Buckle up, we have a doozy of a show for you
today. This episode is not quite as lighthearted
as most of our other episodes and we tackle some
harder issues that are heavily impacting our
society today. Sexuality, lust, desiring sin,
being tempted by sin, striving against sinful
desires. These are some of the topics that affect
everyone whether they realize it or not. And
we say some hard things that aren't being talked
about in most religious circles. And we address
some issues that aren't PC to discuss. We very
well may ruffle some feathers with this one,
but I sincerely think that we need to speak the
truth in love. And please believe that we are
coming from a place of love and not of anger
or spite. And I trust these three other gentlemen
that are gathered for this discussion. And I
think they have been blessed with the intellect
and understanding, and been faithful to steward
those gifts so that they have a deep understanding
of these subjects. So join us for this meaningful
dialogue about some thorny subjects, and I hope
you enjoy it as much as I did. Dr. Jared Moore,
Terry Gant, Jeff Wright, and myself, Jason Gall,
are striving to be men of Issacharra. And before
we get into everything, I have a quick subject
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Thanks and let's get into the conversation. Welcome,
everyone, to episode four of Men of Issachar
podcast. We have a special guest today, Dr. Jared
Moore. We're gonna discuss his new book, and
let's get into it, guys. Well, if you don't mind
if I jump in, I think if anybody's familiar with
Dr. Moore's work, you may have heard it said
that we've been friends for a long time. This
is published under Coram Deo Media, which is
something we started with the Pop Culture Coram
Deo podcast. I've kind of famously said the first
time I saw Jared, I hated him. I met him on a
basketball court. I thought I was pretty good.
I thought this guy could be better than me. Still
not sure what the case was there. But nonetheless,
eventually we became fast friends. And I've kind
of followed the course of his work pretty closely,
not just because he's my friend, but because
I think he's one of the more important voices
in evangelicalism nowadays and is dealing with
a topic that... I think almost all of my adult
life has been treated poorly, handled unhelpfully.
And so Jared has a kind of singular helpful voice
on this topic as well. Jared, the book's 33 Days
to Freedom from Lust. You have a preceding book
called Lust of the Flesh dealing with sort of
the historic and reformed perspective on the
sin of lust and what's healthy. Since we're talking
about 33 days, how did this book come to be?
So, this book, the source of it is just what
I do in counseling with folks. In your pastoral
ministry? Pastoral ministry. And just encouraging
them to thank God's thoughts after Him, to show
them that sanctification is possible, that you
are enabled by the Holy Spirit, if you're a believer,
to mortify particular emotions of original sin.
in your heart, be it lust or any other sin. Now,
the flesh in this life does have to move, but
it doesn't have to move the same particular direction
your whole life. Let me actually put a pause
there, because I think in some ways, if this
is a new conversation, maybe people don't understand
some of the stuff we're casually referencing.
When you're talking about the flesh, you're talking
about fallen human nature. Yeah, fallen human
nature. And it's going to act. When it moves,
what you're talking about is your flesh is going
to... seek some kind of action. Yeah, Romans
7, your flesh is going to move in this life.
Paul calls it sin repeatedly. And when you get
saved, all your sin is imputed to Christ, but
what is left in you is still morally culpable
sin. And so, when you're aware of it, you need
to confess it, and you need to rejoice it. Let's
say that you have an evil impulse for something
and you don't act on it. you should rejoice that
you didn't act on it and you should also confess
for having wanted to. And a lot of what's going
on today is the Pelagian notion that it's only
sin if you act on it. Yeah, so Pelagius is a
bad guy. Yeah, a bad guy. He argued that basically
it wasn't evil until you acted on it. And Roman
Catholicism teaches that baptism takes original
sin away. and then it is only new sin whenever
you submit to it. But today, largely, people
are not even arguing that Christ takes it away,
which is what Rome would say, that through baptism,
through the priestly order, that your original
sin is taken away. And thus, when it creates
new sin, you have to confess that. And they have
a whole sacramental system. Go confess to a priest
and do the Mass. Read the Rosary and do the things.
It's like infusing grace into you through the
priestly order. But as Christians today, it's
been dominant that, you know, they've misunderstood
what temptation is. They've misunderstood what
morally culpable sin is. And when you start pressing
people on this, usually they come to the right
conclusions. When you start making it heinous
sin that they hate and don't tolerate, you know.
I heard one pastor in New York City, 30 seconds
later, so he says, homosexuality in your heart's
not sin. 30 seconds later, he says he's rebuking
hypocrisy and Christians. Oh, yeah, and he says
if you find it in your heart you it's sin and
you have to get rid of it you have to repent
and It's pretty wild whenever you hear guys and
I mean almost the same like sentence say well
homosexuality in your hearts not sin, but everything
else is and Let me I saw I want to come back
to that in just a moment. Terry who is up until
this point been silent so far. I have been. Yeah,
I've been taking it all in. Yeah. He usually
starts one of these episodes with an anecdote.
And there is a particularly encouraging anecdote
about how the physical form of 33 Days to Freedom
from Lust came to be. Good -looking hardcover
volume we're looking at here. I think you can
also get it in paperback. But how did this book
physically come to be, Jared? Yeah, so I just
started writing it on a daily basis, took me
nine months to write, mainly because the poem's
in there. But the thought is, how do you get
these, how do you get truth into your bones?
You know, and it's through repetition. If you
have a lust problem, you've got a love for God
problem, and a love for your neighbor problem,
and a love for yourself problem. And so how do
you turn all that on its head? Well, you exalt
God and get Him as far up there as you can get
Him where He actually is. I mean, He's with us
as well, but He came a great distance to save
us. And a lot of folks don't really understand
that. Jesus is their buddy. And yeah, He's our
friend, but He's Lord. And, you know, He's the
Creator of all things. And so I try to magnify,
you know, like the first 20 days are... focusing
on who God is and His beauty. And if you're going
to expel any sin from your heart, it's through
a new affection. You have to have a greater affection
for God than you do for your sin. Who's the Puritan,
the explosive power of a new affection? Is it
Chalmers? Chalmers comes to my mind. That's a
great book. That's kind of the thesis. Yeah,
that's the, okay, if Chalmers, that notion of
how, you know, the power of a new affection,
basically the expulsive power of a new affection,
that if you have greater affection for God than
you do for your sin, particularly lust, then
you will hate lust. Like, like one fella in an
interview asked me, you know, well, what are,
I noticed you didn't have any practical steps
in your, and I said, well, you know, if, if,
if you're trying to get somebody not to murder,
you don't have to give them practical steps to
stop loving murder. You tell them to repent and
love God and live his ethics. Is the lack of
practicality a comment on your previous book,
Lust of the Flesh? Because this seems an imminently
practical. Well, he was meaning like steps like
get rid of this, bounce your eyes, stuff like
that. Conditionings. Yeah, and you don't have
to do that when you love the Lord. Throw obstacles
in the way. Yeah, yeah. But the reason why you've
got to do all that is because your heart still
wants lust. The purpose of this book is to get
you to the point where you no longer want it.
So you're not trying to throw a router away.
No. Sorry. Would you say that that's something
else? I mean, that would be outside the scope
of your book. But if somebody is in a bad spot
with this, they would need to accept your recommendation
going through this, working on the things that
you suggest. Should they also think about taking
practical steps, like covenant eyes? or just
an accountability relationship, other things
that would be an obstacle to, and this isn't
specifically porn use, but it is about lust,
which is of course connected. So lust doesn't
require a router, but is that something that
you'd recommend? If I was to come to you in counseling,
would you want to assess those kinds of practical
needs in addition to this? Potentially, but you've
got to get to a point where you can live in this
world like a normal, you know... like everybody
else says, like if Jesus had a phone and a router,
it wouldn't be an issue. And I don't think it
would be an issue for the apostles or the prophets.
And so what's the issue ultimately? It's the
heart. It's the fact that, and I think that's
what Jesus is getting at in Matthew 5, when he
says to look at a woman with lust as adultery,
he's telling them, and some of the commentators
argue this, that You desire lust because you
desire adultery in your heart because you have
an adulterous heart And so what were the goal
is not just to purge lust The the goal is to
purge or to expel an adulterous heart for your
heart to change So how does your heart change?
Well when you get saved you no longer want to
live for the world you want to live for Christ
and sometimes the Lord immediately takes like
habitual sin away, the drunk wakes up and is
no longer, never desires alcohol again. But in
most cases, God gives us the Holy Spirit and
the means of grace, so the word, the local church,
prayer, just thinking on the word, singing the
Lord's table together, all those things to gradually
conform us to the image of Christ as we believe.
So would you say that I mean, lust is a term,
and we're here assuming that by this you mean
sexual lust, but lust can be applied in a more
general way. Do you think that this book could
be applied to a number of besetting sins? Absolutely.
Any besetting sin in your heart. And on the final
page, I make a suggestion, if you've not seen
any headway on your lust in your heart, then
maybe you do need to get rid of the internet,
your phone, all these things until you get to
a point. to where you can be strong enough to
where you won't be tempted by just having those
things. Well, in my own pastoral ministry, and
even really in my own sanctification, you know,
if you're trying to help someone break a heroin
addiction, you need to get them away from the
dealer, right? Yeah. You got to quit going to
see your heroin dealer, even if he was your best
buddy in middle school. And so I do think there's
sort of a baby steps. grammar issue to doing
some of those things, making lifestyle changes.
But I don't want to do that in a way that gets
in the way of what you're saying. It's ultimately
about your appetites. It's about your affections.
The things that you want to love and that captivate
your attention, right? That said, I'm going to
pause here one more time because I'm trying to
get something on the record. I'm specifically
asking you for the anecdote about the patron
who helped get this book produced. Cause I think
that's encouraging to people. So I was putting,
I was designing the book cover myself, putting
it on Twitter and people were voting on it. They
hated every one of them that I made. And my kids
loved it. And I'd be sitting there and be like,
man, this is good. And I put it on there. And
I mean, like, I think the highest I got was like
seven percent, 200 votes. Seven percent liked
it. No graphic design. No, not at all. I thought
it was, but no, not even close. So a former homosexual
who evidently read my last book or appreciated
some of the work I've written, who's walking
faithfully with the Lord, volunteered. reached
out to a graphic designer who does it for a living
and said he'll pay for it. And so he, not only
for this cover, but for the leader guide that
goes with the curriculum, he paid for that, paid
for this. I mean, so an anonymous, I still don't
know who it is, but it's really cool how the
Lord works those things out. Yeah, I just think
that is so encouraging because specifically Again,
we don't want to reduce this to sexual lust.
But part of my problem with evangelicalism in
my adult years, particularly for the last decade,
is that they treat your sexual appetites as an
irremovable feature of your personality. And
so there's this idea that it'll never be different.
And yet your work, bringing Scripture to bear
on the topic, has already produced these stories
of men or, you know, whoever it is saying, you
know, actually I've experienced real meaningful
gospel change by just believing that scripture
is credible, it's sufficient, and lo and behold,
I've got some meaningful change in my life over
it, right? So just to catch everybody up to this
point, everybody in this room knows Jared. How
long have you been pastoring? 25 years. Okay,
so started off in Crossville, Saudi Daisy, Houstonville,
Kentucky, back to Crossville now, did a Ph .D.
at Southern Seminary in Systematics, Systematic
Theology. I remember you initially were talking
about doing something on common grace, that door
didn't open. What led you to this shift? So your
Ph .D. was on concupiscence. Could you define
concupiscence for us and then could you tell
us How did that shift happen? Were you moved
into this arena? Yeah, so I wanted to write on
common grace, particularly the Noahic covenant
and its relation to the atonement. And my...
Nerd alert! My advisor approved every prospectus
I submitted, but the two, you have to get three
professors and two of the other professors, who
I will not name, they rejected every one of them.
And so for a year I was trying to get that passed
and they finally told me, look, We'll give you
a TGM and you can go somewhere else and write
this dissertation, or you can change your topic.
And I wanted to write a book against the side
B gay Christian movement. Could you explain that
real quick? Yeah, these are the folks who say
that they're gay, but they're celibate, and homosexuality
in their heart is not sin. Would it be accurate
to say that they go to some sort of disordered
good? So I'm thinking of Sam Albury, Wesley Hill.
an example listener would be, well, as a man,
I desire deep and authentic male friendships.
So my appetite, my same -sex appetite is just
a disordering of this good that I want to have
male friendships, right? And so there was this
idea that it was at its core something good,
but it become disordered somewhere along the
way. That's sort of the side B. Kind of move?
Yeah, it's just empty rhetoric. They're changing
the definitions of everything. Even Wesley Hill
supposedly was practicing what he later wrote
in his book, and he fell in love with his best
friend. That should have been a scandal. He should
have been removed from any form of ministry.
He couldn't have been ordained, but none of that.
It's wild to believe at 2025, but I think Wesley
was advocating for lifelong, monogamous... Covenant
friendships. Covenant friendships that involve
things like cuddling on the couch while you watched
a movie. And lo and behold, that kind of friendship...
Right. Everybody in here just shuddered. That
kind of friendship turned into him falling in
love with the person. I mean well put that in
a heterosexual context Yeah, what a ridiculous
thing to claim that you can do exactly. Mm -hmm.
I mean, but that Again, it sounds so absurd.
Yeah, but that was the dominant thinking on same
-sex attraction from like 2010 to today. Yeah.
Well, that all comes out of, and I'm glad you
brought up concupiscence, because this is one
of the places where I think evangelicals have
been really lost in the sauce for a while. Because
I can remember growing up hearing, temptation
isn't sin. It's only sin if you do it. The devil
tempts you. It's all his fault. And so, there's
a… You know, it could have been slightly more
nuanced than that when I heard it, and that's
just the takeaway that I had, but that's the
issue, I think. They're telling students, young
people who aren't mature enough to understand
that whatever your desires are in your heart
aren't actually sinned. And they didn't relate
it to necessarily sexual matters. It could be
anything. But teenagers, as often, it probably
is sexual matters. But that was the takeaway
of like, well, as long as you don't do it, then
you're winning. Like you're winning against the
temptation. Like you've managed to resist the
temptation. And so we were all kind of brought
up, at least I was, in this idea that whatever
temptations come along aren't really your fault
and you don't have to do anything about them
except resist the actual. outworking of those
things in the world. And lo and behold, when
we all got a computer to put in our pocket. Sure.
And then you go downstream from that, and now
you've got these guys saying, well, I am tempted,
but the version of resistance is that I don't
go all the way. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I don't
mean to be crass, but like Wesley, he was like,
stop at second base, right? And of course it's
a disaster. But I did ask you to define concubusence.
We're talking about, could you just tell us what
concubusence is? Yeah, it's any Any longing in
you against God or against His design, His law,
any evil impulse, it's what's left over of original
sin in Christians. We'd call it the old man.
The old man. The flesh. The flesh. It is sin
and it can only produce sin. That's the thing.
These guys will argue that homosexuality is a
result of the fall. And then the next breath,
they'll say, you need to stored your sexuality,
which is telling folks to stored their sin, which
is the opposite of scripture. If listeners are
familiar with the Re -Voice, there was a conference
apparatus that built up around the Side B movement
that tried to normalize this stuff. And I remember
one of the conference breakout sessions that
caught everybody's attention a while back was
what products of gay culture will be found in
the New Jerusalem. This is how intrinsic they
think the goodness of the root of their same
-sex appetites are. That some product of it is
going to find itself in the city that Jesus visibly
rules in eternity. Nate Collins, who's the president
of Revoice, actually argued that you might even
be gay in heaven. I mean, they think that you
can redeem it. What they do is they separate
same -sex attraction into same -sex attraction,
which is the desire for same -sex friendship
and the desire for same -sex beauty, they say,
and same -sex sexual attraction. They argue that
the same -sex sexual attraction is sin. But the
same -sex attraction can be redeemed and aimed
at good things and holy things. And so, when
I was in seminary, I had a friend, mutual friend,
you know him. who was talking about Wesley Hill,
like, go listen to this guy. And he's talking
about Washington waiting and how he's gay, but
he's waiting on the redemption of his body. And
I was listening to him. I was like, man, there
is no way this is right. So it's all empty rhetoric
because Genesis 2, what they're advocating for
at the base level is they're looking at men the
way that Eve looked at Adam, which is upside
down. This is common sense. This is what Christians
have always understood on this issue, that from
the root of any evil, it's your flesh warring
against the Spirit. You're warring against the
law of God. Oftentimes people ask, well, have
I sinned when they should be asking, have I been
obedient? Because if you haven't been obedient
from your heart, you've sinned. Well, I don't
know what listeners' background is with this
material. But you were talking about Nate Collins.
He did his PhD at Southern Baptist Theological
Seminary. So the flagship Southern Baptist Theological
Seminary. This is Nate Collins on Re -Voice.
We're talking about Sam Albury. We're talking
about Wesley Hill. I don't know about Wesley's
publication record, but Crossway loves Sam Albury.
You know, if you have an ESV study Bible, that's
produced by Crossway. I'm trying to think of
the books that, you know, people have read, Jensen
and Lowley by Ortland, that's Crossway, like
major evangelical publishing houses and institutions.
Now, Southern Seminary is not going to sign on
to Nate Collins, but I'm not overstating the
case that this dominated evangelicalism, this
conversation, this angle of side B thinking dominated
evangelicalism. so much so that I have to confess,
and I've said this before, but I would listen
to these same -sex attracted Christians and they
would say, well, I wasn't abused as a child or
I wasn't deeply addicted to porn. I don't know
where these appetites came from. And I can remember
as your thought was developing on this, I was
arguing with you. They can't account for where
this came from. They can't be responsible for
it. And I know there was a mantra that you gave
me that eventually just clicked. It's so deeply
biblical. to desire sin is sin. And I just remember,
like, loud conversations where you're like, Jeff,
to desire sin is sin. You know, you go to Jesus
to look at a woman with lust in your heart is
adulterous. And I was caught up in it in kind
of the propaganda wave coming out of evangelicalism
for a number of years. And thankfully, you were
my friend. powered through it, but this stuff
was powerfully pushed. I think part of the power
that came from this is that it seems like Christianity
in general has bought Hokeline and Sinker, the
born this way myth. And we even use these terms,
like you would say, he is gay, which is not a
good way to describe someone because that implies
that that is a part of who they are as a person.
rather than a sinful choice that they're making.
I think we are very much conditioned creatures
and the choices that we allow further, more choices
down the road of the same sort. I'm not as educated
as all the other gentlemen sitting at this table,
so I'll break it down in a way that I can explain.
For instance, If I see a beautiful woman on the
street, I have trained my eyes, I have conditioned
my eyes to look away. I don't train my eyes on
that woman because I know where my nature will
take me if I allow it to go there. So my eyes
out of reflex look away. And that's what I think
we have to do. just as a society, is we have
to set a threshold or a gate, and we don't go
through that. We have to be able to train ourselves
to know what is dangerous ground to stand on.
And I think our society, we're oblivious to that.
We see sexual appetites as the route to our most
authentic self. It's how Stella gets her groove
back. It's how whoever has the awakening on a
wild weekend where she sleeps with multiple people.
We see sexual identity as your most authentic
self. Before that even, you don't hear this as
much, but the idea that a boy becomes a man after
he has sex the first time. Yeah. Sexuality in
general has been cheapened, and it's become something
far less important than it truly is. There's
so many connections that happen. It's casual,
right? Yeah, it's casual. And that's the whole
problem with it. It's both casual and the great
epiphany that tells you who you really are. We
try to do both. Tinder or whatever, hook up with
whoever you want to, but then you're also going
to know yourself best in those appetites or when
you're sexually charged or whatever. It is a
schizophrenic notion. Yeah. And it's the absurdity
is getting even more absurd because you have
VR programs coming online that will submerge
people into this sin. so much further than they
are right now. Yeah. You know, 2025, we're at
the cusp of that. You know, Elon famously has
a neural link. You can have a direct brain interface
where for some subscription service like Netflix,
you could spend the day in some direct brain
programming, sleeping with the top 25 most attractive
women in society at the moment. Like, again,
it'd be a pay package. And all these things are
right here available to us in this technological
moment we're at because we've stopped thinking
about lust as a path to hell and have started
thinking about it as something that's both ultimately
meaningless. You think about Larry Flint, the
publisher of Hustler, Jared and I were in New
Orleans one time. We walked past a Hustler building
and the tagline on the building was, relax, it's
just sex. But then also, it's the most meaningful
experience you can have. We're going to be able
to pump that directly into people's brains because
we don't know how to think about this. And evangelicalism,
to Terry's point, is not really doing better.
It's adopting it and then trying to baptize it,
put some guardrails up, but work with the same
default assumptions. Absolutely. So Terry brought
up about temptation and understanding temptation.
We've adopted a lot of taglines, like, temptation
isn't sin. Jesus was tempted. Church history...
Oh, that's a great one. I hope you'll unpack
that for our listeners in just a moment. Church
history has always understood that there are
two forms of temptation. One is when you're offered
something evil, inherently evil. It's lawless.
You know, it's unlawful. And that is inner temptation.
You're desiring something that's forbidden. It's
a violation of the 10th commandment. You shall
not covet. You shall not desire your neighbor's
wife or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
And interestingly, in the Hebrew, in Genesis
3 -6, whenever Eve desires the tree, the forbidden
tree, because it makes her wise, it's the same
Hebrew word used in the 10th commandment about
coveting. So she is coveting the forbidden tree.
So there's not any pre -coveting desire. It's
not like you have a neutral desire and then it
becomes lust at a later date or a later moment.
No, the seed of lust is lust, right? Like it's
not good things produce lust or neutral things
or God designed things. It is the lust of the
flesh. The flesh is producing the lust. And so,
James 1 describes this, where he says, God can't
tempt you. You're tempting yourself. Your own
lusts lure and entice you. And they then conceive
mindful sin and then grow into death. You know,
that's the life cycle of sin listed there. But
the picture is that of a woman giving birth.
And so, the nature of the death and the sin The
lust is of that same nature. That's why it grows
into those things. That's why it can only produce
those things. No one can say that I was aimed
at good whenever I was lusting. It is sin that
is enticing you. Although, like a Wesley Hill
would have said that about you, right? Like,
I really wanted a good male friend. Yes. He tries
to say that he's aimed at good whenever he's
literally desiring an abomination in his heart.
And so, inner temptation is always the beginning
of sin. Now, when you're lured and enticed by
your own desires, you should rejoice if you don't
submit to it. But you've got to confess wanting
to do it. There's a part of you that wants to
do it. That's why you find it tempting. Now,
the other form of temptation is what Jesus experienced,
which is when you're offered a good thing through
an evil means. It's not sin to desire the good
thing. So, in Jesus' temptation? Yes. when he's
offered by Satan to, or he's enticed by Satan
to turn a stone into bread. It's good to eat
bread. The text says he was hungry. It's good
for hunger to be satiated. Yes. When he's offered
the nations, Jesus was, the whole design was
for Jesus to receive the nations. What Satan's
offering him is the nations without the cross.
So, he's offering him something good, not something
evil. Right. He's offering something good through
an evil means. But if you accept the evil means
and desire the evil means, similar to inner temptation
where you're desiring evil, if you desire the
evil means, you're desiring evil. And so, Jesus,
all his temptations, He was offered good things
through evil means, and he did not desire the
evil means, he desired the good things from his
father. So if I lose my job, and you know, Baptist
can vote you out any time, if I lose my job and
I need to provide for my family, wanting to provide
for my family's God -designed order, it's according
to the created order, it's a good thing, it's
commanded. But if a drug dealer says, hey, come
sell these drugs for me. If I reject that offer
while still desiring to provide for my family,
I've been tempted like Jesus. But if I desire,
if I contemplate, well maybe I could sell them
this one time, then I've begun to sin in my heart.
So Jesus was tempted like us, yet without sin.
He was tempted by good things. You know, the
devil goes to Jesus with inherently good things.
You name some of them food, angel protection,
to be the king of kings. But he went to the first
David with lust, laziness, adultery, lying, murder.
And got him. Yeah. And David desired him. So
if you desire something inwardly, evil, you're
being tempted like David or Peter. If you're
being offered a good thing through an evil means,
you're being tempted like Jesus. If you don't
desire the evil means, you have not sinned. It
is possible to be tempted without sinning. if
it's outward. But inward, you've already begun
to sin because your flesh is lusting. Desiring.
Desiring. Yeah, that's good. So, when the Bible
in Hebrews tells us that Jesus was tempted in
every way that we are, yet without sin, you're
saying that there's still this crucial distinction.
Yes. That Jesus never had a desire to lust after
a female he saw on the streets of Jerusalem.
Right. His temptations were things like, this
is what the Father's already going to give you.
Just go ahead and take it by an independent exercise
of your power rather than submission to your
Father. That's not us. As sons of Adam, before
the gospel, we're tempted for wicked things.
Right, right. And Jesus can't be tempted by wicked
things. If Jesus desired evil, then He violated
the tenth commandment. And which is, of course,
means he's a sinner. And would disqualify him
as the righteous substitute. Yes. I mean, he
says in the Sermon on the Mount, blessed are
the pure in heart, for they shall see God. He
commands us in Matthew 22, 37 through 39, that
we're to love God with all our hearts, souls,
and minds, love our neighbors as ourselves. And
if he didn't do that, then he sinned. And so,
Temptation is sin if it's inwardly and you're
tempting yourself. If it's outwardly, it's not
sin if you don't desire the evil means. I find
it very freeing, right, like to distinguish those
two. because the goal is not to get out of sin,
right? The goal is, and by that I mean using
rhetoric to get out of sin, right? Like, to evade
the consequences and the blame. Like, to try
to, I don't have to go to the mirror to say,
well, did I inwardly desire this or was it outward?
No, no, I just go to Jesus. He's my advocate.
He's at the Father's right hand. He's interceding
for me. Like, I don't understand why Christians
are so adamant about, no, I haven't sinned, no,
I haven't sinned. When Jesus taught us to pray,
He says, confess your debts, forgive us our debts.
Right? As we forgive those who trespass against
us. Like, it's fundamental. When He teaches you
to pray, Jesus knew every time you'd pray, you
needed to confess your sins. Right? That's how
sinful we are. And so, we just need to go to
Jesus. And all these other things, these empty
rhetoric, it constantly sends you to the mirror.
Because the Wesley Hills, the Side B, And the
people who believe, well, I haven't sinned if
I haven't acted on it. They're constantly going
to the mirror to ask, did I act on it? Did I
act on it when they should be saying, was I obedient
to God from my heart? I think that's a charitable
view because my opinion is that a lot of these
guys are really just looking to see how far they
can go in disobedience before they get in trouble.
I'm glad you brought up the Sermon on the Mount
because this came up in Madden's here at the
school. We did this, we went through lengthy
portion of the Sermon on the Mount and I read
an article and I cannot remember who it was by.
It was on American Reformer. On the Sermon on
the Mount kind of being the continuation of Moses
law where the law that was handed down to us
was a list of don't do this and the Sermon on
the Mount and the New Testament that came after
it was a clarification of it's not just about
not doing X. It's about desiring to go forward
towards holiness and pursue righteousness, which
necessarily excludes X. And the Sermon on the
Mount is Jesus kind of teaching that lesson.
And then Paul continues to take that up in his
letters, and it just continues throughout the
whole New Testament of like, you know, seek righteousness,
seek obedience to God, and that will push out
any opportunities for sin. And that sounds like
kind of the approach that you took here in this
book. Yes, it's exactly what it is. And in Matthew
5, the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus talks
about lust, he's quoting the Septuagint, which
is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible,
the Old Testament, and he's combining the seventh
and tenth commandments there when he says adultery,
you know, to look with lust. He's actually quoting
the tenth commandment and saying, so he's correcting
the Pharisees who were teaching that only the
outward action is sin. Well, that's odd. So you're
saying this isn't the first time? Well, back
to the cataclysm of evangelical discourse on
this. So the idea was the sins grounded in something
good that kind of went astray. Then you find
your identity in it. So there's all this gay
Christian stuff, right? And one of the things
that came along with a light bulb that you kind
of turned on above my head, is that I've called
it evangelicalism special sin. So if I had someone
come into the church and say, man, I'm a white
dude. Every time I walk down the street and I
see someone darker than me, I just hate them.
And what I want to do is pull my car over and
beat the trash out of them. And as a pastoral
counselor, if I said, well, so you're a racist
Christian, He's a side B racist Christian. Yeah,
you're a side K Christian. And so you've probably
got a desire that's good for your own people.
And the fact that you didn't act on that is wonderful.
But as a racist Christian, you're going to have
to live washed and waiting for this special time
when the redemption of your body comes. And Jesus
will rectify these desires you have in your life.
We don't treat any sin that way. We don't even
treat heterosexual lust for pornography that
way. So you come in, and I can't quit looking
at lust. It's going to cost me my career and
my family. I'm consumed by it. Well, look, friend,
you're a lustful Christian, and what we've really
got to do is just get you to, every time you
want to look at something on your phone, just
don't pick it up. and you're washed and waiting,
someday you'll be redeemed from that. You know,
I mean, we're scathing from evangelical pulpits
about internet porn. Rightly so. We're scathing
about racism from evangelical pulpits. Rightly
so. But we treat same -sex attraction as evangelical
special sin, and we turn them into a martyr class.
They're like special... Sam Albury is this specially
holy figure because he desires abominable things.
He desires to do abominable things with his brothers
and his neighbor, but because he's so holy that
he won't act on it, that somehow gives him status,
like he's achieved something. And again, it's
moral insanity, and you see it as soon as you
try to apply it to any other sin. It exposes
and lays it bare. And something that's very freeing
about this is that I was in a debate with a guy
the other day, and he claims to have spoken all
across the U .S. at Christian universities. Let's
just be specific about this, because I think
everybody ought to watch this interview. So it's
on your podcast. Yeah, it's Peter Volk. All Truth
is God's Truth is your podcast. It's a YouTube
channel as well, right? Peter Volk, who has talked
at Baptist Collegiate Ministries. Or you have...
Reformed University Fellowship. Crusade, I think
you did. Lipscomb. So this guy goes to do training
on how Christians think about sexuality. So from
there, just carry on. Yeah, he argued that he
was a gay Christian and that it's not sin at
all. But he was wanting to lay... homosexuals
taking their lives at the feet of Christians
like me that were saying, no, you're not gay.
You have a sin pattern that Christ can change,
which is what we say about every sin on earth.
But that special sin, and so he's running around,
he thinks that he's gay. And no wonder, if you
travel the country telling everybody you're gay,
guess what? You're never going to repent of that
sin. I mean, that's just the fact you're talking
about all the time. Yeah, you're proud of it.
You're proud of it, thinking about it. And finding
your identity unique. Well, I can't remember
the quote exactly, but it's something like, it's
very difficult to convince a man he's wrong when
his income depends on being wrong. That's exactly
right. That's Sam Albury. Sam Albury literally
says, I wish I was married, I wish I had kids,
but I can't because I have these attractions.
I'm like, man, no, if you repent of them and
pursue a godly woman, you can get married. You're
not a eunuch. Like, you were able to get married
and bear children. You refused to because you
bought into this lie from the culture and your
flesh. And it's very profitable. The Bible didn't
tell you this. The Bible didn't tell you this.
You know, your flesh has told you this and, you
know, it's ridiculous. It really is utterly ridiculous.
But Christians are just not willing to read the
Scriptures. I mean, Paul... In Ephesians 5 .3,
he says that impurity should not even be named
among Christians, which impurity is any form
of sexual morality in your heart. Like, that's
not even supposed to be named among Christians.
And to say, to run around calling yourself a
gay Christian, or that, oh, I'm just, you know,
I'm a battle porn, all this stuff, like, I really
think the key and why the two great commandments
are what they are. is that the way that the Lord
sanctifies us is that you become what you think
on. And you become what you believe, what you
talk about all the time, what you think about
all the time. And God tells us we're supposed
to think of Him and others. And that's what purifies
you. Well, to this point, my family is interested
in Stranger Things. The new season has dropped,
right? So the character who plays Will, started
playing that character at a very young age. The
Duffers have been pretty clear. Yeah, we, you
know, we were building up to him coming out as
gay for quite a while, right? Well, I remember
before this season dropped, back when The Last
of Us wrapped up, the actor who plays Will came
out as gay. And my kids were talking to me about
that. Millie, Bobby Brown, who plays Eleven,
you know, she gave an interview that kind of
taught me. She said, well, of course I knew he
was gay. And I told my kids he had been paid
in his most formative years. When his personality,
his view of the world, everything's developing.
To enter into a false identity of a homosexual,
lo and behold, the fake overcame the authentic,
or it shaped the authentic. This shouldn't surprise
us. We should probably have federal laws against
asking children to play homosexual characters.
We should probably treat it as child abuse. So
the point being, it's as relevant as the last
culture -wide television show obsession we're
going to have. Well, since gay marriage has been
the law of the land, you've had an uptick of
almost, I think it's three or four hundred percent.
of people coming out as gay or trans. Yeah, because
the law is designed to tell you what is good
and what is not good, what's right and what's
wrong. So, it totally upends the lie that you're
born this way, which, you know, Gagnon proved
that 23 years ago. Robert Gagnon. Robert Gagnon,
his book, The Bible on Homosexual Practice, he
showed that the percentages of homosexuality
were like 700 % higher in the cities where it
was praised. And those who were Educated in the
universities were much more likely to be gay
than those in rural communities Whatever your
culture set celebrates your children will go
up grow up to celebrate and to love and It's
everywhere in pop culture You can't like right
now even right now after all the stats, you know,
it used to be like four percent now I think it's
up to ten percent of the population. But when
you turn on any TV show there's going to be a
gay or trans character. And always in a favorable
light. Yep. They're never the goofball, the screw
up, the whatever. The villain. The villain. Yep.
Yep. And it's, they're trying to train. children.
And the only ones who are really standing against
it are Bible -believing Christians. And we need
to, because society is going to collapse. Lowest
marriage rate in recorded American history, lowest
birth rate in recorded American history, and
homosexuals don't truly get married, because
they can't become one flesh according to Genesis
2, and they don't bear children. And so, what
it's going to end up doing is destroying society,
which, if you kick against God's design, that's
what happens. You know, interesting development
that we've seen here in the last few years is
that there's been a reversal. It's not a 100
% reversal, but there has been a significant
rise in opposition to gay marriage. I don't know
if you've seen those statistics. It's something,
it's a slight majority are opposed now, whereas
that was down to something, 30 something percent.
I mean, we've lived in the wreckage of it long
enough. Yeah, I wonder about that. Go ahead.
Just the point that I think particularly with
zoomers Yeah, yeah, they've lived in the chaos
that opposed to burger fell world gave them and
they're like Oh actually probably going back
would be better. Yeah, it's like empirical Well,
they bullied everybody overnight I became a bigot
for something that Christians have always believed
and they're brothers and sisters in Africa Lots
of different places around the globe still to
this day Believe those things. Well in my state
I was in Kentucky at the time when it passed
and we had voted as a state I had passed here
by constitutional referendum by something like
80 % to 20%. That was in 2008, something like
that. That's why Bergefell had to do it from
the federal level. Tennessee's a hot seat of
LGBTQ. Nashville, Knoxville, Johnson City. Close
to Asheville. The further you get from the farm,
the less you can live according to natural law.
And it doesn't press down on you. Like, Jeff,
there's only certain ways you can breed those
cows. You know, there's only certain ways you
can grow those crops. And the natural law is
pressing down on everyone. But whenever you get
into the city, their food just magically shows
up. And then disappears when they're done with
it, right? Somebody comes in a truck to get it.
And so they live in fairy -tale land because
they live in the city. And if they lived out
here, if everything was still agrarian, you know,
if that was the primary job, we wouldn't even
be discussing this stuff. Yeah, probably not.
That's like day 33, moved to the country. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Because I mean, it's just, it's pretty,
it's common sense stuff and you have to be educated
out of it, you know, or live in fairy tale land
to even argue these things. Well, we're being
indoctrinated by fairytale and to with companies
like Disney and absolutely just they have an
agenda to promote these ideals and You just did
a thing on X Jeff talking about wicked and Maleficent
and all these stories that Twist the the good
to bad and the bad to good and programming the
heroes and the anti -heroes in certain lights.
And it's just, it's a bad place. I used to love
Disney growing up. Yeah. They weren't always
this bad. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure that there's
been problems for a little while, but we were
just, you know, in my econ class, I asked the
question, what do you guys think the most complex
economic product is? We just got done reading
an essay called Eye Pencil by Leonard Reed, which
everybody should read. It's very short. You can
find that online. And it's the life cycle of
how a pencil is made. And his point is that it
requires very remote, independent human cooperation
in order to make the simplest thing we can think
of, a pencil. And so I, you know, contrary to
that, I said, what do you guys think the most
complex economic product is? And somebody suggested
a cruise ship, like a modern cruise ship. So
I looked around and found a National Geographic
episode on Disney cruise ship the new the new
one which I think is out now but at the time
this was recorded in 2021 and so It you know,
they're working on it and there was there's several
parts of it where they show the design behind
the scenes and they're pulling all these older
Animated bits from Cinderella and Bambi and like
the the real older classics and I just you know
It just really was almost moving how sad it was
to see What the company used to be and where
they used to focus on like making beautiful stories
that were animated well that told truths and
You know, where did they lose their way? You
know, we're beating up on Disney. They're not
the only ones doing that but it's that's the
one that I think has had the most pronounced
and and altitude downfall, I guess They've planted
their flag. Yeah It's postmodernism where there's
no absolute truth and my feelings are my truth.
And now it's gotten to the point where my feelings
are my truth, but you have to affirm it. And
so I think that's why the, did you say the Zoomers
are rebelling against it? Because it's, well,
it's anti -common sense. Like it's anti - They're
tired of the chaos. Yeah, yeah. This is kind
of I mean getting back to your in your discussion
with Peter Peter Valk, is that right? He I think
that he eventually stormed off Which you should
tune in for but the thing that really made it
to where he was unwilling to continue was where
you would you you decline to take responsibility
for the the horrific suicide rates among LGBT
people where he wanted he wants the church to
accept at least a large portion of the blame
for that phenomenon and I can't help but think
that a lot of the programming we're seeing is
a desperate attempt by people who are so lost
and feel horrible about the lifestyle that they
have. And they think if they could just convince
everybody that it's good, that they would feel
better. Yes. It's a gospel. It's a false gospel.
And, you know, this Miniviscar podcast, you got
to realize this is the kind of final rhetorical
manipulation. You see it most pronounced with
trans kids. Either let your kids mutilate themselves
and sterilize themselves, or they're going to
kill themselves. Let people desire abomination
and pursue that, or they're going to kill themselves.
And this is particularly aimed at parents. You
get a little bit with educators, you get a little
bit with it with educational apparatus stuff.
The people under your authority are going to
kill themselves if you're not on board with this.
But it's really aimed at parents. If you don't
let them find their identity and their sexual
episodes, no matter how bizarre. I mean, we're,
you know, we're past furries, like, whatever
it is, they're gonna kill themselves. And so
every parent who wants their child alive feels
incredible pressure to say, well, yeah, I guess
I would rather them be alive than dead. And that's
why a Valk wants to lay that on your shoulders,
because that's when, if you accept responsibility
for those things, well, now you just have to
do what they want. You just have to let them
have a blank check hostage situation. Yeah, it's
a hostage situation Yeah, voluntary voluntarily
taking your own life and you want to blame somebody
else whenever you're literally pursuing an idol
you're saying I'm I must be gay or else I must
have this sin or else and you must approve it
or else Or else I'm going and it's not a hatred
of self. It's a it's a it's a selfish Like, it's
a pursuing what you want above loving God, above
loving your neighbor. I mean, it's like the...
Any other natural obligation, right? I will have
life on my own terms, or not at all. Or not at
all. That's exactly right. And the way out of
it is exactly what argued in this book. It's
the way out of all sin. Love God, love your neighbor.
I mean, it really is that simple. Live your life
for loving God and loving your neighbor. And
you'll flourish. And if you don't, you won't.
That's just a fact. Yeah, so Jared, just to play
devil's advocate, because I know this comes up,
you're not advocating that sinless perfectionism
can be attained in this life. No, the flesh is
sin, and it's with you in this life. And it will
move, and that's sin. But you don't ever have
to walk in the flesh. you don't ever have to
submit to it. And if you starve it and call it
sin, it will starve itself to no effect and move
a different direction. The reason why you battle
the same sin over and over again is because you
were tempted by it. There's a part of you that
wants it. And to the point when you no longer
want that particular sin, it will move to something
else. You can mortify particular emotions of
original sin. And it's biblical. It's Colossians
3, it's Romans 8. I mean, Paul's never talking
about his sexuality. None of the New Testament
writers. And how many Christians today, that's
what they're talking about constantly, what they're
coming and battling constantly. Well, why? Well,
because they gave their hearts to it at some
point. They've given it permission. Yes, they
have. And that's the way the spiritual realm
works. It's when you grant permission to a spirit
of something, you give it legal access to that.
Like the vampire being asked into the house,
right? Right. Right. You know, these things,
particularly with Christians, can't force the
door, right? Like if you open the door, and we
do, I mean, there's a reason why the vampire
myth is they can't come in unless you invite
them. There's a reason why the fictional stories
of demons are like, you do something to summon
it to you. And then it has access. And now, you
know, in the movie or story, you've got to figure
out the way to get the door closed again. And
there's a kernel of truth there that we give
specific sins permission to linger and we have
to slam the door shut. It's Psalm 115 and Romans
1. You know, in Psalm 115, they worship idols
and then they become like them. And in Romans
1, they worship the creature. And then they,
because they've turned worship upside down, they're
not worshiping the Creator, they're worshiping
the creature. Now their sexuality is upside down.
And then they dive into all kinds, all manner
of sin. And so it's reciprocal. So if you give
in to a sin, then you become like that sin, right?
Like if you submit to it, as Jason was talking
about, then... You literally become more like
it and it slowly dehumanize your D images you
because you're imaging Satan Yeah, and we've
seen this with I mean, you know in the 80s homosexuality
went through a major image upgrade right because
they were They were known back then as being
kind of this gross party crowd that was doing
unmentionable things. And they were fine with
that. But they realized if we ever want acceptance,
if we ever want to be able to do this without
having to worry about getting arrested and stuff,
we're going to have to change things. So that's
when they came up with the like love is love
kind of stuff. That what actually goes on didn't
change. It was just a it was just a veneer. And
we've seen that now that it's out in the open.
Now people can actually watch the degrading where
someone goes from just sort of gay to like a
lunatic. Trans like they just it gets extremely
Warped and it's just visible like you can just
see it in the countenance of people Men in his
late 20s as to wear adult diapers. Yeah, right.
Like I mean, it's degrading I mean cat literal
castration. Yeah And dressing like an animal
acting like an animal. Yeah, just you know, just
it's to the point of there's been a major effort
to curtail footage from the San Francisco Pride
Parade on social media and other places. Several
years ago, there was a video of a man urinating
in another man's mouth during the parade. Oh
my goodness. And once that happened and went
viral, we've got to get that stuff off the airwaves
because it undercuts the veneer that Terry's
talking about. We're just like y 'all. It's just
same sex rather than heterosexual. You watch
guys in dog collars abusing each other on the
street. Makes that look real false. So our TV
homosexuals are clean cut. They look like you.
They don't talk with a lisp. Have a great wit.
Yeah, they... Kind of Oscar Wilde. They're very
funny. Yeah, and that's the presentation that
they prefer, but when you actually see the real
thing, which I hope you don't, you know that
it's not what they want to present. It's not
the public image they want you to see. Yeah,
and even the campaign's been successful enough
that... I do think that they're kind of in a
position of not realizing how much they're saying.
So if you look at the... And I realize there's
differences between same -sex individual and
drag queen, although there's a lot of overlap.
But the drag queens, dragon queen probably works,
the drag queens who are doing drag queen story
hour look like cartoon monsters. They do. There's
something about that movement that wants to grind
your face. in the obscenity of it. And I do wonder
if Drag Queen's story hour wasn't a place of
them overplaying their hand. Yeah, it seems to
have not gone as well long -term. Something that...
So Rosario Butterfield speaks at her local school
board trying to persuade them to not allow these
trans... And if people don't know her, so she
was a lesbian literature professor at Syracuse.
Syracuse tenured, eventually was radically converted,
now is a pastor's wife. tries to help people
in her former circumstances. So she said at those
school board meetings, people who oppose her,
it's amazing how many young people are walking
with canes because whenever you put those chemicals
into your body, like the opposite of what you're
designed for, it destroys your bones. And so
so many people who are trans walking around with
canes, young people, because their bodies are
being destroyed by literally what they are doing,
the fairy tale they're trying to live. And nobody,
you don't ever see that. You don't ever see those
warnings. Look how free they are. So I think
we're probably running up against time here.
Jared, so 33 days to freedom from lust. I'll
just say for the record, I think John Owen's
mortification of sin is maybe the most practical,
best thing written in the church on dealing with
sin. I'm going to put this as number two, and
I'm not doing that because I'm your buddy. I
just really believe in this book. What's the
cheapest purchase price for a book like this?
Yeah, you can buy it on Amazon. If you want bulk
prices, find me on Twitter or find me at drjaredmoore
.com, and I can get you bulk prices at cheaper
prices. And I've got a curriculum that goes with
it where you can teach this in your church, your
small group, your men's ministry, Sunday school,
where you can just walk them through everything
that we've talked about, but it'll be at a very
you know, G -rated level to our folks, even teenagers,
your youth group. This book has been designed
for even a 10 -year -old fifth grader to read,
and so I hope it helps everyone. I especially
want it to get to young people so that they can,
right before they hit puberty, you know, and
those desires for marriage are beginning to help.
shape them in such a way to where the flesh isn't
twisting God's good design. And so I want to
encourage you to go purchase it, and you can
also read it on Kindle, and there's paperback
hardcover. But I just wanted to benefit folks.
Well, listener, I'm going to go further. You
do need to contact Jared for bulk pricing, because
there should be at least 10 copies of this on
every church foyer in America. Just laying around
for people to pick up, because these kind of
sins don't, or they often don't manifest themselves.
publicly early on. And so these kind of books
need to just be in circulation in your church.
So the person who thinks they're hiding this
in encounters it and finds freedom from it and
then brings the resources of the church to bear
on as well. So please listen to me. I'm not making
a commission off of this. Ten copies of this
should be on your church's whatever tables in
the four -year by the time that the soonest that
you can make that happen. Thanks for being here,
Jared. Appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks for having
me, fellas. Yeah. Thank you. We'll get back to
it again very soon, but thank you guys for joining
the Men of Issachar. Well, I hope you enjoyed
this podcast. Like and subscribe, and we're going
to leave you with another song from my good friend
Marcus Hill, Holding Up Fences. From the look
on your face That you'd walk out the door And
you'd drive away You packed your bags And I watched
you leave Now I miss you so much it hurts And
I can hardly You mama thinks I'm crazy Cause
I stop and stay I'll be holding this fence till
the day you come back home Every morning I wait
just to dream you're around But I hear you've
been busy painting up this town Sweet child of
mine And every evening I pray God protects you
and keeps you alive Your mama thinks I'm crazy
Cause I stop and stay Your grace has no end And
I will come running When I see you come round
that bend Your mama thinks I'm crazy Cause I'll
stop instead