nowadays and is dealing with

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a topic that... I think almost all of my adult

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life has been treated poorly, handled unhelpfully.

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And so Jared has a kind of singular helpful voice

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on this topic as well. Jared, the book's 33 Days

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to Freedom from Lust. You have a preceding book

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called Lust of the Flesh dealing with sort of

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the historic and reformed perspective on the

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sin of lust and what's healthy. Since we're talking

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about 33 days, how did this book come to be?

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So, this book, the source of it is just what

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I do in counseling with folks. In your pastoral

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ministry? Pastoral ministry. And just encouraging

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them to thank God's thoughts after Him, to show

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them that sanctification is possible, that you

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are enabled by the Holy Spirit, if you're a believer,

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to mortify particular emotions of original sin.

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in your heart, be it lust or any other sin. Now,

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the flesh in this life does have to move, but

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it doesn't have to move the same particular direction

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your whole life. Let me actually put a pause

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there, because I think in some ways, if this

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is a new conversation, maybe people don't understand

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some of the stuff we're casually referencing.

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When you're talking about the flesh, you're talking

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about fallen human nature. Yeah, fallen human

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nature. And it's going to act. When it moves,

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what you're talking about is your flesh is going

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to... seek some kind of action. Yeah, Romans

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7, your flesh is going to move in this life.

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Paul calls it sin repeatedly. And when you get

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saved, all your sin is imputed to Christ, but

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what is left in you is still morally culpable

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sin. And so, when you're aware of it, you need

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to confess it, and you need to rejoice it. Let's

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say that you have an evil impulse for something

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and you don't act on it. you should rejoice that

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you didn't act on it and you should also confess

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for having wanted to. And a lot of what's going

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on today is the Pelagian notion that it's only

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sin if you act on it. Yeah, so Pelagius is a

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bad guy. Yeah, a bad guy. He argued that basically

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it wasn't evil until you acted on it. And Roman

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Catholicism teaches that baptism takes original

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sin away. and then it is only new sin whenever

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you submit to it. But today, largely, people

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are not even arguing that Christ takes it away,

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which is what Rome would say, that through baptism,

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through the priestly order, that your original

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sin is taken away. And thus, when it creates

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new sin, you have to confess that. And they have

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a whole sacramental system. Go confess to a priest

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and do the Mass. Read the Rosary and do the things.

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It's like infusing grace into you through the

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priestly order. But as Christians today, it's

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been dominant that, you know, they've misunderstood

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what temptation is. They've misunderstood what

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morally culpable sin is. And when you start pressing

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people on this, usually they come to the right

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conclusions. When you start making it heinous

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sin that they hate and don't tolerate, you know.

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I heard one pastor in New York City, 30 seconds

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later, so he says, homosexuality in your heart's

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not sin. 30 seconds later, he says he's rebuking

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hypocrisy and Christians. Oh, yeah, and he says

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if you find it in your heart you it's sin and

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you have to get rid of it you have to repent

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and It's pretty wild whenever you hear guys and

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I mean almost the same like sentence say well

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homosexuality in your hearts not sin, but everything

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else is and Let me I saw I want to come back

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to that in just a moment. Terry who is up until

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this point been silent so far. I have been. Yeah,

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I've been taking it all in. Yeah. He usually

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starts one of these episodes with an anecdote.

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And there is a particularly encouraging anecdote

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about how the physical form of 33 Days to Freedom

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from Lust came to be. Good -looking hardcover

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volume we're looking at here. I think you can

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also get it in paperback. But how did this book

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physically come to be, Jared? Yeah, so I just

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started writing it on a daily basis, took me

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nine months to write, mainly because the poem's

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in there. But the thought is, how do you get

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these, how do you get truth into your bones?

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You know, and it's through repetition. If you

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have a lust problem, you've got a love for God

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problem, and a love for your neighbor problem,

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and a love for yourself problem. And so how do

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you turn all that on its head? Well, you exalt

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God and get Him as far up there as you can get

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Him where He actually is. I mean, He's with us

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as well, but He came a great distance to save

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us. And a lot of folks don't really understand

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that. Jesus is their buddy. And yeah, He's our

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friend, but He's Lord. And, you know, He's the

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Creator of all things. And so I try to magnify,

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you know, like the first 20 days are... focusing

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on who God is and His beauty. And if you're going

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to expel any sin from your heart, it's through

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a new affection. You have to have a greater affection

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for God than you do for your sin. Who's the Puritan,

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the explosive power of a new affection? Is it

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Chalmers? Chalmers comes to my mind. That's a

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great book. That's kind of the thesis. Yeah,

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that's the, okay, if Chalmers, that notion of

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how, you know, the power of a new affection,

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basically the expulsive power of a new affection,

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that if you have greater affection for God than

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you do for your sin, particularly lust, then

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you will hate lust. Like, like one fella in an

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interview asked me, you know, well, what are,

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I noticed you didn't have any practical steps

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in your, and I said, well, you know, if, if,

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if you're trying to get somebody not to murder,

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you don't have to give them practical steps to

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stop loving murder. You tell them to repent and

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love God and live his ethics. Is the lack of

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practicality a comment on your previous book,

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Lust of the Flesh? Because this seems an imminently

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practical. Well, he was meaning like steps like

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get rid of this, bounce your eyes, stuff like

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that. Conditionings. Yeah, and you don't have

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to do that when you love the Lord. Throw obstacles

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in the way. Yeah, yeah. But the reason why you've

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got to do all that is because your heart still

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wants lust. The purpose of this book is to get

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you to the point where you no longer want it.

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So you're not trying to throw a router away.

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No. Sorry. Would you say that that's something

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else? I mean, that would be outside the scope

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of your book. But if somebody is in a bad spot

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with this, they would need to accept your recommendation

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going through this, working on the things that

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you suggest. Should they also think about taking

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practical steps, like covenant eyes? or just

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an accountability relationship, other things

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that would be an obstacle to, and this isn't

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specifically porn use, but it is about lust,

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which is of course connected. So lust doesn't

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require a router, but is that something that

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you'd recommend? If I was to come to you in counseling,

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would you want to assess those kinds of practical

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needs in addition to this? Potentially, but you've

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got to get to a point where you can live in this

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world like a normal, you know... like everybody

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else says, like if Jesus had a phone and a router,

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it wouldn't be an issue. And I don't think it

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would be an issue for the apostles or the prophets.

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And so what's the issue ultimately? It's the

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heart. It's the fact that, and I think that's

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what Jesus is getting at in Matthew 5, when he

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says to look at a woman with lust as adultery,

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he's telling them, and some of the commentators

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argue this, that You desire lust because you

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desire adultery in your heart because you have

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an adulterous heart And so what were the goal

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is not just to purge lust The the goal is to

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purge or to expel an adulterous heart for your

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heart to change So how does your heart change?

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Well when you get saved you no longer want to

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live for the world you want to live for Christ

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and sometimes the Lord immediately takes like

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habitual sin away, the drunk wakes up and is

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no longer, never desires alcohol again. But in

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most cases, God gives us the Holy Spirit and

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the means of grace, so the word, the local church,

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prayer, just thinking on the word, singing the

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Lord's table together, all those things to gradually

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conform us to the image of Christ as we believe.

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So would you say that I mean, lust is a term,

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and we're here assuming that by this you mean

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sexual lust, but lust can be applied in a more

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general way. Do you think that this book could

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be applied to a number of besetting sins? Absolutely.

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Any besetting sin in your heart. And on the final

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page, I make a suggestion, if you've not seen

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any headway on your lust in your heart, then

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maybe you do need to get rid of the internet,

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your phone, all these things until you get to

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a point. to where you can be strong enough to

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where you won't be tempted by just having those

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things. Well, in my own pastoral ministry, and

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even really in my own sanctification, you know,

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if you're trying to help someone break a heroin

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addiction, you need to get them away from the

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dealer, right? Yeah. You got to quit going to

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see your heroin dealer, even if he was your best

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buddy in middle school. And so I do think there's

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sort of a baby steps. grammar issue to doing

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some of those things, making lifestyle changes.

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But I don't want to do that in a way that gets

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in the way of what you're saying. It's ultimately

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about your appetites. It's about your affections.

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The things that you want to love and that captivate

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your attention, right? That said, I'm going to

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pause here one more time because I'm trying to

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get something on the record. I'm specifically

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asking you for the anecdote about the patron

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who helped get this book produced. Cause I think

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that's encouraging to people. So I was putting,

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I was designing the book cover myself, putting

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it on Twitter and people were voting on it. They

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hated every one of them that I made. And my kids

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loved it. And I'd be sitting there and be like,

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man, this is good. And I put it on there. And

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I mean, like, I think the highest I got was like

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seven percent, 200 votes. Seven percent liked

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it. No graphic design. No, not at all. I thought

00:13:57.759 --> 00:14:02.600
it was, but no, not even close. So a former homosexual

00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:06.179
who evidently read my last book or appreciated

00:14:06.179 --> 00:14:08.759
some of the work I've written, who's walking

00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:12.480
faithfully with the Lord, volunteered. reached

00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:14.720
out to a graphic designer who does it for a living

00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:19.120
and said he'll pay for it. And so he, not only

00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:21.860
for this cover, but for the leader guide that

00:14:21.860 --> 00:14:25.320
goes with the curriculum, he paid for that, paid

00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:28.500
for this. I mean, so an anonymous, I still don't

00:14:28.500 --> 00:14:33.159
know who it is, but it's really cool how the

00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:36.279
Lord works those things out. Yeah, I just think

00:14:36.279 --> 00:14:41.360
that is so encouraging because specifically Again,

00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:43.940
we don't want to reduce this to sexual lust.

00:14:44.659 --> 00:14:47.200
But part of my problem with evangelicalism in

00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:49.580
my adult years, particularly for the last decade,

00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:54.120
is that they treat your sexual appetites as an

00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:57.700
irremovable feature of your personality. And

00:14:57.700 --> 00:15:00.100
so there's this idea that it'll never be different.

00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:04.279
And yet your work, bringing Scripture to bear

00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:07.679
on the topic, has already produced these stories

00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:11.379
of men or, you know, whoever it is saying, you

00:15:11.379 --> 00:15:13.840
know, actually I've experienced real meaningful

00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:17.139
gospel change by just believing that scripture

00:15:17.139 --> 00:15:22.039
is credible, it's sufficient, and lo and behold,

00:15:22.299 --> 00:15:27.460
I've got some meaningful change in my life over

00:15:27.460 --> 00:15:29.899
it, right? So just to catch everybody up to this

00:15:29.899 --> 00:15:33.460
point, everybody in this room knows Jared. How

00:15:33.460 --> 00:15:37.519
long have you been pastoring? 25 years. Okay,

00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:43.860
so started off in Crossville, Saudi Daisy, Houstonville,

00:15:43.860 --> 00:15:47.919
Kentucky, back to Crossville now, did a Ph .D.

00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:51.519
at Southern Seminary in Systematics, Systematic

00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:53.240
Theology. I remember you initially were talking

00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:54.980
about doing something on common grace, that door

00:15:54.980 --> 00:15:58.820
didn't open. What led you to this shift? So your

00:15:58.820 --> 00:16:02.679
Ph .D. was on concupiscence. Could you define

00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:04.899
concupiscence for us and then could you tell

00:16:04.899 --> 00:16:07.220
us How did that shift happen? Were you moved

00:16:07.220 --> 00:16:10.320
into this arena? Yeah, so I wanted to write on

00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:12.799
common grace, particularly the Noahic covenant

00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:16.399
and its relation to the atonement. And my...

00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:21.460
Nerd alert! My advisor approved every prospectus

00:16:21.460 --> 00:16:23.659
I submitted, but the two, you have to get three

00:16:23.659 --> 00:16:27.019
professors and two of the other professors, who

00:16:27.019 --> 00:16:30.019
I will not name, they rejected every one of them.

00:16:30.019 --> 00:16:32.320
And so for a year I was trying to get that passed

00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:34.889
and they finally told me, look, We'll give you

00:16:34.889 --> 00:16:36.470
a TGM and you can go somewhere else and write

00:16:36.470 --> 00:16:38.590
this dissertation, or you can change your topic.

00:16:38.990 --> 00:16:42.129
And I wanted to write a book against the side

00:16:42.129 --> 00:16:44.649
B gay Christian movement. Could you explain that

00:16:44.649 --> 00:16:46.409
real quick? Yeah, these are the folks who say

00:16:46.409 --> 00:16:49.950
that they're gay, but they're celibate, and homosexuality

00:16:49.950 --> 00:16:52.730
in their heart is not sin. Would it be accurate

00:16:52.730 --> 00:16:55.850
to say that they go to some sort of disordered

00:16:55.850 --> 00:17:01.029
good? So I'm thinking of Sam Albury, Wesley Hill.

00:17:03.019 --> 00:17:06.000
an example listener would be, well, as a man,

00:17:06.099 --> 00:17:09.359
I desire deep and authentic male friendships.

00:17:10.180 --> 00:17:12.900
So my appetite, my same -sex appetite is just

00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:17.039
a disordering of this good that I want to have

00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:20.660
male friendships, right? And so there was this

00:17:20.660 --> 00:17:23.880
idea that it was at its core something good,

00:17:24.140 --> 00:17:26.059
but it become disordered somewhere along the

00:17:26.059 --> 00:17:28.690
way. That's sort of the side B. Kind of move?

00:17:28.890 --> 00:17:31.950
Yeah, it's just empty rhetoric. They're changing

00:17:31.950 --> 00:17:35.690
the definitions of everything. Even Wesley Hill

00:17:35.690 --> 00:17:38.630
supposedly was practicing what he later wrote

00:17:38.630 --> 00:17:41.490
in his book, and he fell in love with his best

00:17:41.490 --> 00:17:46.450
friend. That should have been a scandal. He should

00:17:46.450 --> 00:17:48.210
have been removed from any form of ministry.

00:17:48.329 --> 00:17:51.089
He couldn't have been ordained, but none of that.

00:17:52.130 --> 00:17:55.829
It's wild to believe at 2025, but I think Wesley

00:17:55.829 --> 00:18:00.309
was advocating for lifelong, monogamous... Covenant

00:18:00.309 --> 00:18:03.109
friendships. Covenant friendships that involve

00:18:03.109 --> 00:18:06.150
things like cuddling on the couch while you watched

00:18:06.150 --> 00:18:10.390
a movie. And lo and behold, that kind of friendship...

00:18:10.390 --> 00:18:13.289
Right. Everybody in here just shuddered. That

00:18:13.289 --> 00:18:16.049
kind of friendship turned into him falling in

00:18:16.049 --> 00:18:17.650
love with the person. I mean well put that in

00:18:17.650 --> 00:18:19.990
a heterosexual context Yeah, what a ridiculous

00:18:19.990 --> 00:18:23.529
thing to claim that you can do exactly. Mm -hmm.

00:18:23.789 --> 00:18:27.230
I mean, but that Again, it sounds so absurd.

00:18:27.490 --> 00:18:31.609
Yeah, but that was the dominant thinking on same

00:18:31.609 --> 00:18:37.359
-sex attraction from like 2010 to today. Yeah.

00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:39.819
Well, that all comes out of, and I'm glad you

00:18:39.819 --> 00:18:41.660
brought up concupiscence, because this is one

00:18:41.660 --> 00:18:43.380
of the places where I think evangelicals have

00:18:43.380 --> 00:18:46.000
been really lost in the sauce for a while. Because

00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:48.880
I can remember growing up hearing, temptation

00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:52.980
isn't sin. It's only sin if you do it. The devil

00:18:52.980 --> 00:18:58.940
tempts you. It's all his fault. And so, there's

00:18:58.940 --> 00:19:01.690
a… You know, it could have been slightly more

00:19:01.690 --> 00:19:03.349
nuanced than that when I heard it, and that's

00:19:03.349 --> 00:19:04.970
just the takeaway that I had, but that's the

00:19:04.970 --> 00:19:07.509
issue, I think. They're telling students, young

00:19:07.509 --> 00:19:09.369
people who aren't mature enough to understand

00:19:09.369 --> 00:19:12.049
that whatever your desires are in your heart

00:19:12.049 --> 00:19:13.869
aren't actually sinned. And they didn't relate

00:19:13.869 --> 00:19:15.730
it to necessarily sexual matters. It could be

00:19:15.730 --> 00:19:18.710
anything. But teenagers, as often, it probably

00:19:18.710 --> 00:19:21.869
is sexual matters. But that was the takeaway

00:19:21.869 --> 00:19:24.250
of like, well, as long as you don't do it, then

00:19:24.250 --> 00:19:26.500
you're winning. Like you're winning against the

00:19:26.500 --> 00:19:28.799
temptation. Like you've managed to resist the

00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:31.400
temptation. And so we were all kind of brought

00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:35.480
up, at least I was, in this idea that whatever

00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:37.880
temptations come along aren't really your fault

00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:40.180
and you don't have to do anything about them

00:19:40.180 --> 00:19:43.490
except resist the actual. outworking of those

00:19:43.490 --> 00:19:46.609
things in the world. And lo and behold, when

00:19:46.609 --> 00:19:48.809
we all got a computer to put in our pocket. Sure.

00:19:48.809 --> 00:19:50.589
And then you go downstream from that, and now

00:19:50.589 --> 00:19:53.289
you've got these guys saying, well, I am tempted,

00:19:53.890 --> 00:19:56.470
but the version of resistance is that I don't

00:19:56.470 --> 00:19:59.450
go all the way. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I don't

00:19:59.450 --> 00:20:01.369
mean to be crass, but like Wesley, he was like,

00:20:01.529 --> 00:20:04.710
stop at second base, right? And of course it's

00:20:04.710 --> 00:20:07.750
a disaster. But I did ask you to define concubusence.

00:20:07.869 --> 00:20:09.529
We're talking about, could you just tell us what

00:20:09.529 --> 00:20:13.559
concubusence is? Yeah, it's any Any longing in

00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:17.079
you against God or against His design, His law,

00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:22.039
any evil impulse, it's what's left over of original

00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:26.839
sin in Christians. We'd call it the old man.

00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:31.299
The old man. The flesh. The flesh. It is sin

00:20:31.299 --> 00:20:33.619
and it can only produce sin. That's the thing.

00:20:34.500 --> 00:20:38.920
These guys will argue that homosexuality is a

00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:41.859
result of the fall. And then the next breath,

00:20:42.019 --> 00:20:44.079
they'll say, you need to stored your sexuality,

00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:48.059
which is telling folks to stored their sin, which

00:20:48.059 --> 00:20:50.559
is the opposite of scripture. If listeners are

00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:52.359
familiar with the Re -Voice, there was a conference

00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:54.940
apparatus that built up around the Side B movement

00:20:54.940 --> 00:20:58.640
that tried to normalize this stuff. And I remember

00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:00.259
one of the conference breakout sessions that

00:21:00.259 --> 00:21:01.900
caught everybody's attention a while back was

00:21:01.900 --> 00:21:05.829
what products of gay culture will be found in

00:21:05.829 --> 00:21:09.029
the New Jerusalem. This is how intrinsic they

00:21:09.029 --> 00:21:11.910
think the goodness of the root of their same

00:21:11.910 --> 00:21:14.690
-sex appetites are. That some product of it is

00:21:14.690 --> 00:21:18.150
going to find itself in the city that Jesus visibly

00:21:18.150 --> 00:21:22.069
rules in eternity. Nate Collins, who's the president

00:21:22.069 --> 00:21:26.230
of Revoice, actually argued that you might even

00:21:26.230 --> 00:21:28.809
be gay in heaven. I mean, they think that you

00:21:28.809 --> 00:21:31.769
can redeem it. What they do is they separate

00:21:31.769 --> 00:21:34.490
same -sex attraction into same -sex attraction,

00:21:35.029 --> 00:21:37.109
which is the desire for same -sex friendship

00:21:37.109 --> 00:21:40.309
and the desire for same -sex beauty, they say,

00:21:40.930 --> 00:21:43.130
and same -sex sexual attraction. They argue that

00:21:43.130 --> 00:21:46.930
the same -sex sexual attraction is sin. But the

00:21:46.930 --> 00:21:48.910
same -sex attraction can be redeemed and aimed

00:21:48.910 --> 00:21:51.450
at good things and holy things. And so, when

00:21:51.450 --> 00:21:54.930
I was in seminary, I had a friend, mutual friend,

00:21:55.049 --> 00:21:59.049
you know him. who was talking about Wesley Hill,

00:21:59.150 --> 00:22:01.890
like, go listen to this guy. And he's talking

00:22:01.890 --> 00:22:04.930
about Washington waiting and how he's gay, but

00:22:04.930 --> 00:22:08.109
he's waiting on the redemption of his body. And

00:22:08.109 --> 00:22:09.509
I was listening to him. I was like, man, there

00:22:09.509 --> 00:22:15.029
is no way this is right. So it's all empty rhetoric

00:22:15.029 --> 00:22:18.789
because Genesis 2, what they're advocating for

00:22:18.789 --> 00:22:21.690
at the base level is they're looking at men the

00:22:21.690 --> 00:22:25.230
way that Eve looked at Adam, which is upside

00:22:25.230 --> 00:22:28.319
down. This is common sense. This is what Christians

00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:31.599
have always understood on this issue, that from

00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:36.779
the root of any evil, it's your flesh warring

00:22:36.779 --> 00:22:39.380
against the Spirit. You're warring against the

00:22:39.380 --> 00:22:41.980
law of God. Oftentimes people ask, well, have

00:22:41.980 --> 00:22:43.940
I sinned when they should be asking, have I been

00:22:43.940 --> 00:22:47.420
obedient? Because if you haven't been obedient

00:22:47.420 --> 00:22:52.599
from your heart, you've sinned. Well, I don't

00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:54.559
know what listeners' background is with this

00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:57.220
material. But you were talking about Nate Collins.

00:22:58.059 --> 00:23:01.180
He did his PhD at Southern Baptist Theological

00:23:01.180 --> 00:23:03.720
Seminary. So the flagship Southern Baptist Theological

00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:05.660
Seminary. This is Nate Collins on Re -Voice.

00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:08.299
We're talking about Sam Albury. We're talking

00:23:08.299 --> 00:23:11.460
about Wesley Hill. I don't know about Wesley's

00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:16.380
publication record, but Crossway loves Sam Albury.

00:23:17.660 --> 00:23:19.980
You know, if you have an ESV study Bible, that's

00:23:19.980 --> 00:23:22.890
produced by Crossway. I'm trying to think of

00:23:22.890 --> 00:23:26.430
the books that, you know, people have read, Jensen

00:23:26.430 --> 00:23:30.289
and Lowley by Ortland, that's Crossway, like

00:23:30.289 --> 00:23:33.589
major evangelical publishing houses and institutions.

00:23:33.730 --> 00:23:36.650
Now, Southern Seminary is not going to sign on

00:23:36.650 --> 00:23:40.650
to Nate Collins, but I'm not overstating the

00:23:40.650 --> 00:23:44.950
case that this dominated evangelicalism, this

00:23:44.950 --> 00:23:49.329
conversation, this angle of side B thinking dominated

00:23:49.329 --> 00:23:52.579
evangelicalism. so much so that I have to confess,

00:23:52.619 --> 00:23:55.920
and I've said this before, but I would listen

00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:57.619
to these same -sex attracted Christians and they

00:23:57.619 --> 00:24:00.420
would say, well, I wasn't abused as a child or

00:24:00.420 --> 00:24:02.140
I wasn't deeply addicted to porn. I don't know

00:24:02.140 --> 00:24:04.819
where these appetites came from. And I can remember

00:24:04.819 --> 00:24:06.299
as your thought was developing on this, I was

00:24:06.299 --> 00:24:08.420
arguing with you. They can't account for where

00:24:08.420 --> 00:24:10.240
this came from. They can't be responsible for

00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:14.539
it. And I know there was a mantra that you gave

00:24:14.539 --> 00:24:18.500
me that eventually just clicked. It's so deeply

00:24:18.500 --> 00:24:23.279
biblical. to desire sin is sin. And I just remember,

00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:26.779
like, loud conversations where you're like, Jeff,

00:24:27.259 --> 00:24:31.539
to desire sin is sin. You know, you go to Jesus

00:24:31.539 --> 00:24:35.000
to look at a woman with lust in your heart is

00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:39.920
adulterous. And I was caught up in it in kind

00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:42.500
of the propaganda wave coming out of evangelicalism

00:24:42.500 --> 00:24:45.519
for a number of years. And thankfully, you were

00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:48.750
my friend. powered through it, but this stuff

00:24:48.750 --> 00:24:52.049
was powerfully pushed. I think part of the power

00:24:52.049 --> 00:24:54.509
that came from this is that it seems like Christianity

00:24:54.509 --> 00:24:58.029
in general has bought Hokeline and Sinker, the

00:24:58.029 --> 00:25:02.750
born this way myth. And we even use these terms,

00:25:02.829 --> 00:25:05.690
like you would say, he is gay, which is not a

00:25:05.690 --> 00:25:09.309
good way to describe someone because that implies

00:25:09.309 --> 00:25:11.750
that that is a part of who they are as a person.

00:25:12.329 --> 00:25:14.789
rather than a sinful choice that they're making.

00:25:15.630 --> 00:25:18.410
I think we are very much conditioned creatures

00:25:18.410 --> 00:25:25.670
and the choices that we allow further, more choices

00:25:25.670 --> 00:25:31.609
down the road of the same sort. I'm not as educated

00:25:31.609 --> 00:25:33.990
as all the other gentlemen sitting at this table,

00:25:33.990 --> 00:25:37.630
so I'll break it down in a way that I can explain.

00:25:38.869 --> 00:25:42.549
For instance, If I see a beautiful woman on the

00:25:42.549 --> 00:25:46.829
street, I have trained my eyes, I have conditioned

00:25:46.829 --> 00:25:51.190
my eyes to look away. I don't train my eyes on

00:25:51.190 --> 00:25:56.049
that woman because I know where my nature will

00:25:56.049 --> 00:26:00.269
take me if I allow it to go there. So my eyes

00:26:00.269 --> 00:26:05.990
out of reflex look away. And that's what I think

00:26:05.990 --> 00:26:09.130
we have to do. just as a society, is we have

00:26:09.130 --> 00:26:15.269
to set a threshold or a gate, and we don't go

00:26:15.269 --> 00:26:22.309
through that. We have to be able to train ourselves

00:26:22.309 --> 00:26:27.549
to know what is dangerous ground to stand on.

00:26:28.329 --> 00:26:31.869
And I think our society, we're oblivious to that.

00:26:31.869 --> 00:26:36.049
We see sexual appetites as the route to our most

00:26:36.049 --> 00:26:38.589
authentic self. It's how Stella gets her groove

00:26:38.589 --> 00:26:44.809
back. It's how whoever has the awakening on a

00:26:44.809 --> 00:26:47.170
wild weekend where she sleeps with multiple people.

00:26:47.430 --> 00:26:51.130
We see sexual identity as your most authentic

00:26:51.130 --> 00:26:54.630
self. Before that even, you don't hear this as

00:26:54.630 --> 00:27:00.069
much, but the idea that a boy becomes a man after

00:27:00.069 --> 00:27:04.460
he has sex the first time. Yeah. Sexuality in

00:27:04.460 --> 00:27:09.599
general has been cheapened, and it's become something

00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:13.299
far less important than it truly is. There's

00:27:13.299 --> 00:27:15.420
so many connections that happen. It's casual,

00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:18.400
right? Yeah, it's casual. And that's the whole

00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:21.680
problem with it. It's both casual and the great

00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:24.859
epiphany that tells you who you really are. We

00:27:24.859 --> 00:27:28.460
try to do both. Tinder or whatever, hook up with

00:27:28.460 --> 00:27:30.420
whoever you want to, but then you're also going

00:27:30.420 --> 00:27:32.640
to know yourself best in those appetites or when

00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:35.519
you're sexually charged or whatever. It is a

00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:39.900
schizophrenic notion. Yeah. And it's the absurdity

00:27:39.900 --> 00:27:43.460
is getting even more absurd because you have

00:27:43.460 --> 00:27:48.200
VR programs coming online that will submerge

00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:51.819
people into this sin. so much further than they

00:27:51.819 --> 00:27:55.059
are right now. Yeah. You know, 2025, we're at

00:27:55.059 --> 00:27:58.039
the cusp of that. You know, Elon famously has

00:27:58.039 --> 00:28:01.940
a neural link. You can have a direct brain interface

00:28:01.940 --> 00:28:06.039
where for some subscription service like Netflix,

00:28:06.700 --> 00:28:10.359
you could spend the day in some direct brain

00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:14.680
programming, sleeping with the top 25 most attractive

00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:16.779
women in society at the moment. Like, again,

00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:20.890
it'd be a pay package. And all these things are

00:28:20.890 --> 00:28:25.869
right here available to us in this technological

00:28:25.869 --> 00:28:28.650
moment we're at because we've stopped thinking

00:28:28.650 --> 00:28:33.430
about lust as a path to hell and have started

00:28:33.430 --> 00:28:36.369
thinking about it as something that's both ultimately

00:28:36.369 --> 00:28:39.230
meaningless. You think about Larry Flint, the

00:28:39.230 --> 00:28:42.670
publisher of Hustler, Jared and I were in New

00:28:42.670 --> 00:28:46.170
Orleans one time. We walked past a Hustler building

00:28:46.170 --> 00:28:49.819
and the tagline on the building was, relax, it's

00:28:49.819 --> 00:28:52.940
just sex. But then also, it's the most meaningful

00:28:52.940 --> 00:28:54.680
experience you can have. We're going to be able

00:28:54.680 --> 00:28:57.059
to pump that directly into people's brains because

00:28:57.059 --> 00:29:00.420
we don't know how to think about this. And evangelicalism,

00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.700
to Terry's point, is not really doing better.

00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:09.440
It's adopting it and then trying to baptize it,

00:29:09.880 --> 00:29:13.059
put some guardrails up, but work with the same

00:29:13.059 --> 00:29:18.140
default assumptions. Absolutely. So Terry brought

00:29:18.140 --> 00:29:20.940
up about temptation and understanding temptation.

00:29:22.299 --> 00:29:24.599
We've adopted a lot of taglines, like, temptation

00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:28.000
isn't sin. Jesus was tempted. Church history...

00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:29.859
Oh, that's a great one. I hope you'll unpack

00:29:29.859 --> 00:29:32.079
that for our listeners in just a moment. Church

00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:34.660
history has always understood that there are

00:29:34.660 --> 00:29:37.960
two forms of temptation. One is when you're offered

00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:41.359
something evil, inherently evil. It's lawless.

00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:45.789
You know, it's unlawful. And that is inner temptation.

00:29:45.950 --> 00:29:47.990
You're desiring something that's forbidden. It's

00:29:47.990 --> 00:29:50.289
a violation of the 10th commandment. You shall

00:29:50.289 --> 00:29:52.230
not covet. You shall not desire your neighbor's

00:29:52.230 --> 00:29:54.049
wife or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

00:29:55.789 --> 00:29:58.150
And interestingly, in the Hebrew, in Genesis

00:29:58.150 --> 00:30:03.430
3 -6, whenever Eve desires the tree, the forbidden

00:30:03.430 --> 00:30:07.289
tree, because it makes her wise, it's the same

00:30:07.289 --> 00:30:09.849
Hebrew word used in the 10th commandment about

00:30:09.849 --> 00:30:12.769
coveting. So she is coveting the forbidden tree.

00:30:13.190 --> 00:30:17.349
So there's not any pre -coveting desire. It's

00:30:17.349 --> 00:30:19.490
not like you have a neutral desire and then it

00:30:19.490 --> 00:30:22.789
becomes lust at a later date or a later moment.

00:30:23.349 --> 00:30:28.490
No, the seed of lust is lust, right? Like it's

00:30:28.490 --> 00:30:31.950
not good things produce lust or neutral things

00:30:31.950 --> 00:30:37.210
or God designed things. It is the lust of the

00:30:37.210 --> 00:30:41.559
flesh. The flesh is producing the lust. And so,

00:30:41.700 --> 00:30:45.160
James 1 describes this, where he says, God can't

00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:48.279
tempt you. You're tempting yourself. Your own

00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:52.859
lusts lure and entice you. And they then conceive

00:30:52.859 --> 00:30:55.759
mindful sin and then grow into death. You know,

00:30:55.799 --> 00:30:59.240
that's the life cycle of sin listed there. But

00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:01.880
the picture is that of a woman giving birth.

00:31:02.500 --> 00:31:07.589
And so, the nature of the death and the sin The

00:31:07.589 --> 00:31:09.950
lust is of that same nature. That's why it grows

00:31:09.950 --> 00:31:11.890
into those things. That's why it can only produce

00:31:11.890 --> 00:31:17.049
those things. No one can say that I was aimed

00:31:17.049 --> 00:31:21.049
at good whenever I was lusting. It is sin that

00:31:21.049 --> 00:31:23.150
is enticing you. Although, like a Wesley Hill

00:31:23.150 --> 00:31:24.950
would have said that about you, right? Like,

00:31:25.009 --> 00:31:28.650
I really wanted a good male friend. Yes. He tries

00:31:28.650 --> 00:31:32.589
to say that he's aimed at good whenever he's

00:31:32.589 --> 00:31:36.130
literally desiring an abomination in his heart.

00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:40.420
And so, inner temptation is always the beginning

00:31:40.420 --> 00:31:43.079
of sin. Now, when you're lured and enticed by

00:31:43.079 --> 00:31:45.660
your own desires, you should rejoice if you don't

00:31:45.660 --> 00:31:48.660
submit to it. But you've got to confess wanting

00:31:48.660 --> 00:31:51.220
to do it. There's a part of you that wants to

00:31:51.220 --> 00:31:53.619
do it. That's why you find it tempting. Now,

00:31:53.619 --> 00:31:56.180
the other form of temptation is what Jesus experienced,

00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:58.940
which is when you're offered a good thing through

00:31:58.940 --> 00:32:02.140
an evil means. It's not sin to desire the good

00:32:02.140 --> 00:32:07.329
thing. So, in Jesus' temptation? Yes. when he's

00:32:07.329 --> 00:32:10.529
offered by Satan to, or he's enticed by Satan

00:32:10.529 --> 00:32:14.609
to turn a stone into bread. It's good to eat

00:32:14.609 --> 00:32:18.130
bread. The text says he was hungry. It's good

00:32:18.130 --> 00:32:20.809
for hunger to be satiated. Yes. When he's offered

00:32:20.809 --> 00:32:24.029
the nations, Jesus was, the whole design was

00:32:24.029 --> 00:32:26.950
for Jesus to receive the nations. What Satan's

00:32:26.950 --> 00:32:28.950
offering him is the nations without the cross.

00:32:29.289 --> 00:32:31.690
So, he's offering him something good, not something

00:32:31.690 --> 00:32:34.710
evil. Right. He's offering something good through

00:32:34.710 --> 00:32:37.289
an evil means. But if you accept the evil means

00:32:37.289 --> 00:32:40.549
and desire the evil means, similar to inner temptation

00:32:40.549 --> 00:32:42.789
where you're desiring evil, if you desire the

00:32:42.789 --> 00:32:45.970
evil means, you're desiring evil. And so, Jesus,

00:32:46.509 --> 00:32:49.450
all his temptations, He was offered good things

00:32:49.450 --> 00:32:51.589
through evil means, and he did not desire the

00:32:51.589 --> 00:32:54.049
evil means, he desired the good things from his

00:32:54.049 --> 00:33:00.950
father. So if I lose my job, and you know, Baptist

00:33:00.950 --> 00:33:04.490
can vote you out any time, if I lose my job and

00:33:04.490 --> 00:33:07.130
I need to provide for my family, wanting to provide

00:33:07.130 --> 00:33:09.630
for my family's God -designed order, it's according

00:33:09.630 --> 00:33:11.190
to the created order, it's a good thing, it's

00:33:11.190 --> 00:33:13.829
commanded. But if a drug dealer says, hey, come

00:33:13.829 --> 00:33:17.799
sell these drugs for me. If I reject that offer

00:33:17.799 --> 00:33:20.380
while still desiring to provide for my family,

00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:23.440
I've been tempted like Jesus. But if I desire,

00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:25.500
if I contemplate, well maybe I could sell them

00:33:25.500 --> 00:33:28.420
this one time, then I've begun to sin in my heart.

00:33:29.579 --> 00:33:32.839
So Jesus was tempted like us, yet without sin.

00:33:33.500 --> 00:33:37.180
He was tempted by good things. You know, the

00:33:37.180 --> 00:33:39.339
devil goes to Jesus with inherently good things.

00:33:39.500 --> 00:33:42.019
You name some of them food, angel protection,

00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:46.299
to be the king of kings. But he went to the first

00:33:46.299 --> 00:33:50.960
David with lust, laziness, adultery, lying, murder.

00:33:51.220 --> 00:33:54.839
And got him. Yeah. And David desired him. So

00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:57.579
if you desire something inwardly, evil, you're

00:33:57.579 --> 00:33:59.759
being tempted like David or Peter. If you're

00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:01.460
being offered a good thing through an evil means,

00:34:01.539 --> 00:34:03.680
you're being tempted like Jesus. If you don't

00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:05.980
desire the evil means, you have not sinned. It

00:34:05.980 --> 00:34:09.510
is possible to be tempted without sinning. if

00:34:09.510 --> 00:34:12.250
it's outward. But inward, you've already begun

00:34:12.250 --> 00:34:15.949
to sin because your flesh is lusting. Desiring.

00:34:16.170 --> 00:34:19.809
Desiring. Yeah, that's good. So, when the Bible

00:34:19.809 --> 00:34:23.230
in Hebrews tells us that Jesus was tempted in

00:34:23.230 --> 00:34:25.530
every way that we are, yet without sin, you're

00:34:25.530 --> 00:34:27.210
saying that there's still this crucial distinction.

00:34:27.269 --> 00:34:33.469
Yes. That Jesus never had a desire to lust after

00:34:33.469 --> 00:34:35.469
a female he saw on the streets of Jerusalem.

00:34:35.550 --> 00:34:39.650
Right. His temptations were things like, this

00:34:39.650 --> 00:34:41.130
is what the Father's already going to give you.

00:34:41.150 --> 00:34:43.349
Just go ahead and take it by an independent exercise

00:34:43.349 --> 00:34:45.090
of your power rather than submission to your

00:34:45.090 --> 00:34:51.449
Father. That's not us. As sons of Adam, before

00:34:51.449 --> 00:34:54.809
the gospel, we're tempted for wicked things.

00:34:55.329 --> 00:34:57.369
Right, right. And Jesus can't be tempted by wicked

00:34:57.369 --> 00:35:00.789
things. If Jesus desired evil, then He violated

00:35:00.789 --> 00:35:03.940
the tenth commandment. And which is, of course,

00:35:04.039 --> 00:35:06.019
means he's a sinner. And would disqualify him

00:35:06.019 --> 00:35:08.079
as the righteous substitute. Yes. I mean, he

00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:10.940
says in the Sermon on the Mount, blessed are

00:35:10.940 --> 00:35:13.280
the pure in heart, for they shall see God. He

00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:18.320
commands us in Matthew 22, 37 through 39, that

00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:19.980
we're to love God with all our hearts, souls,

00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:22.159
and minds, love our neighbors as ourselves. And

00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:27.159
if he didn't do that, then he sinned. And so,

00:35:28.390 --> 00:35:31.349
Temptation is sin if it's inwardly and you're

00:35:31.349 --> 00:35:33.769
tempting yourself. If it's outwardly, it's not

00:35:33.769 --> 00:35:36.349
sin if you don't desire the evil means. I find

00:35:36.349 --> 00:35:39.309
it very freeing, right, like to distinguish those

00:35:39.309 --> 00:35:42.969
two. because the goal is not to get out of sin,

00:35:43.010 --> 00:35:45.789
right? The goal is, and by that I mean using

00:35:45.789 --> 00:35:48.250
rhetoric to get out of sin, right? Like, to evade

00:35:48.250 --> 00:35:51.429
the consequences and the blame. Like, to try

00:35:51.429 --> 00:35:53.150
to, I don't have to go to the mirror to say,

00:35:53.289 --> 00:35:56.650
well, did I inwardly desire this or was it outward?

00:35:57.309 --> 00:35:59.789
No, no, I just go to Jesus. He's my advocate.

00:35:59.889 --> 00:36:01.929
He's at the Father's right hand. He's interceding

00:36:01.929 --> 00:36:04.909
for me. Like, I don't understand why Christians

00:36:04.909 --> 00:36:08.170
are so adamant about, no, I haven't sinned, no,

00:36:08.170 --> 00:36:10.989
I haven't sinned. When Jesus taught us to pray,

00:36:11.010 --> 00:36:14.469
He says, confess your debts, forgive us our debts.

00:36:15.130 --> 00:36:17.230
Right? As we forgive those who trespass against

00:36:17.230 --> 00:36:19.369
us. Like, it's fundamental. When He teaches you

00:36:19.369 --> 00:36:22.469
to pray, Jesus knew every time you'd pray, you

00:36:22.469 --> 00:36:25.030
needed to confess your sins. Right? That's how

00:36:25.030 --> 00:36:28.889
sinful we are. And so, we just need to go to

00:36:28.889 --> 00:36:31.489
Jesus. And all these other things, these empty

00:36:31.489 --> 00:36:34.070
rhetoric, it constantly sends you to the mirror.

00:36:34.409 --> 00:36:37.119
Because the Wesley Hills, the Side B, And the

00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:38.960
people who believe, well, I haven't sinned if

00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:41.000
I haven't acted on it. They're constantly going

00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:44.539
to the mirror to ask, did I act on it? Did I

00:36:44.539 --> 00:36:47.320
act on it when they should be saying, was I obedient

00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:49.900
to God from my heart? I think that's a charitable

00:36:49.900 --> 00:36:53.119
view because my opinion is that a lot of these

00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:55.579
guys are really just looking to see how far they

00:36:55.579 --> 00:36:58.880
can go in disobedience before they get in trouble.

00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:02.480
I'm glad you brought up the Sermon on the Mount

00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:04.300
because this came up in Madden's here at the

00:37:04.300 --> 00:37:06.519
school. We did this, we went through lengthy

00:37:06.519 --> 00:37:10.179
portion of the Sermon on the Mount and I read

00:37:10.179 --> 00:37:12.139
an article and I cannot remember who it was by.

00:37:12.539 --> 00:37:16.440
It was on American Reformer. On the Sermon on

00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:19.179
the Mount kind of being the continuation of Moses

00:37:19.179 --> 00:37:21.559
law where the law that was handed down to us

00:37:21.559 --> 00:37:23.500
was a list of don't do this and the Sermon on

00:37:23.500 --> 00:37:26.260
the Mount and the New Testament that came after

00:37:26.260 --> 00:37:29.639
it was a clarification of it's not just about

00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:34.760
not doing X. It's about desiring to go forward

00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:37.760
towards holiness and pursue righteousness, which

00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:41.719
necessarily excludes X. And the Sermon on the

00:37:41.719 --> 00:37:43.480
Mount is Jesus kind of teaching that lesson.

00:37:43.659 --> 00:37:45.619
And then Paul continues to take that up in his

00:37:45.619 --> 00:37:47.599
letters, and it just continues throughout the

00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:51.019
whole New Testament of like, you know, seek righteousness,

00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:54.739
seek obedience to God, and that will push out

00:37:56.029 --> 00:37:59.250
any opportunities for sin. And that sounds like

00:37:59.250 --> 00:38:00.989
kind of the approach that you took here in this

00:38:00.989 --> 00:38:04.289
book. Yes, it's exactly what it is. And in Matthew

00:38:04.289 --> 00:38:06.570
5, the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus talks

00:38:06.570 --> 00:38:09.590
about lust, he's quoting the Septuagint, which

00:38:09.590 --> 00:38:11.809
is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible,

00:38:12.130 --> 00:38:15.190
the Old Testament, and he's combining the seventh

00:38:15.190 --> 00:38:17.869
and tenth commandments there when he says adultery,

00:38:18.110 --> 00:38:20.989
you know, to look with lust. He's actually quoting

00:38:20.989 --> 00:38:25.559
the tenth commandment and saying, so he's correcting

00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:27.380
the Pharisees who were teaching that only the

00:38:27.380 --> 00:38:30.159
outward action is sin. Well, that's odd. So you're

00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:37.039
saying this isn't the first time? Well, back

00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:39.980
to the cataclysm of evangelical discourse on

00:38:39.980 --> 00:38:43.840
this. So the idea was the sins grounded in something

00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:47.440
good that kind of went astray. Then you find

00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:49.199
your identity in it. So there's all this gay

00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:52.340
Christian stuff, right? And one of the things

00:38:52.340 --> 00:38:54.949
that came along with a light bulb that you kind

00:38:54.949 --> 00:38:58.449
of turned on above my head, is that I've called

00:38:58.449 --> 00:39:02.210
it evangelicalism special sin. So if I had someone

00:39:02.210 --> 00:39:05.989
come into the church and say, man, I'm a white

00:39:05.989 --> 00:39:08.090
dude. Every time I walk down the street and I

00:39:08.090 --> 00:39:10.829
see someone darker than me, I just hate them.

00:39:11.150 --> 00:39:13.030
And what I want to do is pull my car over and

00:39:13.030 --> 00:39:18.329
beat the trash out of them. And as a pastoral

00:39:18.329 --> 00:39:21.230
counselor, if I said, well, so you're a racist

00:39:21.230 --> 00:39:25.630
Christian, He's a side B racist Christian. Yeah,

00:39:25.829 --> 00:39:31.230
you're a side K Christian. And so you've probably

00:39:31.230 --> 00:39:35.210
got a desire that's good for your own people.

00:39:36.389 --> 00:39:39.070
And the fact that you didn't act on that is wonderful.

00:39:39.889 --> 00:39:42.030
But as a racist Christian, you're going to have

00:39:42.030 --> 00:39:45.389
to live washed and waiting for this special time

00:39:45.389 --> 00:39:48.429
when the redemption of your body comes. And Jesus

00:39:48.429 --> 00:39:50.789
will rectify these desires you have in your life.

00:39:51.399 --> 00:39:54.059
We don't treat any sin that way. We don't even

00:39:54.059 --> 00:39:56.300
treat heterosexual lust for pornography that

00:39:56.300 --> 00:40:00.539
way. So you come in, and I can't quit looking

00:40:00.539 --> 00:40:02.920
at lust. It's going to cost me my career and

00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:05.659
my family. I'm consumed by it. Well, look, friend,

00:40:06.460 --> 00:40:09.900
you're a lustful Christian, and what we've really

00:40:09.900 --> 00:40:12.559
got to do is just get you to, every time you

00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:14.440
want to look at something on your phone, just

00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:16.690
don't pick it up. and you're washed and waiting,

00:40:17.409 --> 00:40:19.590
someday you'll be redeemed from that. You know,

00:40:19.590 --> 00:40:23.130
I mean, we're scathing from evangelical pulpits

00:40:23.130 --> 00:40:26.449
about internet porn. Rightly so. We're scathing

00:40:26.449 --> 00:40:30.190
about racism from evangelical pulpits. Rightly

00:40:30.190 --> 00:40:33.929
so. But we treat same -sex attraction as evangelical

00:40:33.929 --> 00:40:36.590
special sin, and we turn them into a martyr class.

00:40:37.309 --> 00:40:41.650
They're like special... Sam Albury is this specially

00:40:41.650 --> 00:40:46.659
holy figure because he desires abominable things.

00:40:47.159 --> 00:40:49.760
He desires to do abominable things with his brothers

00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:52.840
and his neighbor, but because he's so holy that

00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:56.099
he won't act on it, that somehow gives him status,

00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:02.739
like he's achieved something. And again, it's

00:41:02.739 --> 00:41:04.960
moral insanity, and you see it as soon as you

00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:09.000
try to apply it to any other sin. It exposes

00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:12.719
and lays it bare. And something that's very freeing

00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:18.510
about this is that I was in a debate with a guy

00:41:18.510 --> 00:41:22.210
the other day, and he claims to have spoken all

00:41:22.210 --> 00:41:25.210
across the U .S. at Christian universities. Let's

00:41:25.210 --> 00:41:27.909
just be specific about this, because I think

00:41:27.909 --> 00:41:29.769
everybody ought to watch this interview. So it's

00:41:29.769 --> 00:41:33.150
on your podcast. Yeah, it's Peter Volk. All Truth

00:41:33.150 --> 00:41:35.230
is God's Truth is your podcast. It's a YouTube

00:41:35.230 --> 00:41:39.110
channel as well, right? Peter Volk, who has talked

00:41:39.110 --> 00:41:42.112
at Baptist Collegiate Ministries. Or you have...

00:41:42.110 --> 00:41:44.650
Reformed University Fellowship. Crusade, I think

00:41:44.650 --> 00:41:49.230
you did. Lipscomb. So this guy goes to do training

00:41:49.230 --> 00:41:52.409
on how Christians think about sexuality. So from

00:41:52.409 --> 00:41:57.369
there, just carry on. Yeah, he argued that he

00:41:57.369 --> 00:42:01.730
was a gay Christian and that it's not sin at

00:42:01.730 --> 00:42:07.369
all. But he was wanting to lay... homosexuals

00:42:07.369 --> 00:42:09.469
taking their lives at the feet of Christians

00:42:09.469 --> 00:42:12.329
like me that were saying, no, you're not gay.

00:42:12.909 --> 00:42:15.349
You have a sin pattern that Christ can change,

00:42:15.829 --> 00:42:19.389
which is what we say about every sin on earth.

00:42:20.449 --> 00:42:23.489
But that special sin, and so he's running around,

00:42:23.550 --> 00:42:27.010
he thinks that he's gay. And no wonder, if you

00:42:27.010 --> 00:42:28.769
travel the country telling everybody you're gay,

00:42:29.010 --> 00:42:31.309
guess what? You're never going to repent of that

00:42:31.309 --> 00:42:33.340
sin. I mean, that's just the fact you're talking

00:42:33.340 --> 00:42:36.059
about all the time. Yeah, you're proud of it.

00:42:36.059 --> 00:42:37.280
You're proud of it, thinking about it. And finding

00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:38.619
your identity unique. Well, I can't remember

00:42:38.619 --> 00:42:40.659
the quote exactly, but it's something like, it's

00:42:40.659 --> 00:42:42.900
very difficult to convince a man he's wrong when

00:42:42.900 --> 00:42:45.239
his income depends on being wrong. That's exactly

00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:48.619
right. That's Sam Albury. Sam Albury literally

00:42:48.619 --> 00:42:50.760
says, I wish I was married, I wish I had kids,

00:42:51.139 --> 00:42:53.500
but I can't because I have these attractions.

00:42:53.639 --> 00:42:56.860
I'm like, man, no, if you repent of them and

00:42:56.860 --> 00:42:59.420
pursue a godly woman, you can get married. You're

00:42:59.420 --> 00:43:03.690
not a eunuch. Like, you were able to get married

00:43:03.690 --> 00:43:06.510
and bear children. You refused to because you

00:43:06.510 --> 00:43:09.510
bought into this lie from the culture and your

00:43:09.510 --> 00:43:11.929
flesh. And it's very profitable. The Bible didn't

00:43:11.929 --> 00:43:14.670
tell you this. The Bible didn't tell you this.

00:43:15.429 --> 00:43:18.329
You know, your flesh has told you this and, you

00:43:18.329 --> 00:43:21.630
know, it's ridiculous. It really is utterly ridiculous.

00:43:22.750 --> 00:43:25.829
But Christians are just not willing to read the

00:43:25.829 --> 00:43:29.050
Scriptures. I mean, Paul... In Ephesians 5 .3,

00:43:29.090 --> 00:43:32.750
he says that impurity should not even be named

00:43:32.750 --> 00:43:36.269
among Christians, which impurity is any form

00:43:36.269 --> 00:43:40.250
of sexual morality in your heart. Like, that's

00:43:40.250 --> 00:43:42.429
not even supposed to be named among Christians.

00:43:43.349 --> 00:43:45.070
And to say, to run around calling yourself a

00:43:45.070 --> 00:43:47.710
gay Christian, or that, oh, I'm just, you know,

00:43:47.769 --> 00:43:52.269
I'm a battle porn, all this stuff, like, I really

00:43:52.269 --> 00:43:54.969
think the key and why the two great commandments

00:43:54.969 --> 00:43:57.650
are what they are. is that the way that the Lord

00:43:57.650 --> 00:44:00.050
sanctifies us is that you become what you think

00:44:00.050 --> 00:44:03.449
on. And you become what you believe, what you

00:44:03.449 --> 00:44:05.070
talk about all the time, what you think about

00:44:05.070 --> 00:44:08.230
all the time. And God tells us we're supposed

00:44:08.230 --> 00:44:11.809
to think of Him and others. And that's what purifies

00:44:11.809 --> 00:44:18.949
you. Well, to this point, my family is interested

00:44:18.949 --> 00:44:21.050
in Stranger Things. The new season has dropped,

00:44:21.050 --> 00:44:25.469
right? So the character who plays Will, started

00:44:25.469 --> 00:44:28.130
playing that character at a very young age. The

00:44:28.130 --> 00:44:30.050
Duffers have been pretty clear. Yeah, we, you

00:44:30.050 --> 00:44:32.309
know, we were building up to him coming out as

00:44:32.309 --> 00:44:35.369
gay for quite a while, right? Well, I remember

00:44:35.369 --> 00:44:37.570
before this season dropped, back when The Last

00:44:37.570 --> 00:44:40.110
of Us wrapped up, the actor who plays Will came

00:44:40.110 --> 00:44:43.190
out as gay. And my kids were talking to me about

00:44:43.190 --> 00:44:45.769
that. Millie, Bobby Brown, who plays Eleven,

00:44:46.449 --> 00:44:47.989
you know, she gave an interview that kind of

00:44:47.989 --> 00:44:49.150
taught me. She said, well, of course I knew he

00:44:49.150 --> 00:44:52.309
was gay. And I told my kids he had been paid

00:44:52.309 --> 00:44:55.750
in his most formative years. When his personality,

00:44:55.929 --> 00:44:57.289
his view of the world, everything's developing.

00:44:58.190 --> 00:45:02.590
To enter into a false identity of a homosexual,

00:45:03.750 --> 00:45:08.030
lo and behold, the fake overcame the authentic,

00:45:08.110 --> 00:45:12.630
or it shaped the authentic. This shouldn't surprise

00:45:12.630 --> 00:45:16.550
us. We should probably have federal laws against

00:45:16.550 --> 00:45:18.889
asking children to play homosexual characters.

00:45:19.030 --> 00:45:22.369
We should probably treat it as child abuse. So

00:45:22.369 --> 00:45:25.929
the point being, it's as relevant as the last

00:45:25.929 --> 00:45:29.090
culture -wide television show obsession we're

00:45:29.090 --> 00:45:32.389
going to have. Well, since gay marriage has been

00:45:32.389 --> 00:45:34.849
the law of the land, you've had an uptick of

00:45:34.849 --> 00:45:37.230
almost, I think it's three or four hundred percent.

00:45:37.710 --> 00:45:40.690
of people coming out as gay or trans. Yeah, because

00:45:40.690 --> 00:45:42.489
the law is designed to tell you what is good

00:45:42.489 --> 00:45:44.570
and what is not good, what's right and what's

00:45:44.570 --> 00:45:48.110
wrong. So, it totally upends the lie that you're

00:45:48.110 --> 00:45:50.650
born this way, which, you know, Gagnon proved

00:45:50.650 --> 00:45:53.329
that 23 years ago. Robert Gagnon. Robert Gagnon,

00:45:53.369 --> 00:45:57.130
his book, The Bible on Homosexual Practice, he

00:45:57.130 --> 00:46:00.550
showed that the percentages of homosexuality

00:46:00.550 --> 00:46:03.730
were like 700 % higher in the cities where it

00:46:03.730 --> 00:46:08.440
was praised. And those who were Educated in the

00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:11.280
universities were much more likely to be gay

00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:15.559
than those in rural communities Whatever your

00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:18.219
culture set celebrates your children will go

00:46:18.219 --> 00:46:22.760
up grow up to celebrate and to love and It's

00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:25.800
everywhere in pop culture You can't like right

00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:28.380
now even right now after all the stats, you know,

00:46:28.380 --> 00:46:31.340
it used to be like four percent now I think it's

00:46:31.340 --> 00:46:34.159
up to ten percent of the population. But when

00:46:34.159 --> 00:46:37.500
you turn on any TV show there's going to be a

00:46:37.500 --> 00:46:40.739
gay or trans character. And always in a favorable

00:46:40.739 --> 00:46:43.519
light. Yep. They're never the goofball, the screw

00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:46.619
up, the whatever. The villain. The villain. Yep.

00:46:47.019 --> 00:46:51.360
Yep. And it's, they're trying to train. children.

00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:55.199
And the only ones who are really standing against

00:46:55.199 --> 00:46:57.659
it are Bible -believing Christians. And we need

00:46:57.659 --> 00:47:00.139
to, because society is going to collapse. Lowest

00:47:00.139 --> 00:47:02.719
marriage rate in recorded American history, lowest

00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:05.340
birth rate in recorded American history, and

00:47:05.340 --> 00:47:08.059
homosexuals don't truly get married, because

00:47:08.059 --> 00:47:09.800
they can't become one flesh according to Genesis

00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:14.420
2, and they don't bear children. And so, what

00:47:14.420 --> 00:47:17.219
it's going to end up doing is destroying society,

00:47:17.260 --> 00:47:19.579
which, if you kick against God's design, that's

00:47:19.579 --> 00:47:22.130
what happens. You know, interesting development

00:47:22.130 --> 00:47:24.389
that we've seen here in the last few years is

00:47:24.389 --> 00:47:27.349
that there's been a reversal. It's not a 100

00:47:27.349 --> 00:47:29.550
% reversal, but there has been a significant

00:47:29.550 --> 00:47:32.190
rise in opposition to gay marriage. I don't know

00:47:32.190 --> 00:47:33.750
if you've seen those statistics. It's something,

00:47:34.469 --> 00:47:38.469
it's a slight majority are opposed now, whereas

00:47:38.469 --> 00:47:40.969
that was down to something, 30 something percent.

00:47:40.969 --> 00:47:42.730
I mean, we've lived in the wreckage of it long

00:47:42.730 --> 00:47:45.230
enough. Yeah, I wonder about that. Go ahead.

00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:47.639
Just the point that I think particularly with

00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:50.539
zoomers Yeah, yeah, they've lived in the chaos

00:47:50.539 --> 00:47:53.860
that opposed to burger fell world gave them and

00:47:53.860 --> 00:47:56.219
they're like Oh actually probably going back

00:47:56.219 --> 00:47:59.320
would be better. Yeah, it's like empirical Well,

00:47:59.340 --> 00:48:02.159
they bullied everybody overnight I became a bigot

00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:04.179
for something that Christians have always believed

00:48:04.179 --> 00:48:06.900
and they're brothers and sisters in Africa Lots

00:48:06.900 --> 00:48:08.280
of different places around the globe still to

00:48:08.280 --> 00:48:11.139
this day Believe those things. Well in my state

00:48:11.139 --> 00:48:12.820
I was in Kentucky at the time when it passed

00:48:12.820 --> 00:48:17.409
and we had voted as a state I had passed here

00:48:17.409 --> 00:48:20.190
by constitutional referendum by something like

00:48:20.190 --> 00:48:26.769
80 % to 20%. That was in 2008, something like

00:48:26.769 --> 00:48:28.429
that. That's why Bergefell had to do it from

00:48:28.429 --> 00:48:32.190
the federal level. Tennessee's a hot seat of

00:48:32.190 --> 00:48:40.050
LGBTQ. Nashville, Knoxville, Johnson City. Close

00:48:40.050 --> 00:48:43.349
to Asheville. The further you get from the farm,

00:48:44.619 --> 00:48:47.400
the less you can live according to natural law.

00:48:48.019 --> 00:48:50.519
And it doesn't press down on you. Like, Jeff,

00:48:50.579 --> 00:48:52.739
there's only certain ways you can breed those

00:48:52.739 --> 00:48:54.320
cows. You know, there's only certain ways you

00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:57.559
can grow those crops. And the natural law is

00:48:57.559 --> 00:49:00.460
pressing down on everyone. But whenever you get

00:49:00.460 --> 00:49:03.460
into the city, their food just magically shows

00:49:03.460 --> 00:49:05.260
up. And then disappears when they're done with

00:49:05.260 --> 00:49:06.880
it, right? Somebody comes in a truck to get it.

00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:09.679
And so they live in fairy -tale land because

00:49:09.679 --> 00:49:12.460
they live in the city. And if they lived out

00:49:12.460 --> 00:49:15.119
here, if everything was still agrarian, you know,

00:49:15.139 --> 00:49:17.179
if that was the primary job, we wouldn't even

00:49:17.179 --> 00:49:20.079
be discussing this stuff. Yeah, probably not.

00:49:20.780 --> 00:49:24.280
That's like day 33, moved to the country. Yeah,

00:49:24.360 --> 00:49:27.960
yeah, yeah. Because I mean, it's just, it's pretty,

00:49:28.099 --> 00:49:31.280
it's common sense stuff and you have to be educated

00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:33.760
out of it, you know, or live in fairy tale land

00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:36.739
to even argue these things. Well, we're being

00:49:36.739 --> 00:49:39.179
indoctrinated by fairytale and to with companies

00:49:39.179 --> 00:49:42.699
like Disney and absolutely just they have an

00:49:42.699 --> 00:49:48.280
agenda to promote these ideals and You just did

00:49:48.280 --> 00:49:54.980
a thing on X Jeff talking about wicked and Maleficent

00:49:54.980 --> 00:50:00.099
and all these stories that Twist the the good

00:50:00.099 --> 00:50:05.029
to bad and the bad to good and programming the

00:50:05.029 --> 00:50:08.530
heroes and the anti -heroes in certain lights.

00:50:09.670 --> 00:50:12.670
And it's just, it's a bad place. I used to love

00:50:12.670 --> 00:50:14.909
Disney growing up. Yeah. They weren't always

00:50:14.909 --> 00:50:17.090
this bad. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure that there's

00:50:17.090 --> 00:50:18.670
been problems for a little while, but we were

00:50:18.670 --> 00:50:21.250
just, you know, in my econ class, I asked the

00:50:21.250 --> 00:50:23.090
question, what do you guys think the most complex

00:50:23.090 --> 00:50:24.949
economic product is? We just got done reading

00:50:24.949 --> 00:50:27.230
an essay called Eye Pencil by Leonard Reed, which

00:50:27.230 --> 00:50:28.670
everybody should read. It's very short. You can

00:50:28.670 --> 00:50:31.239
find that online. And it's the life cycle of

00:50:31.239 --> 00:50:33.599
how a pencil is made. And his point is that it

00:50:33.599 --> 00:50:38.119
requires very remote, independent human cooperation

00:50:38.119 --> 00:50:40.340
in order to make the simplest thing we can think

00:50:40.340 --> 00:50:43.039
of, a pencil. And so I, you know, contrary to

00:50:43.039 --> 00:50:44.099
that, I said, what do you guys think the most

00:50:44.099 --> 00:50:46.719
complex economic product is? And somebody suggested

00:50:46.719 --> 00:50:49.280
a cruise ship, like a modern cruise ship. So

00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:51.719
I looked around and found a National Geographic

00:50:51.719 --> 00:50:55.960
episode on Disney cruise ship the new the new

00:50:55.960 --> 00:50:57.940
one which I think is out now but at the time

00:50:57.940 --> 00:51:02.039
this was recorded in 2021 and so It you know,

00:51:02.039 --> 00:51:03.880
they're working on it and there was there's several

00:51:03.880 --> 00:51:05.940
parts of it where they show the design behind

00:51:05.940 --> 00:51:08.139
the scenes and they're pulling all these older

00:51:08.139 --> 00:51:11.059
Animated bits from Cinderella and Bambi and like

00:51:11.059 --> 00:51:14.199
the the real older classics and I just you know

00:51:14.199 --> 00:51:17.159
It just really was almost moving how sad it was

00:51:17.159 --> 00:51:20.639
to see What the company used to be and where

00:51:20.639 --> 00:51:23.820
they used to focus on like making beautiful stories

00:51:23.820 --> 00:51:27.500
that were animated well that told truths and

00:51:27.500 --> 00:51:30.880
You know, where did they lose their way? You

00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:32.760
know, we're beating up on Disney. They're not

00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:35.239
the only ones doing that but it's that's the

00:51:35.239 --> 00:51:36.639
one that I think has had the most pronounced

00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:42.760
and and altitude downfall, I guess They've planted

00:51:42.760 --> 00:51:47.619
their flag. Yeah It's postmodernism where there's

00:51:47.619 --> 00:51:51.380
no absolute truth and my feelings are my truth.

00:51:52.219 --> 00:51:55.119
And now it's gotten to the point where my feelings

00:51:55.119 --> 00:51:59.219
are my truth, but you have to affirm it. And

00:51:59.219 --> 00:52:01.880
so I think that's why the, did you say the Zoomers

00:52:01.880 --> 00:52:04.920
are rebelling against it? Because it's, well,

00:52:04.940 --> 00:52:07.599
it's anti -common sense. Like it's anti - They're

00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:11.110
tired of the chaos. Yeah, yeah. This is kind

00:52:11.110 --> 00:52:12.889
of I mean getting back to your in your discussion

00:52:12.889 --> 00:52:16.250
with Peter Peter Valk, is that right? He I think

00:52:16.250 --> 00:52:19.710
that he eventually stormed off Which you should

00:52:19.710 --> 00:52:21.610
tune in for but the thing that really made it

00:52:21.610 --> 00:52:24.050
to where he was unwilling to continue was where

00:52:24.050 --> 00:52:26.690
you would you you decline to take responsibility

00:52:26.690 --> 00:52:31.469
for the the horrific suicide rates among LGBT

00:52:31.469 --> 00:52:34.849
people where he wanted he wants the church to

00:52:34.849 --> 00:52:37.010
accept at least a large portion of the blame

00:52:37.010 --> 00:52:40.750
for that phenomenon and I can't help but think

00:52:40.750 --> 00:52:42.630
that a lot of the programming we're seeing is

00:52:42.630 --> 00:52:45.889
a desperate attempt by people who are so lost

00:52:45.889 --> 00:52:48.690
and feel horrible about the lifestyle that they

00:52:48.690 --> 00:52:51.329
have. And they think if they could just convince

00:52:51.329 --> 00:52:53.829
everybody that it's good, that they would feel

00:52:53.829 --> 00:52:57.750
better. Yes. It's a gospel. It's a false gospel.

00:52:59.010 --> 00:53:02.070
And, you know, this Miniviscar podcast, you got

00:53:02.070 --> 00:53:04.789
to realize this is the kind of final rhetorical

00:53:04.789 --> 00:53:07.849
manipulation. You see it most pronounced with

00:53:07.849 --> 00:53:11.389
trans kids. Either let your kids mutilate themselves

00:53:11.389 --> 00:53:14.369
and sterilize themselves, or they're going to

00:53:14.369 --> 00:53:18.190
kill themselves. Let people desire abomination

00:53:18.190 --> 00:53:20.969
and pursue that, or they're going to kill themselves.

00:53:21.570 --> 00:53:24.389
And this is particularly aimed at parents. You

00:53:24.389 --> 00:53:25.989
get a little bit with educators, you get a little

00:53:25.989 --> 00:53:29.150
bit with it with educational apparatus stuff.

00:53:29.469 --> 00:53:31.309
The people under your authority are going to

00:53:31.309 --> 00:53:33.409
kill themselves if you're not on board with this.

00:53:33.789 --> 00:53:36.469
But it's really aimed at parents. If you don't

00:53:36.469 --> 00:53:39.230
let them find their identity and their sexual

00:53:39.230 --> 00:53:42.510
episodes, no matter how bizarre. I mean, we're,

00:53:42.510 --> 00:53:44.630
you know, we're past furries, like, whatever

00:53:44.630 --> 00:53:47.630
it is, they're gonna kill themselves. And so

00:53:47.630 --> 00:53:51.389
every parent who wants their child alive feels

00:53:51.389 --> 00:53:54.530
incredible pressure to say, well, yeah, I guess

00:53:54.530 --> 00:53:56.989
I would rather them be alive than dead. And that's

00:53:56.989 --> 00:53:58.809
why a Valk wants to lay that on your shoulders,

00:53:58.829 --> 00:54:02.210
because that's when, if you accept responsibility

00:54:02.210 --> 00:54:04.269
for those things, well, now you just have to

00:54:04.269 --> 00:54:06.659
do what they want. You just have to let them

00:54:06.659 --> 00:54:08.679
have a blank check hostage situation. Yeah, it's

00:54:08.679 --> 00:54:13.460
a hostage situation Yeah, voluntary voluntarily

00:54:13.460 --> 00:54:15.460
taking your own life and you want to blame somebody

00:54:15.460 --> 00:54:18.340
else whenever you're literally pursuing an idol

00:54:18.340 --> 00:54:22.980
you're saying I'm I must be gay or else I must

00:54:22.980 --> 00:54:25.760
have this sin or else and you must approve it

00:54:25.760 --> 00:54:30.039
or else Or else I'm going and it's not a hatred

00:54:30.039 --> 00:54:35.119
of self. It's a it's a it's a selfish Like, it's

00:54:35.119 --> 00:54:38.500
a pursuing what you want above loving God, above

00:54:38.500 --> 00:54:40.659
loving your neighbor. I mean, it's like the...

00:54:40.659 --> 00:54:44.239
Any other natural obligation, right? I will have

00:54:44.239 --> 00:54:47.460
life on my own terms, or not at all. Or not at

00:54:47.460 --> 00:54:51.019
all. That's exactly right. And the way out of

00:54:51.019 --> 00:54:54.219
it is exactly what argued in this book. It's

00:54:54.219 --> 00:54:56.719
the way out of all sin. Love God, love your neighbor.

00:54:57.579 --> 00:55:00.659
I mean, it really is that simple. Live your life

00:55:00.659 --> 00:55:03.469
for loving God and loving your neighbor. And

00:55:03.469 --> 00:55:05.909
you'll flourish. And if you don't, you won't.

00:55:06.110 --> 00:55:08.849
That's just a fact. Yeah, so Jared, just to play

00:55:08.849 --> 00:55:11.210
devil's advocate, because I know this comes up,

00:55:12.650 --> 00:55:16.170
you're not advocating that sinless perfectionism

00:55:16.170 --> 00:55:18.889
can be attained in this life. No, the flesh is

00:55:18.889 --> 00:55:22.110
sin, and it's with you in this life. And it will

00:55:22.110 --> 00:55:25.150
move, and that's sin. But you don't ever have

00:55:25.150 --> 00:55:27.880
to walk in the flesh. you don't ever have to

00:55:27.880 --> 00:55:30.780
submit to it. And if you starve it and call it

00:55:30.780 --> 00:55:33.599
sin, it will starve itself to no effect and move

00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:36.260
a different direction. The reason why you battle

00:55:36.260 --> 00:55:38.400
the same sin over and over again is because you

00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:40.639
were tempted by it. There's a part of you that

00:55:40.639 --> 00:55:42.940
wants it. And to the point when you no longer

00:55:42.940 --> 00:55:45.719
want that particular sin, it will move to something

00:55:45.719 --> 00:55:49.619
else. You can mortify particular emotions of

00:55:49.619 --> 00:55:52.559
original sin. And it's biblical. It's Colossians

00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:56.449
3, it's Romans 8. I mean, Paul's never talking

00:55:56.449 --> 00:55:59.269
about his sexuality. None of the New Testament

00:55:59.269 --> 00:56:03.010
writers. And how many Christians today, that's

00:56:03.010 --> 00:56:04.510
what they're talking about constantly, what they're

00:56:04.510 --> 00:56:08.010
coming and battling constantly. Well, why? Well,

00:56:08.010 --> 00:56:09.730
because they gave their hearts to it at some

00:56:09.730 --> 00:56:12.449
point. They've given it permission. Yes, they

00:56:12.449 --> 00:56:14.489
have. And that's the way the spiritual realm

00:56:14.489 --> 00:56:19.530
works. It's when you grant permission to a spirit

00:56:19.530 --> 00:56:24.190
of something, you give it legal access to that.

00:56:24.280 --> 00:56:26.480
Like the vampire being asked into the house,

00:56:26.480 --> 00:56:30.019
right? Right. Right. You know, these things,

00:56:30.900 --> 00:56:32.800
particularly with Christians, can't force the

00:56:32.800 --> 00:56:35.940
door, right? Like if you open the door, and we

00:56:35.940 --> 00:56:37.719
do, I mean, there's a reason why the vampire

00:56:37.719 --> 00:56:39.159
myth is they can't come in unless you invite

00:56:39.159 --> 00:56:43.119
them. There's a reason why the fictional stories

00:56:43.119 --> 00:56:45.880
of demons are like, you do something to summon

00:56:45.880 --> 00:56:50.320
it to you. And then it has access. And now, you

00:56:50.320 --> 00:56:53.960
know, in the movie or story, you've got to figure

00:56:53.960 --> 00:56:56.219
out the way to get the door closed again. And

00:56:56.219 --> 00:57:01.900
there's a kernel of truth there that we give

00:57:01.900 --> 00:57:06.460
specific sins permission to linger and we have

00:57:06.460 --> 00:57:11.380
to slam the door shut. It's Psalm 115 and Romans

00:57:11.380 --> 00:57:15.360
1. You know, in Psalm 115, they worship idols

00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:18.699
and then they become like them. And in Romans

00:57:18.699 --> 00:57:21.900
1, they worship the creature. And then they,

00:57:21.900 --> 00:57:23.960
because they've turned worship upside down, they're

00:57:23.960 --> 00:57:25.340
not worshiping the Creator, they're worshiping

00:57:25.340 --> 00:57:28.019
the creature. Now their sexuality is upside down.

00:57:28.099 --> 00:57:30.500
And then they dive into all kinds, all manner

00:57:30.500 --> 00:57:34.820
of sin. And so it's reciprocal. So if you give

00:57:34.820 --> 00:57:39.000
in to a sin, then you become like that sin, right?

00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:42.820
Like if you submit to it, as Jason was talking

00:57:42.820 --> 00:57:46.889
about, then... You literally become more like

00:57:46.889 --> 00:57:50.449
it and it slowly dehumanize your D images you

00:57:50.449 --> 00:57:52.849
because you're imaging Satan Yeah, and we've

00:57:52.849 --> 00:57:56.070
seen this with I mean, you know in the 80s homosexuality

00:57:56.070 --> 00:57:58.570
went through a major image upgrade right because

00:57:58.570 --> 00:58:01.940
they were They were known back then as being

00:58:01.940 --> 00:58:05.280
kind of this gross party crowd that was doing

00:58:05.280 --> 00:58:07.260
unmentionable things. And they were fine with

00:58:07.260 --> 00:58:09.719
that. But they realized if we ever want acceptance,

00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:11.400
if we ever want to be able to do this without

00:58:11.400 --> 00:58:13.179
having to worry about getting arrested and stuff,

00:58:13.579 --> 00:58:15.400
we're going to have to change things. So that's

00:58:15.400 --> 00:58:17.599
when they came up with the like love is love

00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:22.300
kind of stuff. That what actually goes on didn't

00:58:22.300 --> 00:58:25.280
change. It was just a it was just a veneer. And

00:58:25.280 --> 00:58:27.179
we've seen that now that it's out in the open.

00:58:27.420 --> 00:58:30.079
Now people can actually watch the degrading where

00:58:30.079 --> 00:58:36.179
someone goes from just sort of gay to like a

00:58:36.179 --> 00:58:41.099
lunatic. Trans like they just it gets extremely

00:58:41.099 --> 00:58:44.619
Warped and it's just visible like you can just

00:58:44.619 --> 00:58:47.139
see it in the countenance of people Men in his

00:58:47.139 --> 00:58:49.940
late 20s as to wear adult diapers. Yeah, right.

00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:52.039
Like I mean, it's degrading I mean cat literal

00:58:52.039 --> 00:58:55.320
castration. Yeah And dressing like an animal

00:58:55.320 --> 00:58:58.400
acting like an animal. Yeah, just you know, just

00:58:58.400 --> 00:59:01.260
it's to the point of there's been a major effort

00:59:01.260 --> 00:59:04.960
to curtail footage from the San Francisco Pride

00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:08.139
Parade on social media and other places. Several

00:59:08.139 --> 00:59:10.880
years ago, there was a video of a man urinating

00:59:10.880 --> 00:59:12.900
in another man's mouth during the parade. Oh

00:59:12.900 --> 00:59:15.280
my goodness. And once that happened and went

00:59:15.280 --> 00:59:19.340
viral, we've got to get that stuff off the airwaves

00:59:19.340 --> 00:59:22.960
because it undercuts the veneer that Terry's

00:59:22.960 --> 00:59:24.920
talking about. We're just like y 'all. It's just

00:59:24.920 --> 00:59:27.719
same sex rather than heterosexual. You watch

00:59:27.719 --> 00:59:30.059
guys in dog collars abusing each other on the

00:59:30.059 --> 00:59:35.500
street. Makes that look real false. So our TV

00:59:35.500 --> 00:59:38.340
homosexuals are clean cut. They look like you.

00:59:38.460 --> 00:59:40.559
They don't talk with a lisp. Have a great wit.

00:59:40.559 --> 00:59:43.679
Yeah, they... Kind of Oscar Wilde. They're very

00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:46.460
funny. Yeah, and that's the presentation that

00:59:46.460 --> 00:59:48.420
they prefer, but when you actually see the real

00:59:48.420 --> 00:59:52.840
thing, which I hope you don't, you know that

00:59:52.840 --> 00:59:55.760
it's not what they want to present. It's not

00:59:55.760 --> 00:59:57.119
the public image they want you to see. Yeah,

00:59:57.559 --> 00:59:59.920
and even the campaign's been successful enough

00:59:59.920 --> 01:00:02.659
that... I do think that they're kind of in a

01:00:02.659 --> 01:00:05.059
position of not realizing how much they're saying.

01:00:05.780 --> 01:00:08.219
So if you look at the... And I realize there's

01:00:08.219 --> 01:00:11.639
differences between same -sex individual and

01:00:11.639 --> 01:00:13.219
drag queen, although there's a lot of overlap.

01:00:14.099 --> 01:00:17.500
But the drag queens, dragon queen probably works,

01:00:17.980 --> 01:00:20.079
the drag queens who are doing drag queen story

01:00:20.079 --> 01:00:26.099
hour look like cartoon monsters. They do. There's

01:00:26.099 --> 01:00:29.019
something about that movement that wants to grind

01:00:29.019 --> 01:00:33.900
your face. in the obscenity of it. And I do wonder

01:00:33.900 --> 01:00:35.820
if Drag Queen's story hour wasn't a place of

01:00:35.820 --> 01:00:37.960
them overplaying their hand. Yeah, it seems to

01:00:37.960 --> 01:00:41.639
have not gone as well long -term. Something that...

01:00:41.639 --> 01:00:44.099
So Rosario Butterfield speaks at her local school

01:00:44.099 --> 01:00:48.739
board trying to persuade them to not allow these

01:00:48.739 --> 01:00:51.199
trans... And if people don't know her, so she

01:00:51.199 --> 01:00:54.719
was a lesbian literature professor at Syracuse.

01:00:54.719 --> 01:00:57.579
Syracuse tenured, eventually was radically converted,

01:00:57.739 --> 01:01:00.699
now is a pastor's wife. tries to help people

01:01:00.699 --> 01:01:03.320
in her former circumstances. So she said at those

01:01:03.320 --> 01:01:06.659
school board meetings, people who oppose her,

01:01:07.179 --> 01:01:09.179
it's amazing how many young people are walking

01:01:09.179 --> 01:01:12.940
with canes because whenever you put those chemicals

01:01:12.940 --> 01:01:15.360
into your body, like the opposite of what you're

01:01:15.360 --> 01:01:19.440
designed for, it destroys your bones. And so

01:01:19.440 --> 01:01:22.440
so many people who are trans walking around with

01:01:22.440 --> 01:01:25.019
canes, young people, because their bodies are

01:01:25.019 --> 01:01:28.030
being destroyed by literally what they are doing,

01:01:28.150 --> 01:01:31.210
the fairy tale they're trying to live. And nobody,

01:01:31.309 --> 01:01:33.070
you don't ever see that. You don't ever see those

01:01:33.070 --> 01:01:36.369
warnings. Look how free they are. So I think

01:01:36.369 --> 01:01:39.070
we're probably running up against time here.

01:01:40.469 --> 01:01:43.369
Jared, so 33 days to freedom from lust. I'll

01:01:43.369 --> 01:01:45.369
just say for the record, I think John Owen's

01:01:45.369 --> 01:01:49.010
mortification of sin is maybe the most practical,

01:01:49.010 --> 01:01:51.670
best thing written in the church on dealing with

01:01:51.670 --> 01:01:54.090
sin. I'm going to put this as number two, and

01:01:54.090 --> 01:01:55.880
I'm not doing that because I'm your buddy. I

01:01:55.880 --> 01:01:58.559
just really believe in this book. What's the

01:01:58.559 --> 01:02:00.719
cheapest purchase price for a book like this?

01:02:00.980 --> 01:02:04.179
Yeah, you can buy it on Amazon. If you want bulk

01:02:04.179 --> 01:02:07.400
prices, find me on Twitter or find me at drjaredmoore

01:02:07.400 --> 01:02:11.280
.com, and I can get you bulk prices at cheaper

01:02:11.280 --> 01:02:13.800
prices. And I've got a curriculum that goes with

01:02:13.800 --> 01:02:16.739
it where you can teach this in your church, your

01:02:16.739 --> 01:02:20.139
small group, your men's ministry, Sunday school,

01:02:20.659 --> 01:02:22.139
where you can just walk them through everything

01:02:22.139 --> 01:02:24.539
that we've talked about, but it'll be at a very

01:02:24.889 --> 01:02:27.889
you know, G -rated level to our folks, even teenagers,

01:02:28.110 --> 01:02:31.050
your youth group. This book has been designed

01:02:31.050 --> 01:02:33.989
for even a 10 -year -old fifth grader to read,

01:02:34.329 --> 01:02:38.170
and so I hope it helps everyone. I especially

01:02:38.170 --> 01:02:41.650
want it to get to young people so that they can,

01:02:42.650 --> 01:02:44.929
right before they hit puberty, you know, and

01:02:44.929 --> 01:02:49.369
those desires for marriage are beginning to help.

01:02:49.559 --> 01:02:51.860
shape them in such a way to where the flesh isn't

01:02:51.860 --> 01:02:55.079
twisting God's good design. And so I want to

01:02:55.079 --> 01:02:57.500
encourage you to go purchase it, and you can

01:02:57.500 --> 01:03:00.280
also read it on Kindle, and there's paperback

01:03:00.280 --> 01:03:02.019
hardcover. But I just wanted to benefit folks.

01:03:02.019 --> 01:03:04.139
Well, listener, I'm going to go further. You

01:03:04.139 --> 01:03:07.820
do need to contact Jared for bulk pricing, because

01:03:07.820 --> 01:03:09.679
there should be at least 10 copies of this on

01:03:09.679 --> 01:03:13.179
every church foyer in America. Just laying around

01:03:13.179 --> 01:03:15.320
for people to pick up, because these kind of

01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:18.159
sins don't, or they often don't manifest themselves.

01:03:19.139 --> 01:03:21.739
publicly early on. And so these kind of books

01:03:21.739 --> 01:03:23.800
need to just be in circulation in your church.

01:03:24.139 --> 01:03:25.960
So the person who thinks they're hiding this

01:03:25.960 --> 01:03:30.059
in encounters it and finds freedom from it and

01:03:30.059 --> 01:03:32.780
then brings the resources of the church to bear

01:03:32.780 --> 01:03:36.820
on as well. So please listen to me. I'm not making

01:03:36.820 --> 01:03:39.519
a commission off of this. Ten copies of this

01:03:39.519 --> 01:03:43.260
should be on your church's whatever tables in

01:03:43.260 --> 01:03:46.579
the four -year by the time that the soonest that

01:03:46.579 --> 01:03:48.639
you can make that happen. Thanks for being here,

01:03:48.719 --> 01:03:50.019
Jared. Appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks for having

01:03:50.019 --> 01:03:52.860
me, fellas. Yeah. Thank you. We'll get back to

01:03:52.860 --> 01:03:56.000
it again very soon, but thank you guys for joining

01:03:56.000 --> 01:03:58.860
the Men of Issachar. Well, I hope you enjoyed

01:03:58.860 --> 01:04:03.360
this podcast. Like and subscribe, and we're going

01:04:03.360 --> 01:04:06.500
to leave you with another song from my good friend

01:04:06.500 --> 01:04:31.000
Marcus Hill, Holding Up Fences. From the look

01:04:31.000 --> 01:04:39.659
on your face That you'd walk out the door And

01:04:39.659 --> 01:04:49.340
you'd drive away You packed your bags And I watched

01:04:49.340 --> 01:04:57.320
you leave Now I miss you so much it hurts And

01:04:57.320 --> 01:05:06.679
I can hardly You mama thinks I'm crazy Cause

01:05:06.679 --> 01:05:32.050
I stop and stay I'll be holding this fence till

01:05:32.050 --> 01:05:40.789
the day you come back home Every morning I wait

01:05:40.789 --> 01:05:48.030
just to dream you're around But I hear you've

01:05:48.030 --> 01:06:01.909
been busy painting up this town Sweet child of

01:06:01.909 --> 01:06:09.429
mine And every evening I pray God protects you

01:06:09.429 --> 01:06:17.389
and keeps you alive Your mama thinks I'm crazy

01:06:17.389 --> 01:07:17.329
Cause I stop and stay Your grace has no end And

01:07:17.329 --> 01:07:22.389
I will come running When I see you come round

01:07:22.389 --> 01:07:31.190
that bend Your mama thinks I'm crazy Cause I'll

01:07:31.190 --> 01:07:32.789
stop instead