Welcome to Fandom Shmandom, the fandom podcast
that covers everything you love and more. I'm
Sierra Obermark. And I'm Sam Williams. Today's
episode, we will be ordinarily orating about
Stranger Things Season 5, Episode 8. Spoiler
warning, we will be talking about everything
to do with Stranger Things. That includes all
four previous seasons, the play, and now all.
of season five. Keep your finger on the pause
button and rewind that tape. It's the prestige
category. What did we notice on this watch through?
Well, Sierra, this is a tale of two episodes
in one. We had one section, which I'm calling
the final fight and the other section, the. 45
minute long epilogue in a quick sort of summary
of how i felt about these two episodes i loved
the epilogue and i didn't like the final fight
fair uh the potential of what they set up in
for the four seasons but also i i think digging
a hole kind of in the media Of just like, we're
going to answer all your questions. You guys
are going to be, you know, desolate. It's going
to be super sad. Everything's going to be emotional
and everything of that nature. We just didn't
reach that level of craziness. You know, sort
of telling your audience, analyze everything.
Well, I think a lot of fan theories ended up
being more crazy. I won't say more creative or
anything of that nature, but more crazy. And
in -depth. And really focusing on those details
that they told us to focus on. Right. Totally.
And so by the end of that, like, the first hour
of the show, I was underwhelmed. And then I was
like, oh, good. This epilogue's perfect for this
TV show. Like, it's not perfect in terms of writing.
Nothing really is. But I was like, this is a
great send -off for the last 40 minutes of an
epilogue. That was my overall reaction. What
about you? I mostly agree. I don't know that
I loved the epilogue. I wasn't mad about it.
There was just, in general, a letdown for me
both in that final fight section and then also
with the epilogue. It just felt a little lackluster.
It could have been that my experience of watching
the epilogue was slightly soured by the fact
that it didn't feel earned based on the first
half of the episode. So the first half of the
episode kind of left me with this lackluster
kind of, okay, feeling. And so by the time we
get to the epilogue, I'm going, oh, so they're
just going to wrap everything up. and give everybody
a nice little bow and here's what they're doing.
And kind of one of those, almost a throwback
to, well, 80s movies with, and then he became
the president and then he became a criminal.
Oh, and then he went on to build a baseball team.
Yeah. And it just felt a little like, what's
this person up to? Check. What's this person
up to? Check. Yeah. I, I, as you know, was traveling
during New Year's, and so I ended up watching
this in three distinct parts. I watched all the
way up through Vecna fight and killing Vecna,
and then I paused right when Dustin is telling
Hopper, we've got the kids, we're back. Everyone's
good. Then I had to pause. So I didn't know what
happened to Elle and Dr. K. Although I will say,
what I texted you as my prediction was eerily
close. pretty pretty pretty close pretty right
on i mean obviously at that point i had abandoned
all hope of dr k might be good uh clearly super
wrong on that not triumphant whatsoever but and
then i watched that section which is about 10
minutes and then i watched all the epilogue uh
when i got home so i had a couple of days to
sit with just the final fight which may explain
why the epilogue sits a lot better with me Because
I watched that entirely separately. It was almost
as if these were two distinct episodes. Which
I'm like, the epilogue does a nice job of sort
of tying everything in a bow. Now, I really like
when they go through with each of the characters.
Less so with the doobs, as we call them, the
older teens. More so with the scoobs and more
so with Hopper and Joyce. But I still really
like that. It's very reminiscent of Parks and
Rec's finale, series finale. Where Leslie Knope
goes through to each person and when she touches
them, it shows the future of what they're doing.
Which I think is one of the most perfect finales
I've ever seen. Versus the first half, the fight,
definitely felt more like Lost or Game of Thrones.
Where I just kind of felt there being like, I
feel hollow. Like everything that I feel like
this could have been is just really not there.
With the exception of some small twists that
we'll talk about as we move forward. Yeah, I
think that that might have had a determining
factor is your gap between the two. Because I
can see that if I had had space to sit with the
first part, then the second part might feel a
little bit lighter and a little bit better because
it's not coming right off of, oh, well, that
didn't go how I thought it was going to go. And
then now all of a sudden, here we are trying
to wrap everything up, but I don't feel wrapped
up from what I just watched. So I think that
was my biggest issue. I think that's really fair.
I think the epilogue did a nice job of wrapping
up all five seasons, but the finale did a bad
job of wrapping up season five. I would agree.
Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. I
think that, oh, hey, there's a lot of talk about
like, well. I will admit, Sierra, I grow very
tired of online discourse of many things in life,
specifically because there's just the polarizing
effect of being online, the polarizing effect
of not having media literacy or storytelling
literacy or understanding of subtext or any of
this sort of stuff that in general, what you
and I run into on a daily discourse online, we
see. So there's just a lot of polarizing around
like, this is the best finale ever. This is the
worst thing ever. It's definitely not the worst.
Right. So I genuinely believe that. I subscribe
to the idea that Game of Thrones finale was bad.
I subscribe to the idea that Lost's finale was
bad. This isn't anywhere close to that. This
also, I happen to love the Sopranos finale, and
I love Parks and Rec finale. This isn't anywhere
close to that. And it's okay to be like, yeah,
so there was some good and some bad on this,
and we'll go over both. So let's just move in
straight into it. The final fight. I found this
section plain and straightforward. It was, yes,
it was quite boring considering everything that
we've gone through to get here. And okay, we
finally reached Dimension X and here's this new
place that we didn't know existed until two episodes
ago. Now this is where the kids are being kept
and we're going to have to go to this whole fight.
And we spend two minutes in Dimension X before
this, where Holly's just running away. And then
we have no real time to sit in this new world
to have any knowledge about it or any additional
information. We spend so much time in the upside
down. And then it's like. Haha, but that wasn't
really the other dimension at all. It's this
one. And then you go, okay, so tell me more about
this one. And then they go, no. I think one of
the main things that's my problem with this section.
Which is really the conclusion of the big mystery.
The story. Right, the story. Every time that
you and I have been like, so why is this part
important other than the fact that it's the main
story? This is the main story. And it wraps up
Barb and Bob and Billy and Betty and Brenner
and everybody, right? It wraps up all of their
deaths. It wraps up the mystery. And a caveat
here, it is really easy to set up a... a convincing
mystery as compared to finishing a convincing
mystery. Like, you can throw a lot of things
in there that throws people for a loop while
you're building a mystery. But to finalize it
is really difficult. And so I like, give that
caveat, because I understand that this is a difficult
task that they set up for themselves. The problem
is that they've given so many twists and turns,
and there's been so many theories about what's
going on or what's happening, that To be this
plain and straightforward where it's like, yep,
go for Vecna, kill Mind Flayer, body, there's
nothing else happening. As compared to everything,
this sort of conspiracy that's been built up
in this show. That's what's lackluster to me.
That's where I go, eh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, it's
very much, there's, you know, one kind of moment
where you fear for people's lives, but... But
overall, I wasn't afraid for any of them. Including
Steve. In that whole fight. Well, the one moment
was the tower. When Jonathan catches him. My
heart did stop for a hot second. I was like,
no, they're not going to. No, no, no. See, I
was so convinced that they weren't going to that
my heart did not. I was like, they're not going
to kill him off like this. Well, but the way
that they have it and then they kind of have
the break. And you're going. Wait, but no, they
wouldn't kill Steve. But at the same time, there
was just enough space where you're like, no one
can grab him. See, I was more concerned for Nancy
when she turns her head away from the mouth of
the Mind Flayer than I was for Steve during that.
It just felt like that would be such an inauthentic
and... not satisfying way for steve to go oh
this the tower the tower crashes into the upcoming
whole planet that's falling on them and steve
falls off of it and i that that just never registered
to me as like this is realistic and so i at no
point was i really afraid for anybody's death
well yeah i mean and after that one moment where
i was like no they're not gonna do it it and
then they didn't i was There didn't feel like
there was stakes, really. Like, they're fighting
this thing, but you go, okay, but, like, at this
point, they're all fighting it. It feels very
much like the Mind Flayer fight from the mall.
So that is my point. It's like a repeat. That
is my point, precisely. It's end of season three
meets end of season four meets season five mid
-season finale. Because you've got. Yeah. L and
Vecna facing off just like you do at the end
of season four, except this time it's in a physical
location. You've got the entire mall fight of
season three, where instead of being up on a
second floor of a mall, they're just up on some
cliffs. Yeah. And then you've got Will hive minding
in to like he did at the end of season five finale.
Yeah. For a second to like break an arm off and
talk to Vecna for a minute. But like, When they're
in Dimension X, my wife, the scientist, went,
how do they know they're going to breathe air?
How do we know that fire works there? That it's
the same level of oxygen? Shouldn't it be really
cold? Because he likes it cold. Yeah. Also, why
is there so much sun when the sun burns away
the mind flare? It's very Star Trek. They show
up on a planet and they're like, look, it's an
M -class planet. And that just means to the audience
that... oxygen levels are fine and the radiation
levels are fine and everything like i'm glad
that they didn't fast forward and just like everybody
dies of cancer at the age of 30 but like what
why is this dimension so convenient yeah i the
only thing that i can think of with how do they
know that they're going to be able to breathe
and how do they know that fireworks. I mean,
I guess if you can breathe the air, then fire
is going to work because both require oxygen.
So the only reason you would know that is because
that's where Vecna and kids are currently. Therefore,
there must be air because Vecna is human. Here's
one of the things that I questioned, which was
the Mind Flayer has to eat a certain amount of
chemicals. In fertilizer or rat poison or something
in season three. I forget off the top of my head.
In order to constitute a physical form. Yeah.
Why is it not the opposite? Like, I understood
that Vecna kind of looks crazy and maybe has
constituted a physical form in Dimension X. And
that the kids are being pumped full of those
chemicals. And Will was being pumped full of
those chemicals. So, I guess they're just there
for a light amount of time. Which, again, speaks
to our whole, like, we didn't discover. We didn't,
like, think at all about Dimension X. We're just
there. Yeah, well, and it's the same thing as
how, you know, they go into the Upside Down and
they're all wearing hazmat suits and Hopper's
getting hosed down. And then for the rest of
the show, they're just waltzing in there whenever
they feel like it. Is this stuff safe to breathe?
It's probably fine. It's probably fine. It's
probably fine. My goodness gracious. Yeah. Okay.
Well, speaking of something that both you and
I legitimately loathed. About this episode. Not
just had questions around. Not just felt kind
of strange about. Or hollow about. But actually
genuinely loathed. Was the lack of there being
a Callie twist. Now caveat. There is a Callie
twist. Maybe sort of kind of. In the epilogue.
But we'll get there when we get there. We talked
a lot about. Callie's working for the Mind Flayer.
Callie's working for Vecna. Or something's really
off with Callie. And there wasn't. There was
just nothing. I will say there was even the potential
in the episode for it to be Callie. When Hopper
is seeing visions, 100 % at first thought it
was Callie. That was my thought too. Callie had
turned and I was going, oh, oh, this is so good
because she's just sitting over there in the
other room. Yeah. So she can do something else.
Elle's the one in the tank. She doesn't have
to be in a tank. And I was going, oh, she's messing
with him. This is going to be her. And then Vecna
started talking and I was like. okay, but is
she doing it? And then Vecna is just like piggybacking
on her little illusion. And then it just straight
up wasn't. Yes. Which was probably the most disappointed
I felt through all of Stranger Things. Was that
moment being Vecna. Yes. And it didn't even have,
I thought that the whole hallucination of Hopper
was very well done. Super cool. Super good. I
thought it was very cool. I thought that the
things that he was seeing were very impactful.
I think that Vecna, although it was Vecna, but
he was really pinpointing those things that would
get Hopper to do what he wanted. And he manipulated
him very well. Yeah. It was excellent. Excellent.
From a villain standpoint, like a very good plan.
But what was really bothersome is First of all,
that it just was Vecna. But then also, there
was no payoff of it being Vecna doing this to
Hopper, knowing their previous connection. So
knowing that they went to high school together
and they were in the play together and all the
things that you hear about in the play, there
was no real connection. Like, I think at some
point he calls him Junior. So like, Hopper kind
of can make the connection that, oh, this...
Is I know him. That's the only reference to the
fact that Hopper and Joyce legitimately knew
Vecna. Which, in the play, it's a big deal that
Hopper and Joyce are investigating the Creel
household. That they have information about what
happened in 1959. And instead of exploring...
Any of that. Any of that. We get a little bit
of junior because he's Jim Hopper is Jim Hopper
Jr. His dad was the chief of police and the senior.
And that's it. We got nothing else. And it was
just kind of like, okay, why did I end up watching
this play if none of that information for Joyce
and Hopper were going to turn up? And they also
changed the equipment that goes missing to something
completely different. What's in the briefcase
isn't advanced military stuff. It's just a rock
that has AOL instant messenger to the mind flayer
in it. Find me. Okay. Yeah. It just, it seemed
very odd. And it is something that we were worried
about is that they were going to start retconning
the play. At first, it seemed like they weren't
going to. They had, you know, you're going into
his mind and you see Joyce and you see the flyer
for the play. And then I thought it was pretty
hilarious, Max, walking them back through. Mr.
Wheeler's filling up Mrs. Wheeler in that room
right there. Yeah, in that room right there.
And Hopper's over there, like, smoking or something.
And it was just the rundown of where everybody
was. But we don't have time for that. I thought
that was pretty clever. But then again, it just
had no real payoff of pulling all that information
in. I realized I could have used a whole season,
a little bit more stretch, another episode of
them leading up to this information with the
Abyss and Dimension X and then the Upside Down.
And then I could have used four episodes, if
not a whole other season, of them exploring the
play within the play, Joyce's whole... play and
hopper and everything plus the whole fight and
any twist that they could have put in there i
definitely think the fight needed a full maybe
not a full like two hours just on the fight but
like the lead up and the chase to get to the
big fight and then the fight and then a resolution
i could have used a lot more time sitting with
that and then also I do think it would have been
very interesting if there was an entire episode
dedicated to them going through Henry's memories.
Yeah, certainly. That could have been a cool
penultimate. Yeah, that could have been a very
cool penultimate episode of just like learning
even more about Vecna. And that could have made
the neat little payoff even more of a payoff,
which I think both of us felt pretty good about.
Okay, so it was the mind flare all along. Henry
gets to face that right there and then with Will
explaining like, look, you were just like us.
You were just a kid. And Henry being too far
gone, not even able to think about his – because
I really don't think he's actually saying, oh,
no, it was me and it all along. I really think
there he's justifying to himself. that this was
the right place to be that he's convincing himself
you know inauthentically convincing himself that
it was the mind flayer in him the whole time
and therefore he is irredeemable and therefore
you can actually move forward and kill him i
thought that was a neat little twist on what
everybody's been saying that it's the mind flayer
all along and it was very satisfying to me that
was the one part of the finale yeah that i swung
the opposite way from like callie's weird storyline
right Yeah, I agree. I think it was very interesting
to not have Henry turn on the mind flayer and
to have him continue to make a conscious choice
that nope, this is exactly I agree with this.
This is what's happening now. And I don't even
think that in that moment, he had to like re
justify it to himself. I think he's just like,
no, you know, I've been making these choices.
I've been making these choices. And yeah, maybe
I was a kid, but He made some solid points. So
here we are. And just really accept it. And I
like that it gave him the autonomy in that scene.
Not that he's been a pawn this whole time or
anything. And I think it's definitely refreshing
to see that, especially where almost everything
you're trying to redeem the villain and you're
trying to find, well, you know, there's still
human under there. And this is really like. He
has abandoned his humanity. He has chosen to
side against humanity, and he's fine with that.
Totally. And I think that that's really interesting.
And that reveal, and then showing that, hey,
by the way, this spiky building that he's in
with the heart right above him is the physical
manifest of the Mind Flayer, and here it comes
in this giant corporeal form, is such a fulfilling
moment. And then the fight was so lacking. It
was so empty. Like, even the space that they
were fighting in. was fairly empty and boring.
And so you just sort of have this empty fight
with no real emotional stakes from that moment
forward. And that I think is what left you and
I with that hollow feeling. Yeah. But what didn't
leave us with a hollow feeling was that blog.
Yeah. Which the Duffer Brothers said, we're going
to answer all your questions. And then it came
out later that they're going to have this live
action spinoff that's going to explore a little
bit of like, what the weird pulsating stone with
the direct connection to the mind flayer's mind
is going to be. It's like, oh, okay, so you're
not answering all of our questions. And so the
epilogue doesn't really answer any questions.
It just settles character stories. Right. But
it did that pretty well. I really loved the conformity.
This is a Dune reference for anybody that doesn't
know it. Conformity is the mind killer. It's
basically the Duffer Brothers whole thing, which
is like, Yeah. And Dustin's whole message is
the Duffer Brothers sort of speaking directly
through Dustin to tell you what the theme of
the show is, which is let's all learn that we're
not so different and to mix in with one another
because you might find people that you love.
And I loved that. And it was weirdly first explored
with the whole Troy's serial killer storyline
in season one. And then, of course. When Lucas
talks to Jason and he's like, now I realize being
normal is psychotic. And then we get Dustin's
speech. And I love it. It was great. Yeah, definitely.
I thought that that was really good and a nice
way to get their message across without a lot
of times in shows when they have a specific message
that they're trying to, they kind of hit you
over the head with it over and over and over
again. And I feel like they just kind of sprinkled
it in here and there. And then they wrap it all
up in this. In a form of a speech that does not
sound out of place at a graduation. And I think
that they did a very good job of weaving it into
the story without making it blatantly obvious
that this is what they were going for. And Hellfire
Lives, which was great. Yes. And you saw when
Hellfire Lives was, you know, revealed, a bunch
of people both in the audience and in the crowd
rose up and clapped, which means Dustin is doing
what Eddie asked him to do, is to look after
his sheep. Which I love. I just love it. Yes.
I do. Yeah. That he said he's going to flip off
the principal, snatch that diploma, run off the
stage. And that's exactly what Dustin does. That's
really cool. You and I disagree a little bit
on this one. I really loved what they did with
Nancy, Jonathan, Robin, and Steve. I believe
that they are going to have their monthly dinner.
Because the writers told me so. Are you a real
adult? You know, they made some really big promises
to each other. And I do think if they all stay
on the East Coast that, yeah, they'll be doing
that. No. Okay. Sorry. As someone who has lived
within five hours driving of multiple best friends
for five years now, I've seen one of them twice
and one of them zero times. And we made lots
of promises. You also didn't save the world with
them, though. As far as I know. This is true.
This is very true. But I feel like that would
almost make it worse. I feel like with the fact
that nobody died in like nobody of any real consequence
died in this show, that it is not entirely unrealistic
that in this fictional world, these characters
do all meet together. Yeah. I think it's just,
it's just kind of. Fairly unrealistic that they're
going to monthly meet, despite kids and friends.
Monthly is crazy. Quarterly, maybe. Yeah. Once
a year? Sure. A yearly trip back to Hawkins,
a yearly trip to whichever city. They're just
going to trade off wherever they all are. I can
believe that. But monthly is insane. I did feel
a little bit for Steve when he was like, you
guys really don't miss any of this? The family
video that I worked with you, Robin. Any of the
things that we did together. And they're all
like, no. And I'm like, yeah, I get that. I also,
like, I love Bow, New Hampshire, but I will probably
never move back there. Like, I get it. But I
also was like, no, Steve. Yeah. He's so funny.
He just wants to hang out with them. Yeah. He
just wants to hang out. He likes his little life.
And he's like, what? Everything's great. Why'd
you have to leave? Yeah, for real. There's other
stuff out there? Nah. Nah. Nah. I love what they
did with Joyce and Hopper. Yes. Finally having
that date at Enzo's. But also, Hopper, what took
you so long? Seriously. Another 18 months? First
of all, it's already been 18 months since you
got back from Russia. So you're telling me we're
near three years and you haven't proposed to
Joyce yet? What's been keeping you back? Yeah.
That is absolutely crazy, especially considering
when Hop is posing in the graduation photo with
Will as his dad, basically. That is how you take
graduate. You have your parents on either side.
And that's like the graduation photo for people
who have two parents. That's what it looks like.
You don't have them on the side. You don't have
like the kids in the middle. So it was very like
cliche. This is a graduation photo of the family.
And then so I was like, oh, they're already married.
That made me think that they were already married
is them taking that picture. So the fact that
he hadn't even proposed yet, I was like, wait,
what? Literally because after seeing them take
that picture, I kept looking for a ring. Yeah.
On both of their hands. I was like, no, but I,
then I would get distracted and then I'd forget
to look for the ring. Cause I was focused on
all the other stuff. Yeah. But. Then he proposed
and I go, oh, well, then there's definitely no
ring. I guess there's no ring. For those of you
who have been listening to this podcast, you
know that Bob Newby, a .k .a. Samwise Gamgee,
has a stepsister that is Henry Creel's love interest
in the play. The singing at the end, the singer,
so to speak, is kind of a shout out to Patti
Newby, where Patti Newby is a good singer, but
her mother. Is like a traveling singer. And is
also African American. And so that's a little
bit of a shout out. Right at the end. Although
we never ever see Patty Newby. Which bummed me
out. A lot. But anyways. I thought that was a
little cool. And Enzo's there to have Patty Newby's
shout out. Kind of. Maybe. A little bit. I also
really loved the final scene. And I think. It's
not surprising. But it's satisfying to have them
end on a D &D play session where Max is finally
the Zoomer and has her own special little binder.
And Will has his own binder. And they say their
names on the side. And then they win their campaign
with a little shout out to Elle there. And also
then he does this little Parks and Rec run through
where we get to see that Lucas and Max stay together
forever. We get to see that Dustin goes on to
be super bright. His friendship with Steve is
also maintained. We get to see Will lives a comfortable
life where he's accepted. And we get to see Mike
pursue his dreams of being an author and a storyteller,
just like he's always been, which was really
cool. I really loved all of that. But I really
loved... When Mike is leaving and Holly and Derek
and crew come downstairs and start playing. This
idea that this will never really end and the
stories will go on and play will keep happening.
You know, as an adult who, you know, is doing
this with you, which is a form of play. That
really, that was the one thing that gave me a
little tear jerk. Yeah, I really enjoyed them
running down and I almost half expected. mic
to kind of walk down there and maybe like start
explaining it and then it would kind of like
the sound would fade out as he starts explaining
or something like that kind of like what samwise
gamgee does at the end with his daughter when
he's just like we're finally home and it's just
like it's at least a line from one of the main
characters so i i thought it would be kind of
nice If that were to happen, but I did enjoy
him just kind of watching and going, okay, this
will live on and it's all right. And also, I
think there's just that bit of relief from Mike
that they were able to get Holly home safely.
And she has started making friends that she wouldn't
have had otherwise, like Derek as well, kind
of like Mike had found Elle. They formed these
odd friendships. Dustin and Steve. So Holly did
that too. Lucas and Max. Right. Well, I mean,
so at the end of this, I think the finale is
pretty good for the season. But there were still
many questions that we had. So many questions.
So many questions. So on to our next segment,
questions. Questions that need answering. Now,
I just got a list of questions that... Either
frustrating to me or I'm being pedantic about
or actual questions. First and foremost, Karen
Wheeler's scars disappear. Why? In graduation,
she got big old scars. And then like four hours
later, she's got no scars. Yeah. Continuity error
is a nitpick on that one. I do remember. I think
I missed noticing that when she's calling them
up because. I do remember at the graduation having
a very clear thought of, I'm so glad they left
those. Yeah. And they didn't just write it out
and, oh, she's perfectly fine. Because I think
that it shows her strength. It shows her character
growth. It shows, because she was, just think
about back with all the Billy stuff. It was all
about how she looked. Yeah. And her physical
appearance. And that was a big thing. And so
her wearing these scars proudly, like she has
an open shirt or dress. Yeah, a dress to show
the chest scars too. Exactly. Not just her neck,
but also her chest and really just not shying
away from that. And I thought that was very good.
I thought that was so cool and really did without
telling you. It showed you how much she's changed.
At the same time, I mainly bring this up just
because I think it's indicative of a little problem
that I have with Stranger Things overall, which
is like continuity. There are just a couple of
things that for a show that is based on picking
things apart in order to try and figure things
out, which is part of the fun of a mystery show,
continuity errors like Will Byers' birthday being
March 11th and them being at spring break on
March 11th. Yeah. Not a huge deal like this,
but just a little bothersome. Yeah. Nancy and
Jonathan being up to their knees in the solidifying
goop and then having clean legs. Yeah. Yeah.
Not great. No. Not great at all. So Max graduates
after 18 months in the hospital. Question how?
No. No, indeed. She doesn't. I mean, I had friends
and acquaintances in high school who were in
and out chunks of a semester or two semesters
due to illnesses and things. And they had a really
tough time graduating on time or were not able
to. And straight up missing at least three semesters.
No. My only thought as to how this could happen
is that they have summer school available for
everybody in the class of 1989 because of all
the weird disasters and everything. And we know
Max was a straight -A student before season four,
before Billy died, because the counselor goes
over that with her. So maybe they're throwing
her a bone there a bit. Maybe she took some classes
outside of high school in order to make up stuff,
but... You know, there are ways to do that. What
I'm now realizing is that I really could have
used a small montage, like they've done in seasons
past, of just showing a little bit of, like,
Sam Owens comes through and cleans some stuff
up. And here's what happened with a newspaper
clipping declaring Jim Hopper alive. Or just
a bunch of little things like this to help to
clear up some of these questions. Which I feel
like they could have easily done right when Robin
is doing her radio talk. Yes, definitely. But
we don't get that. And so we have a lot of lingering
questions. We mentioned this already. Why did
Joyce and Hopper never say they know or were
friends with Henry Creel? And how does that not
make it into this? No idea. Just stupid. What
happens to Dr. K? War crimes. Straight to jail.
But do we know? We don't know. We know nothing.
No, we don't know. She probably just went back
to whatever corrupt thing she was doing before
this project. The morbid answer to this one is
they're all dead. But what happens to all the
pregnant women? They're all dead. They're all
dead. They blew up the lab. They did. And Elle's
like, yeah, I knew that there were pregnant women
in there. Yeah, I was going to say, to be fair
to everybody else, only Elle knows this part
of the story. Good on Elle. We know that she's
a killer. Yeah. Goodness gracious. I mean, I
guess they were all dying anyway, if that gives
any tiny bit of... Yeah, but that was because
they were being transfused with blood. All they
needed to do was take those out and then get
them a different blood transfusion. They should
be okay. I mean, does Elle know that, though?
She probably just thinks they're all dying and
this is a mercy kill at this point. One can only
hope. Did the Turnboat family survive being drugged
by Pi? That was a question you brought up in
the first... The Turnboats, yeah. I don't...
I saw this really hilarious TikTok of... Derek
prancing back home knowing he's got the house
to himself because his family's still in the
barn. I mean, ostensibly? Ostensibly. You know,
I realized the other day that the word is ostensibly
and not obstensibly. Ostensibly, yeah. Yeah,
well, turns out I'm an idiot. But ostensibly,
if Vector's threatening to kill his parents and
sister, they are alive, but like... And they're
at home, probably. We've been shown nothing.
Yes. And... They didn't. How did they get home?
How did they get untied? They were still tied
up in a barn last we saw them. They know who
did this to them. And Erica is not in jail. There's
so much more about like, how did anybody escape
any justice? Yes. But we'll get there. We'll
get there. Why is graduation set in the fall?
Like, this is just like that. What is it? Season
two finale, I think? Where it's like, it should
be Christmas time. It's definitely not season
three. It's season two because it should be Christmas
time. It's one month later. It's like December
1st. And it's like brightly spring. And I'm like,
is this the one thing that's real about Hawkins?
This isn't Vector's Curse. It just has the opposite
seasons. It's somehow in the Southern Hemisphere.
Maybe. That's what the Upside Down did, is it
brought the Southern Hemisphere to Hawkins. To
Hawkins. side effect. That's so true, though.
Yeah, I mean, I guess it could go along with
your summer school idea that they're doing summer
school for everybody and so they are graduating.
That whole class kind of just gets pushed back
a couple of, like, a whole semester, maybe. Very
possibly. How does Henry have no scar from the
gunshot wound that he received as a kid? They
shot him in the hand and I was like, is this
memory real? He has no visible scarring. Science.
Magic. I don't know. I think, honestly, I think
that the real reason is because when he makes
the, well, no, never mind. I was going to say
when he makes the transformation to Vecna, then,
you know, he has kind of like healing ability
through the vines and whatnot, but he doesn't
have it even before. Yeah, when he's talking
to El. He doesn't. When he's one slash Henry,
the nice orderly. Orderly. They either A, hadn't
decided they were going to shoot him yet, or
B, he has great healing abilities. How does Nancy
get away with killing multiple soldiers? Now
there are witnesses because when Dr. K shows
up, she's like, what happened? And then a bunch
of people explain. So like, how does she get
away with killing multiple US soldiers? How does
anybody get away with anything in the justice
system? Again, This is simply explained if Dr.
Owens comes in and the whole good side of the
U .S. government fixes the bad side of the U
.S. government. But they don't show it. So how
does that happen, Sierra? So you say no witnesses.
However, there's no witnesses who would be able
to explain without also implicating themselves
in what they've been doing. To Dr. K? Dr. K knows
what they've been doing. I know, but she can't
get them in trouble because she would have to
reveal what she's been doing. Right, because
we've been doing nothing here. We're all good.
We've just been guarding Hawkins, Indiana. It's
fine. There was another crazy accident. They're
going to release a book about how Nancy survives
multiple CIA attempts on her life in Boston once
she works for the Herald. Oh, my gosh. Why are
there no Demogorgons or Demodogs helping in the
final fight in Dimension X? See, this one actually
made perfect sense to me. They're in the upside
down. They're not in Dimension X necessarily.
But when Henry goes to Dimension X, when L banishes
him there, they're crawling all over that Dimension
X. They could have purged them and sent them
all down. I mean, I think once they're in the
upside down, they can't get back up. They certainly
can't fly. We know that. I guess... The demo
bats only existed to kill Eddie and then they
disappeared. So nothing is around to fly. Did
you hear the demo? So when Steve and Dustin are
stabbing above, those are all egg sacks of demo
bats. They made the little demo bat noises when
they started getting stabbed. And I was like,
that's cute, but nothing more than cute. Yeah,
I mean. Speaking of things that can't get up
into Dimension X, I am a thousand percent upset
that we did not see Elle jump. She just appears
and I was like, she literally is like, I'm going
to make that jump. And you're looking at this,
such this cool cinematic floating islands. And
then she's just there. And I was like, what?
I wanted to see the jumping. This is probably
a budget thing, right? That they spent so much
money. animating the entire carnal mind flayer
that we couldn't get Elle going bloop, bloop,
bloop. Yeah. Mario style hitting question blocks
out of the air. Speaking of things that can fit,
how does Derek fit through the hole that Max
barely got through? My idea is that the kids
wake up before he goes through. Oh, okay. That
is how it read to me because it cuts. It cuts
as the kids are going through. Right, that's
true. And as Henry is transfixed by what he's
seeing in the cave. And then the next thing that
we see about the kids is that they're ripping
all of the tubes out. That's true. And waking
them all up. And so I think he just woke up.
Didn't. Before he had to get there. Because he
was last almost in line with Holly. Yeah, that's
true. That's true. How does Hopper get his chief
of police job back after being dead for three
years? He's a nepo baby. Officer Powell would
be so pissed. Officer who? We don't see him.
Yeah, he's - He's gone. He got transferred? But
Powell is not mentioned, I don't think, at all,
right? He gets transferred. His deputy was so
horrible that they both got fired. When the military
came in and took over, they had no need for a
sheriff anymore. Yeah. And so the spot was vacant.
Okay, so this one. Yes, yes, absolutely. Okay,
so this question legitimately makes me almost
as angry as Callie. This whole situation, which
is we've had Will when he's connected to the
hive mind. Every time a hive mind is in pain,
he's also in pain. This is a huge plot point
of season two. How does Will not feel anything
in the hide mine when the Scoobies and the Doobies
and Elle are all killing Vecna and the Mind Flayer?
He conveniently lost service. His walkie -talkie
antenna broke. It's really upsetting. This is
like one of the biggest plot holes in this episode.
Things like this. Oh my gosh. What? What did
they say? Couldn't possibly piece that together.
Sorry, Vecna, you're breaking up. Sorry, I can't.
I'm going through a tunnel. I honestly thought
he was going to die. I thought this was going
to be a big twist that he's connected in the
mind, the hive mind, and that he was just going
to just like everything else. And everyone's
going to be really sad. Especially because he's
not anywhere near the fight. Yeah. And I was
going, okay, it seems kind of odd to just like
leave him in a place where you don't know where
enemies may or may not be. And you leave him
and Joyce, who up until this point, like, has
done - Nothing. A couple of things. She axed
a wall and she figured out a mystery and she
went into scary places. But in terms of actually
fighting things, not so much. Well, that's not
true. She fought a lot in Russia when they're
going through the whole base. Yeah. How much
was she fighting and how much was Hopper and
Enzo and Murray actually doing the fighting?
She's just like not bait. She's in charge of
closing the door. And she half does that and
then half opens it. She means well. Yes, she
does. She's there for emotional support. I gotta
say, I'm pretty overall disappointed with Joyce's
whole storyline in season five. It's akin to
what happened in California for the California
Bros. Like, just benched all season. They could
not figure out something else for her. She showed
so much growth in both season three and four.
But they were like, Nancy's the only girl who
can figure out mysteries now. So it also really
bothered me with Joyce's character that... At
the very beginning, basically, well, this season,
the first four episodes, she's like, no, I still
must protect my baby, Will, and keep him sheltered
from all of the things that are out there. And
then episode five, she's just like, so, Will,
you're going to go straight into Vecna's mind.
We're just going to feed you to him. And you're
going to be fine, right? Really swung that pendulum.
Yeah, she just keeps that attitude the entire
rest of the season. And I'm going, that seems
out of character. Methinks thou did pendulates
too much. Speaking of pendulating people, Dustin
went from zero to 60 to happy to unhappy. And
Susie was caught up in the crossfires, question
mark? I best guess. I think I said it before
in our... first season five episode where he's
just not dusty buns anymore and so i just don't
see suzy being able to stick around with him
or him putting in enough effort yeah yeah well
and i just don't think that he'd put in the effort
to continue to connect with her long distance
relationships are hard Her dad is not a fan.
There was a lot going against them. Also, he
probably doesn't have Cerebro anymore because
the military would have been like, no unauthorized
radio equipment outside of the quarantine. But
you guys can still have your radio tower. Yeah.
Yeah, but the radio tower is only supposed to
reach Hawkins. And somehow is way bigger than
Cerebro. It's fine. All right, that's fine. I
can be down for that. Otherwise, Dustin is cheating
on her at the end of the finale where he's like,
Ooh, this person from season two that I wanted
to dance with now invited me to a party. No,
I don't think so. I think he probably just also
doesn't, yeah, he doesn't have any way to contact
her. And she's living such an insular life that
maybe they reconnect eventually. What happened
to Vicky and Robin? They broke up. Are you saying
that because of the overbearing partner's comment?
Well, it's either that or Robin just really doesn't
like her anymore. I mean, what other there's
nobody else who hasn't who has a partner that
we know of. I think she's speaking to the future
where she's saying we will not let our spouses
in the future stop us from doing this once every
30 days meet up in a five hour drive. Yeah, but
at the same time, why say overbearing partners?
You could just say we won't let. Kids and spouses
and whatever get in the way. But the way that
she specifically says overbearing partners, I'm
like, hmm. Hey, Vicky was actually pretty good
for someone that was being lied to 24 -7. Yeah,
and then suddenly dragged into this horrifying
world. And then arrested by the military as a
candy striper. Okay, continuity error here. Does
the Upside Down have liquid or no? Because...
When Barb is dragged down into the pool in season
one, there is no water. But water tank for Elle
in season five? Am I crazy or did they fill it?
Nope. He opens up for the first time and there
is water. Okay. Sorry to burst your bubble. No,
that's okay. I don't know why I just had this
weird memory of like them pouring something,
but. I'm crazy, apparently. You are crazy. I'm
also crazy because why did the squawk dial change
color? See, that goes into the conspiracy theories.
Yeah. Yeah. So that goes into the conspiracy
theories of not everything is okay. Some of these
things are actually Vecna's imposed image or...
in his mind, things like that. And if we were
getting Dimension X, if we were getting another
season, I would say, wow, all of this is right.
What is created by Vecna? What is eight helping
him do with amplified powers? What is he using
these 12 children for? But we're not. And so
it's just like, it's clearly not a thing. Yeah.
Again, it's one of those really unfortunate continuity
errors where. Unfortunately, they set a precedent
that if something changes color to gray, it means
that it's not real. Because Holly's looking at
the merry -go -round and sees that it should
be yellow or blue or whatever it is, but it's
gray. And so then they know that they can lift
it and go through it. Which doesn't necessarily
mean it has to be gray. It just means that Beckner
got the color wrong. particular thing but it
does it does point to the fact that if the color
is wrong something is happening and i just whatever
uh also so if we're going with this whole 11
plan which we'll we'll actually talk about if
you and i believe this or not but if l does survive
and it's because eight is projecting her eight
has a giant chest wound from a gunshot that she's
bleeding out on In Hawkins Lab. Mm -hmm. Hawkins
Lab is where the C4 charges are. That's the thing
that blows up that then the entire Upside Down
collapses and sucks everything out. So, Eleven's
projection should have vanished right there,
right? There should have been no convenient,
you know, fading away right when everything gets
stormy. Mm -hmm. Yes. The only thing that I can
think of is, one, they... changed part of the
plan and hid her somewhere that would not be
part of the initial blast, knowing that this
was going to be the plan. Or they finally actually
touched on that Eleven can heal people, and she
heals her enough of said gunshot wound that she
can make it far enough away. That I would believe,
because she does heal Max. Yes. But also not
enough to save her. Yeah. Convenient. Yes, indeed.
Contrived, if that's true. So, I mean, it is
difficult, yes, because she should be disappearing
then, not later. Right. There are ways around
it. I think it's a missing scene situation. Certainly.
And because it's not shown at all, it doesn't
make sense. Yeah. Going back to season one. So
one of the main questions that everybody had
that the Duffer Brothers promised will answer
all your questions about Will and the Upside
Down. We know the Upside Down is created the
day that Elle makes contact with the Demogorgon
in Dimension X. So it's frozen to that day. Days
later, Joyce puts up Christmas lights. We know
because of season four with Holly's little play
light thing that you can still sense new lights.
Mm -hmm. In Hawkins and the Upside Down. So the
Christmas lights aren't the problem. How does
Will see the letters painted on the wall? Because
all the physical stuff won't change. Right. He
just goes, A, B, C, D, E, E, F, G, H, I, J, K,
L, M, N. Oh, God, there's the R for R. That means
U has to be, like, is he just guessing? I'm,
maybe. No is the real answer. The real answer
is that they didn't. This is a continuity error
that they created themselves, which is just really
frustrating. Yes. Yes, it is. Why did Vexen need
exactly 12 kids for smashing worlds together?
That's how many numbers are on a clock. Okay,
but so here's the big question. Why is the clock
even a thing? We never really get an answer on
that. He's just really obsessed with clocks.
Really obsessed with time. But there's no satisfying
answer. It just becomes a visual motif. There's
no actual reason behind it. Because they needed
them sitting all around that table as if they
themselves were a clock. And he's one. Mm -hmm.
Dear Lord. See, this is why I thought Will was
12. And then we went back and watched season
four. And Dr. Brennan's like, 17. And I was like,
oh. Yeah. Whatever. Also. Why didn't anybody
ever try to steal one of the military's sound
emitters to use on Vecna? They either didn't
know how to get a hold of them or had no idea
how they were going to get them into Dimension
X. Meh. Yeah, I mean, it would have been a good
plan. Okay, fine. Fine. Okay, conspiracy question,
then we'll get to the really big question. Conspiracy
theory. All the kids, right, the 12 kids, are
actually still infected at the end. And bring
the flayed infection with them. And that's why
everybody believes that they are in happily ever
after, which is a feature of the black thing
in A Wrinkle in Time. A Wrinkle in Time makes
you think you're living your best life. And in
fact, you are not. So do you believe this? Yes
or no? I don't. Yeah, me either. But I think
it's an interesting idea. I don't like the idea
of ending on a, and it was all a dream. Yeah.
And so that would bother me. Continuing the conspiracy
theory, I have seen out there on the interwebs,
there's a conspiracy that there's a secret episode
nine that's going to release on January 7th and
rewrite the end of episode eight and explain
all of these things and how it really hasn't
happened this way. And then redo. I like, I in
general, like a lot of theories. To be put out
there. I think it's really fun for everybody
to comb through. I think it's really stupid to
get bent out of shape when your theory is wrong.
Yeah. But I like theories. This type of theory
is a theory that generates clicks and gets people
who are much younger than you and I very excited
in a way that I think is cruel. It's silly. Yeah.
I just, I saw that and I go, no. No, no. And
now you have my view and now you're getting people's
likes and that's all this is for. I can't stand
it. No. I think that the conspiracy theory in
general is interesting. I don't think it's true,
and I don't want it to be true either. But it
is an interesting theory, especially considering
how many, as we have just gone through, questions
still need answers. Still remain. Still remain.
So there's a possibility. But I think that this
is just it. This is the end. Yeah, me too. Same.
I think this is the end. The biggest question,
of course, is do you believe Sierra? Because
I do not. And, of course, I'm referring to Mike.
No, I actually do. I actually do believe. And
I'll tell you why in a second. But there's this
whole conspiracy theory that Max is like, this
is just a theory, right? About Max explaining
how Eleven survives. So do you believe that Eleven
is alive, yes or no? I do think she's alive.
I don't think that they would have done. That
whole sequence of Mike seeing the speakers, thinking
of the emitters, then piecing it all together,
then telling the whole story to everybody else
about how she survived. I think that that's completely
pointless unless it's true. Yeah. If you're going,
oh, well, he's just trying to put his friends
at ease. They're at ease. They're already at
ease. They've gotten over this. They're already
at ease. He's the only one who's not over. Right.
So. There's no point of him making up this story
and, you know, quote, piecing all of this together
if it's not actually what happened. Now, again,
there are plot holes with it, with the whole
Callie of it all and the timing and all of those
things. But I will say I did have that question
of how is she talking to Mike right now? Precisely.
With all this stuff going on. She's just standing
there. She's completely fine. All the other times
we've seen those things going off. She has been
freaking out and in pain and rolling on the ground,
barely able to move. And she's just standing
there staring and it's fine. So I was going,
it seems weird. The only thing I can think of
is like she was far enough away somehow. Well,
so I was realizing I was talking myself into
reasons because that is absolutely live during
the 10 minute segment that I watched that day.
Yeah. I was like, she should be. This shouldn't
be possible. What is going on? And the one thing
that I thought of is that remember that Murray
and Hopper move out in front of the truck and
then the military vehicles come. And so I thought
she maybe bailed out of the truck early. But
if you go back, you can see her getting out of
the truck and you can see someone while they're
all being pressed up against things moving in
the background into a place that has a tunnel.
Although where that tunnel comes from and how
they knew it was there. I was like, wait, were
we shown that? So I got to go back and do that
on a rewatch. But yeah, I think that she's alive.
I don't know that she's in the exact place that
Mike thinks that she is. And I don't know that
anything happened exactly the way that he spelled
it out. But I do believe in sweeping strokes,
he got it right. So I think that when we see
her and she's hiking and then she finds that
town, I think that's actually flashing to her.
Because... If it was Mike's imagination, there
would have been three waterfalls. There are technically
three. One's real tiny all the way over on the
right. I don't think it counts. But in Mike's
imagination, it would have been flooding. It
would have been literally one, two, three waterfalls.
Because this is his imagination, his perfect
world. When he's thinking of three waterfalls,
he's thinking of one, two, three waterfalls.
No, I totally agree. And so I think that that
is legitimately her. And what I do like about
this is... You know, they have all these things
about how Mike has become this storyteller and
there's all these stories that he'll write, but
there's one that he never will and he can't divulge
it. I do subscribe to the additional call it
a conspiracy, call it a fandom theory, whatever
you want, that at some point he has some sort
of tour for a book. And they find each other
again. That'd be cool. I wondered if she was
going to turn up in like a last sequence with
Mike, but I was grateful that we didn't get that.
I will say this gives Callie a little bit more
reason to be there because up until they're in
Vecna's mind and Callie is hiding the children
from Vecna and therefore exposing all the children
to the fact that Holly is right. Right. She has
had, you could have done that whole scene. The
whole season without her. There wasn't really
a point to her. So that gave her a little bit
of a point. And then this, obviously, it's like,
oh, this is why they brought her back. Which
I thought was good, but I'm still frustrated
overall with the Callie situation. Yes. I think
bringing her back for a plot convenience is very
annoying. Yeah. I think that there was a lot
more that could have been done with her character.
And also, if you're going to bring her back,
I think you have her. have a larger role yeah
and don't give her so such weird direction on
the way like i get that she's been like blood
sucked out of her with these emitters around
her and kept in a way and that she's going to
be different than she was earlier but Boy, everything
was just at a perfect little place for people
to have all these wild theories about her, especially
given her name and the D &D connections and the
Shadowfell references and people talking about
the Raven Queen, all that sort of stuff. So then
there should be like, this is just the direction
given to this actress, which again, I think the
actress does a great job with what she's told
to do. But I think the mistake is the way in
which the story is crafted. Exactly. Yeah, definitely
agree with that. Speaking of, though, actors
who do a lot. Yeah. I would like to have a moment
for Jamie Campbell. Yeah, for real. Because his
facial acting. Yeah, really good. Is incredible.
I'm really glad that they gave him regular human
form acting to do as Beckner, not just as one.
Right. Oh, he really pulled it out. All the sequences
in the cave. Him showing rage and terror and
grief and all of these emotions when he and Will
are kind of having their little battle as well.
I thought he just has such a way with the control
that he has of his face and his expressions and
his eyes and then just the timber of his voice
as well. Very, very wonderful. I think he definitely
won in terms of just general acting. He's so
good. He's just – he's phenomenal. It felt the
same way about Montgomery, Billy's actor, just
in terms of – and Joseph Quinn, obviously, with
Eddie. And Jamie Campbell Bower is already a
well -established actor, much more so than Montgomery
or Quinn. But still, just I feel like came out
of this going – Yes. man, do I enjoy his whole
deal. I thought he was just perfect. And I really,
I was already not, you know, a big fan of Vecna's
Grinch design in season four. And then they were
like Groot's design for Vecna in season five.
And I was just grateful to get some, some Mr.
What's it regular, like Henry Creel looking stuff
so that we could see him act. Cause, oh man,
it was great. It was really great. And I felt
like gave a lot more emphasis. To the Vecna parts,
because now I can imagine what this actor would
be like. Right. Yeah, definitely. And I thought
that also on top of everything, there's so much
information that always comes out and all their
behind -the -scenes footage and whatnot. Getting
to see him in studio do the voice changes from
Henry to Vecna, amazing. So good. And incredible.
First, when you first see Vecna, you go, oh,
yeah, I mean, they can voice modulate that. You
know, they can put it through whatever. No, that's
just him. No, it's not. And it's really impressive
given like his role in Sweeney Todd where he's
a tenor. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Phenomenal. His vocal
range is Freddie Mercury -esque. It's absolutely
incredible. And for those of you who are 12,
Freddie Mercury was a four octave singer in a
band called Queen. Speaking of MVPs. Yes. Let's,
for the final time, for Stranger Things. Yes.
Man, our first season coming to an end on this
episode. So crazy. For the final time, let us
dust off that card deck and get ready to shuffle.
It's our Joker category for who is the MVP of
this episode. I had an honorable mention for
Mike just because his... His putting things together
about Elle and his wrap up is really good for
the show. But I think in terms of the storyline,
it is Nancy because she is bait and survives
being bait. And that does a huge amount of allowing
everybody else to get up to the cliff sides and
throw fire at everybody, which I think is the
most important bit. But you have somebody else.
I do have somebody else because I just feel like
at that point, Nancy saying, yeah, it's just
going to be me. And then stomping off was basically
just Rambo. She just, well, yeah, but also it
just doesn't seem like she really has a will
to live anymore. She's like, Oh really? That
is not how I interpreted that. See, I interpreted
it as just like, well, I might as well just like
go for it because. I'm awesome. And also, like,
if I die, oh, well. Just have that vibe to me.
I'm the one with the biggest gun. I'm the one
who can handle this. And I'm the most daring
out of everybody. And we need to make a decision
now. And she's the only one with the nerve to
do that. Yeah. I don't know. It just didn't win
MVP for me. For me, it was difficult to pick
somebody. I went with Holly, though. Because
Max and Eleven and Callie. all disappear. And
it is up to her to lead all of the kids and get
them in the cave. And she goes back for Derek
and doesn't let him get caught and is ushering
everybody and encouraging everybody and telling
them when they get in the cave. Anything you
see in here, it's not real. You just keep moving.
Don't watch it. And she is being the shepherd
and guiding people. And she is taking on that
leadership role. And she gets all of the kids
all the way through. She stands up. She has that
moment with the fire poker. And she's standing
up to Henry. And she's finding her nerve where
she didn't have her nerve before. She's coming
into her, you know, cleric moment. All of these
are true. And at the same time, the kids are
saved because of the fight outside. Yeah. And
the tubes get pulled out because of the people
outside. So she ultimately, kind of like with
Eddie, it's like, yeah, but who does this actually
save in the end? She saves D &D. Okay, if we're
doing epilogue, then Dustin wins for his speech.
I still think if we're just doing epilogue, then
Mike would still win. Probably. Yeah. Yeah, I
think it's Nancy's, you know, distraction. Her
putting her life on the line allows for everyone
to position themselves up on the cliffs without
those positionings and also giving Mike the flare
guns, which go very well with Lucas's water balloon
gas things that we have no explanation as to
what he has, but he has them. All of that, you
know, the flamethrower, all of that jazz that
Jonathan has, they go up, and without that plan
of drawing them into the cave, or not to the
cave, to drawing the mind flayer towards the
cliffs where everybody can bomb it, L doesn't
win. Mm -hmm. The mind flayer doesn't die. The
abyss collides, and everybody dies. Yeah. And
I can't give it to L, mainly because it was just
boring. Yeah. Well, but that's why I feel like
giving it to somebody for that fight in general,
I just can't do it. So then it's either that
or it's the epilogue. In which case, I think
Mike wins. That's crazy. You're probably right.
I think Mike wins. If we can't settle on somebody
for the fight. Okay, and even if you don't want
to do the fight, but you don't necessarily want
to do the epilogue, there's him talking to Elle
and that whole scene of him like, Not wanting
to let her go, but kind of understanding, but
not understanding. And then him piecing everything
together that happens in that scene. And he had
to be paying attention to that situation. Although
I will say, the fact that it took him 18 months
to figure out because of speaker feedback. Was
that the only time a speaker feedback has happened,
Mike? I mean, maybe. How often are you around
speakers? He's in the AV club. He's probably
around it all the time. What, bigger, like, standing
speakers? Also, how many times have I around
speakers? We do podcasting together. No, okay,
I meant the colloquial you. I mean, probably
a lot. You're around a lot of microphones. Yeah,
the 80s didn't have earbuds. So, earbuds. As
in the dog? No. I mean, it didn't have that either.
They didn't have AirPods. The 80s did not have
AirPods, so there's a lot more microphone stuff
happening all the time, I'm sure. Anyways, this
is crazy. We should probably give it to Mike.
Yes. Because there's also a theory that when
she, when Elle is talking to Mike, she somehow
makes it so that he won't remember until later.
I hate that. Enough time will have passed. And
I don't like that at all. I hate that so much.
And it doesn't make any sense. That's like...
But there is a theory. That's like Guardians
of the Galaxy 2 when he's like, yeah, I put that
tumor in your mother's head. And it's like, oh,
you did? Well, that sucks. Yeah. That's how I
feel about Mike getting a memory blocker. No.
But I think it's Mike. Yeah. Okay, that's...
I don't know if that feels great. Honestly, none
of them feel great. Is it Vecna somehow? No,
it's not. It's just Jamie Campbell Bauer. Jamie
Campbell Bauer. Oh my gosh. I can't think of
anybody else that it should go to. I mean, doesn't
it have that awesome speech? Yeah, but again,
we almost always give it to somebody with story
implications. Yeah, and Mike has the biggest
story implication, which is where has Elle gone?
And he's the one that figures that. All right,
it's Mike. Mike, your first win in the finale.
Of the series. You're the main character, ostensibly,
by the Duffer Brothers. You and Will. Yeah. Okay.
And it took until the final season for both of
them to get a win. Yeah, for real. For, you know,
this has always been about Will. This has always
been about Will. And Mike is the main character.
He's the leader. He is? He's the heart. Wow.
He's the main storyteller. Oh. Now we understand.
Because he did the storytelling thing. Now we
know. I do have an additional question for you,
Sierra, as this is our last Stranger Things episode.
Until the cartoon comes out. And I'm sure we'll
talk about that as a bit of nostalgia for our
first season. But who is the MVP of the whole
television show? I shouldn't call it television.
It's not on television. Of this show via the
Netflix. That is such a good question. Do you
want me to throw some options at you? Well, I
was going to say, if we're doing it by MVP wins,
then it's Dustin. Because he's the only one who
has won more than one time. Which I am 100 %
good to just call it there. I mean, I think we
might just have to say Dustin. It could also
be Steve. Yeah. Definitely fan favorite. Yeah.
If you're talking about, you know, things that
he has been able to accomplish. But not the most
actionable. With his character. And Dustin is
the one who gives them all of the scientific
information that they need to know in order to
destroy Dimension X. Right. Nancy, however, is
the person that action -wise does a lot of that.
Especially because Hopper's kind of benched in
this last episode. In terms of being the Rambo
character, because they couldn't really have
two. So they have caring parent Hopper and then
caring parent the light version with Joyce. Yeah.
Yeah, I feel like Nance, you could also say Lucas,
but he wasn't as present in these last four episodes
of season five. True. I mean, he rescues Max,
but that clearly is not the main story. It's
the side story. And so I think either Dustin
or Nancy are the most impactful. Pound for pound.
You still could convince me we could give it
to Mr. Clark overall, though. He's always, he
is always a good pound for pound argument. He
really is. But I think if we're not going to
give it to Billy, who I like, I'm weirdly tempted
to give it to Billy. I think it has to go to
Dustin or Steve. And I have a slight edge towards,
not Dustin or Steve. If we're not giving it to
Billy, I have an, I think it's either Nancy for
the action. Of the plans. Or Dustin for the brains
of the plans. I think I would go Dustin. I think
the tiebreaker there being just like two MVP
wins for Dustin is what does it. Is that it?
We're going to call it? I think so. Dustin, congratulations.
Dustin Henderson. You have won the MVP of Fandom
Shmandum for the first series ever. Well done.
And now it's time for a new segment. Statlers
and Waldorf's Who's That Muppet? So to explain
a little bit, Sierra and I, when we finish up
with a season, you know, whether it be Stranger
Things or whatever is next in our future, we
will be casting Muppets as if they were redoing
this show. Now. Mainly I am the driving force
on this one, Sierra, because you have, as you
say, very little background with Muppets. Yes,
I have very little experience watching Muppets
and knowing Muppet things. So your homework between
now and season two is to watch more Muppet things
so that you know these Muppets. Now you know
them enough to comment on them and you know enough
for me to tell you who they are. Yes. So here
we go. Mike, controversially, cast as Pepe the
King Prawn. Because... Clearly not season five,
Mike. No, not season five, Mike. This is season
one when Mrs. Wheeler calls down and says, Mike,
you were supposed to be done with that hours
ago. And he's like... That's Pepe the King Prawn
for sure. Will is Robin the Frog, which if you've
ever seen Muppets Christmas Carol, he's Tiny
Tim. Okay. And I think that is perfect. For those
of you who are Muppets lovers, I hate Scooter
with a burning passion. So that's why Will isn't
Scooter. Okay, moving forward. Dustin is Gonzo,
which I think is a perfect cast. I love it. No
notes. Excellent. No notes. And Lucas is Rizzo,
which I also think is a perfect cast. Especially
hilarious, though, because Sadie Sink stays.
And so she has to end up with Rizzo the rat.
Now. You're going to find that a lot of female
actresses are themselves. Because there are problematically
very little female Muppets. Now, I have Mrs.
Wheeler as Miss Piggy. And I'm going to explain
that in a second. I do not have Miss Piggy as
Winona Ryder. And I do have Hopper as Kermit.
So you might be standing there going, what? But
Kermit and Miss Piggy. Aren't they always a couple?
Yes, from everything that I've seen. However,
and listen, there's a lot to love about Miss
Piggy playing Winona Ryder's character, Joyce,
which I've just now learned, apparently, in season
one with her being like, my son! And like all
of these high action moments. However, I will
point you to the end of season two for Mrs. Wheeler.
When she's in the bath and Miss Piggy is reading
this romance novel and who rings at her door
but Billy. And I'm keeping Montgomery as Billy.
So just the hilarity of that scene alone is why
I have Miss Piggy as Mrs. Wheeler. Oh my gosh.
Do you agree? Yes? Hilarity would ensue? Hilarity
would indeed ensue. Great. Good. Excellent. Who
is Mr. Wheeler? Mr. Wheeler is himself. That
makes it even better. Yeah, right? Oh, excellent,
excellent, excellent. Okay, so, you know, Winona
Ryder stays. Hopper is Kermit. Jonathan is Fozzie
Bear, which I just think is terrible, but also
very cringe funny. For Fozzie Bear is cringe
funny. You just imagine in season one, Fozzie
Bear's just taking pictures of Nancy. Nice. Which
I have Joe Keery. Joe Keery. Joe Keery, who's
Steve, and Natalia Dyer, who's Nancy Stang in
their roles. Joe Keery is a Muppet, so he gets
to stay. And Natalia Dyer, I think, bringing
that seriousness of being the gun -wielding Rambo
of season five with a bunch of Muppets tickles
my gizzard for sure. Probably Ferguson, who's
Erica, gets to stay because I feel like all the
Muppets would cower around her and that's funny
to me. Vecna is Uncle Deadly, which I'm going
to let you Google Uncle Deadly right now. Because
you don't know who he is. No, I do not. Which
nobody does, but he's a wonderful Muppet. And
he's sort of this, like, sneer Alan Rickman type.
Uh -huh. Excellent. Maya Hawk stays as Robin.
The Mind Flayer I have is a giant animal. Just,
like, not a giant animal. Like, Animal the Muppet.
He's just enormous. I'm not just changing the
Mind Flayer into, like, any animal that you can
think of that's big. It's just a blue whale.
No, Animal the Muppet. Got it. I have Brett Gelman
as Murray, staying as... I have Mr. Clark as
Beaker, which I think is really funny. The idea
of me, me, me, me, me, me, me. Just during science
class and everyone's like, yeah, yeah, I got
it. Or the scene where he's explaining the portal
and just being like, me! And puncturing the paper
with the pencil. It's a great cast. No notes.
That would be really good. Sean Astin, of course,
stays as Bob. Dr. Owens I have as Dr. Bunsen.
Beaker's partner. Because, of course. I have
Officer Powell as Clifford, which is a not as
well -known Muppet, but he's in Muppets in Space.
I have Officer Callahan as Clueless Morgan, who's
the goat in Muppets Treasure Island. Okay. He's
a goat. He's funny. You should rewatch Muppets
Treasure Island. I have Holly as Bean Bunny,
which is the caroling little bunny rabbit who
gets a wreath thrown at him by Scrooge. In A
Christmas Carol. Oh, yes, yes, yes. I have Dr.
Montgomery staying as Billy, as previously mentioned.
I have Yuri as Stratler and Enzo as Waldorf,
the old men who heckle all the time. I just think
it'd be really funny if they showed up only for
season four as these Russians. That would be
pretty funny. But they'd constantly make fun
of the USSR from like a fourth wall perspective.
I love it. I have Alec Utkoff, who's Alexei,
staying as himself. Joseph Quinn, another Muppet,
who plays Eddie, staying as himself. Chrissy,
I have being played by Aunt Sue, who's like related
to Miss Piggy. So it's just like a pig that gets
fecned, which I thought was funny. Okay. I've
got Shannon Purser as Barb staying. Although
I really thought about casting her as Janice,
who's in the Animals band. She's like this total
druggie hippie person. And I thought it'd be
funny to have her in sheer terror. But whatever.
And then I have Derek as Bobo the Bear, who's
this buffoon character from Muppets in Space.
And there you have it. I love it. By the way,
all Demogorgons are Sweetums. Come on, Sierra,
look up with Sweetums as you'll know them immediately.
Oh, God. The hilarity of the name being Sweetum.
And now, because I've said this on a recording,
Sierra will make sure to create a social media
post putting all the character of the Muppets
up with who they are. No. That took me so long
before when we did casting stuff. Yes. Oh my
gosh. Yes. Today's public service announcement.
Friends don't lie. Oh, yes. Oh, of course. Amazing.
That's fabulous. Yes. Well done, Sierra. No notes.
Chef's kiss. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you, dear listener schmissners, for listening
to this episode of Fandom Schmandom. If you'd
like to discuss this episode or any other episode
we've done, please hit us up on our social media
channels. You can find us on TikTok and Instagram
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shmandum. Please don't forget to rate and review
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-minded shmissioners out there. With that, we're
out, y 'all. Don't forget to tip your DMs. They'll
make your epilogue sound good. I will take whatever
tip that you'd like to give me, your DM. And
fare thee well, y 'all. Here's your tip. Bye.
Thanks, y 'all, for listening to this season.
We've really enjoyed having you along with us.
Please give us a like and subscribe. Tell your
friends about us. We want to keep the podcast
rolling as much as possible. And we've really,
really enjoyed creating this season. of Stranger
Things, Fandom Shmandam. Thank you very much.
See you next season. See you next season. All
right, bye y 'all. Fandom Shmandam was created
by Sam Williams and Ciara Obermark. The show
is produced by Aurelia Lieb. The editor is Brittany
Fisher. The music is by Jeremiah Alves. What
is it called? Not a shoot -off. An off -shoot.
No. Spin -off. There we go. Here we go, Britt.
Maybe she took online classes to make it up.
There are ways, but it's like... What I realized
that I could have used is that, you know, at
a lot of the end of... What did I say? You said
online classes. Let me redo that. I lost my whole
train of thought. Hold on. In California, she
ended up... Sorry, Britt. I'm sorry. Lost my...
My sorry was because I just did a giant suck
on a straw and it really is on my audio file.
Well, at least this bird's getting cut out for
you. The whole blooper is just... Oh, yeah. Pepsi's
great. This podcast not sponsored by Pepsi. This
podcast is sponsored by the fact that I can never
find the Diet Coke stream soda mix. And that
they only ever have Diet Pepsi available. So
I have to have that. When I make my sodas at
home. I am now looking at the actual episode.
So play, I don't know, elevator music. I don't
know. Is that copywritten music? It's in like
every elevator everywhere. And so that would
bother me. And now it's time for a new segment.
No, I'm going to do that bigger. I just don't
want to blow out the mic. Sorry, there's like
weird noises. Hold on. I think it's just a cat,
but I don't know what they're doing. Don't get
murdered. Don't get eaten. Don't be dead. I don't
want to do this with anyone else. Well, I would
probably stew. RIP Sierra, moving on to a new
partner. Sierra just goes, rude, because she
can hear me in her headphones. I'm just kidding.
You're my one and only Sierra, except for the
fact that I'm married. And you're married too.
You're my one and only podcast partner. Okay.
Well, I walked out there and a cat immediately
approached me and went. So it's barely that cat.
So it was that cat. Okay. Seriously. I'm sorry.
This cat is doing something and it's like right
against this wall. Dear listeners. Sierra's cat
is currently transforming into a demo dog. We
will have to find. Live auditions for Sierra's
partner. You must first have gone to college
with me. Second, have been my best friend for
the last... How long have we known each other?
15 years. 16 years, almost. Cool. And your name
has to be Sierra, and your maiden name has to
be Powell. Yeah. It's gonna be real tough. Hi.
Chonk monster. You're like the size of Dart.
She is LeChonk. LeChonk. LeChunk, we are so close
to being done. Just let your mother podcast.
No. Do not come further into the room, please.
Do not into this dark night. Hello, Chunk. This
is the smaller one. Hi, smaller Chunk. I banish
the smaller Chunk to the hells of the pits. The
smaller one is waiting for me to go to bed because
she sleeps on top of me. Excellent. Just have
that voiceover. Just the clapping. Amazing. Fabulous
clapping. Just incredible. I don't know why I
went French suddenly. I don't know.