Welcome to Fandom Shmandom, the fandom podcast
that covers everything you love and more. I'm
Sierra Obermark. And I'm Sam Williams. And a
big, giant, welcome shmelcom to our expert on
today's episode. It's Garrett Fielding, y'all.
Welcome, Garrett. Hi, everyone. Thanks for having
me back. Yay, welcome. Yes, excellent. Alrighty,
then. So. Today, Garrett will be disseminating
all of his wonderful information about the illustrious
Darth Maul. Yes, Darth Maul. Garrett, what is
your favorite moment from Maul's malevolent maliciousness?
Well, this is a little bit of an overlap with
the answer from the Obi -Wan episode, but Maul
versus Qui -Gon and Obi -Wan is an excellent
fight. That is, again, one of the best sword
fights in all of cinema. I will die on that hill.
As a viewer, as a small child, you know, in the
9, 10, 11 -year -old range, the moment where
Maul reveals himself in the Nebu Palace just
before that fight, when he first activates the
double -ended lightsaber for the first time.
Oh, yes. That was a mind -blowing moment. Not
only as, like, a child who had, like, who could
have thought that there could be multiple blades?
My God. But also, like, the audience reaction
at the time was phenomenal. Amazing. And boom
again. Second, second lightsaber comes out. Yeah,
that's incredible. Yeah, I, I feel very similarly.
Sierra, what is what is your favorite moment
from Maul's illustrious career? Oh, man. I mean,
I feel like that moment is just so iconic. And
it's really where you kind of have this Oh, who
are we dealing with here? What is going on? And
Then that really sparks the, we want to know
more about this guy. And then, you know, spoiler
alert, he dies a few minutes later. Because up
until then, he was just kind of a pest. Yeah.
Right. He's just there. Yeah. He's trying to
mow down a child in the desert. He's cloaked
and brooding. And his lightsaber handle's too
long. Because you don't know it's double -sided
yet, so it's just like this giant silver handle,
and you're like, why is that guy's handle so
big? You know, I don't remember noticing that
on first watch. Really? I don't think I did either.
I remember as a kid in the theater being like,
that's too big. Now, you know, looking at it
on subsequent viewings, absolutely. Yeah, of
course. You know, first time. I don't know that
I was paying attention that closely. Excellent.
Glad I'm the only one of world -renowned Sherlockian
-ness. I will say, I do give an honorable mention
to Ahsoka and Maul's fight in Clone Wars. So,
what I was going to say is... I don't know that
that's necessarily my favorite, though. It's
so iconic, but I don't think it's my favorite
Maul moment. Where my favorite Maul -ism comes
in is when you really see what his plot on Mandalore
was before the... Ahsoka bit with Order 66 and
all of that. So when you can see him basically
pulling a Palpatine and all right, I'm going
to dangle you over here and I'm going to shoo
you in this direction and then you are going
to fight these people. And oh, look who's ruling.
It's me! Oh, what have we here? What? Oh, oops!
I think I have the crown. Exactly. So I feel
like that is really where I go, okay, yes. You
know, might there have been some judgment here
and there about bringing him back and his plot
up until this point? All of those things, I feel
like by the time that his I mean, essentially
genius is revealed during that plot line. I'm
all in. I'm, I'm so all in. I'm going, okay,
yes, he is a force to be reckoned with. He has
some brains going on in there. He is not just,
you know, this muscle that's sent in to be just
this Sith assassin, essentially a version of
an apprentice. Like he has, knowledge like he
is very very intelligent so that's i think my
favorite that's that's definitely my favorite
moment of his is really realizing who you're
really up against i there's a lot to like about
what they do with maul after he stops being in
spider -like form and and to me i think he's
much more interesting as a solo character than
when he's with savage even though he has some
interesting moments of power and and sort of
showing off like the the plague assiduous line
of thinking certainly he's manipulative and and
i think his ruling of the underworld that he
gets to uh with the pikes being under his control
and black sun etc is really effective and interesting
i will say as much as i love the animation style
of clone wars and especially when their budget
is just like zipped up as much as possible for
season seven and they capture all sorts of movement
really well There is something about Ray Park's
physicality that he brings to Maul that is irreplaceable
to me. And I love all of this updating of the
fact that he's not just muscle. He's not just
Dave Bautista's character in that Bond movie
he's in where he's just like silent and deadly.
But Maul has intelligence with him, has conniving
inside him. That's all really effective. He's
a really expressive. character, despite having
not a whole lot of lines in his introductory
film. Yeah. And, and I know that there was quite
a bit of disappointment in that original movie
with a phantom menace and people thinking in
the trailer, it's mall, not Palpatine, but he
only has this one line. And then there's, he
just brings this menace to it, but he's not actually
the phantom. That's Palpy. So I, but Ray Park's
physical. and the motion and the power behind
the movements. I specifically am thinking about
there's this one moment where he force grabs
like some sort of box on the ground and throws
it into an electrical panel. And that movement
is so sharp and so defined, it's almost dancer
-like. And there's just no capturing of that
in the animation to me. So that's the reason
why I think... Duel of Fates Maul beats out Clone
Wars Maul, although there are so many great moments,
as you pointed out, Sierra, of Maul's whole actual
character coming out. Mm -hmm. Right. Maul sort
of suffered from what I will call Boba Fett syndrome,
in that this really cool character is introduced
that people want to know more about, and his
time is cut short very quickly. Very quickly.
Mm -hmm. At least he didn't go out in a whimper
like Boba does. Correct. Correct. Boba gets,
he screams, and then is eaten alive, and then
the Sarlacc burps. Yeah. Like, that is not, at
least you and McGregor got to cut this guy in
half. So if you haven't guessed, dear listeners,
missioners, today's episode, we will be malevolently
mumbling about Maul, Darth Maul. Well, folks,
we officially have a Patreon. Woohoo! There will
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it. Indeed. Without further ado, we will, as
Roger Smith says, dive on in. We will begin with
the when category. When are viewers introduced
to Darth Maul, and how do our Schmisseners mainly
know him? The merch. And the trailer of Phantom
Menace is how, is how people first were introduced
to him is, is just freaking out about who this
so Sith coded, like red and yellow eyes. Red
and black tattoos that you thought were maybe
his actual, like, alien coloring. Little horned
devil. Like, such an allusion to sort of Catholic
paintings of devils in the Renaissance time.
There could be no question that this guy is your
ultimate bad guy. This is the Phantom Menace,
Darth Maul. Then we actually got to know him
in the movie. And while perception changed about
him, this is... He still was a pretty bad -bottomed
character, as I can say. Underutilized is what
I'll go with. Yeah, certainly. So, he's apprenticed
to Darth Sidious. He's tracking Qui -Gon Jinn
and Obi -Wan and more Queen Amidala at this time,
trying to get her to sign a treaty to start...
all this war shenanigans so that Palpatine can
take over and become emperor. And he seems to
be completely in on everything and working very
closely with his master and doesn't even have
any qualms with what's happening. And also, as
Sierra and I noted in our Phantom Menace podcast,
he seems like he has amazing tracking abilities
because if you remember Sierra. When we're discussing
the Phantom Menace gear, I don't remember if
you've noticed this or not. They get this transmission
from Naboo saying, the people are starving, you
must make contact with me. And then Obi -Wan
and Qui -Gon are talking about it, and they're
like, it seems like bait to have a connection
tracing. Send no reply, send no transmission
of any kind. And then, without any explanation,
Maul's on Tatooine. Maul just shows up. There's
no reason for him. They haven't replied. They've
sent no transmission. No, it's like, you know,
sometimes businesses will send out advertising
emails and they can tell if you've opened it
or not. Oh, I see. So they made a connection
just because they opened it. That's what I'm
going to go with. This is why you don't open
spam email, kids. There you go. Yeah, I'm pretty
sure they opened it on the ship and Maul went...
Tatooine. It's been opened. Kenobi. He like pre
-knows about his rivalry. They're just actually,
they're a force dyad and we just don't know it.
Yeah. Okay. So that, that's all that situation.
On to the who category. Who is Maul? What defines
him? What makes him tick? What's likable and
dislikable about him? I'll tell you one thing.
He is tenacious. He is defined by his just revenge
mode with absolute no qualms. One track mind,
he has this savagery, but also this genius behind
him. And he has this, after Phantom Menace, once
we get into Clone Wars, just this hatred of Obi
-Wan, which... takes over everything, but makes
him very, very, as you said, tenacious. He is
so driven to get back at Obi -Wan for essentially
killing him that he will stop at nothing and
creates these very, very, very elaborate plots
in order to get Obi -Wan to come and deal with
him so that he can get his revenge. Honestly,
they pretty much work. Except for season seven,
where Ahsoka shows up and he goes, why are you
here? Who are you? And why are you here? And
where the heck is Obi -Wan? Where on earth is
my little Obi -Bobi? I would characterize it
as Maul is driven by lots of feelings. Yeah,
I... feelings so many feelings he has a lot of
feelings and now those feelings are like rage
grief and like abandonment issues but yeah they
are lots of feelings nonetheless he is he is
Almost a didactic embodiment of what the dark
side is. And at times so much so that he feels
one dimensional. And I know that part of his
character is just to be the villain off in the
corner. And they're trying to develop different
villains. Ventress and Dooku and Savage. uh palpatine
and so there's an anakin being of like trying
to make anakin be a villain but there are times
in clone wars where he's a static character he's
not dynamic and this comes back to play in rebels
as well and so i feel that there are still moments
where he's underutilized which is why i was so
excited in solo when he pops up for a brief moment
because i'm like oh man a whole different side
where he's just in charge of the underworld that
i'm excited about because i can get behind a
lot of this other stuff that's very in line with
his character but he can be a little one note
i think to his detriment yes yeah so who is this
guy maul comes from a planet called death amir
and it's unclear as to exactly when he's picked
up by palpatine to be his apprentice but he is
his apprentice for a while there's an awesome
little comic series that's canon about uh pre
Pre -Phantom Menace, that explains a little bit
of what their relationship is like, and Maul
learning to trust and feel a sense of why there
needs to be control and why there needs to be
order. And that really follows his line through,
too, of whatever situation he is in, he's like,
there needs to be more control and more order,
and it's got to be done by me. So he is, as we
mentioned, the apprentice to Darth Sidious. He
is the brother. of Savage Oppress, who shows
up in Clone Wars. He is a part of a matriarchal
society, so he doesn't actually rule if he had
been left to his own devices on the planet of
Dathomir. And he is Obi -Wan Kenobi's biggest
annoyance, while he is Obi -Wan Kenobi's, in
his mind, biggest rival. He's obsessed with revenge
over Kenobi, which Sam Witwer definitely... shows
off in his voice acting of the way that he shouts,
Kenobi! Kenobi! It's great. It's much better
than what Gare and I just did. And that's kind
of what's going on. And what's cool here is he
shows off a lot of this weird, dark side. force
healing adjacent so we know with with ray and
rise of skywalker force healing is a real thing
it's been canonized you can take a little bit
of your life essence and put in somebody else's
so that they're healed cool awesome there's no
problems with that whatsoever and we'll definitely
never talk about it but there is this idea that
was first in old eu uh with vader and how when
vader would get extremely angry and extremely
passionate that he would start to heal his body
with the dark side. And then he would start to
feel happy. And so everything would stop and
go away. And we see that show up with Maul because
he's also the guy that was cut in half. Like,
if we're talking about who Maul is, what defines
him, he was a man that was cut in half and survived.
And the reason why we're given that he survives
is that he's so full of rage and hatred for,
say it with me now, Kenobi. That he survives
this being split in half, cauterized. And like,
there is some stuff to be said about the fact
that he's not going to bleed out. Right. This
is, all of this is, let's be clear, a retcon,
right? None of this was intended after the, after
episode one was released. Maul's survival was
not intentional. The fan. reaction to this potentially
really cool character is what drives the necessity
to like bring this character back. Right. And
we, you know, whether or not you're into like
the reasoning of why he survives canonically
doesn't really matter. The point is that this
is like, this is a retcon that, that Lucasfilm
at the time felt was necessary in order to like
bring back a character to, to add to the repertoire.
I'm, this is where I'm going to plant my flag.
and say, Maul is an excellent character. What
they do with Maul in The Clone Wars is fantastic.
He's an excellent character. I don't like bringing
people back from the dead. Okay, so I did this
for my first hot take, my second hot take for
TikTok, which was... I absolutely love what they
do with Maul, but I absolutely hate the fact
that they brought him back. This is something
that you and I talk about all the time, Garrett,
which is that death has to matter somewhere.
Death has to be important. And this is, in my
mind, this is one of the genesis moments of death
has no meaning in Star Wars. I agree. That has
no meaning in Star Wars. If it were the only
example, if it were the only one, maybe we wouldn't
be having this discussion. But it like spawns
a bunch of other instances of this happening,
which I think becomes a problem. Well, and it
also leans into this. A lot of people in Star
Wars have been stabbed by lightsabers in the
Disney era and live to tell the tale. Versus
Qui -Gon Jinn gets stabbed by a lightsaber and
dies. And then... And Darth Maul gets cut in
half and dies, but then is brought back because
of merch and storytelling reasons. And I'm not
trying to necessarily poop on that, but it is
a thing that occurred. Like, this is driven by
fan reactions and all the stuff that comes with
fan reactions, fan love that leads to more money
based off of the character. It also happens at
the expense of Ventress, who basically disappears
off the face of the planet in Clone Wars after
Maul is introduced. And he takes her spot, and
Savage and Maul take her spot quite a bit. And
I'm a little disappointed because I'm a big Ventress
defender. But the main point being, as you're
saying, Garrett, is that death has to matter.
And when death stops mattering, it becomes a
giant problem. Because in all franchises, you
and I go, well, okay, why is this person actually
dead? Why can't they bring this person back?
It's all about emotional weight. Yeah. I'm pretty
much in line with where you guys are. Death has
to matter. It bothers me that this is kind of
the first one that really sparks a pattern of
death not mattering. And we see this in other
franchises. Star Wars is by no means the only
one who has fallen prey to this. And while sometimes
it works, I will give an out -of -universe example.
I think Loki continuing to come back from the
dead and continuing to not be dead works because
it's Loki. It's because of who that character
is and his whole disguising himself and always
having a second plan and just him being a trickster,
period, makes sense. Almost any other character,
It does not make sense. And it bothers me because
it's just because you don't want to let go of
them. And if you don't want to let go of them,
don't make them die. If you want to keep their
story going, just keep their story going. You
don't have to try to get some sort of an emotional
reaction out of the fans or out of the other
characters in the scene or whoever it might be
and then go, oh, but they're fine. Because then
that completely disregards all of the emotions
that you just had. And then the next time that
someone's in danger, I'm just going to go, they're
fine. Yeah. I'm not going to care. So this is,
I feel similarly about the way that you do about
Loki as I do the Master and Doctor Who, who is
never dead no matter what. But that's also built
into that character. With Loki, the tricksterness
is built in there. And also in Norse mythology.
Loki is never dead. And also, there's a little
bit to be said about, like, the fact that the
Norse gods are held onto because of people's
belief in them, so they can never actually die.
Like, there's a whole bit of rigmarole and magic
and, like, actual lore for Loki's character outside
of Marvel. I will also say Jon Snow being brought
back to life in Game of Thrones worked for me
because of the established magic that had already
been brought up with the Red Woman. What is her
name? Yeah. Yeah, the Red Woman. Yeah. And so
all of that was totally fine. It's this idea
of retconning. And they did it with Boba Fett,
too, to be fair. And when I was 10 years old,
that didn't matter to me. I just wanted to read
more books about Boba Fett. So the fact that
he gets to punch out of the Sarlacc and come
back to life because fans loved him rocked then.
But there's still there's still something different
about, OK, he gets swallowed alive and then he
is still alive in there and he is a Mandalorian
and he has tons of weaponry on him. So he he
explodes the Sarlacc from inside and crawls out.
OK, for whatever reason that I give that a little
bit more grace. It feels more believable. Then
I got cut in half and clearly died and then was
brought back 12 years later because kids liked
me. I'm curious how much of that reaction is
because of like the mysticism element of the
explanation of like, oh, well, he survived because
of rage in the force, right? Like he willed himself
to be alive versus Boba Fett, which is like a
very utilitarian example of like, I have tools.
My body is surrounded by a Swiss army knife.
Yeah. A malfunctioning Swiss army knife, but
a Swiss army knife. Well, to be fair. I also
think I think it really just goes back to what
you're saying is that it's a difference between
established canonical reasoning. Yeah. And we
feel like it. So we're going to write in a reason
that does technically make sense, but we've never
talked about it before. So I think that's really
the difference. Now, all of that being said.
I love Maul. That's true. I will totally agree.
What they did with Maul afterward and the way
they wrote him, he's an excellent character.
Fantastic work. Yes. But there will always be
this little quibble at the beginning of his story.
So, Garrett, with all that being said about Maul
coming back and that being annoying and death
not being a real thing, et cetera, et cetera,
and I will also split hairs here. Obi -Wan is
dead. A force ghost is still dead, right? He
can't do other stuff. So I don't want to hear
from people who are like, yeah, but death has
never mattered ever since Obi -Wan spoke to Luke
in his brain during the shootout. I mean, no,
no, no, that's totally different. So I will say
now that it's established that death doesn't
matter as much. I was super really down for a
how do we find Ben Solo in the force and bring
him back to life? I would have been especially,
especially because of what they do in rebels,
which I know neither of you have seen yet. So
I'll, I'll keep this brief without spoiling much.
They, there is a pathway, uh, between worlds
as they call it. And that is, was sort of the
plan on how to find Ben Solo to bring him back.
And I'm, there's very, the, the best thing that
they did in the sequels, in my opinion, was the
relationship between Kylo and Ray. And if they're
going to do more Ray, I think you've got to have
some element of Kylo there. And so I was like,
heck yes, let's go get Ben Solo. And then they're
like, no, no, no. The movie was shot down because
Disney execs didn't know how Ben Solo was alive.
I'm not going to lie. This is another case of
like, could it have been good to have more Kylo
Ray story? Absolutely. Too late now. You painted
yourself into a corner. Okay. I will accept it.
I was super down for it because I love Adam Driver
and I want more of that. That's true. And this
is another perfect example. Kylo Ren's character
is quite interesting. There are a lot of things
you can do there. Adam Driver is an excellent
actor. He does that character very well. I would
want more Kylo Ren content. The problem is this
is what happens when you write something without
thinking all the way through. But OK, so it's
a little bit hard to have this conversation without
having seen Rebels because they there is a character
that is saved by going through the world between
the worlds. And it has to do with a timing element
of it. So they could have essentially saved him
before he died. I know. Which I think is how
they were going to do that. I get it. But OK,
so this is my other problem is. Time travel does
not excuse death either. Like bringing someone
back for the sake of it is bad, but also using
time travel as like a, no, we didn't, we didn't
get, we saved him ahead of time. That is not,
that is not any better. All right. I will, I
will cop to that. Unless, unless the point of
the thing is time travel. Yes. That is a hundred
percent my opinion on time travel. If the point
of, what it is is time travel yeah i accept time
travel if you are using time travel as a tool
within your existing story to do things or fix
things that you went whoopsie on no yeah when
so garrett and i saw we didn't see an end game
together but we saw on the same night and i remember
sitting down in the theater and as soon as it
became a time travel movie i went ah garrett
He's with me. We both kind of hate this. And
it's so funny because Prisoner of Azkaban is
objectively my favorite is what I think is the
objective best Harry Potter book. And that is
a time travel book. The entire point of that
book is built around time travel. And then Roland
goes, which is why it works. Oh, shoot. And had
to just get rid of it. Yeah. Now I have painted
myself into a corner of using time travel. Which
is why how it should have ended is so funny of
Snape just turning it 8 ,730 ,000 times to go
back and kill Voldemort when he's meeting with
Dumbledore. Yeah. Anyways. Moving to the what
category. What extra material exists about Maul
outside of the prequel trilogy? We will include
Clone Wars in that section. And what does that
material do to shape our understanding of who
Maul is? Garrett, is there... I don't remember
much Maul stuff in the old EU. It's not a lot.
There is a little bit. It's not a lot. So Maul,
as with so many prequel characters, doesn't get
a whole lot of EU content because the transition...
from Lucasfilm to Disney happens relatively shortly
after their introduction as characters. So there's
not a whole lot. He does make appearances in
the book Plagueis. Oh, yeah. He does make an
appearance in Cloak of Deception. He does make
an appearance in Darth Maul Saboteur, which is
like a short story. There's Darth Maul Shadowhunter.
There are a couple of these books, but... It's
like, how would I say this? It's like Maul as
a character is much less fleshed out in the old
EU than he is in the Clone Wars show. He's much
less vocal. He's more of a like brooding passive
assassin, silent assassin. He is definitely like
the methodical patient. character that we see
in portions of the Clone Wars where he's like
setting up the takeover of Mandalore or like
later on in in the lead up to Solo, you know,
he goes through the whole syndicate arc. But
in these books, he is portrayed very much as
like a patient, methodical assassin operating
sort of in the underworld a little bit. He like
has these run ins with these syndicates like
Black Sun and tears them apart. But. It's not
a very fleshed -out character. The Legends novels
portray Maul as competent and disciplined and
ideologically committed to Darth Sidious' teachings,
but he doesn't crack open as a character and
have introspective moments the way that the canon
does. And by the canon, I'm including Clone Wars
in this, even though the beginning of Clone Wars
is technically the Lucasfilm era. It is part
of canon. The most interesting material from
the old EU is probably in Darth Plagueis, especially
they treat him as like a philosophical object
where like it's a question about identity and
autonomy. But Maul doesn't engage with those
questions himself. It is like the reader. in
sort of a third -person perspective is engaging
with these ideas. But Maul is still just this
sort of automaton of Sidious, which is not the
same depth of character that we get in canon.
Right, right. Speaking of canon, there are two
comic runs that I think should be on everybody's
list if you're really excited about the Maul
show and want some extra knowledge about what's
going on with him. So there's... The first sort
of comic run that's Son of Dathomir, that is
about what happens in between when Plagueis kills
Savage Opress and captures Maul and how Maul
escapes and what he does by the time Ahsoka runs
into him in Clone Wars Season 7. So it's an explanation
of like, wait, you were just... captured and
now you're back on mandalore like what happened
so that that runs really good it happened in
2014 it's it's a solid run and if you want to
see more mandalorian armors that are in that
black and red death emirian sort of outlining
that is the artwork for you and then there's
a more recent run which is uh darth maul black
white and red which is the prequel series that
i was mentioning where it's him sort of working
with darcidious there's some really cool sithy
things that happen in there so if you like the
sith world and want to know more about the dark
side without becoming an evil person that is
the comic book run for you as well uh like i
said it is not the path to the dark side itself
it's not it's just the knowledge of the dark
side so i suppose in this case i'm the star wars
version of eve holding out an apple It's a red
and black owl full with horns. It's really good,
though. So the how category. How does this extra
material change our perspective of the character?
How does it inform the way we consume the material?
We know him from now. I will say, first and foremost,
there's all of this debate around whose idea
it was to bring Maul back. Now, Filoni has been
quoted. saying that it was Lucas's idea. There's
been reporting that it was Filoni's idea. I will
say, I think the fact that the old EU doesn't
really go into this, into Maul so much, shows
to me that this is more a drive by the Clone
Wars team than it is by Lucas himself initially.
That's my speculation. Yeah, it is speculation
because we're never really going to know unless
there's a big interview with the Clone Wars team.
I will say, in terms of what does this extra
content bring to the character, I would say that
Legends Maul sets up the aesthetic of what Maul
is supposed to be. It's up this cool aesthetic
of this of this character who is like ruthless
and calculating and efficient, but he's a lesser
character. Canon takes the bones of what legends
established established and build something that
is far more of a human character out of out of
that base material. Yeah, I think in terms of
extra material. Being anything except for Phantom,
it really just fleshes out this character that
we wanted to know more about. He was cut short
after one movie. We thought he was going to be
so important to the whole plot. Quite literally
cut short. Exactly. Quite literally. And this
changes really everything because he goes from
just this iconic visual of... What he looks like
himself, we hadn't seen anybody who looked quite
like him. And the double -bladed lightsaber,
which in itself is iconic. But other than that,
he was fairly one -dimensional throughout his
first appearance. And them bringing him back
in Clone Wars and then Rebels and Solo, all of
those things, as well as any additional... comics
and books, et cetera, that we've been getting,
that really just turns him into this complex
character who might not be as complex as others
because he is very much focused in the dark side,
which has a limited palette of emotions, I will
say. But even through that, we see his intellectual
genius. We see still his physical power and fighting
ability and his revenge story, which is most
of his plot, but also the cunning that it takes
to actually get him there. And we get more of
where he came from, which is not necessarily
part of his story, but we still get that through
Ventress and Savage and that whole subplot where
we can see a little bit more of what his background
probably was like before Sidious picked him up.
And then we just get additional information about
this character that we were all so excited about.
And I think that it's just fascinating to see
him really be fleshed out. And it's a big reason
why I'm so excited about the new show. Yeah,
I think the new show is one of the more... interested
i've been in a in a concept before it comes out
like i was interested in the acolyte i was super
interested in the mandalorian that might be the
only thing that that went above it because i
was just i just love mandalorian stuff so much
but maul because he's been so fleshed out especially
towards the end of clone wars and then we've
given a little hint as to what he's up to in
between Clone Wars and then where he comes in
in Rebels with Solo, I just am fascinated by
his mind. He is a seductive personality. That's,
I think, the main thing that makes him so cool
in Rebels in particular when he runs into the
main Jedi character, Ezra, is he is this seductive
idea. And he brings the seduction of the dark
side in with the luring of what he's talking
about. Even for a second, Ahsoka is like, huh.
She was almost in. Just watching that, sitting
there going, is she really going to say yes right
now? I know. Because it's so close. And the only
thing that really brings her out is just her
trust of Anakin, which unfortunately is completely
misplaced in this instance. And so it's almost
like the one thing that saves her from teaming
up with Darth Maul. Which, side story, would
have been very interesting. So cool. Please,
I need an alternate universe where that happens.
I have a massive amount of money on the fact
that Ahsoka is going to show up in the Maul series
at some point. I am sure she will. And that's
a joke, I don't gamble, but I really think she'll
show up. I think that she will, for sure. But
it is just, it is very interesting because he
is... So seductive in his portrayal of, well,
yes, I mean, this might be the dark side, but
also look at all these facts. And also look at
kind of the situation at hand. And I'm telling
you the truth about everything, which he is again,
which is wild. It's so funny because Darth Sidious
is the one with the most power. He's the one
that convinces Anakin. And he's like the least
convincing Sith Lord ever. Yeah. He's like, be
evil. And Anakin's like, I guess I gotta. And
everyone else, like Dooku is like, the problem
with the Jedi is Yoda. And here are all these
different other problems. And I, it's interesting
because Dooku represents white collar Sith while
Maul is representing blue collar Sith. And both
of them are much better at it than, than all
powerful. What a characterization. Is that not
accurate? I mean, that is, that is a very interesting
take. I can't argue with it. You can't, and I'll
tell you why. Dooku is the richest person in
the galaxy when he takes over, when he leaves
the Jedi Order and goes back to his family. He
becomes the richest person in the galaxy. That's
why he has those exquisite pajamas that I will
mention every time I can for Dooku. But he then
has all of these, like... You know, I've been
in governance and I know all of this. And he
like acts like he's some sort of banker or lawyer,
even like a crypto dude. Right. He comes across
as sort of all of those different versions of
why I'm giving you these reasons as to why the
Republic is bad versus mall is like, do you hear
the people sing? at the bottom here and that's
why he's so able to ingratiate himself with the
people who are fighting against the type of order
that dooku wants so he they're just they're two
sides of the same coin it really does feel like
white collar blue collar sith that's great that's
great love that take the last thing i'll say
about this is all of if we're counting just phantom
menace as his like main thing all of this is
additive and i don't think With the exception
of me, every time I think of Maul, I will also
think of the Black Knight from Monty Python going,
it's only a flesh wound. Like, the fact that
I do have to think about that every time I think
of Maul is a big downside. But everything else
has been so additive. And the coolest bit of
lore, I think, is that he was both the conqueror
of Mandalore and also per one of their traditions.
Was also the rightful rule of Mandalore because
he holds the dark saber. Yeah. I think that's
super legit. That's super cool. It is very interesting.
Here's my heart. My hot take. The dark saber
is not cool. You almost made me spit. Garrett.
You can shut up with that. You can, you, all
right. We are, look, I'm going to put out an
advertisement right now. We are looking for a
new expert. Not to say that a black lightsaber
isn't a cool idea. I'm just saying the way that
they did it as a flat blade is silly. Oh, you
visually don't like the way it looks. Yeah, yeah.
Not its importance to Mandalorian culture, not
what it does in the Mandalorian. No, no, no,
no, no, no. Oh, okay. No, no, no, no. Never mind.
We're taking that out of the classifieds. We
don't need another expert. Yeah, I'm with you
on it is a funky -looking thing. It's not a cool
lightsaber. You are an actual science person.
Tell me why this wouldn't work. Well, it's not
that it wouldn't work. It's just that, like,
you now have an edged weapon. That you're fighting
against what is essentially a baton in all of
the other lightsabers. It's just... I've never
heard lightsabers described. The lightsaber is...
It's a light baton saber. It's actually not even
a saber. It's a light stick. It's a baseball
bat. I mean, it's a baseball bat. Anyone who
has played The Force Unleashed knows that it's
just a baseball bat. That... That is a great
take. That is an excellent take. That's so funny.
Yeah, it is a baseball bat. You're right. A baseball
bat that can slice instantly. I don't like the
edged blade, and I also think the hilt is...
I'm all for the understated hilt every now and
again. I don't think the hilt is very cool either.
Okay. That I will agree. I don't know that I
like the hilt that much. I don't mind the outline
at all, especially in the Mandalorian show live
action. I think they do a more interesting job
with the way that it sounds. Sure. And the power
that they give the feeling to it physically.
Yeah. It does not feel that heavy or burdensome
when Maul's holding it and fighting with it.
Yeah. It's just aesthetic problems I have with
it. That's all. That's fine. Starting in with
the Darksaber's not cool was a hot way to tell
us that you didn't like the way it looked. Sorry,
I didn't, I don't know, it just didn't occur
to me that there would be anything else connected
to that. Okay. So, the where category, part one.
Where does Maul fit in the fandom of Star Wars,
and where does he fit in rank of importance?
Now, for this question, I have to assume that
we are including the Clone Wars. as part of this
question. Yes. Maul is, I would say, not a critical
character, but he's a very important character.
His influence on galactic events, subtly, you
know, underground, is pretty significant. And
if you add on top of that the level of fan appreciation
that he has as a character, there's no question
to me that he's like, in the top portion of important
characters. Now, is he, you know, Luke Hanleah
important? Obi -Wan important? Anakin important?
Certainly not. But he's not a pure side character.
So I was writing out my thoughts on this and
kind of half changed them partway through because
I initially started out thinking in terms of
importance to the overall plot. of Star Wars
as a whole. I was under the impression that he's
fairly low on the totem pole. Yes. Is he doing
interesting things? Yes. However, because Clone
Wars doesn't directly impact the other kind of
sets of trilogies that we see. There's not a
whole lot of a through line of what he's doing.
However, as I was writing that, I was going,
well, the one exception is that he kills Qui
-Gon. I was just about to say. Which creates
the butterfly effect of... Literally took the
words out of my mouth, Sierra. Yes. Obi -Wan
having to train Anakin, which you one could argue,
and I think we kind of have, that... That is
a big reason why Anakin becomes Darth Vader is
because he is trained by someone who is not holding
him accountable the way that Qui -Gon would have.
Yeah, totally. And so by changing that dynamic,
he actually impacts a great deal of the overall
plot. Of Star Wars as a whole. We don't have
Star Wars without Darth Maul. I mean, if we're
talking about Star Wars as a whole, he creates
a whole in Qui -Gon that creates the whole of
Star Wars. Like, he is immensely impactful for
that one moment. Shut up. The only thing, though,
that does bump him back down is that it doesn't
have to be him. Right. Other people could have
fit that role and taken Qui -Gon out of the equation
for the same situation to line up. He's not someone
like a Yoda where there is one of him and he
has a, to use a Liam Neeson, particular set of
skills with which he needs to affect this one
plot point. I would put him kind of firmly in
the middle in terms of importance to the overall
plot of Star Wars. Now, importance to fandom,
importance to just fan experience, then I would
start ranking him a lot higher. Because for a
whole generation, he's kind of the first iconic
character that a lot of people got. If they hadn't
seen this, you know, if they saw the prequels
first. Yeah. If they were too young maybe to
have seen the original trilogy before the prequels
came out. Right, right. He was a lot of people's
introduction. Yeah. To what Sith are. I will
say this. Gare and I will get to this point a
lot more when we talk about Anakin. But there's
a whole generation. Of kids who appreciate, you
know, the Anakins, the the Darth Mauls, the Dooku's.
And I think Maul represents a lot to kids of
like to Gen Z and Gen Alpha of like, this is
a guy willing to fight the system. He should
be celebrated for that, even though he's going
about it the wrong way. And so I think he's a
lot more important to generations below ours
in the millennials than I. I think a lot of people
realize Darth Maul, among students of mine, is
like S tier for them. He's like one of the most
important characters in all of Star Wars. People
who grew up on Rebels or on Clone Wars are like,
this guy, why isn't he in the rest of it? Why
does his fate end up the way it does in Rebels?
They have so many questions about why he's gone,
because they like him better than they like Luke.
or Han, or Leia. Like, they just, he's so important
to younger generations. And again, there's this
idea of, like, they've grown up in an era, especially
Americans, right? They've grown up in an era
where everyone's talking about how bad the system
is and it needs to change, and that they just
want people who change the system. And he represents
somebody who's willing to change the system at
all costs, which, for whatever reason, is much
greater appreciated in younger generations. And
this is all, this is the Clone Wars doing. The
only reason that we're having this discussion
at all is because of the Clone Wars and by extension,
Rebels. Yeah, totally. The where category part
two. Where? Where does Star Wars take Maul now?
To the moon! Take her to the moon! I did not
expect you to say that. No, Sierra, you have
an actual different thing that you wrote in here.
I did. I did. And it's the real answer, which
is Mall Shadow Lord. Yes, which came out today.
On the day that this is coming into your ear
balls for the first time. So hopefully you have
a lot of mall content to get through. Yeah, the
Mall Shadow Lord, which is this awesome bit of
in between. Clone Wars and A New Hope, where
we're learning a lot more about, as Sam Witwick
says, we're learning about how Maul feels about
Palpatine, how he feels about the Jedi, how he
feels about the Republic falling, how he feels
about the Empire being here. And as Garrett said,
he's a passionate character. Everything that
surrounds Maul is around his emotions. So the
fact that we are having what is essentially an
emotional dive into Maul, I could not be more
excited for. Very excited. I am completely stoked
for everything that we're going to get. Obviously,
at the time of recording, we have not yet seen
it. The only things that we know is the hints
and the interviews that we've been getting and
the little teasers and all of that. And every
piece of content that comes out just makes me
more and more excited, especially with Learning
how he is surviving in this post -Republic, now
Empire world. Because at the end of Clone Wars,
he says he's got a plan. He has a plan because
he knows what's happening. He knows what's coming.
He has set himself up to, as I wrote down, because
Maul knows what is coming. He knows Palpatine's
plan. He has been informed of everything that
this is all leading up to. And he says, I survived
and I can thrive in the chaos that is to come.
But we are getting hints from Sam Witwer that
perhaps this chaos is not exactly what he was
expecting. It's a little bit, maybe more than
he bargained for, or perhaps he didn't get to
fully enact. this plan to set himself up for
success ahead of time. Maybe Ahsoka is the cause
of the issues that he's having now because she
showed up instead of Obi -Wan. We're not entirely
sure where this is starting out, but it's going
to be very interesting to dive in to this character
now, knowing his plotting and knowing all of
the ingenuity that he can already put forth in
such a short amount of time and to really see
what he's made out of this situation. So it's
going to be very interesting. So in addition
to the mall shadow Lord stuff, there's this rumor
of this live action underworld TV show that Lucas
pitched and it didn't come to fruition in back
in the aughts. It was supposed to be this more,
more adult, more dramatic, more gritty thing.
And now, apparently, that is back in the works
to a couple of different sources. So usually
when you get two or three sources reporting on
the same thing, it's fair to say that that's
at least been talked about. It may not still
happen, but hopefully it's actually in production.
And I will say, if that's the case, I hope, first
and foremost, that we're getting a lot of Kira
Maul content. So I would love for Emilia Clarke.
to be the head of this or one of the heads of
this. And that sort of a physical combination
of Sam Witwer and Ray Park to create a dynamic
duo with Emilia Clarke. I think that show, which
now exists in my head canon, would be fascinating.
That would be fantastic. Yeah. I would love kind
of any of that underworld content because we've
gotten so many little bits and teasers about
it throughout. just Star Wars in general, that
really diving into what that all means and how
that all functions in a world with and without
Jedi would be fascinating. Yeah. I'm all for
fleshing out the universe. Yeah. Garrett's the
biggest proponent. Garrett's the biggest proponent
of like, don't touch main characters, do side
characters and old or super futuristic stories
only. Yeah. I don't, I don't want to have any
more Luke stories to go a thousand years forward
or a thousand years backward. Don't go anywhere
near where we've been. Just like, just move on,
move away. So there's, there's so much other
things you could do. And now I, I know this isn't
necessarily mall, but end of Rogue One, were
you okay with the Vader scene and, and juxtaposition
that with end of Mando season two, were you okay
with the Luke scene? Yeah. Yeah. They were both
great. Okay. So it's okay to do that, but just
not main stories. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not saying
that you can't have the characters involved at
all, but like there seems to be this desire of
like, we have to stick to the Skywalker saga.
Like, no, no, the Skywalker saga. We've been
there. We've done that. It's a nice little package.
Let's just leave it where it is. It's also other
people's stories. It's also kind of over. There's
no bloodline of Skywalker left. Well, I mean,
that's true. But as the sequel trilogy was coming
out, there was a part of me that was like, how
about we leave it alone and go do something else?
Oh, man. If we ever get to do sequel era on this
podcast, I'm not sure your friends will survive.
Awesome. Well, we're all looking forward to Maul.
Hopefully we're not cutting this out for social
medias and then me giving a disappointed face
and being like, it sucked! Gosh, I hope. I don't
think it will. I don't think it will either,
but who knows. I don't think there's a way. The
writers have been great and they love this character
and it just feels like it's really ready for
gloriousness because of that. Yes. So. Today's
public service announcement is a message from
the Galactic Senate Bureau of Public Safety.
Citizens of the Republic! Every year, thousands
of beings are injured or killed in preventable
lightsaber -related incidents. Not by Jedi, not
by Sith, but by you. A lightsaber is not a tool.
It is not a walking stick. It is not something
to show your friends at a party on Coruscant.
It is a weapon that can cut through blast doors,
repulsor tanks, and the hull of a Venator -class
star destroyer. If you find a lightsaber. Do
not activate it. Do not hand it to a child. Do
not attempt to just see what it feels like. Seventeen
beings on Nar Shaddaa last cycle lost fingers
in this way. One considerably lost more. The
Force is not required to activate a lightsaber.
Common sense, however, is. If you discover an
unattended lightsaber, contact your local Jedi
Chapter, Republic Garrison, or law enforcement
immediately. This message is brought to you by
the Galactic Senate Bureau of Public Safety,
the Coruscant Emergency Medical Corps, and the
families of those who just wanted to try it.
And on that note, thank you very much, Garrett,
for joining us here today to discuss double -bladed
lightsaber man, Darth Maul. Double -bladed lightsaber
man. lightsaberman oh gary that was always excellent
to have you on thank you so much for coming on
bud it's always nice yeah not a problem and thank
you dear listener schmissners for listening to
this episode of Fandom Shmandom if you'd like
to discuss this episode or any other episode
we've done please hit us up on our social media
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It really helps the algorithm place us in front
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With that, we're out, y 'all. Don't forget to
tip your double -bladed lightsaberman. And fare
thee well. Fandom Schmandom was created by Sam
Williams and Sierra Obermark. The show is produced
by Aurelia Lieb. The editor is Brittany Fisher.
The music is by Jeremiah Alves. No, that's the
great part. He accidentally left his earring
in and that's why Maul canonically has an ear
piercing. Clone Wars is special when they're...
I'm so sorry. That was so aggressive. I'm so
sorry. Snuck up on me. Anyways, I feel like because
of the camera angle, I feel like I've been sneezed
on. So I'm like trying to wipe my face. We're
like 600 miles apart. So never mind. Yes. Hold
on. Okay. I'm making sure I'm caught up. It lagged
for a second. So I just got. Okay. That's why
I wasn't responding. There was a moment. There
was a moment indeed. Very well said, Sierra.
We all liked it. We just didn't hear it until
three seconds after you said it. So I know that
could feel like harrowing with an audience, even
as small as this one. You say something and then
it's just... Well, I thought something was wrong
because you were like intently staring. And I
was like... Did everything crash? Well, because
it made this like noise in my headphones. So
I was like, oh man. Is Sierra okay? Or did St.
Louis just get set on fire? It is useless to
resist. Come with me, my son. We will rule the
world. Search your feelings. It is true. So you
have found a twin sister that... Garrett's just
like, I am ignoring Sam as much as possible.
Export audio.