Welcome back everyone to the Men of Issachar
podcast. We have a very special guest this week.
Mr. Nick Duncan joins us. Nick is very highly
respected in the classical Christian school world.
He is a very wise man, very well studied, as
you'll quickly see. He has a lot to offer to
this conversation and I truly consider him to
be someone who is representative of the Men of
Issachar. So I hope you enjoy this conversation.
All right. Welcome everybody to the third episode
of the Manavisakar podcast. I've brought some
more friends in today. Mr. Nick Duncan. He's
a good friend and someone wise that I look up
to. Again, Terry Gant and Jeff Wright are with
me and I'm Jason Gaw. So what are we getting
into today, guys? Let's see, this is we've we've
figured out we're kind of getting into a rhythm
here of being the the podcast that is a grab
bag of Cultural issues and whatnot things that
things of that sort Partly because the men of
isekar as we've we've mentioned before Are the
men who knew the times and knew what to do and
so it's almost like it's almost like we're all
on on on like four hot seats So it's we don't
have we don't have very firm plans here, but
let's see what to kick it off I've been reading
a book, and I will tell you about it if you'd
like. Oh, I would like. Okay. I would like. All
right, so there's a fellow by the name of Raymond
Ibrahim, who's a descendant of Egyptian Coptic
Christians, and he's a historian by education.
And so he operates a blog, which is an interesting
read. I guess a blog is the right word. where
he details ongoing, like contemporary, like with
our times, persecution of Christians, mostly
in the Islamic world. And he has a couple of
books out and he's got what is now becoming about
to become a trilogy. At the time that we're recording
this, the book is actually not out yet, but it
comes out in about a week. And so this is the
third in the series. So the first one was called
Sword and Scimitar, which is about the Crusades
and it focused mostly on the major battles of
the Crusades. Actually just got that in the mail
because I love defenders what you're about to
talk about so much Yes, we read it over fall
break and I was like, well, I've got to complete
the you know the set Yeah, so it may be they'll
come in a box set in the future. We actually
arrived in So sword and scimitar you'll have
to let me know what you think of that when you
get done with it So that one's mostly about major
battles and sort of the aftermath what led well
led up to them and what were the the ramifications
of the battles Defenders of the West is the second
one, which is Primarily many biographies of,
I believe it's nine crusaders, if I remember
the number right. It's somewhere in that neighborhood
anyway. And that one. We've all voted and decided
it's none. Okay. Good. All right. So you may
have evidence to the contrary, but it's nine.
Nope. Democracy rules. So that one is a really
great read too. And I particularly would commend
that one to people because I think biographies
and this may be a place to get opinions here.
Biographies are good. Intro into history because
it is the story of a person so we have a character
and you have Their struggles their flaws. You
have all those things the things that we can
identify with so If you like biographies, it's
a really good one You've got there, you know
each guy has a chapter about the events of their
life how they furthered the defense of Christendom
versus the the invasion of Islamic powers Some
of them were crusades. Some of them were the
Spanish reconquista And then we have the last
ones chronologically. They're kind of arranged
chronologically. The last ones are the lesser
known guys that were mostly in like Eastern Europe
fighting the Ottoman invasion into Europe, which
is a period of history that we don't are in America
don't know real well. We're kind of familiar
with the Crusades from movies and sort of the
imagery of Knights. Well, in the shame campaign
in our education that Christianity is bad because
the Crusades every other religion that you can
point to like Islam that's so violent. Oh Christianity
is just as bad because the Crusades. Yeah And
Abraham's, you know, he does a good job of rehabilitating
the Crusades he's laying out a case for why the
Crusades were not only justified but morally
upright and That they were defensive conflicts
primarily that the Christians engaged in and
then I told you guys I Just gush about that book.
Yeah but for our listeners one of the things
it did for me is it actually I came away feeling
a sense of shame and did some like authentic
repentance because I had just bought without
questioning the idea that the Crusades were morally
bankrupt. And I realized what I had done had
been participating in the shaming of faithful
Christian brothers who were doing what needed
to be done in the time. And so I came away from
that book. particularly challenged that I try
not to be someone who takes any kind of narrative
uncritically, but I had that one. And I'm very
thankful to Ibrahim for flipping that on my,
on, uh, it's head, uh, Vlad Drakul in particular,
you know, you, you talked about, like, we're
familiar with certain things in the crusades,
but some is left to us. I mean, it's almost a
satanic propaganda campaign that's been waged
through the eras against him. by the appearances
of the historical record was a faithful Christian
brother. Something that's been put on my mind
as of late is just immigration and how that is
leading up to us necessarily making a crusade
of sorts for Christianity. Well, and really it's
kind of the reconquista model at this point.
I was watching a video from Dearborn, Michigan
this week where some Christian protesters were
protesting something that is very sane, like
their protest was sane, something like protesting
the sounding of the Muslim call to prayer over
public buildings in their town. And they were
surrounded and harangued by the Muslims, right?
So this idea that it's a peaceful religion at
its core, that that's a guise until they get
a foothold and then they begin acting like they
acted historically. So I don't know that it'll
be swords and spears, but there's going to have
to be some sort of reassertion of the Christian
West. And that's truly a reconquist in Dearborn
because I think they're Muslim majority now.
I think they're like 50 something percent Muslim
population. Well, there's a famous video of their
mayor telling a kind of a normal, you know, white
dude, probably some sort of cultural Christian
at minimum that he doesn't belong there. Because
he's upset with the Muslim dominance of the town.
I mean, the writing's on the wall. Once it's
overtaking, how do we take it back? Especially
with the repopulation, like once they start having
kids and once their kids are indoctrinated. Yeah,
this is an arena. The best solution here. And
I'm not calling for anything that's not the best
solution. I just want to be clear about that.
The best solution is for the magistrate to exercise
just powers under God's delegation and to expel
those who are here legally or here on some kind
of legal facade. So we have to have deportations.
Then we have to have an assertion of privileging
Christianity in the legal code. And I guess that
could weird people out, but it's... It's been
the dominant motif for civic governance in the
Christian West, both Catholic and Reformation.
And it seems to be quite clear from the primary
records, it was the assumption of the framers
of the Constitution. And so the best possible
thing, the thing that all Christians should be
praying for, is that the highest magistrate at
the federal level and then the lesser magistrates
at the state and city level would begin to exercise
their just authority towards punishing evil and
cultivating the good, the way scripture calls.
Really the law code that we've got in most places
as it stands already kind of does this because
it's based on the understanding of Christian
ethics. Every, every, I think 49 of the 50 states
are based on British common law, which is rooted
in Christian ethics. I think Louisiana is the
exception because they based on French Napoleonic
code, I think they're, but. You plugged a book,
so I'll plug another one, but Jeff was talking
about privileging the Christian faith and how
Christian governments have done that in the West.
That's true of pretty much all cultures until
modern day pluralism, even before Christianity.
Even pagans believed that promoting religion
was part of the public good. So if you haven't
read the Chinese dynastic cultures were the same
Near Eastern Far Eastern Western anywhere you
look the Greek and the Greeks and the Hebrews
talked about promoting religion as part of the
public good and so when Christians Started gaining
political power They saw promoting Christianity
as part of the public good and they felt like
that was reaffirmed by places like Romans 13,
which says that the government is is to do good.
And I'm a Presbyterian, so I confess Westminster
Confession of Faith. Yeah, sorry, I know. Everybody,
everybody, everybody at the table. He's a PC
USA. Not true. That is not true. The American
revisions, I'm an elder, so I took vows. based
on the Westminster Confession of Faith with the
American Revisions. But I do not dislike the
original, but I also do not believe that the
American Revisions do harm to Christianity being
promoted as part of the public good. I believe
that they were not revised in order that America
could be pluralistic. They were revised in order
that America could be broadly Protestant, so
that Virginia might be Anglican and North Carolina
might be Presbyterian and Tennessee might be
Baptist or whatever. Amen. I know, I'll throw
you a bone here. I know when I'm in the minority.
So James Baird is a teaching elder in the PCA
and he recently has released a book called King
of Kings, where he argues that it is - From Founders
Press, a great Baptist imprint. From Founders
Press, that's right. And he argues in the book
that Christianity should be that it's the civil
magistrate's job to promote good. Romans teaches
us that, other places in scripture teaches us
that. And if the civil magistrate is supposed
to promote the good, then the one true faith
should be part of promoting the good. And so
that's just a plug, Baird's book, because I just
finished reading it and it's really good. I think
every... I mean, it's... Very accessible layman
can read it, but definitely I think elders should
be reading it especially like my denomination
the PCA we have a study committee this year to
study Christian nationalism and so there's a
lot of debate and discourse about what the civil
magistrate's role and religion or not is and
I think this book gives a really helpful way
forward and roots back into the way not just
Presbyterians, but all early American Christians
up through you know, probably the period between
the civil war and the world wars thought about
promoting religion as a public good. So Terry,
I know I'm the one who led us away from the book
you were actually going to tell us about. Yeah.
So I'd like to give that kind of theme back to
you before I do. Since we have mentioned talking
about natural law, what you're getting at there,
Nick, is that every society's governance must
be governed by religious vision. Yeah. Even cannibals.
participate in cannibalism for religious motivations.
It is inescapable that government is going to
reflect some kind of religious and moral vision.
It's inescapable. So, Terry, tell us about the
book I interrupted you from telling us about.
Okay. Well, so we talked about the first two,
right? Sword and Scimitar is the first one. Defenders
of the West, I think, is an upgrade from that.
And I just finished The Two Swords of Christ,
which is, if you liked having the Crusades rehabilitated
for you, This one might be interesting to you
because this is rehabilitating the Knights Templar
and the Knights Hospitaller. Oh my, my conspiracy
temple has just started wobbling. Well, it's
probably going to be settled down actually, because
a big part of his, what he covers here is it's
just a chronological historical narrative of
their founding, why they were founded, the things
that they did through the Crusades. Until the
the Templars kind of went extinct in around 1300s.
There was a specific eradication date. Yes there
was well sort of so the they were all over Europe,
right? And they were in the Middle East and other
places that castles kind of everywhere and the
King of France at the time Was a scumbag and
that you know shocking. Yeah I had a professor
in college that would say the French always there
when they need you. Yeah Yeah, well this guy
decided that he didn't want to pay back his his
enormous debt to the temple which he had borrowed
money from and so he found a disaffected night
that had been booted out from his behavior and
Got him to accuse them of all kinds of insanity
which includes a lot of things like occultism
devil worship Communion with demons among other
things that are unmentionable and so he The Pope
at the time was a figurehead for the French King
and he did not help them. And so all the Templars
in France were eventually hunted down and burned
at the stake. Order 66. Yeah, basically. Now
the other countries didn't buy it because they
were like, well, this is clearly politically
motivated. He wants their castles and their money
and stuff like that. But the order really never
recovered. So they kind of just went extinct.
And the Knights Hospitaller actually still exists.
The Knights of the hospital of st. John the Baptist,
which is I think technically its own sovereign
entity Like it's like a country kind of like
the Vatican really tiny little micro thing They
have sovereign relations, but there's no there's
not a whole lot to it but a very detailed history
of both of those and he will disabuse you some
of the conspiracy stuff because the most people
who think of the Templars think of like I don't
know the Da Vinci code The Freemason and the
Freemasons and created the Illuminati. Yeah.
And I'll let you read it to find out where the
connection is there. Um, there's not one, sorry,
spoiler alert, but, um, so many hours of podcasts
just got ruined. And he kind of lays out his
history for that, but he pretty much says, no,
the order went extinct and anybody who came along
later claiming that they were sort of the, uh,
the descendants of these, like the ideological
descendants of the Templars just borrowed the
name. And there's more than one, like the Rosicrucians,
there's a few others that have said like, we're
the continuation of the Knights Templar, which
actually their real name is the Poor Fellow Soldiers
of Christ. And they got the name Templars because
their headquarters was the Temple of Solomon,
or the Temple Mount. That's where they were given
that after the first crusade as like a base of
operations. So very interesting read and I've
not I've not I need some time to reflect before
I decide if I like to defenders of the West or
the two swords of Christ better But it's in high
contention. I think okay Well, so that'll be
out on the 25th of November So depending on when
this comes out you might can go get it elites
get it first The rest of us, please have to get
it. I reviewed his last book for American reformer
and so I reached out to him on on x .com And
asked if I could have an advanced copy and they
sent me a digital version. So they were very
kind of sky horse publishing, if I remember correct.
So, so the Templars were not the bad guys trying
to destroy principle pluralism that Orlando Bloom
stopped. It turns out Saladin was terrible. Shocking.
A shocking revelation. Are you telling me for
the first time? I'm just sharing this now. Yes.
Yes. There's some, this is a reference to the
movie kingdom of heaven, which is a, which is
a good movie and a terrible rendition of history.
Yeah. It's supposed to be better in the director's
cut, right? It is the extended cut is better.
I've actually never seen either one. I know the,
like the memes of the guy and stuff. The film's
a good time. It's just, it makes the Christians
look like the bad guys. Specifically the Templars
are the antagonists and they kind of want Jerusalem
to be Christian. They're like, no, the Muslims
and Christians and Jews can all live here peacefully
together. That's kind of the motif of the movie.
I will say this about the Templars and the Hospitallers
as well. Part of the reason why they developed
that reputation historically is because with
much long experience with dealing with Muslims,
they figured out that Muslims don't always tell
the truth. And so there were several times when
Muslims would reach out and say, we're going
to convert to Christianity if you don't attack
us. And some of the more naive crusaders that
were recent arrivals to the Holy Land would be
like, oh, great, wonderful. This is great. And
then on the way back, the Templars would just
like attack the ambassador train because they
were like, no, they're not. And that's you can
know. You can pass judgment on that if you think
that's hasty. That's the kind of thing that wouldn't
fly today with Big Eva. Well, it also seems like
that's the error we continue to. Take up writing
like. a religion that in its sacred text says
it's not wicked to deceive what they view as
pagans. We just ignore that. Yeah, Abraham is
actually really good on that specifically. He's
very knowledgeable about Muslim doctrine, and
so there's little sidebars in the book where
it's like, here's why this is ethical for them,
why they can do that, according to their teachings.
Within their framework. So they can lie, and
then they have another, I can't remember the
Arabic word for it, but they have another one
where they're allowed to Use double entendre
to kind of obscure the truth. So if a guy said
he'd the example he gives is Hey, can I borrow
a dollar and the guy says I'm sorry. I haven't
got a penny on me Well, clearly the implication
is that you don't have a dollar But what what
the Muslim would be able to say is technically
I didn't have a penny But I did have a pocketful
of dollars that I could have given him but he
didn't lie isn't Mohammed referred to as the
great deceiver by them Maybe I think in there
in their book. Yeah Well, he encouraged them
to basically lie as long as they had to, to get
the upper hand. And once they have it, then they
don't have to anymore. Well, and this is like
the downside of people who've been shaped by
the Christian ethic for centuries. We believe
strongly in telling the truth because Jesus presents
himself as the truth, right? So any kind of deception
is an assault on his character, but it just leaves
us naively very susceptible to groups that are
happy to deceive. Yeah, and the Templars, that
was one of their chief rules, was that you cannot
lie, like in any context. So they were what we
would think of today as Roman Catholics, so we
wouldn't agree with everything. They were monks
in their lifestyle, so there's some things that
we think that they probably withheld from themselves
that is extra lawful, like it's succeeding, like
pharisaically. But one of the things that it
did result in is that they were extremely single
-minded. And they were very, very good at fighting.
They were they won many victories against impossible
odds. I mean, they were they were easily ten
to one in combat ratio kill death ratio. So great
stories. It's an emotional roller coaster, much
like defenders. There's a lot of losses and it's
hard to read because he does detail what happens
in the aftermath. And the Muslims did not treat
their conquered adversaries with any kind of
dignity at all. But there's also some great heroic
victories. So if you find that stuff interesting,
there's even a story in there That he relates
as a as a historical fact of a dragon slaying
on the island of Rhodes by night of the hospital
Now I've got Jason's attention now Should I go
into that more Yeah, okay, then you won't hear
that. All right. So apparently Rhodes the island
of Rhodes This is the same place where the Colossus
of Rhodes stood which was one of the wonders
of the ancient world. The Knights of the Hospital
built a fortress on the foundations of the Colossus
of Rhodes because it had already collapsed and
they just kind of used the groundwork. But the
story goes that there was a giant serpent of
some kind on the island that was killing shepherds
and livestock. And eventually, knights were going
after it, but then none of them came back. And
so the master of the order said, nobody go after
the serpent. I'm tired of losing guys to it.
But one of the knights decided he was going to
do it anyway. So the trick that he came up with
is he taught his he went back to his home to
where like his family lands were and he built
a model of a giant dragon like a giant serpent
and then he trained his dogs to attack it whenever
he struck it with his sword and So he goes out
there with his dogs and he goes in and finds
it and fights it and while the Serpent's trying
to get him the dogs start tearing it up so the
serpent turns its attention to them and he's
able to get a sword into it because he wasn't
able to strike through the scales like he couldn't
slash it so he managed to get kind of up under
it and get it in the stomach and he killed it
and according and so part of the reason why Ibrahim
brings this up because it sounds like fantasy
story is that it appears in multiple records
and that there's lots of people who said things
like yeah the skull of it hung from their castle
for like a long time until it just kind of rotted
away and this is this is coming from several
accounts that didn't veer off into mythology.
They're actually recording like, it's just records
of the knights. So according to other sources
outside of the Christian tradition, various cultures
referred to Rhodes as the Isle of Serpents, and
there's like references from other peoples that
are kind of pre -existing this that suggests
that there was some kind of serpent -like creatures
that lived here. Maybe this is the last of them.
It could have been a crocodile, maybe a giant
crocodile or something like that. Um, yeah, go
ahead. Yeah. No, I just had listened to the haunted
cosmos this morning to plug another podcast and
they were talking about an American dragon and
it was the, uh, what's the name? It was the,
the Snelly gaster. Oh yeah. Let me guess the
Smithsonian came in and see all of the remains
once the Snelly gaster was destroyed by some,
by some farmer with a lever action, probably
they hung up a cow. A dead cow. To try to lure
it in? And lured it in and had a hook in it.
I mean, they went, basically went fishing for
this dragon. That's very American right there.
Yeah. Everything likes beef. Almost as good as
bison. Almost as good. They don't want to give
the snallygaster your bison meat. That's true.
That's true. Hey, um, this is kind of a veer,
but since an early theme there was books were
recommended. I'm reminded that I think today
or yesterday, Dr. Jared Moore's new book, I think
it's 33 Days to Freedom from Lust came out. And
I'm very optimistic about that book. Jared was
one of the first people who are willing to point
out in public the obvious deception of the sexual
ethics that dominated evangelicalism for maybe
eight to 10 years from the 2010s to the 2020s
where aberrant sexuality was treated as some
sort of warping of good instincts like friendship
and whatnot. He was one of the first to point
out the destructive consequences in advance that
we've now seen come to pass because of warped
quote unquote ministries like Sam Albury's. And
he's now moved on from sort of taking that lie
down in his previous book. The lust of the flesh.
The lust of the flesh. He dismantled that and
showed it to be inconsistent with both scripture
and the Christian tradition, the Protestant Christian
tradition. Now he's offering people a way out.
And I'm hoping to publish a long review on it,
but it's the best thing on the topic. Oh, you've
read it already? Yeah. He gave me an advance
copy. He gave you an advance copy. Who's the
elite now? Yeah. The guy I went to grade school
with. But anyway, I thought Lost of the Flesh
was probably the best book published in Evangelicalism
the year it came out. This is a book that I plan
to give out like Johnny Appleseed. And it's the
first in a series that's planned, I believe.
And I don't know what the approach is. I assume
it's going to be something similar, like 33 Days
to Freedom from maybe another sin. Is that the
idea? Yeah, I think he's trying to do a kind
of a practical sanctification, which is surprisingly
At one point I'd read someone say the best book
on sanctification that evangelicals have ever
written is Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. There's
now been a book written called The Unending Journey,
I think, is a practical book on sanctification
that is probably the second best since Bunyan.
I'm hoping Jared will do a series on this. And
just to kind of whet your appetite too, friends,
he has amazing returns on what he's doing in
the book before through his private ministry.
I know a story that I think is pretty widely
published to this point of a young man who thought
he was transgendered, began reading Jared's material,
repented of that, ran into Sam Alberry's material
and thought maybe he was wrong to listen to Jared,
but eventually the Spirit of God won out and
I think he's happily married and maybe with a
kid now. Yeah, praise God. Yeah, Jared related
a few stories last night talking about this very
issue of He got to save the date for a young
man who's now getting engaged to a woman who
came out of having to repent of homosexuality.
So anyway, get that book. It's not expensive.
It's the kind of thing that probably churches
should have on their table in their four -year.
Now that might be a good pastoral resource for
guys that are helping counsel. Absolutely. If
you're not sure what to say. And I think Jared's
probably pretty accessible. So if you need to
follow up with questions, you can find him. That's,
that's definitely a subject that I don't think
gets enough attention. And I just, I don't think
people realize that once you're into that sexual
sin, that it's not just something you take part
in, it's something that you're forced to grow
in. And it like leads to darker and darker places.
It's like its own kind of dark sanctification
setting you apart to darkness. Yeah. It's a,
it's, it's a dehumanizing it more and more makes
you less human. Whereas. sanctification, of course,
you dine to sin and grow more and more into Christ's
righteousness and become more human. Yeah, the
way humans are meant to be and modeled for us
in Jesus Christ, the perfect human. All right.
Shall we move into the meat of the episode? I
think so. Okay. I'm going to ask this question
and then we'll see what happens next. What are
conservatives supposed to be conserving? That's
a great question and it's a great question because
this is incredibly muddy One of the things I'm
most depressed about Well two things kind of
the public around that have depressed me is that
we continue have this phenomenon of people who
were very liberal Six years ago, but as the left
has become more radical They have found themselves
alienated from the radical left, which is most
of the left politically in our country And so
they now identify as conservatives. I've taken
to calling them less liberals and people like
James Lindsay, who will talk on social media
about, um, checking out girls with his lesbian
daughter. He's supposed to be a conservative
voice. Right. And an atheist and an open atheist.
Um, a guy that I once had some hope for, but
I think, um, there's less hope. Um, and probably
even more popularly, like, I mean, you could
probably throw Elon Musk in that basket. Yeah.
Elon's a less liberal. Jordan Peterson is a less
liberal, although I think, you know, I'm really
hopeful for Peterson still. Brett Weinstein.
Yeah. And so what that's done is just completely
destroy any real meaning to conservativism at
the popular level. I also kind of tend to refer
to these guys as daily wire liberal because their
vision of a healthy society is Bill Clinton era.
Yeah. United States. Barbecuing in the backyard.
Is it Dave Rubin who's in a long -term sodomite
relationship and they've bought a child to, you
know, to mock adoption, right? These are supposed
to be conservatives. Yeah. Go back to Reagan
era. A return to Reagan era America. Right. But
I mean, you think about a guy, is it Andrew Clavin
who's also a long -term homosexual? It's supposed
to be a dominant voice. It's either Andrew or
Spencer. I can't remember which one's the dad
and which one's the kid. I think maybe it's his
son, but I could be wrong about that. Andrew's
the dad, so it'd be Spencer. Look, I want the
best for these people. They shouldn't be a voice
at the table among conservatives, let alone seen
as leading lights. And so the idea of conservatives
figuring out what we're supposed to be conserving
is, I mean, it's not as important as preaching
the gospel clearly and authentically. But it's
at a civic level, maybe the most important question.
It's like, it's, it's Romans one and you're off
the page, right? Because there are things in
our culture that aren't even in Romans one, but
it's, it's like conserve conservatives. I'm using
air quotes now want to return to just kind of
like halfway up the page of Romans one. Instead
of act, instead of actually repenting of sin.
Can we take this back to sort of bud form rather
than full bloom is supposed to be the vision
of conservativism. That's the daily wire critique
that I have. It's more of a pruning of the weed.
Yeah. And less of an uprooting of the weed, I
guess. And I, I mean, I guess I feel a burden
to qualify. Like I love Matt Walsh. Megan Basham
works for daily wire. There, there are elements
there that I love, but the Shapiros and the Boarings
and the Clavens and whatnot. It's, it's, uh,
it's something worse than a red herring. It's
some kind of, um, very compelling counterfeit.
That's robbing us of the resources. We need to
do the actual thing. All right. So daily wire.
No, we got one. We got one. This is a hell of
a perimeter. Let me, let me, let me ask it. Let
me redirect the question a little bit because
the question of what are we supposed to be conserving
conserving, um, conserving implies that you're
holding onto something that has been right. So
how far back should conservatives be looking
right? We've just been complaining about these
guys saying Clinton. Reagan came up a little
further back in the 80s 70s, 1910, 1776. Where
are we going? So I think the idea of conservativism
is that in a fallen world, good things are hard
to cultivate, excavate and preserve. And so this
is something like mining, where you're pulling
resources out that takes an amount of labor and
work that is I don't know the right word, but
just strenuous. And so when we pull out artifacts
that are good, true, beautiful, healthy, that's
what conservative is ultimately about. So what
we want to do, I think, is instead of thinking
of a golden era, I think we should think about
what have previous generations surfaced that
are authentically good and how do we maintain
and carry those things into the future? You can
imagine a field maybe out in Arkansas where you're
paying for gyms. Previous generations found certain
gyms. How do we keep them? How do we bring them
to bear in our present moment and then hopefully
find more? Okay. Yeah, that's a good answer.
The idea of there being a golden age, I think
that's one of the, as you said, red herrings
earlier. We need to get back to a certain point.
Well, no certain point was ever perfect, right?
Or good enough. I would also say that too. We
think of progressives as always hungry for more.
There does need to be something like that on
the right, where we're consistently saying it's
just not good enough. We need better. Yeah. It's
not just trying to hold on to, I think when we
think of conservatism, we think we're just trying
to hold on to the things that are good and not
let them fade away. that kind of implies that
you don't really have a positive vision for what
the world should be like. And so conservatives
really need to, I think, reframe the way they
speak about things to speak of the world as a
positive vision. What do you want the world to
be like that you would live in? And some of that
will be trying to excavate things, as you said,
and bring them back. but you can't point to any
one particular era because They're fallen humans
in every particular area. And so they're always
Every age has different cultural sins that it
that it has to deal with and that's been true
throughout all of our country's history and and
so I think you have to What was good from that
era that we want to that we want to bring back?
What are things that are totally lost like there
are some things to hold on to still but there's
some things are totally lost I heard someone
say just last night, it's not, are you feminist
in America? It's just how feminist are you? Because
it's just the air that we breathe. And we've
talked about LGBTQ world a little bit and feminism,
abortion, all these things are attacks on creation.
And so we're so far gone that fundamentally we
really need to return to Genesis and say, what
was the world that God created and what did he
intend for it to be like? And how do we pursue
that? Yeah. So Genesis and, uh, the new Jerusalem,
like those are the, those are the, um, targets.
Yep. And of course that's the work of Christ
to bring it past, but he's pleased to work through
his agents. Yeah. He uses means. Right. He uses
means. And so nobody here thinks that we're going
to bring about, uh, the millennium, whatever
your eschatology is, that's Jesus, his work,
right? But Jesus does his work through his people.
And so we have to be giving ourselves to that
effort. Yeah. And if I may expand on your mining
analogy, I think there are also new things that
are being revealed to us that are new targets
for us. And just to make that analogy, and one
of the things that I'm studying to do right now,
I'm looking up some different elements that are
essential for a manufacturing of a yet to be
told endeavor of mine. But if you mine zinc,
Some of the offshoots of that or some of the
waste are like gallium and indium. Those elements
are gathered from the waste of zinc mining that
previously had no use for anybody. Nobody even
knew about them. So that's new things that are
being revealed and new targets that I think have
been presented to us, new targets to hit. Yeah.
Well, you know infinitely more about that than
I do, Jason, but I feel like I have to just affirm
what you're saying because that assumes that
the Lord has a future for the people who dwell
on this earth and that the resources that he
built into the creation like gallium have some
creational purpose that he intended mankind to
discover and utilize for his glory. And so, I
can't talk about that specific, but in principle,
I assume that that is right. And that we should,
it goes back to Nick's idea of a positive vision
for conservatives. We need to take ground and
maybe it's, uh, through implementation of underutilized
elements. Sure. All right. So practically speaking,
where could a listener go to find where good
work is being done in the minds? Like who's,
who's doing this stuff? That's a good question.
Some of this could not, I mean, maybe it's the
preservative stuff. Like we have. I'll just start
with American Reformer, because that's who I'm
affiliated with. But their goal is to reinvigorate
American Protestant civic and social thought.
And so they're going to forgotten sources of
Protestant thinkers who have answered a lot of
the questions that people are having right now.
And they've just been shelved and forgotten about.
And when COVID came through, everybody suddenly
panicked and was like, we don't have a political
theology. So everyone started looking for these
things and there was a handful of experts that
were kind of niche experts that were like let's
start let's start a blog basically or journal
and So they're they're going through the shelves
blowing the dust off of stuff that has been on
that has already been mined out of the ground
for us But I don't know what who else what else
where people finding things that are I think
if we were conservatives at work I guess if you're
thinking about You know, I brought up feminism
And if you read scripture, it's super obvious
that, um, God made men and women differently
and he made them to do different things or equal
and dignity, dignity, but men are made to lead
and to rule and women were created to help. And
we just don't really have categories for that
at all. Um, and so there's a couple of books
by a teaching elder in the PCA. Sorry, that's
a second. Presbyterian. If you're going to talk
about Zach Garis, that was who I went to talk
about Zach Garis. So Zach Garis is a, is a teaching
elder in the PCA and he has a book called masculine
Christianity, um, which really is just him walking
through all the scriptures and, um, doing it's,
it's very pastoral. He's doing pastoral work
to look at what, what do these texts, um, say
about men and women. And, um, so he's looking
at the scriptures. He has a kind of a follow
-up to that called honor thy fathers. which is
not particularly looking at the scriptures, but
looking at the same topic on men and women and
what the Orthodox Reformed, the Reformers, and
some of the later Reformers like the Westminster
Assembly had to say kind of their commentary
on the scriptures and what they have to say about
men and women. And so if you were wondering,
what should I believe about men and women? I
would point you to those two sources and they'll
point you back to Scripture. Well, so Gersh is
where I was going to pretty quickly. Michael
Clary is a pastor in the Cincinnati area. Michael
Foster is also in the area. He's done a lot of
work on sort of the same area. It's good to be
a man. He's done good there too. Michael Clary
wrote a book called God's Good Design for men
and women for households. There's a guy named
CR Wiley who's writing on households masculinity.
That's very helpful. And he has a book that's
been around for quite a while called Man of the
house and the house. Yeah. Yeah, that's another
book I give out now It's interesting to me I
mean Terry went to American reform, which is
true Civic thought needs to be developed but
to your point about feminism being the air that
we breathe now it really does my my mind immediately
goes to people who are bringing clarity to the
topic of what has God purposed these genders
to do. Because feminism has not just muddied
the waters, it's almost completely obscured.
It's poisoned the water to the point where you
can't hardly drink of it. It's such a dominant
influence on our society that it is something
like asking a fish to consider wetness. And so
these guys, Jared Moore is another one. These
guys who are stepping out and saying, actually,
Scripture is pretty clear on this, and we don't
have to pretend like it's ambiguous. Those are
where my mind goes immediately. So, Garris, Clary,
Moore. Just to throw something else into the
hopper, Terry and Nick have a real expertise
in classical Christian education. everybody around
this table has suffered within classical Christian
education for trying to just be, to just own
what's normal on these very topics we're talking
about. Classical Christian education is a good
endeavor to recover the idea that education is
discipleship. And so, we want to have the best
form of it, right? And what we talked about,
what's true, good, and beautiful? Well, the best
form of it, the most true, good and beautiful
form of that we've encountered yet is classical
Christian education. And so the group, the various
groups that are working on that are very important
to the future of our country, if Jesus tarries.
But beyond that, to the kingdom. And it's gotten
to a point of significance now that it is the
target of intentional efforts to subvert it and
to cut the legs out from under it, which is kind
of part of what we suffered as well. And so We've
got American Reformer on the list. We've got
Garris, Clary, Foster more on recovering God's
design for man and woman. And you've got classical
Christian education as a kind of a comprehensive
framework for raising a new generation that will
have a much better understanding of these things.
Yeah, I would point to the association of classical
Christian schools specifically as something to
look for if you're interested in the education
component, because there's others that are Classical
and I don't either don't know him well or don't
entirely trust him. So yeah something that kind
of In a way, you know at a very broad level sums
up all of those things as well Is that the work
of American reformer? What's what's that Gers
has done? with speaking about feminism and patriarchy
and what the ACCS has done. I heard the president
of ACCS, David Goodwin, say one time, classical
Christian education doesn't change, but our discovery
of it is growing. Because the classical Christian
education movement started because of Dorothy
Sayers' essay, The Lost Tools of Learning. And
in it, she references this medieval way of doing
education. And so in the late 70s, early 80s,
You know, Doug Wilson, a couple other places.
There's actually about three places in America.
This is how I believe that we providentially
know that the Lord was doing a work there is
because there's three different places, totally
unrelated in America that all started classical
Christian schools within about a three or four
year stretch of each other and didn't know about
each other. And so they're all trying to, they
all found this essay. They're all trying to recover
what is this medieval way of teaching. And so
now that it's been, you know, 50 years, the more
we've read the medieval as we started reading
the ancients, of course, our discovery of that
changes. It's the same way with political thought,
trying to read the reformers and what they say
about men and women in scripture. It's going
back to the sources. So it's the Latin term ad
fontes, going to the source, I think is just
generally a helpful principle. I mean, I know
we've been giving sources to go to, but for everybody
also to just do their own reading by going back
to as many of the original sources, as they possibly
can. I think that I would make the argument that,
you know, even our reform documents speak of
the Fifth Commandment in this way. So the Fifth
Commandment is to honor your father and your
mother. And the Westminster Larger Catechism
says something like, well, I actually think I
have it pulled up. So let me just read it to
you. This is a question. 123 says, what is the
fifth commandment? The fifth commandment is to
honor your father and your mother. Your days
may be long upon the land the Lord's given you.
And question 124 is, who are meant by father
and mother in the fifth commandment? And the
answer is, by father and mother in the fifth
commandment are meant not only natural parents,
but all superiors in age and gifts, and especially
such as, by God's ordinance, are over us in place
of authority, whether in family, church, or commonwealth.
thinking about people that are in authority over
you has to extend to past generations. And so
a recovery and an honoring, really what we're
talking about is piety, not piety in the popular
way we think about it, but piety in the way that
pretty much all Christians would have understood
piety until about 10 minutes ago, is an honoring
of your authorities over you. And that would
extend to your historical authorities, your fathers
and brothers and mothers, and sisters who came
before you who have things to offer to you. And
so I think American reformers doing that with
political theology. I think Zach Garris has been
doing that. ACCS has been doing that. So just
generally an encouragement to people to dive
back into, go as far back as you can. I mean,
even the project of the reformers was of course
to recover the scriptures. But if you read Calvin
and Luther, they're talking about the church
fathers. How did the first few generations of
Christians understand the scriptures? You know,
it's they're reading Augustine, they're reading
John Chrysostom, you know. It is, of course,
ultimately a project about understanding the
scriptures, but also what are our fathers that
are worth honoring? believe about these things.
Well, it's an ongoing project, right? So we talk
about simple referenda, right? Which is how you
got Baptist from the Reformation tradition. I
knew we couldn't escape without that. But that
noted, you know, I went to that mind analogy
earlier, but probably family is the better one.
So like with my family, I grew up in a family
that was pretty tight knit. I didn't understand
at the time, but it was uniquely tight knit.
Everyone in the family had something good to
say about Jesus. Jesus was held in high regard,
even those who weren't practicing their faith
held Jesus in high regard. Well, I was never
catechized, right? We went to church, but I was
never catechized. And so one of the things I
can do in sort of that, what did one generation
surface that's helpful? How do we carry it forward?
Well, I was given a high view of Christ, thank
God. I was given a high view of God's Word. And
the appropriate way for me to carry that forward
is to catechize my children and be intentional
about kind of the spiritual disciplines that
my family did not necessarily lead me in. I can
do that with my children. And so you're hopefully
building from strength to strength. You're taking
something good and building upon it even better.
Yeah. Can I play devil's advocate for just a
minute? I'm already antagonizing Nick about the
Baptist. No. Okay. So let's go to some bigger
organizations and we get your opinions about
them. So turning point. Yeah. I'm really thankful
for turning point and they're not just in a,
they're not just in a crisis because of Charlie
Kirk's assassination, but you know, there's their
significance is so clear to everybody now that
there's multiple, uh, factions. jockeying to
be the inheritor of Charlie Kirk. And the sharks
are in the water. And so I'm thankful for turning
point. Um, and I think we should pray for turning
point because they are in a, they are in a crisis
situation. Well, I can tell you from speaking
to people at turning point, actually that there,
you know, there's different kind of divisions,
right? So they've got turning point faith, turning
point, maybe action. I know those two. Uh, and
then there's turning point education. And I spoke
to a guy at turning point education. Um, And
he was, that conversation went really well and
he said that we're actually moving more, the
term doesn't seem to apply greatly here, but
we're moving more conservative. Our statement
of faith is about to be altered to become a explicitly
Protestant one. We're not gonna exclude Catholics
from joining us, but they've got to just kind
of deal with the fact that this is a Protestant
thing. They want to see it move in that direction.
You know, I've heard from other places that Turning
Point faith is not moving in a good direction.
Well, I think Charlie Kirk's wife is Catholic,
isn't she? I believe that's right. So, you know,
we'll see. But clearly there's multiple interests.
It's a large group. They've got a large donor
base. They've got a lot of money, and that's
going to bring people with dubious intentions.
So they do need prayer. But at the moment, if
you're just asking for my review of Turning Point,
I think they're a good organization. Yeah, I
think so too. Next would be like World Outreach
Church, Alan Jackson. Just I'm not familiar enough
to comment. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Well,
I mean, he has every year a big conference called
Culture and Christianity, and he highlights a
lot of the issues that the church is dealing
with. Charlie Kirk was slated to be there again.
Um, lots of, lots of relevant speakers. So I
think that's worth checking out world outreach.
That's in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. Okay. Um,
Canon plus, which is, uh, or just Canon, Canon
in general. So Canon is kind of part of the larger,
the Idaho, the Moscow, Idaho crowd, which gave
us, if everybody doesn't know, kind of gave us
one of the three centers of, uh, the recovery
of classical Christian education. Nick was talking
about earlier and the most prominent one. Yeah,
so thoughts on Canon and and and its corollaries
Yeah, I'm generally thankful for Canon now Just
in full transparency. I think some of the guys
in this room have heard me say that I have familial
disagreements with them Yeah, there are times
where I feel like They're the crazy uncle at
the party and then at the family reunion and
there are the times where I'm like, that's the
most venerated Uncle at the get -together And
I'm in this spot. I mean, you can just understand
there are people who I think criticize them from
within the family that have valid critiques.
Um, but anytime somebody criticizes them from
outside, I'm like, well, let's get our shotguns
and let's go, you know, how dare you. Um, very,
yeah. And so generally very thankful for Canon.
I, you know, if I had the screwdriver, I would
tighten some of the screws here and there in
different ways. But I'm generally very thankful
for them. And so Canon Plus is sort of the way
that you can easily access it online, right?
Virtually all their content, I think. And I would
kind of echo that sentiment. I'm broadly in agreement
with them. There's a few details that I'm not
thrilled about, but I hope that their project
continues to enjoy success. Yeah, and Canon Plus,
if you have a family, I think is a really great
tool. I know our family has, in seasons, had
Canon Plus. There's lots of great content for
children on there. You know, there's cartoons
and there's really thoughtful children's stories.
And, you know, Nate Wilson, whose pen name is
Indy Wilson, has the Stories are Soul Food podcast,
and that's a really helpful place if you're a
parent and you're trying to think about what
kind of stories do I give my kids. I think that's
a really good resource, you know, there. And
they've got kind of something for everybody really
yeah, you got they've got parenting books. They've
got marriage books. They've got My wife has a
story a wife has a cookbook from them. Okay.
Yeah. Yeah I've made a recipe from their cookbook
that you turned my attention to So with the Canon
thing as well Narrative is one of those deals
that hopefully most people listen to this already
understand how important that is for children
You probably wouldn't expect me to positively
quote Karen swallow prior On this podcast, she
has a book called, she was next on his list.
Officially in waters that I did not expect. I
am now in daily wire territory. Um, but she made
a very good point in the book. I wouldn't recommend
much of what she puts into the public sphere,
but in the book, she said that stories allow
us to enter into, um, situations that, uh, we
wouldn't, uh, we wouldn't know how to face in
the moment of crisis. So stories give us an early
opportunity to workshop those things. And to
go back to your point about biographies, Terry,
biographies are a better version of that. Right.
And so people who have actually lived through
those crises. So I want my kids knowing the story
of Edmund being tempted by the white witch. And
I also want them to know the story of Skanderberg
trying to save his ancestral land from an invading
force and having to Not just fight the invading
force, but the betrayers who should be aligned
with him. Yeah. And it gives me a clarity at
a distance. It, you know, Scanderberg's choices
can't affect me directly or immediately Edmonds
definitely can't, but it teaches me how to anticipate
those things. And you want your children weaned
on the right kind of stories. Yeah. That's, that's
really helpful because. Autobiographies are.
Biographies and autobiographies are history.
Which is the greatest story. Which is the greatest
story. And we are often told that the reason
why you would study history is so you're not
doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. Which
is true. There are vices that you read about
in history that you want to avoid. But it's also
the opposite. There are also men and women that
are virtuous, that are worth emulating. And we
want to read about their stories. And I think
that's why the culture is so adamant about tearing
down history and heroes, right? This is why George
Washington's a bad guy now and, and nothing,
you know, Robert E Lee never said anything good,
even though these were virtuous men. Um, and,
and stories do the same thing. It's just in your
imaginative, your moral imagination. Um, so biographies
and autobiographies and stories, like you said,
they, allow your mind to Think about people that
have faced Situations where they failed it's
not it's not even just about you know You know
the heroes there there there are stories worth
studying stories worth reading so that you don't
you know do whatever the the hero did or the
protagonist did not the hero necessarily, but
also like, uh, with, I mean, like the great Gatsby
is one example of, you know, where there's vice,
you know, it's like, you read that story. It's
an engaging story. If Scott Fitzgerald's writing
is engaging, if you say so, you, yeah, I mean,
I think so. Uh, but you read it and you, what
you learn is adultery really does kill. You know,
it's, it's I'm rooting for all of them to be
hit by meteor every time I try to read that,
but you're right. That's pretty much what it's
like. It's not a figurative meteor, but everybody's
life ends pretty miserably. Yeah, it's like Breaking
Bad. Catastrophic stories are helpful. Yes. In
that they tell you that actually, ruin does come
from bad choices. When sin is full grown, it
actually does bring death. Yeah, well said. Well,
the stories of these crusaders mention Skanderbeg,
and then I've been reading about these guys.
Sometimes that story is, how do you... How do
you behave when the end is come when you're not
going to get the thing that you want? Yeah, what
what should Christians think when they're evicted
from the Holy Land that they believe God has
turned his back on them and Reading those guys
actual words about their thoughts their prayers
Very interesting stuff. Yeah. I mean Nick has
put Robert Ely's reflections upon the The what's
that? Well, I can't remember the term the post
Civil War destruction of the South. Reconstruction.
Reconstruction. Just the fact that he felt it
virtuous and important to remain optimistic about
what could be done. He was hopeful all the way
to the end of his life. Even as the land that
he loved so much is being brutalized. That's
helpful. And went back, you know, and I think
lived in a world where he said we've lost a lot.
How do we regain those things that are good?
And he decided the way to do that was education.
So he devoted pretty much the rest of his life
to particularly to higher education. Yeah. Well,
I mean, he saw, right. And he saw what the Marxists
have seen that that's also a way to destroy things.
I guess the, the final point on those story kind
of deals there is that we do live in a world
of men with clay feet. And so I'm an evangelical
kind of With your heroes. You've got RC Sproul
dying. Well You've got John MacArthur dying.
Well, and then just a bacham voting bacham dying
Well, then you've got a list of guys that I looked
up to my their books are my bookshelf. They've
made shipwreck and Postmodernism pushes us to
believe that there's nothing actually good authentically
good everything is sort of ruinous, you know,
the movie wicked is Out in theaters it's the
classic postmodern story turns out the bad guys
actually the good guy the good guys this secret
evil person this is postmodernism effect on us
in. Are you familiar with the dead hero theory
and you probably are but you know by the name.
Don't believe so. It's this idea that you shouldn't
have any heroes who are still alive. Oh, yeah,
I've heard that before Yeah, because if your
heroes are still alive, they can just you know
disappoint you Yeah, well you sometimes hear
that never meet your heroes, which I think it's
kind of a similar sentiment Like they're never
what you think they are. Yeah So now there may
be some teeth to that. Yeah, I mean Kind of living
through unless it's Luke Skywalker talking unless
it's ryan johnson talking about Luke Skywalker
in which case That's very precise, Nick. It seems
like there may be some trauma there. Disney tried
to destroy my childhood. Yeah, for sure. George
Lucas did that to me in 1999. The point being
that I think that reading history does tell me
actually good men, not perfect men, but good
men exist and some of them make it to the end
well. I hope my kids, to whatever degree they
think of me well, my ambition Is that they would
say dad died well, right? But history gives me
a litany of men who I can say this actually does
postmodernism is not right. Um, all the examples
of men who fail very close to the finish line.
That's ultimately not the final word either.
There are people in history that you can look
to who finished their race well. And, and it,
it, it helps it remain a credible ambition. Yeah.
Yeah. That's helpful. All right. What do you
got anymore? Jason, you want to lay on us? Okay.
Just throw in a few, a few, uh, other miners
out there. This is the mining episode. That's
the, going to have to be the title of the mining
episode. I'll throw one out there that, and just
let me go ahead and say the views stated here,
uh, are Jeff Wright's alone and do not reflect
necessarily the other minimum is car. Um, but
I'm going to say that for the, for the, the state
of our public discourse, I think Tucker Carlson
is doing really important work. He is being destroyed
by what I would call. false accusations in certain
arenas. But I think he's basically the last high
level journalist we have. He talks about things
that people in private conversation are talking
about all the time, but we don't have the journalistic
resources to suss out what may be true there.
And so he just recently released an episode on
the, the would be Trump assassin in Pennsylvania.
I can't count the number of conversations I've
had with people being like, what is this guy's
deal? What do we know about him? We even have
the FBI telling us like, well, he's just basically
a ghost online. Tucker actually went and did
journalism and gave us a 30 minutes told Alice
in that episode in 30 minutes, he told us so
much about that guy and we knew nothing. Yeah,
it was 30 minutes and it was infinitely more
than we'd gotten from any other source. And so
again, there are criticisms of him out there.
He, by his own attestation, he is a baby Christian
who is trying to learn the faith. So sometimes
he'll say things about Christianity where I'm
like, you know, Tucker, I would probably tighten
that screw a little differently. But in terms
of journalism, I don't know anybody comparable.
And so I'm really thankful for Tucker Carlson.
Yep. I would co -sign that. Yeah. I think the
argument against what he did with his more recent
interview is give Light to, or give time to the
wrong side. Well, the Nick Fuentes thing. Yeah.
I have nothing good to say about Nick Fuentes
other than he does raise the voice of his, the
questions and the objections of his generation
in a unique way. That's the only good thing I
can say about Nick. Um, and so I don't want to
kind of re -enter that debate here within this
room. That said, Jason, where I come down on
that is I think it's within the purview of a
journalist. It may not be the choice I would
make, but I also don't, I don't see it as some
scandalously crazy thing. So I can remember.
This is the same guy who interviewed Vladimir
Putin. Right. Remember he also actively interviews
people from the left. I mean, I can, I can't
remember her name, but it's the lady who has
been on Young Turks for years. Yeah. Yeah. And
he's interviewed her a couple of times and she's
a pretty far leftist on a lot of things. She's
one of the people that now Kind of gets lumped
into the not so left middle that you were talking
about at the beginning of the episode Because
she won't go with the radical left on some things
So, I mean that's probably why he's interviewing
her but she's way left on a lot of things and
he doesn't get filleted for interviewing her
Yeah, and you know Seth Dillon of the Babylon
B is one of his most vocal critics when Seth
was being canceled Tucker Adam on a show So again,
I may not make every choice the same. Yeah. I
probably would have interviewed Nick Fuentes,
but he's a journalist and he can really want
to interview. Well, I'll tell you this interview
done at the actually talk to him some, so I don't
think I would do that. Yeah. I mean, it would
be, it'd be an interesting conversation if I
did that. That said, um, what I said about Nick
is I do think he gives a voice to his, uh, demographic
is popular for a reason. There's something going
on there. And so as a guy who doesn't listen
to Nick Fuentes ever, other than clips that show
up on Twitter, it was helpful for me to hear
that. And I actually think it's helpful because
if we want to disarm a guy like Nick Fuentes
or Andrew Tate or some of these voices that are
ostensibly on the right that we would say are
not helpful. We've got to provide a better alternative.
And so hearing Nick raise, we need Christian
men raising the questions that Nick Fuentes raises
and answering them better than he answers them
in a godly way. Yeah. And so again, I might've
done some things differently, but ultimately
I was even thankful for that interview because
I realized where the work is with young men now
better probably than I did before. Yeah. Are
any of you guys familiar with George Janko? He's
a, he's a comedian now, but he. He's a very strong
Christian. And I would point you guys, um, to
his interview of Jordan Peterson. Okay. That's
that relieved all doubt about Jordan Peterson
being a Christian. Yeah. Um, that's what I prefer
for Jordan. Well, Jordan, he has always been
very standoffish about answering whether or not
he's a Christian. And his argument is. I don't
like the way the question was asked and they
were backing me in a corner, you know, with that.
Yeah. And that's always the reason that he is
denied that question whenever he was asked that.
So I would, I would highly recommend that, that
episodes. Uh, Jenko Jenko. Okay. Yeah. But that
really shed a lot of light on Jordan Peterson
because I've looked up to Jordan Peterson, not
on all levels, but on many levels. for a while
now. And, uh, I just, I really appreciate some
of the things that he's done. His studies on
different books, the Bible and things like that
really like showed me a lot that I wouldn't have
been exposed to otherwise in a good way. Yeah.
Yeah. And Peterson was kind of a prototype for
you were talking about Andrew Tate and Nick Fuentes
and that I don't, I don't say that to bash Jordan
Peterson, but the younger millennials, older
zoomers. Came to Peterson because he was offering
order to them in a chaotic world And I think
that's part of the appeal of some of these guys.
I mean even a guy like Andrew Tate who's a villain
is Trying to I mean he's trying to enrich himself
ultimately But he's at least tapped into an unlike
an actual market demand of like we're tired of
chaos So this is a great place for the church
to step in and be able to answer the same Like
you have the questions, don't go ask that guy.
Don't go to ask Nick Fuentes. But also we're
not going to run you out the door if you ask
an offensive question to us. Well, to that point,
you can cultivate a market by selling base things.
Yeah. Right. You can, you can cultivate a market
by providing things that no one should want.
So like the porn industry exists. Right. That's
close to Tate. But there is a thread there with
Tate that you're talking about that overlaps
with Jordan Peterson that it actually is important
to conservatives because he's offering a vision
that is alternative to feminized masculinity.
It's the wrong one, but that doesn't mean the
underlying desire for a better vision of what
these young people have grown up with is wrong.
Well, how many, how many pagan and I wouldn't,
I wouldn't call it Tate a philosopher Peterson.
I would. But how many pagan philosophers have
gotten the diagnosis right, but not the cure
right. This is part of the reason why Nietzsche
continues to be a draw for lots of folks is because
he's right about a lot of the things that he's
pointing at and saying these are the problems
and here's my solutions and the solutions are
all bad because they're not biblically based.
So, you know, throwing the baby out with the
bathwater, I guess, kind of. I don't read Nietzsche
because he's, you know, Don't what you don't
want to do is is adopt niches worldview wholesale
because you'll end up a suicidal nihilist. But
when somebody and even marks right like marks
is a guy that we everybody in this room hates
but like. He was right about some of the diagnosis
like he got some of the problems he noticed them
the reasons why they were problems he didn't
get right the reasons are how to solve them he
didn't get right so. We have a long history of
people showing up, identifying the problems rightly,
offering bad solutions, and in the absence of
good solutions, people go to that, which is where
guys like Fuentes and Tate come from. Peterson's
in a different league from them, I think. But
there is something similar there in that, with
Peterson, order instead of chaos. Tate, thriving
as a man. Fuentes, young people don't have a
vision of how they can participate in society
economically. That is kind of an Issachar thing
to be able to say, okay, there's a whole bunch
of garbage here, but there's actually something
helpful here for the people who want to actually
do good to their neighbor. They can help them
understand the issue better. So now let's get
to work providing something better as an alternative
vision. Right. So a man of Issachar knows the
times and knows what to do. And they know the
times, but they don't know what to do. So that's
where the that's where the gap is, I think. Well,
I know where I'm going to buy my Christmas tree.
Oh, where's that? Duncan's tree lot. That's right.
Serving the upper Cumberland. And you can drive
the upper Cumberland very quickly from lots of
different places in the world. Louisiana and
we have Arkansas 111 north and south. We have
interstate 40 east and west. It's an easily accessible
area. Tell me about your trees. These are not
junk trees, right? No, they're not junk trees.
They are Appalachian grown Frasier firs, which
in my opinion are the best. Trees to have for
Christmas. Appalachian trees will shoot at intruders.
That's right. That's one of the things they have.
They have shotguns built into the trucks. Do
not pull up into the driveway of a Frasier fir.
Now you've got to keep them away from alcohol,
but they will. What's the advantage of the Frasier
fir? We all, you hear about Christmas trees.
Everybody kind of thinks pine trees. Yeah. Pine's
not really the ideal. Pine is not the ideal.
Pine are really sappy and any tree, um, especially
evergreen have sap. Yes. Just like Hallmark movies.
Um, you know, pines have a lot of sap. They lose
their needles. Um, uh, pretty quick alarming
rate, uh, an alarming rate and a phrase refers
are they do, they have the best needle retention.
You might vacuum a couple of times while you
have it up for, you know, depending on how many
weeks you keep your tree up. So for some of us,
that's longer than how many toddlers you have
in the home may well affect the shedding rate
as well. But they have great needle retention.
They last several weeks. They'll last well through
the Christmas season. And, you know, you make
a clean cut at the at the base of the trunk and
they'll they'll drink water for a lot of weeks
and stay nice and fresh. They smell great. That's
my favorite part of a live tree. The whole house
will smell like Christmas. That's right. And
they can only grow at certain elevations. And
so the Fraser firs come from tree farms, primarily
in Appalachia. So the trees that I will be selling
in Cookville are grown in Western North Carolina,
particularly in a place called Avery County.
So I actually live there for a chunk of my raising.
And my dad was a pastor there, and we lived in
a parsonage. And the church's house that we lived
in, it was just Christmas trees as far as the
eye can see. And so we always had artificial
trees up until that point. And we moved there.
The locals quickly told us no one has an artificial
tree up here. Artificial trees don't go around
here. That's right. And say, don't, don't let,
don't let artificial intelligence do your thinking
and don't let artificial trees do your treeing.
So you need a real Christmas tree. Yeah. So what's
the address for the GPS is, uh, it is 200, uh,
North old Kentucky Avenue, old Kentucky road,
200 North old Kentucky road in Cookville, Tennessee.
So you can come by or we'll, uh, we'll have fresh.
cut Fraser for Christmas trees and wreaths, um,
uh, and Garland, um, tabletop Christmas trees
as well. If you want a centerpiece. So that'll
be starting, uh, this Friday, uh, which is the
21st. Yeah. And, and so we'll be selling on Friday
and Saturday. We'll take a break for the Lord's
day and then we'll be back on Monday and we'll
sell all week, the week of Thanksgiving and into
the weekend after Thanksgiving. And we'll sell
as long as we have trees to sell. Just think
of it as. An unwoke hallmark experience. That's
right. The true and better hallmark experience.
Yes. Nick, you're talking about the source of
those trees you're selling. Was that area affected
by Hurricane Helene? Very affected. Yeah. So
my parents still live in the area. They do technically
live in Tennessee, but they're only, you know,
probably a mile and a half, two miles from the
North Carolina border. And my brother and sister
live on the other side of the mountains in North
Carolina. And they were all thankfully minimally
affected, but tons of people that live around
them were devastated. There's one, if you're
familiar with Appalachia, of course you have
hollers. And then at the bottom of the hollers,
where the mountains kind of run into these sharp
ravines, they're called bottoms, typically. And
so there's one particular place called Beach
Bottom, which is at the bottom of the holler
that my brother lives in. There were several
houses in Beach Bottom that I used to drive by
all the time And when I went up there to visit
my brother and look at his property make sure
they were okay After after Helene came through
all the houses in Beach Bottom were gone If you
didn't know they were there you would have never
known they thought anything was there just look
like a creek bed So very very affected. There's
still people that Are making it living in campers
and and things of that nature and rebuilding.
And so, yeah, if you're a prayer warrior, and
I hope you are, if you're listening to this,
the people of Appalachia could still use your
prayers recovering from that hurricane. Well,
very practically, what was behind my question
is that, I mean, this is an extension of some
miles, but you're doing commerce with people
trying to rebuild their lives after. hurricane
Helene by buying their Christmas trees. The primary
commerce that the folks in western North Carolina
do, where I grew up, and the places where I'm
talking about, Avery County, Watauga County,
if you're familiar with Boone, it's near there.
Those folks run Christmas tree farms, and they
cut them like crazy in October, November, and
they ship them all over the place. My dad's best
friend is owned a tree farm for a long time and
he's sold trees to the white house before. Oh
yeah. And so it's, it's actually the preferred
tree of the white house. Uh, the, there have
been Fraser fir trees in the white house more
than any other, um, top of Christmas tree. So,
yeah. So you mean, you, you know, you could go
help the people still suffering from the effects
of Hulling, but buying a tree there and hauling
it back, or you could let Nick bring it this
way for you. That's right. And you can, you can,
you don't, you don't have to even drive up there.
You can just come to cookville. All right, guys.
Well, I think that's going to wrap us up. Thank
you guys for joining us. We, if you have any
questions, you can email us at it's a car podcast
at gmail .com. Aren't you contractually obligated
as a podcaster to end an episode by saying, leave
a rating and review on your favorite platform
because it helps other people find us. Like and
subscribe. Do it, like and subscribe. Smash the
like button and ring the bell so you can get
shared on your socials. No really. I'm going
to leave you with a track with one of my good
friends, Mr. Marcus Hill, bury me there. I heard
the warden say, here's a dead man walking Car
gave a knock, pointed me to my cell Seems like
ages, I've lived in cages Might seem strange,
but I like how they feel The drink put me down
and the pills woke me up Spirit came by to feed
on my lust Hooked on a craving Smothered in doubt,
then I found Jesus And he broke me out I'm on
a run to the river Hey, preacher, meet me there
Bring the undertaker, not a moment to spare Chase
me down