Welcome to Fandom Shmandom, the fandom podcast
that covers everything you love and more. I'm
Sierra Obermark. And I am back. Your illustrious
host, Sam Williams. I don't have a giant ego
at all. And didn't need a dramatic. But we are
back. We are back. We are done with season one.
Stranger Things is dead and gone, and I never
want to hear about it again. Conformity gate,
never going to happen. But you know what will
always be with us, Sierra? What's that? In our
hearts is Star Wars. Yes. Don't sue us, please.
John Williams, don't sue. Anyways, so that's
parody. I'm not worried about John Williams.
There's some other suing happy people out there.
That's so true. John Williams probably personally
doesn't care. Disney, we love you. Don't sue
us. Today's episode, we will be bitingly blithering
about Star Wars Clone Wars, seasons four through
most of seven. What I mean by that is this. There
is a show coming out in April. of 2026, if you
happen to be listening to this episode in 2035,
called Maul. It's an animated series. And this
particular Clone Wars episode, we're focusing
a little bit more on the Maul aspect. So anything
to do with the Jedi Order, with Order 66 and
Sidious' plan, and Maul himself. What that means
is that we're not covering so much Anakin, Padme,
Obi -Wan, Ahsoka. It's really sort of a bit to
do with clone troopers because of Order 66. A
lot to do with sort of the superfluous Jedi stuff
on the side. A bit of Yodas and Dagobah. And
then Maul, Ventress, Oppress. All of that shenanigans.
So that you guys feel a little bit more prepared
for Maul. Will we get to all the other stuff
in Clone Wars? Absolutely, but in the specific
character episodes. We've got one coming out
for Ahsoka, Padme, Obi -Wan, and Anakin. So don't
worry, we're going to get to all of that information
in the coming weeks. Well, folks, we officially
have a Patreon. There will be a lot more added
on there in the coming year, but for now, if
you'd like to listen to our show ad -free...
And slash or before anyone else, you special
lucky baby duckies, you can pay 500 pennies a
month and support this little show. You can do
that by heading to patreon .com slash cw slash
fandom shmandum. And without further ado, we
will, as Roger Smith says, dive on in. Find your
donut holes. It's time for our Knives Out category,
where we sleuth out which storylines in this
whole stinkin' show are the most vital to pay
attention to, given our current focus. Indeed.
We have the arc of the Jedi Krell. Boo. You have
feelings? I have many feelings. You know them
to be true? Do know them to be true. You don't
agree with me, I'm concerned for you. Because
he sucks. He's really quite egotistical, filled
with hubris. Yes. Has no idea what he's doing.
Has no sense of Jedi -ness to him. Is completely
unempathetic. Is all about winning the war. To
me, he's emblematic of what's wrong with the
Jedi, but he is not the main reason why they're
terrible. No. He is exactly what the Council
has allowed to happen. They focused on this war,
which is totally against the nature of Jedi,
which is to be a part of the light side and to
help the Force be in balance by being the protectors
and guardians of the light. And instead, they've
just sent out all their Jedi thin, like, what's
the Bilbo quote there? Like, too much butter
spread over too little bread or something of
that nature. They're just completely all over
the galaxy, pretty much in solo or in pairs at
times. And they're not able to help each other
to refocus on what matters to the Force, to themselves,
to their code, and... They're just like generals.
Here we go. My main strategy is to go and kill
this other person, which seems so outside of
what the Jedi Order is supposed to be. Well,
and I also feel like, especially in this case,
there's nobody to hold him accountable. Because
at least with some of these other Jedi, there's
some sort of oversight. But because of the situation
where Anakin gets called away, and... Master
Krell has to step in to be in this position.
And all of these clones are used to more of a
camaraderie with their generals. Being able to
actually communicate and have ideas and having
a general who thinks of them as people and soldiers,
but people, not essentially human versions of
droids. Because that's how Master Krell is viewing
all of them, is just as expendable. as something
that is just meant to go send out there and no
big deal if they all die oh well I have to take
this base and that's what I'm going to do and
if you all die not just so be it but good because
you're not worth it and that's when you see the
twist of Krell going from you guys are expendable
and that's okay to You guys are expendable and
I'm happy about it. Yeah. That is when I literally
sit there just cringing and pulling at my face
and just so angry for so long because he is so
horrible. And the clones have no recourse. No
recourse. They have no one to turn to. They have
no one to... really go to. And I even put what
I was watching and I was putting in my notes
and I was going, report him, report him right
now. Now is your moment. And it's, it's really
rough because you get also the idea from the
clones. Rex and Fives have this conversation
where Rex says, we are soldiers. We have a duty
to follow orders. And if we must lay down our
lives for victory. Fives questions that. Do you
believe that? Or is it what you were engineered
to think? To which Rex responds, I honor my code.
That's what I believe. Which I think is very
interesting, both from a soldiers following orders,
but also having to respect their own personal
code. But then also a call to do what we'll see
in a little bit with Order 66. literal code being
programmed? And is that what you're engineered
to think? Kind of like an insinuation that there
are some things that they actually don't have
control over as much as we want to think of them
as individual people, because that's how the
show does such a fantastic job of portraying
them. Yeah, and Dee Bradley Baker's voice acting
for all the different clones and bringing them
to life on the show is phenomenal. And I feel
like if we're picking an MVP of this season,
it's Dee Bradley Baker specifically. Not necessarily
any character, but his ability to voice so many
different clones with so many different personalities
and so many different intonations is just phenomenal.
I will say this. There's a lot of interesting
things to be said about the clones and this arc
and then the next arc that we're doing on Tup
says them effectively, which is like these are
grown beings meant for a war, but they come with
all the feelings, all of the passions of a human
being. of Jango Fett's code. And you can see
all the different variations that Jango could
have had and Boba could have had, had they, had
he pursued some different life. You know, we
run into clones on this show that are, you know,
living with a family. And something that they
don't really touch upon too much in this show,
which I find fascinating and unethical. I mean,
I find the whole process of a clone army unethical
at the end of this initial first watch, right?
Because this show makes you ask the questions
of like, is this right? Did they do the right
thing by making a clone army? No, they didn't,
is the answer. You should not manufacture human
beings with real emotions. uh in order to and
they even suppress the gene in jango that makes
him rambunctious right but ultimately i think
one of the big questions that we should all have
is like why is no one going to war crimes for
shortening their lifespan they get half the amount
of time That a normal human would be. And this
isn't quite like, okay, well, Yoda species gets
to live for 900 years, but humans are only 100.
This is like, they are around their compatriots.
Humans are one of the biggest races in this galaxy.
And they are actively aware that, first of all,
they may be killed within 13 years of being created.
Right. But also, even if they did live, they
can only get to 50 at best? Which... We will,
although you have not yet seen this. We will
all see what old clone troopers look like in
Rebels. Mm -hmm. And I think that's also something
that's mimicked in another quote from one of
the clones. I can't remember exactly who says
it, if it's Fives or who, but someday this war
is going to end. And then what? We're soldiers.
What happens to us then? And I think that that's...
twofold here because not only are they soldiers
and that's all they know and that's all they
were made for and one day the war is going to
end and now what are they supposed to do they
just are let go into the world are they going
to be exterminated they don't know and they don't
necessarily know if they even have a purpose
outside of whatever this war is and even if they
did will they live long enough to see it yeah
And so it's very interesting, and it also is
reflected definitely in reality. Yeah. I think
this is when Star Wars is at its best, to me,
is when it's commenting on current or universal
politics. The bringing down of democratic institutions
to create a dictator is something that has happened
in history. I'm sure it will be attempted more.
hopefully is never successful, but most likely
at some point will be successful. And you can
see the signs in this prequel trilogy, right?
We'll talk a lot about it in our Revenge of the
Sith movie. But in this particular moment, they're
commenting very bravely, I feel, especially for
2012 -ish time is when seasons four, five, six
are coming out. about our very poor care of veterans
today, right? There's a lot that can be done
for veterans and very little and funding that
continues to get pulled within Congress. And
this question of what's going to happen to us
then is a question that so many soldiers, so
many people in the armed forces can ask. And
instead of helping them out like we should, we
often are like, all right, cool. Thanks for your
service. Bye. And I mean, of course, there are
great charities out there. There's the VA, which
is very helpful for medical stuff. And so it's
not like we do nothing, but we can always do
more. And I think that this show is really, really
good in making that question hit and hit hard.
And I also, you know, kind of going back to Krell.
And his role in all of this and his engineering
of just the horrible practice of he engineers
this whole clone on clone fight, which is genius
in a horrible manner. He tells each group of
clones that the other has been overrun and the
enemy is using their armor and they're on this
planet that is dark and dingy and difficult to
see. It's already a chaotic situation. And then
they realize they're fighting each other. And
when finally caught, Krell says that he's no
longer naive enough to be a Jedi. Very Dooku
-coded. Exactly. It's very Dooku -coded. And
that as part of the New World Order, he will
rule as part of it. And I think that's... I think
that is naive because he says he's no longer
naive enough to be a Jedi. You know, there's
all this other stuff out there and there's better
that he can have. And it's all very materialistic
that he doesn't have to follow this kind of code
of ethics anymore. And he can go and do what
he wants and be part of this new world order
that he will be part of the ruling class of it,
which if he actually knew anything about. this
new world order, he would know he's not getting
anywhere near a ruling position. So he's very
naive in saying that he's not naive anymore.
He's the worst sort of person to be around. Because
it's too stupid to realize how stupid he is.
And that's so difficult to deal with when those
people are in powerful positions. Because you're
like, oh man, I can't say anything against this.
And you're going to be able to boss me around.
But man, are you going to get me and yourself
in trouble. You just don't know it. Right. So
rewatching Clone Wars this time around has made
me like sort of full stop, no apologies, agree
with Luke Skywalker in Rise of Skywalker. Or
not Rise of Skywalker, in Last Jedi. Luke says
very famously in that movie, it's time for the
Jedi to end. And I very much agree that the way
that the Jedi were, and he says this part to
Rey. He says at the height of their powers, they
let, you know, Emperor Palpatine take over. And
destroy them from within. It's time for that
version of the Jedi to end. The version where
Krell is in charge. Think that he's going to
be one of the next rulers. And casually toss
his life away. The one where Mace and Yoda and
Ki -Ada -Mundi and Plo Koon can't figure out
who the heck the Chancellor. That the Chancellor
literally right in front of them is the Sith
Lord. Who enables Anakin to... like remove himself
from the Jedi path and become this powerful force
for evil, that Jedi order, the hubris and the
lack of direction towards the light side, absolutely
should stop. So I don't disagree with that. I
disagree with the messaging that Luke has, where
it's like, it's time for the Jedi to end. Wait,
wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. That
version of the Jedi, absolutely. Luke, I am in
total agreement with you, but not the whole Jedi
order. No. He's being a little exaggerative.
But he's Luke. He's been dramatic his whole life.
Exactly. We'll get to him eventually. One day,
we'll have a conversation about Luke Skywalker
and his whiny attitude. But he does make a good
half point of. There is this whole section and
basically there was a golden age of Jedi where
things actually ran as they should, but they
were forced into this situation where they needed
to fight a war that they were not prepared to
fight. Jedi were not meant to fight a war. They
were not meant to be generals. They were not
meant to do all of this. They're supposed to
be peacekeepers. And that's something that we
see throughout Clone Wars. individual Jedi warring
with that within themselves within each other
you know Obi is very much on the side of no we're
supposed to be peacekeepers and then you get
Satine on the very far side of that going well
a peacekeeper isn't even going to fight period
why are you fighting and then you also get Anakin
on the other side going we're not doing enough
so we actually have to squash The only way that
we keep peace is by murdering them completely
and also get rid of all the red tape. And that's
definitely not the definition of fascism. No,
definitely not. But it's what he's known. Yeah.
So it's a difficult situation for all of them
involved. And it unfortunately just causes the
Jedi Order, as it should be running, to completely
crumble. Absolutely. So during the Krell arc.
we actually start getting a little bit of hints
on the next big mystery, which is, as I like
to call it, the Tup arc, because we are introduced
to Tup within the Krell arc, and now he has his
own arc, which is essentially how the Jedi almost
discovered Order 66 and completely forgot to
follow up on it. So, the big mystery begins,
and it just kills you because... you know they
don't figure it out because Order 66 happens.
So Order 66 is shown to be this programmed thing
in all of the clones. It's not some sort of training.
It's not them following orders blindly. It is
something that is implanted in them and they
have no choice in the matter. We have thoughts
on this, but I'm going to keep going and we'll
circle back. Tup is a clone who, during a battle,
turns on a Jedi. He has some sort of a malfunction
or a virus, they potentially think, that has
caused him to turn on one of his Jedi generals
and kill her. This sparks an entire investigation
into why this has happened. He's brought back
to Kamino. Shaak Ti, who is one of the Jedi in
charge of the clones on Kamino, blindly trusts
the Kaminoans' explanation of what is going on.
That it's some sort of virus, and this is a one
-off situation, it'll never happen again, and
we better exterminate him, lest he give the virus
to everyone else, especially Fives, who... Was
with him, therefore he probably is infected as
well. We wouldn't want the Jedi all killed by
clones, would we now? Yes, we would not want
anything like that. Don't spread your virus.
Exactly. So Fives is going, there's something
else going on here. He's not dying of some sort
of virus. There's no virus. I'm not infected
in a, in, I'm not infected by anything. Tup isn't
infected by anything. There is something wrong
in his brain. And Shakti is just going, no, that
can't possibly be it because the Kaminoans said
no. And then this continues because Yoda is completely
trusting as well. Yeah. And is just going, oh,
well, this is exactly how we have to do it. And
this is all the procedure that we have to follow.
And we'll just do that. Meanwhile, Fives is having
to conduct his investigation into what has gone
on with Tup. He figures it out. He finds the
chip. And then again, the Kaminoans are going,
oh, well, this is what that chip's for. It's
no big deal. And then they just believe them
again. And it just kills me because then we also
bounce back to Palpatine, who is... As good as
wringing his hands together, cackling maniacally,
and yet no one's picking up on it. He tells his
whole plan to Fives. He does. He tells him everything.
And nobody thinks to look twice. And we love
Fives, and we don't want him in danger, but Tup
and Fives basically are, like, sacrificed for
this plot that never truly comes to fruition.
Because... It can't because this is part of the
plot of the prequel trilogy and we can't give
it away now. And so the whole thing is just working
up to, well, what's going to happen? Well, I
know what's going to happen. This isn't nothing.
And it's just, it's so frustrating because we
know there's a chip. We know it's implanted.
We know that the clones were created in conjunction
with Dooku's instructions. Right, they find that
out. They find out Dooku is the one who instructed
this. Exactly. And then they just aren't going
to double back on that ever. Listen, there's
a whole thing with Yoda's thing as well, where
it's like, wait, you guys had literally all the
pieces. Also, Obi -Wan, and Dooku says this to
Obi -Wan, Dooku's like, I told you everything
you needed to know back on Geonosis. Yeah, you
kind of did. And Obi -Wan is just - No, he dies!
Obi -Wan's just too led by the Jedi Council to
have anything happen. It's so frustrating. Okay,
so let's wheel it back for a second. So right
at the beginning of this, the main thing that
we find out is that Order 66 is programmed. It
is a chip - implanted into the brains of clones
that will physically force them, unless they
remove the chip, which will come up later, it
physically forces them to obey the order to kill
all Jedi. I, as I posted on TikTok several weeks
ago, it was today. But you don't know that. I
hate this. And I feel very similarly about this
as I do Maul returning, which is, I hate this,
but what they do with it, I think is good. Do
I wish it happened in the first place? No. Am
I glad about the outcome? Sure. But I think that
ultimately George Lucas is not a big fan of the
U .S. military industrial complex. I think he
supports troops like any... good -hearted individual
where he's like individual people yes i support
them but i don't support the means and methods
of politics to remove freedoms from people around
the globe one of the things and that's very clear
in a new hope right that is a that is a parallel
between the vietcong and the u .s military industrial
complex of the vietnam war which he was bigly
against and wrote a a movie during the end of
that war that became star wars i hate this because
I think that this takes away from the punchiness
of the initial message of Revenge of the Sith,
which is when you condition soldiers to follow
orders without question, they become a tool for
great evil if given into the wrong hands. So
that conditioning soldiers without a morality
to just blindly follow orders is not a good idea.
It's essentially the main message of the Order
66 moment. And that initial meaning and messaging
is lost when you input this. Now, I understand
why Filoni does it. He spends six seasons building
up these wonderful relationships with Cody and
Rex and Fives and the loyalty that they have
with Obi and Anakin and the camaraderie that
they have with each other. And by doing so, they
create a plot hole. I've seen a lot of online
discourse that people are like, yeah, there was
this plot hole and they fix it. The plot hole
is created by this show. Right. And then they
fix it. Which, okay, great. That's fine. I understand
why you'd want to do that. And also, obviously,
the U .S. military, those who are Star Wars fans,
really love the clones. And I think it would
have been really hard to swallow that pill after
this show. Just being like, no, they're just
following orders. But I do loathe to lose that
initial messaging. So, I have different opinions
on this. Mainly because... When I watched Revenge
of the Sith before having seen Clone Wars, I
already had that idea in my head of this must
have been something programmed. So I never was
of the kind of mindset that they're just so highly
trained to follow orders that they will follow
any order. And I think where that really comes
in for me is the immediacy with which all of
the clones turn. So there's no hesitation in
any of them. There's no moment of, is that really
the order that just came through? There's no
anything. So in my mind, when watching, it was
clear to me, which clearly it shouldn't have
been because that was not the initial plot point.
To me, it came across that, yes, these engineered
individuals were programmed with this kind of
secret hidden directive. Maybe I've seen too
many robot movies, whatever the case may be.
But there's a secret hidden directive going on
that even the clones themselves don't know about.
And so when they're given the order, it immediately
triggers that thing. So that they have to respond.
And so whether that was a brainwashing thing
or an actual physical chip that was implanted,
like they say in Clone Wars, I hadn't fully processed
whatever that was. But there was some sort of
a programming that caused this to happen. And
it was not just highly trained. So I want to
be clear here. And we are parsing hairs a little
bit here. I do think that. soldier conditioning
and there is like psychological academic literature
about like how close what we do in the military
uh and brainwashing are in terms of the training
that happens and some would some would argue
that some of the conditioning that happens with
soldiers especially at higher levels is brainwashing
i'm not one of them but i i do want to be clear
that i do think the clones are brainwashed into
following order 66 but i think that that the
brainwashing part of it rather than the actual
physical limiter is where i it loses the messaging
for me i like cody is chumming it up with obi
-wan and then he's like order 66 boom i'm gonna
kill you i think that that's clear clearly brainwashing
and i think that that is an illusion a more dramatic
illusion but an illusion to uh how lucas feels
about what we do in the military I just think
that as soon as you make it physical, where it
is a chip in the brain, I do think that that
takes away the courage of that initial messaging
by sort of having a cop out with, well, they
were forced to, instead of being like, no, they've
been so highly conditioned, engineered into this.
And that difference between it being psychological
versus physical is where that I get unhappy.
Yeah. I mean, you said, you know, we're kind
of parsing. For me, at that level, it's the same
thing. There might as well be an actual physical
chip in there if you are so conditioned to one
specific, you know, as I said, like, hidden directive,
basically. Because if you have those, it's like
sleeper agents, essentially. So, you know, you
hear the code word. And immediately all of the
training kicks in and all of the whatever you're
supposed to do or whatever that is. And I feel
that on that level, it almost doesn't matter.
There's no real difference from a – I get that
the messaging is slightly different. Yeah. But
in terms of the actual plot and the characters
and everything, I feel like from their standpoint
within the world, it's essentially the same.
I don't disagree with that. I think the impact
on the screen is essentially the same, whether
there's a chip in their brain or whether or not
they've been conditioned. But the problem that
I'm having is that I'm discussing the overall
real world thematic messaging of this movie,
which this moment is so powerful to me because
it is a commentary on when soldiers follow orders.
And that's sort of where it's lost by putting
the chip in the brain. Gotcha. That makes sense.
Well, we get this wrapped up in kind of this
really heartbreaking quote by Tup, and I believe
Fives as well, kind of mimics it at the same
time. The mission, the nightmare, they're finally
over. And it's very interesting because this
is a nightmare to them. The mission that they
do not want to complete. Yeah. To kill. The Jedi.
Yeah. And this nightmare of being forced to fight
those that they care about and that they have
grown to respect and cherish. And it's finally
over. But then also the mission of this war,
the mission that they've been set to for their
entire lives, the nightmare of war, the nightmare
of having to constantly live in fear and fight.
It's finally all over. Yeah. Which is the only
way out that 99 % of the clones get. So upsetting.
I love the clones so much. So then we move to
Maul. Maul returns in this selection of seasons.
So this all starts off with Dooku being... kind
of voluntold by Palpatine, go kill your little
side project there. And he's like, I don't, I
have a mistress, not an apprentice. And he's
like, no, no, you have an apprentice. That's
way worse. And he's like, ah, okay. So Dooga
goes and sets this trap up for Ventress. She
falls to the trap, but she is not killed. And
so she flees back to the only place that she
kind of maybe has ever known, Dathomir, which
is the home of one Darth Maul. At one point.
So the Dathomirians are set up in a... The Dathomites,
the Dathomons, the Dathomades. I don't know what
their names are. They are set up in a matriarchal
society. They're the Nightsisters, which are
this... Maybe Force users? It's kind of unclear.
In the old canon, they were Force users. In this
new canon, it's a bit of hocus -pocus. A bit
of wibbly -wobbly magical stuff in the science
fiction world. Anyways, they're a matriarchal
society. So she goes back, Ventress does, meets
the Nightsisters, and eventually picks up her
own apprentice to get revenge on Dooku. Because
apparently that's all Sith can do is get revenge.
We get to meet Savage Opress, who is, you didn't
guess it, Maul's brother. Because that is the
thing that they've decided to tell us about.
Ventress trains up Oppress. They go after Dooku,
who's in exquisite pajamas when they attack.
One of the best skins on Battlefront 2. And what
happens is Oppress eventually leaves Ventress.
Because he finds out his brother, Maul, is still
alive. Now, this was controversial at the time.
This is less controversial today. But I will
say what I said for Order 66 change. I hate...
That this happened. And I love what they did
with it. Yes. The reason why I hate what's happened
is the same reason why I hate any of the did
they, did they die, did they not die stuff in
Avengers MCU world. Because in Avengers the MCU,
death at one point just didn't matter. It was
like, oh no, actually this character did leave.
What was the guy from Avengers that got stabbed
by Loki in the heart? And then he actually lived
and he was on Agents of Shields for like seven
seasons. But they use his death as the catalyst
to bring them all together. It was. Yeah, exactly.
It was just. And then death suddenly didn't matter.
And then they made a whole movie about how death
didn't matter because everybody dies at the end
and then they come back. Spoilers for Avengers,
which came out like 10 years ago at this point.
Death in Star Wars matters. And did. It mattered
for a long, long time. Obi -Wan dies, and he
actually dies. There's still a Force ghost, so
we can still talk to him, but he's dead. He cannot
physically come and do things, although Rise
of Skywalker has Yoda control some lightning,
and that's very confusing. But Obi -Wan dies,
and then Darth Vader dies, and Palpatine dies,
and Maul dies, and Qui -Gon dies, and people...
Die. And they stay dead. Even though there's
some metaphysical discussion. But that doesn't
bother me. It's Maul died. He was gone. And then
they brought him back. Now this is a Lucas idea.
And I still have giant qualms with it. Because
it just starts to be like. Okay. So then who
else survived? Oh Palpatine it turns out. And
that's where I get. Somehow. I get really. Well.
And I'll say this very quickly. There is, in
old Legends stuff, there are some really good
stories about Palpatine attempting to bring back
clones of himself. But it's a whole story dedicated
to that. So Rise of Skywalker's ending is like
a finale to a movie series that they didn't actually
create. And now they're trying to explain it
away. You'll see when you watch The Mandalorian
and stuff. There are bits and pieces as to how
cloning is going on and what they need midichlorian
blood for, etc., etc. But this idea of death
not mattering is a killer, in my opinion, to
big franchises. And so when I seriously was out
on Clone Wars when they brought back Maul, I
didn't watch anymore until six years later. That's
so funny. I had an maybe not opposite reaction,
but I do agree. I think that in a series, if
you're not going to have death mean anything,
there's no stakes. And it really lowers any fight
that I watch now in some big franchise. I just
go, well, everybody's going to be fine. you know
even if it looks like they're gonna die it's
fine they'll come back it's like there's no real
stakes anymore well and then there are big questions
around when characters don't like do stay dead
it's like but but like why yeah oh is the contract
reasons and then it starts to be a real life
and it's just a big i'm sorry yeah yeah yeah
i'm sorry bet solo is dead because there's legitimate
reasons that he could come back but we're not
gonna get into those Did you know that Uncle
Owen and Aunt Beru are still alive? Well, I think
what it really leads to is like, did we see a
body? But then even then, there's ways to explain
it away. So yes, I do have an issue with that.
However, if they're going to bring back a character,
I do like that they chose someone who is not
vital enough to the plot. Yeah. To really impact
things or change things or rewrite or to pull
a Palpatine. They pulled someone back who can
really operate in the shadows, who was interesting,
who we didn't get really enough backstory on
in general. We didn't know enough about him.
Now we get to see more about who he is, where
he came from, what his family situation growing
up, all of those things were like. And I think
that that's interesting because it's almost like
they brought him back to world build, which I
can appreciate. They didn't bring him back to
change the plot. So yes, I agree with you. I
didn't hate that they brought him back. I was
disappointed that they brought back someone who
should have been dead. Because then it's like,
okay, well, if you get chopped in half and you
fall down a shaft, then you're still going to
be alive. So, like, where's Mace? But... Where
is Mace? Because they did this, I'm the biggest
proponent of Mace should be alive. Mace is alive.
Because we actually saw Maul chopped in half
and falling down. Like, we did see a body. With
Mace, all we saw was him get hands chopped and
then electrocuted out a window. Right. You see
the force... Does the force still not work with
your little nubbins? I'm pretty sure it does.
No, but Sam, you need to use two hands. Two hands.
Well done. So what I'm saying is that we've got
two things out there from Wednesday walking around
with Force powers. Good. I love it. Good, good,
good. Love it. But I do agree. What they did
with Maul, amazing. Super dope. And also, I'm
like... I don't know that I necessarily need
a second Han Solo movie, but the fact that Maul
is in charge of Crimson Dawn and is like this
puppeteer of the underworld. I want more Emilia
Clarke, Ray Parker with Sam's voice. I can't
remember his last name. Whitmer. Thank you. I
want that in film. I want more of that. That
sounds cool. That sounds very cool. I love that
now. After everything that's happened, we are
getting three dimensional Ventress. Yeah. She
has morals, shady morals, but she has some. She
knows what is right to her and she acts on it.
And unlike all the other Sith and everybody out
there, she isn't purely driven by hate or revenge.
And while she kind of hate love hates Obi -Wan
and they have their teta tets and everything.
She teams up with him to fight Savage and Maul.
Because Maul is just hellbent on his revenge
with Obi -Wan. And this fight is so good. Yes.
But this fight is so good. It is. It's an excellent
fight. Four very distinct styles that you get
to see. And it's in such close quarters. Fascinating
to watch. Also, because this fight is so good,
and Ventress and Obi -Wan do not defeat Savage
and Maul, it really bothers me then that Kenobi
then goes to fight Maul again, and again brings
one Jedi to go fight Maul and Savage, when he
and Ventress, who he knows is a very good fighter
and force user, even though she's not. you know,
a Jedi or anything. He knows she's really good.
And yet he brings just, again, one Jedi with
him. I will say the advanced analytics on Ventress's
abilities are quite low. She is the Russell Westbrook
of like volume shooting scoring, but not particularly
effective. She has not yet once gotten the job
done. And so I think that, I think that Obi -Wan
not winning. Again, small and oppressed. He's
looking over his side -eyeing Ventress being
like weak link. All right. I just got to bring
like, I don't know who's available. You, you
random Jedi. Let's go. Come on. Anything's better
than Ventress. But also anything is not better
than Ventress because at least Ventress made
it out alive. Yeah, that's so true. Oh man. Yeah.
I enjoy getting three. three -dimensional ventress.
That is good. And getting a lot more about Dathomir.
They've clearly done a good job of trying to
set that up. Maul very quickly gathers forces
when his brother joins him and helps him get
out of his sanity and no longer has spider robot
legs, just has regular bionic legs. He recruits
pirates. He starts getting people in the underworld.
And before you know it, he has found out some
information that leads him to take over mandalore
what is this information you think well there's
a group on mandalore called death watch there
are these old school mandals that don't like
satine the duchess of mandalore who is like the
most extreme pacifist who likes satine said ruler
of mandalore obi will be longing for satine and
you know who hates obi Maul. So the enemy of
my enemy's governor lover friend person thing
is my friend in this case. Yes, definitely very
big enemy of my enemy vibes from Maul here. Just
taking anybody he can get at this point. However,
his plot. Super good. To take over Mandalore.
Genius. Yeah, really good. Absolutely genius.
He pits every person. so perfectly against each
other in a way that will get him at first, well,
I mean, essentially, shadow ruling over Mandalore.
And nobody's any the wiser. Until... Until Maul
lures Obi -Wan Kenobi into a trap and Admiral
Ackbar isn't there to tell him, so nobody knows.
He's still Captain Ackbar, so... It only happens
with the alliteration. Once the alliteration
kicks in, his mind does that, like, meme with
the advanced math. So, a lot of this trap is
not very cool. It leads to some pretty heinous
stuff. But what it does lead to is Obi -Wan Kenobi
wearing, like... Maul kind of makes the Mandalorians
put on his... skin tones he's like you will all
be black and red now you will all cosplay as
me in your mandalorian armor um which is dope
but also not so dope but it's really dope when
obi -wan has to wear it so obi gets to dress
up in this mandalorian worshiping darth maul
armor which is super cool yeah so that is super
cool and then what is Super cool, but also cracks
me up, is that the Death Watch uses what I dub
the droid deployment system to drop in in their
fighting. The droid deployment system is when
these shuttles, essentially, of droids show up.
And they're all strapped in kind of under their
armpits of what a robot's armpit would be. And
then they just drop them all down. You know,
they start marching out and they're already in
line and everything. So the Death Watch essentially
use the exact same thing and just, like, deploy.
And when I watch that, I just go, the droid deployment
system. I learned it from watching you. Maul
lures Obi -Wan because he has Satine as bait,
essentially. Maul also has the Darksaber, which
he took from pre -Vizsla. Not post -Vizlo, though.
That's a stupid joke, and I love you for it.
So he uses this dark saber on Satine. He stabs
her straight in the same place that he stabbed
Qui -Gon, which I think is an awesome little
shout -out to Phantom Menace. Looks him in the
eyes. Satine dies. Or she falls on the ground.
Obi -Wan goes to her. She's like, I've always
loved you. And basically says everything but,
we have a child. Because you can't say that in
front of Maul and cue Rey's initial lineage.
And then that got all messed up. But Obi -Wan
is able to escape all of this, but he doesn't
manage to kill Maul or oppress. And he escapes
with Satine's sister, Bo -Katan. Just remember
that for the future, missionaries, because Bo
-Katan will be a major character in a couple
of different TV shows. You know who does come
and kill oppress? Palpatine. Because like a shark
in the water with blood, he goes, oh, there's
some dark side people that have become a problem,
and just like, drives to Mandalore? Okay, I'm
sorry. I'm just saying, Palp, you fly officially
as Emperor Palpatine, as Chancellor Palpatine,
officially flying to Mandalore. You challenge
someone who's operating absolutely nowhere near
anything that you're doing. You already know
you can defeat him. It just seems like such a
huge risk for something so small and unimportant,
like in his big scheme of things. And it just,
Sith are so bonkers. You have become a rival.
Kills the press. Right. Yeah, you're the rival.
Sure. Sure. Apprentice of the apprentice of the
apprentice is your rival. This is the definition
of a phantom apprentice. He is not a threat.
He's a ghost. Not at all. Yes. And it bothers
me because I really weirdly like Savage a lot
as a character. You're a big sucker for a guy
who goes, hello. No, I'm just, I'm a big sucker
for like. A character who's, like, constantly
challenged and, like, has - he just has such
a rough life. Yeah, he does. Like, it's not great.
Then he ends up having to, like, kill his brother
in order to, like, prove himself to Ventress.
But then he ends up ditching Ventress, but then
Maul doesn't really treat him like a brother,
even though he should. It's, you know, you're
my apprentice, you're not my brother. Yeah, he
almost crushes his skull. Right, and it's just
- He tries so hard and he was trying really hard
to be Dooku's apprentice, but then he, you know,
does the whole betrayal with Ventress, but then
Ventress doesn't really want him either. It's
like, he cannot win. But him and Maul's interactions
are very interesting to me. So I think that that's
really why. And I think Maul is so fascinating.
And so by proxy. Savage is very interesting.
So I think it's really cool what they do with
Maul in this whole little arc with both the press
and him being the ruler and him also like big
brothering a press the whole time as well. This
will come into play in Rebels. You see a lot
of this side of sort of like big brother energy
from Maul with a certain other character. And
it is that and his like actual pretty good scheming.
I think of the two main takeaways. If you're
like prepping for Maul the show, there's some
really good character things to take away from
this. He can be weirdly charming. He's incredibly
smart. He can be really tempting to the characters
around him. And he's conniving as anybody. And
I think that that makes him really this awesome
phantom in the shadows in the background. And
also his voice acting is incredible. So there's
that. That's also very true. A huge factor. But
we leave Maul before we get to our Order 66 time.
On Mandalore, just defeated by Palpatine, left
alive, but his brother's dead. Now we're going
to get to all of our Order 66 dealios. Right
after we do our Revenge of the Sith episode.
So we're going to talk about all the congruent
information. So what's going on with Ahsoka and
Obi -Wan and Maul and Rex and such. During Order
66, right after we actually cover Revenge of
the Sith. So be on the lookout for that mini
episode. We are going to talk about Mandalore.
We're going to talk about the amazing scene between
Ahsoka and Maul. We're going to talk about the
incredible fight between them. Check us out in
two episodes, y 'all. Two episodes. Lastly, we've
got Yoda, which is a wildly incredible, important
storyline that I feel like gets slept on a lot.
Yeah, we get these kind of last three episodes
just tossed in at the end of season six. Which,
by the way, is the season that Disney was like,
we bought the merger. And they were like, no
more. And so this is how the show ended. Right.
So this is how everything ended. And it's very
important and also confusing to me. Super confusing.
As a person who, you know, when watching this,
had not fully dived deep into, okay, what does
everybody know and what does everybody not know?
And when you're coming from having seen the original
movies. Force ghosts are real. Right. And so
you kind of just take them as a fact. And so
then going back to this and Yoda saying, this
can't be possible. You're dead. I'm going, really?
To Qui -Gon specifically. Qui -Gon has appeared.
Yeah. Yes. You're dead, Qui -Gon. How can you
possibly be here? This doesn't make any sense.
This is impossible. And I'm just going, considering
that. Of the people involved in the plot of this
whole Force ghost situation, three of them become
Force ghosts. Obi -Wan. Obi -Wan. Yoda. Yoda.
And Anakin. And Anakin. All become Force ghosts.
And Anakin does it in, like, two seconds. It
takes Anakin. Like, Obi -Wan doesn't physically
appear until, like... Three years after the Battle
of Yavin. Right. Like, Anakin is like, hey, I
died six seconds ago. Force God let me go to
heaven, even though I killed a bunch of kids.
And now here I am. I'm good, guys. All good.
So it's yeah, it's just wild because we go from
nobody thinks that this is real or possible or
even in the realm of credibility to. All of these
people becoming forest ghosts. This is the third.
Within like five years. Yeah, exactly. Three
years. This is the third thing. No, because it's
like 25 years. No, it's longer than that. Yeah,
it's 25 years. Okay, within three movies. Within
three movies, yes. This is the third thing that
I hate about the show that I still like what
they did with it. So this idea that Yoda's been
around for 800 plus years. So in all of that
time, no one's become a force ghost. Ridiculous.
Qui -Gon's the, like, highest thinker who essentially
ascended first. Like, he's Wizard Jesus. No.
He's Wizard Space Jesus. I love Qui -Gon. No.
No. Like, he is absolutely doing a really cool
job of being, like, hey, force first type of
dude. Right. But the only person in 800 years
look as good you will not, Qui -Gon? Like...
I can't stand that this just kind of happens
to be when Force Ghost becomes a thing. That's
what Clone Wars does. It establishes this just
happens to be when this occurs. At the end of
Revenge of the Sith, when Obi -Wan comes in...
And Yoda's like, much training you have to do.
And that's a terrible Yoda voice. But when he
says that, and he's like, oh, I can talk to Master
Qui -Gon. That's cool. I'm like, oh, Yoda's teaching
him an old technique that he hasn't learned yet.
Because he's still fairly young for a Jedi. Here
we go. This will be cool. Not, we are giving
you the path to immortality right now, Yoda.
This is great. So the big point of this arc is
Yoda goes to Dagobah because... Qui -Gon tells
him to go there. And he is learning the path
to immortality about being a Force ghost, right?
That's what's getting him there, which is not
a thing that's happened yet. But also, during
that time, he sees a bunch of different stuff,
including little baby Shadow Yoda. Yeah, very
Gollum -coded. Also, he brings R2. Okay, and
then tells him to stay with the ship. R2 doesn't
like staying with the ship, you guys. Stop making
him stay with the ship. He doesn't not like it
yet. I know it hasn't happened yet, but he's
already uncomfortable. You can tell. Yes, that's
true. I don't know about this. It's bizarre.
It's bizarre. Anyways, the big piece of information
that I have here that I think we glean out of
this is that Yoda is clued into the entire Order
66. He sees the Jedi fighting the clone troopers.
He sees Sidious, and he sees that Sidious' chin
is the exact same as Chancellor Palpatine. Eye
roll. He sees the attack from the Chancellor
on other Jedis. Now, he doesn't know where the
setting is, but that is in the Chancellor's chamber.
He sees that specific attack. He sees this little
twirl move that opens it up. And he sees that
Anakin is at the center of all of this. That
Sidious wants Anakin. So he knows all of this
is coming. And he can sense it because he knows
the war is coming to an end soon. He says that
to Mason Obi -Wan. What does he do with this
information? Nothing. Ditto -ly squat. So, like,
he didn't kill the younglings that Anakin killed.
But he is good as. Like, he is really culpable.
He shows up. After learning all this information.
And Mace and Obi -Wan come over and they're like,
saw anything cool happen? And he looks at them
dead in the face and goes, nah. He does start
to focus on the Force a lot more, which is, I'm
like, oh, cool, we're getting back to that. But
it drives him into being this weird, grumpy old
man that doesn't want to train anybody and just
wants to ascend. He becomes the most selfish
Jedi on the planet. It's very silly. It bothers
me a lot. Yoda, I mean, we've talked before about
Yoda's blindsidedness when it comes to a lot
of things. And it continues here. And I think
that this is just yet another example of you've
been given all this very important information.
And I guess the only reason that I can excuse
it is that... Perhaps it's kind of like a prophecy
situation where if you try to stop it from happening,
it'll make it happen. Right. And that's something
that he's maybe concerned about. But the fact
that he doesn't even like take any extra precautions
or keep an extra close eye on Anakin or anything.
He doesn't. Oh, remember how that one clone trooper
killed that one Jedi? Maybe we should revisit
that. Oh, who was involved in that? Palpatine?
Who did I see under that cloak? Someone that
looked an awful lot like Palpatine, especially
when he was going, I got the chip. How do you
guys not know that Palpatine is the Sith Lord
at this point? Okay, I'm sorry. It bothers me
so much. Palpatine is so powerful. That he can
force choke you through hologram from billions
of miles away. And yet Yoda can't sense the dark
side pouring out of his every pore and orifice
while standing five feet in front of him. No.
In Legends, this is one of my favorite little
factoids. In Legends, when Palpatine is training,
I think it's... lord tyrannus uh when he's trading
dooku but it might have been um maul i'm not
really sure which one they like go to the the
steps of the jedi temple and and the narration
of the apprentice is like master says that as
long as we don't get in we won't be discovered
and i'm like you guys just ripped that off from
the legends of the christian church like where
sinners burst into flame as soon as they enter
the church like What? Oh my gosh. They're like
vampires who can't enter a hollow ground or something.
It's just silliness. This whole thing of, yeah,
hey, Mace, you can't see where the fog's coming
from because you're in the fog. Like, you're
just in it. Yeah. You don't know where it's coming
from. He's the dark side in the room with us.
Yeah, exactly. You just are in, basically, Palpatine
all the time. You're just surrounded by his aura.
It's... Surrounded by Palpatine's aura. That's
like a song title. Yeah, for real. Good band
name, I call it. There you go. New band name,
I call it. So he's... The one message that Yoda
does come back with is he says he's no longer
certain the war can be won. That there's been
too much death, too much destruction, too much
loss. The Jedi essentially have lost their ways,
the subtext there. And Mace specifically kind
of looks pissed about this. Obi -Wan looks contemplative.
And Mace is kind of like, what the heck have
we been doing all this for then? And then he's
like, I think it's kind of cheap that Yoda's
like, eh, war. Let's just focus on the force
and immortality. You started this! You're the
one who went and got the clones of Kamino and
came and rescued Obi -Wan and Anakin and Batman.
Mm -hmm. Like, maybe finish. And then he's like,
when he's on Kashyyyk and Order 66 starts, he's
like, oh my god, it's happening. When Doodoo
says the problem with the Jedi is Yoda, I'm like,
yeah. He's not wrong. He's not wrong. He's not
wrong. Well, we've gone over so much that we
are skipping many different categories today
because we wanted to get all of this information
to you, but we could not but help. To keep our
favorite little category in here. Sierra? Keep
your horses safe. Keep them safe! It's the...
I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse.
Category for best lines. Some of these are gonna
come out of nowhere because they are lines from
things that we did not cover in this episode,
but they're too great not to share. So, it begins.
Grievous says, How does it feel to die? And a
Gungan general replies, Not die. Sacrifice. That's
pretty good. I like that one a lot. This one
cracks me up. That's Cad Bane. How do you know?
Who else would wear a hat like that? I do love
that arc. Obi's little arc is so good. It is
very, very good. A very fitting Anakin line.
How many other lies have I been told by the council?
Many, Anakin. It turns out actually a lot. Turns
out, again, you're not wrong. Anakin to Palpatine
says, as long as I live, no harm will ever come
to you, your excellency. Great bit of irony there.
Good job, Clone Wars writers. Hey, can we just
make him say the opposite of what happens? Yes,
we can. It turns out. Yes. As it turns out. Fan
favorite and Sam favorite, Hondo Onaka. I may
be a pirate, but I do not like taking children
into battle. Which is not his accent at all,
but I'm standing by it. It's close. All right,
thanks. I appreciate it. This lovely line comes
from Whack, A -Droid, and D -Squad. I would die
for D -Squad. Wow, they really went overboard
with the welcoming committee. Guys, sometimes
I just put in lines because they make me laugh.
And I am going to make myself laugh, even if
nobody else appreciates it. Savage's dying words.
I am an unworthy apprentice. I am not like you.
Never was. The irony in those words when he's
like, but my master doesn't like me so much that
he came and killed you. Like, I'm the most unworthy
of apprentices. What are you talking about? Yes.
Very impactful. There are going to be Jedi who
disappoint us, Ahsoka. But as long as we know
there are good Jedi who fight for what's right,
it makes it worthwhile. Cue shortly after Imperial
March theme. I understand. This is Anakin to
Ahsoka when she's contemplating leaving the Jedi
Order. He says, I understand more than you realize.
I understand wanting to walk away from the Order,
which is real hard. It's real hard. There's another
one similar to that where he alludes to the fact
that he understands that things aren't the best
and that. He kind of wants to leave and she says
she knows. And I'm like, please elaborate. You
guys talk to each other. You guys are so close.
Disobeying the council your expertise is. That
is why I ask for your help. It is the spontaneity
you find so easily, which others do not. That
is what sets you apart. Yoda to Anakin when he's
asking Anakin to help sequester him from the
planet so he can go off on his journey. But I
think it's one of the only good things that Yoda
says to Anakin. Says to Anakin ever. It's the
closest he comes to a compliment. Yeah. That
your expertise is not listening to us. And I'm
going to ask you to do that. Yeah. Flash forward
to Anakin, like, stabbing children and killing
them. But sure. Yeah. And BD. This is a Maul
line. It's when he's got Satine in prison and
Obi -Wan is being marched up to him. Your noble
flaw is a weakness shared by you and your duchess.
And then he just starts force choking Satine.
It's a really crazy power play. I could quote
Maul all day. All day. He has so many - I was
hoping for Kenobi. What are you doing here? Anyways,
love Maul. Fantastic. Today is public service
announcement. Follow up, follow up for the love
of goodness. If there is a plot afoot, please,
please keep looking into it. As you continue
to get hints about it, just, you know, put someone
on it. One person. Just one person on it. One
guy. It's only one more than you've done, which
is nothing. You can spare one guy. Please. One.
One person. This is kind of a big deal. If this
is real. Guys. Even if it's just Watto. Like,
you went and got Watto off of Tatooine. Like,
just let him look at the brain chip. You know
what? Who should be in charge of this is D -Squad.
I think it should be R2. Okay. But he's part
of D -Squad. Kind of. Oh, the Droid Squad. Of
course he is. Yes. I had a brain fart. Sorry.
Excuse me. Yes. D -Squad should absolutely be
part of this. God, I love D -Squad. D -Squad
should be looking into Order 66 situation. I
take it back. Who's the MVP of this entire Clone
Wars show? It's D -Squad. It's D -Squad. It's
D -Bradley Baker and D -Squad. The Ds. Yes. Yes.
Well, if we're doing that and you're adding in
D -Bradley Baker, we might have to add in David
Tennant. I mean... That's true. The triple Ds.
Although he doesn't have much. But he did...
But he won an Emmy for what he did. He won an
Emmy. That's huge. Well, thank you, dear listeners
for hanging in with us and listening to this
episode of Fandom Shmandom. If you'd like to
discuss this episode or any other episode we've
done, please hit us up on our social media channels.
You can find us on TikTok and Instagram at Fandom
Shmandom Pod. And you can also continue to our
Patreon. which we mentioned afore, that is just
now up, and that is patreon.com/cw/
fandomshmandom. Please don't forget to rate
and review us if you liked the episode. It really
helps the algorithm place us in front of other
like -minded shmissioners out there. And with
that, we're out, y 'all. Don't forget to tip
your apprentices. And fare thee well. Fandom
Schmandom was created by Sam Williams and Sierra
Obermark. The show is produced by Aurelia Lieb.
The editor is Brittany Fisher. The music is by
Jeremiah Alves. Today's - nope, I said today's.
Here we go. Today's episode we will be - nope.
How now, brown cow? Let me practice my linguistics
for this moment. Seashells by the seashells of
the seashore. That's not how you say that rhyme
at all. It's good. Here we go. Thing that happens
during these - Say arc. Say arc, nothing. Yeah.
Okay. Give me a second. My phone is dying. Oh,
no. Oh, no, Sierra. I have to change up my whole
camera situation. Oh, no. That's not good. Oh,
no. Oh, God. There's a place called... There's
a place. There's a place I know. They want to
go back to the old Mandalorian warring ways.
Who's in their way? The Duchess, the ruler of
Mandalore, Satine. Do you know who really likes
Satine? Obi... What's my joke here? Oh, yeah.
No one's going to get this because nobody remembers
Lake Wobegon from NPR back in the day. On Satine.
Stabs her right where he stabbed Obi -Wan Kenobi,
which is an awesome little shout -out to the
franchise there. He stabs her right in the gut.
In the exact same place. Qui -Gon. everything
in my life right now i also have a joke you should
definitely say he takes it from pre -vizsla because
i'm gonna make a joke what's his name pre -vizsla
pre pre -vizsla pre -vizsla okay let me let me
restart this sorry uh brit this has been a very
put us in oh yeah we're getting back into our
rhythm here really it's been two months i think
since we've recorded yeah forget to rate us not
please don't if you liked the episode Is it really?
Nope. That's it. I'm done. I can't do it. You
went Elmo. I did. I really did. Well, that'll
be an excellent blooper. You're welcome.